Loop host Radio. We welcome to Open Minds Radio with Alejandro Roja. Open
Minds Radio is the UFO news authority presenting evidence and the latest news regarding the
UFO phenomena. Here's your host, Alejandro Rojas, and you're listening to Open
Minds Radio. Thank you very much for doing so. By the way,
we have a great show today. We have Nick Redburn and I've never had
him on the show actually before, so it's great to have him for the
first time. I've met to and we've never been able to coordinate, and
we still don't know one hundred percent if we'll be able to cortinate. I
mean, everything's set up. I just talked to him. He's willing,
he's ready. But since we're doing it live, you never know what can
happen, and that's what we're going to do. We usually, actually very
often, we pre record these shows, but this one is going to be
live, so hopefully everything goes okay. We tried to pre record, but
this big storm in Texas, all hell broke loose in Texas right when we
wanted to record this spectacular interview with Nick so and because of the holidays and
the turkeys and everything, we ended up having to do it live, which
is going to be exciting. And if for some reason you're not aware of
who Nick Redfurn is, and some of you may not, He's written quite
a few big books on this field, one on contact ees, on Men
in Black, on Roswell. He does a lot of cryptozoological type of stuff.
In fact, he's got a book called Memoirs of a Monster Hunter that
sounds quite scary. So we'll be talking a lot about this. I love
the contacty subject, and we've talked about the contacts of the fifties, those
crazy guys that used to go around and do wild and crazy stuff talking to
aliens, and some of them, you know, allegedly took pictures and videos
of UFOs and these aliens. So we're gonna ask Nick what he thinks about
them. And the reason why I'm particularly interested in what Nick has to say
because he also has kind of a controversial idea about UFOs and their origins in
the first place. So we'll talk to Nick about how he got into this
crazy, crazy build and how he came to his crazy crazy ideas. We
although I think his ideas are very interesting and possibly right on point, and
he happens to have an accent as really because he's swum across the poem as
they say, so Harry Potter Lands, he's very popular. So we'll talk
more about that coming care but before that, we're going to talk about the
news. And I did want to mention, of course, the UFO Congress,
which is like February, we're going to have a lot of cool speakers.
Maybe when Jason, our news correspondent, comes on, we'll talk more
about that, and let's just get to him right now. Every day on
Open Minds and on our Twitter, and remember the UFO Daily News Twitter,
we are tweeting and following up on news at UFO headlines from across the world.
And every week we bring in the best UFO correspondent that money can buy,
and that is Jason McClellan. You pay him and he'll do anything for
a buck, and so we gave him a couple bucks and he comes and
does the news for us. So it's great. Hello Jason, Hello mister
Landro, and hello everyone. News bread for Monday, November twenty eighth,
twenty eleven. A reason articles published by Space Daily state quote, most scientists
think that we are not alone in the universe. But as why have recently
explained, most of these scientists are focused on Earth like slilists as the best
candidates for finding extraterrestrials birth life planets are extremely rare in comparison to the number
of total planets in the universe, and with scientists focusing only on these few
planets, the extremely narrow search overlooks so many of the worlds that could be
home to extraterrestris of civilizations. That is why a team of scientists recently proposed
a wider set of criteria with planets that could support life. This team of
astrobiologists proposed two new planetary rating systems that could help widen the search for extraterrestrial
life. The researchers just ranking class on both and Extraterrestrial Similarity Index VSI and
in broader Planetary Ability Index a PHI. Why aren't explains quote. The first
index looks at how close the planet is to Earth in mass, temperature,
and composition, while the second is based on whether or not it possesses more
exotic chemistries, liquids, and energy sources than found on our planet. Alien
life could be based on elements other than carbon require liquids other than water and
gain energy through means other than sunlight end quotes. Able Mendez at the University
of Puerto Rico and Ourcibo is one of the co authors of the proposed rating
system. He explains, quote, we are trying not to be geocentric calculating
planetary habitability independence of liquid water in quotes which he supposed rating system was published
in the journal Astrobiology on November twenty first. While Hundra, this is something
that you and I have been mentioning week after week after week when we talk
about the Kepler Telescope and all the efforts to search for extraterrestrial life, and
you know, we point out that we're operating, we being the scientists doing
this stuff up in space, NASA and the life are looking for Earth or
life as we know it, and how big the universe is the reasoning that's
the biggest we think it is there. We have no idea what other life
could be out there. We have ideas, but not all life. And
we're basically it all off what we know what life is on Earth. So
by looking at all of these other worlds up there, there's so many bizarre
alien planets and we passed them by very quickly. If we say, oh
it's too hot, well doesn't have water. But now thanks to these scientists,
they're re evaluating that. Yeah, I think these guys are coming up
with more scenarios. They're widening the scope a little bit. It's meat that
they're talking about it and thinking of about it. I think that you know,
they're getting somewhat creative as opposed to the small scope, like you said,
kind of being unimaginative and looking for our perspective of what life is like
here on Earth. But I think you know what's funny about this is that
there's until we find something and find many different types of life out there,
we have absolutely no idea. So no doubt that because it's such a legling
science, I mean, because we haven't found like yet at least they haven't
in their official capacities, that it'll look a lot different when it's really rolling
than it does now, and perhaps efforts should be conflentrated more on the bodies
closer to Earth, where we could actually do something with what we find.
I mean, things have been passed over before move mars. I mean,
we're planets that once we're just kind of blampd at are now being evaluated because
we're now finding new things that indicate water was before we're just looking for standing
surface water. Yeah, and I still have never explained I don't know about
you. I've never why we really go back to the Moon so much.
I understand going to Mars, which is great, we have the bigger rover
going out there, but all of this effort. You know, we had
the first space lab, which was you know, trash and they let it
burn into the atmosphere, and we have the Space Station which has had you
know, kind of limited access to scientists. A lot of it's been defense
stuff. We could have all of this effort if it was focused at the
Moon. I mean we'd be up there mining away, we would be at
the pools where they think there might be water. I mean, there could
be a lot more to find at the Moon, and instead we're passing it
up and we're going to Mars and now other countries. I mean, China's
going to be able to have a base on the Moon before we are,
the way things are looking at right now. So yeah, we're could have
missed out. China's going to be playing with some moon monkeyss from and we're
going to be with our little rover in Mars. We talked about that before
and I'm sure I meany of our listeners that that same question. It makes
absolutely know such why on their plenty of conspiracy theories to have to go around
for everybody with that one. But yeah, it's such a bizarre concept that
there it is the closest body to Earth, so we could get to the
easiest. It's not that easy to get to the Moon, but we can
do it. So to just abandon that and then focus on other things that
are kind of not achievable with our current technology is Yeah, I'm kind of
bizarre where. I don't where did the space station get us? I mean,
sure, everybody you can definitely see the benefit and kept learn now and
in the hubble, But really, you know what amazing discoveries have we had
on the space station that it's still kind of hanging out. Yeah, I
think that's pretty impressive. Yeah, piece of space junk hasn't hasn't brought it
down yet. I think it would be cool if we had that thing on
the mood based Alpha. That'd be pretty cool, and they need to work
on it. I don't know, Bigelone needs to uh yep, quit camping
out and move based. Bigelo's get a move on. Well, let's get
it to another story, Lejandro. Residents of Rippon. I should ask my
friends and wis constant if it's Rippon or Ribbon. I think it's rip Home,
so I think it's Americans. Probably stay up Rippon to French who established
it, Probably stay Okay, we'll go with Ribbon. Residents of Ribbon,
Wisconson, b UFOs, and the nice guy. On November sixteen, according
to Rippon's press quote, suddenly everything rumbles, which caused residence towards the sky
where they saw a strange glowing light that lit upright and then faded out in
twoquence. Ripping Police Chief Dave Leckowski claims he witnessed the event, but that
it was military jets. He described quote was a screaming jet going over us
Greenlay County Chief Deputy Mark Kuski said there were no reports of UFOs and his
jurisdiction that night, and that representatives from the Wisconsin Air National Guard claimed the
Guard was flying missions over Rippon at the approximate time of the sightings on November
sixteenth, but a video is supposed to be of the same event shows covering
lights in the sky, fading out then turning on again. The objects in
the video don't appear to be screaming military jets. So while the military has
taken credit for the incident, this video doesn't appear to support their story or
the witness accounts. Yeah, sounds like an interesting, exciting and it sounds
like a story that we hear frequently with sightings that happened over a populace.
