WEBVTT

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And now a reading from his word
Mark four eleven and twelve. He told

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them the secret of the Kingdom of
God has been given to you and to

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those on the outside. Everything is
said in parables, so that they may

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be ever seen but never perceiving,
and ever hearing but never understanding, otherwise

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they might turn and be forgiven.
So like, does Jesus not want everyone

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to be saved? Why would he
perfectly speak in a way that not everyone

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would be able to understand. I
thought God sent Jesus to save everyone,

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not just those who understand parables.
If you can make sense of this passage,

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then please give us a call,
because the show is coming right now.

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Welcome to Talk Heathen. Today is
Sunday, July sixteenth, twenty twenty

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three. I am your host,
Christy Powell, and joining me today is

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the off Disgust rarely seeing Kenneth,
who was discussing, Oh my God,

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hey good here. I mean,
it's fun remembrances, little anecdotes, you

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know, just wondering how it's going. Where you've been, I mean,

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how you've been doing, buddy.
I've been doing really well. I've been

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I've been parenting a lot on weekends, which frankly beats, you know,

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posting shows. Yeah, all right, but yeah, I've been doing I've

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been doing the dad thing on weekends. It's been great. Yeah. Well,

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okay, since we were able to
steal you away for just a moment,

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are you are you feeling rusty or
you're feeling ready pent up at all?

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Are there any topics that you're like
really excited to tear into. Well,

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I love where where you took it
with that that reading from mark Um.

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I pay a lot of attention to
the ACA TikTok and there's a clip

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that is on there that's went fairly
viral where Matt is talking about questions of

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predestination from an old clip of of
of the Atheist Experience, and we've had

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like seven thousand or so people commenting
on it, talking about questions of free

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will? Who does God want to
and not want to save? What's the

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deal there? Yeah? All that
stuff once is it always right? Right?

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So yeah, I love digging into
that stuff. It'll be it'll be

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fun, cool, awesome. Well, we'll get into it. We've already

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got a bunch of calls on the
line, but we definitely want to encourage

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people to give us a try.
I'm gonna mention briefly that Talk Heathen is

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a product of the Atheist Community of
Austin, a five O one C three

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nonprofit organization dedicated to the promotion of
atheism, critical thinking, secular humanism,

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and the separation of religion and government. We are a live call in show

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with open lines, So give us
a call where at five one two nine

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nine two four two, or you
can catch us on your computer from tiny

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dot cc slash call th And before
we get started, let's take a quick

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moment to check in on the results
from last week's Talk Heathen to me.

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Last week we asked you, what
are you calling dibbs on if the Christians

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ever do get around to getting raptured. Our number three choice came from Antonio

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Kuza, who said, I called
dibbs on the National Cathedral in DC.

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Sunday parties will be up all right? That sounds like a good time.

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Yeah, it's pretty good. Our
number two choice was from the Justin,

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who says I've got dibbs on Joel
Ostein's private jet, so singing some rocks

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uh. And finally, our favorite
answer this week came from Eric Schuler,

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who says, I called dibbs on
the popemobile. That's a good one to

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get in on. I mean,
there's so much art, there's so many

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incredible buildings. I mean, there's
a lot in these sort of dragon hoarding

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institutional endowments. But the popemobile might
be the most fun and unique of the

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of the things until we get into
the crazy relics. Anyway, it's pretty

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good. Yeah. So, Kenth, for you, I have to ask

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our prompt for this week, is
right, a slogan for Satan? Yeah?

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What do you got? We're looking
for best answers in the comments section?

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How about for you from you?
So if I was if I was

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Satan's campaign manager, the slogan would
be the lesser of two evils. I

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mean, you know, I think
it pretty much writes you know when you

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when you look at the records of
the candidates. Yeah, hey, Satan

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hasn't genocided anybody that I'm aware of. No, that goes a long way

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clean hands. Yeah. Well,
we're definitely excited to hear from y'all.

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I know that you're going to have
some great answers, and I am really

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excited to get into it. But
Kenneth, we had a little bit of

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trouble getting started. So what do
you say we just go ahead and jump

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right in and talk to Chloe in
Pennsylvania. Love it Chloe. What is

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on your mind this morning? What
is on my mind? Well, I

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got into the h got into the
lap chat, just wanted to see how

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you're doing. And I saw the
initial comment of you know, faith and

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and what about the all these churches
and these organizations that use the faithfulness of

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that they demand from their from their
congregants. What if they use that for

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good? Like? Sure, how
are we supposed to react when we can

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clearly see that religion is clearly pushing
pro social behavior. Yeah, I mean

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it's a it's a tricky question,
I guess, because you know, can

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we keep the baby in the bathwater
or however we want to try and frame

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all of that. I guess it's
a little bit tricky because you have to

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keep in mind that nobody's really asking, you know. I mean, it's

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great when people watch shows like these, when they are curious about the philosophy

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of religion and ethics and moral philosophy
and these kinds of subjects. But I

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try to be really mindful of the
fact that rando's on the street don't really

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want me to give my opinion about
their belief system, and it's not really

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my job to step in until there
is a problem being caused. With that

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in mind, what should we feel, what should we be thinking, or

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what kind of message should we be
giving to people who are in a religious

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circumstance and that religion seems to be
having a positive benefit on the world.

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You know, I think we can
give them some patience. I think we

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can give them some kindness, and
definitely we can sort of deprioritize them on

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our list of things to be concerned
about. But I still think that we

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need to be working towards a evidence
based world. I think that we need

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to encourage critical thinking and be asking
people to look at what they believe and

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why sort of regardless of what the
quote unquote fruits of that thought process are.

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Kenneth, how does that land with
you? So this is something that

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I am like, very very opinionated
about. So I was like, my

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mouth is watering looking at the question
of you know, how do you question

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someone's faith when when it seems to
be leading to good outcomes. I've got

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two thoughts, and I'll try to
be as quick as I can be.

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I was talking to someone the other
day about this very thing, and they

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were talking about how we need religion
to guide our morals, and I pointed

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out to them that the best that
that religion can offer is bad reasons to

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do good things. I can't think
of a single thing that a religion could

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be instructive on as a as like
a social good that we cannot arrive at

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through purely secular, rational, compassionate, humanistic means. Do this because it's

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in line with a religion is inferior
to do this because of the good effects

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of it, Like we can we
can evaluate the effects of our actions without

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having to go this is good because
a God said so, or a prophet

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said so or whatever. So yeah, I think that's the best we can

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do. If someone's life is going
well, if they're like, hey,

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look at all this good that's happening
in my life because of my religious beliefs,

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I would I would ask them,
do you need the religious beliefs to

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to get there? And the reason
for that dovetails into the second thing,

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which is the effect of the normalization
of using faith to arrive at our conclusions

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moral or otherwise, Okay. Faith
is just believing things in the absence of

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evidence. Okay. So using that, anybody can believe anything about anything.

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And the more that we normalize that, the more that there's confusion about what

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even constitutes a social good. People
who who have incredibly regressive and toxic and

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harmful views that are informed by their
religion may still think that they are accomplishing

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social goods because they believe they're being
guided by a God or a prophet or

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whatever. We can't even get to
what social goods are without thinking about it

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separately from using faith. So that's
that's where my brain goes on end of

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it. Ye, Chloe, I
feel like we've had a version of this

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conversation before and sort of agreed to
disagree on this ultimate point. How does

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everything that Kenneth is saying to you, how does that sit? How does

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That's? Basically what I was coming
into form because I kind of had this

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feeling that this would be where you
would fall. Where I thought my perspective

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would be a little different, would
be as an animating animists in your life.

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Where I came into religion through science
wasn't through the hard science. It

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was through the soft science. It
was just through this is just what humans

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do. And from that perspective,
selflessness, religious selflessness like genuine what I

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would call plausible acts of of genuine
religiosity. How are we supposed to say

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this isn't something, this isn't How
do we get to the points where we

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can have a conversation and I am
so sorry for wasting your time on this,

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um, how do we get to
the point in the conversation where we

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can start inviting atheists and nonbelievers into
the interfaith work work world. How can

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we integrate that work? I don't
know that there is space like we can

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all sort of when we're working on
a project together, if we are coming

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together to end homelessness or to you
know, provide services and resources. Yeah,

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I do think that there is room
for atheists and for a number of

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different religious groups to come together around
those shared common goals. But if we

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are sort of setting up an atheist
table at the religion uh, you know,

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an atheist chair at the religion table, I don't think that that makes

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sense, and I don't know that
that is going to I know that we've

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sort of talked through this a couple
of different ways, and I guess what

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I really want to just lay out
for you, Chloe and ask you to

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reckon with is what Kenneth is saying. And this idea that like when I

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worked in crisis services as a crisis
counselor, there was a lot of training

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around the fact that people in that
first responder role need to be responsible to

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never lie to a client, to
never say anything that is dishonest. Because

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even if you can talk to somebody
who's like literally on the ledge, who

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is discussing or having the idea of
jumping off or ending their life doing something

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violent or hurtful or destructive, even
if you could talk them out of it

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by making some grandiose promises or by
offering a little white lie or something that

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is going to quote benefit them at
least in the short term, you're creating

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a world. You're creating an environment
where that person is never going to trust

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another first responder again, where they're
going to be cautious and anxious around all

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of these things, not to mention
devastated at whatever false promises you offer them.

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And I really want you to take
a moment and recognize that even if

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you can get a positive result out
of a lie or out of a fiction.

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It's incredibly dangerous and problematic to be
doing so. So wait, let

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me let me ask this, if
you'll let me um, what I would

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promise someone who's on the ledge is
not that God is beautiful and you know,

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don't jump or whatever. It's that
tomorrow morning, the sun's gonna rise,

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and that sun and that sunrise is
going to be beautiful. Tomorrow you're

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going to have breakfast, and that
breakfast is going to be delicious. That's

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all true and could be yeah,
and and those are things that we lead

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with faith on. We don't know
that the sun's gonna rise tomorrow. We

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have faith the sun is going to
rise tomorrow. No, we don't.

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We do not have faith the sun
is going to rise tomorrow. And maybe

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I made a foot I mean,
well no, no, but but you're

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you're you're pointing to something that's important
that there There are there are two distinct

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usages of the of the word right. There's a colloquial use of the word

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that can mean essentially it's anonymous with
hope or trust. But in the context

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of religion, a faith community like
what you've been referring to, we're talking

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about belief in the absence of,
or even contrary to evidence. Right,

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So, if you're talking about crisis
intervention and making appeals to things that we

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have evidence for, then you are
necessarily stepping outside of the realm of faith

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to do good for this person or
to attempt to But is it outside the

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realm of faith? Because yes,
for me, it's the evidence enters the

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equation it is it is outside the
realm of faith as as soon as there's

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evidence, as soon as we've got
good reasons for believing. Yeah. So,

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like the colloquial idea of believing in
people, I mean, how do

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you how do you how do you
square that belief with evidence? God,

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the beliefs in people is evidence.
People exist, people are here, my

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neighbor's hurting, I go help my
neighbor. So you want to make the

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world a better place? Yeah,
and and and you don't have to believe

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anything without evidence to recognize that people
exist, that there are benefits to helping

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people. That you know, even
even if you're detivated by pure selfishness,

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that by making the world around to
you a better place, that there's a

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sort of rising tide that lifts all
boats and the world becomes better for you

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too, you know, the more
we can promote things like empathy, generosity,

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compassion, and kindness. So yeah, there's no's no, there's no

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faith involved there. It's just you
know, good old fashioned thinking. Well,

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there is a certain amount of faith
involved because you do because I mean

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get Chloe in the sense that every
time I take a step without looking at

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the ground, I have an amount
of faith that the ground will be there

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to catch me and that it won't
just evaporate underneath me. Yeah, if

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we're going to use the word faith
that way, then sure we have faith

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that the sun is going to rise. But we're really taking that word and

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taking its elasticity and it's multiple meanings
and trying to force it and fit it

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into things in ways that are kind
of silly and ridiculous. When I take

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a step, I have faith that
the ground is still going to be underneath

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me, because I've taken millions of
steps in my life and it's almost always

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worked out without me tripping and twisting
an ankle. And I think that you

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need to really recognize there's a meaningful
difference between trusting and assuming that my ten

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billionth step is going to land on
the ground is not the same thing as

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trusting and believing that the God of
Abraham is going to give me a seat

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in his father's house after I die, or that you know, thora Odin's

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son is going to have these magical
powers or commune with me in nature,

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or any of these other philosophies.
That's not the same use of the word

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faith, And it's a little disingenuine
to try and shove them together. It

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just creates confusion right now, because
we know, we know that your you

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know, the ground exists, your
feet and legs exist. There's a lot

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of sort of epistemic groundwork that has
already been laid, so you don't have

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to believe anything on insufficient evidence to
think that the next step you take is

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going to be like the previous.
Right, you see that, Chloe,

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Right, Yeah, I see that. But that's where I'm getting at is

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that when it comes to faith,
I used to be an atheist, and

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coming out of atheism was a series
of blind walks of having them walk forward

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with no longer no longer having a
grounding, a solid grounding in materialism.

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Okay, that's what we're asking people
not to do. It's okay, and

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that you did it, but we're
encouraging people to not do that part.

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Yeah, But what I'm trying to
tell you is that people are doing it

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every day. They're doing it now
race, they're doing it with joy and

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beauty, and it's not all terrible. And you are invited to the Interfaith

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Conversation. You are invited to the
tape, whether or not you want to

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be there. You know that is
that is You're around, though, and

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look around and see the other effects
of people believing things without evidence, or

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thinking that they believe things that they
have evidence for but they actually don't,

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and they're confused about the nature of
evidence. They don't know how to evaluate

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truth claims. Look around the United
States, look at how certain groups are

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being marginalized. Look at how we
can't figure out the answers to very solvable

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problems. And this is a global
phenomenon. I don't want to just pick

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on America because I live here,
but I feel like you cannot help.

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But notice when you look around how
people seem to be having a lot of

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difficulty figuring out what the hell is
real. And and I have to say,

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the culprit seems to be that a
lot of people seem just fine with

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believing things that they don't have evidence
for a variety of reasons. But you're

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assuming that this is something that doesn't
extend into the atheist community, that this

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is something that doesn't affect I am
not community. It absolutely affects the atheist

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community. Good, good, Good. I want to make sure we're on

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the same page here, because I
was ready to talk about Richard Dawkins and

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this weird turn into eugenics. And
you can find examples of irrational people.

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You can find examples of bad ideas, bigotry, etc. In any community.

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And that's what we're hoping to discourage
is all that stuff, because those

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things are symptoms of more fundamental problems
and failures, not just on the rational

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side, but also with respect to
you know, things like compassion and empathy

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and all that stuff. So there's
there's a there's a sort of collision of

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failures that lead to people believing things
for bad reasons. But it's from my

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experience though, going you know,
experiencing things with other religious people. We

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all don't have this denial of reality. In fact, I would say a

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majority of us don't. We are
willing to accept that climate change is real.

