Hey there, fellow travelers. I recently joined the Tolkien podcast Window on the
West from the guys at the Onenering dot com for a discussion of what makes
Tolkien so great and the future of Middle Earth on screen. This was a
fun conversation, and I'm providing a sample for you here, but you should
really head on over to the Oneering dot com to listen to the whole thing
and subscribe to their podcast. To make it easy, just head on over
to Tolkien Road dot com slash window and that will get you where you need
to be. And now enjoy this sample of my recent appearance on the Window
on the West podcast. The reason I agree with you so much about that
point about Newmanoor is because this is what makes Tolkien's works so compelling is that
he has this detail and he wasn't perfect, he didn't not make any mistakes,
but he had this such a devotion to the richness and building the background
that it would be it is a deep disservice to his literature to ignore all
that. So that's fine. That's one thing that's like for the Tolkien to
real Tolkien nerds. We get worked up about that stuff, but then you
get to places like when the new Menorians are coming to save a village they
don't even know exists in his under attack, which is hilarious that they would
be charging across the mountain, but they literally say it's going to take us
three days or two days to make this travel, and then one night later
they arrive, so they can't even pay attention to their own dialogue from from
the previous episode and make sure that it's I mean, I don't know who
the quality control people were or weren't. Yeah, I mean, this is
what why Tolkien is so good, because he he slaved over the details.
There's a quote that I posted to Twitter a while back which was this map
as hell because he couldn't He couldn't make the map work exactly as he wanted
to. He had to keep shifting things, and like the time it took
them to cross certain paths and get across mountains and things like that. It
just wasn't working out perfectly, and he spent so much time trying to get
it right. And then other people who take his work and don't care about
it. That's where I think the big disconnect becomes for fans like us,
whereas they just seem like they didn't care anymore. It's just like the goal
is to actually make the special effects look really good. Now nothing else matters,
like the acting, the writing, everything else doesn't matter. They had
money, they had time, they had like you know, and they couldn't
get it right. And and I don't, you know, at the end
of the day, like I don't pay a lot of attention to like the
you know, what's happening now in terms of like the daily you know,
leaks from the production or whatever like um, but I don't. I don't
necessarily um and maybe that's maybe I'm wrong in this, but I don't necessarily
fault the showrunners. The two the two guys whatever their names are, UM
and UM. I think they got thrown into it and um and and somebody
like they were like, these two guys want to make a name for themselves.
They'll just you know, they'll they'll be useful tools for us corporate powers,
right. Yeah. I think about like the corporate powers having their hands
on Tolkien's works, and I'm like, it's like this is basically Sauron got
his hands on Tolkien stories and it's now telling the stories right, burning up
the shire. Yeah, you know, um. And so you know,
and I look back at like Peter Jackson's films, and again there's there's issues
with Peter Jackson's film he did. He did not create perfection. But those
Lord of the Rings films stand up and are good films in my opinion,
um, and are still very enchanting to me because he was one guy who
had a very unique vision, just like Tolkien was right, just like the
passion man he did right. And then you look and Rings the power is
all it's a corporate thing and it's so it's mediocre and uh and it's mart
and it's marketable and all these kinds of Yeah. I did a video a
while back, like probably in the summer where it's all these things fail when
you don't have a single passionate voice standing up for it. And so you
look at Star Wars, even Marvel. Now when I think John Favreau left
right, there was there was a voice who was like kind of speaking what
it was. And then you lose George Lucas and now you lose Peter Jackson
or Peter Jackson last year token or however you want to look at that,
but you lose that passion and it becomes an exercise in profit, and if
it's not going to make a profit, we're just going to kill it rather
than let's make something great. And by default what should happen is you will
actually make money on it, which is what happened. And uh and I'm
and which leads us right into where we are now with the upcoming films from
Warner Brothers, supposedly set in the Third Age. Yeah, but it's it's
that corporate entity and that's what scares me the most. It's it's it's a
machine. Yeah, And I'll speak to what you're saying, John, I
really do I agree with you one hundred percent about um J D. Payne,
whose name has taken on special significance to me and Patrick McKay um.
