WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.000 --> 00:00:04.759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05.320 --> 00:00:09.880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.400 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14.400 --> 00:00:18.800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18.839 --> 00:00:23.679 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin, Richard here. 6 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:29.199 As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences 7 00:00:29.239 --> 00:00:33.600 around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Copenhagen 8 00:00:33.880 --> 00:00:38.439 is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. The early bird discount for 9 00:00:38.600 --> 00:00:45.039 NDC Copenhagen ends June second. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. 10 00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:50.159 NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The early bird discount 11 00:00:50.159 --> 00:00:55.119 for ADC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to Dcporto dot com to register 12 00:00:55.479 --> 00:01:12.680 and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Oops, 13 00:01:12.719 --> 00:01:15.680 I did it again. It's dot and Rocks. This is Carl Franklin, 14 00:01:15.799 --> 00:01:22.359 and this is Richard Campbell, and again we're year Britney Spears. Is 15 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.719 that what you're doing now? You know, I'm so out of jokes it's 16 00:01:26.840 --> 00:01:34.239 not even funny. Please send your jokes somebody, please. Um. So 17 00:01:34.840 --> 00:01:40.480 we are continuing our pile up of recordings before the conference season starts. I 18 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.239 think this is the last one. I think this is the last one. 19 00:01:42.400 --> 00:01:47.159 Yeah. Next time we record will be at Techo Rama and Antwerp. Yeah. 20 00:01:47.159 --> 00:01:49.959 Wow, that's right. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking boy man. 21 00:01:49.000 --> 00:01:52.640 We really crushed it in the last week. We had some fun. Uh, 22 00:01:52.640 --> 00:01:55.040 it's been a while since we've gone. You know, this once a 23 00:01:55.079 --> 00:01:59.920 week thing is so easy for us. Yeah, ridiculous from going from the 24 00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:02.359 back in the times we did three times a week. Ye. But yeah, 25 00:02:02.400 --> 00:02:06.480 we sort of did that three times a week feeling schedule to get a 26 00:02:06.519 --> 00:02:09.120 few weeks ahead so we can go to conferences and be confident that we'll publish 27 00:02:09.159 --> 00:02:14.000 every week no matter what. Right, exactly. No, you won't see 28 00:02:14.000 --> 00:02:16.319 any reruns here on dot net rocks. We don't do that. That's not 29 00:02:16.400 --> 00:02:21.840 what we do. No, there's always stuff to talk about, including better 30 00:02:21.879 --> 00:02:31.599 no framework. So let's roll the crazy music, all right, man? 31 00:02:31.639 --> 00:02:35.479 What do you got? What? God mo, hippo? Than what you 32 00:02:35.560 --> 00:02:39.280 got all right. So this is an article that came out on the twelfth 33 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:44.280 of April on The Verge. You've been reading The Verge lately. I notice 34 00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:46.560 it's got some good stuff. You know, they report about stuff that you 35 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:50.759 don't hear anywhere else. That might mean it's bullcrap, but who knows. 36 00:02:51.560 --> 00:02:55.560 So this story is Microsoft is changing the print screen key to open its own 37 00:02:55.759 --> 00:03:00.360 snipping tool on Windows eleven. I think I like this, You do, 38 00:03:00.439 --> 00:03:02.199 yeah, and I'll tell you why because right now, when you hit print 39 00:03:02.240 --> 00:03:05.360 screen, you don't even know if you hit print screen. It's true, 40 00:03:05.560 --> 00:03:08.199 right, Like on many keyboards, the print screen button is bared behind like 41 00:03:08.199 --> 00:03:12.159 a function key or something else, right, so it's like, did it 42 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:14.479 hit the prince screen or not? You got to go check fire up, 43 00:03:14.479 --> 00:03:17.439 paint and check board. Yeah, as we all do. So the fact 44 00:03:17.439 --> 00:03:21.680 that now you'll know you hit it because immediately the snipping tool appears. I 45 00:03:21.759 --> 00:03:23.319 kind of like this, Well, there are other tools that do that, 46 00:03:23.479 --> 00:03:28.599 right, So if you have the what's the one from Camp Tajia tech smith, 47 00:03:29.199 --> 00:03:31.840 Right, there's a grabber or something like that that's everybody's been using for 48 00:03:32.000 --> 00:03:36.960 years, for years and years. So people have these tools that I like 49 00:03:37.080 --> 00:03:40.240 you, Richard, I got used to you know, opening paint, copying, 50 00:03:40.319 --> 00:03:44.680 cropping, all that stuff, and it's just my workflow. So right, 51 00:03:45.039 --> 00:03:46.800 you know, I'll give it a try. Well, it sounds like 52 00:03:46.840 --> 00:03:49.039 you can adjust the setting, so if you want to use something else, 53 00:03:49.159 --> 00:03:51.599 right, knock yourself out. Okay, you could just set it up so 54 00:03:51.680 --> 00:03:53.960 it goes to paint automatically, just opens paint. That's pretty cool. So 55 00:03:54.240 --> 00:03:59.719 it is the first time in decades that the print screen button functionality has changed 56 00:03:59.759 --> 00:04:03.319 and knows. So it's a momentous occasion, and I will give it a 57 00:04:03.319 --> 00:04:08.879 shot, you know, because change is fine. As long as I have 58 00:04:09.080 --> 00:04:12.159 a good workflow and I get used to it, that's great. No, 59 00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:18.279 no, change is good. You go first, You go first, all 60 00:04:18.360 --> 00:04:20.800 right? Man, who's talking to us today? Grabbed a comment off a 61 00:04:20.879 --> 00:04:25.600 show eighteen thirty eight, not that long ago, back in March of twenty 62 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:29.120 twenty three, when we talked to one Javier Nelson and Steve Sanderson. We're 63 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.879 talking about Blazer United, because you know, it's the all WASM show these 64 00:04:31.959 --> 00:04:34.879 days, isn't it. We're not talking AI, We're talking WASM. By 65 00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:38.800 the way, a preview just came out that has some of the Blazer United 66 00:04:38.839 --> 00:04:42.680 stuff in it, just a couple of days ago. Yeah, as usual. 67 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.040 Those guys are crazy smart and that's awesome cool stuff. So Bear, 68 00:04:46.199 --> 00:04:50.160 and that's the name Bear. Bear says, I love the work to Microsoft 69 00:04:50.160 --> 00:04:54.279 does on Blazer, and I truly believe that web assembly or something similar. 70 00:04:54.319 --> 00:04:57.600 I don't think there's anything similar will be the future. Well, I mean 71 00:04:57.720 --> 00:05:00.600 client development, for sure, there are other future there's a future involving mars. 72 00:05:00.639 --> 00:05:05.240 I don't think it needs webisely, it might, right, I hope 73 00:05:05.279 --> 00:05:11.160 it does. Actually, let's talk to Elon. I would really like to 74 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.079 hear a show about why Microsoft chooses technology like React in their products instead of 75 00:05:15.160 --> 00:05:19.800 Blazer. And his example that hecites is the new version of Teams, So 76 00:05:19.959 --> 00:05:26.639 Teams two point zero. They moved off of Electron and they're now using React, 77 00:05:26.680 --> 00:05:30.040 and Bear says, what are the reasoning behind such choices? Yeah, 78 00:05:30.120 --> 00:05:31.560 I'd love to hear your thoughts, Carl. Yeah, Well, my thought 79 00:05:31.639 --> 00:05:38.360 is they like to choose stuff that's done and used and established, and not 80 00:05:38.399 --> 00:05:42.279 that Blazer isn't done. But it's still, as you say, I'm moving 81 00:05:42.279 --> 00:05:46.639 target because of what's happening with Blazer United. They're still innovating, do you 82 00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:47.879 know what I mean? Yeah? No, I think I think you're you're 83 00:05:47.959 --> 00:05:51.680 right, yeah, yeah. More importantly, it's like you're only hearing about 84 00:05:51.680 --> 00:05:58.360 the move to react now when they're finished. How long have they been working 85 00:05:58.360 --> 00:06:02.000 on it? Two years? So what was Blazer like two years ago? 86 