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You know, COVID was real,
all these other things were real.

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That reality is real. We just
have our own reasons for believing something that

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may not exactly be true. And
but notice that you're operating from the same

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foundation as the climate change denihilists,
as the bigots, all the other people

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who believe unjustified stuff are using the
exact same broken epistemological tool that you're using.

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You're applying it in this one area
and you're like, it's not particularly

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harmful, but the tool itself and
the continued use of it, it creates

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huge problem. But the tool I'm
using is I'm following that sense of community

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and I'm following my own sense of
you know, togetherness. I'm following where

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the people take me. And it's
a better face, don't Yeah, Like

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Chloe, we get it, we
get it. We understand how you got

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from point A to point B,
and we're just asking you to recognize that

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it's cool that you ended up in
a place that you feel pretty good about,

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but that's a very dangerous path to
be on. We're not saying that

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you should become an atheist because atheists
are better. We're saying that you should

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think critically because critical thinking helps to
prevent people from becoming anti vaxers and transphobes.

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We're asking you to be thoughtful about
what you believe and why not because

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it will magically give you this set
of beliefs that will help you out at

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the voting booth or make you into
a more charitable person. Those are some

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happy consequences some of the time,
but ultimately we're asking you to think critically

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about all of these things so that
you don't use your sense of community,

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your desire for connection, your intuition, and all of these other things that

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can be so thoroughly manipulated and find
yourself in a dangerous place. And I

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can totally accept and appreciate if that
is not a change that you are interested

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or able to make, or willing
to make at this time. We started

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this call out with me sort of
affirming that it's not my job to like

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come into people's homes and tell them
what to believe. I am, however,

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going to continue to broadcast these ideas
on YouTube and encourage people to tune

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into them and to consider on their
merit whether or not it's valuable to choose

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to think in this way, to
be mindful and intentional and thoughtful in this

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way. And I really hope,
Chloe, that you are willing to sit

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with that a little bit and to
consider the potential value here. But I've

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spent most of my life as an
atheist. I've sat with that, with

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that proposition, and what I came
away from was that the why we become

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feist is not related to the arguments. It's related to the experience. It

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is related to those things. And
that is why things like um, that

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is why we need to have skeptics
about things like intuition. That's why we

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need to have and there's a word
for it that it's my mind's blanking on.

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Uh, I'm sorry. UM.
Discernment the power of discernment. And

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that's why we need the power of
discernment, not just in our secular lives,

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but also in our non secular lives, because we can be led to

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places that are beyond ourselves if we
can stay on the path by following some

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simple rules such as, you know, make sure you're not being harmful,

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make sure you're not doing this,
make sure you're doing that. We should

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be exploring our space. We shouldn't
be just stuck thinking, well, we

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can't we can't get out of our
we can't get out of our comfort zone

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because that's going to lead to dark
things. Well, everything's going to lead

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to dark things everything. And it's
like any from video games, politics,

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you know, even tabletop games,
even knitting. There's weird. You know,

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the past felt Fulan I don't know
how comfortable some of the beliefs or

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philosophies or values that I've come to
are. I think that they're valuable,

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and I do find some comfort in
the results of them. But I think

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the thing that I will leave you
with today, Chloe, is just to

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suggest, as a mental health professional, I see countlessly how often choosing to

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sort of block out or be willfully
ignorant or dismissive of facts, of evidence,

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of information in one domain of life
always ends up bleeding into other domains

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of life. That doesn't mean that
we are all of us always critical in

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all of our thinking always. It
does mean that if we just sort of

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allow ourselves like this part of my
life, I'm just gonna, you know,

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just I'm gonna have a little bit
of deludedness as a treat I'm just

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going to give myself permission to not
think critically in this one space that's going

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to end up eventually bleeding all over
your life. And you know you don't

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owe it to me, Chloe,
you don't ow it to anybody else to

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like stop blieving in these things.
And there's a non zero percent chance that

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if you were to just lose your
faith today, that you might become a

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more destructive, more violent person in
your community. And I hear all of

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that, and I'm still just asking
you patiently to investigate your supernatural claims,

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your philosophical beliefs, your religious beliefs, all of these things with the same

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lens of critical thinking that you would
apply to any other aspect of life.

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And what if I told you I
did, and I came to the conclusion

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that I want that I want Odin
in my life. I mean, what's

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the respect? I respect your choice? Yeah, I respect. I'm not

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I'm not your therapist. Like if
we were to sit down for an hour

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and talk about what's going well in
your life and everything else, I might,

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you know, be kind of curious
about what is working and what isn't.

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But when I have those conversations with
people, I don't make it my

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mission to take away their religious faith. That's not my right. That wouldn't

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be valuable or useful to anybody.
If it's working for you. I'm glad

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that it's working. I'm nervous about
the potential consequences for you and for your

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community. But it's not my job
to tell you to stop. It's only

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I'm only here to help encourage you
to think about it and to consider all

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of the vulnerabilities that Kenneth and I
have been pointing out. So let me

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ask you this though, because this
just leads me to an interesting question.

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What data do you have on on
that kind of thinking versus versus rationality over

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a large population that isn't a psychet
that isn't in a psychiatric context, Because

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I think you might have a bit
of survivors or a bit of selection bias

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here, because you're seeing all the
people who are you know, who may

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have some sort of psychiatric issue or
some other thing, when the majority of

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us aren't doing that, when the
majority of us are just living our lives.

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I mean, we don't have do
we have that kind of data to

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analyze? I mean yet, yes? And no, Like it's a it's

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a tricky question the way you have
it framed. And no, I'm not

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going to sit here and cite any
specific research or resources. I do you

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think that that is an interesting question
and one that can be answered to a

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certain degree, But I don't want
to sit here and act like, well,

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according to this study, clearly belief
in God makes you a bad person,

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because that would be ridiculous, and
I'm not trying to put that idea

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forward. I am going to continue
to maintain that the dearth of psychological research

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will continue to promote the idea that
blinding yourself to certain ideas like refusing to

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accept evidence, being in that place
of resistance and denial is an incredibly destructive

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force on a microbe on a personal
level as well as in a cultural level

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at large. I honestly think that
you can see that just by looking at

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our election cycles and our current political
climate without a whole lot more commentary.

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Certainly, there are books that are
volumes long trying to answer the question that

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you're asking. So I'm not going
to say more than that. I'll turn

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it over to Kenneth, but I
do think it's something you should be wrestling

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with. My brain immediately went to
I've been doing a lot of research lately

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into primarily within the evangelical community,
but also a little bit broader. The

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reasons why people still think it's a
good idea to hit their kids if they

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want to affect changes in the children's
behavior. I've been looking at a number

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of curriculum from various miseducators in this
field, people who give seminars, people

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who are part of large communities,
people who will argue to you that you

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might not want to hit your kids, but doing so is an act of

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submission to God, because the Bible
says that if you spare the rod,

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you will spoil your child. That
it's actually a sort of an act of

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worship to hit your kids, and
you can save them from the fires of

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hell by hitting them. Now do
they have any evidence that this is the

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case, horse nut? But they
have communities. Many of them think that

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what they're doing is a social and
moral good because they've been convinced of a

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certain set of claims. This is
the consequence of faith. Someone can have

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community, someone can have purpose,
someone can think they are engaging in pro

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social behavior as they abuse their children. This is what faith does. The

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same tool that you've used to feel
warm and fuzzy about your faith they used

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to feel warm and fuzzy about beating
their kids. That's the problem. So

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claim I'm gonna give you the last
word. How does all of this come

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together? How does it feel to
be having this conversation with us right now?

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All right? What? We will
leave it there, Kenneth, I

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don't know if you're going to make
it, but I am excited about the

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annual Bat Cruise. It's coming up
in about six weeks here on August twenty

378
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six. I know that I will
be there, as will Forrest Valkai,

379
00:26:37.960 --> 00:26:41.359
J Mike, a bunch of other
hosts from the Atheist Experience, Talk Heathen,

380
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.160
and the nonprofits. We're gonna hang
out, mingle, drink, chat

381
00:26:45.480 --> 00:26:49.000
all through this two hour cruise on
Ladybird Lake before the Mexican freetail bats come

382
00:26:49.039 --> 00:26:53.680
out in incredible numbers. Get your
tickets at tiny dot cc slash Bat Cruise.

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00:26:55.119 --> 00:26:56.319
Are you going to be down?
Have you done it before? I

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00:26:56.359 --> 00:26:59.880
have not yet been able to do
the Bat Cruise, And actually Jay Mike

385
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:02.160
messaged me just the other day to
go, dude, are you gonna be

386
00:27:02.200 --> 00:27:04.720
able to go this year? I
cannot, but I wish I could because

387
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.279
it sounds like a blast every year. Yeah, yeah, no, it

388
00:27:07.319 --> 00:27:11.759
really is. And it sucked for
me because I missed out. Like I

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00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:15.119
had done this type of cruise before, but I hadn't gotten to do it

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00:27:15.160 --> 00:27:18.680
with the ACA when I very first
started, and then COVID came in,

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and then finally we got it going
again last year, and the bats just

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refused to come out. So I
am I am hell bent. I'm going

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to be there. You should be
there. Tickets are still available, so

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00:27:27.960 --> 00:27:33.440
come and join us. And in
the meantime, let's touch base with Cayden

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00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:36.319
and Florida. Yeah yeah, all
right, Caden, what you got for

396
00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:40.240
us this afternoon? Okay, all
right, I was not exactly I came

397
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in here thinking this was a conversation
about evidence. But I have a lot

398
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to say about the conversation that you
just had with that individual. Um,

399
00:27:47.440 --> 00:27:48.960
well, about evidence. I hear
that. Yeah, let's talk about what

400
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you called for. Yeah, let's
talk about evidence, because yeah, the

401
00:27:52.480 --> 00:27:55.480
prompt said you had evidence for the
resurrection of Jesus. I do, yes,

402
00:27:55.720 --> 00:27:57.519
not proof though I don't know if
you read that any decide. Note

403
00:27:57.559 --> 00:28:02.200
there there is a large thing between
things that are proven and an evidence.

404
00:28:02.240 --> 00:28:06.000
So okay, this is the source
in law position is basically this, there

405
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is data surrounding the resurrection of Jesus
Christ. For instance, the tomb was

406
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found empty. The apostles all except
for John die horrific deaths. John was

407
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:18.680
exile. Saint Paul and Saint James, both of which altered Books and the

408
00:28:18.720 --> 00:28:22.720
New Testament, were not believers before
the death of Christ. Right specifically,

409
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:26.160
Saint James is important because he was
raised with Jesus Christ. They were brothers

410
00:28:26.200 --> 00:28:30.920
together. I pause it really quick. I want, I want, I

411
00:28:30.960 --> 00:28:33.119
want you to Kayden, hang on. I want because I want you to

412
00:28:33.119 --> 00:28:34.880
get through all these points. Um, but I've decided I want to write

413
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:37.440
them down, and before I do
that, I just want to make sure

414
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.880
we can all agree on what evidence
is. So I think of evidence as

415
00:28:42.000 --> 00:28:47.559
anything that can be used to demonstrate
the truth of a claim, in other

416
00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.279
words, to increase the probability that
a claim is true. Do we agree

417
00:28:51.400 --> 00:28:55.400
that that's that? That is what
evidence is. Definitely, definitely with the

418
00:28:55.599 --> 00:28:59.240
Alex sweet before I repeat everything,
maybe a little bit slower so you can

419
00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:03.119
do the tomb. I'm the purpose
of this is to show you, guys

420
00:29:03.160 --> 00:29:07.720
that there is no alternative theory that
explains the data that is more likely than

421
00:29:07.759 --> 00:29:11.319
the resurrection. Right, I'm with
you, common one. So I just

422
00:29:11.319 --> 00:29:12.720
want to get through because you gave
three things before I cut you off.

423
00:29:12.960 --> 00:29:17.920
It was an empty tomb, there
was some people becoming believers who were not

424
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.839
believers before. Oh, and martyrdom. Right, that was the other thing.

425
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:23.279
Yes, The second and the third
one are sort of intertwined. That

426
00:29:23.839 --> 00:29:29.359
point circles around Saint James as they
were raised together. And he rejected Christ

427
00:29:29.440 --> 00:29:33.599
throughout the entire ministry of Jesus,
the whole life of Jesus Christ. He

428
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:36.920
didn't consider Christ the Messiah the whole
life. Cool, it was right,

429
00:29:37.079 --> 00:29:40.200
still he sorry, good, no, no, So so we got empty

430
00:29:40.200 --> 00:29:44.559
tomb, we've got martyrdom, We've
got some some changed minds. What else

431
00:29:44.759 --> 00:29:47.440
is there on the list? Okay? What else is on the list is

432
00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:52.880
the the secular sources that talk about
the writings of the apostles and the lives

433
00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:56.359
that they live. Okay. The
fifth thing that I want to bring attention

434
00:29:56.400 --> 00:30:00.279
to is the quick development and the
way that it ca on even through the

435
00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:06.160
persecution. Right, because there was
not a single person that actually knew Christ

436
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:08.839
personally that didn't think he resurrected from
the debt. There's not one example of

437
00:30:08.880 --> 00:30:12.160
that at all. Normally, whenever
a miracle happens, there's at least one

438
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.160
person that's going to sit there and
think that it is probably not true,

439
00:30:15.319 --> 00:30:18.519
right, at least at least one. But that didn't happen, not for

440
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:22.119
a long time, at least,
you know, barn and everything else.

441
00:30:22.160 --> 00:30:26.240
But all right, true, Okay, so pretty good, Gliz Kennethy.

442
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:29.480
You need some more? Yeah?
Is that it? I mean? Now?

