This is doctor Wendy Walsh and you're listening to kf I Am six forty the
Doctor Wendy Walsh Show on demand on the iHeartRadio app. I would like to
welcome my Instagram audience. We just went live on Instagram. If you'd like
to come on in the studio of iHeartRadio, all you have to do is
log onto Instagram and go to my account, which is Dr Wendy Walsh.
Doctor Wendy Welsh. If you're new to my show, just telling the Instagram
people here. I have a PhD in clinical psychology. I'm observed with the
science of love and the segment I want to talk about now is answering trying
to answer that on ending question about why smart women often date bad men,
men who hurt them, men who are abusive, emotionally abusive, physically manipulative,
narcissistic, sociopaths, psychopaths. You know who these guys are, We've
all dated them. Well, there's a reason. There are two reasons.
Actually. The first reason is that many of the kinds of people I've described
actually have very alluring personality traits that make them very attractive. And secondly,
many highly intelligent, super smart women also have certain personality traits that make them
particularly vulnerable and susceptible to these kinds of personalities. One of the books I
looked up on this subject, which I highly recommend, is called Women Who
Love Psychopaths Inside the Relationships of Inevitable Harm with Psychopaths, sociopaths, and Narcissists.
It's written by Sandra Brown. She's the founder of the Institute for Relational
Harm Reduction and Public Pathology Education. She's a former psychotherapist and she's basically a
community educator because she realized in her career that women were becoming victims. They
didn't know how they got there. She uses the example that I've used a
lot, which is when you're in an abusive relationship. Of course, it
never presents itself on the first date. It may not even present itself in
the first few months. It's like that frog that you boil by putting it
in warm water and slowly turning up the temperature. And then after a while,
women stay for all kinds of reasons. In fact, later in the
show, after I take your calls, I want to talk about the reasons
that women stay because it's not just they're trapped in it's financial, they're psychological
things that happen to their brain that make them stay in a bad relationship.
She really believes. Sandra Brown, who wrote the book Women Who Love Psychopaths,
that there are things that women can learn, the red flags that we
can see, in order to prevent us from falling in love with these kinds
of personalities. I have spent my career trying to heal myself and tell people
about this. My first book was called The Boyfriend Test, How to Evaluate
his Potential before You Lose your Heart, And it was really a struggle to
overcome this, to be able to recognize when somebody might be a dangerous mate,
at least emotionally dangerous. So let's talk about some of the personality traits
that make psychopaths and sociopaths really attractive. One is they showcase success. Now
it may be fake, but evolutionary psychologists would say that women are attracted to
successful men, that if they have successful careers, if they're making a lot
of money, that it is very attractive. So they will showcase this.
It may be lies. You know, I was talking to a friend on
the phone the other day. You know, by the way, any gender,
this can happen to I happen to be talking about vulnerable women and dangerous
men right now. But a friend of mine called me and he met a
woman on a dating app and she very quickly got sexual with him. She
FaceTime with him, she showed him some sex toys, et cetera. And
he's like, she wants to meet me. Should I go out with her?
And I'm like, no, you are being romance scammed. He goes,
yeah, but she owns her own condo and she is successful. I'm
like, how do you know she told you that right she's trying to trick
you into getting with her. There's no way that when you first meet a
woman that she's going to be performing so explicitly on the FaceTime unless she wants
something from you. The other thing that sociopaths and psycho past two is they
subtly use operant conditioning. They reward good behavior. They punish bad behavior by
not calling, not showing up, being late, all these little passive aggressive
things the way they punish bad behavior. But who decides what behavior's good behavior
or bad behavior? Their own narcissistic self. So women are trying to figure
out they're just trying to date this guy and they're like, well, when
I do this, I don't hear from him as much. When I do
that, I hear from him more often. So he's slowly shaping her behavior
and she doesn't realize it because it's the early stages of dating and she's trying
to just be attractive. Also, some psychopaths try to make women feel safer.
I'll protect you. I once had a relationship with a guy. It
turned out to down the road be a dangerous relationship. However, it was
years ago. I was on TV. I was hosting a show called Extra,
and there was some tabloid thing saying that I was dating O. J.
Simpson was all lies. So my neighbor came home. She happens to
have blonde hair, and all these paparazzi circled around her car because they're taking
her picture. And she said, no, I'm not her, I'm not
her. So she called me and said, don't come home. There are
all these paparazzi here. So I called the new guy I was dating,
and he's like, Okay, here's what I need you to do. Go
over to Noah's Bagels, sit in the parking lot, keep your doors locked,
keep your windows up. I'm leaving the office right now. I'm gonna
be there in twenty minutes. I'm gonna go over to the house first.