We've have many witnesses and then made or because of the response is you get
the military claiming responsibility or providing an explanation, but it doesn't quite fit with
what people saw. And this case, you on the video, it doesn't
show screaming military jets doing by it. Yeah, and then you have a
police officer and a lot just like you know, sometimes they want to just
write things off too. Just like last week with our guests we talked about
saying that youfhone cops came out and said it was a star. So yeah,
Unfortunately people blow these things off a little too quickly sometimes. And I
will point out that certainly, you know, I'm not saying that the police
or the military in the case are intentionally lying. You know, there can't
the multiple incidents on the same night, and you know we saw that very
light. They were multiple things in the sky that night, so you'd have
different stories. So just because one person that I saw this and somebody else
has the video that showed something else that the men a person's lying. You
didn't see what they said. Like Steubenville where there were jets in one area
and then there was a siding in another area, and then through FAA radar
reports, the move On investigators demonstrated that it appeared that some of those jets
broke off from the routines that they were carrying out in another location to kind
of go by where the sightings were, presumably to check out what it was
that was being reported or gone on radar, and which is what witnesses said.
They said they saw the uf and they said they saw jets fly by
soon after so and everything that the witnesses had reported in this case, yets
and the UFO four out and were confirmed by the radar reports. And we
also see this a lot with incidents that are claimed to be a Chinese lanterns
by a second party. We have the witnesses come forward and tell the behavior
of the light Luke sky and things they saw, and then you know,
days later you'll hear a group come forward and say, oh, that was
up. We were having a party with realyship lanterns. But you know,
the wind's testimonies. In these cases, you have descriptions of things changing altitude
rapidly and changing shape and size and color and different things that don't exactly match
behavior of Chinese lanterns. It's stuff. I mean, I've seen video of
something that's round and red flying around in the sky and a tip's around super
quick. It was following people's got it, and it was when it was
closed, it more like a six feet tall thing. Video of this thing.
It was getting super bright and super dark, and it fits the description
of a Chinese lantern because it's drowned and red. But it certainly wasn't right.
And so if there was someone floating some Chinese lanterns that light night,
oh that was just me. And they may think that, oh those people
were pulled with little did they know or did they witness you know, this
other amazing object flying around and maybe we're seeing that more and more with the
stunt planes too. Yeah, well it seems like there's more of that,
especially Chinese lanterns. There's more of that. I saw them in my town,
which was kind of cool and separate from the ones that we launched.
And I don't know about step planes, there's a lot of that. There
seems to be more of the parachooters with the flares than there used to be.
And of course radio control planes with LEDs and tights with LEDs O the
LED technologies, a lot of that. Yeah, that's one. A little
bit of Hollywood news here, director of at least Scott's highly anticipated film Prometheus,
who was apparently partially inspired by the writing of Swiss author Eric Bondanikin.
According to The Hollywood Reporter, Scott explains, NASA and the Vatican agree that
it is almost mathematically impossible that we can be where we are today without there
being a little holf along the way. That's what we're looking at in the
film at some of Eric Wondanikin's ideas of how did we humans come about.
Wondanakin is known for his books like Chariots of the Gods and God from Outer
Space, which delivered his ancient astronaut theory, an idea that suggests extraterrestrials in
contact with ancient civilizations on her and made perhaps be responsible for starting the first
civilizations on her. Wondanican frequently appears on the Popular History Channel program Ancient Aliens.
Prometheus was originally planned as a prequel to the Alien movie franchise. Screenplay
was reworth though, and the movie will now reportedly occupy both the theme general
universe as the Alien movies won't be directly related to those films. Is scheduled
for a twenty twelve vidas. So it's funny though, because now they're saying
the aliens from Alien are going to be in there, So it really and
it happens before, so it's really a pre quill it's turning out to even
though they said it with him, it's kind of morphed, but I'm so
excited about it. And it's funny that it's top of stitching and he he
pretty much adopted the ancient Adien's idea. You know, he's are vandemikin.
But what did I say, Oh yeah, sch vandanakn and uh he you
know, has pretty much come out really stotton seddey, and I believe that
there'll you know, this is a real thing that happened, this Acadian Paul
theory, which is kind of cool. And I don't know if you noticed
this. If you guys haven't seen the pictures, check out the links on
open my TV and they're you can go see the pictures because they look really
cool. And one of the pictures has this big human shape carving, very
similar to the picture that the Mexican uh, the Mayan documentary documentary. Yeah,
that's exactly what I thought too. Yeah, it's a large head,
cars and stone. It must have been inspired by it. It definitely was
inspired by Olmec or some Mayan type of thing because it's a flat bace and
but it's this real big carved space. Pretty cool. I'm really excited about
this movie. Yeah, I mean it's gonna be huge. There's been so
much hype about this and very little information release. Yeah, the big talking
about it then the idea even started. Yeah, they're being very secretive when
it's supposed to launch, you know, mid two. Okay, so we
got some time. Well. The UFO Science and Consciousness Conference was held over
the weekend in Johannesburg, South Africa. The conference featured presentations on a variety
of eat related topics from thirteen speakers, including most of interesting Laura Eisenhower,
the great granddaughter of White Eisenhower. She spoke about art technology being used to
spend the Earth's population and Michael's Slender, who organized the conference, told attendees
that quote, all the governments in the world are puppets controlled by extraterrestrials,
and that the South African government had been one of the most important puppets to
these extraterrestrials because of the country's richness in gold and diamonds. The theory of
gold hunting extraterrestrial isn't new, kind of similar to well, a lot of
people have said this, and there's a lot written about it, and even
Stephen Hawking with his wonderful statements sort of support this notion that then extraterrestrials would
come and take our resources and wipe us up. Yeah. Thank But evidence
that there's evidence to suggests that there is more gold elsewhere in space than on
Earth. Yeah, for example, on the asteroid Aeros euros Uh, there
is more aluminum, gold, silver, zink in other base and precious metal
and have ever been excavated in history or ind could ever be excavated from the
upper layers of the Earth's crust. Whoa, that's just a one asteroid and
not a very large one at that. There are thousands of asteroids out there,
and that's according to a statement from the BBC in nineteen ninety nine.
Yeah, so with that in mind, we don't have anything on this planet.
So yeah, couldly in comparison to what's out there. Maybe they would
argue that they don't have these hairless monkey animals they can save to extract the
gold for their mommos. There be rock, that's true. If they could
shoot them with their lasers and then pick up the gold, you have you
have an army of people to do things for you. Yeah, so that
could be the possible argument. But interesting that you know, Africa should have
their first conference. It's it was slated as the first UFO conference. Is
this first? Yeah, and it was. It was like a pretty good
and they went straight to the fringe type of staff from all the headlines I
thinking, and there were a lot of them. Yeah, it was definitely
pushing out the fringe. But unfortunately it didn't seem to have the that the
mega conferences such as the UFO Congress have no I if you can call it
the the uf the world it is. The UFOLD is definitely mega conference.
Yeah, definitely so but when you're just starting, you know, fit of
steam and keep rolling and uh yeah, and you know what, even I'm
glad these guys uh had their conference go off this past weekend. That's great,
and I hope he continues. I mased on. You know, a
lot of the stories that we've covered from this year and last year, I
would really like to see Australia get theirs off. Yeah, they were,
they were getting closer. They were going to get some government funding for it,
and they lost the funding and I haven't heard any more about them,
but a lot of interesting things out of Australia. I think Australian conference would
be really du Yeah. In other countries, a lot of conferences would be
cool. England, I think they were they were going to have one and
then it kind of I don't think it's happening anymore. The people who do
the UFO magazine now there, but yeah, they have a couple so but
I was reading you know what Nick rope Pope wrote about the UFO Congress last
year that you posted. I think you tweeted that, or or Maureene did
and got a lot of cool stuff to say, and he was kind of
the same, hoping that they could have a conference. The UFO Congress is
out there, so it'd be cool to have the big conferences, you know,
all over the world, which hopefully would help inspire them some more communication.
You know, I wrote this Chinese upology story for the upcoming magazine about
their recent sightings and stuff, and that's one thing it would be nice,
is if we can have more contact with the Chinese or you know, we've
written about the Russians, more contact to talk back and forth and cover each
other's stories and feed each other information and help each other out. That'd be
so great. You're right, I mean, we might I talk about this
a lot. There's so many amazing researchers in China that would be fantastic to
have an opened eye a lot with them. Our buddy Rank sitch out that
we've gotten to talk to them, but we love them just the same.
