WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:43.880 M m m m hm m hmm. All right, so we're gonna open 2 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:47.479 it up. Hopefully we'll get some good conversation today. Like I said, 3 00:00:47.560 --> 00:00:50.759 I just we we just want to live here on YouTube. So I'm trying 4 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:58.600 to also get Protestants because we haven't really had many Protestant Evangelicals step over here 5 00:00:58.640 --> 00:01:03.479 and discuss in a while. It's been a long time. I do want 6 00:01:03.520 --> 00:01:06.079 to talk about some of the good papal books that I've been reading, the 7 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:10.879 history of the Church, not just papacy, but really Byzantium right Byzantium is 8 00:01:10.920 --> 00:01:15.719 important in the history of Byzantium, obviously to the Orthodox Church. And since 9 00:01:15.760 --> 00:01:19.519 I'll be going to Italy soon, we're gonna be prepping for the history of 10 00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:26.920 Byzantium and Renaissance Florence. Renaissance Italy is gonna be a series of talks. 11 00:01:26.760 --> 00:01:30.239 So I've got my Renaissance books over there, and I've also got my Byzantium 12 00:01:30.280 --> 00:01:33.799 books right here. So we're gonna be talking about some of these big fat 13 00:01:34.120 --> 00:01:38.400 Orthodox texts church history texts. Actually one of them was written by a Catholic 14 00:01:38.400 --> 00:01:46.239 who became Orthodox, so we'll be talking about that just a little bit but 15 00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:52.040 I'm seeing Protestants popping up everywhere talking talking, smack talking the jibber jabber Protestants. 16 00:01:52.239 --> 00:01:57.400 Oh, finally we got the evidence we need to finally disprove Roman Catholicism. 17 00:01:59.120 --> 00:02:01.719 And it's like no, uh, and it don't work like that. 18 00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.159 None of this backs up Protestanism. In fact, Protestantism is worse in the 19 00:02:07.199 --> 00:02:15.599 sense that Protestantism was a massive deviation from the norms of the Church for the 20 00:02:15.639 --> 00:02:22.479 first thousand years, and when the Protestant revolt happened, it was actually a 21 00:02:22.520 --> 00:02:28.280 revolt more extreme than what you saw in the eleventh century Gregroin reforms of the 22 00:02:28.280 --> 00:02:40.520 papacy. Now, the Gregrowing reforms didn't start out talking about dogma per se, 23 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:45.599 right. I mean, there's some discussion of the issue of the phillyokuay 24 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:50.000 and the creed, but the main issue of the Gregowin reforms were actually trying 25 00:02:50.039 --> 00:02:53.400 to deal with inner problems in the Latin Church at that time. And a 26 00:02:53.400 --> 00:02:59.879 lot of the history texts that we've been looking at lately are covering that. 27 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:01.120 And I want to talk about a few of those quotes and then we'll open 28 00:03:01.159 --> 00:03:04.919 it up. So the first book that I've been reading that is the least 29 00:03:05.520 --> 00:03:10.159 good of the three books is the Louth book. I'm not a huge fan 30 00:03:10.199 --> 00:03:15.479 of Andrew Louth because I sent an email to Andrew Louth many years ago and 31 00:03:15.479 --> 00:03:20.039 he sent a nasty email back. And also Louth is a kind of an 32 00:03:20.039 --> 00:03:23.919 ecumenist, so I'm not a huge fan of him. But he wrote one 33 00:03:23.960 --> 00:03:29.120 of the books in the series of the Church in History from SVS Press, 34 00:03:29.879 --> 00:03:32.680 and so he did Greek East Latin West. Not to be confused with doctor 35 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:38.639 Phillip Schard's book Greek East Latin West, which is a better book honestly, 36 00:03:38.719 --> 00:03:43.680 but I mean this is an okay treatment of the Church from six eighty to 37 00:03:44.159 --> 00:03:46.879 ten seventy, so basically we're getting up into the Grigorian reforms. And then 38 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:53.280 the next book after this was actually a way better book. It covers the 39 00:03:53.319 --> 00:04:00.000 period after that, so the Byzantine period basically. But Louth has a good 40 00:04:00.120 --> 00:04:08.319 discussion of iconoclasm and iconographic differences between East and West. And as you guys 41 00:04:08.360 --> 00:04:11.520 know or may not know, you know the Orthodox view, believe it or 42 00:04:11.520 --> 00:04:17.519 not, we we very much side with the papacy during that time period because, 43 00:04:17.519 --> 00:04:23.800 as Louth admits in this chapter on the Francs. It was actually the 44 00:04:23.839 --> 00:04:30.079 Francs that were rejecting the Seventh Ecumenical Council, and the papacy was legit at 45 00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:36.600 the time. They came through and opposed the Franks. And what's interesting is 46 00:04:36.639 --> 00:04:43.439 that Louth goes into a lot of the scholarship about the exchanges at that time. 47 00:04:44.519 --> 00:04:47.000 And so what happened was that the West, he says, lacked a 48 00:04:47.079 --> 00:04:53.600 clear icon dogma, not so much because they had the desire to reject the 49 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:58.399 Seventh Ecamenical Council, but because they had already not accepted. Well, they 50 00:04:58.519 --> 00:05:02.879 accepted and then changed the position on the Trollo Quintissex Council, right, And 51 00:05:02.959 --> 00:05:11.160 so Trollo Quintessex matters because it's the first council to have a statement about icons 52 00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.800 in the Church, particularly that it forbade the image of Christ as the lamb. 53 00:05:15.839 --> 00:05:20.600 The argument was that Christ as the lamb was an image fitting only to 54 00:05:20.639 --> 00:05:25.319 the Old Testament period, and then since Christ is now incarnate, it no 55 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:29.399 longer makes sense to depict him as a lamb or any of the images that 56 00:05:29.439 --> 00:05:33.839 are kind of restricted to the Old Testament imagery. So that was the argument 57 00:05:33.920 --> 00:05:39.920 of Trollo In one of the Canons. But what's interesting is that the West 58 00:05:40.000 --> 00:05:45.000 didn't go into the depth of iconographic theology that the East did. And of 59 00:05:45.040 --> 00:05:48.279 course when we read John Damascus in his defensive Holy Images, and when we 60 00:05:48.319 --> 00:05:54.000 read Theodore the Studite on the Holy icons, we see the depth that the 61 00:05:54.560 --> 00:05:58.839 East went into it at the Council, basing all the argumentation, particularly in 62 00:05:58.879 --> 00:06:06.560 St. Theodore on Christology. So the crystallogical nuances were crucial to formulating the 63 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:14.560 correct iconographic theology at the Seventh Council. Now that matters because even though Rome 64 00:06:14.639 --> 00:06:17.279 didn't fully accept all of what's taught in the Seventh Council in terms of the 65 00:06:17.319 --> 00:06:23.680 Canons, Rome did correctly have the right position on the Seventh Council and did 66 00:06:23.759 --> 00:06:28.480 see them as what they called educational art. And so the big difference here 67 00:06:28.519 --> 00:06:31.839 at this point already we're seeing a difference is that the East is arguing that 68 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:40.199 iconographic imagery in the it's crucial to the liturgy, so they have a liturgical 69 00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:46.920 place, and the West at this time was emphasizing the educational aspect. It's 70 00:06:46.959 --> 00:06:51.199 not to say that the West rejected the liturgical sense or usage. They just 71 00:06:51.279 --> 00:06:58.920 didn't have the same theological positions of why it was connected to Christology, and 72 00:06:59.000 --> 00:07:02.240 it was already connected to the energy's doctrine, and so, in other words, 73 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:05.519 if you read John of Damascus and if you read Saint Theodore the Pseudai, 74 00:07:05.639 --> 00:07:11.360 you'll see that the Essen Sentergy distinction is very important for iconographic theology. 75 00:07:12.199 --> 00:07:15.519 However, a big part of this is relevant to today though, is the 76 00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:18.480 fact that, as Lou points out, this is pages eighty four and eighty 77 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:28.560 five due to rejecting the Frankish position. Remember the papacy at this time Leo 78 00:07:28.639 --> 00:07:36.600 the Third and the pope before him rejected the Frankish iconoclass position. So remember 79 00:07:36.639 --> 00:07:41.600 the Franks had a They weren't totally iconoclass, but they had they didn't accept 80 00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:46.120 the Seventh Council, and they were trying to pressure the papacy to reject the 81 00:07:46.160 --> 00:07:48.920 Seventh Ecumentical Council, and the papacy said, no, we will not. 82 00:07:50.040 --> 00:07:56.360 And the response as to why, according to Leo the Third, was that 83 00:07:57.600 --> 00:08:03.240 the icon graphic theology of the East is the correct theology. And they actually 84 00:08:03.319 --> 00:08:09.000 had a list of quotes from John of Damascus in the west right which was 85 00:08:09.079 --> 00:08:15.480 correct. And then the argument was that the Frankish missionaries that were sent out 86 00:08:15.639 --> 00:08:20.680 from under Charlemagne. They were already beginning to use the philioqua in the creed. 87 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:26.759 And I'll read you what Louth says Leo. Their refused pressure from Charlemagne 88 00:08:26.800 --> 00:08:31.480 to follow the Frankish practice of inserting the philioqua into the creed. Indeed, 89 00:08:31.519 --> 00:08:35.519 had the creed been inscribed in its original form of Greek in Latin already in 90 00:08:35.600 --> 00:08:43.480 two silver shields set up in Saint Peter's and so you can see the machinations 91 00:08:43.519 --> 00:08:50.320 of the Franks. The Carolinians at that time was to create a cesero papal 92 00:08:50.440 --> 00:08:54.519 church in the West. They wanted to control the West at that time. 93 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.559 Now they didn't achieve this, But what I'm getting at is that that's a 94 00:08:58.720 --> 00:09:03.320 history fact that we've talked about for many, many years, many many times, 95 00:09:03.720 --> 00:09:07.200 and yet again we have another scholar in terms of church history backing up 96 00:09:07.679 --> 00:09:13.240 that position. And one of the key theologians at the court of the Carolinians 97 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:22.120 was Theodolf. And Theodolf argued against John of Damascus on the basis of platonic 98 00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:30.840 argumentation and that the only symbology that should be used get this is Old Testament 99 00:09:31.000 --> 00:09:37.960 iconography for the emperor, for CHARLOTTEAE. Why would that be the case, 100 00:09:37.960 --> 00:09:41.840 Why would they want to do that, because in the history that and this 101 00:09:41.960 --> 00:09:46.360 is the same in the East as well. In the Eastern Empire, iconoclasm 102 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:52.799 had a statist motivation because the emperor one of the only image to be used 103 00:09:54.399 --> 00:10:00.159 was the image of him as David and as the representative of God. So 104 00:10:00.200 --> 00:10:03.919 there was a status motivation on the part of the heterodox emperors that wanted to 105 00:10:03.919 --> 00:10:09.159 get rid of icons, the iconic class emperors, and the same motivation of 106 00:10:09.279 --> 00:10:16.399 Theodolph, the court theologian of Charlemagne. This is pages eighty eight, eighty 107 00:10:16.480 --> 00:10:22.039 nine, and ninety one of Louth, And so you can see that statism 108 00:10:22.159 --> 00:10:26.919 is the motivation for iconoclasm in both the court of the East and the West. 109 00:10:28.159 --> 00:10:35.320 And remember that Leo the third forbade the change to the creed, forbade 110 00:10:35.320 --> 00:10:41.120 the insertion of the philioquay. Now there's a couple of other places that were 111 00:10:41.799 --> 00:10:46.799 okay so far. In the Louth book. Louth has a sort of brief 112 00:10:48.200 --> 00:10:54.159 overview of Florence, and he admits that there were already in the seventies and 113 00:10:54.240 --> 00:11:01.039 seven in the seven seventies in the West people creating a Florida jellium of Philly 114 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:07.559 Oquay proofs. And that's relevant to the debate review that David Arhon and I 115 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:16.639 just did of his recent Philly Oquay debate, and so Louth also mentions Rome 116 00:11:16.720 --> 00:11:24.159 accepting initially Photius and then the two the change of position on the Eighth Council 117 00:11:24.200 --> 00:11:28.200 between East and West. So there's two rival councils between East and West, 118 00:11:28.279 --> 00:11:31.200 which is known as the Eighth Council for both Orthodox and for the Roman Catholics. 119 00:11:31.720 --> 00:11:35.720 There's an Eastern Council and a Latin Council, and he admits that a 120 00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:43.639 Rome eventually accepted the correct one and then reverse their position. Next book I 121 00:11:43.639 --> 00:11:50.720 want to mention before we open it up is h the historian Sushensky, who 122 00:11:50.840 --> 00:11:56.639 has his book. You know, we've covered his famous recent Philly Oquay book. 123 00:11:56.639 --> 00:12:01.000 We did a whole three hour podcast on his history of the discussion of 124 00:12:01.000 --> 00:12:03.639 the Phily Oqua, and of course a lot of Roman Catholics don't read it, 125 00:12:03.720 --> 00:12:09.879 or they're not interested in reading it, because he's giving a historical overview 126 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:15.240 of the usage of the various passages that are the contentious passages, not just 127 00:12:15.279 --> 00:12:18.440 in scripture, but in the Church fathers all the way up until today. 128 00:12:18.039 --> 00:12:22.840 So his Philly Oquay book is a really excellent text. Everybody has to if 129 00:12:22.879 --> 00:12:24.720 you're interested in the Philly equid. But you have to read that one. 130 00:12:24.840 --> 00:12:28.120 But I guess this is new er. Let's see what this came out. 131 00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:35.759 He has a book on the history of the papacy itself in its relationship to 132 00:12:35.799 --> 00:12:39.080 the East. This came out, I guess in twenty seventeen, so it's 133 00:12:39.200 --> 00:12:43.080 fairly new. So this is the paper say in the Orthodox the sources of 134 00:12:43.120 --> 00:12:46.120 the history of the debate. So it's a lot of historical sourcing, which 135 00:12:46.159 --> 00:12:50.559 is really good. Not so much about the dogma itself, but historical sources. 136 00:12:52.600 --> 00:13:00.120 And remember that Sashensky started out as a Roman Catholic and then eventually he 137 00:13:00.200 --> 00:13:05.919 became Orthodox after studying these topics in depth, so that's why he's another relevant 138 00:13:05.919 --> 00:13:11.120 source. And he gets into a lot of the discussions, for example of 139 00:13:11.159 --> 00:13:16.759 Canon six of Nicia, which is really good because he talks about a lot 140 00:13:16.759 --> 00:13:20.519 of the proof texts that would be used by Roman Catholics, such as the 141 00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:26.759 Canons of Sartica. Sartica didn't have anything to do with Vatican One papacy. 142 00:13:26.639 --> 00:13:31.840 In fact, Sartaica itself was a council that granted the appellate right of appeals 143 00:13:31.960 --> 00:13:35.480 to the papacy. It was not a papal council. So the very thing 144 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:41.039 that they'd like to use actually disproves it. And it was also a canonical 145 00:13:41.120 --> 00:13:46.840 development in how appeals could happen. Bes of Rome was not the only person 146 00:13:46.879 --> 00:13:50.519 that could receive appeals. In fact, the rest of the East didn't even 147 00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:54.679 accept the Canons of Sartica until Trollo. And so what we see as an 148 00:13:54.720 --> 00:14:01.759 evolving notion of canonical privileges is exactly why. For example, when you talk 149 00:14:01.799 --> 00:14:05.759 to Roman Catholics about autocephalist churches, they get confused and they don't know what 150 00:14:05.799 --> 00:14:09.360 you're talking about. They don't realize that it's the Council of Ephesus that granted 151 00:14:09.399 --> 00:14:16.440 the Church of Cyprus autocephaly. And the very existence of autocephalist churches under cuts 152 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:22.360 the Vatican One Roman Catholic portrayal of history because, as is admitted in the 153 00:14:22.360 --> 00:14:28.559 new Alexandrian document, right, autocephalist churches really shows that the attitude of the 154 00:14:28.600 --> 00:14:33.320 Church in the first millennium was not Vatican One papacy. There's a great discussion 155 00:14:33.320 --> 00:14:37.360 as well in this book of the Canons of Constantinople, which are very important 156 00:14:37.360 --> 00:14:43.279 for the history of the papacy debate. Because the cans of Constantinople One, 157 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.159 which is the creed the council that gives the church it's dogma of the Trinity. 158 00:14:48.240 --> 00:14:52.960 It's a Cappadocian dogma of the Trinity. It was not accepted at Rome. 159 00:14:54.080 --> 00:14:56.360 The council has had and closed out of communion with Rome. It was 160 00:14:58.279 --> 00:15:01.759 presided over by a saint that died out of a community of Rome, Saint 161 00:15:01.799 --> 00:15:07.759 Malitias of Antioch. And then yet Rome a couple of centuries later retroactively accepts 162 00:15:07.759 --> 00:15:13.639 Constantinople One. So all of that is completely contrary to the Vatican One revision 163 00:15:13.679 --> 00:15:18.279 of history. And that's precisely why we see things like the Alexandria document, 164 00:15:18.480 --> 00:15:24.399 right, which is attempting to give credence, to give place to all of 165 00:15:24.440 --> 00:15:28.240 our arguments. Right. We did a whole podcast on it. Of course, 166 00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:33.759 all the Roman Catholics have entirely, almost as a whole, chosen to 167 00:15:33.919 --> 00:15:41.320 ignore this because, as you know, it admits ninety five percent of our 168 00:15:41.440 --> 00:15:48.320 argumentation centidality and premacy in the second millennium today and today Alexandria document from June 169 00:15:48.399 --> 00:15:52.519 seventh, twenty twenty three with papal approval. And it's almost like they were 170 00:15:52.559 --> 00:15:56.480 listening to you know, me and Ubi or something, right, because I'm 171 00:15:56.480 --> 00:15:58.879 not saying that they literally were. I'm just saying that this is actually what's 172 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.399 in the literature when you go to the literature of all these books. And 173 00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:07.240 I'm not just talking about Catholics, I'm talking about I mean Orthodox, I'm 174 00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.000 talking about Catholics right, when you go read Devornic, uh, you know, 175 00:16:11.039 --> 00:16:14.639 when you read Devarnic on the Phosian Schism, when you read Devornic on 176 00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:19.200 Byzantium and the Papacy, when you read Kongar nine hundred years together. I 177 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:25.559 mean, we consistently see in the present day uni At literature most of the 178 00:16:25.679 --> 00:16:32.759 Orthodox arguments represented. And so in order to understand Francis's synod on sinidality, 179 00:16:32.840 --> 00:16:37.840 right, you have to understand sinidality and premiacy as the Romancality Church has been 180 00:16:37.840 --> 00:16:44.080 interacting with the Orthodox. That's the context of Francis's sinod on Sindality. Now, 181 00:16:44.440 --> 00:16:49.600 the nefarious element is that people at like Fordham University. Right, they're 182 00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:56.799 attempting to use this as a way to manipulate and evolve both the Romaicellitay Church 183 00:16:56.840 --> 00:17:03.279 and the Orthodox Church into accepting women deacons and into accepting women priests and all 184 00:17:03.399 --> 00:17:07.880 the other skittles elements that we've already covered. Right, So that's it's not 185 00:17:08.000 --> 00:17:12.640 just a question of the dogmas. It's also a question of entities that want 186 00:17:12.720 --> 00:17:18.400 to move both the East and the West away from any of their conservative and 187 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:27.480 traditional positions and into accepting basically feminism in skittles. But the document on sentidelity 188 00:17:27.559 --> 00:17:32.559 and premiacy again is when you read it, and we did a whole podcast 189 00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:33.680 on it. Go listen to it, Me and David and Sneck. We 190 00:17:33.720 --> 00:17:38.440 did a two hour podcast on the Alexandria Document with papal approval. Right, 191 00:17:38.519 --> 00:17:42.119 this is the successor document to the Chiaighty Document, which is mentioned in the 192 00:17:42.119 --> 00:17:48.839 first paragraph there. Chady document admitted that the papacy did not exercise universal jurisdiction 193 00:17:48.920 --> 00:17:52.319 in the first millennium. Now, that was a pretty strong admission, but 194 00:17:52.960 --> 00:17:59.000 the Alexandria Document goes about twenty light years past that. Now, that does 195 00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:02.519 not mean that I'm saying that, oh, then it's time to reunite with 196 00:18:02.640 --> 00:18:07.039 Roman Catholics. No, because as we're seeing, as Tim discovered in his 197 00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:14.200 livestream podcast on the Synod on Sinidality, Roman Catholics are beginning to recognize that 198 00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:19.359 this movement to accept quote cenidality isn't even really about the classic notion of cinidality, 199 00:18:19.400 --> 00:18:25.480 which was always priests and bishops. It wasn't a thing where laity or 200 00:18:25.519 --> 00:18:29.880 women made decisions in the church. This is the next level that they want 201 00:18:29.920 --> 00:18:33.119 to take it to where they're pushing this in both Orthodoxy and the Roman Catholic 202 00:18:33.119 --> 00:18:38.559 world to completely renovate the church. So I understand this is something that affects 203 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.319 both Roman Orthodoxy and as we just covered with Father John Whiteford in the podcast 204 00:18:42.319 --> 00:18:48.559 that we did with him, he gave an excellent breakdown of exactly why and 205 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:56.480 where female deacons deaconesses, which again is a misuse of the terms. There 206 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:02.200 were not female deacons, right, the women who helped the diact in it, 207 00:19:02.400 --> 00:19:06.720 but they were not inducted into the order of Deacons. And Father John 208 00:19:06.720 --> 00:19:10.359 Whitefer made a good point about that going into the history and how they're really 209 00:19:10.799 --> 00:19:15.960 doing kind of a false equivalence equivocating to then say well, and you could 210 00:19:15.960 --> 00:19:18.480 see the logic right, because then they're going to say, well, if 211 00:19:18.519 --> 00:19:22.359 women can be deacons, and deacons are the lowest grade of the priesthood, 212 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:26.759 they participate to a degree in the priesthood, which is why we call them 213 00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:30.599 father deacons, then women can be priests because they're already part of it. 214 00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.599 You see, see the logic of it. No, oh, and that's 215 00:19:33.599 --> 00:19:36.279 a slippery slope. It's not a slippery slope. We know that will happen 216 00:19:36.319 --> 00:19:41.200 because it's exactly what happened amongst the Anglicans. The Anglicans began with the exact 217 00:19:41.240 --> 00:19:45.880 same thing as Father John Whyford pointed out, and then they moved to women 218 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.039 priests, and then they moved to women and even non binary bishops. So 219 00:19:49.200 --> 00:19:53.119 it's the same. It's not a slippery slope, it's the logic of where 220 00:19:53.119 --> 00:19:59.480 the position goes. Because it's not just about logic, it's also about different 221 00:19:59.599 --> 00:20:04.119 power groups, geopolitical entities. Again, people out of Fordham University. These 222 00:20:04.119 --> 00:20:08.160 are the entities that are pushing. That's a Jesuit university pushing both skittles and 223 00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:15.559 all this stuff. In the Orthodox and Roman Catholic world, so we are 224 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:19.000 both sort of. They don't care about the PROSCT world because the PROSCT world 225 00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:25.039 has already been conquered. It fell a long time ago. So they're very 226 00:20:25.039 --> 00:20:33.920 interested in really demolishing Christianity in the West, or what's left of it in 227 00:20:33.960 --> 00:20:40.119 any of its forms, and turning Christianity into a pseudo Christianity or a pseudo 228 00:20:40.200 --> 00:20:45.480 religion that blends with all the other world religions like Francis's Abu Dhabi Faith Center. 229 00:20:45.799 --> 00:20:49.039 Right, that's where they want to take things clearly anyway. But to 230 00:20:49.079 --> 00:20:56.079 get back to Sishensky's History of the Papacy and Byzantium Orthodoxy book, it's good. 231 00:20:56.240 --> 00:21:00.279 I really thought the treatment of a lot of these key points was done 232 00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:04.000 in a very scholarly way. It's not an apologetic book, it's a very 233 00:21:04.720 --> 00:21:12.079 scholarly approach. For example, he treats the issue of the emperor really bending 234 00:21:12.200 --> 00:21:18.240 Vigilius to the will of the Council as a proof against this sort of Vatican 235 00:21:18.279 --> 00:21:26.039 One view. Right, despite these complements and expressions of humility, Emperor Justinian 236 00:21:26.079 --> 00:21:30.319 made it clear that the power of the Roman bishop must ultimately be subservient to 237 00:21:30.519 --> 00:21:37.119 the imperial will, the Emperor threatened to banish Pope Agapetus. Now I'm not 238 00:21:37.160 --> 00:21:40.759 saying that every one of these actions is necessarily the right thing to do, 239 00:21:41.359 --> 00:21:49.279 but what happened was the rest of the Church basically wanted Pope Vigilius to sign 240 00:21:49.359 --> 00:21:57.440 off on the Fifth Ecumenical Council, and the Pope held off on that, 241 00:21:59.720 --> 00:22:03.880 And then Virgilius, who journeyed to Constantinople, became fully aware that the majority 242 00:22:03.880 --> 00:22:07.839 of the Western bishops were opposed to Justinian scheme, but the Emperor required the 243 00:22:07.880 --> 00:22:11.319 Pope's approval for legitimacy, and he was determined to get it. Over the 244 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:17.119 next several months, Virgilius was rowbeaten and placed under de facto house arrest, 245 00:22:17.480 --> 00:22:21.400 and at one point was dragged kicking and screaming from the altar. When the 246 00:22:21.440 --> 00:22:25.960 second Council of Constantinople met in five fifty three, Virgilius refused to attend despite 247 00:22:26.000 --> 00:22:30.160 the pleading from the other patriarchs, so the Emperor demanded that he'd be removed 248 00:22:30.200 --> 00:22:33.960 from the diptychs for his unwillingness to ben to the judgment of the church. 249 00:22:34.079 --> 00:22:38.000 When the pope finally did accept the council's decisions, the bishops of Istria, 250 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:45.920 Milan, and Achilea moved to excommunicate the Pope of Rome. So notice that. 251 00:22:47.000 --> 00:22:51.160 And by the way, at this time, the Bishop of Milan was 252 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:53.519 very close in power. He didn't have all the power of the Bishop of 253 00:22:53.559 --> 00:22:57.839 Rome, but the next powerful bishopric in the West after Rome was Milan. 254 00:22:59.319 --> 00:23:03.880 So notice that the Bishop of Milan, the bishop of Istria and Aquileia had 255 00:23:03.960 --> 00:23:11.079 absolutely no qualms excommunicating Vigilius. Now I'm not saying it's not even a question 256 00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:15.519 of who's right wrong, it's that well, they clearly had the attitude that 257 00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:18.720 was not Vatican one, because Vatican one and Romccalolic caunt of law still says, 258 00:23:18.720 --> 00:23:23.599 no one judges the first see right, you can't have three bishops excommunicate 259 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:27.400 the pope. It doesn't work that way. However, this schism in the 260 00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:33.319 West lasted for the next several decades. Now remember Romeccalolics always say you Orthodox 261 00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:40.680 have schisms amongst you. Here's a multiple decade schism of three bishops rivaling in 262 00:23:40.759 --> 00:23:45.759 power to the Bishop of Rome, especially the Bishop of Milan, excommunicating Pope 263 00:23:45.799 --> 00:23:52.359 Vigilius over this and they excommunicate him because he quote lacked vigilance. So Vigilius 264 00:23:52.440 --> 00:23:57.880 lacked vigilance, according to and so he was allowing a heresy by accepting the 265 00:23:57.920 --> 00:24:06.359 Fifth Ecumenical Council. And of course, over time Rome still accepts the Fifth 266 00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:12.440 Ecumenical Council was the fifth medical council ever rejected as an imp false imperial council. 267 00:24:14.240 --> 00:24:18.200 No, because all of the ecumenical councils of the first seventh centuries were 268 00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:26.200 called by the emperor. Now that was just the modus operandi of how the 269 00:24:26.279 --> 00:24:32.839 church functioned at that time. But what it shows is that it wasn't the 270 00:24:32.960 --> 00:24:36.960 Vatican one view. Also, by the way, there is a good treatment 271 00:24:37.039 --> 00:24:44.319 of Dictatus Pope, which he does admit is in the papal register, and 272 00:24:44.400 --> 00:24:51.319 he says the novelties of the Gregorian Reform still to this day divide. Scholars 273 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:56.319 all agree that the reforms were directed at at battering the situation the church. 274 00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.720 So the idea was, if we completely concentrate the power in the Latin Church 275 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:07.519 in the last then we would have an independently powerful papacy that could exert direct 276 00:25:07.599 --> 00:25:11.319 jurisdictional control over all of Christendom. Thus, there would be renewal in the 277 00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:15.839 church. So the idea, even if it was well intentioned, was a 278 00:25:15.920 --> 00:25:23.240 revolution in the ecclesiology of the church. And that's when we got Dictatus Pope. 279 00:25:23.519 --> 00:25:36.119 Right here we go to Fordham Jesuit University. Remember the remember Dictatus Pope. 280 00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:41.200 Roman Church is founded by God alone. The Roman Church alone can be 281 00:25:41.240 --> 00:25:45.000 called universal. No sena can be called without uh ecumenical, without the pope. 282 00:25:45.039 --> 00:25:48.160 Now wait a minute, remember constantin uple one was already called without the 283 00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:51.519 pope, and to find the dogma of the Trinity without the pope, and 284 00:25:51.599 --> 00:25:56.319 the saints and everybody at that council could close the council out of communion with 285 00:25:56.400 --> 00:26:02.240 the Pope. So again, what's being declared here in Dictatus Pope in ten 286 00:26:02.319 --> 00:26:07.559 seventy five is completely different than the experience of the church in the first thousand 287 00:26:07.640 --> 00:26:11.000 years, you see. And this is where this is the pathway to Vatican 288 00:26:11.119 --> 00:26:18.119 One. The Roman Church never aired and never will air unto eternity. Point 289 00:26:18.200 --> 00:26:22.160 twenty two. Well, now, wait a minute, what about when Pope 290 00:26:22.160 --> 00:26:26.039 Panorius was condemned as a heretic And a lot of the Roman Catholics, by 291 00:26:26.079 --> 00:26:30.799 the way, are now admitting you know, hey, Francis has registered official 292 00:26:30.920 --> 00:26:33.960 error into the Acts of the Apostolic City. Right. This is a you 293 00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:37.359 know, tim is saying, hey, it's in the act act Apostolic I 294 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.200 say that, right, it's in the Acts of Apostolic c Francis has confirmed 295 00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:45.640 the erroneous teachings, right, particularly he was talking about a communion for divorced 296 00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:49.160 and remarried in the Roman Catholic system. But there's more than that. I 297 00:26:49.200 --> 00:26:55.240 mean, Francis has also, you know, changed the teaching on the death 298 00:26:55.240 --> 00:27:02.519 penalty, and to change these teachings, by the way. But aside from 299 00:27:02.519 --> 00:27:04.720 all this, by the way, it's not even really a question of what's 300 00:27:04.880 --> 00:27:08.839 entered into the magisterium. I mean, I think that strengthens the argument. 301 00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:15.480 Sure, But if you stop and think about it, when POPEA Noorius was 302 00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:19.160 teaching monothelitism, he's not condemned because of anything that he taught ex Cathedral. 303 00:27:21.200 --> 00:27:23.319 He's condemned for teaching it in a letter that he wrote to someone else. 304 00:27:26.440 --> 00:27:33.960 So in the six Econmenical Council, they saw it fit to say that just 305 00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:37.920 teaching these errors from one bishop to another is enough to get you called a 306 00:27:37.960 --> 00:27:44.680 heretic. So you understand that the authority behind the document has nothing to do 307 00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:49.960 with whether you are teaching harisire or not. If authority behind the document was 308 00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:55.640 what was necessary to be a heretic, then no one could be a heretic, 309 00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.400 but the pope. You see how silly this argument is. Martin Luther 310 00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:07.359 had no authority behind his teachings in the ninety five feces or later on in 311 00:28:07.359 --> 00:28:14.480 his when he got more serious about his teachings. He was just a priest, 312 00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:22.160 right, And yet Martin Luther is condemned as o heritant if you read 313 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:27.279 denzing or denzing or condemns in many many places condemned propositions. Right, So 314 00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:33.079 if you believe blah blah blah, that's a condemned proposition. So you see 315 00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:41.440 that it's not necessary to have ex cathedra or or magisterial power behind what you 316 00:28:41.559 --> 00:28:47.279 teach. To teach error, to teach heresy, and to defect from the 317 00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:53.640 faith. Anyone can defect from the faith. Any patriarch or bishop can deffect 318 00:28:53.640 --> 00:28:57.480 from the faith. And so Honorius as well as other people in the church 319 00:28:59.079 --> 00:29:02.200 in the history of the Church are examples. And now, according to many 320 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:07.759 of the even the mainline Roman Catholics. Francis is now an example of a 321 00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:12.279 defection of the Roman sea. You can't separate the sea from the occupant. 322 00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:15.839 I know that they go together. They're distinct, but they're also not separate. 323 00:29:21.720 --> 00:29:25.119 So if Francis has officially entered into the registry of the acts of the 324 00:29:25.119 --> 00:29:30.400 Apostolic Sea error, that just strengthens the force of the argument that he is 325 00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:34.640 actually teaching error in heresy. And so therefore it is not true that the 326 00:29:34.720 --> 00:29:40.200 Roman church has never aired, nor will it ever. Err, I mean 327 00:29:40.240 --> 00:29:49.160 it aired when Honorius taught monothelitism and three ecumenical councils after him repeat his combination. 328 00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.519 It's the last book in the series I want to mention that I've been 329 00:29:53.599 --> 00:29:59.200 enjoying is volume four in the series, which is a follow up to Laut's 330 00:29:59.200 --> 00:30:03.480 book, which is much better than Laus's book, And that's the collaboration with 331 00:30:03.599 --> 00:30:11.319 Papadocus and Mayandorf Book four in the Church history series, because Papadocus and Meyandorf 332 00:30:11.359 --> 00:30:17.039 understand the theology really well, so you get a much more theologically dense volume 333 00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:21.839 in this one. Then you get in the other two which Laos book is 334 00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.759 again not as theologically dense, but it's okay. Sashensky's book is a history 335 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:30.559 book, so it's not mainly focused on dogma. I mean, it does 336 00:30:30.920 --> 00:30:33.119 get into the dogmas, but this one is a lot more. It's a 337 00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:40.880 theologically dense treatment. And because Papadoccus, of course wrote the book about the 338 00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:48.599 Palamite Synods in contrast to the Council Lines and the Council of Florence, in 339 00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.839 this bigger, thicker treatment, he has a lot to say about the Gregorian 340 00:30:52.880 --> 00:30:56.480 reforms and the forgeries of that time in the first fifty to sixty pages. 