WEBVTT

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Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and
Bubo. These guys are your favorites,

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so like to say subscribe and read
it five star and me grgeous question today

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listening watching RENEM always keep its watching
and now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James

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Bubo Fay. All right, so
everybody listening, please welcome doctor Jeff Melgerum

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from Idaho State University, professor of
anatomy and I think physiology, but he's

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definitely in the anthropology department. But
god, if you don't know who Jeff

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is, I don't know why you're
listening to this. So doctor Meldrum,

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thank you so much for coming on
the podcast and sparing an hour or so

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of your time today. Oh you
bet, I'm honored. Thank you for

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the invitation. Thank you, Jeff. Yeah, we really really appreciate it.

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And of course, Jeff, you
do what you do a lot of

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these things all the time basically,
so thank you very much again just for

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coming on. And because you know, the finding Bigfoot thing kind of put

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us on the map, but you
know your academic work put you on the

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map, and that's an entirely different
thing. Well thanks, Yeah, it's

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all perspectives have some douthor I think
so well now, Doctor Meldrim. We

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were talking before we started the recording
that you've actually been catching up on the

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Finding Bigfoot episodes, Like what possessed
you to do that? Well, I

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had, I had some time on
my hands, and I just you know,

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wanted to be able to see what's
been done. That's the thing.

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I mean, I had a sense
of of what you all were up to,

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but had only only watched I think
he Actually you gave me a couple

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of thumb drives several years ago,
several seasons back, and I was able

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to catch up a little bit.
But it's been really fun to sort of

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go through and as I've had questions
about maybe a particular region that has caught

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my attention or or you know,
some encounter, some account or report has

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h has emerged, I've gone back
and looked at some of your experiences and

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and uh, you know a little
about the geography, the town hall meetings,

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it all. It all just helps
me to put myself, you know,

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in the in the environment, in
the in the picture a little bit.

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And it's been really fun to know
you guys better from from the perspective

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of your activities and and approaches to
the evidence. It's been a fun ketchup

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and some novel ideas other attractive sasquatch
too. I know I watched that episode.

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We can tell very carefully. Uh, but I still haven't got the

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rave ball yet to say. Yeah, we get a lot of heating,

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especially from the hunters and stuff.
You know, that's no way to get

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an animal, is well, we
know that, but like, who's going

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to watch you know, Cliff sitting
in the tree stand for four hours silently.

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That's lame, that's bad TV been. I work for their animals,

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but they can work for the sasquatch. We know that. Uh right,

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Yeah, that's that is the question. You know, the curiosity of a

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of a somewhat higher into like you
know, smarter than the average bear.

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As Yogi would say, I think
there is an element of curiosity and interest

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in in our activities and the sites
and smells of campsites or cabins and backyard

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barbecues. I think I think all
those elements have the potential. Uh you

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know, if you're in the right
place at the right time, or if

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the sasquatch is in the right place
at the right time, two to poke

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his nose or hit her nose into
uh, into our business. That's that's

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one way make it interesting when I
their survival needs like calorie intake, and

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they have you know, a suitable
place to stay, I mean once they

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you know, if they if they're
in a really rich abundant food sources,

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they can fill up a day's worse
than four or five hours. Like what

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else are gonna be the rest of
the If there's some interesting thing and they're

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gonna they want to see what's going
on in their territory, they'll come.

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They'll come, They'll into something like
that, like some weird attraction. Yeah.

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And that's a really good point too, Bobo, And one that maybe

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turn on its head for a minute
is for your listeners to think about when

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they you know, I have people
who come and lay claim to a sasquatch,

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you know, poking around, harassing
them or disturbing them, depending on

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their frame of mind, all night
long and complaining about they're not getting any

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sleep because these things are coming around
every night all night long. Well,

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if you stop and think about it, that just doesn't make sense if it

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was a real flesh and blood animal
that like you point out has needs.

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It has to meet those daily caloric
requirements. It has to stay warm,

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it can't be exposed to the elements, you know, indefinitely, and so

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forth. And I think people need
to think about that when they're evaluating what

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they're interpreting as a squatch activity.
To borrow a phrase, uh and uh,

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that's important. So I think that's
an important point. Yeah. And

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you know, one of the biggest
things that stands out to me with all

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the witness interviews in the nine years
of finding Bigfoot, in my ongoing Bigfoot

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little world that I live in here, is that people I speak to have

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a tremendous amount of not all by
any means I want to point that out,

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but a good section of the people, a good percentage of the people

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I speak to, have a really
difficult time differentiating between observation and interpretation.

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Yes, I've had lengthy conversations where, you know, like just like you

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said, I've spent time out with
with investigators and and I will repeatedly point

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out now, is that an observation? Did you do you have documentation of

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that statement? Or are you imposing
an interpretation on your experience, you know,

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putting you know, projecting yourself into
the supposed mind of the sasquatch whenever,

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and this is you know, quite
if all our cards are on the

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table. This is one of the
criticisms that's often leveled not only Finding Bigfoot,

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but at other documentaries out there.
Documentary series is when assertative statements are

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made by the cast members that sesquatch
like this, or sesquatch do that,

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or as if. Even my wife
the other night, who was indulging me

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in watching a few of these shows, she goes, how could they possibly

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know that? Why do they say
things like that? Because I know that's

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exactly right, but sometimes people don't
even realize it. I mean, I

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was in the in the pickup truck
driving with this fellow and he was going

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on relating some of these past experiences
and he'd do it, and I would

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just look at him and I said, I'm just going to raise a finger

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every time you cross the boundary from
observation into speculation or you know, or

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into interpretation. Boy, you know, my head just kept popping up there,

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like I very often feel like raising
a finger when people do that,

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but it's probably not the same finger
you would choose. I was going to

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specify it was an index finger.
Yeah, it might have made that.

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It might have made the point with
a little more force if I had used

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another digit. That's the natural human
condition is to I mean, that's what

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a human naturally does is see I
from You're going to see it from your

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perspective. Everyone has a point of
view from your past experiences, your education.

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And that's where the science has really
come in is because science, that's

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what they did is is cut off
your interpretation and just what's the facts,

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What's what's observable facts? Right?
Well, and you know we we are

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by nature a storytelling species. We
we just like you say, we naturally

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sort of connect the dots and fill
in the gaps, and you know,

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our brains do this. I just
was lecturing to my students about the special

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senses and showed them. You know, we were talking about the blind spot,

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the point at which the optic nerve
enters the back of the eyeball and

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there are no photoreceptive cells in that
spot. It literally is a blind spot.

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But we since we have two eyes, one of the eyes is able

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to make up for the deficit in
the other. But you can do this

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fun little experiment to show how your
brain is so wired in order to fill

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in the missing information. And you
probably have seen these little tests where there's

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a black dot and little X,
and you cover one eye and then you

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move that You move the image closer
and closer, staring at the X,

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and suddenly the black dot disappears.
But it's not just a blank. The

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black dot is on a field of
cross hatching. But when the black dot

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disappears, there's not just a cloud
there, there's cross hatching. The cross

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hatching pattern is perfectly complete. So
your brain sees what the information is surrounding

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the missing data, and it fills
in perfectly well with with that information what

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it expects must be in that missing
space. And so we do that with

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other things too, with stories,
and so it's it's all too easy for

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a witness to take these very tenuous, you know, bits of observation and

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weave them together into a tapestry and
then convince themselves this is what's really happening.

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Yeah, it's kinda I always say, I quote the Bible verse and

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add on to it, you know, like the seek and nichell find,

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and I always add on even if
it's not there. Yeah, Yeah,

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because if you're looking for something and
you expect to find it, or you

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expect bigfoots in your backyard, or
you expect big whatever, they're going to

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be there, whether they are or
not. And as part of not only

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our storytelling, I guess epigenetics,
I guess, I guess that's what it

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would be, but it would we're
kind of a mythological species as well,

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you know, like these storytellings and
how the stories relate to our regular life.

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You know that that's our foundation essentially
as a species. And I guess

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it's pretty hard to shake, even
in our so called enlightened era, I

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guess sure, even and even in
science. The other the other thought I

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was going to add to that.
While I was a graduate student, there

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was an anthropology student, Misha Landau, who got her dissertation in quite some

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notoriety based on her research about how
anthropologists tell stories, how they create these

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these epic, these hero epics in
their portrayal of the evolution of humanity,

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and you know, forging out from
the protection of the forest into the into

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the dangerous planes where there are these
large predators, and so forth and so

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forth, and so even even when
we try to impose discipline of scientific methodology

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to our approach, we still can
fall prey to that tendency to try to

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craft and narrative that makes sense.
I mean, I quite honestly a lot

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of the paranormal if I can get
myself in trouble here with half your audience

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and yep. So I think that's
what leads to some of the acceptance of

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paranormal explanations is people find their inability
to explain in normal terms their experiences and

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so giving up on that, they
resort to extraordinary claims or paranormal explanations.

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You know, if I can't find
where the footprints go, then they must

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have just vanished into thin air,
even though I didn't see them vanish into

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thin air. That must be what
happens. Is the only explanation for you

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know, disregard the fact that I'm
not a good tracker and I can't follow

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a track way to save my life, you know. But I'll come with

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I'll believe that the sasquatch just poofed
into it into an orb of light and

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floated away. You know. But
on the on the other side of the

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flip of that coin, I guess
the other side of that coin is that

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we can actually mine the folklore of
the past to hopefully find some information about

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Sasquatches. And that brings to mind
another finding Bigfoot episode. I don't know

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if you watched I think it was
in Utah. When we were there,

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we visited doctor Lynn McNeil I believe
her name, was a professional folklorist,

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you know, PhD and folklore and
all that jazz at the university there,

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and on our day off, she
basically allowed me access to their folklore files

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and they had files on bigfoot stuff, is that right? Yeah? Yeah,

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And I went to the library and
paid for paid the library to make

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me copies of the entire file.
So there's a very rich obviously, there's

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a very rich folklore tradition on bigfoot
stuff as well as a Native and indigenous

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stories. But yeah, so that
kind of gives us another end for some

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sort of research about the real situation
as well. So those state Utah state,

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Okay, yeah, no, that
I agree and I and I you

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know, those elements are certainly very
important and they're and they're part of the

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human experience, so they are of
value there. There even have been some

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field zoologists who have recognized the utility
of relying upon or resorting to rather maybe

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not relying upon, but using as
a starting off point the folklore, the

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stories about the wildlife in a given
region that the indigenous people talk about,

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and oftentimes their ability to discriminate and
identify species, even down to very fine

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distinctions, is often remarkably accurate.
I mean a lot of good field biologists.

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The first thing they'll do is they'll
go to a village when they're when

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they're exploring for new species or trying
to find out what the endemic species are,

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and who do you interview? You
interview the best hunter, the one

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that brings in the most, you
know, the most successfully brings in the

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game, or or brings in rare
and exotic animals, and you go through

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the litany of what they're familiar with, and it's it's a very useful tool.

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So it's not the folklore and indigenous
knowledge is not something to be to

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be treated lightly. Stay tuned for
more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo

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will be right back after these messages. Yeah, people throw out the baby

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with the bath where you know they
talked to me and said, well,

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Kittie Kyte pulled down the moon and
created this. You know, they're like

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kin of these people think that kite
pulled down the moon out of the sky,

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you know, because they throw everything
out with it, you know.

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But yeah, you look at the
whole total of what they say, like

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whistling in the dog are, you
know, knocking our things that we can

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observe today, They're they're right on
right absolutely. I think one of one

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of the interesting little tidbits that I
gleaned from John Bendernagel's book was he drew

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attention to the fact that while many
of the names given to Bigfoot or Sasquatch

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by the indigenous people are translate to
you know, the hairy man or the

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wild man of the woods, a
lot of them actually point to natural behaviors,

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you know, the eaters of cockles, and you know, other terms

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that describe aspects of their their natural
history. You know, here in Idaho,

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one of the Shoshone references is the
eater of children, which is a

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theme that's pervasive through many different tribal
groups throughout the Pacific Northwest and in the

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Mountain West. And so you know, perhaps based on real incidents somewhere in

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in the mists of time, we
certainly know there's precedent amongst the living great

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apes for that very behavior, snatching
of human children or toddlers and consuming them.