We do. Yeah. Well, on the topic of conferences, we have
another one to talk about here. UFO investigative Journalists. Kaula Harris is pretty
a conference. She said, we'll highlight women in apology. Those involved in
the field of eupology have historically been predominantly male, and therefore UFO conferences have
had predominantly male attendees. Paula Harris is hoping to change that with her women's
UFO symposiums. As she explained to The Uffington Post, women are not on
the forefront of many UFO conferences. It's kind of an old boys club.
Women's UFOs Oposium will take place May nineteen, twentieth, twenty twelve in Glen
Rose, Texas, near the town of Stephenville, the site of the well
publicized UFO sidings in two thousand and eight. And while all the speakers of
this conference are women, men are certainly welcome to his end. Yeah,
that's really exciting. I think that's great that she's going to be doing that,
and that she's going to have the daughter of Kenneth Arnold. That is
really that's as time speaking about Kenneth Arnold and talking about other sightings that he
have, not just the one that he's known for. Yeah, right,
that he had others sidings. And she said she's going to write a story
of this interview for the magazine for our magazine Open Minds, so that's going
to be that's I think. I love that she's putting together this women's one
to just kind of, you know, because they always seem to be the
minority in these conferences because there aren't as many researchers. But it's cool to
have them highlighted. There's some great women doing some incredible stuff out there.
I think that you know, Betty who we talked to last week, that's
cool. She's written her book and it's a different perspective, you know,
her dealing with her husband as opposed to hear a lot about husbands dealing with
their wives in this field. So it's really cool. I think it can
open it up and hopefully make some of the wives of the husbands be more
open and you know, hopefully make women feel more comfortable to be involved with
this field. I'm very proud to say that the strong majority of the speakers
at the conference have been just on this radio show. That's right. Then
there are better that's right, and they're cool. Leads are good, and
Romani's wife is going to be one of the speakers. That's really exciting because
I think our radio show is about the only outlet she's had to really speak.
She's because people don't invite her. They invite Stan And that's why I
like to have her in the un because I think her perspective is is really
interesting because she's a witness and she's a credible witness. So it is her
book out here, I don't think so she's written her own book. I
think it'll be out by then, but I think it's finished and it's in
the process of being published or however they're doing that, and I don't have
to listen in front of me that I remember Carol Rossin was speaking at that's
home, Ye, Carol Rods And of course that involved with Stephen Bill will
be Angela Joiner. Angela Joiner and she's getting a special award which is really
cool. And yeah, you're the news guy, you're supposed to have the
list. It's on the video for people watching the video when they watch this
on YouTube, they can see the list. But we also have the information
on our website of the mind's on TV. Yeah, but congratulations, Paul.
I think this is a wonderful idea and it's something I will definitely plan
to attend, even though I am a one of these old boys, good
old boy. I'm a good old boy. Now she's could be a good
old boy. That's true, all Von Smith. If we've had on the
show recently, mean, we've had Carol Rosin Amy Sparrow, we're good friends
with her, but we haven't had her on the show. And I didn't
know that she had stuff to say, So that's awesome. I'm interested to
see what she has to say. She's involved and she helps out in the
LA area. And then Tracy Austin Peters who mostly does ghost stuff in Las
Vegas. Right, so, but she used to host actually the move On
Symposians and she's a really neat lady. In fact, her husband before he
moved to California, because she used to do a TV show out of California.
He was in Colorado. I think he was the state director of moufund
in Colorado for a while. Yeah, really cool people, so pretty exciting.
We should have her on the show, Yeah, we should. I
know. I talked to her not too long ago too, and she mostly
does ghost stuff, but I haven't thought about She's interviewed a lot of people
on UFO, so that would be really interesting. What's the pump on to
you? Up there. No, well, I did what she's going to
be speaking at out of the UFO conference, and I don't think they have
those details yet. Yeah, I'm sure she's got plenty today. Right,
She's done quite a lot. But I'm also interested in her ghosto. But
that's cool if they have her. I didn't know that she had been involved
with the new fund. Yeah, she was a host. I mean John
Greenwalt has been the host for a long time, but she was as in
between the one year and that was and she was great. It was a
lot of fun because she had a great She's I can't remember Australian or English,
but because unfortunately Tess Americans and I apologize for my Australian and British friends,
but we can't always tell all the difference and I am so sorry.
No, we're not good at picking that. Ugh. Yeah, well a
longo. That is it for the news for today. Remember to check out
all these stories and tell me more at open mind dot tv, your source
for UFO. We waited news. I'm Jason mcfowen, your Open Mind News
corresponding and you have been briefed back to you, mister. All right,
thank you, Jason, So All of these stories you just talked about,
of course, can be found on the website open minds dot tv, and
you can see the pictures and stuff that we talked about. And I think
we've covered all the stories that are on there pretty much this time. Sometimes
we talked about a couple afterwards. But let's go ahead and try to bring
up mister reg Vernon. What we're going to do is we're going to dial
him, so you'll hear some dial music and then we'll have him come on
and let's do some dialing music by up do do do do do do?
Were dialing La la la do do do do do? Ba? Up?
Hello? Hello, can you hear me? Yes? Second? Okay,
great, Nick, how are you? I'm doing good? Thanks, Hell
and Josie going very good. It's great to have you on. I'm excited
to talk to you. Well. Thanks having me on. I appreciate it.
Thank you. Yeah. So what I wanted to talk about first was
sort of your cool how this all started for you. I've never heard story
a story about how you got interested in the paranormal on, how you kind
of started this crazy journey. All right, are you ready to go?
Yeah, We're good to go. You're on live and we are a one,
all right, cool. Well, basically what happened was that my dad
was in the British Royal Air Force. He worked on radar, and this
was during the what was called national service national services like the English or was
the English equivalent of the draft in the same way you know, there's no
draft in America. Now there's no national service in England. But back when
my dad was sort of eighteen nineteen, he was drafted into the military and
he chose to go into the Royal Air Force. He had an interest in
aircraft and even to this day he actually works as as a guide at a
Royal Air Force museum in England called our AF Cosford. He sort of gives
tours and things like that. So he chose the Royal Air Force and worked
on radar and he trained in radar. Basically, this was the height of
the Cold War, and of course, you know, everybody thought there was
going to be some sort of confrontation with the Russians, so you know,
it actually wasn't that sort of like a relaxed, easy draft. You know,
everybody was really highly trained because they thought war was coming. And my
dad worked, as I said, on radar, and he was involved in
three UFO incidents, or rather he could call it one incident that occurred over
three nights in September nineteen fifty two at the height of a NATO operation called
main Brace. And what happened was that both pilots and the radar in the
air and the ground based radar personnel reported seeing these or tracking these objects on
the radar, and the pilots seeing these strange balls of light in the sky.
Again, first thought was it was the Russians. So aircraft more aircraft
were scrambled to try and intercept them, couldn't get close to them, and
eventually the pilots returned to base because they literally running out of fuel. As
I said, this went on over the course of like seventy two hours something
like that, and eventually everybody was taken into a room, everybody who was
involved, and was told, you know, you won't talk about this,
this is sort of national security issues. And my dad didn't tell me till
I was like about thirteen or fourteen, and so that sort of got me
interested in UFO's not just because you know, the story had come from my
own dad, but because he was also trained in the military to work on
radar and understand, you know, the difference between picking up like a solid
object on the radar screens versus you know, like a shadow of a return
from a cloud or something like that, which can happen on occasion. And
when I finished school, you know, I was one of these kids who
I didn't do very well at school. I was pretty much useless with everything,
and I didn't know what I wanted to do. And I went down
what in England's called the job center one day and I was like sixteen or
seventeen, and turned out they had an opening on a music and fashion and
entertainment magazine in the town I was living at the time. It was called
Zero the magazine. And I thought, well, you know, this sounds
like a cool job. It sounds like the sort of don't sound like a
real job. You know, we've got to go to work and wear a
suit and tie and be told what to do, right, more relaxed and
chilled out and whatever, you know. And I was getting paid to do
like gig reviews and record reviews and all that sort of stuff, and you
know, and it was fun. And I thought, well, you know,
I've enjoyed sort of getting into the world of writing with not much of
an academic background behind me really, and then I thought, well, why
not try now and combine not exclusively, because I'd still do a lot of
sort of music stuff and entertainment stuff, you know, as well. I
don't just sort of write about paranormal stuff. But what happened was that I
thought, well, you know, I've got this sort of two year background
on this magazine in journalism, and I've got this interest in UFOs and paranormal
stuff. Why not try and combine the two. And so that's basically what
I did. You know, I had held down sort of regular jobs for
sort of five or six years, turing sort of mid twenties, and then
sort of took the plunge and thought, you know, it's like one of
those now or never situations, you know what I mean, where it was
kind of like, well, I'll give it a try and if it works
out, it works out. If it doesn't, then I'll fall back and
go on writing about you know, fire service coming to try and get somebody's
cat out of the tree or whatever, you know what I mean, right,
and just you know, just continue on writing, but on whatever subject.