But because I actually show runners, Yeah, the two show runners for Rings
of Power. I I just I really do believe that the corporate machine just
chose them because they were easy to manipulate like they they they would not have
been had no credits under their belt before that. If they had actually got
Jackson back again somehow, and if he had been interested, they would they
would not have liked it because they wouldn't have been able to push him around
right the way so that the same way. Now I'm no fan of the
Hobbit movies, but I know that there was also other other considerations about demo
y toros um scripts and things that they had to total the line on that
Jackson did to the line on. But anyway, it's it. It really
is a corporate product and hence more of a more of a product. I
mean, maybe maybe I'm tapping into the lewis that hideous strength too much,
but it's like, it's like as if the Nice Corporation made a movie about
Tolkien's Like it's so it's and it doesn't even hold up to its own standards.
I mean, for heaven's sake, the prequel to House of the Dragon
did way better than than Tolkien's work, which which has no no um right
to. But but then again, you look at that and you're like,
well, the House of the Dragon had the original writer involved still, and
so there was even though and you look at um uh a song licens fires
what was the songs the Game of Thrones, I could't even remember the name.
Look at that once the once the person with the passion behind it,
the author was gone. The last two seasons just fell into an a bit
we're terrible. Yeah, I was. I was more, even though I
think Martin is a talented writer. I was more comparing like at their best
Game of Thrones and House of the Dragon, when put into film, they
can reach about that high. Tolkien has the potential for Tolkien, an actual
good Tolkien film is so much higher. And the fact that they managed to
achieve this ridiculously low level of interest in you didn't even stand up to its
own to modern media, let alone his works. So yeah, it was.
It was a travesty, absolutely, So how do they fix it in
the upcoming films? I mean, they said they're going back to Peter Jackson,
but I think, you know, Peter Jackson's kind of been there,
done that. I don't think he has that passion anymore. Right, that
was that was his magnamopus doing the Lord of the Rings. I don't know,
man, I don't want to. So here's here's an example. Here's
an example. I don't know. Are you either of you guys Star Trek
fans? Yes, yeah, I'm a Star Trek fan. Okay, So
Star Trek McCart Seasons one and two were absolute utter trash They had no business
being called Star Trek. Piccard was a shelve himself. They had to deal
with daddy issues and mommy issues and all this sort of stuff that in Star
Trek doesn't mean anything. Star Trek has always been about people coming together about
you know, Earth was obviously utopian format and um based out of that,
right, the Federation was trying to do good and here the whole time,
you know, we've got again, there's a whole the whole Season two is
based on illegal immigration, Like, nobody in this world wants to see Star
Trek based upon illegal immigration. In our time, we watched Star Trek to
escape, not to actually like go look at like how bad our political systems
are right now. Way, you didn't watch Star Trek to see Stacy Abrams
as president. That's another one Star Trek discovery. I didn't see that,
Serason, but I knew that she was in it. What I want to
see is the failed Georgia governor gubernatorial candidate, right, That's what I want
to see anyway. So, but but Piccart season three is actually amazingly good.
It is really really good. And they got a guy who worked on
I think he worked on an extension. He's like an intern or he was
an assistant or something like that, and kind of stuck with Star Trek and
he worked on I think Piccart season two, but that gave him an in
to the suits and an end to the actors to go to them a head.
Here's my idea for season three. Here, let's do this, let's
do this. His name is Terry Matalas, and the music is great.
They got rid of Jeff Russo, who's an absolutely bysmal conductor a musician.
I hate his music. It is all just bland and melodyless. And they
got a new guy to kind of like harken back to some of the old
teams. And so what they did is they got somebody with some vision,
with some passion and put him in charge of it and stood back and said,
let you do whatever you want. And so they completely ignored seasons one
and two. They ignored, like what what Warner Brothers would have to do
with some parts of the hobbit I think and would have to do with obviously
with ringings the power they can do, but they have to ignore what came
before and do something with a passion there and hands off right and say,
yeah, what go ahead. Michael's however, I know we we brought we
brought John on to interview them, and then we're just sitting there talking jump
in. I'll jump in a yeah, please do run rough shot if you
if you can. And but but here's the difference. The thing I love
about Season three or Picardy, I love. Yes, I agree with you,
it's it's so far it's good. First few episodes are good. Reason
it's good is because they brought back Riker, because they brought back Wharf,
because they're doing it the way. But it's not just that, no,
no, but but they're living up to their characters. They're yes. So
here's the thing. They are tapping into something that made as a Star Trek
the next generation good or at least watchable for most people. And and so
they something real to reach back to and say, hey, we're gonna make
it like this again, because everyone says that our first two seasons sucked,
and so so we're gonna we're gonna take a chance on a on a twist
by like actually going back to the source material that people like. They don't
have that option with Rings of Power. This is why I say that,
because they can't use the Silmarillion, they can't and so it can and if
they do, they'll they'll get their rear end suit off. So you know,
my thing was like, well, okay, you've got you've got Appendix
B and um and some information from Appendix A M so you I mean,
and and apparently they have, you know, permission they can go to the
Tolkien estate and be like, hey, can we use this? Can we
use this? Right? Um? But uh, you know, my whole
thing is like, well, if you don't, if you can't tell the
story the way it needs to be told, and don't tell the story,
you could have told another story, you could have done something totally right.