I'm gonna make sure they're gone before you come over. I was like,
I'm falling Sue in love. I'm falling Sue in love. Yeah, it
was fake. It was a moment where he could do a grand gesture to
pretend that he was a protector, not someone who would eventually hurt me.
Often, these psychopaths and sociopaths have a high sex drive because they know if
they can get a woman having sex with them early and regularly, that her
bodies will admit oxytocin, the bonding hormone, and she's going to fall in
love with him, So they will work that system. The other thing that
it's not their fault, I mean, they don't consciously do it, but
it just happens is women who have had abusive childhoods. When they're doing the
roller coaster, the honeymoon, the great thing followed by the awful of fight
and then the makeup sex and whatever, it's reminding them of the inconsistent relationship
they had with daddy when they were kids. So that feels familiar, and
they start to think that that's love. Also to hear about this online everywhere.
Narcissist and sociopath love to love bomb love bomb where they just kill you
with kindness and gifts and make you think like you're the greatest thing ever.
And there are so many women in America with low self esteem that they are
so hungry for this kind of love. They are so hungry for this adulation.
I mentioned the emotional roller coaster. Trust me, I've been on many
of those. The highs are so high, the lows are so awful,
the makeup sex is so wonderful. This is not love. This is not
love. This is somebody manipulating you, and your brain chemistry starts to change
in response to it. They also figure out early what you're looking for and
become that. Now many women in their childbearing years have a very natural,
normal instinct to want to settle down, have a husband, have children.
If they get any inkling that that's you. That's what they're going to tell
you. Oh, yeah, I finally met the one I can settle down
with. It to you, I want to have a whole bunch of babies.
So they play into this sense of longing that many women have. What's
really also interesting is at the beginning they'd say to strong women, you need
to be independent. I think it's so wonderful, your career, whatever.
But it's all fake because after a while they start to slow you down,
they start to control you, they start to say why are you out so
much, They start to isolate you from your friends or family. But at
the beginning, you're like, he lets me be me. It's amazing,
but it's often a trick. Okay, I am going to pause to take
some phone calls on people's relationship questions. Reminder, I'm not a therapist.
I'm a psychology professor, but I love to weigh in on people's love lives.
I've been through enough life experience that I'm like an old auntie to you,
and I'm happy to weigh in. The phone number is one eight hundred
five two zero one KFI. That's one eight hundred five two zero one five
three four. And after I take your phone calls and answer some of your
social media questions, then I want to talk about vulnerable women whist the smartest
women often get entangled with these kinds of men, and what they can do
about it. You are listening to the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show and KFI AM
six forty. The number is one eight hundred five two zero one five three
four. You're listening to Doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KFI AM six forty.
I am taking your calls. The number is one eight hundred five two
zero one five three four. That's one eight hundred five two zero one kfive
Reminder. I'm not a therapist. I'm a psychology professor. But I've written
three books on relationships, and my dissertation was on attachment theory. So I
am happy to weigh in on your relationship. Okay, Producer Kayla, who
do we have? First? We have Carolyn with a question. Carolyn.
Hi, Carolyn, it's doctor Wendy. Hi, go to late. How
are you good? What's your question? So? I was wondering, if
you're dating long distance, how long should you wait to move closer to each
other and how long should you wait for intercourse? Well, there's no shoulds.
First of all. However, long distance relationships, there's a little issue
with them. Generally, they work really well when they're long distance. That's
how they started, that's how it was planned. And then the problems start
when you move into the same city, because then it's a whole new thing.
Or relationships that start in one city often have to struggles when they move
apart, so you have to be prepared for that. I would say,
in my own just personal opinion that nobody should consider moving cities or changing jobs
until you've been together a year, because you need to really know this person.
But when I say together a year, I mean spending time together.
I mean I talk to people who say they're in a long distance relationship,
but they never visit each other. They're just texting, they're just face timing.
It's like a pretend relationship, because you see, the thing about a
real relationship is real time relationship in the real world, face to face,
is that when problems come up, you've got to deal with it right away.
But with long distance relationships, you get the benefit of the time leg
you can wait and try out later. And then my advice on when to
begin having sex for the first time in a new relationship remains the same,
whether it's a long distance relationship or in the same city relationship, and that
is when you trust someone. I find it fascinating that there are women out
there who wouldn't give this man the keys to their apartment to water their plant
while they're away, Yet they would share and expose their bloodstream and their eggs
with him. I mean, think about it. Think about it that way.