443
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:33.480
Okay? So, um, I
too am familiar with this minimal facts

444
00:30:33.559 --> 00:30:37.359
approach. You know that's been made
popular by people like you know, Mike

445
00:30:37.359 --> 00:30:41.279
Winger and Mike Lacona and Gary Habermass, all those kind of dudes. Um,

446
00:30:41.519 --> 00:30:45.000
But here's the problem. Nothing that
you just gave as an individual point,

447
00:30:45.279 --> 00:30:52.119
None of those individual points can possibly
be used to demonstrate that the resurrection

448
00:30:52.359 --> 00:30:55.599
happened. And when you take a
handful of things that cannot be used to

449
00:30:55.640 --> 00:31:00.519
demonstrate that the resurrection happened and then
pile them together into a non evidence pile,

450
00:31:00.759 --> 00:31:03.839
that pile does not then become evident. Well, here's the thing is,

451
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:07.359
you're you're misinterpreting what I'm doing here. What I'm saying is that this

452
00:31:07.480 --> 00:31:10.680
data all is true. This data
is not religious. This is not my

453
00:31:10.759 --> 00:31:14.119
interpretation of what happens. This is
the reality of it. So now it's

454
00:31:14.160 --> 00:31:18.599
on us as as you use critical
thinking people to analyze what happened here and

455
00:31:18.640 --> 00:31:22.640
come up with a theory that best
fits the evidence. Right, Okay,

456
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:26.279
the ones that I encounter are hallucinations
or lies. I'm not sure if you

457
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:29.480
have a favorite, but that's going
to depend how I perceive. Well,

458
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:33.640
let's let's just let's just evaluate if
so. Are you saying that you agree

459
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:36.680
that none of this stuff is evidence
that the resurrection happens. No, I'm

460
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:41.400
saying that all of it together builds
a case for nothing else making any sense

461
00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:45.279
whatsoever. Them Lying is less likely
than Christ's resurrecting, them hallucinating is less

462
00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.799
likely than Christ's resurrecting. And there's
a there's I've met a couple other things

463
00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:53.079
that people said might have been true, but those are also claims I might

464
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:56.799
want to play with you. How
do we how do we figure out if

465
00:31:56.839 --> 00:32:01.680
because we know that people telling stories, people making things up, people hallucinating,

466
00:32:01.960 --> 00:32:07.519
that those are all things that actually
happen in reality. So on the

467
00:32:07.559 --> 00:32:10.480
other hand, I'm not aware of
any evidence to indicate that people can,

468
00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:15.039
you know, resurrect from the dead. So when we've got a handful of

469
00:32:15.160 --> 00:32:21.319
natural claims up against a supernatural claim, like, they're more likely right just

470
00:32:21.359 --> 00:32:23.839
by virtue, if we don't have
any way of evaluating the supernatural or demonstrating

471
00:32:23.839 --> 00:32:28.039
that it even exists. This is
where I jump in on the supernatural point.

472
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:30.240
If anyone were to resurrect, I
think William Layne Craig talks about this,

473
00:32:30.440 --> 00:32:34.359
it would be Christ. Oh boy, right, There's no other place

474
00:32:34.440 --> 00:32:37.880
in history where God would have touched
mankind. That is the only time in

475
00:32:37.880 --> 00:32:42.920
which God actually would have touched mankind
Islam, maybe due to a size,

476
00:32:42.960 --> 00:32:45.160
but I have my own that's a
different conversation completely. Now, So go

477
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.119
back to what you said in the
beginning about all of these things not being

478
00:32:49.200 --> 00:32:52.440
any evidence on their own. I
definitely agree with you. Right, Like

479
00:32:52.480 --> 00:32:54.920
I said, this isn't proof.
The only thing that I'm attempting to provide

480
00:32:54.920 --> 00:32:59.279
to you is that my position is
rational. It is based in history,

481
00:32:59.279 --> 00:33:00.359
and it is based on evidence.
Right. It's not as though this is

482
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:04.279
it based on things that didn't actually
happen. Everything that I said is that

483
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:06.799
we don't have evidence. But wait
a second. So this and this is

484
00:33:06.799 --> 00:33:09.519
where this is why I like,
I get stuck on this with people because

485
00:33:09.920 --> 00:33:15.119
and it's why I put the definition
out at the outset in hopes of avoiding

486
00:33:15.119 --> 00:33:19.599
the evidence. For something to be
evidence, it has to be it has

487
00:33:19.640 --> 00:33:22.000
to have the quality of being useful
for demonstrating the truth of a claim.

488
00:33:22.119 --> 00:33:27.000
Right, it has to It has
to move the needle on the probability of

489
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:30.920
whatever claim we're evaluating. So if
if there's a claim that there is a

490
00:33:30.920 --> 00:33:35.440
tomb, but there is nobody in
the tomb, this is not evidence that

491
00:33:35.519 --> 00:33:38.240
anything supernatural happened. It's just an
empty tomb. If if we've got the

492
00:33:38.319 --> 00:33:43.279
claim that a bunch of people have
died for a set of claims, well

493
00:33:43.400 --> 00:33:46.240
that too is not evidence that what
they believed was true. Because we know

494
00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:50.319
people are willing to die for things
just based on whatever they're convinced of.

495
00:33:50.480 --> 00:33:52.480
You can look at you know,
Jim Jones or you know, I mean,

496
00:33:52.480 --> 00:33:57.559
there's there's all kinds of of of
cults and religious movements and political movements

497
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:00.559
where people have been willing to die
for things. That doesn't mean that what

498
00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:04.240
they believed in was true. People
having their minds changed is sort of dovetails

499
00:34:04.279 --> 00:34:07.799
into that nicely, like there's no
people people can have their minds changed.

500
00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:13.119
People who have known cult leaders directly
have become convinced of their claims. People

501
00:34:13.119 --> 00:34:15.000
have been family members, et cetera. Have started out not believing and then

502
00:34:15.079 --> 00:34:19.000
change their minds. That there's not
there's no evidence that a resurrection was involved

503
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:22.000
for for someone to change their mind. Um, lives of the apostles.

504
00:34:22.079 --> 00:34:24.360
Yeah, we've got secular sources for
that. We've got we've got some records

505
00:34:24.440 --> 00:34:28.880
related to the early Church. That
that doesn't mean that what they were convinced

506
00:34:28.880 --> 00:34:31.239
of is necessarily true. And the
growth of a religion is an evidence that

507
00:34:31.239 --> 00:34:35.679
the religion is true. We've got
a billion Muslims and you're not a Muslim,

508
00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:38.840
but that religion grew right. So
so again, like none of this

509
00:34:38.920 --> 00:34:45.679
stuff points to it is it's so
useless for with respect to demonstrating anything about

510
00:34:45.760 --> 00:34:52.000
the resurrection that that I very very
confidently am telling you it's not evidence.

511
00:34:52.360 --> 00:34:54.800
Here's what I'm trying to say.
Though all of those points I agree individually,

512
00:34:54.880 --> 00:34:58.239
they do nothing. If I just
had one of them, I wouldn't

513
00:34:58.280 --> 00:35:00.320
be able to prove anything you brought
up the to first, I agree as

514
00:35:00.360 --> 00:35:04.239
far as lying is concerned. They
totally could have just stole the body out

515
00:35:04.239 --> 00:35:07.599
of there somehow. And even though
the penalty for abandonment of a position in

516
00:35:07.679 --> 00:35:09.320
Roman times is death, I'm sure
they could have figured out some way to

517
00:35:09.400 --> 00:35:13.880
get the guards moved or whatever.
But that is evidence against the hallucination.

518
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:17.559
And you said all of these things, we have evidence for them happing nationally

519
00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.039
naturally. I apologize. Group hallucinations
are not natural. It's actually never been

520
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:25.719
one that's as well documented in the
same way as this one is. Because

521
00:35:25.719 --> 00:35:30.920
there's always people that are denying the
hallucination, people that are there while everybody

522
00:35:30.920 --> 00:35:32.960
else is hallucinating, but they're not
seeing it. There's at least one or

523
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:36.679
two of them. This is not
the case with the resurrection. What are

524
00:35:36.679 --> 00:35:38.920
you pointing with your documentation sources here? Yeah? What are you pointing to

525
00:35:39.199 --> 00:35:43.000
for your group hallucination here? What
would be that? What would be the

526
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:45.960
group hallucination? I'm more just say
that because I was spoken with other atheists

527
00:35:45.960 --> 00:35:49.639
and they mentioned group hallucination. I
know what I'm saying, Like, are

528
00:35:49.719 --> 00:35:53.199
you are you referring? Are you
referring to stories in the Gospels and in

529
00:35:53.360 --> 00:35:57.719
acts of people seeing the resurrected Jesus. Is that what you're talking about in

530
00:35:57.840 --> 00:36:00.039
reference to the scriptures, Yes,
but I'm talking about group hallucinations. Like

531
00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:04.559
in the natural world, they don't
happen. It's it's not a thing that

532
00:36:04.599 --> 00:36:07.360
happens. And so when you have
multiple people hallucinating the same thing at the

533
00:36:07.400 --> 00:36:13.199
same time without the use of drugs, it's statistically very very unlikely, very

534
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:15.760
unlikely. I thought you just said
it doesn't ever happen. It's well,

535
00:36:15.760 --> 00:36:21.480
it's a statistical impossibility. To a
statistical impossibility is something that's so unlikely that

536
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.039
you can just write it off.
When I say, getting into this is

537
00:36:23.039 --> 00:36:27.880
why I get worried when we allow
people to have like eight or ten claims

538
00:36:27.920 --> 00:36:30.880
stacked on time to each other,
because if you try and chase each one

539
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:34.880
of them down, you start to
see that not one of them really holds

540
00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:37.880
up. But to Kenneth's point,
even if we take all of these and

541
00:36:38.119 --> 00:36:43.679
grant them to you as accurate and
true and then pile them all together,

542
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:46.480
we still just have all these little
data points that you need to construct a

543
00:36:46.559 --> 00:36:52.519
narrative around, and your philosophy,
your idea that the most cogent, the

544
00:36:52.559 --> 00:36:58.960
most reasonable narrative is that the all
powerful God of the universe sent himself in

545
00:36:59.320 --> 00:37:04.239
corporeal form to Earth in order to
be sacrificed for our sins, in order

546
00:37:04.239 --> 00:37:07.280
to protect us from him. Like, I don't think that that's the easiest,

547
00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:14.039
most realistic Akham's razor narrative that we
could possibly assemble. Is that fair?

548
00:37:14.519 --> 00:37:17.039
Yes? Yes, But with the
main point that I'm arguing is that

549
00:37:17.119 --> 00:37:22.519
Christ resurrected, not all the dogma
that comes with that, the dogma because

550
00:37:22.559 --> 00:37:25.400
we don't know Christ resurrected because of
the dog it's very different. I get

551
00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:31.760
that, and I alogize, like
I this might this might be useful.

552
00:37:31.920 --> 00:37:37.239
Imagine that you are on trial for
murder. Okay, someone was killed at

553
00:37:37.320 --> 00:37:40.440
the food court at the mall.
Okay, and I'm going to be your

554
00:37:40.480 --> 00:37:44.679
prosecutor. All right, here we
go. There's a taco bell in the

555
00:37:44.679 --> 00:37:47.840
food court, and Caden likes tacos. Somebody said that they think they saw

556
00:37:47.920 --> 00:37:52.639
Cayden there. Caden's car was seen
on video in the parking lot at the

557
00:37:52.679 --> 00:37:57.599
mall. Are we anywhere close to
yet having anything that could be used to

558
00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:01.400
convict you of the murder. No, right, it's like that the court

559
00:38:01.400 --> 00:38:05.840
of all. Yeah, it is
so, but none of that is evidence

560
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:07.920
that that you committed a murder.
We don't even have evidence that you were

561
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:10.760
in the food court for all.
We know that eyewitnesses is mistaken. We

562
00:38:10.760 --> 00:38:14.119
don't even have the eyewitness we had
to hear, say, we had someone

563
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.039
heard they saw someone saw, you
know, someone who looked like you.

564
00:38:16.239 --> 00:38:21.000
So when we're looking at stuff like
the stories and the gospels about you know,

565
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.320
people seeing the risen Jesus, we
don't even know. We don't even

566
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:29.559
know that that's accurate. Your example
is fallacious because it's you're you're asking this

567
00:38:29.639 --> 00:38:34.039
though it's it's it's flacious because of
this. I'm not saying that we know

568
00:38:34.360 --> 00:38:37.199
exactly that it was me that committed
the murder. R because you're using murder

569
00:38:37.239 --> 00:38:40.519
as the example. It's more that
I know that a murder was committed.

570
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:44.480
That's obvious. There is a bunch
of reasons. That's why the murder was

571
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:46.639
committed. Who it is who committed
the murder, we don't know, but

572
00:38:46.679 --> 00:38:51.280
there is a murder. It's almost
as though you guys are denying the existence

573
00:38:51.320 --> 00:38:53.119
of the murder because guns are illegal. So obviously no one could have shot

574
00:38:53.159 --> 00:38:58.639
somebody because under are illegal. That
I'm denying the existence of the resurrection.

575
00:38:58.760 --> 00:39:01.000
Yeah, we're talking about We're talking
about a story in a book about somebody

576
00:39:01.360 --> 00:39:05.559
resurrecting from the dead. There's there's
no evidence that that happened. There's a

577
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.119
bunch of circumstantial stuff. There are
claims there, there are a third person

578
00:39:08.239 --> 00:39:14.440
anonymously written hearsay accounts of this happening. And that's the best you've got.

579
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:17.039
You've got some people were convinced that
this happened. That's the best you've got.

580
00:39:17.079 --> 00:39:20.559
It's not evidence, it's it's more
than that. I listen at least

581
00:39:20.559 --> 00:39:22.400
five But like I said at the
beginning, and I'm gonna repeat this,

582
00:39:22.519 --> 00:39:27.760
it's not as though I'm saying that
these things then therefore me and Christ resurrect.

583
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:30.400
This is not proved. It's not
even really all that direct. The

584
00:39:30.440 --> 00:39:34.880
only thing that all of these data
points do is they disprove everything that isn't

585
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:38.199
the resurrection. A lot it's disproven
by no, it just improves the resurrection.

586
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:43.840
It just disproves. No, they
don't non resurrection. No, they

587
00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:46.119
don't. Let me help you out
empty tomb. Okay, first of all,

588
00:39:46.159 --> 00:39:50.440
I don't think there's any records that
actually point to there being an empty

589
00:39:50.440 --> 00:39:53.679
tomb as described in the gospels.
Even the Gospels can't agree on what happened

590
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:57.800
the morning of the resurrection. Okay, so there's there's a claim that there

591
00:39:57.880 --> 00:40:00.199
was an empty tomb, not we
can't even and verify if that's true.

592
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:05.599
We've got people willing to die again. This does not demonstrate that a resurrection

593
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:08.599
happened. We've got people changed their
minds again, this does not indicate that

594
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:13.599
a resurrection happened. We've got secular
sources about the early Church and the lives

595
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:16.119
of the apostles. This does not
confirm that a resurrection happened. None of

596
00:40:16.159 --> 00:40:21.000
this points to the resurrection happening.
It points to people believing a set of

597
00:40:21.039 --> 00:40:23.000
claims. That's a very very different
thing, right at all. When you

598
00:40:23.000 --> 00:40:25.599
look at the Evans, it's not
like a direct thing like, do you

599
00:40:25.639 --> 00:40:30.199
have some other theory as to what
maybe could have happened around the time that

600
00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:31.880
Christ has died. In the three
days after we could sit here, and

601
00:40:32.039 --> 00:40:36.679
we could sit here all day day, and we could sit here all day

602
00:40:36.840 --> 00:40:42.119
and come up with natural explanations for
the spread of a set of ideas,

603
00:40:42.239 --> 00:40:47.360
and all of them will be more
likely than a supernatural resurrection. It's not

604
00:40:47.440 --> 00:40:50.639
just the spread of ideas, man, It's a lot more than just the

605
00:40:50.639 --> 00:40:53.199
spread of ideas. And I okay, then what is it? Name one

606
00:40:53.239 --> 00:40:55.519
that you can think is more likely
than the resurrection, and then we can

607
00:40:55.559 --> 00:41:00.239
discuss that what is more likely than
Jesus resurrecting. People wrote a story about

608
00:41:00.320 --> 00:41:02.760
Jesus resurrecting and came to believe it. There you go, Okay, so

609
00:41:02.880 --> 00:41:07.079
they lied, Then that's basically that's
no. I didn't say anybody lied.

