WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.240 --> 00:00:06.000 Hello, I'm John allre Before you listen to this episode, a couple of 2 00:00:06.040 --> 00:00:12.720 things. These are podcasts from the first season of Who Killed Teresa. They 3 00:00:12.759 --> 00:00:17.239 haven't been heard in over four years. They're raw, it took me a 4 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:21.559 while to develop a style. A lot of people like them that way, 5 00:00:22.320 --> 00:00:29.480 unvarnished. Others commented that it was amateurish. Nonetheless, here they are. 6 00:00:29.640 --> 00:00:33.280 I'm edited. I haven't gone back and listened to them, I haven't cleaned 7 00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:39.039 them up. Thanks for listening. And once again, life isn't fair. 8 00:00:39.560 --> 00:00:45.359 Justice is blind and dysfunctional, and some cops aren't smart and dedicated like on 9 00:00:45.399 --> 00:01:00.799 television. This is Who Killed Teresa? Hey, welcome to the show. 10 00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:06.359 This Is Who Killed Teresa a podcast about criminal justice, social justice, and 11 00:01:06.439 --> 00:01:10.359 some unsolved murders in the province of Quebec. I'm your host, John A. 12 00:01:10.439 --> 00:01:15.760 Lore and I'm excited to welcome today's guest, Joanne Wemmers. She's here 13 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:22.519 to talk about her latest book, Victimology Canadian Perspective. Joanne is a professor 14 00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:27.840 of criminology at the University of Montreal and an international expert on victimology. She 15 00:01:27.879 --> 00:01:33.319 has published over a hundred articles, chapters and books on the subject and is 16 00:01:33.359 --> 00:01:38.959 past Secretary General of the World Society of Victimology and is the editor of the 17 00:01:38.000 --> 00:01:46.359 International Review of Victimology. Joanne, Welcome to Who Killed Teresa? Thanks John, 18 00:01:46.480 --> 00:01:49.840 glad to be here. Great and here in Montreal. Yes, great, 19 00:01:51.239 --> 00:01:56.480 fantastic. I hope you're enjoying a wonderful Saturday. So, you know, 20 00:01:56.840 --> 00:02:02.480 by means of an introductory or an introduction to the book on victimology, 21 00:02:02.840 --> 00:02:07.200 can you kind of lay the groundwork a little bit and tell our audience. 22 00:02:07.319 --> 00:02:10.479 I mean it may be self evident, but possibly not, just the difference 23 00:02:10.520 --> 00:02:17.520 between criminology and victimology or the relationship between the two disciplines. Great question, 24 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.680 and I'll give you the shortest answer possibly possible. Victimology started by it was 25 00:02:23.719 --> 00:02:28.280 the criminologist that started saying, you know, while we're studying crime, we 26 00:02:28.360 --> 00:02:31.879 should be looking at the victim as well. Originally, their only concern with 27 00:02:32.000 --> 00:02:35.800 victims was to help them explain the crime, because after all, they were 28 00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:42.080 criminologists. And that was around the time of the Second World War. After 29 00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:46.240 the Second World War, gradually there was an evolution in particularly i'd say after 30 00:02:46.479 --> 00:02:51.759 maybe even the Vietnam War, where we were becoming more and more where that 31 00:02:51.879 --> 00:02:55.800 we shouldn't just be looking at victims as an actor in the crime, but 32 00:02:55.960 --> 00:03:02.000 also try to understand the consequences of victimization, the impact that it has on 33 00:03:02.159 --> 00:03:07.039 people on their lives. And so there was a growing call for services as 34 00:03:07.080 --> 00:03:14.840 well, and we saw the emergence of the first victim compensation programs in countries 35 00:03:14.919 --> 00:03:20.319 like England, United States, Canada in the sixties. Already in the seventies 36 00:03:20.319 --> 00:03:27.520 it continued. So victimology has grown from criminology, one can say. Over 37 00:03:27.560 --> 00:03:30.280 the years, there's been quite a bit of debate whether victimology is a science 38 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:34.000 in a dome right, whether it should be, or whether it should continue 39 00:03:34.039 --> 00:03:38.599 to stay part of criminology. The biggest concern or the biggest argument, I 40 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:43.759 think the most important one is that that criminology really focuses on crime, and 41 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.080 if you want to be strict about that, the quote is defined as a 42 00:03:46.080 --> 00:03:51.039 crime. It finds found in the criminal Code, which means you're very limited 43 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:54.599 in terms of what you can look at. And that's why some people, 44 00:03:54.840 --> 00:03:59.319 and I'm one of them, argue for an approach that's much more focused on 45 00:03:59.680 --> 00:04:02.919 violes of human rights, including crimes. Crime is a violation of the human 46 00:04:03.000 --> 00:04:09.159 rights of the victim, and that allows us the freedom to look at things 47 00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:15.759 that might not be defined in the criminal code yet classic example abuses of power 48 00:04:15.840 --> 00:04:18.519 by the state, for example, that might not legally be crimes but clearly 49 00:04:18.720 --> 00:04:25.120 victimization, or simply things that haven't that are new on our radar. For 50 00:04:25.199 --> 00:04:30.240 example, in Canada, it wasn't until twenty fifteen that forced marriage became a 51 00:04:30.279 --> 00:04:35.040 crime, and yet it was something that victimologists were looking at already, so 52 00:04:35.120 --> 00:04:39.000 I think, and it's something that you find in the UN Declaration of Human 53 00:04:39.079 --> 00:04:44.160 Rights as well or Universal Declaration of Human Rights where they talk about the freedom 54 00:04:44.639 --> 00:04:47.439 of choice when it comes to marriages. So it's clearly a human rights violation 55 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.720 since the forties the fifties, but it didn't become a crime in Canada at 56 00:04:51.800 --> 00:04:59.560 least until very recently. So I think that that victimology focuses on violations of 57 00:04:59.639 --> 00:05:02.279 human rights, which can include crimes, so that is a little bit larger 58 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:06.560 um. What's interesting as well, as in recent years we've seen criminology become 59 00:05:06.600 --> 00:05:12.839 i think influenced by the work being done in victimology, where you see gradually 60 00:05:13.720 --> 00:05:19.920 criminologists looking at crimes like genocide, something which had been ignored essentially since the 61 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:25.240 Second World War, surprisingly the crime of crimes um and yet in the last 62 00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:29.680 ten years criminologist seems to have rediscovered that. And I think in part is 63 00:05:29.720 --> 00:05:33.079 influenced by the work we see in victimology and its focus on gross violations of 64 00:05:33.160 --> 00:05:39.560 human rights right and in many ways, I guess in it, in its 65 00:05:39.560 --> 00:05:46.759 earliest sense, the victim's role in a court process was in its you know, 66 00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:49.680 in its infancy, really about prepping a witness. No, I mean, 67 00:05:49.720 --> 00:05:54.199 I mean that was kind of was like you had victims who were witnesses 68 00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:58.120 to crimes, so that's how they would be integrated into the criminal process. 69 00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:02.040 Can you talk about a little bit of the criminal justice system in Canada and 70 00:06:02.639 --> 00:06:11.319 how how it exists today and how in many senses that the victims are marginalized 71 00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:15.800 from the process today, victims still are, unfortunately in Canada and I believe 72 00:06:15.959 --> 00:06:19.480 much so in the US as well, witnesses to a crime against the state, 73 00:06:20.000 --> 00:06:23.959 which can only make sense to a lawyer, because it doesn't make sense 74 00:06:24.000 --> 00:06:28.680 to anyone who has not studied law that they could be the object, they 75 00:06:28.720 --> 00:06:32.879 could experience a crime, but actually technically be witnesses to a crime against the 76 00:06:32.920 --> 00:06:41.279 state. And that is the beginning and the explains everything that follows regarding victims 77 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:46.079 marginalization in the criminal justice process, because they are there, as you said, 78 00:06:46.120 --> 00:06:51.120 as witnesses, not as the person who has some sort of status unique 79 00:06:51.160 --> 00:06:57.079 as the person who experienced the crime, and that's why we're One of the 80 00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:00.759 arguments I make is that that crime is a violation of the victor human rights 81 00:07:00.800 --> 00:07:04.319 as well as an offense against the state, and that I think is an 82 00:07:04.319 --> 00:07:10.040 important distinction to make. But because victims are only witnesses technically in the criminal 83 00:07:10.079 --> 00:07:16.399 justice process, they're essentially marginalized and have no real role in our adversarial process. 84 00:07:17.800 --> 00:07:21.079 Once they report a crime to the police. After that all their power, 85 00:07:21.240 --> 00:07:26.839 any control they had over essentially given over to the state, and it's 86 00:07:26.879 --> 00:07:30.000 the state, or in the name of the police, or later the prosecutor, 87 00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:32.800 who will decide whether or not there's sufficient evidence to warrant a criminal justice 88 00:07:33.160 --> 00:07:40.839 or prosecute prosecution and etc. So victims don't have any control and they don't 89 00:07:40.879 --> 00:07:46.720 have any any sort of unique position or status in the process. And that's 90 00:07:46.720 --> 00:07:51.000 a fundamental flaw because it just flies in the face of what the victims experiencing. 