Keep m m m m m m m m m m m. Yeah,
yeah you're up. Hello, biggests, biggas and nerds in the chat.
We're live, We're live. Sprung that one on you. You're trying to
trying to catch me distant Hillary. So the crowd was Jay was uh over
here waxing poetic about how beautiful and brave and stunning Hillary Clinton is. He
was praising. Were talking about Hillary hill dog we call her. Did not
look her in the Yeah, well we were talking about how cool it is
whatever. She's just like, that's so tight. That's that's freaking baller dude.
Hillary is a baller bro. It's just it's like, how we uh,
we were just talking about some of the people we look out to as
far as you know, the way that they treat the people around them.
I mean we everybody in the chat here knows that if they were in person
with me, I would also tell them to look down, to look away,
to avert their gaze. I'm not trying. I'm not trying to get
energy vampired by all you freaking toxic people in the chat. Are you toxic
civilians and pedestrians in the chat? Non e celebrities or not even e divas
like our guest, our guest, he's not even a guest anymore. It's
just he's just a staple. He's just he's my my emotional support. Jay
over here, my emotional support host for the struggle session. Today. We're
talking Dune, Dune, Frank Herbert's Dune and uh dni Veneve. How do
you even say this guy's name that uh just intentionally always pronounce it wrong so
that all the nerds will correct you in the Dennis vill Yeah, No,
we're gonna this is this is not gonna be a you know, seventeen minute
hipster video video essay about how Dune went into our masterpieces peak cinema, Denny
then news masterful, cinematic epic. Dean went into Know this is not that.
This is a struggle session. You guys, we're talking. We got
Jaydyer over here. We're gonna be talking deep stuff. We're going deep.
We're talking parapolitics, occult worldview, warfare, with with with with Jay DIYer
over he. He did a great breakdown of some of this stuff a few
weeks ago, which I just got to watch. I didn't want any spoilers
which he didn't. He didn't give any spoilers in that video. But I
love Jay's approach to kind of comparing what we see happening in Dune with the
uh, you know, deep politics Game of Thrones. You know that that
word is kind of lame now because of the series, but you know,
the the power struggles that go on at the upper eationalns of power in the
structure of uh kind of cosmic espionage that we see in the Dune films.
We're gonna do a full deep analysis today, Jase. Jay's read the books.
I've not read the books. So we have six books. I've read
the first two. Alright, he's read the first two books, which from
what I've heard, from what I've gleaned, cover basically what Dennis Villa ne
you've it's called it's it's pronounced pronoun him. I will leave this podcast.
I will leave this podcast. Do you think it's funny? Do you think
that's what? Do you think that's cute? Do you think it's cute to
just just dead name somebody just pronounce his name wrong? Alright, how's the
audio, guys? Let me make sure. Sometimes I forget to check the
stream and they remind me how boomer my audio is. But I think I
think we're good. I don't see anybody complaining about the audio. It's a
rarity. We did it with No, we have no boomer errors in the
beginning. Yeah, the only Boomer here, The only Boomer here is young
Boomer, the greatest rapper alive, one of the only rappers left, one
of the two of the only rappers left, Young Boomer. Little aids here.
You know, you notice that neither of us has been caught up in
some kind of human trafficking scandal. You know, maybe maybe some of the
help that Jay's fired over the years have lodged some complaints about how he doesn't
let them look him in the eyes, and how you know, the various
strange people look down I'm gonna get like a blinder, right, blinds that
kind of they have over their face so they don't look me out. Yeah
no, but I mean just normal stuff like that. You might get complaints
like that. You might get some slander from some of some of the help
that used to work for me, particularly the my little uh my little,
my little New Zealand I call them my little Zelanders, my my little,
my little New Zealand. They're about four foot eight pigmy ladies that have plucked
my head before these streams to get a nice and shiny as you notice I
got. I got some fuzz going on here. I've lost I've lost a
couple of employees lately. But you you might hear some weird things from them.
They're actually they're actually plucking out the hair implants that you've got. It's
not actually plucking out the real hair, that's the word. They're they're plucking
out the hair so that the hair so that the implants can be can be
tried to we try again. They're actually plucking out your hair to make the
implants to stick back in. Yeah. No, they're saying that. They're
I mean, here's the thing, guys, here's the thing, the uh
you know there's something ridiculously here's the thing. The the doctor last time the
implants didn't take my body rejected. They rejected the locks. They're they're saying
that we need to get a racially we need to get a match that that
that will actually be racially compatible with my head, with my skin. Appropriated.
Yeah, I mean so some call it appropriation. I call it.
I call it this is what you do when you get paid. When you
got that YouTube money, when you got that over one hundred viewers, slightly
over one hundred live viewers on your YouTube stream, you get to you get
to have your head plucked by the help people not watch the movies anymore.
I don't understand. Nobody cares about this movie. What's going on? We
come, we come, We're not We're not like like your channel over there,
Jay, we got we don't. We don't get as as much uh
as many many folks over here. But nowhere the spice will flow, We'll
get more live viewers. We're we're about quantity, not quality over here.
So the the quality of view the quality of viewers very high. Yeah,
kwanza, kwanza. So yeah, man, we got we got the We've
got the The Chad Book respector versus the Virgin movie Enjoyer. We'll get two
different perspectives. I gotta say, I did really, I did really like
both of these films. I mean, I think, uh, you know,
there are a lot of complaints. I've heard a lot of complaints.
You know, Zendia ruined it. I get where people are coming from with
some of that stuff. Some people are upset with the Zendia the sick of
see in her face. But I don't know. I've got a little bit
of a different take, which I'll talk about later on with that kind of
stuff. But yeah, we've got two movies here, Dune one June two,
Part one, Part two. Uh. These two parts apparently are telling
the entire story from the first Dune novel, which are our expert scholar Frank
Herbert Frank Herbert Junior Jay Dyer here has read. And yeah, let's let's
start out with the first one. Let's start out with the first one.
It does, unfortunately start out with Zendia. You know, I was thinking
we would get, Yeah, Zendiah's scowling face. Literally every scene she's got
mad face. I watched it again last night, and every scene is she's
like, she smells something weird, she smells something peculiar. You know,
she's trying to figure out what that what that stink is and gay. Yeah.
Well, and and despite despite Zendiah and uh, twinket, the shallow
shallow, may you know there's not the first one is pretty good. The
first one is pretty dangn good. Uh. The plot, the the pacing
of it, the editing and like visually, I think visually is what most
people are are raving about, is just how visually and and engaging this film
is. You know, it's not and it's not just visual, it's the
audio as well. It's kind of like a full sensory experience that they're going
here, going for here with both of h with both of these films.
So yeah, we've got We've got Paula Trades, who's the the young Star
is a starry eyed young man with with the universe at his fingers, the
universe, yeah, and a uh and his mother is his mother's a nang
witch. His mother is a Bena Jesuit. The Benajesritz are kind of this
order of manipulative occultic them lord ladies who address like espionage handlers of the religious
world who have a kind of cult that have developed these techniques of mind control
and so forth that they use to help run the universe from their backs.
So they're they're one power faction. You've got the in the novel that is
not a huge element of the movie. This movie, the Villain News version
left out not much stress on the Trading gild. The Trading Gill plays a
pretty important role in the books, and you have these weirdo guys who are
kind of mutated from being human into being like these giant, sort of vagina
looking creatures. Have you ever seen the David Lynch version. I meant to
ask you if you've seen the David line. You know, I got about
halfway through the David Lynch version and I fell asleep. Not because I hated
it, but it's just I was so tired, but I tried to watch
it. I think I might have tried to watch it two times. I've
seen select scenes from it since then, but yeah, I've never been able
to get through the David Lynch phone. So if you remember the beginning,
right when the guild Master comes to the the Emperor's Throne room, do you
remember that weird guy in the tank. Yeah? Yeah, So they played
a key role as a power of faction, representing kind of economics and the
control of the spice and the use of the spice for like war. They're
like they're like the Space bankers who kind of kind of but they they're controlling
commerce and travel. So like you need the spy the Spacing Guild to fold
space. Yeah, and they do that with they do that with the spice
spice minannge, that spice milllege, which is only harvested on this single planet.
There's one realm called Aracus where the freemen live there. So Iracus Iracus
is you know, Herbert Frank Herbert was definitely thinking of you know, the
Middle East. The Middle East Wars is kind of around the time of the
rise of uh the Zion estate. So you have all these different religious factions
within the Middle East fighting for power over land resources, and of course Herbert
Frank Herbert being a yeah, seemingly like skeptical, maybe not a full on
nihilist, but more like a classical liberal libertarian in type. When you look
at kind of his what his worldview is. You know, I've heard him.
He's got a quote where he says, the government is basically what are
you? The Government's like a lie that we agree upon, kind of like
they basically he put a little twist on the history as a lie agreed upon,
but he says, the government is this illusion that we all pretend is
real and we don't really need government. So you know, he most definitely
interjected that kind of anarchist. Well, he was a GOP speech writer,
which is odd because this is not what we think of as sci fi writers.
Typically. We think of sci fi people as like these full on kind
of hg Wels socialist utopians where there's going to be you know, a kompod
tech future or whatever. And so the couple things that I do appreciate about
his future sci fi world is that we don't have faking Galiens. No Galiens
here. There's a ban on Ai. It kind of gets reinstated to a
degree this people don't necessarily follow. But there's this period called the Butlerian Jahad
which happened prior to the events of Dune, where Ai enslaved men. The
whole universe was enslaved by Ai, and this figure called as Butler, he
rose up and said it's time to overthrow and ban Ai. So that's just
really odd, out of place in terms of science fiction novels. And as
we were saying, with the notion of the power struggles and the different factions,
and you've got the emperor, you've got the different houses sort of noble
houses. So so it's an odd future where things that we think would also
be gone, like nobility in an emperor in a you know, tech,
socialist utopia, rural equal you know, a s U L Yeah, yeah,
exactly. I like these elements being unique to a future sci fi world
where it's not a bunch of the typical socialist stuff but totally totally Yeah,
you're completely right, you know, it's it's really refreshing to have, you
know. And what's interesting about this whole world is there's an assumed natural hierarchy
that's unavoidable, right, like, even even in fiction, even in the
fiction world, you can't you can't conceive of a world where there isn't natural
hierarchy, where there isn't where you know, marriage isn't you know, between
a man and a woman, and anything outside of those boundaries is something that's
destructive, which is regularly shown, at least in the films. I don't
know if if I heard the Freemen are like Polly in the in the books,
yeah, they're weird in the in the book, they're kind of so
we have to understand, I think, as you're you're right there. You
know, Herbert's definitely not Christian. His vision of the future is perennialist and
secretoust, so uh, and it's kind of unclear he's not really conservative,
as you pointed out, but again there are some traditional he's like a libertarian,
anarchist leaning kind of guy who you know, would align with more of
the so called traditional right wing values of you know, I mean even he
makes the hearken in like big fat gay slops you know, in the books.
Also they're also peed oh. He exactly abuse children, and the novel
is very clear of their ped oh, which is interesting. So and like
you said, he's running during the Cold War. So there's definitely this idea
of we want to we want to point out the dangers of status tyranny,
collectivism, stalinism. Those are obviously kind of being critiqued. But also he
I think if you read Uh Do Messiah the sequel, he wanted to uh
note that even good guys can be tempted with too much power. Because Paul
Paul becomes a kind of a back and forth tragic hero. He kind of
is a herobody kind of isn't and in the long running is of definitely a
good guy. But but he's definitely not the Massaiah we think he is.
