1 00:00:28,359 --> 00:00:31,480 Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willis your host, and 2 00:00:31,719 --> 00:00:34,399 this is a pre recorded show. I may be in the chat room, 3 00:00:34,719 --> 00:00:38,039 but this is a pre recorded show because I am going to be on the 4 00:00:38,119 --> 00:00:41,119 road while this is airing, and I'm not sure if I'm going to be 5 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:45,039 able to have access to good internet or any of that, so I decided 6 00:00:45,079 --> 00:00:49,520 to pre record with our great guest today, Garrett Graff. He's a distinguished 7 00:00:49,679 --> 00:00:56,000 journalist and internationally best selling historian and he spent nearly two decades covering politics, 8 00:00:56,039 --> 00:01:00,759 technology, national security and all that. He has a a book that's out 9 00:01:02,679 --> 00:01:04,840 and it's a very interesting books. In the name of the book is UFO, 10 00:01:06,480 --> 00:01:11,799 The Inside Story of the US Government Search for Alien Life Here and out 11 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:17,799 There. And thank you all for supporting the show and check out our website 12 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:22,439 PODCASTUFO dot com. And I'm bringing in our guests right now. Hello, 13 00:01:22,519 --> 00:01:26,760 Garrett, Welcome, Thanks so much for having me, Thank you for being 14 00:01:26,799 --> 00:01:30,719 here. And you this I have to say right off the bat, what 15 00:01:30,719 --> 00:01:34,599 what sparked your interest enough to write, you know, do a deep dive 16 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:42,680 and and write this book. Yeah. I am not someone who has spent 17 00:01:42,719 --> 00:01:49,519 a lifetime on the subject I was not someone raised on the X Files or 18 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,159 Star Trek, or someone who devours sci fi novels in my spare time. 19 00:01:53,200 --> 00:02:00,560 I'm not a lifelong ufologist. I'm someone who covers national security. I've covered 20 00:02:00,640 --> 00:02:07,759 national security in Washington for twenty years. My previous books are about things like 21 00:02:07,879 --> 00:02:15,159 nuclear weapons in the Cold War, the War on Terrorism, the cybersecurity. 22 00:02:15,159 --> 00:02:24,439 My book preceding this one was about Watergate and Richard Nixon's presidency. And what 23 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:31,879 got me interested in this subject was I began to see and feel this change 24 00:02:32,039 --> 00:02:38,080 in the way that people in and around national security circles in Washington were talking 25 00:02:38,319 --> 00:02:45,639 about UFOs and what the government now calls UAPs. That there was, as 26 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:50,960 your viewers and listeners know, this series of reporting by Politico and The New 27 00:02:51,039 --> 00:03:00,960 York Times in twenty seventeen about more extensive Pentagon efforts studying UFOs than anyone had 28 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:07,159 understood existed until then. There was this follow up reporting about Navy pilots Navy 29 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:15,800 aviators who had seen and had encounters with craft that they felt defied, you 30 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:21,400 know, physics as they understood it, that moved in ways that they could 31 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:24,719 not understand and that they believed was technology. That the US couldn't match, 32 00:03:25,639 --> 00:03:31,719 and you began to see these conversations in and around Washington change and shift, 33 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:37,879 And for me, there was one very specific moment that got me interested in 34 00:03:38,719 --> 00:03:44,360 this sort of going from like a background noise story to something I was interested 35 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,719 in writing a book about, which was In December twenty twenty, John Brennan 36 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,039 gave an interview to a DC journalist named Tyler Callen. Now John Brennan, 37 00:03:55,080 --> 00:04:00,199 of course, was in twenty twenty, had just wrapped up the better part 38 00:04:00,199 --> 00:04:05,240 of a decade as CIA Director and White House Homeland Security Advisor, and he 39 00:04:08,159 --> 00:04:15,560 was a career, lifelong intelligence officer. I've covered him, I've interviewed him. 40 00:04:15,759 --> 00:04:19,240 He's a really serious, thoughtful guy who has spent you know, most 41 00:04:19,439 --> 00:04:26,560 of the twenty first century at the upper ranks of the US intelligence community. 42 00:04:26,879 --> 00:04:32,560 And he said in this December twenty twenty interview this incredibly weird answer to a 43 00:04:32,639 --> 00:04:38,000 question about UFOs, where he said, you know, yes, there are 44 00:04:38,040 --> 00:04:41,879 things out there that puzzle us. We don't know what they are. And 45 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:46,040 then, in very tortured syntax, he said something along the lines of and 46 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:51,800 some might say this phenomenon could constitute what some might recognize as a new form 47 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:58,720 of life. And that incredibly odd statement for someone like John Brennan to make, 48 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:06,160 and particularly in my view, because there can't be that many things that 49 00:05:06,319 --> 00:05:12,519 puzzle John Brennan. Like if he woke up in the morning wanting the answer 50 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:16,480 to a question, there's a massive, sixty billion dollars a year intelligence apparatus 51 00:05:16,519 --> 00:05:19,920 that goes out and tries to find it for him. And so if he 52 00:05:20,079 --> 00:05:26,959 was leaving office saying, yeah, this whole UFO thing really puzzles me, 53 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:32,040 that felt like something that was worth diving into more as a book subject. 54 00:05:32,040 --> 00:05:43,199 And so this book tries to tell to related and intertwined threads going back eighty 55 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,800 years or so to the dawn of the flying saucer age in the nineteen forties, 56 00:05:48,079 --> 00:05:55,639 both the military and the government's work on UFOs and understanding UFOs here, 57 00:05:56,079 --> 00:06:00,879 as well as the evolving science and astronomy about the size and scope of the 58 00:06:00,959 --> 00:06:06,959 universe. You know what they call the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, right right, 59 00:06:08,879 --> 00:06:13,519 So I bet as you're doing the research for this book, you're probably 60 00:06:13,519 --> 00:06:16,480 shaking your head. You probably learned so much that you had no idea. 61 00:06:16,600 --> 00:06:19,040 I mean, that's what happened with me. You know, I had I 62 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:24,879 had what I consider an unexplained UFO citing back in two thousand and seven, 63 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,879 really didn't pay that much attention to the topic at all. But after I 64 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:31,120 had that, I started looking into the topic and then thinking, wow, 65 00:06:31,240 --> 00:06:35,319 you know, these aren't all tinfoil hatters. These are some serious people talking 66 00:06:35,360 --> 00:06:40,639 about some serious things, you know, And we call it, you know, 67 00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:45,120 the modern UFO era of nineteen forty seven forward. But there's been things, 68 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:47,199 you know, unexplained things, of course, you know, the further 69 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,240 back you have, the further back you go, the less state you have, 70 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:55,079 of course, and you know, but there's been mysterious things, you 71 00:06:55,120 --> 00:07:00,040 know, reported for you know, centuries. So it's really fascinating when you 72 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,800 look into it real deeply like that. But so I'm just asking you, 73 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:10,639 what, what was the most kind of thing that you can think of right 74 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,879 now that kind of stood out that you didn't you never knew before when you 75 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:18,240 started looking into this. So to me, I think the thing that most 76 00:07:19,079 --> 00:07:28,839 wowed me in my research was coming to understand just how much our understanding of 77 00:07:28,879 --> 00:07:32,519 the size, scale and scope of the universe has changed in recent decades. 