610
00:41:07.239 --> 00:41:09.119
I didn't say anybody lied. I'm
saying there's a tradition that grew and was

611
00:41:09.159 --> 00:41:13.840
accepted by a lot of people.
See, the first people could have been

612
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:17.599
since there are people could have been, people could have been sincerely convinced that

613
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:22.599
they thought they saw the resurrected Jesus. That does not mean the resurrection happened.

614
00:41:22.719 --> 00:41:24.679
Okay, Look, you made two
points there. So the first point

615
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:28.239
you just made, I'm an Orthodox. It's in the note there, which

616
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:31.599
means I don't believe doctrine developed.
The same faith I have now is identical

617
00:41:31.719 --> 00:41:36.159
to that of the Apostle to that
of Paul or John or even Jesus Christ.

618
00:41:36.400 --> 00:41:39.119
The faith didn't change in any way
whatsoever. Then the way it was

619
00:41:39.159 --> 00:41:43.719
originally conceived, there is not a
single dogmatic change that happens. Okay,

620
00:41:43.760 --> 00:41:46.840
that's the position I So that's the
reputation to your first point. The second

621
00:41:46.920 --> 00:41:52.519
thing that you said that that's not
a reputation, that's just an assertion of

622
00:41:52.519 --> 00:41:54.679
what you believe. That doesn't refute
anything that I've said. Well, the

623
00:41:54.719 --> 00:41:59.960
reason why that's important is because if
you look throughout the councils and the writing,

624
00:42:00.079 --> 00:42:01.880
the saints and everything, you can
see that it didn't develop like they

625
00:42:01.920 --> 00:42:07.280
all agree that there's a lack of
development because their predecessors believe the same things

626
00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:09.840
that they believe. And then you
can just yeah, they say, but

627
00:42:09.920 --> 00:42:13.400
if you don't, you don't have
any way they're saying that, and then

628
00:42:13.440 --> 00:42:16.119
it developed that didn't happen. But
this is irrelevant or the truth of the

629
00:42:16.159 --> 00:42:22.079
claims themselves. You can say,
hey, people have believed that X for

630
00:42:22.400 --> 00:42:25.039
thousands of years. That has nothing
to do with whether or not X is

631
00:42:25.079 --> 00:42:29.840
true. Correct, But you were
saying that they wrote story down and then

632
00:42:29.880 --> 00:42:34.000
it developed into this whole other mystical
thing. Right, it developed into something

633
00:42:34.039 --> 00:42:37.880
that it wasn't originally because they weren't
lying. It developed. I said that

634
00:42:39.400 --> 00:42:44.119
these processes work. It's it's like
right back to talking about the quote unquote

635
00:42:44.119 --> 00:42:49.639
group hallucinations, this dichotomy between well, they either lied or he was a

636
00:42:49.719 --> 00:42:52.920
lunatic or there was a group pellucine. Like life is so much more nuanced

637
00:42:52.920 --> 00:42:58.280
and complicated than that. You recognize
that we are talking about something that,

638
00:42:58.440 --> 00:43:00.639
if it happened at all, or
whatever aspects of it that did happen,

639
00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:07.920
happened two thousand years ago in a
completely different world to a completely different culture.

640
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:13.679
I mean, our efforts to try
and understand what happened there are really

641
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:20.039
complex, and this notion that you
can simplify all of this down into these

642
00:43:20.239 --> 00:43:24.920
basic categories is just such obvious rhetoric. And I would really really ask you,

643
00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:30.119
Kayden, to just stop and take
a breath and recognize that piling up

644
00:43:30.239 --> 00:43:36.079
all of these different ideas on top
of each other doesn't get you anywhere when

645
00:43:36.119 --> 00:43:40.159
each of these individual ideas is very
very flimsy. I mean, just looking

646
00:43:40.199 --> 00:43:45.519
at the notion of the empty tomb, what does that mean that we have

647
00:43:45.719 --> 00:43:51.840
these disparate accounts that there was a
tomb that was empt How does that evidence

648
00:43:52.960 --> 00:43:55.840
Jesus Christ raised from the dead.
What that means is that anyone that hurts

649
00:43:55.920 --> 00:44:00.960
that Jesus Christ resurrected from the dead
and didn't immediately either see the risen Christ

650
00:44:01.079 --> 00:44:05.639
or believe, could go to that
tomb and verify if the body was removed

651
00:44:05.719 --> 00:44:09.360
or not. Because again, you
know, I means whether or not Mark

652
00:44:09.400 --> 00:44:14.400
wrote it down, maybe many assumption
you built into this. Yeah, you

653
00:44:14.440 --> 00:44:17.639
can demonstrate that joy is just simply
unscientific. I don't know if you know.

654
00:44:17.679 --> 00:44:22.400
It is not. No, it
is not. You cannot demonstrate.

655
00:44:22.679 --> 00:44:25.079
You cannot demonstrate that this tomb existed
in the first place, or that Jesus

656
00:44:25.079 --> 00:44:29.199
body ever made it into it.
You cannot verify that any of these claims

657
00:44:29.199 --> 00:44:32.360
about the Roman guard being at the
tomb actually happened. You can't verify any

658
00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:35.440
of it. It's stories in a
book. I want to I want to

659
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:38.000
just really quick, because we're we're
beaten a dead horse at this point,

660
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:42.559
so I want to just ask you
this. Are you aware that the tradition

661
00:44:42.599 --> 00:44:46.440
in Islam is that the Koran as
a recitation was recited perfectly up until the

662
00:44:46.440 --> 00:44:50.519
point that it was written down,
and that what is written down is a

663
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:54.679
preservation of this unchanged Koran, going
all the way back to the direct revelation

664
00:44:54.840 --> 00:45:00.559
from Gabriel to the prophet Muhammad.
No, because there's a si from the

665
00:45:00.119 --> 00:45:04.559
I believe it's from Ayisha. She
writes about how a sheep eats Sarah thirty

666
00:45:04.559 --> 00:45:07.440
three or the later half of it. So no, even to Muslims,

667
00:45:07.440 --> 00:45:10.639
that is not perfectly preserved. There's
a just in the same way there's there

668
00:45:10.639 --> 00:45:14.840
are traditions in Christianity. They're in
the same way. They're traditions in Christianity

669
00:45:14.880 --> 00:45:17.440
that would disagree with your orthodox position. But there is a there is a

670
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.679
few I've talked. I've talked with
dozens of Islamic apologists who tell me that

671
00:45:22.679 --> 00:45:27.559
the Koran is perfect and completely unchanged. Okay, they are convinced of this

672
00:45:27.880 --> 00:45:30.559
in the same way that you're convinced
of this with respect to biblical claims.

673
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.719
So there are stories in the Koran
that we could point to, and I

674
00:45:34.719 --> 00:45:36.559
could I mean, we could ask
you, like, Okay, there's there's

675
00:45:36.599 --> 00:45:39.679
I's like the twenty six or twenty
seventh Surah somewhere around there there's a story

676
00:45:39.719 --> 00:45:45.320
about Solomon and his armies, and
his armies have have gin and people and

677
00:45:45.480 --> 00:45:49.360
birds in them, and in that
chapter Solomon can can talk to birds,

678
00:45:49.400 --> 00:45:52.360
they can talk to him, he
can talk to them. And the idea

679
00:45:52.400 --> 00:45:55.440
is that that story has been unchanged. Okay, is that evidence that Solomon

680
00:45:55.480 --> 00:45:59.320
could talk to birds? Do you
do you think that that King Solomon could

681
00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:04.920
communicate with with birds? That's that's
evidence that the story didn't change. And

682
00:46:05.159 --> 00:46:07.679
the only reason why I brought up
the development is because of what you said

683
00:46:07.760 --> 00:46:12.039
about the fact that they wrote stories
and then it developed into something that we're

684
00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:15.800
answering a different question than when I
asked you are are you convinced? Are

685
00:46:15.800 --> 00:46:17.920
you convinced that Solomon could talk to
birds? No? Why not? Because

686
00:46:17.920 --> 00:46:22.440
I'm not a Muslim? So what
there's a there's a story that is unchanged.

687
00:46:22.559 --> 00:46:24.880
It hasn't changed. Yeah, came
straight from the mouth of Gabriel.

688
00:46:24.880 --> 00:46:29.159
Actually, why don't you believe it? It's because Christ resurrected, and no,

689
00:46:29.960 --> 00:46:31.679
Christ resurrection has nothing to do with
whether or not Solomon could talk to

690
00:46:31.719 --> 00:46:37.480
birds. Listen to me, people, people in the name of Islam.

691
00:46:37.719 --> 00:46:40.199
People have been so convinced that this, people who were not Muslims have changed

692
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:44.960
their minds and become convinced of it, even in the prophet's own family.

693
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:47.360
Why don't you believe that Solomon could
talk to birds all the time? I

694
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:51.840
mean, you can just be incorrect
about something that's totally normal, very common,

695
00:46:51.880 --> 00:46:53.320
and like, hey, wait a
second, why are you claimed by

696
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:57.400
two sets of rules? How come
the rules for believing Solomon could talk to

697
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:00.679
birds and the rules about Jesus resurrecting
are different? Why they're not? Yes,

698
00:47:00.679 --> 00:47:04.000
they are. We could take all
of the stuff that you think of

699
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:07.360
as being indicative that Jesus resurrected apply
it to Islam. We've got a story

700
00:47:07.400 --> 00:47:10.559
about it, dude, talking to
birds. You're not convinced. Why because

701
00:47:10.679 --> 00:47:14.880
someone that knew Solomon didn't write it. And also we have in the Old

702
00:47:14.920 --> 00:47:19.000
Testament from people that actually knew Solomon
not writing about that. So that's basically

703
00:47:19.039 --> 00:47:22.599
the reason is that the time differential
because that's at least six hundred years after

704
00:47:22.679 --> 00:47:25.440
Jesus Christ Versus. The New Testament
was written within twenty to fifty, So

705
00:47:25.519 --> 00:47:29.719
you know it's a little bit is
by Who tell me, tell me who

706
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:32.119
wrote those gospels? Who wrote those
gospels, since that matters if whether or

707
00:47:32.119 --> 00:47:35.800
not they knew the source directly?
Who wrote the gospel? Helped me out

708
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.559
the apostles? Did they? Yeah? Well, actually, why do you

709
00:47:37.599 --> 00:47:40.400
think that not written by anapolosile?
Mark was written by Mark? Oh?

710
00:47:40.440 --> 00:47:44.440
Peter or getting in trouble. So
the Gospel of Mark is actually Peter's gospel.

711
00:47:44.559 --> 00:47:46.679
Mark is the scrit because of fairly
certain Peter wasn't great. Hey,

712
00:47:46.719 --> 00:47:51.119
anything's possible when we use our imagination. But listen, if you look at

713
00:47:51.119 --> 00:47:53.079
the scholar of the consensus, we
don't have any idea who wrote the gospels,

714
00:47:53.199 --> 00:47:58.199
So good luck with that. You're
not true in either way. There's

715
00:47:58.239 --> 00:48:00.039
the tradition of it. So we
have like saying Iranians, for instance,

716
00:48:00.039 --> 00:48:02.920
who comes from the year one hundred
and seventy. If you read this rule

717
00:48:02.920 --> 00:48:07.239
about the notion of tradition in all
of our conversation about Islam, I'm kayden,

718
00:48:07.519 --> 00:48:10.760
I'm cutting you off. I'm talking
over you here. No, No,

719
00:48:12.159 --> 00:48:15.639
let's not though we've gone through this, We've gone around this, look

720
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:21.639
back over this, watch this tape, try and recognize this two system that

721
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:25.199
you're applying here. You mentioned the
notion of critical thinking, that we talked

722
00:48:25.199 --> 00:48:30.119
about with Chloe earlier in the show. Let me encourage you to go through

723
00:48:30.199 --> 00:48:35.320
this conversation, watch it back over
and recognize whether or not there are two

724
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:38.519
different systems that you may be applying
when we talk about Islam, when we

725
00:48:38.519 --> 00:48:42.639
talk about some of these other claims
versus the claims that you're making. For

726
00:48:42.800 --> 00:48:44.960
now, I'd like to leave it
there. I'll go ahead and give you

727
00:48:45.000 --> 00:48:47.000
the last word before we take the
next call. Fair. I am very

728
00:48:47.039 --> 00:48:50.199
thankful for that, and I'm very
honored that you would give me the last

729
00:48:50.239 --> 00:48:52.920
word, and I appreciate the fact
that we that you're being very respectful.

