WEBVTT

1
00:00:00.320 --> 00:00:05.679
This podcast contains graphic descriptions, explicit
language, and audio clips that may be

2
00:00:05.759 --> 00:00:16.280
disturbing to some audiences. Listener discretion
is advised. Robert Lewis Stevenson wrote a

3
00:00:16.320 --> 00:00:21.600
novella called The Strange Case of Doctor
Jekyll and Mister Hyde. The long and

4
00:00:21.640 --> 00:00:25.440
short of the story, without going
into too much detail, is about a

5
00:00:25.480 --> 00:00:30.480
man with a dual personality. Doctor
Jekyll is a well to do individual and

6
00:00:30.600 --> 00:00:35.600
is supposed to be the representation of
a good person, while mister Hyde is

7
00:00:35.640 --> 00:00:41.000
the pure embodiment of evil. Even
his features. While resembling Doctor Jekyll ever

8
00:00:41.079 --> 00:00:45.399
so slightly, they take on more
of a primitive look. Throughout the story,

9
00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:50.399
Jeckyll tries to keep Hyde at bay, but it proves to be extremely

10
00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:55.240
difficult. This is just fiction and
not facts. Though we know that a

11
00:00:55.320 --> 00:01:00.640
person cannot physically transform into a monster, our features can not drastically change when

12
00:01:00.640 --> 00:01:07.599
our true nature takes hold of us. However, maybe a comparable transformation doesn't

13
00:01:07.599 --> 00:01:12.040
occur on the outside, but on
the inside. And maybe Stevenson never realized

14
00:01:12.079 --> 00:01:17.040
that his tale would have a baseline
of fact. When it comes to the

15
00:01:17.120 --> 00:01:23.719
story we're about to discuss, You're
listening to the Apex and the Abyss,

16
00:01:23.000 --> 00:01:30.560
and this is the story of Colonel
Russell Williams. He was a killer with

17
00:01:30.680 --> 00:01:34.519
the ultimate cover. As a base
commander in the Canadian Air Force, Colonel

18
00:01:34.560 --> 00:01:38.640
Russell Williams comforted families of the fallen, rubbed shoulders with the Prime Minister,

19
00:01:38.840 --> 00:01:42.640
and even flew planes for the Queen, but no one, including his wife,

20
00:01:42.719 --> 00:01:47.120
knew that he was also a sexual, deviant, burglar, rapist,

21
00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:53.519
and murderer. This story's main player
is a man by the name of Russell

22
00:01:53.599 --> 00:01:59.359
Williams. On paper before his crimes
were revealed, Russell was a motivated and

23
00:01:59.400 --> 00:02:05.439
accomplish man. Heard the Canadian Forces
website long before his profile was taken down,

24
00:02:05.719 --> 00:02:10.159
it read Colonel Russ Williams enrolled in
the Canadian Forces in nineteen eighty seven

25
00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:16.159
after obtaining a degree in economics and
political sciences from the University of Toronto.

26
00:02:17.240 --> 00:02:22.800
He received his wings in nineteen ninety
and was a flight instructor for two years

27
00:02:22.840 --> 00:02:28.120
on the CTE one thirty four Beach
Musketeer. By nineteen ninety nine, he

28
00:02:28.199 --> 00:02:32.759
was promoted to major and was a
multi engine pilot career manager from two thousand

29
00:02:32.800 --> 00:02:37.879
and three to two thousand and four, he attended the Canadian Forces Command and

30
00:02:38.039 --> 00:02:43.560
Staff courses and he received a Master's
of Defense Studies from the Royal Military College.

31
00:02:44.240 --> 00:02:49.840
After obtaining this masters, he was
promoted to lieutenant colonel. In January

32
00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:53.159
of two thousand and nine, he
was promoted to colonel after attending the Canadian

33
00:02:53.199 --> 00:02:59.680
Forces Language School for six months.
The final line of his profile reads a

34
00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:05.919
photographer, fisherman, and runner.
Colonel Williams and his wife Mary Elizabeth are

35
00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.439
also avid golfers. But like previously
stated on paper, Russell Williams is a

36
00:03:10.479 --> 00:03:16.400
decorated colonel in the Canadian Forces.
He's well known and respected amongst his colleagues,

37
00:03:16.520 --> 00:03:21.759
peers and subordinates. He was loved
and cherished by his wife. He

38
00:03:21.960 --> 00:03:27.319
seemed like a truly wonderful man.
What no one realized was that Colonel Russell

39
00:03:27.360 --> 00:03:31.360
Williams was leading a double life,
a life filled with stalking, obsession,

40
00:03:31.919 --> 00:03:40.439
fetish and murder. It's a tragedy
and the fact now that this has been

41
00:03:40.479 --> 00:04:01.240
identified as someone who might be Russell
william was born in England on March seventh,

42
00:04:01.360 --> 00:04:06.919
nineteen sixty three, to Christine and
Cedric Williams. Russell's father would accept

43
00:04:08.000 --> 00:04:13.039
a job at Chalk River Laboratories in
Chalk River, Ontario, in Canada,

44
00:04:13.400 --> 00:04:17.680
which prompted the family to emigrate to
the Great White North. Not long after

45
00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:21.959
the family moved, the Williams welcomed
another son named Harvey into the world.

46
00:04:23.439 --> 00:04:28.000
An odd situation occurred when Russell was
a young boy after his family had moved

47
00:04:28.040 --> 00:04:32.279
to Canada. His parents would befriend
the Sofkus family. Doctor Jerrysofkas and his

48
00:04:32.279 --> 00:04:36.279
wife would get close to Cedric and
Christine So much though, that when Russell's

49
00:04:36.360 --> 00:04:41.360
parents divorced when he was just six
years old, his mother would begin dating

50
00:04:41.360 --> 00:04:46.439
and eventually marry Jerrysofkas, he had
divorced his wife as well. Russell felt

51
00:04:46.439 --> 00:04:50.439
a close bond with his new stepfather. He would even for a time take

52
00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:57.800
Jerry's last name and become Russ Sofka's. When it comes to Russell's childhood,

53
00:04:57.879 --> 00:05:01.000
this is just about the most significant
thing to occur. From all accounts.

54
00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:06.839
He grew up in a healthy and
happy home. Russell's mother and stepfather traveled

55
00:05:06.839 --> 00:05:12.519
frequently for work while he was in
high school. He would eventually get enrolled

56
00:05:12.560 --> 00:05:15.639
in a boarding school to complete his
education. While his parents were in South

57
00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:19.279
Korea. He did spend a year
abroad with them, but he would later

58
00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:25.240
state that the experience was not pleasant. Later, at the boarding school back

59
00:05:25.240 --> 00:05:30.319
in Canada, Russell thrived. He
was even made a prefect during his last

60
00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:34.839
year of school. Allegedly, Russell
tended to keep to himself by just playing

61
00:05:34.879 --> 00:05:40.519
his trumpet or study for his classes
at boarding school. Despite the fact that

62
00:05:40.560 --> 00:05:45.160
he received good grades, he seemed
to be a loner. After Russell graduated

63
00:05:45.199 --> 00:05:49.079
from high school, he enrolled at
the University of Toronto again. While at

64
00:05:49.079 --> 00:05:55.920
the university, he excelled academically.
He majored in economics and political sciences and

65
00:05:56.000 --> 00:06:00.959
received high marks in his classes.
It seemed that going to college changed Russell.

66
00:06:00.319 --> 00:06:04.839
Russell would state that during this time
he was mischievous and a practical joker.

67
00:06:05.199 --> 00:06:10.680
He loved playing pranks on people,
but his roommate would sing a different

68
00:06:10.720 --> 00:06:14.279
tune. In the beginning, when
Russell first arrived at the school, he

69
00:06:14.360 --> 00:06:18.160
was rigid and cold, but something
shifted. He became more lighthearted and decided

70
00:06:18.199 --> 00:06:23.800
to try and be a part of
a group verses on the outside. During

71
00:06:23.839 --> 00:06:28.480
his time in college, Russell also
went back to calling himself Russell Williams.

72
00:06:29.079 --> 00:06:32.480
However, the reasoning behind this is
unknown. Perhaps because he was trying to

73
00:06:32.519 --> 00:06:36.639
evolve into a different person, he
wanted to change everything down to his name,

74
00:06:38.000 --> 00:06:42.079
a new persona. Perhaps some of
the pranks that Russell would play on

75
00:06:42.160 --> 00:06:45.759
people wouldn't give a person a second
thought, but what we would later find

76
00:06:45.759 --> 00:06:51.000
out about Russell it gives off a
different feeling. One particular prank sticks out.

77
00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:57.399
One evening, Russell's roommate arrived back
to their room late in the evening.

78
00:06:57.720 --> 00:07:01.000
Russell hid in the closet and waited. His roommate sat at his desk

79
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:05.480
and began to study. The roommate
would later state that he was sitting there

80
00:07:05.519 --> 00:07:10.360
for at least a half hour before
Russell came bursting out of the closet,

81
00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:15.920
effectively scaring the Bejesus out of his
friend. Again, this seems fun and

82
00:07:15.040 --> 00:07:20.759
innocent, but could it be a
precursor to what Russell would become. During

83
00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:25.680
his time in school, it was
noted that Russell's family was not a big

84
00:07:25.759 --> 00:07:30.920
part of his life. His biological
father had moved to the US for work,

85
00:07:30.040 --> 00:07:35.639
and his stepfather and mother worked often
in Korea. His roommate recalls bringing

86
00:07:35.720 --> 00:07:40.759
up his parents divorce and that it
was a painful topic for Russell to speak

87
00:07:40.759 --> 00:07:45.160
about, as it typically would be
for most children coming from that type of

88
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:49.639
situation. Also, during college,
Russell would have a girlfriend, but when

89
00:07:49.639 --> 00:07:56.160
the relationship ended, he was incredibly
heart broken and sullen. He would attempt

90
00:07:56.199 --> 00:07:59.879
to win her affections back, but
it would be no use. He would

91
00:07:59.920 --> 00:08:03.360
begin going to her classes and following
her around campus. It got to the

92
00:08:03.439 --> 00:08:07.160
point where she had to speak to
his roommate to get him to stop.

93
00:08:09.040 --> 00:08:13.240
By nineteen eighty seven, Russell Williams
joined the Canadian Forces and in nineteen ninety

94
00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.680
he received his flying wings. Soon
thereafter, he would go to Manitoba and

95
00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:24.240
be a flight instructor for two years. During this time, Russell would find

96
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:28.959
love again. He would meet and
become involved with a woman named Mary Elizabeth

97
00:08:28.000 --> 00:08:33.720
Harriman. The pair would wed in
nineteen ninety one. Within the same year,

98
00:08:33.000 --> 00:08:37.919
Russell would rise to the rank of
captain. Russell's time in the military

99
00:08:39.039 --> 00:08:45.480
was nothing short of spectacular. He
flew numerous successful missions and received promotion after

100
00:08:45.519 --> 00:08:50.720
promotion. He was respected and adored
by those who knew him. He was

101
00:08:50.759 --> 00:08:56.240
a star military official and nothing was
in his Way. By nineteen ninety nine,

102
00:08:56.240 --> 00:09:01.879
he was promoted to major and was
transferred to to be a multi engine

103
00:09:01.919 --> 00:09:05.600
pilot career manager. A few years
later, in two thousand and four,

104
00:09:05.879 --> 00:09:11.720
he would don the title of Lieutenant
colonel and become the commanding officer of the

105
00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:18.080
four thirty seven Transport Squadron at the
Canadian Forces Base in Trenton. By two

106
00:09:18.120 --> 00:09:22.279
thousand and nine, Russell Williams would
become commander of the eight Wing Trenton.