78 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:39,639 You know, as late as the nineteen nineties, we didn't understand that there 79 00:07:39,680 --> 00:07:44,879 was a single planet outside of our own Solar system, and we now believe 80 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:51,480 effectively every star has planets, and that a large number, not necessarily a 81 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:58,759 large percentage, but a large total number of those planets across the universe are 82 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:03,000 going to fall into what'side just called that Goldilock zone, the not too hot, 83 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:09,360 not too cold, capable of supporting water, capable of supporting an atmosphere, 84 00:08:11,439 --> 00:08:16,519 and would be habitable to life as we understand it and would recognize it, 85 00:08:18,519 --> 00:08:22,920 and that across the universe. Now we now believe that there are one 86 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:31,120 sex tillion habitable planets, and that's a billion trillion habitable planets, and so 87 00:08:31,919 --> 00:08:37,200 to me, you know, yeah, it's an incredible number. And you 88 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:41,320 know, you can believe the chance of life is rare. You can believe 89 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:46,279 the chance of intelligent life is even more rare. But like, it's hard 90 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:50,440 to think that we are a one in sextillion chance across the universe. And 91 00:08:52,440 --> 00:09:01,000 particularly again as we come to understand the way that the universe has evolved, 92 00:09:01,360 --> 00:09:07,559 you know, the James Web Space Telescope is transforming the way that we think 93 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,960 about and understand the beginnings of the universe, and that you know, we're 94 00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:18,360 actually a really young solar system and a very old universe. You know, 95 00:09:18,399 --> 00:09:22,679 we're about four and a half billion years old in a fourteen billion year old 96 00:09:22,799 --> 00:09:30,639 universe. And the James Webspace Telescope has discovered galaxies and stars that we're forming 97 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:39,320 within three hundred billion years of the creation of the universe. And so you're 98 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:46,279 left with these like incredible thought experiments about you know, we could have seen 99 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:56,480 multiple billion years civilizations rise and fall. You know, civilizations that across the 100 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:03,120 universe filled with intelligent life, you know, so advanced is to be unrecognizable 101 00:10:03,159 --> 00:10:11,360 to us and have those civilizations rise and fall before our solar system even begins 102 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:16,919 to gather out of dust, and so to me, you know, I 103 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:26,240 start this book with this argument that I think is increasingly undeniable, that the 104 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:33,919 math is on the side of the aliens, that our universe probably both teams 105 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:39,399 with life and teams with intelligent life, whether any of that life is close 106 00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:45,840 enough that we will ever notice it or have meaningful contact with it, or 107 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:54,399 whether our human civilization will last long enough to explore the universe at the scale 108 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:58,320 that we need to in order to find it. Those to me are much 109 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:03,080 more open questions. And I think, you know, actually quite the opposite. 110 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:11,159 There's some very strong evidence that, you know, we could be functionally 111 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:18,039 alone in the universe at this particular moment, even if across history there there 112 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:24,320 is a lot of life and a lot of intelligent life. Interesting and you 113 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:26,000 know, I've thought, I've heard other people talk about, you know, 114 00:11:26,240 --> 00:11:31,279 societies lining up, and I've mentioned this a number of times. An astrophysicist 115 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:37,799 visiting NASA, a scientist that was on this show, said that his basically, 116 00:11:39,279 --> 00:11:46,879 he and his fellows having conversations that if any society goes through the technological 117 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:52,240 bottleneck without blowing themselves up, then they're you know, most likely we'll be 118 00:11:52,279 --> 00:11:54,080 traveling the stars, you know. And I thought that was quite, you 119 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:58,639 know, quite an interesting quote. And I you know, one of the 120 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:05,480 one of the things about the possibilities, and you just mentioned that a mass 121 00:12:05,559 --> 00:12:13,720 number that no one could possibly conceive of the possibilities. Another astrophysicist I had 122 00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:18,120 recently on the show said that they, you know, statistically, they're thinking 123 00:12:18,159 --> 00:12:24,840 about in our galaxy alone, about forty billion Earth like planets, which is 124 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:31,679 it's all fascinating to me. Now, I know a lot of most time 125 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:37,559 I hear the argument when I speak with people like you, and also you 126 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:45,000 know many scientists, is the outrageous distances. And a good way to get 127 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:50,879 a good scale on that is to say, if the sun was in Washington, 128 00:12:50,919 --> 00:12:54,440 d C. And the size of a grapefruit, the Earth would be 129 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:58,039 the size of a ball and a ballpoint pen, and the nearest star would 130 00:12:58,039 --> 00:13:03,480 be in San Francisco. That's about That's that's putting it to scale, and 131 00:13:03,519 --> 00:13:07,200 it's really it's really hard to imagine, you know, the vast distances. 132 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:11,720 But the one thing I've always thinking of it, and I'm not saying that 133 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:16,080 what we're being visited by by is aliens. I don't know, you know, 134 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,399 I don't have the answer to that, and I always kind of run 135 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:22,039 away from people that do have the answer. I think they do, I 136 00:13:22,200 --> 00:13:31,399 should say, uh, But I've always thought maybe there's something about space time 137 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:37,080 that they know that we don't know, something about physics that is figured out 138 00:13:37,080 --> 00:13:41,080 when you think about you just talked about the possibilities of you know, an 139 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:46,360 intelligence growing over millions of years or beyond us. You know, the type 140 00:13:46,360 --> 00:13:50,480 of thing, So who knows what can be figured out. I know you 141 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:54,360 can't defy physics, really, but but who knows if something can be discovered 142 00:13:54,399 --> 00:14:01,639 within physics that could that could actually solve the travel situation. So I don't 143 00:14:01,879 --> 00:14:05,720 you know, I mean, these are just thoughts, you know, I 144 00:14:05,799 --> 00:14:11,320 just wonder what you think about all that. Absolutely, yeah, And I 145 00:14:11,360 --> 00:14:16,519 think answering that requires unpacking a couple of different things. One is, I 146 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:22,440 think one of the challenges that a lot of people have in discussing this topic 147 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:33,759 is people try to come at the topic of UFOs and extraterrestrials broadly as either 148 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:39,720 a full skeptic or a full believer, and that you know, when you 149 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:50,679 read books about this subject, they are generally either dedicated towards proving that aliens 150 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:56,519 exist and starting with the premise that, of course, aliens exist, or 151 00:14:58,399 --> 00:15:03,000 starting with the premise that, you know, UFOs are not real and aliens 152 00:15:03,039 --> 00:15:07,120 are not real, and aliens do not exist, and that they're sort of 153 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:11,720 written by full skeptics. And you know, there's a long intellectual tradition of 154 00:15:11,759 --> 00:15:16,440 these, you know, going back to Donald Menzel at Harvard in the in 155 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:22,279 the forties and fifties. You know, I tried to land somewhere in between, 156 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:33,440 because I think that the most likely case requires holding some views that may 157 00:15:33,519 --> 00:15:39,120 seem contradictory at once at the same time. So what I mean by that 158 00:15:39,679 --> 00:15:48,919 is, you know, I think that I settle somewhere where extraterrestrials exist. 