Hello, and welcome to the show. I'm Martin Willishure host and we have
a new start time for those of you who are watching this live, it's
going to be this time from here on out. The six o'clock start time
has always been difficult for me because of what I do for a real job.
For one thing, I've a lot of times I run late or run
right up to the deadline. Another thing is a lot of my guests are
on the West Coast, which means that they would have had to start at
three pm in the afternoon, and a lot of people have actually turned down
being on my show because it's too early for them because they have a job
and things like that. The only place it hurts at all is when I
talked with someone in Europe. It was a little bit easier in that case.
So I am switching till seven o'clock. So it's going to be on
KGr A Radio from seven to eight every week. I may go longer on
the live with some of the guests, and this day is no exception.
With my good friend Lie Spiegel, you may know of him from the Huffington
Post. He was writing there for years, but he's also known all the
way back into the nineteen seventies. He brought UFOs to the un And we're
going to be talking tonight about this great album that he has that he shared
with me, and this was in interviews that he did with Key People back
in nineteen seventy five. He was released in nineteen seventy six. I believe
he may correct me on some of that. We have a couple of clips
we're going to play from at this Week's a blog by Charles Lear is a
UFO and Arguments in British Columbia, Canada. Charles Lear has been writing blogs
consistently for us for several years. I really appreciate his great work. He
also has a book out. I encourage anyone that would like to get his
book, and it is called The Flying Saucer Investigators. He was on here
as a guest and we were talking about that. But he does great work.
It's a great book. I'm getting a lot of feedback about his book.
A lot of people really love it. And without further ado, I'd
like to bring in my friend Lee. Welcome Lee. Well, thank you
Martin for inviting me on. I was curious, when are you going to
tell the audience about your day job working in the intelligence community for the government.
Eventually, eventually I will, you know, along with Richard Doughty and
those other people I work with. Yes, we need to know what you
know. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, No, I don't think there'll
be any surprises like that coming out of me. But you know, you
haven't. Oh, you just might have started something a rumor. Now it's
you know, UFO Twitter, I can't wait to have We've opened the Martin
Willis Pandora's box. That's right, that's right. So you've had a couple
of changes lately and you're on UNIX. How do you say that? Is
that? Did I pronounce that correctly? It's it's actually UNEXX. Yeah,
just the letters unex, which really kind of stands for unexplained and so it
kind of encompasses all things paranormal. So I not only am I doing my
own show there now on Thursday nights, but I'm also the managing editor for
the unex magazine that is a quarterly issue, and I've had some really interesting
stories so far. I've what I've brought to the magazine was, instead of
just writing a story like I used to do with The Lington Post, I'm
offering for the monthly what's not a monthly, it's a quarterly issue. Each
issue will have basically the interview of the issue, and I'm choosing really interesting
who I think are newsmakers in the field of paranormal UFOs and and in fact,
you are familiar with the gentleman who is my interview subject in the current
issue that just came out. The overall theme of the magazine is time travel,
and my interview is with Montana tech archaeologist anthropologist doctor Michael Masters. Yes,
great guy. He's going to be coming up on the show and the
next I think the next month or so at some point. Yeah, he's
he's very funny, he's very interesting, and what a theory. He has
a really great theory. I mean as good, if you ask me,
as good as good as any other theory that's out there. He has.
He's opened my e eyes. You know. I've actually gone through changes or
my attitude about UFOs over the last fifty years that I've been involved with reading
and researching and offering information to the public about UFOs. And I remember when
I first started out, my attitude was, Oh, they must be from
Alpha Centauri. They must be from the playades or why not Zeta Ridiculive.
And my attitude was this technology must mean they have to be coming from other
planets. Now I've sort of modified that. I think that some UFOs,
like our old friend nuclear physicists Stan Friedman you used to say and says on
the album that we're talking about tonight. He starts it up by saying,
some UFOs are definitely, you know, intelligently controlled extraterrestrial vehicles. And I
believe that. I don't think all unexplained UFOs are that, because jeez,
as we now know, is there anybody out there who hasn't yet seen the
new images from the James Webb Space Telescope. They're just beautiful. Wow.
I mean this to me. If anyone ever says to me, hey,
what do you think is proof that we're not out, that we're not alone?
That's proof. Look at the images and what it's showing, and it
will make all of us seem so insignificant. I was going to say insignificant,
but maybe that's not the appropriate word to use, because I don't want
us to think that we're insignificant. But oh my god, the images are
now showing and the scientists are saying, without denying it, yeah, we're
definitely not alone because look at who our neighbors are. They're everywhere everywhere we
look now and now we can see right there, we're looking at a very
very tiny, tiny grain of sand image of outer space that shows thousands of
galaxies. And people have to understand if they don't know what a galaxy is.
We live on a planet. Our planet is one of several that is
in orbit around what we call the Sun. But the Sun is a star.
We know that galaxies are made up of billions and billions of stars,
and now astronomy is telling us those billions and billions of stars in each galaxy
contain they have planets orbiting them, and so the numbers are so it's not
scattered. It's just mind boggling. We almost can't seeve of what we're talking
about here that we I don't think anybody that logically thinks about this will say,
yeah, we're the only ones out here. Now, we couldn't possibly
been what a creator of the entire universe have only chosen our little planet among
other planets are going around one star among the billions and trillions of stars and
galaxies why would the creator have chosen only our little planet on which to put
intelligent life? Right? Can't agree, You can't agree. I always love
this Arthur C. Clark Um saying, a possibilities to exist, either we're
alone in the universe or we're not, both are equally terrifying. Yeah,
it's like, wow, we have to we have to grow up to the
possibility that we're not alone. And back in nineteen sixty eight, at the
at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs, in a textbook, a science
textbook that was only seen by Air Force cadets, you know, our future
military leaders. And the Science Physics textbook, which was called Introductory Space Science
Chapter thirty three was titled Unidentified Flying Objects. And in this chapter in nineteen
sixty eight, the Air Force described to their cadets very strong cases of where
humans, humankind, mankind has been reporting and interacting with unidentified objects going back
almost fifty thousand years. And they stay outlined and spelled us out to the
cadets. Well, if that's true, if humans have been seeing these things
in the skies and reporting these things, and people are now seeing and reporting
the same things, what are we talking about? Oh, it's it's it's
no longer valid to say, oh, it must be the angels of the
Lord, or it must be the gods. No, because we don't think
like that anymore. We think we think in terms of what we now know
is part of our own reality. Yeah, that's a really good point,
because you know, I mean there's uh, you know, the talk of
fairies and the talk of you know, all the way along lepre cons maybe
even that's you know, who knows. Yeah, but it kind of fits
the times whatever, Yes, societal times are. Um. So, I
you know, here's a question. I I don't believe in all these years
that we've talked and known each other, I don't believe I've ever asked you
this question. Oh maybe I have. But all right, are you an
American? No? Um? All right? What got you interested? I
know you started you were in the seventies. You're interest in this topic and
doing amazing work. We'll talk about that in a few minutes. But what
got your interest to very begin with? How old were you when you first
were fascinated with this topic. Well, I'm going to say that I first
began to hear about it in the news around around nineteen seventy seventy one,
when a book, actually, no, maybe a little earlier, the book
called The Interrupted Journey by John Fuller, in which he described the amazing story
of Betty and Barney Hill of New Hampshire. And I grew up in New
Hampshire, and in fact I went to college just a few miles south of
where their close encounter, abduction, whatever the incident was, happened. And
when the story broke, it broke first in New Hampshire and became a big
story before it went national, because it was really the first story of anyone
in America, I believe, where somebody actually claimed to have been abducted or
kidnapped and taken aboard either a ship or taken somewhere where they were they were
put under examination by some kind of beings. And there's that's probably an updated
version of the book from the original. And I became very very good friends
with Betty Hill. This was after Barney had passed away, and she and
I became friends in nineteen seventy five when I was working on my documentary record
that we'll talk about later, and just to meet her and to get to
know her and spend time with her and you, and I are also friends
with a woman who's probably the most knowledgeable expert in the whole Betty and Barney's
story would be Kathleen Martin. Kathleen who is an expert in her own right.