91 00:07:51.600 --> 00:07:55.959 It's not what people expect, and it ends up being what we refer 92 00:07:56.040 --> 00:07:59.759 to as the second victimization, the first being the crime itself in the second 93 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:07.800 one being their treatment mistreatment in the criminal justice process. Right and din you 94 00:08:07.879 --> 00:08:13.759 discuss this the idea of we we tend on the one hand to believe in, 95 00:08:15.319 --> 00:08:18.160 you know, these these tropes about a just society, yet on the 96 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:26.199 other hand, that the general population seems totally dis disinterested or disaffected by the 97 00:08:26.279 --> 00:08:31.200 victims experience. They they kind of see a stereotype of how a victim should 98 00:08:31.240 --> 00:08:39.279 be behaved and are sometimes quite shocked when when their responses to the secondary victimization 99 00:08:39.600 --> 00:08:45.360 may not fit those stereotypes. There are all sorts of associations or expectations we 100 00:08:45.440 --> 00:08:48.480 make of victims um, and the victim is if you think of the word, 101 00:08:48.480 --> 00:08:52.080 it's not it's not a pretty word. It's not something um that the 102 00:08:52.200 --> 00:08:56.440 people are are happy, you know, associating or being labeled with ergo. 103 00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:58.519 You hear a lot of victims say, I don't like the label. I 104 00:08:58.559 --> 00:09:03.799 don't want to called a victim. I'd rather be I'm a survivor. One 105 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:07.360 of the arguments I'm make in the book is that this is before we can 106 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:11.159 become a survivor, we first have to recognize the victimization. So why in 107 00:09:11.200 --> 00:09:16.279 the book I talk about victims and use that word even though victims often later 108 00:09:16.919 --> 00:09:22.360 are want to be recognized as survivors. But yes, the victims come across 109 00:09:22.399 --> 00:09:28.159 as being particularly strong rather than weak, active rather than passive. This is 110 00:09:28.200 --> 00:09:35.399 often this can lead to you know, negative reactions or judgments by the public 111 00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:39.320 in general. I mean some interesting work done for example by Jan Vandyke where 112 00:09:39.320 --> 00:09:43.679 he looked at in a series of victims, high profile victims in Europe, 113 00:09:43.720 --> 00:09:48.080 for example, including a Natasha Kampusch who was in Austria who had a horrible 114 00:09:48.159 --> 00:09:52.879 victimization. She had been captured and I think it was ten years of age 115 00:09:52.879 --> 00:09:58.440 and kept for years in the basement of her the home of her aggressor, 116 00:09:58.480 --> 00:10:01.519 and finally one day she managed to escape and he when he realized that she 117 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.480 had escaped, killed himself. So there never was a criminal justice a trial. 118 00:10:07.440 --> 00:10:09.759 But afterwards she was in the media a lot, and in some of 119 00:10:09.759 --> 00:10:16.240 the interviews she would describe or her relationship with her aggressor, not always in 120 00:10:16.360 --> 00:10:22.440 terms of negative horrible monster. Would you understand at one level, if if 121 00:10:22.559 --> 00:10:24.960 from the age of you know, a childhood right through this person is the 122 00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.120 only person you have your relationship is it's not just one sided, it's not 123 00:10:31.200 --> 00:10:37.240 one color, it's it's very nuanced. And the fact that she could even 124 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:41.440 have any empathy for the person who had clearly victimized her and done something that 125 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.559 was clearly unacceptable, and she was was frowned upon, and she was in 126 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:52.679 many ways condemned, one could say in public opinion because of her reaction. 127 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:58.399 Wasn't what people expected? Something we see as well. I did a paper 128 00:10:58.440 --> 00:11:03.240 on it with victims of sexual vibe. Again, we have certain expectations about 129 00:11:03.240 --> 00:11:07.559 how the victims should react. We expect victims to denounce immediately afterwards, and 130 00:11:07.600 --> 00:11:11.879 when victims most victims don't denounce immediately afterwards. And when they don't, why 131 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:16.000 didn't you you know, was there some editing? So we judge people's behavior 132 00:11:16.120 --> 00:11:22.399 quite quickly, um as opposed to trying to understand, you know, the 133 00:11:22.440 --> 00:11:26.120 psychology of the individual and the impact of trauma on individuals and their behavior. 134 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:30.679 Well, one of the complex things I think you bring up is that in 135 00:11:30.720 --> 00:11:35.080 the case of sexual assault, certainly that over sixty percent of those who are 136 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:41.639 assaulted in some way have a relationship with their assailant. And just think about 137 00:11:41.639 --> 00:11:45.879 how confusing that can be in terms of that's that's not a black and white 138 00:11:45.879 --> 00:11:48.840 world we're talking about at all exactly. And then you see the the you 139 00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:54.360 know, the nuances, and people start to blame themselves, and the likelihood 140 00:11:54.399 --> 00:11:58.519 that the person will report the crime increases when it's a stranger, when it's 141 00:11:58.519 --> 00:12:03.559 particularly violent. Um So you see that it's that that question of how obvious 142 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.120 is because at its heart victimization recognizing something as a victimization, it's a subjective 143 00:12:09.159 --> 00:12:15.159 interpretation. So when something happens to you, there's no real objective criteria to 144 00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:18.879 say that was a victimizations. It depends on how you interpret it. And 145 00:12:18.360 --> 00:12:22.759 that that's I think is key. So when you come to a type of 146 00:12:22.759 --> 00:12:26.840 offense where you know the aggressor and you know maybe it's less violent, more 147 00:12:26.919 --> 00:12:31.799 psychological, then you can see there a lot of nuance becomes difficult for the 148 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:37.000 person and they start doubting themselves, they start questioning themselves, and and that's 149 00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:41.600 that's the reality that you know, these things happen in relationships with other human 150 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:46.279 beings which are very nuanced, very subtle things. Can you walk us through 151 00:12:46.320 --> 00:12:56.279 a little bit briefly of the history of UM I guess victim's advocacy in Canada. 152 00:12:56.440 --> 00:13:00.600 I think you mentioned that it began with the creation of women shelters UM 153 00:13:00.639 --> 00:13:05.559 and with you know, a great base of volunteers and has gradually become more 154 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:11.039 professional. But that certainly as it becomes more professional and you know, gets 155 00:13:11.279 --> 00:13:16.519 gets UM intermeshed with with the government, that there's a danger there of being 156 00:13:16.519 --> 00:13:20.600 compromised by the co opting of the victims movement. Yeah, that's something that 157 00:13:20.600 --> 00:13:24.159 people have been talking about for ages, and I think it's very important. 158 00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.600 I mean, I think no matter what, we always have to keep, 159 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:30.440 you know, a critical thought is key and we can't be lazy as citizens. 160 00:13:30.480 --> 00:13:33.360 We always have to ask, okay, is who's benefiting from this? 161 00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:37.639 And the victims movement is a key example. There's great work by Robert Elias 162 00:13:37.639 --> 00:13:43.720 of American political scientist on this, who looks at the state compensation schemes in 163 00:13:43.720 --> 00:13:46.200 the nineteen eighties in the United States and says, you know, who who's 164 00:13:46.240 --> 00:13:52.279 benefiting from these? Because they're excluding a large group of victims of violence. 165 00:13:52.360 --> 00:13:58.440 People with serious needs who are being categorically excluded. Their criteria are so narrow 166 00:13:58.039 --> 00:14:03.879 um injury victims are not included. It's only direct victims of certain crimes. 