159 00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:58,159 We're probably too far away from them to have meaningful contact with them, but 160 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:07,480 those represent a real phenomenon. UAPs represent a real phenomenon, and that the 161 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:15,759 answers to what UFOs and UAPs could be could still blow our minds and transform 162 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:22,039 our understanding of the universe and our place in it, even if it ends 163 00:16:22,120 --> 00:16:26,879 up being a terrestrial explanation and not an extraterrestrial explanation, you know, to 164 00:16:27,039 --> 00:16:30,960 your point on physics, Physics to me is a huge part of this that 165 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:45,480 I think the answer to UFOs and UAPs almost certainly is most simply that the 166 00:16:45,519 --> 00:16:49,360 world and the universe is a much weirder place than we currently understand it to 167 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:56,600 be, And then I think we should be humble about just how weird the 168 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:03,159 world and the universe probably actually is. That a big chunk of UFOs and 169 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:11,759 UAPs are most likely astronomical, meteorological, and atmospheric phenomenon that we don't yet 170 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:18,519 understand. You know, there's just been some interesting research in the last couple 171 00:17:18,599 --> 00:17:22,759 of weeks about the possibility that the Foo fighters in World War Two, those 172 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:30,519 sort of balls of light that seem to track fighter planes at night through the 173 00:17:30,519 --> 00:17:40,000 skies of Europe probably represent plasma that plasma balls that we did not really understand 174 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:45,880 or recognize at the time. Then you get into the physics category, which 175 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:52,319 is, you know, I think that our biggest fault in this is probably 176 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:57,119 assuming that we actually have any understanding of what physics actually does right now in 177 00:17:57,319 --> 00:18:06,519 our lifetime. That the again, we need to approach our understanding of physics 178 00:18:06,599 --> 00:18:14,559 with a great deal of humility, that this science that we consider ourselves so 179 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:21,480 knowledgeable about really is, for the most part, only a few decades and 180 00:18:21,559 --> 00:18:30,400 a century old. Last January, the world's oldest human died. She was 181 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:34,880 a French nun. She was one hundred and eighteen years old, and Harvard 182 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:44,680 Astronomy Chair Avi Lobe points out that everything that we know about relativity and quantum 183 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:51,279 physics we learned in her lifetime, So imagine how much more we have to 184 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:59,279 learn about physics in one more human lifetime. Imagine what we might learn in 185 00:18:59,559 --> 00:19:02,920 five hundred years, or a thousand years, or ten thousand years or a 186 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:07,640 million years. You know, last summer, for the first time, we 187 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:21,599 spotted in space the gravitational waves that move through space and bend space time. 188 00:19:21,839 --> 00:19:30,079 We had theorized that they existed, but had never actually spotted one in real 189 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:37,119 life until last summer. The Italian astrophysicist Carlo Rivelli, he has a new 190 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:44,079 book out arguing for the existence of what he calls white holes, which is 191 00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:52,160 basically his theory for what happens at the end of a black hole. And 192 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:55,759 he says, you know, look, we've never seen a white hole, 193 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:04,519 but our knowledge of black hole is recent enough that when he started his major 194 00:20:04,599 --> 00:20:11,880 academic appointment in the year two thousand, his department chair came to him and 195 00:20:11,960 --> 00:20:17,519 said, you know, Carlo, you don't really believe in black holes, 196 00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:21,759 do you, Because in two thousand we had never actually seen a black hole 197 00:20:21,799 --> 00:20:27,200 before, and now we understand that the universe is widely populated with them. 198 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:34,680 So you know, you get into these questions about how intelligent beings, intelligent 199 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:42,440 civilizations, other civilizations could move throughout our space, and you know, I 200 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:51,319 don't think we have the foggiest idea about the technologies or wrinkles in physics that 201 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:56,839 might allow for some of these things to happen. And by the way, 202 00:20:56,039 --> 00:21:00,440 the answers could be really really, really weird. You know, this could 203 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:07,119 be parallel universe's, interdimensional travel, time travel from the past or future. 204 00:21:07,519 --> 00:21:15,839 Things again that would blow our minds. Yeah, it would change forever the 205 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:21,359 way that we look at the world and the universe and still not be aliens. 206 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:26,920 And that, to me is like part of the challenge in uncovering all 207 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:33,920 of this is just really admitting up front just how humble we probably should be 208 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:37,440 about our understanding of the world. Right, I agree with all that. 209 00:21:38,160 --> 00:21:41,920 I'm going to share this because this just was sent to me today. I 210 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:48,680 thought it was really interesting. And this is a FedEx pilots say film to 211 00:21:48,759 --> 00:21:53,839 UFO that followed their cargo plane for over a half an hour, and it's 212 00:21:55,000 --> 00:21:59,039 very similar to the Foo Fighters. That's when you mentioned that, I'm going 213 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:04,359 to bring up the video here, and it shows up they did did video. 214 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:15,359 Whoops. Okay, let's try that again, and it looks like something 215 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:22,440 plasma. Now that the odd thing. I don't know if you can hear 216 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:29,680 the audio of this. But are you hearing the audio of this? Okay, 217 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,839 so yeah, it's good because of some of the language. But anyway, 218 00:22:34,079 --> 00:22:37,119 it's showing this, it's showing this thing. They're they're filming the FedEx 219 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:44,079 pilots are filming this and not understanding what it is. But this thing followed 220 00:22:44,599 --> 00:22:48,519 them, you know, the strange thing. And you know, and I 221 00:22:48,559 --> 00:22:51,880 agree, you know, it's hard to know. I think we know very 222 00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:59,680 very little. You know. There's this great quote by Newton that basically says, 223 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,160 what we know is a drop, what we don't know is an ocean. 