730
00:48:53.280 --> 00:48:57.519
I'm honored at that. As a
closing statement, I would only like to

731
00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.800
say that the reason why they appeared
those same is because they both operate around

732
00:49:00.840 --> 00:49:05.639
tradition. But what you need to
understand about tradition is that it doesn't really

733
00:49:05.719 --> 00:49:07.480
prove anything. It only proves who
wrote the books. So when you brought

734
00:49:07.519 --> 00:49:10.760
up the Solomon point, I'm not
denying that whoever claimed that wrote that thing

735
00:49:10.800 --> 00:49:15.280
about Solomon wrote it. I'm very
positive they probably did. And whatever the

736
00:49:15.320 --> 00:49:19.280
tradition is that in reference to the
talking of Solomon, it's probably been held

737
00:49:19.280 --> 00:49:22.639
for all of the time. I'm
not denying that, So that's why it's

738
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:25.400
not It doesn't contrast itself in the
way that you think it does. But

739
00:49:25.519 --> 00:49:28.159
with that, I will leave you, guys. I hope you have a

740
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:30.519
wonderful day. God bless hey,
you take care. Thanks for giving us

741
00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:34.440
a call. Okay, Well,
Kevin, I don't know if you have

742
00:49:34.639 --> 00:49:38.880
anything that can help us sort of
put all of that word salad together,

743
00:49:39.199 --> 00:49:43.000
or if we just need a good
palate cleanser before we jump onto the next

744
00:49:43.000 --> 00:49:45.880
call. I would like to think
that we can arrive at a place where

745
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:52.440
we bring various religions together by pointing
out that like the resurrection is exactly as

746
00:49:52.480 --> 00:49:55.719
likely as Solomon talking to birds,
or you know, whatever else might be

747
00:49:55.760 --> 00:50:00.000
out there, so that people feel
like, you know, they're operating physicians

748
00:50:00.039 --> 00:50:04.400
of equality, yeah yeah, or
you know that we can refute our own

749
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:07.840
religion by the same tools we used
to refute everyone else's. That's an idea

750
00:50:07.920 --> 00:50:13.400
that I think we're going to start
to feel very uncomfortable with that whole outsider

751
00:50:13.440 --> 00:50:16.719
test for faith thing right that John
Loftis wrote about. Um, it's useful

752
00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:22.199
if you just just think about your
religion in exactly the same way that you

753
00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:24.760
think about all the others, big
things can start to happen. Yeah,

754
00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.559
hey, I mean it might be
a little bit simplistic, but doctor Jerrold

755
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:34.000
Raise Raiser is just to recognize,
well, what's the religion that your parents

756
00:50:34.039 --> 00:50:37.880
taught you, what was the religion
that you grew up around. And even

757
00:50:37.960 --> 00:50:40.239
if you've kind of gone through a
bit of a journey and some changes,

758
00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:45.119
were you planted in soil that was
pretty well primed for the thing that you

759
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:50.000
eventually came to. And the vast
majority of cases, that's that's gonna cut

760
00:50:50.039 --> 00:50:52.960
through a lot of it. Yep. I hope that's helpful to Caden and

761
00:50:52.000 --> 00:50:55.960
to everybody else out there. And
for now, let's talk to James in

762
00:50:57.239 --> 00:51:00.920
Canada. James, what you got
for us today? As how you doing

763
00:51:00.119 --> 00:51:02.400
doing? Well? Oh it's good. Oh yeah, I want to talk

764
00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:07.440
about Jesus. Please do what's on
your mind? And okay, um,

765
00:51:07.519 --> 00:51:09.960
I'll tell you what's going on.
Um. There's two verses. I'd like

766
00:51:10.000 --> 00:51:14.960
to mention that at one or an
Old Testament. One's in the New Testa

767
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:19.239
seven fourteen. You know it,
Isaiah seven fourteen. Not off the top

768
00:51:19.239 --> 00:51:22.079
of my head. Okay. A
version shell give birth and caller his name

769
00:51:22.159 --> 00:51:27.599
Emmanuel. Okay, Matthew version verse
one, uh no one, section two

770
00:51:27.679 --> 00:51:30.440
or whatever they call it. So
it's the same thing. Version sheell give

771
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:34.079
birth and call his name Emmanuel.
That was his real name. Okay,

772
00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:37.960
um, So his reel name is
actually spelled with the juh and his true

773
00:51:38.000 --> 00:51:45.239
teach no Jamanuel with a j no. Okay, Bill, you still pronounce

774
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:51.639
it as Emmanuel, but it's spelled
with a j okay sign. Teaching anywhere

775
00:51:51.760 --> 00:51:55.719
online on YouTube, on the internet, James, I'm not looking to rush

776
00:51:55.719 --> 00:51:59.800
you or fast forward, but I
would like to have a sense of where

777
00:51:59.800 --> 00:52:02.880
we're going and why. Okay,
because the two teachings are in the time

778
00:52:04.000 --> 00:52:07.559
that of Emmanuel. What happened to
Jesus. Basically, the reason why he

779
00:52:07.679 --> 00:52:10.960
wasn't in his toom was because he
was rescued from his tomb. He was

780
00:52:12.079 --> 00:52:16.800
rescued from his tomb. There are
clues that that where they say they're healing

781
00:52:16.840 --> 00:52:22.599
salves and not into his tomb right
for his wounds. Okay, that's what

782
00:52:22.679 --> 00:52:25.800
that was for. And there were
healers who were waiting for him after he

783
00:52:25.920 --> 00:52:31.440
was he was actually nailed to a
dead tree in the shape of why where

784
00:52:31.440 --> 00:52:36.320
he fainted. He's only on there
for six hours. Brought into the tomb,

785
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:39.679
the healing salves are brought in the
healers from the east or the words

786
00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:44.400
you're making are you're making all these
claims, but we haven't yet arrived at

787
00:52:44.440 --> 00:52:46.079
a reason to think that any of
this stuff is true. You might as

788
00:52:46.119 --> 00:52:51.079
well, you know, be telling
me about you know, Harry Potter's third

789
00:52:51.159 --> 00:52:52.960
year at Hogwarts. Man, I
like, what are we what are we

790
00:52:53.000 --> 00:52:55.760
talking about? It is true,
we're talking. We're talking about how do

791
00:52:55.800 --> 00:53:00.199
we know of the mind called Jesus? Yes, how do we know that

792
00:53:00.280 --> 00:53:04.679
any of the things that you've shared
with these teachings were found in the original

793
00:53:04.719 --> 00:53:07.599
teachings were found in his original tomb? And how do we know that any

794
00:53:07.599 --> 00:53:10.079
of this is true? Please?
Don't just tell us more things. Tell

795
00:53:10.159 --> 00:53:15.199
us tell us why any of the
things you've already told us are true?

796
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.960
Because it makes more sense than anything
else. It's in the Bible. I

797
00:53:20.039 --> 00:53:22.639
hear you. We we just went
round and round on that earlier today.

798
00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:28.280
And I don't know. The Bible
is made up of hearsay, an old

799
00:53:28.320 --> 00:53:31.039
tech, the Bibel Bible makes no
sense. I mean, I'm on board

800
00:53:31.039 --> 00:53:36.840
with that. Why is the Book
of Emmanuel not that way? Because it's

801
00:53:36.880 --> 00:53:39.440
his true teachings. You have to
read it to understand it. Do you,

802
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:44.719
okay, James? Do you appreciate
that there's a distinction between a claim

803
00:53:45.079 --> 00:53:47.760
and the evidence presented for the claim. If I tell you that there are

804
00:53:47.760 --> 00:53:52.119
flowers in my backyard and that fairies
planted them there, and if you were

805
00:53:52.159 --> 00:53:54.480
to ask me, how do you
know that's true? If I said,

806
00:53:54.519 --> 00:53:58.320
well, because it makes more sense
than if the fairies weren't there. Have

807
00:53:58.599 --> 00:54:01.840
I gotten you any closer to I
don't. I don't go by that,

808
00:54:02.280 --> 00:54:07.960
you know, just logic, Yeah, exactly what you just did. I

809
00:54:08.000 --> 00:54:12.239
don't. I don't don't. I
don't listen to that. I know it's

810
00:54:12.280 --> 00:54:16.599
true because there is a profit of
the New Age. I'll give you as

811
00:54:16.639 --> 00:54:21.079
initials as is, D, E, A M. That's all say,

812
00:54:21.280 --> 00:54:29.920
and I don't need a yeah.
Yeah. I think we're gonna leave it

813
00:54:30.000 --> 00:54:34.000
here. I want to point out
to you that we keep talking to folks

814
00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.280
today and that you can compare this
to some of our other conversations. Why

815
00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:43.519
should we believe that this book is
the correct book. We have already said

816
00:54:43.519 --> 00:54:46.559
that because of like the amount of
tradition or how long it's been around doesn't

817
00:54:46.639 --> 00:54:52.039
make it make sense. The fact
that you might feel some particular emotion when

818
00:54:52.039 --> 00:54:54.840
you read it doesn't make it make
sense. And the mere fact that you

819
00:54:54.880 --> 00:55:00.079
are sort of cobbling together a narrative
to describe all these disparate facts of you

820
00:55:00.119 --> 00:55:07.119
know, semi semi accuracy, doesn't
make any of this makes sense. I

821
00:55:07.159 --> 00:55:09.639
really appreciate you given us a try, and I hope they have a great

822
00:55:09.639 --> 00:55:14.079
weekend. Ye, they didn't kill
them. And the name Jesus Christ comes

823
00:55:14.119 --> 00:55:17.480
actually from a death call from Greece. Oh okay, and we're just stacking

824
00:55:17.480 --> 00:55:21.559
more. I wanted to give you
a moment, but we appreciate you.

825
00:55:22.159 --> 00:55:25.400
Take a good care friend. Okay, Well, in order to have more

826
00:55:25.480 --> 00:55:30.280
conversations like these, we rely on
your support, and I would like to

827
00:55:30.320 --> 00:55:34.920
just take a moment to encourage people
to look at all the different ways that

828
00:55:34.960 --> 00:55:37.920
you can support talk Ethan and the
mission of the Atheist Community of Austin.

829
00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:43.039
One is through our merch store,
where you can get a new limited edition

830
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:47.280
T Search Science because the answer never
turned out to be magic. Ever,

831
00:55:47.719 --> 00:55:53.039
terribly terribly true more pressing in these
desperate times. Visit tiny dot cc slash

832
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:58.840
merch Aca. We'd also love to
ask you to like this video, to

833
00:55:58.920 --> 00:56:02.880
subscribe to this channel, to enable
those notifications, to comment on your favorite

834
00:56:02.920 --> 00:56:07.400
calls and videos, to be part
of this community and mixing it up,

835
00:56:07.440 --> 00:56:12.920
but also to help us spread the
mission and to get this content out in

836
00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:15.599
front of as many people as we
can, because Lord knows the world needs

837
00:56:15.599 --> 00:56:21.760
critical thinking. Now. Please help
us by becoming a channel channel member,

838
00:56:21.960 --> 00:56:25.239
by joining the super chat, and
by leaving us with as many questions and

839
00:56:25.239 --> 00:56:29.519
comments as you can. We read
them as often as we possibly can.

840
00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:35.559
You can also find us on Patreon, tiny dot cc slash patreon t and

841
00:56:36.239 --> 00:56:39.920
yeah, please help us to continue
this ongoing mission so that Kenneth and I

842
00:56:39.960 --> 00:56:45.639
can have more and more of these
not at all exhausting or even vaguely upsetting

843
00:56:45.719 --> 00:56:49.840
conversations. All right, if you've
got more in the tank, I think

844
00:56:49.880 --> 00:56:54.079
we can talk to Ryan and Kentucky, who also believes that the Bible might

845
00:56:54.119 --> 00:56:58.719
be perfect? Is that the case? Ryan? All right, we will

846
00:56:58.800 --> 00:57:04.239
come back to Ryan a little later
and try. Now Manuel in the Dominican

847
00:57:04.280 --> 00:57:07.159
Republic anyway him what can we do
for you today? Hey guys getting here

848
00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:09.960
now? Just we can Yeah,
what's going on? Hey? Hi,

849
00:57:10.119 --> 00:57:15.320
give a good afternoon. So very
quick, I want to like introduce myself

850
00:57:15.360 --> 00:57:22.079
on Manuel from the Dominican Republic.
I love the show. I recently just

851
00:57:22.119 --> 00:57:25.920
started hearing the show, and I
love it because I think it's the only

852
00:57:25.960 --> 00:57:31.079
space that I personally have where Oh
no, we maybe have been disconnected.

853
00:57:31.400 --> 00:57:36.679
Well, we will try again here
as well. All right. I will

854
00:57:36.760 --> 00:57:42.280
take a brief moment to encourage people
to again just be part of this conversation

855
00:57:42.400 --> 00:57:45.280
with us, to join us on
all these different platforms, and to not

856
00:57:45.519 --> 00:57:51.639
let this be a situation where Kenneth
and I just sort of alone lecture out

857
00:57:51.679 --> 00:57:55.119
into the world. We want to
be creating a space where people can communicate

858
00:57:55.159 --> 00:58:00.000
and explore these ideas together, find
some of the flaws to our arguments,

859
00:58:00.559 --> 00:58:06.000
find ways to better understand the universe. And let's do that as a group.

860
00:58:06.159 --> 00:58:07.920
You can become a part of the
Talk Heaven the community and our fan

861
00:58:08.039 --> 00:58:15.639
run facebook page at tiny dot cc
slash fbthg, and you can join talk

862
00:58:15.719 --> 00:58:21.519
Heathen on TikTok where Kenneth went live
this morning and I was having some interesting

863
00:58:21.559 --> 00:58:27.400
conversations about what people believe and why. We would definitely encourage you to subscribe

864
00:58:27.440 --> 00:58:30.719
and to join that community or to
find out more about our organization at Atheist

865
00:58:30.800 --> 00:58:36.199
hyphen Community dot org and to give
us an email. Let us know how

866
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:37.599
you think, what you think about
how we're doing, what we could be

867
00:58:37.639 --> 00:58:40.760
doing a little bit differently, what
we could be doing better. Email us

868
00:58:40.800 --> 00:58:45.679
at TV at Atheist hyphen Community dot
org. And all right, let's try

869
00:58:45.960 --> 00:58:50.400
again with Ryan in Kentucky. Ryan, what can we do for you today?

870
00:58:50.480 --> 00:58:52.360
Go here? Mate? Yes,
we can't kis on your mind?

871
00:58:52.800 --> 00:58:54.880
Not much. Yeah, I was
just kind of calling about the prompt that

872
00:58:54.960 --> 00:58:58.400
was on there earlier. You know, is the Bible of the God parson

873
00:58:59.159 --> 00:59:01.039
the God of the Bible perfect.
Yeah, I was just kind of going

874
00:59:01.119 --> 00:59:06.079
to maybe trying to find that position
if you guys had any quarrels with it,

875
00:59:06.199 --> 00:59:08.639
or you know, hear from your
guys's stance on that. This is

876
00:59:08.880 --> 00:59:12.519
a huge one of my own opinion
on it as well. Yeah, No,

877
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:15.239
I really want to hear from you. This is a really important one

878
00:59:15.280 --> 00:59:17.320
for me, and it's one that's
come up the last couple of times that

879
00:59:17.360 --> 00:59:21.800
I've been on air, And I
really do want to take a brief moment

880
00:59:21.840 --> 00:59:27.480
and recognize that this sort of modern
thought around biblical inerrancy, or the notion

881
00:59:27.519 --> 00:59:31.360
that the Bible has to be perfect, is somewhat new and not necessarily the

882
00:59:31.400 --> 00:59:37.639
way that people have chosen to define
religious thought for a number of centuries.

883
00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:42.679
And I really want to suggest that
the Bible kind of has to be perfect

884
00:59:42.760 --> 00:59:45.519
in order for any of this to
make sense. So tell us Ryan,

885
00:59:45.639 --> 00:59:50.639
like, what makes you believe that
the Bible is perfect? And does that

886
00:59:50.760 --> 00:59:53.000
question matter to you? I think
it absolutely does matter. I think it's

887
00:59:53.159 --> 00:59:59.880
absolutely critical for the Christian faith that
it does not have any untruth in it.

888
01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:02.320
First of all, I'm human in
terms of in terms of truth.

