1
00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200
You're listening to the Mind over Murder
podcast. My name is Bill Thomas.

2
00:00:07,759 --> 00:00:12,039
I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now

3
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000
trying to use my experience as the
brother of a murder victim to help other

4
00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239
victims of violent crime. I'm working
on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway

5
00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,719
murders and I'm the co administrator of
the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with

6
00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,039
Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin
Dilley. I'm a writer, a researcher,

7
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,799
a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media

8
00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,840
manager and co administrator for the Colonial
Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in

9
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:50,240
crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to
Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley

10
00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:54,479
and I'm Bill Thomas, and we're
joined today by Joe jack Alone for We're

11
00:00:54,520 --> 00:00:59,119
committing officer of the Cold Case Squad
in the New York Police Department and author

12
00:00:59,159 --> 00:01:03,320
of the Cold Case Handbook. Joe. Thank you for joining us today.

13
00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:06,599
Thanks for having me, guys.
Joe. We're so excited to have you.

14
00:01:06,719 --> 00:01:11,719
We've been talking about having you on
for what seemed like months and now

15
00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,000
we feel like there's no time like
the present, So we really appreciate your

16
00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:19,079
taking the time. No problem.
So before we get into a discussion with

17
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:23,280
you on the Long Island serial killer
slash Go Go Beach killer, however we're

18
00:01:23,439 --> 00:01:26,079
referring to him these days as well
as talking about your new books, start

19
00:01:26,079 --> 00:01:30,159
by telling us about your background with
the NYPD. Okay, I got on

20
00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:34,519
in New York City Please Department in
nineteen ninety two. I got promoted a

21
00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:40,079
sergeant relatively quick in nineteen ninety nine, and I worked in I Wor started

22
00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,400
off with the Bronx, and I
went to Brooklyn there got promoted, and

23
00:01:42,439 --> 00:01:47,000
I ended up into the neck of
Squad one and pre Sing and Queens,

24
00:01:47,079 --> 00:01:51,400
and then eventually worked my way into
the Cold Case Squad and the Bronx.

25
00:01:51,519 --> 00:01:53,319
And yeah, I know it was
a good career. I'll be out.

26
00:01:53,599 --> 00:01:57,599
I think it'll be eleven years this
October, so it's it's gone by quick.

27
00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:02,920
Most police officers serve for what twenty
years? Is that a fairly typical

28
00:02:02,959 --> 00:02:07,599
career that's changed now. So when
my group got in, there was still

29
00:02:07,599 --> 00:02:09,520
twenty years. Now I believe it's
today have to do twenty five before they

30
00:02:09,520 --> 00:02:14,159
can leave. Wow, would you
have stayed longer? If you could have,

31
00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:16,439
I would have stayed longer. But
like everything else, the boss makes

32
00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:22,280
or breaks your job. And got
tired of my boss. So it became

33
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:24,599
one of those things where, just
like a lot of other people, it's

34
00:02:24,639 --> 00:02:29,479
just the boss makes or breaks things, and after a while you just can't

35
00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:31,439
deal with it anymore. When you
have that opportunity to leave, you know,

36
00:02:31,759 --> 00:02:35,520
you just look for that door.
And then you moved into a whole

37
00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:40,719
second career now as a college professor
and consultant. What other hats do you

38
00:02:40,759 --> 00:02:44,800
wear? Yeah? Actually I was
teaching while I was still working, So

39
00:02:44,879 --> 00:02:47,360
I've been at John Jay now this
January will be eighteen years. So I

40
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,240
always kid my students and like you
guys are struggling to get your four years,

41
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:53,240
I'll yeah, this is my fourth
BA. You didn't want to think

42
00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,560
about it. So if I could
do four, you could do I could

43
00:02:57,560 --> 00:03:00,439
do four of these, you could
do one. It's just one of those

44
00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:04,280
things where teaching has been something I
wanted to do alsough I was able to

45
00:03:04,319 --> 00:03:07,039
do it, and at a college
level too, and at John Jay it's

46
00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:10,240
been pretty nice. A fellow teacher
here, So thank you very much for

47
00:03:10,280 --> 00:03:13,560
all that you do. I know
it's not easy. I do it with

48
00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,520
high schoolers, but I imagine college
is maybe a little bit more difficult.

49
00:03:16,039 --> 00:03:19,080
Yeah, it's like over the year, and it's like everything else, you

50
00:03:19,479 --> 00:03:22,360
get your own feel for things,
so when you first thought out, you

51
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,120
don't know exactly what to expect.
But at John Jay, you're dealing with

52
00:03:25,159 --> 00:03:29,159
most of the kids won't want to
do some sort of law enforcement work,

53
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:31,599
so it makes things easy. So
you're not trying to I'm not teaching the

54
00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,120
math. That's first of all.
I can't do math. But I'm not

55
00:03:35,159 --> 00:03:38,080
teaching the math and English and all
those other subjects they don't want to take.

56
00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:39,919
I'm teaching them the actual core courses
that they want to take. So

57
00:03:40,240 --> 00:03:44,759
my job is actually pretty easy because
they want to hear the stuff. They

58
00:03:44,759 --> 00:03:46,319
want to learn about this, then
they want to read and they want to

59
00:03:46,479 --> 00:03:52,479
get involved in it, so it's
been easier. Are the students that you're

60
00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:57,400
teaching at John Jay are they working
full time in law enforcement or are they

61
00:03:57,479 --> 00:04:00,599
transitioning to full time work. What's
a typical student if there is such a

62
00:04:00,639 --> 00:04:05,879
thing. The majority of the undergraduate
students are younger adults, so they're they're

63
00:04:05,919 --> 00:04:10,800
going through their college years nineteen twenty
twenty one. Many of them want to

64
00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:13,599
do some sort of law enforce a
work, whether it's at the local level,

65
00:04:13,639 --> 00:04:15,960
state or federal. We even have
a lot of people that want to

66
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,439
become lawyers. That's their fault,
but that's they want to do it.

67
00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,839
This fine, but I always kid
them, but it is what it is

68
00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,360
right for they want to do forensic
science, if they want to do all

69
00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:29,000
of those kinds of classes, that
that's the kind of things that we encourage.

70
00:04:29,319 --> 00:04:32,079
It's actually been a great program and
it makes a more well rounded student

71
00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:34,439
because you have, like I said
before, you have kids that want to

72
00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,839
do this. It's kite an interesting, but we do have older cops that

73
00:04:39,079 --> 00:04:41,720
they want to go back to school
and get their degree and finish it up.

74
00:04:42,079 --> 00:04:44,720
So you do have a couple of
them sprinkled through, but the overwhelming

75
00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,160
majority I just refer to him as
kids because well, those are much older

76
00:04:47,199 --> 00:04:51,000
than them, so I can afford
to call them that. But it's it's

77
00:04:51,079 --> 00:04:56,360
exciting in a way because I remember
when I was that young and anticipating working.

78
00:04:56,759 --> 00:04:59,360
And you can see many of them
that's ain't kind of look in the

79
00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,000
right. We know that you just
wrote a book. They're called case handbook,

80
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:04,319
and we're gonna ask you to talk
a little bit about that. But

81
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,480
I am curious. Are you're going
to use your own book in your college

82
00:05:08,519 --> 00:05:12,279
course? Because I can't think of
anything cooler really? Actually, yeah,

83
00:05:12,319 --> 00:05:15,800
this was my second book, right, So I actually I spent my pandemic

84
00:05:15,959 --> 00:05:17,959
months or whatever it was they spent
them writing, right. So this year

85
00:05:18,000 --> 00:05:20,959
I had the fourth edition of my
first book come out, The Criminal Investigator

86
00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:24,600
Function, A Guide for New Investigators. And I'll tell you a quick funny

87
00:05:24,639 --> 00:05:27,759
story. That's now when it's fourth
edition. When I was teaching the investigations

88
00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:30,720
class, I used to complain to
my fellow instructors. I used to say,

89
00:05:30,319 --> 00:05:33,360
every book that they have, it's
all kind of academic. There's really

90
00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,600
nothing to hear about how to solve
a case. And they got tired of

91
00:05:36,759 --> 00:05:40,120
hear me complains of one of the
funds. We just write your own damn

92
00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,120
book already. So I said,
all right, challenge acceptance. So I

93
00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,920
wrote it. It really took off. It's written in an easy format to

94
00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:48,600
read, right. The kids really
like it. There was a number of

95
00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,480
professors that have been using my textbook
not only in John Jay but across the

96
00:05:53,519 --> 00:05:58,079
country and for a number of years
New Jersey used it for their police promotional

97
00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:00,920
exams as part of the civil service
tests. Wow. So that was a

98
00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,480
kind of nice validation for me.
And then this book. I had actually

99
00:06:03,519 --> 00:06:06,759
started writing the during the pandemic.
The Cold Case Handbook is based on my

100
00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,959
experiences that I had and then watching
what's been happening in the public eye over