224 00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:06,079 And you know, I really think that's true. We have no clue 225 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:10,680 of this. And so the FOO fighters and this, you know, they 226 00:23:10,720 --> 00:23:15,519 seem to be have some type of intelligence following something like they used to They 227 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:21,160 used to follow along the wings of you know, purportedly alongside the wings of 228 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:26,160 the craft. I spoke to an American Airlines pilot. He was dead heading 229 00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:30,039 on a flight, you know, to get to another location, sitting right 230 00:23:30,039 --> 00:23:36,279 beside me. And this was right when the New York Times article came out 231 00:23:37,000 --> 00:23:41,839 in December of twenty seventeen, and I was flying like for Christmas, and 232 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,359 I said to him, Hey, did you catch that article about UFOs and 233 00:23:45,079 --> 00:23:49,039 you know, he was a pilot and American Eyelines pilot and he said no, 234 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,640 but I know they exist. And I said, well, tell me 235 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,799 what you know what happened and he said, a green orb was for over 236 00:23:56,839 --> 00:24:00,759 three hundred miles. He was in an F sixteen when he was in the 237 00:24:02,039 --> 00:24:07,000 Air Force and his Weisel weapons operator in the back was sleeping, which I 238 00:24:07,039 --> 00:24:12,440 heard they never do. He said he was relocating a plane and so he 239 00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:15,839 let him sleep and it lit up the whole cockpit in green and followed him 240 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:18,440 for like three hundred miles. And he said he was never going to report 241 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,440 that. He just was, you know, the stigma of the whole thing. 242 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:25,480 So I asked him, I said, would you mind being on my 243 00:24:25,519 --> 00:24:27,599 show anonymous and talking about and said no way. He said, I'm not 244 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:33,039 going to and I'm not going to give anything out there that could challenge his, 245 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:37,119 you know, career. So it's kind of sad that has a stigma 246 00:24:37,319 --> 00:24:41,880 because you know, you're have done enough research in it that it is some 247 00:24:42,000 --> 00:24:45,920 type of real phenomenon that is happening. People are really seeing things. It's 248 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,440 not like, I mean, I know I'd have to say, I would 249 00:24:49,519 --> 00:24:52,319 have to have been drugged or something to have seen what I've seen and not 250 00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:56,720 be above me. You know what I saw back in two thousand and seven, 251 00:24:57,319 --> 00:25:03,240 which I just that just kept me going on this whole topic because it 252 00:25:03,319 --> 00:25:07,759 was it was actually a disc shaped thing. It had a blue glow, 253 00:25:07,400 --> 00:25:12,359 and it moved and stopped and then moved again, and it made no absolutely 254 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,920 no sound at all. And that was the most airy part for me, 255 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,119 because I just thought, you know, this hou is this thing doing that 256 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,880 and you don't hear anything. But I mean, there is an explanation for 257 00:25:23,079 --> 00:25:26,920 whatever we see, no matter what it is when people see ghosts, So 258 00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:30,559 whatever it is, there's always an explanation. But like you're saying, we 259 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:37,079 may not understand what that explanation is. Yeah, let me give you two 260 00:25:38,079 --> 00:25:45,079 examples about, you know, just how new our search to understand all of 261 00:25:45,079 --> 00:25:52,759 this actually is. You know, we have not even begun to do the 262 00:25:52,799 --> 00:26:02,680 low hanging list of all low hanging fruit of trying to search the the universe 263 00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:11,960 for you know, messages or proof of extraterrestrial civilizations. You know that you'll 264 00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:18,480 you'll hear critics of the SETI program, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence. You 265 00:26:18,519 --> 00:26:22,039 know, talk about well, we've been listening for you know, fifty sixty 266 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,000 years and you know, haven't heard anything. You know, blah blah blah 267 00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:30,559 blah blah. And you know we're looking at like tiny fractions of the sky. 268 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:41,279 And you again, concrete examples about that we have not even searched the 269 00:26:41,319 --> 00:26:52,640 Moon at a level of detail yet sufficient two recognize if there are other lunar 270 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:57,039 landers on the Moon that uh, you know, this is not me saying 271 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:00,680 I believe that there are other lunar landers on the Moon. This is me 272 00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:10,680 saying our search is so new that the one place we have left a lander, 273 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,160 we haven't even bothered to check whether anyone else left a land or there. 274 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:19,680 And you know that it's only been in the last couple of years we've 275 00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:26,799 had comprehensive photography of the Moon at a level of detail great enough to search, 276 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,640 and we have never actually applied the you know, computing power and artificial 277 00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:37,680 intelligence at this point yet to do that study. Second example, you know 278 00:27:37,799 --> 00:27:41,359 you talked about, you know, the possibility, uh, you know, 279 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:48,519 the challenge of covering space, uh is the vast distances that you know you're 280 00:27:48,640 --> 00:28:00,440 looking at, you know, any any civilization that conquers interstellar travel would probably 281 00:28:00,799 --> 00:28:03,440 need to figure out how to do it at a fraction of the speed of 282 00:28:03,519 --> 00:28:07,880 light. Not the speed of light, not a large fraction of the speed 283 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,240 of light, but you know, some small fraction of the speed of light, 284 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:17,400 which is, you know, far faster than anything we have yet designed 285 00:28:17,519 --> 00:28:26,599 to go. We don't have on Earth right now the technology to recognize something 286 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:33,160 moving through our own solar system at a fraction of the speed of light. 287 00:28:33,079 --> 00:28:37,160 So, you know, one of the weird answers you're left with in the 288 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:47,359 you know, among these thought experiments about interstellar travel and extraterrestrial visitors is our 289 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:56,720 solar system could be currently being traversed by alien craft daily, weekly, monthly, 290 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:02,160 once a decade, once a century, you know, once a millennia, 291 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,640 and we wouldn't have any technology right now that could recognize those craft as 292 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:15,960 they come through our solar system. And you know, you think about and 293 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,160 you and I were talking a little bit about this before the show starts. 