889
01:00:02.639 --> 01:00:06.840
Um, So sort of in some
way, it's like the Bible is viewed,

890
01:00:07.000 --> 01:00:08.079
you know, on my end,
as a as kind of more of

891
01:00:08.239 --> 01:00:13.679
a library than a you know,
a single book, um, because it's

892
01:00:13.719 --> 01:00:16.159
obviously it stretches back a long time, and you've got many different authors that

893
01:00:16.199 --> 01:00:21.199
are coming in and different styles of
writing, different ways of teaching. You

894
01:00:21.199 --> 01:00:24.639
know, you've got poetic books,
you've got more historically founded books and things

895
01:00:24.679 --> 01:00:28.960
like that. So you've got all
of these different types of teachings, a

896
01:00:28.960 --> 01:00:31.159
lot of storytelling, you know,
a lot of um, a lot of

897
01:00:31.199 --> 01:00:35.519
straight up preaching, you know.
And I think that it's all true,

898
01:00:35.800 --> 01:00:37.880
at least from my understanding and what
I've been able to gather at this point

899
01:00:37.880 --> 01:00:42.559
in my life, in so far
as I've understood it, um, and

900
01:00:42.639 --> 01:00:45.559
that all of the stories, though
they may not be historically or scientifically true,

901
01:00:45.800 --> 01:00:51.679
give some truth to our experience that
each of them does in their own

902
01:00:51.800 --> 01:00:54.559
separate way. So but as a
I don't I don't want to strung end

903
01:00:54.960 --> 01:01:00.320
say. What I'm basically getting is
that it doesn't necessary early matter if the

904
01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:07.280
Bible is true in like a direct
or literal sense, because the general vibe,

905
01:01:07.320 --> 01:01:10.280
like the story of it is accurate, and that's the important part,

906
01:01:10.360 --> 01:01:14.119
right sure, sure like it Like
there are there are a lot of people

907
01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:16.159
that take the Bible literalistically. I
know. It's a very common you know,

908
01:01:16.440 --> 01:01:20.639
it's it's a very common practice in
you know, your more Protestant fates,

909
01:01:20.639 --> 01:01:23.000
you know, a methodism, Baptism
that it's taken as more of a

910
01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:27.360
you know, they have sola scriptura, you know, like the understanding of

911
01:01:27.400 --> 01:01:31.679
the literalism of the Bible, which
to me personally doesn't make sense, and

912
01:01:31.719 --> 01:01:35.679
it's hard to get behind that because
there's a lot in the Bible that would

913
01:01:35.679 --> 01:01:39.159
not make sense from a literalistic standpoint
or from a scientific standpoint, a historical

914
01:01:39.199 --> 01:01:45.400
standpoint, and that rather you have
to individually take all separate stories of the

915
01:01:45.400 --> 01:01:49.519
Bible and view them under different lenses
to find the truth that is hidden in

916
01:01:49.559 --> 01:01:52.480
the style of which it is written. So if it's about interpretation, then

917
01:01:52.599 --> 01:01:57.320
does it even matter if it's accurate
or true? I think it does because

918
01:01:57.440 --> 01:02:00.760
interpretation is important as I view it, which is why so I'm Catholic,

919
01:02:00.920 --> 01:02:05.679
okay um, I would consider myself
a part of the Catholic faith and as

920
01:02:05.719 --> 01:02:07.960
I found it. You know,
so far this is a big you know

921
01:02:07.199 --> 01:02:10.519
quarrel between uh you know, Christians, Methodist, Baptist, you know,

922
01:02:10.599 --> 01:02:15.760
Protestants and the Catholic churches. Is
really big on interpretation and the authority of

923
01:02:15.960 --> 01:02:22.280
the Catholic Church to interpret the Bible
in a specific way where there has to

924
01:02:22.320 --> 01:02:25.760
be there There cannot be an from
my perspective, and from what I understand,

925
01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:30.039
it only makes logical sense that there
has to be a definitive interpret true

926
01:02:30.480 --> 01:02:35.079
one way of interpreting each text,
you know, like, you can't you

927
01:02:35.119 --> 01:02:37.639
can't have like somebody who's like,
well, this is my truth of this

928
01:02:37.719 --> 01:02:39.119
text. No, well this is
my truth. Well, then nobody ever

929
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:45.159
comes to really any solid truth,
and there's no way of really getting down

930
01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:46.400
to what the actual truth of the
text is. You know. It's like

931
01:02:46.440 --> 01:02:50.719
it's like playing a game of baseball, and if you don't have an umpire

932
01:02:50.800 --> 01:02:52.960
there, then everybody's just squabbling about
what the rules of the game are and

933
01:02:53.000 --> 01:02:58.280
nobody's actually playing the game, which
is to try and get try and reach

934
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:01.679
salvation or reach happy or get you
know. Yeah, I mean, I

935
01:03:02.599 --> 01:03:08.159
your point, like, there needs
to be some amount of consensus at least

936
01:03:08.199 --> 01:03:12.360
about what's going on, but I
can't helpe it. Feel like, at

937
01:03:12.360 --> 01:03:15.400
the very beginning of this call,
I heard you say pretty plainly that the

938
01:03:15.400 --> 01:03:21.360
Bible needs to be completely accurate,
and now are sort of saying, well,

939
01:03:21.519 --> 01:03:25.800
yeah, it's accurate so long as
your interpretation is correct, which feels

940
01:03:25.880 --> 01:03:30.320
like a little bit of a cheap
Is that fair, Kenneth, Or am

941
01:03:30.320 --> 01:03:34.960
I in a little too hard?
Like? No? Yeah, I mean

942
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:38.920
how do you respond to that Ryan
like interpretation or truth just on its face?

943
01:03:39.079 --> 01:03:42.639
Well, I mean yeah, I
mean I think I probably at the

944
01:03:42.639 --> 01:03:46.119
beginning of a call could have probably
communicated that better. Um, but I

945
01:03:46.159 --> 01:03:50.920
think, you know, I think
that truth in its entirety. I don't

946
01:03:50.960 --> 01:03:53.880
think that for something to be a
fact, it has to be in a

947
01:03:53.920 --> 01:03:58.719
certain realm or a certain stratosphere.
Right, So it doesn't have to be

948
01:03:58.760 --> 01:04:00.719
a scientific fact for something to be
a fact. Can you do me a

949
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:04.280
favorite when you use the word truth
the way that just because at this point

950
01:04:04.360 --> 01:04:06.920
I have no idea what we're doing. Yeah, the philosophy if this is

951
01:04:06.960 --> 01:04:11.280
so complicated when you when you use
the word truth, can you just tell

952
01:04:11.320 --> 01:04:14.440
me what that means? What is
truth? Truth is? I guess truth

953
01:04:14.519 --> 01:04:17.599
is something that's held by the standard
of of what we know and um,

954
01:04:17.679 --> 01:04:20.599
something that is falsifiable, I suppose. Okay, So now I have to

955
01:04:20.639 --> 01:04:24.800
ask you what does it mean to
know something? What is that? What

956
01:04:25.039 --> 01:04:27.480
are you talking about? Okay,
So what what do you mean by that

957
01:04:27.559 --> 01:04:30.079
question? I'm asking you to define
the word that you use, so I

958
01:04:30.079 --> 01:04:31.880
know what you meant the word.
No, I guess, I mean,

959
01:04:32.039 --> 01:04:36.039
I guess. The way I think
of it is you reason within your your

960
01:04:36.119 --> 01:04:43.559
human brain and you logically go through
steps to determine whether or not something is

961
01:04:43.719 --> 01:04:47.079
worthy of belief or if it's not
worthy. This is great, We're we're

962
01:04:47.079 --> 01:04:51.360
tugging on this string. What what
what makes something worthy of belief? If

963
01:04:51.440 --> 01:04:57.440
you've come to a logical conclusion and
there's different factors, I suppose like there's

964
01:04:57.440 --> 01:05:00.960
a there's a logical sense. Um. I guess maybe there's a there's an

965
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:04.159
emotional sense with it as well,
But but it's I think it's more rooted

966
01:05:04.239 --> 01:05:11.039
in in logically coming to a conclusion
that that's true. That's something that something

967
01:05:11.119 --> 01:05:15.079
has more reason for it being a
certain way than it would be without it.

968
01:05:15.119 --> 01:05:17.400
Sounds like we've gone in a big
circle. Let me let me tell

969
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:19.559
you. Let me throw some ideas
out there and see if you agree with

970
01:05:19.559 --> 01:05:24.119
me. Your right. So,
So, when when I'm thinking about what's

971
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:28.039
true, I'm just thinking about what
is consistent with reality. If something corresponds

972
01:05:28.079 --> 01:05:30.199
to reality, I think of that
as being true. Yeah. When I'm

973
01:05:30.239 --> 01:05:33.920
when I'm thinking about knowledge, I'm
thinking about something that is a generally speaking,

974
01:05:33.920 --> 01:05:38.239
a justified true belief. Okay,
So if I'm convinced something is the

975
01:05:38.280 --> 01:05:42.039
case and it actually is the case, and I have some evidence for that,

976
01:05:42.239 --> 01:05:45.519
I would say that that that's that's
knowledge. Right. And then but

977
01:05:45.559 --> 01:05:48.159
then when we're assessing, like like
what makes a belief like worthy? The

978
01:05:48.239 --> 01:05:53.679
worthiness of a belief? Um,
I mean I personally care primarily about whether

979
01:05:53.760 --> 01:05:56.360
or not my beliefs are true.
I want to believe true things. I

980
01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:00.480
value truth. But people can people
can place all kinds of different value judgments

981
01:06:00.480 --> 01:06:02.119
on what they believe. People.
A lot of people believe stuff because they

982
01:06:02.119 --> 01:06:04.280
just like how it makes them feel. You know, there's all kinds of

983
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:09.000
reasons for believing. Some people can
have pragmatic reasons for believing something. So

984
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:14.400
when we're evaluating the Bible and trying
to figure out what's true for someone like

985
01:06:14.440 --> 01:06:17.119
me who cares about that kind of
thing, like why would I believe anything

986
01:06:17.480 --> 01:06:20.519
in the Bible? Well, I
suppose you could look at the world around

987
01:06:20.559 --> 01:06:24.760
you. Okay. Um, let's
say let's say we have we have a

988
01:06:24.840 --> 01:06:28.639
we have different, um, different
paths of truth, right. I mean,

989
01:06:28.719 --> 01:06:30.719
I guess in today's culture you would
understand it as an objective and a

990
01:06:30.800 --> 01:06:35.920
subjective sense of the truth. I
don't because because because I think truth is

991
01:06:35.960 --> 01:06:42.440
what's consistent with reality. So there's
that objective thing of what's consistent with reality,

992
01:06:42.599 --> 01:06:47.679
and my subjective viewpoints may or may
not be consistent with reality aka mayor

993
01:06:48.039 --> 01:06:50.199
sure true? You know, yeah, I was. I was thinking that

994
01:06:50.320 --> 01:06:53.920
yesterday too. By the way I
was, I was thinking about objective and

995
01:06:53.960 --> 01:06:57.880
subjective truth, and I was thinking
objective truth is subjective truth is really just

996
01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.079
an objective truth about somebody. But
anyw, sorry, I'm going on a

997
01:07:00.079 --> 01:07:04.679
tangent. But just like with respecting
the Bible, right, you could pick

998
01:07:04.719 --> 01:07:08.760
any claim you want to. It's
in the Bible. And I'm just wondering,

999
01:07:08.800 --> 01:07:12.280
like, what would be it the
reason for believing something that's in the

1000
01:07:12.280 --> 01:07:15.840
Bible. I suppose that that God
created the universe. Let's go with that.

1001
01:07:15.000 --> 01:07:17.559
Okay, there's so there's our claim. So what would be what would

1002
01:07:17.599 --> 01:07:21.719
be the reason if I value truth? Why why should I believe that?

1003
01:07:21.800 --> 01:07:27.000
Okay? So there's a there's a
causality of things, right, um,

1004
01:07:27.039 --> 01:07:30.360
as we can tell in reality,
like you know, everything has a causality.

1005
01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:32.039
You know, so in the way
that matter works, the way the

1006
01:07:32.159 --> 01:07:35.039
energy works, it's you don't you
come back in time? You know,

1007
01:07:35.159 --> 01:07:41.480
it's it's similar to but not exactly
akin to uh, you know, parents

1008
01:07:41.639 --> 01:07:44.480
and children, you know, you
are caused by your parents, and your

1009
01:07:44.480 --> 01:07:45.559
parents are caused by their parents,
you know, so to speak. But

1010
01:07:45.599 --> 01:07:48.400
it's in similar ways, not exactly
the same, but in similar ways.

1011
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:53.840
Matter shape shifts and forms and changes. And you know, we have come

1012
01:07:53.880 --> 01:07:56.800
to this point now. We have
used our sciences and this has been a

1013
01:07:56.840 --> 01:07:59.800
great tool of sciences that are a
great tool to go back in time and

1014
01:08:00.760 --> 01:08:03.840
reconstruct how things came to be,
until eventually we've gotten to the point where

1015
01:08:03.840 --> 01:08:08.159
we where we've come to the Big
Bang the understanding the Big Bang I'm a

1016
01:08:08.159 --> 01:08:11.840
believer in the Big Bang theory,
but there still is a you know,

1017
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:16.600
a question that comes to there has
to be a causality even before the Big

1018
01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:21.640
Bang, things have a reason,
something that effects have causes. I don't

1019
01:08:21.680 --> 01:08:26.199
mean to cut you off, but
when Kenneth talks about truth, he says,

1020
01:08:26.439 --> 01:08:30.039
it is things that we see in
reality, like an idea that comports

1021
01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:35.039
with reality. That's truth. We
have been talking to you, Ryan for

1022
01:08:35.279 --> 01:08:42.359
almost ten minutes now, and we
still don't have any notion what your definition

1023
01:08:42.479 --> 01:08:45.640
of truth really is. And I
hope that you can appreciate why that would

1024
01:08:45.640 --> 01:08:51.479
make me very hesitant to take your
guidance on the creation of the universe,

1025
01:08:51.600 --> 01:08:57.079
or your guidance on what I should
do with my quote unquote soul or who

1026
01:08:57.119 --> 01:09:00.800
I should be praying to and worshiping
to. And when you talk about the

1027
01:09:00.840 --> 01:09:05.159
Bible being true and you struggle to
really tell me what truth even is,

1028
01:09:05.239 --> 01:09:09.680
let alone how we know the Bible
is true, I am going to have

1029
01:09:09.800 --> 01:09:13.479
a little bit of cause for concern. Is that can you appreciate, if

1030
01:09:13.520 --> 01:09:18.079
not my actual beliefs, why somebody
in my position would be hesitant to take

1031
01:09:18.119 --> 01:09:23.319
their cues from you. Absolutely,
I understand that. Um. I would

1032
01:09:23.399 --> 01:09:26.680
like to say too, you know
that this this conversation that we're having,

1033
01:09:26.720 --> 01:09:30.279
first of all, is very is
going to be very brief, and it's

1034
01:09:30.359 --> 01:09:32.279
you know, it's in a situation
where we don't have a lot of time

1035
01:09:32.279 --> 01:09:38.039
to talk about this, right,
and the claims that you guys stand behind.

1036
01:09:38.079 --> 01:09:41.199
You know, I would assume you're
both atheists, right, um am?

1037
01:09:41.239 --> 01:09:44.279
I am I right in assuming that
yere I'll be an atheist when I

1038
01:09:44.319 --> 01:09:45.680
do the later show today, I'm
a human. You don't even have to

1039
01:09:45.720 --> 01:09:49.439
assume because we talk about it pretty
publicly. Yeah sure, yeah, Okay,

1040
01:09:49.439 --> 01:09:54.600
Well, then there's there's a scientific
realm that that you guys dabble in.