So that's sort of what really kicked me off. It was this combination
of hearing this story from a dad when I was a kid, and then
from there, you know, getting involved in journalism and thinking about combining the
two. Mm hmm. Yeah. Wow. An amazing story that your father
had there, because, like you said, you know, they're on alert
back then, they're really freaked out about the Russians. Yeah, I mean,
this is you know, it's a long time ago. I mean,
my dad's eighteen next year. He still talks about this and still remembers it,
you know, and to his credit, you know, he doesn't speculate
or overspeculate on what it was. He just said, you know, we
picked up something and he said, I can tell you for shure, back
in fifty two, there was no way we were flying things that could travel
at that speed and perform you know, almost like left and right hand turns
at you know, fantastic speeds, he said. And the the movements,
you know, it was clear these things were under some sort of intelligent controls.
Now, when was it that you moved to the United States about eleven
years ago something like that. Although my wife's from Texas, we lived just
outside Dallas, just like about fifteen minute drive from Dallas. Twenty minute drive
from Dallas. Although she's was born in Texas, act she grew up in
the Cayman Islands. So we got like a real international relationship. I suppose
we live in Dallas. She grew up in the Cayman Islands. I grew
up in England and just outside Dallas. And yeah, I've been over a
sort of or lived here I should say, about eleven years. I first
came over about thirteen or fourteen years ago for a conference something like that.
Okay, Now I'm curious because these days, you know, Britain news is
bully. You at those stories the Sun, the Daily Mirror, the Daily
Telegraph, you know, even the Guardian writes stories. It's a big topic
that you see a lot of, you know, and others too, because
you know, we're covering new stories in England all the time. They seem
to have almost as many as we have here in the States. So I
know it's a big deal now. But what was it like growing up where
people open to the idea of UFOs, you know, prior to something out
here. Well, I mean that's a good question, because there's absolutely no
doubt that in terms of the British media, stuff's definitely changed in the last
significantly changed the last five years. But there's been a definite trend probably over
the last nine, ten eleven years, and a lot of it actually coincided
with when the government started to release and declassify some of its biles, which
was showing, you know, that the government did have an interest and that
there were credible reports from pilots, military people, et cetera, and you
know, a substantial number of very good reports from the general public. And
I think what happened was that the media began to realize, you know,
this wasn't just as they previously perceived it, Like you know, the typical
approach that the media takes all around the world that if you investigate UFOs,
you're kind of weird, you know, and you have no life or whatever.
You know what I mean. I think we're all just kind of one
step away from a serial killer or whatever. Yeah, But I think what
happened was that when the media sort of realized that we'll hang on a minute,
you know, the British Ministry, Defense, the Royal Air Force,
you know, and friends and colleagues in the US or France and Germany wherever
were also releasing files. They began to realize that, yeah, when you
weave your way through the hoaxes and misidentifications, et cetera, et cetera,
were left with a small percentage that are really good reports. And I think,
you know, to their credit, at least to a degree, you
know, the media did change its approach, and yeah, they still have
this slightly condescending, humorous approach, but equally they do take the subject far
more seriously than they did, and I think given out of the situation was
sort of fifteen years ago and further back than that. You know, any
advance has got to be a good advance, and of course it brings more
publicity, excuse me, more publicity for the subject, which hopefully encourages more
people to come forward with their accounts, which will, you know, lend
more support to the idea that you know, this phenomenon exists, right,
Yeah, some of the papers I can think of, you know, especially
recently, stories and what with Shire and Trapshire and Eastbourne are some of the
towns where and some of the smaller local papers where they take these UFO reports
very seriously. They don't really make fun of it. They tell it pretty
straight to interviews with the witnesses, and it's pretty cool. Yeah, I
think you actually get that. I mean yeah, I mean I know that
from working in just general journalism that you know, if there's breaking stories in
the town you live in, you know, the little local newspaper wants to
cover it. You know, whether it's a murder, a car accident,
you know, truck goes off a bridge, whatever, you know, it's
big news because it's at a local level. And I think when it's something
that's a mystery as well, you know, somebody sees a UFO or somebody
sees bigfoot or whatever. You know, it's it's one of these things where
the media like to cover it, you know, because it's an entertaining story
and it's an interesting story, and it's a local one as well. So
yeah, curious now that you see that you've seen in the two worlds.
You know, you've lived here in the States for quite some time, Texas
of all places that you've seen, you know, real Americans and and what
American mic is like thinking back when you grew up because you were you know,
your father telling you these incredible UFO stories you being into the subjects.
Did you bring up the subject with your friends when you were young and how
did they react any different than the US think Americans would have reacted? Not
really. I mean it's like even today, you know, if I go
back to England and you know, I mean my mates go down the pub
and watch the football, you know, the sort of soccer as it's called
over here, you know, on the big screen, right, you know,
it's not like we're all sort of talking about UFOs or Area fifty one.
You know. It's kind of like I you know, I have a
deep passion for UFOs and I write about it, but I also like to
have a life away from it, you know, and most of my friends
aren't interested in it. But that doesn't bother me because we have a lot
of other interests that we share anyway, you know, and it's cool to
just hang out with the beer and talk about who's going to win you know,
the cop this year in the football or whatever, or you know what
everybody's been doing and who's got married or you know who's done this or whatever.
You know, So for me, it's never been an issue or you
know, some sort of dark secret that I don't discuss with people. You
know, people into it, that's cool if they're not. You know,
I've got plenty of other things that interests me to talk about as well,
you know. So yeah, but it's you know, I mean I've been
as I said, I've been into it since as a kid. You know.
Most of my friends know that. But you know, some of them
are interested. Someone like to know what I'm up to. You know.
Others are interesting because they know me as a friend, but they're not necessarily
interested as such in the phenomena. You know, it's and that's cool.
You know, it doesn't have any bearing on friendships. It's just you know,
somebody likes listening to rock music, someone likes reggae, you know whatever.
You know, it's a ye, it could be boring if we're all
into the same stuff, I guess, so, oh yeah, they'd be
real boring. But and likely you're into the law and rock and roll,
so you can cover it all. Yeah, exactly. So I wanted to
talk a little bit about your perspective the phenomena because you have some unique perspectives
and I think that you like to which I think is a good thing personally,
because I've talked about all of the other possibilities, and I feel similar.
But you are certainly like to look in all the possibilities out there.
I like to get your perspective on the what it's able, because we always
need acronyms etch or the extraterrestrial hypothesis. But about some of your other ideas,
what do you think about the eth these days? Well, you know,
I mean, I think I think like most people, when you get
into the UFO subject, I think a lot of people get into when you
are a kid, you know, like a young teenager, whatever. And
it's either often because you've had a sight in which I've never had, you
know, or you have a friend or a colleague or whatever who has what
I did with my dad and you get into it that way, or you
know, you just have to pick up a book and it fascinates you.
There's different ways. But I think when you kind of that age, a
lot of things in life are just black and white, you know, And
it's only when you get older your sort of perceptions I won't say change,
but you just you become more sort of worldly, you know, and know
what's going on, et cetera. And so you know, in that respect.
I think when I first got it, well, I know when I
first got into the subject. You know, for me, it was all
UFO was in nuts and bolts craft, you know, coming from this star
system or that star system. Now, I don't dispute that could be the
case, but I would probably say at least sort of round about my late
twenties onwards, I kind of began to change the views I had, not
as some people think. You know, I don't believe in a genuinely unknown
UFO phenomena, and explain, which is, you know, complete garbage,
I do, you know, I'm just not or not sure. I should
say not convinced, but not sure. It's literally extraterrestrial in the sense we
understand it. And I'll tell what I mean by that. When you you
know, you dig more and more into the complexities of the UFO subject.