294 00:29:19,559 --> 00:29:30,720 One of the biggest fallacies I think in the world of ufology is that anyone 295 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:34,200 would care that we're here in the first place. That you know, we 296 00:29:34,319 --> 00:29:45,880 have this sense that aliens would bother covering the vast distances of interstellar space to 297 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:51,119 come and check on us, whether that's for friendship purposes or to invade us 298 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:56,240 and conquer us and use our organs for food or energy. That you know, 299 00:29:56,279 --> 00:30:03,519 Hollywood has sort of given us these three different first contact scenarios. They 300 00:30:03,559 --> 00:30:12,160 are all unambiguous and definitive. You know, you have the Independence Day flying 301 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:18,319 saucer over the White House, take me to your leader, alien visit. 302 00:30:18,279 --> 00:30:26,720 You have the Jody Foster contact radio message to Earth from outer space. And 303 00:30:26,759 --> 00:30:33,359 then you have you know, the ET version, which is the stranded loan 304 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:40,359 traveler coming by Earth. And the truth of the matter is probably no one 305 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:45,519 knows we are here, and even if they did know, they wouldn't necessarily 306 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:52,160 care. That this idea of first contact visiting Earth in a clear and unambiguous 307 00:30:52,200 --> 00:31:03,039 way is probably too human centric. That the first sign of an intelligent universe, 308 00:31:03,039 --> 00:31:10,799 intelligent civilization that we are likely to see is effectively a piece of space 309 00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:17,960 trash traversing our Solar system. That you know, an old defunct space probe, 310 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:23,720 a wreckage of a spacecraft, you know, wreckage, or a piece 311 00:31:23,759 --> 00:31:32,720 of some alien space base. You know, just sort of floating through our 312 00:31:32,759 --> 00:31:38,559 solar system, the equivalent again as Abby Lobe talks about it, of an 313 00:31:38,599 --> 00:31:45,319 empty plastic bag blowing through our cosmic backyard. That will you know, look 314 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:51,920 up one day with our telescopes and see something and say, well, that's 315 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,640 not from our Walmart, Like who's Walmart? Do you think that's that's visiting 316 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:00,119 from? And you know, you look at some like Carl Sagan, who 317 00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:08,720 in the twentieth century was simultaneously the biggest proponent of the search for extraterrestrial intelligence 318 00:32:08,759 --> 00:32:16,839 and also the biggest skeptic that aliens were visiting Earth as UFOs. And his 319 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:24,359 argument was never that aliens don't visit Earth. His argument was that statistically you 320 00:32:24,359 --> 00:32:30,240 would only expect an alien civilization to pass by every one hundred thousand or two 321 00:32:30,359 --> 00:32:37,160 hundred thousand years, that they would be more likely to treat Earth as the 322 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:42,079 equivalent of a rest area on the Jersey Turnpike, sort of somewhere where you're 323 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:51,720 stopping off on your way from one interesting place to another. And that Sagan's 324 00:32:51,799 --> 00:33:00,000 argument was not aliens don't visit Earth as UFOs. It's it's that it's statistically 325 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:04,960 unlikely that the thing that you happened to see last Tuesday out your window. 326 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,680 Is the one time in the last one hundred thousand or two hundred thousand years 327 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:15,079 that an alien happened to be stopping by? Well, yeah, if you 328 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:21,519 take that argument at face value, I mean, it's an opinion that's really 329 00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:27,640 based, not truly on anything that we really know or don't know in my 330 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:34,240 opinion, but here is. And I know that you know, we're looking 331 00:33:34,240 --> 00:33:37,920 for techno signatures with the web. And another thing something that you said about 332 00:33:38,799 --> 00:33:45,160 whether they'd care or not. We don't know whether they would care or not. 333 00:33:45,279 --> 00:33:47,400 I agree with you, but they could also care too to explore, 334 00:33:49,039 --> 00:33:52,519 so they could care to take a look. And I have to tell you 335 00:33:52,559 --> 00:33:53,960 this. I've told this a number of times on this show because it was 336 00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:59,880 long before I really had much of an interest. Is back in the ninth 337 00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:05,039 teen nineties, I had a gentleman I remember his name, Tom Bowden. 338 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,159 He was an insurance adjuster. I've been not adjuster. He was an insurance 339 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:13,400 broker and he sold me basically life insurance, and we went over the plans 340 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:15,760 and stuff, and he sat with me in my house. He was older 341 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:21,039 than myself and eventually in the conversation. We got to talking about other things, 342 00:34:21,079 --> 00:34:23,719 and you know, he said, he talked about being in Vietnam and 343 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,840 I said, wow, what was that like? And he said, well, 344 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,559 it was pretty unusual because of what I did. And I said, 345 00:34:31,559 --> 00:34:36,159 well, what did you do? And he said, I worked for a 346 00:34:36,199 --> 00:34:43,320 special section of the Air Force and we were trying to understand what the UFOs 347 00:34:43,519 --> 00:34:46,079 were that were showing up during napalming and you know, situations like that. 348 00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:51,199 So I go really, and he said, yeah, something was going on 349 00:34:51,960 --> 00:34:53,360 and it was our job to try to figure it out, you know, 350 00:34:53,440 --> 00:34:57,719 what it was. And we never really could get too far. And so 351 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:01,519 he was on his way out the door that that night after we got done 352 00:35:01,519 --> 00:35:06,800 talking, and so I said, hey, by the way, what what 353 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,239 what does it? Did the government tell you what they thought they were? 354 00:35:10,440 --> 00:35:15,360 And he looks at me and he said that we're a petri dish, and 355 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:22,039 uh, you probably I had never heard it before, and since that that 356 00:35:22,159 --> 00:35:25,519 whole thought. But I mean, that's just an interesting thing to throw out 357 00:35:25,559 --> 00:35:30,199 there, you know, that would imply that, you know, we were 358 00:35:31,199 --> 00:35:36,639 It sounds like that were something seated and we're being observed, you know, 359 00:35:37,079 --> 00:35:43,599 according to his you know, his thought and what the government was claiming that 360 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,079 they could be. Now, I'm just putting that out there and not saying 361 00:35:46,079 --> 00:35:52,519 that. I've tried to look this person up very deeply, and I found 362 00:35:52,559 --> 00:35:55,519 someone out in the Midwest with the same name, insurance broker, but it 363 00:35:55,559 --> 00:35:59,199 was not him. I mean trying to get him back on, you know, 364 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:01,559 to talk to him these days when I'm doing the show, just to 365 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:06,000 can you elaborate more on that. You know, what you were talking about. 