167 00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:07.480 So who exactly is benefiting from this? And he comes to the conclusion that 168 00:14:07.519 --> 00:14:11.919 these programs were put in placement to a large extent to pay lip service to 169 00:14:13.039 --> 00:14:16.960 victims, to say, look, we've done something for victims without actually helping 170 00:14:16.080 --> 00:14:20.799 victims. And it's quite interesting because if you do look at the compensation schemes 171 00:14:20.879 --> 00:14:24.639 in the states, in Canada in particular, I can speak to that because 172 00:14:24.639 --> 00:14:28.399 I did an analysis of right across the country, the ten provinces and the 173 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:33.320 three territories, what do we have And the reality is that a we do 174 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:41.080 not have victims compensation across the country. The poorest regions in Canada stopped having 175 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:46.279 programs when the federal government put an end to its transfer of funding, so 176 00:14:46.360 --> 00:14:48.720 sharing the cost, the burden, financial burden of these programs, and that 177 00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:54.480 that would that would be the territories in Newfoundland correct exactly exactly, and that 178 00:14:54.559 --> 00:14:58.559 was in ninety three, and so they and all the rest of the provinces, 179 00:14:58.559 --> 00:15:05.399 with the well even Quebec tried have since downsized their programs considerably since then, 180 00:15:05.399 --> 00:15:09.720 simply because they didn't have the funds anymore to offer the same level of 181 00:15:09.759 --> 00:15:13.000 service. M SO. And when you look at well, who who, 182 00:15:13.000 --> 00:15:16.840 what are they offering and who are they offering too, what are the rules 183 00:15:16.879 --> 00:15:22.279 that go with it, it's very very limited. UM. Some programs, 184 00:15:22.320 --> 00:15:26.240 for example in Manitoba, they'll look at whether or not the person has had 185 00:15:26.480 --> 00:15:30.919 has been convicted of any sort of crimes in the last few years. So 186 00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:33.960 we're not talking about whether your injuries are the result of a crime, but 187 00:15:35.000 --> 00:15:37.960 whether maybe five years ago you would stopped for vagrancy for example. I mean 188 00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.679 we're talking serious crimes, we're talking minor offenses. And if that was the 189 00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:46.039 case, well then you'll lose points. And the fact that this has nothing 190 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:52.360 to do with your current victimization doesn't matter. You will get less compensation as 191 00:15:52.360 --> 00:15:56.480 a result. So there was this one example recently and that would caught of 192 00:15:56.559 --> 00:16:03.279 a mother in Manitoba. Her daughter had been murdered and when she applied to 193 00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.480 get some sort of help paying the funeral expenses, she was essentially refused because 194 00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:12.799 her daughter had in the past committed some crimes, had a record which has 195 00:16:12.840 --> 00:16:18.320 nothing to do with her victimization, and therefore she was refused any sort of 196 00:16:18.360 --> 00:16:25.159 assistance with the funeral costs. And even if the person were to get offense 197 00:16:25.279 --> 00:16:30.360 or commit an offense after they'd received compensation, there too they run the risk 198 00:16:30.440 --> 00:16:33.200 of having their compensation reduced. So again you see, it had nothing to 199 00:16:33.240 --> 00:16:37.279 do with their victimization. So you have to ask yourself, Okay, well 200 00:16:37.320 --> 00:16:41.200 what's this about, what are we doing, what's the objective of these programs 201 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:45.759 and what should it be? And what you see is I think they have 202 00:16:45.879 --> 00:16:52.240 a follow a criminal justice model where they're very much rewarding behavior people for example, 203 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:57.559 reporting to the police, cooperating with authorities, law abiding behavior, but 204 00:16:57.600 --> 00:17:02.159 they're not looking at the knee needs of the individual. So, for example, 205 00:17:02.200 --> 00:17:04.960 even if you are an ideal model citizen, but you have a history 206 00:17:04.960 --> 00:17:11.079 of victimization and your prior victimizations did not make you eligible. For example, 207 00:17:11.119 --> 00:17:15.799 you missed the one year deadline for compensation in your province. But this new 208 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:22.880 victimization, you're able to get compensation if there are psychological consequences that you're suffering 209 00:17:22.920 --> 00:17:27.359 and those are in a way a result of prior victimization. They will not 210 00:17:27.480 --> 00:17:33.400 provide you with psychological assistance or extended counseling in order to deal with those the 211 00:17:33.480 --> 00:17:40.960 damages or the problems that you already had to your victimization. It really will 212 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:44.839 stop there. I had one expert explain to me it's like if someone had 213 00:17:45.119 --> 00:17:48.200 a broken arm as a result of their victimization, and prior to that they 214 00:17:48.240 --> 00:17:52.279 already had some difficulties moving their arm. They're going to give you physiotherapy to 215 00:17:52.319 --> 00:17:56.119 sort of fix that, to take it back to the level it was at 216 00:17:56.119 --> 00:17:59.640 the moment of your victimization, but they're not going to restore full operation of 217 00:17:59.640 --> 00:18:03.400 your arm, so it's very very limited. UM. And when you know 218 00:18:03.559 --> 00:18:10.279 that prior victimization puts you at risk of future victimization, UM, you realize 219 00:18:10.279 --> 00:18:14.240 that we're creating a vicious circle that makes it very difficult for the most vulnerable 220 00:18:14.319 --> 00:18:18.519 members of our society to get out of UM. And we're really creating two 221 00:18:18.559 --> 00:18:23.000 separate groups, the haves and the have not and the most needy are in 222 00:18:23.039 --> 00:18:27.160 many ways being ignored. Well, I think I think you hit it right 223 00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:33.799 there with the bar set that high. Think think of the the marginalized communities 224 00:18:33.839 --> 00:18:37.680 that you're excluding from the mix. As you say the people most prone to 225 00:18:37.759 --> 00:18:42.920 secondary victimization, who need the compensation the most are being excluded. But these 226 00:18:42.920 --> 00:18:48.160 are the people who are exposed to systemic violence. I mean, I think 227 00:18:48.200 --> 00:18:52.400 that's a good transition point where we can we talk a bit about the I 228 00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:57.200 guess what you call that, you know, the word that which must never 229 00:18:57.279 --> 00:19:03.680 be said in the victim's movement, and that's the taboo of victim blaming and 230 00:19:03.720 --> 00:19:06.759 how it's it's you know, on the one hand, it's one thing to 231 00:19:06.839 --> 00:19:11.039 say she wore a short skirt, she had it coming, but that's not 232 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.920 really what you're getting at. I think what you're getting at is that certain 233 00:19:15.079 --> 00:19:21.720 types of victims are more predisposed to increased violence due to circumstances and environment, 234 00:19:21.759 --> 00:19:26.839 etc. Yes, exactly. And I think once we know that, we 235 00:19:26.920 --> 00:19:32.720 as a society have a moral responsibility to invest in crime prevention because no one 236 00:19:32.960 --> 00:19:34.880 wants to be victimized, not a first time and definitely not a second, 237 00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:38.480 third, fourth, fifth time. So when I think we need to we 238 00:19:38.519 --> 00:19:44.400 have a responsibility to use that information, that knowledge to target programs, services 239 00:19:44.440 --> 00:19:48.000 to help those who are the highest risk of victimization, and those are often 240 00:19:48.079 --> 00:19:55.119 modernized communities in Canada, in particular the Aboriginal communities. Women are three times 241 00:19:55.119 --> 00:20:00.920 more likely to be victimized victims of violence than non Aboriginal Canadians. That's a 242 00:20:00.960 --> 00:20:06.440 problem and another, you know, fascinating points when you look at the Canadian 243 00:20:06.519 --> 00:20:10.279 Victimization survey that comes out every four or five years, when they present the 244 00:20:10.359 --> 00:20:14.160 data, they don't even present the territories. They present the ten provinces. 245 00:20:14.839 --> 00:20:18.920 The argument is is that that's because the territories small population, the data is 246 00:20:18.960 --> 00:20:22.839 collected differently. In a fact, up until fifteen years ago, they didn't 247 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:26.880 even measure victimization in the territories. It was only the ten provinces. But 248 00:20:26.039 --> 00:20:32.519 you have to remember then that what you're doing is presenting a gross underestimation of 249 00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:37.359 the victimization rate in the country when you only look at the ten provinces and 250 00:20:37.400 --> 00:20:41.880 you exclude the territories, which as you and I know, are have in 251 00:20:41.960 --> 00:20:48.519 particularly high proportion of Aboriginal people living there. It's it's yeah, it's such 252 00:20:48.559 --> 00:20:52.000 a it's such a poor excuse to not include the territorial data. And what 253 00:20:52.119 --> 00:20:57.000 you're doing is you're it's it's a it's a vicious circle there. You're further 254 00:20:57.279 --> 00:21:00.119 the more you marginalize, the more they're gonna I mean, as you know, 255 00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:04.559 the whole idea is it's a self reporting mechanism. Victims have to come 256 00:21:04.599 --> 00:21:08.720 forward and be willing to to to report. And I think, by by 257 00:21:10.119 --> 00:21:15.160 most professional estimates, um, two thirds of crime we're not even aware of. 258 00:21:15.279 --> 00:21:19.680 But the more you alienate the territories, the more they don't report, 259 00:21:21.000 --> 00:21:25.599 the more they're subjected to more and more violence. It's just it's it's a 260 00:21:25.640 --> 00:21:30.039 no win proposition that needs to end. And that's that's why you need to 261 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:33.559 target your services to those who are the most vulnerable, the most needy, 262 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.839 in order to put an end to that spiral, that a circle, and 263 00:21:37.920 --> 00:21:40.839 that I think is something that has to start. Well, I think there's 264 00:21:40.839 --> 00:21:42.759 something has to start with the double government right the way, because one of 265 00:21:42.759 --> 00:21:47.599 my largest, way most irritating points I find is that the Canada has a 266 00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:52.920 responsibility to the unitetations. It's obviously it's it's a moral responsibility, not a 267 00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.240 legal responsibility. But you know, we were behind the creation of the UN 268 00:21:56.279 --> 00:21:59.559 Declaration of Basic Principles of Justice for Victims of Crime and Abuse of Power. 