1 00:00:17,399 --> 00:00:21,519 We're back with another edition of the Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emily Dashenski, 2 00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:24,800 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:28,960 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on x at fdr LST, 4 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:32,719 make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts, and of course to 5 00:00:32,759 --> 00:00:38,119 the premium version of the Federalist dot com as well. Today's podcast is a 6 00:00:38,119 --> 00:00:43,920 special one. I was actually at an American Compass Media symposium last week at 7 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:47,039 the National Press Club. I was super interesting. I was on a panel 8 00:00:47,039 --> 00:00:51,759 with David Leonard of the New York Times and the Washington bureo chief of The 9 00:00:51,799 --> 00:00:57,960 Economist as well. As We're talking about how the media can better represent, 10 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:07,640 or better reflect or better the various sort of needs the everyday lives of people 11 00:01:07,799 --> 00:01:12,719 outside of the belt weigh and particularly the working class. So of course that's 12 00:01:12,879 --> 00:01:18,959 fascinating to hear from The Economist and the New York Times about how they see 13 00:01:19,000 --> 00:01:22,840 that problem. David Leonhardt is one of the people at the New York Times 14 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:27,239 that was sort of pushing their coverage in a somewhat better direction on COVID, 15 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:32,359 taking a little bit of a risk there on their COVID coverage, their school 16 00:01:32,359 --> 00:01:37,239 lockdown coverage that was more in tune with the rest of the country arguably then 17 00:01:37,519 --> 00:01:41,120 the kind of the New York City bubble, and he was very kind. 18 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:47,319 Economists was very kind. It was quite an interesting event overall. You know, 19 00:01:47,359 --> 00:01:53,200 my take is basically that until these sort of class biases are really reckoned 20 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:59,280 with, there are going to be gaping blind spots in any media coverage period 21 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,239 ticularly from places like The New York Times. And I think this is you 22 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:08,080 know, their biggest problem is they don't concede their biases. They still truly 23 00:02:08,159 --> 00:02:15,000 believe to their core on their news side that what they're doing is the sort 24 00:02:15,000 --> 00:02:21,639 of aspirational neutrality that mass media had for a really long time. That you 25 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,000 know, you're the example that I always use, and listeners here have heard 26 00:02:24,039 --> 00:02:29,159 in a million times of Johnny Carson and Stephen Colbert. If you apply that 27 00:02:29,159 --> 00:02:32,520 to the news media. Johnny Carson was not a political He was, you 28 00:02:32,560 --> 00:02:37,919 know, sort of he made plenty of political jokes, but he was the 29 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,400 top rated host in late night. He had to appeal to everyone because there 30 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:46,280 was few there were fewer choices, and so advertising dollars went to the person 31 00:02:46,319 --> 00:02:50,719 who could draw the most eyeballs. And you know, you look at Stephen 32 00:02:50,759 --> 00:02:54,759 Colbert, he's so political, he's barely funny. And yet he was for 33 00:02:54,800 --> 00:02:59,759 a while during the Trump administration, the top rated host in late night TV. 34 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:02,439 But with a much smaller section of the public. You can apply that 35 00:03:02,479 --> 00:03:06,599 to the news media. So if The New York Times just kind of admitted 36 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:12,000 that it was for affluent Adam Rubinstein is out in the Atlantic with some reflections 37 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,639 on what happened with Tom Cotton's at ed in twenty twenty. He is one 38 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:20,039 of the right of center people on the opinion desk at the time. And 39 00:03:20,080 --> 00:03:22,719 I knew Adam a little bit when he worked at the Weekly Standard because they 40 00:03:22,879 --> 00:03:25,800 shared an office with the Washington Examiner, a really interesting guy. The Atlantic 41 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,520 piece, he's talking about how they were doing icebreakers and his question was what 42 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:36,639 his favorite sandwich was, and he said Chick fil A, And a human 43 00:03:36,639 --> 00:03:42,520 resources person was not happy about that because he said that his favorite sandwich was 44 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:46,560 a spicy chicken sandwich from Chick fil A. So again, the New York 45 00:03:46,599 --> 00:03:51,000 Times as evidenced by the whole Tom Cotton debacle that you can read more about 46 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:55,159 in Adam's New Atlantic piece, and James Bennett, who was basically forced out 47 00:03:55,199 --> 00:03:59,159 after that he was the head of the opinion desk, has written a long, 48 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,000 long piece in The Economist about this as well. They did that because 49 00:04:03,039 --> 00:04:06,680 they are now subservient to a tiny slice of the public, which is their 50 00:04:06,719 --> 00:04:12,439 subscriber base. They have a pretty robust subscriber base of affluent, educated people 51 00:04:12,479 --> 00:04:15,680 who have the will and the money to subscribe to The New York Times, 52 00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:19,560 and they don't want to see op eds from Tom Cotton, not even you 53 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:24,720 know, sort of mainstream conservative arguments, as was the case with his peace 54 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:27,079 I don't even know that you could call that a conservative argument. At the 55 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:31,399 time, it was polling pretty well with the country in general. So you 56 00:04:31,399 --> 00:04:35,160 know, if the New York Times kind of reckoned with that, understood that, 57 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,800 you know, they were fully responsive now to a small slice of the 58 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:46,279 public that their aspirational neutrality is impossible because the vast majority of their journalists have 59 00:04:46,399 --> 00:04:51,759 these sort of outward biases when it comes to trans identity, black lives matter, 60 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:57,519 Donald Trump, faith, all of those different things, marriage, abortion 61 00:04:58,759 --> 00:05:01,680 that you know, are not allowing them to even aspire to neutrality anymore. 62 00:05:01,800 --> 00:05:06,319 Great you know that we could start talking about all of their errors and how 63 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:10,680 some of their blind spots are leading to errors. But if we could at 64 00:05:10,759 --> 00:05:17,839 least dispense with the lie that there's any sort of ability on behalf of these 65 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:24,600 journalists at the Post, the Times, places like The Atlantic to come down 66 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,920 with a neutral perspective. I guess maybe The Atlantic isn't the best example of 67 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:30,279 that. SID never really purported to be neutral, but the Times, the 68 00:05:30,399 --> 00:05:36,600 Washington Post, ABC, NBC, CNN, they're sort of lie to the 69 00:05:36,600 --> 00:05:42,560 public that they are aspiring towards neutrality, when in fact they're openly embracing all 70 00:05:42,639 --> 00:05:46,600 kinds of very specific positions. I think dispensing with that lie would at least 71 00:05:46,639 --> 00:05:53,399 be helpful, because then, you know, it wouldn't be you wouldn't have 72 00:05:54,079 --> 00:06:00,000 as much weight to Paul Krugman writing about how everyone's fine economically or whatever else, 73 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:04,079 