366 00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:09,119 It's interesting. I have nothing to back it up, but it's interesting, 367 00:36:12,119 --> 00:36:16,760 yeah, and I think you know, to me, there's again, 368 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:27,119 I think part of untangling this subject and trying to understand it is recognizing that 369 00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:36,719 there are credible witnesses who point to something without necessarily having to prejudice what that 370 00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:44,519 something actually is, and that you know, to me, there is a 371 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:53,960 series of credible and reliable witnesses across decades, you know, across many of 372 00:36:54,000 --> 00:37:05,159 these sightings, who all point to something or some things, multiple possibilities existing, 373 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:10,440 as you know UAPs an unidentified anomalist phenomenon, and that you know, 374 00:37:10,519 --> 00:37:17,559 you look at these navy aviators in recent years, you look at, you 375 00:37:17,599 --> 00:37:22,039 know, someone one of the cases I talked about in the book is nineteen 376 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:29,639 sixty four Socorro, New Mexico. A local policeman there named Milani Zamora who 377 00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:37,079 is chasing a speeder on his way out of town and see here's an explosion 378 00:37:37,199 --> 00:37:42,199 off in the desert and sees what he thinks is an overturned car. He 379 00:37:42,519 --> 00:37:46,599 turns his car, his cruiser off the road, begins to sort of bump 380 00:37:46,679 --> 00:37:52,199 up and down through the gullies over to this overturned car. As he gets 381 00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:58,719 closer, he describes it as a football shaped craft with two figures outside that 382 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:04,559 get inside, and then the craft takes off. Now there's a new Mexico 383 00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:09,960 state trooper who shows up a couple of minutes afterward, sees Lonnie Zamora shaken 384 00:38:10,079 --> 00:38:19,880 up by whatever it is that he has encountered. He is. The FBI 385 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:28,880 and the military respond and find some circumstantial evidence that something was physically located where 386 00:38:29,079 --> 00:38:32,119 Lennie Zamora says this craft was out in the desert. You know, something 387 00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:37,679 happened to Lonnie Zamora in the desert that day in nineteen sixty four. And 388 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:45,639 he's a pretty credible witness. You know, he's not someone who had any 389 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:49,320 reason to make it up. As you said, in some of the people 390 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,239 that you've talked to, there's actually a lot of reason to not be the 391 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:58,679 person who comes forward and talks about a UFO encounter. And so to me, 392 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,760 you know, you look at someone like Lannie Zamora, you look at 393 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:09,159 someone like these naval aviators, and it points to me that there's something worth 394 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:21,119 investigating here that is uh deserving of our intention, deserving of greater intention and 395 00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:30,559 focus from the government. And it really strikes me that this is something that 396 00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:37,199 you know, we should be paying more attention to than we are. And 397 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:46,280 again, the chances are that we could find some really amazing world changing answers 398 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:53,159 wrapped up in here, even if the answer is an aliens No. I 399 00:39:53,199 --> 00:39:59,960 agree, And there's been talk lately of you know that the inter dimensional part 400 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:04,760 has always been part of since I've been you know, doing the show for 401 00:40:04,840 --> 00:40:09,559 twelve years, it's always been part of the possibilities. You're hearing that more 402 00:40:09,639 --> 00:40:15,239 and more, and you know, some of the cases that I've looked into, 403 00:40:16,079 --> 00:40:21,360 it would kind of work, you know, from what people are reporting. 404 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,519 But I mean that's just another, like you say, mind bending situation 405 00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:30,159 to try to figure out what that would look like and what that would be 406 00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:35,280 like. You know, for instance, when supposedly if there was craft here 407 00:40:35,639 --> 00:40:43,000 or whatever, if they're interdimensional, how could they stay in this dimension or 408 00:40:43,559 --> 00:40:45,239 get back? Is it a power thing? You know, something done through 409 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:49,039 power? I mean, all these things that we just don't understand. And 410 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:54,000 if that other dimension has to be physically here or can it come from elsewhere? 411 00:40:54,440 --> 00:41:00,679 I mean, it's all, you know, great stuff to think about. 412 00:41:00,159 --> 00:41:04,880 But again, you know, we don't I don't know. Uh So, 413 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,119 I guess I'll ask you this question. Do you think our US government 414 00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:16,199 has more answers than we know about? But just something that if they release 415 00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:22,119 it, it may show of them with some type of weakness in a way 416 00:41:22,159 --> 00:41:25,880 that maybe they can't really explain it all. So why even try to explain 417 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:30,920 any of it? I mean, just puts your thoughts on that. Yeah, 418 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,480 So, I think, to me, again, there's a couple of 419 00:41:34,519 --> 00:41:39,440 different things to unpack in that question. The first is the government is absolutely 420 00:41:39,559 --> 00:41:46,599 covering up the extent of its knowledge about UFOs, probably not for the reasons 421 00:41:46,639 --> 00:41:52,760 that people think. You know. For one thing, there is a cloak 422 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:58,760 of secrecy that overlays a lot of this that is some chunk of what the 423 00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:04,760 public things are UFOI are the government's own secret test projects. You know, 424 00:42:05,559 --> 00:42:09,320 historically we've seen things like the U two, the SR seventy one, the 425 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:16,360 A twelve ox Cart, the F one seventeen UH Nighthawk, the B two 426 00:42:16,519 --> 00:42:23,320 bomber, you know, b what the public thinks are UFOs, but they 427 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:29,800 are the government's own secret test projects. Those projects are very much still in 428 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:37,000 existence. You know, just last fall we saw the military UH testing for 429 00:42:37,039 --> 00:42:46,519 the first time the the B twenty one stealth bomber, new generation stealth bomber. 430 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:52,480 You know, there are other stealth drones and planes and things that we 431 00:42:53,079 --> 00:42:58,920 are surely not aware of. There's another cloak of secrecy, which is some 432 00:42:59,039 --> 00:43:05,559 chunk of what the public again considers UFO sightings are advanced adversary technology being tested 433 00:43:05,599 --> 00:43:09,719 against us. You know, this is Chinese drones, Russian drones, Iranian 434 00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:21,920 drones, and that you almost certainly see a large number of public UFO sightings 435 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:30,920 being explained by you know, the government's knowledge of these classified adversary technologies being 436 00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:42,800 tested, and the government gets really squarely talking about what it's understanding of other 437 00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:46,559 things in our airspace is because it doesn't like talking about its sensors. It 438 00:43:46,599 --> 00:43:51,880 doesn't like saying what its sensors detect, what its radar detects, what it 439 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:57,280 notices, what it doesn't notice. And so almost certainly the government knows a 440 00:43:57,320 --> 00:44:00,760 fair deal about things like that that the just don't talk to, you know, 441 00:44:00,800 --> 00:44:09,360 that they can't talk about without giving away sensor technology. Then you get 442 00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:15,800 to that question. Then you get to the question that that you're started asking, 443 00:44:15,039 --> 00:44:24,920 which is is the government covering up meaningful knowledge of contact with aliens or 444 00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:32,159 extraterrestrials or non human intelligences? You know, are there crashed spacecraft, are 445 00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:39,360 there uh or covered alien bodies or what you know? The the buzzword now 446 00:44:39,480 --> 00:44:49,840 is you know, non human biologic and that uh you know. I think 447 00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:53,760 there's a lot of reasons to be dubious that the government is covering up meaningful 448 00:44:53,840 --> 00:45:05,280 knowledge about contact uh or or or recovery programs of extraterrestrial knowledge extraterrestrial civilizations, 449 00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:14,280 in part because you know this, it is hard to imagine a bigger secret 450 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:22,440 that the government could be keeping and not have any meaningful whispers of it escape. 