One of the things I've found is that you find crossovers between certain aspects of
the UFO subject and other areas of what people might term paranormal stuff supernatural issues,
where you find kind of parallels between alien abduction stories and accounts that you
know, five hundred years ago people would place into the realm of encounters with
goblins and things like this, you know, or demons, you know,
where it seems like the event is kind of similar. The person's paralyzed in
bed, there's this sort of force watching them, et cetera, you know,
and they experience this in time. You know, you have all these
archetypal aspects to it. So what I would say is that there's absolutely no
doubt in my mind today as before, that there's a genuine UFO phenomenon of
unknown origins that is nothing to do with us as the human race. But
whether it's literally extra terrestrial you know, aliens in metal craft coming from points
A to point B, or if it could be like interdimensional extra dimensional,
you know, things like quantum physics are allowing today for the existence of extra
dimensions. I think I think we're dealing personally with something that manifests and interacts
with us from like a far closer point to home than we actually suspect,
and I actually sometimes think it could masquerade as extraterrestrial to kind of camouflage its
real origins. Now you know exactly what that means, what it is,
you know, that's the big question, you know, I always say to
people, even though UFOs exist, you know, sort of sixty four years
after Kenneth Arnal coined the term flying sources know it's the U in UFO still
stands unidentified. You know. The idea it means alien spacecraft is a theory
or a belief system, you know. So my mind, there's no doubt
that there's a UFO phenomenon from somewhere else, But it's the nature of that
somewhere else I'm not entirely sure of, you know. I mean, I
mean, I've investigated cases, for example, UFI encounters where someone's had like
an abduction experience and then a couple of days later in the house they've experienced
like violent poltergeist activity, you know, and it's difficult to sort of reconcile
that with like just the equivalent of you know, NASA's Apollo astronauts coming here
and do you know what I mean? Ye to me, there's something else
going on, you know, And I have a big interest in, for
example, research that's been done into like like how psychedelics can kind of open
you know, portals or doorways to other realms, things like mushrooms, DMT
that sort of thing where you know, you're altering perceptions and it seems to
open a portal where we can interact with entities that you know, some people
would say, well, you know, you're just tripping, and you know
it's just your mind distorted and you know, conjuring up imagery. But a
lot of this imagery is almost like archetypal abduction type experiences. Now, some
the skeptics would say, well, that means abductions are all in the mind.
I don't think that. I think altered states can actually open doorways to
allow us to interact with these entities. And I think that's why thousands of
years ago, you know, the equivalents of abductees and contactees. Back then
we're like shame and you know, people would go up into the mountains and
meditate and they'd encounter or interact with these higher entities. You know, it
wasn't just that they were tripping. It actually was that they had found the
secrets as to how to interact with these higher entities that for the most part
with most people today interact randomly with them. But I could actually provoke the
experience, right, That's what I like about investigators and some of the you
know moveau more investigators. I mean, you work with a group of people.
Great bishop, and you work with Mactoni, who unfortunately has passed away,
who had similar perspectives. But it's also I think you know a lot
of people. It's an area that makes it difficult for science because I agree
with you, there's all this bleedover there is there are these experiences people have
that are internal their mental experiences. And then some of these experiences seem very
similar to paranormal experiences, but they do. Like you said, I agree,
there's there's a phenomena that is external to a person and internal, and
they're more similar than I think we'd like to go. And I think people
don't want to go there because it grazes the water and then you can't have
this, you know, strictly extraterrestrial investigation, and they think science is going
to shy away from that. And I can see it be difficult for scientists
to play in that area. But if that's what's going on, that's what's
going on, and it's just so extremely enigmatic and complicated. No, yeah,
you're absolutely right, And I mean one of the things I would say,
and you know this isn't meant as a criticism of the UFO field,
it's meant as what I see as an accurate observation. I think there are
a lot of people within eupology and keep players in uthology consciously or not,
who Yes, they believe that it's extraterrestrial, but equally they take the view
that you know, from a cynical perspective, the eth and saying what people
want to hear sells books, It gets people into conferences. You know,
I don't say what I think people want to hear. I say what I
think's going on. I put the information out for people to seies. If
they think I'm full of whatever, that's fine. If they gravitate towards it,
that's fine, you know. But I'm not going to say, you
know, what I think people want to hear, because oh, that's going
to sell me another five thousand books, you know, that's right what I
do. Now. I'm not saying most people do that consciously. I don't
think they do. But there is a percentage where for a lot of people,
ufology becomes like a belief system. You know, it's a it's aliens
from Zeta reticuli and they're coming here because their race is dying and they need
our DNA. You know and UFO has been back engineered at area fifty one.
That's kind of the scenario that we're almost led to accept as being true
rather than being led to understand that it's just a theory. And so that's
why, you know, to me, it would be dishonest to me to
lock away in a filing cabinet. All the stories I've got where you know,
things like somebody has poltergeist activity after seeing a UFO, or somebody else
trips on d MT and they have a classic abduction experience. You know,
if it's part of the phenomenon, just because it doesn't sit well in you
know, what this person rights or that person rights, doesn't mean we should
hide it, you know, be in a cabinet because we want to kiss
that person's ass because we want to get on at their conference next year.
Do you know what I mean? Right? No, that's that's to me,
that's a terrible wrong approach. You know, if I if conference organizer
says to me, what do you think about abductions? And I say,
well, you know, I'm not going to sugarcoat it and say I think
it's this or that because I want to speak of their conference. I'm going
to say I think it's connected with this and that, and if you don't
agree with it, you don't want to just speak that's cool, you know,
it's your conference. You know, I kind of you know one of
the films. One of the issues I have with being able to kind of,
you know, adopt one of these ideas and stick to it. That
there's a lot of people saying a lot of difference. There's so many people,
and they all seem great, incredible, and I don't believe all these
people to be Charlatan's suppose we don't talk to Zeta reticulans. But they don't
all have the same story. There's people talking directilions or have stories about REFILM,
but they don't all have the same story. And there are all these
people sure that their story is the only story, but they all can't be
right. And somehow there are a lot you know, these conferences that you
talk will have several of these people, but they're not all saying the same
thing. They're conflicting, and and the people going and attendance will sometimes believe
all of them. But how can you if the stories aren't the same,
Which leads to, like you said, something more complicated. Well, yeah,
I mean, I mean don't get I actually encourage, you know,
I mean, I would love it if somebody put at a conference where let's
say hypothe particularly an abduction conference, and you had somebody talking about, you
know, the whole issue of alien abductions. You had somebody talking about alien
implants, but also you had somebody talking about the idea of things like sleep
paralysis, somebody else talking about how, you know, something like a psychedelic
could open a portal to really to another realm where these entities can interact with
us. I actually really do believe that happens. It would be great if
that could happen. But I just don't see the mainstream conferences going down that
really alternative path, because, as you pointed out before, you know,
it's much of an uphill battle already, particularly if you want to get scientists
involved without suggesting, you know, undergoing some sort of DMT related you know,
altered state. You know, most scientists are going to shy away from
it. And I think most ufologists shy away from it because I think a
lot of them want to be accepted by mainstream science. You know, I
kind of I kind of view me my position as not an upholder of belief
systems or theories, but someone who's just looking for answers. And that's precisely
why sometimes my views on different things have changed over the years, you know.
I mean, I've spoken to some UFO researchers who who clear I won't
name them, he's not my place to name, but who clearly feel uncomfortable
if they have to admit that ten years down the line their views on some
sort of change. It's almost like they view it as they've failed if their
views have changed. Well now, I mean, you know, it's kind
of like, you know, it's it's kind of like if you're thirteen,
you know, and you can't talk to girls, and suddenly at seventeen you
can. You know, people change, you know what I mean. It's
that sort of thing. And you know, if somebody believes that case number
one or case number two involved you know, a secret aircraft in nineteen ninety
seven, but by two thousand and seven they believe it involved a UFO,
and then in two d and twelve they swing back to the whatever. To
me, that's not a problem because we're dealing with an unknown phenomenon and so
the onus and the responsibility is on us to present new data as when as
and when we find it and if it changes our initial perceptions. Well,
to me that we've been honest in saying, well, hey, you know,
yeah, this is what I thought, but there's more data now that's
pushing it down this path. That's one of the things I never really understand
about upology. Why this person is like, oh, he's the guy who
believes aliens crashed at Roswell. He's the guy who thinks the mogul balloon crashed
at Roswell. She's the abduction researcher. That person's the cattle mutilation person who
thinks it's government experiments. That's the person who thinks cattle mutilations are done by
aliens. This is the person who thinks it's the time travelers are coming,
not aliens. This is the person who thinks he's reptilians. I don't understand
why a lot of researchers end up pigeonholed. Why it can't just be the
case that you investigate the phenomenon and you go where it goes, and if
you've used change, we'll put the information out there explaining why. You know,
yeah, I mean, that's that's all good, and it's science.