341 00:30:57.480 --> 00:31:04.680 But we were having a discussion with Father Deacon the other day about the history 342 00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:15.279 of the Deacon Satiricos and the synod in Byzantium that condemned the errors of Satiricos. 343 00:31:15.079 --> 00:31:21.640 And the reason that this is such a fascinating period and a fascinating synod 344 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:30.319 is because it inadvertently already condemns the errors of Protestant penal substitution. And I 345 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.559 didn't realize because I had this book a few months ago, just didn't get 346 00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:37.200 into it. But getting into it, I didn't realize that there's a whole 347 00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:45.519 chapter on Satiricos and this controversy, and it's an amazing controversy because who would 348 00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:53.480 have ever thought that the liturgy already rejects and condemns the Protestant penal substitution error. 349 00:31:53.720 --> 00:32:00.799 It's pretty amazing. And so far this this book is the best treatment 350 00:32:00.920 --> 00:32:06.759 I've seen of this specific error. Now my Endorsed Businessing Theology has two pages 351 00:32:06.799 --> 00:32:12.160 on it, so it's a decent introduction. Father Deacon Anayas says that the 352 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.200 Palmazansky book, I think he said on page two ten or so, has 353 00:32:15.240 --> 00:32:19.480 a treatment of it. I have the Pamazanski book, but it's not here 354 00:32:19.599 --> 00:32:23.680 at where I'm at right now. It's at my other library, so I 355 00:32:23.720 --> 00:32:30.119 can't look and see what's in that. But the Papadoccus book has again like 356 00:32:30.160 --> 00:32:35.920 an entire chapter on it. So basically the idea here is and then we'll 357 00:32:35.960 --> 00:32:39.599 open it up here in a minute to Q and A is that there was 358 00:32:39.640 --> 00:32:46.680 a dispute that arose in Byzantium in the eleven hundreds, and it was over 359 00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:52.119 the question of what's happening in the liturgy when you say, when we offer 360 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.920 the Eucharist, right when the priest offer is the Eucharist, what exactly is 361 00:32:54.960 --> 00:33:00.279 going on there, And Satirko said, well, well, the only answer 362 00:33:00.319 --> 00:33:06.079 here is that we have to say that the son is being offered to the 363 00:33:06.160 --> 00:33:09.759 father, So it's an exchange between one divine person to another. Now, 364 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:15.240 I don't think this has any direct connection to Anselm, even though this is 365 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.680 right around the period of when Anselm is beginning to be popular and Anselm popularizes 366 00:33:19.759 --> 00:33:27.599 the you know, the the infinite payment model, right where the only way 367 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:31.119 to pay off God's infinite debt, which he's infinitely offended by sin is an 368 00:33:31.160 --> 00:33:37.200 infinite divine person paying off another divine person. Right. That's the Anselmian atonement 369 00:33:37.240 --> 00:33:45.440 theory in basics, right. So it's not exactly like that, but it's 370 00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:51.839 it's got a few parallels because one thing that Satirriko says in common with Anselm 371 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:55.039 is that, well, it's a payment of the son to the father, 372 00:33:55.640 --> 00:33:59.640 right, And he says, that's really the only way to solve this issue. 373 00:33:59.720 --> 00:34:04.839 And we had a decent surface level argument because he thought, if we 374 00:34:04.920 --> 00:34:09.760 don't say this, then we're going to end up being a Nestorian. Right. 375 00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:16.280 So he thought, if you said that the sun is offering the humanity 376 00:34:17.199 --> 00:34:22.480 to the Trinity, which is the Orthodox position, as we'll see. So 377 00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:30.079 Tiricos thought, well, that's dividing the person that's Nestorian. And the answer 378 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:32.760 of the Church was no. First of all, get this, this is 379 00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:42.280 why it relates to penal substitution. We do not offer anything to God to 380 00:34:42.400 --> 00:34:50.480 pay God because nothing created could pay off God. So that's the first point. 381 00:34:50.559 --> 00:34:53.559 That's the first point that the council noted, is that there's no created 382 00:34:53.639 --> 00:35:00.599 thing that pays off God. That is a rejection ahead of time of the 383 00:35:00.639 --> 00:35:05.920 penal substitution theory that the son of God became man. This is the Protestant 384 00:35:05.960 --> 00:35:08.280 view. I'm going to give you right here, in order to fulfill the 385 00:35:08.440 --> 00:35:13.719 debt that we owe to God through sin. So Christ came to fulfill all 386 00:35:13.760 --> 00:35:16.360 the good works of the law, and once he merited all those good works 387 00:35:16.400 --> 00:35:21.719 of the law, he was a perfect sacrifice. And that perfect sacrifice then 388 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:29.960 placates the divine wrath against humanity. Right, So Christ doing that for us, 389 00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:35.119 standing in our place as our substitute, taking the wrath of God, 390 00:35:36.079 --> 00:35:42.599 then transfers to us his legal status of righteousness. So remember it's a legal 391 00:35:42.639 --> 00:35:47.079 status transferral view, where because Christ merited these things. The Father can then 392 00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:53.239 see us under the legal status of being righteous in Christ because Christ fulfilled all 393 00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:59.199 the law and the works. It's not an actual ontological change in you that 394 00:35:59.320 --> 00:36:05.480 makes you have that stance before God. That's the Protestant view. It's only 395 00:36:05.519 --> 00:36:10.079 based on the legal imputational work of Christ, and so Christ as the penal 396 00:36:10.079 --> 00:36:15.000 substitute then necessitates all those other points that I just made, right that make 397 00:36:15.519 --> 00:36:19.400 Does that make sense so far that that's the papal view. I mean, 398 00:36:19.400 --> 00:36:22.440 that's the just give me the Protestant view. And that's of course, you 399 00:36:22.440 --> 00:36:24.840 know, they will go to Romans and they'll just you know, pick and 400 00:36:24.920 --> 00:36:28.599 choose these quotes out of Romans, like, oh, well, you know, 401 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.920 uh uh, I don't know why this isn't showing the whole book of 402 00:36:32.000 --> 00:36:37.480 Romans. Oh here we go Romans three. Oh well, you see, 403 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:42.760 no one is righteous, right Romans three, No one's righteous, and so 404 00:36:42.880 --> 00:36:46.039 therefore Christ is our righteousness in God. They just have the assumption that Christ 405 00:36:46.119 --> 00:36:53.599 as our righteousness must mean this nominalistic legal category. It's a legal fiction, 406 00:36:53.719 --> 00:36:59.000 you see, and has nothing to do with the actual ontological status of those 407 00:36:59.039 --> 00:37:02.360 beings being right or unrighteous. Okay, so we're doing the Protestant view here. 408 00:37:04.480 --> 00:37:08.320 Now we're going to go back to the Byzantine Synod. The Byzantine Synods 409 00:37:08.320 --> 00:37:14.840 said no against satiricos, this sort of proto Protestant guy. We can't say 410 00:37:14.920 --> 00:37:22.679 that anything occurs in the Trinity that is only between two persons. So this 411 00:37:22.760 --> 00:37:30.599 is the first point they made. Nothing triadic is diaddic. Okay, Anything 412 00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:36.360 that's occurring in the Trinity, except for hypostatic properties or origin, is common 413 00:37:36.400 --> 00:37:40.280 to all three. So there could never be an offering of one person to 414 00:37:40.400 --> 00:37:49.119 the other, or of one person to the other that excludes the third person 415 00:37:49.360 --> 00:37:53.239 or a third person. So you couldn't have something that's unique to the Son 416 00:37:53.280 --> 00:37:58.159 and the Spirit that excludes the Father. You couldn't have an offering of the 417 00:37:58.159 --> 00:38:02.480 Son to the Father that becludes the Holy Spirit. That would be to imbalance 418 00:38:02.559 --> 00:38:08.239 the triad the council said, and they're absolutely right. Everything that occurs in 419 00:38:08.280 --> 00:38:15.719 the Trinity is triadic, but uniquely manifested in the mode of the persons who 420 00:38:15.760 --> 00:38:19.199 do that act. So there's one act, for example, to create the 421 00:38:19.239 --> 00:38:23.079 world. The Trinity has one act to create the world, but that one 422 00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:30.440 act is uniquely actualized or manifested in the three persons that have the same divine 423 00:38:30.519 --> 00:38:36.360 nature and thus the same divine act. So this is called mode, not 424 00:38:36.519 --> 00:38:40.559 modalism. Mode. Mode is just as important to Trinitarian theology as any of 425 00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:45.599 the other types of distinctions. The mode in which nature exists is triadic. 426 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:51.400 The mode in which the energies occur or move is also triadic. St. 427 00:38:51.440 --> 00:38:54.320 Basils says, the movement is from the Father, through the Son and in 428 00:38:54.360 --> 00:39:00.840 the Spirit. So the council is arguing against So trikos. You cannot say 429 00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:06.599 that anything occurs in the triad that is only between two persons. It must 430 00:39:06.599 --> 00:39:13.000 always be triadic. However, when we say in the liturgy, and this 431 00:39:13.159 --> 00:39:16.960 was the defining refutation of satiricos, it's the liturgy, the liturgy thine own, 432 00:39:17.039 --> 00:39:22.199 of thine own we offer unto thee. Christ is present in the person 433 00:39:22.280 --> 00:39:28.920 of the priest, offering the liturgy to the entire triad. So it is 434 00:39:28.960 --> 00:39:36.039 true that there is a distinction between the human nature and the divine Son. 435 00:39:36.159 --> 00:39:42.400 They are not severed or parted. The person of the Son is offering the 436 00:39:42.519 --> 00:39:49.599 humanity to the Father in the Holy Spirit. So It is not, by 437 00:39:49.639 --> 00:39:53.840 the way, the hypostasis of the son being offered to the Father. It 438 00:39:53.920 --> 00:39:59.480 is the hypostasis of the son because he became a high priest and became incarnate, 439 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:05.760 offering the human nature to the Father in the Holy spirit. You see 440 00:40:05.760 --> 00:40:12.440 that the Protestant doctrine, very similar to satiricos, is saying that the offering 441 00:40:12.599 --> 00:40:17.400 is the person of the son offering up his I guess his new hypostatic reality 442 00:40:17.480 --> 00:40:23.159 is incarnate, the punished divine human person to the Father. That's the Protestant 443 00:40:23.159 --> 00:40:27.760 doctrine. Then that pays off the Father's anger. You see. So you 444 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:30.559 see how the Orthodox view is not that. The Orthodox view is the son 445 00:40:30.920 --> 00:40:35.679 is offering up the human nature that he took on and that he healed, 446 00:40:35.719 --> 00:40:40.119 and that he deified to the whole triad for the purpose of the human nature 447 00:40:40.360 --> 00:40:45.920 entering into triadic life to heal. It is not a payment model. Sometimes 448 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:50.400 payment language is used, that's fine, but that's just one of the many 449 00:40:50.440 --> 00:40:55.239 analogies used. Right, Paul uses legal language about being made righteous before God, 450 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.199 but that's not the only usage. He uses a marriage analogy, he 451 00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:04.880 uses vine and vine dresser, He uses a sheep sheep fold. I mean 452 00:41:04.880 --> 00:41:07.119 he uses tons of an out of the Bible, not just Paul. I 453 00:41:07.119 --> 00:41:09.000 mean, I know that's in John, but I'm saying the New Testament uses 454 00:41:09.039 --> 00:41:16.360 many analogies for the relationship and never reduces them to a purely legal view like 455 00:41:16.400 --> 00:41:29.679 the Protestant doctrine. Does you see? And on this basic point, I 456 00:41:29.719 --> 00:41:32.960 think the Roman Catholics would agree with us. Maybe there would be I mean, 457 00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:37.800 not every Roman Catholic has the same view of the Atonement. There's a 458 00:41:37.880 --> 00:41:44.639 lot of kind of competing theories in Roman Catholicism on the Atonement. So we 459 00:41:44.679 --> 00:41:51.400 would not accept the and Selmian view, but not every Roman Catholic necessarily accepts 460 00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:59.480 the end Sellian view of the Atonement. But we would say that it's perfectly 461 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:05.480 coherently triadic to think that the son is offering the humanity to the triad. 462 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:09.480 And when we say to the triad, that doesn't exclude the father offering humanity 463 00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:14.519 to the son. That's true, but that just assumes that it's also in 464 00:42:14.599 --> 00:42:19.000 the spirit. You see, And so when the Sonoticon actually the sonaticon condemned 465 00:42:19.000 --> 00:42:23.440 satiricos, his condemnation isn't just this eleventh century Byzantine Synod. It's also entered 466 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:30.840 into the sonaticon where they explicitly read out the condemnation of satiricos. But it's 467 00:42:30.880 --> 00:42:36.719 all based, as Papa Doocca says in the book on the earlier Orthodox distinctions 468 00:42:36.760 --> 00:42:40.559 between nature, person, will, energy and effect. And so this proto 469 00:42:40.679 --> 00:42:47.239 Protestant penal substitution view is already rejected here and already rejected in the Sonoticon. 470 00:42:49.199 --> 00:42:53.719 We do not pay anything to God, nor could God be paid off by 471 00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:59.599 creatures, since he created creatures and has no need of anything. So you 472 00:42:59.639 --> 00:43:05.199 see how woll the Protestant idea that a creaturely offering of the human nature possessed 473 00:43:05.199 --> 00:43:08.719 by the divine son as a debt payment, as a hell payment, as 474 00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:14.559 a placating divine wrath payment doesn't even make sense. Why would God's wrath be 475 00:43:14.679 --> 00:43:21.039 placated by punishing the human nature of Jesus. This is all just atheism factory 476 00:43:21.079 --> 00:43:34.199 stuff. Also, he points out that the doctrine of the monarchia of the 477 00:43:34.199 --> 00:43:39.559 Father is upheld at this synod as well, and so this period is interesting 478 00:43:39.559 --> 00:43:45.760 because the development of the Byzantine early Byzantine Synods on Christology and affirming the monarchia 479 00:43:45.800 --> 00:43:51.119 of the Father, and in what way the humanity of Christ is deified, 480 00:43:51.400 --> 00:43:59.360 because there's actually a later synod that happens in regard to what way exactly christ 481 00:43:59.480 --> 00:44:04.559 humanity is deified in these early Byzantine era. I'm saying early in the sense 482 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:10.840 of early and Byzantium eleven hundred synods. There's a question of the deification of 483 00:44:10.840 --> 00:44:14.599 the human nature of Christ. And there were some groups that were saying, 484 00:44:14.639 --> 00:44:19.599 oh, his humanity is now fully divine, which is a would be a 485 00:44:19.639 --> 00:44:22.400 monophysite error. And so there was a resurgence of a kind of a monophysite 486 00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:28.280 error that he covers on pages one n five ninety six. And then interestingly, 487 00:44:29.079 --> 00:44:32.480 what comes next the rise of Bogomilism. And if you don't know what 488 00:44:32.519 --> 00:44:37.920 Bogomolism is, it's one of the predecessors to Protestantism. Now, for those 489 00:44:37.960 --> 00:44:43.360 that don't know, I did a very lengthy I read a gigantic, massive 490 00:44:43.519 --> 00:44:46.280 tone book many years ago, and I took about one hundred pages of notes 491 00:44:46.280 --> 00:45:00.239 literally Malcolm Lambert's book, and I summarized the whole book for you, called 492 00:45:00.280 --> 00:45:07.199 Medieval Heresy. It's a great book, and he is a Anglican church scholar. 493 00:45:07.960 --> 00:45:13.239 He's just a church historian. He's Anglican in terms of like I guess 494 00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:16.960 his theological background. I'm not saying it's true because he's Anglican. Nothing in 495 00:45:17.000 --> 00:45:21.679 it. It's not anti Protestant or anti people. So it has nothing. 496 00:45:21.719 --> 00:45:24.199 It is not. The book is not it's just a history book. It's 497 00:45:24.199 --> 00:45:30.199 a super scholarly treatment of the history of the Heretics in the Middle Ages in 498 00:45:30.280 --> 00:45:35.000 the Latin West. However, he begins by talking about the Bogamels. So 499 00:45:35.079 --> 00:45:39.039 if you're interested, here is my lecture on that book, Medieval Heresy by 500 00:45:43.039 --> 00:45:49.159 Malcolm Lambert. It's a great book and it lines up with what Papadocus and 501 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:57.880 Mayandorf were saying here about here's the key. Bogabalism was a rejection of the 502 00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:04.639 notion of hierarchy in Byzantium, and what they went for in their rejection of 503 00:46:04.760 --> 00:46:10.920 hierarchy was to assume that matter could never be a channel of grace. So 504 00:46:10.920 --> 00:46:15.840 there's a rejection of deification in terms of Christ. She's taking on human nature. 505 00:46:15.880 --> 00:46:21.000 Remember the previous we had a previous synod saying we condemn those who say 506 00:46:21.039 --> 00:46:24.559 that Christ's human nature is fully divine to the extent that it no longer has 507 00:46:24.599 --> 00:46:30.880 created properties that's condemned. Then you get an opposite, extreme reaction against the 508 00:46:30.960 --> 00:46:38.480 existing Byzantine Church by this Bulgarian group called the Bogamills. Boga Mill comes from 509 00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:45.440 the Bulgarians, you see, the Bulgary or the Bulgari they're called. And 510 00:46:45.480 --> 00:46:50.360 they said, hey, this church is corrupt. Let's go with that old 511 00:46:50.519 --> 00:46:53.119 Gnostic teaching. So there's a there's a Gnostic in the chat right there, 512 00:46:53.280 --> 00:47:00.079 Gnostic informant. He's saying it right here, saying I'm trying to avoid everybody. 513 00:47:00.159 --> 00:47:02.840 Now, I don't have time to do everybody's debates. Now, if 514 00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:07.719 you want to call in, you can call in on the chat. I 515 00:47:07.719 --> 00:47:13.000 mean, we got the chat right here. Gnostic man says it right there. 516 00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:15.960 See that call in. You want to call in? Here is the 517 00:47:16.000 --> 00:47:22.760 Twitter call in. These people never call in though. By the way, 518 00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:27.760 I've already done multiple debates with Gnostics in the past. What are you laughing 519 00:47:27.760 --> 00:47:30.320 at? I'm giving you the link. You're here laughing. Here's the link, 520 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:36.199 dude, what are you talking about? So the point though about the 521 00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:39.079 Boga Mills, and then later on they would influence the Cathari. Because the 522 00:47:39.159 --> 00:47:45.000 Cathari sought their secret, they had their own version of Apostolic succession, the 523 00:47:45.039 --> 00:47:52.800 Cathari did, and the Cathari got that succession from the Boga mills. This 524 00:47:52.920 --> 00:48:04.320 Byzantine heresy, right, What is all these weird Gnostic stuff in the chat? 525 00:48:04.360 --> 00:48:07.639 What the heck is going on? Bro? I don't you can laugh 526 00:48:07.679 --> 00:48:09.639 at me. It doesn't bother me. I'm just trying to figure out. 527 00:48:09.679 --> 00:48:12.880 If you want to come and have your conversation, you can do it. 528 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:19.119 But so the point here is that we're about to open it up. This 529 00:48:19.199 --> 00:48:22.559 is the last point. The point here is that the Boga Mills prepared the 530 00:48:22.559 --> 00:48:29.960 way for the Kathari, and the Cathari were very influential throughout France and Europe, 531 00:48:30.039 --> 00:48:34.039 unfortunately mainly in France. They actually had a bunch of castles the Cathari 532 00:48:34.119 --> 00:48:37.960 did. They got ahold of a bunch of castles. They tucked off walling 533 00:48:38.079 --> 00:48:44.239 up with a bunch of castles. You basically got a Gnostic castle group. 534 00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:51.679 I mean, it's it's getting crazy. They influence Proto Protestants, the Waldensians. 535 00:48:51.840 --> 00:48:54.199 I'm not saying the Waldensians believed everything that the Kathar I believe they did 536 00:48:54.199 --> 00:49:01.239 it. But the basic principles of bogabolism of matter is not a conduit of 537 00:49:01.280 --> 00:49:07.760 grace. There is no established church or state. The church in hierarchy is 538 00:49:07.800 --> 00:49:13.239 bad. Jesus was a secret Gnostic teacher giving a secret wisdom. The public 539 00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:16.400 teaching of the public church isn't that secret teaching. It's this corrupt thing run 540 00:49:16.440 --> 00:49:23.360 by the demiurge or y'all debate out or whatever. You can see a direct 541 00:49:23.840 --> 00:49:36.039 lineal descent from Bogamil Cathari to Protestants. And I got that from Lambert. 542 00:49:36.239 --> 00:49:38.559 That's his argument in the book. It's not my argument. That's his argument 543 00:49:39.119 --> 00:49:49.159 as a mainline medieval historian, going into the actual texts. So Protestantism, 544 00:49:49.639 --> 00:49:58.360 where does it arise from? Multiple influences, but particularly Bogamiolism and Catherism and 545 00:49:58.480 --> 00:50:06.000 Waldensianism and a bunch of other weird movements in the Middle Ages. Now we 546 00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.800 give we'll have to get the Roman Catholic's credit here, because the Roman Calics 547 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:16.960 did in these centuries oppose and reject these movements because they were run by a 548 00:50:16.960 --> 00:50:24.280 bunch of crazies. Okay, yes, please, When you read about the 549 00:50:24.320 --> 00:50:30.440 Cathari and the Bogga Mills. I mean they're nuts. They're completely nuts. 550 00:50:31.079 --> 00:50:37.320 And I'm not saying that the Protestants are as nuts as Catharie and the Boggle 551 00:50:37.320 --> 00:50:40.960 Mills. However, it seems like today they're getting that nutty Okay, So 552 00:50:42.000 --> 00:50:50.920 they're basically getting to full fruition. And that's where uh Papadoccus ends this this 553 00:50:51.079 --> 00:50:59.400 section on the Byzantine theological disputes of the twelfth century and then the spilling over 554 00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:05.239 Ofmalism and Catharism into Europe. All right, so we're going to open it 555 00:51:05.320 --> 00:51:07.159 up now. Again, I haven't read all three of those books. I've 556 00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.760 read several chapters out of all three of those books because I'm really enjoying it. 557 00:51:12.320 --> 00:51:15.360 But if you're interested in these books, I would say that best book 558 00:51:15.400 --> 00:51:19.760 of the three is the Papa Docus Mayandorf book. Second book best is the 559 00:51:19.760 --> 00:51:23.440 Scusinsky book, and then the Louth book is you could skip it, although 560 00:51:23.440 --> 00:51:28.360 it does have some good history on the Franks and all that. All right, 561 00:51:28.360 --> 00:51:30.760 so we're going to open it up to people who call in. The 562 00:51:30.760 --> 00:51:40.480 way it works is you call in on Twitter spaces x now you request to 563 00:51:40.519 --> 00:51:44.000 speak and I'll give you the microphone and you talk for as long as you 564 00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:46.199 want. You can make whatever points you want, but remember, let's keep 565 00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:51.159 to the issues. Okay, it's not about me. I don't care if 566 00:51:51.199 --> 00:51:53.480 you like me or not. It doesn't matter. What's your point, what's 567 00:51:53.519 --> 00:52:04.079 your argument? Where do you take issue with what's been said? And if 568 00:52:04.119 --> 00:52:09.199 you disagree on the especially today, if Protestants disagree on the penal substitution and 569 00:52:09.280 --> 00:52:15.360 atonement issue, I'm ready for that. Let's have that discussion today, because 570 00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:21.800 that's the Protestants are all trying to jump on the fact that Francis has been 571 00:52:21.800 --> 00:52:25.400 making some big, big moves and they're like, ahha, we finally it's 572 00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:29.639 proving Protestantism. No, no, no, no, they ain't proven Protestantism. 573 00:52:29.719 --> 00:52:34.960 I'll tell you that for dang sure. So I hope it will get 574 00:52:34.960 --> 00:52:37.079 some Protestants. By the way, you can support the show by super chats. 575 00:52:37.119 --> 00:52:42.079 If you want to use your superchats, you can do that in the 576 00:52:42.119 --> 00:52:47.400 show description through stream labs. Stream labs is right here. By the way, 577 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:51.400 Catholics, you can also call in if you want to discuss, if 578 00:52:51.440 --> 00:52:53.480 you want to ask some questions you want to bring up some points. If 579 00:52:53.480 --> 00:52:57.840 you want to say that there's something that you disagree with, you can have 580 00:52:57.880 --> 00:52:59.679 the floor. I'm not going to be mean to you. You can say 581 00:52:59.679 --> 00:53:01.840 whatever you want. Looks like we've got a bunch of people ready to go. 582 00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:07.119 I know Father Deacon wants to join me today, so I'll let him 583 00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:14.199 come speak. Let's say who's first up. First up is Stephen, and 584 00:53:14.239 --> 00:53:15.719 then I see you Gnostic. You want to come on and we'll go to 585 00:53:15.800 --> 00:53:30.159 you here in a second. So Steven, what's up? Hello? How's 586 00:53:30.159 --> 00:53:32.639 it going. I'm so sorry. I was in the replies and I was 587 00:53:32.639 --> 00:53:35.280 like, get a disappointed. I was like, oh, come on, 588 00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:38.559 you got to open up. We gotta be an open forum. So I 589 00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:45.159 have I have just two points. My My first point is, so I'm 590 00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:50.039 well, just to prefaces, I'm coming from the Catholic perspective to a Catholic, 591 00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:51.960 you know, believe in all the church teaching, all that chazz. 592 00:53:52.000 --> 00:53:58.480 And I'm also a gay Catholic who accepts the Church teaching. So you know, 593 00:53:58.519 --> 00:54:01.119 I don't you know, I live as her in way that has chased 594 00:54:01.239 --> 00:54:06.840 X y Z all that stuff. So the from you know, from the 595 00:54:06.840 --> 00:54:14.039 Catholics perspective, I would say that big disagreement here would be that you know, 596 00:54:14.119 --> 00:54:17.599 the origin that I would say, the origin of the Catholic understanding of 597 00:54:17.679 --> 00:54:23.119 the universal animedia authority of the pope. Uh, the origin or base of 598 00:54:23.159 --> 00:54:29.719 it is directly is what we would say, is directly from Christ when he 599 00:54:29.760 --> 00:54:32.239 gave Peter the keys of the kingdom and gave him the powers of binding and 600 00:54:32.280 --> 00:54:39.239 loosing universally just specifically to him alone, and then he also gave the power 601 00:54:39.400 --> 00:54:45.320 of binding and loosing to all of the apostles together with Peter. So the 602 00:54:45.320 --> 00:54:52.119 Catholic position would be that we have both the universal enemedia authority of the pope 603 00:54:52.239 --> 00:54:57.320 himself by himself and the success with Peter. And then we have that same 604 00:54:57.360 --> 00:55:01.920 authority when all of the apostles are in communion those who are in communion with 605 00:55:01.920 --> 00:55:06.760 Peter. So that would be like a major difference there. And so when 606 00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:09.039 you know you have a case of let's say a Bishop of Milan is trying 607 00:55:09.079 --> 00:55:13.840 to communicate the Rome, it just wouldn't work, it would just be illegitimate. 608 00:55:14.599 --> 00:55:16.440 And so that's the first pot all on before we move on to your 609 00:55:16.440 --> 00:55:22.159 second point. Can I address that argument? Uh? Sure, yeah, 610 00:55:22.239 --> 00:55:27.920 yeah, sure, So The first point I would say to that is, 611 00:55:28.440 --> 00:55:30.840 uh, if that was the case, Let's say your argument is the case. 612 00:55:30.880 --> 00:55:34.239 And I'm aware of this, this approach. I used to be a 613 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:37.960 Catholic as well, so I understand the argumentation that's used here. Fission away, 614 00:55:38.000 --> 00:55:43.119 Sorry, that's all right. Don't you think that we would we would 615 00:55:43.159 --> 00:55:49.679 see that manifestation in the first say, five, six, seven, eight 616 00:55:49.760 --> 00:55:54.599 centuries of the church. Yeah, there's a few, there's a few texts 617 00:55:54.679 --> 00:55:59.679 that I have that point to that, but yeah, you would see that 618 00:56:00.119 --> 00:56:02.599 early on. Well, but what I'm saying is why would we see things 619 00:56:02.679 --> 00:56:07.320 like, for example, in every one of the Ecumenical councils, there are 620 00:56:07.519 --> 00:56:15.280 canons that the council puts forward that contradict Vatican One's teaching of what the papacy 621 00:56:15.440 --> 00:56:24.159 is. I could say, in response to that, the the Catholic position 622 00:56:24.280 --> 00:56:31.239 is not that each ecumenical council is is not going to change. You know 623 00:56:31.320 --> 00:56:37.039 something that was that was said previously in another ecumenical council. Well, hold 624 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:40.599 on, huh in Vatican one. So wait a minute, don't you believe 625 00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:51.079 the ecumenical councils are infallible and magisterial? Certain I would say that ecumenical councils 626 00:56:51.119 --> 00:56:57.039 are magisterial, but ultimately it's subject to the authority of the Pope, like 627 00:56:57.039 --> 00:57:00.639 in Vatican one when you mentioned in Vatican one, so like in Vatican one 628 00:57:00.760 --> 00:57:08.159 specifically, it says that those nothing be anathema or x y z the people 629 00:57:08.159 --> 00:57:14.679 go astray who seemed seek to appeal to ecumenical councils as if they are an 630 00:57:14.719 --> 00:57:19.800 authority above the pope. So that's what the So that's what Vatican one teaches. 631 00:57:20.239 --> 00:57:25.000 So ultimately, ultimately, if you are a Catholic and you believe in 632 00:57:25.480 --> 00:57:29.679 that means that you believe in in God, the Father, full Spirit, 633 00:57:29.760 --> 00:57:34.599 or whatever, and you believe the Church and the Church that the magisterium, 634 00:57:34.760 --> 00:57:38.880 the head of the magisterial authority on earth is the Pope and so anything. 635 00:57:39.679 --> 00:57:43.440 So as a Catholic, you would believe that. So if I were to 636 00:57:43.440 --> 00:57:46.480 look back at an ecumenical council and I would think that, oh, this 637 00:57:46.679 --> 00:57:53.480 ecumenical council uh contradicts what this what the Pope said later in a different ecumenical 638 00:57:53.519 --> 00:57:58.000 council, then I'll be like, well, all right, too bad. 639 00:57:58.159 --> 00:58:01.039 I'm just going to follow what the Pope's basically, that's that's all my position 640 00:58:01.199 --> 00:58:05.639 be. Yeah, I understand. But what I'm asking is, do you 641 00:58:05.719 --> 00:58:09.559 think that in these ecumenical councils at that time, like in you know, 642 00:58:09.679 --> 00:58:15.480 NICEA three twenty five or all the way up to seven ecumenical councils seven eighty 643 00:58:15.519 --> 00:58:19.280 seven, do you think that those people in those councils do you think they 644 00:58:19.280 --> 00:58:22.280 had the mindset of Vatican One or do you think it's something that evolved. 645 00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:29.159 I'm not sure. I don't think. I think a lot of things do 646 00:58:29.280 --> 00:58:31.679 evolve. I mean, I'm on the leaning. I'm leaning on the fact 647 00:58:31.760 --> 00:58:37.000 that the people are getting to understand a bit more about you know, the 648 00:58:37.079 --> 00:58:40.840 church in relation to ecumenical councils. But just in the beginning of the church, 649 00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:45.639 like we didn't have the setup of ecumenical councils until one hundred, you 650 00:58:45.639 --> 00:58:49.800 know, like some centuries after. So hold on so ecumenical councils. So 651 00:58:49.840 --> 00:58:52.679 you don't think ecumenical councils are absolutely necessary to the functioning of the church. 652 00:58:54.159 --> 00:58:59.920 I definitely think that they have become necessary to the function of the church. 653 00:59:00.440 --> 00:59:02.039 But in the beginning of the church, we have the Council of Jerusalem in 654 00:59:02.199 --> 00:59:07.239 Acts fifteen. But that was like centuries before the first Ecumenical Council, Right, 655 00:59:07.280 --> 00:59:13.519 So how did it? So let's say we're existing in the year three 656 00:59:13.599 --> 00:59:17.280 hundred, Right, I'm a person in the year three hundred, there's no 657 00:59:17.320 --> 00:59:22.840 ecamenical councils. How do I know where the right churches? Do you think 658 00:59:22.880 --> 00:59:27.519 I just do I just go ask the pope? Or how does it work? 659 00:59:27.800 --> 00:59:30.599 Well, one of the things you would ask the pope, you would 660 00:59:30.880 --> 00:59:34.719 speak to the bishop as successor of the apostles. We have to acknowledge that 661 00:59:34.760 --> 00:59:38.440 the church existed before the first Ecumenical Council. I know it existed, right, 662 00:59:38.480 --> 00:59:42.599 I know it existed. But what I'm asking is, how as if 663 00:59:42.639 --> 00:59:47.000 I'm a random person inquiring into Christianity at that time, how do I know 664 00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:50.400 where the true church is? On your view? Because there's not been an 665 00:59:50.400 --> 00:59:53.559 acumenical colt you would know through you would know through a bishop, through any 666 00:59:53.639 --> 00:59:58.119 bishop who's closest to you. You would figure out, Okay, who is 667 00:59:58.159 --> 01:00:00.599 the bishop, who is the successor of the apostles? And that's what the 668 01:00:00.639 --> 01:00:04.920 church did you know for that time? That that's like if you look at 669 01:00:05.119 --> 01:00:08.440 the makeup of the church. So let's say let's follow. So let's say 670 01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:13.760 it's let's say it's three eighty one. We've had one ecumenical council at Nicea. 671 01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:16.639 Let's say it's three eighty one, and I go to the second ecumenical 672 01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:23.519 council and they teach the Trinitarian doctrine that the church accepts. Uh. It's 673 01:00:23.519 --> 01:00:29.719 presided over by Saint Melitias, and it basically affirms the Cappadocian teaching on the 674 01:00:29.719 --> 01:00:34.159 Trinity. If I go to that council and I'm there, and and and 675 01:00:34.159 --> 01:00:37.920 and I see the bishops present, would that be a good way that I 676 01:00:37.440 --> 01:00:43.440 might know to identify the true church? Definitely? Oh? Really? Yeah, 677 01:00:43.480 --> 01:00:46.440 so they became necessary, like they became they became necessary. Okay, 678 01:00:46.599 --> 01:00:50.400 but wait a minute. So there's a problem in this argument though, because 679 01:00:51.599 --> 01:00:55.920 Constantinople I closed out of communion with Rome. It was presided over by a 680 01:00:55.960 --> 01:01:00.039 saint who died out of communey with Rome, and Rome only after that council 681 01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:06.039 a couple of centuries later, as interactively. But you just admit it. 682 01:01:06.079 --> 01:01:09.920 You just admitted that I could know by being at that council, well you 683 01:01:09.960 --> 01:01:15.559 could know, you could do so the papacy isn't necessary to know, no, 684 01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:21.679 or you could know where the true church. You would say that the 685 01:01:21.800 --> 01:01:27.760 council did not go on without being in communion with Rome like it? So 686 01:01:27.920 --> 01:01:31.320 I did it so I could know the Trinity and the true Church without the 687 01:01:31.320 --> 01:01:35.159 pace. If you were to have so, if you were to have, 688 01:01:35.519 --> 01:01:38.519 you have the you have the first Ecumenical Council. Are you saying that the 689 01:01:39.320 --> 01:01:44.599 First Ecumenical Council the Bishop of Rome was not involved in it any way? 690 01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:49.440 Did I say that? No, I'm just asking, I'm just asking what 691 01:01:50.679 --> 01:01:52.960 the second Well, this will address that. So did the Did the Bishop 692 01:01:52.960 --> 01:01:57.199 of Rome have anything to do with that council as it was occurring when it 693 01:01:57.280 --> 01:02:00.519 opened a part of the hold on? Hold on? Who called the council 694 01:02:02.159 --> 01:02:12.239 the emperor and uh they sent leaguates rights? Yes, How does this What 695 01:02:12.280 --> 01:02:15.480 does this have to do with my argument from the second Council? No, 696 01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:21.159 what it has to do with it is to say that through all things, 697 01:02:21.320 --> 01:02:23.599 the Pope was still involved with that council. There was no there was no 698 01:02:23.800 --> 01:02:29.960 there. You didn't have the case. What do you think you're talking about, 699 01:02:30.000 --> 01:02:31.599 Nicia, I'm talking about constant number one and three, eighty. No, 700 01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:36.159 but your argument was the fact that, well, the council can can 701 01:02:36.239 --> 01:02:39.360 go on without the Bishop of Rome. But you did that. That's not 702 01:02:39.440 --> 01:02:44.960 what That's not what happened yesterday. Was involved. It wasn't he was. 703 01:02:45.000 --> 01:02:49.280 I mean, you just said we just had legates, you know, in 704 01:02:49.440 --> 01:02:52.639 Nice exactly. I'm talking about constant the number one, not nicee You. 705 01:02:52.880 --> 01:02:59.360 I said three eighty one. I got confused trying to switch it. I 706 01:02:59.360 --> 01:03:00.920 I got confus is I didn't try to switch it. I want to admit 707 01:03:01.000 --> 01:03:04.599 that I did not try to switch it. I got confused with the cities. 