In people who are now who call, they're called experiencers, people who
have had the close encounter of the third kind experience. But what people don't
know unless you tell them is Kathy Martin was the niece of Betty Embarney Hill.
And so when Betty Embarney returned home having lost two hours of time somewhere
along the journey from Canada to Portsmith, New Hampshire, the first person that
Betty called when she got back to their home. She got on the phone
and called her sister, And on the other end of the line where her
sister was listening to this encounter story, was a young Kathy Martin who was
hearing her mother's side of the story. So Kathy was like the second person
to hear about this, and it's an amazing story. And I was living
in conquered New Hampshire at the time, and so Kathy and I didn't know
each other until later on in you know, in our lives, when we
met and became friends, the whole, the whole Benny and Barney Heels story.
So when the story broke, it really got my attention. Yes,
yeah, because I was still, you know, in nineteen seventy, I
was figuring out what I wanted to do with my life, and the only
thing I was interested in doing at that point was leaving New Hampshire, stuffing
a suitcase, grabbing my guitar, that's right, getting on a Trailways bus
in Conquer New Hampshire and going to New York City and trying to live the
life of a folk singer in Manhattan and to try and get a record deal.
Because and by the way, I know you're you're humble about this,
but Lee has some amazing He has an amazing voice, singing voice, and
beautiful, beautiful music. Really, I know it's not out there to share,
but you did share it with me, and I just want to say
I'm very very impressed. Well and my friend as well. Well. I
I thank you. You know, when you're when you're back in the seventies
or even the late sixties, when you when you were a folk singer making
the rounds of Greenwich Village in New York and you wanted to make a name
for yourself and get a recording contract, what you had to do was to
go to Greenwich Village and go to different clubs and the place that everyone always
had to go to. And I went my first week in New York.
There's a place called the Bitter End, very famous club where all of the
folk singers, going back to the Peter Paul Mary's, the Golden Lightfoots,
the Bob Dylan's. Yeah, all these people would always go to the Bitter
End. And you go there on the mic, the open mic night,
and I went there to do and you could invite anybody you wanted, if
you knew anybody in New York who might be interested in seeing you. And
I was so nervous knowing that, just the fact that I walked into the
Bitter End with my guitar, thinking what the hell am I doing here?
Maybe I should just go back to New Hampshire, give up the dream.
But no, I did like a four or five song set that they would
let you then to be like a smattering of applause. Yeah, and you
know, and you hope that maybe nobody ever heard you. All you ever
hoped for in a moment like that is are the strings in tune? That's
all you really hope for when that happens. All those were the days,
and but that landed you in New York, where you've sayed all these years.
Yeah. Yeah, And at one point in nineteen seventy three, I
was working a day job while still trying to get something happening with my music.
I was working at the biggest music store, a retail store in the
country called sam Ash Music, and I was a salesperson and I sold musical
instruments. One day, Jackson Brown walked in and I sold him two guitars,
and it was great to do that, and he was so happy with
the sale and what a great salesman I was with these guitars. He invited
me to come to see him do a show at Carnegie Hall that night,
and it was like an amazing thing. My name was at the stage door
at Carnegie Hall. They brought me up to his dressing room and there he
was tuning his guitar and sitting in the dressing room with Linda Ronstadt. Oh
my goodness. I don't remember much after that moment, missing time, yeah,
I know, but it was I was living for things like that.
But in nineteen seventy three, while I was doing this as a as a
salesperson, there something happened. Within the same week in October of nineteen seventy
three. Two UFO cases were so big and so important that they're still unexplained,
and they actually were paid attention seriously by the media. The case of
the two fishermen, Charlie Hickson and Calvin Parker, fishing on a pier off
the Pascagoula, Mississippi River in Mississippi, and something happened to them where they
claimed that they were taken on board some craft and they were examined. And
what was amazing about that case We've learned in years subsequent there were witnesses on
the ground who kind of saw this thing going on, and the media got
hold of it and it stuck. Doctor J. Allen Heineck, the astronomer,
used to be the scientific consultant to the United States Air Force Project Bluebook.
He was really convinced that there was something that case. And I was
at Samash Music one day selling things, and in the back of the store
there was a radio on on the local news channel, and I happened to
hear in the news about these two fishermen. I thought, well, that
was amazing, and I started paying more attention. And in the same week
over Ohio, a four man Army helicopter crew almost collided with a UFO that
they thought it was going to kill them. Larry Coin, Larry Coine,
Major, Larry Coin at the time, We're going to play a clip on
so I think this is a good segue, okay, and by continue on
but into what made you decide to do your your album? Well, that
that's the thing. I There were so many people that we're talking about UFOs,
and I started reading books and the first one of the first books I
got was called Beyond Earth Man's Contact with the UFOs, and it was written
by husband and wife Ralph and Judy Blum, and I knew at the time
from reading the book they had done a lot of interviews with astronauts, military
people and people in politics, law enforcement, scientists, and they were working
on what was then an NBC News white paper report, a news report about
UFOs. So I knew that he was connected with NBC in some way,
and I just loved their book and I wanted I wanted to meet him because
I thought, boy, I would like to hear the voices of the people
that I'm reading about in his book, and if there's a way that I
could do something like that, that would be amazing. But I didn't have
the right connections at the time to make a pitch anywhere to any record company.
And I knew at the time in the mid nineteen seventies CBS Columbia House
Records, which was a subsidiary of CBS Incorporated. They had they were doing
nightly infomercials, some of the first infomercials on TV in prime time, and
they were selling to viewing audiences recordings vinyl recordings of the famous hits of Mitch
Miller in The Gang, Montevani and the Strings, and if you order now
let us know if you want the vinyl record or if you want instead eight
track tape. We'll send you a chever when you want. So I thought,
well, this is great. No one's ever sold a record about UFOs,
and so I wanted to meet Ralph Blum and I figured out a way
of how to do it through NBC, and I was able to meet some
at NBC who who thought it would be a good idea. If if I
just was able to. They gave me his mail. They knew he was
out of town and they liked the idea. And there's Ralph and Judy's book
that you just showed there. And they said, we've been trying to get
a hold of Ralph to give him his mail because he's been gone a while
doing some work. Why don't we wrap it up for you and you can
bring it to him. And I said, it's a great idea. Thanks,
I'd love to do it. And so that day, same day,
I took a cab up to their apartment in New York City and rang the
bell and there was no answer, so I couldn't actually just give him the
mail. So I got the super of his building and said, I'm delivering
some mail for mister Blom. Kind of give it to you to give to
him. He said sure, So I wrote a little note to give with
the mail. Dear mister Blom, I'm a big fan of your book.
I've got an idea of a way to help promote your book with another idea
that I'm thinking of, I would love to meet you. Here's my telephone
number. Lei Spiegel and I gave all that stuff to his super and a
few days later my phone rang and I said hello, and I heard this
voice and said, are you Lei Spiegel? I said, yes, I
am. He said, this is Ralph Blum. Who the hell are you?
And how the hell did you get my mail? I'm thinking, Am
I in trouble here? Did I did? I not make the right decision?