107
00:09:22.600 --> 00:09:26.480
From two thousand and four to two
thousand and nine, Russell would fly relief

108
00:09:26.519 --> 00:09:31.519
workers to the Gulf Coast to help
people affected by Hurricane Katrina. He would

109
00:09:31.559 --> 00:09:35.759
work a secret mission on the Persian
Gulf, and he would even fly Queen

110
00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:43.200
Elizabeth the Second and Prince Philip while
they visited Canada. Besides his thriving career,

111
00:09:43.360 --> 00:09:48.039
Russell's personal life was also splendid.
He and his wife upted to not

112
00:09:48.120 --> 00:09:50.519
have children, so it was just
the two of them, and they appeared

113
00:09:50.559 --> 00:09:56.559
to be very happy. They shared
similar interests and hobbies. They were always

114
00:09:56.559 --> 00:10:01.399
seen showing each other affection and smiling, the appear arts of a very healthy

115
00:10:01.519 --> 00:10:05.679
and balanced couple. In December of
two thousand and nine, the couple had

116
00:10:05.720 --> 00:10:11.720
purchased Mary Elizabeth's dream home in Ottawa, something that Russell was ecstatic to give

117
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:16.360
her. Russell still worked at the
base in Trenton during this time, which

118
00:10:16.399 --> 00:10:20.440
was an almost three hour drive from
Ottawa, so to ease the burden of

119
00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:24.480
his travel, Russell and his wife
had purchased a home in Tweed, Ontario,

120
00:10:26.000 --> 00:10:31.559
which is only about forty five minutes
away from Russell's base. Russell would

121
00:10:31.600 --> 00:10:35.399
spend the week at his cottage and
Tweed, and then on the weekends he

122
00:10:35.440 --> 00:10:39.679
would either drive to Trenton to spend
with his wife, or Mary Elizabeth would

123
00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:43.879
go to the cottage on the weekends. Not a typical or ideal scenario,

124
00:10:43.080 --> 00:10:48.240
but one net worked for them.
They were extremely successful within their careers and

125
00:10:48.480 --> 00:10:54.120
very busy, so this schedule worked
for them and despite the long distance and

126
00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:58.919
the separation, they were still very
happy. However, this allowed Russell to

127
00:11:00.080 --> 00:11:05.039
have copious amounts of a lone time
time in which he used to stalk and

128
00:11:05.200 --> 00:11:09.480
burglarize from homes. From two thousand
and seven to two thousand and ten,

129
00:11:09.799 --> 00:11:16.120
Russell Williams would commit unthinkable crimes as
he was continuing on his trajectory of a

130
00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:24.039
rising military star. He was also
breaking and burglarizing homes in his surrounding area,

131
00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:28.120
but what he stole and the acts
he did within these homes is what

132
00:11:28.320 --> 00:11:33.320
makes him unique. Williams would wait
until he was covered by the darkness of

133
00:11:33.399 --> 00:11:39.159
night before he would creep along the
side of homes, sometimes while he himself

134
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:43.919
would be undressed. His voyeurism seems
to be the cornerstone of all of this.

135
00:11:45.679 --> 00:11:50.200
It is unclear how long he was
an active voyer. It seems odd

136
00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.919
and somewhat unlikely that he would begin
doing such things in his forties, but

137
00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:58.600
regardless, this is what we know
about him. Soon Russell would break into

138
00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.759
home when the occupants weren't there,
and he would steal the underwear of the

139
00:12:03.879 --> 00:12:09.080
female residence. He would even steal
the underwear of a nine year old girl.

140
00:12:09.240 --> 00:12:13.120
What Russell would also do would be
to document the things he did within

141
00:12:13.200 --> 00:12:18.960
the home in his journal and by
taking photographs of himself. In some photographs,

142
00:12:20.000 --> 00:12:22.759
he can be seen masturbating on the
bed of a young girl. As

143
00:12:22.799 --> 00:12:28.879
if this wasn't terrifying and disgusting enough. Sometimes Russell would even leave notes for

144
00:12:28.960 --> 00:12:33.519
his victims. On one girl's computer, he simply wrote Marcy after he stole

145
00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:39.639
her underwear and rummaged through her room. Once Russell had taken the undergarments,

146
00:12:39.639 --> 00:12:43.399
he photographed himself wearing them, as
well as performing sexual acts in them.

147
00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:48.519
His compulsion to break in and steal
the personal effects of women was insatiable.

148
00:12:50.440 --> 00:12:54.399
He would spend his nights repeatedly breaking
into the homes of his neighbors. Sometimes

149
00:12:54.399 --> 00:12:58.720
he would take nothing at all,
and other times he would steal all the

150
00:12:58.919 --> 00:13:03.240
articles of underwear belonging to women in
the home, and also things like sex

151
00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:09.679
toys. Russell's perversion was growing almost
as quickly and largely as his list of

152
00:13:09.759 --> 00:13:15.200
victims he was accumulating. In Ottawa
and Tweed, authorities were well aware that

153
00:13:15.240 --> 00:13:18.879
they had a serial burglar on their
hands, one that had a clear fetish

154
00:13:18.919 --> 00:13:26.519
for undergarments. He was becoming infamous
and known as the Tweed Creeper. However,

155
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:30.320
at this time, there was not
a connection between the incidents happening in

156
00:13:30.360 --> 00:13:37.200
Ottawa and in Tweed. Not yet
anyway. By two thousand and nine,

157
00:13:37.279 --> 00:13:41.240
Russell's need to do more than steel
underwear and commit perverted sexual acts in the

158
00:13:41.360 --> 00:13:48.120
rooms of the homes he burglarized finally
came to a boiling point. In September

159
00:13:48.159 --> 00:13:50.320
of two thousand and nine, Russell
would break into the home of a sleeping

160
00:13:50.360 --> 00:13:56.799
woman and her infant child. Russell
would beat this woman while her child slept,

161
00:13:56.080 --> 00:14:01.519
and repeatedly raped her over the course
of two hours. Within the same

162
00:14:01.559 --> 00:14:05.600
month, he would commit a similar
crime while he was in Ottawa. During

163
00:14:05.639 --> 00:14:11.080
both assaults, Russell would bind the
woman's hands and he would also take photos

164
00:14:11.080 --> 00:14:16.440
of them throughout the duration of the
attack. Two months later, in November

165
00:14:16.480 --> 00:14:20.759
of two thousand and nine, Russell
Williams would commit his first murder. He

166
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:26.600
would break into the home of an
acquaintance named Marie Franz Como. The pair

167
00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:31.559
had met on a flight that they
were both working on and briefly spoke to

168
00:14:31.600 --> 00:14:35.720
one another. During this break in, Russell would brutally beat and rape Marie

169
00:14:35.840 --> 00:14:41.679
Franz. She fought him as hard
as she could, but eventually he would

170
00:14:41.679 --> 00:14:46.759
suffocate her to death by placing duct
tape on her mouth and nose. At

171
00:14:46.759 --> 00:14:50.600
the end of January in two thousand
and ten, Russell would break into the

172
00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:56.279
home of twenty seven year old Jessica
Lloyd. Similarly to his attack on Marie

173
00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:00.320
Franz, Russell would beat and rape
Jessica, but instead of leaving her in

174
00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:03.919
her home, he would force her
to come with him back to his home

175
00:15:03.960 --> 00:15:07.600
and Tweed. While in Tweed,
Russell would continue to assault Jessica. She

176
00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:13.000
tried to be as compliant as possible
in the hopes that he would release her.

177
00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:16.399
He had covered her eyes with duct
tape, so she had not seen

178
00:15:16.480 --> 00:15:22.639
his face. Unfortunately, Russell had
other intentions. He would beat Jessica over

179
00:15:22.679 --> 00:15:26.840
the head with a flashlight and then
suffocate her to death. He would leave

180
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.759
her body in his garage at his
home and Tweed before heading to work for

181
00:15:30.799 --> 00:15:35.399
the day, and then spending the
weekend in Ottawa with his wife. When

182
00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.840
he finally returned to his cottage and
Tweed, he would gather Jessica's body and

183
00:15:39.000 --> 00:15:43.639
dump her in a wooded area.
At this point, Russell is confident that

184
00:15:43.679 --> 00:15:48.440
he will never be caught. He
has gotten away with salacious crimes over numerous

185
00:15:48.519 --> 00:15:52.840
years, and now he had committed
two murders with no end to his crimes

186
00:15:52.840 --> 00:16:00.559
in sight. Thankfully, he was
wrong about that. Jessica Lloyd's had not

187
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:06.759
been found, so her case was
considered a disappearance. The Ontario Provincial Police

188
00:16:07.159 --> 00:16:11.759
or the OPP were doing everything in
their power to try and find Jessica.

189
00:16:11.200 --> 00:16:17.480
What they initially discovered by her house
were unique tire treads, so the OPP

190
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:22.399
put in place a canvas of any
motorist who used the highway by Jessica's home.

191
00:16:22.120 --> 00:16:26.759
On February fourth, two ten,
around six am, Russell Williams was

192
00:16:26.799 --> 00:16:32.720
stopped while driving his Nissan Pathfinder,
the same vehicle he used the knight of

193
00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.720
Jessica's abduction. During his stop,
Russell tried to speed up the process by

194
00:16:37.759 --> 00:16:41.600
saying he was on his way home
due to his young child being sick or

195
00:16:41.639 --> 00:16:45.200
something along those lines. Whatever excuse
he gave, it didn't matter. The

196
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:51.159
OPP noted that his tire treads were
unique and they matched the tracks found near

197
00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:56.679
Jessica's home. His vehicle also matched
the one scene by witnesses on the night

198
00:16:56.759 --> 00:17:03.400
Jessica was abducted. These facts got
the opp's attention. Russell Williams would be

199
00:17:03.440 --> 00:17:08.359
brought in for questioning on February seventh, two thou and ten. What you're

200
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:14.960
about to hear are excerpts from that
interrogation with OPP Detective Sergeant Jim Smith.

201
00:17:17.880 --> 00:17:19.039
All Right, and again, um, like I said, this interview is

202
00:17:19.079 --> 00:17:23.440
gonna be very thorough. But again, I have a simple rule when I

203
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.799
talk to people, it's I'm sure
you're the same way I treat everybody with

204
00:17:26.839 --> 00:17:29.640
respect. I don't want to ask
you if you do the same for me.