708 01:03:04.880 --> 01:03:09.320 Okay, but you're saying that in the council of Constantinople. Was the 709 01:03:09.320 --> 01:03:14.320 pope involved in that council, No, it closed out of commune with him. 710 01:03:14.760 --> 01:03:17.639 The saint that presided over it was Saint Olidos. Died out, let 711 01:03:17.719 --> 01:03:23.239 me finish, died out of communion with Rome, and Rome retroactively accepted Constantinople 712 01:03:23.800 --> 01:03:29.400 a couple centuries later. Well, yes, but you already admitted that. 713 01:03:29.760 --> 01:03:32.480 How does that contradict what I mentioned Because you just admitted that I don't need 714 01:03:32.760 --> 01:03:37.159 because I don't need the papacy to recognize the true council and to recognize the 715 01:03:37.159 --> 01:03:38.920 doctor in the Trinity. No, no, that's not what I said. 716 01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:42.480 I said you, I said you did say that. You asked, you 717 01:03:42.559 --> 01:03:46.079 asked if ecumenical councils were necessary to know the one true faith, and I 718 01:03:46.079 --> 01:03:51.039 said that they became necessary, okay, and I gave you no. No, 719 01:03:51.159 --> 01:03:53.480 you said earlier that the papacy was necessary for ecumenical councils. That was 720 01:03:53.519 --> 01:03:57.320 your first argument, you get on here, Yes it was that was your 721 01:03:57.320 --> 01:04:00.639 first argument. No, yes, it was. No, I you said, 722 01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:08.000 Vatican One teaches that ultimately ecumenical councils are the ones confirmed by the Pope. 723 01:04:08.280 --> 01:04:13.960 Well, yes, exactly, thank you, right, But doesn't mean 724 01:04:14.039 --> 01:04:16.519 that it has to be confirmed by the pope at the same time as the 725 01:04:16.559 --> 01:04:23.039 council happened. He can retroactively acknowledge a council. So if but you already 726 01:04:23.039 --> 01:04:28.079 admitted that, you already you're just you're just coping. You already you're already 727 01:04:28.079 --> 01:04:33.000 admitted it is a coach. You already admitted accepting it. It's not up 728 01:04:33.000 --> 01:04:38.239 to him to accept it. That means it wasn't ecumenical until he accepted it. 729 01:04:38.920 --> 01:04:42.159 That's what I mean. If you're not going to shut up. I'm 730 01:04:42.119 --> 01:04:44.199 gonna gonna bot you. Are you gonna let me finish it? Okay, 731 01:04:44.320 --> 01:04:46.119 I'll go to the next point. Then no, no, I'm not done 732 01:04:46.119 --> 01:04:51.199 with this point. I'm not done. So you don't want to stay here 733 01:04:51.239 --> 01:04:56.199 because this is devastating to you. I asked you, if you don't hush, 734 01:04:56.760 --> 01:04:59.800 I'm gonna boot you. I asked you if I could know the truth 735 01:05:00.079 --> 01:05:03.559 Church and the true Faith at Constantinople one in three eighty one, and you 736 01:05:03.639 --> 01:05:08.639 said yes, because it's an ecumenical council. Then you revised all that to 737 01:05:08.679 --> 01:05:11.960 say, well, it's not an ecumenical council until the pope affirms it. 738 01:05:12.039 --> 01:05:16.239 But I'm making a different point. Do you think that Constantinople one thought they 739 01:05:16.239 --> 01:05:26.559 were doing an ecumenical council? I am, I'm not sure if. In 740 01:05:26.559 --> 01:05:30.559 my opinion, if that is, if that's one of the ecumenical councils, 741 01:05:30.840 --> 01:05:35.920 then I think that people involved, you know, whatever they particularly, why 742 01:05:36.199 --> 01:05:43.320 why were they charging forward with us without Rome? I'm not sure? So 743 01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:48.119 were they heretics and schismatics? I think if you, I think those who 744 01:05:48.159 --> 01:05:51.239 are outside of communion with Roman, so the heritage, so the heritics, 745 01:05:51.239 --> 01:05:56.599 and schismatics. I mean, would are that you just said? You just 746 01:05:56.639 --> 01:05:59.880 said they are, So you think no, I said, if I think 747 01:06:00.079 --> 01:06:04.760 if you are doing something outside of communion with Rome, that's them, that's 748 01:06:04.840 --> 01:06:11.519 them, that's schism Mmm. So they died in schism So you think that 749 01:06:11.599 --> 01:06:18.079 a schismatic council taught the Trinitarian doctrine for the whole church? I think that 750 01:06:18.400 --> 01:06:29.760 if somebody did the council purposefully in schism they were they died later recognized as 751 01:06:29.800 --> 01:06:32.719 true and ecumenical, then it was just ecumenical. So you get your doctrine 752 01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:38.159 from a schismatic council. So you think that schismatics provides you with the trinitarian 753 01:06:38.199 --> 01:06:44.239 doctrine of the church. Yeah, how is that sensible with anything in the 754 01:06:44.320 --> 01:06:50.199 Roman Catholic system? Because the Pope recognizes which councils are ecumenical. That's why 755 01:06:50.199 --> 01:06:53.679 it's consistent. Well, I mean, you're just stating your position, and 756 01:06:53.719 --> 01:06:57.559 I'm showing you that it's a nonsense position. How it's consistent and it is. 757 01:06:57.599 --> 01:07:01.039 So it's not consistent because orthodoxy doesn't come from Rome. It comes from 758 01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:06.159 schismatics, is what you just admitted? Do you think the Trinity is an 759 01:07:06.119 --> 01:07:11.880 important doctrine? Is the Trinity important doctrine? If the pope did not, 760 01:07:12.079 --> 01:07:15.519 if the pope did not accept that, is the Trinity an important doctrine? 761 01:07:15.960 --> 01:07:18.239 Yes? Okay necessary? Where did it? Where did the church derive that 762 01:07:18.320 --> 01:07:27.800 doctrine? From? What council? What council did they derive the doctrine in 763 01:07:27.760 --> 01:07:30.079 the Trinity? I don't know which council. I don't know which council define 764 01:07:30.079 --> 01:07:34.719 that. Yeah, dishonesty because we've just been sitting here talking to now. 765 01:07:34.960 --> 01:07:45.400 Dishonesty because we just went through the council. Constantinople three eighty one Gnostic informant 766 01:07:55.800 --> 01:08:00.599 Gotta, I'm mute, dude, Hey going day? Can you speak up 767 01:08:00.599 --> 01:08:05.559 a little? I barely hear you. You can't hear me barely? Where's 768 01:08:05.559 --> 01:08:09.360 the mic settings in this thing? You know? I mean I can hear 769 01:08:09.360 --> 01:08:13.960 you, just some muffled like you're in a bathroom or something. You on 770 01:08:14.000 --> 01:08:18.000 the potty, argue on the pot I'm actually in front of my microphone. 771 01:08:18.720 --> 01:08:25.039 Oh okay, is it better though? It sounds like it's coming through internal 772 01:08:25.079 --> 01:08:27.920 mic is or do you have a real like a mic mic. I'm holding 773 01:08:27.960 --> 01:08:30.560 a mic mic in my on right now. I don't. I don't know 774 01:08:30.560 --> 01:08:34.279 how to change the settings on on Twitter, so I don't either. Anyway 775 01:08:34.479 --> 01:08:38.640 I can, I'll turn you up as loud as I can hear you ahead. 776 01:08:39.720 --> 01:08:41.560 Well, No, I just want to start off by saying I've never 777 01:08:41.560 --> 01:08:44.920 actually had a time a chance to actually talk. I actually like your content, 778 01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:47.199 man, I think for for for a lot of Christians don't go deep 779 01:08:47.279 --> 01:08:51.159 into the ancient history. I see you getting the Heraclitis and the plates and 780 01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:55.800 me and stuff. I actually like that a lot. I think we have 781 01:08:55.880 --> 01:08:58.479 more in common, even though I'm not a Christian per se, I think, 782 01:08:58.479 --> 01:09:01.520 I, I, uh, we have more in common on some of 783 01:09:01.560 --> 01:09:06.279 the stuff that like you are exactly going up against, like that Protestant sphears 784 01:09:06.279 --> 01:09:11.319 and stuff like that. But because I think they're just kind of that that's 785 01:09:11.359 --> 01:09:15.760 just not the I get where you're coming from, even though I don't subscribe 786 01:09:15.800 --> 01:09:19.880 to orthodox Christianity. And if you want to keep it in topic, I 787 01:09:19.920 --> 01:09:24.920 would ask you, like you so you would agree that these ideas of the 788 01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:29.479 triad and the monad go back to the pre Socratics, right, No, 789 01:09:29.479 --> 01:09:34.359 no, no, So if I just pulled up text to show you primary 790 01:09:34.399 --> 01:09:36.800 sources and you would just say it's not real. How would that work? 791 01:09:38.359 --> 01:09:42.199 No, I'm just gonna argue that you're making a word concept fallacy, equivalence 792 01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:45.840 fallacy by thinking that Plato's tryad has anything to do with the Christian triad. 793 01:09:46.920 --> 01:09:55.199 Well, I think the Christians are adopting these models and putting Christian and sort 794 01:09:55.239 --> 01:10:00.880 of applying it to Christianity. Because the math is the ma. There's no 795 01:10:00.640 --> 01:10:03.560 it doesn't matter what you apply to it. The math is to say the 796 01:10:03.600 --> 01:10:06.880 same regards the math is the math. I mean the Trinity. The doctor 797 01:10:06.880 --> 01:10:10.800 of the Trinity is not equivalent to math. So I don't know, but 798 01:10:10.960 --> 01:10:14.239 I don't buy this argument. A monad making a do odd and then a 799 01:10:14.319 --> 01:10:19.600 trinity is the same math. A monad which makes a do odd and an 800 01:10:19.680 --> 01:10:29.960 iad this is the diad. Yeah, a diet. Okay, But I'm 801 01:10:30.039 --> 01:10:32.800 aware of what Pythagoras says. I know what I know what it's in Greek. 802 01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:35.439 That's why I said that, I know what Plotona says, right, 803 01:10:35.479 --> 01:10:41.399 so I understand. I understand what they're saying. And they use terminology that 804 01:10:41.760 --> 01:10:45.560 sometimes overlaps. But terminology does not mean that the reference is the same. 805 01:10:47.720 --> 01:10:56.039 Okay, So what do you what's so different about the Trinity. And so, 806 01:10:56.119 --> 01:10:59.159 for one, the Trinity comes from the Old Testament, doesn't come from 807 01:10:59.159 --> 01:11:02.640 Plato, the Old Tests and where all throughout the Old Testament, I have 808 01:11:02.800 --> 01:11:06.359 entire lectures on the Trinity in the Old Testament. Interesting, I'd love to 809 01:11:06.439 --> 01:11:11.319 check that out. We can revisit that. Can you give me one example. 810 01:11:12.199 --> 01:11:15.359 I'm not saying a lie, I'm just curious. Yeah, I mean, 811 01:11:15.359 --> 01:11:18.680 you can look at the Book of Genesis alone. The Trinity is presented 812 01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:24.159 probably twenty to thirty times in the Book of Genesis. So you have Genesis 813 01:11:24.199 --> 01:11:29.119 won the presentation of the logos or the Angel of God walking with Adam and 814 01:11:29.159 --> 01:11:32.000 even the garden. We know that because we're told that the Father has no 815 01:11:32.119 --> 01:11:35.920 form, so no one sees God at any time, according to John five. 816 01:11:36.359 --> 01:11:40.520 So who was it that was walking in the garden with Adam and Eve. 817 01:11:40.840 --> 01:11:43.680 It can only be the one who is the form of God, the 818 01:11:43.720 --> 01:11:46.439 Son of God. So that's just one example. I'm not done. I'm 819 01:11:46.439 --> 01:11:49.920 not done here. I'm not done. So you can go to Genesis twelve, 820 01:11:49.960 --> 01:11:56.359 fifteen seventeen, all the interactions with Abraham. You'll find that there's this 821 01:11:56.560 --> 01:12:00.239 second person that's present there interacting with Abraham, who is called the Angel of 822 01:12:00.319 --> 01:12:05.800 Yahweh, the Angel of the Lord. When you get to the chapter where 823 01:12:05.920 --> 01:12:11.439 Jacob wrestles, who's he wrestling with, He's wrestling with the Son of God. 824 01:12:11.920 --> 01:12:14.239 All the way up to I mean, there's many more examples of the 825 01:12:14.239 --> 01:12:17.640 Angel of the Lord. And the Spirit has mentioned distinctly in Genesis as well. 826 01:12:18.880 --> 01:12:24.159 And so that's a proto early triadic doctrine for us. But I have, 827 01:12:24.600 --> 01:12:28.600 if you're interested, I have about a three hour lecture going through the 828 01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:30.600 whole of the Old Testament, all the way up through the Book of Judges. 829 01:12:31.520 --> 01:12:35.000 There's a triad in I mean, the triads present in the chapter with 830 01:12:35.239 --> 01:12:40.520 Sampson and Manoa is president, in the chapter with Gideon and Judges. The 831 01:12:40.560 --> 01:12:44.359 triad is in many places in the Psalms of David. It's in the first 832 01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:47.920 three chapters of Zechariah, It's in Ezekiel one through ten, on and on 833 01:12:47.760 --> 01:12:51.199 and on. The Triads present in multiple chapters of Isaiah. I mean, 834 01:12:51.239 --> 01:12:55.960 I can keep going, but it's all throughout the Old Testament, all right. 835 01:12:56.159 --> 01:12:59.159 So what I'm gonna say, what the first one is, why wouldn't 836 01:12:59.159 --> 01:13:02.119 any or any of those Actually, why why don't we see in the prophets 837 01:13:02.479 --> 01:13:06.279 and talking about this? Why don't have they do they do? So what 838 01:13:06.479 --> 01:13:13.119 do you mean? Like example again, Let'll say Ezekiel one through ten. 839 01:13:13.640 --> 01:13:15.960 Ezekiel talks about the Son of Man, one like the Son of God, 840 01:13:16.000 --> 01:13:19.760 who is the image of the glory of God, riding on the chariot, 841 01:13:19.800 --> 01:13:24.439 and the presence of the Spirit is there with him. So all three persons, 842 01:13:25.039 --> 01:13:27.560 just in the example of Ezekiel one through ten. And I use that 843 01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:33.279 example because that one specifically identified hold on, it's specifically identical. It specifically 844 01:13:33.359 --> 01:13:40.920 identifies the second person or the second the angel as one like the Son of 845 01:13:41.000 --> 01:13:44.600 Man, one like the Son of God. So we know that that angel 846 01:13:44.640 --> 01:13:51.239 is identified as the logos the second Well, okay, the logos comes from 847 01:13:51.239 --> 01:13:57.880 Greek, but it doesn't the word logos comes from Greek. But when John 848 01:13:58.000 --> 01:14:03.760 uses logos, it's from the Hebrew wisdom literature of Solomon. Oh, I 849 01:14:03.800 --> 01:14:08.199 see what you're going with the song. Okay, that text that's interesting. 850 01:14:09.359 --> 01:14:12.039 Uh, you know what, I wouldn't even I wouldn't even be opposed to 851 01:14:12.119 --> 01:14:16.000 John using that because I'd say Filo, I would obviously be going that route 852 01:14:16.279 --> 01:14:20.439 that's a later text, that's that's in the Hellenistic times, And I can 853 01:14:20.520 --> 01:14:26.600 see why that text, that Solomon Wisdom text is uh is fowering from the 854 01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:29.720 same concepts as the pre Socratics. In my opinion, well, I think 855 01:14:29.720 --> 01:14:34.000 that there was exchange between probably Jews and uh, you know Hellenic culture. 856 01:14:34.119 --> 01:14:38.039 We know that. I mean you mentioned Filo is a good example of that. 857 01:14:38.079 --> 01:14:44.000 But the principle of what's in for example, Proverbs or Ecclesiastes or Syruc 858 01:14:44.039 --> 01:14:46.600 I mean that's prior to Filo. So yeah, oh yeah, exactly, 859 01:14:46.640 --> 01:14:49.560 Filo would be followered from that too. So I wouldn't I wouldn't have a 860 01:14:49.560 --> 01:14:54.600 problem with that, but I'd still I still think you're still we're still we're 861 01:14:54.640 --> 01:14:59.960 still in the same We're still in the same area of the pre Socratics influencing 862 01:15:00.119 --> 01:15:06.399 these texts, what texts, well, the Wisdom of Solomon for the long 863 01:15:06.760 --> 01:15:11.720 the pre Socratics influenced the Wisdom of Solomon. Yeah, that text is probably 864 01:15:11.720 --> 01:15:15.680 written around two hundred PC, maybe at the as well. I mean that's 865 01:15:15.800 --> 01:15:18.479 liberal scholarships date that, but I mean I don't I mean, do you 866 01:15:18.520 --> 01:15:24.560 accept do you accept every liberal scholars dating of everything. I disagree with liberal 867 01:15:24.600 --> 01:15:28.680 scholars on so many things, but not but that particular. There's I mean, 868 01:15:28.720 --> 01:15:31.520 I'm pretty decent at Hebrew and Greek, and there's ways to look at 869 01:15:31.520 --> 01:15:35.079 these writings and see what's how they're written, the things that are in them, 870 01:15:35.439 --> 01:15:40.079 and you can met line them up with texts from that time period. 871 01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:42.520 It would be like me's being like, let's up, y'all, how y'all 872 01:15:42.520 --> 01:15:45.239 doing tonight, Let's go party, and like write that in the text and 873 01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:48.199 you can speak saying it's from sixteen hundred. It's just not it's from it's 874 01:15:48.199 --> 01:15:53.439 a modern So you're telling me, you're you're telling me you're a textual scholar. 875 01:15:54.199 --> 01:15:56.479 I'm not a textual scholar. But I well, what you just said, 876 01:15:56.560 --> 01:16:00.640 but what you just claim been shown. I've been shown those parts contextual 877 01:16:00.720 --> 01:16:04.359 scholars, and I'm convinced of their right. Oh okay, so appeal to 878 01:16:04.399 --> 01:16:08.279 authority. Wait a minute, So you've been well, I've been shown I've 879 01:16:08.279 --> 01:16:13.960 been shown hold on, hold on, So so okay, well, so 880 01:16:14.039 --> 01:16:18.279 if so if I just say I can I've been shown it by scholars that 881 01:16:18.359 --> 01:16:21.359 say the opposite of what what do we do there? Then we pull the 882 01:16:21.399 --> 01:16:25.159 textuff and look at it and then we give examples. I would do that 883 01:16:25.199 --> 01:16:30.359 with you. Well, my contention will be that how we view the dating 884 01:16:30.439 --> 01:16:34.560 of these texts is going to be largely dependent on what we presuppose about those 885 01:16:34.600 --> 01:16:40.560 texts. So if you think that the Bible isn't inspired, for example, 886 01:16:40.720 --> 01:16:44.239 right, then that that person is going to favor the scholars that say that 887 01:16:44.279 --> 01:16:46.039 the Bible is full of errors and it's written late, all this kind of 888 01:16:46.079 --> 01:16:50.800 stuff. Right, So it's really not ultimately because we could throw scholars back 889 01:16:50.840 --> 01:16:56.359 and forth all day long, how would we let me get to the crux 890 01:16:56.359 --> 01:17:00.800 of it is that the big difference isn't about the terminology or even cross pollination 891 01:17:00.920 --> 01:17:03.560 between cultures. Because I could admit that there's you know, in the Hellenic 892 01:17:03.600 --> 01:17:08.520 period, there's a lot of influence. You have filos definitely influenced by that 893 01:17:08.560 --> 01:17:13.920 stuff, But the principles are already in Genesis and Psalms, which are prior 894 01:17:14.000 --> 01:17:19.520 to anything in potentially Hellenistically influenced texts like Wisdom of Solomon. Yeah. I 895 01:17:19.560 --> 01:17:24.560 don't have a problem with you. You're interpreting that way. I see what 896 01:17:24.560 --> 01:17:30.000 you're doing there. But my problem with that is why don't we have more 897 01:17:30.199 --> 01:17:33.000 definitive texts that come out and just say, hey, God is a trinity, 898 01:17:33.760 --> 01:17:38.439 instead of us having to look at and then remap the trinity onto vague 899 01:17:38.560 --> 01:17:42.239 versus. That sort of could apply. It could not well, because God 900 01:17:42.319 --> 01:17:45.640 progressively revealed himself over time, and so for example, even in the Old 901 01:17:45.640 --> 01:17:49.439 Testament, Isaiah would have known a lot more than Abraham, right, But 902 01:17:49.479 --> 01:17:55.439 it wouldn't be we wouldn't conclude that because Abraham didn't know everything that Isaiah knew 903 01:17:55.760 --> 01:18:00.119 that Abraham didn't know anything right. So likewise we wouldn't conclude that because the 904 01:18:00.199 --> 01:18:04.079 Old Testament doesn't use all the terminology that's used in the Christian you know, 905 01:18:04.199 --> 01:18:10.199 theological determination period of nicea or something like that, it doesn't follow from that 906 01:18:10.199 --> 01:18:13.279 that they didn't teach the doctor of the Trinity. That's why when you go 907 01:18:13.359 --> 01:18:17.239 to the New Testament, most of almost all of the argumentation of the New 908 01:18:17.239 --> 01:18:21.920 Testament writers for the trinity or for what they're teaching of the proto trinity is 909 01:18:21.920 --> 01:18:26.760 from the Old Testament. And when you read the Church Fathers, they're making 910 01:18:26.800 --> 01:18:30.039 all these arguments that I make. They make the argument that the Old Testament 911 01:18:30.399 --> 01:18:31.960 teaches the Trinity. I didn't get this. I didn't make this up. 912 01:18:32.000 --> 01:18:36.560 I got it from them. Yeah, no, I get what you're saying 913 01:18:36.560 --> 01:18:43.319 that. Yeah, that would be my contention with what you were saying. 914 01:18:43.560 --> 01:18:45.279 You said you want to keep with the topic, so I'm not going to 915 01:18:45.359 --> 01:18:47.119 do rail anything. Well, I mean, you can talk about whatever you 916 01:18:47.119 --> 01:18:51.880 want. I mean, why should I believe gnosticism. I'm not a gnostic 917 01:18:53.079 --> 01:18:58.359 in the way you think I'm. Okay, Well, in a nas and 918 01:18:58.680 --> 01:19:02.520 the people who are called NASA sticks by erin as and hypologists didn't call themselves. 919 01:19:03.439 --> 01:19:08.520 Why should we believe your view? Well, I don't. I don't 920 01:19:08.520 --> 01:19:11.800 really want you to believe my view. I don't have a I'm not I'm 921 01:19:11.800 --> 01:19:15.479 not like a going out and trying to evangelize my world. Well, I 922 01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:17.560 mean, do you think your view is true? Yes, okay, I 923 01:19:17.640 --> 01:19:20.680 mean presumably if you believe it, you think it's true. Right, Well, 924 01:19:20.760 --> 01:19:25.479 I think it's true to what I know and what my what I what 925 01:19:25.560 --> 01:19:28.960 I have knowledge of right now? I don't have it. I'm not dogmatic. 926 01:19:29.680 --> 01:19:33.319 I will if I get presented with evidence that is convincing, I change. 927 01:19:34.159 --> 01:19:38.520 But you believe that like the view I have is not true so, 928 01:19:38.760 --> 01:19:44.920 like, on what what basis would you say that I should believe gnoscissism or 929 01:19:44.920 --> 01:19:46.560 do you not think that people should be Maybe you think that they that you 930 01:19:46.560 --> 01:19:49.359 shouldn't convert people. I don't know. I actually don't. I don't have 931 01:19:49.359 --> 01:19:53.319 a problem with it, with your theology or what you believe in. I 932 01:19:53.840 --> 01:19:58.680 actually respect that you are doing a lot of the work and actually looking deeper 933 01:19:58.720 --> 01:20:03.199 into these things and not just using complete fallacious Uh. I want it to 934 01:20:03.199 --> 01:20:06.920 be true. So it is like inspiring philosophy does. But if we have 935 01:20:08.079 --> 01:20:10.760 I'd almost to say, like what I disagree with you about, it would 936 01:20:10.800 --> 01:20:16.600 be that Jesus being God and they're being and applying in my in my opinion, 937 01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:21.640 but I think it's that the Bagaria triads onto Jesus and Yahweh and making 938 01:20:21.680 --> 01:20:26.479 a triunity there. Okay, hold on there. So do you think the 939 01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:30.880 Old Testament has any of those Messianic prophecies where this Angel of the Lord is 940 01:20:30.920 --> 01:20:34.000 present being called the face of Yahweh, being called the messenger of the Covenant? 941 01:20:34.039 --> 01:20:38.359 I mean, does that does that exist or not? Yes? And 942 01:20:38.520 --> 01:20:42.920 you also having job, We've got the sons of God all arranged themselves in 943 01:20:42.920 --> 01:20:45.279 front of in front of Yahweh. Okay, are the sons of God called 944 01:20:46.720 --> 01:20:50.119 they're called the sons about They're called those sons about Bennie Levine and Hebrews. 945 01:20:50.239 --> 01:20:55.720 Are they called Yahweh? No? Okay, but the Angel of the Lord 946 01:20:55.760 --> 01:21:00.039 is called Yahweh. Which text you're talking about? The text where Yahweh turns 947 01:21:00.079 --> 01:21:08.640 his face to Gideon. Okay? Yeah, so, and according to you 948 01:21:08.680 --> 01:21:13.479 know, traditional Judaism, it would be that's that's Yahweh presenting himself. Okay. 949 01:21:13.600 --> 01:21:16.680 Nobody sees Yahweh at any time in traditional Judaism. It used to be. 950 01:21:16.840 --> 01:21:19.840 It used to be that way. Yahweh has no form, So what 951 01:21:19.880 --> 01:21:26.359 do you mean Yahweh doesn't have a film after they start getting influenced by the 952 01:21:26.359 --> 01:21:30.319 Presocratics. Before that, Yahweh had a form, and he also had idols 953 01:21:30.359 --> 01:21:33.279 of him. You also images of him. He looked like Zeus. No, 954 01:21:33.359 --> 01:21:39.039 I mean Moses says that you saw no form. Moses didn't see his 955 01:21:39.079 --> 01:21:42.520 face, he saw the back of him. Yeah, that's the Angel of 956 01:21:42.560 --> 01:21:45.079 the Lord. Jesus says that it was him talking to Moses. But I'm 957 01:21:45.079 --> 01:21:48.000 just trying to say that you're wrong about what the Old Testament it self teaches, 958 01:21:48.079 --> 01:21:53.119 it doesn't teach that at one time Yahweh had idols. Where are you 959 01:21:53.119 --> 01:21:56.840 getting that? No? There is yet No I would disagree with you in 960 01:21:56.880 --> 01:21:59.600 that, Where are you getting that? No? I didn't say the Old 961 01:21:59.600 --> 01:22:02.439 Testament. I'm talking about when I look at the evidence of early Judy or 962 01:22:02.439 --> 01:22:09.039 early Israelite religion, of worship of Yahweh in the Sinai region and in Jerusalem. 963 01:22:09.079 --> 01:22:12.520 Okay, well, but I'm talking about the text and what they teach 964 01:22:12.640 --> 01:22:15.960 right so in and those to me that when he comes in those forms it's 965 01:22:15.960 --> 01:22:20.560 an angel. It doesn't necessarily means Jesus. Okay, who is the Angel 966 01:22:20.640 --> 01:22:26.720 the Lord throughout those passages? You don't think he's identified as thee what a 967 01:22:26.720 --> 01:22:30.760 lot of angels? You understand that the word angel doesn't always mean a created 968 01:22:30.800 --> 01:22:35.760 being. Well, angels Greek for messenger, the son of God. It 969 01:22:35.760 --> 01:22:41.159 means son of God. Some of God is you say son of God and 970 01:22:41.279 --> 01:22:43.680 to a Jewish person it just means angel. It's the same. It's the 971 01:22:43.680 --> 01:22:46.520 same thing. So what does that have to do with whether our teaching is 972 01:22:46.800 --> 01:22:50.720 or what I'm saying? And how do I know it's necessarily Jesus about saying 973 01:22:50.760 --> 01:22:55.760 that it's Jesus. So your sight, because a Jew today doesn't believe that 974 01:22:55.840 --> 01:22:58.960 that's your story. I'm not talking to talk about myself. I'm saying like 975 01:22:59.239 --> 01:23:03.760 in Hebrew benyng he means son of God and Greek angel angelos means it means 976 01:23:03.840 --> 01:23:08.399 angel. Yeah, But that's why I'm trying to tell you that the Angel 977 01:23:08.479 --> 01:23:12.560 of the Lord is referred to as God as seeing God, as seeing Yahweh 978 01:23:12.840 --> 01:23:16.279 in the texts. Yeah, and that that could be any angel an angel. 979 01:23:16.960 --> 01:23:21.319 No, not any angel. No, not any angel can be called 980 01:23:21.399 --> 01:23:29.000 Yahweh. That would be idolatry. Well, it's if it's a messenger of 981 01:23:29.079 --> 01:23:31.800 Yahweh, it would be called that. It's not his name is Yahweh. 982 01:23:33.159 --> 01:23:39.760 I God says in Exodus three and in twenty three that he put his name 983 01:23:39.920 --> 01:23:45.359 in the Angel of the Lord that went before them into Palestine. Right, 984 01:23:45.640 --> 01:23:48.199 God's name cannot be shared with creatures, so it's not a creator being, 985 01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.840 So why can he be shared with Jesus? Then the Son of God is 986 01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:55.840 not a creature. He's the second person God is. That's what I mean, 987 01:23:55.880 --> 01:23:57.920 Like, that's my problem. I'm not trying to be a dick. 988 01:23:57.960 --> 01:24:00.279 I'm just saying. The problem is, why would it have to be You're 989 01:24:00.319 --> 01:24:02.720 not even aware of what the what our view is, and so you're like, 990 01:24:03.119 --> 01:24:08.079 I didn't even know what You didn't even know that we argue the Trinity 991 01:24:08.159 --> 01:24:10.560 from the Old Testament first of all, so you weren't aware of that. 992 01:24:11.319 --> 01:24:15.359 So what I'm trying to explain to you is that the Trinity is already there 993 01:24:15.399 --> 01:24:19.600 in the Old It's throughout all of these passages. Jesus is go backwards and 994 01:24:19.720 --> 01:24:25.000 map it's not. It's not going backwards. I'm explaining from those texts why 995 01:24:25.039 --> 01:24:28.359 this is the case. Well, why do we do this? Why don't 996 01:24:28.359 --> 01:24:30.520 I look at send me your video where you show you all your examples of 997 01:24:30.560 --> 01:24:34.960 the Old Testament trinity and we can talk about it. How about that? 998 01:24:36.119 --> 01:24:39.840 Well, I mean in Zacharia one, two and three, you have the 999 01:24:39.840 --> 01:24:44.000 Father, you have the Angel of the Lord standing there ministering at the altar, 1000 01:24:44.079 --> 01:24:46.720 and then you have the presence of the Holy Spirit. That's one example 1001 01:24:46.760 --> 01:24:53.319 of many. How would you exitute that? I would exitet that exactly how 1002 01:24:53.319 --> 01:24:57.720 it says, there's an Angel of the Lord and he's ministering in front of 1003 01:24:57.840 --> 01:25:00.600 Zeruba bell and the High priest josh Interesting, you know what is what he's 1004 01:25:00.640 --> 01:25:05.640 called there? Yes, sua yes, yeah? Is that Jesus. That's 1005 01:25:05.640 --> 01:25:09.199 not Jesus. No, it's the high priest. That's a common name. 1006 01:25:09.760 --> 01:25:13.079 Do you know what a type? Yeah, the common note? Yes, 1007 01:25:13.119 --> 01:25:17.000 you is not a common name for high priests. No it is. No, 1008 01:25:17.159 --> 01:25:21.039 it's not. It's a name of a person. It's Joshua in the 1009 01:25:21.079 --> 01:25:26.920 Old Testament. It's not a common name for high priests. Okay, I'm 1010 01:25:26.960 --> 01:25:29.720 aware of that, but i'm not. That doesn't make it a common name. 1011 01:25:29.840 --> 01:25:32.479 It's a specific name for you. If you're not. If you're going 1012 01:25:32.520 --> 01:25:35.199 to keep interrupting me, then what's the point of having this interaction. I'm 1013 01:25:35.239 --> 01:25:41.840 just saying, have you read Isaiah? Yes? Okay? How many chapters 1014 01:25:41.840 --> 01:25:45.560 are there where they taught where it talks about the messenger of Yahweh and the 1015 01:25:45.560 --> 01:25:55.199 Holy Spirit? How many chapters total are there any? So you're not even 1016 01:25:55.199 --> 01:25:58.039 aware of these texts, but you know that ext of Jesus of these how 1017 01:25:58.039 --> 01:26:01.920 many chapters with the Holy Spirit it you're not even aware of these texts, 1018 01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:05.520 But you're an expert on these texts. When I say I was an expert 1019 01:26:05.520 --> 01:26:09.079 on these texts. I told you. You said at the beginning of this 1020 01:26:09.159 --> 01:26:11.960 talk that you know Hebrew and Greek, and you knew how to explain all 1021 01:26:12.000 --> 01:26:15.800 these texts. I don't. I do know some Hebrew and some Greed pretty 1022 01:26:15.800 --> 01:26:16.960 good at it. I'm not going to call myself an expert at Okay, 1023 01:26:17.000 --> 01:26:23.439 So is is this mentioned anywhere in Isaiah? It's one mention I keep asking 1024 01:26:23.439 --> 01:26:27.000 you. That is one mention what I just asked you about. Stop playing 1025 01:26:27.039 --> 01:26:31.279 games. They don't know what you said. The Father, the messenger of 1026 01:26:31.359 --> 01:26:34.520 Yahweh, and the Spirit does that? Is that in Isaiah? Do those 1027 01:26:34.560 --> 01:26:40.640 things come up? It does? Okay? Who is that or what is 1028 01:26:40.680 --> 01:26:44.840 that? That's an angel? An angel of the reason why you understand that 1029 01:26:45.119 --> 01:26:49.159 I'm talking you're an idiot I'm talking about shut off, just shut up. 1030 01:26:49.199 --> 01:26:55.359 I'm talking about Messianic prophecies because you won't stop and listen what I'm arguing. 1031 01:26:56.319 --> 01:27:01.880 I'm trying to tell you they're Messianic prophecies. You understand that the prophecies there. 1032 01:27:02.039 --> 01:27:05.680 You know, the original context of Isaiah is both the people of Israel. 1033 01:27:06.119 --> 01:27:10.640 So as the selfing servant, it's not about the people of Israel, 1034 01:27:10.680 --> 01:27:13.800 It's about both the people. It's about both the people of Israel. Are 1035 01:27:13.800 --> 01:27:15.800 you just shut up and listen if you're just going to keep interrupting, I 1036 01:27:15.840 --> 01:27:18.960 know that it's about the collective people. It's also about the Messiah. So 1037 01:27:19.079 --> 01:27:24.359 everything you argue is is. Everything you're arguing is false either ores it's like 1038 01:27:24.399 --> 01:27:27.279 either this or that. Do you understand that typology can be both? And 1039 01:27:27.880 --> 01:27:31.119 I agree that it could be both and a candy both. Right, right, 1040 01:27:31.159 --> 01:27:34.720 final with that as long as you have except that leading up to three 1041 01:27:34.840 --> 01:27:39.039 is about the people being taken over. You understand that I'm not talking about 1042 01:27:39.039 --> 01:27:42.840 Isaiah fifty three Isaiah forty two, which is a Messianic prophecy. Just sorry, 1043 01:27:42.840 --> 01:27:54.920 all right, We're done. You won't stop interrupting. Goodbye, Next 1044 01:27:55.000 --> 01:28:00.000 up, t JA. So the point was that the Jews believe in Messianic 1045 01:28:00.039 --> 01:28:02.760 prophecies in terms of these texts. Now he says, oh, they're not 1046 01:28:02.800 --> 01:28:09.079 actually Messianic prophecies, that's all post hawk or whatever. Okay, So let's 1047 01:28:09.119 --> 01:28:30.720 look at what I'm talking about. Since he wouldn't shut up, So you 1048 01:28:30.800 --> 01:28:39.600 notice that it's always based on these word concept fallacies. Right, The news 1049 01:28:39.720 --> 01:28:43.840 essmate uses the word logos that must mean pre socratic, esoteric, mystical, 1050 01:28:43.920 --> 01:28:46.840 gibber, jabber. It cannot mean what we mean, right, so it 1051 01:28:46.840 --> 01:28:50.520 means anything but what we mean. What is Isaiah forty two, say the 1052 01:28:50.560 --> 01:28:54.920 servant of the Lord. Behold my servant, my elect one, in whom 1053 01:28:54.960 --> 01:28:59.760 my soul delights. I have put my Holy Spirit upon him. He will 1054 01:28:59.760 --> 01:29:02.479 bring justice to the gentiles. He will bring forth, he will cry out, 1055 01:29:03.000 --> 01:29:08.199 he will not cry out and raise his voice Messianic prophecy. I wonder 1056 01:29:08.279 --> 01:29:14.600 who the elect one of Israel is, his servant that has the Holy Spirit 1057 01:29:14.680 --> 01:29:17.279 upon him. When he comes, the gentiles will convert. That's exactly what 1058 01:29:17.319 --> 01:29:21.920 happened when Jesus came. Do you think that's the only text in Isaiah which 1059 01:29:21.960 --> 01:29:36.520 refers to the triad I have all the Triadic texts listed. Let's look at 1060 01:29:36.560 --> 01:29:44.520 Isaiah forty four. And I asked him a simple question. And then he's 1061 01:29:44.560 --> 01:29:45.039 like, I don't know what you're talking about. I don't know what you're 1062 01:29:45.079 --> 01:29:47.439 talking about. I don't know what you're talking about. Now he started out 1063 01:29:47.479 --> 01:29:50.640 with, oh, I know he bring Greek, like he's a textual scholar. 1064 01:29:50.920 --> 01:29:55.479 Isaiah forty four. Here, now, my servant, Jacob upon Israel, 1065 01:29:55.479 --> 01:29:58.560 whom I've chosen. Now, is that the nation of Israel? Yes? 1066 01:29:59.439 --> 01:30:04.600 But who al so is the nation of Israel collectively represented in the servant? 1067 01:30:05.039 --> 01:30:10.880 Upon whom is his spirit? And who is the Messiah? The archetype 1068 01:30:10.880 --> 01:30:15.239 of Israel is Jesus, Thus says the Lord who formed you in the womb. 1069 01:30:15.359 --> 01:30:19.199 What my Jacob, my servant, jesture on. I'm chosen. I 1070 01:30:19.199 --> 01:30:23.479 will pour water. I will pour my spirit on your descendants and upon your 1071 01:30:23.479 --> 01:30:31.960 blessing, blessing upon your offspring, Thus says the Lord the Redeemer. I 1072 01:30:32.000 --> 01:30:39.920 am the first and the last. What's that alpha and omega? Alpha Omega? 1073 01:30:40.359 --> 01:30:45.960 Who's the alpha in Omega? Yeah? Aamy, Yeah, I'm not 1074 01:30:45.000 --> 01:30:56.920 done though. Hold on, oh Jesus, Isaiah forty eight. Now you're 1075 01:30:56.960 --> 01:30:59.800 saying this is just a sampling. This guy's like, where's the Trinity in 1076 01:30:59.840 --> 01:31:08.119 the Old Testament that doesn't exist? This is a sampling, Isaiah forty eight 1077 01:31:08.159 --> 01:31:16.960 point fifteen. Come now and hear me, hear this, Come near to 1078 01:31:16.960 --> 01:31:19.359 me and hear this. I've not spoken in secret from the beginning, from 1079 01:31:19.359 --> 01:31:25.039 the time that I was there. Now the Lord God and his Spirit have 1080 01:31:25.199 --> 01:31:30.600 sent me. The Lord God and his Spirit have sent me, so here 1081 01:31:30.600 --> 01:31:34.640 he is in the chat. Yes, Jacob means Jesus. Correct. You 1082 01:31:34.640 --> 01:31:40.039 would know this if you had at all learned basic Messianic prophets, or just 1083 01:31:40.039 --> 01:31:45.600 get out here, dude, I don't want to interact with you. Triaddic. 