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:06.120 Right? And like getting to the other reality that we know very well, 87 00:06:06.120 --> 00:06:10.800 which is Microsoft is not one big company, right, it's many different groups, 88 00:06:10.800 --> 00:06:14.040 and the team's group gets to make their own choices, right, and 89 00:06:14.160 --> 00:06:19.399 they support open source, even open source made by Facebook. So yeah, 90 00:06:19.480 --> 00:06:23.120 I mean I think that choice was made a long time ago when there weren't 91 00:06:23.120 --> 00:06:26.600 alternative. It's a good choice and they made a good choice. And it 92 00:06:26.600 --> 00:06:30.480 doesn't mean that they don't change the stack for teams three point zero because because 93 00:06:30.680 --> 00:06:35.720 what's the alternative, Like they come out with something that uses what Blazer not 94 00:06:35.759 --> 00:06:41.360 even Blazer six, Right, it would have been earlier than that. Yeah. 95 00:06:41.399 --> 00:06:45.279 The love affair you have with Blazer right now is recent. Yeah, 96 00:06:45.959 --> 00:06:49.000 Yeah, we saw the potential long ago, but when you actually need to 97 00:06:49.120 --> 00:06:56.519 rebuild a product that's used by literally hundreds of millions of people, you have 98 00:06:56.560 --> 00:06:59.120 to have some pretty good confidence that that framework is going to do everything you 99 00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:01.600 needed to do. It isn't going to change and disrupt everything. I think 100 00:07:01.600 --> 00:07:04.759 that's the more important thing, right, I would react totally fair, So 101 00:07:04.759 --> 00:07:08.319 Bart, I hope that addresses your question. I don't know if there's a 102 00:07:08.360 --> 00:07:11.120 show in there or not, but I'm not saying I wouldn't do it either, 103 00:07:11.279 --> 00:07:14.240 although I might actually do it. Over on run as Radio, we're 104 00:07:14.319 --> 00:07:17.079 talk a fair bit more about teams in the M three sixty five context. 105 00:07:17.720 --> 00:07:24.920 Bart did end is his message with dot net rocks rocks and we think so 106 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:28.199 too. Yeah, we do. And a copy of ustic Code Buy is 107 00:07:28.199 --> 00:07:30.839 on its way to un If you'd like a copy of music Code by right 108 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.720 a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on Facebook. 109 00:07:33.800 --> 00:07:38.079 We publish every show there as well, and if I read your comment, 110 00:07:38.199 --> 00:07:41.120 we'll send you copy of music Code Buy. And you know, you can 111 00:07:41.120 --> 00:07:44.319 follow us on Twitter if you like. That's great. But the real cool 112 00:07:44.600 --> 00:07:48.639 people are over on mastadon, so follow us there. I'm at Carl Franklin 113 00:07:48.720 --> 00:07:53.720 at tech hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. 114 00:07:53.879 --> 00:07:59.399 Send us a two ruty two two and let's bring on an old friend of 115 00:07:59.439 --> 00:08:03.079 dot net X. We haven't talked to Jacob Wow since what twenty sixteen? 116 00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:07.959 I think, Yeah, So this is going to be all about peach pie 117 00:08:07.959 --> 00:08:11.319 on web assembly, and Jacob Mischik is a veteran dot net developer. He's 118 00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:15.560 going to tell you all about it. He's a co founder of io level, 119 00:08:15.959 --> 00:08:20.519 where he's working on the peach pie compiler platform, co founder of dev 120 00:08:20.639 --> 00:08:24.319 sense, where he's providing advanced PHP development tools for visual Studio and vs code. 121 00:08:24.759 --> 00:08:31.000 He's a sports enthusiast and PhD candidate in software engineering in the Charles University 122 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.639 in Prague. Welcome back, Hider, Hey, great, great to be 123 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:39.879 back. I was asking Jacob how how I pronounced his name and he gave 124 00:08:39.919 --> 00:08:41.559 me this pronunciation and I said, well, what does your mother call you? 125 00:08:41.600 --> 00:08:48.000 And he says son? So I almost did it. I love his 126 00:08:48.080 --> 00:08:52.279 son is a veteran dot neet developer. No never, Okay, remind us 127 00:08:52.279 --> 00:08:56.919 what peach pie is, all right. So peach pie is a compiler of 128 00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:03.120 PHP language into the dot neet assembly. So it's actually the same compiler as 129 00:09:03.120 --> 00:09:11.720 a C sharp compiler. It translates the language into into this managed bytecode MSIL 130 00:09:13.559 --> 00:09:20.840 but it's not just a compiler. It's also the whole supporting Grundtime library and 131 00:09:20.080 --> 00:09:26.320 all the PHP extensions reimplemented into the c sharp language. So it's really the 132 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:35.240 complete PHP language platform, including support for visuals to do image studio code for 133 00:09:35.480 --> 00:09:39.320 dot Net. So it's completely managed. It is surprising to you as it 134 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.799 is to me, that there isn't PHP support in Visual Studio and in dot 135 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:48.679 Net just in the box. Actually there is like small support and visuals to 136 00:09:48.720 --> 00:09:52.639 do like like text or syntax, highlighting, syntax, colorization. Actually I 137 00:09:52.679 --> 00:09:58.919 have a second product which fully integrates the native PHP Intevidual Studio because it's it's 138 00:10:00.159 --> 00:10:03.000 not there yet, okay, And there's real a lot of people working in 139 00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:09.240 Visual Studio and they just need to work with PHP as well. So right, 140 00:10:09.440 --> 00:10:11.360 yeah, so that's it, and we want something a little bit better 141 00:10:11.399 --> 00:10:16.000 than just a text editor. We want we want to compile right to dot 142 00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:18.799 Net. We have to live in the studio, right, we have all 143 00:10:18.840 --> 00:10:20.919 our tools at a disposal. Yeah, wow, that's very cool. So 144 00:10:22.000 --> 00:10:28.080 the story now is web assembly support. Yeah? Right? Uh so, 145 00:10:28.080 --> 00:10:33.840 so we did it like a year ago and then just we didn't to care 146 00:10:33.879 --> 00:10:39.360 about it. But once you once you once I say your email, I 147 00:10:39.480 --> 00:10:45.039 was surprised, as you'll remember. Actually it's pretty cool because having a compiler 148 00:10:45.320 --> 00:10:50.960 of some language into dot net is giving you great opportunities because once you have 149 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:56.200 a language compile to dot net, you can do anything without actually doing anything, 150 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.799 because everything is just managed by Microsoft and all the great people working on 151 00:11:01.840 --> 00:11:05.320 the project. So right, once you get to I L you're you're smooth 152 00:11:05.360 --> 00:11:09.200 sailing. Yeah, but you have debugging, you have like performance profiling, 153 00:11:09.720 --> 00:11:16.200 and you have webossimbly as well. So we just we just actually tried it. 154 00:11:16.600 --> 00:11:22.960 We compiled PHP into msile and we run it on webostibli, which is 155 00:11:22.960 --> 00:11:26.720 actually like monoun time, right, it's actually mondoun time hooked into your browser 156 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:35.159 like interpreting your msile code, and it magically works with compiled PHP as well. 157 00:11:35.159 --> 00:11:39.960 It didn't even notice it's it's not C sharp, right. So one 158 00:11:39.000 --> 00:11:43.799 big use case that comes to mind is you have a Blazer application and then 159 00:11:43.840 --> 00:11:48.279 there's some you know, maybe some I don't know, scientific or financial or 160 00:11:48.320 --> 00:11:54.159 other kind of academic routines in PHP that you want to include, and rather 161 00:11:54.679 --> 00:11:58.679 try to convert the source code from PHP two C sharp and get it running 162 00:11:58.679 --> 00:12:03.000 that way, you can just turn it into an assembly and it's work. 163 00:12:03.279 --> 00:12:09.320 You can create its own an assembly class library with it and just add it 164 00:12:09.320 --> 00:12:11.399 to your right project. Right, you can. You can have it all 165 00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:16.480 in the same directory, your PHP everything. It can have few project files, 166 00:12:16.519 --> 00:12:20.279 one project file for HR, one project file for PHP. It