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And so it's not I don't think
it's a just so story. It's

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actually probably has a based on a
grain of truth of a real experience that

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then became you know, since given
the fact that it was such a traumatic

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experience, became a central theme in
identifying these beings. It could be pretty

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rare, but it just the fact
it could happen seven hundred years ago,

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it could happen seven years ago,
and back before they had TV in Western

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culture, that story would come down, whether it's seven years or seven hundred

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years would be like anythings eat kids, right, it becomes part of the

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world tradition, part of the characteristic
Yeah, because that's a pretty distinctive though,

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right exactly. Yeah, it could
be rare. Let's hope it's rare.

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Yeah, well, you know what
it sounds like, and you probably

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have thoughts on this. But like
everything that we know now, we're kind

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of almost even rehashing. Yeah,
we know it, and there's been new

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things uncovered, but we're kind of
still in the same spot. Like I

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was digging through my files a little
a few months ago and I ran across

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that essay and I think it was
Warren Thompson from the Bay Area Group.

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I think it was Warren Thompson,
or it might have been Archie Buffy.

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I think it was Warren. And
he basically wrote what we know about the

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Sasquatch And it's a few page essay, and I was reading through it and

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thinking, we really haven't moved on
so far from here. And I think

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that was written in seventy one or
seventy two, So like, what do

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you think the state of bigfooting is
today? And then is that a good

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thing or a bad thing? Or
do we have a direction? Or are

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we just like treading water? Well, yes, it feels that way sometimes

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that we are just kind of treading
water. And I know that's been kind

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of weighing on me lately, especially
I guess as I get closer to that

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horizon of retirement and so forth,
and and wondering what what what legacy?

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What mark have I left? And
and and what will be the trajectory thereafter?

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But you know, I I've had
that same experience. I wrote a

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similar kind of essay with Richard Greenwell
when we put together a state of the

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science of Sasquatch. It ended up
not getting published. It turns out there

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was a curmudgeon on their scientific advisory
board and it got kabashed, but or

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the kebash was put on it.
I guess that can't make that into a

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verb, but we can do it
if we want. But anyway it was,

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it did not get published. But
reflecting back on the things included there,

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You're right, there are a lot
of fundamental aspects. Well even It's

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funny is the next book that I'm
working on is actually the more it takes

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shape and as I as I formulate
and flesh out the things that I want

242
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to accomplish, in some ways,
I realized in some ways I was redoing

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what Ivan Sanderson did when he did
his global survey of subhuman creatures primates around

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the world. And it's interesting how
so many of the things that he concluded

245
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seemed to have been borne out by
the accumulating data that we have. I

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guess what I'm hoping that we are
accomplishing as this goes along, So we're

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not just treading water, not just
doing the same old, same old.

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But as a scientist, I'm trying
to lay some more credible foundational works and

249
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trying to orchestrate others undertaking such things, you know, so that things like

250
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more incisive evaluation of the Patterson Gilllan
film, for example. I mean,

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it's interesting how as time has gone
forward we have increasing these sophisticated methods of

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addressing what is in that film,
and as well as a broader scientific context

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from which to interpret what's in the
film. But you know my work with

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the Footprints, there are still lingering
things that really need to be kind of

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codified and formulated and archived in such
a way that they're accessible to researchers down

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the pike. But as far as
new trajectories of research itself, well,

257
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I see a couple of things.
For me, it's in and I've said

258
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this before, and we'll see if
they're born out in the future or not.

259
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But I think that the two prongs. One is in the field utilizing

260
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the ever increasingly improved drone technologies and
thermal imaging, and we see that.

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I mean, light ar is still
another opportunity. There's little snippets of that

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that show up on some of the
documentaries, but I think light ar has

263
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an opportunity to provide some further insights
and in combination with that kind of aerial

264
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survey, helping to focus at using
GIS to greater advantage. I don't have

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the skill set to really do that, but at every opportunity I encourage others

266
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who do to take an interest.
The other is in the environmental DNA that

267
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those DNA methods are expanding, the
potential are expanding, probably geometrically, and

268
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there's a couple of aspects, a
couple of challenges. I think that that

269
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addresses. One is we have this
dead end, not dead end, but

270
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we have this roadblock to previous DNA
attempts analysis attempts which usually focus on hair,

271
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and the lack of a cellular adult
in that hair makes it very challenging

272
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to get DNA. That's further complicated
by the fact that if this creature is

273
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is closely allied to the human species, as many suspect, then the difference

274
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between us and them as far as
DNA sequence could be very very small.

275
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I mean, we could be talking
less than one percent. I recently kind

276
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of pulled out of the air a
little analogy to help people to visualize what

277
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this means. Imagine, and we
had an advance calendar. Everyone knows what

278
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an advance calendar is. A little
panel with windows or doorways that open up

279
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in the twenty four days leading up
to Christmas, with a little goodie behind

280
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each door, and the kids would
anxiously wait for the next day when they

281
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could open and take that little piece
of chocolate or a little goodi or small

282
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toy or something. Well, imagine
you had an advance calendar that had one

283
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hundred windows instead of twenty four And
well, let's let's break it down even

284
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a little better than that. I'd
say a thousand windows. So a thousand

285
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windows, and if each of those
windows represents a percentage of difference, and

286
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certainly that's not you know, the
difference is not homogeneously scattered throughout the genome.

287
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It can be in clusters and so
forth, or comprise distinctive gene markers

288
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that are localized particular points in the
genome. But the point is, well,

289
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you've got this advance calendar and there's
only ten windows that have any useful

290
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information for discriminating between humans and sasquatch. But you have a study that only

291
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lets you open ten windows, because
that's all the funding, and that's all

292
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the time your research your molecular biologist
is willing to devote to it. And

293
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so what are the odds that the
ten little doorways you open up stumble upon

294
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one of those ten out of a
thousand windows that will have useful information.

295
00:24:41.119 --> 00:24:45.119
Yeah, and if you don't find
that, then what's your conclusion? The

296
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evidence points to simply being human,
your sequence being human? Jeff, excuse

297
00:24:51.359 --> 00:24:55.559
me, I have a question.
Now, I know that's what I understand

298
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what you're saying. But if it
was a gigantic ptification off that line,

299
00:25:00.480 --> 00:25:03.599
like if it's not one less than
one percent like we think it's in the

300
00:25:03.599 --> 00:25:07.079
homo line, what percent, like
would it be like you you do well,

301
00:25:07.200 --> 00:25:15.039
then it would fall if it's If
we're correct in our current opinion consensus

302
00:25:15.079 --> 00:25:19.839
opinion that Gigantopithecus was most closely related
of the living apes today was most closely

303
00:25:19.880 --> 00:25:26.000
related to the orangutan, as was
suggested by some DNA research recently. Now,

304
00:25:26.039 --> 00:25:30.400
that doesn't mean it's really really close
to the orangutan compared to gorillas and

305
00:25:30.480 --> 00:25:33.519
chimps. It means it's just it's
just somewhere on that side of the fence.

306
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Since the orangutan diverted lot lineage diverged
from the hominoid trunk, and so

307
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it would therefore be bracketed somewhere in
that range of distinction. So like for

308
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chimps, values you'll see reported depending
on which part of the genome is being

309
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examined anywhere from you know, ninety
four percent to ninety eight percent identical to

310
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humans. And so I think gigantic
bitic is you know, we could be

311
00:26:07.359 --> 00:26:12.359
talking a percentage or two or three
more distinctive than if it was say a

312
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:22.000
paranthropist or some some offshoot of a
robust australopithecy of some sort, at which

313
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I think is another viable hypothesis to
be to be considered. So I guess

314
00:26:26.640 --> 00:26:30.359
my question is if it was gigantoline, we would know that already. Not

315
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necessarily, No, I don't think
so, because again the studies that have

316
00:26:37.000 --> 00:26:41.000
been done. I mean, for
example, I I did. I pulled

317
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some soil samples from the nest sites
up to the Olympic Peninsula that the Olympic

318
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:57.119
Project has been examining, and those
were examined by Todd Disstel at NYU,

319
00:26:57.400 --> 00:27:07.359
and basically he looked at one portion
of a gene in the mitochondrial genome and

320
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.279
he chose that one because it's a
good one to differentiate the species of mammals,

321
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:17.839
and it works fine, he pointed
out. When I queried, he

322
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pointed out that it identifies or distinguishes
between humans and Neanderthals. There are like

323
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.359
three markers in that stretch that separate
Neanderthals from humans. So you would think

324
00:27:30.960 --> 00:27:40.440
if sasquatch is less related to us
than a Neanderthal, that it should pick

325
00:27:40.519 --> 00:27:45.160
up differences there. But the problem
with that is the point that I made

326
00:27:45.200 --> 00:27:53.640
earlier is that these differences aren't just
scattered regularly throughout the genome, and even

327
00:27:53.680 --> 00:28:02.319
the comparison between you know, when
you use Neanderthals as a benchmark, Neanderthals

328
00:28:02.319 --> 00:28:08.960
and humans have evolved one way and
are differing ways, resulting in the three

329
00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.920
markers that he's talking about. The
three substitutions not even really markers, but

330
00:28:15.279 --> 00:28:19.839
I can call the markers, but
single nucleotide substitutions. Who's to say that

331
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:26.240
a sasquatch would have had those and
more? You know, it could have

332
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:33.240
evolved in ways that didn't affect that
stretch of DNA that was being compared between

333
00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:37.680
humans and Neanderthals. So there's an
assumption made there, and I've brought this

334
00:28:37.799 --> 00:28:42.640
up. This is kind of an
interesting that I brought this up with numerous

335
00:28:42.680 --> 00:28:49.599
geneticists that I've come in contact with, asking this question. Is the question

336
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:56.240
being are we doing enough? I
mean, is there is there confidence?

337
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:02.799
Are we justified in confidently including that
the studies that have been done so far,

338
00:29:03.599 --> 00:29:11.799
which usually produce one of two conclusions. Either when human DNA quote unquote

339
00:29:11.920 --> 00:29:18.599
human DNA is identified, it's assumed
therefore that the witnesses have handled it and

340
00:29:18.640 --> 00:29:22.400
contaminated it in such a way that
we're picking up their DNA, or that

341
00:29:22.519 --> 00:29:27.880
it's simply a misidentified human hair that's
been shed, you know, it's just

342
00:29:29.079 --> 00:29:32.920
cast about in the environment, or
one of the investigators picked up their own

343
00:29:32.920 --> 00:29:37.440
hair or whatever, you know.
But the third option that is not really

344
00:29:38.000 --> 00:29:47.319
raised is that we haven't sequenced enough
to differentiate between what appears to be human

345
00:29:47.880 --> 00:29:53.240
and what actually is human. And
so these geneticists have uniformedly said, oh,

346
00:29:53.279 --> 00:29:56.680
you're absolutely right. If I were
doing it, they say, I

347
00:29:56.720 --> 00:30:03.880
would sequence the entire mitochondri genome and
at least oh a dozen or so nuclear

348
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:08.559
genes to really come to a conclusion, to draw a conclusion, Well,

349
00:30:08.599 --> 00:30:11.400
that takes a lot more effort and
a lot more work, and a lot

350
00:30:11.400 --> 00:30:17.640
more funding and time. And that's
been the problem. Is the funding not

351
00:30:17.720 --> 00:30:22.039
necessarily an insurmountable problem, but to
get the lab to devote the time and

352
00:30:22.119 --> 00:30:26.839
resources to this question, well,
that's just money then, right, Because

353
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:29.119
I mean I talked to you two
years ago when you were in Colorado.

354
00:30:29.160 --> 00:30:32.799
I got to speak here at length, and I believe you said it was

355
00:30:32.839 --> 00:30:36.680
the guy from New Zealand, right
that did the DNA study at Lockness and

356
00:30:36.720 --> 00:30:38.960
all that about the eels. He
said it would be four hundred and fifty

357
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:41.960
thousand dollars correct to do you,
well, somewhere in that range. He

358
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:48.880
said, two hundred to four hundred
thousand dollars for a multi year project basically,

359
00:30:48.039 --> 00:30:52.920
and to do it, he would
want to have a post stock and

360
00:30:52.960 --> 00:30:57.920
maybe a couple of gradual students devoted
to the project. Because he's pulled in

361
00:30:57.960 --> 00:31:03.440
so many different directions you couldn't devote
his attention singly to this one project.

362
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And exactly he was one of the
geneticists. It was actually one of his

363
00:31:07.839 --> 00:31:12.519
former graduate students that I bumped into. And so those conversations are still underway.

