1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:04,759 How'd you like to listen to dot net rocks with no ads? Easy? 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:09,880 Become a patron For just five dollars a month you get access to a private 3 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,400 RSS feed where all the shows have no ads. Twenty dollars a month will 4 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,800 get you that and a special dot net Rocks patron mug. Sign up now 5 00:00:18,839 --> 00:00:23,679 at Patreon dot dot net rocks dot com. Hey Carlin, Richard here. 6 00:00:24,000 --> 00:00:29,199 As you may have heard, NDC is back offering their incredible in person conferences 7 00:00:29,239 --> 00:00:33,600 around the world, and we'd like to tell you about them. NDC Copenhagen 8 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:38,439 is happening August twenty seventh through the thirty first. The early bird discount for 9 00:00:38,600 --> 00:00:45,039 NDC Copenhagen ends June second. Go to NDC Copenhagen dot com for more information. 10 00:00:45,799 --> 00:00:50,159 NDC Porto is happening October sixteenth through the twentieth. The early bird discount 11 00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,119 for ADC Porto ends July twenty first. Go to Dcporto dot com to register 12 00:00:55,479 --> 00:01:12,680 and check out the full lineup of conferences at NDC Conferences dot com. Oops, 13 00:01:12,719 --> 00:01:15,680 I did it again. It's dot and Rocks. This is Carl Franklin, 14 00:01:15,799 --> 00:01:22,359 and this is Richard Campbell, and again we're year Britney Spears. Is 15 00:01:22,359 --> 00:01:26,719 that what you're doing now? You know, I'm so out of jokes it's 16 00:01:26,840 --> 00:01:34,239 not even funny. Please send your jokes somebody, please. Um. So 17 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:40,480 we are continuing our pile up of recordings before the conference season starts. I 18 00:01:40,519 --> 00:01:42,239 think this is the last one. I think this is the last one. 19 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:47,159 Yeah. Next time we record will be at Techo Rama and Antwerp. Yeah. 20 00:01:47,159 --> 00:01:49,959 Wow, that's right. Yeah, yeah, I'm looking boy man. 21 00:01:49,000 --> 00:01:52,640 We really crushed it in the last week. We had some fun. Uh, 22 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:55,040 it's been a while since we've gone. You know, this once a 23 00:01:55,079 --> 00:01:59,920 week thing is so easy for us. Yeah, ridiculous from going from the 24 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,359 back in the times we did three times a week. Ye. But yeah, 25 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:06,480 we sort of did that three times a week feeling schedule to get a 26 00:02:06,519 --> 00:02:09,120 few weeks ahead so we can go to conferences and be confident that we'll publish 27 00:02:09,159 --> 00:02:14,000 every week no matter what. Right, exactly. No, you won't see 28 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:16,319 any reruns here on dot net rocks. We don't do that. That's not 29 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:21,840 what we do. No, there's always stuff to talk about, including better 30 00:02:21,879 --> 00:02:31,599 no framework. So let's roll the crazy music, all right, man? 31 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,479 What do you got? What? God mo, hippo? Than what you 32 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,280 got all right. So this is an article that came out on the twelfth 33 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:44,280 of April on The Verge. You've been reading The Verge lately. I notice 34 00:02:44,479 --> 00:02:46,560 it's got some good stuff. You know, they report about stuff that you 35 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:50,759 don't hear anywhere else. That might mean it's bullcrap, but who knows. 36 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:55,560 So this story is Microsoft is changing the print screen key to open its own 37 00:02:55,759 --> 00:03:00,360 snipping tool on Windows eleven. I think I like this, You do, 38 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:02,199 yeah, and I'll tell you why because right now, when you hit print 39 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,360 screen, you don't even know if you hit print screen. It's true, 40 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:08,199 right, Like on many keyboards, the print screen button is bared behind like 41 00:03:08,199 --> 00:03:12,159 a function key or something else, right, so it's like, did it 42 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:14,479 hit the prince screen or not? You got to go check fire up, 43 00:03:14,479 --> 00:03:17,439 paint and check board. Yeah, as we all do. So the fact 44 00:03:17,439 --> 00:03:21,680 that now you'll know you hit it because immediately the snipping tool appears. I 45 00:03:21,759 --> 00:03:23,319 kind of like this, Well, there are other tools that do that, 46 00:03:23,479 --> 00:03:28,599 right, So if you have the what's the one from Camp Tajia tech smith, 47 00:03:29,199 --> 00:03:31,840 Right, there's a grabber or something like that that's everybody's been using for 48 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:36,960 years, for years and years. So people have these tools that I like 49 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:40,240 you, Richard, I got used to you know, opening paint, copying, 50 00:03:40,319 --> 00:03:44,680 cropping, all that stuff, and it's just my workflow. So right, 51 00:03:45,039 --> 00:03:46,800 you know, I'll give it a try. Well, it sounds like 52 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:49,039 you can adjust the setting, so if you want to use something else, 53 00:03:49,159 --> 00:03:51,599 right, knock yourself out. Okay, you could just set it up so 54 00:03:51,680 --> 00:03:53,960 it goes to paint automatically, just opens paint. That's pretty cool. So 55 00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:59,719 it is the first time in decades that the print screen button functionality has changed 56 00:03:59,759 --> 00:04:03,319 and knows. So it's a momentous occasion, and I will give it a 57 00:04:03,319 --> 00:04:08,879 shot, you know, because change is fine. As long as I have 58 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,159 a good workflow and I get used to it, that's great. No, 59 00:04:12,319 --> 00:04:18,279 no, change is good. You go first, You go first, all 60 00:04:18,360 --> 00:04:20,800 right? Man, who's talking to us today? Grabbed a comment off a 61 00:04:20,879 --> 00:04:25,600 show eighteen thirty eight, not that long ago, back in March of twenty 62 00:04:25,639 --> 00:04:29,120 twenty three, when we talked to one Javier Nelson and Steve Sanderson. We're 63 00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,879 talking about Blazer United, because you know, it's the all WASM show these 64 00:04:31,959 --> 00:04:34,879 days, isn't it. We're not talking AI, We're talking WASM. By 65 00:04:34,879 --> 00:04:38,800 the way, a preview just came out that has some of the Blazer United 66 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,680 stuff in it, just a couple of days ago. Yeah, as usual. 67 00:04:42,839 --> 00:04:46,040 Those guys are crazy smart and that's awesome cool stuff. So Bear, 68 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:50,160 and that's the name Bear. Bear says, I love the work to Microsoft 69 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:54,279 does on Blazer, and I truly believe that web assembly or something similar. 70 00:04:54,319 --> 00:04:57,600 I don't think there's anything similar will be the future. Well, I mean 71 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:00,600 client development, for sure, there are other future there's a future involving mars. 72 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:05,240 I don't think it needs webisely, it might, right, I hope 73 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:11,160 it does. Actually, let's talk to Elon. I would really like to 74 00:05:11,199 --> 00:05:15,079 hear a show about why Microsoft chooses technology like React in their products instead of 75 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:19,800 Blazer. And his example that hecites is the new version of Teams, So 76 00:05:19,959 --> 00:05:26,639 Teams two point zero. They moved off of Electron and they're now using React, 77 00:05:26,680 --> 00:05:30,040 and Bear says, what are the reasoning behind such choices? Yeah, 78 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:31,560 I'd love to hear your thoughts, Carl. Yeah, Well, my thought 79 00:05:31,639 --> 00:05:38,360 is they like to choose stuff that's done and used and established, and not 80 00:05:38,399 --> 00:05:42,279 that Blazer isn't done. But it's still, as you say, I'm moving 81 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,639 target because of what's happening with Blazer United. They're still innovating, do you 82 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:47,879 know what I mean? Yeah? No, I think I think you're you're 83 00:05:47,959 --> 00:05:51,680 right, yeah, yeah. More importantly, it's like you're only hearing about 84 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:58,360 the move to react now when they're finished. How long have