205
00:17:30.359 --> 00:17:33.160
Um, So what we're gonna do
is we're gonna start off by going

206
00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:37.200
through what your rights are, Okay, just like everybody else. Okay,

207
00:17:37.799 --> 00:17:40.839
UM, if ever been read your
rights before, I'm sure you've seen on

208
00:17:40.880 --> 00:17:42.279
TV you whole bunch of times.
But that's usually the American version. So

209
00:17:42.720 --> 00:17:47.799
I'll go with you briefly. Okay. Basically in Canada, as you know

210
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:51.559
I'm sure is we all have our
rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and

211
00:17:51.599 --> 00:17:55.279
Freedoms. Okay, Now, Russell, just to avoid any confusion, because

212
00:17:55.319 --> 00:17:57.079
people do get confused when they're talking
to you by the police, is that

213
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:03.160
you're obviously now under arrest here today. Okay. Anytime you feel you want

214
00:18:03.160 --> 00:18:04.440
to leave here, you feel free
to do so. The door's not locked,

215
00:18:04.519 --> 00:18:10.039
Resoli, walking down to lobby anytime
you want. Okay. If there's

216
00:18:10.079 --> 00:18:12.519
anything that comes up on our interview
today, Russell, that that you feel

217
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:17.440
you want to talk to a lawyer
about. Um, you just you just

218
00:18:17.519 --> 00:18:19.000
let me know, okay, And
the reason for that is I want to

219
00:18:19.000 --> 00:18:25.599
explain to you exactly what's going on
here, okay, Um, Jessica Lloyd

220
00:18:26.240 --> 00:18:32.559
is is one of four cases that
we're currently investigating, okay. And essentially

221
00:18:32.559 --> 00:18:38.359
what's happened is over the past about
four or five months, there have been

222
00:18:38.839 --> 00:18:42.200
four occurrences that, like I said, that we're looking into. Two of

223
00:18:42.200 --> 00:18:47.400
those occurrences occurred in September of two
thousand and nine, and very briefly,

224
00:18:47.440 --> 00:18:52.880
they were up in the Tweed area. They involved somebody entering two different women's

225
00:18:52.920 --> 00:19:00.079
houses in the evening hours and committing
sexual acts. Okay. In November two

226
00:19:00.079 --> 00:19:07.119
thousand and nine, young lady by
the name of Marie Franz Como, Yeah,

227
00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.799
was found murdered in your home and
bright and we believe that there was

228
00:19:11.839 --> 00:19:17.119
a sexual component to that crime as
well. And then most recently we have

229
00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:21.400
Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So
essentially, when you're looking at those kind

230
00:19:21.400 --> 00:19:25.200
of crimes, we're looking at a
number of different potential criminal charges, all

231
00:19:25.240 --> 00:19:29.119
right. We're looking at issues all
the way from the most serious one,

232
00:19:29.160 --> 00:19:33.400
which is first to re murder,
kidnapping, sexual assault, break and enter

233
00:19:33.440 --> 00:19:40.039
with intent to commit sexual assault,
forcible confinement. Okay, And so what

234
00:19:40.039 --> 00:19:41.119
I don't want to make sure you
understand and who is what we're doing with

235
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:45.960
everybody've been talking to, is that
clearly, when we find out who's responsible

236
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:48.599
for one or all of those crimes, they could be charged with one or

237
00:19:48.640 --> 00:19:52.720
all of those offenses. Okay,
whether it's you or whether it's anybody else.

238
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:56.039
Right, And that's why it's important
that we make sure that people understand

239
00:19:56.119 --> 00:19:59.119
what they have to do and what
they don't have to do when they're talking

240
00:19:59.119 --> 00:20:02.559
to us. Okay. So,
as I said, before any point today

241
00:20:03.039 --> 00:20:04.440
you feel the need you want to
speak to a lawyer, you let me

242
00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:07.799
know and we can take you to
a room where you can do that in

243
00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.759
private. Okay. Do you have
your own lawyer, a reality lawyer?

244
00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:18.599
Okay? All right, If at
any point you want to make that call

245
00:20:18.759 --> 00:20:22.119
and you don't know who to call, we have a phone list of lawyers

246
00:20:22.160 --> 00:20:23.960
that are available to give you advice
free of charge, right over the phone.

247
00:20:25.200 --> 00:20:26.680
Okay. So again, if at
any point today you want to take

248
00:20:26.680 --> 00:20:30.559
advantage of that, you just let
me know. Is there any reason you

249
00:20:30.599 --> 00:20:34.039
want to call a lawyer? Now
okay. A couple other fairly simple and

250
00:20:34.079 --> 00:20:37.960
straightforward the things that you probably understand, but again we go over them to

251
00:20:38.000 --> 00:20:41.279
make sure everybody's clear. Is it. You don't have to speak to you

252
00:20:41.400 --> 00:20:45.200
today, okay. And the reason
for that is because the law considers me

253
00:20:45.240 --> 00:20:48.680
to be what we refer to as
a person in authority okay, probably similar

254
00:20:48.680 --> 00:20:52.119
to what you may be considered to
be on the base. And because of

255
00:20:52.160 --> 00:20:56.400
that, I can be compelled to
appear before any judge in the country basically

256
00:20:56.440 --> 00:20:59.839
to account for what takes place here
today between you and I. Kay.

257
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.759
And that's the reason why everything's recorded, because there can't be any more accurate

258
00:21:03.759 --> 00:21:07.359
record than that, right. So, And the other thing I want to

259
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.119
make sure you understand is that you
know you mentioned a second ago about Miss

260
00:21:11.200 --> 00:21:18.279
Coomo being one of your work associates. So I don't know what's happened since

261
00:21:18.359 --> 00:21:22.839
November on the military side of things. But what we want to make people

262
00:21:22.839 --> 00:21:26.640
clear on is that if you have
been spoken to by any person authority or

263
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.480
any police officer about any of those
cases, I don't want what they may

264
00:21:30.480 --> 00:21:34.279
have said to you to make you
feel influence or compelled to say anything to

265
00:21:34.319 --> 00:21:37.160
me. Today. Okay. Whatever
you might have felt the influence or compelled

266
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:40.440
to say to them earlier, you
don't have to repeat it to me,

267
00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:44.480
and you don't have to say anything
further. Throughout the interrogation, Russell has

268
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:49.079
his arms tightly crossed on his chest. The detective asks him about his whereabouts

269
00:21:49.200 --> 00:21:56.799
during the night of Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. So, just getting back to these

270
00:21:56.839 --> 00:22:00.559
four incidents that we're talking about,
maybe you could just give me a little

271
00:22:00.559 --> 00:22:04.400
bit of history as to uh,
your arrival in the in the base in

272
00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:10.119
Trenton, When did you start working
there? Friday? On the day I

273
00:22:10.240 --> 00:22:22.640
was m Friday on the day I
was at home most most of the day

274
00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.720
I had a star a stomach food
okay in Ottawa or tweeting tweet and tweet

275
00:22:27.000 --> 00:22:36.119
okay. Uh So with backtrack,
then, so all day Friday you're at

276
00:22:36.119 --> 00:22:40.640
home and then what time do you
leave to go to the base to sleep

277
00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:48.160
there on the Friday night? Um
M, I'm not sure. Probably just

278
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.960
you know, waiting for just before
bad They're probably that tweeted between eight and

279
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:57.359
nine or so, okay, um
And you get to the base and spend

280
00:22:57.400 --> 00:23:00.799
the evening there and get up for
the five Yeah, okay, so we

281
00:23:00.960 --> 00:23:07.799
backtracked from there. Um, you
when did you arrive at your home at

282
00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:11.200
the cottage? I wonder I want
to get confused between your home and Ottawa

283
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:15.039
and the home I have been in
Tweet a week? Yeah, the week

284
00:23:15.240 --> 00:23:23.240
prior now, Um, yeah,
I think that's the case. Didn't tweet

285
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:30.720
a week? Flu? Saturday?
Saturday? Okay? So um, if

286
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:34.000
you didn't have the stomach flu on
the Friday, what was your schedule that

287
00:23:34.079 --> 00:23:41.759
day? Okay? Um? What
wouldn't do my schedules just to standard schedule

288
00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:51.640
in the office. Okay, so
brief in the morning A couple of weeks,

289
00:23:52.079 --> 00:23:57.279
I can't remember what okay, So, um, Thursday night you slept

290
00:23:57.279 --> 00:24:02.759
at Tweet or you? Yeah?
All right? And what did you Thursday?

291
00:24:02.839 --> 00:24:04.359
During the day? Thursday? During
the day, I was at the

292
00:24:04.359 --> 00:24:11.359
base. Again, Um, I
think it was a very standard day.

293
00:24:11.400 --> 00:24:18.640
I can't recall exactly, but yeah, it was not a fun So I

294
00:24:18.680 --> 00:24:21.279
was in the base, so I
would have gone in early in the morning

295
00:24:21.279 --> 00:24:22.640
back in the evening. Again,
okay, do you remember what time you

296
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:33.319
left the base at mate? I
don't remember anything peculiar, so I would

297
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:40.240
say I don't know, probably seven
to nine, somewhere in that range.

298
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.200
That's when you left the base and
what it was forty five minute transits,

299
00:24:45.200 --> 00:24:48.319
forty five minutes home. Okay,
okay, yeah, I'm not not going

300
00:24:48.359 --> 00:24:49.440
to walk you through November, but
I'm going to take you to a date

301
00:24:49.440 --> 00:24:56.119
that's probably pretty fashion your mind.
The day that that re Frons call Um,

302
00:24:56.359 --> 00:24:59.240
do you remember how you found out? I was sent an email.

303
00:25:03.119 --> 00:25:08.119
Well, as soon as the off
staff in the base learned. Okay,

304
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:11.440
so I got an email. I
can't remember if it was late at night

305
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.440
or in the morning. It was
certainty I saw it. I wannestly first

306
00:25:15.480 --> 00:25:19.920
thing in the morning because I had
just come back from Ottawa. Authorities know

307
00:25:21.039 --> 00:25:23.799
that Russell is involved in some way, but during the beginning of the interview,

308
00:25:23.839 --> 00:25:27.640
he remained firm that he did not
know Jessica Lloyd and had only met

309
00:25:27.720 --> 00:25:33.720
Marie Franz once. Russell most likely
was confident that he would get away with

310
00:25:33.799 --> 00:25:37.240
his crimes, so much though,
that he willingly agreed to give up his

311
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:42.960
DNA and even his shoes to have
them molded for a print. What would

312
00:25:42.960 --> 00:25:48.279
you be willing to give me today
to help me move past you in this

313
00:25:48.359 --> 00:25:56.039
investigation? What do you need?
Well, would you be willing to supply

314
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.759
things like fingerprints, blood samples,
things like that? Yeah, ok footwear

315
00:26:00.799 --> 00:26:07.359
impressions, yeah, Okay. One
thing that Russell asked the detective is that

316
00:26:07.440 --> 00:26:11.519
he give him some discretion. He
doesn't want people to know he is there

317
00:26:11.559 --> 00:26:18.039
and being questioned about these crimes.
Can I assume you're going to be discreet?