and we could just sort of have a serious conversation about where we're coming 74 00:06:04,079 --> 00:06:08,439 from, and that will lead to truth. It will lead to better coverage, 75 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,079 and you know, people need to be hired from different backgrounds and all 76 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:15,560 of that. This is a tangent, but some reflections on the conversation that 77 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:20,560 we had at the Media Symposium with American Compass, which was just a really, 78 00:06:20,600 --> 00:06:27,360 really fascinating discussion, And on the sidelines of the symposium, I had 79 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:30,319 the opportunity to chat with Johnny Burka, who's the president of the Intercollegiate Studies 80 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:32,759 Institute and doing a lot of good work over there. He also is out 81 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:38,279 with a new book on statesmanship. So Johnny and I were supposed to do 82 00:06:38,319 --> 00:06:41,399 a podcast later in the day, but we were both in the same place, 83 00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:44,279 so I just sort of had the opportunity to pull him aside on the 84 00:06:44,319 --> 00:06:46,360 sidelines of the symposium, right in the middle of the National Press Club, 85 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:49,839 with all the hustle in the hustle and bustle of the Beltway. If you're 86 00:06:49,839 --> 00:06:53,519 not based in DC or don't spend a lot of time here, it's just 87 00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:58,000 a couple of blocks from the White House. It's a cool spot, and 88 00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:00,439 we had the opportunity just to kind of We found a table in the hallway 89 00:07:00,519 --> 00:07:05,480 and we talked a little bit about statesmanship, the history of statesmanship, how 90 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:13,399 Christianity, the concept of sort of Christian ethics, how that altered the sort 91 00:07:13,439 --> 00:07:18,879 of Greek outlooks on statesmanship, how Machia Valley came along how Churchill saw statesmanship. 92 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:24,680 Super interesting conversation, especially because you know, when I look back on 93 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,920 the immigration deal of a couple of weeks ago, it just it really is 94 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:34,759 shocking how little statesmanship is involved in some of these negotiations, how little statesmanship 95 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:41,639 you see true statesmanship on the left and the right. I even asked Johnny 96 00:07:41,639 --> 00:07:46,680 what he thought about Donald Trump on Twitter. You can a statesman be a 97 00:07:46,680 --> 00:07:51,600 sort of a boomer tweeter. So we go through all of these random questions 98 00:07:51,600 --> 00:07:55,240 that I have, but also I found the history to be really interesting, 99 00:07:55,319 --> 00:07:58,759 and I just wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, the 100 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:03,399 symposium, the conversation with Johnny, and thank everyone, as always for listening 101 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:07,959 to Federal Stradio Hour. We appreciate it immensely and mensely immensely. I'm so 102 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:11,720 grateful, So thank you for listening. And I really hope you enjoyed this 103 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:20,360 conversation with Johnny Burka. Johnny, you graduated from Hillsdale, right, that's 104 00:08:20,439 --> 00:08:24,160 right, class of twenty twelve, Class of twenty twelve. Okay, I 105 00:08:24,199 --> 00:08:26,959 won't call you old, but that makes you old, Johnny. So tell 106 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:30,040 us just a little bit about I think this is your first time on Federal 107 00:08:30,079 --> 00:08:33,240 aust radio hour. That's right somehow, But tell us a little bit about 108 00:08:33,279 --> 00:08:37,200 your background and how you ended up running ISI. Basically, yeah, absolutely, 109 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:41,559 So. I grew up in rural south central Michigan, went to local 110 00:08:41,639 --> 00:08:46,519 public schools, had the experience of what we were talking about earlier today of 111 00:08:46,159 --> 00:08:50,440 living in the rust belt. And my dad actually worked in the auto industry 112 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,360 and had the ups and downs of that industry contracting in light of the China 113 00:08:54,440 --> 00:08:56,840 shock. Then he ended up starting a winery and a micro brewery. So 114 00:08:56,879 --> 00:09:03,080 I grew up with a lot of hands on entrepreneurial experience working for my parents. 115 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,360 Ended up going to Hillsdale College and that really changed the trajectory of my 116 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,840 life. Studied under Larry arn My senior year in particular, I took a 117 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,639 class on Aristotle and one on C. S. Lewis that he was teaching. 118 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:18,919 And it was really at Hillsdale that I fell in love with this tradition 119 00:09:20,039 --> 00:09:24,000 of the mirrors for Princes, which we'll talk more about, which is classic 120 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:28,799 texts offering leadership advice for statesmen. So that kind of set the course of 121 00:09:28,840 --> 00:09:33,000 my intellectual trajectory. But I went on to seminary because I thought I wanted 122 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:37,279 to be a pastor, ended up becoming Eastern Orthodox, decided not to go 123 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,039 to seminary, and then got back involved in the world of politics. Worked 124 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:46,320 for ISI for two years as a fundraiser, then came to DC for four 125 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,519 years where I ran the American Conservative magazine, and then ISI came knocking on 126 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:52,639 my door, and so three and a half years ago I went back there 127 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,879 as president. Is an incredible trajectory, and actually on that point talked to 128 00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:01,480 us a little bit about this laneanguage that you speak and that doctor Arne speaks. 129 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:07,840 It would have been common to people who had basically been educated, and 130 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,440 not everybody was educated, you know, decades ago, let's say, five, 131 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:13,720 six, seven, decades ago, a lot of people would have understood 132 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,159 what you're talking about when you're talking about the like the mirrors of the princes, 133 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,120 when you're talking about actually the subject of this book. Frankly, that 134 00:10:22,159 --> 00:10:26,679 would have been a sort of common parlance. Now it's really reserved for a 135 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:33,039 sliver of the public. Let's start with just asking how you personally got interested 136 00:10:33,039 --> 00:10:35,200 in it. Was it Hillsdale. It was it Hillsdale that I was first 137 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:43,679 introduced to the work of Thomas Moore and Erasmus. Erasmus wrote The Education of 138 00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:48,080 a Christian Prince, which is a gift that he presented to the young Prince 139 00:10:48,159 --> 00:10:52,360 Charles, who had become Charles the fifth of the Holy Roman Empire. And 140 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:56,399 Thomas Moore wrote a book Utopia, and he of course was an advisor for 141 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,960 Henry the eighth. So it was there that I really discovered this tree, 142 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,279 