they been working 85 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,000 on it? Two years? So what was Blazer like two years ago? 86 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:06,120 Right? And like getting to the other reality that we know very well, 87 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,800 which is Microsoft is not one big company, right, it's many different groups, 88 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,040 and the team's group gets to make their own choices, right, and 89 00:06:14,160 --> 00:06:19,399 they support open source, even open source made by Facebook. So yeah, 90 00:06:19,480 --> 00:06:23,120 I mean I think that choice was made a long time ago when there weren't 91 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:26,600 alternative. It's a good choice and they made a good choice. And it 92 00:06:26,600 --> 00:06:30,480 doesn't mean that they don't change the stack for teams three point zero because because 93 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:35,720 what's the alternative, Like they come out with something that uses what Blazer not 94 00:06:35,759 --> 00:06:41,360 even Blazer six, Right, it would have been earlier than that. Yeah. 95 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:45,279 The love affair you have with Blazer right now is recent. Yeah, 96 00:06:45,959 --> 00:06:49,000 Yeah, we saw the potential long ago, but when you actually need to 97 00:06:49,120 --> 00:06:56,519 rebuild a product that's used by literally hundreds of millions of people, you have 98 00:06:56,560 --> 00:06:59,120 to have some pretty good confidence that that framework is going to do everything you 99 00:06:59,120 --> 00:07:01,600 needed to do. It isn't going to change and disrupt everything. I think 100 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,759 that's the more important thing, right, I would react totally fair, So 101 00:07:04,759 --> 00:07:08,319 Bart, I hope that addresses your question. I don't know if there's a 102 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,120 show in there or not, but I'm not saying I wouldn't do it either, 103 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:14,240 although I might actually do it. Over on run as Radio, we're 104 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:17,079 talk a fair bit more about teams in the M three sixty five context. 105 00:07:17,720 --> 00:07:24,920 Bart did end is his message with dot net rocks rocks and we think so 106 00:07:25,040 --> 00:07:28,199 too. Yeah, we do. And a copy of ustic Code Buy is 107 00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:30,839 on its way to un If you'd like a copy of music Code by right 108 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:33,720 a comment on the website at dot net rocks dot com or on Facebook. 109 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:38,079 We publish every show there as well, and if I read your comment, 110 00:07:38,199 --> 00:07:41,120 we'll send you copy of music Code Buy. And you know, you can 111 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:44,319 follow us on Twitter if you like. That's great. But the real cool 112 00:07:44,600 --> 00:07:48,639 people are over on mastadon, so follow us there. I'm at Carl Franklin 113 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,720 at tech hub dot social, and I'm Rich Campbell at mastadon dot social. 114 00:07:53,879 --> 00:07:59,399 Send us a two ruty two two and let's bring on an old friend of 115 00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:03,079 dot net X. We haven't talked to Jacob Wow since what twenty sixteen? 116 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:07,959 I think, Yeah, So this is going to be all about peach pie 117 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,319 on web assembly, and Jacob Mischik is a veteran dot net developer. He's 118 00:08:11,319 --> 00:08:15,560 going to tell you all about it. He's a co founder of io level, 119 00:08:15,959 --> 00:08:20,519 where he's working on the peach pie compiler platform, co founder of dev 120 00:08:20,639 --> 00:08:24,319 sense, where he's providing advanced PHP development tools for visual Studio and vs code. 121 00:08:24,759 --> 00:08:31,000 He's a sports enthusiast and PhD candidate in software engineering in the Charles University 122 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:35,639 in Prague. Welcome back, Hider, Hey, great, great to be 123 00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:39,879 back. I was asking Jacob how how I pronounced his name and he gave 124 00:08:39,919 --> 00:08:41,559 me this pronunciation and I said, well, what does your mother call you? 125 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:48,000 And he says son? So I almost did it. I love his 126 00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:52,279 son is a veteran dot neet developer. No never, Okay, remind us 127 00:08:52,279 --> 00:08:56,919 what peach pie is, all right. So peach pie is a compiler of 128 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:03,120 PHP language into the dot neet assembly. So it's actually the same compiler as 129 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:11,720 a C sharp compiler. It translates the language into into this managed bytecode MSIL 130 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:20,840 but it's not just a compiler. It's also the whole supporting Grundtime library and 131 00:09:20,080 --> 00:09:26,320 all the PHP extensions reimplemented into the c sharp language. So it's really the 132 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:35,240 complete PHP language platform, including support for visuals to do image studio code for 133 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:39,320 dot Net. So it's completely managed. It is surprising to you as it 134 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,799 is to me, that there isn't PHP support in Visual Studio and in dot 135 00:09:43,799 --> 00:09:48,679 Net just in the box. Actually there is like small support and visuals to 136 00:09:48,720 --> 00:09:52,639 do like like text or syntax, highlighting, syntax, colorization. Actually I 137 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:58,919 have a second product which fully integrates the native PHP Intevidual Studio because it's it's 138 00:10:00,159 --> 00:10:03,000 not there yet, okay, And there's real a lot of people working in 139 00:10:03,039 --> 00:10:09,240 Visual Studio and they just need to work with PHP as well. So right, 140 00:10:09,440 --> 00:10:11,360 yeah, so that's it, and we want something a little bit better 141 00:10:11,399 --> 00:10:16,000 than just a text editor. We want we want to compile right to dot 142 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,799 Net. We have to live in the studio, right, we have all 143 00:10:18,840 --> 00:10:20,919 our tools at a disposal. Yeah, wow, that's very cool. So 144 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:28,080 the story now is web assembly support. Yeah? Right? Uh so, 145 00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:33,840 so we did it like a year ago and then just we didn't to care 146 00:10:33,879 --> 00:10:39,360 about it. But once you once you once I say your email, I 147 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:45,039 was surprised, as you'll remember. Actually it's pretty cool because having a compiler 148 00:10:45,320 --> 00:10:50,960 of some language into dot net is giving you great opportunities because once you have 149 00:10:50,039 --> 00:10:56,200 a language compile to dot net, you can do anything without actually doing anything, 150 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:01,799 because everything is just managed by Microsoft and all the great people working on 151 00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:05,320 the project. So right, once you get to I L you're you're smooth 152 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:09,200 sailing. Yeah, but you have debugging, you have like performance profiling, 153 00:11:09,720 --> 00:11:16,200 and you have webossimbly as well. So we just we just actually tried it. 154 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:22,960 We compiled PHP into msile and we run it on webostibli, which is 155 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:26,720 actually like monoun time, right, it's actually mondoun time hooked into your browser 156 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:35,159 like interpreting your msile code, and it magically works with compiled PHP as well. 157 00:11:35,159 --> 00:11:39,960 It didn't even notice it's it's not C sharp, right. So one 158 00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,799 big use case that comes to mind is you have a Blazer application and then 159 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:48,279 there's some you know, maybe some I don't know, scientific or financial or 160 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:54,159 other kind of academic routines in PHP that you want to include, and rather 161 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:58,679 try to convert the source code from PHP two C sharp and get it running 162 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:03,000 that way, you can just turn it into an assembly and it's work. 163 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:09,320 You can create its own an assembly class