269 00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:03.039 A whole piece on that on victim compensation and that member states, you know, 270 00:22:03.160 --> 00:22:07.880 should make sure that these programs are available. So Canada then has a 271 00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:11.519 responsibility to make sure that across the country these programs are available. And as 272 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:15.559 I said earlier, it's not the case. Why is it that in the 273 00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:19.400 European Union, which is a union of sovereign states, they're able to make 274 00:22:19.480 --> 00:22:25.519 that happen, but we cannot do it in a country like Canada. That 275 00:22:25.559 --> 00:22:27.759 makes no sense. It's the only thing missing, I think his political will 276 00:22:27.839 --> 00:22:33.640 and money to do it. Yeah, well, what's what's going well? 277 00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:36.000 I mean what's going on there? I mean, you touch before on. 278 00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:40.319 We need to be a little suspicious about who benefits when we adapt these this 279 00:22:40.680 --> 00:22:45.480 legislation and policies. So there's there's many contradictions and in a lot of the 280 00:22:45.559 --> 00:22:49.880 legislation in Canada. I mean you cite the Correction and Conditional Release Act, 281 00:22:52.160 --> 00:22:56.519 which all of a sudden wants to introduce, which is called to bring you 282 00:22:56.839 --> 00:23:00.880 the Corrections and Conditional Release Act bringing Fair Earnest to Victims, which is a 283 00:23:00.920 --> 00:23:06.799 little odd in itself because that document really isn't about victims at all. And 284 00:23:07.119 --> 00:23:11.440 then the same thing with the Bill of Rights, the recently adopted Victims Bill 285 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.160 of Rights. It says that all victims rights are guaranteed by the Charter of 286 00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:19.079 Rights and Freedoms. And yet when you go and you look, there's no 287 00:23:19.160 --> 00:23:23.319 mention of victims rights in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, I mean. 288 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:27.119 And so with all these contradictions, it makes it very, very difficult for 289 00:23:27.960 --> 00:23:33.960 a victim or an advocate for victims to navigate the contradictions. Whose job is 290 00:23:33.960 --> 00:23:38.319 it, then, is to sort out this confusion? But part of it's 291 00:23:38.359 --> 00:23:42.119 our job, I think, as as critical citizens to stay aware of these 292 00:23:42.759 --> 00:23:45.279 what's going on at what it means. I mean, clearly, the examples 293 00:23:45.279 --> 00:23:52.480 you're naming were um textbook examples of putting a name on a bill and to 294 00:23:52.599 --> 00:23:56.720 suggest that you're doing something for victims with really not doing anything for victims. 295 00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.880 This goes back to playing lip service for victims that I mentioned earlier, which 296 00:23:59.880 --> 00:24:03.720 is nothing new, not unique to Canada, exists in many countries. Um. 297 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:08.519 Right. The sex offender database in the United States is known as Megan's 298 00:24:08.599 --> 00:24:12.039 Law. Correct, Yeah, right, and and and and you're right, 299 00:24:12.119 --> 00:24:15.880 that's just putting a label on something that is really a tool for law enforcement. 300 00:24:17.599 --> 00:24:21.160 Yes, yes, and to do it under the name of I'm doing 301 00:24:21.200 --> 00:24:23.759 something for victims, aren't I a god good you know, elected representative. 302 00:24:23.960 --> 00:24:26.480 Correct, this is what they do. But at the same time, what 303 00:24:26.480 --> 00:24:30.480 what what victims really need? They're they're not doing anything. Um. So, 304 00:24:30.519 --> 00:24:33.960 for example, you talk about the victims, the lack of enforceable rights 305 00:24:33.960 --> 00:24:37.160 for victims here in Canada, that was a huge concern. There was a 306 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.960 long debate, loss of discussions, lots of papers went over it, and 307 00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:45.480 finally when they came out, they just came out with the document which really 308 00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:48.720 in many ways is nothing more than what was there before. A little bit 309 00:24:48.720 --> 00:24:52.119 more, but nothing more, because you still don't have enforceable rights for victims. 310 00:24:52.000 --> 00:24:56.440 Um. It would have been so easy to just add victims rights to 311 00:24:56.440 --> 00:25:00.039 the criminal Code, as they had done back in the AG with victim impact 312 00:25:00.039 --> 00:25:04.759 statements, make procedural rights that victims at certain moments in the criminal justice process 313 00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:10.079 have a right to information or to consultation. That would have done it, 314 00:25:10.359 --> 00:25:14.960 and and to include then at some measure of you know, what happens when 315 00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:19.400 this doesn't happen? So what are the consequences when victims right access to information, 316 00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.079 for example, is not respected? And there are examples on the plan 317 00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:27.359 that we can find in the United States, for example, where victims have 318 00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:34.359 participatory rights and the you know these it doesn't lead to a mistrial necessarily, 319 00:25:34.400 --> 00:25:37.920 but it can mean that things are put on hold until the victim at least 320 00:25:37.960 --> 00:25:42.680 has an opportunity to exercise their right. So that's that's one of the things 321 00:25:42.680 --> 00:25:45.960 that I argue for, is at least participatory rights for victims because they're not 322 00:25:47.000 --> 00:25:49.920 looking for decision making power. We're not looking to overthrow the criminal justice system 323 00:25:49.960 --> 00:25:52.920 and give all power to victims. And you know that that exists, it's 324 00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:56.039 called civil law. If that's what victims wanted, they would have gone running 325 00:25:56.079 --> 00:26:00.279 to that a long time ago. And they don't because, as I said 326 00:26:00.279 --> 00:26:03.720 before, crime is a violation of victims rights, but it's also an offense 327 00:26:03.759 --> 00:26:07.599 against the state. And that's very important in perception of victims, that that 328 00:26:07.759 --> 00:26:11.000 recognition by the society, by the collection, the group, larger group, 329 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:17.720 that it's wrong what happened, It should never have happened. We don't accept 330 00:26:17.759 --> 00:26:21.359 that in our society. That is valuable. That's very important to victims and 331 00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:25.119 they want that as well. So it's important that it's recognized as a crime 332 00:26:25.279 --> 00:26:30.400 as well as a violation of their individual human rights, and therefore why they 333 00:26:30.839 --> 00:26:37.200 should have some sort of special status other than a mere witness to a crime 334 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:40.400 against the state, Because it wasn't a crime against the state, it was 335 00:26:40.400 --> 00:26:45.920 a crime against them. They experienced it so that it could we could have 336 00:26:45.960 --> 00:26:48.359 done so much more. Unfortunately we haven't, but we can. We might 337 00:26:48.480 --> 00:26:52.480 still get it in the future. I'm optimistic that we can still change the 338 00:26:52.559 --> 00:26:57.599 system and make it more responsive to victims need. So let's let's unpack that 339 00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:03.319 a little bit, Joanne, since since you brought it up, Um, 340 00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:08.680 there are some other examples I think in the international criminal courts and in the 341 00:27:08.759 --> 00:27:15.880 United States more more recently, I mean here in Canada. Um, really 342 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:21.759 that the victims impact on the criminal process comes towards the end that's sentencing to 343 00:27:21.839 --> 00:27:26.640 be able to to to deliver a victims impact statement. But as you say, 344 00:27:27.039 --> 00:27:33.960 there's other examples where you can have a victims have their own legal representative 345 00:27:34.359 --> 00:27:38.640 participating at various stages in the process. And on top of that, all 346 00:27:38.640 --> 00:27:45.599 the literature suggests that that victims don't really want to be the ones making the 347 00:27:45.680 --> 00:27:52.400 decision on what happens to the offender. They're not necessarily looking for punishment and 348 00:27:52.519 --> 00:27:57.960 retribution. What they're looking for is is to simply participate, which seems to 349 00:27:59.000 --> 00:28:04.119 me to be a very unthreatening position. So to turn the corner, what 350 00:28:04.200 --> 00:28:11.240 do you think is so threatening to the Canadian justice system that they have not 351 00:28:11.519 --> 00:28:18.319 made enforceable victims rights part of the bill. That's a great question. It's 352 00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.319 a great paper by edna Is written back in the nineties, Who was Afraid 353 00:28:22.319 --> 00:28:26.680 of the Big Bad Victim? And it's exactly to that point, And that's 354 00:28:26.680 --> 00:28:30.200 it. What are they afraid of? Essentially? I think what we're looking 355 00:28:30.240 --> 00:28:34.759 at at a system because because what the response keeps on is that people the 356 00:28:36.119 --> 00:28:38.200 government will focus on the rights of the offender, and the argument is if 357 00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.279 we limit the frights of the offender, we will be giving rights to victims. 