364
00:31:14.680 --> 00:31:22.000
They kind of they kind of got
the dampers put on them when COVID

365
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.839
hit, and so the past year
it's sort of stalled, and he's very

366
00:31:26.880 --> 00:31:33.119
eager to come over to assist with
sample collection and so forth, and so

367
00:31:33.960 --> 00:31:42.119
until travel restrictions are lifted and it's
more feasible for him to do that ad

368
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:52.240
vice versa than We're still in the
very formative stages of those conversations. But

369
00:31:52.279 --> 00:31:53.759
I think that's the way, that's
the way to go. I mean,

370
00:31:55.240 --> 00:31:59.480
it tackles two things. One,
it tackles the issue that we've been discussing

371
00:31:59.559 --> 00:32:05.599
right here. But then even more
importantly perhaps is the fact that we're looking

372
00:32:05.640 --> 00:32:09.640
for the proverbial moving needle in a
haystack, and given the rarity of these

373
00:32:09.680 --> 00:32:16.599
creatures, it's just you know,
finding the sample, collecting the tissue is

374
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very challenging. And if we can
employ a technique that takes a much broader

375
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approach to collecting DNA from the environment
instead of from directly from the donor,

376
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then it ups the odds of winning
the lottery. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot

377
00:32:43.759 --> 00:32:52.720
and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will
be right back after these messages. One

378
00:32:52.759 --> 00:32:57.319
of the other challenges I think is
that the thing that's kind of missing from

379
00:32:57.359 --> 00:33:00.839
a lot of eyewitness accounts or you
know, bigfoots make this structure, bigfoot

380
00:33:00.839 --> 00:33:04.640
broke this tree, bigfoot business,
or that is a one to one correlation

381
00:33:04.839 --> 00:33:08.839
between an actual sasquatch and the thing
you're collecting from. And the nests are

382
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:12.960
promising, but we don't know,
no one's seen them make it. I

383
00:33:12.960 --> 00:33:16.680
mean, but it's a very good
bet, I guess. The other which

384
00:33:16.720 --> 00:33:22.920
brings up my thought of how viable
is it to collect the soil from underneath

385
00:33:22.960 --> 00:33:27.079
footprints or perhaps the soil on footprints
that you have to clean off later,

386
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:32.240
like from the cast. How viable
a collection strategy would that be? Well,

387
00:33:32.319 --> 00:33:37.519
I think it's that is a good, good and viable strategy, right,

388
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:43.240
And and you raised the excellent point, and that is this moving needle

389
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:45.839
in the haystack. You know,
like I said, it's going to be

390
00:33:45.880 --> 00:33:52.759
one of the rarest elements in any
environmental DNA sample that's taken. And with

391
00:33:52.839 --> 00:33:58.000
the hope with the caveat, you
know that that you know the assumption that

392
00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:02.960
there is some sasquat contribution, and
you're right, the nests we think based

393
00:34:04.000 --> 00:34:09.079
on the circumstantial evidence and and and
some of the associative evidence that they were

394
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:15.559
made by sasquatch, but we don't
know for certain, And so not finding

395
00:34:15.599 --> 00:34:22.639
sasquatch DNA in that doesn't rule out
the existence of sasquatch, but it just

396
00:34:22.800 --> 00:34:30.880
it may cast out on them as
being the source of these nests. But

397
00:34:30.960 --> 00:34:37.599
yes, collecting samples from under footprints
is another way to up the odds.

398
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:44.559
You know, I don't have a
good sense of how much tissue or a

399
00:34:44.719 --> 00:34:49.400
trace is shed with each foot step. You know, I know that there

400
00:34:49.440 --> 00:34:57.079
certainly there's abrasion, and there's oils
and secretions and so forth that are potentially

401
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.000
could transfer to the soil surface.
And you know, I always have this

402
00:35:00.119 --> 00:35:07.559
vision of any any animal walking along
and having its appendages literally just kind of

403
00:35:07.960 --> 00:35:12.639
melting away into the soil as it
leaves all of its its DNA and cellular

404
00:35:12.679 --> 00:35:15.800
structure left behind in each footprint.
In other words, you know, there

405
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:21.559
can't be a lot of material that's
shed left behind. Otherwise we would just

406
00:35:21.639 --> 00:35:27.440
kind of whiddle away, wouldn't we
disappear? So it's going to be a

407
00:35:27.480 --> 00:35:31.840
real trace. And although you know
they're there, there certainly is precedent and

408
00:35:31.880 --> 00:35:37.159
there was that example. I was
looking for it actually in between watching episodes

409
00:35:37.199 --> 00:35:40.360
of Finding Big. But I was
trying to find that episode where the researcher

410
00:35:40.760 --> 00:35:46.039
collected the or the documentary not the
episode the documentary where the researcher collected the

411
00:35:46.079 --> 00:35:54.159
snow under the Yetti footprint and identified
some DNA from that sample. And I

412
00:35:54.159 --> 00:36:00.119
have been able to find that.
I did find the episode with Mark Evans

413
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:07.119
and the samples from Bhutan that turned
out to be bear And you know,

414
00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:12.159
I've identified that researcher, but did
the DNA on that. I'm always my

415
00:36:12.559 --> 00:36:17.760
my know, my ears always prick
up when I see a researcher who's willing

416
00:36:19.599 --> 00:36:25.679
to, under the right circumstances,
to apply their skills to questions like this

417
00:36:25.880 --> 00:36:32.800
without without fear of ridicule. The
retribution. Jeff, if you get someone,

418
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:37.760
say half a million dollars, and
you're talking about one thousand windows like

419
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:40.800
the advent calendar, like with a
thousand slots, how many windows would you

420
00:36:40.800 --> 00:36:44.920
be able to open with Like I
say, you gave half million dollars in

421
00:36:44.960 --> 00:36:49.480
these geneticis Well, according to doctor
Gamble, that's that's what he'd need to

422
00:36:49.519 --> 00:36:54.840
conduct thousand well staffed, Yeah,
to open all thousand, Yeah, to

423
00:36:54.840 --> 00:37:00.480
conduct a well staffed study that would
allow him to examine. And I would

424
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:06.000
assume, you know, in the
conversations I've had with him, I'm assuming

425
00:37:06.039 --> 00:37:13.679
that that that's his intent is to
do as much sequencing as is necessary.

426
00:37:13.840 --> 00:37:16.360
But you wouldn't know it's to damage
sample or not get no sample until he

427
00:37:17.000 --> 00:37:20.639
got so far into it, right, So you could burn up a bunch

428
00:37:20.679 --> 00:37:24.440
of your capital, Yeah, you
could, and then may have to drop

429
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:30.440
back ten yards and hunt and gather
some additional samples and turn your attention to

430
00:37:30.480 --> 00:37:37.519
those. I mean, I'm sure
he would that his research design would not

431
00:37:37.800 --> 00:37:43.559
be focused on a single sample.
I'm sure it would involve the collection of

432
00:37:44.000 --> 00:37:46.920
mini samples. I mean, just
like they did with Locke Nest. They

433
00:37:47.159 --> 00:37:54.880
filtered water from probably hundreds, if
not thousands of locations at various depths in

434
00:37:54.920 --> 00:38:01.320
the lake in order to make a
very thorough survey of the of the water

435
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.880
in the lake. So it wasn't
just you know, one sample, one

436
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:14.199
one test tube that many many times
repeated. Didn't you guys get didn't you

437
00:38:14.199 --> 00:38:16.559
you thought your best bet was some
like real remote mountain lake and the rockies

438
00:38:16.639 --> 00:38:21.079
like. I don't know if it
was a John Manchinski that got it or

439
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.320
somebody I thought you thought your best
chance for these samples you got some Mason

440
00:38:23.400 --> 00:38:27.559
jars or something from up and up
high ward. No one goes was that

441
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.000
it? Well, no, we
hadn't to talk much beyond. I mean,

442
00:38:31.039 --> 00:38:37.280
I think the study would would do
well to start with things like the

443
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:39.599
nests that have been found in the
Olympic project, you know, and if

444
00:38:39.920 --> 00:38:44.480
if another set of very fresh nests
could be found, I think that would

445
00:38:44.519 --> 00:38:50.119
be an ideal place. Or as
you pointed out, if someone finds a

446
00:38:50.159 --> 00:38:53.280
set of footprints, then hey,
if we can be on that spot a

447
00:38:53.320 --> 00:38:57.320
S A P and you know,
before a lot of onlookers and so forth,

448
00:38:57.360 --> 00:39:04.159
and scoop up the soil from from
those footprints beneath those footprints and collect

449
00:39:04.199 --> 00:39:08.559
that, uh, then that would
be another ideal situation. I think.

450
00:39:09.039 --> 00:39:15.440
You know, some of the are
our previously tried methods like double sided tape,

451
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:19.800
you know, industrial strength double sided
tape, and the hair snags that

452
00:39:20.039 --> 00:39:25.920
John Minzinski designed and and other you
know there are, uh, there are

453
00:39:27.719 --> 00:39:32.599
tried and true if you will,
hair collecting techniques for wildlife studies and and

454
00:39:32.679 --> 00:39:38.719
those can be perhaps modified so as
to lessen the chance of interaction with common

455
00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:44.599
wildlife, and you know, choosing
the proper height or the proper types of

456
00:39:44.719 --> 00:39:52.119
baits or or whatever in order to
potentially engage a sasquatch preferentially over you know,

457
00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:58.159
over a bear, a porcupine,
or a marmot or something you mentioned

458
00:39:58.159 --> 00:40:01.280
earlier on the drag Atipithecus that was
published not too long ago, putting them

459
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:07.159
directly in liners at least closely related
to Shevapithecus and therefore orangtans later. And

460
00:40:07.239 --> 00:40:12.239
that was a study of the proteins, if I remember correctly, proteonics is

461
00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.960
that the right word? Since we
do have a small sampling or small set

462
00:40:16.000 --> 00:40:22.880
of hairs that have been attributed to
sasquatches or at least great apes collected in

463
00:40:22.920 --> 00:40:28.360
North America of some sort, could
that same technology of studying the proteins be

464
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:34.320
applied to the hair and get some
idea of the lineage there. Well,

465
00:40:34.320 --> 00:40:39.280
that's an interesting proposition I really hadn't
thought about. And if the keratin and

466
00:40:39.360 --> 00:40:45.039
the hair would lend itself to that
kind of analysis, and if there are

467
00:40:45.119 --> 00:40:54.840
sufficient distinctions in the structure of keratin
in hair between mammal species, that those

468
00:40:54.840 --> 00:40:59.480
differentiations could be made, and honestly, off the top of my head,

469
00:40:59.519 --> 00:41:06.480
I'm not sure sure. Another approach
with hair that has been discussed I've discussed

470
00:41:06.519 --> 00:41:12.920
with people who are involved in this
type of research is a stable isotope analysis,

471
00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:22.159
where stable isotopes of various molecules are
are deposited in the hair and produce

472
00:41:22.239 --> 00:41:31.039
a very distinctive signature based on the
particularly the diet of the organism growing that

473
00:41:31.199 --> 00:41:38.039
hair. And that while this is
not a precise science in the sense that,

474
00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:43.079
well, the science is precise,
but the identifications are not precise,

475
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:52.519
but that the correlations are not precise
and so and but baselines and generalizations can

476
00:41:52.559 --> 00:42:00.039
be made about various taxonomic groups based
on the signature of the stable isotopes,

477
00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:06.280
and those technologies are getting more and
more accessible. And so I've had people

478
00:42:06.280 --> 00:42:12.639
who do that kind of research who
have expressed interest in and willingness to maybe

479
00:42:12.760 --> 00:42:15.679
try their hand at that so we
could determine that, you know, these

480
00:42:15.840 --> 00:42:25.679
alleged sasquatch hairs have a have a
stable isotope signature that is quite distinct from

481
00:42:25.800 --> 00:42:32.599
humans in that region and from bears
and you know, the gross morphology of

482
00:42:32.639 --> 00:42:42.079
the hair is such that there aren't
very many potential candidates for producing that hair.