library with it and just add it 164 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:11,399 to your right project. Right, you can. You can have it all 165 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:16,480 in the same directory, your PHP everything. It can have few project files, 166 00:12:16,519 --> 00:12:20,279 one project file for HR, one project file for PHP. It gets 167 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:28,480 linked together, and you can even like communicate between HP, Php, JavaScript, 168 00:12:28,039 --> 00:12:35,279 everything together. Everything gets like native marshaled into into dot net, so 169 00:12:35,519 --> 00:12:39,399 so nobody knows what's the other language. Actually, you can now call JavaScript 170 00:12:39,519 --> 00:12:43,600 right from PHB and vice versa, and really everything together. We can even 171 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:50,759 have a component in your Blazer website, in your Blazer page which is in 172 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,600 PHB and the rest of the page is in C sharp. So okay, 173 00:12:54,679 --> 00:13:01,799 So so you've got a page or a component and you might have inline uh 174 00:13:01,039 --> 00:13:05,879 you know, mark up control statements at if and all that stuff which is 175 00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:11,440 C sharp or before each or whatever. But then you call in a co 176 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:16,279 behind file, right, your co behind file can be in PHP rather than 177 00:13:16,320 --> 00:13:20,120 c sharp, right, you can. You can have either cod behind file 178 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:24,919 in PHP or like PHP. Developers are web designers as well. They like 179 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,759 half of the half of the projects, half the PhD projects are front ends 180 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:35,080 sure, so they have a lot of front end controllers in PHB like PHP, 181 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:41,000 slash slash HTML, so you can you can even have a part of 182 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:48,679 your Blazer page as a PHB rendered with PHP, rendered with PHP rather than 183 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,480 the Blazer component model, rather than YEP. Because because you can create like 184 00:13:54,919 --> 00:14:01,039 small five flying code which represents a component in Blazer t sharp and incited control. 185 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:07,240 You can render your PHP using our peachpi API. Like we can put 186 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,519 it all together and in the end you don't even know what language you are 187 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:16,840 actually using. Now I'm baffled because phpgim was like HP dot net web forms, 188 00:14:16,879 --> 00:14:22,159 like it was a server side technology that's spat out HTML and then you 189 00:14:22,279 --> 00:14:26,840 posted back to the to the server to execute more PHP to render something else. 190 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:31,279 Like all those metaphors involve a trip to the server, like what happens 191 00:14:31,279 --> 00:14:35,399 when you're living in a client. There's all the differences actually because like when 192 00:14:35,399 --> 00:14:41,000 you're working with PHPU are you expect the server? Yeah, and the filesystem 193 00:14:41,039 --> 00:14:48,480 and database and everything. So actually we don't we don't have to care about 194 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:52,240 it because there is this dot and standard library and all the phpcause all the 195 00:14:52,320 --> 00:14:58,000 PHP APIs are translated to something dot Net in the end. So wow, 196 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:05,039 if it throws any exceptions like not supported exception, it just does. We 197 00:15:05,159 --> 00:15:07,759 can't we can't do anything about this web world. So which is going to 198 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:11,399 keep running? Right? It just keeps wrong? Resumed next. Yeah, 199 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:13,440 but you can. You can implement almost anything. So if you if you 200 00:15:13,519 --> 00:15:18,799 miss a feature like filesystem or anything, it can just just creates a file 201 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,200 system provider and make happy noises. It makes happy noises. Yeah, you 202 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:26,559 can. You can have some virtual file system behind and it will work. 203 00:15:26,759 --> 00:15:30,399 Right. I mean, now you're talking about PHP as SPA. That's essentially 204 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:33,960 what it is, a single plage application as a single plage application, right 205 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:37,799 that all of it will be executing in the browser and then possibly calling what 206 00:15:37,960 --> 00:15:41,399 it thinks are back end components, but are actually just components in dot Net 207 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:46,399 that are making the remote called or fetch data. It's PHP as SPA. 208 00:15:46,679 --> 00:15:50,000 That's right. We should we should call it. We should call it allid 209 00:15:50,039 --> 00:15:54,200 it, we should call it. Yeah. Yeah, because when you hear 210 00:15:54,279 --> 00:15:58,559 peach pie, I'm thinking raspberry pie, which is you know, it's still 211 00:15:58,559 --> 00:16:03,320 a fruit in front of the word I so what pitch? Yeah, I 212 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:07,679 get it now. Yeah, I think we were looking for a fruit actually 213 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:11,879 because everything right that time was through it so well. In peach Pie has 214 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:15,399 PHP in it, Like I get it. I do equate it that way. 215 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:18,399 I don't know that you can give up on that brand just yeah, 216 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:23,759 but this peach Pie spot just amuses me, right, or because that's effectively 217 00:16:23,799 --> 00:16:27,320 what you're doing, even though it's not necessarily the same set of metaphors. 218 00:16:27,399 --> 00:16:32,799 It's like, now this would work. It's just weird. It makes sense. 219 00:16:33,039 --> 00:16:37,159 I will use it somewhere because actually, since we have it all managed 220 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:40,639 and we can like play around and we have our own run time, we 221 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:47,159 can do like stuff like for example, PHPs lifts within its request. Once 222 00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:51,799 the request ends, everything you did in your PHP code, all the memory 223 00:16:51,919 --> 00:16:56,240 or the arriables, everything just dies. Right. But with peach Pie, 224 00:16:56,320 --> 00:17:02,519 we actually don't have this single pro like multiple process approach. We have multiple 225 00:17:02,799 --> 00:17:08,440 multi threaded approach, so other requests are threads and we can keep things living 226 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:14,519 in the process. So for example, with the web assembly, we can 227 00:17:14,640 --> 00:17:21,480 like keep the context of the application living across more requests, so you can 228 00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:27,720 gain a great performance booths because like eighty percent of for example, eighty percent 229 00:17:27,799 --> 00:17:34,400 of empty Larva page is just initializing stuff and loading classes and declarations and everything, 230 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,960 and we can do it just once and keep it in memories. So 231 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:45,039 there's a great possibilities, like we could do it if someone would care. 232 00:17:45,799 --> 00:17:51,400 You know what's interesting about that is that UM web assembly isn't really fully getting 233 00:17:51,680 --> 00:17:56,599 multi threaded support the plays or web assembly until that and at eight. But 234 00:17:56,759 --> 00:18:00,759 there's there's like a little preview. Now you can take a look at it. 235 00:18:00,799 --> 00:18:07,480 But but you're but web assembly obviously can be multi threaded, so you're 236 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:11,839 taking advantage of that even before Blazer does. Yeah, there's a lot of 237 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:18,599 things related. First, it's not multi threaded, but it's a sink, 238 00:18:18,799 --> 00:18:23,480 so okay, you can. You can run small tasks in a row. 239 00:18:26,759 --> 00:18:29,960 But PAHP is not a sink. So so which when you say it's not 240 00:18:30,079 --> 00:18:34,519 multi threaded, do you mean peach Pie web assembly or Blazer like web assembly 241 00:18:34,880 --> 00:18:41,559 is uh as I remember as I remember when I was using it, it's 242 00:18:41,559 --> 00:18:48,039 everything the JavaScript was not multi threaded because it's not ready for it yet. 243 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:52,480 