358 00:28:41.440 --> 00:28:45.440 But that's not what it is. If you go back to the origin 359 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:51.480 the history of criminal law, criminal justice process, originally it was like a 360 00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:56.200 civil process. You had the victim versus the accused and there was a judge. 361 00:28:56.359 --> 00:29:00.759 Gradually, the state came to play a bigger role and represent the victim, 362 00:29:00.799 --> 00:29:03.000 to the point where the state completely took over and the victim became a 363 00:29:03.000 --> 00:29:08.000 witness to a crime against the state, as we said, and essentially then 364 00:29:08.000 --> 00:29:12.880 you had this omnipotent state against the accused, a citizen, which is why 365 00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.640 it became so important to introduce rights for the accused, and hence the Bill 366 00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.359 of Rights in Canada and in many countries United States as well, to make 367 00:29:22.400 --> 00:29:27.480 sure to curb, to limit the power of the state, to reduce the 368 00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:33.960 risk of abuses of power. That explains that those rights apply to all of 369 00:29:33.039 --> 00:29:38.119 us and should should not should be respected. They're vital. We don't want 370 00:29:38.119 --> 00:29:41.680 to reduce those rights. What we do want is for the state to take 371 00:29:41.720 --> 00:29:47.279 a step back and say there's room beside me here for the victim. That 372 00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:51.599 it's still the prosecutor plays a major role, but there is room beside them 373 00:29:51.599 --> 00:29:55.599 for the victim or the victim's lawyer. And this is for example, what 374 00:29:55.680 --> 00:29:57.480 we saw, or I saw when I was at the International Criminal Court, 375 00:29:57.839 --> 00:30:03.319 and it was it was fastcinating to watch. It's literally at the table beside 376 00:30:03.319 --> 00:30:07.759 the prosecution, there was a table with the lawyers for victims representing victims, 377 00:30:08.240 --> 00:30:14.400 and they had a voice in the criminal justice process. At different moments. 378 00:30:14.440 --> 00:30:19.279 They could bring in questions, they could raise their concerns. If it was 379 00:30:19.319 --> 00:30:25.519 a legitimate interest of the victims, their client was involved, they had an 380 00:30:25.519 --> 00:30:29.759 opportunity to speak, and it was fascinating just to hear that voice in the 381 00:30:29.799 --> 00:30:33.000 courtroom. It didn't change the decision making process. It was still the judges 382 00:30:33.039 --> 00:30:37.480 who would decide at the end of the day what would happen. But you 383 00:30:37.599 --> 00:30:42.079 heard at least the arguments of the victim's legal representatives. You heard at least 384 00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:45.400 the voice of the victim in that decision making process, and that, as 385 00:30:45.400 --> 00:30:48.119 far as I'm concerned, that makes all the difference. That's what this is 386 00:30:48.160 --> 00:30:52.519 about. So I was quite fascinated by my experiences at the International Criminal Court, 387 00:30:52.680 --> 00:30:59.039 and I think it's something that would be very interesting to see in countries 388 00:30:59.079 --> 00:31:02.640 like Canada. There's also parts you know, in the States to some extent 389 00:31:02.680 --> 00:31:07.359 already with the Crime Victims Rights Act for the at the federal level, at 390 00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:15.039 least victims can as well have legal representation when their right to participate that is 391 00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.559 for information for example, is not respected in the criminal justice process. So 392 00:31:18.839 --> 00:31:23.680 again, an adversarial system where there is an ability for victims to have legal 393 00:31:23.720 --> 00:31:29.039 representation, where they have rights in the criminal justice process. And I think 394 00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:32.720 that's the beginning. If you give victims rights, the rest will follow. 395 00:31:33.240 --> 00:31:36.400 You will see that they can have legal representation, It will be worth while 396 00:31:36.559 --> 00:31:41.440 hiring a loyal to represent their interest in the process, and they will begin 397 00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:47.119 to have a voice, they will begin to be respected and seeing as something 398 00:31:47.160 --> 00:31:51.160 other than a witness to a crime against the state. Well, you know, 399 00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:56.680 it's almost like the critics are fundamentally tripped up, even by the architecture 400 00:31:56.680 --> 00:32:00.799 of the court. I mean, I was in Ottawa last week. I 401 00:32:00.839 --> 00:32:04.079 had a tour of the Supreme Court of Canada. Frankly because I was walking 402 00:32:04.079 --> 00:32:06.759 down the street and somebody said, do you want a free tour? And 403 00:32:06.880 --> 00:32:08.720 why wouldn't I want a free tour? And so yeah, you get in 404 00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:14.240 there, and it's it's a triangle, triangular shape. Yes, there's there's 405 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:16.720 the judge at the head of the triangle, and then there's to the left 406 00:32:16.759 --> 00:32:22.279 and the right there is the defense and the Crown. And that's the way 407 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:27.759 it's set up. And all I think anyone is saying is between the defense 408 00:32:27.839 --> 00:32:32.359 and the Crown have a third bench, which is another legal representative at certain 409 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:39.000 point to express an opinion or a view, or to ask a question, 410 00:32:39.279 --> 00:32:46.480 and I don't see why that is so objectional to the criminal process, well, 411 00:32:46.480 --> 00:32:52.480 the lawyers among us, because it's an adversarial system, what we're saying 412 00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:54.480 already, like I said, an international coming for which is a hybrid court. 413 00:32:54.880 --> 00:33:00.039 And in the inquisitorial procedures that you'll see in France, in the Netherlands 414 00:33:00.640 --> 00:33:05.359 another legal tradition, and there that you can have civil parties and you can 415 00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:08.519 add as many parties as you want in fact to the criminal justice process because 416 00:33:08.799 --> 00:33:15.119 each party there it's inquisitorial, so they direct their communication. It all goes 417 00:33:15.160 --> 00:33:20.440 to the judge. Whereas here in our adversarial which is like a dualistic system, 418 00:33:20.519 --> 00:33:23.079 you have two sides, the crown in the defense, and in between 419 00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:28.640 them the judge that acts almost like a referee, observes and just make sure 420 00:33:28.640 --> 00:33:32.880 that the rules are observed, you know, in this process. So the 421 00:33:34.079 --> 00:33:37.240 argument, by from a legal standpoint is that in this dualistic system, when 422 00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.480 you add a third party, it throws it out of kilter, it throws 423 00:33:40.519 --> 00:33:46.359 it out of balance. So that's a question of you know, law. 424 00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:50.960 Again, you're seeing in many ways that there there's a whole other discussion in 425 00:33:51.039 --> 00:33:58.039 law about um similarities between the inquisitorial and adversarial procedures, and in many ways 426 00:33:58.039 --> 00:34:00.599 they become the growing more and more similar. I think that it would be. 427 00:34:00.720 --> 00:34:04.839 And again we've seen in the United States with the Crime Victims Rights Act, 428 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:12.320 you can add a legal representative for victims without sacrificing the quality of the 429 00:34:12.400 --> 00:34:15.400 procedures or the justicess, you know, the justice that's being sought. At 430 00:34:15.440 --> 00:34:19.719 the end of the day. It would be ridiculous to say the International Criminal 431 00:34:19.760 --> 00:34:24.920 Court is less just because they have standard legal representatives for victims. So there 432 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:30.880 is a way to balance these different concerns. Yes, should want to let's 433 00:34:30.000 --> 00:34:32.960 back it up a bit, because I think we missed a step and I 434 00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:37.920 think it would be fair to to listeners to explain this a little bit. 435 00:34:37.920 --> 00:34:43.440 And that's that's talking about victims needs. The Canadian attorney you cite Alan Young 436 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:50.320 mentions that when when a lot of what we assumed were what victims wanted, 437 00:34:50.679 --> 00:34:57.679 the policies and legislate legislative actions were not based on research, and so a 438 00:34:57.719 --> 00:35:02.360 lot of what was developed was was um on victims needs, was based on 439 00:35:02.719 --> 00:35:09.360 based on stereotypical assumptions. What do victims really want? Well, what's interesting 440 00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:15.239 is growing literature looking at victims needs and comparing them to human needs. Hey, 441 00:35:15.360 --> 00:35:17.599 I don't you probably remember Masilo back in the psychology days that he talks 442 00:35:17.599 --> 00:35:22.960 about is different human needs. Well, philosophers have taken that now further. 