gets 167 00:12:20.320 --> 00:12:28.480 linked together, and you can even like communicate between HP, Php, JavaScript, 168 00:12:28.039 --> 00:12:35.279 everything together. Everything gets like native marshaled into into dot net, so 169 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.399 so nobody knows what's the other language. Actually, you can now call JavaScript 170 00:12:39.519 --> 00:12:43.600 right from PHB and vice versa, and really everything together. We can even 171 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:50.759 have a component in your Blazer website, in your Blazer page which is in 172 00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:54.600 PHB and the rest of the page is in C sharp. So okay, 173 00:12:54.679 --> 00:13:01.799 So so you've got a page or a component and you might have inline uh 174 00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:05.879 you know, mark up control statements at if and all that stuff which is 175 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:11.440 C sharp or before each or whatever. But then you call in a co 176 00:13:11.559 --> 00:13:16.279 behind file, right, your co behind file can be in PHP rather than 177 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:20.120 c sharp, right, you can. You can have either cod behind file 178 00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:24.919 in PHP or like PHP. Developers are web designers as well. They like 179 00:13:26.000 --> 00:13:28.759 half of the half of the projects, half the PhD projects are front ends 180 00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:35.080 sure, so they have a lot of front end controllers in PHB like PHP, 181 00:13:35.200 --> 00:13:41.000 slash slash HTML, so you can you can even have a part of 182 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:48.679 your Blazer page as a PHB rendered with PHP, rendered with PHP rather than 183 00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:54.480 the Blazer component model, rather than YEP. Because because you can create like 184 00:13:54.919 --> 00:14:01.039 small five flying code which represents a component in Blazer t sharp and incited control. 185 00:14:01.120 --> 00:14:07.240 You can render your PHP using our peachpi API. Like we can put 186 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:11.519 it all together and in the end you don't even know what language you are 187 00:14:11.559 --> 00:14:16.840 actually using. Now I'm baffled because phpgim was like HP dot net web forms, 188 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.159 like it was a server side technology that's spat out HTML and then you 189 00:14:22.279 --> 00:14:26.840 posted back to the to the server to execute more PHP to render something else. 190 00:14:26.919 --> 00:14:31.279 Like all those metaphors involve a trip to the server, like what happens 191 00:14:31.279 --> 00:14:35.399 when you're living in a client. There's all the differences actually because like when 192 00:14:35.399 --> 00:14:41.000 you're working with PHPU are you expect the server? Yeah, and the filesystem 193 00:14:41.039 --> 00:14:48.480 and database and everything. So actually we don't we don't have to care about 194 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.240 it because there is this dot and standard library and all the phpcause all the 195 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:58.000 PHP APIs are translated to something dot Net in the end. So wow, 196 00:14:58.159 --> 00:15:05.039 if it throws any exceptions like not supported exception, it just does. We 197 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:07.759 can't we can't do anything about this web world. So which is going to 198 00:15:07.879 --> 00:15:11.399 keep running? Right? It just keeps wrong? Resumed next. Yeah, 199 00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:13.440 but you can. You can implement almost anything. So if you if you 200 00:15:13.519 --> 00:15:18.799 miss a feature like filesystem or anything, it can just just creates a file 201 00:15:18.840 --> 00:15:22.200 system provider and make happy noises. It makes happy noises. Yeah, you 202 00:15:22.279 --> 00:15:26.559 can. You can have some virtual file system behind and it will work. 203 00:15:26.759 --> 00:15:30.399 Right. I mean, now you're talking about PHP as SPA. That's essentially 204 00:15:30.480 --> 00:15:33.960 what it is, a single plage application as a single plage application, right 205 00:15:33.039 --> 00:15:37.799 that all of it will be executing in the browser and then possibly calling what 206 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:41.399 it thinks are back end components, but are actually just components in dot Net 207 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:46.399 that are making the remote called or fetch data. It's PHP as SPA. 208 00:15:46.679 --> 00:15:50.000 That's right. We should we should call it. We should call it allid 209 00:15:50.039 --> 00:15:54.200 it, we should call it. Yeah. Yeah, because when you hear 210 00:15:54.279 --> 00:15:58.559 peach pie, I'm thinking raspberry pie, which is you know, it's still 211 00:15:58.559 --> 00:16:03.320 a fruit in front of the word I so what pitch? Yeah, I 212 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.679 get it now. Yeah, I think we were looking for a fruit actually 213 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.879 because everything right that time was through it so well. In peach Pie has 214 00:16:11.960 --> 00:16:15.399 PHP in it, Like I get it. I do equate it that way. 215 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:18.399 I don't know that you can give up on that brand just yeah, 216 00:16:18.399 --> 00:16:23.759 but this peach Pie spot just amuses me, right, or because that's effectively 217 00:16:23.799 --> 00:16:27.320 what you're doing, even though it's not necessarily the same set of metaphors. 218 00:16:27.399 --> 00:16:32.799 It's like, now this would work. It's just weird. It makes sense. 219 00:16:33.039 --> 00:16:37.159 I will use it somewhere because actually, since we have it all managed 220 00:16:37.200 --> 00:16:40.639 and we can like play around and we have our own run time, we 221 00:16:40.679 --> 00:16:47.159 can do like stuff like for example, PHPs lifts within its request. Once 222 00:16:47.159 --> 00:16:51.799 the request ends, everything you did in your PHP code, all the memory 223 00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:56.240 or the arriables, everything just dies. Right. But with peach Pie, 224 00:16:56.320 --> 00:17:02.519 we actually don't have this single pro like multiple process approach. We have multiple 225 00:17:02.799 --> 00:17:08.440 multi threaded approach, so other requests are threads and we can keep things living 226 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:14.519 in the process. So for example, with the web assembly, we can 227 00:17:14.640 --> 00:17:21.480 like keep the context of the application living across more requests, so you can 228 00:17:21.559 --> 00:17:27.720 gain a great performance booths because like eighty percent of for example, eighty percent 229 00:17:27.799 --> 00:17:34.400 of empty Larva page is just initializing stuff and loading classes and declarations and everything, 230 00:17:34.440 --> 00:17:37.960 and we can do it just once and keep it in memories. So 231 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:45.039 there's a great possibilities, like we could do it if someone would care. 232 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:51.400 You know what's interesting about that is that UM web assembly isn't really fully getting 233 00:17:51.680 --> 00:17:56.599 multi threaded support the plays or web assembly until that and at eight. But 234 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.759 there's there's like a little preview. Now you can take a look at it. 235 00:18:00.799 --> 00:18:07.480 But but you're but web assembly obviously can be multi threaded, so you're 236 00:18:07.480 --> 00:18:11.839 taking advantage of that even before Blazer does. Yeah, there's a lot of 237 00:18:12.880 --> 00:18:18.599 things related. First, it's not multi threaded, but it's a sink, 238 00:18:18.799 --> 00:18:23.480 so okay, you can. You can run small tasks in a row. 239 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:29.960 But PAHP is not a sink. So so which when you say it's not 240 00:18:30.079 --> 00:18:34.519 multi threaded, do you mean peach Pie web assembly or Blazer like web assembly 241 00:18:34.880 --> 00:18:41.559 is uh as I remember as I remember when I was using it, it's 242 00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:48.039 everything the JavaScript was not multi threaded because it's not ready for it yet. 243 00:18:48.319 --> 00:18:52.480 You don't have any any critic sections, any monitors, any locks, So 244 