451 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:29,840 I think actually you're on the right track with where you were heading in 452 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:37,519 your question, which is to me the most likely answer, and certainly what 453 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:43,320 we see documented again and again in the declassified records such as they have exist 454 00:45:43,440 --> 00:45:49,800 and have been shared and made public over the last eighty years, is that 455 00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:57,000 the US government is mostly covering up its ignorance of what UAPs and UFOs actually 456 00:45:57,079 --> 00:46:04,079 are. That much of the evidence that we have for what the government was 457 00:46:04,119 --> 00:46:08,559 covering up at any one given moment is that the government was just as puzzled 458 00:46:08,559 --> 00:46:16,719 about what UFOs and UAPs are as we are, right And I understand without 459 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:22,280 even having to ask you the question that David Grush, you know, came 460 00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:29,039 out with the six extraordinary claim back in June this last year. I was 461 00:46:29,079 --> 00:46:31,639 actually at the Washington d C Hearing when he was in the in the room 462 00:46:31,639 --> 00:46:37,559 at the time when that all happened. And I understand that your reply to 463 00:46:37,599 --> 00:46:40,119 that, before I even ask, would be that you know this is a 464 00:46:40,199 --> 00:46:50,400 secondhand witness. However, I don't know if you followed that the I don't 465 00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:55,760 know what his the director I guess of a ro oh of Sean Kirkpatrick basically 466 00:46:55,800 --> 00:47:00,360 said you know in his letter as he was leading his op ed or whatever 467 00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:06,840 you want to call it that basically saying that you know, he he'd only 468 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:12,159 heard from secondhand witnesses, and I that is that is not true because I 469 00:47:12,159 --> 00:47:15,960 know personally, you know, a firsthand witness that actually went and testified for 470 00:47:16,039 --> 00:47:22,679 four hours, uh with the encounter the that he had. But what I'm 471 00:47:22,679 --> 00:47:29,559 getting at is, uh, how would you feel if there was actually a 472 00:47:29,599 --> 00:47:36,800 testimony of a firsthand witness that claimed that he actually had uh, that they 473 00:47:36,840 --> 00:47:40,800 actually worked on technology, you know with Let's just say, do you think 474 00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:46,079 that would change everything? And things would really be looked into deeply? You 475 00:47:46,119 --> 00:47:50,920 know as far as uh, if these things are compartmentalized, I know you 476 00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,000 probably have a feeling that none of that may uh may or may not exist. 477 00:47:54,079 --> 00:47:59,960 But I'm just saying, do you think that would change things if actually 478 00:48:00,119 --> 00:48:04,960 firsthand witness you know, came forward and you know, went through the whistleblower 479 00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:09,679 whatever the legal the legal channels to do it right. So I think part 480 00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:20,679 of uh, part of part of the challenge of David Gresh's testimony is almost 481 00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:31,079 everything that he says is likely true, maybe even probably true, and it 482 00:48:31,360 --> 00:48:37,559 still doesn't just make that one last little leap that the public makes because the 483 00:48:37,599 --> 00:48:45,840 public doesn't sort of quite understand the nomenclature and the way that the government sort 484 00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:51,920 of speaks and operates. And what I mean by that is, you know, 485 00:48:52,679 --> 00:48:59,679 David Grush really began last spring with this claim. I'm oversimplifying a little 486 00:48:59,679 --> 00:49:07,039 bit, but basically the core of his original claim was the US government has 487 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:14,880 a UFO crash retrieval program that has recovered unknown technology that the government believes is 488 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:22,400 extraterrestrial. I think that almost every aspect of that is almost certainly true, 489 00:49:22,719 --> 00:49:28,239 except for the last little intellectual leap that people make when they hear that. 490 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:34,360 And what I mean by that is, the US government does have a UFO 491 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:37,800 crash retrieval program. It has had one for almost one hundred years. It 492 00:49:37,920 --> 00:49:46,559 dates back to World War One. What was originally called the Foreign Technology Division 493 00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:52,320 of the Army Air Corps, and it is a unit that goes around and 494 00:49:52,559 --> 00:50:02,159 recovers crashed UFOs unidentified flying objects. Is how in the World War Two we 495 00:50:02,199 --> 00:50:09,599 recover German measure Schmidt fighters and Japanese Zeros and Dornier bombers. In the Cold 496 00:50:09,599 --> 00:50:15,599 War, this was the unit that was responsible for picking up Soviet megs from 497 00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:21,400 friendly countries or non aligned countries or you know, battlefields of the Korean War. 498 00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:28,159 UFO is just an unidentified flying object. It doesn't have to be an 499 00:50:28,159 --> 00:50:34,559 extraterrestrial spacecraft. So yes, we have a UFO crash retrieval program. I 500 00:50:34,599 --> 00:50:40,480 would bet also that that UFO crash retrieval program has recovered technology that it doesn't 501 00:50:40,519 --> 00:50:45,119 know what it is. You know, that would seem to me to be 502 00:50:45,519 --> 00:50:51,519 table stakes really for a UFO crash retrieval program is that we're recovering things that 503 00:50:51,559 --> 00:50:57,000 we don't know what they are, either because we're you know, it is 504 00:50:57,239 --> 00:51:01,239 advanced adversary technology we haven't seen before, or or it's you know, pieces 505 00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:06,400 of wreckage that you know, we can't make sense of what that piece of 506 00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,960 wreckage actually is. I would very much believe, and I think it's you 507 00:51:10,000 --> 00:51:15,880 know, almost probable that the government has a warehouse somewhere that's like all of 508 00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:20,360 the weird stuff the government has recovered that we don't know what it is yet. 509 00:51:20,840 --> 00:51:25,119 So like the second part of David Grush's statement is probably also true. 510 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:34,199 I will even believe that there's someone on that team who says, who's looked 511 00:51:34,239 --> 00:51:37,719 at it and says, I believe that this doesn't look like anything humans have 512 00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:43,800 made. You know, I think that this is extraterrestrial. We sort of 513 00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:50,199 all have that coworker whose opinions are, you know, one standard deviation outside 514 00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:58,440 of the rest of the team. Yet, when David Grush says, you 515 00:51:58,440 --> 00:52:04,920 know, the US government has recovered unknown technology that it believes is extraterrestrial, 516 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:13,239 what I think the public heres is that the US government has concluded that it 517 00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:16,360 is extraterrestrial. You know that there was a formal briefing in the situation room 518 00:52:16,400 --> 00:52:22,000 by the Director of National Intelligence to the President of the United States with PowerPoint 519 00:52:22,079 --> 00:52:28,199 slides where she says, you know, uh, it is with a high 520 00:52:28,199 --> 00:52:32,920 degree of confidence and the assessment of seventeen intelligence agencies that we've recovered alien technology. 