101
00:06:11,959 --> 00:06:15,959
the last few years in policing,
because I watched it very closely and knowing

102
00:06:15,000 --> 00:06:18,240
that the cold cases were going to
suffer even more during what I refer to

103
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:24,040
as the Great Resignation and retirement.
So we've had this issue for a long

104
00:06:24,079 --> 00:06:28,120
time about goal cases. It's getting
worse, not getting any better, and

105
00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,920
the problem that we deal with is
to it's going to become exponential. I

106
00:06:31,959 --> 00:06:34,959
wrote this book not only for the
cops, but I also wrote it for

107
00:06:35,639 --> 00:06:41,399
family members and for those true crime
advocates out there, because listen, the

108
00:06:41,439 --> 00:06:45,360
way things are going and policing,
the future really lies within the general public

109
00:06:45,519 --> 00:06:48,000
on trying to help close these cases
because there are not going to be enough

110
00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:51,879
cops at discontinues. So that was
one of our questions, Joe, is

111
00:06:51,879 --> 00:06:58,120
the Cold Case handbook your brand new
book? Is it something that civilians can

112
00:06:58,199 --> 00:07:01,879
read and understand? Absolutely, it's
not full of cops speak. It's of

113
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:05,920
course it's geared towards the law enforcement
executive generally because he or she is the

114
00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,639
one that really can make the changes
within the department, and I call for

115
00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,519
a lot of those changes. There's
a lot of talk about reform, and

116
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,160
I try to tell people that the
work reform is not synonymous with good.

117
00:07:15,639 --> 00:07:20,120
A lot of the reforms that people
have demanded and requested have not really been

118
00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:23,160
not only good for the police pubmit, but it hasn't been good for the

119
00:07:23,199 --> 00:07:28,160
general public. The reforms that I'm
calling for in this guide would help not

120
00:07:28,199 --> 00:07:31,800
only the police department, but help
the victims' families and changing mindsets. And

121
00:07:31,839 --> 00:07:36,360
one of those things is about being
more transparent with these cases in regards to

122
00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:41,360
when outsiders are trying to get access
to these things, instead of denying everything

123
00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:44,360
with a blanket. Where this case
is still under investigation, Come on,

124
00:07:44,399 --> 00:07:47,120
this case is thirty years old.
It's not under investigation. For any of

125
00:07:47,240 --> 00:07:49,879
us who want to buy your book, and I am one of them.

126
00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:54,000
Where do we go to find your
book? Can we find it at Barnes

127
00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:56,160
and Noble. Do we order it
through John Jay? Do we order it

128
00:07:56,199 --> 00:07:59,439
through you? Make you get it
through Amazon? But the publisher is Blue

129
00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:01,360
three sixty Media, And if you
buy it directly from Blue three sixty,

130
00:08:01,399 --> 00:08:05,120
they'll give you the electronic copy included
in it for another dollar or two,

131
00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,279
whatever it is. I've gotten a
lot of good feedback already from this book.

132
00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:11,839
I've had actually a couple of universities. At a matter of fact,

133
00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:16,360
I'm going out to Indiana to speak
at Purdue University about this. So,

134
00:08:16,279 --> 00:08:20,079
yeah, they're having their respecting Cold
Case Symposium. I'll be going out there

135
00:08:20,199 --> 00:08:26,199
in hamber so it's sooner rather than
later. And I'm heading to of course,

136
00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:28,639
I've got my fourth invite to Crime
Con. I'm going next week.

137
00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:35,720
I'm going down to the mid Atlantic
Cold Case Homicide Investigators Association. So I'm

138
00:08:35,759 --> 00:08:37,879
doing a lot of traveling with this, but I'm excited because I can actually

139
00:08:37,879 --> 00:08:41,799
get a chance to speak to the
people who are actually involved in doing this.

140
00:08:41,799 --> 00:08:46,320
Because the obstacles that you deal with
are the executives in the police departments

141
00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,080
and that's an end the organization,
but great feedback from your peers, and

142
00:08:50,159 --> 00:08:54,759
now people are adopting the book for
use in training classes, college programs and

143
00:08:54,759 --> 00:08:58,759
so on. Yes. Absolutely,
I've actually got a couple of people that

144
00:08:58,759 --> 00:09:01,960
I don't even know on LinkedIn most
I got the book. This is great.

145
00:09:01,000 --> 00:09:05,240
I'm going to start using it at
work. I had cold case investigators

146
00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:07,519
and all those other things that come
up. So when you get that kind

147
00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,200
of validation, you think that you
might have hit a good spot because you

148
00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,440
don't know how these things are going
to land, right, You don't know

149
00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,679
there are there aren't a lot of
textbooks out there about how to solve a

150
00:09:16,799 --> 00:09:20,159
cold case. There's a couple,
and I hate calling to the textbook because

151
00:09:20,799 --> 00:09:24,440
you get that word textbook and all
you just think of, oh my god,

152
00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:26,080
phonics and all those other kind of
things. It's really that's why I

153
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:30,240
want That's why I wanted to call
it a handbook. Right, it's easy

154
00:09:30,279 --> 00:09:33,360
to read. It's and it's easy
to read because I write and probably at

155
00:09:33,360 --> 00:09:37,039
a fifth to sixth grade level.
So everyone it's I tell people, listen,

156
00:09:37,279 --> 00:09:41,440
I'm no genius. If I could
do this, anybody can do it.

157
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,120
It's like everybody's an expert on something. It just so happened that this

158
00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:46,919
was my line of work, and
I decided to try to spin it into

159
00:09:46,960 --> 00:09:50,600
something that could actually help other people. If you think about it, everyone

160
00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:54,879
is an expert on something. I
don't care if it's parenting or whatever.

161
00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:58,159
You have something, you could write
your own book or e book, whatever

162
00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:01,679
you want to do and put it
different spin on things and give people thoughts

163
00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:05,159
and ideas that they might not have
thought about before. I said, Bill,

164
00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:09,279
I think we need to get to
work on our own books. This

165
00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,679
is true. And at the same
time, Joe, you are modest to

166
00:10:13,759 --> 00:10:18,679
a fault here. You're talking about
a thirty year career so far working in

167
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:22,440
the cold case field. So you
bring a lot of expertise to this.

168
00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:28,399
And I know you joke about your
writing proficiency or whatever, but you have

169
00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:35,440
the nuts and bolts on the street, shoe leather, whatever cliche we want

170
00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,919
to go with, experience that most
of the rest of us will never have.

171
00:10:39,519 --> 00:10:43,480
Yeah, the practical side of things
is always a good thing. And

172
00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:46,320
I've got myself in trouble in the
past on this, even in some of

173
00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:50,879
the news guests. Just for instance, I did an interview with one of

174
00:10:50,919 --> 00:10:54,960
the news agencies and asked me,
Brian Colberger is out there, he's studying

175
00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:56,279
all the stuff that makes them a
better criminal. I'm like, he's wearing

176
00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,600
an orange jumpsuit, right, probably
because yeah, So this is the kind

177
00:11:01,639 --> 00:11:03,720
of stuff that sometimes I get a
little too snarky on some of these things.

178
00:11:03,879 --> 00:11:07,960
Sometimes I try to make the host
laugh too. It's just it's been

179
00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:11,879
a fun ride, right, So
I get a chance to talk about things

180
00:11:11,960 --> 00:11:15,320
that I've accomplished and was able to
learn. Right, That's basically what it

181
00:11:15,360 --> 00:11:18,320
is. You learned about these things, and I got into the behavioral aspect

182
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:22,360
of why criminals do a lot of
things too, which helped me in my

183
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,399
career. And then working with the
detectives in the Cold Pie Squad, I

184
00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:28,159
mean we all there was only four
detectives in myself when I first got into

185
00:11:28,200 --> 00:11:31,960
the Bronx, and then shortly they're
after Wing got promoted. It was just

186
00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,000
me and three detectives and we had
thousands of open cases. We learned how

187
00:11:35,039 --> 00:11:39,200
to cherry pick things, we learned
how to look for those solubility factors.