And so that's that's something that the story. It's a direction the story goes
that most people don't expect and you don't think if you only watch and see.
Here's the thing. I grew up watching the David Lynch Dune. I've
always loved it. Everybody hated it. It's it's critically you know, despised.
I just I've always liked it ever since I was a kid watching it.
Just something about it was unique. And the other thing I appreciated about
the Dnnist version is I was worried that they wouldn't have some homage and elements
of the David Lynch version in it, but they did. They kept some
of those elements. It kind of has a Lynch spirit to it, which
I appreciate. And that might just be would you what are some of those
elements like that? You would have expected them to some of the aesthetics,
And I mean maybe that's attributable to the the Giger art concept art, but
also it might be that I think Dennis and Lynch were both really striving to
be faithful to the book the original. Sorry, who's Dennis? You mean
calling him Denis to piss off the nerds? Now you have to put the
accent in the right exactly, Thank you. It's it's it's Kiev it's not
Kiev. It's I don't know if you know how to pronounce words or not,
but it's ghost. Yeah. So some of the elements I think of
the of the Lynch version, of the cinematography, that the the aesthetics that
carry over. And the reason I like that is that because the novels are
syncretists, you've got Islamic influence, you've got Zen influence, You've got particularly
sunny sort of Islam. You've got Catholic influence because in the in the religion,
the world of doing, the religion is called it's called the Orange Catholic
Bible. And this is this idea where in the future the Catholicism and Islam
have fused into this bizarre sort of kind of a Nestorian type of Christianity,
you could say. And I think that's kind of why Paul is a is
a sort of God figure who he's not exactly the Word of God, but
sometimes he calls himself the Voice of God, the voice from the outer world.
But does he do that in the first novel. Is that only later
on where he starts using that language. No, it's it's in the novel
first, because yeah, in the film he doesn't use that specific term.
He does he does reference God will one time at least in the film he
says voice of God. I think at the in the last sequence, because
we just watched it last night, when you know, when he's confronting at
the very fact the last thing when he fights Fade and he's basically sassing everybody.
He sassins Christopher Walking and the Reverend Mother and he says something like I
am the Voice or something like that. Yeah, he did. I wish
we had I wish I had like a there was a DVD version, because
you know, I could only see it once, the second one. But
yeah, I remember at some point he does he does use the term God.
So it's it's an interesting thing how in most sci fi now scientism comes
like the religion, right, It's assumed that scientism is true. So most
sci fi will focus on either a dystopian vision of the future where scientism kind
of goes too far in one direction, and you know, maybe we should
rearrange our priorities and be a little bit more humanist in our in our approach,
and you know, so there's this sci fi has become, so it's
become so dreary it's so demoralizing, right, some sci fi films in general
a propaganda tool for demoralization, for bringing out you know, new tech,
for uh, you know, kind of just forming the worldview, right,
this kind of an idea of occult worldview warfare. Hollywood is very much you
know, the benages or order to such an extent that there are like the
new priesthoods. So it's it's almost surprising that these films were made in the
way that they were, although you know there are are the you know,
there is the and this seems to come from Frank Herbert, this very skeptical
towards religion, very uh uh, you know, really kind of bitter about
you know, the idea of a Messiah figure, this extreme skepticism towards anything
any man becoming a great man. You see that theme throughout Hollywood, but
it it kind of gets subverted in Dune, at least the first two in
a lot of ways. I'm almost worried. I mean, I was thinking
about this at the end of Doune part two, like they're just they're they're
gonna ruin it because there's some there is a danger that doing Messiah because he
does I think he does plan to make. So the next story will be
doing Messiah, which is the sequel of the books. But remember, so
there's a there's and I've not finished it yet, but apparently when I'm told
happens without swung the whole story. But so Paul is going to have twins,
and one of those twins famously will become Wormboy. So the way that
the salvation of the human race happens in the story is that Leto the second
Paul, one of the Paul's twins, there's a sister and a brother,
Leado the second will merge with the worm, and that's partly why we've seen
so many kind of mystical connections between Paul and the worm to become the worm
Emperor. And this actually initiates a thousand year reign of peace or the human
race, which ends up being the only timeline that Paul could have chosen to
save the human race. So in the long run, what Herbert ended up
doing was kind of making Paul sort of a kind of Messiah. It didn't
exactly go the way that everybody planned, but that I think is the point
of the story. That the things that you think initially are kind of at
odds shihlu versus the humans, right, they actually become merged. And I'm
not say saying that that's ethical or moral or Christian. I'm just saying that
it's it's unique. And ultimately Paul doesn't up being not a bad guy.
He makes mistakes, but he's kind of inadvertent Messiah or lineage savior. You
might could argue that Lido the worm boy, is the savior by the boy.
Yeah, I mean, so that worm could become actually make a part
four it that will be wild. I mean you're gonna see like the Worm
Emperor. That's gonna be wild. I almost wish that they would just just
leave it, just leave it at the two, because I love the way
that it ends. It's so it leaves it so open ended. And it's
interesting seeing people argue. Right. You'll see people kind of like in our
you know, people coming from more of a Christian from the right, more
right wing perspective, saying that they love the film right, that they love
the aspect of the assumption, like you can't get away from monarchy, he
can't get away from patriarchy, you don't get away from hierarchy. The the
free will aspect of the film of their being. You know, Yet these
characters, no matter how far along they go in this like demonic realm of
being totally taken over by they're not taken over by, but consuming so much
of the spice, which allows Paul to see the past and the future.
He still has free will, and his choices end up leading and he tries
to take what he calls like the Golden path or whatever. So this the
path that will result in it's not really clear. It doesn't He doesn't overtly
state his desires. You see that he has some sympathy towards the Fremen,
who are you know, there's an aspect of the Fremen being you know,
they're kind of the guerrilla warfare guys. They're the you know, the mystics
who live this kind of nature based religion. So they're, you know,
they It's not like a full on Marxist undertone as Blade Runner twenty forty nine
had, which is another Deniven new film, which was a great film,
flawed in some ways, but you know, it's a fantastic film. Paul
sympathizes with them, but then he's also drawn towards his destiny, right,
He's drawn towards this greatness, and I think in Hollywood you have this at
this demonization of you know, actual greatness. Right, Like I didn't watch
I didn't watch the Napoleon film, but it seems and I think Napoleon was
a total antichrist figure. But at the same time, it's just this trope
of, well, there are great men that rise up every once in a
while, and it's awful and terrible, and we have to do everything that
we can to stop that from ever happening again, from any you know,
single man becoming so great and having so much power. You know that again,
they may do that in the third one, but I think people will
it would be such a flop because it's not the way the storyline goes,
and in fact, it's it's not even really gonna work for a feminist narrative
because for those that don't know, Paul's sister Alia is a hugely tragic figure.
She will be more powerful than Paul because he's actually born. So when
Jessica drinks the water of life, this actually like double empowers Alia, and
the water of life being this like super distilled spice in a lot of ways,
right, because the worms are crawling through this planet a rackets. Well,
it's like, I mean, the worms are feeding on they're sifting all
this sand, consuming these giant spice harvesters, consuming all the water from the
people. So it's like the worms are this symbol of just consumption, but
this natural cycle of death of like the underworld, right, and then to
get the water of life, I thought it was well done. You know,
they have to get a small baby worm and suck out the fluid from
inside of it, which of course I would. You know. It's like
it's almost like this alchemical transformation of the spice into this super concentrated almost poison.
Correct, it's a super potent hallucinogen, and in the book it's made
really clear when when Paul drinks it, it's a really intense basically like mega
d mt acid trip. Okay, so again we're space as we're not talking
about anything Christian. There's just these sort of it's very gnostic, right,
I mean, it's this material that you can find consume and this material will
hyper accelerate your consciousness so that you can have more power within the realm,
within the known universe. So it's kind of and it's a it's the spices
itself really demonic. I mean, it's an evil thing that actually ends up
drawing people into I mean, it seems like the spice is this catalyst for
these massive genocides, these holy wars, and these battles for resources. Would
you would you agree with that or do you think I think I don't think
it's I think it's a neutral thing in the story. It's a very powerful
commodity that has the ability to give you, you know, advanced vision,
enlightenment and the space travel. So it's kind of like Heroin Heroin oil,
right, sure. But it also it's like, I mean, it's almost
from the Christian perspective, is you're kind of looking at like the tree,
the fruit of the tree, the knowledge of good and evil in a lot
of ways, you know, and it's used sacramentally in certain contexts. So
there's this What I what I do like about this too is the way it's
portrayed is how religion is inevitable. Faith is the fabric of the cosmos.
Faith is the driving force between behind every single character's actions, including even even
Polytrdes and his mother, Lady Jessica. But Lady Jessica, the mother of
Polytrdes, is the member of the Benjesrit Order, who even the name is
based on Jesuit, right, the Jesuit Order, the Benjester, Yeah,
the Beny Jesuits, which is you know, referring to the Jesuits. But
also there are aspects of many different kind of religious occult religious type groups that
are there. But she she ends up and it's hard to tell whether she's
manipulating sometimes when she's speaking to what's her name, Aliyah in the womb,
right, I mean, I remember at the end, near the end of
the film, Aliyah starts speaking to her after she had taken this water of
life. Aliah has this awakening and she becomes this fetus in the womb is
telepathically communicating with her mother, and it is becoming very powerful. Right.
That's what I'm saying, is that what happens and this is why won't really
work unless they significantly depart from the novel. This in the next one is
that there's no way to make this feminist unless you just totally depart from the
story. Because Alia will be born with all the powers of a grown,
mature reverend mother, which as a child is really unheard of. And so
if you remember in the novel or in the movie at the end the Christopher
Walkins Reverend Mother was saying that all of our hope is not just in Paul
there or others, which could be the child of Fate Ralph, or it
could be Alia. And the thing with Alia is that she will There's some
really wild stuff in Do Messiah. That's it's almost seems Crollian, because she
eventually gets her own cult, so people start worshiping her. There's a religion
that forms around her. The imagery has shown where that she almost had.
She has like this ritual where she holds up a chalice. It's very reminiscent
of like the Horror Babylon in the Book of Revelation. Again perhaps even Krollian,
the way Crowley speaks of the scarlet woman. And then Alia ends up
going matt so she goes crazy. She's going to be a villain, the
tragic villain figure. She has to that. You have to do that with
that character. She's got to be completely twisted and insane. And here's the
crazy part. She will actually be. This is something that the novel deals
with. I'm not aware of other maybe some so fi novels. I'm not
a huge sci fi reader. But that's in Dune Messiah where she goes nuts.
Yeah, but the novel deals with genetic memories. So if you remember
the when when Jessica drinks the water Bluff, she remembers and has the knowledge
of all the previous Reverend mothers because of genetic memories. Paul is awakened to
genetic memories as well. That's why he's always talking about the sleeper must awaken
and so forth, which is more prominent in the David Lynch one than in
this one. But yeah, the genetic memories empower you. But there's a
downside of the genetic memories which can empower you, which is that you can
also be possessed by alternate personalities of your relatives. So when Alia gets possessed,
she actually gets possessed by Baron Harkone because that's her granddad. Okay,
that crazy, Well there's that life from Paul. He's like, we will
win by what did he say? Well, win by being like the Hearkens.
Does will have to be like him? Then he finds out he is
one right, So but at one point I didn't want to make earlier,
so he's in the novel. He is the voice from the outer world,
so he is identified as the Voice of God, the Word of God.