and the reason that I fell in love with it kind of gets precisely at 143 00:11:03,279 --> 00:11:07,000 what you were what you were asking is today in America if you say mirrors 144 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:09,919 for princes, or even if you mentioned Thomas Moore, Erasmus or Xenophon, 145 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:16,559 most people's eyes would glaze over. But this whole tradition actually existed to bridge 146 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,759 the world of philosophy and political theory with the world of action, because these 147 00:11:22,759 --> 00:11:26,720 were attacks that were not presented to philosophers. They were given to statesmen, 148 00:11:26,799 --> 00:11:31,519 to kings, to queens, to people serving in a public capacity who were 149 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,720 very busy, very ambitious, had many other cares and oftentimes didn't really care 150 00:11:35,759 --> 00:11:39,840 about philosophy, didn't care about living the good life. And so these were 151 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:43,679 written in such a way that it would also appeal to their own self interest 152 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:48,320 in terms of their political leadership and what they wanted to accomplish. And it 153 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,600 was a way for an advisor or for an educator to say, hey, 154 00:11:50,639 --> 00:11:54,360 you know, pick me. I'm here to offer my services, and also 155 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,200 here to remind you that you may be in charge as a king or queen 156 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:01,519 or political leader, but ultimate one day you're going to have to give an 157 00:12:01,519 --> 00:12:05,279 account to your actions, and so you better pay attention to your conscience to 158 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:09,039 while you're governing. So let me have fun with the devil's advocate question here. 159 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:11,519 And it's one that you deal with a lot, and I know this, 160 00:12:11,720 --> 00:12:15,559 but it's basically the hey, hey ho ho, Western Civice got to 161 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:22,639 go argument? Why are we better off for having studied Xenophone or now church 162 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:30,879 Hall? Sure? Why is it that centering these thinkers who have been centered 163 00:12:30,879 --> 00:12:35,399 for so long to use the sort of vernacular, Why is it that's essential 164 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:41,039 really to crafting statesmen, crafting leaders? And let me tag on to that 165 00:12:41,159 --> 00:12:45,840 question. Does it speak to the lack of true statesmen that we have right 166 00:12:45,879 --> 00:12:50,080 now that this sort of fell out of fashion? Absolutely so interestingly enough, 167 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:54,759 you know, one of the problems that I hope to address with publishing this 168 00:12:54,799 --> 00:13:01,720 book is really reminding people of the civilizational in particularly the religious context out of 169 00:13:01,759 --> 00:13:07,159 which every political system emerges, even our own tradition here in America. And 170 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:11,799 so what I did for this book that somewhat turns that narrative on its head 171 00:13:11,879 --> 00:13:16,519 is that I actually went back to nearly every ancient civilization. So I went 172 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,840 to ancient China, India, the Islamic world, the Persian world, and 173 00:13:20,879 --> 00:13:28,399 I included their classic texts on advice for statesmen, alongside the more prominent Western 174 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,799 tax of Cicero and Aristotle and Xenophon. And so in doing that exercise, 175 00:13:33,919 --> 00:13:39,879 I actually think that you discover there's greater unity among a lot of these classical 176 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:45,759 civilizations than we might think today. So one example of this is nearly in 177 00:13:45,799 --> 00:13:50,000 every tradition, but particularly the Persian, the Indian, and the Chinese, 178 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:56,480 the foundation for effective political leadership is self control. Self control. It's the 179 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:01,360 restraint of those kind of base human passions or glory for alcohol, for food, 180 00:14:01,559 --> 00:14:05,519 for sex, and almost stoicism. So almost as yeah, there's a 181 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:09,679 type of stoicism. And you see this, I mean, you open up 182 00:14:09,720 --> 00:14:13,360 this ancient Indian text, you know, that was written thousands of years ago. 183 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,080 And the very first thing is, you know, your kingdom will come 184 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:20,919 to ruin if you don't have restraint over your senses. And so this is 185 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:24,200 common in every tradition. And so I really do think that living that morally 186 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:30,159 virtuous life. You know, Machiavelli might believe that you should depart from that 187 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,279 in select occasions, but even then for him it would still only be in 188 00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:39,200 select occasions. You know, having self mastery is quite important in every tradition. 189 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,440 And the other thing is that religion really was, especially in the ancient 190 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:46,240 world. It wasn't really until Christianity in the West changed this a little bit, 191 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:50,720 but religion and the religious cult was the foundation for the political order, 192 00:14:50,799 --> 00:15:00,480 the religio exactly, history, economics, the Great works of letters, the 193 00:15:00,559 --> 00:15:03,720 meaning of the US Constitution. Did you study these things in school? Probably 194 00:15:03,759 --> 00:15:07,000 not, or if you're like me, maybe it's just time for a refresher. 195 00:15:07,039 --> 00:15:09,399 Even if you did study them. If you listen to this podcast, 196 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:13,519 you know I talk all the time, I don't know that I actually studied 197 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:16,720 these things with the best content in the first place. Time and technology have 198 00:15:16,840 --> 00:15:22,080 changed a lot of things, but they have not changed basic fundamental truths about 199 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:26,240 the world and our place in it. That's why I am genuinely so excited 200 00:15:26,279 --> 00:15:31,679 that Hillsdale College is offering more than forty free online courses in the most important 201 00:15:31,039 --> 00:15:35,799 and enduring subject You can learn about the works of C. S. Lewis, 202 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,159 the stories in the Book of Genesis, the meaning of the Constitution, 203 00:15:39,399 --> 00:15:43,919 the rise and fall of the Roman Republic, or the history of the ancient 204 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:48,039 Christian Church with Hillsdale College's online courses all available for free. That's right, 205 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:52,240 you heard me say that they are free. I send these courses to my 206 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:54,759 friends and family all the time. Personally, I recommend you sign up for 207 00:15:54,840 --> 00:15:58,240 C. S. Lewis on Christianity. In the seven lecture course, you 208 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,600 will examine some of Lewis's classic works, including Mere Christianity, my favorite, 209 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:07,279 The Screwtape Letters, The Abolition of Man, and more to see what Lewis 210 00:16:07,320 --> 00:16:11,879 had to say about scripture, prayer, suffering, joy, Heaven and Hell. 211 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,639 The course is self paced so that you can start whenever and wherever. 