I mean, there are a lot of scientists who they're sure this theory is
probably what it is. But if there's a scientists have always done scientists have
always done that, and they're always shown to be wrong, you know exactly,
and a good scientists is open to that. We'll say, well I
was wrong. You know, it turned out I was looking this way,
but it went that way. And you know I used to think that this
case, but due to our experience experiments, we've found out that that's not
the case, that this is the case, you know, because things change,
we find out more information, and you've got to go with the data.
Oh well, I can tell exactly why. That is a lot of
them for you. Reputations, you know, it's like, but with scientists
it's not just reputation. It's also getting government grants, university grants, where
they're fearful of losing that. But within euthology, I think it's mainly a
fear of reputation. It's like if you change your view, change your mind,
or you've lost your reputation. Well my view, you don't lose reputation,
but to be to be I don't care about reputations. You know,
people said, well, what about reputation, Well, I say, I
ain't got one. You know, I do what I do. You know
what I mean. If I say what I say, it's I don't.
I don't really, I don't care it diging a hole and falling into it.
You know, it's like it's not even on you know, it's on
the radar. I don't. I don't feel like I have to apologize or
whatever about having this view of that view, or this reputation or whatever.
You know, it's just it's just what I do, right, And I
know you're, like you said, you're very open to other people having their
views and working out things from their area. And today I agree with you
one hundred percent. I try to have a rated people on the show,
and it's great. I want to hear people's ideas and what they think.
I don't dat agree. I mean, I'll give you a good example,
you know, when you talk when you just said about me being open to
other people's views. I mean, you know, I wrote a book a
few years ago, actually seven years ago now about Roswell with the possibility if
it been some sort of sort of dark military experiments. Now, on the
other hand, you have Kevin Randall, who's sort of you know, who
thinks there's a very strong probability I think the Aliens crashed at Roswell. But
you know, me and Kevin are friends, you know, and we don't
let that stand between us. You know, last time I saw Kevin was
at the move On conference last year. You know, we hung out for
the weekend, just our booths, our tables were next to each other.
We're just having a laugh, you know. But we have, i would
say, fairly significantly different views on Roswell. But you know, I don't
feel intimidated or I have to try and change Kevin's point of view. You
know, My view is we're both looking for the truth about Roswell. It's
a fascinating case where clearly the goverments, you know, the government's stance or
its explanations just don't hold water or in terms of balloon, don't hold hot
air, so to speak. And so we're both looking for answers. But
you know, I don't feel the need to be defensive or you know,
oh, well you're wrong and I'm right. No, you know, we're
both looking for answers, and you should be able to do that and work
well together even if you don't necessarily agree on anything. But unfortunately, within
upology you don't often get that. You know, people get hostile if you're
against what they believe. And I've never really got that. You know,
It's like, we're all we're dealing with a mystery. If we're dealing with
a mystery, well, you know, be open to the fact that it's
a mystery. You know, it's not something that you've solved and everybody else
is wrong. It's a mystery. So let's treated as a mystery. But
let's work together. And if it falls in this camp, it falls in
that camp. One of you is going to be right, one of is
going to be wrong. But if if you're right or wrong, have the
balls to admit to say I got it wrong, but they got it right.
But the most important thing is we solved it, you know what I
mean. Yeah, I hope that that continues in the future, that people
become more open because I know, speaking of Roswell, you know, and
I don't like that being out names either. It used to be that the
Roswell different Roswell guys. You couldn't get them in a room together, refused
to talk to each other, they didn't like each other. But these days
you can do that now, and even though they disagree with each other,
they can all be in the same room. They can and talking and friends.
And now they have a shared history because they've been through all of this
different stuff. You know, they've maybe even been battling each other, but
more than that, so these other government theories that come forward that everybody agrees
is ridiculous or not in some cases. And they've been to several conferences with
each other, and now they see each other on a regular basis. I
like to think that, and I hope that people are starting to get along
better. Well, you know, I mean, I think that does happen.
You know. I don't want to sort of, you know, sort
of painted black and white, because it certainly is. You know. Again,
I think what would be great if if somebody put on a Roswell theme
conference where you know, they had somebody talking about what the military might have
been doing at White Sands in New Mexico, somebody else talking about the definitive
alien angle, somebody else. Maybe it'd be great if you have somebody from
there from the Air Force even talking about the crash test dummies, you know,
and there afterwards have a roundtable discussion Q and A where the audience can
ask questions and it's all out in the open, you know. I think
that would be that would be great, you know, And I don't understand
why there's this sort of hostility of or we don't want that person there because
he believes weird stuff. You know. Yeah, here's a question for you
kind of to put you back. Is then the tempition that went to the
White House about it was very pointedly, of course, extraterrestrial base. What
were your thoughts on that? Well, you know, I mean I don't
mind, you know, being extraterrestrial base, because you know, this was
a petition that you know, was put together, you know, unfair,
you know, and let's give you know, kudos to the person who put
it, you know, the people who put it together, because that they're
actually doing something. They're getting you know, off the couch or whatever and
making a move the I don't have any problem with that. The only problem
I have with things like petitions and petitioning for disclosure and stuff like that is
that I always think it's a little bit naive to believe that just because thousands
or hundreds of thousands even people demand something that people in government are actually going
to listen and act upon it. You know, maybe that makes me cynical,
and it probably does to do a degree, but it's kind of like,
you know, if aliens did crash at Roswell, and despite what some
people have said, you know, I don't rule that out at all.
You know, I think if it wasn't a dark and dubish military experiment,
it was something definitively non human. You know. Again, whether extraterrestrial in
is a dimensional or something, you know, I don't. I don't give
any leeway for like weather balloons and crash the dumbies and Mogul balloons. So
in that respect, you know, if the if the government's deepest and darkest
secret about UFOs is that, yes, aliens really crashed at Roswell and for
whatever reason, they don't want to tell us. You know, if that
is the truth, and it could be even if a million people petition the
governments no disrespect to the people who plan the petition, but if they really
are, if they've got that secret, but it's so deep for a specific
reason, why on earth would they release that information just because somebody put sense
in a petition, right, you know. To me, again, I
don't want to take away the importance of what people are doing or the fact
that they're actually motivated to do it. That is all important stuff. Without
motivation in the subject, it will stagnate and get stale. So we need
that. But on the other hand, we need to look at the history
of government or governments, you know, throughout history. You know, they
want to get elected, they want to get the person's vote, but when
they're in, you know, it's like do what I say, you know,
And I think the issue of actually respond you know, actually releasing the
truth about Roswell because one hundred people, one hundred thousand people want to know.
You know, I probably dropped down in a dead feint. If the
government said, oh, we're going to release the truth about Roswell because fifty
thousand people asked us to, that's not going to happen. You know,
that is not going to happen. You know. It's kind of like somebody.
To me, that's like somebody saying I'm never gonna work because I'm going
to buy the lottery ticket every week and one day I'm going to win it,
you know exactly so and so your point of view and is, and
I agree with you, it's a great effort. It got it gets public
interested, and there are a lot of people who, you know, that's
what they want to see exactly the way it happened happened. But I wouldn't
be fair to say, in your point of view, no matter how well
written it was, even if it wasn't based on extraterrestrials and it was based
on you know, some more really heavy hard nuts and books UFO cases,
that no matter how well it's worth it, no petition coming from the public
is going to have an effect. No, I don't think it will.