My father loved what I did. What I did. Ralph said what
do you want? And I told him my idea and he said, well,
okay, let's meet. And from that point on we became friends,
and he had connections. Their book that you just showed was published by Bantam
Books, and so he knew all the people in publishing and production and marketing
at Bantam, and he had friends, and I had some friends in the
recording industry. So we worked it out to do a pitch to the people
at CBS of the idea of letting me, with Ralph's help, contact all
these people that were in his book. He gave me all their contact information
so that I could start calling them and ask them if they would be interested
in having me come to visit them wherever they were in the country and interview
them for a Vinyl documentary. Recording that I was going to produce for CBS,
and people said sure, and we worked out the deal so that if
they bought the record album from the TV commercial, we ended up having for
it. If you didn't like the album or the eight track tape, well
okay, you could send the album back to us, but keep the book.
Keep the Ralph Blum book as our gift. Don't. You don't see
much of that kind of stuff anymore. No, but it was first time.
It kind of became an instant classic in uphology that it was the first
time that a major recording company like CBS offered a UFO product to the public.
It was the first time that a UFO documentary was presented on TV in
a two minute infomercial. And it was one of the first UFO products that
doctor j. Allen Heineck chose that was offered for sale in the renowned Edmund's
Scientific catalog at the time. Edmund Scientific approached doctor Heineck and asked him if
he would choose some products related to UFOs because they wanted to devote an entire
section and page in their Science catalog, and so he chose a variety of
things like best books, He liked best slide shows, and mine was the
only record that was offered, and it was like, wow, it just
I couldn't believe my luck of getting that far so quickly. And so okay,
I came to New York with a guitar looking for a record contract,
and I finally got a record contract that had nothing to do with folk singing.
It was about chasing extraterrestrials. Go figure, Well, it's great,
and I'd like to I'd like to play a couple of clips. I'll shot
out. This is a from side one, okay, and so just for
the listener and the people watching live, it's just it's six and a half
minutes. The other one is about four minutes, but this is six and
a half minutes. I'll play it right now here it goes. October eighteen,
nineteen seventy three, a terrifying encounter takes place between a four man crew
aboard an Army helicopter and a UFO while the crew is en route to Cleveland,
Ohio, from Columbus. This mid air drama is witnessed by several ground
observers and it is considered to be one of the most impressive sightings in history.
The commander of the helicopter, Major Larry Coin, and his crew thought
at first that the light on the horizon was a radio tower beacon. The
crew chief on the helicopter observed a light, a red light on the east
horizon. He then informed me that the light was closing on the helicopter,
that it was coming at us on a collision course. And I looked to
the rights and I observed that the object became bigger and the lights became brighter,
and I began to descend the helicopter towards the ground to get out of
the collision course path, and this object continued to come directly at the aircraft.
It was like a missile locked onto the helicopter. It looked like we
were going to collide with it, and we braced the impact. Then I
heard the crewman in the back, so they look up and I did,
and I observed this craft stopped directly in front of us. It was hovering
right over the helicopter. We assumed it was a high performance fighter, but
when it stopped directly in front of us, all four of us realized was
no high perform at aircraft. This craft from the angle we saw it was
cigar chicked. These four men are trained military personnel with thousands of hours of
flying time behind them. What occurred next might seem like science fiction, but
it happened. We were seventeen hundred feet at this time. I was worried
we were going to hit the ground, and I looked at my altimeter and
the R helicopter was three thousand, five hundred seats climbing one thousand feet a
minute with no changes in the control. We went from seventeen hundred feet to
three thousand, five hundred feats in a matter of seconds and never knew it.
And there was a bumper like turbulence, at which time we had control
of the aircraft again. Then we continued on to Cleveland to encounter a UFOLD.
When it does approach the aircraft, you have no idea what it is,
so I think if it wanted a collide with us, it could,
but you can't get away from it. You don't have that much time to
respond. Some UFOs are really flying saucers, in other words, are really
somebody else's spacecraft. Intelligently controlled extraterrestrial vehicles. Stanton Friedman, nuclear physicist who
says we must keep open minds regarding the reality of UFOs coming from other planets,
they'd probably come from a variety of sources for a variety of purposes.
Certainly, there's an intelligence behind the maneuverability, and one of the places where
even people who want to believe in UFO has come a cropper, as they
don't understand the maneuverability. That's not mystery, it's technology. When somebody says
that that bit of UFO behavior is impossible, what they mean is I don't
know how to do that, and if I don't know how to do it,
it must be impossible. Well, that kind of approach is obviously ridiculous.
I mean, it's not scientific. In our own space program, many
UFOs have been reported by the astronauts. The first sighting took place in June
of nineteen sixty five on the Gemini four mission. Astronaut Jim mcdivott caught side
of a strange looking object out in space. At the time that I saw
it, I said, there was something half in front of me that out
inside the spacecraft that I couldn't identify, and I never have been able to
identify, and I don't think anybody ever will. We were in drifting flight
and my partner, Ed White, was asleep. Spacecraft was drifting around,
and as it was rotating around, I noticed something out in front that was
a white cylindical shape with a white pole sticking out of one corner of it.
It had about the same dimensional relationship as a beer can with a smooth
pencil sticking out one corner of it. I couldn't tell how close it was,
and I couldn't tell what the size was. I thought I might run
into it, so I turned on the flight control system and in the meantime,
I grabbed two cameras which were floating into spacecraft, and I grabbed one
and took a picture, and I let go of it, and I grabbed
the other one took a picture. As the sun shone on the window,
I could no longer see out, and the thing just disappeared. I never
did find out what it was, and nobody else ever did either. They
checked nor AD records to see what they had up on radar, and there
wasn't anything within a very close range of us. I've seen the photos that
were released, I've seen them published in magazines and newspapers. I went back
and went through each frame of all of the pictures that we took after the
flight, and there wasn't anything in there like what I had seen. General
mcdibbott has made it absolutely clear that NASA never did show him any pictures of
the object which he photographed her. Another astronaut, Colonel Gordon Cooper, originally
was assigned to a jet fighter group in Germany during the early nineteen fifties.
He recounts the day a group of circular objects passed over the airbase, a
weatherman spotted some strange objects flying apparently fairly high out here some large binoculars while
tracking a weather blown. Before long, the entire fighter group was out peering
through binoculars at these groups of objects coming over, and all in very strange
patterns. Was in when fighter formations, but unlike fighters, they would almost
stop in their forward velocity in chains nine degrees sometimes in their flight path.
We never could get close enough really to pin them down, but they were
round and shape and very metallic lucking. Personally, I believe in UFOs,
and my personal opinion is that I think that they are very likely travelers from
some other planet, if not in our galaxy and a neighboring galaxy, Vistors
from some planet that is hundreds of thousand years more developed than we are.
I think we can navigate equally as well as they do, but we certainly
don't have the sophisticated propulsion systems that they apparently do. Colonel Cooper also recalls
an incident that took place at the Edwards Air Force Base Flight Test Center in
California, and to this day the photographic evidence is unavailable, the case of
one that landed out on the dry lake bed right out from a number of
camera crews we had who found it, and the film was there and sent
forward to a safe keeping somewhere in Washington, never to be seen again.
We'll play a clip Lee from the other side, and a little bit.
So this is just a small clip. It's I think it's twenty some odd
minutes long. And this is just that was a six minute clip from one
side, twenty minutes twenty some odd minutes on each side, I believe rightly.
Yeah, And you know, Martin, really, for all these years,
forty four forty five years later, every time I hear any of these
clips or any of these voices, and it reminds me how fortunate I was
and how lucky I was to get to meet these people and to talk to
them and to have them say things about what they encountered that people are still
claiming to report today. It's like nothing has changed, that's the most important
thing. It's like, if I just decided to get involved in the UFOs
today in twenty twenty two, I might not have the passion about wanting to
remind people that this is nothing new that we're hearing about in the news.