1084 01:31:45.760 --> 01:31:49.039 The Lord God and his Spirit have sent me. This is Jesus speaking, 1085 01:31:50.199 --> 01:31:56.159 the Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel. That's Jesus. All of 1086 01:31:56.199 --> 01:32:00.000 these are Messianic prophecies. Now the Jews admit they're They just don't think it's 1087 01:32:00.079 --> 01:32:05.000 Jesus. But of course when Jesus came, what happened the Gentiles convert, 1088 01:32:05.560 --> 01:32:10.760 which is what dozens of passages say will happen when the Messiah comes in the 1089 01:32:10.800 --> 01:32:16.840 Old Testament, dozens of psalms, dozens of passages in Isaiah. You don't 1090 01:32:16.880 --> 01:32:21.600 just take one passage, you take the whole totality of the passages to understand 1091 01:32:23.039 --> 01:32:30.039 why this is a prediction of the Messiah. We'll look at Joe. I'm 1092 01:32:30.039 --> 01:32:38.359 gonna just throw in a bunch of passages. I'm just gonna shockgun quotes Isaiah 1093 01:32:38.399 --> 01:32:45.520 phil is chloral And by the way, that's a grammatical form of the plural 1094 01:32:45.640 --> 01:32:49.840 number. Right. Let us. Obviously we know the let us make man 1095 01:32:49.880 --> 01:32:54.600 in our image. And the Lord said, behold, Adam is to become 1096 01:32:54.640 --> 01:33:01.359 as one of us. You have all the Angel of the Lord, citations 1097 01:33:01.399 --> 01:33:06.119 in which they worship, called the worship Angel. Yeah, but he just 1098 01:33:06.199 --> 01:33:11.560 keeps equivocating and saying angel means a created messenger, which was like, I 1099 01:33:12.079 --> 01:33:14.800 understand, I'm explaining to you, it's not a created messenger when it's called 1100 01:33:14.880 --> 01:33:18.560 Yahweh. Yahweh cannot give his name to creatures, Okay, And why would 1101 01:33:18.560 --> 01:33:24.359 you worship a created messenger? Exactly? In fact, when anybody worships an 1102 01:33:24.359 --> 01:33:27.560 angel, they're forbidden from doing it. Listen, o coast lands, take 1103 01:33:27.600 --> 01:33:30.000 heed people's from Afar. This is Gentiles. The Lord has called me from 1104 01:33:30.000 --> 01:33:33.039 the womb Jesus, from the matrick of my mother. He may mention of 1105 01:33:33.079 --> 01:33:36.600 my name. He has made my mouth like a sharp sword, as revelation 1106 01:33:36.680 --> 01:33:41.199 one says about Christ. In the shadow of his hand. He hid me 1107 01:33:41.760 --> 01:33:44.520 like a paula shaft in his quiver. He hid me. He said, 1108 01:33:44.520 --> 01:33:48.279 you are my servant, oh, Israel. Christ is the ultimate servant Israel, 1109 01:33:48.560 --> 01:33:50.960 because he is Israel, in whom he will be glorified. How do 1110 01:33:51.000 --> 01:33:55.479 I know that this is talking about Jesus, the Lord who formed me, 1111 01:33:55.520 --> 01:33:58.960 and is him to be a servant to bring back Jacob, to make sure 1112 01:33:59.039 --> 01:34:01.720 Israel has gathered to him, to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and 1113 01:34:01.760 --> 01:34:06.640 to restore This is the Father. I will give you this messenger here as 1114 01:34:06.680 --> 01:34:11.359 a light to the gentiles, that you should be salvation to the ends of 1115 01:34:11.399 --> 01:34:15.880 the earth. Thus says the Lord to the Redeemer of Israel, the Holy 1116 01:34:15.960 --> 01:34:21.119 One, to him who man despises, Christ, the one despised of men, 1117 01:34:23.039 --> 01:34:27.600 the servant of rulers. Kings will see and arise, Princes will worship 1118 01:34:28.000 --> 01:34:30.880 what happened when Jesus came, and then gentile nations started. What's been happening 1119 01:34:30.920 --> 01:34:35.600 for two thousand years. Kings and nations, princes have worshiped the Holy One 1120 01:34:35.600 --> 01:34:41.119 of Israel. And these are just a few examples. Do you understand. 1121 01:34:41.159 --> 01:34:45.960 I can keep going throughout the rest of the chapters of Isaiah. I don't 1122 01:34:45.000 --> 01:34:48.600 just need Isaiah fifty three. In fact, I don't even go to it 1123 01:34:48.640 --> 01:34:53.159 because everybody just tries to cope about it, even though it's totally obvious. 1124 01:34:54.640 --> 01:34:58.960 I can go to Isaiah sixty one. Can I speak in a second, 1125 01:34:59.359 --> 01:35:02.039 when I'm done addressing Messianic prophecy. This is just in Isaiah. I understand 1126 01:35:03.319 --> 01:35:06.479 the spirit of the Lord is upon me, because the Lord has anointed anointed 1127 01:35:06.520 --> 01:35:11.119 me to preach to the poor. I wonder if that's about Jesus. Maybe 1128 01:35:11.439 --> 01:35:20.199 maybe the spirit of God is upon me. Jesus speaking, the spirit of 1129 01:35:20.239 --> 01:35:27.279 the Father is upon me. That's a triad in countless passages of the Old 1130 01:35:27.319 --> 01:35:32.199 Testament. This socidy, this socided and Luke four of Jesus fulfilling this passage. 1131 01:35:32.479 --> 01:35:36.039 And do you understand again, Jews believe there's a messianic passage prophecy. 1132 01:35:36.079 --> 01:35:42.359 They just don't think it's about Jesus. Numbers also has the priestly blessing in 1133 01:35:42.359 --> 01:35:45.960 the triatic formula, the Lord bless me, the Lord make his face to 1134 01:35:46.000 --> 01:35:48.960 shine upon me, the Lord lift up his counsel. In some pomny, 1135 01:35:50.600 --> 01:35:57.560 Isaiah has the triple form Holy Holy, Holy doxology. The serf from holy, 1136 01:35:57.600 --> 01:36:00.560 Holy, Holy is the Lord of Hosts. Did try the triads all 1137 01:36:00.600 --> 01:36:03.920 through the Old Testament. It's amazing. No, you see, it's just 1138 01:36:04.039 --> 01:36:11.960 Plato Pythagoras's triad that's mystically truly present in the Old Testament. They look at 1139 01:36:11.960 --> 01:36:15.319 this, surely they are my people, children who will not lie. So 1140 01:36:15.399 --> 01:36:21.359 he became their savior who did he was afflicted. The Angel of his presence 1141 01:36:21.479 --> 01:36:28.720 saved them. That's Jesus the Savior, the Angel of his presence. But 1142 01:36:28.800 --> 01:36:33.000 they rebelled against his holy spirit. Look at that, the entire triad right 1143 01:36:33.039 --> 01:36:41.359 there in Isaiah sixty three eight to ten. I mean, you can't read 1144 01:36:41.399 --> 01:36:50.000 the Book of Isaiah unless you just ignore all of this right and go ahead. 1145 01:36:50.039 --> 01:36:54.960 So we had another person that wants to chat, what's up? Man? 1146 01:36:58.439 --> 01:37:03.239 What's up? You're right, yeah, I know. My discussion is 1147 01:37:03.279 --> 01:37:11.079 about funny. It's not relation to what you're discussing right now in religion or 1148 01:37:11.079 --> 01:37:15.479 philosophy. But it's more to do with politics. Is what is your opinion 1149 01:37:15.560 --> 01:37:21.840 on national socialism? In his terms? Not the topic? Uh, if 1150 01:37:21.840 --> 01:37:32.319 a man, what's up? If a man? What's up? Got un 1151 01:37:32.359 --> 01:37:40.239 mused? How you doing? Sorry? So you you I've been following the 1152 01:37:40.239 --> 01:37:42.520 conversation for a while. I don't know if you want to stay on the 1153 01:37:42.560 --> 01:37:45.479 messy topics, but I wanted to ask something about cassism and also that see, 1154 01:37:46.920 --> 01:37:53.279 we don't have to talk about mess prophes. So two things. It's 1155 01:37:53.319 --> 01:37:56.560 it's two questions, but I think that they're brief enough that you would be 1156 01:37:56.560 --> 01:38:01.199 able to answer them. Like, So, the first one is, so 1157 01:38:01.439 --> 01:38:08.720 an argument that's obviously made by a lot of Roman Catholics is appealing to certain 1158 01:38:08.840 --> 01:38:13.800 acts. I have a certain interpretation of what it said in certain acts of 1159 01:38:13.880 --> 01:38:20.439 certain ecumenical councils about the pope, particularly the sixth and the seventh Council, 1160 01:38:23.000 --> 01:38:27.560 relating to like Agatho's letter or stuff like that. So my my first question 1161 01:38:27.640 --> 01:38:30.920 is, like, what is your take on like what's like the orthodox tink 1162 01:38:30.960 --> 01:38:38.159 on that? And then the second question is is is do you buy Craig 1163 01:38:38.239 --> 01:38:42.600 Trulia's argument that Augustine just didn't believe the filly okay and stuff like that. 1164 01:38:43.000 --> 01:38:45.840 I don't know what your take is on that. Now I do not agree 1165 01:38:45.880 --> 01:38:49.920 with that argument, and I've argued with him about it, Okay. So 1166 01:38:50.520 --> 01:38:54.840 on the so, yeah, so if you read about if you read the 1167 01:38:54.960 --> 01:38:59.039 book The Paper Lives In by Denny, he has a great explanation of how 1168 01:38:59.079 --> 01:39:02.479 this actually does pre papalism. Because number one, the sixth Ecumenical Council is 1169 01:39:02.800 --> 01:39:09.399 condemning a pope. So Clearly, the sixth Ecumenical Council doesn't teach the indefectibility 1170 01:39:09.399 --> 01:39:14.119 of the Roman see because Honori is defected. Secondly, if you look at 1171 01:39:14.199 --> 01:39:18.439 the way the Council treated Agatho's letter, they examined the letter to see if 1172 01:39:18.439 --> 01:39:24.960 it was consistent with previous teaching, just like Chalcidon examined the letter to see 1173 01:39:24.960 --> 01:39:27.680 if it was of Leo to see if it was consistent with Saint Cyril. 1174 01:39:27.760 --> 01:39:32.039 So Cyril is the pinnacle of Orthodoxy at Chalcedon, not Leo, and likewise, 1175 01:39:32.119 --> 01:39:36.319 the previous teaching of the church at the sixth Secondmenical Council is the pinnacle 1176 01:39:36.319 --> 01:39:41.119 of Orthodoxy, not the de facto letter of Agatho. So they spent I 1177 01:39:41.159 --> 01:39:45.960 think Denny says, a week something like that, examining to see if Agatho's 1178 01:39:46.000 --> 01:39:50.880 teaching was orthodox. Furthermore, the easy way to refute this is to point 1179 01:39:50.920 --> 01:39:58.520 to latter in six forty nine, because if the attitude of this council was 1180 01:39:58.760 --> 01:40:05.239 papal, then they would have not even investigated the teaching of Agatho, nor 1181 01:40:05.279 --> 01:40:09.960 would they have even needed to have the sixth Ecumenical Council, which was an 1182 01:40:10.039 --> 01:40:13.800 imperial Council. All they would have had to do was to go to the 1183 01:40:13.880 --> 01:40:19.279 Teaching of six forty nine lateran which was a Roman Catholic synod held under Pope 1184 01:40:19.279 --> 01:40:24.600 Martin, the first attended by Saint Maximus Confessor, by the way, and 1185 01:40:24.720 --> 01:40:30.079 it had already condemned monothelitism. So if later in six forty nine was a 1186 01:40:30.159 --> 01:40:38.279 papal approved council already condemning monothelitism, all they would have had to do at 1187 01:40:38.279 --> 01:40:43.640 the six Ecumenical Council was say, hey, Pope Martin has already spoken case 1188 01:40:43.680 --> 01:40:46.239 closed. What do they always say, Rome has spoken cases closed? Wait 1189 01:40:46.279 --> 01:40:51.720 a minute later in six forty nine already spoke case closed. Yet this doesn't 1190 01:40:51.720 --> 01:40:57.760 solve the issue. They have an entirely different Ecumenical Council in six eighty six 1191 01:41:00.159 --> 01:41:03.239 the emperor and condemn a pope. So the fact that Aga, though says 1192 01:41:03.319 --> 01:41:08.399 that Rome is unsolid and is always taught Orthodoxy, we don't have that big 1193 01:41:08.399 --> 01:41:12.720 of a deal about that, because Rome was pretty much Orthodox throughout this period 1194 01:41:12.920 --> 01:41:17.760 except for Honorius. Yeah, so I've read a follow up question. I 1195 01:41:17.880 --> 01:41:23.079 just thank you for that summary. I think I heard Sarah from Hamilton make 1196 01:41:23.119 --> 01:41:27.000 the same point about Laddering six forty nine, which was that's actually a really 1197 01:41:27.079 --> 01:41:29.840 big point I think something. And by the way, latter in six forty 1198 01:41:29.920 --> 01:41:33.199 nine is not counted among Roman Catholic ecumenical councils, even though according to their 1199 01:41:33.640 --> 01:41:39.039 line of origmentation it should be. Ms A really good point. Is that 1200 01:41:39.119 --> 01:41:44.560 something I've not heard brought up by most Orthodox or Catholics in the on these 1201 01:41:44.600 --> 01:41:48.560 issues. So I'm definitely gonna have to read Denny's book on that question is 1202 01:41:50.279 --> 01:41:53.239 what was it? What was it? Well? Hold on, but hold 1203 01:41:53.279 --> 01:41:55.920 on before we move on to your next question, though, I mean, 1204 01:41:55.960 --> 01:42:01.159 do you do you would you concede that if the Acumenical Council is condemning Honorius 1205 01:42:01.520 --> 01:42:08.279 for merely writing a letter advocating monothelitism, I mean, how does that square 1206 01:42:08.399 --> 01:42:13.159 with the Vatican One doctrine of the papacy No one judges the first see no 1207 01:42:13.319 --> 01:42:16.760 council is above the pope. Yeah. So for context, just before I 1208 01:42:16.760 --> 01:42:20.199 say the next thing, I am a Protestant just thinking to you on these 1209 01:42:20.239 --> 01:42:25.039 issues. I actually talked to you about baptism a long time ago, and 1210 01:42:25.319 --> 01:42:29.960 I remember if he meant you, I remember, yeah. But yeah, 1211 01:42:30.000 --> 01:42:32.800 so I think that is something that as a point I don't think I've ever 1212 01:42:33.399 --> 01:42:36.600 I think you probably have made this point on your streams at this at some 1213 01:42:36.640 --> 01:42:39.960 point. I just maybe just missed it, because this is one of those 1214 01:42:39.960 --> 01:42:43.439 points that I haven't really thought of, Like, yeah, like they're condemning 1215 01:42:43.520 --> 01:42:46.119 him not because of well he went up in front of the whole church and 1216 01:42:46.159 --> 01:42:49.520 said blah blah blah blah blah, but he wrote a letter and they were 1217 01:42:49.560 --> 01:42:51.720 like, no, the letters. Yeah, but what I'm saying is that 1218 01:42:51.760 --> 01:42:56.840 the letter was enough to get him condemned. So yeah, So that shows 1219 01:42:56.880 --> 01:43:00.520 that in terms of like how Tradcats are argue this stuff, Roman Catholics argue 1220 01:43:00.560 --> 01:43:08.199 it. It doesn't require the pope making something dogma for him to be a 1221 01:43:08.239 --> 01:43:11.920 heretic or heterodox. Do that? Do you understand why that is? Because 1222 01:43:11.960 --> 01:43:17.319 if if the status of authority and infallibility or magisterial status was what was necessary 1223 01:43:17.680 --> 01:43:21.920 to make Francis or whoever a potential heretic, nobody could be a heretic but 1224 01:43:23.079 --> 01:43:28.600 the pope, because nobody can do that but the pope. Yeah, was 1225 01:43:28.640 --> 01:43:35.239 Martin Luther? Was Martin Luther binding anybody to his justification doctrine? Does he 1226 01:43:35.279 --> 01:43:38.319 have the power to do that in the Romancalla Church. No, and yet 1227 01:43:38.319 --> 01:43:41.920 he's a heretic. Why because because authority has nothing to do with whether your 1228 01:43:41.920 --> 01:43:50.479 hatick or not. Yeah, a very fair point, would you so? 1229 01:43:51.199 --> 01:43:56.079 Okay, So, relating to the question I made about Augustine, right for 1230 01:43:56.159 --> 01:44:00.039 you, for you guys, you basically say you always so first, you 1231 01:44:00.039 --> 01:44:03.640 would basically say that Craig's reading on that is just straight up wrong. Yes. 1232 01:44:04.760 --> 01:44:08.359 I found that interesting that, like, there's a lot of Orthodox God 1233 01:44:08.359 --> 01:44:10.960 would point me to what Craig said about it. Right, Well, Craig 1234 01:44:11.000 --> 01:44:14.760 thinks that an Orthodox person for whatever reason, I don't know if he still 1235 01:44:14.760 --> 01:44:17.920 thinks this, but at one time he thought that you have to you can't 1236 01:44:17.920 --> 01:44:21.479 have theological mistakes, so you have. So basically he has this thing that 1237 01:44:21.520 --> 01:44:25.319 he thinks he has to make everybody have the same theology. And I think 1238 01:44:25.359 --> 01:44:31.199 that's just false. It's wrong. It's it's not it's somebody said, I 1239 01:44:31.279 --> 01:44:33.880 actually have seen this. Now, this is this may be deleted, this 1240 01:44:33.960 --> 01:44:39.359 may be a long time ago. On a thread somewhere, I saw him 1241 01:44:39.520 --> 01:44:43.239 sort of try to defend the concept that the fathers are infallible at one point. 1242 01:44:43.319 --> 01:44:45.479 Yeah, I'm saying he has argued that type of a thing. I 1243 01:44:45.520 --> 01:44:48.920 don't know if he still holds that, so you know, yeah, that's 1244 01:44:48.960 --> 01:44:51.479 really like so for you guys, you guys would say like, Okay, 1245 01:44:51.760 --> 01:44:57.439 Augustine was wrong, but it doesn't really matter to his sainthood on that right, 1246 01:44:57.880 --> 01:45:00.359 right. Yeah. I think multiple church fathers and saints have made errors, 1247 01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:05.479 and I think that honesty requires that. I mean, Photius admits this 1248 01:45:05.560 --> 01:45:11.800 and the mysticogy that that they made errors, So it will basically mean like 1249 01:45:11.920 --> 01:45:15.520 they made errors. But what's really important is what the church is affirming, 1250 01:45:15.720 --> 01:45:20.039 like through its councils. So we're not going to yeah, like if something 1251 01:45:20.119 --> 01:45:25.439 is a disputed question, I mean there's going to be periods of flexibility and 1252 01:45:25.720 --> 01:45:29.760 open issue, right, There's going to be periods of debate. So you 1253 01:45:29.800 --> 01:45:35.279 know, can gregor Nissa get it wrong when it comes to a pocket of 1254 01:45:35.319 --> 01:45:41.039 stasis? Sure? So what I mean that makes a lot of sense. 1255 01:45:41.079 --> 01:45:45.600 That makes way more sense than what the other orthodox that I've heard, like 1256 01:45:45.640 --> 01:45:47.640 truly say is because that is the thing, because I would look at the 1257 01:45:48.520 --> 01:45:51.920 Chutansky's book on the phil okay, and he's like, yeah, I'll got 1258 01:45:53.039 --> 01:45:54.800 I think it's like really early in the book, he's like, yeah, 1259 01:45:54.800 --> 01:45:58.840 Augustine teaches the phili okuay, and that's a scholar, right, And I 1260 01:45:58.880 --> 01:46:00.680 was like, well, doesn't work with what any of these other guys are 1261 01:46:00.680 --> 01:46:04.560 saying whatsoever. So the fact that you're able to explain like that, I 1262 01:46:04.600 --> 01:46:11.039 appreciate that because it definitely it causes less problems to have that sort of perspective. 1263 01:46:11.079 --> 01:46:14.359 Well, I mean, just let's just take the issue of differing lists 1264 01:46:14.359 --> 01:46:17.880 of church fathers on different canons of scripture. So many of them got it 1265 01:46:17.960 --> 01:46:23.239 wrong in terms of what in the Orthodox Church would be the normative canon. 1266 01:46:24.000 --> 01:46:26.359 So oh, I guess they're all heretics now right. I mean, this 1267 01:46:26.439 --> 01:46:30.000 is the easiest way to refute this kind of silly view that the church fathers 1268 01:46:30.680 --> 01:46:35.279 are individually infallible on theology. I mean, Jerome has a different canon than 1269 01:46:36.039 --> 01:46:41.680 John Damascus, Okay, and they're both saints. Because if something's an open 1270 01:46:41.760 --> 01:46:45.439 question, we don't automatically condemn people because they got something wrong. But there's 1271 01:46:45.439 --> 01:46:50.000 this weird idea that if you are deified, that somehow you can't make a 1272 01:46:50.039 --> 01:46:57.640 theological mistake. I just think that's silly. I appreciate that I do appreciate 1273 01:46:57.640 --> 01:47:01.399 that that does actually make a lot of things make more sense in Okay, 1274 01:47:01.520 --> 01:47:04.039 do you have any other issues or questions or topics? What do you want 1275 01:47:04.079 --> 01:47:11.800 to get to? Oh? Okay, so on the on the what do 1276 01:47:11.880 --> 01:47:18.600 y'alls take on succession within churches that are not intervenient with the Eastern Orthodox? 1277 01:47:18.800 --> 01:47:23.359 Is there just no grace there? Or you was taking an agnostic view like 1278 01:47:23.399 --> 01:47:26.680 there might be, but we cannot be sure whatsoever, So you should be 1279 01:47:26.720 --> 01:47:30.720 e O or what it definitely isn't. I just want to know your perspective. 1280 01:47:30.760 --> 01:47:32.720 I'm not really like debating that. Yeah, I mean, we don't 1281 01:47:32.800 --> 01:47:38.880 have access to what grace God is granted to individuals and other communions. The 1282 01:47:39.000 --> 01:47:44.000 judgments that we make are based on the public confessions of those groups, So 1283 01:47:44.039 --> 01:47:48.199 the public confession of the Baptist or the whoever, Pentecostals or whatever, and 1284 01:47:48.319 --> 01:47:51.600 even groups that have a kind of a succession. Ultimately, if you've lost 1285 01:47:51.640 --> 01:47:58.399 the Orthodox faith, the church might judge the case that you have the rituals 1286 01:47:58.439 --> 01:48:02.079 done correctly, but it doesn't really matter if you you know, it's abslut 1287 01:48:02.079 --> 01:48:09.439 secession that I'm not a mechanical thing where you're automatically Apostolic, even if you, 1288 01:48:09.439 --> 01:48:12.600 you know, have lost the Orthodox faith. And that's something St. 1289 01:48:12.640 --> 01:48:16.399 Anthonasius says that about the heretics and schismatics, that even if they have succession, 1290 01:48:16.439 --> 01:48:19.960 if they've lost the faith, what does that really get you? Now, 1291 01:48:20.279 --> 01:48:24.119 it might get you something in the sense that if the church receives you 1292 01:48:24.199 --> 01:48:28.439 and judges that case to be a situation where they don't have to be reordained, 1293 01:48:29.119 --> 01:48:32.720 and that economia can accept that they were vested or whatever. Then that's 1294 01:48:32.760 --> 01:48:39.000 the decision of the local synods and the economy of the bishop. But that's 1295 01:48:39.000 --> 01:48:42.880 a different issue from do we think that anybody has If there was no grace 1296 01:48:43.159 --> 01:48:45.880 for people in other churches or groups, then they would never be able to 1297 01:48:45.880 --> 01:48:47.319 come to Orthodox. So you can only come through grace. But we don't 1298 01:48:47.319 --> 01:48:51.760 make judgments on people's individual salvation because what Paul says, what do we have 1299 01:48:51.800 --> 01:48:57.119 to do with judging those that are without We don't have access to that information. 1300 01:48:57.880 --> 01:49:02.359 So our job is to just tell them to become Orthodox. I appreciate 1301 01:49:02.399 --> 01:49:14.840 that definitely. Last question, just so the quote from as about like if 1302 01:49:14.840 --> 01:49:20.319 they have it's one of the festal letters where he's talking about them. I've 1303 01:49:20.359 --> 01:49:24.239 cided it a bunch of discord. It's one of the Festal letters where he's 1304 01:49:24.279 --> 01:49:30.640 talking about them not having they've lost the Eucharist. It's one of the it's 1305 01:49:30.640 --> 01:49:34.920 the Festal letter about Easter. Okay, I forget which Festal letter it is. 1306 01:49:34.960 --> 01:49:40.039 It's about Easter. But yeah, all right, I appreciate that, 1307 01:49:40.119 --> 01:49:42.319 man, have a nice one. I might have it. Let me see. 1308 01:49:42.359 --> 01:49:45.520 It might be twenty nine. Let me see, let me let me 1309 01:49:45.520 --> 01:49:47.920 see. I'm looking. Hold on, yeah, no, it's not twenty 1310 01:49:48.000 --> 01:49:58.520 nine. Mmm. So yeah, I haven't marked in my cheft set at 1311 01:49:58.520 --> 01:50:00.920 home. I don't have the cheft set with me. Yeah, it's it's 1312 01:50:00.960 --> 01:50:04.359 cool, man, I'll look for it. Man, and I appreciate at 1313 01:50:04.439 --> 01:50:08.800 least the reference so that I can find what. We'll find it somewhere. 1314 01:50:11.720 --> 01:50:14.359 Let me see if I can find it real quick, but searching Festal letter 1315 01:50:14.439 --> 01:50:31.199 or Easter. Let's see. Maybe what isn't the thirty nine I'm not sure. 1316 01:50:31.279 --> 01:50:49.600 Let me say, no, thirty nine is the his list of the 1317 01:50:49.640 --> 01:50:55.479 canon. Uh, let me see if maybe it's a letter too. Let 1318 01:50:55.479 --> 01:51:04.600 me see. I said this to Snack not too long ago, and now 1319 01:51:04.600 --> 01:51:21.359 I can't remember which one it is. Kay. Uh, let me see 1320 01:51:21.399 --> 01:51:25.760 if I can search. I might be able to search discord real quick. 1321 01:51:27.319 --> 01:51:50.800 Uh, because I think it's in the mad chat. Let me see Festal. 1322 01:51:51.199 --> 01:51:55.399 H. Well, that's father Deacons citing Festal letters one to seven. 1323 01:51:59.680 --> 01:52:11.800 So it might be one of the first seven. Let's see. Oh, 1324 01:52:11.840 --> 01:52:33.199 it might be the first one on fasting trumpets and feasts. I'm pretty sure 1325 01:52:33.239 --> 01:52:41.640 it's one of the first seven. I think that's right. But there's a 1326 01:52:41.640 --> 01:52:47.319 certain section where he talks about heretics losing the feast and losing the because they 1327 01:52:47.319 --> 01:52:50.439 don't have the faith. So it's like, you can have rituals all day 1328 01:52:50.479 --> 01:52:55.239 long, but if you've lost the faith, like the rituals don't do you 1329 01:52:55.279 --> 01:53:01.039 any good. Because it's the same reason why we reject the Roman Catholic notion 1330 01:53:01.199 --> 01:53:05.079 that like, if a priest has ordained a priest, and the Roman Catholic 1331 01:53:05.159 --> 01:53:09.399 view, he can forever confect the sacrament no matter what, even if he 1332 01:53:09.439 --> 01:53:14.359 becomes a Satanist the very day. That's their view, right, he can 1333 01:53:14.399 --> 01:53:17.119 always confect the Eucharist. We would say, no, once he's apostatized, 1334 01:53:17.159 --> 01:53:21.000 that none of that counts. It doesn't matter anymore. Yeah, anyway, 1335 01:53:21.079 --> 01:53:24.560 it's just I think it's one of the first seven. It's just I haven't 1336 01:53:24.920 --> 01:53:28.640 thought about this in a long time. So yeah, actually I have a 1337 01:53:28.960 --> 01:53:33.720 just a really quick backup, but for short. So a lot of times, 1338 01:53:34.039 --> 01:53:39.199 okay, so a lot of times Catholics make a specific argument about the 1339 01:53:39.239 --> 01:53:43.279 canon to Protestants, about how they don't have an infallible churches to find the 1340 01:53:43.319 --> 01:53:46.960 cannon, and just skipping over most of those debates, I think a lot 1341 01:53:47.000 --> 01:53:51.680 of times Orthodox make the same argument, and the Protestants have contested that they 1342 01:53:51.760 --> 01:53:58.199 never infallibly define the canon. But it seems I'm just asking for a confirmation. 1343 01:53:58.439 --> 01:54:04.079 It seems that at the Council of Trullo they did affirm that. Do 1344 01:54:04.119 --> 01:54:08.039 you guys act that as a part of the sixth council? Is that correct? 1345 01:54:08.359 --> 01:54:12.199 Well, Trollo, I think so Trelo affirms the cannon from Carthage, 1346 01:54:12.239 --> 01:54:15.840 the Canon of Scripture from Carthage. Trollo is then I believe some people argue 1347 01:54:15.920 --> 01:54:19.560 it's accepted at the sixth, but then it's officially at the seventh. So 1348 01:54:19.600 --> 01:54:27.239 basically Trello slash six seven affirm it correct. Okay, So then that argument 1349 01:54:27.279 --> 01:54:31.720 against the Orthodox would not be valid, which which argument. The argument is, 1350 01:54:31.760 --> 01:54:34.680 well, you guys ever probably define the canons. You guys can just 1351 01:54:35.760 --> 01:54:41.439 you know, rejected due to our canonicals tomorrow as scripture or whatever. No, 1352 01:54:41.520 --> 01:54:45.640 I mean the seventh, the seventh that Coumentical Council affirms the canons of 1353 01:54:45.720 --> 01:54:49.119 Trollo. Yeah, okay, And then that that that basically solves that because 1354 01:54:49.159 --> 01:54:56.159 I know the other Paul made that argument once his response to Kyle that basically 1355 01:54:56.239 --> 01:54:58.880 did the Orthodox nam frilo will be defined it? Oh? I found that 1356 01:54:59.000 --> 01:55:03.800 it's Letter five of Athanasius, because if you go down, he says that 1357 01:55:04.000 --> 01:55:10.920 those who have rendered the garment of the church, and they he says, 1358 01:55:10.960 --> 01:55:18.000 they sacrifice the rights outside of the church, and he says, basically doesn't 1359 01:55:18.000 --> 01:55:20.439 do anything for him. If I remember, I think, I think this 1360 01:55:20.560 --> 01:55:27.000 is it. I think I think this is it. Here letters section four 1361 01:55:27.079 --> 01:55:32.319 of that letter. Let's see. Brother. He then think the accomplishment of 1362 01:55:32.319 --> 01:55:35.520 the feast is in the abundance of food. Jews think that it's in the 1363 01:55:35.560 --> 01:55:43.479 types and the shadows. Schismatics keep the feasts in separate places with vain imaginations. 1364 01:55:43.520 --> 01:55:46.159 But let us not brethren, let but let us brethren be superior to 1365 01:55:46.199 --> 01:55:51.960 even keeping the feast with sincerity. To the Jews who no longer received types 1366 01:55:53.000 --> 01:55:58.039 and shadows, but not like Jews receiving types, and no longer receiving types 1367 01:55:58.039 --> 01:56:01.439 and shadows, having been illumined with the light of the glorious illumined light, 1368 01:56:01.520 --> 01:56:04.359 which, by the way, has not created grace looking upon the sun of 1369 01:56:04.479 --> 01:56:09.239 righteousness. To the schismatics not renting the code of Christ, but in one 1370 01:56:09.239 --> 01:56:17.479 house in the Catholic Church, let us eat the passover. I think I'm 1371 01:56:17.479 --> 01:56:24.039 not sure if that's it. It sounds like a little bit, but maybe 1372 01:56:26.279 --> 01:56:30.640 there might be further down because he basically there's a section where he talks about 1373 01:56:30.680 --> 01:56:42.239 the schismatics do rituals, but it doesn't do them any good. Let me 1374 01:56:42.279 --> 01:57:00.920 see hold on one, sorcy, let me try something else. I could 1375 01:57:00.960 --> 01:57:03.319 see the screenshot that I sent the snack. I just don't remember which one 1376 01:57:03.359 --> 01:57:13.079 of these it is. Let me think, let me just search out the 1377 01:57:13.159 --> 01:57:44.920 enacious that my work. Oh, here we go. I found it. 1378 01:57:44.920 --> 01:57:51.520 It's a letter seven. That's it. So I'm off it's a letter Uh, 1379 01:57:51.520 --> 01:57:58.119 that's weird. Why is that on here? Yeah? So letter seven? 1380 01:57:58.800 --> 01:58:09.039 That's weird because it's on New Advent here. That's weird. Why is 1381 01:58:09.039 --> 01:58:14.880 it? I see it? Is it the excuse excusmatics, since they are 1382 01:58:14.920 --> 01:58:21.399 excluded from glorifying God with the same cannot properly even continue observing it? But 1383 01:58:21.479 --> 01:58:25.800 why is that? Like it's I don't see it on the list here? 1384 01:58:25.920 --> 01:58:30.439 What am I looking at the wrong person? Letter seven like it's no longer 1385 01:58:30.560 --> 01:58:38.199 listed on here. It goes from five to ten on New Advent. But 1386 01:58:38.239 --> 01:58:42.479 when I pull up New Advent from the Lincoln Discord, it shows letter seven. 1387 01:58:42.560 --> 01:58:46.319 That's really weird. See there's letter seven, but if you look on 1388 01:58:46.359 --> 01:59:01.399 the screen, letter seven is gone. It's really bizarre. So something so 1389 01:59:02.640 --> 01:59:08.119 it's like it's hidden now. So if you go to New Advent Letters of 1390 01:59:08.159 --> 01:59:12.800 Saint Athenasius, it goes from five to ten. But you can still pull 1391 01:59:12.880 --> 01:59:16.319 up the link to letter seven. Oh shoot, yeah, I wasn't on 1392 01:59:16.359 --> 01:59:19.720 the YouTube, just on the website. I'm on up spaces, but I 1393 01:59:19.800 --> 01:59:23.479 just checked and you're right, it's actually really weird. Yeah, now let 1394 01:59:23.520 --> 01:59:27.600 me put it in the chat for everybody, so you can go to you 1395 01:59:27.640 --> 01:59:30.119 can you can see the letter for yourself. I'm not making it up. 1396 01:59:30.159 --> 01:59:32.119 It's still there. It's just it's just hidden for whatever. That's crazy. 1397 01:59:33.239 --> 01:59:36.960 So there in the chat is the link to letter seven to show you I'm 1398 01:59:38.000 --> 01:59:42.680 not making it up. And it says that yeah, centers and those aliens 1399 01:59:42.720 --> 01:59:45.119 to the church, heretics and schismatics, since they're excluded from glorifying God, 1400 01:59:45.159 --> 01:59:51.520 cannot observe the feasts. So in Athenasius. In Athenasius is mind right his 1401 01:59:51.560 --> 01:59:57.279 sacramentology. By the way, that's not donatism, because donatism is a different 1402 01:59:57.359 --> 02:00:05.840 view from what Athanasius is saying. Donatism says any sin excludes you from from 1403 02:00:05.920 --> 02:00:10.920 grace and from from sacramental grace. Right, So if a priest is having 1404 02:00:10.960 --> 02:00:14.840 a dirty thought when he baptizes you, you were never baptized, right, 1405 02:00:15.039 --> 02:00:19.199 that's donatism. Athanasius' view is not donatism. He's saying that if you lose 1406 02:00:19.239 --> 02:00:25.920 the faith, then you no longer have the powers of right, sacramental powers 1407 02:00:25.960 --> 02:00:29.279 or jurisdiction or whatever. But in the Roman Catholic system they developed in a 1408 02:00:29.319 --> 02:00:33.479 different direction with the strict view of matter, form and intention that comes about 1409 02:00:33.520 --> 02:00:38.439 in the early Middle Ages. So we didn't the Orthodoxy has never developed that 1410 02:00:38.479 --> 02:00:44.319 matter form and intention specificity. That's why they believe that that uh, a 1411 02:00:44.399 --> 02:00:46.840 muslim and an atheist can baptize you. That's in that's Roman Cally view. 1412 02:00:47.880 --> 02:00:54.399 Yeah, and Athanasians would never he would think that's crazy. Yeah, and 1413 02:00:54.439 --> 02:00:57.880 so you would say, would you also say when it comes to that topic, 1414 02:00:58.399 --> 02:01:00.840 this is kind of like it's a related to this, but basically like 1415 02:01:02.359 --> 02:01:08.199 that, like a Baptistic view where the sacrament is only valid based on your 1416 02:01:08.399 --> 02:01:12.760 internal disposition is like a reverse Donetism where it's like it's not that person could 1417 02:01:12.760 --> 02:01:15.720 affecting it, but the person receiving it or something like that. Well, 1418 02:01:15.720 --> 02:01:18.920 I mean Baptists don't believe the interior disposition has anything to do with the sacramento 1419 02:01:19.000 --> 02:01:26.880 right itself. That is true as well. I mean I just don't believe 1420 02:01:26.880 --> 02:01:30.479 in baptism or regeneration, so it doesn't baptism just a sign of an inward 1421 02:01:30.520 --> 02:01:38.520 transformation. Yeah, yeah, it's I grew up like I've grown up evangelical 1422 02:01:38.600 --> 02:01:41.760 and that's one of the like the baptism is probably the first big red pill 1423 02:01:41.960 --> 02:01:45.920 on church history, to be honest, because it's like like and like I'm 1424 02:01:46.000 --> 02:01:50.239 I'm like like just what everybody knows. I'm personally cool, like with Gavin, 1425 02:01:50.279 --> 02:01:53.880 like we follow each other, we talk. But when I watch this 1426 02:01:54.000 --> 02:02:00.119 video trying to justify like a bapt like trying to argue against bath leone generation, 1427 02:02:00.239 --> 02:02:02.520 trying to use the Church Fathers to do that, Like it's like my 1428 02:02:02.600 --> 02:02:08.439 brain just like that's totally dishonest. Every all the Church Fathers takes baptism regeneration. 1429 02:02:08.560 --> 02:02:12.159 Everybody knows that. I mean, that's just dishonest. Yeah, And 1430 02:02:12.199 --> 02:02:17.079 so so when it's also a wild how your your theology and all these things 1431 02:02:17.199 --> 02:02:24.079 is really related, Like it's not even goal your Christology and trinitarianism has nothing 1432 02:02:24.119 --> 02:02:27.640 to do with anything else exactly. Yeah, well you got the that's the 1433 02:02:27.680 --> 02:02:31.239 big point right there, right, I mean, if the paradigm of the 1434 02:02:31.279 --> 02:02:36.439 sacraments is the same as the paradigm of Christology, it's it's it's exactly how 1435 02:02:36.439 --> 02:02:41.479 it transfers over. Yeah. Yeah, and it's like it's like there, 1436 02:02:42.359 --> 02:02:46.600 it's kind of like how the in the Reformation, the Reform tradition goes even 1437 02:02:46.840 --> 02:02:50.960 far further than the Lutherans, and then the Evangelicals develop out of the Reform 1438 02:02:51.000 --> 02:03:00.159 tradition and essentially they start separating, like the Christology and the and the do 1439 02:03:00.199 --> 02:03:03.279 the Trinity for everything else. And that's one thing I've always appreciated for like 1440 02:03:03.319 --> 02:03:08.880 the last four years that I've known about Orthodoxy and like so very slowly learning 1441 02:03:08.880 --> 02:03:12.600 about it, is that, like on y'all's perspective, like the Trinity and 1442 02:03:13.039 --> 02:03:16.920 Christology and is actually central to absolutely everything, every single issue. And that's 1443 02:03:17.119 --> 02:03:20.479 right, that's the paradigm, different, right, very different. Yeah, 1444 02:03:20.520 --> 02:03:25.920 the paradigm. You're not going to have a doctrine of ecclesiology that contradicts Christology. 1445 02:03:26.079 --> 02:03:30.560 You're not going to have a sacramentology that contradicts Christology. So in Christology, 1446 02:03:30.600 --> 02:03:34.880 the divine person of the Sun joins himself to matter to created things, 1447 02:03:34.920 --> 02:03:40.920 created nature. Therefore he deifies the created nature. Therefore, in the sacraments, 1448 02:03:41.159 --> 02:03:45.039 you can't divorce the grace present of the sacrament from the celebration of the 1449 02:03:45.119 --> 02:03:47.159 rite. They go together, and in the New Testament they go together. 1450 02:03:47.239 --> 02:03:51.279 That's why Paul calls it the washing of the labor of regeneration. And every 1451 02:03:51.279 --> 02:03:55.479 president has to say, well, it's not baptism, it's it's anything above 1452 02:03:55.560 --> 02:03:58.520 baptism. No, it is, it's baptism. That's why in Acts two 1453 02:03:58.520 --> 02:04:01.239 thirty eight two thirty nine be repenting to be baptized for the remission of your 1454 02:04:01.239 --> 02:04:04.479 sins. That's water baptism, which is what they do in that very chapter. 1455 02:04:06.640 --> 02:04:11.800 Yeah, and that's like you you're making sense because it's like it's not 1456 02:04:11.960 --> 02:04:17.439 separate because baptism incorporates you into Christ's body, which is connected to him because 1457 02:04:17.439 --> 02:04:21.479 he united himself to human nature, into all these things that are connected, 1458 02:04:21.560 --> 02:04:27.079 rather than being separate. Right, Yeah, good questions. Thanks if you 1459 02:04:27.119 --> 02:04:30.039 man appreciate that. Uh yeah, We're gonna move on to the next person. 1460 02:04:33.720 --> 02:04:39.399 By the way, here is I finally found it. It's letter seven, 1461 02:04:39.520 --> 02:04:44.520 which is somehow now deleted from the public page of New Advent. Very 1462 02:04:44.560 --> 02:04:47.039 suspicious. I have no idea why they would do that. Why would New 1463 02:04:47.039 --> 02:04:49.159 Advent? You can see the link is still there. We're at it right 1464 02:04:49.159 --> 02:04:59.800 here. Look letter seven. Look at that centers all alien from the Catholic 1465 02:04:59.840 --> 02:05:05.239 Church. Heretics and schismatics are excluded from glorifying God, and thus they cannot 1466 02:05:05.239 --> 02:05:16.520 be properly observers of the feasts. So in Athanasius's mind, if you're outside 1467 02:05:16.560 --> 02:05:21.399 the church, if you're a heretic or schismatic, doing all the rituals all 1468 02:05:21.439 --> 02:05:27.199 day long is not going to do you any good if you've lost the faith. 