And of course the other problem is the other problem, the biggest problem,
one of the biggest, but the other problem is that you know, who
do you send the who are you sending petition to? You said, you
know, to the presidential office basically, which you know they're in if they're
lucky they're in for two terms. You know, they may just be in
for one term. Bear in mind, you know that the president, you
know, isn't sort of a fountain of knowledge on everything. You know,
they rely on information provided by their advisers. Some of these people, you
know, whether they're in the CIA, the NSA, you know, Air
Force Intelligence, they're there for years. You know, you may have a
president who's in power for four years. So in other words, you're sending
it to the White House and by default the presidents who gets his information from
advisors. In other words, the real keepers of the secrets are not the
public face. The public face is the president. The real sort of movers
and shakers and the string pullers are the people behind the scenes. And you
know, it's kind of like we know throughout history, certainly from the Cold
War era onwards, that things have gone on in the intelligence communities that the
elected officials know nothing about. So you know, again there's this sort of
naivety as I see it, that, well, if anybody's going to know,
the White House has got to know. You know, ironically, the
White House hasn't necessarily got to know what happened at Roswell. Know, it
could well be that the secret is so deeply buried and held. In fact,
that's what I actually believed, whatever happened, I think the secret is
actually not known far and wide within the government. I think that the very
fact that it's kept secret is because the number of people who know is actually
probably incredibly small, and they actually choose who to bring into the fold,
if you like, and who not to bring in, and at times,
you know, that may include not bringing in presidents. You know, if
the secret's right, they've confidently got that secret buried so deep that no one
can penetrate it. They may well have the last word on who they let
in on the truth. You know. Yeah, these guys who wrote these
reports, the Air Force, I don't believe necessarily they were just you know,
secret keepers are trying to do a hatchet chop. They could have genuinely
thought they were doing a good job investigating this. I just don't think they
even have access to the information. Well, actually, glad you said that,
because that is my personal opinion, and there aren't many people who take
that view. You know. On the one hand, you have the skeptics
who champion it and say, oh, yeah, finally the Air Force solved
it. On the other hand, you have a lot of pro roswell researchers
and people who say, oh, this is just an evil government report,
you know, right, I agree with you that that is my personal stance
is that, you know, I think what happened is that the Air Force
had been forced for years to deal with Roswell, took the view that probably
something strange did happen, but were baffled by the fact that they'd made sort
of a cursory study of their files and couldn't find anything at all, And
they were getting more and more people knocking on the door, and they were
like, well, enough's enough, you know, we've got to make a
for effort to find stuff. They went looking and actually couldn't find anything at
all. You know, contrary to what a lot of people believe, you
know, all this stuff about Mogil balloons and crash test dummies, these were
theories on the part of the Air Force. They actually didn't. They found
files on crash test dummies and files on Mogle balloons, but nothing's actually tied
Moga balloons and crash test dummies to Roswell. So, in other words,
I actually believe that if this had been a hatchet job or a cover up,
they would have done a better job of actually proving their point. They
would have come up with something, but hey, you know, this proves
it. But by their own mission, they said, well, you know,
we've looked, we haven't found anything, but we think this is what
it is. To me, that does sound more like a best attempt to
solve it rather than some evil bunch of guys trying to hide it. And
I think the irony is, you know, sixty four years after Roswell happened,
the evidence, the body, is the craft, whatever they were,
were sort of shuttled out of Roswell at high speed to somewhere, you know,
whether they whether they're still in the same place or there's like a new
sort of forty fied underground location forum. I don't know, but I think
whoever has access to that material, you know, may I ironically not include
the people and probably didn't include the people who wrote the Roswell reports. You
know, we often, I think we sometimes give governments too much credit.
You know, the idea that you joined the CIA and you're suddenly told about
what happened at Roswell and who killed Kennedy. You know, it didn't work
like that. You know, if you've joined the CIA and you're you know,
you're fluent in Chinese, they're going to put you on analyzing, you
know, listening on Chinese coding messages DFT. And here's how we did it.
Yeah, that that that that doesn't happen. You know, that's just
bizarre. You know, it just doesn't happen. And I think, you
know, people should look more at how government works and how information is withheld,
even from government agencies. And I think I think that applies to the
Roswell report. I don't hold the Air Force at falls at all with those
reports. I think they did their best efforts when faced with a realization that
wow, we've not found anything, but clearly something did happen that wasn't a
weather balloons. Yeah. I think you know, to your point earlier about
the president's you know, even Clinton regarding the same issue, you have both
said, you know, if you looked into it, they did reports,
but he said they could have waited to me. I don't think I would
be the first president that career bureaucrats have kept information from No. And I
think, you know, sometimes I think, you know, it may not
just as I said that it's kept from him. Even his advisors may not
know where the information is. You know, they get their advice from further
advisors, you know, and eventually the book stops with someone. But you
know, it's it's like who knows who sitting on the secret and you know,
when when the lie or the distortion begins, you know, it may
be three uplisers down the line, not just you know, oh yeah,
let's just see the president, you know, and it's all being done in
the White House. You know, it could be three agencies or three people
down the line who are feeding the fake stories or whatever. You know.
Thinking about the same subject, I think in the other day, it could
be that some of this stuff is so buried and so secret, and so
if you know about it or in the loop, there could be many many
projects out there that have been long forgotten and perhaps every player is no longer
with us, you know, boxes like like Inannah Jones, where there's some
sort of artifact with a report, but nobody even remembers it's Derek because all
the people who recovered it work on this secret project, kept it so secret
and they're all dead. Nobody knows it. No, that's right, And
I think, you know, on that same line, and important thing is
that, you know, there's no doubt in my mind that you know,
coming up to Roswell that the government has probably you know, even if the
government wasn't responsible for creating like the Mogul and the crash test dummy stories as
cover stories. I'm pretty sure that whoever's in the know is happy that those
stories are out there, you know, and I'm sure they've encouraged a lot
of confusion over the subject over the years. But the interesting thing is that
when you start spreading confusion and cover stories in the military after twenty thirty years,
forty years, those guys who've long retired and said, well, I
read a file you know that said a Mogil balloon came down to Roswell,
not realizing that was a faked documents, you know, to sort of confuse
the issue even more. In other words, thirty years down the line,
it's not just that everybody's died. It's like with conflicting stories, even the
government doesn't know what it knows and doesn't know which documents are true or which
documents were put out as like a psychological warfare cover story, And somebody may
legitimately go to their grave believing that because they saw a file saying crash test
dummies came down to Roswell. But that's what the bodies were not realizing.
Maybe that you know, somebody was purposefully encouraging maybe even encouraging the air force
to go with that angle. You know that he's light so much, including
to each other and themselves, and nobody knows that too, is anyone.
Yeah, that may be that there could just be like a small you know,
thirty four people who I mean, the the biggest, the biggest irony
could be that if Aliens did crash at Roswell, there could just be like
some underground vault with you know, the remains of a crash UFO six or
seven bodies in frozen storage, and the government and the people in the know
thinking well, we've got this material, What the hell would do we do
with it? You know, they just go in and look at it once
a day, make sure it's still there. They can't tell anybody about it.
It's so advanced they can't even even back engineer. It's all they know
is that they picked something up sixty four years ago that isn't human and it's
a huge albatross around the next because they don't know what to do with it,
so they just bury it and just look at it through the door panel
once and died like whoa you know, yeah exactly. That wouldn't surprise me
if that wasn't the truth of the scenarios. It's cynical and it's kind of
a nineteen eighty view of things or something that's over bureaucracy. But I think
that's entirely possible. I fully agree with that. I did want to ask
you about also because of your view of extraterrestrials and you're open minded this various
different possibilities out there, but also your interesting contact these, which I think
is great because there's a lot of history or some mythology of it's built that
it's getting forgotten, and this is one that the media never picked up on
it, and un let's you know, some of us talk about it who
are aware of it. It's going to get forgotten. And that's all whole
contact era the fifties, which was huge, thousands of people meeting in the
desert in California to see these contact these talks, and all of these people
had in some cases some fairly credible cases of talking with extraterrestrials. What do
you think about the contact ease in that era? Oh, well, I'm
very interested in the whole contact team movement. In fact, actually, in
fact, I wrote a book in two thousand and nine with the with the
stunningly original title of contact Teams. Yet yeah, you know, just so
just so people would know what it was called. Yeah, dumb it down
or whatever. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I mean the contact
team movement. You know, it gets a really bad rap today. You
know, everybody's cooled with abductions and little gray guys with black eyes and huge
heads and you know, stealing DNA and eggs and spurm et cetera, and
missing time because that sounds more credible and scientific, which you know it does.