And again it's weird because it's not exactly explained. It's kind of maybe meant
in a nestorian ish sense. So, but there's a great scene in the
David Lynch one at the end where when he kills Fade, he speaks and
it like splits Fade open because he has that power. And apparently that that
was kind of unique to the Lynch one, where there's not I don't know,
it's been ten years since I read the novel. I remember a lot
of it, but I don't. They don't have the killing words like they
do in the David Lynch version. So if you notice in the dentist version
they don't fight with words, that's unique to the David Lynch version. You
know what I'm talking about. I didn't see the end of the David Lynch
version, you know how what's throughout it. But do you remember how when
Jessica, for example, she uses the voice she's training Paul to use use
the voice here, come over here, and then the other benijesterrit Seductress uses
the voice on Fade Lynch version, they developed that idea of the weirding way
where Paul teaches the Fremen how to fight with words, so you can actually
say a killing word and it like this little machine projects the word out.
I always thought that was cool. Yeah, it's cool. I guess I
could see why it would be really difficult to portray in film, right,
you know, for a novel, it's way easier to portray, but especially
after Star Wars, right, because well that's another thing that you notice when
you watch Dune, realizing that the first novels were written in the nineteen sixty
five I mean, Star Wars is almost completely based off of this. Star
Wars is just like a distilled uh normy version of Noone for people with eighty
five I Q, it's not it's I mean the Jedi tricks, the even
the the relationship between Luke and his and Darth Vader. Right, you have
Paul a Trade, he's finding out that his grandfather is Baron Harken, and
you have a similar situation in uh in Star Wars where he finds out that
Vader is his father, and there's there's just there's so many parallels and but
yeah, I gotta say, is just like a Racus right where is Yeah,
there's a lot of these, by the way. I also the more
I thought about Game of Thrones, I mean I have to believe that George
Martin was pulling from this as well, and even to the point of like
low Iq Marvel stuff. I mean, if you think about it, the
fact that Paul is enlightened via the ritual and then he sees various timelines that
he chooses one from that that's the same plot as Doctor Strange in The Avengers,
where he has to depopulate the universe by allowing fan of he indirectly allows
Danos to win, which depopulates the universe, and that is later explained that
Doctor Strains chose the one timeline where he can save the human race straight out
of Dun. Yeah. Yeah, No, There's so many parallels, and
it really makes you it really makes it easier to diss on George Lucas and
Star Wars, which it's almost like all the fantasy rips off Lord of the
Rings and all the sci fi rips off Duane basically sure, sure, And
I think Dune pulled a little bit from Lord of the Rings as well.
I mean, you know, I mean the Spice the Ring there. There
there are certain parallels there that you know, maybe in fantasy sci fi is
this type of symbolism is unavoidable. But I see some some parallels there.
Have you come across the fact that Tolkien really disliked Dune. He didn't like
Frank from what I've read, I haven't read the direct quotes from him,
but Tolkien didn't like the cynical nature of Frank. Herbert's the reality where there's
there's no there's no real clear good and evil. There's just like way evil
and slightly less evil, which I think it ends up working against Herbert.
I think this is one of those films, just like I don't know,
you look like the Barbie movie, where you've got a bunch of liberals try
to make a film where it's they're trying to give you one message, but
they end up subverting their own message because they're unavoidably stepping in their own filth,
and they end up making something really interesting. And I think even with
Herbert his cynicism towards religion. From what I've heard, he wrote the first
book and then was really upset with how people were lionizing Paul and people really
were like Paul is the people saw Paul as being such a great figure.
Like it really the first The Dune, Part one and part two, it's
almost like a hagiography about this character Paul, who has the opportunity to be
a true leader. He really does a lot of great things. We don't
know his true motivations ultimately, but there are possible selfish motivations for a lot
of what he does, revenge, you know, vengeance being a major thing
for him. But it's almost like a secular hagiography of this great man figure
who is his type of Antichrist, right, he is a type of Antichrist,
and that he's manipulating certain prophecies and fulfilling this role as this prophet within
the structure of these prophecies to get things done geopolitically and personally. But then
there's another layer of this where the audience is not so sure. Well,
perhaps perhaps there's some truth to these prophecies, because even Lady Jessica ends up
saying that the fetus, what is that child called Aliyah, And it's I'm
so glad that they used it. They used Ai to actually bring back Aliyah
from the from the nineties, and and she yeah, she has some great
solo. She has some great songs in the film as well, so that
the fact that they used Aliyah it was great. I'm joking, boomer joke,
but that's a gen X joke. Bro Alia Aliah, like none of
the Zoomer is watching. If there are any Zoomers, you're not even allowed
to watch this. But yeah, I think I think so man. I
think like, did he had her jay Z and those people they think they're
messed with her when she was really young. She was like sixteen fifteen,
which is famous. So anyways, Aliyah tells well, Jessica tells Paul that
Aliah is telling her that Aliyah believes in him and is starting to believe that
the prophecies are real. So you get this aspect of well, you're not
so sure. Are the prophecies all just benjeser It manipulations for geopolitical power and
for power over people? Or is there an aspect of truth? Is Paul
the Lea song is at the lisan Al Gayib or whatever is he is he
truly lisan Al Gaib. It's open ended, and I think that ends up
undermining the cynical viewing of the film as and like all religion is just fake.
It's all just like some people that are just trying to control you and
get your magic mushrooms so that they can have all the magic mushrooms and do
the space acid so that they can fold space time or whatever. It's like,
I don't know. I think I kind of like, I kind of
like how it ends without the Dune Messiah addition, because you've got at the
end of it and then I know you've got a lot of great insights too,
j Sor I've been rambling here, but you have this kind of great
man figure who ends up leading these people into a holy war. And at
the end of the in the theater, most people are like cheering on.
They're like, yeah, holy war. This is based like we love it.
And I think a lot of that's because of the aesthetics of it.
The aesthetics of the film are are it's a beautiful. The cinematography is amazing,
the way that it's shot, even the color schemes. It's not that
sound. The sound is amazing. So all the aesthetics lead you to be
cheering on for Paul. You want Paul to win because he's facing little little
fat uh you know, pedo demon guys, and you want him to you
want him to be the lisan Al gaib And in the end of it,
even Chani, the kind of obnoxious character who's basically a stand in Channis.
Like throughout the films, Channi is the character the audience is supposed to be
seeing themselves in. The audience is supposed to be seeing the world through Channi.
And that's why she's there at all these key moments. And she's not
really like a feminist figure, but she's a little girl bossy. I mean,
she's fighting in the war and stuff, and she's, uh, there's
a romantic element to this, and she feels betrayed by Paul, right Paul.
She had told Paul, I'll love you for as long as you are
who you are or something like that, and as he changes, she gets
to scall at him and make this stink face, you know, angry girlfriend
vibe. And then it gets really intense in the end when he ends up
leading everybody off of Aracus. He says, let's go, We're gonna go
to the Green Paradise. We're gonna go to war. We're having a dang
holy war with the rest of the houses. They all get on the ships
and they leave, and Chany stays behind. And the character that's supposed to
represent like the Western view or the average cynical about religion. Oh, it's
all just fake prophecies to manipulate you and take your oil. Bro. She
ends up rage crying and soyjacking alone with a giant worm on the sand world
at the end of the film. So it definitely subcurts your expectations on what's
supposed to happen. And she gets he gets completely cooked by Paul, who
marries the emperor's daughter, who's actually beautiful. I'm like Zendaia. He marries
like the Emperor Paul the sorry not the Emperor Paul. Paul becomes emperor and
takes the hand of the princess to marry her in a political move, which
you know, there's not like a romance between the two at this point.
It's purely political. And Zendaiah is left pissy, scowling and just rage crying
at the end of the film. So yeah, I think they probably chose
for Hollywood reasons to turn Chawny into this sort of sassy, conflicted character,
because I don't recall any of that in the book. I'm pretty sure she's
you know, if you watch the David Lynch version, it's a little closer
to the book in this regard because Mary Sean Young's character as Chawny basically just
totally like never, She's fierce and she's always sort of this primal tribal woman,
but she never questions Paul or like in Doing Messiah, she does kind
of give push back on some of his ideas and some of what she's worried
about him, because ironically, in doing Messiah, he turns into more of
a machine. He becomes a Mentat and sonat. So the Mentats were when
they banned AI in the Butlery and Jahad. The way to get around this
was that they have genetic manipulation, and genetic manipulation can allow for the creation
of highly like super high IQ people. So if you remember in Dune one,
that black dude that has the white eyes, Yeah, isn't he the
first character shown? The guy that uh is the guy that polked? Oh
no, I'm sorry, the black dude, the like albino is black dude.
He got the line on his Yeah. In the David Lynch version that
the Mentats have like these really huge eyebrows, and so the mentats become the
super high i Q Spurg they're basically the Spurgs. They're the Spurgs that consult
uh and plan UH like savants for the ruling powers. So like the Baron
has a mentat the House of Trades, has a mentat Thufer And so Paul
ends up becoming one of these human supercomputers in a way because he's not He
doesn't want to at all be controlled by emotion, so he becomes this very
calculated, cold machine like thing, and he's alienated, so he doesn't relate
to people. The closest connection he has, ironically is actually Chawny, but
even she's kind of simple to him because he's kind of like the pseudo god
figure. So he's kind of losing connection to the human race. And this
is partly what makes him a tragic figure. And and but he's not.
He doesn't end up being an anti cris. He actually ends up being this
well meg a longstory short. He ends up blinded by an event in doing
Messiah, so he loses his eyesight from an atomic going off, and he
realized this is his mistake that he isn't He does end up troubled from the
Jahad because you get like sixty or eighty billion people in the universe end up
dying from the Shahad that he kicks off, and he ends up retreating into
the desert like Obi wan Kenobi as a hermit. Does he lose the jihad
or does he win the Jahad? Well, they they kind of win,
but but it's not his jihad that saves everybody. It ends up in huge
misery. But what I'm saying is that the big irony here is that it's
his it's his son who's the worm boy, that that ends up bringing peace.
So what I think is going on, I'm speculating because I haven't finished
the whole storyline, but I think Herbert, maybe to your point, saw
that people shouldn't have been lionizing Paul in the first one. Messiah makes him
a cautionary figure, but ultimately he's not a bad guy because in a weird
inadvertent way, the prophecies end up kind of being true. So he's like,
he's like freaking out. He's like, no, you guys don't understand
it. Paul's not a good guy. And then he kind of seems like
he tried to retcon it a little bit and retroactively changed the interpretation that you're
supposed to get from it by adding more to the story. But maybe he
just I don't know. It's one of those things where it's like the piece
of art got out of the artist's hands almost, you know, I just
like everybody. I mean, the sequels are famously weird. I mean they
and they get weirder. So you think he was tripping a lot. Was
he taken? I mean I wondered about that. I couldn't find any evidence
of him actually necessarily doing drugs. Very possible, but I can't imagine him
writing is like the storyline about Paul taking so much spice that he becomes unable
to interact with people in a normal way. I mean, it just it
reminds me of people who have just gone so far down the you know,
people who just really overdid it with acid and mushrooms and stuff. Yeah,
I think you're right about that. It's very possible, and it does.
It does read like somebody maybe experimenting with LSD or something. But I mean
the sequel was just way weirder and different than I expected. It's much the
sequel is much more like a courtly intrigue espionage novel than it is any kind
of action story. So Dune is more is like action battles gigantic scope.