00:18:52.519 --> 00:18:56.440 I think it's purely a sin a sink, so you can, okay, 245 00:18:56.559 --> 00:19:02.160 you can put your small tasks into the task schedule awaited them and it will 246 00:19:02.200 --> 00:19:10.359 get executed somewhere. Peachbot is multi tredit, but since we have to behave 247 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:15.759 like PHP, we we just behave like we are not multi tredit. So 248 00:19:15.799 --> 00:19:21.319 I'm reading from web Dot dev Slash, web Assembly Dash threads and it says 249 00:19:22.640 --> 00:19:26.200 a web assembly threads support is one of the most important performance additions to web 250 00:19:26.200 --> 00:19:30.039 assembly, and this is from July twenty twenty one. It allows you to 251 00:19:30.039 --> 00:19:33.160 either run parts of your code in parallel or on separate cores, or on 252 00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:38.519 the same code over independent parts of the input data, scaling it to as 253 00:19:38.559 --> 00:19:44.799 many cores as the user has, and significantly reducing all overall execution time. 254 00:19:45.160 --> 00:19:48.920 So awesome. I know there is a like opened issue on on Blazer that 255 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:53.960 Microsoft should do it. It's r and there's a framework you know or how's 256 00:19:53.960 --> 00:20:00.440 it called UNO which is multi tredit. Yeah, but PHP is not so 257 00:20:00.240 --> 00:20:06.039 well. It looks like web assembly has multi threading through this worker's thing from 258 00:20:06.119 --> 00:20:11.279 JavaScript that web assembly does have multi threading, but a question is can those 259 00:20:11.319 --> 00:20:15.920 workers work like threads? Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm going to post 260 00:20:15.960 --> 00:20:19.519 this link so Richard can add it. I was actually recently doing a like 261 00:20:21.480 --> 00:20:27.480 extension for wes code running in browser, and I took our extension written in 262 00:20:27.519 --> 00:20:33.279 c sharp in dot net and we just compiled it to web assembly and running 263 00:20:33.319 --> 00:20:37.440 it in wes code in browser. Nice, just like that. So we 264 00:20:37.519 --> 00:20:42.279 had a problem with threading because we just couldn't couldn't start threads. All the 265 00:20:42.319 --> 00:20:49.400 threads were just queuing after each other and we may have to use the workers 266 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:55.200 worker constructor to create them. Yeah, but they couldn't talk to each other 267 00:20:55.319 --> 00:20:57.720 very well, so we couldn't share a memory. We had to we had 268 00:20:57.759 --> 00:21:03.599 to use some kind of Okay, now I'm reading that there's a shared array 269 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:07.960 buffer, Yeah, something like that. It's not the threading as we are 270 00:21:07.119 --> 00:21:14.119 used to put a convenient way right anyways. Anyways, Well, that's good 271 00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.880 to know that you're thinking about it and that you know eventually it'll work itself 272 00:21:17.920 --> 00:21:25.079 out. Yeah, definitely, one day. It would great. It would 273 00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:30.039 be great for PHP because they're like trying to get the benefit of threats, 274 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:34.240 but it's it's not the fullidare yet. Well, yeah, because that whole 275 00:21:34.480 --> 00:21:41.240 worker role thing in the browser has always been a bit wonky. I don't 276 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.079 I don't know if it's stayed back now because websembly is pressed against it. 277 00:21:44.119 --> 00:21:47.599 I hope it is. But right, you used to you used to be 278 00:21:47.640 --> 00:21:49.559 able. We always will proposed this idea of you're gonna be able to call 279 00:21:49.640 --> 00:21:53.880 this worker helper and it's going to be able to run this thing independently, 280 00:21:53.960 --> 00:21:57.640 but it never seemed to actually work like that. Yeah, but I think 281 00:21:57.640 --> 00:22:00.680 that's different when you look at the webs level and you're literally running inside the 282 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.440 context where JavaScript would normally run and say, hey, I just want to 283 00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:08.240 be able to do these things because I don't think a PHP is multi threaded 284 00:22:08.279 --> 00:22:11.880 either, right, Like normally you're going back to a server with a short 285 00:22:11.960 --> 00:22:17.200 lived instance that executes and dies and so you know, yeah, maybe using 286 00:22:17.279 --> 00:22:19.640 multiple threads, but they've got not do with each other. Right, There 287 00:22:19.720 --> 00:22:26.000 is no like native support for threads. There's an extension for doing things on 288 00:22:26.039 --> 00:22:30.720 a bag round tread, but again it's not like we are used to from 289 00:22:30.920 --> 00:22:34.200 HR. But you can share of variables and do stuff like because we're living 290 00:22:34.200 --> 00:22:37.480 in webland where all of this stuff is on the server and short lived, 291 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:42.000 Like, why would you spend the energy setting up a bunch of threads when 292 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.559 you're going to tear them down in a few seconds anyway. Ye are there 293 00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:51.759 any other implementations of PHP as a client only? Uh? System? Actually, 294 00:22:51.759 --> 00:22:59.119 there is a native PHP running as a web assembly, so I think 295 00:22:59.119 --> 00:23:07.400 they even got through running Droople framework people in browser with with squill light uh, 296 00:23:07.839 --> 00:23:11.920 and it seems to work. I haven't noticed like anyone using it actually, 297 00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:17.759 but it's there. The only downside is it's pretty large. You have 298 00:23:17.799 --> 00:23:22.200 to download like ten twenty makeabytes of data. You're talking about Droople though, 299 00:23:22.599 --> 00:23:26.160 that's big duple and the PHP run time itself, because yeah, you have 300 00:23:26.240 --> 00:23:30.119 to download the whole PHP run time. Okay, As a web assembly, 301 00:23:30.319 --> 00:23:34.759 you're just boumbing around GitHub. I think I've found three web assembly run times 302 00:23:34.759 --> 00:23:40.400 for PHP, so people are experimenting, right. Two of them are dead 303 00:23:40.480 --> 00:23:45.880 already. There's just one one alive when it's driving. And obviously the performances 304 00:23:47.000 --> 00:23:51.359 of your code is going to increase when it's running in web assembly versus when 305 00:23:51.400 --> 00:23:56.200 it's on the server. It's not a system like Blazer where right, where 306 00:23:56.200 --> 00:24:02.160 there's like a yeah, a graph for every user on the server. And 307 00:24:02.960 --> 00:24:06.599 you know, it's not like Blazer's server. So I guess when you take 308 00:24:06.680 --> 00:24:10.880 code that you've run on the server and then now move it to the client. 309 00:24:11.799 --> 00:24:15.640 There's going to be a performance increase in many many situations, isn't there. 310 00:24:15.839 --> 00:24:19.039 Oh yeah, there will be an increase because you have the whole PC 311 00:24:19.160 --> 00:24:25.880 dedicated to your request, right, so the response will be immediate. You 312 00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:27.119 don't have to wait for a network, you don't have to wait for the 313 00:24:27.160 --> 00:24:32.319 server, and the server doesn't have to process like thousands of users at many 314 00:24:32.359 --> 00:24:37.960 time. But at the same time, there might be a performance decrease because 315 00:24:38.319 --> 00:24:45.039 it's still running on a mono run time and it's actually not compiled to the 316 00:24:45.079 --> 00:24:48.160 machine code, right, it's interpreted right as far as I know, because 317 00:24:48.279 --> 00:24:53.200 like, yeah, we are trying to make it a running, compiled native 318 00:24:53.240 --> 00:24:57.319 ahead of time, which will be a thin one right. Sure, Yeah, 319 00:24:57.359 --> 00:25:03.200 Now let's star you're bringing this up um. Web assembly requires that it 320 00:25:03.279 --> 00:25:07.480 downloads well until Blazer United, which will be great. It requires that it 321 00:25:07.519 --> 00:25:12.359 downloads all the DLLs in web and assemblies that it needs before it can run. 322 00:25:14.079 --> 00:25:18.480 And so what is peach pie on web assembly? How big is that 323 00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:26.279 download? Yeah? We actually we actually designed it with this in mind because 324 00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:33.200 we wanted to take advantage of assembly trimming and make the resulting published assemblies as 325 00:25:33.240 --> 00:25:38.319 small as possible. So we are actually doing a small trick during the compilation, 326 00:25:38.920 --> 00:25:47.920 and we are creating a table of used classes and methods so the trimming 327 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:55.039 knows the methods are used and it won't just cut them off otherwise peach piece 328 00:25:55.079 --> 00:25:59.039 of dynamic language and you never know what metal to what function will be called. 