212 00:16:15,159 --> 00:16:19,519 En roll right now in C. S. Lewis on Christianity to discover Lewis's 213 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:25,320 core lessons regarding the truth and goodness of the Christian faith and how to apply 214 00:16:25,399 --> 00:16:29,399 those lessons to your life. So go right now to Hillsdale dot edu slash 215 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,639 Federalist to enroll. There's no cost and it's easy to get started. That's 216 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:45,120 Hillsdale dot edu slash Federalist to register Hillsdale dot edu slash Federalist. So I 217 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:47,279 was gonna it's funny that you said, I was just going to ask you 218 00:16:47,279 --> 00:16:53,559 about Tom Holland and dominion because this question actually I was reading on some wild 219 00:16:53,639 --> 00:16:57,679 Milton atheist website. One of their critiques of Tom Holland is that he doesn't 220 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:02,919 realize the ways in which early Christian sort of stole from the Stoics. But 221 00:17:03,639 --> 00:17:07,880 are there ways that some of this is the water that we're swimming in? 222 00:17:07,000 --> 00:17:14,720 So why read Xenophon if we're swimming in his waters? How true is that 223 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:18,559 when it comes to these philosophers? Well, I think what you'll find if 224 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,759 you you know, it sounds kind of high and abstract, But if you 225 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:27,279 open the book and sit down and just read any small section you could pick 226 00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:32,400 any of the one of the eighteen to twenty authors that I have, you'll 227 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:37,480 see that the advice really rings true today because they were offering profound reflections on 228 00:17:37,559 --> 00:17:41,640 human nature, which I think is permanent in nearly every context. So if 229 00:17:41,680 --> 00:17:45,880 you want advice on how do I pick you know, let's say this is 230 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:48,759 in a political context, how do I pick good advisors? How do I 231 00:17:48,799 --> 00:17:52,680 find personnel to staff my administration? How should I approach foreign policy? How 232 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:56,200 should I spend my time? This is going to have practical advice for you. 233 00:17:56,319 --> 00:18:00,640 Or if you're just an eighteen year old and you're president of your student 234 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:03,200 council and you want to make an impact in politics, and you want to 235 00:18:03,240 --> 00:18:07,400 know, like how do I grow and develop in my career and my professional 236 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,720 development, there's practical pieces of advice for you on these pages, and you 237 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,240 would think that, wow, maybe this is something that Jordan Peterson might tell 238 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:18,799 me, or something that my one of your favorite influencers might talk about. 239 00:18:18,839 --> 00:18:22,039 So it's a very practical tradition. So Johnny Burka is the Jordan Peterson for 240 00:18:22,079 --> 00:18:26,480 politicians. Is what I just heard you said it? Now, Okay, 241 00:18:26,519 --> 00:18:30,559 so actually let's talk a little bit about you. So you include I'm reading 242 00:18:30,559 --> 00:18:34,279 from the list here, you have Cistero, Augustine, Erasmus, Maket Valley, 243 00:18:34,319 --> 00:18:37,359 George Washington, and then you get to Theodore Roosevelt and Winston Churchill. 244 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:42,279 And obviously doctor Arn't probably loved the Winston Churchill part of that. But if 245 00:18:42,319 --> 00:18:45,559 we stay for a minute on some of those cross cultural differences in the ancient 246 00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:52,839 philosophers you mentioned restraint, are there other things or are there key differences when 247 00:18:52,880 --> 00:19:00,279 you went back and sort of consulted these texts that are are salient to leaning 248 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:04,319 wisdom from them on statesmanship. Sure so, especially with with Xenophon, with 249 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:10,680 Han Fei and China, with Catilian, ancient India, these are operating much 250 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:15,599 more from a realist political tradition, which I would say is much actually more 251 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:22,279 in line with Machiavelli. Some people say that Machiavelli was a significant rupture from 252 00:19:22,319 --> 00:19:25,799 the ancient world, and I think it's true that he was a rupture from 253 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:30,000 the Christian kind of medieval world, but perhaps less so from this ancient world 254 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:36,279 of real politic, where to some extent it does feel to me like the 255 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,559 ends do justify the means. If you can be successful in your political accomplishments, 256 00:19:40,599 --> 00:19:44,720 people will celebrate you as a victorious conqueror. But if you fail, 257 00:19:44,880 --> 00:19:48,880 you know you're you're a despot and a tyrant. Yes, So I think 258 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:53,640 really the biggest change that's introduced is by Christianity because in this ancient context, 259 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,160 you know, the kings were often believed to be gods, right, this 260 00:19:57,319 --> 00:20:00,839 was they were the one inter me the area, the link between heaven and 261 00:20:00,880 --> 00:20:06,599 earth, and that's why the religious call it was so central to the to 262 00:20:06,640 --> 00:20:10,680 the state. Christianity, you know, believes that there's only one God, 263 00:20:10,759 --> 00:20:15,599 right, and that that Christ is king. Judaism ancient in ancient Judaism does 264 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:19,799 that too, and that's that's a very very important point. So you do 265 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:25,680 have kingship in the Old Testament, but there is a there is a distinction 266 00:20:25,839 --> 00:20:30,200 between the priestly class and the kind of the royal dividic class, even though 267 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:33,000 I would say, you know, you have king David wrote the Psalms, 268 00:20:33,079 --> 00:20:36,680 right, so there is a priestly function. There's a sort of a priestly 269 00:20:36,839 --> 00:20:41,920 aspect to a king in ancient Israel, but it's certainly not the kind of 270 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:47,240 the divine status that you would find in ancient Egypt or ancient Mesopotamia. So 271 00:20:47,279 --> 00:20:52,400 I think Christianity does introduce that distinction between between the Church and the state, 272 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:57,359 which then over time, you know, grows to be I think more absolute 273 00:20:57,839 --> 00:21:02,839 than I think probably the early Christians would have understood it to be. So 274 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,960 I think the introduction of Christianity, and then obviously with Machiavelli, you do 275 00:21:07,079 --> 00:21:11,319 see that rupture where the world. This is to quote you know, Harvey 276 00:21:11,359 --> 00:21:18,920 Mansfield and his introduction to the Prince. Basically politics is kind of unfettered from 277 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:22,880 anything above it. So there's that that severing and it's kind of done, 278 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,759 you know, for its own sake, and so you do seek, you 279 00:21:26,799 --> 00:21:32,000 know, sort of with this rise of a more secular approach to politics, 280 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:36,880 a different approach to statesmanship. So what does Christianity do to the concept of 281 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,079 statesmanship, especially when you're looking back at you know, Xenophone and then comparing 282 00:21:41,079 --> 00:21:44,839 it to what a statesman is like or even Alexander the Great, and then 283 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:49,200 comparing you know, post Christian statesman, you know, how kings saw themselves 284 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:55,440 and then even how a Theodore Roosevelt or Winston Churchill saw themselves on the world 285 00:21:55,519 --> 00:22:00,000 stage. So in the ancient world, you know, in Aristotle talks about 286 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,759 this, honor is really honor in the public realm is really the highest end. 287 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,599 It's the path to immortality because they were not entirely sure about what happens 288 00:22:08,599 --> 00:22:12,559 to the soul after death. You see at the end of Cyrus the Great's 289 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:17,440 life, he's on his deathbed and he's giving a talk to his two sons, 290 00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:21,839 and he says, you know, I hope that my soul lives on, 291 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,400 you know, and that there is some sort of life after death. 