483
00:42:42.679 --> 00:42:45.480
I mean, when you have a
hair that's three to four inches long,

484
00:42:45.639 --> 00:42:52.280
four to five inches long, that
has all primate characteristics rather than the

485
00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:57.519
features of the long guard hair of
a mammal like a bear or an elk

486
00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:01.159
or a fox or coyote. You
know, there aren't many animals that mammals

487
00:43:01.159 --> 00:43:07.559
that would produce a hair of those
dimensions and those configurations. So you're only

488
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:15.239
you immediately, just by the process
of elimination on the basis of the morphology,

489
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:19.760
narrow it down to just three or
four candidates in my mind, in

490
00:43:19.880 --> 00:43:22.440
my book. You know, there's
some people say, oh, you've got

491
00:43:22.480 --> 00:43:24.119
to test, You've got to make
sure, you know, but I mean,

492
00:43:24.199 --> 00:43:28.719
you know, we can rule out
all the little tiny rodents that have

493
00:43:28.800 --> 00:43:34.199
hair that's only a quarter of an
inch long and much finer than any hair

494
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:38.000
from a potential sasquatch. Do you
have many legitimate hairstyles like that are past

495
00:43:38.119 --> 00:43:42.679
mustered as far as you know,
without genetics, But how many? I

496
00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:45.199
mean, I imagine there's way more
foot casts. I mean, it's got

497
00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:49.719
to be a factor in twenty to
one. How many how many hair how

498
00:43:49.719 --> 00:43:52.440
many hairstyles are you aware of that
you think are legitimate? You know,

499
00:43:52.480 --> 00:43:57.480
I don't have a precise count for
you, But before doctor Fahrenbach retired,

500
00:43:58.280 --> 00:44:04.039
he felt like he had somewhere between
a dozen and two dozen samples that in

501
00:44:04.079 --> 00:44:09.400
his book met the quote gold standard
which he arrived at, and that was

502
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.719
basically, you know, they look
like human, they have parallel sides,

503
00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:20.880
they're about sixty five microns in diameter, they lack a cellular medulla, they

504
00:44:20.960 --> 00:44:25.239
have a wear pattern, there's no
taper to the tip. They have some

505
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:34.599
very distinctive combination of pigment granules and
lozenges. They show a range of variation

506
00:44:34.800 --> 00:44:39.320
between proportions of view melanin and fale
milanin. So you get all the color

507
00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:49.639
phases from almost white through beige and
buckskin to reddish brown and then dark brown

508
00:44:49.679 --> 00:44:55.639
and black almost mahogany black with a
reddish hint to it. So, yeah,

509
00:44:55.800 --> 00:45:01.519
somewhere between twelve and twenty four in
that rain, and I've identified additional

510
00:45:01.559 --> 00:45:07.760
ones that when we really had to
push back, when doctor Sykes had his

511
00:45:07.880 --> 00:45:15.079
study underway and we were screening hairs, to potentially include in his study.

512
00:45:15.440 --> 00:45:19.360
So you have the resources and the
knowledge now to definitively say gold standard if

513
00:45:20.079 --> 00:45:23.880
you have enough to judge yourself now
without going to someone else with your resources

514
00:45:24.000 --> 00:45:27.719
with someone give you a hair sample, right, Oh yeah, yeah,

515
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:30.000
and I've done that. You know, a couple have fallen through the cracks

516
00:45:30.000 --> 00:45:34.519
of trying to find you know,
a misplaced sample here or there. But

517
00:45:34.840 --> 00:45:39.400
yes, I've been receiving quite a
number of samples, and of course not

518
00:45:39.559 --> 00:45:45.840
all of them actually, you know, it runs about one in ten are

519
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:51.960
of interest and one in ten match
the gold standard. So I wouldn't say

520
00:45:52.000 --> 00:45:54.440
definitively it's always a it's a bit
of an art form. I mean,

521
00:45:54.440 --> 00:46:00.239
it's still anatomy and you put them
under the microscope and there are features,

522
00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:08.440
but there's but the art, the
art and the skill comes into play because

523
00:46:08.480 --> 00:46:15.960
of the variation of the appearance of
hair on a single individual depending on where

524
00:46:15.000 --> 00:46:20.159
it's collected, you know, I
mean with a human their head hair or

525
00:46:20.199 --> 00:46:23.480
body hair, pubic hair, you
know, or eyelashes or eyebrows, and

526
00:46:23.519 --> 00:46:28.519
that's about it. But you know
on your dog, the hair on its

527
00:46:28.599 --> 00:46:31.159
back, the hair on its belly, that you know, all those they

528
00:46:31.159 --> 00:46:39.239
have different appearances and different pigmentation and
banding patterns and so forth, and and

529
00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:44.719
but you know, it's it's pretty
straightforward. If it's a fur bearing mammal,

530
00:46:45.840 --> 00:46:54.400
which again the candidates that are on
the proper scale to potentially be suspected

531
00:46:54.480 --> 00:47:00.880
or attributed to a sasquad, they
have fur, not just hair. And

532
00:47:00.920 --> 00:47:07.280
that distinction refers to the differentiation of
the outer guard hairs, the longer,

533
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:15.119
coarser hairs, which provide mechanical protection
basically that's their principal function, So they're

534
00:47:15.199 --> 00:47:22.840
longer, stiffer courser. The underfur
is the insulative layer. So those hairs

535
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:28.880
are very fine, the kind of
kinky sometimes to create that sort of pufft

536
00:47:30.519 --> 00:47:36.079
appearance rather than laying down flat.
And those are very very different. But

537
00:47:36.119 --> 00:47:40.280
when someone sends a sample of a
tuft of hair and it has both of

538
00:47:40.320 --> 00:47:49.199
those types of hair within it's fur, and we can immediately we can immediately

539
00:47:49.519 --> 00:47:53.000
eliminate it, or we can stick
another microscope and point out all the distinctions

540
00:47:53.039 --> 00:48:00.639
between the two types and from a
typical primate hair that yeah, but when

541
00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:06.559
you I mean, yeah, the
image is pretty distinctive. And when you've

542
00:48:06.559 --> 00:48:09.880
got a sample that matches the gold
standard and these things. That's what's crazy

543
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:15.440
about it. Is so compellingly crazy
about it, I guess, is that

544
00:48:15.800 --> 00:48:27.760
here are samples that are collected by
independent investigators that are from various geographical regions

545
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:31.639
across the map, and yet they
all look like they came off the same

546
00:48:31.760 --> 00:48:37.280
critter. They all have the exact
same morphology. And that's really quite compelling.

547
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.679
I mean, that's what kind of
set us down this road. When

548
00:48:39.679 --> 00:48:45.239
I first met and conferred with doctor
Fahrenbach, we both were kind of puzzling

549
00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:51.719
over this situation with the hair,
and there were various reports that had been

550
00:48:51.760 --> 00:48:59.320
disseminated. Invariably, the reliable reports
came back as indeterminate for those samples that

551
00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:06.159
held potential of being sasquatch hair.
And that was really the only justifiable conclusion

552
00:49:06.159 --> 00:49:09.440
that could be arrived at, because
the way you identify hair is to compare

553
00:49:09.480 --> 00:49:14.719
it to a known standard. Well, if there is no known standard for

554
00:49:14.880 --> 00:49:19.639
sasquatch, then what you end up
with this enigmatic hair. It doesn't match

555
00:49:19.679 --> 00:49:22.159
anything else, but you have no
standard to match it to, so it's

556
00:49:22.199 --> 00:49:28.599
indeterminate. Well, we thought,
if these hairs, if there is a

557
00:49:28.760 --> 00:49:36.079
population of hairs out there, a
sample of hairs that all defy attribution to

558
00:49:36.159 --> 00:49:43.480
any commonly known wildlife out there,
there must be some common denominators that discriminated

559
00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.199
that set it apart. So we
started backtracking. We actually contacted some of

560
00:49:47.199 --> 00:49:52.119
the sources of these reports and asked
for more detailed descriptions of their samples.

561
00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:57.000
Low and behold, there were you
know, they had these same characteristics that

562
00:49:57.000 --> 00:50:01.960
I already rattled off, and across
the board. They consistently all these indeterminate

563
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:09.280
hairs which if they were sasquatched,
they're conceivably coming from one species and therefore

564
00:50:09.639 --> 00:50:15.519
should show a consistently distinctive suite of
characters. And sure enough they did,

565
00:50:16.039 --> 00:50:20.360
and that sort of became the gold
standard, as Hannah referred to it,

566
00:50:20.480 --> 00:50:24.800
So everything else he would find,
you know, that became our default standard,

567
00:50:24.880 --> 00:50:29.920
even though we didn't have, you
know, claims to the contrary,

568
00:50:29.960 --> 00:50:37.360
any examples of hairs physically pulled out
of a sasquatch and unidentified as such with

569
00:50:37.400 --> 00:50:42.280
which to compare it. So I'm
pretty confident, I mean no hair,

570
00:50:43.159 --> 00:50:46.760
Like I said, anatomy is anatomy, and we have hairs that defy attribution

571
00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:52.239
to any form of wildlife. How
can ignore that? I don't understand if

572
00:50:52.280 --> 00:50:58.880
something like other hair like hair specialists, zoologists, whatever, if you show

573
00:50:58.960 --> 00:51:02.679
them this, what, how do
they just dismiss it? Well, it

574
00:51:02.719 --> 00:51:07.119
boils down to the fact that,
and this is why Hender was always a

575
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:10.719
little bit reluctant to go out on
the limb and publish, try to get

576
00:51:10.719 --> 00:51:16.719
this published in a mainstream journal,
was that these primate characteristics are also displayed

577
00:51:16.719 --> 00:51:22.920
by humans to varying degrees. I
mean some of them consistently. The sasquatch

578
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:30.320
hair is about the same coarseness as
average human head hair. Now, obviously

579
00:51:30.400 --> 00:51:34.599
there's variation there. You know,
some people have very stick, stiff,

580
00:51:35.079 --> 00:51:39.760
wooly hair, coarse hair, some
have very fine hair. Some humans even

581
00:51:40.320 --> 00:51:46.519
have an acellular medula. Usually it's
it's individuals that are kind of toehead that

582
00:51:46.519 --> 00:51:53.519
are very pale blonde and have very
fine hair because that central core, that

583
00:51:53.599 --> 00:52:02.199
modula lends some further rigidity to the
hair shaft. And so the one could

584
00:52:02.239 --> 00:52:07.239
always fall back and say, well, it's a more parsimonious conclusion to arrive

585
00:52:07.320 --> 00:52:13.800
at that these are just misidentified human
hairs, even though they've never been cut.

586
00:52:14.320 --> 00:52:16.239
They show no evidence of having been
cut. You know, they're grown

587
00:52:16.320 --> 00:52:22.960
to length essentially with a worn blunt
tip, and and and they displayed some

588
00:52:23.159 --> 00:52:29.360
distinctive features of the of the follicle, but we didn't. We don't only

589
00:52:29.440 --> 00:52:35.320
rarely have an active follicle that would
display those. So so it boils back

590
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:39.480
down to the way. The final
arbiter that one would rely on then is

591
00:52:39.519 --> 00:52:49.599
what DNA to make the final conclusive
determination. And and that one factor of

592
00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:57.800
the acellular medula made it very problematic
to get DNA from the shaft. Stay

593
00:52:57.800 --> 00:53:00.880
tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with
Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back

594
00:53:00.920 --> 00:53:10.280
after these messages. Well, you
know, there's another avenue that I don't

595
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:15.280
think has been explored that I think
shows a lot of promise. And it

596
00:53:15.320 --> 00:53:19.119
wasn't my idea of any means.
A gentleman came into the museum here and

597
00:53:19.639 --> 00:53:24.039
he's a veterinarian, and he said, this has been tried, and it

598
00:53:24.199 --> 00:53:30.199
turns out it works. I'm studying
the parasites in an area. You can

599
00:53:30.239 --> 00:53:32.280
kind of it sounds like e DNA, but you gather a bunch of ticks

600
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:36.639
or something, and then you test
them somehow, and you can tell what

601
00:53:36.639 --> 00:53:39.559
they've been feeding on. Has anything
like that ever been tried to your knowledge,

602
00:53:39.719 --> 00:53:43.159
Oh, sure, there have been
been studies, and in fact,

603
00:53:43.280 --> 00:53:46.639
that's one element we hope to incorporate. So I'm glad you brought that up

604
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:57.119
into our EDNA study. Is the
mass collection of of the mosquitoes in regions

605
00:53:57.159 --> 00:54:02.400
where there's bigfoot activity or reports.
You know, it's again it's it's a

606
00:54:02.440 --> 00:54:06.599
shot in the dark given the rarity. I mean, what are the odds

607
00:54:07.000 --> 00:54:15.360
that you catch the a dozen or
so mosquitoes that have bitten the few sasquatch

608
00:54:15.400 --> 00:54:21.000
they're in that geographical area. But
that's that's a way to do it,

609
00:54:21.039 --> 00:54:24.199
and there are methodologies that have been
developed. You know, you put dry

610
00:54:24.239 --> 00:54:29.880
ice in the trap and it attracts
the mosquitos and they're caught in the trap,

611
00:54:29.920 --> 00:54:37.480
and then you just sample them in
total and mass and try to determine

612
00:54:37.480 --> 00:54:42.519
if there's any blood elements that can
be identified or DNA from those blood I

613
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:45.800
mean from that blood. So yeah, that's that's one way to do it.