You don't have any any critic sections, any monitors, any locks, So 244 00:18:52,519 --> 00:18:56,440 I think it's purely a sin a sink, so you can, okay, 245 00:18:56,559 --> 00:19:02,160 you can put your small tasks into the task schedule awaited them and it will 246 00:19:02,200 --> 00:19:10,359 get executed somewhere. Peachbot is multi tredit, but since we have to behave 247 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:15,759 like PHP, we we just behave like we are not multi tredit. So 248 00:19:15,799 --> 00:19:21,319 I'm reading from web Dot dev Slash, web Assembly Dash threads and it says 249 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,200 a web assembly threads support is one of the most important performance additions to web 250 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,039 assembly, and this is from July twenty twenty one. It allows you to 251 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:33,160 either run parts of your code in parallel or on separate cores, or on 252 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:38,519 the same code over independent parts of the input data, scaling it to as 253 00:19:38,559 --> 00:19:44,799 many cores as the user has, and significantly reducing all overall execution time. 254 00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,920 So awesome. I know there is a like opened issue on on Blazer that 255 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:53,960 Microsoft should do it. It's r and there's a framework you know or how's 256 00:19:53,960 --> 00:20:00,440 it called UNO which is multi tredit. Yeah, but PHP is not so 257 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:06,039 well. It looks like web assembly has multi threading through this worker's thing from 258 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:11,279 JavaScript that web assembly does have multi threading, but a question is can those 259 00:20:11,319 --> 00:20:15,920 workers work like threads? Yeah, I'm not sure. I'm going to post 260 00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:19,519 this link so Richard can add it. I was actually recently doing a like 261 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:27,480 extension for wes code running in browser, and I took our extension written in 262 00:20:27,519 --> 00:20:33,279 c sharp in dot net and we just compiled it to web assembly and running 263 00:20:33,319 --> 00:20:37,440 it in wes code in browser. Nice, just like that. So we 264 00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:42,279 had a problem with threading because we just couldn't couldn't start threads. All the 265 00:20:42,319 --> 00:20:49,400 threads were just queuing after each other and we may have to use the workers 266 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:55,200 worker constructor to create them. Yeah, but they couldn't talk to each other 267 00:20:55,319 --> 00:20:57,720 very well, so we couldn't share a memory. We had to we had 268 00:20:57,759 --> 00:21:03,599 to use some kind of Okay, now I'm reading that there's a shared array 269 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,960 buffer, Yeah, something like that. It's not the threading as we are 270 00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:14,119 used to put a convenient way right anyways. Anyways, Well, that's good 271 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,880 to know that you're thinking about it and that you know eventually it'll work itself 272 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:25,079 out. Yeah, definitely, one day. It would great. It would 273 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:30,039 be great for PHP because they're like trying to get the benefit of threats, 274 00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:34,240 but it's it's not the fullidare yet. Well, yeah, because that whole 275 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:41,240 worker role thing in the browser has always been a bit wonky. I don't 276 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,079 I don't know if it's stayed back now because websembly is pressed against it. 277 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,599 I hope it is. But right, you used to you used to be 278 00:21:47,640 --> 00:21:49,559 able. We always will proposed this idea of you're gonna be able to call 279 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,880 this worker helper and it's going to be able to run this thing independently, 280 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,640 but it never seemed to actually work like that. Yeah, but I think 281 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,680 that's different when you look at the webs level and you're literally running inside the 282 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,440 context where JavaScript would normally run and say, hey, I just want to 283 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:08,240 be able to do these things because I don't think a PHP is multi threaded 284 00:22:08,279 --> 00:22:11,880 either, right, Like normally you're going back to a server with a short 285 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:17,200 lived instance that executes and dies and so you know, yeah, maybe using 286 00:22:17,279 --> 00:22:19,640 multiple threads, but they've got not do with each other. Right, There 287 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:26,000 is no like native support for threads. There's an extension for doing things on 288 00:22:26,039 --> 00:22:30,720 a bag round tread, but again it's not like we are used to from 289 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,200 HR. But you can share of variables and do stuff like because we're living 290 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,480 in webland where all of this stuff is on the server and short lived, 291 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:42,000 Like, why would you spend the energy setting up a bunch of threads when 292 00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:45,559 you're going to tear them down in a few seconds anyway. Ye are there 293 00:22:45,599 --> 00:22:51,759 any other implementations of PHP as a client only? Uh? System? Actually, 294 00:22:51,759 --> 00:22:59,119 there is a native PHP running as a web assembly, so I think 295 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:07,400 they even got through running Droople framework people in browser with with squill light uh, 296 00:23:07,839 --> 00:23:11,920 and it seems to work. I haven't noticed like anyone using it actually, 297 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:17,759 but it's there. The only downside is it's pretty large. You have 298 00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:22,200 to download like ten twenty makeabytes of data. You're talking about Droople though, 299 00:23:22,599 --> 00:23:26,160 that's big duple and the PHP run time itself, because yeah, you have 300 00:23:26,240 --> 00:23:30,119 to download the whole PHP run time. Okay, As a web assembly, 301 00:23:30,319 --> 00:23:34,759 you're just boumbing around GitHub. I think I've found three web assembly run times 302 00:23:34,759 --> 00:23:40,400 for PHP, so people are experimenting, right. Two of them are dead 303 00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:45,880 already. There's just one one alive when it's driving. And obviously the performances 304 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:51,359 of your code is going to increase when it's running in web assembly versus when 305 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:56,200 it's on the server. It's not a system like Blazer where right, where 306 00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:02,160 there's like a yeah, a graph for every user on the server. And 307 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,599 you know, it's not like Blazer's server. So I guess when you take 308 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,880 code that you've run on the server and then now move it to the client. 309 00:24:11,799 --> 00:24:15,640 There's going to be a performance increase in many many situations, isn't there. 310 00:24:15,839 --> 00:24:19,039 Oh yeah, there will be an increase because you have the whole PC 311 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:25,880 dedicated to your request, right, so the response will be immediate. You 312 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,119 don't have to wait for a network, you don't have to wait for the 313 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:32,319 server, and the server doesn't have to process like thousands of users at many 314 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,960 time. But at the same time, there might be a performance decrease because 315 00:24:38,319 --> 00:24:45,039 it's still running on a mono run time and it's actually not compiled to the 316 00:24:45,079 --> 00:24:48,160 machine code, right, it's interpreted right as far as I know, because 317 00:24:48,279 --> 00:24:53,200 like, yeah, we are trying to make it a running, compiled native 318 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,319 ahead of time, which will be a thin one right. Sure, Yeah, 319 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:03,200 Now let's star you're bringing this up um. Web assembly requires that it 320 00:25:03,279 --> 00:25:07,480 downloads well until Blazer United, which will be great. It requires that it 321 00:25:07,519 --> 00:25:12,359 downloads all the DLLs in web and assemblies that it needs before it can run. 322 00:25:14,079 --> 00:25:18,480 And so what is peach pie on web assembly? How big is that 323 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:26,279 download? Yeah? We actually we actually designed it with this in mind because 324 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:33,200 we wanted to take advantage of assembly trimming and make the resulting published assemblies as 325 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,319 small as possible. So we are actually doing a small trick during the compilation, 326 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:47,920 and we are creating a table of used classes and methods so the trimming 327 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:55,039 knows the methods are used and it won't just cut them off otherwise peach piece 328 00:25:55,079 --> 00:25:59,039 of dynamic language and you never know what metal to what function will be called. 