318
00:26:18.960 --> 00:26:25.880
It's possible, Yeah, because I
have a very significant impact on the

319
00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:32.720
basis well Bottle and Russell. That's
one of the reasons we're hearing a Sunday

320
00:26:32.720 --> 00:26:37.640
afternoon. The military certainly be a
great assistance to us, especially in a

321
00:26:37.720 --> 00:26:41.680
relation to Miss Colwell's investigation. So
that's certainly one of the things that went

322
00:26:41.720 --> 00:26:45.240
into our decision to give you a
call at home day and see if we

323
00:26:45.240 --> 00:26:51.400
could deal with us today. Detective
Jim Smith keeps pushing Russell, asking him

324
00:26:51.440 --> 00:26:56.640
if he has any relations to the
victims whatsoever. This is a significant investigation,

325
00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:02.279
as you can as as you can
well imagine um that that DNA is

326
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:07.200
going to be significant in our investigation, both you know, quite possibly to

327
00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:08.920
help you, quite possibly to help
us. I don't know yet, I

328
00:27:08.920 --> 00:27:15.240
don't know we resulted yet and I'll
go back to the example I gave you

329
00:27:15.279 --> 00:27:19.079
because it's a very similar issue,
I think. And you talked about the

330
00:27:19.119 --> 00:27:23.960
idea of discretion here. Okay,
you talked about the idea that, um,

331
00:27:26.200 --> 00:27:29.759
you know, I think hopefully you
appreciate the fact of how we approach

332
00:27:29.839 --> 00:27:36.839
you here and essentially we have no
issues with that. Okay, we talked

333
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:38.759
recently about, you know, the
whole idea of any unusual sex acts of

334
00:27:38.839 --> 00:27:45.119
your history. But another thing can
often happen in cases like this is the

335
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:52.960
people become concerned about things like extra
mertal fears, indiscretions along those lines.

336
00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.680
Is there any contact that you may
have had with any of those for women

337
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.079
that you may not want your wife
to be aware of, anything like that

338
00:28:06.079 --> 00:28:11.519
that we should know about to try
and explain why if if your DNA is

339
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:17.039
found, it would help us understand
why it may be. They're absolutely Can

340
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:21.559
you think of any reason, um, why we would find your DNA ana

341
00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:23.640
of load residences? Let's let's focus
on well, for instance, uh,

342
00:28:25.160 --> 00:28:26.400
I believe, let me just check
the name there and make sure about the

343
00:28:26.480 --> 00:28:30.759
right eyels. Talking about the house. It was just a couple of doors

344
00:28:30.759 --> 00:28:34.079
down from you there and in tweet
A couple of doors down, Lea.

345
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:37.960
I don't know her last name.
I don't know Maskati. I don't even

346
00:28:37.960 --> 00:28:44.759
know if your last name is.
But there's the woman down the road,

347
00:28:45.400 --> 00:28:48.920
three doors down. Her name is
I would just make sure we're on the

348
00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:57.839
same page. Here my understanding.
If she lived at the seventy six cozy

349
00:28:57.880 --> 00:29:00.440
Cove. Yeah, so she would
be the one, the second one,

350
00:29:02.680 --> 00:29:04.480
the second incident on your on your
road. There a couple of doors down.

351
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:11.519
I've ever been in your house.
No, we met her once.

352
00:29:11.599 --> 00:29:18.799
I think the first summer. You
were okay. And that's what I'm getting

353
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:23.279
at. I again, this is
a credibility issue right now, because I

354
00:29:23.319 --> 00:29:26.279
don't want to come and see you
two weeks from now and say, you

355
00:29:26.359 --> 00:29:30.839
know rust our CSI people in that
house, and are you familiar with Holsey

356
00:29:32.640 --> 00:29:38.480
DNA works? I think broadly yes. Um. One of the challenges we

357
00:29:38.559 --> 00:29:45.720
have in two thousand and ten with
DNAs has become so precise that I guess

358
00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:48.680
the best way to explain it is, I can think about fifteen years ago

359
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:55.319
when I started in violent crime investigation. For us to get a DNA match,

360
00:29:55.759 --> 00:30:00.799
the sample we had to find was, you know, probably filled half

361
00:30:00.799 --> 00:30:03.559
of one of these cups, you
know, because they destroy so much of

362
00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:08.119
the sample in the in the testing. Essentially, DNA has become more and

363
00:30:08.160 --> 00:30:11.960
more precise, to the point where
when you and I walked in this room

364
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:17.720
earlier today, we could have sat
down, talked for thirty seconds, walked

365
00:30:17.759 --> 00:30:22.240
out. CSI officer could have come
in three or four days from now done

366
00:30:22.279 --> 00:30:26.559
some swabs here, and he would
have found your DNA and my DNA and

367
00:30:26.599 --> 00:30:30.000
probably a lot of other people's DNA. Sure, a little bit girls to

368
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:33.160
think about, but essentially, uh, you know, as we talk,

369
00:30:33.240 --> 00:30:37.559
when you know a little bit aspirate
comes out of our moment, that that

370
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.759
contains our DNA, or bloods our
skin cells contain our DNA. And that's

371
00:30:41.759 --> 00:30:45.480
what I'm getting on. If you
were ever in Laurie's residence, quite possibly

372
00:30:45.839 --> 00:30:48.720
quite innotiently, your DNA could be
in that residence. Has there ever been

373
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:53.519
a time you've been in there?
Okay? Um, what about the other

374
00:30:53.599 --> 00:30:57.680
lady down the road on I hadn't
even heard that name, so no,

375
00:30:57.880 --> 00:31:02.920
I don't, I don't actually know
that was Okay. Have you ever visited

376
00:31:03.880 --> 00:31:07.160
Ree France Como with her residence?
Okay, all right. Um, so

377
00:31:07.200 --> 00:31:10.799
you're quite positive there will be no
reason why your DNA would be any of

378
00:31:10.839 --> 00:31:15.079
those three locations. Okay, Um, did you know Jessica Lloyd even in

379
00:31:15.119 --> 00:31:19.119
passing for any reason? No,
I didn't hurt hear her name. So

380
00:31:19.319 --> 00:31:26.519
it was on the news. And
the reason I'm asking that is because I

381
00:31:26.559 --> 00:31:30.839
know you were asked that question on
Thursday night. And sometimes what we find

382
00:31:30.039 --> 00:31:33.920
and again, this is one of
those situations that can sometimes cause us to

383
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:37.119
get in a lengthy investigation in somebody
that maybe doesn't deserve it. But what

384
00:31:37.559 --> 00:31:41.599
can happen sometimes is they, you
know, somebody get stopped by the police

385
00:31:41.599 --> 00:31:47.400
like you did, and they get
asked that question and people want to stop

386
00:31:47.400 --> 00:31:49.599
by the police. That can be
nervous. Okay um, So they blurted

387
00:31:49.599 --> 00:31:52.759
out an answer and then they start
driving away and they why do I do

388
00:31:52.799 --> 00:31:56.960
that? Because the problem is is
it once they get asked again, then

389
00:31:56.960 --> 00:32:02.759
they feel compelled to me tain that
answer for fear that if they change their

390
00:32:02.759 --> 00:32:06.200
answers, somebody could find it.
You understand what I'm saying. I do.

391
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:07.480
Okay, So I want to make
sure that's not happening here. I

392
00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.000
don't care what you said to the
officers on Thursday night and last week.

393
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.880
If there's any communication or contact between
you and Jessica Lloyd, have you've seen

394
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:27.920
her picture right right now? Ever
seen her before? I Smith does his

395
00:32:28.000 --> 00:32:31.480
best to try and establish a timeline
that will clear Russell's name. He attempts

396
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:37.200
to determine his whereabouts by inquiring about
Russell's swipe card on the base, among

397
00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:40.519
other things. I think you were
talking about the whole idea of the MP's

398
00:32:42.200 --> 00:32:45.240
helping us with our investigations. Sobody
is you have the same system as we

399
00:32:45.279 --> 00:32:50.880
do with our headquarters with the swipe
cards. One of the things one of

400
00:32:50.880 --> 00:32:53.440
our investigators is they made a call
while I was talking to you there because

401
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:59.160
we were trying to work through that
week of the twenty three November twenty three

402
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:04.559
b in the Monday twenty fourth being
the Tuesday. UM. What they've what

403
00:33:04.599 --> 00:33:07.960
they've told us is that I want
to make sure you get this right,

404
00:33:07.599 --> 00:33:13.720
is that on the twenty third,
your sweite card was being used at the

405
00:33:13.720 --> 00:33:16.799
base. Okay, Okay. On
Tuesday twenty fourth there was no use of

406
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:22.519
your swept card okay. And then
on the following days the Wednesday, Thursday,

407
00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.400
Friday, UM, there was what
appeared to be average activity of your

408
00:33:25.400 --> 00:33:29.240
swept Kerma base. Does that make
sense to you? It does? That

409
00:33:29.720 --> 00:33:32.279
says that I was in Autawa on
the Tuesday. Okay. Do you remember

410
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:37.359
where in Ottawa you work? Yeah? I was in Gatino, as I

411
00:33:37.440 --> 00:33:44.039
said, meeting about the C seventeen. Okay. Um, Now again I

412
00:33:44.039 --> 00:33:46.079
want to be fair here, But
going back two months, are you sure

413
00:33:46.200 --> 00:33:52.000
that would have been the day you
were in Ottawa? Well, only because

414
00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:57.759
I wasn't with the base, Okay. So I can't remember honestly that that's

415
00:33:57.799 --> 00:34:00.759
the day I had the meeting in
Ottawa. But if I wasn't at the

416
00:34:00.759 --> 00:34:02.960
base, it was because I was
here. Okay. Now, if that

417
00:34:04.119 --> 00:34:07.440
is the day I had a meeting
in Ottawa, m do you remember being

418
00:34:07.480 --> 00:34:10.760
at the base on the Monday the
twenty third and swiping your card in an

419
00:34:10.760 --> 00:34:15.000
out Do you remember what you would
have done that evening to get too Outawa

420
00:34:15.000 --> 00:34:20.480
for that meeting? Like, would
it be I drove to Ottawa in the

421
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:22.119
morning of the day of my meeting, So if it was the Tuesday,

422
00:34:22.159 --> 00:34:27.519
then I would have left tweet.
It was a very foggy morning, Okay,

423
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:31.199
that morning I drove in that morning
Okay. So I would not have

424
00:34:31.199 --> 00:34:38.039
been at the base the day I
was in because the meeting started. Okay,

425
00:34:38.079 --> 00:34:42.639
so you leave the base, you
would have went home to your residence

426
00:34:42.639 --> 00:34:45.559
and tweet, and then you left
tweet in the morning and drove up to

427
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:50.920
your meeting in Ottawa. Okay,
Um, you leave the meeting in Ottawa.