1041
01:09:54.760 --> 01:09:58.039
I would say, you guys mainly
plant yourselves in, which is only

1042
01:09:58.119 --> 01:10:00.279
justin It's only fair, and it's
only right in your position. However,

1043
01:10:00.399 --> 01:10:08.119
mine is coming more of a more
of an unstudied or less material understanding of

1044
01:10:08.159 --> 01:10:10.920
the way that the world operates and
the way the world looks. Therefore,

1045
01:10:11.079 --> 01:10:15.079
I believe it to be a much
more complex way of understanding how reality works

1046
01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:20.319
in terms of how long it complex
in the way of meaning that it takes

1047
01:10:20.479 --> 01:10:26.319
much more time to explain. And
so you like, I want to draw

1048
01:10:26.359 --> 01:10:30.439
attention that, Ryan, and I'm
only cutting you off because of the intermurs

1049
01:10:30.479 --> 01:10:32.880
of time. Right, Ryan,
you use the word understanding, and I

1050
01:10:32.920 --> 01:10:36.800
want to draw your attention to the
difference between an answer and an explanation.

1051
01:10:36.960 --> 01:10:41.279
Okay, if someone were to ask
Christy or I, Hey, what is

1052
01:10:41.439 --> 01:10:45.520
like causally prior to the Big Bang? I feel fairly safe in saying that

1053
01:10:45.520 --> 01:10:48.199
that both of us would tell you
that we don't know. Christy am I

1054
01:10:48.239 --> 01:10:50.199
am? I out in left field
here? Yeah, No, That's where

1055
01:10:50.199 --> 01:10:54.840
I would go with it. Yeah, So so I'm going there's there's a

1056
01:10:54.880 --> 01:10:57.840
barrier to like, there's a limit
to my knowledge. And you know,

1057
01:10:57.920 --> 01:11:00.840
I can look around and say,
as far as I can tell, effects

1058
01:11:00.920 --> 01:11:03.720
have causes. Someone would have to
demonstrate to me that the Big Bang itself

1059
01:11:03.800 --> 01:11:08.800
is an effect before asserting that it
is that it had a cause, and

1060
01:11:08.840 --> 01:11:11.880
then all their work would still be
in front of them to demonstrate what that

1061
01:11:12.000 --> 01:11:14.960
cause was or how they could know
about it or anything. So right,

1062
01:11:15.039 --> 01:11:18.199
so when someone starts going down the
line that you went down of Okay,

1063
01:11:18.199 --> 01:11:21.319
well, hey, look we know
that effects have causes and the cause of

1064
01:11:21.359 --> 01:11:28.560
everything is the Biblical God. I
just I want you to appreciate just how

1065
01:11:28.680 --> 01:11:32.840
much legwork you you really would have
to justify that it's kind of a claim.

1066
01:11:32.960 --> 01:11:36.039
Yes, yeah, absolutely, it's
a lot of leg work. Absolutely,

1067
01:11:36.119 --> 01:11:40.600
how many yeah, like you tell
me twoys, you know, being

1068
01:11:40.600 --> 01:11:43.640
a Christian, and I really do
enjoy these conversations, so I have them

1069
01:11:43.640 --> 01:11:45.000
a lot. So it's it is, it's a lot of legwork and for

1070
01:11:45.079 --> 01:11:49.840
every for every answer that I give. And this is probably in junction with

1071
01:11:50.079 --> 01:11:54.800
my own I don't know if you
want to call it evangelistic style or my

1072
01:11:55.119 --> 01:11:59.640
way of um, my way of
communicating myself. But I take, I

1073
01:11:59.760 --> 01:12:01.880
take a question, and I try
to trace it all the way back down

1074
01:12:01.920 --> 01:12:03.920
to its fruit, and then I
try to, you know, because I

1075
01:12:04.039 --> 01:12:08.079
want to give the fullest answer,
you know, so I'm probably a little

1076
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:12.439
unskilled at that coming to a concise
answer quickly. So you know, obviously

1077
01:12:12.960 --> 01:12:16.039
I hear that, and I started
jump in Ryan, this will be sort

1078
01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:18.720
of the last word for me before
we move on to the next call.

1079
01:12:19.239 --> 01:12:26.960
But we started the show with a
recognition that they're this sort of like mystical,

1080
01:12:27.520 --> 01:12:32.640
it's esoteric, cabbalistic, very hard
to understand. Aspect seems to be

1081
01:12:32.840 --> 01:12:38.319
not a bug in religion, but
rather a feature. And I would really

1082
01:12:38.399 --> 01:12:42.880
encourage you to consider that, like
why is it that these faith claims are

1083
01:12:43.000 --> 01:12:47.079
so difficult to just simply spit out
in simple language? Why does it take

1084
01:12:47.199 --> 01:12:51.560
us ten minutes to agree on a
definition for the word truth. I don't

1085
01:12:51.600 --> 01:12:58.680
want to be dismissive or overly reductive. I love the philosophy of moral reasoning

1086
01:12:58.800 --> 01:13:02.439
and the epistemiology, like how do
we understand these things? I'm okay with

1087
01:13:02.560 --> 01:13:06.439
getting into the weeds and spending a
lot of time trying to define these simple

1088
01:13:06.600 --> 01:13:11.800
terms. But I have to suggest
to you that the fact that there is

1089
01:13:11.960 --> 01:13:17.880
so much exception finding and sort of
circular paradoxical reasoning around. All of this

1090
01:13:18.279 --> 01:13:23.680
seems to be not just like smoke. It seems to be the entire fire.

1091
01:13:23.720 --> 01:13:26.960
It seems to be the entire thing
that you have to offer here.

1092
01:13:27.159 --> 01:13:30.760
And so I would encourage you not
just to maybe be more concise in your

1093
01:13:30.800 --> 01:13:34.880
presentation, because I'm not really here
to nag you about the way you talk

1094
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:39.239
about it. I'd like to encourage
you to be a little bit more critical

1095
01:13:39.319 --> 01:13:42.399
in the way that you think about
it, and I hope that you will

1096
01:13:42.520 --> 01:13:45.359
put some of that thought into it
and maybe give us a call in the

1097
01:13:45.399 --> 01:13:46.439
future. All Right, well,
I real appreciate you guys. You guys

1098
01:13:46.479 --> 01:13:49.520
have a good day, aren't you
too fair enough? Take care? Okay?

1099
01:13:49.560 --> 01:13:55.159
Well, I you know I mentioned
that other show that Apeist Experience that'll

1100
01:13:55.199 --> 01:14:00.319
be coming up later today. I
will actually be appearing on that show two

1101
01:14:00.359 --> 01:14:02.479
weeks and I would really like for
people to be there to cheer me on.

1102
01:14:02.880 --> 01:14:06.399
If you happen to be in the
Austin area on July thirtieth, then

1103
01:14:06.439 --> 01:14:13.000
please consider joining us live in studio
for the broadcast of Talk Heathen and AXP.

1104
01:14:13.319 --> 01:14:15.560
Talk Heathen is going to be hosted
by Jamie Boone and Jamie the Blind

1105
01:14:16.000 --> 01:14:20.000
the Blind Limy, I apologize,
and then I'll be on Atheist Experience with

1106
01:14:20.039 --> 01:14:24.960
my good buddy Objectively Dan. Our
doors open at noon and we would love

1107
01:14:25.000 --> 01:14:27.560
to see you there. It's going
to be a great show and a great

1108
01:14:27.600 --> 01:14:30.520
time. And while we're here,
let me take a quick moment to thank

1109
01:14:30.600 --> 01:14:36.039
some of our patrons, these very
faithful and loyal folks, Kellevi, Helvetia,

1110
01:14:36.319 --> 01:14:42.239
DeVore, Valjeane Oops, all Singularies
Iami, and of course our number

1111
01:14:42.239 --> 01:14:46.359
one Patreon remains dingle Berry Jackson.
Quick shout out to this week's honorable mention,

1112
01:14:46.680 --> 01:14:51.359
UGO Insider. And then I would
like to also take a moment and

1113
01:14:51.439 --> 01:14:57.439
say thank you to George Markowski who
gave us a super chat four ninety nine,

1114
01:14:57.600 --> 01:15:00.680
thanking us for the show and all. Kenneth, is there another call

1115
01:15:00.760 --> 01:15:03.520
you'd like to jump in with?
I? I mean, I think Otari

1116
01:15:03.600 --> 01:15:06.279
works just fine there at the top. Okay, yeah, let's do it.

1117
01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:11.560
Otari in the Nation of Georgia.
What can we do for you today?

1118
01:15:12.000 --> 01:15:14.960
Um? Held on, how are
you doing well? Um? Before

1119
01:15:15.000 --> 01:15:18.239
I get into my topic, if
I may, I want to set the

1120
01:15:18.399 --> 01:15:24.600
course straight on the Bible contract to
the color said, Okay, yeah,

1121
01:15:24.840 --> 01:15:28.159
I think I may have missed a
little bit of what you said just because

1122
01:15:28.319 --> 01:15:31.680
of our phone connection. If you'd
like to walk us through that again,

1123
01:15:31.760 --> 01:15:34.680
or even just jump into it where
you're listening. It sound like you want

1124
01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:38.279
to talk about where the previous colors
said. Yeah, I mean, if

1125
01:15:38.359 --> 01:15:43.760
I may, I want to set
the corsetright on what colors about the set

1126
01:15:43.800 --> 01:15:46.079
that course straight? Do it?
So? He said, claimed that cartous

1127
01:15:46.199 --> 01:15:53.119
not interpret the Bible literally, and
that's that's that's just not true. Our

1128
01:15:53.199 --> 01:15:57.039
contact I'm as well, I'm a
cart mm hmm. Okay, you're saying

1129
01:15:57.039 --> 01:16:00.439
that not all Catholics interpret the Bible
literally, or or that no Catholics interpret

1130
01:16:00.439 --> 01:16:05.039
the Bible literally. No, we
interpret the Bible literally. Okay, yeah.

1131
01:16:05.079 --> 01:16:11.960
Can I ask how you resolve some
of the parent or you know,

1132
01:16:12.119 --> 01:16:15.039
somewhat obvious contradictions within the Bible,
you know, questions like, uh,

1133
01:16:15.199 --> 01:16:18.960
you know, how did Judas die? Well, I don't know about that,

1134
01:16:19.159 --> 01:16:26.439
pertisecutional part um. Any any apparent
to contradictions can be solved by the

1135
01:16:26.800 --> 01:16:31.720
chart kitchen on. It sounds like
you avoided the question. Let's just ask

1136
01:16:31.760 --> 01:16:35.159
you directly, Hey, when you
read the Bible? How did Judas die?

1137
01:16:35.319 --> 01:16:41.720
To be honest, I don't,
I don't. Wait a minute,

1138
01:16:42.359 --> 01:16:44.520
wait, how are you? How
are you making assessments? How do you

1139
01:16:44.520 --> 01:16:47.159
make assessments about whether or not the
Bible has contradictions? And then say something

1140
01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:53.840
like you don't read it? Well, I kind of equipment, councils and

1141
01:16:51.800 --> 01:16:57.439
top You can just listen to you
can just listen to what other people have

1142
01:16:57.520 --> 01:17:01.119
said and be like works for me. Right? Well, our talk is

1143
01:17:01.159 --> 01:17:06.439
that pop is um protected by the
infallible when it talks about faith and moral

1144
01:17:06.640 --> 01:17:11.880
Wait, who's infallible? The pope? Popes are infallible? Well, if

1145
01:17:11.880 --> 01:17:15.239
we look at the chair of picture
and all of the successors that have been

1146
01:17:15.319 --> 01:17:20.720
infallible. And also this is also
part of my um poof for proof for

1147
01:17:20.960 --> 01:17:26.199
God Jess. So problem is this? So if I bote s chart and

1148
01:17:26.359 --> 01:17:31.399
only umcol Church is infallible, only
the Catholic Church is infallible. Let me

1149
01:17:31.399 --> 01:17:33.920
just double check because it sounds like
that what you said, and if it

1150
01:17:34.000 --> 01:17:36.880
is that, I have a strong
reaction to that. Did you just say

1151
01:17:36.880 --> 01:17:42.159
that only the Catholic Church is infallible? Well? Yes, compared to other

1152
01:17:42.479 --> 01:17:46.920
political church as well, like you
can altho they can be infallible or they

1153
01:17:46.920 --> 01:17:51.279
cannot be infallible. I think I
really need to pin you down on this

1154
01:17:51.319 --> 01:17:55.560
one. Is the Catholic Church perfect? Is it inerrant? I mean,

1155
01:17:55.760 --> 01:17:59.920
whatever word you want to apply here, whatever epistemiology we want to run it

1156
01:18:00.039 --> 01:18:03.920
through. Are you comfortable with saying
plainly and clearly that the Catholic Church does

1157
01:18:04.039 --> 01:18:11.319
no wrong, carphone no wrong.
A relate teaching seat that it teaches in

1158
01:18:11.439 --> 01:18:17.520
pencil's contradicts itself. I just pulled
up some stats. Okay, I've got

1159
01:18:17.560 --> 01:18:21.279
a few different sources here with a
few different numbers, but apparently and and

1160
01:18:21.359 --> 01:18:24.800
fact check you don't take my word
on this. I would say everybody look

1161
01:18:24.840 --> 01:18:28.039
it up because because this is a
ten second quick search here. But it's

1162
01:18:28.039 --> 01:18:32.399
consistent with what I've seen before that
between like the early eighties to the early

1163
01:18:32.439 --> 01:18:39.159
two thousands, church leaders paid out
about three quarters of a billion dollars in

1164
01:18:39.439 --> 01:18:45.640
abuse lawsuits where members of the church
had abused children. And I am under

1165
01:18:45.640 --> 01:18:49.840
the impression that the Catholic Church maintains
about a two billion dollars legal defense fund

1166
01:18:50.079 --> 01:18:57.680
for the purpose of protecting, shielding
and enabling serial abusers of children. Does

1167
01:18:57.720 --> 01:19:02.880
this sound like the behavior of an
infallible organization to you? Um? Excuse

1168
01:19:03.000 --> 01:19:08.479
me, maybe you miss said me. Um. I just claim moral inablity.