So how do you trust? You don't blindly trust? You Watch to
see how much they sacrifice for you, and whether the sacrifice is that you're
giving are reciprocal. This is the important thing, reciprocal. If you are
doing something nice for them, do they do something nice back? Are you
opening up and being vulnerable and honest and emotional and are they doing the same
thing now. Sometimes narcissists and psychopaths do it as sort of a fake thing,
like they act all victimy, like all these bad things happen to them
so you'll feel sorry for them. That's not the same as having emotional intimacy
being seen, heard and understood. And also put some ground rules on it.
We're going to begin sleeping together. I'd like to know you don't have
to be my full time boyfriend. You don't have to We don't have to
post it on Instagram, don't have to make it public. I just want
you to know that if I am sleeping with you. I'd like to know
that I'm the only person you're sleeping with. Put some ground rules on it,
and if they can't say yes to that, then you know it's not
the time. Carolyne, thank you so much for calling. I appreciate it.
Okay, Producer, Kayla, who do we have next? We have
Edward with the question. Edward. Hi, Edward, it's doctor Wendy.
Hi. How are you doing good? What's your question? I've been in
a marriage for about ten years now, and uh, and it seems like
my wife is operating like these men you're you're talking about. You know,
she's very uh, abusive, emotionally abusive, manipulative, abusive, manipulative.
And and she's twelve years my senior, our sixty and she's seventy two.
And we were we're actually married, and and we divorced after three years from
marriage. And then we were divorced for a year and we remarried after my
daughters that went off to college. And and this is my second marriage,
second marriage the same person. Yeah, the third marriage, but second to
the same person. Okay, so let me get it straight. Edward,
you've been married ten years, but this woman that you're married to is twelve
years older than you. You were actually married to her already for three years
and then you divorce, but then you got back together. Why did you
divorce so the first time because my daughters they were another when my daughters were
in the tenth eleventh grade and my teenagers in the household. Yeah, totally
get it. Totally get it. Okay, Yeah, and it just became
very difficult, saint, having had Belinda Famine, my daughter's in the in
the house when they left off to college, right, freed you out?
Yes? Yeah, okay. So the next question is you say she's being
manipulative and abusive. Have you brought this up to her? And how receptive
is she to understanding the dynamic? She's none receptive whatsoever. I mean she
she comes from a background where she didn't have her father. She is raised
by an alcoholic mother, and she just learned she's the oldest of four or
five siblings and she had to take care of her. Okay, So,
Edward, I want to tell you something. It is not your job to
be her savior. It is not your job to take care of her.
It is emotionally, it is not your job to heal her. If she
had a traumatic childhood. It's her job to go to therapy and heal.
What does she say when you ask her to go to couples therapy. We've
done that, then they've done that. Doesn't work. It doesn't work.
So are you ready for a divorce? And the thing that complicates with the
divorce is she's never had any biological tildre of her own. And and when
we first got married, another reason why we were suffering was we end up
fostering kids during the time I was raising my daughters. She was helping me
raising my daughters the last few years of high school, and when up fostering
about a dozen kids over that three year period. And then after we got
out of the foster care of business, so to speak, we we end
up getting back together because I thought maybe because of all the things that were
going on and we didn't have Yeah, I can't imagine starting a new marriage
and becoming foster parents over the course of three years to twelve different kids.
Yeah. Yeah, So but are these kids around now? You said this
complicates the opportunity for divorce, Well, come gets to them. When we
got remarried. You know, when we got remarried, after everything kind of
calmed down, and we were just it was just us. And she gets
a phone call from her sister who's who's schizophrenic or whatever, and her her
her sister's daughter is having a baby and and and her daughter's in jail.
And so she has this baby in jail. And so did you take in
the your sister in law's baby that she gave birth to in jail? Yeah?
Hold, my wife wanted the baby was three months old. How old
is she now? She's now four? And her brother who was a year
and a half. Oh, she got the brother too, now six?
And did you adopt them? But we have these we well we're little guardians
and we have been legal guardians since they were three months old and a year
and a half old. They're now for and six, and they see its
like mom and dad. Right, So you made a commitment to these two
young humans. I feel like this commitment is important to you and you care
about their upbringing. So what I want you to think about it? And
Edward, I highly suggest that if she won't, if therapy hasn't worked for
you guys as a couple, you should go to individual therapy. But the
question you need to solve is how Can I keep my commitment to these kids
and still be divorced so that I can have my sense of self? Or
Am I going to suck it up for the rest of my life because of
these kids and be angry and bitter and all those other things when you might
end up even taking it out of the kids. So I want you to
go to therapy and ask that question, how can I maintain my commitment to
these children but find myself and my freedom? Thank you so much for calling
Edward. I'm sorry you're going for this. Through this, I will continue
to take your calls after the break. The number is one eight hundred five
two zero one five three four. That's one eight hundred five two zero one
KFI. You're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from KF. I am
six forty. I am taking your calls. The numbers one eight hundred five
two zero one five three four Producer Kayla, Who do we have? We
have Laura with the question. Hi, Laura, It's doctor Wendy. Hi.