428
00:34:51.159 --> 00:34:54.000
Is a daytime meeting and eating meeting
or do you remember it was a

429
00:34:54.719 --> 00:35:00.840
daytime meeting finished afternoon or Okay?
We had lunch and then finished. I

430
00:35:00.880 --> 00:35:05.000
think my wife and I had dinner
because she was here for working. Then

431
00:35:05.000 --> 00:35:07.920
I handed back. Okay. Um, well that's these are the kind of

432
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:12.199
things I'm trying to draw out here
that's helpful to us. Um. Do

433
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.880
you remember where you had dinner?
Uh? Well, I don't remember exactly

434
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:19.480
the restaurant, but it was in
Westboro because that's where our house was being

435
00:35:19.480 --> 00:35:22.599
built at the time. So we
had dinner, you know, in a

436
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:29.159
restaurant that we would expect to be
able to frequent. Okay, remember how

437
00:35:29.239 --> 00:35:34.519
you paid one of us was paid
by master cry. Okay, are you

438
00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.559
sure about that? Or I'm pretty
sure that's normally how we paid for me.

439
00:35:38.920 --> 00:35:40.800
All right. I can't remember if
it was me or my wife.

440
00:35:40.800 --> 00:35:44.480
They paid that one of us.
Okay, And do you remember which restaurant

441
00:35:44.480 --> 00:35:47.480
it was? Again? All right? And you see what I'm getting at,

442
00:35:47.559 --> 00:35:51.400
right? I mean that can be
very helpful for us, because if

443
00:35:51.400 --> 00:35:54.559
we can track that issue, right, we can we can put somebody paying

444
00:35:54.599 --> 00:35:59.599
for a meal at a location I
was meeting with, you know, fifteen

445
00:35:59.639 --> 00:36:01.559
people, so that day, so
okay, what time did the meeting end?

446
00:36:05.920 --> 00:36:09.320
I would say between three and four? Okay? And are you sure

447
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:16.719
that that's the same day you went
up with your wife? Well? I

448
00:36:16.760 --> 00:36:23.239
think so because she was here and
I think that was the day we went

449
00:36:23.280 --> 00:36:29.800
to this restaurant and Westbury Okay.
Um, you finished dinner? And do

450
00:36:29.840 --> 00:36:34.920
you remember what you did that evening? I? Okay? And you would

451
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:37.880
have Now again, I know we're
talking two months ago here, but do

452
00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:43.119
you remember specifically having dinner and then
driving back to Tweet or do you remember?

453
00:36:44.039 --> 00:36:49.719
Are you just guessing here? No, I'm not really guessing. I

454
00:36:49.760 --> 00:36:53.199
mean I believe that this night at
this restaurant was following the meetings in Ottawa.

455
00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.000
What Russell doesn't realize, and it
is one of the reasons as to

456
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:02.880
why he is being questions is because
his pathfinder was seen driving off road near

457
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:07.320
Jessica's house. When asked if this
was him, he said no. Despite

458
00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:12.000
this, the detective doesn't lie to
him and tells Russell that a lot of

459
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.320
the evidence is pointing back to him. I told you when I came in

460
00:37:15.360 --> 00:37:19.400
here that I'm now treat you with
respect, and I've asked you to do

461
00:37:19.480 --> 00:37:25.199
the same for me. We talked
about the whole idea of how we've approached

462
00:37:25.199 --> 00:37:30.599
you here, okay, trying to
be as just weird as possible. Okay.

463
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:34.440
But the problem is, Russell,
is every time I walk out of

464
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:37.400
this room, there's another issue that
comes up. Okay. And it's not

465
00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:40.679
issues that point away from you.
It's issues to point at you, Okay,

466
00:37:40.960 --> 00:37:43.760
And I want to I want you
to see what I mean. All

467
00:37:43.840 --> 00:37:57.039
Right. This is the footwear impression
of a person who approached the rear of

468
00:37:57.159 --> 00:38:01.119
Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of
the twenty eight and twenty ninth of January.

469
00:38:01.119 --> 00:38:06.000
Okay, all right, Now,
I want you to keep in mind

470
00:38:06.000 --> 00:38:08.840
that this is slightly smaller, okay
in scale. Okay, okay, all

471
00:38:08.920 --> 00:38:13.360
right, that's not to scale.
That's the footwear is absolutely bigger. If

472
00:38:13.360 --> 00:38:16.800
you look here on the ruler,
you'll see that one inch is just slightly

473
00:38:16.840 --> 00:38:20.559
smaller than an actual inch. Okay, but this is the way of prints

474
00:38:20.559 --> 00:38:24.360
off on the computer. Move this
over so you can see what I mean.

475
00:38:24.440 --> 00:38:29.840
All right. Essentially, when you're
dealing with footwear impressions, we have

476
00:38:29.880 --> 00:38:34.199
a gentleman on the opp who's basically
world renowned. His name is John Norman.

477
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:39.039
And essentially with footwear impressions, you're
in a situation where you're you're pretty

478
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:45.599
much in the area of a fingerprints. Okay, And essentially what we're talking

479
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:50.559
about here is especially when you start
adding in other pieces of information that support

480
00:38:51.480 --> 00:39:00.440
an investigative position. Okay, this
is a photo copy of the boot that

481
00:39:01.159 --> 00:39:07.079
you took off your foot just a
little while ago. Okay, Now I'm

482
00:39:07.119 --> 00:39:10.760
not an expert in footwear impressions,
so I rely on the experts. Footwear

483
00:39:10.760 --> 00:39:16.079
impressions are very much like like fingerprint
comparisons. Okay, you take a look

484
00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:20.840
at this print, and again,
this is one print this person walked through.

485
00:39:21.079 --> 00:39:23.360
There's several different prints to compare,
So we're gonna get features off a

486
00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:29.400
one print to compare features off another
print, to compare these are identical.

487
00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:42.880
Your vehicle drove up the side of
Jessica Lloyd's house, Your boots walked to

488
00:39:42.960 --> 00:39:46.000
the back of Jessica Lloyd's house on
the evening of the twenty eighth and twenty

489
00:39:46.079 --> 00:39:52.760
ninth of January. You want discretion. We need to have some honesty,

490
00:39:53.320 --> 00:39:58.159
okay, because this is this is
getting out of control really fast, rustle,

491
00:40:00.280 --> 00:40:21.679
really really fast. This is getting
beyond my control, all right.

492
00:40:21.719 --> 00:40:27.000
I came in here a few hours
ago and I called you the way I

493
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:29.920
called you to day because I wanted
to give you the benefit doubt. But

494
00:40:30.039 --> 00:40:35.400
you and I both know you're at
Jessica Lloyd's house, and I need to

495
00:40:35.440 --> 00:40:40.480
know why. When presented with a
plethora of evidence against him, Russell has

496
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:45.920
stumped into silence. You can see
him trying to remain stoic, but he's

497
00:40:45.000 --> 00:40:49.880
working out what to do in his
head. At this point in the interrogation,

498
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:53.280
Detective Smith lets Russell know that a
search warrant has been issued to look

499
00:40:53.280 --> 00:40:58.239
into his home, but more importantly, his wife is now aware of what's

500
00:40:58.280 --> 00:41:04.119
going on with him. Detective Jim
Smith is outstanding during this questioning. He

501
00:41:04.159 --> 00:41:08.400
knows exactly how to work Russell without
spooking him into silence or luryering up.

502
00:41:08.639 --> 00:41:14.599
He gently needs on the fact that
Russell clearly loves control, and he works

503
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:20.599
that treat against him. He presents
Russell with the option to confess to his

504
00:41:20.679 --> 00:41:24.679
crimes. Russell, sitting there,
still silently, staring at the floor with

505
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:30.239
his arms crossed, has very few
options at this point. You know there's

506
00:41:30.239 --> 00:41:35.639
only one option. Do you do
you what other option is there? What's

507
00:41:35.639 --> 00:41:39.519
the option? Well, I don't
think you want the cold blooded psychopath option.

508
00:41:45.079 --> 00:41:50.519
I might be wrong, because I
don't get me wrong. I've met

509
00:41:50.519 --> 00:41:55.760
guys who actually kind of enjoyed the
notoriety, got off on it, got

510
00:41:55.760 --> 00:42:01.400
off on having that label. Bernardo
BM, I don't see that new.

511
00:42:02.159 --> 00:42:05.039
If I saw that new, I
wouldn't be back. And you're talking to

512
00:42:05.119 --> 00:42:15.360
you quite frankly. But maybe I'm
wrong. Maybe you got me fooled.

513
00:42:15.400 --> 00:42:29.599
I don't know. This is over, and it can have a a bad

514
00:42:29.719 --> 00:42:43.760
ending where Jessica's parents continue to wonder
where her daughter's lying. I don't know.

515
00:42:43.960 --> 00:42:47.280
I mean, obviously there's a huge
search still underway, and it'll continue,

516
00:42:50.159 --> 00:42:57.800
it'll continue until her body's found.
That might even happen tonight for all

517
00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:02.440
I know. Again, the detective
pushes him and asks him what is he

518
00:43:02.480 --> 00:43:07.880
going to do. Russell remains silent
for a time and repeatedly sighs before his

519
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:15.800
saying, you can just call me
Russ Russy. Maybe this is what help.

520
00:43:15.960 --> 00:43:21.679
Can you tell me what the issue
is you're struggling with. Russell goes

521
00:43:21.679 --> 00:43:25.039
on to explain that his main concern
is what this whole situation is going to

522
00:43:25.119 --> 00:43:29.480
do to his wife and what they're
going to do to the house. He

523
00:43:29.559 --> 00:43:32.840
doesn't want detectives to destroy the house
looking for evidence, because the one in

524
00:43:32.920 --> 00:43:37.880
Ottawa is his wife's dream home.
He wants to keep it that way.

525
00:43:37.920 --> 00:43:43.039
The detectives begin to talk to him
about what evidence they're going to find and

526
00:43:43.079 --> 00:43:45.920
how easily they will be able to
recover things that may have been deleted from

527
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:52.039
things like computers or hard drives,
as d cards on cameras. At this

528
00:43:52.119 --> 00:43:58.079
notion, Russell begins to feverishly rub
his forehead in distress. He states again

529
00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:01.199
how he wants to minimize the impact
fact this whole thing has on his wife,

530
00:44:01.639 --> 00:44:06.639
to which the detective asks him to
tell him where Jessica's body is.

531
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:14.320
So, what am I doing?
Rust? I put my best foot forward

532
00:44:14.360 --> 00:44:23.639
here for you, But I really
haven't. I don't know what else to

533
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:46.760
do to make you understand the impact
of what's happening here. Did we talk

534
00:44:51.960 --> 00:45:02.480
M minimize the impact on my wife? So do I? So we do

535
00:45:02.559 --> 00:45:39.400
that. Let start by telling the
truth. Okay, Sorr? Is she?

536
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:06.960
Oh? I don't know? Um? Is she close to where she

537
00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:15.079
lives? I've got maps of that
general area? Which town is she here?