188
00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,840
We learned how to do more with
less that we were qualified to do everything

189
00:11:41,840 --> 00:11:46,480
with nothing. It was one of
those battles that you learned from dealing with

190
00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,120
district attorneys about God, I can
tell your stories of fits like that,

191
00:11:50,399 --> 00:11:54,080
and I'm sure even when we get
to longal serial Killer, I'm sure there

192
00:11:54,200 --> 00:11:58,279
with fits that the police development had
with the district attorney, because that's just

193
00:11:58,320 --> 00:12:01,600
the way it is. The case
Long Island serial Killer is certainly the case

194
00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:05,519
on everybody's mind right at the moment. So I do want to go ahead

195
00:12:05,519 --> 00:12:09,840
and turn to that. When did
you first hear about the Long Island serial

196
00:12:09,919 --> 00:12:13,639
killer case? But as soon as
the news broke, just like everybody else,

197
00:12:13,759 --> 00:12:16,639
it happened practically in my backyard at
the time, I was living in

198
00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:20,320
Wantau, which is the gateway to
Jones Beach. And of course, just

199
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,559
like everybody else, when you have
something like this that starts to develop over

200
00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:30,360
a few days, I'm talking about
a major, major crime and in certain

201
00:12:30,399 --> 00:12:33,440
aspects, but Long Island has dealt
with a number of serial killers dating back

202
00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,279
to the seventies. I think I
counted about five. I don't know if

203
00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:39,080
it's if it's the salt water,
I don't know what it is over there,

204
00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:43,879
but I said it was from the
cold case aspect too, So I

205
00:12:43,919 --> 00:12:46,639
was really drawn to this case from
the beginning, and I learned a lot

206
00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:50,679
about the different aspects about what was
going on, and of course was able

207
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,879
to give my input in a lot
of media routlets about it too, which

208
00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:56,080
kept me sharp on it. So
when the time came the news finally broke

209
00:12:56,120 --> 00:13:01,240
twelve thirteen years later, I had
everything to be known, so it was

210
00:13:01,279 --> 00:13:05,960
good fit. So this happened in
your backyard, but that was not in

211
00:13:05,000 --> 00:13:09,840
an area where you were working as
an active duty police officer. You were

212
00:13:09,799 --> 00:13:16,399
a suburban Long Islander commuting into New
York City and working full time for the

213
00:13:16,480 --> 00:13:22,279
NYPD. The NYPD was were they
assisting in any way in those early stages

214
00:13:22,519 --> 00:13:26,480
of the what became known as the
Long Island serial killer case. Yes,

215
00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,519
they had just pulled the plug,
so to speak. So when this was

216
00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:33,240
finally started to break, But yeah, New York City was helping out because

217
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:39,120
they were actually tracking the phone calls
to Melissa Bartholomey's sister from the suspect who

218
00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,519
had her phone. So this was
an important aspect and it was a public

219
00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,759
information. It was out in the
public that this suspect was calling her,

220
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,440
so they had tracked him down to
Penn Station area where they lost him.

221
00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,080
They lost to signal and everything again
going way back when they added an idea

222
00:13:54,159 --> 00:13:58,759
that this person was in Manhattan near
Penn Station, which is on thirty fourth,

223
00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:05,000
and they know that the phone pinned
in Massapequa. You know they had

224
00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,360
they had that information way back when. Why do you think the original investigations

225
00:14:09,519 --> 00:14:15,600
stalled out when it did, Because
it is looking like they had all of

226
00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:20,200
the information that was needed to catch
this guy and have had it for quite

227
00:14:20,200 --> 00:14:24,279
a while. What do you think
caused the investigation to stall out so early?

228
00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:26,720
I know we only had a short
time on a podcast, but there

229
00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:30,799
are a lot of oh my god, when you look at the two heads

230
00:14:30,840 --> 00:14:33,960
of the three headed monster out in
Suffolk County, when you're dealing with Jamesburg

231
00:14:35,039 --> 00:14:37,399
the police chief, and Thomas Spota, the district attorney. Both of these

232
00:14:37,399 --> 00:14:41,440
men were committed to felonies, were
both were convicted, and they both went

233
00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,840
to jail. When you want to
find out why this case ended up in

234
00:14:43,879 --> 00:14:46,240
a drawer or the back of a
filing cabinet, and I don't think you

235
00:14:46,279 --> 00:14:50,519
have to look much further than those
two. One of the things that really

236
00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:56,039
disturbed me about the district Attorney than
Tom Spoda was his public fight within police

237
00:14:56,080 --> 00:14:58,679
commission of Richard Dormer. Now Richard
Dormer I thought made a mistake in the

238
00:14:58,679 --> 00:15:01,440
beginning when he said that we might
be dealing with a serial killer. That

239
00:15:01,519 --> 00:15:03,759
was a big mistake. Saying that. I was the first time I've ever

240
00:15:03,799 --> 00:15:07,600
heard of police commission to come out
and say those words. They would always

241
00:15:07,600 --> 00:15:09,159
come out and say we have a
pattern killer, or we have something that

242
00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:13,639
might that might be a pattern right, because using the word serial is that's

243
00:15:13,759 --> 00:15:16,279
oh my gut, that's like,
that's a no note because it just brings

244
00:15:16,279 --> 00:15:20,639
out every media agency in the entire
world and turns the heat up on you.

245
00:15:20,679 --> 00:15:24,879
And that's exactly what happened. The
fight between the two of them about

246
00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,519
how many killers were involved, I
thought was really damaging to the case.

247
00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,960
So the police Commissioner Dormer was saying
one and the district Attorney was saying more

248
00:15:33,000 --> 00:15:37,120
than one. And it was unusual
for the district attorney to even publicly say

249
00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:39,759
anything like that because the police are
the ones who are involved in that.

250
00:15:39,840 --> 00:15:41,759
And yes, I'm going to be
biased in certain things when it comes to

251
00:15:41,759 --> 00:15:45,480
the police. But the police are
the ones who were investigating this. They

252
00:15:45,519 --> 00:15:48,799
know a lot more than the district
attorney does. They haven't presented any case

253
00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:50,679
to him because they don't have a
case or a person to put in front

254
00:15:50,679 --> 00:15:54,840
of him. So I would lean
towards what the police were telling me initially

255
00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:58,960
about the case. I watched these
press conferences really carefully, and I always

256
00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:02,759
look for that cop speaking, and
I always look for certain words and certain

257
00:16:02,799 --> 00:16:06,039
phrases that they use or don't use, and then I try to interpret exactly

258
00:16:06,080 --> 00:16:07,440
what's going to happen, not to
to my own home. But I am

259
00:16:07,519 --> 00:16:11,759
correct most of the time. But
I was a firm believer in one killer

260
00:16:11,799 --> 00:16:15,000
from the beginning, and I'm sure
we'll get into that somewhere during the podcast.

261
00:16:15,759 --> 00:16:19,799
While we're there, let's stay there
for a second. Over the years,

262
00:16:21,039 --> 00:16:25,919
Joe different investigators, and there's been
a lot of coverage in the media,

263
00:16:26,360 --> 00:16:32,039
including some thoughtful coverage. It wasn't
all just sensational crazy stuff. There

264
00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:37,200
were some serious discussions about could Long
Island be dealing with two or maybe even

265
00:16:37,279 --> 00:16:45,600
more killers depositing these victims many former
sex workers along this kind of stretch of

266
00:16:45,679 --> 00:16:49,519
beach, and we had body parts
showing up in a number of different places.

267
00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,799
Now, the way you're talking today
in twenty twenty three, you sound

268
00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:59,679
like you're still thinking this could be
one individual killer. Yeah. I had

269
00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,559
this initially in my first interviews ten
years ago, and I'm sticking with it.

270
00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:06,640
And I'll tell you why. People
said he cut up bodies in the

271
00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:08,200
beginning, and these girls were all
found intact, and I said, okay,

272
00:17:08,240 --> 00:17:11,039
let's take a look at this for
a second. First of all,

273
00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,759
if you look back, the first
case was in nineteen ninety six, Peaches

274
00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:19,000
Hempstead Lake State Park. Her torso
was found in a bucket. The rest

275
00:17:19,039 --> 00:17:23,960
of her was found in gil Go
Peach in two eleven, and then also

276
00:17:25,039 --> 00:17:27,799
her baby that the baby dough initially
that was found out in gil Go.

277
00:17:29,279 --> 00:17:33,480
Now DNA come back to Peaches.
We just don't have a name for Peaches

278
00:17:33,599 --> 00:17:37,440
yet, but I believe that's coming
real suit because the FBI had put out

279
00:17:37,599 --> 00:17:41,839
a request for information regarding Peaches,
kinda like on the down low, but

280
00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:45,000
they did it through Twitter, which
was which was ironic, but a lot

281
00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:48,759
of people didn't catch that. But
I think that's coming next. But anyway,

282
00:17:48,119 --> 00:17:52,519
then they have of course, you
have Fire Island Jane Doe, which

283
00:17:52,559 --> 00:17:56,240
was in nineteen ninety six where pots
or legs were found in Fire Island and

284
00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:59,519
the rest of her was found in
gil Go. And then you have the

285
00:17:59,519 --> 00:18:03,400
manner of cases Valerie Mack and Jessica
Taylor whose torsos were found in Manorville and

286
00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:08,160
the rest of their bodies were found
in Gilgo. Gilgo is point or ground

287
00:18:08,279 --> 00:18:12,279
zero for all of this stuff.
And through my research and through my history,

288
00:18:12,440 --> 00:18:17,160
I've looked for other cases or other
instances where serial killers have used the

289
00:18:17,200 --> 00:18:19,880
same dumping ground and it's rare,
but coming from a kid from growing up