614
00:54:45.840 --> 00:54:50.039
I think that would be more straightforward
than trying to find ticks. And

615
00:54:51.280 --> 00:54:53.440
yeah, and they want to go
get like stripped down, run naked through

616
00:54:53.480 --> 00:54:55.960
the brush. Yeah, like,
yeah, I have a feeling that's something

617
00:54:57.000 --> 00:54:59.480
that I'd be roped into. Come
on, Cliff, you like Bigfoot do

618
00:54:59.559 --> 00:55:04.320
this. I do it because because
the ticks don't feed. I mean,

619
00:55:04.320 --> 00:55:07.239
once they've fed. My understanding is
once they have that blood meal, then

620
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:12.280
they go off and they lay their
eggs basically and don't diet. Yeah,

621
00:55:12.280 --> 00:55:15.079
it's just like their annual plants or
something, right, right, And so

622
00:55:15.159 --> 00:55:17.719
I don't know what the chance I
mean. And you know, the mosquitoes

623
00:55:17.760 --> 00:55:22.280
are quite ephemeral as well, so
I don't it's uh, you know,

624
00:55:22.320 --> 00:55:29.440
you have to have your your sites
lined up pretty precisely in order to hit

625
00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:32.360
the bullseye. It's uh, it's
you know, just to contemplate it.

626
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:39.440
It's almost overwhelming to think about the
odds of success. But like I said

627
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:45.000
earlier, I think that's the direction
unless you want to just keep on doing

628
00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.639
the same old, same world.
And quite honestly, I'm getting to the

629
00:55:47.679 --> 00:55:53.079
point where I'm not going to physically
be able to do the kind of remote

630
00:55:53.159 --> 00:55:59.880
field research. And I've done so
much of it with you know limit.

631
00:56:00.480 --> 00:56:06.559
As much as I enjoy it with
limited results, I don't know that it's

632
00:56:06.599 --> 00:56:10.639
the best use of time and resources. Yeah, we should just cancel all

633
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:16.920
the Bigfoot conventions and gatherings and everyone
take a year off. Squatch. You

634
00:56:16.920 --> 00:56:21.320
can take all that money you spend
on gas and food and all that and

635
00:56:21.360 --> 00:56:22.679
throw it all a job pot.
We'd have enough money to get this DNA

636
00:56:22.719 --> 00:56:28.679
study done well. Yeah, and
certainly will appeal. I mean once I

637
00:56:29.559 --> 00:56:36.599
have some benefactors who have been very
generous in supporting other research initiatives. But

638
00:56:37.280 --> 00:56:42.280
yeah, I would like to see
sort of a grassroots participation by those who

639
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:49.639
are interested at some point. But
we'll wait until we get a very solid

640
00:56:50.199 --> 00:56:55.960
research design and commitments and so forth
underway. I'm hoping to do some smaller

641
00:56:55.960 --> 00:57:05.480
scale preliminary is this summer things of
you know that the timetable on vaccinations and

642
00:57:05.599 --> 00:57:09.079
travel restrictions and everything, I think
is moved up sufficiently to be able to

643
00:57:09.960 --> 00:57:15.320
do that, just to just to
go through the I mean, if nothing

644
00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:16.920
else, just to go through the
motions. But who knows. You may

645
00:57:16.960 --> 00:57:22.199
get lucky on the first sample or
two and something that produces something, but

646
00:57:22.719 --> 00:57:27.000
that would be great. Well,
then the other samples just go to reproducing

647
00:57:27.039 --> 00:57:30.360
that same thing, which is the
effect of science. Of course, that

648
00:57:30.679 --> 00:57:35.000
a lot of people overlook. You
know, I thought about bringing ladders out

649
00:57:35.000 --> 00:57:37.119
in the woods and got up and
checking bird nosh or you can find them

650
00:57:37.119 --> 00:57:40.639
pretty easy that way. You know, people don't realize how and this is

651
00:57:42.079 --> 00:57:47.239
one of the challenges that people don't
realize how persistent hair is in the environment.

652
00:57:47.360 --> 00:57:54.559
So there have been numerous cases where
a potentially credible, an authentic encounter

653
00:57:54.719 --> 00:58:01.880
or observation was made and then a
sample of was found nearby and it was

654
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:07.239
again connecting those dots or back to
the storytelling, and so it was taken

655
00:58:07.280 --> 00:58:12.440
in and analyzed. You know,
one that comes to mind because it actually

656
00:58:12.559 --> 00:58:16.199
resulted in a published paper, was
up in the Yukon when there was a

657
00:58:16.239 --> 00:58:22.360
sighting and then they found some tuft
of hair on a barbed wire fence I

658
00:58:22.360 --> 00:58:25.000
think it was, and took it
into the fishing game and they, to

659
00:58:25.119 --> 00:58:30.280
their credit, looked at it and
sent it into the lab and had it

660
00:58:30.320 --> 00:58:35.440
analyzed and it came back as muskox
or something like that, and of course

661
00:58:35.480 --> 00:58:39.000
then that got published. If it
had come back as an indeterminate primate,

662
00:58:39.159 --> 00:58:45.119
I can guarantee you it wouldn't have
been published. But the you know,

663
00:58:45.320 --> 00:58:50.320
it's kind of like in politics,
the bad news is always gets the headlines,

664
00:58:50.719 --> 00:58:54.960
and the good news that rarely rarely
gets mentioned. But see that's what's

665
00:58:54.960 --> 00:59:01.559
so unfortunate too about that situation then, is is it biases the perception with

666
00:59:01.800 --> 00:59:07.800
the negativity. In other words,
it's just like my My biggest criticism of

667
00:59:08.159 --> 00:59:15.599
doctor Syke's published study was that all
of his samples, you know, when

668
00:59:15.639 --> 00:59:20.920
I when I visited with him before
the project was underway, and I offered

669
00:59:21.079 --> 00:59:27.880
to help screen samples, to focus
his attention on those gold standard samples,

670
00:59:27.880 --> 00:59:30.639
I mean to really try, because
he thought he, you know, could

671
00:59:30.679 --> 00:59:38.800
overcome the challenge of the lack of
a cellular medula and glean some DNA from

672
00:59:38.840 --> 00:59:43.320
the shafts using his techniques. So
I was very eager, you know,

673
00:59:43.400 --> 00:59:45.599
to focus his attention because he was
limited in the resources. Again, he

674
00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:52.119
only had enough money to open ten
doors, you know, and but instead

675
00:59:52.239 --> 00:59:55.679
he insisted, oh no, no, we can't impose any preconceptions, you

676
00:59:55.719 --> 00:59:59.039
know, we have to we have
to look at everything. I said,

677
00:59:59.039 --> 01:00:00.440
well, you throw open the barn
doors, and I said, the whole

678
01:00:00.480 --> 01:00:05.480
barnyard is going to come in then, And that's what happened. But the

679
01:00:05.559 --> 01:00:12.800
thing that the real criticism was he
got DNA from every single sample. That's

680
01:00:13.079 --> 01:00:21.480
just not conceivable. That's just not
conceivable. And there were samples that were

681
01:00:21.519 --> 01:00:30.360
submitted that apparently were not acknowledged in
the study. So my fear is,

682
01:00:30.440 --> 01:00:34.159
and you know, I hate to
disparage or say something negative, but my

683
01:00:34.280 --> 01:00:39.639
concern was that there were samples that
didn't yield DNA that weren't mentioned, that

684
01:00:39.719 --> 01:00:45.719
weren't included in the final analysis.
Well, that that produces a very different

685
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:51.760
result if you publish a result that
every sample you receive turns out to be

686
01:00:51.880 --> 01:00:59.079
something else. Every single sample was
attributable to a commonly known form of wildlife.

687
01:00:59.760 --> 01:01:05.239
That's very different than if the result
was we had thirty samples and twenty

688
01:01:05.320 --> 01:01:09.800
four of them were attributable to other
forms of wildlife because I threw the barn

689
01:01:09.880 --> 01:01:15.159
door open. But there were these
six that we couldn't even get DNA from.

690
01:01:15.960 --> 01:01:20.719
And isn't it interesting those six also
looked very similar to the gold standard

691
01:01:20.760 --> 01:01:24.199
doctor Mildrim has described repeatedly. Now, wouldn't that be a different result than

692
01:01:24.239 --> 01:01:28.880
the first? Yeah? Much more
promising. Yeah, I mean that leaves

693
01:01:29.000 --> 01:01:32.559
your open that one of those samples
you have might actually have come or one

694
01:01:32.599 --> 01:01:37.599
of those six samples might have actually
come from a sasquad. Did you sub

695
01:01:37.639 --> 01:01:40.599
be the samples at sex examine that
you thought were good? Yes, that

696
01:01:40.679 --> 01:01:46.320
weren't collected by me personally, but
came through me, and they weren't They

697
01:01:46.360 --> 01:01:52.039
weren't acknowledged in the paper. So
I think you're talking theoretically, So that

698
01:01:52.199 --> 01:01:54.280
did happen? Oh no, I
was not talking theoretically. No. No.

699
01:01:54.480 --> 01:01:58.800
What I described is what happened and
what didn't happen. You know,

700
01:01:58.880 --> 01:02:02.440
what I described is what happen.
There were myself included. There were people

701
01:02:02.519 --> 01:02:07.920
who said, but I don't see
my sample. I sent him three samples

702
01:02:07.920 --> 01:02:09.800
and I don't see them mentioned here. You know, he may have gotten

703
01:02:10.000 --> 01:02:15.400
far more than he could possibly process
and test because, like I said,

704
01:02:15.400 --> 01:02:20.400
he was on a limited budget,
which is why I encouraged him to focus

705
01:02:20.480 --> 01:02:24.280
on those that had the most promise. You know, it's like I said,

706
01:02:24.320 --> 01:02:29.119
you can eliminate the fur bearing animals
right away. You know we know

707
01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:32.719
that. I mean, if sasquatch
exists, it is a primate. Anyone

708
01:02:32.760 --> 01:02:37.119
who can tests that just doesn't understand
biology or you know, it's just that's

709
01:02:37.360 --> 01:02:42.840
simple. I mean, we've got
to be able to say some things based

710
01:02:42.880 --> 01:02:47.800
on eyewitnessing counts, accounts, and
the anatomy of the foot, you know,

711
01:02:49.239 --> 01:02:55.800
unless some strange creature has emerged from
the ether that has a primate foot

712
01:02:55.880 --> 01:03:02.239
and a non primate physiology anatomy otherwise
anyway, So I mean we I think

713
01:03:02.280 --> 01:03:08.000
we're perfectly justified and safe in making
the assumption that if sasquatch exists, it

714
01:03:08.119 --> 01:03:15.039
is a large primate of some type, and so it will have hair that

715
01:03:15.480 --> 01:03:22.239
is most similar, more likely than
not, most similar to other large bodied

716
01:03:22.480 --> 01:03:29.639
horminoid primates. So and none of
them are fur bearing. Even the mountain

717
01:03:29.639 --> 01:03:34.559
gorilla that gets up into freezing temperatures
at times, it still has hair.

718
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:42.880
It's denser, it's much denser than
its sibling species down in the tropical lower

719
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:49.639
elevations, but it has hair,
and one type of hair. So yeah,

720
01:03:49.679 --> 01:03:55.360
now that that was a real frustrating, frustrating outcome and disappointing outcome of

721
01:03:55.400 --> 01:04:00.679
that of that whole enterprise. But
but no, that was real. I

722
01:04:00.760 --> 01:04:04.800
was not. I wasn't just theorizing, you know, what if scenario,

723
01:04:04.960 --> 01:04:13.679
that's what actually happened. It sounds
like the obtaining a piece of the sasquatch

724
01:04:13.719 --> 01:04:17.800
in some way. I mean,
obviously a type specimen would be the end

725
01:04:17.800 --> 01:04:21.559
all be all, but obtaining some
little piece of the bit of a sasquatch,

726
01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:26.280
whether it's DNA or hair or something, seems to be the direction that

727
01:04:26.800 --> 01:04:30.119
amateur researchers like myself should be focused
on. Would you agree with that?