1469 02:05:29.279 --> 02:05:43.119 So journer, what's up? Hello, Yes, sir, Thanks Jay 1470 02:05:43.399 --> 02:05:46.159 for taking the time always for doing that. Hey. Hey, the Lord 1471 02:05:46.159 --> 02:05:53.920 blesses you and your wife. I really appreciate that. I'm currently a Protestant 1472 02:05:54.359 --> 02:05:58.039 and I'm still kind of working through different things. And one of the things 1473 02:05:58.039 --> 02:06:01.119 that I've been the last couple of years and watching you on and related to 1474 02:06:01.159 --> 02:06:10.079 PSA, like you had mentioned the subst tournament. I fully believe and understand 1475 02:06:10.119 --> 02:06:16.079 what you're talking about. How it's historianism. I'm curious how what's the like 1476 02:06:16.199 --> 02:06:21.600 the Church Fathers or the Orthodox view of like the word propitiation, you know, 1477 02:06:21.720 --> 02:06:27.399 Protestants is trying to use like especially like first John two two and like 1478 02:06:27.640 --> 02:06:30.920 Romans three twenty five, Like what is that view because you know, they 1479 02:06:30.960 --> 02:06:33.479 always say that words specifically is about wrath and all this kind of stuff. 1480 02:06:33.479 --> 02:06:38.399 So I'm kind of curious on that. Yeah, I think that when I 1481 02:06:38.439 --> 02:06:44.640 was saying earlier that the the payment is not offered to God to pay him 1482 02:06:44.680 --> 02:06:47.800 off, that does not I did not mean to suggest that there's no sense 1483 02:06:47.840 --> 02:06:54.680 in which there's like quote punishment or propitiation. Uh, but in our review, 1484 02:06:54.880 --> 02:06:59.079 that doesn't mean what the Protestant think it means. So let me give 1485 02:06:59.079 --> 02:07:04.560 you an example where John Damascus comments on this from the Orthodox view. I 1486 02:07:04.600 --> 02:07:11.640 think his take on it is really probably the best if you got a an 1487 02:07:11.760 --> 02:07:15.640 exposition to the Orthodox faith, Book three, and if you scroll down to 1488 02:07:15.680 --> 02:07:20.720 the very end of book three is where he talks about what happened in the 1489 02:07:20.760 --> 02:07:26.720 death of Christ. So he talks about the deification of the flesh, the 1490 02:07:26.600 --> 02:07:31.479 theandric energies. And then if you get down to about twenty five six, 1491 02:07:32.840 --> 02:07:36.600 John Damascus talks about what happened in the passion and the death of Christ. 1492 02:07:36.800 --> 02:07:43.479 So he does use the term punishment, I think at one point here, 1493 02:07:45.279 --> 02:07:48.640 but we're going to see what that exactly means in relationship to the death of 1494 02:07:48.760 --> 02:07:56.319 Christ. And he says concerning the fact that the divinity of the logos or 1495 02:07:56.319 --> 02:08:01.279 the Word remained inseparable from the soul and the body even at the point of 1496 02:08:01.319 --> 02:08:05.520 the Lord's death, and that his person or subsistence continued to be one. 1497 02:08:07.399 --> 02:08:09.479 Since our Lord Jesus Christ was without sin, for he committed no sin. 1498 02:08:09.920 --> 02:08:13.640 Rather he took away the sin of the world. Nor was there any deceit 1499 02:08:13.720 --> 02:08:18.319 found in his mouth. He was not subject to death, since death came 1500 02:08:18.319 --> 02:08:22.399 into the world through sin Romans five twelve. He dies therefore because he took 1501 02:08:22.560 --> 02:08:28.359 on himself death on our behalf. And he makes himself an offering to the 1502 02:08:28.399 --> 02:08:31.359 Father for our sakes, For we had sinned against him, and it was 1503 02:08:33.159 --> 02:08:35.840 meet that he should receive ransom for us, and that we should thus be 1504 02:08:35.880 --> 02:08:39.680 delivered from condemnation. God forbid that the blood of the Lord should have been 1505 02:08:39.680 --> 02:08:43.359 offered to the tyrants. So it is a propitiation and an offering of the 1506 02:08:43.399 --> 02:08:48.359 human nature and the death of the human nature to the Father, and by 1507 02:08:48.399 --> 02:08:52.159 extension, to the whole triad. As the later Byzantine sono'd say, after 1508 02:08:52.279 --> 02:08:56.479 tasting of a sinless, life giving body, he perishes and brings up again 1509 02:08:56.600 --> 02:09:01.399 all of old whom he swallowed up, that the heroine of Hades, that's 1510 02:09:01.000 --> 02:09:05.800 all of those that are dead in shield. For as darkness appeared upon the 1511 02:09:05.840 --> 02:09:09.159 introduction of the light, so death is repulsed before the assault of life, 1512 02:09:09.600 --> 02:09:13.800 that is Christ's descent into Hades is what he's talking about. Thus, he 1513 02:09:13.840 --> 02:09:16.640 brings life to all, but he brings death to the destroyer. Wherefore although 1514 02:09:16.680 --> 02:09:22.600 he died as a man and his Holy Spirit was severed from his immaculate body. 1515 02:09:22.880 --> 02:09:26.520 So what does John Damascus think is going on in the death of the 1516 02:09:26.560 --> 02:09:31.199 Lord. Is it a punishment of the Father damning the son like traditional Calvinists 1517 02:09:31.199 --> 02:09:35.800 and Lutherans say, No, it is the severance of the human soul from 1518 02:09:35.800 --> 02:09:41.840 the human body. Because the divine nature divinity is impassable. Christ could never 1519 02:09:41.880 --> 02:09:46.399 be damned because he shares the same nature as the Father and the Spirit, 1520 02:09:46.439 --> 02:09:48.800 the same will as the Father and the Spirit. And because the paracaresis in 1521 02:09:48.960 --> 02:09:52.720 divine and dwelling, you could never have one person the trinity, being damned. 1522 02:09:54.399 --> 02:09:56.079 So what the Father and the Holy Spirit no longer in dwell the son? 1523 02:09:56.880 --> 02:10:00.760 They set their will against the son when he as the same will as 1524 02:10:00.800 --> 02:10:05.800 then that's crazy, it's blasphemous. Is anti trinitarian. No, the punishment 1525 02:10:05.239 --> 02:10:09.159 is the severance of the human soul from the human body, which is the 1526 02:10:09.159 --> 02:10:13.520 same punishment combination that all human beings have undergone. But the difference is that 1527 02:10:13.600 --> 02:10:16.760 Christ was a righteous man and did not deserve the punishment right, and so 1528 02:10:16.880 --> 02:10:24.119 he could offer up to the Father an unjust severance of human soul from human 1529 02:10:24.119 --> 02:10:28.520 body, and by destroying the power of Satan in Hades and then resurrecting that 1530 02:10:28.600 --> 02:10:33.800 body when he ascended. That becomes the fulfillment of the offering of the human 1531 02:10:33.880 --> 02:10:39.279 nature that he assumed to the Father, and by extension also to the Son 1532 02:10:39.399 --> 02:10:43.680 and to the Spirit, because the son can offer up his own human nature 1533 02:10:43.720 --> 02:10:48.000 which is now healed and restored to the Father in the Holy Spirit. So 1534 02:10:48.000 --> 02:10:50.399 it's a triadic offering. By the way, this is all in the liturgy 1535 02:10:50.439 --> 02:10:56.319 itself. It's not just my theology. When the visiting Synod condemned Satirico's, 1536 02:10:56.399 --> 02:11:00.800 they did so on the basis of the liturgy thine own, of thine own, 1537 02:11:00.920 --> 02:11:03.640 we offer unto thee. So you under said that the liturgy of reflecting 1538 02:11:03.640 --> 02:11:07.520 the same thing. John Mascus is teaching right here where he says for body 1539 02:11:07.520 --> 02:11:11.600 and resul received simultaneous at the beginning of their being, the subsistence of the 1540 02:11:11.600 --> 02:11:13.760 word. There he's talking about. Let me let me go up a little 1541 02:11:13.760 --> 02:11:18.159 bit. Although he died his man, his spirit was severed from his body, 1542 02:11:18.239 --> 02:11:22.119 yet his divinity remain inseparable from both, I mean, his soul and 1543 02:11:22.199 --> 02:11:26.680 body, So that even though the one divine hypostasis. That's the second person 1544 02:11:26.680 --> 02:11:30.279 of the Godhead was not divided into two because you might think, well, 1545 02:11:30.279 --> 02:11:33.720 when he died and his soul was severed from his body, was the logos 1546 02:11:33.760 --> 02:11:39.640 severed. No, the logos always remained a single divine hypostasis, united to 1547 02:11:39.800 --> 02:11:45.880 both the body in the tomb and to the soul as it descended into hades. 1548 02:11:45.920 --> 02:11:48.039 In fact, the logos, the second person of the Godhead is the 1549 02:11:48.079 --> 02:11:54.000 person to the soul that descends into hades. For body and soul received simultaneously 1550 02:11:54.319 --> 02:11:58.920 the beginning of their being in the subsistence of the word. In other words, 1551 02:11:58.079 --> 02:12:03.359 the logos create the body and the soul, which he would unite himself 1552 02:12:03.359 --> 02:12:07.359 too. Although they were severed from one another by death, body and soul, 1553 02:12:07.560 --> 02:12:11.880 yet they continued, each of them to have the one divine person or 1554 02:12:11.920 --> 02:12:18.600 subsistence of the word as their person. Body and soul have one person that 1555 02:12:18.720 --> 02:12:22.359 still unites them, that is still the subject or the agent of that body, 1556 02:12:22.640 --> 02:12:24.880 the divine person of the Word, so that the one subsistence of the 1557 02:12:24.880 --> 02:12:28.720 word alike is subsistence to words of the Word and of the soul in the 1558 02:12:28.720 --> 02:12:33.800 body. And no time was there any other soul or body having a subsistence 1559 02:12:33.840 --> 02:12:39.479 of their own. That's meant to exclude Nestorianism. So the human soul or 1560 02:12:39.560 --> 02:12:43.920 body never had their own agency, They were never their own person, even 1561 02:12:43.960 --> 02:12:48.159 in the death of Christ. And by the way, this refutes an Astorianism, 1562 02:12:48.239 --> 02:12:52.880 and it refused Monophysitism. The death of Christ refutes both of these right 1563 02:12:52.920 --> 02:12:56.399 here, because if he's a Tertian quid, as Monophysites think, then the 1564 02:12:56.439 --> 02:13:01.479 divine nature died. Okay, you can die, it's in passable. So 1565 02:13:01.520 --> 02:13:07.520 you have to have these distinctions even after the incarnation. Very simple, for 1566 02:13:07.600 --> 02:13:11.920 although he says Christ was always one, the subsistence of the Word was forever 1567 02:13:11.960 --> 02:13:16.760 one, and although the soul was separated from the body hypostatically, they were 1568 02:13:16.840 --> 02:13:20.600 united through the person of the Word. The Word is the second person of 1569 02:13:20.600 --> 02:13:24.760 God at the divine personal Word. And then he goes on to say that 1570 02:13:24.159 --> 02:13:28.760 the corruption, the destruction of the flesh meant that when his human soul was 1571 02:13:28.800 --> 02:13:33.960 severed from his human body, he went down into hades. There's a whole 1572 02:13:33.960 --> 02:13:37.960 section on the descent into hades, but there is a section where he talks 1573 02:13:39.000 --> 02:13:52.319 about that he underwent. I think John Damascus refers to punishment in regard to 1574 02:13:52.359 --> 02:13:56.079 the severance of the human soul from the human nature or from the human body. 1575 02:13:56.239 --> 02:14:00.000 So there is a section where he talks about that, but he owners 1576 02:14:00.079 --> 02:14:03.079 and that it's just the death that we all undergo. It's not Jesus being 1577 02:14:03.159 --> 02:14:07.359 damned and going to Hell in the sense of like I mean, he goes 1578 02:14:07.359 --> 02:14:11.039 to Hades, but he's not damned by the Father by going into Hades. 1579 02:14:11.399 --> 02:14:15.640 So Christ's soul, when it was deified, descend it into Hades in order 1580 02:14:15.680 --> 02:14:18.159 that just as a son of righteousness rose upon those in the earth Maluchi four 1581 02:14:18.239 --> 02:14:22.359 too, so likewise he might bring light to those who sit in the earth, 1582 02:14:22.439 --> 02:14:26.039 under the earth and darkness and in shadow of death Isaiah nine two. 1583 02:14:26.119 --> 02:14:28.760 That's talking about Hades. So this is the herrowing of Hades. Jesus goes 1584 02:14:28.760 --> 02:14:31.680 into the kingdom of death, the kingdom of Satan, destroys the power of 1585 02:14:31.760 --> 02:14:35.800 Satan. When he resurrects and brings body and soul back together, it's fully 1586 02:14:35.800 --> 02:14:45.239 deified, as Saint Cyril says. And then so then Second Corinthians like five, 1587 02:14:45.279 --> 02:14:48.840 where it says like he made him her new no sin became sin on 1588 02:14:48.840 --> 02:14:50.600 our behalf. Would that be like the guilt of sin. No, it's 1589 02:14:50.840 --> 02:14:56.199 it's called by appropriation. John Damascus has a section at where he actually quotes 1590 02:14:56.279 --> 02:14:58.600 that very verse. I'm just trying to find it, and he says, 1591 02:14:58.760 --> 02:15:05.239 tack like this mean by appropriation. By appropriation just means as if he were 1592 02:15:05.399 --> 02:15:09.199 a sinner, or as if he were a curse. The son of God 1593 02:15:09.239 --> 02:15:13.279 cannot be a curse. By the way, sin doesn't have ontological existence, 1594 02:15:13.520 --> 02:15:18.000 so when it says He made him to be sin, he doesn't literally become 1595 02:15:18.079 --> 02:15:24.000 sin. We would be Manicheans if we thought that which is here here it 1596 02:15:24.039 --> 02:15:30.760 is chapter twenty five concerning the appropriation, that is that just means by it 1597 02:15:30.800 --> 02:15:33.479 appears to be. It is observed that there are two appropriations, one that 1598 02:15:33.560 --> 02:15:37.439 is natural and essential, and one that is relative. The natural and essential 1599 02:15:37.479 --> 02:15:41.439 one is that by which the Lord and his love for man, took on 1600 02:15:41.600 --> 02:15:45.880 himself our nature, with all of our natural attributes, becoming in nature, 1601 02:15:46.239 --> 02:15:50.159 in truth a man, and by making trial of that which is natural. 1602 02:15:50.479 --> 02:15:56.239 But personal and relative appropriation is when one assumes the person of another relatively, 1603 02:15:56.600 --> 02:15:58.079 for instance, out of pity or love, and so it goes on. 1604 02:15:58.159 --> 02:16:03.199 He goes on to say that, yeah, Christ did not literally become a 1605 02:16:03.239 --> 02:16:09.000 curse for us, but that he took upon himself and was accounted as a 1606 02:16:09.079 --> 02:16:13.039 curse right for our sakes Galatians three fifteen. So it doesn't it doesn't mean 1607 02:16:13.039 --> 02:16:18.920 that he literally becomes death sin curse. It means he's accounted as such. 1608 02:16:22.680 --> 02:16:28.239 That's good. I have another question around like liturgy and like holy tradition. 1609 02:16:28.359 --> 02:16:31.560 I don't know if that's on top of it. You can ask whatever you 1610 02:16:31.600 --> 02:16:37.760 want, so I'm pretty I don't know much on it about the liturgy or 1611 02:16:39.079 --> 02:16:43.920 the Holy tradition. But one of the like I guess skepticisms that I have 1612 02:16:43.079 --> 02:16:48.799 is that, like, if it was passed down from the Apostles, why 1613 02:16:48.840 --> 02:16:52.920 are there so many different variations, like even within Eastern Orthodox or Catholic Why 1614 02:16:52.000 --> 02:16:54.879 why are there all these different, you know, liturgies. Why is it 1615 02:16:54.959 --> 02:17:01.360 not because the Apostles went and established liturgies for different pece people speaking different languages 1616 02:17:01.399 --> 02:17:07.120 with different customs. Okay, So it's not like the Apostles went out with 1617 02:17:07.239 --> 02:17:13.959 like the one Apostolic liturgy, right, So there's different liturgical traditions in the 1618 02:17:15.000 --> 02:17:20.040 main seas of early Christendom, Rome, Alexandria and Antioch or the first main 1619 02:17:20.280 --> 02:17:24.879 three patrine seas, right, but there's other ones as well, right, 1620 02:17:26.000 --> 02:17:28.319 because the church gets set up in Ephesus, the church gets set up you 1621 02:17:28.319 --> 02:17:33.520 know in you know sartists in all these different places and mentioned the Book of 1622 02:17:33.520 --> 02:17:39.840 Revelations. So there's there's Apostolic churches set up all over the place. And 1623 02:17:39.200 --> 02:17:43.360 the fundamental sort of pattern of the liturgy is pretty much the same, whether 1624 02:17:43.399 --> 02:17:48.879 it's the Roman Rite or whether it's what would later be called Liturgy of Saint 1625 02:17:48.920 --> 02:17:54.719 Mark or Liturgy of Saint Basil, Liturgy of Saint John Christistom. I mean 1626 02:17:54.000 --> 02:18:01.000 there's kind of a there's a basic pattern that's very similar, but there's distinctions 1627 02:18:01.079 --> 02:18:05.840 because they're also trying to translate it into the vernacular. Right. We're not 1628 02:18:05.920 --> 02:18:09.559 Roman Catholics where that we think that Latin is like some magical language. It's 1629 02:18:09.680 --> 02:18:18.280 the Church has always put the language into the vernacular. What's a good one 1630 02:18:18.520 --> 02:18:22.520 for like an English you know to go check out? I guess you mean 1631 02:18:22.559 --> 02:18:28.280 an Orthodox church? Yeah, are you in the US or where you're at 1632 02:18:28.360 --> 02:18:35.200 I'm in Arizona. I don't know exactly what was going on in Arizona, 1633 02:18:35.280 --> 02:18:39.040 but I would go for a Russian Orthodox church, an Antiochian church, a 1634 02:18:39.079 --> 02:18:46.280 Serbian church, or a Romanian church. Okay, cool, you'll just have 1635 02:18:46.360 --> 02:18:50.840 to check out different ones and see which which ones are good. Yeah, 1636 02:18:50.920 --> 02:18:54.920 good questions though, appreciate it. Man, Okay, sure, father Deacon, 1637 02:18:54.959 --> 02:19:05.079 are you there? I'm because you know you and I talked about the 1638 02:19:05.079 --> 02:19:11.680 female substitutionary atonement and then I gave a kind of chiss kind of continuing education 1639 02:19:11.959 --> 02:19:24.959 orthodoxy education on it, and these words atonement, propitiation, sacrifice. What 1640 02:19:24.040 --> 02:19:30.200 do we notice. It's the same mistake. They assume that there's only kind 1641 02:19:30.200 --> 02:19:35.040 of one meaning, right, and it's the meaning that they mean that supports 1642 02:19:35.079 --> 02:19:39.159 their position, and then they read that in but words don't actually work that 1643 02:19:39.200 --> 02:19:48.000 way. So with the propitiation, it's this kind of idea that a sacrifice 1644 02:19:48.040 --> 02:19:52.680 to one meaning of it could be a sacrifice to appease an angry God. 1645 02:19:54.239 --> 02:20:01.360 And so it's the pagan view. And and then what's funny is, well, 1646 02:20:01.399 --> 02:20:05.799 that's obviously where it can only have one meaning, and that's the meanings 1647 02:20:05.879 --> 02:20:13.079 here. So I'm gonna build this whole foreign theology pagan dealty around that. 1648 02:20:16.159 --> 02:20:22.440 And they constantly do this, right, especially the Reform and the Calvinists with 1649 02:20:22.600 --> 02:20:28.399 reading Romans and these various things that and offering. So I like that you 1650 02:20:30.280 --> 02:20:43.079 quoted the Saint John Damascus on that that the humanities offered to the Trinity. 1651 02:20:43.040 --> 02:20:50.200 I'm trying to think what else with this that's from the exact exposition of the 1652 02:20:50.399 --> 02:20:56.680 Orthodox faith. I know, greg Saint Gregory Palamos also talks about it, 1653 02:20:56.719 --> 02:21:05.920 talks about So the idea is that the fathers themselves give a clear understanding of 1654 02:21:05.000 --> 02:21:13.200 what these words mean and how you're supposed to read them. Yeah. Absolutely, 1655 02:21:13.280 --> 02:21:18.680 what ransom and offering in those things? Anyways? Yeah, have you 1656 02:21:20.200 --> 02:21:24.319 got a second? Could you man the chat for a second? Oh? 1657 02:21:24.399 --> 02:21:30.319 Yeah, the chat? No, I mean on here? Okay, how 1658 02:21:30.360 --> 02:21:35.040 do I do that? Just talk to these people? D O? What's 1659 02:21:35.120 --> 02:21:39.479 updo? What's up to you? Hey? You can you hear me? 1660 02:21:39.799 --> 02:21:46.280 Yeah? I can hear you. Okay, I'm not really here to debate. 1661 02:21:46.319 --> 02:21:48.520 I just said a few questions for you. Jay. I've sort of 1662 02:21:48.520 --> 02:21:52.360 been listening to your channel for a while, but now I've been watching your 1663 02:21:52.399 --> 02:21:58.559 stuff more recently, so I guess you usually use presuppositional argument. So I 1664 02:21:58.600 --> 02:22:03.719 was actually wondering if you could maybe point me to a good sources on how 1665 02:22:03.719 --> 02:22:07.879 to learn them. And I was actually looking around on presupposition earlier today and 1666 02:22:09.319 --> 02:22:11.840 they seem to have a bad reputation. I was on Reddit, so that 1667 02:22:11.920 --> 02:22:16.079 might explain it. But people were implying they were city arguments. So can 1668 02:22:16.120 --> 02:22:22.559 you maybe explain that why people dislike presuppositional arguments? Probably, dick and you 1669 02:22:22.559 --> 02:22:28.079 want to address that. I got to use the restaurant. So it's just 1670 02:22:28.200 --> 02:22:37.639 kind of a misunderstanding of what presupposition all arguments are. So they they straw 1671 02:22:37.719 --> 02:22:41.920 me on them because of their misunderstanding, thinking, well, they're not arguments. 1672 02:22:41.959 --> 02:22:46.159 You just presuppose this thing and then it's kind of blind faith and then 1673 02:22:46.200 --> 02:22:50.799 you don't have to argue for anything. Well, that's not what presuppositions. 1674 02:22:50.879 --> 02:22:58.920 It is, first and foremost, it's the recognition that we all presupposed things 1675 02:23:01.159 --> 02:23:07.120 by which we interpret evidence and argue things. In other words, there's nobody 1676 02:23:07.159 --> 02:23:16.479 that's presupposition lists, if that makes sense, and that frames the way that 1677 02:23:16.520 --> 02:23:20.639 we do arguments. What constitutes is evidence. And a lot of this goes 1678 02:23:22.440 --> 02:23:33.079 to what even the secular epistemologists. Modern epismologists like quin at Al had already 1679 02:23:33.120 --> 02:23:39.239 recognized that the myth of the given of this kind of neutrality, that evidence 1680 02:23:39.360 --> 02:23:46.399 just kind of stands on its own kind of current correspondence theories. And so 1681 02:23:46.559 --> 02:23:58.959 that's the first step in presupposition is that there is no independent evidence independent aret 1682 02:24:00.079 --> 02:24:07.479 me. It's independent of your framework, your paradigm, your presuppositions. So 1683 02:24:07.600 --> 02:24:15.280 that's point number one. Then it goes into well, what would serve as 1684 02:24:15.280 --> 02:24:22.319 far as presuppositions as the requits the kind of justification criteria, So it moves 1685 02:24:22.360 --> 02:24:33.920 into a kind of a meta epistemological consideration of what constitutes as justifications. And 1686 02:24:33.000 --> 02:24:41.000 the problem is that in the non presuppositional view, and it doesn't mean any 1687 02:24:41.040 --> 02:24:48.120 presupposition is correct, but in the kind of evidentialist view, it's and you 1688 02:24:48.159 --> 02:24:56.000 see this in natural theology, you see this in you know, Cartesian whatever 1689 02:24:56.040 --> 02:25:05.479 the philosophy may be. They end up making arbitrary presuppositions about what counts is 1690 02:25:05.680 --> 02:25:11.680 justifications. And if you question them on that, oh no, that's where 1691 02:25:11.719 --> 02:25:13.639 you just have to start. But if you ask them all, well, 1692 02:25:13.639 --> 02:25:16.719 why is that a justification? Why is that? Or I need to start, 1693 02:25:18.120 --> 02:25:24.799 they can't answer that. So they never offer anything that and they themselves 1694 02:25:24.840 --> 02:25:30.040 have presuppositions i e. First principles, they never do the work that they 1695 02:25:30.079 --> 02:25:37.520 wanted to do, and so there are either viciously circular, Well it's true, 1696 02:25:37.760 --> 02:25:41.520 if my whole paradigm in system's true, then it would make it true. 1697 02:25:41.760 --> 02:25:48.719 But that's exactly what's in question, or it's simply just arbitrarily asserted as 1698 02:25:48.760 --> 02:25:54.319 a justification and never even gets into the domain of justification. Well it's because 1699 02:25:54.360 --> 02:26:00.120 I say so. So really, what the presuppositions would be looking at is, 1700 02:26:00.239 --> 02:26:03.159 well, what sort of presuppositions would work, would do the work? 1701 02:26:05.200 --> 02:26:16.879 What possibly could satisfy those kinds of demands that it's a justification for these other 1702 02:26:16.079 --> 02:26:22.159 justification criteria. And when you think about it, nothing else, nothing can 1703 02:26:22.200 --> 02:26:30.479 do the work other than God in his revelation. What possibly could that's basically 1704 02:26:30.479 --> 02:26:35.799 the presuppositions ideas. So people get really upset with presuppositionism. Why because they're 1705 02:26:35.799 --> 02:26:43.319 holding to their ideological idols. They want they want you just to grant them 1706 02:26:43.440 --> 02:26:48.959 all their presuppositions so they can make their arguments. But you're moving the question 1707 02:26:48.120 --> 02:26:54.799 back farther. You're moving it to, well, what's your criteria for your 1708 02:26:54.920 --> 02:26:58.360 justification criteria? And does that do the work. Oh, it doesn't do 1709 02:26:58.440 --> 02:27:03.680 the work. So hopefully that kind of explains. Does that make sense? 1710 02:27:03.680 --> 02:27:09.000 Well, what I've seen so I've listened to I've mostly actually lately been listening 1711 02:27:09.000 --> 02:27:13.159 to you debate Protestants on solar scripture, and from the few debates that I've 1712 02:27:13.639 --> 02:27:18.840 listened to, you seem to be encountering the same problem, which is trying 1713 02:27:18.840 --> 02:27:22.760 to get them to justify the scriptures that they are, you know, using 1714 02:27:22.799 --> 02:27:26.239 for solo scripture, like how do you know which ones are the actual canon? 1715 02:27:26.959 --> 02:27:31.360 And I guess this applies, you know, the same kind of thing 1716 02:27:31.399 --> 02:27:35.040 as with the atheists, where you're trying to get them to explain why they 1717 02:27:35.040 --> 02:27:39.799 believe a thing, and they're trying to just you know, force you into 1718 02:27:39.079 --> 02:27:43.000 the model that they've constructed the debate and in which they would win the debate 1719 02:27:43.079 --> 02:27:46.600 if you accepted their you know, I guess assumptions, right, you know, 1720 02:27:46.680 --> 02:27:52.440 trying to debate the Bible based on you know, only a logical empirical 1721 02:27:52.440 --> 02:27:56.399 framework. That's what they want, but you know, since you're not accepting 1722 02:27:56.399 --> 02:28:00.760 it. I don't think I've seen any of these debates actually go that direction. 1723 02:28:00.840 --> 02:28:05.239 They either pretend to get confused or they are just confused about what you're 1724 02:28:05.319 --> 02:28:09.159 asking them. So I guess that's sort of why I'm more. I don't 1725 02:28:09.159 --> 02:28:11.479 know if you have literature on presuppositional arguments. Yeah, I mean there's tons 1726 02:28:11.520 --> 02:28:16.840 of literature in the academic literature just on transcendental arguments, from people like p. 1727 02:28:18.040 --> 02:28:22.079 F. Strawsen or Barry Stroud, you know, people even questioning it. 1728 02:28:22.479 --> 02:28:24.680 I mean, there's a lot of literature on transcendental arguments, which are 1729 02:28:24.680 --> 02:28:28.399 that's separate from the transcendent argument for God's existence. I mean there's some overlap, 1730 02:28:28.479 --> 02:28:31.680 but they're different things. I mean, the argument is just about necessary 1731 02:28:31.680 --> 02:28:35.799 conditions. Basically, X is the necessary condition of why why therefore X. 1732 02:28:35.959 --> 02:28:39.799 So that's the basic form of the argument. And then what we're doing in 1733 02:28:39.799 --> 02:28:45.600 the transit argument for God is basically just saying that when it comes to worldviews 1734 02:28:45.600 --> 02:28:48.680 as a whole, the only way to prove or disprove entire world views is 1735 02:28:48.719 --> 02:28:52.000 to compare the two world views. And if the Christian world view is the 1736 02:28:52.079 --> 02:28:56.040 only one that in terms of its metaphysics, it's ethics, and it's epistemology, 1737 02:28:56.079 --> 02:29:01.159 that it can actually do the grounding work and can give a logical, 1738 02:29:01.200 --> 02:29:07.360 coherent justification for how it's possible to have knowledge claims, ethical claims, or 1739 02:29:07.479 --> 02:29:13.280 reality claims metaphysical claims. Then Christianity is the true worldview. So that's the 1740 02:29:13.399 --> 02:29:18.000 argument. And most of the time people aren't understanding what paradigm level questions are, 1741 02:29:18.079 --> 02:29:20.760 or they don't understand what a transit argument is, and they think that, 1742 02:29:20.360 --> 02:29:24.959 oh, you're just saying God exists because he must exist, or I 1743 02:29:24.000 --> 02:29:28.639 presuppose God exists, therefore he exists. No, that's not the argument. 1744 02:29:28.719 --> 02:29:33.079 The argument is X is the necessary condition of why why Therefore X. God's 1745 02:29:33.079 --> 02:29:37.520 existence, for example, is the necessary precondition of knowledge. We have knowledge, 1746 02:29:37.559 --> 02:29:41.159 therefore God exists. God is the necessary precondition. The Christian metaphysic is 1747 02:29:41.159 --> 02:29:48.440 the necessary precondition for reality claims. We make reality claims, therefore the Christian 1748 02:29:48.440 --> 02:29:50.760 metaphysic is the case. That's how we're making the argument. Now I'm not 1749 02:29:50.879 --> 02:29:54.680 I understand that an atheist isn't going to accept that. That's why we have 1750 02:29:54.719 --> 02:30:00.280 to do the groundwork of going through and explaining why this or that argument doesn't 1751 02:30:00.319 --> 02:30:03.239 work, or this or that thing that they're claiming is inconsistent with their paradigm. 1752 02:30:03.520 --> 02:30:07.719 So we are first of all, rejecting as far as he can point 1753 02:30:07.760 --> 02:30:11.280 it out that there's any such thing as common ground, or that there's any 1754 02:30:11.319 --> 02:30:16.520 facts that are not theory laden. We would say that everything is in some 1755 02:30:16.559 --> 02:30:20.879 way theory laden, because nothing is just self evident, and a lot of 1756 02:30:20.399 --> 02:30:26.200 argumentation, a lot of evidentialism or foundationalism and epistemology. They want to believe 1757 02:30:26.280 --> 02:30:28.319 that things are just self evident, they're just clear, they're just obvious as 1758 02:30:28.319 --> 02:30:31.920 to what they are. But we just simply call them to the mat on 1759 02:30:33.079 --> 02:30:35.680 that and point out that that doesn't exist. And you can easily demonstrate that 1760 02:30:35.680 --> 02:30:41.159 that doesn't exist because they're always caught in some kind of circle, which again 1761 02:30:41.239 --> 02:30:46.639 foundationalism rejects circular argmentation. Presubositionalism says, at the paradigm level, everybody is 1762 02:30:46.680 --> 02:30:54.280 a circular argument proponent, and so the foundations must either accept circularity or he 1763 02:30:54.360 --> 02:30:58.879 must accept that there's just self evidence for his founding maxims, which becomes arbitrary 1764 02:30:58.239 --> 02:31:03.600 in which he can't just divine. So really there's no other option to go 1765 02:31:03.639 --> 02:31:07.959 to, we would argue, other than a form of coherence or a form 1766 02:31:09.040 --> 02:31:13.920 of paradigm level consistency. So that's not coherence theory in in a pagan atheist 1767 02:31:13.959 --> 02:31:20.879 sense, is just saying that world views are holistic, epistemic holism. None 1768 02:31:20.920 --> 02:31:24.239 of these things exist in a vacuum or operate in some sort of independent self 1769 02:31:24.280 --> 02:31:31.799 evidence. Okay, I got a series of questions that are somewhat related. 1770 02:31:31.840 --> 02:31:35.799 So the next one is, I know you have an Orthodox reading list. 1771 02:31:35.840 --> 02:31:37.760 I haven't checked it out yet. Do you have a reading list based off 1772 02:31:37.879 --> 02:31:41.360 like the you know, global elites or you know, the sort of conspiracies 1773 02:31:41.399 --> 02:31:45.000 that we see going on today? I mean I have some way. Do 1774 02:31:45.079 --> 02:31:48.920 I have a global elites book list? Yeah? Yeah, and just stuff 1775 02:31:48.959 --> 02:31:54.840 about like the conspiracies we see happening. Yeah, my website has a giant 1776 02:31:54.840 --> 02:31:58.120 book list. Okay, yeah, I'll check that out. I mean there's 1777 02:31:58.120 --> 02:32:03.479 also a book. There's also recommended book on presubsitional arguments there too. Okay, 1778 02:32:03.639 --> 02:32:07.760 yeah, I really haven't been on the website. So is the the 1779 02:32:07.760 --> 02:32:11.760 other prisoner? Is he actual Orthodox priest? He's a deacon with that PhD? 1780 02:32:13.040 --> 02:32:18.040 Okay, okay, So my next two questions are I guess they're uh, 1781 02:32:18.479 --> 02:32:20.879 they're about Orthodoxy, so I don't really know too much about it. 1782 02:32:20.920 --> 02:32:26.239 But what is the I guess position on like what happens to awarded souls and 1783 02:32:26.239 --> 02:32:30.559 infants or whatever that? Do they do they go to hell? What? 1784 02:32:30.559 --> 02:32:33.799 What's what happens to them? In Orthodoxy? In your world, No, 1785 02:32:33.840 --> 02:32:37.399 we don't believe that. We don't automatically proclaim anyone going to hell because no 1786 02:32:37.399 --> 02:32:39.559 one is. We're not told about who goes to hell. So we're not 1787 02:32:39.920 --> 02:32:50.440 medieval Roman Catholics or yeah, we don't have an Augustinian kind of notion sutoriology, 1788 02:32:52.840 --> 02:33:00.479 subtoriology and anyways, we would say that obviously they don't have any personal 1789 02:33:00.600 --> 02:33:11.360 sense and God's gracious and so yeah, I don't see why they would be 1790 02:33:11.559 --> 02:33:18.479 in the kingdom. But well, I mean we're just simply not told. 1791 02:33:18.520 --> 02:33:20.639 We don't. We just have to commend them to God's God's mercy. So 1792 02:33:20.680 --> 02:33:24.959 we're not told on that. But good question. We're gonna move on. 1793 02:33:24.079 --> 02:33:30.520 So to the guy in the chat about uh A s A s f A 1794 02:33:30.719 --> 02:33:33.680 s f D, I mean, why don't you come make the arguments that 1795 02:33:33.680 --> 02:33:35.520 you're making in the chat? There's the link, So if you want to 1796 02:33:37.079 --> 02:33:41.000 make your point about I don't understand what you're arguing there, but come make 1797 02:33:41.040 --> 02:33:48.680 your argument here otherwise you're just waiting, wasting everyone's time. Also, brother 1798 02:33:48.040 --> 02:33:54.920 sid, why don't you come to the discussion as well? All right? 1799 02:33:54.920 --> 02:34:03.079 Next up is Kine? And what's up Kine? Okay, Well, if 1800 02:34:03.120 --> 02:34:07.280 he's been banned before, just keep banning his account at a point in wasting 1801 02:34:07.319 --> 02:34:11.399 his time. He's just gonna keep creating accounts. It's like these people don't 1802 02:34:11.399 --> 02:34:15.120 have something anything better to do. By the way, to the Protestant talking 1803 02:34:15.120 --> 02:34:20.639 about icon, Orthodox church are full of icons. I mean this is the 1804 02:34:20.719 --> 02:34:26.760 drop your Duro Europa Synagogue from the mid two hundreds in Syria, famous synagogue. 1805 02:34:26.159 --> 02:34:28.639 What do you know, It's full of icons all over the wall. 1806 02:34:28.639 --> 02:34:33.360 Look at that. What's up? Did you want to say something? Dude, 1807 02:34:33.600 --> 02:34:39.159 Caine, you gonna I'm mute? Oh yeah, can you hear me? 1808 02:34:39.319 --> 02:34:41.479 Yes, sir? All right? Cool. I had three, I 1809 02:34:41.479 --> 02:34:48.799 think pretty quick questions. Okay, the first is about the it is the 1810 02:34:48.040 --> 02:34:54.399 I think it was Gregory the second of Constantinople, the patriarch, communical patriarch. 1811 02:34:54.159 --> 02:34:58.959 He talked about a claw. He talked about a response to the affilioquay 1812 02:34:58.079 --> 02:35:05.440 called He's spoke of an eternal manifestation right of the sphere, by the Sun 1813 02:35:05.159 --> 02:35:13.959 and the council of blackne blackernee is this terminology used term manifestation in the Fathers? 1814 02:35:15.680 --> 02:35:20.280 Yes, oh, which which Fathers uses well. Basil and Athenasius talk 1815 02:35:20.319 --> 02:35:28.559 about manifestation, Okay, so they just talk about manifestation in general. No, 1816 02:35:28.639 --> 02:35:31.639 there's a specific point. For example, that both Athenacious and even Cyril 1817 02:35:31.840 --> 02:35:37.079 use about distinguishing essence and energy. So, for example, the you can't 1818 02:35:37.120 --> 02:35:41.360 equate the generation of the son with the act of creating, right, and 1819 02:35:41.399 --> 02:35:45.840 so the argument is made that there has to be a distinction between the act 1820 02:35:46.239 --> 02:35:50.000 of the Father generating the son and the act of creating the world, and 1821 02:35:50.079 --> 02:35:54.079 that leads to the distinction between what is proper to God according to nature and 1822 02:35:54.120 --> 02:35:58.360 what is proper to God according to will and council and soil. Later in 1823 02:35:58.440 --> 02:36:01.719 the Cappadocians, for example, they'll speak about the movement of the spirit being 1824 02:36:01.760 --> 02:36:05.559 the same in the triad as the movement of the energies, and so that 1825 02:36:05.840 --> 02:36:11.760 some of those energies, for example, cannot be only related to the created 1826 02:36:11.840 --> 02:36:18.120 order. So, for example, the energy of divine providence is distinct from 1827 02:36:18.120 --> 02:36:22.799 the energy of divine glory, and that's because Clearly God has always manifested divine 1828 02:36:22.799 --> 02:36:28.879 glory, whereas he has not always exercised providence because he's not always had a 1829 02:36:28.920 --> 02:36:33.000 world over which to be provident because of creation nex Nilo. So the development. 1830 02:36:33.000 --> 02:36:39.920 If you're asking if there's a specification of the eternal manifestation doctrine in the 1831 02:36:39.920 --> 02:36:45.040 Middle Ages and Byzantium, Yes, but the idea is already there in the 1832 02:36:45.079 --> 02:36:52.079 Cappadocians and in Basil and in Athanasius. Okay, and I was I had 1833 02:36:52.079 --> 02:36:56.319 some questions on the energy as since the cincture, and at least one particular 1834 02:36:56.399 --> 02:37:01.079 point, by the way, David just had Doc Bradshaw on discussing that very 1835 02:37:01.079 --> 02:37:05.799 point that you just raised. Okay, cool, I'll check out that video 1836 02:37:05.000 --> 02:37:11.959 David Orhan with Doctor David Bradshaw on the eternal manifestation. Okay, go ahead. 