329 00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:07.039 So we're just annotating and using this trick to avoid trimming stuff that will 330 00:26:07.079 --> 00:26:12.960 be used, it will be called, and the result you can get everything 331 00:26:14.359 --> 00:26:18.440 trimmed and published to like four to six megabytes. Wow. And that's on 332 00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:23.240 top of the basic web assemblies including dot net, including dot neet run time, 333 00:26:23.279 --> 00:26:27.359 oh including Oh okay, so that's about That's about what it is anyway, 334 00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:30.039 isn't it It's like two two and a half megabytes right now? Some 335 00:26:30.400 --> 00:26:34.440 Yeah, if it's a small PHB app just just a few classes and everything, 336 00:26:34.480 --> 00:26:38.079 it's just nothing. Yeah, okay, so nothing to worry about if 337 00:26:38.079 --> 00:26:45.640 you have pdbs embedded so you can debugging everything, which is awesome because you're 338 00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.079 like debugging PHB and the Whisle studio and we just did it. Doesn't even 339 00:26:49.079 --> 00:26:55.640 know it's PHP. I like it. It's like ten megabytes, which is 340 00:26:56.319 --> 00:27:00.240 which is all right? M So what happens in the world of plays are 341 00:27:00.279 --> 00:27:06.119 United? When you know there you can start off with a Blazer server application 342 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:10.559 and then it will download all the assemblies in the background. Is there any 343 00:27:10.559 --> 00:27:14.160 way that peach Pie can sort of ride that bandwagon? I think I'm a 344 00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:18.720 little bit like, I don't know what's Blazer United yet. Oh okay, 345 00:27:18.799 --> 00:27:22.000 a little bit. We're gonna have to talk to you later kind about this 346 00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:27.720 because there I think there's an opportunity. I don't know though, I don't 347 00:27:27.759 --> 00:27:33.279 know. I mean, but if you're basically talking about dot net assemblies just 348 00:27:33.599 --> 00:27:36.160 going from the server to the client, you might be able to hit your 349 00:27:36.200 --> 00:27:38.680 ride on that. So essentially what it means is if you're familiar with Blazer 350 00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:45.559 Server in Blazer Web assembly in the two different models, Blazer server uses signal 351 00:27:45.759 --> 00:27:51.119 R as a circuit in the background too, and it keeps a graph of 352 00:27:51.240 --> 00:27:56.119 the dom for each user in memory. And when there's some code change, 353 00:27:56.240 --> 00:28:00.079 some UI code change, or whatever you want to call some code, it 354 00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:06.519 happens dynamically through signal R and on the server the code is executed and then 355 00:28:06.559 --> 00:28:08.839 it looks at a diff of you know, the dom and what has changed, 356 00:28:08.880 --> 00:28:15.279 and it sends back these really small binary messages through JavaScript that updates the 357 00:28:15.759 --> 00:28:21.519 browser. So so it's fast, right, that's how it was before, 358 00:28:21.599 --> 00:28:26.079 right I remember, Yeah, I remember Blazer is putting IDs in generally it 359 00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:32.319 remembers the dump tree with little i ds. It just updates the element. 360 00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:36.559 It's like magic the changes. Yeah, and so it's so what happens now 361 00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:40.799 is Blazer web assembly. Of course, you have to wait for everything to 362 00:28:40.799 --> 00:28:45.440 be downloaded. So they have this automode in Blazer United that you start on 363 00:28:45.519 --> 00:28:49.079 the server and in the background all the web assembly DLLs get downloaded and when 364 00:28:49.119 --> 00:28:52.519 they come to life, boom, you're running on the client. And that's 365 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.079 really cool. So and I think that's going to be the future of Blazer. 366 00:28:56.119 --> 00:28:59.720 It's just going to be called Blazer. There won't be a I mean 367 00:29:00.079 --> 00:29:03.200 is United of course. But all right, yeah, so wouldn't be cool 368 00:29:03.240 --> 00:29:07.880 if you guys could sort of hit your ride in that mechanism. So you 369 00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:11.359 should be talking to Steve Sanderson, all right. I think like a year 370 00:29:11.359 --> 00:29:17.920 ago, we've been working with a student from our university, Thomas Thomas, 371 00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:22.640 which Thomas was it. It was that Thomas who suck another another guy and 372 00:29:22.680 --> 00:29:32.880 he was actually building an SDK for Blazer and PHP and he created a Blazer 373 00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:37.200 control which behaves like an element in the in this domtree, but it renders 374 00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.680 PHP inside it, and it could do this kind of stuff like it remembers 375 00:29:41.880 --> 00:29:47.599 what was changed and it could send just the differences. Yeah. I think 376 00:29:48.000 --> 00:29:52.920 this is the peas right that you sent. That's the one. That's the 377 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.880 one. We still need to update it to the latest dot net but it's 378 00:29:56.880 --> 00:30:00.480 in dot neet five right now. Wow. But there's a part time that 379 00:30:00.960 --> 00:30:03.400 we are doing this kind of stuff. Fantastic. This component is really I 380 00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:08.960 think it can change just just the stuff that was that was changed, and 381 00:30:10.000 --> 00:30:14.799 you can. We can. We even have an API for for PHP code 382 00:30:14.799 --> 00:30:21.000 itself, so developers can just changed only the stuff they want to, like 383 00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:23.759 in the reactor or other frameworks. And gentlemen, I need to interrupt for 384 00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:29.720 one moment for this very important message, and we're back. It's done that 385 00:30:29.839 --> 00:30:32.119 rock. So I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. Hey, Hey, 386 00:30:32.279 --> 00:30:36.119 talking to our friend Jacob a bit about PHP and web assembly and I was 387 00:30:36.160 --> 00:30:41.200 just thinking, Wow, we've come a long way. Since Philanger. They 388 00:30:41.240 --> 00:30:45.559 we talked to Thomas PETRISEC back in like two thousand and seven. Yeah, 389 00:30:45.640 --> 00:30:51.480 yeah, two thousand and seven, early those early days. And but of 390 00:30:51.519 --> 00:30:56.400 course that project now I think in fully an archive, it's become peach Pie, 391 00:30:56.480 --> 00:30:59.720 like it has a direct lineage. Yeah exactly. Uh, like I 392 00:30:59.799 --> 00:31:07.799 was working on Phalinger like sixteen years ago with Thomas. Thomas did a great 393 00:31:07.799 --> 00:31:15.279 stuff with silver Ete and implementing like a lot of a lot of code that 394 00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.920 that that amount, that amount of work. Yeah, and uh, it's 395 00:31:19.960 --> 00:31:27.279 actually pitch Pie is the incarnation of Phalinger. Because we needed a new new 396 00:31:27.319 --> 00:31:33.119 platform. We needed to use rosalind compile platform, we needed new dot Net. 397 00:31:33.799 --> 00:31:41.039 We needed to avoid the old system reflection emit APIs because that's really slow. 398 00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:47.640 And thanks to this change, we cut the compile time from like on 399 00:31:47.920 --> 00:31:53.200 large projects from two minutes to four seconds. So Roslin the new dot net, 400 00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.160 new dotnet and Roslyn actually because we can just emit code in parallel and 401 00:32:00.720 --> 00:32:07.200 without calling into the native system native system stuff. So it was a great 402 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:14.160 change. And I feel like with about Somebody is also the reincarnation of silver 403 00:32:14.240 --> 00:32:19.759 Light. And this in functionality, yes, it has the possibility at least. 