H The second novel is not like that at all. It's like a weird
courtly espionage assassination thing. They create this this this this weird guy who's supposed
to be Duncan reborn. They have the ability somehow Duncan who wasn't was that
the freaking what's his name? Duncan's the Jason Momoa character that's Paul's great best
friend, the warrior guy at the beginning who gets killed. So the the
court of Christopher Walkin and the Reverend Mother, they come up with a plot
where they wrote Eraline in to create this restore. They have the ability to
It's not a but they have the ability to, like it's kind of sort
of cloning, but not exactly. Like they bring back a kind of a
husk of a person who isn't the person, but has some of the genetic
memories of the person. And they do this as a kind of trick to
ultimately trick Paul to bring Duncan back. But Paul actually knows what they're doing,
so it doesn't really work, but he almost kills the twins at the
end. But so long story Shore is just what I like again is that
you've got terraforming, you've got mk ultra elements in the first one, Nick
and what they do what they call imperial conditioning to make sure that people are
mind controlled so that they don't and can't ever turn on one of the royal
houses. So wow, so they and they call it imperial conditioning is the
term. I wish they'd included that term in the films because you see some
of this The David Lynch, I gotta I gotta watch the David. There's
a lot of elements where the David Lynch was actually close for the books.
But the Doctor Yui, the Trader. One of the reasons that they trust
Doctor you is that he's supposed to have the Imperial conditioning. So he has
the mark on his third eye, which is supposed to signify that he's safe
and that he won't betray the house. He's a total mind controlled slave at
that point, right exactly. But here's the thing is that if he's if
it's the Imperial conditioning, that then it's still not going to be sufficient because
the Empire is conspiring against House with Trades because it's Christopher Walking and the Baron
who want Paul and Dukelido Dad. So you've got terraforming in the novels,
which is odd because geoengineering and terraforming are in Dune. I mean, who
knew about geo engineering and terraforming? Yeah, I mean a lot of these
topics seem like these are fringe topics at the time being talked to. I
mean, these are topics that were being discussed in think tanks right now.
If Herbert, if Frank Herbert, and I've heard he was, he was
a big Nixon guy, and if he wasn't being a geop speech writer,
Yeah, he was a goop speech writer. So he's for sure going to
a lot of these RAND Corporation meetings. You know, he's got to be
in these types of circles. It would seem likely, And my suspicion would
be that, yeah, he's hearing this stuff talked about, like, guys,
in fifty years, we're gonna be geoengineering, We're gonna try to terraform
by the year twenty twenties. He's probably hearing these kind of things, like
you're saying, RAND meetings or something for sure, and then this type of
stuff was in Like Asimov was talking about some of these topics too, So
these type of topics they were around, but it's interesting that he included them,
and in the film. I wish they had some more about it.
Sounds like in the books it was a bigger part of the plot is the
terraforming, because they do hint at this when they talk about how they're saving
all the water with the waters on Oracus. The Fremen will extract the water
juice from the bodies of their dead and they'll put them in these big pools
that are kind of underground, these large ponds, and they've got almost you
know, lakes. Yeah, so they're they're saving this up, apparently to
try to terraform it and make it into their green Pairaradise, which is also
prophesied in their prophecies that are given to them through the Benjesat, which those
prophecies are leveraged in order to get them to become geopolitical pawns, which is
this is you know, and I titled this in order to reference that concept,
that concept of religious engineering of a cult warview, a worldview warfare and
of parapolitics with I think Dune really does brilliantly touch on some of these some
of these subjects and show how important they are in a real world setting.
And I'd like to ask you a little bit. You know, I was
just reading through I finally started getting int Whitney Webb's book One Nation Under Blackmail.
You mentioned the spice being almost like space heroin. Well, the you
know, the heroin trade really being crucial to twentieth century geopolitics. Frank Herbert
obviously pointing that out. You know, the concept of the Golden Triangle has
talked about here in the first chapter. I mean, going all the way
back like the Sassoon family, who were a family out of England. But
you know, the Sassoon family was a Jewish family out of England who famously
got involved in the opium trade and actually helped to bring about the Opium Wars.
You know, they're trying to think the Opium Wars are absolutely fascinating and
the way that the Opium Wars played out are very reflective over how things have
happened in the twentieth century as well. So we're talking about the mid nineteenth
century, the British in China engaged in economic warfare as well as worldview warfare
and the use of drugs and the drug trade to demoralize people, to bring
about revolutionary fervor, to weaken a culture in order to become kind of a
basically vassal state in this you know, neoliberal so called free market at Richies
India Company was the most powerful corporation in the history of the world. In
fact, there's not even even Apple or anything today. It doesn't compare to
what was coming in on a daily basis to the East British's India Company in
their heyday. Yeah, it's absolutely staggering. You've also got the history of
like the Hudson's Bay Company leading up to the rise of the Bronfman family,
which is referenced here and there in her Underworld chapter. So could you want
to talk a little bit about it. I know you did a stream on
this recently, and I think it's kind of fresh in your mind. A
lot of this history of espionage, history of worldview warfare, even religious engineering,
especially as it relates to geopolitics around like the World War two era,
post World War two, the OSS, the creation of the CIA. Because
Herbert's book and the way that the Benjesrit order works with sexual blackmail and all
this really ties into that history. Yeah. The book I did just read
and talk about was Michael Grazziano's academic his book Airing into the Wilderness Religion the
History of the CIA. And of course this goes very well with Paul Williams's
Gladiol book, Daniel Ganster's thesis the NATO Gladio NATO's Secret Armies is what it's
called. And then it goes well with the wim Off book Time Life Magazine
in the CIA's doctrinal warfare program about John Courtney Murray, the famous Jesuit.
Yeah, I think this is it's an overlooked but very obvious when you start
to think about it. Relationship between the state and the church. Obviously,
the state has always wanted it to have some element of control over the church
to make sure that it's in line with the designs of the state. Sometimes
there's there's a harmony in a symphonia there, but other times there's a split.
And we have for example, Aryan emperors who want to enforce arianism or
iconic class emperors who want to enforce iconic classm and so the Church state butt
heads, but not as many people know about the secret sort of under the
table relationship where a lot of times clergy missionaries can be recruited to do spy
work, espionage work. You mentioned a few streams back that I Will Be
Done book where we have the Rockefellers having a direct interest in utilizing missionaries for
the promotion of their oil interests and their economics. There were a lot of
actizations. By the way, the British East India Company was also utilizing missionaries.
In fact, I bought a book on the history of the British US
India Company. I even found a really obscure British MP's investigation into the British
US India Company from like the year nineteen hundred something crazy it's austiny. Well,
you had to also consider, you know how the whole British pop thing
and the Beatles and all this helped to propel Eastern mysticism into the forefront of
Western culture, including yoga and all this. A lot of that came out
of the called the British Invasion, you know, all this very popular British
rock music and a lot of like the most experimental rock came out of out
of Britain, right with the whole the Canterbury scene with like the pro all
these prog bands who are tripping on a bunch of drugs and putting out this
very strange almost Eastern mysticism inspired but also classical musically and musical inspired, uh
theatrical music like the early Genesis stuff. So there was all this experimental mashing
of world religions into kind of this syncretistic culture that got pushed at the same
time as psychedelics are being pushed through. Of course, we know that's largely
You could point back to Blovatski and the Fabians who were pioneering a lot of
that, and they were doing that at the best of Lord Milner, Lord
Rothschild, Cecil Rhodes, the Miliner circles are really the brainchild and the power
behind the Fabians, and they're the predecessors to the sixties counterculture. They had
a mini sexual revolution in the eighteen nineties and the nineteen twenties and thirties that
were that was Fabian inspired, and then it really goes wild in the nineteen
sixties. So yeah, you're absolutely right that that's the same ties into a
lot of the same stuff. It's just I was reminded of the British East
India Company's history, where China was actually accusing the British of using missionaries to
be dope dope smugglers. I don't know whether that was the case, but
at least in the China. In the Chinese mind, one of the reasons
they did that they didn't like the British was that they thought the missionaries were
being used to do spy work or to as secretly sell dope. Well,
that that's fascinating. I mean that those types of allegations are all throughout the
twentieth century as well with the Rockefeller Foundation and in I Will be Done exactly.
I mean, it's it's not worth reading every page of it because it's
it's a massive tome. I think it's like eight hundred pages or something,
But yeah, Gerald Colby and Charlotte Dennetz that I will be done. They
talk a lot about how this group's like Si L and some of these CIA
connected missionary groups. Protestant groups used English translations of the Bible and trying to
get tribes to learn English in order to get them into predatory situations and signing
contracts for exploitation of resources and essentially just using religion and especially language and the
English language in order to get the in order to get this done. Yeah,
and this is this is why Mormon missionaries famously have been recruited by the
CIA. You know, there's a close connection between Mormonism and the CIA,
as well as a lot of other Protestant to missionaries and as well Catholic and
Orthodox have also been recruited by the OSS and CIA too. So out of
the OSS and the CIA try to use the fan ard, you know.
I mean, that's famously in the twentieth century, the Constantinople trying to be
a try just as a tool for geopolitical intrigue. Also, even you know,
these Protestant groups, like a lot of Mennonite groups get involved in strange
stuff these days too. You know, I've heard a lot of stuff about
Mennonite groups being involved in smuggling networks throughout Mexico and interfacing with cartel UH smuggling
operations and whatnot in Mexico because they have a lot of I've suspected that,
but I haven't seen in the past. I've never found like a heart,
I haven't spent a lot of time going down that rabbit hole. But yeah,
I've always thought that. I mean, if you grow up in Tennessee,
for example, there's a lot of men night Nomas that are still around,
and there's always we've always heard stories that they do all the same kind
of criminal activities as any other group. So I'm not surprised that that makes
sense. But yeah, to bring it back to kind of, you know,
the world of Doune, I thought it was very pression, very maybe
not pression, but it was very it was a very insightful move to have
the Benny jes Er It's be such a power or full force in the world
of religion that are pretty clearly espionage. And I noticed I did look up
some academic literary some other people had written on how the Benny Jesuits are basically
kind of like the CIA or some sort of spy agency. And so but
it's odd that they're all women, I'm not. I mean, you could
argue that the the they have these face shifters and in doing Messiah that will
come, by the way, that's also the George Martin Borrow's that the piece
the people that can shift their face, the nobodies or whatever they're called that's
from Dune too, do Messiah. They they might be spies, I guess
you could say from a male set, but it's just odd that the spies
are typically in Dune women. It's it is interesting. Some people will say,
well, he was a he's a huge misogynist. You know, women
were manipulative in Dune. You see. Even there was some tweet and trying
to find this funny tweet from if you just searched like Dune the on Twitter,
there's some funny interactions happening, you know between like more left leaning people
and right leaning people. This person is like soyjacking about doing is fat phobic?