329 00:25:59,519 --> 00:26:07,039 So we're just annotating and using this trick to avoid trimming stuff that will 330 00:26:07,079 --> 00:26:12,960 be used, it will be called, and the result you can get everything 331 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,440 trimmed and published to like four to six megabytes. Wow. And that's on 332 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:23,240 top of the basic web assemblies including dot net, including dot neet run time, 333 00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:27,359 oh including Oh okay, so that's about That's about what it is anyway, 334 00:26:27,400 --> 00:26:30,039 isn't it It's like two two and a half megabytes right now? Some 335 00:26:30,400 --> 00:26:34,440 Yeah, if it's a small PHB app just just a few classes and everything, 336 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,079 it's just nothing. Yeah, okay, so nothing to worry about if 337 00:26:38,079 --> 00:26:45,640 you have pdbs embedded so you can debugging everything, which is awesome because you're 338 00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:49,079 like debugging PHB and the Whisle studio and we just did it. Doesn't even 339 00:26:49,079 --> 00:26:55,640 know it's PHP. I like it. It's like ten megabytes, which is 340 00:26:56,319 --> 00:27:00,240 which is all right? M So what happens in the world of plays are 341 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:06,119 United? When you know there you can start off with a Blazer server application 342 00:27:06,279 --> 00:27:10,559 and then it will download all the assemblies in the background. Is there any 343 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:14,160 way that peach Pie can sort of ride that bandwagon? I think I'm a 344 00:27:14,200 --> 00:27:18,720 little bit like, I don't know what's Blazer United yet. Oh okay, 345 00:27:18,799 --> 00:27:22,000 a little bit. We're gonna have to talk to you later kind about this 346 00:27:22,279 --> 00:27:27,720 because there I think there's an opportunity. I don't know though, I don't 347 00:27:27,759 --> 00:27:33,279 know. I mean, but if you're basically talking about dot net assemblies just 348 00:27:33,599 --> 00:27:36,160 going from the server to the client, you might be able to hit your 349 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,680 ride on that. So essentially what it means is if you're familiar with Blazer 350 00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:45,559 Server in Blazer Web assembly in the two different models, Blazer server uses signal 351 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:51,119 R as a circuit in the background too, and it keeps a graph of 352 00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:56,119 the dom for each user in memory. And when there's some code change, 353 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,079 some UI code change, or whatever you want to call some code, it 354 00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:06,519 happens dynamically through signal R and on the server the code is executed and then 355 00:28:06,559 --> 00:28:08,839 it looks at a diff of you know, the dom and what has changed, 356 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:15,279 and it sends back these really small binary messages through JavaScript that updates the 357 00:28:15,759 --> 00:28:21,519 browser. So so it's fast, right, that's how it was before, 358 00:28:21,599 --> 00:28:26,079 right I remember, Yeah, I remember Blazer is putting IDs in generally it 359 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:32,319 remembers the dump tree with little i ds. It just updates the element. 360 00:28:32,559 --> 00:28:36,559 It's like magic the changes. Yeah, and so it's so what happens now 361 00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:40,799 is Blazer web assembly. Of course, you have to wait for everything to 362 00:28:40,799 --> 00:28:45,440 be downloaded. So they have this automode in Blazer United that you start on 363 00:28:45,519 --> 00:28:49,079 the server and in the background all the web assembly DLLs get downloaded and when 364 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:52,519 they come to life, boom, you're running on the client. And that's 365 00:28:52,559 --> 00:28:56,079 really cool. So and I think that's going to be the future of Blazer. 366 00:28:56,119 --> 00:28:59,720 It's just going to be called Blazer. There won't be a I mean 367 00:29:00,079 --> 00:29:03,200 is United of course. But all right, yeah, so wouldn't be cool 368 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,880 if you guys could sort of hit your ride in that mechanism. So you 369 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,359 should be talking to Steve Sanderson, all right. I think like a year 370 00:29:11,359 --> 00:29:17,920 ago, we've been working with a student from our university, Thomas Thomas, 371 00:29:18,079 --> 00:29:22,640 which Thomas was it. It was that Thomas who suck another another guy and 372 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:32,880 he was actually building an SDK for Blazer and PHP and he created a Blazer 373 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,200 control which behaves like an element in the in this domtree, but it renders 374 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:41,680 PHP inside it, and it could do this kind of stuff like it remembers 375 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:47,599 what was changed and it could send just the differences. Yeah. I think 376 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:52,920 this is the peas right that you sent. That's the one. That's the 377 00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,880 one. We still need to update it to the latest dot net but it's 378 00:29:56,880 --> 00:30:00,480 in dot neet five right now. Wow. But there's a part time that 379 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:03,400 we are doing this kind of stuff. Fantastic. This component is really I 380 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:08,960 think it can change just just the stuff that was that was changed, and 381 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:14,799 you can. We can. We even have an API for for PHP code 382 00:30:14,799 --> 00:30:21,000 itself, so developers can just changed only the stuff they want to, like 383 00:30:21,079 --> 00:30:23,759 in the reactor or other frameworks. And gentlemen, I need to interrupt for 384 00:30:23,839 --> 00:30:29,720 one moment for this very important message, and we're back. It's done that 385 00:30:29,839 --> 00:30:32,119 rock. So I'm Richard Campbell. That's Carl Franklin. Hey, Hey, 386 00:30:32,279 --> 00:30:36,119 talking to our friend Jacob a bit about PHP and web assembly and I was 387 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,200 just thinking, Wow, we've come a long way. Since Philanger. They 388 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:45,559 we talked to Thomas PETRISEC back in like two thousand and seven. Yeah, 389 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:51,480 yeah, two thousand and seven, early those early days. And but of 390 00:30:51,519 --> 00:30:56,400 course that project now I think in fully an archive, it's become peach Pie, 391 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,720 like it has a direct lineage. Yeah exactly. Uh, like I 392 00:30:59,799 --> 00:31:07,799 was working on Phalinger like sixteen years ago with Thomas. Thomas did a great 393 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:15,279 stuff with silver Ete and implementing like a lot of a lot of code that 394 00:31:15,839 --> 00:31:19,920 that that amount, that amount of work. Yeah, and uh, it's 395 00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:27,279 actually pitch Pie is the incarnation of Phalinger. Because we needed a new new 396 00:31:27,319 --> 00:31:33,119 platform. We needed to use rosalind compile platform, we needed new dot Net. 397 00:31:33,799 --> 00:31:41,039 We needed to avoid the old system reflection emit APIs because that's really slow. 398 00:31:41,839 --> 00:31:47,640 And thanks to this change, we cut the compile time from like on 399 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:53,200 large projects from two minutes to four seconds. So Roslin the new dot net, 400 00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,160 new dotnet and Roslyn actually because we can just emit code in parallel and 401 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:07,200 without calling into the native system native system stuff. So it was a great 402 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:14,160 change. And I feel like with about Somebody is also the reincarnation of silver 403 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:19,759 Light. And this in functionality, yes, it has the possibility at least. 