Yeah, and um, but a quarter of a billion dollars, come on,
just to they spent a quarterbillion, How could they have to do something?
Now they are a bunch of suits who just spent a quarter of a
billion dollars on rights. So yeah, so I just I just think they've
painted themselves in a corner. I agree with you. You have elements,
of course from the Simlarillion independix say in appendix But but but you don't have
enough if they start if they start tapping in too much of the simlar Arlion,
and sure you could play the lawyer game, but you can't play the
lawyer game with the whole thing, and lawyer games are expensive, you can,
so, so I'm let's completely right off the Rings of Power and say
that's you know, that's that's sludge under the bridge. Uh. Let's talk
about what they're gonna do with the films, right, because that's the real
thing, is like the Rings of Power is like I don't know how you
recover from that unless you take you take what they made huge and you try
to concentrate on one story and make it really interesting. Um. But with
Warner Brothers, right, they're gonna they're gonna supposedly tell stories in the third
Age, they're going to tell stories perhaps of young Ragorn. They're gonna tell
a story of perhaps, um you know the Angmar Wars, the um uh
with which convey Mar and how they lost aren't or and all so you know
the whole battle up there and what a top again and see all that.
Um, but how do you like? That's that's logistical, that's like,
Okay, what are we going to do? What kind of person do they
need to get involved? Like? Are there people still out there? Like
do they need to go outside of the Hollywood industry and would these guys ever
do it or should we just forget about it? Like I honest yeah,
go ahead, I honestly don't. Like I I'm so uh maybe the skill
again to do it, because see I seemed to trust these days when it
comes to anything, umny anything in Hollywood. Um So, I just there's
so few people like that I think are up. I think are up to
the task. At this point. It's just all it's just all so corporate
and um, everything is so everything is so managed, um from the top
down by people who are you know, probably they're they're probably millionaires playing games
with each other and you know, career games with each other, and you
know, everybody knows that dynamic that goes on with people gunn you know,
just idiots gunning for you know, little little fiefdoms within their corporate worlds.
And these are the kinds of things that Tolkien stuff is subject to right now,
right, um, little petty, little petty fiefdom arguments. And so
I'm like that probably sounds really pessimistic. My I guess the optimist in me
will say, I do really hope they can do something great, great,
because I want to see something great. I wanted Rings the Power to be
fantastic. Um, you go back and you go back to the years leading
up to twenty twenty two after they announced it, and I was I was
like super excited, very a lot, a lot about on the podcast.
Um. It wasn't until like that that trailers dropped during the super Bowl and
some of the stuff with like magazine articles and that kind of super fans remember
them. Oh I I didn't even ever watch that. I just I was
done by even the time the super Fans thing came out and I heard about
it later on, but I was just like that. It was the nail
on the coffin for me because I was like, I was like, you
guys are trying way too hard with this man. See See it's that's the
problem with with uh, you know, converse to Catholicism, like you,
is that you haven't you haven't absorbed the self flagellation that that cradle Catholics have,
and so we're we're you know, we want the pain. At a
certain point, we're just like, oh, it's so that's so wrong.
I'm gonna watch some more of it. Terrible. Hey, you know I've
been a Catholic, uh twelve thirteen years at Easter, so you know I'm
getting there. I'm start to pick up on the self flagellation. Then I
watched Rings of Power all eight episodes. That's true, you did that.
That is a good start. I hope you enjoyed that sample of my recent
appearance on the On the West podcast. There's a lot more where that came
from, so make sure to head on over to Tolkien Road dot com,
slash window, or the Wondering dot Com to listen to the whole thing.
Thanks for listening, and until next time, the Road goes ever On