Exactly. Well. The part of the reason, so another reason why
we would speculate that Herbert really new insides of what the system was up to
and what the real philosophy of the elites is is that a big part of
the Dune world is eugenics. And so the Benny Jesuit's Sisterhood, they're not
just seeding stories. They're actually manipulating bloodlines for hundreds of years to try to
produce the uberminche. And their idea is that we're not so much worried about
emperors and barons and people that come and go. If we can control this
super being and their ideas they can't, they're going to be able to control
the super being. Then they'll be the ultimate power behind the throne in the
universe. That's why the Reverend brother says, you don't understand, like the
quizas Hodak, the greatest power the universe has ever seen. We want to
control that. But I thought you might find this interesting. I read it
when I did my so this is this is just a little section in Doing
Messiah that you'll you'll find relevant to what you're talking about. And in every
chapter of Doune, they're usually citing some weird book in the universe of Doune,
like they're citing Pristas, airlines Diaries or something. This is from the
book called the Orgy. As a tool of state craft, Yeah says the
most dangerous game in the universe is to govern from an oracular base. We
do not consider ourselves wise enough and brave enough to play that game. The
measure detailed here for the regulation in lesser matters are as near as we dare
venture to the brink of government for our purposes, we borrow the definition from
the Vinny Jesuits. We consider the various worlds of the universe as gene pools,
sources of teachings and of teachers, sources of what is possible. Our
goal is not to rule, but the into these gene pools to learn and
to free ourselves from all restraints imposed by the dependency of government. So that's
something that the Steersman's Guild, which would be the Spacing Guild. That's one
of their books, and they're at the book is just titled Orgy as a
tool of take wraps. So the whole all of it's full of like you
know, Herbert having knowledge of like Epstein type stuff, right, yeah,
yeah, that's that's fascinating, And you know that's obviously it's a PG thirteen
movie. Thankfully, there's no there's no like crazy gratuitous sex scenes or anything
in it, which I did appreciate about Dune. It's like it's not you
know, it's not super raunchy. The violence is it was well done in
both of the films, tasteful, tasteful amount of violence. But there is
the the Benicester woman. She seduces Fade what's his name, Fade, Rotha
Roth Fade rothschild, fade fade, Rotha. She seduces him and then I
think the dialogue could have been improved a little bit. Afterwards she goes back
to her Benjesterrit's and says, well, he can be controlled through sexuality,
through humiliation, and through uh you know, he power. So you know,
I mean that you only have so much time in the film to flesh
this stuff out. But it wasn't it wasn't that bad. It was well
done. The way they showed it, the way that they they hinted at
the wider broader scope of why it's women that are the ben agesterate is because
these men who are in power are often have a weakness for women. So
yeah, which is something absolutely really when we when we speak of like the
traditional word witch, it meant a weird woman w y r D who was
a cunning woman. Right. So the idea is that the ultimate witch is
the is the handler, because it's the most cunning person. It's the person
that you'll you'll never outsmart in this game of you know, intrigue. And
so the Reverend Mother is really sort of the intended to be that we think
the power behind the throne, and that's why it's not a feminist story because
Paul ends up being the one who goes where the women can't go. The
women can't go in the ritual where Paul goes, and that's why when he
comes back, they fear him. And when she tries to use the voice
on Paul at the end, he says silence and she jumps back. Right.
It's very reminiscent of like when Christ says I am and the soldiers fall
back. Well, it's interesting too, I mean, because they spent thousands
of years on their little eugenics project trying to bring about what do they call
it, the quiz atch hacker the universe is super being, the q queiss
Hadarak. So they're trying to create their uber mensch who is going to you
know, see perfectly in past, present, and future and be able to
guide the known universe basically but under their control. So they they want to
be the puppet masters behind him. And uh so they spend how it was
like thousand years with this breeding program to bring about the perfect candidate for this,
but he ends up not being under their control, so they lose control
of him ultimately, and so there is this, you know, there's the
cynicism about religion. There's the cynicism that Frank Herbert seemed to have, But
then there also is seemingly a real aspect of the supernatural at play in the
universe, which I think is handled well tastefully without being corny. There really
there seems to be something there, at least in the way that the films
portrayed it right, with certain lines of dialogue hinting at well, maybe he
is the lisan Al Gayib and maybe the Benajesrit are not in total control,
because you've got Lady Jessica seeming to clash a little bit with the other reverend
mother, and she says something to the other reverend mother of like, well
you pick the wrong side, and she mocks her. She says, well,
you should have known after all this time, you should have known that
there are no sides, right, there are no sides here. But that
being said, they are Jessica seems to be pushing back a little bit and
clashing with what the Menagesits really want. The Benajesurits try to get rid of
the A Tredes' bloodline. They try to kill them all off. On hark
on what's it called on Aracus, so you know there would you say that
there is an aspect of that in the books where there might be something there
or is it you're supposed to think at the end of the books. No,
this is all just hogwash invented by some witches to control people and control
their minds. I'm guessing. And again because I don't know where the next
novels will go in terms of theism, Well, yeah, having read the
first two novels, what would you say, I'm just got I'm thinking that.
But I have read quite a bit on like, uh, literary theory,
you know, theories, and are now of the whole series, so
I kind of know where the series goes, but in a general sense,
but not the details. I think maybe there is this idea, so it's
a it's a it's a universe where there's evolution, there's genetic manipulation, there's
the idea of the possibility of evolving and mutating to perhaps godlike powers. So
it's not I would hesitate to say at this stage in the first two it's
not supernatural so far, except that we might have an irony where the uh,
the prophecies actually sort of manifest so we don't get the idea that it's
supernatural. In the first two books, we get the idea that there's these
It's almost like there's there's very there's powers that can be tapped into, but
they don't seem to be supernatural. They seem to be latent natural powers that
allow us to maybe ascend evolutionarily to some sort of quasi divine status. Okay,
So then the Benajester they take what's natural, they spin a supernatural veil
around the front of it, present it to the you know, the people.
But as I understand as the stories progress, there is towards the end
of all six stories this there's something about a confrontation with the beyond. It
gets really crazy, like the novels get really wild. So he takes it
in the direction of their possibly being some entity beyond. What that is,
it's unclear. He may not even explain it in the in the in the
novels, the doing nerds in the chat can probably explain it better than me.
But uh, I don't think it goes into the domino supernatural, except
perhaps towards the end. But we do get weirder and weirder things happening.
So maybe by doing six but I'd say from what I gleaned from the two
films, it seems like there is something, you know, there is a
real presence of something strange, possibly supernatural going on. Well, for example,
the the worms, they're called shai Elude. They see the freemen seem
to take the worms as like a manifestation of the power of God. And
with the worms seeming to respect Paul. Is that in the first one,
the scene where the worm comes and it's like it gleans Paul and there is
this moment where he seems to be the worms even seem to recognize Paul.
Well, that's because this is letting you know that they're going to Paul's descendant
will become a worm. That's how crazy this is. I mean this it's
just crazy, dude. Like the novel, I can't even when you read
it like it's it's even crazier because freaking zont Herbert crazy directions. I mean,
you're wondering, like, was Frank Herbert just like a super weird Spurg
of the nineteen sixties. He seems like a total spurg because it's it's also
like Lord of the Rings in that you know, you know, Tolkien was
such a Spurg that he creates his own language, and like like there's a
language of Mortor and he like he makes a real language. There's like he
makes a real language of l Like who makes elf languages? Spurg? I
mean, and and he does the same thing with like, oh, the
people of you know, Bene Talelax, they speak this language and it's it's
Luke Luke's look, you know, it's like there's a lot of x's and
z's and I mean, it's just just total Spurg stuff. And there's some
weird sex stuff that happens later on in the later novels. Does he get
explicit with it or does he? Is he tasteful? He seems like a
weird man. He's strange. I don't know what to say about about where
it goes, but I just think that it's just totally not like any other
sci fi and it has all of these weird illness that. I mean,
how many spy novels are sci fi? They're not very few. I mean
again, I don't read a lot of sci fi, but it's just not
You don't see science fiction stories written this well and dealing with such really profound
topics ideas geo politics, espionage, mind control, the occult to a degree,
Yeah, for sure, some of the occult. The cult is a
huge aspect of the film. It's I mean, it's a big thematic I
was, here's a good point on what you're saying. So in Dune it
does seem to border on supernatural. And maybe in Herbert's mind, maybe he's
agnostic, and so he kind of has it open an open question. But
like when it's just so fun to write it that way, where he couldn't
help himself with some of this stuff, where it just well, when Paul
undergoes this ritual, Okay, he he sees he talks about seeing the infinite,
and he talks about like seeing all the timelines, all the possible timelines.
I mean, this is a supernatural game, probably the closest to the
supernatural and that I can think. But because he pegs it to it's not
a you know, like in in the Orthodox tradition, you gain you know,
knowledge is gained through you know, the cleansing of the noose, right
so that you can have communion with God. It's not you know, there's
no shortcuts of you know, you just take a milligram of acid, then
you're gonna, but he he goes and he mega doses on the spice for
a long time, fries fries Fries balls on freaking space acid and gets all
this insight, but can't really control the visions. The visions are sometimes real,
sometimes he doesn't. He doesn't ought to interpret it. So he's getting
all these, you know, insights that are not really insights sometimes and then
he drinks the what do they call it, the water alife and ends up
taking it to another level where he's able to kind of whether they use the
word like prescience or something, He's able to kind of prescient lea to be
there and be present within these visions of the past, present and future.
But it's an imminentized gnostic way of achieving not so he consumes the he consumes
the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil, knows good and evil becomes
like God. So's it's kind of a Luciferian Promethean search for knowledge that Paul's
going through in a lot of ways. Yeah, I mean again, the
religion of the Fremen is a mix of indigenous paganism. They retain a lot
of that paganism in some of the traditions. I mean it's it's very elaborate
where you have the Southern fundamentalists and the northern you know, skeptics and that
kind of mirrors like Judah and in the time when Israel's divided between the ten
northern tribes and they're apostate, and then you have only the you know,
Judah in the south where the temple is as the Southern fundamentalists. So there's
there's parallels to like Israel and its history, and there's parallels to you know,
Mosaic and christ type themes where they want to stamp out the bloodline,
I mean, the the vinage, the bloodline. Yeah, they want to
stamp out the trades because if you remember, she says, we can't control
them, they're getting too uppity. So we want to erase house of trades.
That whole bloodline can't be controlled. We're going to try maybe fade Ralph
or some other options here is that's their mindset. So in that sense,
there's parallel to like Herod stamping out the you know, trying to stamp out
the bloodline. Fro tries to stamp out the Messianic bloodlines. A lot of
things borrow from the Bible, the desert springing to life. That's from Isaiah
prophecies of the Messianic era, right where Eden comes back to the desert.
So there's a there's a mix of indigenous paganism Islamic elements with a lot of
the terms of the Madhi, right. So uh, and then you've also
got Catholicism in their Orange Catholic Bible. All that mixes into this bizarre stew
It's funny that you don't mention the Orange I mean that would it would sound
so strange, the Orange Catholic Bible. I mean, he kind of blew
it with that name. He could have had something a little bit different,
but you didn't. They didn't have anything about that in the film. Yeah,
it's in the novel because the novel sort of drops you in the midst
of this universe that's had this long history of you know, humans expanding into
it. It's the year ten thousands, right, ten thousand one, So
humans have colonized the universe, the known universe. They're all over all the
planets, and there's there's the return of nobility. As you said, there's
been the Butler engine had where AI's banned. Well, see, they didn't
say that in the film either they I wish they would have They could have
done that in a few lines. They could have done that in a conversation
reference, how there is this but Larry and g Hod because you're kind of
as a viewer, you know me coming in not having read any of the
books. You see how they're fighting and they have these weird shield things.
Why aren't they just why don't you just shoot that guy? Right? You
think it's stuff like this, And that's actually that's actually answered in the but
Larry and question because supposedly, I guess the shields. I heard this.
I watched the like a review video, and apparently, and this sounds ridiculous.