404 00:32:20.480 --> 00:32:23.920 Yeah, you don't get Zammal for free, right like, thank God, 405 00:32:23.960 --> 00:32:32.799 though thank God should die. Yeah, I you know, Billy, 406 00:32:32.880 --> 00:32:37.240 I love Billy, Billy love Samal. It doesn't mean I have to love 407 00:32:37.279 --> 00:32:42.119 sam And not a lot of m VVM in your life either, right Like, 408 00:32:42.119 --> 00:32:44.000 But I think that's what I think about. What I think abouts silver 409 00:32:44.079 --> 00:32:47.319 Light is well, yeah, VM in Zammal with C sharp. Yeah, 410 00:32:47.359 --> 00:32:52.759 MVM is kind of required when you use Samal and when you use Blazer. 411 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.599 The consensus is it isn't really all that important. There are other ways, 412 00:32:57.880 --> 00:33:00.200 yeah, yeah, and you can you can do the same stuff like Thomas 413 00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:06.519 thirteen fourteen years ago, he did a game in silver Light using PHP this 414 00:33:06.680 --> 00:33:13.119 helicopter. He was shooting stones or something, and we actually achieved to make 415 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:16.640 a game intimbly using PHP and Blazer as well. So you can do that. 416 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:21.400 Actually, wow, very cool. And you're calling into the canvas for 417 00:33:21.480 --> 00:33:24.759 that. We are not rendering it. We are actually manipulating with HTM elements 418 00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:30.160 amazing PHP, so you can crazy. That's the other thing you can. 419 00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:37.200 You can call JavaScript right from your PHP comer. PHP became a client cyclanguage, 420 00:33:37.640 --> 00:33:42.960 yeah, which I'm still just wrestling with Yeah, it's an interesting way 421 00:33:42.960 --> 00:33:45.799 to think. You know, I think I cut you off or change the 422 00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:51.960 subject when you just when you were mentioning the AOT compilation ahead of time compilation 423 00:33:52.720 --> 00:33:57.599 feature of web assembly and Blazer in particular, what were you going to say 424 00:33:57.599 --> 00:34:02.400 about that in the context of PHP. Yeah, it's it's a nightmare. 425 00:34:06.480 --> 00:34:10.679 No, because because in theory, in theory, you cannot we cannot use 426 00:34:10.719 --> 00:34:17.199 it because PHP is a dynamic language and you never know what API you will 427 00:34:17.239 --> 00:34:22.480 need to use. You never know what functions will be called. So we 428 00:34:22.559 --> 00:34:25.679 have this switch in a compiler where we can tell, Okay, if you 429 00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:30.719 are really sure our compiler discovered all the functions that will be called, just 430 00:34:30.840 --> 00:34:38.119 go ahead. But in most cases I would it's it's it's just just test 431 00:34:38.159 --> 00:34:43.920 it. Just do a lot of tests otherwise. Otherwise, of course, 432 00:34:43.920 --> 00:34:45.840 in dynamic language you just never you never know, you never know. We 433 00:34:46.159 --> 00:34:52.599 have we have some compiler options to exclude, to exclude references to libraries like 434 00:34:53.599 --> 00:35:00.079 my ESQUL, microscl bosgress and so on, so you can manually exclude references 435 00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:07.000 to those to those assemblies, which helps server side things. Yeah, scripting, 436 00:35:07.039 --> 00:35:12.440 for example, we have the whole dynamic compilation, so so you can 437 00:35:12.760 --> 00:35:17.559 do evil. It is it pronounced evil like evil? I don't know. 438 00:35:19.280 --> 00:35:24.760 Ye. For us it's evil, we call it evil. So you can 439 00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:29.800 turn it off to to make it smaller, because without evil, you don't 440 00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:34.800 need the whole compiler, right, sure, so it makes it smaller, 441 00:35:35.280 --> 00:35:38.840 and so and so on. So if you are sure you are statically linking 442 00:35:39.000 --> 00:35:44.719 all the stuff you need, you can you can turn the native head of 443 00:35:44.760 --> 00:35:49.519 time compilation on it and then it works. We have some issues by people 444 00:35:49.519 --> 00:35:53.559 who tried it. Actually I wasn't brave enough to try it with phpyet. 445 00:35:53.920 --> 00:36:00.119 Okay, I'm just reading those issues and answering things like thank you for the 446 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:07.320 issue. I hope you know what you are doing? Um, yeah, 447 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:10.320 that should be a great error message, right, or at least a warning. 448 00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:15.039 I hope you know what you're doing. It's your foot, Yeah, 449 00:36:14.079 --> 00:36:19.000 yeah, it should be. It should be a warning message, although it's 450 00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:22.480 almost implied with every of the one of those warnings. Yeah. We we 451 00:36:22.480 --> 00:36:28.639 have a similar warning in there for for finalizers right in PHP, because in 452 00:36:28.679 --> 00:36:35.079 PHP you have this deterministic garbage collection, but in dotnet it's not deterministic. 453 00:36:35.159 --> 00:36:38.519 You never know when it happens, and it happens on another threat. But 454 00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:44.440 in PHP it's always happening deterministically, like at the end of the function or 455 00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:47.599 somewhere. You can expect it because there is a reference counting implemented. So 456 00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.119 if anyone has a finalizer in their PHP code, we just pop up a 457 00:36:52.199 --> 00:36:58.719 warning during the compilation time you have a finalizer, it's it's not like it 458 00:36:58.840 --> 00:37:02.840 won't work, it just would work. Can you implement I disposable? You 459 00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:08.960 can implement it, but you have to call it explicitly. Sure, well, 460 00:37:09.000 --> 00:37:14.199 I mean that's that's the indication, right. Anytime I create an object, 461 00:37:14.280 --> 00:37:15.440 I look to see if it has a disposed method, and if it 462 00:37:15.480 --> 00:37:19.800 does, I call it. That's just something we've gotten used to. It's 463 00:37:19.840 --> 00:37:23.000 not net developers. That would be nice. Yeah, uh, it's it's 464 00:37:23.000 --> 00:37:27.480 not there in PHP. Okay, um, all right, I know what 465 00:37:27.519 --> 00:37:30.320 you're gonna say, Richard. Are you sure? Yeah? I think so, 466 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:34.159 go ahead, word press. Yeah, that's exactly where I was going. 467 00:37:35.719 --> 00:37:38.639 I mean, when you talk about PHP, it's one of the largest 468 00:37:38.639 --> 00:37:43.360 applications of the world. It's the most popular CMS in the world. It's 469 00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:47.960 bloody everywhere, and the PHP is the back end of it. But now 470 00:37:49.000 --> 00:37:52.360 you could be running it in the front end. This is not a good 471 00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.719 idea, but boy would be a fun thought experiment, Like what would that 472 00:37:55.800 --> 00:38:00.960 even look like? All right? So uh yeah, we have some discussion 473 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:07.519 with community about it. I think some people actually tried it. They ported 474 00:38:07.559 --> 00:38:13.679 it a lot of it already, which is the biggest business framework for PHP. 475 00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.400 Right, But WordPress is something like you just put it on the server 476 00:38:16.519 --> 00:38:21.440 and it works, yes, and or more a saently you buy it for 477 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.639 three bucks a month from a provider somewhere, right. You don't even need 478 00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:29.880 to install it anymore really, and you just you just download your plugins and 479 00:38:30.000 --> 00:38:34.599 themes from the dashboard. So right, it's totally different approach than than dot 480 00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:39.239 