404 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,920 Yeah, you don't get Zammal for free, right like, thank God, 405 00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:32,799 though thank God should die. Yeah, I you know, Billy, 406 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:37,240 I love Billy, Billy love Samal. It doesn't mean I have to love 407 00:32:37,279 --> 00:32:42,119 sam And not a lot of m VVM in your life either, right Like, 408 00:32:42,119 --> 00:32:44,000 But I think that's what I think about. What I think abouts silver 409 00:32:44,079 --> 00:32:47,319 Light is well, yeah, VM in Zammal with C sharp. Yeah, 410 00:32:47,359 --> 00:32:52,759 MVM is kind of required when you use Samal and when you use Blazer. 411 00:32:52,319 --> 00:32:57,599 The consensus is it isn't really all that important. There are other ways, 412 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:00,200 yeah, yeah, and you can you can do the same stuff like Thomas 413 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:06,519 thirteen fourteen years ago, he did a game in silver Light using PHP this 414 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:13,119 helicopter. He was shooting stones or something, and we actually achieved to make 415 00:33:13,160 --> 00:33:16,640 a game intimbly using PHP and Blazer as well. So you can do that. 416 00:33:16,799 --> 00:33:21,400 Actually, wow, very cool. And you're calling into the canvas for 417 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,759 that. We are not rendering it. We are actually manipulating with HTM elements 418 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,160 amazing PHP, so you can crazy. That's the other thing you can. 419 00:33:30,319 --> 00:33:37,200 You can call JavaScript right from your PHP comer. PHP became a client cyclanguage, 420 00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:42,960 yeah, which I'm still just wrestling with Yeah, it's an interesting way 421 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:45,799 to think. You know, I think I cut you off or change the 422 00:33:45,839 --> 00:33:51,960 subject when you just when you were mentioning the AOT compilation ahead of time compilation 423 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:57,599 feature of web assembly and Blazer in particular, what were you going to say 424 00:33:57,599 --> 00:34:02,400 about that in the context of PHP. Yeah, it's it's a nightmare. 425 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:10,679 No, because because in theory, in theory, you cannot we cannot use 426 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:17,199 it because PHP is a dynamic language and you never know what API you will 427 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:22,480 need to use. You never know what functions will be called. So we 428 00:34:22,559 --> 00:34:25,679 have this switch in a compiler where we can tell, Okay, if you 429 00:34:25,760 --> 00:34:30,719 are really sure our compiler discovered all the functions that will be called, just 430 00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:38,119 go ahead. But in most cases I would it's it's it's just just test 431 00:34:38,159 --> 00:34:43,920 it. Just do a lot of tests otherwise. Otherwise, of course, 432 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:45,840 in dynamic language you just never you never know, you never know. We 433 00:34:46,159 --> 00:34:52,599 have we have some compiler options to exclude, to exclude references to libraries like 434 00:34:53,599 --> 00:35:00,079 my ESQUL, microscl bosgress and so on, so you can manually exclude references 435 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:07,000 to those to those assemblies, which helps server side things. Yeah, scripting, 436 00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:12,440 for example, we have the whole dynamic compilation, so so you can 437 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,559 do evil. It is it pronounced evil like evil? I don't know. 438 00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:24,760 Ye. For us it's evil, we call it evil. So you can 439 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:29,800 turn it off to to make it smaller, because without evil, you don't 440 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:34,800 need the whole compiler, right, sure, so it makes it smaller, 441 00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:38,840 and so and so on. So if you are sure you are statically linking 442 00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:44,719 all the stuff you need, you can you can turn the native head of 443 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:49,519 time compilation on it and then it works. We have some issues by people 444 00:35:49,519 --> 00:35:53,559 who tried it. Actually I wasn't brave enough to try it with phpyet. 445 00:35:53,920 --> 00:36:00,119 Okay, I'm just reading those issues and answering things like thank you for the 446 00:36:00,159 --> 00:36:07,320 issue. I hope you know what you are doing? Um, yeah, 447 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:10,320 that should be a great error message, right, or at least a warning. 448 00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:15,039 I hope you know what you're doing. It's your foot, Yeah, 449 00:36:14,079 --> 00:36:19,000 yeah, it should be. It should be a warning message, although it's 450 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:22,480 almost implied with every of the one of those warnings. Yeah. We we 451 00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:28,639 have a similar warning in there for for finalizers right in PHP, because in 452 00:36:28,679 --> 00:36:35,079 PHP you have this deterministic garbage collection, but in dotnet it's not deterministic. 453 00:36:35,159 --> 00:36:38,519 You never know when it happens, and it happens on another threat. But 454 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:44,440 in PHP it's always happening deterministically, like at the end of the function or 455 00:36:44,559 --> 00:36:47,599 somewhere. You can expect it because there is a reference counting implemented. So 456 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,119 if anyone has a finalizer in their PHP code, we just pop up a 457 00:36:52,199 --> 00:36:58,719 warning during the compilation time you have a finalizer, it's it's not like it 458 00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,840 won't work, it just would work. Can you implement I disposable? You 459 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:08,960 can implement it, but you have to call it explicitly. Sure, well, 460 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:14,199 I mean that's that's the indication, right. Anytime I create an object, 461 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:15,440 I look to see if it has a disposed method, and if it 462 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,800 does, I call it. That's just something we've gotten used to. It's 463 00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:23,000 not net developers. That would be nice. Yeah, uh, it's it's 464 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,480 not there in PHP. Okay, um, all right, I know what 465 00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:30,320 you're gonna say, Richard. Are you sure? Yeah? I think so, 466 00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:34,159 go ahead, word press. Yeah, that's exactly where I was going. 