538
00:46:15.199 --> 00:46:23.679
Why don't we start there? I'm
not sure if you give me a

539
00:46:23.719 --> 00:46:35.280
map, but it covers you already
the highway and order to tweet, and

540
00:46:35.360 --> 00:46:37.800
so I'll show it. Let me
see what I got here. I might

541
00:46:37.840 --> 00:47:10.199
have something. Is she inside outside? Mm hmmm, it's probably the biggest

542
00:47:10.199 --> 00:47:15.480
area I have there for us anymore? We need a real man. So

543
00:47:15.639 --> 00:47:22.440
where am I going on on here
to get to her? Its black here?

544
00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:29.920
Okay? So you're pointing to where
she is? Okay? She close

545
00:47:29.960 --> 00:47:36.480
to a road? All right?
Um? Is it something? Where is

546
00:47:36.480 --> 00:47:38.519
she? Is she buried? Or
she somewhere where if you walk there you

547
00:47:38.519 --> 00:47:44.440
would you would rearely easily see her
gets here? Okay? So she's self

548
00:47:44.440 --> 00:47:51.440
the seven h east of Tweed,
west of forty one, And what's this

549
00:47:51.519 --> 00:47:58.239
road here. I'm not sure either
mine. Okay, I'll be right back.

550
00:47:58.280 --> 00:48:01.400
Okay, do you any water or
anything? Sure? Okay, I'm

551
00:48:01.440 --> 00:48:14.679
pretty bad. How long has she
been there? For? Over a week?

552
00:48:15.159 --> 00:48:22.639
Was it fairly quick? From the
time she left Friday night? Russell

553
00:48:22.760 --> 00:48:28.239
shows the detective on multiple maps where
her body is located, and then begins

554
00:48:28.239 --> 00:48:31.639
to describe what happened to Jessica on
the night of her kidnapping and murder.

555
00:48:32.239 --> 00:48:40.000
What do you want to talk about? What are you open right? What

556
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.119
do you want to know? Well? Do you want to work forwards or

557
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:53.400
backwards? Because why do we start
with Jessica? How does that start for

558
00:48:53.440 --> 00:49:06.960
you? Um? I saw her
in her house on her tread not Wednesday

559
00:49:07.039 --> 00:49:17.920
nnies, and I noticed she wasn't
there Thursday. So I got into the

560
00:49:17.960 --> 00:49:35.280
house look around then and they left. I notice she'd come home, So

561
00:49:35.440 --> 00:50:00.119
I went back in through the back
patio door while she was sleeping. M

562
00:50:00.280 --> 00:50:16.000
hm. So I woke her up. I didn't I can hear her?

563
00:50:16.480 --> 00:50:45.639
She don't want to hear once Friday
night? Okay, Well, so I

564
00:50:45.880 --> 00:50:53.880
raped her in her house and then
I took her to the car and took

565
00:50:53.880 --> 00:51:22.639
her to tweet m and spend the
day in tweet and then I hit her

566
00:51:23.079 --> 00:51:31.360
as we were walking. She thought
we were leaving, hit her in the

567
00:51:31.400 --> 00:51:50.440
back of the head. Okay.
He then begins to describe the murder of

568
00:51:50.519 --> 00:51:58.239
Marie France. There was an open
window in the basement of her house and

569
00:51:58.440 --> 00:52:05.039
she was awaiting. I went in
there a couple of nights before she came

570
00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:15.159
home around I went back in there
late at night when she was at home.

571
00:52:15.599 --> 00:52:25.559
She was on the phone in her
bedroom. She actually discovered me in

572
00:52:25.599 --> 00:52:31.639
the basement. She was trying to
get her cat to come upstairs, and

573
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:36.679
the cat was in the basement that
see me and was succeeded on me in

574
00:52:36.719 --> 00:52:43.440
the corner. She couldn't get the
cat up, so she came downstairs trying

575
00:52:43.480 --> 00:52:49.159
to get the cat. And I'm
not more sure why she came over to

576
00:52:49.199 --> 00:52:51.360
me. I guess the cat was
staring at me, and she was wondering

577
00:52:51.360 --> 00:53:06.800
where the cat was staring at once
run MH. So when she spotted me,

578
00:53:06.880 --> 00:53:17.440
I am, I had the same
flashlight. I subdued her, tied

579
00:53:17.440 --> 00:53:40.719
her up upstairs, and strangled her
later in the morning or suffocated her.

580
00:53:42.840 --> 00:54:01.519
H's some tape after them. M
How do you subdue her. And when

581
00:54:01.559 --> 00:54:06.519
you say subdued her in the basement, would you do, well, I

582
00:54:06.559 --> 00:54:16.920
have the same flashlight, and you
know she she saw me right away.

583
00:54:17.000 --> 00:54:22.719
So it's just I hit her a
couple of times round her head, try

584
00:54:22.719 --> 00:54:29.159
and knock her out. Didn't,
but she was bleeding a little bit.

585
00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:50.440
Eventually Drew struggled subdued any blood from
from that struggle? No, not not

586
00:54:50.519 --> 00:54:55.400
a whole bunch, but a flashlight
did break her skin a couple of times.

587
00:54:57.639 --> 00:55:02.880
Okay, what area of the basement
did that take place in? I

588
00:55:02.920 --> 00:55:08.119
was hiding behind the furnace, so
she spotted me right there. Okay,

589
00:55:08.920 --> 00:55:25.840
she recognized Now I had stuff on
my face. Um, so you go

590
00:55:25.920 --> 00:55:31.960
upstairs and you said she suffocated,
Well, I suffocate her. Put tape

591
00:55:32.000 --> 00:55:37.440
on her. I put tape on
her mouth, and then I put tape

592
00:55:37.440 --> 00:55:52.039
on her nose. How that there
so she couldn't breathe? Um? What

593
00:55:52.079 --> 00:56:05.199
kind of tape was it? What
happened to it? M uh with me?

594
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:15.519
And I can't I can't remember what
actually I did with that tape,

595
00:56:15.519 --> 00:56:28.400
but probably through the did you just
tape for any other purposes? Yeah?

596
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:35.400
Okay? Um, did she ever
recognize you through this? Whole episode.

597
00:56:36.960 --> 00:56:43.039
What did you say, your hat
on your face? I just to cover

598
00:56:43.119 --> 00:56:49.199
it from my head, just to
you know, sports pull over tape,

599
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:58.599
just a little cap kind of okay, you know, whacker or something,

600
00:57:00.039 --> 00:57:15.599
and they just had band over career
most everything. Put my eyes. Um,

601
00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:21.559
and this flashlight? Where is that
now? In thuse? What kind

602
00:57:21.559 --> 00:57:30.239
of flashla is? It's a red
three w D sure my branded his bets

603
00:57:30.280 --> 00:57:40.159
and that old you know these women, it's like a big mh. Brandon,

604
00:57:42.559 --> 00:57:51.199
very crafty woman flush lights already still
as a big um. Did you

605
00:57:51.280 --> 00:57:58.039
take anything out of Marie France's house
or Jessica Lloyd's house? Uh? Yeah,

606
00:57:58.239 --> 00:58:05.559
some other underwear? Okay. After
hearing the details of how Russell committed

607
00:58:05.599 --> 00:58:09.159
the crimes, the detective asked the
question that was most likely on everyone's mind.

608
00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:15.000
Why did he kill them? Let
me let me ask you this.

609
00:58:15.159 --> 00:58:22.880
Did you like or dislike these women? I didn't know anything? Okay?

610
00:58:25.280 --> 00:58:30.480
How you found that one time?
In that in her airplane? Okay,

611
00:58:32.000 --> 00:58:35.320
I guess, I guess from Yeah, when you're going through these things,

612
00:58:36.159 --> 00:58:40.599
um, are you? Well?
Let me let's talk about Jessica, because

613
00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:45.679
she was there with you for the
whole day, right, what kind of

614
00:58:45.719 --> 00:59:00.400
feelings were you were experiencing while you
were with her that day? M hm?

615
00:59:04.440 --> 00:59:16.880
Oh she was a fresh friend.
I can't tell me why you killed

616
00:59:16.920 --> 00:59:22.400
her, right, do you know
why you killed her? Well? I

617
00:59:22.440 --> 00:59:42.679
think I killed her because I knew
that her story would be recognized, Her

618
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:46.039
story would be recognized. How do
you mean, wow, because she knew

619
00:59:46.039 --> 01:00:02.800
I was taking pictures? Mhmm.
So because of the two yeah stories and

620
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:17.880
tweet that would have been a fairly
yeah. I'm quite obvious. So if

621
01:00:17.880 --> 01:00:24.760
you didn't take pictures, what would
you have done with her? I don't

622
01:00:24.800 --> 01:00:32.320
know. I mean she's at your
house, right, Um, well,

623
01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:38.639
let let me ask you this is
it? Two lived, right and two

624
01:00:38.719 --> 01:00:47.239
died? What's what was the difference
in your mind between wow? The the

625
01:00:47.360 --> 01:01:00.480
attention the first two? God,
m was very much focused on obviously for

626
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:12.119
for all these reasons pictures I took, so anybody else telling stories about pictures?

627
01:01:12.920 --> 01:01:23.039
Right? What I mean from the
street line. But when when this

628
01:01:23.199 --> 01:01:30.360
thing happened with Marie Franz, it
was was did you believe that you were

629
01:01:30.440 --> 01:01:37.880
already a suspect for what happened in
tweet? So what what were you concerned

630
01:01:37.880 --> 01:01:55.440
about? Well? Because I was
pretty sure that you know, she was

631
01:01:55.519 --> 01:02:02.039
serving military, right, I would
have been, but it would have been

632
01:02:02.079 --> 01:02:15.920
difficult for investigators to ignore that connection. Okay, it makes sense. Um,

633
01:02:19.800 --> 01:02:24.159
let's go back to Jessica then,
okay, Um, you see her

634
01:02:24.199 --> 01:02:30.320
on the Wednesday night? Okay,
on I treadmill. How do you see

635
01:02:30.360 --> 01:02:36.960
hear? Here was in the basement? I do wide open? So drop

636
01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:45.400
by? Okay? Did you stop
to look at the house or how does

637
01:02:45.440 --> 01:02:50.320
that catch your eyes? You drive
by? I was looking to see who

638
01:02:51.199 --> 01:02:55.920
who's where? I don't know that
Verria very well, so I was just

639
01:02:57.079 --> 01:03:05.320
keeping my eyes open. Okay.
During this part of the interview, Russell

640
01:03:05.400 --> 01:03:08.559
goes into detail about the rape of
Jessica Lloyd, but some things are better

641
01:03:08.679 --> 01:03:14.920
left unheard. During the last stretch
of the interview, Russell speaks more on

642
01:03:15.000 --> 01:03:23.639
the murder of Marie Franz. So, Marie Frantz, when did when did

643
01:03:23.679 --> 01:03:37.159
her first to Curredia to go to
her house? Uh? Probably on October?