443 00:35:22.320 --> 00:35:25.559 Um, But you know, Maslow, what he said is still important, 444 00:35:25.599 --> 00:35:30.519 this idea that we have an iierarchy of needs, some of them are basic 445 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.360 and fundamental for us survival. And what we see is there are a lot 446 00:35:34.400 --> 00:35:39.079 of similarities between what victims talk about in terms of their need um, you 447 00:35:39.119 --> 00:35:44.960 know, need to survive, a financial needs, emotional needs, etc. 448 00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:50.760 Um. And these basic human needs need to feel accepted, need to feel 449 00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:55.320 recognized, validated. Again. So I think that when you draw this comparison 450 00:35:55.400 --> 00:36:00.960 to victims needs and human needs, it shows you the um, you how 451 00:36:00.000 --> 00:36:06.800 fundamental it is for the well being of the individual as well as the well 452 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:10.079 being of society, because I think if we're able to address people's needs, 453 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:15.599 I think will come to a healthier place in our society as well. Yeah, 454 00:36:15.639 --> 00:36:20.719 I think I think a lot of the Canadian literature aligns with what I've 455 00:36:20.760 --> 00:36:23.920 read in the States, particularly coming out of the Vera Institute that basically says 456 00:36:24.159 --> 00:36:29.800 the five things that victims want our answers. They want their voices heard, 457 00:36:30.719 --> 00:36:35.360 they want a sense of control. They want a sense that the repair can 458 00:36:35.480 --> 00:36:40.599 be repair can be restored for the harm where possible, and that what happened 459 00:36:40.599 --> 00:36:44.639 to them won't happened again. And I think that's very basic. No, 460 00:36:44.639 --> 00:36:49.920 no, we're in there is mentioned punishment. Yeah, it's validation really in 461 00:36:49.960 --> 00:36:53.280 many ways, Yes, and that's key, and I think that that opens 462 00:36:53.320 --> 00:36:57.719 it up to a whole new discussion, for example, about repairative justice, 463 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.119 which is another topic I write about in the book. Well, let's talk 464 00:37:00.119 --> 00:37:06.880 about that reparative justice, restorative justice, because it's a very interesting element of 465 00:37:07.000 --> 00:37:10.719 victimology. Yeah. Well, I use the word reparative justice rather than restorative 466 00:37:10.760 --> 00:37:15.639 because one of the things that we saw in victimology was there was a lot 467 00:37:15.679 --> 00:37:20.639 of pushback from victims groups, particularly all about two thousands, we can say, 468 00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:24.519 when restorative justice movement became very, very strong, and they said this 469 00:37:24.599 --> 00:37:30.760 was a offender oriented it was more about offenders than about victims. And I 470 00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:37.119 think that it's important to recognize that the roots of restorative justice are with whether 471 00:37:37.239 --> 00:37:43.000 what's the word offender, people who work with offenders but that there are elements 472 00:37:43.000 --> 00:37:46.840 in it that can be very important and valuable for victims and resonate with victims, 473 00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:51.440 that correspond with victims needs. And I think that we need to have 474 00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:55.400 a victim centered approach to the topic, and that means sometimes using our own 475 00:37:55.440 --> 00:38:00.239 words, our own vocabulary. For example, in restorative justice, there's a 476 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.280 whole discussion about using not talking about crime, but talking about conflict, for 477 00:38:04.280 --> 00:38:07.320 example, and that was something that a lot of victims groups were saying, 478 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:10.400 Hey, but that's offensive, it's a crime, don't don't evaluate it, 479 00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:15.480 because that was very important to them that that recognition of that. I said 480 00:38:15.519 --> 00:38:19.480 it before, that that societal condemnation of an act as something we don't agree. 481 00:38:19.519 --> 00:38:23.000 We don't want that in our society, that kind of behavior. And 482 00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:29.599 so I think that a victim centered approach, we can change our vocabulary. 483 00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:32.920 We don't talk about conflicts necessarily, but we recognize something as a crime. 484 00:38:34.679 --> 00:38:38.840 And so I think that that's good to develop our own victim centered approach to 485 00:38:39.960 --> 00:38:45.119 restorative justice and hence call it something different, to make sure that we're distinct 486 00:38:45.159 --> 00:38:49.840 and we can differentiate between the two. So I talk about reparative justice and 487 00:38:49.920 --> 00:38:53.320 the focus on reparation, and reparation is a broad term can mean many different 488 00:38:53.360 --> 00:38:58.280 things. It can mean financial reparation, which in the legal system we often 489 00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.960 unfortunately see it taking back to it can also largely mean rehabilitation of the victim. 490 00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:07.039 And I think that's where we DW I draw a link at least with 491 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:12.840 the state compensation schemes, victims support, etc. What can we do to 492 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:20.119 help the victim heal well? And that's that's interesting because because as you note, 493 00:39:20.400 --> 00:39:24.559 in a lot of these reparative restorative programs, again they were quickly co 494 00:39:24.760 --> 00:39:32.639 opted by the state as a means for their own self interest with and excuse 495 00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:39.239 me, and by by doing that, totally shafting victims. Yeah, I 496 00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:44.639 mean, why isn't for example, that these compensation schemes you have to buy 497 00:39:44.639 --> 00:39:47.360 and large not sometimes it's two years, but largely it's one year to make 498 00:39:47.360 --> 00:39:52.559 a request. Why talk about for example, victims of sexual assault, it 499 00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:57.280 can take years if ever for them to report it to police. Um So 500 00:39:57.400 --> 00:40:00.719 if I take years before they're at the point where they can a actually ask 501 00:40:00.719 --> 00:40:06.800 realize that what happened to them is a crime and that they may be eligible 502 00:40:06.840 --> 00:40:10.280 for compensation, they may be able to get some sort of help with seeing 503 00:40:10.280 --> 00:40:15.440 a psychologist, for example, because again often we think about these things in 504 00:40:15.519 --> 00:40:19.360 terms of money. All they just want money. Now, in Quebec many 505 00:40:19.400 --> 00:40:23.440 places in Canada, seeing a psychologist is very very difficult, and most people 506 00:40:23.519 --> 00:40:29.039 end up paying for it themselves. It's not easy to pay one hundred and 507 00:40:29.079 --> 00:40:35.800 fifty three hundred dollars an hour. Psychiatrists are included in medical in the Quebec 508 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:38.960 Medicaid the system, but a psychologist is not, and the ones that are 509 00:40:38.960 --> 00:40:45.920 available in the local health public health service are overworked, long waiting lists, 510 00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:50.960 very difficult to see them. So often victims find that they have to have 511 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:55.400 use private services or which then, which is why the compensation is helpful from 512 00:40:55.400 --> 00:40:59.920 the state to pay for those private services if they want to see a psychologist. 513 00:41:00.199 --> 00:41:04.679 We're just talking about a psychologist, not now becoming rich, you know 514 00:41:05.119 --> 00:41:08.480 right. We have to put it in perspective, just for the benefit of 515 00:41:08.480 --> 00:41:14.119 our listeners. When we're talking about the restorative or reparative justice, we're talking 516 00:41:14.159 --> 00:41:22.960 really about a non criminal procedure by which the victim and the offender get together 517 00:41:22.440 --> 00:41:27.960 and there's a mediation process. Yes, that's and this is an alternative to 518 00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:34.480 say or or a compliment in some cases too incarceration. Can you tell us 519 00:41:34.519 --> 00:41:37.960 where this, particularly in some examples, works and where it doesn't work very 520 00:41:38.000 --> 00:41:42.119 well? There are a lot of different ways to do it. What you 521 00:41:42.199 --> 00:41:45.920 said, Mediation is probably the most popular one where people can exit from the 522 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:51.880 criminal justice process and go into a mediation. Victim offender mediation or victim offender 523 00:41:51.960 --> 00:41:57.840 dialogue is another way they say it sometimes um so that they can discuss and 524 00:41:58.000 --> 00:42:02.840 and and and talk about how the crime impact them. And then there's the 525 00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.960 option to go back into the criminal justice system for the punishment or go right 526 00:42:08.000 --> 00:42:13.239 through the criminal justice system and then, for example, once the offender is 527 00:42:13.239 --> 00:42:20.000 in the correctional service to then participate in victim offender dialogue. So there are 528 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:22.440 different ways of doing it. It all depends on where you are and what's 529 00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:28.199 available and where the victim is, because not everyone is immediately ready to meet 530 00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:31.079 the