467 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:38,639 I mean, when you talk about PHP, it's one of the largest 468 00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:43,360 applications of the world. It's the most popular CMS in the world. It's 469 00:37:43,519 --> 00:37:47,960 bloody everywhere, and the PHP is the back end of it. But now 470 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,360 you could be running it in the front end. This is not a good 471 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,719 idea, but boy would be a fun thought experiment, Like what would that 472 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,960 even look like? All right? So uh yeah, we have some discussion 473 00:38:00,079 --> 00:38:07,519 with community about it. I think some people actually tried it. They ported 474 00:38:07,559 --> 00:38:13,679 it a lot of it already, which is the biggest business framework for PHP. 475 00:38:14,159 --> 00:38:16,400 Right, But WordPress is something like you just put it on the server 476 00:38:16,519 --> 00:38:21,440 and it works, yes, and or more a saently you buy it for 477 00:38:21,519 --> 00:38:24,639 three bucks a month from a provider somewhere, right. You don't even need 478 00:38:24,639 --> 00:38:29,880 to install it anymore really, and you just you just download your plugins and 479 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:34,599 themes from the dashboard. So right, it's totally different approach than than dot 480 00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:39,239 net. But in theory it works. We have it compiled in a normal 481 00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:45,400 way without the possembly and like twenty megabytes so compiled. It's not that I 482 00:38:45,440 --> 00:38:47,440 would thought you would be bigger than that. That's that's surprising. It's just 483 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,880 it's a small project. Well, but it's very file system based, so 484 00:38:55,079 --> 00:39:00,000 now you have the whole problem of where do you put all the file Yeah? 485 00:39:00,159 --> 00:39:06,440 Uh, thankfully we have all the filesystem APIs we have re implemented in 486 00:39:06,519 --> 00:39:10,039 c sharp, but we can do whatever we want. So internally, internally 487 00:39:10,039 --> 00:39:16,440 we have this filesystem provider, and just in case for just in the context 488 00:39:16,480 --> 00:39:21,960 of web assembly, we can just reimplement it to behave like something else. 489 00:39:22,599 --> 00:39:28,559 Sure we uh, I'm sure web assembly has or embrowser you can. You 490 00:39:28,559 --> 00:39:34,320 can have storage embrowsers so you can upload your your files. Yeah you have. 491 00:39:34,559 --> 00:39:37,159 Yeah, it's a little little limited. I would also think like quick 492 00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:42,960 over SMB, which is sort of the most bare metal way to communicate over 493 00:39:43,000 --> 00:39:46,480 the Internet safely for files, would be pretty impressive, although if you still 494 00:39:46,519 --> 00:39:52,519 get the latencies in web assembly. You have access to files within your local 495 00:39:53,239 --> 00:39:59,280 Webrew kind of thing, but it isn't anything that you can really really access 496 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:05,440 in use. But you do have, of course local storage right in session 497 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,000 storage. Local storage. You get five megabytes per per URL for whatever, 498 00:40:09,519 --> 00:40:13,400 and you could certainly use that. But it isn't like you can just reach 499 00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,840 out and open a file and the documents folder or that kind of or write 500 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,760 a file in the system. Yeah, yeah, we could. We could 501 00:40:21,159 --> 00:40:24,719 bend the WordPress a little bit so it wouldn't be that excessive with the file 502 00:40:24,800 --> 00:40:30,280 system access. But let's be clear, WordPress is already bent right, Like, 503 00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:31,920 it's not that. It's not a stretch. People do crazy things that 504 00:40:32,000 --> 00:40:37,920 word pressed all the time. You can do anything. There are extension points 505 00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,440 everywhere in the code. You can really change everything. So so in this 506 00:40:42,519 --> 00:40:46,159 way, we could just disable some functionalities to make it smaller and lighter. 507 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:52,239 We could make something like a virtual file system, so your files could be 508 00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:58,440 on some cloud provider. Maybe other files would be behaving like they are because 509 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:02,760 WordPress is touching all the files all the time. It's it's just just calling 510 00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:09,039 file exists for for many things to just check it's there, right, So 511 00:41:09,039 --> 00:41:14,280 we can just return like true true is there is there? Now? Don't 512 00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:19,400 bother me with that. Here's an even more ridiculous thought experiment. Um, 513 00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:24,119 last time I checked, Facebook still uses PHP. Could they be shipping some 514 00:41:24,159 --> 00:41:29,280 stuff down the web assembly? Woll would they? Does that even make sense? 515 00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:37,480 Client side Facebook even faster? That's what that will have? Like two 516 00:41:37,519 --> 00:41:43,760 gigabytes right, easy? Be massive. I think they moved to h h 517 00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:47,000 VM right, and no portion of the code is written in all the other 518 00:41:47,079 --> 00:41:52,719 languages. I think we spoke to to some guys from Facebook and they are 519 00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:58,960 using all kinds of languages. PHP is just a small portion of their of 520 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:04,480 their codes that they which you expect just because you started in one places, 521 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:07,400 I mean you change. You know, once upon a time Twitter was written 522 00:42:07,400 --> 00:42:12,480 in ruby. There are still pieces of ruby, right, and yeah, 523 00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:16,360 I think so, but but it's any off the rails. Saying Facebook is 524 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,840 PHP is any more correct than saying Twitters and Ruby right, like the Yeah, 525 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,960 that's where they started, but things have changed several lists Twitter would be 526 00:42:25,039 --> 00:42:30,400 yes, well I thought you said leaderless Twitter, but I wasn't going to 527 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,320 say that. I like how Rich Campbell has come around to my way of 528 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:43,119 thinking about the crazy person in charge of Twitter. Yeah, so at least 529 00:42:43,159 --> 00:42:46,119 at least it's fun. It is fun. Um. So on the list 530 00:42:46,159 --> 00:42:51,159 of gotcha's, are there any we we talked about sort of the threading and 531 00:42:51,199 --> 00:42:55,760 asynchronous stuff and some libraries that might not be ready for the browser because they 532 00:42:55,800 --> 00:43:01,199 access serviicide things. Is there anything else that is a gotcha that you're still 533 00:43:01,239 --> 00:43:08,840 battling with? Well, the database is a question because the database libraries are 534 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:14,719 working in the browser, but you would have to you would have to call 535 00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:19,480 your database on the server, right, So it's a question about security and 536 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:30,199 also performance because you frameworks like For example, WordPress are making tons of escot 537 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:35,480 queries within the samele requests, so that would be slow, I guess. 538 00:43:36,639 --> 00:43:43,559 But you can bundle escal light sure. I think you can fit it into 539 00:43:43,599 --> 00:43:47,920 those few megabytes of storage, so nice. You could access indextb, which 540 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:52,000 would be I think better than sq light. Esk light doesn't persist as it. 541 00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:57,559 I don't know. Yeah, I don't think it does, but I 542 00:43:57,559 --> 00:44:00,400 could. I could be wrong. Really. I think there's a just file 543 00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:02,679 and it can it can modify, but it would it wouldn't Pursis this too, 544 00:44:02,960 --> 00:44:07,559 Yes, yeah, but it isn't gonna It isn't gonna stay like a 545 00:44:07,639 --> 00:44:12,199 database stays, you know, probably not to know. You have to if 546 00:44:12,199 --> 00:44:15,639 you want you can use it like but then you have to sort of persist 547 00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:19,360 it with some other mechanism. Um. But an XTB would be good for 548 00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,039 a local database. But I think that you know, there's there's lots of 549 00:44:22,079 --> 00:44:30,000 tech out there that's available in in C sharp and you know Blazer that already 550 00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,880 does this. The problem is solved. So if you essentially hook hook into 551 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,039 those things, then you can call your APIs and you can call you know 552 00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:44,079 whatever using all the frameworks that are already there and Blazer, but that's if 553 00:44:44,119 --> 00:44:47,159 you have a Blazer app that's calling PHP. If you have a pure PHP 554 00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:53,239 app, maybe you can add the Blazer components to you know, do your 555 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:59,760 data management for your API stuff. That sounds yeah, yeah, good luck 556 00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:06,960 with tell me good list. This project part of your PhD thesis, well 557 00:45:07,199 --> 00:45:10,079 partially really. I mean you are a PhD candidate, which I find fascinating 558 00:45:10,079 --> 00:45:15,480 because that means you're on the path to actually be a computer