This is kind of stupid. The shields. So Frank Herbert had these
magical shields that they wear, these tech shields that they wear, and it's
like a plasma shield, and uh, if you shoot it with a laser
gun, it's a it makes an atomic explosion, So nobody can use that
anymore. I thought that sounded absolutely ridiculous, But I guess as a plot
device it kind of works because the idea of chivalry, the sword play knife
exactly the way to reintroduce classic stuff, just like the nobility is still there,
right, so we got to do it like a medieval have it kind
of be like a medieval vibe to it, which is it works visually,
it's fantastic. I just wish they'd explained that in the films. Yeah,
I think that's why the slow baited the phrases the slow blade kind of trace
the shields, right, slow blade the shield Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
So the bullets that we have to like you know, engage in this hand
hand combat and like you know, slowly put your knife in or you just
had there's also these you know, kind of ancient traditions of what they call
con lee, which is where you you offer to settle vendettas in classic one
to one sword fighter warfare. So it's like a future that's science fiction and
there's spaceships and space travel and warp speeds or whatever, but there's all of
these medieval elements in that. Yeah, even like Victorian because when when to
the duel, you know, the idea of the dual. I feel like
in the Victorian age that was so popular. You even see in like nineteenth
century Dostoevsky and I take out a white glove and I slapped you and sure,
sure, but you know the character and the underground man in a Notes
from the Underground, He's obsessed with dueling, and it's this, yeah,
it's like this western import that made its way into the Russian elite from England
and France, and it was this romanticized, you know, macho thing back
then. The duel. I mean, it's very symbolically rich and works really
well. And you know, you have the elements of the past, the
present, in the future all there, and the imagery and the aesthetics of
Doune, which I think is why a lot of people, you know,
a lot of people on the like Twitter spectrum, because if you look at
Twitter, the arguments are hilarious. You know, people freaking out about no,
you guys, you can't like Paul. You're not supposed to like Paul.
Look at this video of dni Venuve saying why Paul's a bad guy,
and then these people on the right are like, no, he's you know,
I don't care. It's based. You know, there's like the character
what's his face, the dude from No Country from old Man Javier Bardem.
He has a line where he's I don't care what you believe I believe.
So a lot of the kind of more right wing Christian guys though, respond
with that meme, I don't care if you believe. I believe Paul is
the lisan Al Gaib And then the you know, the the leftists are mad,
They're like, no religion fake, It's all just fake. The Benijesterrad
invented it. So the conversation that's being had culturally about it really gives you
an interesting microscope into where we're at this hypegeist, which you know, any
piece of art, it's going to have multiple ways. It can be interpreted.
Different people are going to take it in different ways, and I think
that's where it does definitely works with Dune. Yeah, it's that golden path.
So I was I wanted to check myself on this to make sure I
was right. The golden path is how I interpret it, which is correct,
and how everyone else interprets it is absolutely wrong. Low IQ. So
some of the Dune nerds are saying humanity's future extinction is seen as guaranteed due
to the fact that humanity was all grouped under an imperium, the banner of
the Empire. This meant that every human be affected by the decisions made at
the highest level of that government. So a serious threat to the imperium meant
that a serious threat to the human race would ensue. The Golden Path sought
to diversify humanity across the universe to nullify the weakness of the empire. Paul
refused to follow this path, as he was essentially still a good person,
and spent his life trying to undo the myths unsuccessfully that he had caught,
that he had created in order to do the jihad or whatever. So but
then somebody says, oh, this is actually what Paul told himself. It's
a lot, but now I think that the storyline is that there is a
Golden Path, and that Paul chose the path that even though it had the
Jahad, was like the only one that that was was the salvation and human
race. And then somebody says, well, Herbert died before he finished the
novel, so we don't exactly know, but most people don't. I don't
think he knew what he was doing it. He was just making up as
he went. It seems. He wrote the first novel, people read it
in a certain way. He got annoyed with how people read it, wrote
dude, Messiah to got a retcon how people were seeing it. I mean,
there's and then every book after that, he's he's probably getting lost in
his own sauce a little bit because it's it's such a massive undertaking to create
this literary world such as this. I mean, you almost seem like you'd
go mad trying to write all this. It sounds like he kind of did
it. Here's another super nerd saying, so the Golden Path was there,
Yeah, this is what I thought to save humanity from a future existential threat,
and it says this is correct. Although Herbert didn't finish everything in the
series. In chapter House Done, there are two people that are quote called
they're casting the net. You never find out who exactly they are, but
they're an existential threat from the Golden Path that Paul chose. They are either
AI bots of the future I forgot AI makes a comeback. That's right in
the AI Bots of the future are the I think most people think that's the
existential threat, and it's the same threat that happened before the Butlerryn hot They're
gonna come back, and they think that AI is extinct, but somehow secretly
AI survived on some planet. I think it's the bennet a Lax that keep
the AI going or something. Is that the Space Guild, like the Space
these are the the weird, like they're like their own hermit race of people
that engage in the genetic manipulation. And even though AI is banned, I
think there's they're the ones that are like secretly still doing it. So in
Dune Messiah, they're the ones that create the the Duncan clone husk figure that's
a trap for Paul. So AI is supposed to be extinct. Somehow,
there was They were running back into the known universe from something the AI.
They never say what it is, but whatever, Paul and Lido the Second
saw the worm sun Leado took the direct action needed to put humanity for sure
onto the Golden Path. Paul was afraid. So apparently some of the visions
of all these these people are I can't imagine having this much of the lower
in my head all the time, this super nerd. So apparently some of
the reason that we see Paul freaking out in his visions like in the movie
too, is because he was super afraid of the price that would be paid
by choosing the Golden path, which because he knew billions are going to die
right, No, no, no, his freaking offspring going to be a
worm dude. Oh yeah, worm boy. I can't even I can't even
vision. How are they going to do that? That's there's no way.
Look, just leave it at two Films Messiah Venue. You look, the
artwork is awesome. If you look up the pictures of him, he looks.
He looks pretty wild, kind of like a long skinny job of the
hut. He's just gonna be like he's like Gumby, He's like gummy a
worm. Hey, I'm gonna say, what would you do if they make
Dune worm boy Dune and they just put Gumby in there? That would be
crazy. It's like Villas level of production. But it's just gummy dude.
I'm looking at I'm looking at some of these funny tweets and just people you
know, arguing about it, giving their takes that this one's I like this
one. Herbert didn't understand the underlying subtext of his own creation, which ironically
in a way mirrors the situation of his protagonist. Paul. Wow, that's
actually that's pretty insightful. I like that a lot this one. I don't
think you have to claim properties like doing his right wing. You can just
enjoy the sublime nature of a tit related liberal writing the most base shit imaginable,
like a fat boy on a diet sneaking a cookie at midnight. That's
a great take. That's like, some of these tweets are better reviews.
Then then you're gonna read on the credit. Look up Lido the Worm.
You got to see this guy though. All right, let's we'll pull the
worm. If you can show the crowd, they'd be funny too, because
if they make this, that's that's gonna be some wow stuff. Let's see.
Oh man, so that's the gold that's the golden path. Is Lido
the Worm? The Worm? All right, let's see I can pull this
up on screen. While I'm doing this, let me give a little reminder
to the body, to the audience, all the bigots on the nerds,
the chad nerds from Jay Dyer's channel, the biggots from over here. There
is a link in the description. You can drop a super chat if you
got questions, if you got anything to say, if you want to just
yell at me and Jay how we don't understand the depth of Frank Herbert's world
created here in Dune. If we totally missed it, and we we totally
missed the point that only you understand, maybe make sure to drop a super
chat via stream labs or via YouTube try to pull this up. I mean,
this is like, you know how, you know how some people treat
certain things like Star Wars as a religion, kind of like super like I'm
surprised that this isn't treated more a religion. But but I think it's so
obscure, so out there that actually takes a pretty high IQ person to really
get into Doon. So maybe that person is a little super smart to think
of it as a religion. Perhaps, but or just maybe it's maybe maybe
we have it seeing the emergence of the Dune religion. Maybe maybe Frank Herbert
was actually writing at what he thought might be a future religion. I don't
know, so which which character in doing universe? Which character you j Baron
harkinin for sure? I'm I'm obviously perpetual stank face. Yeah, yeah,
she's the greatest character, resting smelly face. CHANI I'm warm boy. I
want to be a leader of the Second, the one, the Second Okay,
who are you interesting. I'm Jessica. Yeah, Jessica, that's my
wife's name. I know exactly. It's a pretty meta. I know,
some of these portrayals of war, we could get into like a a familials,
you know, war with Chase. You could kill Chase and then Chase
could possess you and you could be like two consciousnesses in one. People keep
talking about some Chase person that I'm supposed to know. I don't understand how
like who this person is. There's apparently somebody on the internet tries to act
like he's related to me or something. His name might be Chased. I
don't know. There's a troll LARPer running around Stalker. Yeah, no,
I'm clearly what's his face? Roth Fade Fade, rothschild fail, I'm the
I'm the Space Bankers. I love in the Guild David Lynch when I love
how Sting plays Fade. He's just a totally ridiculous person. I have to
watch it. You got to watch the rest of it because they actually imply
that the Baron might be like touching. I mean, it doesn't show it,
but it's like they have this weird kind of like like lusty sort of
creepy. Well, he's the baron in the books, right is supposedly he's
a he's a he's a did he's a diddy? You can use diddy now
for for dealers. Did. Yeah, it was in the They have the
Hardons install heart plugs because they're kind of psycho and they actually enjoy killing so
that they'll pull this plug out and your your blood just strains out. This
is I mean, they're so evil. The Herkans are so evil. They're
also cannibalistic, that's the thing. Yeah, they're cannibals. They're fat,
they have an ugly aesthetic. They're aesthetically disgusting. They're like translucent, they
have no skin tone. But some people were making the critique of well,
of course, you know, the the bad guys in the film are all
like the white guys, and then the diverse people beat up the white guys.
But I mean, Herbert wrote the book, right, didn't he just
did he describe the Hearkening as being h like translucent, super pale buy no
freaks or how question I remember. I can't remember they had the red hair
or not, or who exactly who they're supposed to be, but they definitely
come off as like, I don't know, some kind of I mean,
they're definitely aberrant, and they're not just like pedo cannibal degenerates. They're actually
really brutal to the fremen. And so when house the Trades takes over them,
the freemen are blown away because the the Trade's family is like like they're
they engage in alms giving, like they're they're known as a righteous family.
So I like the fact that, I mean, if you read the story,
like the Trades are a righteous household or righteous family, they they do
virtuous things. Har Conans are absolutely discussing and degenerate, and it's antipedo,
so it's anti so it's anti fat, it's anti anti glutton, anti pudo.
And they're also well it's the boy they're boy diddlers or whatever, right,
I mean, they're like little boys the o the hearken in. So
they're just total degenerate, completely evil scum. The treadees righteous alms giving,
treat people well, learn their cultures, aren't just there purely to exploit them,
want a symbiotic relationship. So I think I think it's it's cool how
he you know, he didn't make it to where they're just all they're all
colonists, like or you know, get rid of the evil colonists, like
the colonial mean coming to Paul's dad's leader of the Just. He's known as
leader of the Just. They wanted to and if you remember, Christopher Walkin
says, your dad was a weak man, right, He's like, your
dad was weak and that's why he needed to go. He was too good
for this kind of life that's kind of imperial politics. So I remember the
line that lead of the Just he says to Paul in the first film.