290
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:25,079
on Long Island, you don't know
Gilgo Beach or that area exists unless you

291
00:18:25,119 --> 00:18:29,240
live there, and it's it was
one of those things that because people are

292
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:32,039
saying it might be transit work,
it's transy, it might be working on

293
00:18:32,079 --> 00:18:34,559
the boats to fishing boats. I'm
like, no, you have to know,

294
00:18:34,759 --> 00:18:37,799
you have to live there. There
used to be and nobody talks about

295
00:18:37,799 --> 00:18:41,599
this when actually I haven't heard about
this about it any other podcast, so

296
00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,519
this might be the first time we
bring it up. There used to be

297
00:18:45,519 --> 00:18:48,240
an old inn there called the Oak
Beach in but that was turned into a

298
00:18:48,279 --> 00:18:52,720
bar restaurant. Oh yeah, I
don't know if I remember, and entering

299
00:18:52,759 --> 00:18:57,480
ads for it on the alternative rock
station, which is very big in the

300
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,359
eighties and nineties on Long Island,
and you could hear it in New York

301
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:06,640
City where I was living. So
the Yoke beach in I think is interesting

302
00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,839
in the aspect of is there any
connection between any of the people that we

303
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,119
know about in this case, including
those that are originally from the Shannon Gilbert

304
00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:18,000
case, because remember, without Shannon, you don't have any of these things.

305
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:22,599
The issue that comes down to is
the police need to now figure out

306
00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:27,680
first of all, deal with Maureen
Brandon Barnes and then as the fourth of

307
00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,720
the guild, go four and then
work on the other cases. Getting back

308
00:19:32,759 --> 00:19:36,720
to my theory on why I still
think it's one killer. Whoever was responsible

309
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:41,319
for those deaths, meaning Peaches and
Valerie Mack and Jessica Taylor and Fire Island

310
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:45,519
Jane Doe. He cut them up
for a specific reason. He picked those

311
00:19:45,559 --> 00:19:48,079
girls up off the street. He
had to whatever you want to refer to

312
00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,559
him at the street Walker's prostage,
whatever they sex parkers, whatever is the

313
00:19:52,599 --> 00:19:55,359
correct term these things. I'm an
old dog, so it's tough for me

314
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:59,039
to come up with the right vernacular. He picked these women up off the

315
00:19:59,039 --> 00:20:02,799
street, which him in a bad
position in respect of somebody might have seen

316
00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:04,960
somebody getting through car. Maybe one
of the girls, another girl saw and

317
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:08,039
maybe there was a pimp that might
have seen something, which ends up being

318
00:20:08,079 --> 00:20:11,119
the case anyway with one of the
other girls. The issue that comes down

319
00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:14,799
to is there was a huge risk
that he had to take, so he

320
00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:18,279
made great links to make sure that
the bodies could not be identified. He

321
00:20:18,319 --> 00:20:21,079
try to scrape both the tattoos.
He cut off hands, cuts off heads

322
00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:23,119
to make things really difficult. And
they were hitting for a long period of

323
00:20:23,119 --> 00:20:26,839
time. Now let's turn to the
gill go for much later on. He's

324
00:20:26,960 --> 00:20:32,839
using new technology. He's using websites
which he worked anonymously. The main website

325
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,279
was Backpage. It doesn't exist anymore, and I believe Craigslist might have been

326
00:20:36,319 --> 00:20:38,240
another one. And here's the other
issue. He was using burnaphones that we

327
00:20:38,279 --> 00:20:41,480
know for sure. So he thought
he was pretty much anonymous, using the

328
00:20:41,519 --> 00:20:45,880
internet, using websites, using burnaphones. There was no need for him to

329
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:51,799
dismember anybody. I haven't heard anyone
else say this before. And I've been

330
00:20:51,839 --> 00:20:56,079
reading and watching a tremendous amount of
coverage. I haven't heard anyone say this.

331
00:20:56,759 --> 00:20:59,720
This is just my working theory,
right, So if I was in

332
00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,039
the game, this is what I
would be thinking. That we've had a

333
00:21:02,039 --> 00:21:06,880
serial killer that's evolved not so much
from a psychological standpoint, but from a

334
00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:11,759
technology standpoint, and that has enabled
him to get away with this for so

335
00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,920
many years is because of his use
of technology and not so much the old

336
00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:18,079
fashioned way of pulling up on a
street corner and getting somebody to come into

337
00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:22,640
your car. Can we drill down
a little bit on the street corner aspect,

338
00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,759
because you're covering something that I,
again, I haven't heard anyone say

339
00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:30,400
before. Where would these face to
face pickups, if you will, of

340
00:21:30,559 --> 00:21:33,680
sex workers be taking place? Back
then, Kristen and I don't live on

341
00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:37,559
Long Island. Most of our listeners
don't either, Obviously some of them do.

342
00:21:38,079 --> 00:21:41,279
Where would those contacts have been taking
place? Are they happening in New

343
00:21:41,319 --> 00:21:45,599
York City or are they happening on
Long Island? What the interesting part of

344
00:21:45,599 --> 00:21:48,640
it is that some of the girls
came in through Penn Station, which would

345
00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:52,759
then create another tie to our suspect
because his offices were near there, So

346
00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,440
Penn Station seems to be a common
area where some of the girls came in

347
00:21:56,519 --> 00:22:00,559
from and then where he goes from
there. Because the thing that really nobody

348
00:22:00,559 --> 00:22:03,720
else was really talking about is where
did these murders happen? And that's a

349
00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:07,720
key thing, because I said this
before. I do not believe that anybody

350
00:22:07,799 --> 00:22:11,880
was killed in his house, and
I don't believe that anyone any of them

351
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,799
were killed in any of the hotels. None, None of that happened.

352
00:22:14,799 --> 00:22:17,039
It was just too much of a
risk as far as I'm concerned, especially

353
00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:21,279
in Massapequa Park. My god,
you're telling me in a nosy neighborhood like

354
00:22:21,319 --> 00:22:23,039
that that people looking out the window
your wife's on vacation, they say you're

355
00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:26,079
bringing young women parading through your house. That nobody would have said something by

356
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:30,160
now, No way, Jose.
And these are small lots in the houses

357
00:22:30,160 --> 00:22:34,200
are quite close together. Oh yeah, and everybody knows everybody's business. You

358
00:22:34,279 --> 00:22:37,400
heard it, you heard people talking
about it. It's just one of those

359
00:22:37,519 --> 00:22:41,720
kinds of things on Long Island.
I just don't see that as being a

360
00:22:41,799 --> 00:22:45,000
viable option for him. I think
it's just too much. You're dealing with

361
00:22:45,000 --> 00:22:48,200
somebody who has been very careful.
You don't do the stuff where you live.

362
00:22:48,799 --> 00:22:53,440
Even though rex Humorman wasn't considered an
oddball and sort of an off putting

363
00:22:53,559 --> 00:22:59,519
character, his neighbors still knew who
he was, and they still recognized him

364
00:22:59,599 --> 00:23:02,960
and had interacted with him any number
of times. Yeah, there was a

365
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,160
couple of people that they really didn't
have a lot of nice things to say

366
00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:07,440
about him. There was people that
say that they wouldn't let their kids go

367
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,400
trick to treating there. It was
Listen, we don't know for sure because

368
00:23:10,400 --> 00:23:12,480
we don't live there. We don't
know the man, so it's difficult to

369
00:23:12,519 --> 00:23:15,440
say in that respect. But I
always say there's one in every neighborhood right

370
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,880
when you're growing up that people say
stay away from that. It's just one

371
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:23,079
of those things. One of our
listeners made a very interesting and astute comment

372
00:23:23,279 --> 00:23:29,880
about the fact that this guy is
apparently a quite up and coming architect and

373
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:34,200
yet his house is a total shambles. Might not be because he doesn't want

374
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:40,319
anybody coming in doing contracting work fixing
it up. I'm wondering what your take

375
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,279
is on why is an architect living
in such a dump, like why are

376
00:23:42,279 --> 00:23:45,559
the shoemaker's children going barefoot? And
that's the exact quote I use on Twitter

377
00:23:45,599 --> 00:23:48,440
that day when that when the case
program like the shoemaker's kid go shoeless?

378
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,680
I said, we're staring at an
architect's house where two by four is holding

379
00:23:52,759 --> 00:23:56,079
up the front porch from falling down. And from what some of the photos

380
00:23:56,079 --> 00:23:59,400
we saw online, he actually did
some pretty good work in the architecture world.

381
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,200
Right, it was a photos on
his website before they took it down.

382
00:24:02,599 --> 00:24:04,759
You know, it's just an interesting
aspect the deal is with him,

383
00:24:04,799 --> 00:24:08,160
and like we've seen what other killers
is, he really doesn't draw attention to

384
00:24:08,240 --> 00:24:11,039
himself. Right, Everybody said,
it's quiet, and that's just people.