292 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:27,480 And hopefully that can be a reminder to you, my sons, that my 293 00:22:27,599 --> 00:22:30,720 soul and spirit are here, and that can help you to be a better 294 00:22:30,799 --> 00:22:34,599 leader. But I'm not entirely sure about that. And so there's a lot 295 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,319 of hope that's placed in the public honors, the songs that will be told, 296 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:42,119 the monuments about your accomplishments on earth. And so I do feel like 297 00:22:42,160 --> 00:22:48,880 that helped to incentivize that ambiguity about what happens after death, incentivized more of 298 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,680 a conquering spirit, because this is the only place you had to make a 299 00:22:52,720 --> 00:22:56,319 mark and live a legacy. And even for Aristotle, right, he said, 300 00:22:56,559 --> 00:23:02,279 it's worth there are some condition in life that are not worth living, 301 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,319 you know, and so you really do dying perhaps in pursuit of honor, 302 00:23:06,559 --> 00:23:10,640 would be worthwhile because it'd be a way of the only way of achieving immortality. 303 00:23:11,079 --> 00:23:14,160 Where are Japanese? Yeah, there you go exactly. And then you 304 00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:18,359 know, with the Christian context, a lot of these texts really starts off 305 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:19,680 by saying, you know, hey, you know, hey, person in 306 00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,400 power, right, one day, you're going to die and you're going to 307 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:27,000 stand before the judgment seat of Christ. And if you're not just and merciful 308 00:23:27,480 --> 00:23:33,400 and you know, caring for the poor and pious and have more eternal rewards, 309 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,839 you're going to spend eternity in hell and that's going to be really painful. 310 00:23:37,839 --> 00:23:41,400 And so it's kind of their role is almost to like prick the conscience 311 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:44,960 of the king, because it was an era where there were I don't want 312 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,039 to say no checks and balances, because there are many organic ones that we 313 00:23:48,039 --> 00:23:52,400 don't quite realize today, but there were less formal checks and balances on a 314 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,079 king's power. So pricking their conscience and reminding them of eternal life or damnation 315 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:03,559 was a method that many of people Agustin and Aquinas used. So on that 316 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:10,079 note, you include Theodore Roosevelt and not Franklin. Roosevelt actually got interesting. 317 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,599 I know this is a specific person from a list of many people that you 318 00:24:14,640 --> 00:24:18,160 include in the book, But talk to us about why Theodore Roosevelt. You 319 00:24:18,519 --> 00:24:22,799 selected him to sort of take lessons from fund statesmanship. Yeah. So this 320 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,119 tradition of mirrors for princess ends at the modern era, and so what I'm 321 00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:30,119 trying to do is revive that for our own day. So I've included some 322 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,359 of these thinkers and statesmen like Teddy Roosevelt to expand this tradition. There's a 323 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:40,319 few reasons why I included Teddy Roosevelt. The first one, this text is 324 00:24:40,359 --> 00:24:45,240 called Citizenship in a Republic, and this is where you see two things. 325 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:48,400 One, he gives this admonition saying, in a republican context, you're only 326 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:55,000 going to have great leaders if the mass of the body politic are educated and 327 00:24:55,079 --> 00:24:59,920 actually receive sort of the intellectual and the moral foundations needed for self government. 328 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,480 And so he says the quality of your leaders will ebb and flow with the 329 00:25:03,559 --> 00:25:07,720 quality of the body public and their education level. So I thought that was 330 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:12,400 interesting and relates closely to our work of educating college students at II. And 331 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:17,119 then the second thing is he concludes with his famous quotation on the man in 332 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,720 the arena right, And this is basically, it's better to strive after great 333 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:26,599 and valiant deeds and if you fail, you know, you come short. 334 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,319 You know, at least you'll never be with the cowards who neither know victory 335 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:32,519 or defeat. And so this whole book is really saying, hey, in 336 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:37,200 our particular context in America, it's easier tempting to be to be blackpilled, 337 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,519 to want to withdraw from public life because things have gotten so bad. And 338 00:25:41,559 --> 00:25:45,079 so this is book, the whole book is really a call to action, 339 00:25:45,559 --> 00:25:49,200 and I think Teddy Roosevelt really embodies that, you know, the turn of 340 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:55,240 the twentieth century, that American spirit of being, the active life, and 341 00:25:55,279 --> 00:26:02,160 the virtues of that. So when do you think that tradition finally aided so 342 00:26:02,200 --> 00:26:06,880 the mirrors for Prince's tradition in the context of American politics, in the context 343 00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:11,519 of American politics. So the founders Washington, Jefferson, Adams, Hamilton would 344 00:26:11,519 --> 00:26:17,799 have been familiar with Cicero and Xenophon and Aristotle, so they would would have 345 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,480 understood this tradition. Now, I do believe that, you know, a 346 00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,960 lot of this was at the beginning of the progressive era, when some of 347 00:26:26,039 --> 00:26:30,119 these classic texts kind of dropped out of the curriculum, but you also do 348 00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:36,960 with the general broader shift away from monarchy towards republican government, the tradition vanishes 349 00:26:37,079 --> 00:26:38,759 because it was a little bit easier when you knew who the king or queen 350 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,680 was to write them a letter or to say, hey, I want to 351 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:45,920 be a tutor to your young prince. And this is the curriculum that I'd 352 