He says, a good leader, a good leader doesn't want power, but
I forget what the exact line is. A good leader doesn't want to lead,
but he does it because he has to. Basically, it's kind of
like a take up your cross and lead, Paul. So there's there's so
much indicating that the Tredees are righteous. So it's kind of funny that Herbert
would just expect you to, you know, think, oh, no,
you know, it's so dangerous to have a charismatic leader, Like why is
it dangerous to have a charismatic leader? I guess he fleshes that out a
little bit later on because of Paul is you know, I guess the charismatic
leader can be wanting power for the wrong reasons. Paul perhaps having vengeance on
his mind is you know, is not a virtuous trait. But it seems
almost like Frank Herbert and his writing these novels and writing the story, he
almost had a hang up about power itself, monarchy itself, even though it
seems to be the natural order of the universe, even in the Dune universe,
monarchy is natural. But it's like, well, even if a good
guy comes to the throne, then it's still bad. It's just like the
nature of power itself can corrupt or inevitably does corrupt. I guess he's trying
to say, well, so the right the first warning is that if we
think about the existing universe with Emperor Christopher Walkin, it's not that bad.
There's stability, I mean, there's degenerously the Harcone is, but like it's
not a universal Johava with a bunch of death. Hall's revolution is debatable at
first, and I think you're probably right that because he's writing during the Cold
War, you know, the jfk assassination happened. There's a great essay in
dom Aside at the beginning about historical setting when he wrote the sequel, and
it's kind of a warning about the temptations of too much power. But I
think you're right that as the novels progress, it's almost like he thinks,
what I mean, we're going to get back to If we're going to have
an empire piece, it can't just be a mere man. It's got to
be something more than man. And so it ends up being a warm man,
hybrid, something more than and beyond man. Because man isn't ever going
to achieve this, this utopia. So it's got to be something more than
man. And so even though it does occur in the story, and Paul
doesn't end up a villain, he's a Paul's a tragic hero, I guess
is the way to put it. Like, he's a So tell you talking
to the Chase altar in your head. That's oh, you know, I
muted so the audience couldn't hear that, but you could hear me yelling at
my dog. That's that's what I call my alter, called the Chase alter
in your head. That's the thing is like when I when I when I
took I took so much of this spice, milange, and I got an
altar. That is. Her name is Dahlia, and she's a dog.
She sometimes barks at nothing, a great dog, but she just once she
starts barking, her echo goes against like she barks, and her freaking echo
hits the mountains and comes back at her, and she hears the bark come
back at her, and then she just starts looping. So it's she's caught
a loop right now, barking at her own age. That's bark's level.
We got dog altars in your head. That's that's that's right. Dogs are
funny, man. She'll bark at her own she'll bark at her own looping
echo. And then also when she was a puppy, she tried to like
fight her uh, her reflection in the mirror when she first saw it,
growling at it and barking at it. And you're engaging and basically Jose Dolgato
level of mind control and coult operations on your dog to brainwash it. Have
a halter. That's crazy. Yeah. The Bena ben a dog Ben a
Jesuit dog. Handled Sorry about that. No, that seemed rude because I
thought, I uh, I thought I muted it so you couldn't hear it.
But it was just the Someone says Jay doesn't Oh yeah, j probably
don't even like dogs. He doesn't have dogs. I have really, you
know, pretty bad allergies, so I don't and we travel quite a bit
so cats. I'm super allergic cats, can't stand them. I am too,
but even dogs kind of bug me. So yeah, I wouldn't mind
having at It's just kind of it's difficult to you travel a lot having a
petch kind of heart you have, like you have your people, you have
the help. I don't allow them to have a dog because it would be
detracting from their focus on me. No, what I'm saying, Yeah,
what I'm saying is like they're you know, they're probably a better pet.
Did you ever watch the Teal Swan documentary where she actually says that. Nope,
She's like, I don't want any of my inner circle to actually have
children, because how are they going to focus on me if the have children.
She's not joking, dude, she's a nutcase. Man. Can you
believe that? That's it? She actually says that in the documentary, and
then she's mad that people are mad at her as she's portrayed in the documentary.
It's like, did you're a psycho? What are you talking about?
You know, there's a new cult documentary that I love has won, the
Cult of the Mother God. Have you seen this? Oh? I have
watched multiple things on her. I have not seen that. But another great
thing on her to watch is her Doctor Phil episode is pretty wild. Okay,
yeah, I was thinking maybe we could we can analyze that one.
Oh yeah, I think there's three episodes so far. I think, Yeah,
did you see do you remember that blonde psychologist girl that I interviewed on
Colts maybe a year ago? Okay, yeah, we discussed some Mother God
in that, so we covered it for maybe a fifteen twenty minutes. It'd
be great to do a whole deep dive on it. But yeah, the
doctor Phil episode is great because it's classic Doctor Phil where he's just like,
now, is it possible? Could you conceive the possibility that maybe you aren't
God? Who do we need Doctor Phil as the that's who should have been
the Emperor? Right? Christopher Walking? Dude, Christopher Walking. It was
kind of a weird choice. That was the only criticism I have of the
whole movie is. I mean, her her sassy girl boss stuff is a
little annoying. But yeah, like Christopher Walking is such an an absurd,
weirdo guy character all the time, Like he doesn't come off as a cunning
you know, like aged sage emperor. But now so we need you need
Jay to do Doctor Phil as the Emperor delegating in between House of Trades and
House Hearkening. Well we need to talk about who this more deb is?
Okay? Do you is it possible, Paul that maybe you're not the lizon
O guy. Do you think that maybe, maybe, just just maybe you
took a little too much of the spies Paul? Do you think you may
be the spy's habit is getting in between your relationship with your grandfather the hearkening,
Perhaps some rehabilitation could could bring about a better relationship in the known universe.
About Deb what he does all the time is like every time he's talking
to the craziest person. I watched like twenty of the Best Doctor Phil,
where it's always the craziest person you could think of. He I was actually
a pretty good approach to this because he says, oh, look, you
believe you're gone but also there might be other explanations for what you believe.
But could it be? Is it? He'll always ask him, is it
possible that there's another explanation? And it's maybe the drugs you took? Right?
Is it possible that you don't see the future but you see in deluded
space, acid visions in your stupid deluded head, MALDUI, do you think
that maybe possible? And if they say no, and then he'll say why
not? Why is that not, Paul? And then they'll say some crazy
thing, and then you know, then he can determine whether they're reasonable.
That tells him whether they have any reasoning at all, I think is why
he does that. But what about doctor Phil? Doctor Phil is really the
actual head of the Benigesa, and he just plays kind of dumb, but
he's really he's like the master manipulat. You know, you want to hear
something funny about darker Phil. I forget who we were with, uh,
somebody who was had been I can't remember for somebody who to makeup or something
I did have makeup done. I don't know if you know this, but
when I yeah before the stream no, no, before I went on O
A N. When we went to l A. I literally actually did have
my makeup done so nice. That's because that's a joke we make. We
make this joke all the time, legit. Oh man, you like I
thought you would think it's funny that I'll never be on your level. Now
like you've you've actually you've gone meta and you actually got your makeup picture from
the makeup room in a n where I was like, Tristan, you understand,
like I literally do have a makeup You have to frame you with the
makeup on like behind you and then and you could have it like on your
whiteboard. You can just you know, remind me every once in awhile like
Tristan never had this, never will you will never have your make make sure
that you never enter this industry. Blackballed in fact, everyone you know,
Jay's just going around l A just like badmouth like people like who are you
even talking about? Who is this from the makeup workers, Like you're only
back black belt from having makeup, like you can go on any show.
It's just they'll never do makeup for you. Yeah, I'm completely black balled
from from the makeup union, the labor makeup union or union. Yeah,
that was that to do with doctor Phil. Doctor They're like, we're gonna
use the doctor Philoy used to work with doctor Phil. I'm trying to remember
who it was, so I apologize if you're watching it and I'm not giving
you credit. I just can't remember. But they had this great story that
they were traveling with doctor Phil a couple of years ago and they were maybe
doing security for him or something, but they couldn't believe that wherever doctor Phil
would go, dude, everybody's moms and and aunts, like they like crowd
him, like he's Boomer Elvis. Dude. Like the women go crazy and
will like fight to like touch doctor Phil. Isn't that crazy? It's like
Oprah, you know daytime TV. It's all the women. I believe it.
It's not because it's not because he's attractive or something. It's just because
they watched that daytime TV. What time is he on? Yeah, And
they're like they're like entrance, yeah, he he They spend more time with
him than they do with their husband. There you go, like they know
him, he knows them. He's there. They were talking about how like
they have to protect him from like the like the the ants and the boomer
women that were bum rush him day, just getting bum rushed by wine Ants
trying to catch a and and he doesn't have that many hairs to pluck off,
you know, he's trying to get one hair from his head to make
a little little doll out of him. So he's like the Elvis of like
wine Ants exactly. It was wild. I didn't realize that the guy that
played uh, Fade Roth played Elvis. Yeah, Austin Butler or whatever.
He was so good. It's Fade Roth. And then I I like watch
him videos on YouTube and he yeah, he just looks completely different and uh,
outside of the film, Yeah, he did really good. The only
thing I thought was a little weird was that he was talking exactly like the
baron which it was. It was a little odd, but the cultural thing
they talk like this, that was good. That's not just like, yeah,
makeupsuge, may your makeup smudge and be faulty, may makeup smudge,
mayo makeup smudge and run with your sweat beats. Well, doctor come over,
hereat doctor Phil tonight he's gonna be like, well, I can tell
you Tristan will never have makeup on my show. Wait, look he will.
He gets his head plucked every day by multiple Guatemalan Wait, that's just
that's indulgent. That's too indulgent. Uh, you gotta watch the Mother Okay,
now you have to watch the Mother God. Uh, doctor Phillips,
I'll find it for you. That's great, I'll find it. Yeah,
I'll watch that. Shoot that over. We got some super chats over here
from the biggots and the nerds. What some guys techmographics at nineteen ninety nine
through super chat, thank you so much, says richies are not forbidden,
but the pride of them is riches. Not he spelled at richies, but
that's probably an auto spelled riches are not forbidden? Is this the Proverbs of
one Deep? It's actually Saint John Chris. Riches are not forbidden, but
the pride of them is. Yeah, Greg, I think there's a reference
to the Desert Fathers in Messiah. Oh that's interesting. Yeah. I think
it's because Paul is going to end up having to go and be obi Wan
as a hermit. And I think there's a reference at the back to the
Desert Fathers. Yeah, Greg donated ten bucks. Didn't even say anything,
Thank you, Greg. That was via stream Labs Maximus Pike, Canadian five
dollars through super Chat, says straight Fire. Dave Gamillionaier four nine nine through
super Chat, Thank you very much, didn't you say anything? Rybranium donated
five bucks says worm Boy twenty twenty four. It's gonna be huge. We're
gonna make a recorts great again. Jimmy Grave, creez Cepi, Joeb Joe
basically Harkonan. I don't know what do you do. Who's gonna make the
rags great? Gonna be great again? That's great. William Kreen donated fifteen
bucks says, does a setting of space or space travel versus Earth based movies
usually go along with God being impersonal or separated from creation. That's interesting.
I mean with Dune God, I know that with Dune there seems to be
a belief, a general belief in God. Like Jay said at the beginning,
it's kind of a syncretistic, perennialist vision of God. I'd say from
the first, in the first two films, i'd say God, there is
a God that's present, but it's more of a possibly the maker, the
maker of all. You know, these kinds of phrases, the maker,
the clock, like the great clockmaker who just made the universe, and man
can kind of just try to ascend if they find enough spice or something to
be deistic. I'm not sure, but actually it seems like the freemen.
The Freemen are more like like they think there's prophecies and there's divine miracles.