scientist. You're 559 00:45:15,519 --> 00:45:21,280 clearly enamored of language and different operating operating constructs there, So yeah, I 560 00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:28,119 think I started. I started my PhD in the context of the other work 561 00:45:28,159 --> 00:45:30,639 I'm doing, which is the language integration for a visual studio, where I'm 562 00:45:30,679 --> 00:45:37,039 doing a lot of like PHP control flow analysis and data analysis and all the 563 00:45:37,079 --> 00:45:44,320 other stuff. So partially as because the compiler is actually an analysis tool. 564 00:45:45,199 --> 00:45:50,760 It is. So I did a lot of a lot of papers and presentations 565 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:59,280 about code analysis and performance and maybe like twenty percent of pitch pot is code 566 00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:05,159 analysis, so right, it is a part of PhD. I had some 567 00:46:05,199 --> 00:46:12,679 papers about Phialinger, and I was working with some other students on some academic 568 00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:16,280 papers on peach Pie as well. So it is a part. Part of 569 00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:22,000 it is uh major part is my other work where I'm doing like code diagnostics 570 00:46:22,079 --> 00:46:28,599 for for visuals to do. That's connected. They talk about a PhD thesis 571 00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:34,239 as contributing to the art. So you mean you're helping our industry grow. 572 00:46:34,280 --> 00:46:40,760 It's thinking around compilers. That's not to make it too heavy. That's the 573 00:46:40,840 --> 00:46:45,239 gig, right, Yeah, so maybe I should finish it right. And 574 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:52,280 there's that too. I mean Neil's bores PhD thesis was the atomic model, 575 00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:57,840 the idea that protons and neutrons are in a nucleus surrounded by electrons. Like 576 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:01,840 it's a lie we tell children and adults, but it was a useful lie. 577 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:05,639 And that literally, you know, he contributed to the art, like 578 00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,159 I always think in those terms. I talked to some of the working out 579 00:47:08,159 --> 00:47:13,199 a PhD. It's like, this is your contribution to our body of knowledge. 580 00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:15,960 Of course, Yeah, that's that's why I'm doing it. Yeah, 581 00:47:15,199 --> 00:47:20,840 sure, okay. He's awfully sarcastic, you know, and very humble. 582 00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:27,920 Never I'm not I know what it means. Anyway, I'm I'm excited for 583 00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,360 you. It's it's fun to see which you, which you group of you 584 00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:35,159 have pulled together here. Just you know, it speaks to the power of 585 00:47:35,159 --> 00:47:37,960 web assembly once again, as if we didn't think it was powerful enough already, 586 00:47:38,480 --> 00:47:44,880 that it is possible to take this these tools and through your past work, 587 00:47:45,039 --> 00:47:47,360 not knowing this would ever be possible, be able to implement it into 588 00:47:47,519 --> 00:47:51,599 into the context of browser. Yeah, it's it's all thanks to the dotnut. 589 00:47:51,639 --> 00:47:54,719 It's it's really great. Yeah, Like I saw the work of native 590 00:47:54,760 --> 00:48:01,000 PHP guys doing all the all the work making assembly possible, but we just 591 00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:07,880 didn't have to do anything. We just worked happy quickly. Yeah. Yeah, 592 00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:14,039 who's on the righteous path now? So what's in your inbox? What's 593 00:48:14,079 --> 00:48:19,239 next for you? For me? Yeah, in context of web assembly or 594 00:48:19,280 --> 00:48:24,360 whatever whatever. Actually, most of the time I'm working on the PHB language 595 00:48:24,360 --> 00:48:30,320 integration for we just we just do a code where we have tons of feedbacks 596 00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:39,760 and suggestions, so we are may improving code analysis and actually we are doing 597 00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:46,039 AI completion like something like get up compiled and stuff. But we are we 598 00:48:46,119 --> 00:48:50,840 have a deeper knowledge of PHB and we have a lot of a lot of 599 00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:54,639 source coding PHB, so we can make it a little bit smarter. So 600 00:48:54,719 --> 00:49:00,400 we are working on AI right now. Nice and preferments a lot of performance 601 00:49:00,480 --> 00:49:07,880 because PHP projects are huge. It's really thousands and thousands of files, and 602 00:49:08,119 --> 00:49:15,760 people for some reason expect the language integration for labors to the code won't eat 603 00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:21,519 up all day in memory and it will be super fast and things like that. 604 00:49:21,599 --> 00:49:29,119 So we are using various tweaks and uh like knowledge about dot net to 605 00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:35,360 make it super fast. And it's like most of my work because we have 606 00:49:36,039 --> 00:49:40,000 people complaining all the times we are improving this kind of work. Okay, 607 00:49:40,039 --> 00:49:45,079 so these are phptwols or visual studio and visual studio code, yes for just 608 00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:50,400 and we just did a code right which is fun because we uh we started 609 00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:55,039 PHP twols for resal studio like ten something years ago, which is actually a 610 00:49:55,119 --> 00:50:00,320 part we just we just took a part of the compiler from philaner MM and 611 00:50:00,559 --> 00:50:06,639 use it and use it for for this intelligence for revision studio, and then 612 00:50:06,800 --> 00:50:12,800 then we update it to dot Net standard, created newgate packages from it, 613 00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:19,719 and used compilation to native code and made it an extension for regis to the 614 00:50:19,800 --> 00:50:23,000 code out of the box awesome. So we didn't have to rewrite it to 615 00:50:23,559 --> 00:50:29,079 to type script to JavaScript or because we just did the code is in JavaScript. 616 00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:32,360 Nice, and we just took C sharp and move it just like that 617 00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:37,960 and boom we we had intelligence. What also means you can maintain it between 618 00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,960 the two code base it's one code base, yeah, exactly. We have 619 00:50:42,039 --> 00:50:45,599 one set of tests. We have one code base and one place going to 620 00:50:45,599 --> 00:50:50,199 show up in the other. Right, Yeah, that's that's great about it. 621 00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,480 And then we have third integration for regis to the code in browser, 622 00:50:54,320 --> 00:51:00,679 which is all those things compiled as a web assembly. Jeez, that's crazy. 623 00:51:00,800 --> 00:51:05,239 That's awesome. So we really we really have just one code base and 624 00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:10,119 it's running everywhere my coos Linux, Windows, which studio code everywhere. And 625 00:51:10,159 --> 00:51:14,880 this is because dot net. Yeah, it's because I'm dot net. Yeah, 626 00:51:15,079 --> 00:51:17,119 it's because we are working with dot net since version one point. Oh 627 00:51:19,199 --> 00:51:23,719 and we just know know some stuff. Yeah, it gives us that portability. 628 00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:28,119 Great story, yeah, great story, regulations on all this work. 629 00:51:28,119 --> 00:51:30,719 It's awesome. Absolutely. Oh, thank you very much, and thank you 630 00:51:30,840 --> 00:51:32,920 for spending this hour with us. It's been amazing. Oh, it's been 631 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:37,360 pleasure anytime. Okay, we'll take you up on that and we'll talk to 632 00:51:37,400 --> 00:52:02,360 you, dear listener next time. I'm dot net Rocks dot net Rocks is 633 00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,360 brought to you by Franklin's Net and produced by Pop Studios, a full service 634 00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:13,519 audio, video and post production facility located physically in New London, Connecticut, 635 00:52:13,559 --> 00:52:19,480 and of course in the cloud online at pwop dot com. Visit our website 636 00:52:19,480 --> 00:52:24,480 at dt n et r ocks dot com for RSS feeds, downloads, mobile 637 00:52:24,480 --> 00:52:29,760 apps, comments, and access to the full archives going back to show number 638 00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:34,000 one, recorded in September two thousand and two. And make sure you check 639 00:52:34,039 --> 00:52:37,920 out our sponsors. They keep us in business. Now go write some code 640 00:52:37,440 --> 00:52:39,360 CE next time we got