1837 02:37:13.360 --> 02:37:18.680 Someone sent me out a I think part of the book of Vladimir Lawsky's 1838 02:37:18.760 --> 02:37:22.040 Mystical Theology, and he was talking about a section where he was talking about 1839 02:37:22.040 --> 02:37:28.799 how the energies are natural to the divine persons, which I think is what 1840 02:37:28.920 --> 02:37:33.399 it said. Yeah, that's what I just said, they're natural energies, 1841 02:37:33.479 --> 02:37:37.079 right, that's a that's a cappa docian terminology. Okay, because because energy 1842 02:37:37.079 --> 02:37:45.319 proceeds from nature. Okay. And then the distinction, so the energies are 1843 02:37:45.360 --> 02:37:48.559 not the essence, and they're not the persons, right, Persons have an 1844 02:37:48.639 --> 02:37:52.600 essence which makes them what they are the divine persons, and their energies are 1845 02:37:52.719 --> 02:37:58.760 the what proceeds from them in terms of attributes, actions, thought, wills, 1846 02:37:58.799 --> 02:38:03.959 whatever. All these different terminologies are encapsulated under energies because energy can be 1847 02:38:05.120 --> 02:38:09.520 action, it can be attribute, it can be doing a miss power that 1848 02:38:09.680 --> 02:38:13.840 is either actualized or not actualized. It can be all those things. Okay, 1849 02:38:13.959 --> 02:38:18.920 And in this way they're distinct, but don't entail parts, just like 1850 02:38:20.399 --> 02:38:24.360 distinctions between father and son and spirit don't intail parts. Okay, So it's 1851 02:38:24.440 --> 02:38:31.280 the same distinction, correct, Okay. And then my last question is I 1852 02:38:31.319 --> 02:38:39.920 was I've been told that the Roman Catholic Church has dogmatized act the doction of 1853 02:38:39.959 --> 02:38:43.280 God is act as peers, and I was told it was in trend fourth 1854 02:38:43.360 --> 02:38:46.920 Lateran and another council, and I've looked through all their decrees and I can't 1855 02:38:46.920 --> 02:38:50.079 in Vatican Wan and I can't find this. It's true, Yeah, it's 1856 02:38:50.079 --> 02:38:56.520 true that the phrase actus puris is not in the dogmatic definitions, but pretty 1857 02:38:56.600 --> 02:39:01.520 much every theologian that exegetes what's meant by fourth Later and Peter Lombard like, 1858 02:39:01.520 --> 02:39:03.399 if you look at at Ludwig Att, I think it's pages like thirty one, 1859 02:39:05.120 --> 02:39:09.479 nine, thirty one, thirty two at will read them as actus purists. 1860 02:39:09.520 --> 02:39:13.959 If you look at you know Ed Faser's book, I mean he exposits 1861 02:39:13.000 --> 02:39:18.840 it as actus purists. So I mean it's pretty unanimous amongst the Roman Catholics 1862 02:39:18.879 --> 02:39:24.120 that pure act as as what God is is dogmatized, because they do make 1863 02:39:24.120 --> 02:39:30.239 the statement that God is not like his his essence is his existence, which 1864 02:39:30.239 --> 02:39:33.799 is basically to say the same thing as pure act. So basically so even 1865 02:39:33.840 --> 02:39:37.079 though pure act itself, that phrase might not be in a dogmatic statement. 1866 02:39:37.559 --> 02:39:43.120 If you make the statement that God's essence is his existence, which is in 1867 02:39:43.200 --> 02:39:46.799 some of the dogmatic positions, it's it's an equivalent statement saying the same thing, 1868 02:39:48.120 --> 02:39:52.159 okay. And then so then when like for example, I don't know 1869 02:39:52.159 --> 02:39:56.840 if Bona Venturance Scotis have a different view simplicity, but when like the Scotis, 1870 02:39:56.879 --> 02:40:03.959 one is permitted that's not necessarily act as peers and that's dogmatic. Is 1871 02:40:03.000 --> 02:40:09.680 it just the case of one dogma and two interpretations or like what? I 1872 02:40:09.719 --> 02:40:16.159 don't know how they would I mean, so I the identity thesis that's argued 1873 02:40:16.200 --> 02:40:22.760 for at the fourth Lattering Council is is identified specifically as Lombard's identity thesis. 1874 02:40:22.760 --> 02:40:28.040 And Lombard's identity thesis is very strict. So it says that the attributes are 1875 02:40:28.159 --> 02:40:33.719 identical amongst themselves, right, that's the that's the lombard In view. So 1876 02:40:35.319 --> 02:40:37.719 fourth Laterin is saying I can pull it up, feel me to here. 1877 02:40:37.760 --> 02:40:46.479 Fourth Lateran is saying that they accept the Lombard view and that they explicitly identify 1878 02:40:46.840 --> 02:40:52.799 the attributes as equivalents among equivalent amongst themselves, which is what's called identity thesis, 1879 02:40:54.799 --> 02:41:01.920 right right, So how oh, and why a person uh here is 1880 02:41:01.920 --> 02:41:07.799 the section where they accept the Lombard it's kenon two of fourth lettern How and 1881 02:41:07.840 --> 02:41:15.000 why a Scotis could then argue that the formal distinction is then allowable? Is 1882 02:41:16.120 --> 02:41:18.360 I mean, I would just argue that it's an inconsistency in their doctrines. 1883 02:41:18.719 --> 02:41:22.639 And I think that you can see this when you look at Uniate theology as 1884 02:41:22.680 --> 02:41:26.840 well. So it's not just a it's not just a question of Scotism versus 1885 02:41:26.840 --> 02:41:33.120 actives purists. It's also a question of well, there's entire uniate groups that 1886 02:41:33.200 --> 02:41:37.639 reject all of this. So you see, Roman Catholicism allows for all kinds 1887 02:41:37.680 --> 02:41:43.440 of different not just a differences on theology, but differences on dogma as long 1888 02:41:43.479 --> 02:41:46.520 as you submit to the Pope. Because I can be a Uniate and reject 1889 02:41:46.600 --> 02:41:50.799 all of this and still be a Roman Catholic or incommunie with the Pope Catholic. 1890 02:41:50.879 --> 02:41:58.440 Do you see what I'm saying. Yeah, it was just I just 1891 02:41:58.479 --> 02:42:03.479 found it interesting that basically they had the doctrine of general like simplicity, and 1892 02:42:03.520 --> 02:42:07.440 then they had about like two to three permitted interpretations in that if one of 1893 02:42:07.479 --> 02:42:11.760 them was dogmaed, wouldn't make sense to have Well let me let me rephrase 1894 02:42:11.799 --> 02:42:15.799 the let me just rephrase the argument like those forget the Scotis. Let's just 1895 02:42:15.840 --> 02:42:20.280 say, if I'm at uniate and I affirm pallemism, which all Uniates do, 1896 02:42:20.840 --> 02:42:26.799 then how am I supposed to affirm fourth Lattern Council? I mean, 1897 02:42:26.840 --> 02:42:30.479 I mean, I'm not a theologian. I wouldn't be able to know what 1898 02:42:30.680 --> 02:42:33.479 I mean. It's I would assume they could come up with a position, 1899 02:42:33.639 --> 02:42:37.120 Rome would verifire something on that. But how how could there be a position 1900 02:42:37.159 --> 02:42:41.639 on this given the fact that the Palomite Synods condemn the teaching of the Roman 1901 02:42:41.719 --> 02:42:48.440 Church and the Roman Church at twelve seventy four, and then at Florence condemns 1902 02:42:48.479 --> 02:42:50.600 what Palamas teaches. So do you see what I'm saying? Like, the 1903 02:42:50.639 --> 02:42:56.520 Palomite Synods condemned the Roman Catholic position in John Becos the unionizer, right, 1904 02:42:56.559 --> 02:43:01.520 the guy who's arguing for Latin Union. Right. So how is so? 1905 02:43:01.559 --> 02:43:07.639 How is palamism and how how can Palamas, Photius and Mark of Ephesus be 1906 02:43:07.760 --> 02:43:11.200 saints in the Roman Catholic Church now given the fact that they are were formerly 1907 02:43:11.200 --> 02:43:16.639 condemned, and they condemned each other in councils. Oh well, I'm not 1908 02:43:16.680 --> 02:43:24.440 sure about their sainthood. But I've seen different theologians you have attempted to reconcile 1909 02:43:24.559 --> 02:43:30.159 Palamism with you know, Catholic Okay, but let's forget so for whether it's 1910 02:43:30.200 --> 02:43:35.479 reconcilable or not. Were they not formally condemned, They were formally condemned, 1911 02:43:35.559 --> 02:43:39.840 Okay, So the Roman Caclolary Church changed its position on a formal condemnation of 1912 02:43:39.879 --> 02:43:43.399 heretic after several centuries for the purpose of what the humanism for union to have 1913 02:43:43.639 --> 02:43:48.680 more unions come back, right, right for umanism? Yes, okay, 1914 02:43:48.920 --> 02:43:50.840 so we're just as long as we can admit that there's like a change in 1915 02:43:50.879 --> 02:43:54.600 the position, that it's not ultimately about the the That's what the reason I'm 1916 02:43:54.600 --> 02:44:01.479 saying that is that that actually explains how the Roman Calthy position isn't ultimately about 1917 02:44:01.479 --> 02:44:05.879 the theology. It's about you can be a uniate and reject all of this 1918 02:44:05.959 --> 02:44:07.559 theology and do what you want to as long as you accept the pope. 1919 02:44:09.760 --> 02:44:16.280 Okay, that's about all the questions I have. Thank you for answer. 1920 02:44:16.319 --> 02:44:20.280 Yeah. I would say check out the David Irhan video that he did with 1921 02:44:22.600 --> 02:44:26.399 doctor Bradshaw the other day. Was really good. All right, cool, 1922 02:44:26.760 --> 02:44:39.719 thank you? Yeah, good questions Jordan, what's up? Hello? Yes, 1923 02:44:39.799 --> 02:44:46.799 sir, Hello, Jay? I had two quick questions if you don't 1924 02:44:46.840 --> 02:44:54.319 mind, Yeah, what's up? I was wondering two questions. One say 1925 02:44:54.639 --> 02:45:00.399 John Damascus, uh uh yeah? On is the fountain of knowl? He 1926 02:45:00.520 --> 02:45:05.799 gives airstyll. Ten transcendental categories I was wondering, one, how do we 1927 02:45:05.920 --> 02:45:11.360 know that these are like the the final categories and there's not like more categories 1928 02:45:11.799 --> 02:45:16.479 because some people try to deduce them imminently, I guess, versus just using 1929 02:45:16.520 --> 02:45:22.120 Aristotle's method, I'd say probably like and you see this a lot in like 1930 02:45:22.159 --> 02:45:26.280 post Kantianism. Yeah, I was gonna say, with Kantianism, my kid 1931 02:45:26.360 --> 02:45:31.360 deduced more of these. I'm not sure. I'm open to the possibility that 1932 02:45:31.399 --> 02:45:35.639 there's not just ten. That's a good that's a good point. Okay, 1933 02:45:35.680 --> 02:45:39.319 cool, because some people have seen skepticism relatism about trying to deduce the exact 1934 02:45:39.319 --> 02:45:43.760 categories. But for a sign, Yeah, I admit I don't know the 1935 02:45:43.760 --> 02:45:50.920 answer that that's a good question. Another question I have is that regarding the 1936 02:45:50.959 --> 02:45:56.040 Koja too, I see I saw your critique of it, like you were 1937 02:45:56.079 --> 02:46:01.799 debating someone and you said that it presupposed like with philosophy. And also you 1938 02:46:01.879 --> 02:46:05.600 bring up the refutation that one blog posts or the refutation of idealism from Kant 1939 02:46:07.000 --> 02:46:11.719 where he talks about the inner and outer sense, how inner sense presupposed time 1940 02:46:11.799 --> 02:46:16.239 determinations which I determine my own, you know, my my own existence. 1941 02:46:16.280 --> 02:46:20.120 In so we have to have well existing existing isn't occurring and occurring is a 1942 02:46:20.159 --> 02:46:24.399 time determinant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, Yeah, that's what 1943 02:46:24.440 --> 02:46:30.760 I mean. I guess my my criticism is that is that how does that 1944 02:46:31.120 --> 02:46:33.440 challenge the contract tokens? But I think the most like the most that demonstrate 1945 02:46:33.520 --> 02:46:39.760 is that a gaycart in is you know, first and second meditation is wrong 1946 02:46:39.840 --> 02:46:46.079 about the clear and distinct ideas thing where you know, at least private internalism 1947 02:46:46.440 --> 02:46:50.680 to my own private data or like my own you know, mental states. 1948 02:46:50.799 --> 02:46:54.159 Right, but you know, it doesn't I guess, disapprove that there's still 1949 02:46:54.200 --> 02:47:01.399 this principle of consciousness that I still have even kan't believes that there is this 1950 02:47:01.440 --> 02:47:09.239 you know, this principle consciousness that and I think although he does, you 1951 02:47:09.239 --> 02:47:15.079 know, he does well. So even if you were to restrict it to 1952 02:47:15.319 --> 02:47:20.040 just some kind of existing consciousness, the point is that the argument doesn't demonstrate 1953 02:47:20.040 --> 02:47:24.639 that to be the case. It's a non sequitor because the point of the 1954 02:47:24.760 --> 02:47:28.000 argument was to get to the most fundamental thing that doesn't rely on any other 1955 02:47:28.200 --> 02:47:33.799 other things. And so if your argument is returned is still depending upon things 1956 02:47:33.840 --> 02:47:37.760 like linguistic meaning, and if it's still depending upon things like grammar. And 1957 02:47:37.799 --> 02:47:41.840 if it's still depending upon things like the ability to predicate, and if it's 1958 02:47:41.840 --> 02:47:48.319 still depending upon things like the time determinants, then it's not a clear and 1959 02:47:48.360 --> 02:47:54.239 distinct foundational idea. Well, you know, I think they just say it's 1960 02:47:54.239 --> 02:48:00.639 like the most fundamental, just like God's most fundamental presupposition, right like the 1961 02:48:01.000 --> 02:48:03.680 Well but why why should I grant that? Well, but it's not the 1962 02:48:03.719 --> 02:48:09.600 most fundamental if it's relying on time determinants, Well, it's I don't think 1963 02:48:09.000 --> 02:48:13.520 even Descartes says we can even you know, presupposed time even there or wait 1964 02:48:13.559 --> 02:48:18.440 what he's talk a little bit slower. Let's just say it again. So 1965 02:48:18.680 --> 02:48:22.120 I just didn't hear you go ahead that we haven't even deduced the concept of 1966 02:48:22.239 --> 02:48:26.399 time yet. Right, so the argument, right, so the argument's inconsistent. 1967 02:48:28.879 --> 02:48:33.200 The reason I might, you know, you might give it otherwise is 1968 02:48:33.239 --> 02:48:37.280 that he doesn't see it as like a like a proposition. It's more of 1969 02:48:37.280 --> 02:48:43.760 an exclamation, a self referential, self authenticating, like action that's only brought 1970 02:48:43.799 --> 02:48:52.520 about because there's something happening at all. So it's more like imminently deduced rather 1971 02:48:52.600 --> 02:48:56.360 than you know, having this concept of time from the beginning because you know 1972 02:48:56.440 --> 02:48:58.879 the idea of time and space, Like, well, this is just a 1973 02:49:00.079 --> 02:49:05.360 So this is just redefining time as not relating to something that occurs in beginning, 1974 02:49:05.440 --> 02:49:07.200 middle, and in increments. I mean, that's what we mean by 1975 02:49:07.280 --> 02:49:11.360 time. So now time is becoming just the thing that's in question, just 1976 02:49:11.600 --> 02:49:16.520 self recurring consciousness. That's not what time is. Nobody believes that. Nobody 1977 02:49:16.639 --> 02:49:22.479 conceives of time as self recurring consciousness, right, I mean, that's not 1978 02:49:22.520 --> 02:49:26.760 what I'm saying. I'm saying there is time and it is a part. 1979 02:49:28.000 --> 02:49:37.799 Okay, has has he demonstrated time yet in this first proposition from from he 1980 02:49:37.879 --> 02:49:41.360 has it when we have consciousness. No, but it's only after that. 1981 02:49:43.440 --> 02:49:46.040 Okay, then it's not the starting point because it relies on the existence of 1982 02:49:46.079 --> 02:49:50.760 time. Doesn't matter whether he has a clear definition of time. It's just 1983 02:49:50.879 --> 02:49:54.840 the point is that it's relying on something else, and so it's not it's 1984 02:49:54.879 --> 02:50:00.639 not self evident. Well, I mean, like, what ground can we 1985 02:50:00.680 --> 02:50:05.840 say that descartes presupposes the you know, the principle of time because to say 1986 02:50:05.959 --> 02:50:11.520 that to thinking is an occurring or thinking happens, an occurrence is a time 1987 02:50:11.600 --> 02:50:16.639 determination. It is occurring, now it occurred, then it occurred, will 1988 02:50:16.639 --> 02:50:24.479 occur. The phrase itself presupposes time determination. Well, how do we know 1989 02:50:24.840 --> 02:50:28.559 this is like something that's only known after we found out the justification, because 1990 02:50:28.600 --> 02:50:31.760 now now the words don't mean what they typically mean, because now we're having 1991 02:50:31.760 --> 02:50:35.280 to redefine the words to rescue the principle, And so that means it's a 1992 02:50:35.319 --> 02:50:37.559 weak move, right. I mean, do you do you not think the 1993 02:50:37.680 --> 02:50:45.680 argument presupposes language? No, No, because it's a it's a thought itself, 1994 02:50:46.079 --> 02:50:48.200 right, the thought to be the thought to have meaning is linguistic. 1995 02:50:48.280 --> 02:50:54.399 It's translated into a linguistic proposition. So it's not just there's such a thing. 1996 02:50:54.399 --> 02:50:58.760 It's just a thought. That's so it's a meaningless thought. It's not, 1997 02:50:58.959 --> 02:51:01.719 by the way, it's not just a it's an actual argument. He 1998 02:51:01.760 --> 02:51:05.239 thinks it's an argument, right, right, But okay, so if it's 1999 02:51:05.239 --> 02:51:09.319 an argument, it's not just a thought. Well, you like, for 2000 02:51:09.360 --> 02:51:13.440 example, if it's like a you know, transcendental argument, it's kind of 2001 02:51:16.600 --> 02:51:20.000 that's not what a transcendental argument is. Not doing that older people, there 2002 02:51:20.000 --> 02:51:24.920 are people who interpret his argument like that. Yeah, but it's not because 2003 02:51:24.920 --> 02:51:28.959 he's a foundationalist he's the arts foundationalist, Father Deacon, could you speak to 2004 02:51:30.000 --> 02:51:35.399 this? Is it a foundationalist? And he's like a prime I'm not, 2005 02:51:35.760 --> 02:51:46.280 We're not contient, dude. A foundationalist. Descartes is. And again it's 2006 02:51:46.319 --> 02:51:52.799 the same question as first of all, Daycardes critique, because none of the 2007 02:51:52.840 --> 02:51:58.159 things that he says are clear and distinct are ever clear and distinct. And 2008 02:51:58.239 --> 02:52:01.840 then it's even viciously circular. A way that he gets to clear and distinct 2009 02:52:01.959 --> 02:52:07.360 is from non clear and distinct ideas that basically ground that and simply just to 2010 02:52:07.479 --> 02:52:16.360 say thought that it's supposed to be this clear and distinct kind of idea that 2011 02:52:16.399 --> 02:52:22.159 doesn't depend on anything, that's one of the most ambiguous things in philosophy. 2012 02:52:22.559 --> 02:52:30.639 Philosophy. Second of I'd say third, even if I granted Descartes all this 2013 02:52:30.879 --> 02:52:37.559 stuff, it still doesn't tell me why uh self referencing thought or what philosophers 2014 02:52:37.559 --> 02:52:46.760 and epistemological immediacy is a justification. Even if I granted everything, it's a 2015 02:52:46.920 --> 02:52:54.040 stupid it's a stupid project's totally inconsistent and everything that he does, We're gonna 2016 02:52:54.200 --> 02:52:54.920 we're gonna move on. I'm not trying to be me too. Ordan. 2017 02:52:54.959 --> 02:52:58.479 I just I don't want to get bogged down in the cont thing over and 2018 02:52:58.479 --> 02:53:01.920 and over, Dan, Don Mullerter, Dan Older, what's up? Man? 2019 02:53:07.520 --> 02:53:16.319 Hey, I'm mute, dude, Dan, I'm mute. Do you 2020 02:53:16.360 --> 02:53:24.079 want to chat or not? Why'd your request to speak if you don't want 2021 02:53:24.079 --> 02:53:37.840 to chat? All right? Roscoe? Oh wait, hold on, Ramrod? 2022 02:53:37.879 --> 02:53:41.479 He was from the other chat. So I want Ramrod to come because 2023 02:53:41.479 --> 02:53:46.719 he's he's been waiting for a long time. Roscoe or Ramrod? What's up? 2024 02:53:48.360 --> 02:54:00.399 Okay, I'm mute, y'all gotta I'm mute man. Oh okay about 2025 02:54:00.440 --> 02:54:05.360 that excess the forward country to me? Brother, what's up? Well? 2026 02:54:05.600 --> 02:54:07.000 So, I don't know if you remember, because it's been several hours, 2027 02:54:07.319 --> 02:54:13.159 but I was in the Timothy Gordon h stream and I was the guy that 2028 02:54:13.239 --> 02:54:16.840 said, uh, I remember, you know right right? So the basically, 2029 02:54:16.879 --> 02:54:18.600 you know, just to kind of give you an idea where my head 2030 02:54:18.600 --> 02:54:20.559 spaces that were this question that I'm coming from you is, I went, 2031 02:54:22.040 --> 02:54:24.159 I've been following this stuff for a long time. I converted when I was 2032 02:54:24.200 --> 02:54:31.159 like, uh like fourteen or fifteen of my own volition, uh, and 2033 02:54:31.479 --> 02:54:39.319 I converted to where that was Catholicism, Roman and so essentially you know, 2034 02:54:39.360 --> 02:54:41.719 and it paired with certain things about my uh like, I got really deep 2035 02:54:41.760 --> 02:54:45.200 into the history, really deeper in the theology, you know, the stereotypical 2036 02:54:45.239 --> 02:54:48.559 sort of tread personal formation. And as things went on, you know, 2037 02:54:48.600 --> 02:54:52.879 with the with the Roman Church, I started to see like just you know, 2038 02:54:52.000 --> 02:54:56.600 like I listened to a big part of my ideological sort of formation as 2039 02:54:56.600 --> 02:55:00.000 a historian is that I learned, at some point, as I'm mature, 2040 02:55:00.239 --> 02:55:03.200 to look at both sides of an issue. Yeah, I agree, I 2041 02:55:03.200 --> 02:55:07.680 agree, totally look at both sides. And I had a very personal experience 2042 02:55:07.680 --> 02:55:11.440 with that because I'm a genealogist and it's studying my family history I did. 2043 02:55:11.479 --> 02:55:15.959 I not only learned that certain things I had taken for grammed about my ancestry 2044 02:55:16.719 --> 02:55:18.840 were not only totally wrong, but to give you an idea, for years, 2045 02:55:18.879 --> 02:55:22.280 I was walking around thinking that I was descended from you know, like 2046 02:55:22.799 --> 02:55:26.959 you know, like Irish Catholics and you know, we fell away in America. 2047 02:55:26.000 --> 02:55:31.079 But being the exact opposite is true. I mean, like the earliest 2048 02:55:31.120 --> 02:55:35.719 ancestor in my family could be traced to Cromwell's occupiers of Ireland. So imagine 2049 02:55:35.719 --> 02:55:39.280 me being like a stauch Irish Catholic and learning that I'm not only Anglo Saxon. 2050 02:55:39.399 --> 02:55:41.760 But oh yeah, we did. We did come from Ireland. We 2051 02:55:41.799 --> 02:55:45.079 went there and killed all the papers and took their land, you know. 2052 02:55:45.120 --> 02:55:48.120 So that was kind of the beginning of like as a historian, I had 2053 02:55:48.159 --> 02:55:52.920 to sit there and uh, I had to sit there and sort of think 2054 02:55:54.000 --> 02:55:56.200 as somebody who believed in the power of the democracy of the dead and you 2055 02:55:56.239 --> 02:55:58.360 know, things like that, And I had to think, you know, 2056 02:55:58.440 --> 02:56:03.840 as someone who learned all this history and stuff and democracy of the dead, 2057 02:56:03.879 --> 02:56:07.479 what is that as a term I heard somewhere once in like like Chesterton. 2058 02:56:07.680 --> 02:56:11.360 Basically, it's the idea of like, you know, our ancestors matter, 2059 02:56:11.600 --> 02:56:15.079 like our heritage matters. Essentially. I heard the phrase once and I think 2060 02:56:15.079 --> 02:56:18.680 it came from Chesterton and stuck with me ever since. So just to give 2061 02:56:18.719 --> 02:56:24.399 you like an idea, as I was in harmony with everything that's going on 2062 02:56:24.479 --> 02:56:28.239 with Rome right now, like you know, and then learning this about me, 2063 02:56:28.479 --> 02:56:30.719 I had to sit there and ask myself, as somebody that came to 2064 02:56:30.760 --> 02:56:33.440 admire this supposed golden age of Roman Catholicism, is the one true faith. 2065 02:56:33.479 --> 02:56:37.120 I had to sit there and realize that, you know, as someone again 2066 02:56:37.200 --> 02:56:43.000 looking at both sides of the issue. I listened to everybody from from Loten 2067 02:56:43.159 --> 02:56:46.479 to you to you know where Peter is, to Marshall, to both Gordon 2068 02:56:46.520 --> 02:56:50.959 brothers. I mean, so what I've come to learn as someone who reached 2069 02:56:50.959 --> 02:56:54.000 primary sources is that, you know, let's just assume, for the sake 2070 02:56:54.040 --> 02:56:58.440 of which you know, let's just assume that the Roman Catholic claims are true, 2071 02:56:58.479 --> 02:57:01.600 which I now doubt, let's assume they are. Well, if they 2072 02:57:01.639 --> 02:57:05.440 are true, and if the document and like say like mortality an animous and 2073 02:57:05.680 --> 02:57:09.680 mediatre day by plast the twelve which even the craziest say they still faces the 2074 02:57:09.719 --> 02:57:13.799 valid pope. Right. So basically like we're living like to be a devout 2075 02:57:13.840 --> 02:57:18.600 Catholic still even a tread, you know, is to live in like what 2076 02:57:18.680 --> 02:57:24.639 I've started calling a metaphysical theological paradox. And you know, just as somebody 2077 02:57:24.680 --> 02:57:30.479 that's grembling with a lot of this stuff, you know, uh, it's 2078 02:57:30.600 --> 02:57:35.239 like, you know, I've started to look into my own actual faith tradition 2079 02:57:35.360 --> 02:57:39.360 and you know, examine you know, like the reformers and things like that, 2080 02:57:39.399 --> 02:57:41.719 because I had to ask myself, what did these guys see, you 2081 02:57:41.719 --> 02:57:46.600 know, in like fifteen hundred, sixteen hundred that not only made them turn 2082 02:57:46.639 --> 02:57:50.280 against the religion that had been theirs for at least a thousand years. Yeah, 2083 02:57:50.319 --> 02:57:54.479 I saw, I saw your reformer comment in the chat. I remember 2084 02:57:54.520 --> 02:57:56.959 that. Yeah. Yeah, I just had to ask what did they see 2085 02:57:58.319 --> 02:58:03.239 that made them not only turn against the Roman Church but become the most violent 2086 02:58:03.440 --> 02:58:09.319 exporters of anti papalists, you know, warmongering in the Western world, I 2087 02:58:09.360 --> 02:58:13.040 mean, you know, and it sort of just made me think about our 2088 02:58:13.120 --> 02:58:18.559 own, like like our own the period a lot of Catholics find themselves in. 2089 02:58:18.600 --> 02:58:20.959 And I just feel like, at a certain point, you know, 2090 02:58:20.000 --> 02:58:24.360 you just got to stop doing the mental gymnastic. You got to just stop 2091 02:58:24.399 --> 02:58:26.399 doing the mental gymnastics and realize it doesn't make sense, you know, like 2092 02:58:26.639 --> 02:58:31.040 it just does not make sense anymore. And I guess the main thing that 2093 02:58:31.120 --> 02:58:35.799 I would ask you with your knowledge, you know, is that you know 2094 02:58:37.239 --> 02:58:41.879 of history and everything else, is like, what did the reformers see in 2095 02:58:41.920 --> 02:58:46.399 the Roman Church at that time, especially in places like England that were very 2096 02:58:46.399 --> 02:58:50.280 Catholic at one point? What did they see that made them just not only 2097 02:58:50.319 --> 02:58:56.360 turn against the Roman Church, but I mean hard left into like straight exportation 2098 02:58:56.520 --> 02:59:01.719 of like militants Protestantism, and then not just that, like as a kind 2099 02:59:01.719 --> 02:59:05.639 of a pairing question that it's all over the place. But you know, 2100 02:59:05.760 --> 02:59:13.200 without the infallible quote unquote magisterium, you know, like about that guide when 2101 02:59:13.200 --> 02:59:16.799 we're talking about Christianity here, you know, how do we how does one 2102 02:59:18.399 --> 02:59:20.079 how does one know what to believe? You know, when you when you've 2103 02:59:20.079 --> 02:59:24.360 spent fifteen years in a faith tradition that if you stop and think about it 2104 02:59:24.360 --> 02:59:28.319 really really hard, it feels like it's all just appeal to authority fallacy. 2105 02:59:28.319 --> 02:59:33.040 Because I've been reading, like Malantha, I'm really impressed with how hard it 2106 02:59:33.079 --> 02:59:35.000 is to find the writings of some of the reformers. I'm really impressed. 2107 02:59:35.360 --> 02:59:41.719 I found Calvin and Institute of the Christian Institutes of the Christian Religion. It's 2108 02:59:41.719 --> 02:59:43.559 four volumes. I have free kids that don't have time for that. But 2109 02:59:43.600 --> 02:59:48.520 it's like I've read the whole thing. Actually, yeah, I've got three 2110 02:59:48.600 --> 02:59:50.079 kids, you know, I don't have time for that. I do what 2111 02:59:50.200 --> 02:59:54.159 I can't between all the many hats I wear it. But basically, like 2112 02:59:56.120 --> 02:59:58.920 you know, it's very impressive me just how like grounded sometimes these guys are 2113 03:00:00.319 --> 03:00:05.040 like in like like you know, the Fathers and philosophy and metaphysics. I'm 2114 03:00:05.079 --> 03:00:09.719 very impressed. Hold on, So I had to take issue with I mean, 2115 03:00:09.760 --> 03:00:11.799 I agree with you all the way up until that point, which is 2116 03:00:11.840 --> 03:00:16.559 that how good and grounded they were in philosophy and metaphysics. No, I 2117 03:00:16.559 --> 03:00:20.000 don't think any of the Church, any of the Reformers were very good at 2118 03:00:20.000 --> 03:00:24.639 philosophy metaphysics at all. I mean, if you mean the main reform like 2119 03:00:24.680 --> 03:00:31.239 the Magisterial Reformers, the classic Reformers, now the Scholastic era of Reformers after 2120 03:00:31.360 --> 03:00:35.760 them, they got into some of the more nuanced areas of philosophy and metaphysics. 2121 03:00:35.840 --> 03:00:41.760 But no, Calvin and Luther were not very interested in philosophy and metaphysics 2122 03:00:41.760 --> 03:00:45.760 at all. So that's my first point of disagreement. Second question would be 2123 03:00:46.760 --> 03:00:56.559 why why would you immediately consider Protestantism rather than Orthodoxy. I mean, to 2124 03:00:56.600 --> 03:00:58.360 be frank, you know, it's the same issue. This isn't gonna sound 2125 03:00:58.360 --> 03:01:01.600 really basic. I don't mean to sound condescending if it's really basic, you 2126 03:01:01.639 --> 03:01:05.840 know, like I am a Western man, you know, what I mean, 2127 03:01:05.079 --> 03:01:09.600 not only have I discovered that, I am like, I'm literally like 2128 03:01:09.600 --> 03:01:13.120 like a DNA tist is probably going to show up eighty percent Anglo Saxon. 2129 03:01:13.239 --> 03:01:15.120 So it's like, okay, the hold on, hold on, hold. 2130 03:01:15.280 --> 03:01:18.200 So I don't I hear this argument a lot. I understand it, and 2131 03:01:18.239 --> 03:01:22.079 I hear it a lot from particularly Roman Catholics and people that. Well, 2132 03:01:22.200 --> 03:01:24.159 I said, I don't want to sound me. I don't want to sound 2133 03:01:24.200 --> 03:01:28.200 rude or condescending. It's fine, it feels it's like, you know, 2134 03:01:28.239 --> 03:01:31.879 it feels I don't know, it just feels foreign. And I don't mean 2135 03:01:31.879 --> 03:01:33.440 that a bad way. It just feels foreign. I mean, I you 2136 03:01:33.479 --> 03:01:37.000 know, I just I don't know. Like that's kind of the question is 2137 03:01:37.040 --> 03:01:39.799 like, what did you know? Well, that's another interesting idea. Well, 2138 03:01:39.799 --> 03:01:45.360 you understand that every so first point, understand, every Orthodox church is 2139 03:01:45.879 --> 03:01:52.159 vernacular, right, So why would it you mean, like a Greek church 2140 03:01:52.239 --> 03:01:54.719 is foreign to me because I live in America or something like that. But 2141 03:01:54.760 --> 03:02:03.200 I mean what actually determines like authentic my my heritage, because I mean if 2142 03:02:03.200 --> 03:02:05.440 I go back to my descent, and I'm saying this because you said you 2143 03:02:05.440 --> 03:02:09.360 had an interest in genealogy and you know descent and all that. I mean, 2144 03:02:09.520 --> 03:02:11.120 what if I go back to the point where the West was Orthodox, 2145 03:02:13.680 --> 03:02:18.120 when would you say that point is when it still is. I think that 2146 03:02:18.159 --> 03:02:24.159 the dogmatic point of departure is twelve seventy four, when Lions dogmatically proclaims different 2147 03:02:24.159 --> 03:02:30.159 doctrines from the East. Yeah, I've heard. I've heard certain things before, 2148 03:02:30.200 --> 03:02:33.760 back in like the early days of like when this whole stratosphere blog thing 2149 03:02:33.879 --> 03:02:37.360 was new. I remember like certain guys that were into Orthodox and talking about 2150 03:02:37.399 --> 03:02:41.639 sort of like a like a like a trail of blood thing like sort of 2151 03:02:41.639 --> 03:02:43.920 actually Harold Godwinson was Orthodox, like you know, stuff like that. That's 2152 03:02:43.920 --> 03:02:46.479 not a trailer. It's not anything like the trail of blood. Because we're 2153 03:02:46.520 --> 03:02:52.520 not saying that there was always secret Orthodox in Anglo Saxon England, clearly that 2154 03:02:52.680 --> 03:02:58.000 it eventually departed. It's just talking about what was the normal functioning of the 2155 03:02:58.120 --> 03:03:03.680 church up until you know Norman invasion, up until you know the acceptance of 2156 03:03:03.040 --> 03:03:07.280 more and more elements of papism. I mean, this is why, for 2157 03:03:07.319 --> 03:03:11.760 example, France had the tradition of Gallicanism, because the Gallican view of which 2158 03:03:11.760 --> 03:03:16.879 it persisted all the way up until Vatican one, right, didn't assume papism. 2159 03:03:18.079 --> 03:03:20.040 Now, why would there be Gallicanism there? Why would there be this 2160 03:03:20.159 --> 03:03:26.879 older idea of national churches which existed at the time of ecumenical councils if this 2161 03:03:26.079 --> 03:03:31.319 was all like a papal thing. You see what I'm saying. And to 2162 03:03:31.399 --> 03:03:33.959 your point about the Reformers, one of the reasons why the Reformers went so 2163 03:03:35.000 --> 03:03:41.559 virulently against Rome was that they were not just motivated by theological issues. The 2164 03:03:41.639 --> 03:03:46.719 Reformers also had state power behind the particular the German princes behind Luther, who 2165 03:03:46.719 --> 03:03:50.600 had an issue with the papacy, which had a lot of temporal power. 2166 03:03:52.040 --> 03:03:54.440 So it's I'm not saying you're saying this, but a lot of people think 2167 03:03:54.479 --> 03:03:58.920 of this as just a bunch of theology nerds debating when there's huge elements of 2168 03:04:00.000 --> 03:04:05.959 geopolitical, historical statist power moves being made to try to control the burgeoning Protestant 2169 03:04:07.040 --> 03:04:11.280 movement. So part of the reason Luther went on the crusade that he did 2170 03:04:11.440 --> 03:04:16.159 was because he's motivated by German princes out of the pope right right, And 2171 03:04:16.440 --> 03:04:20.159 you know, as somebody that used to be a Habsburg show like you know, 2172 03:04:20.200 --> 03:04:22.479 you're you're you're talking to Like, I get what you're saying, Like 2173 03:04:22.520 --> 03:04:24.959 the Schmalden League and all of that. There were big political concerns, which 2174 03:04:26.120 --> 03:04:28.000 of course out rules spiritual concerns, but a lot of it. You know, 2175 03:04:28.280 --> 03:04:31.319 it's easy to say, you know, for me at least, it's 2176 03:04:31.360 --> 03:04:35.239 easy to say, all of these guys are just motivated by personal greed, 2177 03:04:35.280 --> 03:04:37.120 but a lot of it, you know, especially with Germany, it comes 2178 03:04:37.159 --> 03:04:39.920 down to the ancestral rights of the various princes, you know, I mean 2179 03:04:39.959 --> 03:04:43.280 it's like, you know, historically a lot of these things with the papacy 2180 03:04:43.280 --> 03:04:46.799 and the emperors was a bridgement of their property rights. You know, in 2181 03:04:46.920 --> 03:04:50.159 terms moderns, we were like the average person would understand, like it's it's 2182 03:04:50.200 --> 03:04:52.719 property rights. You know, they they their land, their authority, they 2183 03:04:52.719 --> 03:04:56.280 have the rights. But yeah, so like let's kind of keep from going 2184 03:04:56.319 --> 03:05:03.000 to often weird directions here, like so like when it comes though to like, 2185 03:05:03.120 --> 03:05:05.879 you know, I think it's it's it's two things, really, uh 2186 03:05:05.040 --> 03:05:09.440 you know, I'm I do. I do agree with you that it's a 2187 03:05:09.520 --> 03:05:13.159 lot of it's politics, but it is also religion. I don't think it's 2188 03:05:13.200 --> 03:05:16.319 like either or for a lot of people, especially the farther down the food 2189 03:05:16.399 --> 03:05:18.639 chain you went. I'm sure it was probably both, you know, Like 2190 03:05:18.760 --> 03:05:22.760 I just I just got to wonder, like because I know all the horror 2191 03:05:22.760 --> 03:05:26.399 stories about the you know, the stripping of the altars in England, the 2192 03:05:26.440 --> 03:05:31.399 Netherlands, Like I'm just trying to imagine it as somebody that's been a devout 2193 03:05:31.479 --> 03:05:35.559 Catholic for years. Like I'm trying to imagine what would motivate people to go 2194 03:05:35.639 --> 03:05:39.920 to their like church where they're every generation crowd has been baptized and just like 2195 03:05:41.040 --> 03:05:43.920 do horrible acts of sacrilegion like that. I mean something, things must have 2196 03:05:43.920 --> 03:05:48.559 gotten really bad. Maybe in the abstract things are pretty bad for like Roman 2197 03:05:48.600 --> 03:05:54.200 Catholics today, but like physically things must have been intolerable for people to get 2198 03:05:54.200 --> 03:05:56.879 that mad. You know. That's my Okay, Well let me put let 2199 03:05:56.920 --> 03:05:58.639 me just put the question this way. Uh, if we were looking for 2200 03:05:58.639 --> 03:06:05.680 the true church, rather than trying to sift between Papism and Protestantism, why 2201 03:06:05.719 --> 03:06:09.520 wouldn't we look to the church that operated in the first thousand years and how 2202 03:06:09.559 --> 03:06:13.200 it went, how it what was its modus operandi. Why wouldn't that solve 2203 03:06:13.280 --> 03:06:18.920 this question. Fair point, sure point, it was a fair point. 2204 03:06:18.959 --> 03:06:22.399 Actually, why didn't a lot of was was was? Was Eastern Orthodoxy just 2205 03:06:22.440 --> 03:06:24.920 off the map to a lot of these people that had gretch with Rome, 2206 03:06:26.079 --> 03:06:28.440 like was were connections to the east? Is not strong enough people to be 2207 03:06:28.440 --> 03:06:31.799 like, maybe we should listen to them. I mean, there there were 2208 03:06:31.840 --> 03:06:35.600 dialogues and letters sent Luther and other They had dialogues with various patriarchs. But 2209 03:06:35.879 --> 03:06:41.319 Luther was committed to Yeah, Luther was committed to the doctrine of sola fide 2210 03:06:41.040 --> 03:06:45.159 and that that would be the pillar upon which his church would be built. 2211 03:06:45.159 --> 03:06:52.520 So he wasn't interested in anything that wasn't interested in sola fide. Huh, 2212 03:06:52.559 --> 03:06:56.399 Okay, that's fair. But yeah, if I wanted to say, like, 2213 03:06:56.479 --> 03:07:01.879 you know, maybe learn more about this Anglos connection with Orthodoxy in Britain, 2214 03:07:03.159 --> 03:07:05.799 Well what if I told you that? I mean, that might be 2215 03:07:05.799 --> 03:07:09.440 an interesting way for you. But it's all wrong headed because I mean, 2216 03:07:09.520 --> 03:07:11.120 to me, it sounds like, and this is the case with what I 2217 03:07:11.159 --> 03:07:15.159 hear from a lot of Roman Catholics, is that it's sort of this sort 2218 03:07:15.200 --> 03:07:16.719 of the irony here. And I'm not accusing you of this, I'm just 2219 03:07:16.760 --> 03:07:20.600 saying that the irony is that a lot of times they're saying they will criticize 2220 03:07:20.719 --> 03:07:24.440 Orthodoxy as being ethnophilitists, And then the Roman Catholics turn around and say, 2221 03:07:24.680 --> 03:07:28.719 but my base trad heritage, my base trad Roman Catholic heritage. Bro. 2222 03:07:30.120 --> 03:07:33.399 And it's like, you can't you can't have it both ways. I mean, 2223 03:07:33.440 --> 03:07:37.200 either it's about ultimately what's true and what's false, and your heritage is 2224 03:07:37.239 --> 03:07:41.680 second to that, or you want to be a Pagan because ultimately your your 2225 03:07:41.680 --> 03:07:46.360 heritage is pagan, is it not? Well, I suppose everybody is exactly. 