You remember, because because Silgar keeps saying so miracle, right, So yeah,
they believe in the miraculous, so yeah, yeah, But but there
are all these different takes on what God is. The Benajesrits seem to look
at the universe as a giant tool, uh to try to use to ascend
to more power over the known universe. So that would be kind of almost
an you know, gnostic possibly with a deist God at the end of the
at the top of the ladder, I should mention that actually there's a in
the Dune universe. There's actually a plethora of religious traditions. I don't know
if we're ever supposed to think one of them is true. But in the
future there's an apologist for Socratic Christianity, so they actually gets an apologetics.
This is how crazy it is, Like he'll reference another desert fatherers and apologetics.
It's weird, but there's some sort of form of Christianity that's I think
different than the Orange Calic Bible, which is called Socratic Christianity. And so
there's citations from this book of the the Socratic Apologist. Anyway, Wild Wild
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dollars through super chat on YouTube, says, have all have you all heard
about this new syop group that's the first to use four letters that's backed by
the elites. Oh man, it's called the icup. Ah whoa what bro
I've been gotten with that one since Uh it's the I cup Icup. That's
like that's fourth grade, man, that's uh back back when the power range.
Oh my god, I need to hear a D's nuts joke looking there
somewhere like remember D's nuts. No, Jay, Oh, come on,
now, what are you even talking about? I am sending you here.
There is a there's two different versions of a fan edit. This is like
Megan Nerd tier stuff. Are you ready for it? I'm ready? Are
ready? So, because there were so many complaints about the David Lynch version,
one of the problems was that he didn't have final cut, and so
the studio made them cut his version down to under two hours for the theatrical
release, which he felt like, under two hours, I think that I
think the theatrical release is right around or something like that. So that's crazy
because he got like three hours for each film, he's got six. Well,
that's crazy exactly. But so David Lynch was mad because he felt like
nobody would understand the story, and of course a lot of the audience at
the time in the eighties felt like, no, he can understand what was
going on, and they didn't. Even with the Princess Erilon narration, they
still couldn't get it. So some super Nerds put together what they call the
Dune fan Edit. It's an almost three hour version with all the deleted scenes,
and there's another there's a separate version which has the storyboards that show the
butlery and hot So if you really want to nerd super nerd version, you
can get a torrent of the four hour Dune which has all of that.
Well, Jay say, we're Jay's We're gonna watch this right now. It's
going to be a nine hour stream. First we talk about Dune for two
hours, and then we're gonna so we're just gonna make Soyjack faces about the
nine hour version of So here is the three hour version for you, without
the storyboards, but there's also the four hourish version with the storybo So I'm
like a super David Lynch doom nerd. I had to go find the full
version. Man, would you would you say you like the Lynch version better
than the DENI believe the version not better. I mean it's it's obviously,
you know, so many levels of superior film with the production and the because
he has so much more time to tell so much more of the story.
There are elements of the David Lynch version that are not in the Dennis version
that I do like. So, DENI I'll never I'll never say it right
if I'm in an interview, if I'm talking to Dennis Denis, what's up
He's gonna say that, don't care? We wow, absolutely no respect for
the the greatest, greatest filmmaker you ever be. Some people do. Some
people love I mean I thought it were great, man, I thought some
of the better sci fi movies out there, for sure. But some people
are just like, this is the masterpiece of all masterpieces, the greatest films.
I would say they're masterpieces. I think he I'm impressed. I really
do feel like it's we haven't seen movies like this since Lord of the Rings
or something like that. I mean, well, the second one was just
visually, I mean even I think there were I think the storytelling was pretty
solid. Could have been a little bit better, just little details like well,
how come I didn't know about the butlerry and jihad and I had to
have some super nerd tell me about it. Little details like that could have
been improved. But overall the story wasn't engrossing. It was you left you
thinking different people have different takes on it and argue about it, which is
you know, really it's a sign of the sign of a good film.
And I mean, visually it was. I found myself sometimes getting lost in
the story of like like not even paying attention to what's going on because I'm
just looking at the cinematography, thinking, oh wow, that's a crazy shot.
You know, how did they do this? So I for the second
film. I've only seen both of them one time, but yeah, I
definitely look forward to seeing the second one again. Yeah. I really would
like you to watch the Lynch first though, and contrast some of the elements,
and then you'll see too where I think Dennis included some of the spirit
of the lunch movie. Deny, Deny, Dennis. It's like a tick
anytime somebody says that you have to you're the Spurgey like super nerd thing you
pronounce his name. There's but there, there's like a an absolute but LERI
and Gihad. Is going to be necessary to remove all of these video essays
from these Dune Part two nerds who are just flipping out about how great the
movie is every time I open YouTube now, because I watched a few people,
a few of other people's like analysis era in summaries, and now all
I get is just recommendations of Dune Part two video essay. This changes everything.
Dune Part two sci fi will ever be the same it's every single suggestion
on YouTube now, so I'm about to do a but Lerry and Jihat and
all you video on videos. Anybody said they didn't like it, that isn't
I mean I say that. I saw one guy writing that he didn't think
it was that good, but pretty much everybody else is pretty pretty I have
a friend who told me on Twitter today that he's just like chiny ruined it
for me, and it was just you know, he he didn't like it.
He thought it was too much you know space. He said he thought
there was too much modern political uh stuff underlying it. But I don't know,
I kind of disagree. I think Chawnny Chahanny wasn't an awful character.
I mean, she wasn't She wasn't like screaming the rest of it doesn't.
I mean most a lot of I mean, it's pretty pretty faithful to the
book. They just deviate with the chaw character. That's it. Yeah,
It's like when you when you see her for what she is. She's supposed
to be the character that the audience UH identifies with. And I thought it
was kind of funny that at the end, the character that's supposed to represent
the audience is left alone, crying, rage, crying, trying to summon
a worm to hang out alone on her. Well, I'll give you a
one little nugget too. There's another exactly, there's another reason why he might
have done that with her character is that in this in the in Doing Messiah,
what's going to happen is, without giving it too much away, there's
going to be a an intrigue between Eralon and Chawny where at the behest of
the Reverend Mother, it's all about who will have Paul's offspring. Ah,
yeah, he's got a sire a child for the Nagel. So the Reverend
Mother gets Princess Erolon to give Chawni secretly in an mortivation so she doesn't give
birth, and the hope is that Erolin will get pregnant and then the Benny
Jesuit the Reverend Mother be able to control Paul's offspring. But Paul eventually figures
this plot out, and uh yeah, so so Chawny. So Chawnie has
to play this role of getting screwed over, not because of Paul. Paul
doesn't really do it, but Paul figure out what's going on. And Heroine
is also not a villain. She doesn't end up being well, and you
know, I forgot to mention this too. This is another fascinating thing about
this film is that it's openly anti infanticide, right, I mean, it's
you know, there, life starts at conception in the Dune universe. Apparently
you got the fetus is one of the main characters. Now, of course,
the fetus I guess later becomes evil and she you know, she goes
nuts. But yeah, the Aliyah and and and Jessica. This is a
it's a very pro life film in a lot of ways. Hierarchy is inevitable.
Monarchy is natural. Everybody craves a king and a cares madic leader.
It seems like a natural thing for people in the New World to uh crazy,
to look for a messiah. So there you are. There certain aspects
of it that, you know, you really can't get away from the Christian
worldview and from the truth of even in fiction. So yeah, man,
this was this was a fun one. I'm glad you got me to watch
to watch them, I wouldn't have I didn't even realize Dune Part one came
out. It just kind of skipped me. It was. It was off
my radar and I'm glad. I'm glad you got me to watch these men.
Yeah, well, do watch the David lunch one sometimes I want to
see. Yeah, I'm gonna get the full version with all the all the
deleted scenes and everything, but I I really want to watch. I want
to rewatch part one of this and then once part two comes out on like
a Blu ray or something, I'd like to thanks for having me. It
was a great chat. I had a lot of fun. I was able
to nerd out on doing here. Yeah. Yeah, it was fun man
well worth well worth the wait for sure. I had to wait a little
bit to see the second one. Let me make sure we got all the
super chats red here ah that I saw one more just pop through Big Bosses.
I hear. It's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm and flap Jaws
space with the tuning fork does a roblink on Hara Kiki Rock I need Scissors
sixty one. Okay, that's like total schitzo. There's like a bunch of
references there to something I hear. It's amazing. It's like a dune like
master PhD and like he's talking about like stuff I think this guy took too
much of that spice millage. I think he's I think he's me the spice
millanage. I hear. It's amazing when the famous purple stuffed worm and flap
jaws space with the tuning fork does a roblink on Hara Kiri Rock I need
scissors sixty one. Well, maybe he's got a PhD in this. I
mean, yeah, there's probably got twenty references that I have no idea.
So here's the whole thing. So use the spoon you must. I mean
the aesthetics of that too. I mean, they got a nice aesthetic on
the covers there. But I think I think the film, I think overall,
Denny the New the aesthetics of the film really carried it, you know.
I mean, he he did a great job with this one. I
look forward to seeing what he does next. I hope. I kind of
wish you would just leave it where it is, with Chatty soyjacking, crying,
rage, crying at the worm at the end. Everyone else, Yeah,
the atheist is left crying alone, hurt, rage, raging at the
world, where everyone else goes to have their awesome jihad and build their green
planet. But I'm sure. I'm sure they'll I'm sure he'll wrap it up
differently than that. But uh yeah, Jay, maybe next week can do
uh, we can do some of these some of these cults. That was
it the Mother God cult? That'll be funny. Yeah, we'll do true
detective and cults. Next. Wait, Big Boss, it's he's there's a
metal Metal Gear solid references all right? You got me on that one.
Man. I didn't get to play the original metal Gear solids. I didn't
have a PS two. Man, I was, I was a I was
a pole boy. I got a I got an N sixty four later,
but I didn't I didn't have that the PS two. Big Boss apparently big
but Big Boss also maybe you had a little too much of that spicemall lunch
tonight. This is the novel that will be fitting for you. Heretics of
dude. I'm sure a lot of the Dune fans are gonna call me a
total You're a total heretic Nube. You know, you're a duntic exactly.
It's like if you don't get the PhD NERD level Dune references, right,
you become a heretic of Dane. Yeah, one of my favorite parts of
doing this review that was just reading some of the tweets of like some of
the some of these tweets were hilarious. Like one of them has the the
bell curve that I the IQ bell curve and at the bottom is here,
I'll pull this one. Let's see if I can pull this one up.
The bottom is the bottom of the bell curve, the point one two.
Let's find this the low IQ. Yeah, low iq. I'm sure you
saw. It's like the low IQ is Paul is the Lassan al Gayib.
The middle of the bell curve, the one hundred IQ is no, Paul
is just a man. And the point of the story is the danger of
prophecy. And then the you know one thirty to one forty five and up
IQ is Paul is the Lassan al Gayib. That's what I was arguing.
Yeah, I got it. That's it. I'm on that right side.
That's what I was saying. That's right. Can you send me that meme?
I actually I want that. Yeah, this meme is awesome. I'm
an actually cool one. Yeah, I'll send it to you on Twitter.
That's I'm not going to pull it up because I got to create a new
scene in obs. I want to pull it up. But anyways, oh
you big, It's in the chat. Chad nerds in the chat, make
sure share the video. Like the video, give yourself some of that spice
milange from chalk dot com. Use that coupon code Big five to three Life
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and the shil Agit. I take those every day. So everybody watching comment
down below tell us how wrong we were, how Paul's not this leisan al
gayib or why he is the Lisanol gayib or why doctor Phil definitely should have
been and that you agree with us that doctor Phil is a list on a
guy you and should have played the Emperor. Yes, yeah, Bigge's stay
stay, stay away from them worms, and we'll see you guys next time.
All right, later, Doc,