net. But in theory it works. We have it compiled in a normal 481 00:38:39.280 --> 00:38:45.400 way without the possembly and like twenty megabytes so compiled. It's not that I 482 00:38:45.440 --> 00:38:47.440 would thought you would be bigger than that. That's that's surprising. It's just 483 00:38:49.000 --> 00:38:54.880 it's a small project. Well, but it's very file system based, so 484 00:38:55.079 --> 00:39:00.000 now you have the whole problem of where do you put all the file Yeah? 485 00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:06.440 Uh, thankfully we have all the filesystem APIs we have re implemented in 486 00:39:06.519 --> 00:39:10.039 c sharp, but we can do whatever we want. So internally, internally 487 00:39:10.039 --> 00:39:16.440 we have this filesystem provider, and just in case for just in the context 488 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.960 of web assembly, we can just reimplement it to behave like something else. 489 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:28.559 Sure we uh, I'm sure web assembly has or embrowser you can. You 490 00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:34.320 can have storage embrowsers so you can upload your your files. Yeah you have. 491 00:39:34.559 --> 00:39:37.159 Yeah, it's a little little limited. I would also think like quick 492 00:39:37.239 --> 00:39:42.960 over SMB, which is sort of the most bare metal way to communicate over 493 00:39:43.000 --> 00:39:46.480 the Internet safely for files, would be pretty impressive, although if you still 494 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:52.519 get the latencies in web assembly. You have access to files within your local 495 00:39:53.239 --> 00:39:59.280 Webrew kind of thing, but it isn't anything that you can really really access 496 00:39:59.320 --> 00:40:05.440 in use. But you do have, of course local storage right in session 497 00:40:05.480 --> 00:40:09.000 storage. Local storage. You get five megabytes per per URL for whatever, 498 00:40:09.519 --> 00:40:13.400 and you could certainly use that. But it isn't like you can just reach 499 00:40:13.440 --> 00:40:16.840 out and open a file and the documents folder or that kind of or write 500 00:40:16.880 --> 00:40:20.760 a file in the system. Yeah, yeah, we could. We could 501 00:40:21.159 --> 00:40:24.719 bend the WordPress a little bit so it wouldn't be that excessive with the file 502 00:40:24.800 --> 00:40:30.280 system access. But let's be clear, WordPress is already bent right, Like, 503 00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:31.920 it's not that. It's not a stretch. People do crazy things that 504 00:40:32.000 --> 00:40:37.920 word pressed all the time. You can do anything. There are extension points 505 00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:42.440 everywhere in the code. You can really change everything. So so in this 506 00:40:42.519 --> 00:40:46.159 way, we could just disable some functionalities to make it smaller and lighter. 507 00:40:46.800 --> 00:40:52.239 We could make something like a virtual file system, so your files could be 508 00:40:52.280 --> 00:40:58.440 on some cloud provider. Maybe other files would be behaving like they are because 509 00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.760 WordPress is touching all the files all the time. It's it's just just calling 510 00:41:02.920 --> 00:41:09.039 file exists for for many things to just check it's there, right, So 511 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:14.280 we can just return like true true is there is there? Now? Don't 512 00:41:14.280 --> 00:41:19.400 bother me with that. Here's an even more ridiculous thought experiment. Um, 513 00:41:19.519 --> 00:41:24.119 last time I checked, Facebook still uses PHP. Could they be shipping some 514 00:41:24.159 --> 00:41:29.280 stuff down the web assembly? Woll would they? Does that even make sense? 515 00:41:29.960 --> 00:41:37.480 Client side Facebook even faster? That's what that will have? Like two 516 00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:43.760 gigabytes right, easy? Be massive. I think they moved to h h 517 00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:47.000 VM right, and no portion of the code is written in all the other 518 00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:52.719 languages. I think we spoke to to some guys from Facebook and they are 519 00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:58.960 using all kinds of languages. PHP is just a small portion of their of 520 00:41:59.000 --> 00:42:04.480 their codes that they which you expect just because you started in one places, 521 00:42:04.480 --> 00:42:07.400 I mean you change. You know, once upon a time Twitter was written 522 00:42:07.400 --> 00:42:12.480 in ruby. There are still pieces of ruby, right, and yeah, 523 00:42:12.480 --> 00:42:16.360 I think so, but but it's any off the rails. Saying Facebook is 524 00:42:16.400 --> 00:42:21.840 PHP is any more correct than saying Twitters and Ruby right, like the Yeah, 525 00:42:21.880 --> 00:42:24.960 that's where they started, but things have changed several lists Twitter would be 526 00:42:25.039 --> 00:42:30.400 yes, well I thought you said leaderless Twitter, but I wasn't going to 527 00:42:30.480 --> 00:42:35.320 say that. I like how Rich Campbell has come around to my way of 528 00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:43.119 thinking about the crazy person in charge of Twitter. Yeah, so at least 529 00:42:43.159 --> 00:42:46.119 at least it's fun. It is fun. Um. So on the list 530 00:42:46.159 --> 00:42:51.159 of gotcha's, are there any we we talked about sort of the threading and 531 00:42:51.199 --> 00:42:55.760 asynchronous stuff and some libraries that might not be ready for the browser because they 532 00:42:55.800 --> 00:43:01.199 access serviicide things. Is there anything else that is a gotcha that you're still 533 00:43:01.239 --> 00:43:08.840 battling with? Well, the database is a question because the database libraries are 534 00:43:08.840 --> 00:43:14.719 working in the browser, but you would have to you would have to call 535 00:43:14.760 --> 00:43:19.480 your database on the server, right, So it's a question about security and 536 00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:30.199 also performance because you frameworks like For example, WordPress are making tons of escot 537 00:43:30.280 --> 00:43:35.480 queries within the samele requests, so that would be slow, I guess. 538 00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:43.559 But you can bundle escal light sure. I think you can fit it into 539 00:43:43.599 --> 00:43:47.920 those few megabytes of storage, so nice. You could access indextb, which 540 00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:52.000 would be I think better than sq light. Esk light doesn't persist as it. 541 00:43:52.400 --> 00:43:57.559 I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it does, but I 542 00:43:57.559 --> 00:44:00.400 could. I could be wrong. Really. I think there's a just file 543 00:44:00.480 --> 00:44:02.679 and it can it can modify, but it would it wouldn't Pursis this too, 544 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:07.559 Yes, yeah, but it isn't gonna It isn't gonna stay like a 545 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:12.199 database stays, you know, probably not to know. You have to if 546 00:44:12.199 --> 00:44:15.639 you want you can use it like but then you have to sort of persist 547 00:44:15.679 --> 00:44:19.360 it with some other mechanism. Um. But an XTB would be good for 548 00:44:19.400 --> 00:44:22.039 a local database. But I think that you know, there's there's lots of 549 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:30.000 tech out there that's available in in C sharp and you know Blazer that already 550 00:44:30.000 --> 00:44:32.880 does this. The problem is solved. So if you essentially hook hook into 551 00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:37.039 those things, then you can call your APIs and you can call you know 552 00:44:37.119 --> 00:44:44.079 whatever using all the frameworks that are already there and Blazer, but that's if 553 00:44:44.119 --> 00:44:47.159 you have a Blazer app that's calling PHP. If you have a pure PHP 554 00:44:47.320 --> 00:44:53.239 app, maybe you can add the Blazer components to you know, do your 555 00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:59.760 data management for your API stuff. That sounds yeah, yeah, good luck 556 00:44:59.800 --> 00:45:06.960 with tell me good list. This project part of your PhD thesis, well 557 00:45:07.199 --> 00:45:10.079 partially really. I mean you are a PhD candidate, which I find fascinating 558 00:45:10.079 --> 00:45:15.480 because that means you're on the path to actually be a computer scientist. You're 