It might be new to people who haven't really spent much time thinking about it,
but everybody needs to be reminded that this has been going on, Like
as the Air Force told the cadets, it's been going on for tens of
thousands of years, and it's so frustrating to me that nothing has changed,
and yet we get little bits and pieces. The government now just in the
last few years, has kind of acknowledged the reality of UFOs. The Navy
has shown us their little videos and now everybody's talking about that tic TAC videos,
the go Fast video, the Flear video. Oh wow, Okay,
the Navy is like chasing these things. And I keep wondering, now,
after all the decades, ever since the United States Air Force closed Project Bluebook,
in nineteen sixty nine, nineteen seventy and after decades of denying that anything
unbelievable happened at Roswell, New Mexico in nineteen forty seven, denial, denials,
denials all of a sudden when the Navy started talking about, just over
the last few years, about their own jet fighter pilots having encounters with UFOs
off the east coast, off the west coast. Now almost on a daily
basis, I'm saying to people, where's the Air Force? Why haven't we
heard from the air Force? Because technically, isn't the air Force protecting the
protecting the skies? Like, hello, air Force. It's almost as if
they're saying, you know what, we've had enough egg on our face for
a long time. What happen Navy deal with this? That's what I'm feeling.
I wonder it's it's been a puzzle, um why they have not you
know, I mean, you would think that it would they would be in
the in the front on this because it's it's the skies. I think the
Navy has done a great job. Yeah uh. And it's it's so weird
because you'd think that they that they would would want to do something like together.
Okay, Air Force, since we have jurisdiction over the skies, we'll
cover all the things in the skies. You Navy, you've got the oceans.
You cover the USOS, the unidentified submersible objects, so you know,
you do the That makes more sense, you know, let's work together.
But no, the Air Force, it's like nowhere to be seen. Oh
my god. Yeah, but I think that's all reporting. Now that they're
scoring, there are some changes so all the read there will not be the
stigma about reporting for the Air Force as well for all military from what I
understand right, I mean they're trying to make it more available to military personnel
who want to report something, give them specific roots and places to go to,
complete people to talk to. But it doesn't It doesn't solve the mystery
of what we're talking about and what we're dealing with here. I don't want
to know who to report something too. I want someone who's in command,
and I don't know if that's anyone who's in the United States or even in
any country. Maybe it's a United Nations thing, but I think what the
public really deserves or needs is some equilateral international voice thing or someone that speaks
for the nations of Earth, for all the citizens of Earth, to say,
all right, folks, now that we have sort of acknowledged the reality
of many UFOs, we're not just ridiculing people anymore. We're not making you
think that that thing that you saw the other night, that was zigzagging in
the sky, We're not going to try and make you believe that was Venus.
Venus doesn't behave that way. You know, We're not going to make
you feel like you don't know what you're talking about, and we're not going
to do We're not going to ridicule and ruin people's lives anymore like it used
to happen. We want to get rid of the stigma, and the only
way to do that is to say to you, we're looking into it.
We thought at first it might be Russia or China and some advanced technology,
but maybe we're not going in that direction because the properties associated with the phenomenon,
the maneuverability, the characteristics are all the same things that were described in
nineteen forty seven in a memo by Air Force General Nathan Twining to the Air
Material Command. And that was back then. They weren't even calling them UFOs
or flying sauces. They were known as flying discs. And and in that
that memo begins with the phenomenon reported is something real. It's not imaginary,
it's not made up. It has objects that approximate the size and characteristics of
man made aircraft that have incredible maneuverability. Blah blah blah, especially when approached
by a friendly aircraft. They're very evasive. Nineteen forty seven. I love
to remind people this was a real document in nineteen forty seven, seventy five
years ago. The military was talking behind the scene means about the things that
are still being encountered by the military. What is wrong with this picture?
That's right, I mean this this long ago. Yeah, and the military
talking about it. And yeah, a lot of a lot of people have
said, you know, along the lines of the more things change, the
more they stay the same type of oh yeah, you know, yeah,
I'm going to pull up that the twining membo, but I have it here.
I just have to convert it. Um, what about this album that
you have? Yeah, are you gonna are you going to be able to
offer that yes, so people can actually listen to it. And I do
have that other clip I'm going to play in just a minute. Okay.
My plan is that because it's still relevant. Everything that's on this album,
all the things that the people mentioned talked about, it's all relevant all these
years later, and a lot of people have been asking me if I'll ever
rerelease it. Yes, I'm going to soon rerelease it as like an anniversary
presentation. And what I will do, Martin, is as soon as I'm
ready to go with that, I will let you be one of the first
people that will offer it to you, to offer it to your your listeners,
and then we'll put it out there. We'll post all kinds of notices
about it. We'll do it through the unexed network that I'm on. But
once I make the decision to do this, I really want people to hear
this because every time I hear it, and god knows how many times I've
heard it now overtheless, you know, five decades, I keep thinking,
oh my god, this is still this is still relevant. Now. You
obviously were right there when these people were talking. Right, Oh yeah,
just some icons here, j Alan Heinike of course, who you knew who
had a friendship with, but you know, Gordon Cooper. I think he
was an amazing guy. I thought he was wonderful, and several other people.
And I'm going to play your side too. This is a shorter clip.
This is only about four minutes on this one. Right here, here
we go, Congressman J. Edward Roush, The people shouldn't be told.
I think there's nothing which is more frightening than to be confronted with something that
is new, particularly in this area. And through knowledge we can perhaps relieve
the fears of a lot of people. I want to know, I should
know. I deserve to know. And this curiosity which I have and which
is whetted by the various sightings, is such that I want to pursue it,
just as I think the great majority of the American people would like to
pursue the question in order to come to the place where they have an answer.
Major Donald Kehoe, this thing is building up rapidly. You have publicity
constantly, almost every day, there's something on TV or there's a side report.
There should be a plan and operation, a gradual teaching of the public
what these things are building. All up to the more serious aspects, but
in emphasizing that there is no proof of any danger, that's the way it
should have been done long ago. Astronaut Gordon Cooper. I think people are
prepared for it if it were done in the right manner. But I think
likewise the same way that a lot of people don't believe anything about UFOs because
of some of the totally absurd treatises that have come out on them. Everyone's
afraid of the unknown. But the more they know about them, the more
that we have the likelihood of somebody treating some of these with a little friendly
or fashion and perhaps less frightened fashion, maybe we can begin to find out
more about them. Astronaut Jim mcdippick. There are an awful lot of stars
in our universe, and our star our son has a lot of planets around
it, and it would seem highly egotistical. I think that if we thought
that we were the only planet in the entire universe that had life on it,
and I can't imagine myself that there aren't environments throughout that entire universe and
are in some way similar to ours. Missus Betty Hill. Knowledge belongs to
everyone. I don't think anyone has the right to censor, or deny or
prevent anyone from learning. I think the people have the right to know because
you have bows. As everybody's business. Doctor j Alan Heineck. Alert would
depend on how the news was broken to us. What is the whole point?
If something is so good, Heavens, we should be mature enough to
know that. The situation is we're just now beginning to explore beyond our own
planet. It's not inconceivable that other civilizations could have already begun their exploration of
other planetary systems, including our own Solar system. It is, after all,
one of the objectives of our space program to seek out and study other
forms of life. I urge you to keep an open mind about UFOs and
the probability of the existence of other intelligent life throughout the universe, because it
is there. Think about that the next time you gaze up at the stars
in a clear night, Gaze long and hard. The credibility factor of UFOs
needn't stretch the imagination too far. I'll get to it. That was great,
you know. With every person who I interviewed on that album, I
was sitting there on the other side of the microphone, and while they were
answering my questions, I kept thinking to myself, God, please, somebody
pinch me. This is great stuff I'm getting. Nobody's going to believe this.