offenders. And again from a victim centered point of view, this type 531 00:42:31.079 --> 00:42:35.960 of dialogue can happen soon after the offense. It could happen years after the 532 00:42:36.000 --> 00:42:39.719 offense. It all depends on where the victim is and whether or not they 533 00:42:40.159 --> 00:42:44.719 want to participate in this say, it's victim centered, replying to their responding 534 00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:50.039 to their needs. And it may be that the victim's not ready to discuss 535 00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:52.559 it with the offender. That that's a big step right away, but it 536 00:42:52.639 --> 00:42:55.559 might be at one point. And one of the most interesting programs I know 537 00:42:55.639 --> 00:43:01.239 is it works with victims of sexual assault, where they it's included in the 538 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:07.440 therapy with victims the possibility of mediation with the offender. Now, if we 539 00:43:07.480 --> 00:43:09.800 know that often sexual assault, we're looking at the victim, as we said, 540 00:43:09.840 --> 00:43:14.280 knows the offender. It might be a family member for example, so 541 00:43:14.320 --> 00:43:20.960 it's someone that person knows well. And the victims who participated in this their 542 00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:24.320 therapists which suggested to them if they felt the victim was ready for it. 543 00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:29.920 And for the victims, they were very very pleased. They were very proud 544 00:43:29.960 --> 00:43:32.639 that their therapist had suggested it because to them it was almost like a milestone 545 00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.960 they had managed to get so far in their healing process that they were able 546 00:43:37.039 --> 00:43:42.320 to the therapist had the belief in them that they were able to confront or 547 00:43:42.599 --> 00:43:46.639 to meet with their offender. And that is one example where I see that 548 00:43:47.000 --> 00:43:52.119 reparative justice can be used in a therapeutic way that's valuable for the victim. 549 00:43:52.159 --> 00:43:54.480 Again, it's not going to work for everyone. It's not going to work 550 00:43:54.480 --> 00:43:58.679 at the same time for everyone. We have to tailor it. It has 551 00:43:58.719 --> 00:44:01.679 to be a voluntary situation ration for the victim and the offender. Two. 552 00:44:01.760 --> 00:44:05.800 We can't force anyone to do this, but I think it's important that we 553 00:44:06.239 --> 00:44:12.039 provide that possibility because right now, the policy in much of Canada is that 554 00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:16.800 when it comes to violence against women, restorative justice or reparative justice off the 555 00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:22.239 table. They won't let it happen. There's a very very strong women's movement 556 00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.880 who's afraid, in particular cases of domestic violence, that after the women's movements 557 00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:30.639 worked so so hard to take domestic violence out of the private sphere and put 558 00:44:30.639 --> 00:44:35.719 it into the public sphere and to criminalize this, that victim offender dialogue would 559 00:44:35.719 --> 00:44:40.199 be a step back and privatizing it again. Well, I can certainly see 560 00:44:40.239 --> 00:44:45.360 that argument and getting back I think you mentioned this, but one of the 561 00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:52.119 examples you mentioned, I think is in northern community communities. The idea of 562 00:44:52.079 --> 00:44:57.639 using a circle sentencing process where I guess the offender, the victim, the 563 00:44:57.760 --> 00:45:01.159 friends and families, the community is even be involved in that, which seems 564 00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:07.000 to be a restorative process. Yes, yes, they're with a circle sentence, 565 00:45:07.039 --> 00:45:12.880 and you go through the entire criminal standard criminal justice process just until after 566 00:45:12.920 --> 00:45:16.440 the conviction and at the moment of determining the sentence. At that point they 567 00:45:16.480 --> 00:45:21.280 open up and they bring input in from the other community members, and that 568 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:22.639 can include the victim as well, where they talk about okay, well, 569 00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:27.239 now that we've the person's been found guilty of this crime, what should we 570 00:45:27.280 --> 00:45:30.519 do about it? That's it. So that's another example of how this works. 571 00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:34.639 But to get back to the I think that it's important to not have 572 00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:40.360 blanket policies excluding reparative justice for certain types of victimization, because I think that's 573 00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:45.280 being very paternalistic. I'm all for protecting victims. We don't want to put 574 00:45:45.280 --> 00:45:51.239 them in situations where they risk the secondary victimization. But to say categorically know 575 00:45:51.800 --> 00:45:55.559 what you want to do is wrong isn't right either. That's another victimization, 576 00:45:55.599 --> 00:46:00.000 and unfortunately that's often what happens. At least one of my students was looking 577 00:46:00.039 --> 00:46:05.599 at restorative justice in cases of serious violent crime, and some of the victims 578 00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:08.679 in Canada and in Belgium and some of the victims were really felt embarrassed, 579 00:46:08.719 --> 00:46:15.440 and sometimes the reactions had been very negative towards them when they expressed an interest 580 00:46:15.519 --> 00:46:19.840 to meet in a mediation setting with the offender. No, I mean, 581 00:46:19.880 --> 00:46:22.119 I can totally understand that. I mean, it's it's not a one size 582 00:46:22.199 --> 00:46:28.800 fits all solution at all. It's so personal that you can't impose on somebody. 583 00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:32.079 If somebody doesn't a victim doesn't want to engage in the process, that's 584 00:46:32.079 --> 00:46:36.360 it. It shouldn't be imposed on them, right, And they think maybe 585 00:46:36.360 --> 00:46:37.920 they want to do it later, that's fine too. They should have that 586 00:46:37.960 --> 00:46:42.280 option of coming back to it because and that's the beauty of reparative justice. 587 00:46:42.280 --> 00:46:45.280 It's flexible. It can be at any moment in the criminal justice process or 588 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:51.320 years afterwards, and that's the beauty of it. And then that it should 589 00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:55.800 be there too. And the idea of giving victims choices as well options is 590 00:46:55.840 --> 00:47:00.719 also very important in their healing process. I mentioned before the example of victims 591 00:47:00.719 --> 00:47:05.960 of sexual violence feeling empowered when they when they realize that they were they were 592 00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:12.360 at a point in their healing process that they could confront their offender um And 593 00:47:12.440 --> 00:47:15.559 just the idea that I can make a choice. I can I can decide 594 00:47:15.599 --> 00:47:20.239 because victimization in many ways is taking the power away from the individual, and 595 00:47:20.840 --> 00:47:24.880 much of their healing process is finding their power back, and by providing them 596 00:47:24.920 --> 00:47:30.559 with options, you're helping them in that healing process rEFInd their sense of control 597 00:47:30.639 --> 00:47:38.480 and power. So in the book, you conclude that that basically we've seen 598 00:47:38.599 --> 00:47:44.280 three approaches to reform. The one is one is what we're just talking about 599 00:47:44.320 --> 00:47:47.760 now as sort of a non criminal proceeding. The other is to improve the 600 00:47:47.840 --> 00:47:53.559 plight um um of victims without changing the system. And you argue that this 601 00:47:53.679 --> 00:48:00.159 fails to this fails because it fails to alleviate the problem of secondary victims victimization. 602 00:48:00.559 --> 00:48:06.559 So the only way forward is changing the status, by which by granting 603 00:48:06.679 --> 00:48:14.840 a procedural rights to victims. So how do you see us moving forward in 604 00:48:14.840 --> 00:48:20.119 that direction? In Canada, crime is the violation of the victim's human rights 605 00:48:20.840 --> 00:48:25.000 as well as an offense against the state. We do that, we're now 606 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:29.920 saying, okay, so now we have a human being and the victim is 607 00:48:29.960 --> 00:48:31.840 a subject, not just an object of the law, not just the person 608 00:48:31.880 --> 00:48:37.599 who will experience something, but now a person with a legal personality who has 609 00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:44.239 a right to be heard in the criminal justice process. I think that it 610 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:46.719 starts with that. Something we've seen in the European Union, for example, 611 00:48:46.760 --> 00:48:52.239 and they're directors from twenty fifteen. They clearly say in the preamble that crime 612 00:48:52.400 --> 00:48:57.559 is a violation of victim's human rights as well as an offense against the state. 613 00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:01.320 And once you've established that, then you um have a You have to 614 00:49:01.360 --> 00:49:07.119 include victims, give them some sort of status in the process other than that 615 00:49:07.159 --> 00:49:13.159 as a witness, and I'll give them participatory rights. Again, if they're 616 00:49:13.159 --> 00:49:16.119 not enforcible rights. We've seen that for the last twenty thirty years. They're 617 00:49:16.119 --> 00:49:22.960 not rights. And I guess the big the big argument that opponents would put 618 00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:29.519 up is, let's take this case. Someone is murdered and the family of 619 00:49:29.559 --> 00:49:36.920 the victim has full participatory rights, and they argue to forgive and exonerate the 620 00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:42.159 murderer, and the state would then argue, well, that may take away 621 00:49:42.159 --> 00:49:45.639 the threat from you, but it doesn't take away the threat to society. 