559 00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:21.280 clearly enamored of language and different operating operating constructs there, So yeah, I 560 00:45:21.320 --> 00:45:28.119 think I started. I started my PhD in the context of the other work 561 00:45:28.159 --> 00:45:30.639 I'm doing, which is the language integration for a visual studio, where I'm 562 00:45:30.679 --> 00:45:37.039 doing a lot of like PHP control flow analysis and data analysis and all the 563 00:45:37.079 --> 00:45:44.320 other stuff. So partially as because the compiler is actually an analysis tool. 564 00:45:45.199 --> 00:45:50.760 It is. So I did a lot of a lot of papers and presentations 565 00:45:50.800 --> 00:45:59.280 about code analysis and performance and maybe like twenty percent of pitch pot is code 566 00:45:59.280 --> 00:46:05.159 analysis, so right, it is a part of PhD. I had some 567 00:46:05.199 --> 00:46:12.679 papers about Phialinger, and I was working with some other students on some academic 568 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:16.280 papers on peach Pie as well. So it is a part. Part of 569 00:46:16.280 --> 00:46:22.000 it is uh major part is my other work where I'm doing like code diagnostics 570 00:46:22.079 --> 00:46:28.599 for for visuals to do. That's connected. They talk about a PhD thesis 571 00:46:28.639 --> 00:46:34.239 as contributing to the art. So you mean you're helping our industry grow. 572 00:46:34.280 --> 00:46:40.760 It's thinking around compilers. That's not to make it too heavy. That's the 573 00:46:40.840 --> 00:46:45.239 gig, right, Yeah, so maybe I should finish it right. And 574 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:52.280 there's that too. I mean Neil's bores PhD thesis was the atomic model, 575 00:46:52.360 --> 00:46:57.840 the idea that protons and neutrons are in a nucleus surrounded by electrons. Like 576 00:46:58.400 --> 00:47:01.840 it's a lie we tell children and adults, but it was a useful lie. 577 00:47:01.920 --> 00:47:05.639 And that literally, you know, he contributed to the art, like 578 00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.159 I always think in those terms. I talked to some of the working out 579 00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:13.199 a PhD. It's like, this is your contribution to our body of knowledge. 580 00:47:13.280 --> 00:47:15.960 Of course, Yeah, that's that's why I'm doing it. Yeah, 581 00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:20.840 sure, okay. He's awfully sarcastic, you know, and very humble. 582 00:47:21.000 --> 00:47:27.920 Never I'm not I know what it means. Anyway, I'm I'm excited for 583 00:47:28.000 --> 00:47:30.360 you. It's it's fun to see which you, which you group of you 584 00:47:30.440 --> 00:47:35.159 have pulled together here. Just you know, it speaks to the power of 585 00:47:35.159 --> 00:47:37.960 web assembly once again, as if we didn't think it was powerful enough already, 586 00:47:38.480 --> 00:47:44.880 that it is possible to take this these tools and through your past work, 587 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:47.360 not knowing this would ever be possible, be able to implement it into 588 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:51.599 into the context of browser. Yeah, it's it's all thanks to the dotnut. 589 00:47:51.639 --> 00:47:54.719 It's it's really great. Yeah, Like I saw the work of native 590 00:47:54.760 --> 00:48:01.000 PHP guys doing all the all the work making assembly possible, but we just 591 00:48:01.400 --> 00:48:07.880 didn't have to do anything. We just worked happy quickly. Yeah. Yeah, 592 00:48:07.079 --> 00:48:14.039 who's on the righteous path now? So what's in your inbox? What's 593 00:48:14.079 --> 00:48:19.239 next for you? For me? Yeah, in context of web assembly or 594 00:48:19.280 --> 00:48:24.360 whatever whatever. Actually, most of the time I'm working on the PHB language 595 00:48:24.360 --> 00:48:30.320 integration for we just we just do a code where we have tons of feedbacks 596 00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:39.760 and suggestions, so we are may improving code analysis and actually we are doing 597 00:48:39.920 --> 00:48:46.039 AI completion like something like get up compiled and stuff. But we are we 598 00:48:46.119 --> 00:48:50.840 have a deeper knowledge of PHB and we have a lot of a lot of 599 00:48:50.840 --> 00:48:54.639 source coding PHB, so we can make it a little bit smarter. So 600 00:48:54.719 --> 00:49:00.400 we are working on AI right now. Nice and preferments a lot of performance 601 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:07.880 because PHP projects are huge. It's really thousands and thousands of files, and 602 00:49:08.119 --> 00:49:15.760 people for some reason expect the language integration for labors to the code won't eat 603 00:49:15.840 --> 00:49:21.519 up all day in memory and it will be super fast and things like that. 604 00:49:21.599 --> 00:49:29.119 So we are using various tweaks and uh like knowledge about dot net to 605 00:49:29.199 --> 00:49:35.360 make it super fast. And it's like most of my work because we have 606 00:49:36.039 --> 00:49:40.000 people complaining all the times we are improving this kind of work. Okay, 607 00:49:40.039 --> 00:49:45.079 so these are phptwols or visual studio and visual studio code, yes for just 608 00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:50.400 and we just did a code right which is fun because we uh we started 609 00:49:50.840 --> 00:49:55.039 PHP twols for resal studio like ten something years ago, which is actually a 610 00:49:55.119 --> 00:50:00.320 part we just we just took a part of the compiler from philaner MM and 611 00:50:00.559 --> 00:50:06.639 use it and use it for for this intelligence for revision studio, and then 612 00:50:06.800 --> 00:50:12.800 then we update it to dot Net standard, created newgate packages from it, 613 00:50:13.800 --> 00:50:19.719 and used compilation to native code and made it an extension for regis to the 614 00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:23.000 code out of the box awesome. So we didn't have to rewrite it to 615 00:50:23.559 --> 00:50:29.079 to type script to JavaScript or because we just did the code is in JavaScript. 616 00:50:29.320 --> 00:50:32.360 Nice, and we just took C sharp and move it just like that 617 00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:37.960 and boom we we had intelligence. What also means you can maintain it between 618 00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.960 the two code base it's one code base, yeah, exactly. We have 619 00:50:42.039 --> 00:50:45.599 one set of tests. We have one code base and one place going to 620 00:50:45.599 --> 00:50:50.199 show up in the other. Right, Yeah, that's that's great about it. 621 00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:53.480 And then we have third integration for regis to the code in browser, 622 00:50:54.320 --> 00:51:00.679 which is all those things compiled as a web assembly. Jeez, that's crazy. 623 00:51:00.800 --> 00:51:05.239 That's awesome. So we really we really have just one code base and 624 00:51:05.280 --> 00:51:10.119 it's running everywhere my coos Linux, Windows, which studio code everywhere. And 625 00:51:10.159 --> 00:51:14.880 this is because dot net. Yeah, it's because I'm dot net. Yeah, 626 00:51:15.079 --> 00:51:17.119 it's because we are working with dot net since version one point. Oh 627 00:51:19.199 --> 00:51:23.719 and we just know know some stuff. Yeah, it gives us that portability. 628 00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:28.119 Great story, yeah, great story, regulations on all this work. 629 00:51:28.119 --> 00:51:30.719 It's awesome. Absolutely. Oh, thank you very much, and thank you 630 00:51:30.840 --> 00:51:32.920 for spending this hour with us. It's been amazing. Oh, it's been 631 00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:37.360 pleasure anytime. Okay, we'll take you up on that and we'll talk to 632 00:51:37.400 --> 00:52:02.360 you, dear listener next time. I'm dot net Rocks dot net Rocks is 633 00:52:02.400 --> 00:52:07.360 brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service 634 00:52:07.400 --> 00:52:13.519 audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 635 00:52:13.559 --> 00:52:19.480 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website 636 00:52:19.480 --> 00:52:24.480 at dt n et r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile 637 00:52:24.480 --> 00:52:29.760 apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number 638 00:52:29.760 --> 00:52:34.000 one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check 639 00:52:34.039 --> 00:52:37.920 out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code 640 00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:39.360 CE next time we got