728
01:04:30.719 --> 01:04:33.400
Right? Oh, definitely, yeah, if we could, you know,

729
01:04:33.519 --> 01:04:38.400
And and I've thought a lot about
that too, you know, in addressing

730
01:04:38.440 --> 01:04:42.800
the question of where's the bones,
you know, I end up with this

731
01:04:42.960 --> 01:04:48.519
kind of con not convoluted, but
a lengthy laundry list of factors involved in

732
01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:54.519
the disposition of remains once an animal
dies, you know, the science of

733
01:04:54.559 --> 01:05:00.639
taponomy. And so the question is
where would you find remains? You know,

734
01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:10.639
of the one point five million years
in which Giganopithecus had a tenure in

735
01:05:10.679 --> 01:05:16.199
Eastern Asia, where did we find
the the fossils in limestone caves? Right?

736
01:05:17.079 --> 01:05:24.800
And we only found those because porcupines
dragged them in there. So you

737
01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:30.079
know, for all that all that
time and all those dead Giganopithecus, we've

738
01:05:30.079 --> 01:05:33.119
got two jaws and a few thousand
isolated teeth, and only in those areas

739
01:05:33.159 --> 01:05:39.480
where porcupines live south of the Yellow
River in China. I've thought, I've

740
01:05:39.480 --> 01:05:42.599
often thought about that and thought,
well, gee, maybe, Well,

741
01:05:42.639 --> 01:05:45.400
first of all, sasquatch may have
only been in North America for a few

742
01:05:45.480 --> 01:05:50.000
hundreds of thousands of years, not
millions of years. Perhaps not. I

743
01:05:50.000 --> 01:05:51.920
mean, we don't know, we
have no way. Annoying, but I'm

744
01:05:53.000 --> 01:05:56.239
or even less really right less,
Yeah, of course, I mean tens

745
01:05:56.239 --> 01:06:00.920
of thousands of exactly exactly. It
could very well. So the chances of

746
01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:09.199
finding remains, fossilized remains are very
slim, really, But where would we

747
01:06:09.199 --> 01:06:14.639
find them? Probably in limestone caves. So I've often and I've asked.

748
01:06:14.679 --> 01:06:18.239
I talked to some cavers, and
there are some who mentioned, you know,

749
01:06:18.320 --> 01:06:24.679
finding bones of various mammals and so
forth in caves that they've explored.

750
01:06:25.280 --> 01:06:31.679
But to reach out to societies or
clubs, cavers clubs and see if anybody

751
01:06:31.719 --> 01:06:40.440
has any stories. You know,
there's kind of a cultish kind of secrecy

752
01:06:40.679 --> 01:06:45.199
about their favorite caves. They don't
want people, they don't want to manage,

753
01:06:45.239 --> 01:06:50.679
they don't want people disturbing them.
And so there's not a lot broadcast

754
01:06:50.800 --> 01:06:55.559
about the location of caves. But
if you could win over the confidence of

755
01:06:55.840 --> 01:07:01.079
some cavers. I have reached out
to some in the region here and nothing

756
01:07:01.119 --> 01:07:06.639
has come forward. No one has
any interesting experience to share of stumbling on

757
01:07:06.679 --> 01:07:14.039
a jar or a tooth or a
giant eyebone in a cave deposit. But

758
01:07:15.199 --> 01:07:17.679
that would be that would be the
place to look. I think, yeah,

759
01:07:17.760 --> 01:07:21.960
be ideal because whether people like it
or not, a dead one is

760
01:07:23.760 --> 01:07:28.639
the path to discovery, right of
course. And it's just again it's it's

761
01:07:28.679 --> 01:07:31.880
a rare commodity, that's the thing. You know. We've had conversations,

762
01:07:31.960 --> 01:07:38.079
I've talked on various settings about addressing
the question how many sasquats are out there,

763
01:07:38.119 --> 01:07:43.840
and anyway, without without going into
that, I don't think there are

764
01:07:43.960 --> 01:07:45.679
very many. You know, here
in the state of Idaho, there's a

765
01:07:45.679 --> 01:07:50.960
lot of wilderness area. We have
two thirds of the state is roadless wilderness

766
01:07:51.000 --> 01:07:56.960
area, and in the entire state
of Idaho, I would put the number

767
01:07:57.000 --> 01:08:02.559
somewhere between probably around three hundhundred compared
to the thirty five thousand black bear that

768
01:08:02.599 --> 01:08:06.920
live in Idaho. Black bear only
live to be about twenty years old before

769
01:08:06.920 --> 01:08:13.880
they die, and sasquatch may as
a large bodied eight may live you know,

770
01:08:13.920 --> 01:08:17.119
fifty years at least twice that of
Black Bear. Of those three hundred,

771
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:21.840
how many are in their golden years? So what would be the mortality

772
01:08:21.920 --> 01:08:27.880
rate of sasquatch on an annual basis
in just a state of Idaho? And

773
01:08:28.439 --> 01:08:33.960
then what are the odds that the
sasquatch that dies is somewhere where a backpacker

774
01:08:34.119 --> 01:08:40.039
a hiker, you know, in
these vast wilderness areas is going to find

775
01:08:40.079 --> 01:08:43.479
it. If it even is left
somewhere, then it might be found.

776
01:08:43.520 --> 01:08:46.279
As a large animal with no natural
predators, et cetera. You know,

777
01:08:46.319 --> 01:08:53.479
they secrete themselves off into some nook
or cranny, and even if they're exposed,

778
01:08:53.800 --> 01:09:00.479
they're going to quickly be deconstructed and
decomposed and parted off by the gnaars

779
01:09:00.479 --> 01:09:05.640
and the chewers and scavengers and and
pretty soon there just isn't anything left.

780
01:09:08.279 --> 01:09:12.439
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond
with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right

781
01:09:12.479 --> 01:09:21.079
back after these messages. You know, we have a display here in the

782
01:09:21.199 --> 01:09:25.760
in the museum on where the bones
are, and I was fortunate enough to

783
01:09:25.800 --> 01:09:30.840
get two photographs donated to the museum
to use in the display, and each

784
01:09:30.880 --> 01:09:34.680
of those photographs shows an elk eating
away at a bone, and even the

785
01:09:34.720 --> 01:09:39.239
seasoned hunters who come in here are
blown away by that those photographs. I

786
01:09:39.279 --> 01:09:42.319
had no idea. Yeah there's an
elk like there you go, and deer

787
01:09:42.399 --> 01:09:45.199
do it too, and yeah,
and of course squirrels and porcupines, and

788
01:09:45.239 --> 01:09:50.039
you know that those that have the
teeth ever growing in sizors, I mean,

789
01:09:50.079 --> 01:09:55.760
there's another motivation for them. But
calcium is at a real premium in

790
01:09:57.199 --> 01:10:03.359
spe particularly in what coniffers for environments, and so that the recycling of the

791
01:10:03.359 --> 01:10:09.239
skeleton is prompt and thorough. That's
like with the you know, with Gigantopithecus.

792
01:10:09.239 --> 01:10:13.399
The only remains we have are the
the fact that they have teeth with

793
01:10:13.680 --> 01:10:21.520
hyper thick enamel on these crowns and
these very heavy, heavy jaws that the

794
01:10:21.720 --> 01:10:26.920
thickest parts are not are those that
survived, and only two of them so

795
01:10:27.079 --> 01:10:30.880
far, I mean, we've only
discovered two, but it shows that a

796
01:10:31.039 --> 01:10:36.640
very few number of them of the
jaw elements have survived to be discovered in

797
01:10:36.680 --> 01:10:41.159
these caves, and there's been a
lot of harvesting in those caves. The

798
01:10:41.239 --> 01:10:45.520
people who you know, excavate that
limestone really go to town, and of

799
01:10:45.560 --> 01:10:51.199
course they find anything interesting, they
hold on to it for trade, for

800
01:10:51.880 --> 01:10:59.079
various purposes. Ye feed their family
mostly right. Krans mentioned in his recreation

801
01:10:59.119 --> 01:11:03.920
of the gigan Epithagus skull based on
the jaw that the jaws showed divergence that

802
01:11:04.039 --> 01:11:09.199
was really big. I think even
said maybe even unmatched at that point.

803
01:11:09.319 --> 01:11:13.000
Is that still true? Like,
do you think that that the divergence of

804
01:11:13.000 --> 01:11:19.960
the Gigano jaw does lean towards or
indicating by pedalism? You know, That's

805
01:11:20.119 --> 01:11:25.000
that came up in a conversation recently, and I thought then too that I

806
01:11:25.640 --> 01:11:30.079
really need to go back and look
very careful at his argument my understanding of

807
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:35.119
it, I mean you, you, Bipedalism has not, to my understanding,

808
01:11:35.880 --> 01:11:45.159
influenced the span, the absolute span
between the jaw joints, between the

809
01:11:45.159 --> 01:11:48.479
temporal men deep joints. But what
he was trying to draw attention to was

810
01:11:48.520 --> 01:11:55.760
the angle that was subtended by the
bodies of the jaw, and and that

811
01:11:55.800 --> 01:12:02.680
angle was more acute in say a
gorilla, but more obtuse, more open,

812
01:12:02.720 --> 01:12:09.880
in other words, in Gigantipithecus.
Therefore, that indicated that there was

813
01:12:10.319 --> 01:12:16.000
room for the neck in between the
bodies of the mandible. Now there there's

814
01:12:16.199 --> 01:12:20.159
I mean, the one weakness.
Well, let me point out first first,

815
01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:26.319
there's one little gap in my knowledge, and that is is And I

816
01:12:26.319 --> 01:12:30.000
could resolve this just by going over
here to the benchtop and measuring, but

817
01:12:30.119 --> 01:12:40.079
the absolute breadth of the cranial base
the distance between those two jaw joints versus

818
01:12:40.119 --> 01:12:45.239
that angle. Now the angle is
going to change simply because the face of

819
01:12:45.359 --> 01:12:49.279
Gigantipithecus was flatter. Probably we don't
know for certain because we don't have a

820
01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:57.079
skull. But if the megadontia,
if the hypertrophy of the teeth and the

821
01:12:57.119 --> 01:13:05.720
thick molar hyper thick molaring enamel is
convergent with the condition in the robust australopithecenes

822
01:13:05.840 --> 01:13:12.239
like paranthropists and Astrolopithecus robustus in South
Africa, then it stands to reason that

823
01:13:12.319 --> 01:13:18.199
Gigantipithecus was loading the posterior teeth and
had a flatter face. Now, the

824
01:13:18.239 --> 01:13:24.520
anterior teeth, it had shorter canines. They didn't have the huge projecting canines

825
01:13:24.520 --> 01:13:29.319
of a gorilla. Say, but
the incisors are kind of spatulate, they're

826
01:13:29.359 --> 01:13:34.840
kind of shoveled and you know,
the central incisors are large compared to the

827
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:42.039
lateral which is more like an orangutan
than say a chimper gorilla, but they're

828
01:13:42.079 --> 01:13:48.239
not greatly reduced in size as in
the robust astrolopithecenes, where they really emphasized

829
01:13:48.279 --> 01:13:54.640
the posterior enticition in combination with this
kind of dished out face, these jutting

830
01:13:54.840 --> 01:13:59.800
cheekbones and so forth. So the
point is the short version of that is,

831
01:14:00.159 --> 01:14:05.640
Gigantipithegus and robust Australopithesenes seemed to have
converged on diets that had similar mechanical

832
01:14:05.680 --> 01:14:13.680
properties that selected for these robust jaws
and thick enameled teeth, thick crowned teeth,

833
01:14:14.920 --> 01:14:17.600
but they did it in different ways. They clearly were not related in

834
01:14:17.600 --> 01:14:23.720
that respect, because again here's where
stable isotope analysis comes in. The stable

835
01:14:23.760 --> 01:14:27.359
isotope analysis of these two species show
that they had a very distinctive diet.