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:51,400 put together. But my whole point is, you know, previous generations in 353 00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:56,039 every civilization gave very careful thought to the qualities that they wanted to see in 354 00:26:56,079 --> 00:27:00,319 their political leaders, and then they articulated them, and they created the educational 355 00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,200 institutions needed to pass that on. And so I think there's no reason we 356 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,680 couldn't have a mirrors for presidents or mirrors for senators tradition in our own day. 357 00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:12,240 What would that look like sort of practically, well, the most so, 358 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:17,000 you know, first and foremost, it's it could be putting together a 359 00:27:17,039 --> 00:27:19,839 collection of these classic texts. And I actually dedicated my book to the forty 360 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,920 seventh President of the United States, so maybe one day, you know, 361 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:29,640 he'll hold that in his hands as a source of inspiration. You know, 362 00:27:29,799 --> 00:27:33,680 in some respects it's you know, many of the famous kind of statesmen from 363 00:27:33,720 --> 00:27:37,720 throughout history. So Julius Caesar is said, and never have left for a 364 00:27:37,759 --> 00:27:41,519 battle without carrying scrolls of Xenophon's education with him. Thomas Moore didn't leave the 365 00:27:41,519 --> 00:27:47,000 house without copies of sisters on duties in his breast pocket. So you're saying 366 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,519 they're absolute losers. Yeah, exactly. I mean, so I think one 367 00:27:52,559 --> 00:27:55,559 it would just be you know, we can revive these classic texts. But 368 00:27:55,599 --> 00:27:59,720 I think, just like we have business books for entrepreneurs zero to one by 369 00:27:59,720 --> 00:28:03,400 Peter Deal, Jim Collins, good to great, how about we have some 370 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,240 books for how to become a great statesman or articulating the qualities that we want 371 00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,920 to see. So I think writing our own. But then also if you 372 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:15,039 if you move to Okay, how do you establish the educational institutions? You 373 00:28:15,079 --> 00:28:18,880 could certainly do that through an ISI, through a Hillsdale College. Those are 374 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,400 things that take a lot of money and a lot of time and a lot 375 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:26,599 of manpower to be able to implement or build or scale. But the classic 376 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,640 way in this tradition that the knowledge has passed is through one on one relationships 377 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:34,640 with a tutor and with a pupil, and that is really cost effective, 378 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,640 and so I think there's a way in which we could actually bring that back 379 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,559 today. You know, wouldn't it be amazing if you had a great philosopher 380 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:47,039 like a Harvey Mansfield, like a Larry arn actually kind of mentoring, you 381 00:28:47,079 --> 00:28:49,279 know, some of our senators. So I think there's ways that we could 382 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:57,680 bring it back today. Inflation's not going anywhere. The Watchdown on Wall Street 383 00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:03,119 podcast with Chris Marcas. Every day, Chris helps unpack the connection between politics 384 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:06,880 and the economy and how it affects your wallet. Major companies are continuing to 385 00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,000 lay off thousands of workers. Wholesale and retail prices went up in January. 386 00:29:11,079 --> 00:29:15,119 You can't believe the government's job numbers. The spin will be out there, 387 00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,480 whether it's happening in DC or down on Wall Street, it's affecting you financially. 388 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,799 Be informed. Check out the Watchdot on Wall Street podcast with Chris Markowski 389 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:30,960 on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. I don't want 390 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,799 to make a joke about how they'd mentored young men in ancient Rome. I 391 00:29:33,799 --> 00:29:37,160 don't want to make that joke at all, Johnny. But I will also 392 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:45,000 ask man that was so inappropriate. Maybe I'll cut that, maybe I won't. 393 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:56,880 But the question of education is tricky because it also feels like there's so 394 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:02,640 little control or there's so little interest in imbuing young people with anything other than 395 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:07,279 moral relativism. Now, and I guess it's just you know, young people 396 00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:11,160 or senators alike. I can understand how a Republican senator might find his way 397 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:19,240 into a conversation with Larry arn But statesmanship is almost a it's a lost concept, 398 00:30:19,319 --> 00:30:22,079 it seems to me on people like Chuck Schumer, like, what does 399 00:30:22,079 --> 00:30:26,920 he think about it? Actually, the one person who told me they read 400 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:32,440 good to great Kevin McCarthy interested in McCarthy, But I mean, it just 401 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:37,079 seems like he was trying to do something. But it seems like Hakim Jefferies 402 00:30:37,079 --> 00:30:41,519 doesn't have any ambition to be a statesman. How do you explain the concept 403 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:45,680 of statesmanship in and of itself when people seem to have lost that from its 404 00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,400 most basic level. So part of it was lost by design. So at 405 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,640 the beginning of the progressive era, there was a shift away from statesmanship classically 406 00:30:55,680 --> 00:31:02,400 understood in favor of management expertise and beureauocracy food to judge exactly right. So, 407 00:31:03,759 --> 00:31:07,519 and that was also mirroring a lot of the changes that were happening in 408 00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:11,839 the economy with sort of you know, much larger scale kind of conglomerates and 409 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:18,079 corporations that weren't as entrepreneurial, but that almost you know, mirrored to some 410 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,480 extent kind of the bureaucratic layers that you would see in government today. You 411 00:31:22,519 --> 00:31:26,720 know, we celebrate, at least in certain corners of the country, kind 412 00:31:26,759 --> 00:31:30,359 of the great entrepreneur Peter T. L Elon Musk, et cetera. But 413 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:34,400 we don't really hold in high esteem the CEOs of Fortune five hundred companies. 414 00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:38,319 You know there really are seen as managers more than great leaders or visionaries. 415 00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:41,319 So part of this is kind of just built into the structure. And then 416 00:31:41,359 --> 00:31:45,640 all of the schools, you know, if you look at the Harvard Kennedy 417 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,400 School or all these kind of public policy schools, they're really interested in creating 418 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:56,839 credentialized managers for the bureaucracies, not kind of great sold leaders. So that's 419 00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:00,079 that's a bigger structural issue that we have to address. But I do think 420 00:32:00,119 --> 00:32:02,000 if you were to sit you know, because some of this, though, 421 00:32:02,039 --> 00:32:06,480 is really just getting back to the most human level of what does it mean 422 00:32:06,519 --> 00:32:08,519 to be a great leader? And so part of me wonders if you were 423 00:32:08,519 --> 00:32:14,000 to sit Hakeem Jeffreys or Chuck Schumer down and you were to say, all 424 00:32:14,079 --> 00:32:17,839 right, what are the if you're just thinking abstractly, like what's your vision? 