2226 03:07:48.639 --> 03:07:50.719 I mean the Pagans. The Pagans actually argue this. They actually argue 2227 03:07:50.719 --> 03:07:54.719 that if you really want to be consistent to be a Pagan. Yeah, 2228 03:07:54.760 --> 03:07:56.559 well, I mean, you know the thedn't they run into things like video 2229 03:07:56.600 --> 03:08:01.399 Kid and his interactions with Carlos Magnus. You know. But anyway, Like, 2230 03:08:01.479 --> 03:08:05.840 I have an interesting input on that whole premise of like, I would 2231 03:08:05.920 --> 03:08:09.159 be willing to bet if you nailed a lot of these internet treads to the 2232 03:08:09.239 --> 03:08:11.799 wall, Like, because I'm being honest about myself here, you nailed a 2233 03:08:11.840 --> 03:08:16.840 lot of these internet treads to the wall and made them talk about what got 2234 03:08:16.920 --> 03:08:18.959 them interested in Roman Catholicism in the first place. I'm pretty sure it would 2235 03:08:20.000 --> 03:08:24.319 be something like with my experience where you're growing up in the Bible Belt in 2236 03:08:24.319 --> 03:08:26.719 the Deep South. You're growing up in the Bible Belt, and you're looking 2237 03:08:26.719 --> 03:08:30.520 around at Christianity and you haven't questioned it. You know, you're starting to 2238 03:08:30.559 --> 03:08:33.079 mature, maybe you're getting into like history and the like, and yeah, 2239 03:08:33.920 --> 03:08:37.200 what's going on. Yeah, you start looking around at what's going on around 2240 03:08:37.280 --> 03:08:41.479 you, and you're just like, for me, my thing was the Romans. 2241 03:08:41.479 --> 03:08:43.879 That's how I realized something was wrong because I just looked at what these 2242 03:08:43.879 --> 03:08:48.600 people were doing, and I said, as a Cicero fan, not one 2243 03:08:48.680 --> 03:08:52.040 Roman senator would have been convinced by any of his nonsense, Not a single 2244 03:08:52.239 --> 03:08:54.760 Patrician would have been would have bought any of this insanity like this would have 2245 03:08:54.840 --> 03:08:58.680 not gone over well at all, you know. And then that was kind 2246 03:08:58.719 --> 03:09:01.079 of my departure point, and for me, I went I ended up going 2247 03:09:01.120 --> 03:09:05.879 to like Catholicism, especially trad Catholicism, because I wanted something with some guts, 2248 03:09:07.079 --> 03:09:09.879 you know, something with some meaning and some purpose. And you know 2249 03:09:11.520 --> 03:09:15.200 what happens to all these guys, is we walked into the average Catholic church. 2250 03:09:15.719 --> 03:09:18.600 It's the same kind of people you just walked away from, and you 2251 03:09:18.639 --> 03:09:22.120 know, and then you just cope because you've been convinced of the theology. 2252 03:09:22.159 --> 03:09:26.920 And then lately what's happened the last ten fifteen years I think is people are 2253 03:09:26.959 --> 03:09:30.040 just like that know the theology. It's like, it's not you're just like, 2254 03:09:30.079 --> 03:09:33.360 well, at some point, man, we're just living a theological metaphysical 2255 03:09:33.399 --> 03:09:35.920 paradox. Like I got. I got like irritated at the end of that 2256 03:09:35.959 --> 03:09:39.479 stream because the whole like you know, my Body of Christ and the passion 2257 03:09:39.479 --> 03:09:41.719 thing. I'm like, dude, this is a straight trad cope, man, 2258 03:09:41.760 --> 03:09:45.879 Like I just got done reading a lot of the Western spiritual fathers like 2259 03:09:46.840 --> 03:09:50.319 Demockford and Capital of CM and all that. I just got done going through 2260 03:09:50.319 --> 03:09:52.760 that, and nothing like this like shows up in any of their stuff. 2261 03:09:52.760 --> 03:09:56.959 And this is a straight trad cope based off the Fatama vision. So like, 2262 03:09:56.040 --> 03:10:01.000 this is a straight cope like and it's just to me, as somebody 2263 03:10:01.040 --> 03:10:03.639 looking at my going, I had to bring it back to this. But 2264 03:10:03.719 --> 03:10:05.799 going back to my heritage, you know, whenever things didn't make sense, 2265 03:10:07.440 --> 03:10:09.760 you know, to my people. You couldn't, you know, like these 2266 03:10:09.760 --> 03:10:13.879 were not the kind of people, the kind of nation that you could throw 2267 03:10:13.920 --> 03:10:16.799 a bucket of water on and tell them it was raining, you know what 2268 03:10:16.879 --> 03:10:20.879 I mean. Like they looked and they said, something's not adding up here. 2269 03:10:20.920 --> 03:10:22.799 Maybe they didn't come to the right conclusions when they realized something wasn't adding 2270 03:10:22.879 --> 03:10:26.799 up, but they realized, hey, something's not right here. Okay, 2271 03:10:26.879 --> 03:10:30.000 So well, if that's the case, then maybe the people who were raising 2272 03:10:30.040 --> 03:10:33.239 that question of something's not right a thousand years ago, maybe they were right. 2273 03:10:33.520 --> 03:10:35.719 I mean, because they were saying this, you know, five six 2274 03:10:35.799 --> 03:10:41.959 centuries before the reformers. Yeah, that's just a horror. That's just a 2275 03:10:41.000 --> 03:10:45.760 horrifying thought, though, isn't it not at all? What I mean is, 2276 03:10:46.159 --> 03:10:48.799 well it is, But what I mean is it's a horrifying thought to 2277 03:10:48.879 --> 03:10:54.200 think of. It's a horrifying thought to me to think of like all of 2278 03:10:54.239 --> 03:10:58.639 the people, you know, we're talking spiritual matters here. It's a horrifying 2279 03:10:58.639 --> 03:11:03.239 matter. Think of all the people in the West who were you know, 2280 03:11:03.360 --> 03:11:09.440 like lost because they but they genuinely believed, you know, that it was 2281 03:11:09.479 --> 03:11:11.079 the true faith, because it was all they were exposed to it's it's a 2282 03:11:11.079 --> 03:11:15.719 horrifying thought really to me. On like it's like the vision. I forget 2283 03:11:15.719 --> 03:11:18.040 which mystic it was. It's one of the counter Reformation, uh nuns. 2284 03:11:18.079 --> 03:11:22.760 And she said that the well anyway, one of the mystics said that the 2285 03:11:22.040 --> 03:11:24.760 damn fall like snowflakes in the hell, and it's like it's it's kind of 2286 03:11:24.760 --> 03:11:31.159 like a it's kind of a very sort of daunting thing. But yeah, 2287 03:11:31.280 --> 03:11:35.079 I think that's Uh. I would just say, like, you know, 2288 03:11:35.159 --> 03:11:39.799 check out Orthodoxy, man. I think I think you're gonna be pleasantly surprised 2289 03:11:39.840 --> 03:11:41.200 that if you go to an Orthodox church. I don't just mean check it 2290 03:11:41.200 --> 03:11:45.520 out intellectually, I mean go visit and check it out and see for yourself. 2291 03:11:45.840 --> 03:11:48.799 That would mean my record right right right, I may will, I 2292 03:11:48.840 --> 03:11:52.000 may will indeed do that. I have considered it before. I have really 2293 03:11:52.000 --> 03:11:56.760 considered it before. But I live in a place where it's it's it's definitely 2294 03:11:56.760 --> 03:12:01.719 not big here. In fact, I think the oldest communities here traced themselves 2295 03:12:01.760 --> 03:12:03.799 to immigrants who came from the Cold War, like, so they it's not 2296 03:12:03.959 --> 03:12:11.760 very big here at all. But uh, it's it's worth checking out, 2297 03:12:11.000 --> 03:12:16.879 you know. Uh yeah, it's definitely worth checking out. Well, I 2298 03:12:16.920 --> 03:12:22.520 mean your objection seemed to be that there wouldn't be a magisterium, and and 2299 03:12:22.559 --> 03:12:26.079 then but you're the same tempted with Protestantism, and I'm and I mean prostism 2300 03:12:26.159 --> 03:12:31.719 has less of a claim to any kind of magisterium than what you're saying is 2301 03:12:31.760 --> 03:12:35.760 a problem with orthodoxy. Oh yeah, like don't like, don't like, 2302 03:12:35.799 --> 03:12:37.559 don't even get me started, Like you know, I was recently, uh 2303 03:12:37.959 --> 03:12:41.879 you know, so the it's like, you know, like I was raised 2304 03:12:41.879 --> 03:12:46.319 for dominantly, I was baptized the Methodist Church, and recently I looked into 2305 03:12:46.440 --> 03:12:50.040 like I have access to a large library near me that was once a seminary 2306 03:12:50.079 --> 03:12:54.280 for a very large Baptist nomination, so they have a huge resource of actually 2307 03:12:54.319 --> 03:12:58.360 a theology and philosophy, huge and I was very I was very stunned, 2308 03:12:58.559 --> 03:13:01.559 like you know, just kind of like, you know, to use what 2309 03:13:01.719 --> 03:13:05.799 as the kids say these days, just how base. John Wesley was like, 2310 03:13:05.879 --> 03:13:07.559 I mean, you know, it's a you know, and to see 2311 03:13:07.559 --> 03:13:11.079 with that today, like yeah, there's no continuity there, Like I would 2312 03:13:11.079 --> 03:13:13.879 definitely not be walking into any Protestant church anytime soon. I mean, it's 2313 03:13:15.000 --> 03:13:18.559 it's not something I am at all interested in it. And so let's get 2314 03:13:18.559 --> 03:13:22.920 back to that registerium question. So when you lose something like that, you 2315 03:13:22.920 --> 03:13:26.799 know, when you lose you know, something like that. And on the 2316 03:13:26.799 --> 03:13:28.520 topic of losing things, I think again, if you were to put a 2317 03:13:28.559 --> 03:13:33.120 gun to a lot of these treads heads, you know, and and they're 2318 03:13:33.120 --> 03:13:35.600 they're coming, they're not They're not there for Christ, They're there for the 2319 03:13:35.639 --> 03:13:41.520 cultural warp, and then they realize not only is this eschewed by the mainstream 2320 03:13:41.600 --> 03:13:46.479 institutional church today, they're actively trying to fight against I mean, I'm not 2321 03:13:46.520 --> 03:13:50.680 sure how much more like against it. You can get to the point where 2322 03:13:50.680 --> 03:13:58.920 they have very silently started to like declare saints and martyrs people that were executed 2323 03:13:58.959 --> 03:14:01.719 as criminals by the Spanish Imperial government in the New World. And it's like, 2324 03:14:01.799 --> 03:14:05.440 aren't these the same people that like got the divide right, okay from 2325 03:14:05.440 --> 03:14:09.120 you to like govern this place. Like, I mean, it's it's just, 2326 03:14:09.200 --> 03:14:13.760 you know, it's getting to the point where it's it's just un it's 2327 03:14:13.920 --> 03:14:16.520 it's an unrecognizable thing. And yet people stay, no, it's a it's 2328 03:14:16.559 --> 03:14:22.040 a giant woke institution. Yeah, it's it's it's it's it's beyond depressing, 2329 03:14:22.159 --> 03:14:26.799 you know, and i's beyond the pressent. But on the magisterial thing, 2330 03:14:26.840 --> 03:14:28.559 you know, I'm sure this is again a basic, you know, like 2331 03:14:28.840 --> 03:14:33.760 orthodox question when you when you when you start losing that sort of institution where 2332 03:14:33.799 --> 03:14:37.040 we can say for certain like, hey, this is the guy we listened 2333 03:14:37.079 --> 03:14:39.040 to, this is the this is the holder of the faith of the apostles. 2334 03:14:39.360 --> 03:14:43.879 You know, when you lose that, when you lose that, who 2335 03:14:43.920 --> 03:14:48.520 do you who who's the uh, who's the go to guy? I mean, 2336 03:14:48.559 --> 03:14:52.719 I know, like the I know it's not necessarily just a patriarch, 2337 03:14:52.840 --> 03:14:56.639 but like who's the go to here is just the councils. So let's uh 2338 03:14:56.079 --> 03:15:01.840 reorient our thinking maybe and consider how do you how do you let's say it's 2339 03:15:01.840 --> 03:15:07.959 the year three hundred and you know, we're an average Christian. How do 2340 03:15:07.000 --> 03:15:13.159 we know what's the true teaching of the church in the year three hundred. 2341 03:15:13.239 --> 03:15:15.520 Yeah, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna say I don't know. And I 2342 03:15:15.559 --> 03:15:18.920 just have to say without you know, talking trash about you know, the 2343 03:15:18.280 --> 03:15:22.360 last time this question was brought up here. As a historian, I'm like, 2344 03:15:22.360 --> 03:15:26.200 I'm like, I could just see the guy flail Man. I was 2345 03:15:26.280 --> 03:15:31.840 like, as a historian that knows about the era, like, how I 2346 03:15:31.079 --> 03:15:35.719 do wonder how you would know? How would you know? Well, I 2347 03:15:35.760 --> 03:15:39.159 mean, are we all just supposed to go ask the pope what the true 2348 03:15:39.159 --> 03:15:43.079 faith is? Like? That's like, that's like that's a conceivable thing. 2349 03:15:43.120 --> 03:15:48.000 It's not conceivable, right, I mean throughout the Roman Empire. Christianity has 2350 03:15:48.000 --> 03:15:52.799 already spread throughout the Roman Empire, their churches all over the place. How 2351 03:15:52.799 --> 03:15:56.000 are we gonna It's the year three hundred. We got all kinds of debates 2352 03:15:56.040 --> 03:15:58.559 going on the church. We got uh, we got Arians, we got 2353 03:15:58.799 --> 03:16:03.920 some re bellions, we got Montanus, we got uh, you know, 2354 03:16:03.479 --> 03:16:07.840 gnostics, we got you know, Aeronas lists hundreds of sex by the year 2355 03:16:07.879 --> 03:16:13.159 one eighty. So we're out here, we're sifting through scrolls. How are 2356 03:16:13.159 --> 03:16:16.719 we going to find out where the church is? We don't have an ecumenical 2357 03:16:16.760 --> 03:16:22.280 council yet. Now guess what, there's things that already exist that are already 2358 03:16:22.319 --> 03:16:26.639 taking place, which are the normal governance of the church. How do you 2359 03:16:26.719 --> 03:16:31.879 what do you think that might be pass true? But how do the bishops 2360 03:16:31.879 --> 03:16:39.360 govern the church? You got me there in three hundred couldn't tell you. 2361 03:16:39.239 --> 03:16:45.639 I couldn't tell you honestly, I'll be honest. Synods. Okay, I 2362 03:16:45.639 --> 03:16:48.319 thought that was too easy, would answered, I'm sorry. So the normal 2363 03:16:48.520 --> 03:16:54.319 functioning of the church from Acts fifteen all the way until three twenty five is 2364 03:16:54.360 --> 03:17:00.879 synods, no ecumenical council. We don't have a consistent from the Pope to 2365 03:17:00.879 --> 03:17:05.120 every church every five years to know what to believe. So was the Holy 2366 03:17:05.200 --> 03:17:11.159 Spirit enough at that time to guide synons without direct letters from the pope, 2367 03:17:11.200 --> 03:17:16.040 direct access to the Pope, and without an echemenical council. Well, if 2368 03:17:16.040 --> 03:17:18.639 one believe in the Holy Spirit, one would have to say yes. Right. 2369 03:17:18.719 --> 03:17:24.399 So, And like I asked the dude earlier about Constantinople one, we 2370 03:17:24.440 --> 03:17:28.600 have an entire econmenical council that is called without the Pope, convened without the 2371 03:17:28.639 --> 03:17:31.479 pope, closes without the Pope, presided over by a saint who dies out 2372 03:17:31.479 --> 03:17:37.159 of commune with the Pope, and the Pope retroactively accepts that council, which 2373 03:17:37.159 --> 03:17:43.200 teaches the Trinity a few centuries later. So does this does this look like 2374 03:17:43.840 --> 03:17:50.760 a Vatican one style modus operanda? It definitely does not, Right, Jilly. 2375 03:17:50.799 --> 03:17:52.440 I don't know if you know about this, but when I was studying 2376 03:17:52.520 --> 03:17:56.600 the English sort of like response to these things I discovered and I confirmed it 2377 03:17:56.639 --> 03:18:03.319 later going to the same library and looking through thing in the catechism for the 2378 03:18:03.360 --> 03:18:05.760 English Catholic Church. I forget what the Plannary Council is or whatever over there. 2379 03:18:05.799 --> 03:18:09.319 For the Catholics have been Britain, but in like the eighteen thirties and 2380 03:18:09.360 --> 03:18:13.239 forties that you got to think this is important because it's still illegal to be 2381 03:18:13.280 --> 03:18:15.959 a Catholic in Britain at this point, Like you can't join the military or 2382 03:18:15.959 --> 03:18:18.440 anything at this point and be a Catholic. Like it's it's not it's not 2383 03:18:18.559 --> 03:18:24.520 fun. Like. So here's what's interesting. In a catechism section for the 2384 03:18:24.600 --> 03:18:28.840 same catechism was put out by the church in England, Okay, there was 2385 03:18:28.879 --> 03:18:31.280 a question, you know, they were all question and answer formats. So 2386 03:18:31.719 --> 03:18:35.440 the question was is the Pope infallible? And it literally the catechism says no, 2387 03:18:35.559 --> 03:18:39.600 this is a spurious process. I'm aware. Yeah, isn't that crazy 2388 03:18:39.680 --> 03:18:43.239 that, like you just they just like they just strained, well, I 2389 03:18:43.239 --> 03:18:46.360 mean then one decade later they change it. Yeah, I mean, but 2390 03:18:46.799 --> 03:18:50.319 Dollinger was. Dolinger was aware of all that, and that's why a Vatican 2391 03:18:50.399 --> 03:18:56.360 won. He was still reluctant to sign on to Vatican One until they basically 2392 03:18:56.360 --> 03:19:01.399 told Dollinger either except on fame without understanding it, or you're out of the 2393 03:19:01.479 --> 03:19:05.399 church. And so he went ahead and signed even though he knew that a 2394 03:19:05.399 --> 03:19:09.399 lot of this was a bunch of malooney. Yeah, and that's just to 2395 03:19:09.440 --> 03:19:11.959 me again, learning more about my ancestry, just thinking about the kind of 2396 03:19:13.000 --> 03:19:15.639 person I am, that's just abhorrent, you know, that is that is 2397 03:19:15.639 --> 03:19:18.760 an abhorrent question to make of a sensible man, is to just suspend your 2398 03:19:18.760 --> 03:19:22.879 reason and suspend your knowledge and just be like, oh, hey, this 2399 03:19:22.920 --> 03:19:26.440 thing that obviously does not make any sense whatsoever, just accepted well to me, 2400 03:19:26.559 --> 03:19:31.360 Yeah, to me and my comments on this, And I'm not accusing 2401 03:19:31.399 --> 03:19:35.200 you of anything, but my assessment is that most of the time, what 2402 03:19:35.280 --> 03:19:37.200 happens in the Roman Catholic world is that there's a kind of a just a 2403 03:19:37.280 --> 03:19:43.440 defaulting to worshiping authority. The idea is that the guy in Rome will solve 2404 03:19:43.520 --> 03:19:46.559 the questions. Believe in the authority. Your church doesn't have the authority. 2405 03:19:46.600 --> 03:19:50.079 We've got all these So it's this worship of authority. And I just don't 2406 03:19:50.079 --> 03:19:54.559 believe that Christ established a church where there would be this one guy that we 2407 03:19:54.680 --> 03:20:00.399 worship his authority, because that's the only reason I can see for everybody's judgment 2408 03:20:00.520 --> 03:20:03.600 being so clouded on these issues and act just acting out the way they act 2409 03:20:03.639 --> 03:20:07.680 out. It's big, it's it's it's very true. And it goes again 2410 03:20:07.719 --> 03:20:11.479 back to the larp, and it goes again back to like I have to 2411 03:20:11.520 --> 03:20:13.280 bring up again Philip Malaight And I don't know what your feon is or if 2412 03:20:13.319 --> 03:20:16.639 I'm saying his name right, but ma life. And he points out that 2413 03:20:18.040 --> 03:20:20.040 I got a online copy of the Book of Conquered and I was looking through 2414 03:20:20.079 --> 03:20:24.239 his arguments on the papers, because I've read Bellerman's arguments on the papec I've 2415 03:20:24.239 --> 03:20:26.680 read his whole book on the controversies, I've read I've read Spiritual Authority, 2416 03:20:26.719 --> 03:20:30.920 and I've read the positive. So it's interesting to me to say, Okay, 2417 03:20:31.000 --> 03:20:35.559 what do you got? So he says straight from scripture in towards the 2418 03:20:35.639 --> 03:20:39.280 end of the Book of John, straight up where the apostles are asking like 2419 03:20:41.000 --> 03:20:43.200 who is who is to be first over us? All, and he pretty 2420 03:20:43.239 --> 03:20:46.840 much gets the famous thing about like let he who would be first be last, 2421 03:20:46.879 --> 03:20:48.840 you know, he who would lead, let him serve, you know. 2422 03:20:50.239 --> 03:20:52.840 So that was that that was to me was even though it's a Protestant 2423 03:20:52.920 --> 03:20:54.920 argue, he gets like, you know, papal authority. That's something I 2424 03:20:54.920 --> 03:20:58.479 feel like with maybe a resident with the Orthodox, the idea of like there 2425 03:20:58.520 --> 03:21:01.680 is no one apostle the bishop and has supreme authority. I mean in the 2426 03:21:01.760 --> 03:21:05.639 question of like the ECU medical debates. If he's right, he's right. 2427 03:21:05.760 --> 03:21:09.959 If he's wrong, he's wrong. You know. Just because he's got the 2428 03:21:09.959 --> 03:21:13.719 fancy head doesn't mean he's the one that knows everything, you know. It's 2429 03:21:13.799 --> 03:21:18.319 just that's that was my like that that's been my like takeaway for the last 2430 03:21:18.360 --> 03:21:20.319 couple of days, you know. And again to answer your question about the 2431 03:21:20.360 --> 03:21:24.360 authority thing, I have some pretty some pretty deep insight into this because I've 2432 03:21:24.360 --> 03:21:28.760 been a fly on the wall for fifteen years in this kind of internet sphere 2433 03:21:28.799 --> 03:21:33.879 and I've like seen certain things and been in discords. I mean, I 2434 03:21:33.959 --> 03:21:37.079 come from the era of Skype and vent Trillo. That's how old I am, 2435 03:21:37.239 --> 03:21:39.680 and and like for me, I can a lot of these guys, 2436 03:21:39.799 --> 03:21:45.079 they just have this crazy, insane idea of most of them, like and 2437 03:21:45.159 --> 03:21:48.479 I was one of them engaged in this sort of nonsense because of my falacious 2438 03:21:48.520 --> 03:21:54.239 understandings of my own ancestry that like, somehow by shilling for the authority, 2439 03:21:54.479 --> 03:22:01.200 they're going to grant them some form of power or share it's when in reality, 2440 03:22:01.440 --> 03:22:03.360 like, it's just an institution that's trying to protect itself. I had 2441 03:22:03.399 --> 03:22:07.959 a friend that asked me recently, He said, why would all these religions, 2442 03:22:09.000 --> 03:22:11.319 why would they change their doctrine and talk about like this, Like wouldn't 2443 03:22:11.360 --> 03:22:15.399 that just cause you know, like, what's the point. And I just 2444 03:22:15.440 --> 03:22:18.280 looked at him and I said, It's it's an institution, man. The 2445 03:22:18.319 --> 03:22:22.000 institution protects itself. It's the story of every human government in history is Yeah, 2446 03:22:22.000 --> 03:22:24.920 the Roman Gallic church is an institutional self worship entity. That's the point 2447 03:22:24.920 --> 03:22:28.520 here. Yeah. The government entity is created to solve a problem. The 2448 03:22:28.559 --> 03:22:33.319 government entity manages the problem, and then as it manages the problem, it 2449 03:22:33.360 --> 03:22:37.120 begins to become outdated. And so then once it becomes outdated, it starts 2450 03:22:37.120 --> 03:22:39.040 to try to protect itself. And then once it's in the pursuit of doing 2451 03:22:39.079 --> 03:22:43.040 that it stops fulfilling the purpose for which it was created, and then people 2452 03:22:43.040 --> 03:22:46.920 get rid of it, you know. I think that's what I think that's 2453 03:22:46.120 --> 03:22:50.920 with the trad thing in the Western world, and and and that's I think 2454 03:22:50.920 --> 03:22:56.200 that's the next step for a lot of trad is what the next step for 2455 03:22:56.239 --> 03:22:58.120 them is. They're going to formally pretty much most of them pretty much have 2456 03:22:58.200 --> 03:23:01.200 and all that weren't I think with the tradcats, at least for the people 2457 03:23:01.200 --> 03:23:05.399 that I knew, I think a lot of them are going to either retreat 2458 03:23:05.479 --> 03:23:07.239 into a shell because they're not going to know how to cope, or they're 2459 03:23:07.239 --> 03:23:11.719 going to silently accept it. But I think the third option is much more 2460 03:23:11.799 --> 03:23:16.159 likely if somebody who's charismatic enough just stands up and does it. The next 2461 03:23:16.239 --> 03:23:18.000 move for a lot of these guys, a lot of them, for very 2462 03:23:18.040 --> 03:23:22.920 shallow reasons, will not consider orthodoxy. For very shallow reasons, they will 2463 03:23:22.920 --> 03:23:24.760 not consider it, which I'm going to do. Actually, well, I 2464 03:23:24.799 --> 03:23:31.879 think I think that my experience is that a lot of guys are considering it. 2465 03:23:31.959 --> 03:23:35.680 A lot of people are not considering it based on shallow things. But 2466 03:23:35.719 --> 03:23:37.760 the problem is that I know this from experience going through a lot of the 2467 03:23:37.799 --> 03:23:41.200 same stuff, right, because I used to be a tradcat and I would 2468 03:23:41.239 --> 03:23:48.040 try to utilize the kind of like all the different copes. But then the 2469 03:23:48.040 --> 03:23:50.879 problem, the problem with the low level copes is that it's still churning in 2470 03:23:50.920 --> 03:23:54.559 the back of your mind, is still bugging you, and those don't those 2471 03:23:54.559 --> 03:24:00.440 don't ultimately satisfy you. And so my guess is that a lot of people 2472 03:24:00.440 --> 03:24:03.680 are going to follow the track that I took. And what I did was 2473 03:24:03.760 --> 03:24:07.159 I became a romancaloc in two thousand and two two thousand and three. By 2474 03:24:07.159 --> 03:24:09.959 the end of two thousand and three, I was already convinced of tried stuff. 2475 03:24:09.000 --> 03:24:13.920 I was already going to the Latin mass exclusively, and so I had 2476 03:24:13.959 --> 03:24:16.840 a period of recognize and resist. And I think a lot of people are 2477 03:24:16.879 --> 03:24:20.200 going to do the exact same sort of bell curve that I did. You're 2478 03:24:20.200 --> 03:24:22.680 going to go through the all right, well, I still accept him as 2479 03:24:22.680 --> 03:24:24.879 a pope, but he's a liberal, and then you're gonna move to no, 2480 03:24:26.040 --> 03:24:28.680 actually he's teaching objective heresy, but he's still a pope, and I 2481 03:24:28.680 --> 03:24:33.079 don't have an answer, and then you're gonna move to Okay, he can't 2482 03:24:33.120 --> 03:24:35.559 be the pope because he's not right. Heretics denying Vatican One, you're going 2483 03:24:35.600 --> 03:24:39.520 to be some kind of like sspx slash stta position. Then you're going to 2484 03:24:39.559 --> 03:24:43.440 move into like a pup puckalypticism over in the end times. There's no answer 2485 03:24:43.440 --> 03:24:46.799 to this. The only answer is that we got to be in the end 2486 03:24:46.799 --> 03:24:50.600 of the world that won't ultimately, you know, stave off the doubts and 2487 03:24:50.600 --> 03:24:54.719 whatnot, and then you eventually it's just going to move into all right, 2488 03:24:54.719 --> 03:24:56.920 I got to look elsewhere, and that's what happened to me, Like I 2489 03:24:56.959 --> 03:25:00.120 got to a certain point where I went through all of these different copes and 2490 03:25:00.159 --> 03:25:03.760 different explanations, and then I got to the point where I was no longer 2491 03:25:03.840 --> 03:25:09.319 afraid of doubting it. And that happens because in Rome Catholicism, you're very 2492 03:25:09.360 --> 03:25:11.000 concerned about, well, if I doubt it, then I'm gonna go to 2493 03:25:11.040 --> 03:25:13.959 Hell. I'm damned. I don't want to be damned, you know. 2494 03:25:13.079 --> 03:25:18.280 So there's this really entrenched fear. And then but at a certain point you 2495 03:25:18.360 --> 03:25:22.319 realize, why does why am I Why would God put me in a position 2496 03:25:22.360 --> 03:25:28.319 where I'm com completely fearful of people acting like complete clowns. So in other 2497 03:25:28.360 --> 03:25:33.760 words, I'm supposed to accept complete clowns in Rome as authoritative and I'm gonna 2498 03:25:33.760 --> 03:25:37.000 be damned because I'm, you know, no longer believing in clown masses and 2499 03:25:37.000 --> 03:25:39.280 this ridiculous stuff. And then at a certain point you just break free and 2500 03:25:39.280 --> 03:25:43.719 you're like, I'm not I'm not afraid anymore, right, like some some 2501 03:25:43.000 --> 03:25:48.799 dumb movie line. Right. But but yeah, that's that's my take on 2502 03:25:48.879 --> 03:25:52.959 the the Trek. People will go down the track that I went down. 2503 03:25:52.000 --> 03:25:54.520 Now. I'm not trying to be rude, but we're gonna move on. 2504 03:25:54.639 --> 03:25:58.239 I appreciate your comments. Those are really good comments there, and feel free 2505 03:25:58.280 --> 03:26:01.879 anytime we have this discussion, Ramra to call back in Jordan Snyder. What's 2506 03:26:01.920 --> 03:26:13.520 up? Jordan Snyder? I am embracing my nineties guy with the puka shell 2507 03:26:13.639 --> 03:26:15.879 necklace. So people were like, why'd you get that? Because I'm in 2508 03:26:15.920 --> 03:26:18.879 Florida and I feel like a nineties dude. What's up, dude, I'm 2509 03:26:18.959 --> 03:26:24.760 mute and I'm just owning it. Yeah, I'm operating as nineties man. 2510 03:26:26.440 --> 03:26:31.639 I own it. Yes, sir, you unmuted? What's up? Now? 2511 03:26:31.680 --> 03:26:33.799 You left? Why would you unmute? And then leave. Dude. 2512 03:26:33.840 --> 03:26:37.680 Temple hat girl, what's up, Tempole hat girl, she's a former trad 2513 03:26:37.760 --> 03:26:48.360 cat. I'm mute. We'll go to Ferry Magdalen. One dollar. Why 2514 03:26:48.360 --> 03:26:50.719 don't you finish my angel number? Super chat. It was a little odd, 2515 03:26:52.000 --> 03:26:54.600 no offense to you. It was just a weird super chat. Crypto 2516 03:26:54.639 --> 03:26:58.360 current Stein twenty dollars. Thank you so much, Crypto curren Stein. Appreciate 2517 03:26:58.399 --> 03:27:01.879 that, dude, seriously, three dollars. Talk to Pockets of the future, 2518 03:27:01.959 --> 03:27:05.159 Paul. You would rip him a new one, but be kind. 2519 03:27:05.639 --> 03:27:07.319 Yeah. I think he has a kind of a new age meditation view. 2520 03:27:07.440 --> 03:27:11.959 I have seen his videos over the years. I don't know if he would 2521 03:27:11.959 --> 03:27:16.760 want to chat with me, but I'm always open to chatting with all kinds 2522 03:27:16.799 --> 03:27:20.079 of different positions. It doesn't matter to me. Orthodox Crow at ten dollars, 2523 03:27:20.120 --> 03:27:24.600 Can you explain to me how Ryan Gosling was the Grand Mofti of Jerusalem? 2524 03:27:24.040 --> 03:27:31.000 Exactly? This British intelligence created post where the Brits were playing both sides 2525 03:27:31.000 --> 03:27:35.879 of this issue with tiny mustache man, and everybody was laughing because when I 2526 03:27:35.879 --> 03:27:41.200 looked him up, I was like, wait a minute, that's freaking Ryan 2527 03:27:41.239 --> 03:27:48.079 Gosling was a British spy double dealing with the Brits and the yeah, I 2528 03:27:48.079 --> 03:27:54.479 mean, legit, Brian Gosling, tell me it's not. That's the the 2529 03:27:54.520 --> 03:27:58.440 grand moved to Jerusalem British intelligence agent. Literally, we need some of the 2530 03:27:58.479 --> 03:28:03.079 weirdo you agers to like to say that this proves reincarnation, right, because 2531 03:28:05.319 --> 03:28:07.600 I mean he's really looking like some Gosling right there. I mean that's some 2532 03:28:07.799 --> 03:28:13.559 Really, that's some. That's like eighty eighty to five percent Gosling right there. 2533 03:28:15.479 --> 03:28:18.600 Oh my Gosling. What's up, Temple haggirl, I'm mute? Where 2534 03:28:18.639 --> 03:28:24.479 you at? I yes, ma'am. I just wanted to kind of touch 2535 03:28:24.559 --> 03:28:28.719 back on what the previous gentleman was saying. When you grow up in the 2536 03:28:28.760 --> 03:28:33.760 system with Roman Catholicism, like having grown up with that, it really is 2537 03:28:33.920 --> 03:28:37.399 very difficult system to get out of. First of all, like there's there's 2538 03:28:37.399 --> 03:28:41.280 a there's a family connection because like my mom my mom has like the Irish 2539 03:28:41.319 --> 03:28:46.159 groups, my dad has the Polish roots that were very right. And then 2540 03:28:46.520 --> 03:28:48.479 you have like I went through twelve years of Catholic school. So if you 2541 03:28:48.559 --> 03:28:52.479 speak out against that in any way, rape or formed, like you are 2542 03:28:52.520 --> 03:28:56.920 going to help particularly because my parents they still are extremely devout Roman Catholics. 2543 03:28:58.200 --> 03:29:00.680 Now, I mean there's there's some run flags that are definitely going on, 2544 03:29:00.760 --> 03:29:03.920 but I mean growing up going through school, Like for example, I had 2545 03:29:03.040 --> 03:29:07.159 lesbian women teaching me when I was in grade school. I had the FBI 2546 03:29:07.280 --> 03:29:11.799 come in store my high school to pull out the priest that was teaching me 2547 03:29:13.520 --> 03:29:18.200 because he got picked picked up for a child pornography we had sorry we're on 2548 03:29:18.239 --> 03:29:24.799 YouTube, so sorry sorry. So I had several So I had several instances 2549 03:29:24.920 --> 03:29:28.120 where these types of situations were coming. So it's like it's like, okay, 2550 03:29:28.200 --> 03:29:33.639 so I'm supposed to believe that this guy here in Rome is like telling 2551 03:29:33.719 --> 03:29:35.360 us that all this stuff is okay and he's allowing us to go on. 2552 03:29:35.879 --> 03:29:41.200 But yet like this is what I'm seeing and then yeah, it's like it's 2553 03:29:41.399 --> 03:29:43.440 it's just like this this crazy thing and then you try to speak out against 2554 03:29:43.520 --> 03:29:48.000 it, and I just I just think that like it's become so someone to 2555 03:29:48.040 --> 03:29:54.200 a part of the Western philosophy. And also like the like the Majestic in 2556 03:29:54.239 --> 03:29:58.079 the Magic, like if you go on to like any of the dragcat Any 2557 03:29:58.079 --> 03:30:03.280 trip pages like Obsession with Fatima and these miracles and Garbadal and I know I 2558 03:30:03.360 --> 03:30:07.360 was, I was in the track out world and then I finally realized that, 2559 03:30:07.719 --> 03:30:09.719 you know, this Fatima stuff is just ridiculous over the top, like 2560 03:30:11.680 --> 03:30:15.479 it's the retreat when when the school, the dogma and the scholasticism and the 2561 03:30:15.600 --> 03:30:18.920 rationality fails, the retreat is into that that's the next move that you go 2562 03:30:20.000 --> 03:30:22.920 to. It's just extreme nsticism. And I talked to my mom about that, 2563 03:30:22.959 --> 03:30:26.719 and I'm like, your view of Mary is ridiculous, Like that's that's 2564 03:30:26.760 --> 03:30:31.799 craziness, Like it's completely wrong. You you put her up there like past 2565 03:30:31.920 --> 03:30:35.360 Christ. They put her up about Christ in a lot of a lot of 2566 03:30:35.479 --> 03:30:39.000 instances, and I think that was a response to the Protestant and like the 2567 03:30:39.040 --> 03:30:46.200 Protestant. Yeah, even even EMJ says that the medieval Christ as judge image 2568 03:30:46.239 --> 03:30:54.040 got uh too heavy and then the reaction was to swing over to marry the 2569 03:30:54.120 --> 03:30:58.040 merciful mother. And so that there's this like and that he em J. 2570 03:30:58.200 --> 03:31:03.159 I think he says he thinks that influence it's like Ireland to be feminist or 2571 03:31:03.200 --> 03:31:05.040 to be prepped for feminism. So even he admits a lot of which is 2572 03:31:05.079 --> 03:31:09.639 odd to me. But he admits a lot of this stuff too. It's 2573 03:31:09.680 --> 03:31:13.280 just so crazy. And then like they're the reasoning that like the rosary is 2574 03:31:13.319 --> 03:31:16.399 going to pull them out of anything that the Pope does, so anytime the 2575 03:31:16.399 --> 03:31:20.639 Pope does something, they need to pray harder on the rotary. It's just 2576 03:31:20.680 --> 03:31:22.799 it's crazy because like I saw, like right after all that stuff came out 2577 03:31:24.639 --> 03:31:28.920 with the Pope and all of his stuff about Skittles things, they were they 2578 03:31:28.959 --> 03:31:33.319 were just like doubling down on we need to have more provincials. We need 2579 03:31:33.360 --> 03:31:35.559 to have more, we need we need to consult. Yeah, it's your 2580 03:31:35.559 --> 03:31:39.040 fault. It's actually your fault because you didn't do enough rosaries. So, 2581 03:31:39.719 --> 03:31:43.200 by the way, so uh, this came out a few days ago, 2582 03:31:43.399 --> 03:31:48.159 and I want everybody to be aware of this because it it really kind of 2583 03:31:48.159 --> 03:31:54.200 hammers the point home. The New Jerome Bible Commentary came out and it's got 2584 03:31:54.200 --> 03:31:58.680 all these kind of super lib weirdos as the editors. But Francis pins the 2585 03:31:58.719 --> 03:32:03.600 four to it and gives it nil obstat which means free from error. So 2586 03:32:03.680 --> 03:32:09.799 even though this might not be quote magisterium, it's Francis pushing and giving his 2587 03:32:11.799 --> 03:32:18.040 approval. Remember this is in the situation of Honorius. This is going beyond 2588 03:32:18.040 --> 03:32:22.000 what Honorius did. Honorius wrote a letter that affirms monothelitism and he ends up 2589 03:32:22.000 --> 03:32:28.079 condemned for that. This is Francis going about twelve light years beyond that with 2590 03:32:28.440 --> 03:32:33.799 approving this Jerome Bible commentary as they call it, which is again just a 2591 03:32:33.799 --> 03:32:39.680 bunch of like skittle stuff literally saying that the Bible is like not against the 2592 03:32:39.719 --> 03:32:48.239 skittles, and could you believe it the guys like other Paul actually made it 2593 03:32:48.280 --> 03:32:52.120 into this article with James White, right, so the Protestants are jumping on 2594 03:32:52.200 --> 03:33:00.239 this right as if this is like look at this guy, yikes, whose 2595 03:33:00.280 --> 03:33:05.040 days the KGB. That's all the other say it's the KGB. It's crazy, 2596 03:33:05.079 --> 03:33:09.079 Like they don't realize there's there's no there is no KGB quit existing thirty 2597 03:33:09.120 --> 03:33:11.319 years ago. I know that, but they just they always say, like 2598 03:33:11.360 --> 03:33:15.079 even here some clayers say that, like it's the KGB. It's like, 2599 03:33:15.639 --> 03:33:20.280 no, it's not. Stop spiritually deceiving people. That's ridiculous. It's craziness. 2600 03:33:20.479 --> 03:33:24.000 And people actually believe it, like they believe it, like they read 2601 03:33:24.040 --> 03:33:28.760 these like Saint Carola mofy Ma exist. But they read these books and you'll 2602 03:33:28.760 --> 03:33:31.520 hear from like like my mom's friends in the Churchill, yeah, it's the 2603 03:33:31.600 --> 03:33:35.239 KGB that's doing Is this the reason that thinks that Francis is doing all things 2604 03:33:35.239 --> 03:33:37.399 that he's doing. And I'm just like, I just like, okay, 2605 03:33:37.440 --> 03:33:41.239 but I mean, the KGB is not supposed to be the KGB is not 2606 03:33:41.280 --> 03:33:45.159 supposed to be able to thwart Rome by a Vatican I mean Vatican one, 2607 03:33:45.239 --> 03:33:48.520 right, Vatican one doesn't give any place for like like the KGB clause right, 2608 03:33:48.639 --> 03:33:52.719 like all this applies to Rome unless there was the KGB subverting Rome, 2609 03:33:52.799 --> 03:33:58.319 which again there's no KGB. So if we wanted to say, what it's 2610 03:33:58.399 --> 03:34:01.399 Russian intelligence, I mean, do you think that Putin and Russian intelligence are 2611 03:34:01.440 --> 03:34:07.040 supporting the stuff that do Francis is openly supporting it. I mean, is 2612 03:34:07.079 --> 03:34:09.559 Francis and the KGB what are you talking about? It's like, if you're 2613 03:34:09.600 --> 03:34:13.600 if the if the objectives of the w are the same as your church, 2614 03:34:13.680 --> 03:34:20.040 then I think you need to look for another correct like like the And I 2615 03:34:20.079 --> 03:34:22.440 think if my parents are starting to wake up to it, and I think 2616 03:34:22.520 --> 03:34:26.159 some people are, they're either just just completely dropping out of the church. 