385
00:24:11,079 --> 00:24:15,480
That's why these guys. They don't
send flares up in the air and say,

386
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:17,440
hey guys, I'm a serial killer. This is what I do.

387
00:24:17,759 --> 00:24:19,920
Oh, he's so quiet, he's
always he's such a nice guy, everybody.

388
00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:22,720
That's the kind of thing you always
get from cases, because they don't

389
00:24:22,759 --> 00:24:26,960
want to draw attention to themselves.
That's what makes it lets them get away

390
00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,039
with this stuff for so long,
hiding in plain sight. As they like

391
00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,359
to say, Yeah, exactly,
you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll

392
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:45,519
be right back after this word from
our sponsors. We're back here at Mind

393
00:24:45,559 --> 00:24:52,119
over Murder. Talk a little bit
about what law enforcement maybe missed the first

394
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,039
time around. Let's go back to
that for a second. Why do you

395
00:24:56,119 --> 00:25:02,279
think that law enforcement missed that tip
about the Chevy Avalanche from Amber Costello's roommate,

396
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,599
because it really seems to me like
that was definitely a two theme point

397
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,960
here. How did that get overlooked? It could have come from some sort

398
00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:12,119
of bias where they got information from
somebody that they might have viewed as a

399
00:25:12,160 --> 00:25:15,880
pimp or as a prostitute and that
kind of stuff, and they just dismissed

400
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,400
it. Right, So we don't
condone that kind of behavior. That's one

401
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:22,880
thing that we've had with there was
a lot of complaints about the initial stages

402
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,920
in this investigation that the police weren't
taking it seriously because they were sex workers

403
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,960
involved in this, and they really, what's the big deal kind of thing.

404
00:25:30,599 --> 00:25:34,039
Those were some allegations that we heard
about, and if that's the case,

405
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,920
that might have played a part in
that per se. The other issue

406
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:41,279
is that I've been I've had cases
where they tell you, Yeah, he

407
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,359
was driving an suv Gee. Thanks
for the tip. So is everyone else

408
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,799
on Long Island. Yeah, and
that's that's that also is part of the

409
00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,119
problem. I know. I take
what people say publicly after the fact with

410
00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,720
a grain assault. Sometimes I told
them this ten years ago. Well,

411
00:25:55,759 --> 00:25:59,400
I'd like to see the exact investigative
report, if one was written, exactly

412
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,359
what was said and what was written
down, because they keep on referring to

413
00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,720
it as oh, I told them
as a first generational avalanche. I wouldn't

414
00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:08,920
know if it was a first generation
pickup truck or whatever. Come on,

415
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:14,000
I can't get that specific with cars, and so I'm a little skeptical on

416
00:26:14,039 --> 00:26:17,720
some of that stuff. It appears
as if they had the digital evidence,

417
00:26:17,799 --> 00:26:21,559
the phone evidence, and they had
the forensics, the DNA, but they

418
00:26:21,559 --> 00:26:25,359
just couldn't do anything with it until
some of the technology changed. They did

419
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:27,640
have enough in the case to start
this. So if they did have meaning

420
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,839
the police, if they did have
a description of just an avalanche. In

421
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:33,680
New York State, they have something
called the Lawman Search, which is run

422
00:26:33,720 --> 00:26:37,400
by the state police, where you
can ask them for every avalanche, green

423
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,680
avalanche, whatever. If we gave
a color even that are registered to Long

424
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:44,680
Island. You would get thousands of
them and then try to narrow it down

425
00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:45,960
to a specific So if I was
doing this, I know it's easy to

426
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:51,079
Monday Morning quarterback these things. But
we had cell phone pings in Manhattan,

427
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:55,400
we had cell phone pings in Massapequa. I would have asked for avalanches in

428
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:57,480
Massapequa and see where that would have
let us because we know we had phone

429
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,319
records that got there. People are, oh, yeah, Joe, great,

430
00:27:00,319 --> 00:27:03,359
are you were able to do this
after you know all this stuff?

431
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,440
But now this is what you talk
about when you deal with an experience.

432
00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:08,039
You have some things to work with
and just ask for it. So you

433
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:11,400
might have gotten a couple of hundred
even in Massa Peak or Massapequa Park,

434
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,720
right because it's it didn't really specify
which one because there's two different towns,

435
00:27:15,799 --> 00:27:19,359
Massa Peak or Massapequa Park. People
will realize that there's almost eight million people

436
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,200
at live on Long Island. It's
a lot of There are a lot of

437
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:26,240
people that live in it's on Long
Island, not in Long Island. I

438
00:27:26,279 --> 00:27:29,440
go crazy when people say, are
you in Long Island? Mill? We

439
00:27:29,759 --> 00:27:33,160
live on Long Island. People have
to remember, for those of us that

440
00:27:33,440 --> 00:27:37,400
don't live there, it's a gigantic
place too, very large, over one

441
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,720
hundred miles long, and eight million
people live there. So it isn't we're

442
00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,000
picking an island somewhere in the middle
of the ocean and we're saying, okay,

443
00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:48,599
we have let's say five hundred or
five thousand people live there. This

444
00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:55,640
is a densely populated suburban area,
even urban at the end, closest to

445
00:27:55,680 --> 00:27:57,960
New York City. Correct, and
think about it. Manhattan's got to think

446
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,160
nine million people, take a few, So you're talking about the equivalent of

447
00:28:02,319 --> 00:28:04,480
Manhattan population that live on Long Island. And here's the other thing that we're

448
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:07,240
watching the news coverage from people who
don't live in New York City area or

449
00:28:07,279 --> 00:28:11,000
Long Island. Brooklyn and Queens are
on Long Island, right, Okay,

450
00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,400
they just fall under the jurisdiction of
New York City. But there are technically

451
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,079
four counties that make up Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens, Nassau and Suffolk.

452
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:22,359
There's no imaginary river that cuts nats
are off. That's just the pet

453
00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:25,240
peeve of mine. But it tries
me crazy when I hear national news things

454
00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:29,079
talking about this like it's like it's
like Brooklyn and Queens aren't on Long Island.

455
00:28:29,519 --> 00:28:32,880
People look on guarantee there'll be people
looking at maps as they're listening to

456
00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:34,799
this, going no way, he's
wrong. Brooklyn and Queens is in New

457
00:28:34,880 --> 00:28:37,599
York City, yet it's governed by
New York City. It's not in New

458
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:42,759
York City technically regards to land mass, and these areas are immediately adjacent.

459
00:28:44,359 --> 00:28:47,920
And as we talked about, this
is a very densely populated area. It

460
00:28:48,039 --> 00:28:52,920
may get more spread out as you
move further along to the east, right

461
00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:56,200
on the other end of Long Island, and now you're out because you have

462
00:28:56,240 --> 00:29:00,880
close proximity to New York City.
So Nasaur is more populated than Suffo because

463
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,279
of the commute. But a lot
of people over the last I guess ten

464
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:08,480
or fifteen years have migrated further east
to Suffolk County because it was cheaper to

465
00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:11,519
live, and then they stick with
the longer commute. Now there is the

466
00:29:11,519 --> 00:29:15,720
long railroad that can get you there
to work without having to drive on the

467
00:29:15,839 --> 00:29:18,559
l Ie Cup of Bit, but
it's just one of those things. It's

468
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:26,039
a very densely populated location. And
when you talk about tying the potential killer

469
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:33,119
to some physical locations. They knew
that cell phone calls had been placed from

470
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,480
the area near Penn Station, which
is by the way where people that ride

471
00:29:37,559 --> 00:29:41,799
the Long Island Railroad come into New
York City. So millions of people ride

472
00:29:41,839 --> 00:29:47,279
the train each year, and hundreds
of thousands of people commute into New York

473
00:29:47,319 --> 00:29:52,480
City and come in near Penn Station. But then you also mentioned Massapequa and

474
00:29:52,559 --> 00:29:59,680
Massapequa Park. Cell phone calls had
been sent and received from Massapequa, so

475
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:06,319
they knew that was potentially a place
where this killer was associated. Yeah,

476
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:08,839
they called it the box, right, So when the Commissioner, Rodney Harrison,

477
00:30:08,920 --> 00:30:11,759
talked about it, he referred to
it as the box, and that

478
00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,599
box was Massive Peaka Park where that
cell phone tower was. Now you got

479
00:30:15,599 --> 00:30:18,400
to remember too, ten years ago, eleven years ago, when this was

480
00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,519
all happening, they might have been
maybe one or two cell towers. It's

481
00:30:21,519 --> 00:30:23,880
probably four or five now, right. That's why it wasn't as specific,

482
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,839
I don't think as you could get
today. So when they just say massive

483
00:30:26,839 --> 00:30:30,160
peak ware, I think it just
covered the massive peak was in that respect.

484
00:30:30,279 --> 00:30:34,160
But I've also been vocal about those
phone calls that they were making.