644
01:03:39.400 --> 01:03:50.079
Remember, not quite true some of
that time. And do you really

645
01:03:50.239 --> 01:04:00.320
remember why that you thought too?
Um? Did do that? M h

646
01:04:01.639 --> 01:04:10.280
uh? Well, you know she
had said she lived on the one time

647
01:04:10.320 --> 01:04:30.760
I met her. Mm hmm.
Yeah, um, just trying why her

648
01:04:30.960 --> 01:04:34.159
versus you know, the dozens of
other women you probably come across on a

649
01:04:34.239 --> 01:04:53.840
daily basis. I don't know.
Yeah, yeah, I went up there

650
01:04:54.280 --> 01:05:00.199
when she wasn't home, just to
see where she lived. M When did

651
01:05:00.280 --> 01:05:06.920
you do that a couple of months
before? How did you know your address?

652
01:05:11.519 --> 01:05:16.440
Right? Is there on the role
for the basement? Okay, So

653
01:05:16.559 --> 01:05:19.159
when you go out there a couple
of nights before, you remember what night

654
01:05:19.239 --> 01:05:29.760
that was you were there first time? I don't, but it was within

655
01:05:29.840 --> 01:05:34.280
two or three nights I think.
Okay, well in more than four and

656
01:05:34.679 --> 01:05:39.559
something like that. And did you
actually go into her house on that occasion

657
01:05:39.679 --> 01:05:42.920
or did you? Okay, so
what happened that night? How did you

658
01:05:43.039 --> 01:05:46.840
How did you get into her house
on the side of the basement side when

659
01:05:47.599 --> 01:05:53.760
okay, just a backstep a bit. How did you get to her house

660
01:05:54.039 --> 01:05:59.199
that that first night you went there? I drove what did you drive?

661
01:06:00.400 --> 01:06:08.800
H h good, drove my truck
kind of find her. Do you remember

662
01:06:08.800 --> 01:06:18.320
where you parked it? Yeah?
I parked it a division in the residential

663
01:06:18.360 --> 01:06:26.159
areas. Harry parked it on another
side six seven hundreds away okay, so

664
01:06:26.360 --> 01:06:29.039
not on her street, on different
street. You remember what street you parked

665
01:06:29.079 --> 01:06:31.840
on, but it's actually might be
the same street, but there's an interruption

666
01:06:31.880 --> 01:06:39.039
in the street where there's a construction
zone. There's a pathway in between,

667
01:06:39.119 --> 01:06:44.599
so I think it's probably the same
street. Okay. So you go to

668
01:06:44.679 --> 01:06:47.559
her house and when you went there
that night, did you know that she

669
01:06:47.719 --> 01:06:56.880
was away? I'm not sure if
I knew entirely, but I think I

670
01:06:56.960 --> 01:07:02.599
thought she'd go away. Okay.
Is that based on her schedule or I

671
01:07:02.719 --> 01:07:08.480
would I would you? Well,
my, yeah, because I fly with

672
01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:12.679
the scholater and I have access to
the schedule, and what could I say?

673
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:17.039
It slightly different schedules. But that's
probably you don't know for sure.

674
01:07:20.840 --> 01:07:25.800
I think that's probably how I am. Okay, So you go to our

675
01:07:25.840 --> 01:07:31.960
house and what do you do that
night? The first night? I looked

676
01:07:32.000 --> 01:07:46.280
around and I'm sure that she was
living there around and I'm sorry, did

677
01:07:46.360 --> 01:07:48.559
you say I can't remember if you
said, how did you get in?

678
01:07:49.320 --> 01:07:56.840
Same same way? Side basement side
basement window? Do you remember what kind

679
01:07:56.840 --> 01:07:59.320
of window it is? Like?
What made it? Uh? Well,

680
01:07:59.360 --> 01:08:03.280
I just flash I see that it
was not a lot to have been opened

681
01:08:03.320 --> 01:08:10.639
slightly, So I don't remember the
screens that are open whenning. Okay,

682
01:08:12.320 --> 01:08:15.800
So you go in and you're in
her house figuring out she lives along?

683
01:08:15.880 --> 01:08:24.520
And do you do anything that night? Yeah? I was playing with her

684
01:08:28.000 --> 01:08:44.119
kind of war you mean playing with
her her wearing? Okay, doing anything

685
01:08:44.159 --> 01:08:59.039
else? I didn't touch her stuff. What do you mean you didn't touch

686
01:08:59.039 --> 01:09:02.199
her stuff? I mean you touch
her underwhere? But yeah, anything else?

687
01:09:03.720 --> 01:09:08.920
Did you take any of the underwear
with you that night? Yeah?

688
01:09:09.000 --> 01:09:13.079
A few pieces. Where did you
find the underwhere when you win it?

689
01:09:15.079 --> 01:09:27.960
True? Because it clean? Was
it used for clean? Um? Anything

690
01:09:28.000 --> 01:09:32.199
else? You can remember doing that
evening? You? M all right?

691
01:09:35.560 --> 01:09:43.000
So? Um? After that first
visit, did you return again before meeting

692
01:09:43.079 --> 01:09:50.560
up with her? So which day
did you go to her house when she

693
01:09:50.760 --> 01:09:59.079
was there? Well, the night
before I went out a while, so

694
01:09:59.159 --> 01:10:06.760
I think that was my Yeah,
all right, So let's walk through that.

695
01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:13.479
What time do you think you got
there? About eleven or so?

696
01:10:13.760 --> 01:10:23.920
Probably ten three eleven? Okay?
So she was on the phone in her

697
01:10:24.000 --> 01:10:32.399
room. I could hear that from
the backyard. I got in through the

698
01:10:33.159 --> 01:10:41.439
side window, the same basement window. How could you hear from the backyard?

699
01:10:41.520 --> 01:10:48.640
What was just hear her on the
phone from beside the house, hear

700
01:10:48.760 --> 01:10:53.560
through the walls that she was on
the phone. Okay, any idea who

701
01:10:53.640 --> 01:10:57.039
she was talking to or what she
was talking about here? That one?

702
01:10:58.479 --> 01:11:01.399
Okay? So you go in through
the basic window and what are you wear

703
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:15.760
it? And this is happening?
Mm hmm. Let's sweatshirt, doctors,

704
01:11:15.800 --> 01:11:25.079
I guess. And the two pieces
on my head? Where are those two

705
01:11:25.119 --> 01:11:32.560
pieces now, pieces that you were
on the head, they're probably in my

706
01:11:32.680 --> 01:11:41.159
bag and my luggage banging edison in
the bedroom. What does your luggage bank

707
01:11:41.199 --> 01:11:50.439
look like? That's blue Deffel bag
type of thing beside the bad They're the

708
01:11:50.479 --> 01:11:56.279
only blue Duffel bag in your bedroom? Um? And these pieces, what

709
01:11:56.359 --> 01:12:00.600
do they look like? Again?
It's a blue head band now, okay,

710
01:12:01.199 --> 01:12:14.479
standard blue winter hid been and black
skull cap than any insignias or anything

711
01:12:14.520 --> 01:12:16.399
on them? Yeah, there,
but I don't know what they're. The

712
01:12:16.439 --> 01:12:24.520
blue hipben has something stands up stitched
in the name of some sort of stitched

713
01:12:24.560 --> 01:12:30.000
on it, and the skull cap
has some sort of emblem on the white

714
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:36.560
amblom on the blackness. Are they
like sports emblems or company emblems or it's

715
01:12:36.600 --> 01:12:48.600
the manufacturers? Okay? Anything else? In that blue Duffel bay. Is

716
01:12:48.640 --> 01:12:58.640
it full of of things? Others? Okay? Um? Do you go

717
01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:05.239
in? Uh? Remember what you
had on your feet in the house there

718
01:13:05.800 --> 01:13:13.800
any way to Marie France's house side, probably runing shoes. It wasn't snow

719
01:13:13.800 --> 01:13:21.479
on the ground. So you go
in and you're in the basement and whereabouts

720
01:13:21.520 --> 01:13:30.479
in the basement right by the furnace. Okay, and what are you doing?

721
01:13:30.640 --> 01:13:34.880
What's what's your what's your sort of
plan? At that point I was

722
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:40.720
waiting for a little bit, okay, And how long did that take?

723
01:13:41.760 --> 01:13:45.039
Well? She didn't, so then
she came out of looking for the cat?

724
01:13:46.520 --> 01:13:57.359
All right? And what happens next? Unless it described subdued her ge

725
01:13:57.439 --> 01:14:09.680
a flashlight? H good? Essentially
rustle her to the ground and tire up?

726
01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:18.479
What did you use? The tire
up? Same rope, green rope?

727
01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:26.279
It's a tweet? Is it just
a grain? Or like? How

728
01:14:26.319 --> 01:14:34.560
long does this piece of rope?
It's probably twenty feet. It's a boot

729
01:14:34.640 --> 01:14:41.680
boat rope. It's good. Some
red specks and out of them the for

730
01:14:41.840 --> 01:14:45.239
lots of ropes and tweet or is
this probably the only rope? H?

731
01:14:46.600 --> 01:14:55.720
No? This there are two months, two lengths of the same green rope

732
01:14:56.560 --> 01:15:00.880
and where they both used. Well, I I only ever had one with

733
01:15:01.000 --> 01:15:04.439
me, so I don't know if
I was the same piece both times or

734
01:15:04.640 --> 01:15:11.479
not, but only two d okay, So you tire tire up? How

735
01:15:11.520 --> 01:15:16.000
did you tie her up when you
obviously do that? Okay? And what

736
01:15:16.159 --> 01:15:19.840
is she wearing at that point?
She wasn't wearing anything to start with it?

737
01:15:21.520 --> 01:15:24.960
So when she came down to the
basement, she had no clothes on.

738
01:15:25.720 --> 01:15:30.000
She had some sort of a shawler
or her shoulder. Okay. She

739
01:15:30.239 --> 01:15:36.880
immediately dropped when she's hug Did she
say anything? When she saw she did?

740
01:15:38.279 --> 01:15:46.359
She called out, you bastard?
Okay? And then what happened?

741
01:15:49.359 --> 01:15:57.960
Then? I subdue by hitting her
with that red flashlight okay. Oh they

742
01:15:58.000 --> 01:16:05.520
were or glancing lands and blows cut
her skin, but weren't doing my chelsea.

743
01:16:06.159 --> 01:16:14.159
She fell over in the nice she
tripped. How did you tie her

744
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.039
at that point? Like? I
know you used the rope by boy?

745
01:16:16.359 --> 01:16:20.680
What did you tie her out?
Like? Just put her put her pull

746
01:16:20.760 --> 01:16:27.880
her hands behind her back and just
tie her miss together? Okay? And

747
01:16:28.279 --> 01:16:38.600
then what happened after that? Then
I took her upstairs? Did she go

748
01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:42.520
upstairs under her own power. Did
you carry her? No? She passed

749
01:16:42.560 --> 01:16:51.199
out to on the stairs, and
then I carried her up. Why do

750
01:16:51.239 --> 01:17:02.760
you think she passed out? I
expect from the h's true? So she

751
01:17:02.880 --> 01:17:30.000
carried up to where? And then
what happened from the bed true period of

752
01:17:30.079 --> 01:17:39.319
time. During the trial, more
details of Russell Williams's crimes were revealed due

753
01:17:39.359 --> 01:17:43.760
to the fact that Russell had videotaped
large chunks of his time with Jessica and

754
01:17:43.920 --> 01:17:47.239
Marie Franz. Some of the details
referred to the extent of the sexual assaults

755
01:17:47.319 --> 01:17:54.199
and the coldness Russell showed both of
the women he murdered. Marie Frantz brutally

756
01:17:54.239 --> 01:17:58.039
fought back against Russell. She called
him a bastard and was not going to

757
01:17:58.159 --> 01:18:02.039
go quietly into the night while he
did what he planned on doing. Unfortunately,

758
01:18:02.159 --> 01:18:05.720
Russell was just able to overpower her
after he got the jump on her.