521 00:52:34,480 --> 00:52:38,039 I don't think that that's happened. I don't think that's happened, probably 522 00:52:38,079 --> 00:52:43,840 for a whole bunch of different reasons, you know, they're not the least 523 00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:47,400 of which is like, that'd be a pretty incredible secret for the government to 524 00:52:47,519 --> 00:52:52,760 have, you know, officially concluded in the process that the government goes through 525 00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:58,800 to reach an official conclusion. So, you know, I think that part 526 00:52:58,840 --> 00:53:06,039 of the challenge of listening to David Grush is that David Grush could be almost 527 00:53:06,199 --> 00:53:10,760 entirely telling the truth as he understands it. You know that there are people 528 00:53:12,079 --> 00:53:15,840 in the intelligence community who have told him these things, you know, people 529 00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:21,800 who have told him that they work on these programs that he is talking about. 530 00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,800 And yet it doesn't necessarily, in my mind, add up to the 531 00:53:27,480 --> 00:53:34,039 you know, two plus two plus two equals eight scenario of you know, 532 00:53:34,440 --> 00:53:39,000 the government has a secret hangar under Area fifty one packed with alien bodies. 533 00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:45,559 Okay, I'm going to say goodbye to kg R A Radio right now. 534 00:53:46,079 --> 00:53:52,559 We'll be back next week with David Scott from Spaced Out Radio and thank you. 535 00:53:52,599 --> 00:53:57,239 I want to continue on just a little bit because there's a couple of 536 00:53:57,239 --> 00:54:00,360 things I wanted to So we're going to go over time a little to hear 537 00:54:00,599 --> 00:54:02,519 a couple of things I want to ask. So, what do you think 538 00:54:02,639 --> 00:54:07,679 about when it comes to his claim of the pilots of a few of these 539 00:54:07,719 --> 00:54:14,960 things? You know, again exactly as you predicted that that feels to me 540 00:54:15,199 --> 00:54:24,039 like secondhand knowledge that we haven't yet seen evidence to back it up. I 541 00:54:24,039 --> 00:54:28,480 think that there's a lot of reasons to doubt that the government is capable of 542 00:54:28,599 --> 00:54:34,719 keeping a secret of that size and scale, and you know a lot of 543 00:54:34,760 --> 00:54:40,760 evidence. You know, as someone who has covered national security for twenty years, 544 00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:46,800 has written a lot about the US government's doomsday programs and nine to eleven 545 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:52,360 and Watergate and a lot of places where there's a lot of government conspiracy programs 546 00:54:52,519 --> 00:55:00,760 or conspiracy theories. You know, My challenge with government conspiracy theories ends being 547 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,920 that they presuppose a level of competence, planning, and forethought that is not 548 00:55:05,079 --> 00:55:09,599 on display in the rest of the work that the government does. You know, 549 00:55:09,719 --> 00:55:20,480 could the government keep knowledge of an alien recovery secret for a short period 550 00:55:20,519 --> 00:55:28,440 of time, probably, Could it keep the knowledge of an alien recovery for 551 00:55:29,199 --> 00:55:35,679 a long period of time, maybe with like a very very very small group 552 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:42,119 of people. But that's not how David Grush talks about this. He talks 553 00:55:42,159 --> 00:55:52,159 about it as a ninety year cover up stretching back to fascist Italy and World 554 00:55:52,199 --> 00:56:00,360 War Two that he says, in modern terms, has about five thousand people 555 00:56:00,559 --> 00:56:08,719 working on it. So, you know, extrapolate that out across the you 556 00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:15,519 know, eighty ninety years of a cover up, you know, maybe fifty 557 00:56:15,559 --> 00:56:20,440 thousand people, maybe seventy five thousand people have worked on it over the years 558 00:56:20,559 --> 00:56:28,159 or would have been cleared into it in one form or another. That just 559 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:36,840 doesn't seem possible for me in the context of the scale of the cover up 560 00:56:36,880 --> 00:56:39,880 that he's alleging. Based on what we know about how the government is able 561 00:56:39,880 --> 00:56:46,400 to keep secrets. Yeah, I mean there's there's a lot of people have 562 00:56:46,760 --> 00:56:52,719 talked in theories about that. How you know of just you know, to 563 00:56:52,840 --> 00:56:58,719 come compartmentalize things to the point where everyone knows pieces but not the whole, 564 00:56:58,840 --> 00:57:00,719 you know, that type of thing, to keep this, you know, 565 00:57:00,800 --> 00:57:06,800 to hide this the secrets. I love your Freudian slip. Was it a 566 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:12,760 government conspiracy programs? You said by accident and then changed it to theories that 567 00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:17,360 was that was pretty funny. But now I know you did some work on 568 00:57:17,639 --> 00:57:22,599 the nukes, and so you must have looked into the situation at Maelstrom in 569 00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:29,599 other places where is supposedly there was interference when it comes to UFOs, not 570 00:57:29,719 --> 00:57:31,960 just that there's been a number, I forget how many cases in total, 571 00:57:32,039 --> 00:57:37,000 but where there was you know, basically the UFO and then something happened with 572 00:57:37,039 --> 00:57:42,000 the the weapons systems or something like that. I just wondered if that's something 573 00:57:42,039 --> 00:57:47,559 you actually looked into. You know, I've looked into it in the context 574 00:57:47,559 --> 00:57:54,239 of looking into a lot of these other things. You know, Untangling and 575 00:57:54,320 --> 00:58:04,719 getting an understanding of past historical UFO sightings is incredibly hard, simply because it's 576 00:58:05,000 --> 00:58:10,119 you know, we don't have the data and records that we would want of 577 00:58:12,400 --> 00:58:20,239 most of these incidents, and trying to figure out what some of these things 578 00:58:20,280 --> 00:58:24,239 are, you know, ten, twenty, thirty, fifty years later, 579 00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:28,559 it is really challenging. And you know, the truth of the matter is 580 00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:34,599 most of these things will probably be forever unsolved at this point, right. 581 00:58:35,639 --> 00:58:37,840 I can't I can't disagree with that at all. I want to thank you 582 00:58:37,920 --> 00:58:44,159 so much and for your book will be linked down in the show notes and 583 00:58:44,239 --> 00:58:49,039 in the text below, the YouTube and Facebook, et cetera. The name 584 00:58:49,079 --> 00:58:52,039 of the book is UFO, The Inside Story of the US Government's Search for 585 00:58:52,119 --> 00:58:57,639 Alien Life here and out there. You've been a great guest. Thank you 586 00:58:57,679 --> 00:59:00,239 so much for all your insights. Thanks much a pleasure chatting with you. 587 00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:05,719 Is there just one more thing? Is there any further research you're going to 588 00:59:05,760 --> 00:59:07,880 do in this or you're just going to move on to other topics at this 589 00:59:07,920 --> 00:59:13,639 point. You know, I will continue to cover this, you know, 590 00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:21,239 more as a magazine writer, which is my my other life going forward, 591 00:59:22,400 --> 00:59:28,199 you know, because I think that there is something here and I, along 592 00:59:28,239 --> 00:59:30,599 with a lot of other people, will be curious to figure out what it 593 00:59:30,679 --> 00:59:34,320 is. Excellent, all right, and I don't know if we ever will 594 00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:37,559 in our lifetime, but you never know, all right, Thanks so much, 595 00:59:38,079 --> 00:59:43,199 Take care all right everyone, So we'll be back next week. We'll 596 00:59:43,239 --> 00:59:47,159 be live, and we'll have Dave Scott from spaced Out Radio. Thank you, 597 00:59:47,199 --> 01:00:01,119 and remember to keep your eyes to the sky.