836
01:14:27.720 --> 01:14:31.479
The diets may had tough, hard
objects in common, but the nature of

837
01:14:31.520 --> 01:14:36.399
those food stuffs was quite distinctive.
Different habitat types and so forth, the

838
01:14:36.439 --> 01:14:43.079
different plant communities. So back now
circle way background. Sorry, I didn't

839
01:14:43.079 --> 01:14:46.039
need to go down that paths so
far. If you shorten the face,

840
01:14:46.800 --> 01:14:51.399
the angle between the two halves of
the jaws becomes more of tupes and gives

841
01:14:51.399 --> 01:14:59.079
the appearance of opening up for the
accommodation of a neck that comes out under

842
01:14:59.760 --> 01:15:04.039
on the head. Now one of
the distinctions, if we can rely for

843
01:15:04.079 --> 01:15:10.239
a minute on the PG film,
Patty has a forward lean of about five

844
01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:15.720
degrees, her trapezius attached on the
back of her skull, about halfway between

845
01:15:15.279 --> 01:15:20.560
the very high attachment and a gorilla
with a foram and magnum way behind the

846
01:15:20.560 --> 01:15:28.119
skull versus a human which is tucked
down underneath, and the muscles likewise are

847
01:15:28.239 --> 01:15:31.600
very small and tucked in underneath.
Head balances much more easily because of our

848
01:15:31.640 --> 01:15:39.199
smaller face and big globular brain case. If you look at robust Austrolopithecus,

849
01:15:39.720 --> 01:15:44.800
it's more towards the human condition by
far than the gorilla, but it still

850
01:15:44.840 --> 01:15:50.880
is not quite there. It doesn't
have that huge enlargement of the cranial cavity,

851
01:15:51.439 --> 01:15:56.520
and so the forame and magnum appears
to be a little bit further back,

852
01:15:57.680 --> 01:16:00.640
but not as far as in a
gorilla. Muscles are still quite substantial

853
01:16:01.520 --> 01:16:04.840
that attach on the base of its
skull, but don't attach nearly as high.

854
01:16:05.439 --> 01:16:12.880
Doesn't have that big flat plane of
muscle attachment, that nucleplane that's distinctive

855
01:16:12.920 --> 01:16:17.199
with the gorilla. So was so? In other words, back to your

856
01:16:17.199 --> 01:16:25.439
original question, was Grover's analogy was
his Was his theory about bipedal posture and

857
01:16:25.479 --> 01:16:31.760
gigantophithic is justified? Well, I
don't know if it really is in that

858
01:16:31.920 --> 01:16:40.920
sense. Now see I come at
it as a locomotive anatomist, and one

859
01:16:40.960 --> 01:16:48.359
of the reasons for bipedalism. One
of the mechanical factors in any theory about

860
01:16:48.520 --> 01:16:56.880
the evolution of bipedalism is that your
starting point is a large bodied hormonoid that

861
01:16:57.039 --> 01:17:02.399
has a pectoral girdle, the upper
limb bones that are rearranged in such a

862
01:17:02.399 --> 01:17:10.199
way that they're adapted for suspending from
supports, hanging under branches, and or

863
01:17:10.359 --> 01:17:14.960
climbing with the arms up overhead,
climbing up through branches or up tree trunks.

864
01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:21.640
Our chest is flatter, our shoulder
blade is back. Our glenoid the

865
01:17:21.680 --> 01:17:26.439
shoulder socket faces outward. If you
look at a grill or chimp, it

866
01:17:26.520 --> 01:17:30.159
faces slightly upward. The problem with
that arrangement is when you come to the

867
01:17:30.159 --> 01:17:35.119
ground and assuming a quadrupedal posture.
Now, the shoulder blade, if you

868
01:17:35.159 --> 01:17:41.520
can imagine, it's horizontal and the
humorous the armbone is vertical, so the

869
01:17:41.600 --> 01:17:46.880
shoulder meets at an angle, at
a ninety degree angle almost well, joints

870
01:17:46.880 --> 01:17:55.840
don't like that. That produces sheer
forces pushing one bone past another, and

871
01:17:55.920 --> 01:18:00.520
so all dedicated quadrupeds like your dog, look at where it's shoulder blade is.

872
01:18:00.600 --> 01:18:04.680
It's vertical on the side of a
of a narrowly compressed chest, and

873
01:18:04.720 --> 01:18:10.479
it's aligned with the shoulder or with
the armbone. So now that joint is

874
01:18:10.520 --> 01:18:16.439
experiencing compression. The bones are pressing
together, and they prefer that mechanically.

875
01:18:16.920 --> 01:18:19.800
Plus there's other you know, you
could we could bring in the elbow and

876
01:18:19.840 --> 01:18:23.600
the wrist. You know, a
lot of people have trouble. I mean,

877
01:18:23.640 --> 01:18:29.000
the reason the reason they sell these
these gadgets that have hand grips on

878
01:18:29.079 --> 01:18:32.039
a base to do push ups,
you know, on the floor, is

879
01:18:32.239 --> 01:18:35.439
because a lot of people if you
put your hands on the floor, it

880
01:18:35.560 --> 01:18:42.560
causes pain in your wrist because your
wrist is not designed to be flexed like

881
01:18:42.640 --> 01:18:45.960
that. And then have compressive force
applied through it. You know, when

882
01:18:45.960 --> 01:18:49.039
I do push ups, I do
them on the backs of my knuckles so

883
01:18:49.079 --> 01:18:53.880
that my wrist is lined up with
my forearm. And you try that,

884
01:18:53.960 --> 01:19:00.000
and it's much easier on your wrist. So the bottom line is any large,

885
01:19:00.039 --> 01:19:02.479
urge bodied eight that comes to the
ground is going to modify the way

886
01:19:02.520 --> 01:19:08.800
it moves around. Now, a
grade eight that has tremendously evolved in the

887
01:19:08.840 --> 01:19:12.920
direction of arm hanging, arm swinging
like a gorilla, so that its arms

888
01:19:12.920 --> 01:19:16.439
are almost twice as long as its
legs, it's already at this funny angle

889
01:19:16.479 --> 01:19:20.600
when it comes down. It's not
like a true quadruped, and weight is

890
01:19:20.680 --> 01:19:26.640
actually actively retracted back onto the hind
limbs. They carry more weight on their

891
01:19:26.960 --> 01:19:30.039
It doesn't look like it, but
they're actually If you haven't walked across a

892
01:19:30.119 --> 01:19:32.920
force plate, it shows their hind
limbs are supporting more weight than their fore

893
01:19:33.000 --> 01:19:40.000
limbs. They avoid the stresses on
their wrists by walking on their knuckles instead

894
01:19:40.039 --> 01:19:43.560
of on their fists or their palms, for the same reason you just mentioned

895
01:19:44.439 --> 01:19:49.560
knuckle pushups exactly. So if you
were a great big eight getting even bigger

896
01:19:49.560 --> 01:19:55.800
than a gorilla, like a Gigantopithecus. First of all, it's dangerous to

897
01:19:55.840 --> 01:19:58.800
be climbing up in trees. It's
just like the big male gorillas rarely go

898
01:19:58.960 --> 01:20:01.239
up. They do, we've discovered
for a long time they thought they didn't.

899
01:20:01.960 --> 01:20:06.079
But it's dangerous. If you fall, there's probably going to be a

900
01:20:06.159 --> 01:20:13.319
fatal experience, either either immediately or
as a result of the injuries occurred,

901
01:20:14.159 --> 01:20:16.439
and so you're going to spend more
time on the ground. In other words,

902
01:20:16.840 --> 01:20:20.039
if you're on the ground, there's
only two options open to you.

903
01:20:20.039 --> 01:20:26.479
You either walk on all fours or
you stand up like and bam they're at

904
01:20:26.479 --> 01:20:30.840
the London Zoo likes to do,
you know, in that way. So

905
01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:35.640
that's my argument. All of the
things I just discussed are going to be

906
01:20:35.800 --> 01:20:45.079
amplified with increasing body weight, and
so a gigant a proto proto sasquatch,

907
01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:50.000
is going to tend to walk upright
more when it's on the ground to avoid

908
01:20:50.039 --> 01:20:59.359
those stresses on its upper extremity,
and would probably be much better at it

909
01:20:59.399 --> 01:21:05.239
than even am Bam the gorilla.
Because evidence continues to mount that the Miocene

910
01:21:05.279 --> 01:21:14.680
apes had a pelvis that was much
less like the living great apes, especially

911
01:21:14.760 --> 01:21:18.479
the chimp and the gorilla, it
was much less like those and and so

912
01:21:18.720 --> 01:21:27.359
the the selection pressures to reshape that
into a more human like and and Patty

913
01:21:27.399 --> 01:21:30.239
doesn't have a fully human like pelts, and you can see them. You

914
01:21:30.239 --> 01:21:36.039
look at her back loin area she
has she has a dish shaped pelvis,

915
01:21:36.079 --> 01:21:41.760
but she's got a pretty tall ilium. It's not as shortened as it is

916
01:21:41.800 --> 01:21:45.960
in humans. And so, I
mean, there's there's indications of that.

917
01:21:46.279 --> 01:21:53.439
So there you go, there's there's
the short answer. Next time we have

918
01:21:53.439 --> 01:21:56.279
have you on, we'll just we'll
last for the long answer, and Bob

919
01:21:56.319 --> 01:22:00.520
and I will go get a drink. Which is really an issue though.

920
01:22:00.560 --> 01:22:03.439
See my point is is that,
I mean, you know, you ask

921
01:22:03.520 --> 01:22:09.359
a question like that, and in
a documentary, I could never give an

922
01:22:09.399 --> 01:22:15.079
answer like that. And yet and
yet the answer involves a lot of background

923
01:22:15.239 --> 01:22:23.079
contextual information to really understand what the
significance of it is. Yeah. Absolutely,

924
01:22:23.119 --> 01:22:27.840
you know, sasquatch isn't designed for
our sound bite culture unfortunately, and

925
01:22:27.880 --> 01:22:31.119
I think that's part of the reason
people think it's ridiculous. Still exactly exactly,

926
01:22:31.520 --> 01:22:35.279
and those that take the time to
educate themselves and really ask the question

927
01:22:35.359 --> 01:22:39.399
and listen to the answers and discuss
them. I mean, like when we

928
01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:45.279
were talking about the Patterson Gimblin film. I mean she shows that non human

929
01:22:45.000 --> 01:22:50.760
bipedal adaptations, as you what might
expect for something that has evolved, perhaps

930
01:22:50.800 --> 01:22:59.680
convergently, nature repeatedly produces similar results
through convergent evolution. There's a news item

931
01:22:59.760 --> 01:23:03.159
last month, if I'm interrupted very
briefly, that I think evolution has led

932
01:23:03.199 --> 01:23:08.880
to crabs I think five or six
times independently, you know, because because

933
01:23:08.920 --> 01:23:13.920
crabs happen to be. The shape
and function and niche of a crab happens

934
01:23:13.960 --> 01:23:16.520
to be what things gravitate towards.
Sure, yeah, yeah, arthropod,

935
01:23:16.800 --> 01:23:23.640
you know, exoskeleton adaptation or strategy. Definitely, it's I mean, it's

936
01:23:23.640 --> 01:23:27.760
always been a fast because to me
it's such a testament of evolution. I

937
01:23:27.800 --> 01:23:31.159
when I when I deal with students
who are reluctant to at least entertain the

938
01:23:31.199 --> 01:23:38.039
notion that the life you know,
evolved through discent with modification, you know,

939
01:23:38.079 --> 01:23:42.920
I throw out just example after example
after example of convergent evolution, like

940
01:23:43.039 --> 01:23:47.600
the classic one with all the marsupial
mammals in Australia and the placental mammals of

941
01:23:47.600 --> 01:23:53.399
of the ne Arctic, and you
have you know these convergent well they fill

942
01:23:53.720 --> 01:24:00.800
each niche in remarkably similar ways,
but they they both started for very different

943
01:24:00.039 --> 01:24:05.760
starting points of these little rat like
creatures, you know, that radiated out

944
01:24:05.800 --> 01:24:12.000
to fill all these niches, and
so so bipedalism could have evolved independently in

945
01:24:12.119 --> 01:24:16.319
a large bodied eight in Asia,
in parallel to the australopith scenes that are

946
01:24:16.319 --> 01:24:23.600
already epithosenes. I mean, there's
already now evolution of multiple examples of bipedal

947
01:24:23.800 --> 01:24:30.800
like behaviors in various Miocene primates from
Oreopithecus. The latest was this D.