And here's another thing that people don't realize. You know, when you
do an interview with someone, I mean you're not just going to meet them
for ten or fifteen minutes. You're going to sit with them for a while,
spend a day with them and get a lot of really good information in
an interview. I can't block them. And and like you, you do,
you edit down to the most interesting, relevant stuff to put on a
forty five minute album. And I still have all the original interview tapes that
has stuff on them that no one no one has ever heard. I haven't
even listened to these recordings in almost fifty years, so there's a lot of
stuff there that is just sitting there waiting to be heard. And that's one
of the reasons that it's almost forcing me to re release this to give I
guess a new generation to people, maybe another piece of credibility in the UFO
field that maybe it wasn't there. So I'm proud of it. Have always
been proud of this. And if it wasn't for this record album, I
never would have made it to the United Nations without this album. Yeah,
let's talk a little bit about that. That that is just totally amazing to
me. Well after after the album came out in nineteen seventy six, and
and we we sold some copies of it, and it did pretty well.
And several months went by and I started thinking, well, okay, I've
done this album? What left is there for me to do? I mean,
really, you know who am I? I mean, you know what
else I think I can do? And I thought, boy, I would
like to reach a larger audience somehow, if possible. And a couple of
people friends of mine and said, well, why don't you take it to
the United Nations? And I thought, I don't know United Nations really,
And then others said to me, no, you you You can't just go
to the United Nations and knock on the front door and say hello, may
I come in and talk to someone about doing a presentation here about UFOs And
either a they would politely ask you to leave, or they would impolitely have
you arrested for even thinking of such a thing. And someone else said to
me, the only way you can do a presentation at the United Nations is
if you are a citizen of a country that is interested in this topic and
wants to do a presentation and sponsor it for the country. And I thought,
well, okay, and I did some digging, and in nineteen seventy
eight, the little country of Grenada was the only game in town. No
other country, honor, was doing anything to open up the subject of UFOs.
But there in like early nineteen seventy seven, I started noticing every once
in a while the Prime Minister of Grenada, Eric Gary, was doing these
little speeches and press conferences and trying to get the media and the un interested
in his personal UFO crusade. He wanted to create some kind of a of
a UFO committee that that would be open internationally for all countries of the world
to to share information and and just you know, share it with each other,
and that he wanted the country of Grenada to be the clearinghouse. Let's
have this little committee happened in my country. And I'm thinking, no,
it's an interesting idea, but no, I wouldn't want to I wouldn't want
to open it in the Grenada if we can't even get that far. And
so but again, nobody was doing anything about UFOs. So I am going
to touch with the with the Grenade the Mission. As you probably know,
every country in the United Nations, they have their own offices in and around
the United Nations area on the East side of New York, and they're called
missions. Each country has its own mission. And so I just got in
touch with the country of Grenade and Mission, and I got one of the
ambassadors on the phone, introduced myself and said that I'm only Spiegel. I
just recently finished producing a recording a documentary record album for CBS. I wanted
to say that so they would understand that I did something for a large company,
and I would like to present my album to your Prime Minister as a
gift because I have an idea of something that I could do that could help
him and you in your country to be heard by the United Nations. And
they said, come on down, bring your album down. Knock, come
on down Grenada, but come on down to our mission. Take a subway
it comes to yes, and I did. I brought a copy of the
album when it was still a vinyl album, and they were very nice to
me and they were going to forward the album to Grenada to the Prime Minister
and they said they'd get back to me, and a couple of weeks later,
one of the ambassadors called me and said that Prime Minister Gary was coming
to New York soon to be knighted as Sir Eric Gary in a big ceremony
at the UN. Would I like to be there? Would I like to
come and be part and watch the ceremony because the Prime Minister would like to
talk to you about your idea? And I said yes, I would love
that very much, thank you. So in the meantime, I put together
an actual proposal, a proposal of what I would like to do at the
United Nations. Who I would bring, what I would show there, how
I would do it, what the timeline of should be. And I brought
this proposal with me to the UN. And it was the first time I
ever set foot in the United Nations for the caronation the nineteenth of Sir Eric
Gary. It was a whole big deal. It was very nice to be
there. When it was all over, they brought me into a private room
and then they brought the Prime Minister in and they left us there alone.
And I remember thinking, why would they leave that the leader of their country
alone with this guy? Exactly? It's like, wait, a minute.
Okay, you know, am I being watched? You must have been,
hey, Lee, Just so let you know we only have one minute for
kgra A Radio. Okay, to continue on, but just let you know,
okay. Well, and so that's kind of how it all started.
Over a handshake deal. Eric Gary agreed to sponsor my proposal and I became
an actual delegate of Granada. They issued me a delegate's card, which made
me officially a sponsor of Grenada and allowed me to go to the UN whenever
I want through the main gates of security to have meetings with people. And
because of what I was doing there, word got back to the State Department
of Washington, we later learned, and they were also keeping an eye on
what I was doing with the people that I was bringing to the United Nations.
And then all right, so we're just going to say goodbye right now
to the people at KGr A Radio. If you're watching on Facebook or YouTube
hanging there, we'll be right back. Yeah. Great, So we're continuing
on here. I forgot to announce that next week's guest I wanted to tell
the people over at KGr A Radio. But before I forget, we have
Frank Marchus. He's the senior planetary astronomer at SETI Institute. He'll be on
next week, so it should be a very interesting show, and we are
going to talk about UFOs and SETI together somehow. I have a question for
you to ask him. Okay, the question is why doesn't city Why don't
city scientists, especially astronomers, why don't they like to talk about UFOs in
general? What is the overall opinion of city of UFOs? Oh? I
had Seth Shostack on three. Yeah, and he basically told me that,
and some people are pretty angry about it. But he's a very good debater,
by the way. And he told me that if you had a wing
of the Smithsonian with UFO parts, then maybe he would believe that they exist.
And so I basically said, does this threaten your your your ability to
fundraise for said he is that why you don't want to talk about it?
You know, I asked some questions like that, and you know, he
was very good at working around the question. Yeah, and he was very
good at, you know, kind of making me feel like a fool for
asking some of the questions I did. But you know, now he's part
of the Galileo project with Avi Loebe. So I wonder how that's all going.
Well. You know, I don't know who told me this, but
several months ago, when I first read that his name was associated with the
Galileo project, someone else told me that he's not actually really a part of
it. I don't know that he was even invited by doctor ave Lobe.
I mean, it could be wrong, but seth shots tacks overall opinion about
UFOs is that until, like until the Smithsonian has pieces and parts from a
UFO or flying saucer, then there's no evidence at all that we should even
consider that something from far away is visiting us. They just won't consider that.
And ave Lobe's opinion is we think that something has come past us,
and that there might be other things that indicate that we are not alone.