425 00:32:17,880 --> 00:32:21,279 What's your end game? You know? And I think they would probably 426 00:32:21,359 --> 00:32:24,440 say justice, or they would probably have a list in saying no, it's 427 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,680 actually good to be courageous, it's good to whatever. They would have their 428 00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:30,920 own vision, and I think we would disagree on what they're either what the 429 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:35,440 terms mean or the ends that they're pursuing, but they probably would still say 430 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,839 you should be prudent, you should be just, you should be courageous. 431 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,759 And so to some extent, the art of this tradition is, okay, 432 00:32:40,839 --> 00:32:45,000 maybe you are a smart, wise philosopher, academic or professor or theologian. 433 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,400 How do you make this advice? How do you sit someone like that down, 434 00:32:50,079 --> 00:32:52,480 get them talking and actually kind of take things back to first principles and 435 00:32:52,519 --> 00:32:58,640 help them to make better decisions. I have a really dumb question and really 436 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:00,759 specific, but what does states mean trip look like on social media? And 437 00:33:00,799 --> 00:33:02,880 I don't know if you've ever thought of that before. But I still find 438 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,000 it almost and this is going to be a matter of personal preference maybe, 439 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,880 but I still find it almost beneath the dignity of the office for a president, 440 00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:14,359 whether it's Joe Biden or Donald Trump. But let's even talk about Joe 441 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:17,000 Biden tweeting a picture of himself eating ice cream or saying, you just something 442 00:33:17,119 --> 00:33:22,160 silly that we know he didn't write. We know that Trump does write his 443 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,480 tweets, but you know, obviously we could talk about him tweeting about Mika 444 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:30,319 Brazinski or whatever. You know, Let's say there's a blank slate and you 445 00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:37,039 can write the template for a statesman in the era of TikTok YouTube, instagram, 446 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:43,880 Facebook, Twitter, What would that look like ideally? Well, maybe 447 00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:49,079 it's important just to back up for a moment, so you do see you 448 00:33:49,119 --> 00:33:52,359 see a shift in the twentieth century really away from so kind of in the 449 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:57,400 old classic conception, right, a king, it was an individual who was 450 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,920 in charge of the state, but it was very much an institutional individual. 451 00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,480 You see this if you watch The Crown and you see the ways in which 452 00:34:04,559 --> 00:34:08,679 Queen Elizabeth her own personality, her own interests have to be suppressed, and 453 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:15,719 she's a public institutional figure. Then you see kind of in a republican era, 454 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:19,960 kind of an era of you know, our founders. Washington himself, 455 00:34:20,079 --> 00:34:22,639 right, he resisted the idea of being a king or a dictator, and 456 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:28,519 he put all of his capital into building institutions that would endure. And he 457 00:34:28,559 --> 00:34:30,920 was even a reluctant statesman, someone who has pulled away from his farm to 458 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,360 get into the service of government. For a long time in American history, 459 00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:39,159 probably one hundred years, it was that trope of the reluctant statesman who has 460 00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:45,719 yanked into the public arena by popular demand. But in the twentieth century that 461 00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:50,000 really does begin to shift, and instead of having the institutional individual or these 462 00:34:50,079 --> 00:34:54,079 institutions kind of running things, you do get I think, this sense of 463 00:34:54,159 --> 00:35:00,719 individuality that is really dominant, and that you see in Teddy Roosevelt, in 464 00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,960 Winston Churchill, even in Ronald Reagan. And so even though these are you 465 00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:10,400 know, conservatives or lowercase C conservatives of a stripe, their individuality is in 466 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,559 their charisma is really a defining aspect of their leadership. And so as you 467 00:35:15,599 --> 00:35:22,039 transition to this social media era, you know, we have, really the 468 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:27,440 institutions of our republic are degraded to such an extent that we really do just 469 00:35:27,599 --> 00:35:31,840 have you know, essentially mass mass democracy. And so really the only way 470 00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:38,840 to achieve political power is to some extent by playing the part of a demagogue 471 00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:45,440 and kind of groveling before to two different constituencies. You're you're groveling before the 472 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,320 oligarchs right to get your hundred million dollars to run your campaign, and then 473 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:53,159 you're groveling before you know, the masses on social media for two and a 474 00:35:53,199 --> 00:35:57,199 half years, you know, and maybe you could even say that the whole 475 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,320 kind of historically, going back to Cyrus, you know, he had to 476 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:04,639 lead his military campaign. You know, there was the conquest and then eventually 477 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,159 the ruling that came after the conquest. Now, I guess you could say 478 00:36:07,159 --> 00:36:10,280 that the conquest is making it through the two and a half your campaign, 479 00:36:10,639 --> 00:36:14,320 and then the ruling is the part that comes after. And most people aren't 480 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:17,639 even really interested in governing. It's sort of the thrill of the campaign is 481 00:36:17,679 --> 00:36:23,519 the whole thing. And so I think it's very difficult in today's day and 482 00:36:23,599 --> 00:36:30,639 age not to you know, to Thomas Aquinas warns about kind of men in 483 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:34,519 pursuit of public life in a context like this, you know, often become 484 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:37,480 false because they're trying simply to just please the ears of the people that they're 485 00:36:37,679 --> 00:36:42,320 they're hoping to win them into their camp. So I think there has to 486 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:47,519 be some way where you are still courting kind of mass appeal the way that 487 00:36:49,559 --> 00:36:53,559 someone who's not a conservative, someone like FDR did, But you're actually calling 488 00:36:53,599 --> 00:37:00,119 people towards, you know, more transcendent ends than politics. You're pursuing them 489 00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:05,079 and