1169
01:19:08.600 --> 01:19:13.039
I claim to infallibility of the teachings, infallibility of the teachings. So

1170
01:19:13.159 --> 01:19:18.760
the Catholic Church can have teachings that
are super infallible about Jesus and morality and

1171
01:19:18.800 --> 01:19:21.880
the nature of you know, good
and evil and and all that stuff,

1172
01:19:23.000 --> 01:19:30.680
while spending billions of dollars um settling
sexual abuse cases, defending, relocating,

1173
01:19:30.039 --> 01:19:35.399
enabling the behavior of priests, bishops, etc. Who abused children. Well,

1174
01:19:35.920 --> 01:19:41.159
there are people from just like us, yeah, yes, not just

1175
01:19:41.199 --> 01:19:44.439
like us, Not just like us. No, you don't do that kind

1176
01:19:44.479 --> 01:19:45.920
of stuff, right, you're not
You're not out there abusing kids, right

1177
01:19:46.119 --> 01:19:51.479
No? Right, yeah, so
not like you. Yeah. Also,

1178
01:19:49.119 --> 01:19:55.800
they all to be fair from my
point of view. So there's like a

1179
01:19:55.840 --> 01:19:58.960
no true Catholic type of situation,
right, Like, those aren't the real

1180
01:19:59.000 --> 01:20:01.119
Catholics, the one who are out
there doing all the messed up stuff at

1181
01:20:01.279 --> 01:20:05.720
multiple levels, at every level of
the church leadership. It's those aren't like

1182
01:20:05.760 --> 01:20:08.960
the people who know about that,
aren't the real Catholics right, the popes

1183
01:20:09.000 --> 01:20:13.199
and cardinals and bishops, never minding
that the current pope has been not just

1184
01:20:13.319 --> 01:20:17.520
complicit but active in defending against a
lot of these allegations for much of his

1185
01:20:17.640 --> 01:20:20.680
career. I'm sorry to go down
that rabbit trail, and it seems like

1186
01:20:20.680 --> 01:20:27.439
it needs to be said right.
Um again, I just climb clients infiblit

1187
01:20:27.720 --> 01:20:33.600
for tomorrow, Um actions of its
pops or any bishops on or Okay,

1188
01:20:33.640 --> 01:20:36.920
all right, Well, we we
seem to have different, a genuine difference

1189
01:20:36.920 --> 01:20:42.159
of opinions about the nature of an
infallible organization. Um. It does again

1190
01:20:42.359 --> 01:20:45.079
just kind of make me ask,
what does that word even mean? What

1191
01:20:45.159 --> 01:20:49.199
could truth even possibly be? We
we keep kind of circling these issues.

1192
01:20:49.479 --> 01:20:54.319
Uh sorry, I'm struggling a little
bit just to follow what you're saying.

1193
01:20:54.359 --> 01:20:57.600
Just because of the quality of our
connection, I'd hope to maybe be able

1194
01:20:57.640 --> 01:21:00.199
to speak to you again at a
time where we're able to understand each other

1195
01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:04.279
a little bit more clearly and directly. Is there anything else that you want

1196
01:21:04.279 --> 01:21:08.840
to say before we start to wrap
up? Well, I would like to

1197
01:21:08.880 --> 01:21:14.479
say that I if you're on our
open tool idea of God, I think

1198
01:21:14.520 --> 01:21:18.199
that's why you alone thinks it's talks. Then I would touch us to pray

1199
01:21:18.399 --> 01:21:23.119
soon. Sorry, and I hope
that God gives you credits to tools.

1200
01:21:23.840 --> 01:21:26.560
Okay, well you pray for us, and well we'll think for you,

1201
01:21:26.640 --> 01:21:29.960
my friend. Huh, take care. We will leave it there for now.

1202
01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:32.560
Okay. Well, I know that
we are already a little bit long.

1203
01:21:32.680 --> 01:21:35.159
I know I could use just a
little bit of a palate cleanser,

1204
01:21:35.239 --> 01:21:41.239
So I'm gonna want to jump in
quickly with Billy in Louisiana. Billy,

1205
01:21:41.279 --> 01:21:43.560
what's on your mind today? Gentlemen? How are you doing today? Marrow

1206
01:21:43.760 --> 01:21:47.960
Christy when you come down to thanks
to Bernie drops for the weather. Well,

1207
01:21:48.000 --> 01:21:50.800
I'm I am in Texas, tex
now, and I'm all right,

1208
01:21:50.800 --> 01:21:54.479
I'm gonna go ahead and admit all
of this with all. I'm wearing this

1209
01:21:54.640 --> 01:21:59.239
very fancy coat and jim shorts right
now because even with the air condition or

1210
01:21:59.319 --> 01:22:03.479
full blast, my thermometer is reading
eighty two degrees in my office. So

1211
01:22:03.720 --> 01:22:08.000
yeah, it's pretty rough. You're
in Texas at the moment. Kids,

1212
01:22:08.239 --> 01:22:12.399
it's been kind of weird. Anybody
who's currently picturing and now you're doing it

1213
01:22:12.439 --> 01:22:15.920
again. Sorry about that, Okay, billy, I'm sorry, what are

1214
01:22:15.920 --> 01:22:17.920
we here to talk about that?
Well, just recently here in Louisiana,

1215
01:22:18.000 --> 01:22:25.800
Governor John Dell Edwards passed a legislation
that is not requiring all classrooms and I

1216
01:22:25.880 --> 01:22:31.439
want to emphasize this. Requiring all
classrooms came through twelve in all universities to

1217
01:22:31.640 --> 01:22:38.039
have the words in God we Trust
up in every classroom. And to me,

1218
01:22:38.239 --> 01:22:41.279
that kind of like the feast of
the purpose of self reading, you

1219
01:22:41.319 --> 01:22:44.520
know, religion from government, because
the way I see it, and the

1220
01:22:44.560 --> 01:22:49.159
way I've been viewing it, is
that government is just legislating their beliefs into

1221
01:22:49.560 --> 01:22:54.079
these classrooms. Like the thing I
have is, how do you know that

1222
01:22:54.279 --> 01:22:58.760
every student that goes to every one
of these classes one is a believer,

1223
01:22:59.119 --> 01:23:03.560
a feist, seem believe in the
religion that you're trying to basically impose on

1224
01:23:03.680 --> 01:23:06.840
these kids. I mean, I
just don't think it's right. Yeah,

1225
01:23:06.880 --> 01:23:13.199
no, it's it's madness. And
it sort of relies on this idea that

1226
01:23:13.399 --> 01:23:17.560
even if the United States is not
a quote Christian nation, that we are

1227
01:23:17.600 --> 01:23:23.640
anything but an atheistic nation, which
I take great umbrage with as an atheist

1228
01:23:23.720 --> 01:23:28.560
here in this nation, I know
that Texas has recently been working through a

1229
01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:31.079
very similar proposition. Kenneth, what
can you tell us about all of us?

1230
01:23:31.520 --> 01:23:35.600
So, the people who write this
type of legislation and push it through,

1231
01:23:35.920 --> 01:23:40.760
they fundamentally do not care about whether
or not they're going to be little

1232
01:23:40.960 --> 01:23:44.199
atheist kids in the classroom. They
don't care. They don't care if they're

1233
01:23:44.239 --> 01:23:47.720
going to be kids in the classroom
who believe in a different God than whichever

1234
01:23:47.760 --> 01:23:50.600
one they have in mind. This
is this is just the sort of slow

1235
01:23:50.640 --> 01:23:55.920
creep of you know, Christian nationalist
nonsense and happening in our country for a

1236
01:23:55.960 --> 01:24:00.800
while. So I've been pleased to
seeing the news that there are some groups

1237
01:24:00.920 --> 01:24:04.800
that are pushing back on this um, producing in God we Trust signs in

1238
01:24:04.880 --> 01:24:11.319
Arabic for example, or in uh
like with with Satanist themes, you know,

1239
01:24:11.359 --> 01:24:14.760
just to just to challenge the the
application of this law, which is

1240
01:24:14.800 --> 01:24:18.479
going to be like a direct constitutional
violation, you know, respecting a specific

1241
01:24:18.600 --> 01:24:23.119
establishment of religion. Right. So
there's and it's a good thing when this

1242
01:24:23.159 --> 01:24:25.960
stuff happens, right when you when
you have there's been other states that come

1243
01:24:26.000 --> 01:24:28.560
to mind where where a state legislature
will say, okay, we're gonna we're

1244
01:24:28.560 --> 01:24:30.840
gonna put like across you know,
in front of the state cap or or

1245
01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:33.199
something, or the Ten Commandment front
of state cap And then someone's like,

1246
01:24:33.199 --> 01:24:36.720
sweet, we're doing religious displays and
they come wheel out like a giant statue

1247
01:24:36.720 --> 01:24:41.079
of Bahamet or something, just just
to be like, are are we doing

1248
01:24:41.159 --> 01:24:44.000
this? Is this what you want? Legislature? You want, you know,

1249
01:24:44.039 --> 01:24:46.079
displays of religion everywhere, because if
it's going to be okay for one,

1250
01:24:46.119 --> 01:24:48.399
it's got to be okay for all
of them. But that's not what

1251
01:24:48.439 --> 01:24:53.119
these legislatures want. This is this
is this is this is propaganda. It's

1252
01:24:53.119 --> 01:24:56.439
it's indoctrination attempts. I mean,
it's it's it's it's really sad, scary

1253
01:24:56.479 --> 01:25:00.159
stuff. I mean, we could
talk about the threat of Christian nationalism all

1254
01:25:00.239 --> 01:25:03.640
day um and barely scratch the surface
of what's going on in various you know,

1255
01:25:03.720 --> 01:25:06.760
state and local governments and freaks me
out, would be the short answer.

1256
01:25:08.159 --> 01:25:11.479
Yeah. I mean in some and
some asters, I think it's also

1257
01:25:11.520 --> 01:25:15.479
kind of hit the critical of Christians
to kind of put their their doctrine up

1258
01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:18.399
in classrooms. I mean, if
there is a legislation passing thing that in

1259
01:25:18.520 --> 01:25:23.279
Allah we crust or in our case, instant then the flying spaghetti monster.

1260
01:25:23.520 --> 01:25:27.880
We trust these people would be up
in arms, you know, protesting thing

1261
01:25:27.960 --> 01:25:30.680
that you can't have that im needy
classrooms. But they're perfectly okay when having

1262
01:25:30.800 --> 01:25:34.239
their religious doctrine in the classroom.
Well, yes, no, no doubt

1263
01:25:34.319 --> 01:25:40.319
true. The separation of church and
state is not something that we just sort

1264
01:25:40.319 --> 01:25:43.720
of say and then it happens and
then it stays that way. It is

1265
01:25:43.760 --> 01:25:47.479
something that is constantly being eroded and
needs to be rebuilt and defended. And

1266
01:25:47.520 --> 01:25:55.000
we are absolutely seeing some erosion of
that wall going on right now. And

1267
01:25:55.159 --> 01:25:59.680
I appreciate that there are good people
watching shows like this that are working to

1268
01:25:59.760 --> 01:26:02.239
make the world a better place.
In that sense, certainly, it is

1269
01:26:02.279 --> 01:26:06.760
an important aspect of the mission of
the atheist community of Austin. And all

1270
01:26:06.800 --> 01:26:10.680
I can really say about it is
this is some bullshit and we need to

1271
01:26:10.720 --> 01:26:14.039
be doing some stuff about it.
So, Billy, I appreciate you sort

1272
01:26:14.039 --> 01:26:16.479
of drawing our attention to that,
and I hope that, Yeah, I

1273
01:26:16.479 --> 01:26:18.920
hope that people are taking this seriously. Yeah I would too. Well,

1274
01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:28.760
gentlemen, don't don't go to the
you know what, we will see how

1275
01:26:28.800 --> 01:26:31.279
warm it is, but I very
much appreciate that, and I do hope

1276
01:26:31.319 --> 01:26:34.439
that I'll get to see you at
the back cruise and all of that good

1277
01:26:34.479 --> 01:26:39.560
stuff. Okay, well, it
is incredibly hot, so I'm going to

1278
01:26:39.680 --> 01:26:43.279
need to rinse off, cool down
a little bit. We're gonna wrap the

1279
01:26:43.279 --> 01:26:46.039
show up, but that doesn't mean
that the conversation needs to end. Later

1280
01:26:46.079 --> 01:26:50.279
today, we've got the flagship show
of the atheist community of Austin, the

1281
01:26:50.359 --> 01:26:56.239
Nonprofits as always, and later this
afternoon on The Atheist Experience, you can

1282
01:26:56.279 --> 01:27:00.840
see two of my absolute favorite speakers, Johnny p. Angel as well as

1283
01:27:00.960 --> 01:27:05.439
Emma Thorne. And then even beyond, you can go to places like tiny

1284
01:27:05.479 --> 01:27:13.319
dot cc slash AXPTV or tiny dot
cc slash ae NTV where you can catch

1285
01:27:13.560 --> 01:27:18.520
twenty four hours of coverage on shows
like The Atheist Experience, Talk Heathen,

1286
01:27:18.600 --> 01:27:24.199
Truth Wanted, Secular Sexuality, just
to name a few, watch or listen

1287
01:27:24.319 --> 01:27:29.159
to your favorite hosts over decades of
content. Definitely worth a little bit of

1288
01:27:29.199 --> 01:27:32.199
your time. And you know,
while you're watching these different things, while

1289
01:27:32.239 --> 01:27:36.359
you're thinking about these things, be
kind of considering in the back of your

1290
01:27:36.399 --> 01:27:42.199
mind, what is a great slogan
for Satan. We'd love to see that

1291
01:27:42.279 --> 01:27:47.199
in the comments on this video and
to have you weigh in and be part

1292
01:27:47.199 --> 01:27:51.399
of the conversation, part of our
community, Kenneth, before we start to

1293
01:27:51.560 --> 01:27:55.560
give out love rings and head out
for the days, there anything else you

1294
01:27:55.600 --> 01:27:58.319
want to make sure to mention.
I just love talk Eden. This is

1295
01:27:58.319 --> 01:28:00.439
where I sort of like really feel
like I got my start with the ACA

1296
01:28:00.800 --> 01:28:03.640
um And when when you just said
before we send out love rings, my

1297
01:28:03.720 --> 01:28:06.479
little grainch heart was just like,
oh, love rings. It's been a

1298
01:28:06.479 --> 01:28:10.199
minute since I've gotten to give out
love rings, right, Yeah. I

1299
01:28:10.239 --> 01:28:15.760
just cannot express enough gratitude for what
the ACA does. So yeah, yeah,

1300
01:28:15.840 --> 01:28:18.840
well here we go. Yeah yeah, crew, Hey, our incredible

1301
01:28:18.920 --> 01:28:23.000
crew. We love you. Everybody
who is watching, we love you.

1302
01:28:23.039 --> 01:28:27.479
If you don't believe this is your
community, we want you to be a

1303
01:28:27.560 --> 01:28:30.119
part of everything that we're doing on
all across all these different platforms. And

1304
01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:33.079
if you do believe, no,
we don't hate you, We're just not

1305
01:28:33.079 --> 01:28:56.039
convinced. We want the truth.
So watch Truth Wanted Live Friday at seven

1306
01:28:56.039 --> 01:29:00.600
pm Central. Visit tiny dot,
cc, slash y t t W and

1307
01:29:00.680 --> 01:29:04.439
call into the show at five one
two nine nine one nine two four two,

1308
01:29:04.680 --> 01:29:11.079
or connect to the show online at
tiny dot cc slash call tw