485
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,839
They were trying to keep them on
the line, allegedly. I'd like to

486
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,960
know if they try, if they
recorded those phone calls. They no mention

487
00:30:41,039 --> 00:30:45,640
of that. Over they recorded the
phone calls between the suspect and the system,

488
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,039
so that would be another interesting aspectivist. One thing we do know is

489
00:30:49,079 --> 00:30:52,160
that Supper County kept all of this
stuff close to the best, including the

490
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,440
hair fibers and all the other forensics
that they have. This was all a

491
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,720
shock to all of us because they've
made zero mention of any in the last

492
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,119
twelve years. I reread some articles
this morning in preparation for this discussion,

493
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,680
and a fact jumped out at me
that I don't think had registered with me

494
00:31:08,799 --> 00:31:14,559
before, which is, I didn't
realize that when he was calling the victim's

495
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:19,079
sister, the sixteen year old sister, basically torturing her on some level,

496
00:31:19,359 --> 00:31:25,319
abusing her, calling repeatedly and making
these horrible phone calls, I didn't realize

497
00:31:25,359 --> 00:31:30,000
law enforcement was listening in on those
calls. I don't know if they were

498
00:31:30,039 --> 00:31:33,279
listening in right. They were tracking
them right, so part of tracking is

499
00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:36,640
listening. My thing is did they
record them? We don't know. This

500
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,160
is pure speculation on my part,
but if I had a guess, I

501
00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,880
would say it's probably a seventy twenty
five percent chance that they recorded them.

502
00:31:41,920 --> 00:31:45,920
For what it's worth, I found
an article from twenty fifteen in the New

503
00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:52,000
York Post, not always the most
accurate newspaper ever, but in that article

504
00:31:52,119 --> 00:31:57,400
they favorite dedicated New Yorker I can
tell. In that article, which is

505
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:04,279
from twenty fifteen, they he said
that law enforcement was listening in on those

506
00:32:04,319 --> 00:32:07,119
calls. So I'd be real surprised
if they weren't recorded. Yeah, and

507
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,559
what should be another interesting thing,
because now you can you have voice technology

508
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:15,119
and everything else that goes along with
it. This is what's going to make

509
00:32:15,119 --> 00:32:19,359
those other cases more difficult because none
of this stuff exists with them. Remember

510
00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,200
we're talking about mid nineties kinds of
cases. Cell phones are still in the

511
00:32:22,279 --> 00:32:27,079
very infancy stage. Internet was just
starting, right, I think you were

512
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:30,640
still doing dial up with AOL going
back in ninety five ninety six, So

513
00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:35,400
for those old enough to remember the
real struggle about getting on the Internet.

514
00:32:36,119 --> 00:32:40,000
But so there are they are definitely
at a disadvantage for those cases. You

515
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:45,599
were mentioning that Suffolk County was holding
a lot of things close to the vest.

516
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:52,400
What is the advantage if any of
an investigative agency holding back clues or

517
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:58,000
withholding information. Is there some reason
Suffolk County was doing this or was this

518
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:02,039
just them not wanting to share invest
negative details. It's really part of every

519
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:07,279
investigation, every police department's playbook.
You don't give out certain details because there's

520
00:33:07,279 --> 00:33:09,759
only things that the killer would know
and we don't want to put those things

521
00:33:09,759 --> 00:33:13,920
out there. And actually the district
attorney, right Tierney, he spoke about

522
00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:16,640
that, said that they pretty much
knew he was watching and reading what was

523
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:21,599
going on the case. I guess
they had already served warrants on his Google

524
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:23,200
searches and all those other things at
the time before the arrest, so they

525
00:33:23,319 --> 00:33:28,640
knew exactly what he was doing,
so that they prevented any additional information getting

526
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,480
out. People said, what's the
big deal? Is a big deal because

527
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:35,359
you will have people come forward to
try to claim responsibility for things that they

528
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:39,160
didn't do, and it just ties
you down with a lot of extraneous tips

529
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:44,279
and everything else that goes along with
it. It was really not transparent though,

530
00:33:44,319 --> 00:33:47,119
the entire investigation, and it goes
hand in hand with what was happening

531
00:33:47,119 --> 00:33:51,240
in Suffolk County at the time.
There were federal investigations of your two top

532
00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:55,160
more enforcement agents in the entire county's
You can understand why none of this stuff

533
00:33:55,160 --> 00:33:59,519
actually ever came out because they didn't
want anything coming out of there, because

534
00:33:59,559 --> 00:34:04,000
they didn't want anymore eyes looking into
these things. I can't help but think

535
00:34:04,039 --> 00:34:08,639
that it might have been helpful if
they had released, for instance, the

536
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:15,079
videotape of Amber Costello in the lobby
of the hotel. I think it's one

537
00:34:15,159 --> 00:34:17,000
thirty in the morning or something,
and it's the last time she's seen alive.

538
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:22,199
One thing that really jumped out to
me was when they released the information

539
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,840
about the belt buckle, and they
showed the belt buckle, which could be

540
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:29,679
interpreted a couple of different ways with
the very stylized letters, but it did

541
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:34,760
look like initials or symbols of some
sort. I think those things might have

542
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:37,760
been helpful, and it might have
been a smarter play to release that information

543
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:43,239
much earlier. What's your take on
that. Yeah, the idea is trying

544
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,599
to get if you have certain things
that the public can help you with,

545
00:34:45,119 --> 00:34:49,320
try to identify this thing. So
if you show a video of somebody you

546
00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:52,760
know twelve years later. Listen,
people like myself of getting old, and

547
00:34:52,760 --> 00:34:54,440
though we don't remember what we did
twelve hours ago, let alone if we

548
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:59,880
saw something in a hotel when I
was traveling through going on somewhere, because

549
00:35:00,079 --> 00:35:01,840
you gotta remember too. Even though
Long Island is not New York City,

550
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:06,320
pretty much people are trained to mind
your own business, don't speak too,

551
00:35:06,480 --> 00:35:08,679
so they don't tend to get involved
in other people's things. And unless there's

552
00:35:08,679 --> 00:35:13,119
something really agreed, justus kind of
people just put the blinders on and keep

553
00:35:13,119 --> 00:35:16,320
on walking. The video to me
was not really helpful in a lot of

554
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:21,119
aspects. The Shannon Gilbert tape that
they fought for a decade to release,

555
00:35:21,119 --> 00:35:23,760
the nine one one tape, My
god, when I find when I couldn't,

556
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,440
when I was like, oh,
when they finally released it, I

557
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:29,880
thought it was going to be some
groundbreaking thing. It didn't help out at

558
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:32,719
anything. If anything, it caused
more confusion or more questions to be asked.

559
00:35:34,079 --> 00:35:37,760
So there were a couple of real
head scratchers about why they held out

560
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:42,639
certain things. The only thing that
moving forward, if you notice when the

561
00:35:42,639 --> 00:35:45,239
new administration took over, they really
didn't do a data dump either, right,

562
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:50,400
because within a few weeks of this
real investigation, they actually found exactly

563
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,760
what they were looking for. So
they came out with basically zero. At

564
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:58,159
that point they went totally dark and
then boom, rabbit out of a hat

565
00:35:58,199 --> 00:36:00,280
a few a year and a half
later. But why do you think,

566
00:36:00,320 --> 00:36:07,280
for example, the new task force
with FBI participation, again which I think

567
00:36:07,360 --> 00:36:12,400
actually was probably helpful, why do
you think it only took them six weeks

568
00:36:12,519 --> 00:36:16,400
or so to identify a potential suspect. Well, part of the whole thing

569
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:21,199
about cold cases, and I discussed
this at length a couple of different venues

570
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:22,960
and even in the book, is
about getting a fresh set of ice into

571
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:28,079
the case. Not only that,
when you have a motivated boss. Right,

572
00:36:28,159 --> 00:36:30,440
you had the new police Commissioner,
Rodney Harrison comes in and his first

573
00:36:30,519 --> 00:36:36,920
day that he is named the police
commissioner, he's in Gilgo Beach, introducing

574
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:39,639
himself and saying that this case is
priority number one. You had a new

575
00:36:39,679 --> 00:36:44,880
district attorney that came in, that
was voted in, and he said that

576
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:49,199
this case was priority number one.
So here you have the total opposite of

577
00:36:49,199 --> 00:36:52,039
what you were dealing with for a
decade you now have two men that are

578
00:36:52,039 --> 00:36:57,000
on the same page who made this
case of priority, and then opening up

579
00:36:57,079 --> 00:37:00,280
not only to the FBI, but
the state police, National bringing everybody in

580
00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:06,320
and creating this pass force where you're
pretty much taking these cops and investigators are

581
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:08,480
taking their lead from their bosses.
Right Their bosses are saying, do this,

582
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,400
find this, get me the information, get me the evidence, and

583
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,960
let's put this thing together. When
you have a situation like that, and

584
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:19,840
I don't care if it's in a
police department or in a boardroom or CEO

585
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,639
of some major corporation, if the
people that are working for that individual are

586
00:37:22,639 --> 00:37:25,199
inspired by them, you'll get good
things that come out of it. And

587
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:29,519
if you treat people right, you're
going to get even more out of them.