And I wouldn't think that they would want anyone in that study, the Galileo
study, or the project to be tossing in sentences like no, there is
no evidence that there's any life out there. All that we're doing is just
putting all of our money and our funding into listening with our little radio telescopes
and find a signal. And then you say to them, Okay, what
if we do get a signal from somewhere and it's maybe like a two or
three words like hi, and we can actually get that signal and we can
figure out a way of replying like hi back to you. How long would
that exchange take? How many more decades would it be to get to the
third exchange? And there'll be none of us left on earth anyway? Who
are talking about this now? And it's like really? And I once did
a project with doctor Frank Drake, who created the SETI Institute. We worked
on a radio show together and we were alone in a conference room and I
said to him, Frank, I know how the SETI Institute normally likes to
avoid talking about UFOs, and how do you feel about it? And he
said to me, well, I haven't really been shown anything by officials that
would make me consider that thing is here. And I said, but Frank,
they're landing in people's backyards. And does that mean that everyone who makes
these kinds of reports are lying that they're out of their minds, They're they're
crazy, they're they're just totally out of out of reality. We can't continue
to have that attitude about people there has to be a new attitude that requires
science looking at this there's too much going on. And I even reminded him,
like I do all the time, Frank, have you ever heard of
General Nathan twenty nineteen forty seven memo? I mean, come on, this
is nothing new. I'm glad you asked those questions. Anyway, you know,
and you know I've I've talked to us. I talked to Stan Freedman
many times about said he and you know, and he had that I forget
what he called the silly I forget what he had a great phrase for.
But anyway, um, you know, it's better than doing nothing them,
Yeah, at least looking. But I mean for them to actually find a
radio signal. We have no idea how they would communicate, That's right.
I have no idea when and how, um, different society levels can pass
by each other, you know, for technology or what type of technology?
You know? Are they so far advanced that they're using something that radio signals
are passe for for thousands of years? Who knows? But um, if
they find something, I think the James Webb has more of a chance in
finding something than um. With the atmospheres, they will be able to detect
um, you know, pollutions and atmospheres, I believe by colors or something.
Yeah. About about a week ago, one of the one of the
first images that came back from the webbe was an image that they said they
would definitely now able to to know one of the large exo planets around a
far Sunum. It now shows definitely that it has water in its atmosphere,
and we didn't know that before before James Webb got got turned on. So
now it's not to say that this planet has life on it or what kind
of life it is, but the fact that we're that much closer to even
knowing. But again then you have to you have to ask the next question.
Okay, well, so let's say we find whatever maybe is the closest
exo planet to Earth that maybe has possible life on it. So what is
my my question? How do we get there? We we currently don't have
the technology, the the Star Trek or the Star Wars technology warp speed hyper
drive to get us there in a couple of minutes. We don't have that.
But it's like every time Stanton Friedman used to do a lecture, he
would always say to his audiences he would say, all of the skeptics,
the naysayers, the debunkers, they all live by the same mantra, and
that mantra is don't bother me with the facts. My mind is already made
up. Or he would say another one you would say, as he says
on the album, when somebody says that that bit of UFO evidence is impossible,
what they're really saying is, I don't know how to do that.
So so if I don't know how to do it, that means nobody else
knows how to do it either. And how long have we been with technology
that can fly in the skies? I mean we're talking white brothers or pre
write brothers with aircraft, But hasn't been more than two hundred years that we've
had flying ality technology. So let's say any other planet somewhere out there that
maybe, oh, let's give them five hundred years ahead of us, Oh,
let's let's be let's be nice, give them a thousand years ahead of
us. Do you think someone who's a thousand years ahead of us now has
the ability to do some hopscotching through wormholes or better yet, time travel.
The whole Michael Master's idea of many UFOs could be us, our descendants using
time travel technology in the distant future to come back in time to study their
own past. Gotta love that. Yeah, yeah, I do love that.
I think that is a fantastic thought. So I was. I actually
got to see the James Webb telescope as it was being built. Oh cool,
And yeah, I took a bunch of pictures just looking for them.
Now I have them somewhere. You know, people are all dressed up in
there like Hazmatt white suits and yeah, you're very very careful this time because
you know the Hubble space craft, I mean the Hubble telescope. When that
went up, it had two microns were often the mirror, which caused blurrness.
Now that Webb had a like a folding type of mirror, which is
really amazing. That everything worked perfectly because they only had one shot at a
million miles away. That's right, There's no way we could ever get to
it to work on it exactly. So we had the one shot and can
you imagine with the billions of dollars, I think it went way over budget.
They kept having to raise the stakes on that to make sure that it's
at a very cold temperature something like three hundred below zero fahrenheit, and it
it has to maintain that cold temperature in order to work properly. So there's
a shield for the sun. There's all these different things that are involved.
It's really amazing technology, I know, and they I think that. I
read an earlier report that once it got out there and it unfolded and was
getting going through all of its early testing, that there were a few instances
where micro micro micro meteoroids had hit it, you know, yep, but
didn't They're going like forty some one thousand miles an hour, yeah, you
know, and a bullet travels out of fraction of that. It's like,
so the amount of money and the amount of risks, but so far the
rewards have been incredible so far. I hope we get the twenty years plus
out of it. That would be just amazing. Yeah. There's someone in
chat that has asked over and over again. I'm not familiar with this person.
Maybe it's the first time he's visiting. Welcome anyway, Ray Nash.
He wants to know why there aren't any interviews with Max Brazil Mac Brazil.
Is it mac Brazil from roswell Well? I don't the interviews. I've never
seen one. I don't know, m I I have heard, I have
heard audio interviews that he had done, um possibly with like one of the
local Roswell radio stations. But I believe that he did them under the under
the watchful eye of whoever was in charge of keeping things quiet on what it
was it crashed on the ranch there in Roswell, because once once he went
to the military and you know, started saying, this thing landed, and
I've got these pieces and and I'm going to go to the to the authorities,
or I'm going to go to the press and talk about it. Well,
then you know, the authorities as they did the day after the initial
famous Roswell Daily Record report, you know, military captors UFO or Flying Saucer.
And the very next day, Nope, it was a weather balloon.
Sorry, we goofed. You don't make that kind of a goof. And
so I think that in order to keep mac Brasil quiet without actually out and
out making him disappear, was probably a way of allowing him to do some
interviews. I would bet Martin that if you, if you or anyone would
just do an actual Google search for for any kind of audio clips from mac
Brasil and you know, you know who else might be the person to talk
to you about this, Dave Marler. I think we might have an archive
of it. He Dave Marla has the most incredible UFO facility of research in
his at his Albuquerque home. I've been to the place. It's in fact.
Upon his demise, hopefully not too soon, everything he has is going
to go to the University of New Mexico. He already has. He is
now the curator of the complete Nightcap original files, the complete j L and
Heineck personal UFO files. All that stuff was shipped to him over a year
ago so that he can take everything, and he's in the process now of
digitizing everything. I think I'm gonna have to go visit him. You're gonna
have to go visit him and maybe even broadcast one of your shows that I
would like to do that. It's will to talk to him about that,
and I know he'd love to have me out there. I'm up and I'm
going to be in Shag Harbor in October. I'm going to do a talk
up there, so that should be a lot of fun. And Dave and
I are going to be hanging out together. Oh, that should be a
lot of fun. Oh good, Yeah, Now I want to I want
you to. I know you've talked about this many times on my show,
but it's so incredible. This guy has been patient asked right from the very
beginning if you would talk about this, and it's right here, could you
talk about your amazing sighting in North Carolina the de Rito. Well, I
know you've told him many times, but I love hearing it every time because
it's just amazing. Okay, And at some point I'm going to ask you,
but not not yet, I ask you to put one of those two
pages up on the screen again, that that you were showing before at the
end of both of the clips that you're ate. I do have that,
okay, but don't put it up yet. Okay. I'll cue you for
that one, Okay. In nineteen seventy five, while I was in New
York putting together the interviews for my UFOs The Credibility Factor record album, I
got a call one day from doctor Henik at the Center for UFO Studies,
and he told me that he was getting a variety of phone calls from sheriff's
people. Highway patrolman police officers from the Lumberton, North Carolina area, and
they were seeing something odd in the skies for like two or three nights in
a row, and a lot of police officer, a lot of police and
law enforcement agencies and departments around the country were all given an eight hundred number
that Alan Heinek had provided them all with through the Center for UFO Studies.