948
01:24:30.880 --> 01:24:40.319
Nuvius was a very interesting about a
anobo sized ape that had elongated lower limbs

949
01:24:40.319 --> 01:24:45.359
and a pelvis that was more human
like than chimpanzee like. And it so

950
01:24:45.600 --> 01:24:50.119
it shows that that the change from
that to us. You know, people

951
01:24:50.159 --> 01:24:59.119
always, even academics sometimes tried to
connect the dots between extant chimpanzees and modern

952
01:24:59.199 --> 01:25:02.840
humans and that evolution was intermediate between
that. Well that's not the case.

953
01:25:03.760 --> 01:25:10.399
Evolution started for both those species started
from a starting point a creature that had

954
01:25:10.479 --> 01:25:15.520
some features that were much more chimpanzee
like, but others as particularly the pelvis

955
01:25:15.560 --> 01:25:21.399
and other things that were much less
derived than the modern chimpanzees. And you

956
01:25:21.399 --> 01:25:28.560
know, if there was a hominoid
species in Asia that especially if it began

957
01:25:28.680 --> 01:25:32.880
to or was isolated in a more
temperate climate where resources were on the ground

958
01:25:33.359 --> 01:25:36.319
rather than up in the trees,
and it was utilizing fish, say,

959
01:25:36.399 --> 01:25:45.199
and as a protein source, and
carbohydrates were coming from the understory, and

960
01:25:45.239 --> 01:25:47.880
it's I mean, you can,
yeah, there's all sorts of interesting,

961
01:25:48.079 --> 01:25:56.800
compelling scenarios that could account for this
in very rational, reasonable ways. But

962
01:25:57.159 --> 01:26:00.159
anyway, I'm starting to ramble.
Yeah, well you say ramble, but

963
01:26:00.239 --> 01:26:03.479
I think I know I can speak
for myself. I'm eating it up and

964
01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:06.359
I'm sure a lot of our audiences
as well, because I don't think that

965
01:26:06.439 --> 01:26:10.279
you get because we do live in
a sound bite culture and people do go

966
01:26:10.359 --> 01:26:13.920
to I mean, Finding Bigfoot is
an entertaining show. We did legitimate Bigfoot

967
01:26:13.920 --> 01:26:16.760
stuff to the best of our ability. New stuff was brought up and stuff,

968
01:26:16.760 --> 01:26:19.600
but at the same time, it's
TV, you know, and we

969
01:26:19.800 --> 01:26:25.279
Bobo and I and Bobo will grumble
about it much longer length than I would

970
01:26:26.399 --> 01:26:30.680
the stuff they cut out was great
as well. And you can't get the

971
01:26:30.760 --> 01:26:35.000
quick, easy answer you and so
you say rambling, but I personally appreciate

972
01:26:35.039 --> 01:26:39.000
it. People come into the shop
and say, well, what would be

973
01:26:39.039 --> 01:26:42.520
the one piece of evidence? When
they say, this just doesn't work like

974
01:26:42.560 --> 01:26:45.039
that, man, it's how everything
fits together. And then I give them

975
01:26:45.079 --> 01:26:50.439
an eight minute like what. I
start rambling for eight minutes and they eventually

976
01:26:50.520 --> 01:26:53.920
get it and kind of get the
idea. It's like, this isn't something

977
01:26:53.920 --> 01:26:56.840
that you just stick your toe in. You get it right away. I'm

978
01:26:56.880 --> 01:27:00.720
just getting warmed up. At eight
minutes exactly. I'm starting to massage my

979
01:27:00.800 --> 01:27:05.520
jaws and getting into it right.
But you know, Cliff, one of

980
01:27:05.560 --> 01:27:10.359
my favorite stories to tell is when
you were here after before you went off

981
01:27:10.399 --> 01:27:15.359
on your solo, and after that
little brief visit to my lab by the

982
01:27:15.439 --> 01:27:19.239
cast and then you went to rifling, you know, turned you loose in

983
01:27:19.279 --> 01:27:25.560
the lab and you called me out
when you had the two footprints side by

984
01:27:25.600 --> 01:27:28.880
side, one cast by Paul Freeman
and one by West Summerlin, and we

985
01:27:28.960 --> 01:27:31.800
began to discuss. You posed the
question are these the same individuals? And

986
01:27:32.000 --> 01:27:38.159
we started talking. I was making
comments about how negatives. Things had been

987
01:27:38.199 --> 01:27:43.720
said about distinctions in toe rows,
angle and stuff like that, and how

988
01:27:43.720 --> 01:27:45.479
this one looks like it has an
arch, And then you know, it

989
01:27:45.520 --> 01:27:49.159
was you asking the question of me
that put me, you know, put

990
01:27:49.159 --> 01:27:55.319
my feet to the fire and made
the penny drop. And when we laid

991
01:27:55.319 --> 01:27:59.560
that, one cast over the other, lining up the toes which matched perfectly,

992
01:28:00.079 --> 01:28:04.920
and in so doing the edge of
the forefoot was still perfectly in alignment.

993
01:28:05.119 --> 01:28:10.079
It was simply the angle of the
heel segment that differed between the two.

994
01:28:10.920 --> 01:28:15.960
And illustrate it beautifully, the action
of pronation and supernation, which is

995
01:28:16.000 --> 01:28:20.279
expressed to a bit greater degree in
the sasquatch foot than the human because of

996
01:28:20.319 --> 01:28:24.960
the greater mobility of the transverse tarsal
joint. And I'm sitting here, you

997
01:28:25.000 --> 01:28:29.199
know, you talked about a smoking
gun if one person, if person pressed

998
01:28:29.199 --> 01:28:32.039
you for one example, I mean, that's one that I would throw out

999
01:28:32.039 --> 01:28:38.560
there, because boom. You know, no way that a hoaxer is going

1000
01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:45.680
to incorporate the subtleties of detail that
clearly demonstrate to someone like you or I

1001
01:28:45.720 --> 01:28:51.800
who have spent a lot of time
looking at footprints to recognize the commonalities between

1002
01:28:51.800 --> 01:28:59.800
the two that distinctive distal pad on
that gigantic big toe and the distinctive angle

1003
01:28:59.840 --> 01:29:03.319
of the little toe flaring out to
the side. But then to recognize or

1004
01:29:03.359 --> 01:29:13.960
to be able to incorporate appropriately the
signature of a superinated versus a pronated foot,

1005
01:29:14.279 --> 01:29:17.159
a very flat foot versus one that's
arched up a little bit, and

1006
01:29:17.199 --> 01:29:25.600
the expression of that angle of the
heel inflecting at exactly the proportional point of

1007
01:29:25.720 --> 01:29:31.000
the mid tarsal joints, as as
Renee to Hindon would say, it boggles

1008
01:29:31.079 --> 01:29:36.199
the mind to even think to even
think that that could happen, you know.

1009
01:29:36.279 --> 01:29:41.439
And then you add other things like
going to China and seeing these footprints

1010
01:29:41.439 --> 01:29:46.840
with a transverse tarsal pressure mid tarsal
pressure ridge that was exactly like the Patterson

1011
01:29:46.880 --> 01:29:53.680
Gimblin film side, you know.
And then and then finally turning all the

1012
01:29:53.800 --> 01:29:57.760
tip miss casts on their side so
you could see they did almost all have

1013
01:29:57.840 --> 01:30:03.560
a pressure ridge expressed to one or
another. And the variation in length that

1014
01:30:03.680 --> 01:30:11.800
Grover tried to kind of rationalize was
simply variation in the depth of imprint of

1015
01:30:11.840 --> 01:30:16.439
the heel that the forefoot from the
pressure ridge indicator to the toe tips was

1016
01:30:16.720 --> 01:30:20.880
identical in every single footprint, you
know. I mean just things like that

1017
01:30:20.880 --> 01:30:28.199
that are so subtle and yet so
profound in their implication. Yeah, they

1018
01:30:28.239 --> 01:30:31.720
are the best evidence that these things
are real. Absolutely, But people want

1019
01:30:31.760 --> 01:30:33.880
me to say, oh, it's
the Patterson Gimlin film, look at it,

1020
01:30:33.880 --> 01:30:36.680
it's real, or the foot look
at this one footprint. You can't.

1021
01:30:36.800 --> 01:30:40.640
I mean, it's like looking at
one piece of a jigsaw puzzle and

1022
01:30:40.680 --> 01:30:43.960
saying those kittens playing in the art
are very cute. Well, exactly,

1023
01:30:44.039 --> 01:30:46.760
and they fit together like a jigsaw
puzzle. That's what's interesting is it's so

1024
01:30:47.000 --> 01:30:53.720
interconnected, you know. So you
can trace some of these these anatomies through

1025
01:30:53.760 --> 01:30:57.439
the Patterson Gimblin film, through this
footprint example, through another one over here,

1026
01:30:57.600 --> 01:31:00.840
and then oh, here's a pathology. Here's the Osburg cripplefoot you know,

1027
01:31:00.960 --> 01:31:06.279
which has a cloud of of of
suspicion hanging over it because of ivan

1028
01:31:06.359 --> 01:31:10.079
marks, et cetera, et cetera. But yet I can sit with a

1029
01:31:10.159 --> 01:31:14.760
room full of pediatrists and orthopedists and
talk shop with them, and they're all

1030
01:31:14.800 --> 01:31:18.760
fascinated by it and absolutely comfortable with
the anatomy and the and the pathology,

1031
01:31:19.239 --> 01:31:24.039
even more subtly, the pathology that
they're observing. You know, it's just

1032
01:31:25.119 --> 01:31:29.079
one thing after another, and they're
and they're all linked together in this cohesive,

1033
01:31:29.800 --> 01:31:36.399
coherent theory of explanation, of explanation. It's just ah, yeah,

1034
01:31:36.439 --> 01:31:41.800
it's it's it's amazing. It gets
me charged up to you. Wish you

1035
01:31:41.840 --> 01:31:45.039
could convey, you know, distill
this down into a little pill that someone

1036
01:31:45.039 --> 01:31:49.840
could take and suddenly comprehend everything that
you've gleaned over, you know, three

1037
01:31:49.920 --> 01:31:56.880
decades of preoccupation with this topic.
Yeah, it's not so simple. Unfortunately.

1038
01:31:57.520 --> 01:31:59.239
Well, well, Jeff, we've
said, Bob, are you still

1039
01:31:59.239 --> 01:32:03.239
there? By the way, maybe
maybe fell asleep. I'm most likely technological

1040
01:32:03.239 --> 01:32:06.960
problems. He is somewhere in He
cut out a couple of times. So

1041
01:32:08.560 --> 01:32:13.319
yeah, well Jeff, it looks
like Bobo's still on the call, but

1042
01:32:13.359 --> 01:32:15.319
for some reason we're not reading his
audio right now. So I'm going to

1043
01:32:15.359 --> 01:32:20.399
take this opportunity and just to thank
you on behalf of Bobo and myself for

1044
01:32:20.520 --> 01:32:24.600
coming on and spending so much time
with us. Really do appreciate it.

1045
01:32:24.600 --> 01:32:28.800
It's always enlightening. I love conversations
with you because I was I'm a learner.

1046
01:32:28.840 --> 01:32:30.039
You know. I was a teacher
for a living, which means I'm

1047
01:32:30.039 --> 01:32:33.039
a learner basically, and I just
love to learn stuff. And there's I

1048
01:32:33.039 --> 01:32:36.680
can't think of one conversation we've ever
had right and walk away knowing a bit

1049
01:32:36.680 --> 01:32:40.800
more than before. So thank you
so much. Oh it's been my pleasure.

1050
01:32:40.800 --> 01:32:44.920
It's always stimulating, reciprocally stimulating.
Well, all right, Jeff,

1051
01:32:44.960 --> 01:32:47.199
thank you so much again. And
I'm sorry everybody out there can't hear Bobo,

1052
01:32:47.239 --> 01:32:50.359
but so I'll just do this.
Hey, Boba, that was great,

1053
01:32:50.439 --> 01:32:54.079
right, yeah, dude, it
really was. All right, cool,

1054
01:32:54.720 --> 01:32:58.279
take us home, bobes, all
right, everybody, keep it Squatchy.

1055
01:33:01.560 --> 01:33:05.479
Thanks for listening to this week's episode
of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you

1056
01:33:05.560 --> 01:33:10.520
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1057
01:33:10.520 --> 01:33:14.640
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1058
01:33:14.680 --> 01:33:19.199
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1059
01:33:19.239 --> 01:33:24.359
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1060
01:33:24.439 --> 01:33:27.880
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