good You're leading with a beautiful vision. You're painting a portrait of the 490 00:37:05,119 --> 00:37:07,360 world that you want to create, and you're giving people confidence that you can 491 00:37:07,400 --> 00:37:10,840 bring that about and make that a reality. And I would hope that there's 492 00:37:12,000 --> 00:37:16,920 enough goodness left in the American people that in mass they could rally behind a 493 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:21,039 beautiful vision like that. And now you're just sort of trying to be the 494 00:37:21,039 --> 00:37:24,840 president of Babel. Yeah, exactly, the president of Babel. So some 495 00:37:25,039 --> 00:37:30,039 time ago, maybe it wasn't that long, with maybe five years something like 496 00:37:30,039 --> 00:37:34,559 that. It just kind of shook me when someone in the conservative movement said, 497 00:37:34,599 --> 00:37:37,639 you know, I think it was in the middle of a border debate 498 00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,559 something like that they said, we don't have statesmen anymore, and I had 499 00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:44,000 never thought about that. It was part of the reason I was excited to 500 00:37:44,039 --> 00:37:45,679 talk to you. And let me pose the question that you're going to get 501 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:51,679 a million times during this book tour, which is, is there an example 502 00:37:52,199 --> 00:37:55,360 of a statesman today, a great statesman today? Are there people who shall 503 00:37:55,400 --> 00:37:59,840 promise? Are there people who are examples of what not to do? But 504 00:38:00,039 --> 00:38:01,920 as we look at the kind of political landscape, the cultural landscape today, 505 00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:07,519 are there examples that are helpful to the point you're making. Yeah, So 506 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:12,159 I think someone a couple of people come to mind. But I think, 507 00:38:13,039 --> 00:38:15,840 let's say, someone like DeSantis is kind of a cautionary tale, which in 508 00:38:16,679 --> 00:38:20,440 a sense, you know, I think, within the context of his own 509 00:38:20,519 --> 00:38:24,599 state in Florida, he he you know, really it's a state that he 510 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:30,280 won by a small margin. Initially, he took some courageous positions, especially 511 00:38:30,280 --> 00:38:34,920 on COVID, He kind of built a new coalition, and then he executed 512 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,880 on a laundry list of conservative priorities and has you know, probably flipped the 513 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:42,599 state a purple state pretty red for a long period of time. So I 514 00:38:42,639 --> 00:38:45,360 think if you're just looking at the local level. Yeah, he is a 515 00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:51,280 promising statesman, but I think his campaign really fell flat on its face from 516 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,880 the start because I think he didn't really understand that in order to win at 517 00:38:54,880 --> 00:39:00,119 the national level, a great statesman does have to have a vision not just 518 00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:04,679 for their camp or for their tribe to win, but a vision for the 519 00:39:04,719 --> 00:39:07,400 flourishing of the whole society. And you do have to paint on that big 520 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:12,119 canvas, you know, beautiful, captivating colors that are really going to capture 521 00:39:12,159 --> 00:39:15,400 people's hearts in their imagination. And I think he thought you can lead on 522 00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:20,199 policy, he can lead on rattling off the list of his accomplishments, which 523 00:39:20,239 --> 00:39:22,599 are all, you know, great things, But I don't think he really 524 00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:27,159 understood the heart of a voter and how that works. So I think he's 525 00:39:27,199 --> 00:39:31,800 a cautionary tale that policy alone and previous victories aren't enough. I think if 526 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:36,159 someone else, Robert Leitthheiser, who I admire, right, who's not an 527 00:39:36,199 --> 00:39:40,119 elected statesman, but who is operating, you know, as the US trade 528 00:39:40,159 --> 00:39:45,880 representative in the Trump administration. And this is someone who going back to the 529 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:49,960 late nineties, wrote an op ed for The New York Times warning against China 530 00:39:50,400 --> 00:39:53,559 entering the World Trade Organization. Everyone kind of thought he was crazy, but 531 00:39:53,599 --> 00:39:57,960 he had a prophetic voice, and then the way, you know, his 532 00:39:58,039 --> 00:40:01,000 own the waves of his own sorry, the waves of fortune eventually ended up 533 00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:06,079 aligning with his own position, and he found himself advising Donald Trump. And 534 00:40:06,079 --> 00:40:08,639 then I think had to be very artful in a cabinet that was actually quite 535 00:40:08,679 --> 00:40:15,519 divided over the appropriate response to China and trade and tariffs, and he very 536 00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:20,800 deftly kind of navigated that and I think helped to bring about a paradigm shift 537 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:22,840 and how our country approaches China. And so I think someone like him would 538 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:27,960 be a certainly a model as an advisor to a statesman. Oh that's a 539 00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:30,559 great point. We've been very lucky to have this chat, Johnny, about 540 00:40:30,559 --> 00:40:36,039 your new book called Gateway to Statesmanship Selections from Xenophon to Churchill. The forward 541 00:40:36,039 --> 00:40:39,440 again is by Larry arn the prophaces by Larry On. Johnny. Lastly, 542 00:40:39,519 --> 00:40:42,760 just tell us a little bit about what you guys are up to at II. 543 00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:47,320 Yeah. Absolutely, So ISI exists really to implement everything that we've been 544 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:52,719 talking about in terms of, you know, we look at the country and 545 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,960 we see the failures of our elite leaders in nearly every sector, but especially 546 00:40:57,039 --> 00:41:00,360 an education and so then the question becomes, how do you get new and 547 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,199 better leaders? And so what we're doing at ISI is we're traveling the country 548 00:41:04,559 --> 00:41:08,559 and we're actually doing talent id and we have very specific i would say, 549 00:41:08,599 --> 00:41:15,320 both both moral, intellectual and leadership skills. We have a checklist of traits 550 00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:19,800 that we're looking for in students and so we identify those and we help through 551 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,159 a network of mentors, friends and educators to give them the knowledge that they're 552 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:29,559 not getting in the classroom and then to help to place them in positions of 553 00:41:29,559 --> 00:41:34,159 influence after they graduate. So we have nearly one hundred and fifty chapters on 554 00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,480 college campuses and also a network of eighty five newspapers. So we're really doing 555 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:43,159 that work of educating the minds and the hearts of hopefully future great leaders for 556 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:46,840 America desperately needed. And Johnny Burka once again is the author of Statesmanship Selections 557 00:41:46,840 --> 00:41:52,639 from Xenophone to Churchilli dot org i side dot org. There you go. 558 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:54,920 All right, Well, you've been listening to another edition of the Federalist Radio 559 00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,840 Hour. Emmily Dashinsky, culture editor here at the Federalist, will be back 560 00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,360 soon with more be lovers of freedom and anxious for the frame