Basically said, I'm Alan Heinik. I used to do this for Project Bluebook.
Now I have the Center for UFO Studies. I'd like to provide you
free of charge with an eight hundred number. If you folks get inundated with
the calls in your area, give us a call. We'll see you.
We can do it to help. And so the Lumberton police officials contacted them
and said, we don't have any people down here that can investigate this.
Can you come and help us with this? And he asked me, he
said, I know that you're working on your UFO album, but do you
have any time to go down to Lumberton and check it out? And could
you do some interviews down there with people who are seeing this strange object?
So I said, what are they seeing? He said, well, here
in nineteen seventy five, they're reporting something that we haven't really heard much about
in recent history. They're seeing something. They're saying it's either a V shaped
or a triangular shape or boomerang shaped object in the sky. So I said,
okay, let me get this straight. Instead of a classic flying saucer
circular shape, you know, flat on the bottom, domed on top,
you're asking me to go there and check out a flying dorito. Is that
what we're what we're getting at here? He said, well, if you
don't want to go, and I said, Allan, don't finish that thought.
You're you're the last person in America I want to piss off. I'm
going. I'm definitely going. And he said, look, if you get
some really good interviews and write up a report, I'll publish them through the
Center for UFO Studies. And I said that great, thank you, and
off I went and actually flew down to North Carolina with one of the reporters
for the National Star newspaper, which was competing with the National Enquirer back then
in nineteen seventy five. And I got there. I flew into Fayetteville and
was picked up by someone from Lumberton. They drove us down and instead of
checking into the local holiday inn, we went right to the Sheriff's department and
that's where I met Sheriff's deputy and dispatcher Ron Thompson, who I'm still in
touch with all these years later. And Ron Thompson was on the dispatcher board
that night, and I was there for a while talking to a variety of
people, and all of a sudden, after the sun went down, the
calls started coming into the to the board and he said to me, we've
got a lot of calls coming in. Let's go. And I said,
well, tell me what we're gonna do. He said, You're gonna come
with me in one car. We're gonna have a police radio. We're going
to keep in touch with the other police officers in different places, and we're
going to stay in touch and see where this thing is being seen, and
we'll follow it and try and catch up to it. And that's what we
did, and off we went in pursuit of the flying Derritou and I was
I was really excited because I didn't know what to expect, you know,
I mean, what could you expect in a situation like this? But just
a few minutes later, we're off in the wild and it's there in the
rural area outside of Lamboton, North Carolina. And we pulled up in front
of this field and everybody out of the cars and turned off the car lights
and the entrance and it was very quiet out there, and the only sound
that we could hear in the area was a sound of animals that were very
nervous about something. You could hear horses in the documents. You can hear
dogs barking there's something that was bothering them. And there were there was no
moon out to cast any kind of glare, and so we could see stars.
And as we looked across the field in front of us, there was
a line of trees and from the left side, moving very slowly from our
left to our right, there was a white light and then it became a
red light, and then back to white and back to red, just very
slowly above the tops of the trees, moving and then at one point it
stopped and started moving again across the field in our direction, and we just
stood there and watched it as it came across the field, getting closer and
closer. Well, that's that's actually, you can keep that one up there
for now, but that's not the one yet. But that's good because as
it got closer to us, that's kind of what it looked like as it
got close to us and it stopped. Remember it was it wasn't just daylight.
It was darker at the time. It had a row of white lights
up one side underneath and red lights with a larger light at the apex where
the two sides came together. And it just hovered there in the air above
us, and it made no noise. There was no sound. There was
no engine, no humming, nothing. It just sat there in the sky
above us. And I remember thinking, well, I feel pretty secure.
I'm surrounded by Sheriff's people. How are we patrolman? They got their six
shooters ready, you know, just in case. And then a moment later,
I'm thinking, wait, what am I thinking? What am I saying
to myself? How how confident and safe do I feel? Because if whatever
we're looking at up there is here to eat us or to take us away
to eat us later, you know, um, then then you know we've
had it. And so I didn't I wasn't scared because I was excited about
it, and then and then as we watched it, and are you getting
ready to show the other picture that I can't find the other picture. And
I always sent it to me. No, no, no, I mean
you everywhere you had it up before. At the end of the clips,
it was there were two pictures. Oh, this one right here. Okay,
now, okay, if you can zoom in on the can't zoom in
that's how okay. Painting on the bottom right hand corner. Yeah, kind
of depicts the situation. Yeah, you can. You can see the thing
in the sky and what you're seeing there is from the bright light on the
top of it. It shot this beam of light down to the ground and
in the middle of the ground there you can see one of the figures there
with his arms outstretched. That was me. That the that the painter Dale
Hendrickson painted me there to indicate that that's how close I was to this beam
of light that hit the ground in front of us. And the beam of
light was only there for a couple of seconds, and then it went back
up into the craft again, still no sound. Then the whole thing turned
almost like an amber color and started moving quickly away in another direction. The
whole thing turned it. Yeah, it was like it was like, it's
not a good picture, but this is a Dale Hint that Dale Hendrickson.
He's a great by the way, he's an amazing painter of outer space scenes.
And he called me one day a few years ago and asked me to
describe what I thought was the most amazing moment of our encounter. And I
described this moment, and he said, would you like it if I could
paint that kind of a moment and maybe offer it and show it at UFO
conferences are on the country as Yeah, I think that would be great.
And I said to him, would you like it if I connect you with
Chef Sheriff's deputy now retired, Ron Thompson, who was standing next to me
when that thing was in the sky above us, because let him tell his
version of the story, you might as well get two people talking about it.
And I connected him with Ron, and from both of our stories,
he came up with that and it's quite nice. I've seen that in person
here. I just found another rendition of it, but it's it's pretty much
clear there. And you look like the guy that looks like Serpico, right,
yeah, yeah, I think you were told that a few times.
Yeah, a few times, so ciprocal or if you will, because of
the folksinger Cat Stevens, Okay, Cat Stevens. Yes, that's a little
better, better of a picture up. But anyway, that is just an
amazing story. It is. It's an amazing calling. Because there was another
officer and another location that got out of his car and flashed a light at
it or something. Yeah, we kept finding other police officers in different counties,
and we stopped at one place and found two police officers who were out
of their car, and they knew that we were coming because everybody was connected
by police radio. And they said to me, we saw this thing coming
down the road in our direction and it got to ride above our car and
without stopping, without stopping on a dime, it made a ninety degree angle,
quick turn and went flying off. And I've talked with people who said,
if there was anything living inside this thing, they could not have withstood
that kind of an immediate change of direction. But against you were talking,
this is what we think, based on our knowledge exactly of how we would
react in a technology that we don't know anything about. One thing I'd like
to ask you, Lee do you think there was Just because it's something I
hear now and then, and it's probably a kind of a weird thing to
say, but do you feel there was any time dilation of any kind?
No, not that I either know of or ever experienced. I don't think
anyone else did either. I think the whole idea of what we experienced,
and it wasn't just that night. I was there, maybe on the third
or fourth night when this was happening. I often, like people will often
ask me, why don't the UFOs just show themselves everywhere and just you know,
appear over the cities like in War of the World's or you know,
or Independence Day or whatever. And I keep saying to people, well,
they have been showing themselves a lot. And and my response to them is
if the UFOs didn't want to be seen, especially at night, all they
have to do is turn their lights off. I mean, you know,
an end of topic. But they want to be seen. They know they're
being seen. How could they not. They know what they're doing, and
they've always known throughout history. They're not trying to hide from humans. They
know what they're doing for whenever their reasons. I mean, really, I
can't think of any other way to respond to that, And so I think
that wherever they show up, you know, they showed up. They hovered
above us, shot a beam of light down, as if as if to
say. When the beam went back up and it turned and went away,
it was as if it was saying to us, yeah, okay, I'm
done with you guys. I'm gonna go screw around with someone else now.