588
00:37:29,519 --> 00:37:32,320
And this is something that even in
police departments, are in any organization,

589
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,639
I still can't believe they don't get
the message right. If you treat

590
00:37:35,679 --> 00:37:38,039
the people that work for you the
right way, they'll move mountains for you.

591
00:37:39,079 --> 00:37:42,599
There are some people that still don't
get that message, and I scratch

592
00:37:42,679 --> 00:37:45,800
my head, what would you be
looking for in the other locations where Rex

593
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:50,760
Human had connections. We know he
has a property in South Carolina. He

594
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,920
has a time share in Las Vegas. Is he going to be hiding things

595
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:58,800
their bodies? Other things? Like
what do you think the odds are that

596
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,280
there's going to be evidence should be
found in there's out their location as I

597
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:06,480
don't know per se right, because
they're mentioning now they're trying to tie him

598
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,599
to New Jersey with the four cases
over there. We've heard now his they

599
00:38:08,679 --> 00:38:14,199
mentioned and everything, but the Jimmy
Hoffock case for suffoc counting, they're just

600
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,599
worry about your own little fiftom over
there and let the authorities in those other

601
00:38:17,639 --> 00:38:21,039
places. But look, they have
is DNA now right, So if there's

602
00:38:21,039 --> 00:38:23,960
any of those cases that they have
come have DNA that they can be traced

603
00:38:23,960 --> 00:38:28,679
back to something, whether it's blood, seamen of the body, fluids or

604
00:38:29,039 --> 00:38:30,760
finger prints or what have you.
They have it now right. They have

605
00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:34,599
this thing to Prince. They have
it is DNA. So you're going to

606
00:38:34,679 --> 00:38:38,079
let them do their job in that
respect. For suffoc counting, job number

607
00:38:38,119 --> 00:38:43,559
one is to deal with Maureen branded
Barnes case and tie him to the fourth

608
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:46,519
and then the other cases if there
is evidence, I think, out of

609
00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:50,960
all of them, the most likely
that they could probably come up with some

610
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,840
sort of hopefully with forensics. Is
the Peaches case because she was stuffed in

611
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:58,760
a bin, wrapped in clothing,
there was a belief tape and everything else

612
00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,320
like that too, So they might
get lucky in that one too. And

613
00:39:01,599 --> 00:39:06,639
sometimes it's better to be lucky than
good. And you're thinking, is you

614
00:39:06,679 --> 00:39:13,000
think some of the other approximately seven
cases in this Long Island serial killer series

615
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,800
could be tied back into this killer? Well, like I said, I

616
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,840
find stick with my theory from the
beginning that there's one killer. Now you

617
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,039
have to let the evidence prove yourself. So you have a starting point,

618
00:39:23,079 --> 00:39:25,480
you have a suspect, you have
as DNA, you have all those other

619
00:39:25,519 --> 00:39:30,039
things. Do any of those cases
provide an opportunity? Is he willing to

620
00:39:30,039 --> 00:39:34,800
talk about any other cases? We
haven't heard about anything that too. We've

621
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:39,039
known from other serial killer cases that
they have taken deals to take certain things

622
00:39:39,039 --> 00:39:43,039
off the table. But see this
is where I don't and it is where

623
00:39:43,039 --> 00:39:46,320
I get all my eight mail people. Not it does. But the death

624
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:51,840
penalty right now New York has the
death penalty on the books. They'll never

625
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:54,400
use it. This might be a
case where they can use this as a

626
00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:58,199
bargaining chip, saying, you know
what, you're gonna be the first person

627
00:39:58,199 --> 00:40:00,559
we're gonna put up for the death
penalty unless you want to make a deal

628
00:40:00,599 --> 00:40:02,840
on something. Tell us what you
know, if anything, about these other

629
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,920
cases. So that's a way to
go. But I know people are gonna

630
00:40:06,920 --> 00:40:08,280
be like, oh my god,
the death penalty, that's so hard should

631
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:13,800
come on at this point, it's
about using it as leverage, so to

632
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:16,400
make people feel better. I keep
seeing people saying, and these are not

633
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:22,960
necessarily experts, these are I'm chair
detectives. They keep commenting that New York

634
00:40:22,039 --> 00:40:25,880
does not have the death penalty.
Oh, we have murder first degree still

635
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:30,280
on the books. Oh it's on
the books. They haven't removed it yet.

636
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:34,119
They'll never use it. They've declared
it as unconstitutional, but it's still

637
00:40:34,119 --> 00:40:37,159
on the books. Just listen,
New York State. You don't You're not

638
00:40:37,199 --> 00:40:40,039
allowed to use polygraphs as part of
any type of investigation except for it to

639
00:40:40,079 --> 00:40:44,239
get information out and stuff like that. So there are things that you can

640
00:40:44,280 --> 00:40:49,320
do. The issue that comes down
to is I don't think when Governor Pataki

641
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:52,280
came in the nineteen nineties, who
signed the death penalty back into law,

642
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:55,360
and if you look at today's New
York penal law, murder first degree is

643
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:58,960
still there up at that point.
Like when I was a rookie copy when

644
00:40:59,000 --> 00:41:00,679
I came on in nineteen ninety two, the top charge in New York State

645
00:41:00,679 --> 00:41:06,039
was murder two because murder one came
with the death penalty. It's been labeled

646
00:41:06,079 --> 00:41:08,639
unconstitutional. That's the thing that people
will say they don't have it. Well,

647
00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:12,519
they have it, but can they
use it? As the other question.

648
00:41:13,199 --> 00:41:15,360
Listen, when a cop gets killed, let's talk about the death penalty.

649
00:41:15,679 --> 00:41:19,519
If they're gonna if the projecutors are
going to go for it, So

650
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:22,800
it's there. That was one of
the most prominent uses of murder one that

651
00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:29,519
I remember was when a police officer
was killed by a suspect. So there's

652
00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:31,840
I think there's eighteen different ways that
you can get charge with murder first degree.

653
00:41:32,199 --> 00:41:36,280
So you can kill a police officer, corrections officer in their duties,

654
00:41:36,639 --> 00:41:39,480
a judge, a district attorney,
if you killed more than one person over

655
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:44,079
a period of time, aka serial
killer. It's something that's on that it's

656
00:41:44,119 --> 00:41:46,679
there. You can have a lawyer, of course, tell us why they

657
00:41:46,679 --> 00:41:52,159
don't they won't use it until then. Murder first degree is still on the

658
00:41:52,199 --> 00:41:55,360
books. When you go back to
school in the fall, do you fully

659
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:01,400
expect to be asked about this case
by your classes? The ironic part less

660
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:07,320
semester for so the spring semester,
the term paper was who is the Long

661
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:12,679
Island serial Killer? Really? Yeah? And actually what happened was if I

662
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:14,719
know this is going to sound like
a shameless plug, but if you go

663
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,639
to my Twitter feed about a day
or so after the arrest, I copied

664
00:42:19,679 --> 00:42:22,360
and pasted an email I got from
one of my former students. That's it.

665
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:24,760
I don't know if you heard this
or not, but the term paper,

666
00:42:24,760 --> 00:42:28,000
the research paper that you gave us, they rested a guy that they

667
00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:30,159
put the Long Island serial Killer,
and he went on and on about this,

668
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:32,119
and I, of course I cut
his name off and everything like that,

669
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:36,039
and I just posted the email on
there. That's the kind of stuff

670
00:42:36,079 --> 00:42:38,280
that makes teaching worthwhile when you can
actually hit this thing. So what I

671
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:43,480
do is because I teach the investigations
class, so I always try to keep

672
00:42:43,599 --> 00:42:46,360
a I was using Long Island serial
Killer for Less semester because it's believe it

673
00:42:46,440 --> 00:42:50,480
or not, many kids that didn't
know about it, because you remember some

674
00:42:50,559 --> 00:42:53,559
of these kids were babies when this
case was finally broke, say, they

675
00:42:53,599 --> 00:42:58,920
really hadn't heard much about it,
and so I now I have to find

676
00:42:58,920 --> 00:43:02,840
another case. Wait, was anybody
close, like in anybody in their discussion

677
00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:07,199
of who the Long Island serial killer
was? Anymail? I'm clothes just the

678
00:43:07,199 --> 00:43:10,159
same professional guy from Manhattan, Like
I said, I wasn't even close,

679
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,960
right, So I don't expect them
to be that close. But I just

680
00:43:14,199 --> 00:43:16,360
give them the idea of doing some
research, learning about the cage, trying

681
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:22,159
to do their own profile kind of
thing and develop that kind of skill was

682
00:43:22,199 --> 00:43:24,440
the goal of the research project,
right, So it puts a different spin

683
00:43:24,519 --> 00:43:30,559
on the usual boring research topic thing
that you do. And so they're like,

684
00:43:30,599 --> 00:43:32,639
oh, what's yourn is on the
history of what is yours? I'm

685
00:43:32,679 --> 00:43:36,000
trying to find out who the low
Own serial killer is. I thought it

686
00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:38,679
was this kind of a little more
of a cat and mouse kind of thing,

687
00:43:38,679 --> 00:43:42,960
and the kids really liked it.
If I could use If I could

688
00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:46,760
use that for my class, kids
would love research paper as a whole lot

689
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:52,639
more. I love that. I'll
vote it to you. Yes, there's

690
00:43:52,679 --> 00:43:53,800
a couple of things I've done with
my students get that back. And I've

691
00:43:53,840 --> 00:44:00,119
also used the movies like mister Brooks. I teacher class. So you have

692
00:44:00,159 --> 00:44:05,480
ever seen mister Brooks with Kevin Costner. Yes, yes, it's another one.