A lot of people within eupology they're almost kind of embarrassed to deal with
the sort of you know, the long haired space hippie space brother type of
characters of the nineteen fifties. You know, the typical scenario for people listening
who you know might not be fully conversant with the early years of uthology,
you know, contacts hees were people who claimed, I mean chiefly sort of
kicked off in the early fifties, although there are a lot of parallels with
ancient reports and latter day stories, but kicked off chiefly in the early fifties,
where a lot of people, particularly across the US, but also across
the world claimed face to face contact with very human looking aliens often described slightly
shorter than us, are sometimes taller than us, but very often we like
heads of long blonde hair. This is for the men as well, you
know, which wasn't certainly sort of part of the course, you know,
in sort of nineteen fifties America. You know, you definitely look twice if
he saw a guy with the like long blonde hair halfway down his back,
you know what I mean. And you know they would a lot of them
had previous interest in UFOs but felt compelled for whatever reason, you know,
to go out to like remote desert locations in San Nevada or the California desert
and just wait, not knowing why, you know, And then they'd say,
this sort of gleaming flying source would come down, These human almost like
early flower Power equivalent aliens would come out of these craft, and you know,
there'd be this sort of philosophical exchange all about nuclear war and how we
need to disarm our atomic weapons and living peace and harmony. You know.
It very much was like an early sort of equivalent of you know, sort
of the peace movement that came with the you know, Vietnam War protests in
the sixties, but it was, you know, the message supposedly coming from
aliens. Now, for the most part, researchers of the Contact Team movement
sort of place it into two camps. You know, you've got the people
who say, you know, this is just total nonsense. You know,
the idea of aliens coming from wherever, looking just like us, talking like
us, dressing in like pilot's flight suits, long blonde hair, telling us
to disarmaias, and turning up in the you know, New Mexico desert or
the desert of California, and just chatting with people. And then on the
other hand, you have people interpret the stories literally. But I kind of
take a different view, the idea that the experiences I believe were genuine,
and I believe they were genuine experiences with some sort of alien phenomenon. Alien
in the sense of non human, whether alien in the terms of extraterrestrial or
something else, you know, interdimensional whatever, I don't know, but certainly
nonhuman. What I think and what I sort of discussed chiefly my Contact Tees
book was the idea that we're dealing with an intelligence that has the ability to
interact with the human mind and kind of get into our subconscious and what it
does, it kind of manifests in a fashion that's acceptable and applicable to the
people of the time. So in other words, it's almost like belve.
What I believe has happened is that the person has gone out, you know,
say nineteen fifty four, they go out to the California desert. They
have this experience which is very much like a shamanic experience, you know,
thousands of years ago, going up to the mountain and communing with the gods,
you know, or angels. But today it's like long haired, angelic
looking aliens, and there's this sort of philosophical exchange about how we need to
live our lives, which, you know, this gets into controversial territory,
but it's not much different to Moses going up Mounts Sinai and receiving the Ten
Commandments, which happen to tell you how to leave your life. You know,
there's not much difference. And I think this phenomena has the ability to
sort of pull imagery from our subconscious and appear for us in a fashion that
is acceptable to us. So I think, in other words, I don't
believe the contact tees had literal face to face encounters with long headed aliens coming
from nuts and bolt spacecraft. But that was the pop culture imagery through Hollywood
movies like Daily Earth Stood Still and Invaders from Mars and all these sorts of
films that existed at the time. People were aware of that imagery in the
same way that today people aware of like the are aware of like the gray,
black eyed alien imagery. And I think certain encounters today that fall into
that category are due to the mind being manipulated. I think this phenomenon,
whatever it is, wants to interact with us, who wants to teach us,
wants to tell us things. But I'm not sure we've ever seen it
in its real, original, raw form. I think we're seeing some like
almost like a hologram or something, an imagery instilled in our minds that we're
comfortable with. And I think, you know, when you find out that
some of the contactees, for example, you know they contacted their space brothers
not by going out into the desert, but by esp or. I mean
one George Fantassel, he said his contact was initially maybe what he called thought
transfers are what we call esp. George Hunt Williamson made his initial contacts by
WIGI boards. Others did go out into the desert. Others felt that they
fell asleep and then entered like a trance like state where these entities then entered
the person's dream state, as if they literally invaded the person's dreams. And
I think what this tells me is that many of the contactees had experiences with
something, but it's clear when you read their accounts they were having these experiences
in altered states. And I think that's an important thing that that's why I
believe their stories are real, but I don't take them literally black and white
as encounters with you know, Commander zag Of from Venus. You know,
that was the pop culture imagery that they were ripping from people's minds and manifesting
in that form. And I think the Contact team movement is a fascinating one
because I really do believe it demonstrates for me, at least undeniable contact with
something. When we get past the sort of camouflage imagery they use to interact
with us, then we kind of say beyond the veil, if you like,
beyond the curtain as to who or whatever this phenomenon really is right,
and that's why I love it because it is I think, you know,
it's it's so enigmatic that it's hard to put its kind of figure it out.
These people seem to have these experiences. At one hand, they're being
told these extremely wise things that we really need to hear as of culture as
individuals. On the other hand, here being told these crazy things that you
know, many would disregard it's certainly not true, such as you know,
maybe coming from the moon and the other side of the moon has gardens and
it's beautiful, and so because one side is definitely not true, the whole
the baby's throwing out with the backwater and the whole phenomenon is disregard it.
But I agree with you that it is something important that shouldn't be forgotten.
Yeah, and I think you just hit on a very important point there that
the issue of how it's you know, it's it's this or that is black
or it's white, you know, no pun intended, is often gray.
You know. It's like, you know, it's kind of like that's why
I said, Yeah, it's kind of like it's kind of like the contact
teas I said, they get a bad rap, because you know, on
the one hand, you have the people who interpret all literally and they're laughed
at saying, you know, oh, yeah, these aliens come from Venus.
On the other hand, you know, you have a lot of academic
people and scientific people who if they'd look beyond the just the front window image,
if you like, and just say no, this is nonsense, there's
no life on Venus, but then looked further into these accounts and see how
people who were clearly rendered into altered states or their perception was being manipulated.
I think we can actually learn a great deal from the contact tees, and
in many cases, studying their cases could be the key to actually understanding a
great deal about the nature of the intelligence behind the phenomenon. Possibly even you
know, we could learn far more from them than we could from today's abductees.
But it's kind of like a taboo area that oh, it's just that
ridiculous crap from the fifties, you know, And what you know what,
there's so much to say about this topic, and I love this topic,
and I think it would hit on something really important. I think it'd be
fun to talk about that. I want to have you on again in the
future hopefully not too far, and we'll hit this topic in particular and move
on to the contactees of today because it's so interesting. But right now we're
out of time. We've got missing time almost yeah, I think so,
there's always missing time, you know, and we get interested in it builds
like you know, two minutes to pass by an not a whole hour.
But I thank you so much for coming on. The show was really interesting.
And where's the best place for people to go find information and read your
books? Well, people can con well, people can find out more and
also contact me at Nick Redferns books dot blogspot dot com. Okay, Nick
Redferends books dot blogspot dot com, blog, popotlogs, all right, and
they could google you and you'll find all kinds of stuff, including full pictures
of you do and your different blackyear old poses. All right, thank you
so much for being on the show. Like I said before, and you
know, we'll talk soon. It's been a really interesting show. Well,
thanks Andrew, appreciate it. Thank you, thank you, and we are
out of time. Everybody, like Nick said, you know, go google
him Nick redfernsbooks dot blogspot dot com. I think I got that right.
So check him out and buy his books because they're very interesting. And I
really think, you know, this open mindedness and this being open to all
the different aspects but also not you know, hiding anything is so important because
it's phenomena tells us a lot about ourselves and you know, those consciousnesses that
are external to us. So it's a lot of fun to talk about this
stuff. We are out of time. Thank you so much for joining us
at open Minds TV. Don't forget to visit open minds dot tv for the
latest news. And again, like I said, you know, go visit
my Huffington Post blogs that I'll keep posting, and also ufodailynews dot com for
more UFO news. And that's where I post my Huffington Post stories when I'm
done with them. And I'm tweeting UFO news on a regular basis, so
you have a tweet news line to get the latest UFO news. Join us
next week, we're gonna have another exciting guess. I don't have a completely
confirmed right now, so I won't tell you the name, but I'll tell
you it's gonna be delat So we'll talk to you soon. Everybody, have
a great week. Got close music,