622 00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:51.239 Therefore, victim or victims family, secondary victim, you have no rights. 623 00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.239 No, no, Remember I did an excellent example. Remember, crime is 624 00:49:55.280 --> 00:50:00.000 a violation of the victim's human rights as well as an offense against the state. 625 00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:06.239 So you may very well feel that you can forgive for the violation of 626 00:50:06.280 --> 00:50:09.119 your human rights. However, there still stands the offense against the state, 627 00:50:09.360 --> 00:50:15.119 and that justifies the intervention by the state and the criminal justice process. So 628 00:50:15.159 --> 00:50:17.880 we allow these things in tandem, is what you would be is what we 629 00:50:17.920 --> 00:50:23.000 would be arguing for in the case of allowing the participation of the participation of 630 00:50:23.079 --> 00:50:28.480 victims. Essentially, you have to bear the two in mind, and that's 631 00:50:28.480 --> 00:50:30.320 why you need a role for the prosecutor the state, and you need a 632 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:36.719 role for the victim as well in the ideal situation when you recognize victims as 633 00:50:36.719 --> 00:50:42.760 subjects people before the law. So that I don't think, I mean, 634 00:50:42.760 --> 00:50:45.880 that's the argument. People often say, Oh, but that's completely restorative, 635 00:50:45.920 --> 00:50:50.800 and it's not the two. Again, if we're looking at an offense that 636 00:50:51.039 --> 00:50:54.719 is so minor that we say, you know what, the significance for the 637 00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:59.280 state is not there. If the victim is able to come to an agreement 638 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:01.760 with the offense, or we think it's it's it's fine, and we can 639 00:51:01.840 --> 00:51:05.320 leave it at that. And that's what we often do with young offenders. 640 00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:08.559 And alternative sanctions. That's where restorative justice has been very popular for the last 641 00:51:08.599 --> 00:51:13.920 ten twenty years. Actually in youth courts, yes, right, for example, 642 00:51:14.039 --> 00:51:15.599 and there we seed. So that's exactly what we say. As long 643 00:51:15.639 --> 00:51:19.440 as the victim is able to come to an agreement with the offender, we 644 00:51:19.559 --> 00:51:23.480 as a state of society find a significance. So mine are so unimportant that 645 00:51:23.679 --> 00:51:28.760 we don't think that it necessitates, in addition a reaction by the state that 646 00:51:28.920 --> 00:51:32.239 is enough. And the other extreme is where you say no, it is 647 00:51:32.280 --> 00:51:38.840 so important that regardless of the re evaluation by the victim, we feel as 648 00:51:40.280 --> 00:51:45.159 the state has a responsibility that that has to be recognized and that criminal justice 649 00:51:45.199 --> 00:51:53.519 intervention is required given the gravity the impact on our society. Joanne, I 650 00:51:53.559 --> 00:51:58.920 want to emphasize what a great book this is. I said to you personally, 651 00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:04.760 I think there's some agencies in Canada who will rename remain nameless, who 652 00:52:04.800 --> 00:52:08.159 should just take their content down off their websites and replace it with your book, 653 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:13.199 because I think it's so fantastic and informative, and it's got all the 654 00:52:13.239 --> 00:52:17.079 information in one place. Sometimes you have to do so much rooting around find 655 00:52:17.159 --> 00:52:22.840 this kind of information. Anything In conclusion, you'd you'd like us to have 656 00:52:22.960 --> 00:52:30.880 as a takeaway from from your book and also your work in victimology, recognizing 657 00:52:30.000 --> 00:52:36.679 victims victimization as a violation of victims human rights, give victims enforceable rights, 658 00:52:36.840 --> 00:52:40.079 and and the rest will follow. I think once we have we turn that 659 00:52:40.119 --> 00:52:46.199 page, we're going to be on the road to real change where there is 660 00:52:46.239 --> 00:52:53.480 an appreciation for the victim as well as respect for the criminal justice system and 661 00:52:53.559 --> 00:52:58.639 a real improvement because right now it's disconnected in a way from the reality of 662 00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:01.920 the victims, and the victim suffer as a result. Well, Joe and 663 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.079 I want to thank you so much for joining us today. We we like 664 00:53:07.199 --> 00:53:09.920 to end things with something we call and this is just a fun thing. 665 00:53:09.960 --> 00:53:15.119 It's called like a lightning round. It's to get to know our guest a 666 00:53:15.159 --> 00:53:20.159 little a little better. We've had quite a heavy conversation on victimology, So 667 00:53:20.679 --> 00:53:24.880 just a couple of quick questions and to as I say, to help us 668 00:53:24.920 --> 00:53:30.159 get to know you better. Can you tell our listeners what book you're currently 669 00:53:30.199 --> 00:53:38.199 reading. You've probably got about ten Oh gosh me like you're looking at like 670 00:53:38.400 --> 00:53:42.599 for free time books? Right, sure, yeah, yep, you're so 671 00:53:42.679 --> 00:53:47.239 much reading for work. I have to sign my bed let the camus that 672 00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:51.599 I haven't even gotten further than page one on. But it's one of those 673 00:53:51.599 --> 00:53:54.280 things on my reading list that I've picked up and I keep telling myself I'm 674 00:53:54.280 --> 00:53:58.840 going to be reading, but most of my reading it ends up being for 675 00:53:58.880 --> 00:54:01.079 work. So the last thing is I think on the Handbook of Forgiveness. 676 00:54:01.320 --> 00:54:05.480 I think that was the last thing I sat down and read. Can you 677 00:54:05.519 --> 00:54:09.480 tell us two things that we might not find on your about you on your 678 00:54:09.480 --> 00:54:17.960 LinkedIn profile? Two things that you won't find one even though it's on my 679 00:54:19.039 --> 00:54:24.880 profile anymore? Um, goodness me? Uh got yoga? Yoga? Yes, 680 00:54:25.480 --> 00:54:29.840 discovered yoga three years ago. Let's see, that's one thing. Fantastic 681 00:54:30.360 --> 00:54:32.880 anything there you go? Yoga? Okay, yoga? It is. What 682 00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:37.760 was the first concert you ever saw? The first concert I ever saw? 683 00:54:37.800 --> 00:54:42.840 Oh? Tim Curry? Oh here? Where where was that? Toronto? 684 00:54:44.199 --> 00:54:46.480 Yeah? Toronto? What's it called on Young Front Street? There? Corner 685 00:54:46.480 --> 00:54:50.559 of Front Street and Young Street at that Oh it's still there, the concert 686 00:54:50.559 --> 00:54:52.679 hall? Yeah? I know, yeah, I know, which. Wow, 687 00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:58.159 I am envious. What a great answer. I was thirteen. That's 688 00:54:58.199 --> 00:55:01.440 going back in time. Yeah, do you have a favorite TV show that 689 00:55:01.480 --> 00:55:08.519 you like to binge watch. Right now, it's CNN. I understand that 690 00:55:09.280 --> 00:55:13.599 it's hill. I never used to watch CNN. However the last year that 691 00:55:13.679 --> 00:55:19.639 has changed. It's almost like a reality show. Yes, yes, a 692 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:24.719 very dark reality show. Very dark. Yes' where's your favorite spot to have 693 00:55:24.800 --> 00:55:30.480 lunch in Montreal? There's so many Well this wasn't lunch, this was dinner, 694 00:55:30.519 --> 00:55:31.679 and I have to say I was very impressed. We went to a 695 00:55:31.679 --> 00:55:37.760 place called La Ponton in Griffintown, which is a tasting menu and it was 696 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:42.400 fantastic. It's a little place that you probably will walk by if you don't 697 00:55:42.400 --> 00:55:45.760 have the abbas because the sign isn't even big. But I've looked it up 698 00:55:45.760 --> 00:55:50.000 in advance and we went there. And the name goes back to the rumor 699 00:55:50.119 --> 00:55:53.480 that apparently in that neighborhood, Griffintown is the old Irish working class neighborhood. 700 00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:59.280 Of course that way back in the nineteenth century there was prostitution and whatnot in 701 00:55:59.320 --> 00:56:01.960 that neighborhood and there was a prostitute who have died in that area. Ergo 702 00:56:02.039 --> 00:56:07.639 the fontme the ghosts that still apparently walks the streets anyway, so when you're 703 00:56:07.679 --> 00:56:12.519 there, candles everywhere, lots of atmosphere. But the food was fantastic, 704 00:56:13.039 --> 00:56:19.000 absolutely magnificent. So I would recommend back to anyone the ft Yes, well, 705 00:56:19.360 --> 00:56:23.320 Joanna is the perfect place to end. I thank you so much for 706 00:56:23.920 --> 00:56:30.119 being the guest on the show today and and it's been very informative and and 707 00:56:30.480 --> 00:56:34.559 I hope you have a great afternoon. Thank you, thanks the imitation. 708 00:56:34.679 --> 00:56:49.480 Bye bye. Wow there Sula, So that fan Field exposed a lagwa prison 709 00:56:50.480 --> 00:57:01.719 just being unders still got written. I sets just too much responsive building people 710 00:57:01.920 --> 00:57:15.519 me a baby room and busy Dean Best and Colin Cadre little more. But 711 00:57:15.719 --> 00:57:22.280 Genie always gonna need an object. I'm always like being my geo. And 712 00:57:22.559 --> 00:57:24.679 Rody is pymute your love. I never