So we after it. After it left, I found a police chief sitting
in his car beside the road, and he knew I was coming to ask
him some questions. So I asked him, I understand you had a little
excitement here. He said, yeah. I was sitting in the car eating
my sandwich, and the whole inside of my car was lit up with some
bright light. I said, what did you do? He said. I
looked out, looked up at the sky, and there was this thing parked
in the sky right above my car. And made me think, Although no,
I was gonna say, it made me think of the moment in Close
Encounters of the Third kind when Richard Dreyfus is in his truck. Yeah,
and he does that, But then I realized, no. In nineteen seventy
five, Lumberton. That was two years before the movie came out, exactly.
Yeah, And this police officer was doing that looking up yeah, And
so I said him, what did you do? Then he said, well,
I've reached the back of the car pulled out. We had this official
when whenever there's we need like an official light for any emergencies on the roads,
we have this big police lantern. And I aimed it up at the
thing and I blinked at it and it blinked back at me. You know
how many times I've heard that? You heard that Father Gilt case. Oh,
yes, there's that so many times, Papua New Guinea. Yes,
there's one case where I heard of. I was speaking about this recently on
the show where the person was doing like the flashing and then he thought,
all right, now I'm thinking I'm going to flash, and the thing reacted
to it. That's reacted to him thinking about it. That. You know,
when I say that's funny, I don't really mean it's funny. There
are so many cases. Maybe maybe we didn't know about these cases in earlier
years, but now you hear about We're a lot of the UFO phenomenon is
tied into the paranormal yea and things that people describe like that that involves thought
processes or consciousness, and more and more of these stories are coming out that
says to me, people aren't just making this stuff up. They're really experiencing
things that have nothing to do with what they're seeing. It has a whole
other possibility. There were stories that came out of the nineteen eighty Rendells from
forest encounter, the Ventwater's case, where so many military eyewitnesses saw things in
and out of the forest, and there were reports that some of them saw
something that was on the ground, and some claims that some of the military
personnel got close to the object and with the closer they got to it,
thing moved out of the way. It didn't fly out of the way,
It just moved away like a living thing would just moved and didn't want to
be touched. Like WHOA, So what are we dealing with here? There's
a lot more to It's more than just something that looks like a flying saucer
or a dorito. There's something more happening here, And for what it's worth,
there's a big part of me now that's thinking, maybe this is the
reason why the governments of the world haven't been entirely honest or totally transparent with
the public about what's going on, because maybe this is a little more serious
than what most people would be able to handle. I never used to think
that, you know, it's that whole thing. Well with the public panic.
I don't know if panic is the right word, but well, is
the public ready to be told what's really behind the phenomenon? Do you think
they do? You think they actually know? I think that the governments of
the world no more than they're saying they are, probably no more than we
do. Yes, yeah, but I think that there could be a reason
why they're not saying anything more about it, because because once one leader of
some major country goes forward and says, oh, we're going to just release
this, well, then the cats out of the bag, the Pandora's box
is open, and then what do you do? Then? How do you
respond? How is it going to affect religion? What does the Vatican think
about this? Why does the Vatican have two different places where they have astronomical
observatories and they have teams of Vatican astronomers and quite amazing looking looking looking into
the heavens. What are you looking for why? Yeah, come on,
I mean someone's got to ask these questions, and that's my job. It
seems to me that I either had someone or I spoke with someone one of
the astronomers at one time. I don't think I had him on the show.
I think i'd remember that, but I was trying to, I believe,
which would be really fascinating. And that's it somewhere in the United States,
that particular telescope Arizona. It's Arizona. Yeah, yeah, it's a
Zona mountain in Arizona. I just think it's all fascinating. I think that
I'm going to have Colonel Chuck Holt is going to be on my show on
Thursday night. Yeah, he was one of the primary witnesses at the Rendelshom
encounter in nineteen eighty and he's going to talk about how he believes that there
is a slow disclosure going on. And I'm going to say to him,
okay, but who's in charge of how slow should this be? What will
determine when the slowness of it has to stop? Great questions. I can't
wait to watch that. I've had Charles on a number of times, and
yeah, I hope to have him back. He's always he's always a great
guest. He's got a lot to say, yes, and he doesn't mind
the controversy of what he has to say, and I appreciate that. I
respect him for that. And he's one of these people that wish had never
happened. Yeah, he's very sincere about that. Yeah, so because if
he didn't need it as a part of his life, and he's told me
that he's put it away for a while sometimes, you know, kind of
put it off so he didn't have to deal with it. But it always
he always comes back to it. It always comes back to him. Actually,
he told me decades ago when we first met. He said to me,
all of that will tell you right now is that when when the truth
finally comes out and the public is told what's really going on, it's going
to change reality as we know it. And when he said that to me,
I went, Okay, I accept that, and that's a great way
to end this eve an interview with him. But it was like, wow,
and I believe that. I think that it will change reality. And
maybe he's right that it'll have to be it must be slow disclosure. But
on the other end of that, what is it that they're going to disclose
that requires it to happen slowly? You know, I don't know yet.
Yeah, yeah, I think. Also, someone said something like that,
and I'm trying to remember. Lou Alesando said it's been happening, you know,
I mean, and I know you have you recently I had a meeting
with him. Yeah, I know, you can't really talk about that,
but anyway, I think it's interesting and I feel definitely that there's been a
lot of changes. And I've been doing this for over ten years. In
the last three years there's been some major changes in the attitude. In general.
It's an easy talk to talk about these days, nothing you want to
worry too much about talking about and being embarrassed about. And I like that.
I like that a lot because I don't feel like the total odd uncle
or whatever you want to say, you know, the oddballum. And in
a conversation, I've always thought of you as my oddball uncle. Nephew,
Oh, nephew, that's true, that's right, That's why i'd be the
uncle. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's right. You're just a
little older. Hey, Lee, Um, so we're at the I told
you an hour and a half to night and we're at the end of that.
And so how and did you say halt is coming up this Thursday,
this Thursday night? All right, so tell people how they can get a
hold of that and watch that. Okay, well it's going to be on
UM. All they have to do is go to nxnetwork dot com. It's
un X network dot com. Uh. And if they do forward slash stream
s t R E A M so it's it's like unex network dot com forward
slash stream that will take them directly to the page. That is the page
where you can just click on the plate button and hear whatever is on the
air live at that moment. Yeah. So it's seven o'clock, seven o'clock
from seven to eight thirty Thursday, and that's seven to eight thirty Eastern time.
That's right, Lee. I've really enjoyed our friendship over these years,
as I always have fascinating guests. I love having you on and I wish
you all all the best, and please do let us know when and how
that album will be available. I will definitely get the word out there.
Thank you, Thank you so much for having me on tonight. I love
talking about this stuff. Yes you do. I hope I don't come across
like like an oddball relative. No, no, I don't think I'll get
that feedback. No, but anyway, all my best to you, and
thank you so much. Thank you, thank you Martin. All right,
take care right, all right? Everyone, So again next week we will
have let's see Frank Marches he's the senior planetary astronomer at the SETI Institute.
Again, the start time is going to be seven as it was tonight.
And thank you all for watching. And anyone can support the show, and
that's over at podcast ufo dot com to support the show, and I would
appreciate that, and do appreciate all the listeners and I appreciate everyone that does
support the show. And we'll see you next week. Remember to keep your
eyes to the sky.