2617 03:34:26.559 --> 03:34:28.760 You know, it'd be nice that they came over to Orthodoxy, but I 2618 03:34:28.760 --> 03:34:31.559 think there's a lot of people that are just recognizing that. Particularly my siblings, 2619 03:34:31.559 --> 03:34:35.120 they're just kind of like agnostic right now where they don't really want to, 2620 03:34:35.239 --> 03:34:39.639 like they're not eager to jump into something because they've grown up into this 2621 03:34:39.760 --> 03:34:43.399 like ridiculous system where they're just kind of like nodding their head, just like 2622 03:34:43.559 --> 03:34:46.479 backing away slowly because they see it. James White looks like a like a 2623 03:34:46.760 --> 03:34:52.079 like a like a dull eyed version of John Malkovich right there. I feel 2624 03:34:52.120 --> 03:34:56.079 like, I feel like Cyrus the virus is going to start talking right there, 2625 03:34:56.120 --> 03:35:01.879 Cyrus the virus. Uh, if you're remember con Air, doesn't he 2626 03:35:01.959 --> 03:35:05.239 looked like John Malcolvich and con error there and that if you see the pictures. 2627 03:35:05.239 --> 03:35:09.559 But the Bible says, quoting the Jerome Bible commentary approved by Francis, 2628 03:35:09.600 --> 03:35:16.040 the Bible does not talk about same skittles as it does today, so the 2629 03:35:16.079 --> 03:35:20.799 modern concept was not known at that time. Totally not true. The forward 2630 03:35:20.959 --> 03:35:24.760 as Francis granting a noil opstat in an impor moder, which, according to 2631 03:35:24.799 --> 03:35:31.079 the imprint, declares it is free from doctrinal error. James White condemned the 2632 03:35:31.079 --> 03:35:33.000 book in his YouTube video. This has nothing to do with exegesis. It 2633 03:35:33.079 --> 03:35:39.440 is woke propaganda. Mocking the magistarian for endorsing this commentary. In his video, 2634 03:35:39.840 --> 03:35:43.879 James White asked if there was a consistency in Francis supporting this. Now 2635 03:35:43.879 --> 03:35:48.680 we know we already covered what Francis said about his responses to the Dubia and 2636 03:35:48.760 --> 03:35:54.479 his responses to the Dubia, Francis said that skittles unions are not exactly the 2637 03:35:54.479 --> 03:35:58.520 same tier as heterosexual unions, but they're analogous and in some cases they can 2638 03:35:58.600 --> 03:36:03.159 be black. And so again this is all out in the open, and 2639 03:36:03.399 --> 03:36:05.639 it's time to you know, it's time to just be honest about this. 2640 03:36:05.760 --> 03:36:09.319 I appreciate Tim because he's being honest about it. Tim admits that that it 2641 03:36:09.399 --> 03:36:15.079 was entered into the the changes are entered into the ACTA apostolical say that not 2642 03:36:15.120 --> 03:36:18.520 the changes about skittles, but the change is about divorce and remarried communion. 2643 03:36:18.799 --> 03:36:22.559 It's also, i would argue, it's also changed in terms of death penalty. 2644 03:36:24.120 --> 03:36:28.840 Uh. And then this article here correctly admits that all this is connected 2645 03:36:28.840 --> 03:36:31.280 to the push for the female female dac in it, which is a preparation 2646 03:36:31.360 --> 03:36:35.280 for female priests, which is a preparation for feminizing the entire entity. So 2647 03:36:35.319 --> 03:36:39.440 that's the ultimate goal of all this, which is which is absolutely correct. 2648 03:36:41.239 --> 03:36:46.799 I'm not a huge fan of church militant, but this article is correct anyway. 2649 03:36:48.120 --> 03:36:52.840 So anything else what you want to say, timfole No, I just 2650 03:36:52.840 --> 03:36:58.079 think the ultimate goal is set will probably be the female well. And remember 2651 03:36:58.120 --> 03:37:01.440 that's what Fourham one to push on the Orthodox as well, So Fordham is 2652 03:37:01.520 --> 03:37:05.879 kind of in the background pushing this for the Roman Catholics and for the Orthodox 2653 03:37:05.920 --> 03:37:09.440 Temple Hacker, what would you say to Roman Catholics that are because you're a 2654 03:37:09.440 --> 03:37:13.479 former trad cat and what would you say to them hearing you say this, 2655 03:37:16.440 --> 03:37:18.479 I don't just to go with your gut. I mean, if you feel 2656 03:37:18.479 --> 03:37:22.760 like something is really wrong and you feel like like like when you when you 2657 03:37:22.799 --> 03:37:30.399 see these like just complete like just contradictions and everything, just go with your 2658 03:37:30.440 --> 03:37:33.680 gut, like, don't allow yourself to be spiritually deceived, because there's a 2659 03:37:33.680 --> 03:37:35.799 lot of spiritual like it's spirit like as you were saying, Jay, it's 2660 03:37:35.799 --> 03:37:39.959 spiritually damaging and spiritual used to be in the Catholic church, it's spiritual, 2661 03:37:41.159 --> 03:37:45.280 just like just deception. Go someplace that I can provide you some healing. 2662 03:37:45.799 --> 03:37:50.360 And when I went to Orthodox, that's what I got was healing. Appreciate 2663 03:37:50.440 --> 03:37:58.840 that, good question or good comments. There a bunch of more people hopped 2664 03:37:58.920 --> 03:38:01.360 up in here. I don't know if I got enough energy for all these. 2665 03:38:01.520 --> 03:38:03.959 We got a bunch of people in here, maybe one or two more 2666 03:38:05.040 --> 03:38:09.319 crazy Protestant. What's up? That sounds like this is gonna be rough? 2667 03:38:09.520 --> 03:38:18.559 Crazy Protestant? What's good? Man? Are you crazy? Yeah? Okay, 2668 03:38:18.239 --> 03:38:24.840 what's your comment? So I have some questions for you, okay about 2669 03:38:26.520 --> 03:38:33.760 Orthodox ecclesiology. Yeah, I want to know what makes the church the church? 2670 03:38:33.360 --> 03:38:35.719 Like we all have to preach the same thing, or we have to 2671 03:38:35.719 --> 03:38:46.840 agree in everything about doctrine. But let's say it's caaedological views or the antime's 2672 03:38:46.879 --> 03:38:50.520 all of that, Well, I would say, yeah, I mean, 2673 03:38:50.559 --> 03:38:54.799 there is a basic outline of what you can and can't believe, right, 2674 03:38:54.879 --> 03:38:58.280 So there is areas where people can disagree. But for example on the end 2675 03:38:58.319 --> 03:39:03.280 times, like you can't believe in premillennialism because that's excluded by constantinople one. 2676 03:39:05.280 --> 03:39:09.360 Oh okay, okay, okay, But that's my question because I see the 2677 03:39:09.399 --> 03:39:15.520 early Church and I don't see them as say, united grouping doctrines in the 2678 03:39:15.600 --> 03:39:18.399 end times. Well hold on on, Paul says, one Lord, one 2679 03:39:18.440 --> 03:39:22.879 faith, one baptism, so they are united on one faily. But just 2680 03:39:22.920 --> 03:39:26.319 a martyr said, you know, there's people that don't believe in this, 2681 03:39:26.719 --> 03:39:31.000 which I think it was pre millennialist. He said, these people are orthodoxis 2682 03:39:31.040 --> 03:39:33.280 still yeah, we don't believe in the same thing. But hold on. 2683 03:39:33.399 --> 03:39:37.200 So that this came up earlier, and that's this. This relates to what 2684 03:39:37.239 --> 03:39:43.000 I was saying about, like when there's periods of debate, certain views might 2685 03:39:43.040 --> 03:39:48.399 be tolerated until there's a council that says, okay, we can't do that. 2686 03:39:48.479 --> 03:39:52.000 This is the right position, that's the wrong position. So councils help 2687 03:39:52.159 --> 03:39:58.319 decide between those debated issues. Yeah, I'm aware there was sentence around three 2688 03:39:58.399 --> 03:40:01.399 hundred years, but there was NOI communical council, you know that let's say, 2689 03:40:01.559 --> 03:40:05.520 oh, yeah, we all believe in this thing and nobody can't say 2690 03:40:05.680 --> 03:40:09.479 anything else. Well, no, some of the did so. Like no, 2691 03:40:09.639 --> 03:40:13.159 some of the pre nice Seene synods do say that, like the synods 2692 03:40:13.159 --> 03:40:18.840 of Carthage and the synod of either Ankira or Gangra. They do they say 2693 03:40:18.840 --> 03:40:24.399 what you can and can't believe. I mean, I think I read the 2694 03:40:24.719 --> 03:40:28.600 Senator of Carthage and about their canon of a Scripture, and that's the other 2695 03:40:28.680 --> 03:40:33.799 church. Hold on, there's a bunch of canons of synods of Carthage. 2696 03:40:33.840 --> 03:40:41.639 So what I'm saying is if you look up, I always get a Gangra 2697 03:40:41.719 --> 03:40:50.200 and then Kira mixed up. But so one of the first councils is yeah, 2698 03:40:50.239 --> 03:40:52.559 I think I heard you. So this is prior to okay, so 2699 03:40:52.600 --> 03:40:58.399 hold on. So here's so here's hold on. So here's Carthage in two 2700 03:40:58.399 --> 03:41:01.719 fifty seven under Cyprian, and it has canons about what you can and can't 2701 03:41:01.719 --> 03:41:09.440 believe. Right, So that that council is talking about baptism and it teaches 2702 03:41:09.479 --> 03:41:13.799 baptismal regeneration. By the way, here is the Council of Ankira in three 2703 03:41:15.000 --> 03:41:18.440 fourteen, which is a local synod, and it talks about the Eucharist. 2704 03:41:18.559 --> 03:41:24.559 It talks about deacons and bishops, it talks about heretics, It talks about 2705 03:41:24.559 --> 03:41:28.559 all kinds of stuff you can and can't believe. So what do you mean 2706 03:41:28.360 --> 03:41:31.360 what you said? You said that these early councils don't talk about what you 2707 03:41:31.399 --> 03:41:37.399 can and can't believe. That isn't I mean when I said about when I 2708 03:41:37.399 --> 03:41:41.920 said about the councils was that every single church had a different opinion on things. 2709 03:41:43.479 --> 03:41:48.200 But by eximple this, I think there's this church called they didn't They 2710 03:41:48.200 --> 03:41:50.520 didn't have differences on everything. They might have differed on some things, sure, 2711 03:41:52.600 --> 03:41:54.399 yeah, but that but that wouldn't mean that there's no common faith. 2712 03:41:56.280 --> 03:42:00.440 I mean, it didn't seem like they had a common faith though, even 2713 03:42:00.559 --> 03:42:05.280 I think Origin said hold on, so that's not true. I mean when 2714 03:42:05.280 --> 03:42:09.120 they when there was already early creeds and confessions before Nicio. So what do 2715 03:42:09.159 --> 03:42:13.719 you mean they didn't have a common faith? You say confessions like, yeah, 2716 03:42:16.399 --> 03:42:20.360 so they all uh, let's say for example, they can let me 2717 03:42:20.360 --> 03:42:26.639 give an example. They confessed belief in things like baptismal regeneration. They confessed 2718 03:42:26.680 --> 03:42:31.360 belief in things like the Eucharists. They confessed belief in the deity of Christ, 2719 03:42:31.559 --> 03:42:37.360 the Apostolic succession. That's always there. Yeah, but I'm saying I'm 2720 03:42:37.399 --> 03:42:41.200 not saying they didn't agree on the basic things. I'm saying they didn't agree. 2721 03:42:41.319 --> 03:42:43.280 Like I told you, like it's choological views. Like I told you 2722 03:42:43.319 --> 03:42:48.920 pre millennials, and yeah, I think church, but they were hold on 2723 03:42:48.959 --> 03:42:54.520 they were and so they allowed differences until the synods settled issue. That's what 2724 03:42:54.559 --> 03:43:00.920 I'm saying. Mm hmm. But you said, I mean if we all 2725 03:43:00.959 --> 03:43:07.000 don't preach the same thing, who we That's what the Arthook Church says. 2726 03:43:07.120 --> 03:43:09.120 But we are the unchanged church. We never changed, We've always been the 2727 03:43:09.120 --> 03:43:13.879 same. And like I said, like i've seen church fathers preaching different things. 2728 03:43:13.239 --> 03:43:18.040 Yeah, but that's not what That doesn't mean that everybody in every era 2729 03:43:18.200 --> 03:43:22.719 had every single point the same. The point is that there is there are 2730 03:43:22.799 --> 03:43:24.520 basics, and there are things that are not basics, and you can have 2731 03:43:24.559 --> 03:43:30.440 disagreements on things that are not basics. I mean, I think pre like 2732 03:43:30.840 --> 03:43:35.239 chiological views are pretty basic because some can lead into heresy and that's true. 2733 03:43:35.280 --> 03:43:39.639 You know, well that's what you think. But I mean, if it's 2734 03:43:39.680 --> 03:43:46.639 not determined until the first Council Constantinople in three eighty one, so like you 2735 03:43:46.680 --> 03:43:50.959 think there shouldn't be like, there shouldn't be we shouldn't cut some slack. 2736 03:43:52.000 --> 03:43:54.600 I mean, in my opinion is like Protestants, so we don't even got 2737 03:43:54.600 --> 03:44:00.479 consoles though, you know what I mean. So it's like that a problem 2738 03:44:00.479 --> 03:44:03.319 to you, not to me. No, it's not. It's not a 2739 03:44:03.360 --> 03:44:09.120 problem for me because you're you're importing to what I believe, a position I 2740 03:44:09.120 --> 03:44:11.200 don't hold. So when I say that there's one Lord, one faith, 2741 03:44:11.239 --> 03:44:16.159 one baptism, that doesn't mean one faith in every single bit of minutia. 2742 03:44:16.319 --> 03:44:20.799 There's going to be debates and divisions and schisms in the history of the Church. 2743 03:44:20.559 --> 03:44:26.639 So and by the way, you're very argument about eschatology, not that 2744 03:44:26.719 --> 03:44:31.639 it is a fundamental issue that would undercut your own position because Protestants are completely 2745 03:44:31.680 --> 03:44:37.600 divided on eschatology. Yeah, I mean that's what that's my point. So 2746 03:44:37.639 --> 03:44:43.200 there's not one. So there's not So there's not a consistent faith. Mean 2747 03:44:43.360 --> 03:44:46.799 for me, it is because I mean for you, we're talking about what's 2748 03:44:46.840 --> 03:44:48.719 what's the case, and we're not worried about what's subjective, which what for 2749 03:44:48.879 --> 03:44:54.319 from for history. I mean for me, I don't have the same position 2750 03:44:54.360 --> 03:44:56.840 as let's say we all got to push the same thing in the end times, 2751 03:44:56.440 --> 03:45:00.760 because what I've seen in the other church is that different thinks. Even 2752 03:45:00.799 --> 03:45:07.399 Apostolic fathers who actually the traditioned. Yeah, but I never said so. 2753 03:45:07.559 --> 03:45:11.239 Your argument is your argument is based on the idea that the church fathers are 2754 03:45:11.239 --> 03:45:16.959 infallible in an error and I don't believe that. Oh well that's not my 2755 03:45:16.040 --> 03:45:24.959 position either. So where is the inconsistency. The inconsistency is that you said, 2756 03:45:26.079 --> 03:45:31.840 like your decision, do you having different opinions on doctrines makes a church 2757 03:45:31.920 --> 03:45:37.479 fallse And it's no, It depends on what It depends on what the doctrine 2758 03:45:37.559 --> 03:45:41.920 is. So there there are there are things that are fundamental, like, 2759 03:45:41.959 --> 03:45:46.120 for example, the Nicing Creed, those are fundamentals. Right, So if 2760 03:45:46.120 --> 03:45:50.840 you disagree with something in the Nicing Creed, right, but when the when 2761 03:45:50.920 --> 03:45:54.559 I see it happened, they didn't. That didn't have the added statement of 2762 03:45:54.559 --> 03:46:00.000 constantinople about eschatology, right, do you understand what I'm saying or not? 2763 03:46:00.200 --> 03:46:03.840 So? Content to Number one is the Second Council. It adds the phrase 2764 03:46:03.159 --> 03:46:09.040 whose kingdom will have no end? That phrase was added to exclude pre millennialism. 2765 03:46:09.319 --> 03:46:13.639 So what I'm saying is that you can have people who thought pre millennialism 2766 03:46:13.760 --> 03:46:16.520 was an opinion in the church that you could have until constant and noble one 2767 03:46:16.559 --> 03:46:22.440 when it excludes it. That's different from saying something like there is no return 2768 03:46:22.479 --> 03:46:26.920 of Christ. Right, that's an obvious heresy. Yeah, yeah, all 2769 03:46:28.000 --> 03:46:30.719 right, that's all the Christians I had. Yeah, those are good questions. 2770 03:46:30.879 --> 03:46:48.159 Fair enough, the desperate void. What's up dude. By the way, 2771 03:46:48.239 --> 03:46:50.639 if you want to support us, you can do so via super chess 2772 03:46:50.680 --> 03:46:54.440 through the stream labs function. You stream labs to do superchess justice, Buyork 2773 03:46:54.799 --> 03:47:01.920 ten dollars. Justice Byork. Interesting, was not literally a curse. He 2774 03:47:01.040 --> 03:47:05.520 was counted as such. How is this different than the nominalism move that Luther 2775 03:47:05.639 --> 03:47:09.840 makes regarding justification? My question makes sense. Yes, I do understand your 2776 03:47:09.879 --> 03:47:16.600 question. It is a good question. So Luther's nominalist move is not saying 2777 03:47:16.719 --> 03:47:22.719 that Christ wasn't cursed. So two different uses of the words there, right, 2778 03:47:24.000 --> 03:47:26.600 our position is not nominalist. Okay, So let's be clear about what 2779 03:47:26.639 --> 03:47:35.360 nominalism. Nominalism is a late Medieval Medieval to late medieval movement from Gabriel William 2780 03:47:35.399 --> 03:47:41.760 of Oakham and Gabriel Bile. Gabriel Bile influences Luther to be able to divorce 2781 03:47:41.440 --> 03:47:48.159 the ontological reality of a term or a status or a thing from the word, 2782 03:47:48.520 --> 03:47:52.680 So Luther says, I can call people just when they are in fact 2783 03:47:52.719 --> 03:47:56.760 wicked, because God calls people just when they are in fact wicked. The 2784 03:47:56.799 --> 03:48:01.440 ancient and medieval world did not separate the term from the reality, so they 2785 03:48:01.440 --> 03:48:07.079 were not nominalists. They were realist or moderate realists. Right realism be more 2786 03:48:07.079 --> 03:48:11.600 platonic, Modern realism be more what I would argue as our position. And 2787 03:48:11.680 --> 03:48:16.879 so for example, Christ assuming universal human nature, that requires some kind of 2788 03:48:16.879 --> 03:48:20.920 moderate realism. You can't be a nominalist and believe in correct Christology because Christ 2789 03:48:20.920 --> 03:48:26.280 assumed universal human nature, so you need universals. Nominalism is based on the 2790 03:48:26.319 --> 03:48:31.680 idea there are no real universals. So in the case of Luther, Luther's 2791 03:48:31.760 --> 03:48:37.639 move this nominalist is to say that God can divorce his naming of things or 2792 03:48:37.760 --> 03:48:43.159 calling things just from their actual status and why because of nominalism. And it's 2793 03:48:43.200 --> 03:48:48.799 more than just nominalism. Luther also believes in a kind of occasionalism where God 2794 03:48:48.959 --> 03:48:52.360 literally can just will it to be. So, so when he's asked about 2795 03:48:52.399 --> 03:48:56.120 the omnipresence of Christ's humanity, Luther says, God just wills it to be 2796 03:48:56.239 --> 03:49:01.399 that way. How is it possible that it's bred and wine and body of 2797 03:49:01.479 --> 03:49:03.760 Christ. God just wills it to be so, So there's a kind of 2798 03:49:05.079 --> 03:49:11.559 theological voluntarism that goes along with the nominalism in Luther. The Orthodox view in 2799 03:49:11.680 --> 03:49:18.920 saying that Christ is a curse by appropriation, is not an affirmation of nominalism. 2800 03:49:18.200 --> 03:49:24.719 It's just affirming the way that we understand the linguistic use. And because 2801 03:49:24.799 --> 03:49:31.399 we don't believe that curses can be ontologically real, that's not a question of 2802 03:49:31.479 --> 03:49:35.959 nominalism. That's a question of Manicheanism. Evil, sin, curse, they 2803 03:49:37.000 --> 03:49:41.479 don't have ontological existence. Okay, it's not a thing doesn't have being. 2804 03:49:41.600 --> 03:49:46.680 Sin and evil don't have being. Sin and evil are privations and the move 2805 03:49:46.719 --> 03:49:48.440 of the will away from the good. That's all that a sin is in 2806 03:49:48.479 --> 03:49:56.760 the Church Fathers, and that's always to avoid Manicheanism, because God said when 2807 03:49:56.760 --> 03:50:00.399 he created the world, it is good. So nothing that has being can 2808 03:50:00.479 --> 03:50:05.760 be good be evil. Even Satan in his nature is still good because God 2809 03:50:05.799 --> 03:50:11.319 created his nature. He's bent and conformed his will to evil, but even 2810 03:50:11.319 --> 03:50:13.719 his will itself is still good, but he always uses it for evil. 2811 03:50:16.559 --> 03:50:22.520 So any position that wants to argue that evil takes on onto logical reality or 2812 03:50:22.559 --> 03:50:28.079 curse or whatever is making a Manichean move, and by the way, Luther 2813 03:50:28.120 --> 03:50:33.079 actually makes that move. So that's how Luther's position is not the same thing 2814 03:50:33.280 --> 03:50:39.600 as John Damascus saying Christ is a curse by appropriation. Dan Mullder three dollars. 2815 03:50:39.760 --> 03:50:41.479 Here's a question, have you. I haven't been able to talk to 2816 03:50:41.639 --> 03:50:46.440 Father James Bernstein. I have his book and he's sent me a few messages. 2817 03:50:48.079 --> 03:50:52.159 But he is ethnically Jewish and he works to make Orthodox people become Orthodox. 2818 03:50:52.239 --> 03:50:56.399 Yes, I'm aware, how should they approach customs that they grew up 2819 03:50:56.440 --> 03:51:01.840 with, like Shabbat and Holy days family? That's a question for him. 2820 03:51:03.319 --> 03:51:07.399 I don't know. It's a question for your spiritual father like, and that's 2821 03:51:07.479 --> 03:51:11.280 true not just for this issue with Jews, but with anybody. I don't 2822 03:51:11.319 --> 03:51:15.239 tell people like what they should do with their family relations. It's not appropriate 2823 03:51:15.239 --> 03:51:20.639 for me. I'm not an Orthodox spiritual advisor. I view myself as a 2824 03:51:20.680 --> 03:51:26.239 philosopher. I talk about the issues in terms of academics, philosophy, argumentation. 2825 03:51:26.879 --> 03:51:31.040 I don't typically give spiritual advice. So that would be a question you 2826 03:51:31.079 --> 03:51:33.680 would take to whoever will be your spiritual father, because a lot of that 2827 03:51:33.760 --> 03:51:41.479 stuff requires wisdom and nuanced navigating where that person's at. You know, are 2828 03:51:41.520 --> 03:51:45.079 they a cademic human? Have they converted? You know? Are they serious 2829 03:51:45.120 --> 03:51:48.520 about it? You know, it's a complex question that I don't give advice 2830 03:51:48.600 --> 03:51:52.239 to people about, but thank you for that. Vendova, young liege one 2831 03:51:52.280 --> 03:51:56.920 dollar. Do you have a date for blotting out Tim Gordon? I don't 2832 03:51:56.920 --> 03:51:58.000 know what you mean. Why would I blot out Tim Gordon? I like, 2833 03:51:58.040 --> 03:52:03.559 Tim Gordon? Have you gotten any progress of PbD. I've sent two 2834 03:52:03.639 --> 03:52:09.479 emails and I asked Sammy to kind of put my name in there, but 2835 03:52:09.040 --> 03:52:13.799 I haven't heard anything back from any of the PbD people, so I don't. 2836 03:52:13.239 --> 03:52:16.680 I don't hold out. I'm not holding my breath for any of that. 2837 03:52:16.799 --> 03:52:18.680 I mean, if if they would ask me to be on, I 2838 03:52:18.760 --> 03:52:22.799 would, but I don't know. Tell Jamie that dogs, all dogs go 2839 03:52:22.840 --> 03:52:24.360 to Hell. I already tell her that to mess with her, right, 2840 03:52:24.399 --> 03:52:26.319 because she thinks all dogs go to heaven. I'm like, no, they 2841 03:52:26.360 --> 03:52:31.840 all go to Hell, dude, And she's like no, So you I 2842 03:52:31.920 --> 03:52:46.600 beat you to that one. Abraham of Aksum, I'm you all right? 2843 03:52:46.879 --> 03:53:01.040 He can't connect Uh, brothers SID, who was in the chat. Since 2844 03:53:01.079 --> 03:53:03.280 you came all the way over here, I'll bring you on. Since you 2845 03:53:03.319 --> 03:53:11.319 were chatting up a fuss today in the chat? What's up Sid? Brother 2846 03:53:11.360 --> 03:53:24.799 Sid's sister Moon Sid can't connect? All that chatting? And you get over 2847 03:53:24.799 --> 03:53:28.559 here and you can't connect all that chatting? What did it do? It 2848 03:53:28.719 --> 03:53:33.680 exposed your dial up connection? You can't you can't connect where you at? 2849 03:53:33.680 --> 03:53:43.120 Said you were talking smack all night with your evangelical thing and now you can't 2850 03:53:43.120 --> 03:53:58.280 connect, big gun. What's up? Yep? Yes, sir? Good? 2851 03:54:01.920 --> 03:54:07.840 Uh, yeah, yeah, just ask some questions about orthodox Okay, 2852 03:54:07.079 --> 03:54:13.879 are you what's wrong with your mic? Dude? What's wrong with your mic? 2853 03:54:13.920 --> 03:54:18.319 Man? What kind of phone are you on? Uh? Pretty crappy 2854 03:54:18.319 --> 03:54:26.879 one? Are you on a Zach Morris level? All right, I'm sorry. 2855 03:54:26.040 --> 03:54:30.920 We can't do this. I can't. This is just that's that's like 2856 03:54:30.959 --> 03:54:35.159 the worst quality phone I've ever heard of. That's Zach Morris level. Calling 2857 03:54:35.200 --> 03:54:43.719 in from nineteen ninety three, Riley Marsinka's what's up? Hello, Yes, 2858 03:54:43.760 --> 03:54:48.840 sir, I got a couple of questions for you. I'm a Protestant that 2859 03:54:50.040 --> 03:54:56.120 is interested in Orthodoxy. I had a question about the monarchy of the father 2860 03:54:56.239 --> 03:55:01.719 throughout the five theological oorations. So I know that he's or I know that 2861 03:55:01.760 --> 03:55:05.079 the son is equal in the sun hemisphere, equal in essence of nature. 2862 03:55:07.040 --> 03:55:11.120 But as far as Jesus or the son submitting to the Father, is that 2863 03:55:11.200 --> 03:55:15.719 something that he just does in his human nature or is that also a part 2864 03:55:15.760 --> 03:55:22.520 of his divine nature? Well as the divine person of the son generated from 2865 03:55:22.559 --> 03:55:28.040 the Father, he does everything the father wills. So I guess you could 2866 03:55:28.079 --> 03:55:31.719 you could say there's a kind of a submitting there because he is the son 2867 03:55:31.840 --> 03:55:35.959 of the Father. But it's also the case that everything that the father has 2868 03:55:37.000 --> 03:55:41.680 he gives to the son, so that any notion of submission is not any 2869 03:55:41.760 --> 03:55:46.920 kind of ontological diminution, got it. I mean, he does say in 2870 03:55:46.959 --> 03:55:50.959 the Garden, as the person of the son, that he wants to do 2871 03:55:52.000 --> 03:55:56.719 the father's will. And if you read Maximus on that section let this cup 2872 03:55:56.760 --> 03:56:00.719 pass for me, that actually becomes the locus of the debate between him and 2873 03:56:00.799 --> 03:56:07.520 Peris, and Maximus says that the son delivers up the human will in submission 2874 03:56:07.600 --> 03:56:13.319 to the father. So it is appropriate to the human will, but also 2875 03:56:13.399 --> 03:56:18.040 the son, because he shares the same will as the Father. Always does 2876 03:56:18.079 --> 03:56:22.840 what the Father wills, and he's sent by the Father. So in that 2877 03:56:22.920 --> 03:56:26.319 sense, you could says, he submits to the Father. Gotcha, Okay, 2878 03:56:26.360 --> 03:56:33.120 that makes sense. So I listened to a little bit of the Mass 2879 03:56:33.760 --> 03:56:37.719 and the Father and an iced debate, and something that was said was that 2880 03:56:37.799 --> 03:56:43.760 the Bible isn't the only word of God. So I guess I'm curious about 2881 03:56:43.600 --> 03:56:48.520 what else is considered infaul Like the councils would be considered infallible, right, 2882 03:56:50.799 --> 03:56:54.680 Well, the councils, yeah, would be dogmatically infallible, but I wouldn't 2883 03:56:56.200 --> 03:56:58.239 equate that to the Word of God per se, because the Word of God 2884 03:56:58.280 --> 03:57:03.719 would be the totaltality of the divine revelation that the Apostles handed down. So 2885 03:57:03.760 --> 03:57:07.959 that would be everything that the Apostles taught, whether written or oral, and 2886 03:57:09.040 --> 03:57:13.319 so that's a definitive body of teaching that doesn't change, doesn't evolve. It's 2887 03:57:13.959 --> 03:57:18.760 the faith once for all committed to the Apostles, like Jude says, right, 2888 03:57:18.879 --> 03:57:22.799 contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints. So there's 2889 03:57:22.879 --> 03:57:28.399 not new divine revelations from God that when John died, that's done there's no 2890 03:57:28.440 --> 03:57:35.319 more public revelation, but the church can accurately and correctly express and comment and 2891 03:57:35.559 --> 03:57:41.479 state what that apostolic deposit is, and that's what the councils do. Okay, 2892 03:57:41.840 --> 03:57:46.600 So yes, I mean like obviously the Catholics sale of the pope is 2893 03:57:46.000 --> 03:57:50.159 has all the nfaibl like scathedral stuff, so right, but even they admit 2894 03:57:50.280 --> 03:57:54.760 that it's not new divine revelation. I mean, you could argue that they 2895 03:57:54.879 --> 03:57:58.920 violate that, but in principle they believe what I just said. Okay, 2896 03:58:00.079 --> 03:58:03.079 are synods kind of like where where do they line up on that? What 2897 03:58:03.200 --> 03:58:07.159 they also be considered available or no? Well, I mean it depends because 2898 03:58:07.959 --> 03:58:13.239 there's no and this is true for everybody. There's no like one size fits 2899 03:58:13.239 --> 03:58:20.399 all recognition principle for what constitutes an ecumenical council. And that's why it's kind 2900 03:58:20.399 --> 03:58:22.000 of on a it's kind of on a scale or a spectrum, because the 2901 03:58:22.040 --> 03:58:28.639 Palamite Synods were received eventually by the whole Orthodox Church, and so you could 2902 03:58:28.680 --> 03:58:31.120 say that they have that same status. So in other words, a pan 2903 03:58:31.239 --> 03:58:37.239 Orthodox synod or a Palamite synod, which is not an quote ecumenical council it's 2904 03:58:37.239 --> 03:58:41.799 still authoritative for the Orthodox Church because it's been accepted throughout the whole Orthodox world. 2905 03:58:43.440 --> 03:58:50.399 So likewise, even local councils and their canons can be authoritative, and 2906 03:58:50.440 --> 03:58:56.120 they can have say in the church even outside of their local jurisdictions. So 2907 03:58:56.200 --> 03:59:03.719 for example, the councils of Carthage were local councils, but they eventually received 2908 03:59:03.840 --> 03:59:05.399 in some of not all of them, but the ones for example about the 2909 03:59:05.440 --> 03:59:09.399 Canada Scripture, they're accepted by the sixth and seventh Council. So if it's 2910 03:59:09.399 --> 03:59:15.840 accepted eventually finally by the Seventh Council, even a local synod can be of 2911 03:59:15.959 --> 03:59:20.799 authority. And I think one principle to remember here a lot of times Protestants 2912 03:59:20.799 --> 03:59:24.079 and Roman Catholics, they're always like, give me the list of the things 2913 03:59:24.079 --> 03:59:26.319 that I have to believe, and then things that I don't. I want 2914 03:59:26.360 --> 03:59:31.200 the infallible list, and then I want the fallible list. And in Orthodoxy, 2915 03:59:31.239 --> 03:59:33.079 there isn't this thing. There is no easy answer to this question, 2916 03:59:33.440 --> 03:59:37.120 and we would argue that anybody that thinks they have it is diluted. And 2917 03:59:37.159 --> 03:59:41.280 we would argue that practice of the Roman Catholic Church claiming to have that has 2918 03:59:41.319 --> 03:59:46.600 actually completely fallen apart and undermined itself because it doesn't actually possess this because it's 2919 03:59:46.600 --> 03:59:50.159 a it's a it's a it's a selling point that doesn't actually exist. So 2920 03:59:50.840 --> 03:59:56.840 there's dogmatic teachings and councils right from the from the Orthodox ecumenical councils. Yes, 2921 03:59:58.639 --> 04:00:03.319 but there's also councils that aren't quote ecumenical councils once the ecumena is gone, 2922 04:00:03.959 --> 04:00:07.920 that are still authoritative and that we've still looked to, even if they're 2923 04:00:07.959 --> 04:00:13.200 local synods like the Confession of Peter Mohila or you know, Synative Yase. 2924 04:00:15.079 --> 04:00:20.360 You know, these different Orthodox synods have been received and accepted and they have 2925 04:00:20.440 --> 04:00:24.319 authority even if they're not quote ecumenical councils. And that's because it's not just 2926 04:00:24.360 --> 04:00:28.840 a question of what's infallible or fallible in the Orthodox world. It's a totally 2927 04:00:28.840 --> 04:00:35.840 different ecclesiology, and everybody is normally governed by local synods. So your local 2928 04:00:35.879 --> 04:00:39.840 bishop is not infallible, but he still has authority. So it's absolutely wrong 2929 04:00:39.959 --> 04:00:48.360 to juxtapose authority and infallibility. And everybody's looking for where's the one infallible thing? 2930 04:00:48.719 --> 04:00:50.079 The guy or the list that I have to submit to, And I'm 2931 04:00:50.079 --> 04:00:54.239 saying it doesn't work like that because in the Orthodox Church, it's functioning like 2932 04:00:54.360 --> 04:01:00.719 the Church always functioned, which is through synodal governance synods, and so even 2933 04:01:00.760 --> 04:01:05.719 though your local synod is not infallible, it still has authority. So that 2934 04:01:05.879 --> 04:01:09.559 it's the whole the whole mindset is wrong, is what I'm trying to say. 2935 04:01:09.920 --> 04:01:13.280 Okay, Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I've kind of 2936 04:01:13.479 --> 04:01:16.959 been been back and forth with my dad a little bit. He's a conservative, 2937 04:01:18.000 --> 04:01:24.079 Pentecostal and dispensationally, so the conversations have been interesting. But like the 2938 04:01:24.360 --> 04:01:28.840 passage about binding and loosing, is that something that would be applied to bishops 2939 04:01:28.920 --> 04:01:31.479 or to those synods and that kind of stuff, or yeah, sure, 2940 04:01:31.840 --> 04:01:37.760 I mean the local bishop can excommunicate somebody, right, Okay, so that's 2941 04:01:37.799 --> 04:01:43.760 binding. And when the priest, when you confess your sins and you get 2942 04:01:43.799 --> 04:01:48.479 absolution, he's doing that as the as the helper to the bishop got So 2943 04:01:48.559 --> 04:01:52.399 that's binding and losing. Yeah, So like that's something that I'm like, 2944 04:01:52.440 --> 04:01:58.280 how in the world is the Protestant world kind of have any concept of of 2945 04:01:58.280 --> 04:02:01.479 binding and loosing? When there's no kind of Norman authority like that. Yeah, 2946 04:02:01.520 --> 04:02:03.159 exactly. They just say it's preaching the gospel, that's money and lucy. 2947 04:02:05.280 --> 04:02:07.399 But Jesus breathed on them and said, whoever sends you remit who they're 2948 04:02:07.440 --> 04:02:11.079 remitted, or ever sends you retain, they're retained. That there's not nothing 2949 04:02:11.120 --> 04:02:16.520 like Protestantism right there, right right? Something else to kind of do with 2950 04:02:16.879 --> 04:02:20.479 My dad was always talking about the rapture and stuff about the caught up to 2951 04:02:20.520 --> 04:02:24.159 meet him in the air kind of thing. Is there anything that you would 2952 04:02:24.200 --> 04:02:26.040 say kind of yeah, it's just talking about the second Coming. It's not 2953 04:02:26.079 --> 04:02:31.760 talking about a pre tribulation rapture. Right, Okay, just one more thing 2954 04:02:33.280 --> 04:02:37.399 like you I've heard you mentioned before that these topics take a lot of time 2955 04:02:37.440 --> 04:02:41.799 to really work through, and of course that's true. I mean, I'm 2956 04:02:41.799 --> 04:02:46.280 twenty two, So how how do I how do I know if if I'm 2957 04:02:46.319 --> 04:02:50.120 considering Orthodoxy that I'm not just kind of persuaded by the first thing I hear, 2958 04:02:50.159 --> 04:02:52.799 Like, how do I have confidence and whether I should convert or not 2959 04:02:52.879 --> 04:02:56.399 if I haven't spent decades learning? Well, the good thing about most Orthodox 2960 04:02:56.479 --> 04:03:01.399 churches is that you take a long time to learn it. So it's not 2961 04:03:01.479 --> 04:03:05.120 like the Bautist church that you go and walk on the all and you join 2962 04:03:05.159 --> 04:03:11.959 it. You spend one to three years typically doing catechises. So and that's 2963 04:03:11.280 --> 04:03:16.360 that's that's after you're an inquirer. So you might choose, and I would 2964 04:03:16.399 --> 04:03:18.879 recommend taking your time. I do not tell people to rush in Orthodoxy, 2965 04:03:20.000 --> 04:03:24.120 take your time. You don't want to make a rash decision. You'd also 2966 04:03:24.159 --> 04:03:26.680 don't want to join a church that you later find out might be more liberal 2967 04:03:26.719 --> 04:03:31.600 than your taste. So take your time, don't rush. You're going to 2968 04:03:31.639 --> 04:03:35.879 be an inquirer for a period of time, make that as long as you 2969 04:03:35.920 --> 04:03:39.920 feel necessary, and then you become a catechumen and that's one to three years 2970 04:03:39.920 --> 04:03:45.319 typically maybe six months depends. Okay, So there's no there's no rush. 2971 04:03:45.719 --> 04:03:48.879 That's helpful. I don't know. I'm sure this is kind of dependents on 2972 04:03:50.440 --> 04:03:54.440 the specific perish and stuff too, But like the vespers, degree vespers and 2973 04:03:54.520 --> 04:03:58.399 daily vespers, is that something that I should be going to or or divine 2974 04:03:58.440 --> 04:04:03.120 liturgy or yeah, go to all of them, okay, I mean as 2975 04:04:03.200 --> 04:04:09.239 much as you want to, Okay, cool, Yeah, I think that's 2976 04:04:09.399 --> 04:04:13.079 that's basically all I had. I appreciate it absolutely good. Questions are we 2977 04:04:13.120 --> 04:04:16.879 going for four hours? I don't have any more energy, so apologize to 2978 04:04:18.000 --> 04:04:22.840 anybody who wanted to keep going. But I want to remind you that the 2979 04:04:22.920 --> 04:04:26.159 show sponsor is chalk dot Com. Head on over to chalk dot com and 2980 04:04:26.280 --> 04:04:28.280 check out the new product we have, which is chad Mode. 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Richard is live right now because it's Sunday night and 3005 04:06:22.600 --> 04:06:26.319 I want to remind you that every Sunday they do Grant Theft World, which 3006 04:06:26.399 --> 04:06:33.760 is an amazing seven hour podcast going into deep, deep geopolitical study and awareness, 3007 04:06:35.319 --> 04:06:37.159 much like what you see me going into. So there's the link right 3008 04:06:37.200 --> 04:06:43.680 there to follow Richard, I highly recommend getting on over to rock Fin subscribe 3009 04:06:43.680 --> 04:06:46.680 me not just to Richard, but also to me. Over on Rockfin. 3010 04:06:48.079 --> 04:06:52.399 You can also get my philosophy course, which is twelve lectures thirty plus hours 3011 04:06:52.120 --> 04:06:56.760 of the history of Western philosophy, beginning with the Presocratics and working ourselves all 3012 04:06:56.760 --> 04:07:00.959 the way up to Postmodernism, Nietzsche, post minds. So there is the 3013 04:07:01.000 --> 04:07:05.000 link to my philosophy course if you want access to that, and of course 3014 04:07:05.079 --> 04:07:09.399 all the great lectures and podcasts at Jays Analysis and at Rockfinn and uh. 3015 04:07:09.440 --> 04:07:13.120 I think that's everything. Everybody, have a good night, Thanks Jack, 3016 04:07:13.319 --> 04:07:13.639 thank you,