759
01:18:06.720 --> 01:18:11.239
Marie Franz would state towards the end
of the attack, You're going to

760
01:18:11.359 --> 01:18:15.119
kill me, aren't you have a
heart? I don't want to die,

761
01:18:15.880 --> 01:18:21.319
I don't deserve to die. I
have been good. Clearly, Russell Williams

762
01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:27.279
had no heart. During Jessica Lloyd's
abduction, she would have a seizure,

763
01:18:27.840 --> 01:18:32.359
something that she was prone to during
high stress situations. During the seizure,

764
01:18:32.520 --> 01:18:36.560
she begged for him to take her
to the hospital because she thought she was

765
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:43.039
going to die, but Russell refused. Before Russell killed her, Jessica would

766
01:18:43.079 --> 01:18:46.239
say, if I die, will
you make sure my mom knows I love

767
01:18:46.319 --> 01:18:51.760
her. Russell then proceeded to kill
her. The fact that Russell documented so

768
01:18:51.960 --> 01:18:57.640
much of his crimes made it easy
for authorities to link him to multiple burglaries,

769
01:18:57.840 --> 01:19:02.079
as well as the murders of Marie
Franz and Jessica Lloyd. In October

770
01:19:02.199 --> 01:19:06.600
of two thousand and ten, Russell
Williams would plead guilty to all charges against

771
01:19:06.680 --> 01:19:12.840
him. He was charged with two
counts of first degree murder, two counts

772
01:19:12.880 --> 01:19:17.319
of sexual assault, two counts of
forcible confinement, and eighty two counts of

773
01:19:17.479 --> 01:19:24.479
break ins and attempted break ins.
On October twenty first, two thousand and

774
01:19:24.520 --> 01:19:29.239
ten, Colonel Russell Williams was sentenced
to two life terms with no chance of

775
01:19:29.319 --> 01:19:33.319
pearl for twenty five years for the
murders of Marie France Como and Jessica Lloyd.

776
01:19:33.720 --> 01:19:38.920
He was also sentenced to an additional
eighty two years, one year for

777
01:19:39.159 --> 01:19:44.520
each of his other charges. During
the final proceedings, Williams was given the

778
01:19:44.560 --> 01:19:49.199
opportunity to address the court and the
public. He said, Your Honor,

779
01:19:49.840 --> 01:19:56.479
I stand before you indescribably ashamed.
I know the crimes I have committed have

780
01:19:56.640 --> 01:20:01.359
traumatized many people. The family and
friends of Re France and Jessica in particular,

781
01:20:01.560 --> 01:20:06.720
have suffered and continue to suffer profound, desperate pain and sorrow as a

782
01:20:06.840 --> 01:20:11.760
result of what I've done. Numerous
victims of the brake and enters I have

783
01:20:11.880 --> 01:20:16.359
committed have been seriously distressed as a
result of my having so invaded their most

784
01:20:16.520 --> 01:20:23.800
intimate privacy. My family, your
honor has been irreparably damaged. The understandable

785
01:20:23.880 --> 01:20:28.279
hatred that was expressed yesterday and that
has been palpable throughout the week, has

786
01:20:28.319 --> 01:20:31.760
me recognized that most will find it
impossible to accept. But the fact is

787
01:20:31.960 --> 01:20:35.800
I deeply regret what I have done
and the harm I know I have caused

788
01:20:35.840 --> 01:20:41.000
to many. I committed despicable crimes, your Honor, and in the process

789
01:20:41.079 --> 01:20:46.159
portrayed my family, my friends and
colleagues, and the Canadian forces. After

790
01:20:46.279 --> 01:20:51.159
the trial, Russell Williams's wife,
Mary Elizabeth, filed for divorce. She

791
01:20:51.359 --> 01:20:56.279
has never made a public statement in
regards to the actions of her husband and

792
01:20:56.399 --> 01:21:01.159
has maintained that she knew nothing about
the crimes he was committing. Russell would

793
01:21:01.199 --> 01:21:08.239
also reach out of court financial settlements
with members of his victims families for undisclosed

794
01:21:08.239 --> 01:21:14.079
amounts. The Canadian forces would denounce
Russell Williams in every way that they could,

795
01:21:14.239 --> 01:21:18.119
and rightfully so. They would burn
his military uniform and strip him of

796
01:21:18.279 --> 01:21:24.319
his rank of colonel. However,
he is still legally entitled to receive his

797
01:21:24.479 --> 01:21:30.359
military pension. Russell Williams was a
different breed of deviant. It can be

798
01:21:30.439 --> 01:21:33.159
assumed that if he was not found
out for what he was, he would

799
01:21:33.319 --> 01:21:39.840
never have stopped. His thirst for
control, power and sexual perversion was not

800
01:21:40.079 --> 01:21:44.760
something he could ever quench. And
he is exactly where he belongs, away

801
01:21:44.880 --> 01:21:48.560
from the world and those he could
hurt. Russell Williams, a Jecklin hide,

802
01:21:48.640 --> 01:21:51.880
if there ever was one, is
living out the remainder of his days

803
01:21:53.039 --> 01:22:00.279
at a maximum security prison in Quebec. I dislike to say that it's good

804
01:22:00.319 --> 01:22:04.800
that justice has done for Jessica,
for Marie France, for the two victims

805
01:22:04.840 --> 01:22:10.960
and tweet and for all the victims
of his breaking editors and I'm glad it's

806
01:22:11.000 --> 01:22:15.600
over. We're just all thankful that
it is over and we can maybe now

807
01:22:15.840 --> 01:22:21.000
start to get on with our lives. Thank you for listening to this episode

808
01:22:21.039 --> 01:22:24.720
of The Apex and the Abyss.
If you would like to reach out to

809
01:22:24.800 --> 01:22:28.560
the show, please feel free to
write an email to Apex and Abyss at

810
01:22:28.640 --> 01:22:31.199
gmail dot com. You can also
find the show on Twitter, Instagram,

811
01:22:31.319 --> 01:22:35.840
and Facebook if you prefer to communicate
that way. You can also submit episode

812
01:22:35.880 --> 01:22:41.000
suggestions, as well as find links
to everything mentioned above in the show notes

813
01:22:41.159 --> 01:22:44.560
and at apex and abyss dot com, as well as a link to another

814
01:22:44.600 --> 01:22:47.680
show a co host called Monster Madness. If you'd like to support the show,

815
01:22:47.720 --> 01:22:50.279
you can do that in many ways. You can head on over to

816
01:22:50.359 --> 01:22:55.119
Apple Podcasts and submit a rating and
review. This costs you nothing but a

817
01:22:55.199 --> 01:22:58.800
few moments of your time and it
is greatly appreciated. You can buy show

818
01:22:58.880 --> 01:23:02.159
merch at Tea Public and lastly,
you can become a monthly donor at Patreon

819
01:23:02.279 --> 01:23:05.800
dot com or become a member of
the Apex and the Abyss community over at

820
01:23:05.960 --> 01:23:11.159
Himalaya Plus. Again, thank you, so much for listening to the show

821
01:23:11.319 --> 01:23:18.000
and for your support in telling these
stories. Until next time. We've said

822
01:23:18.039 --> 01:23:21.880
it earlier this week. All committees
are stunned by the tragic events that led

823
01:23:21.920 --> 01:23:27.119
to the condition of Russell Willis.
The members of the Game Forces felled into

824
01:23:27.159 --> 01:23:32.520
the court. It is support to
acknowledge that diligent police work ended his terrible

825
01:23:32.600 --> 01:23:38.119
pattern violence, and we the Game
Forces want the express our gratitude to the

826
01:23:38.199 --> 01:23:43.079
police forces involved. With the condition
confirmed by the court, the Game Forces

827
01:23:43.119 --> 01:23:46.600
are now able to kick action,
including the proper place of Russell Williams from

828
01:23:46.600 --> 01:23:51.640
the Armed forces determination and ball backer
is paid from the data, arrest,

829
01:23:53.960 --> 01:24:00.159
the rule of his medals and all
other measures available to us. To be

830
01:24:00.239 --> 01:24:03.640
clear, it will not be a
separate military court martial as to being blow

831
01:24:03.840 --> 01:24:09.720
clearly states that there cannot be two
trials with the same crime. I also

832
01:24:09.800 --> 01:24:14.199
wish to point out that under the
superabuation end there are no brows to revoke

833
01:24:14.279 --> 01:24:16.680
his pension, and then a court
martial will not have any impact on these

834
01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:23.600
a crude benefits. I spent this
morning here meeting with personnel of eight Wing

835
01:24:24.000 --> 01:24:29.199
and with members of the vocal communities
in the face of the statement of facts

836
01:24:29.600 --> 01:24:33.000
read in court and widely reported by
the media. All of us will reflect,

837
01:24:33.079 --> 01:24:36.760
in part reflecting on the events that
have taken place and are having trouble

838
01:24:36.840 --> 01:24:42.800
finding the right words express our feeling. The end of this trial and yet

839
01:24:42.800 --> 01:24:46.880
becoming sentencing will allow us military hand
civilians alike to have a form of closure

840
01:24:47.880 --> 01:24:54.359
and to know or to now begin
to focus on the aid. We recognized

841
01:24:54.359 --> 01:24:59.159
the need to come together and yield
as a community. We are doing everything

842
01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:02.119
we can to us as those in
need of counseling or other support. In

843
01:25:02.319 --> 01:25:06.840
fact, we urged anyone who is
feeling upset or concerned to seek assistance and

844
01:25:08.000 --> 01:25:13.479
to talk about their emotions. From
what I've seen today at eight Win,

845
01:25:14.520 --> 01:25:18.159
while the our morale and says Comedians
have been shaken, we remained steadfast in

846
01:25:18.199 --> 01:25:24.800
our commitment to defending Canada and Canadians. I'm so proud of the personality at

847
01:25:24.840 --> 01:25:30.119
eight Way facing the ordeal. They
responded superbly by focusing on the operational mission

848
01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:36.079
at hand and by redoubling effort and
intensity. All the other Air Force wings

849
01:25:36.079 --> 01:25:42.319
across the country look to them as
an example of determination. While doing so,

850
01:25:42.600 --> 01:25:45.840
we will not forget Madie Frans Cobo, Jessica Lloyd, and the other

851
01:25:46.000 --> 01:25:51.039
victims and their families. They will
remain in our thoughts and prayers forever