693
00:44:05,519 --> 00:44:07,760
I had them doing the whole twist
and turns, and I won't this

694
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:08,840
this case. Somebody's never seen it. I don't want to give away the

695
00:44:09,119 --> 00:44:13,239
the ending, but there's lots of
twists and turns and that kind of stuff.

696
00:44:13,239 --> 00:44:15,639
So I'll make them watch the movies
or at the time when remember when

697
00:44:15,679 --> 00:44:20,119
Seeal podcast came out, I had
them listen to that and then try to

698
00:44:20,159 --> 00:44:24,800
find out if ad Non was guilty
or not guilty thought and they really liked

699
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:30,159
that stuff. Yeah, that really
like that stuff. Thank you both for

700
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,599
not giving away the ending to mister
Brooks. I've never seen the movie and

701
00:44:32,639 --> 00:44:36,960
I just thought, oh, watch
it, you'll like it. It's great.

702
00:44:37,039 --> 00:44:38,920
Oh my gosh. Yeah, Joe, please send me all that stuff

703
00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:42,920
that sends tremendous. I can't do
it, of course, in a public

704
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,159
high school, but boy, it
would give me some great ideas from my

705
00:44:45,199 --> 00:44:49,199
own teaching. Yeah. No,
there's lots of different things that I tried

706
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,320
to do. Like one of the
things when I first became a teacher eighteen

707
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:54,280
someone years ago, I said,
I don't want to be like the teachers

708
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:58,159
I had, or some of the
teachers that I had. It's like the

709
00:44:58,159 --> 00:45:00,119
old thing when gouff bid. You
grew up in an environment where you had

710
00:45:00,159 --> 00:45:04,360
an abusive parent, right, and
some kids grow up to be abusive,

711
00:45:04,400 --> 00:45:06,760
and then some kids grow up and
say, I'm never going to be abusive.

712
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:08,840
So I looked at my education the
same way. I had some teachers

713
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:12,719
that were real church and I had
some teachers that were really good. I

714
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:15,599
said, I'm not going to be
the jerk I'm gonna do. I'm gonna

715
00:45:15,679 --> 00:45:20,039
change that. We make change by
saying I'm not doing that, and then

716
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:24,360
you know, taking your own little
spin on things. But it's teaching is

717
00:45:24,400 --> 00:45:29,280
good. It's something that I think
a lot of people can definitely put their

718
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:32,920
expertise in there and encourage anybody to
do that too well, said Joe.

719
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,519
In addition to going back to school, what is next for you? Yeah,

720
00:45:37,519 --> 00:45:39,920
so school starts in three weeks.
I can't believe I'm just as bummed

721
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:45,800
out at the kids are. Yeah, yeah, she's so Yeah, I

722
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,639
got school. So I have a
couple of trips coming up. Like I

723
00:45:47,639 --> 00:45:53,400
said, I'm going to Indiana,
I'm going to crime Con. See yep,

724
00:45:53,519 --> 00:45:55,880
I'll be there. Yeah, we'll
hook up down that time for sure.

725
00:45:57,079 --> 00:46:00,239
And actually last year was also the
first year. In April I did

726
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:05,280
the Long Island their first kind of
frame con kind of thing they call up

727
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,960
the Hampton's who done it? Yeah, I was invited to do the speaker

728
00:46:10,039 --> 00:46:13,599
on that. I actually they ended
up putting me into two different things in

729
00:46:13,599 --> 00:46:15,440
the ironic pot as. We were
supposed to do a series on the Long

730
00:46:15,519 --> 00:46:22,159
Island s cerial Killer a Paddle.
It got canceled because some politics got in

731
00:46:22,159 --> 00:46:24,039
the way. It would have been
interesting now that this case broke a few

732
00:46:24,039 --> 00:46:28,199
months later. But that'll be I
think I'm coming back to that in April

733
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:30,199
too. So the next couple of
months, I got some trips and I'm

734
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:36,719
thinking about maybe writing another book.
So let's see. People say it's easy

735
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:38,639
to write one book, two books
is difficult three books. Has don't heard

736
00:46:38,679 --> 00:46:43,199
of a less of couchy James Patterson
and you have. You can buy these

737
00:46:43,239 --> 00:46:46,400
things out on a weekend. Hey
yeah, thank yeah, thank you for

738
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:50,760
taking a shot. At James Patterson
because honestly, he's got enough ghostwriters.

739
00:46:51,599 --> 00:46:55,039
Oh my god, how he does
it do this is how he does?

740
00:46:55,119 --> 00:47:00,639
How other people do the books for
him? Yeah, I think he writes

741
00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:04,400
an outline and hands it to them
and says, go to it. Yeah.

742
00:47:04,519 --> 00:47:07,000
I guess if you get to a
certain point, you can do that

743
00:47:07,039 --> 00:47:09,280
too. We hope that you'll get
to that point. Although I think you

744
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:17,119
are not. Your focus on practical
application of the work that you have done

745
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:22,760
is so incredibly beneficial, and I
think you're hang it forward in a really

746
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:28,599
meaningful way with books like the Cold
Case Handbook. That's the kind of writing

747
00:47:28,599 --> 00:47:30,480
I ended up doing, right.
I always wanted to be a writer kind

748
00:47:30,519 --> 00:47:32,280
of thing. I always had that
thing I could write a book. I

749
00:47:32,360 --> 00:47:36,360
used to belong to this stuff and
called the Long Island Writers Guilt And we

750
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:39,599
started out out of the Borders bookstore. That's how old I am. Right.

751
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:43,960
Yeah. We would meet like once
a month and we would get there

752
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:45,960
and critique other peoples stuff, which
I highly encourage people. So if you're

753
00:47:45,960 --> 00:47:50,239
not faith of heart, though,
right, don't do it. If you

754
00:47:50,280 --> 00:47:52,440
can't take rejection, this is not
people say, Joe, what do you

755
00:47:52,480 --> 00:47:55,079
think and then never spoke to me
again. I always tell people when they

756
00:47:55,079 --> 00:47:58,199
ask me, what do you think, I go ask somebody else, all

757
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,599
right, because the last dozen people
don't talk to me anymore. But it's

758
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:05,199
there are a lot of different things, like I tell people, Oh,

759
00:48:05,360 --> 00:48:07,480
I like to write a book,
so I go just write it. I

760
00:48:07,519 --> 00:48:09,719
want to be a writer, right, But I do have a fiction book

761
00:48:09,719 --> 00:48:13,960
in me. I know I have
a fiction book in me, but it

762
00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:17,280
is extremely difficult to get something like
that polished. So that's the tough thing.

763
00:48:17,360 --> 00:48:20,679
But I'm waiting for somebody to tell
me I can't do it, and

764
00:48:20,679 --> 00:48:22,760
then I'll do it because I like
when people say you can't do it.

765
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:27,679
I'm like, okay, I can't
like a challenge. Yeah, I love

766
00:48:27,679 --> 00:48:30,480
it. Joe, Thank you so
much for spending time with us. We

767
00:48:30,559 --> 00:48:32,599
really appreciate it and we are looking
forward to seeing you. A crime con

768
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,280
sounds great. Thanks for having me, guys, that's gonna do it for

769
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:51,239
this episode of mind Over Murder.
We'll see you next time. Mind Over

770
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:57,679
Murder is a production of Absolute Zero
and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers

771
00:48:57,719 --> 00:49:01,559
are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dewey.
Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois.

772
00:49:02,079 --> 00:49:07,239
Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership

773
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:12,840
with Coral Space Media. You can
follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or

774
00:49:12,880 --> 00:49:16,639
Instagram. You can also follow our
page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook,

775
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:21,760
and finally, you can follow Bill
Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas.

776
00:49:22,039 --> 00:50:01,000
Five six. Thank you for listening
to mind Over Murder one