I'm so honored to talk to you. I'm actually an elms T and
Sucramento twenty three years eight, and I just felt and loved you many years,
aren't you sweet? Thank you so much and thank you for the good
work that you are doing helping to heal people. You have a question for
me? Or do I have a question for you? Doctor Laura? I
have a question. Go ahead, you have a question. Oh we lost
Laurai lost alight and she held on all the way through the commercial. Now
she's back. Okay, what's your question. Yeah, So I was married
or a married about twenty five years. About three years ago, right before
COVID, I decided to separate from my husband, which was painful, but
he lost the stroke, stopped try and help with our two two kids your
ages actually two daughters, and so I just thought I had to move out.
But I thought he might have dementia. So I actually got him into
Kaiser Memory Care and they detected some dementia, nothing significant. In March of
this year, he had a stroke and a pretty bad stroke, and so
I felt like I had to move back home and take care of him.
And I'm still working full time at Kaiser, but I'm just kind of like,
I don't know, doctor Wendy. Like my dream was to retire in
San Diego and work from Trivate practice there and just kind of like live near
the beach, which I love, but I also don't. I'm just morally,
I'm built like I'm super loyal, and I just feel really conflicted.
I have friends that are telling me you're too loyal, you should just put
him in a home, and my heart tells me that's just not congruent with
my values. And you know how you divorced at the time that he had
show. So yeah, now we're actually in the middle of a mediation.
Yeah, gotcha. So it's and how how old are your daughters now?
Nineteen and twenty three? And are you are you seeing a therapist? I
hope? Yeah? Oh god, thank god. What's her opinion of this?
So his opinion is you have to do what feels right for you.
He doesn't really direct me either way, you know. He just says,
like, you know, you could definitely move out and find him a place
to live, and that's going to suck all of your money out, or
if you feel like you want to take care of him, which is it's
not. But I mean, I'm only fifty five. I just right,
And the life of a caregiver is a very hard life. You know,
you need someone to care for you. When you're caring for someone full time.
So I you know, I would talk to this is my girlfriend,
a girlfriend, I would talk to some lawyers and some financial people about how
to be able to divorce him so that he is now financially independent and can
get government assistance. Right, Okay, so there are some things on paper
I suspect I don't know, but that's the first thing I would do is
talk to a lawyer and talk to a like somebody who does financial planning.
And secondly, you know it is possible because I understand this is a big,
giant moral question, but we do no favors to anybody if we lose
ourselves, if we deplete ourselves, if we give to the point where we're
angry, where we get sick, where your kids are now taking care of
you because you've exhausted being the caregiver. Right, So trying to find that
balance of being able to honor your moral desire to get him the best care
he can get, but at the same time take care of yourself, because
finding another relationship and falling in love is practicing self care. It's caring for
your mental health. And I think you should talk to your therapist about how
you can reframe it that way, and I think it is possible to create
a hybrid. If it was me, I would say, there's got to
be a way to create a hybrid. Get him to a facility in near
San Diego, regular visitation from you, make sure that uh, you know
he's cared for financially, make sure you're legally covered. I think there's more
to this question than just the emotional moral question. I think there are some
practical questions that you know, As I said, lawyers and financial planners can
help you with. And I would also bring your daughters in on the conversation
because they're adults now and they can also begin to take on some of the
caregiver burden. Doesn't have to be all on you mom, right, it's
their dad too. And I mean, I don't know about your kids,
but my daughters are one to UCLA, the other one is going to nursing
school, and they're like, I'm done like all the other one that lasts.
So if you talk to them as this is, I'd like to make
family plan where my needs are being taken care of and each of your needs
are taken care of, and that we don't leave dad too much in the
lurch, involve them in the conversation of decision making, because if the last
line you said was interesting, you're the one who left him. Like in
other words, your punishment now because you left our father is that you need
to take care of him, which is crazy, right, because he's related
to all three of you in some way, in fact, more related to
them than you totally. So that was a little guilt trip. They tried
delay and you picked up that bat right. But oh yeah, I get
the hook a lot of time. Yeah, you get the hook because you
have a lot of empathy. Right. You're you're in the healing profession,
you're a therapist. And also a lot of people don't understand that the work
you do, Laura is mentally taxing. You know, I don't have a
license to practice. And one of the reasons why is because when I was
trying to get my hours, I was a single mom with a two year
old and a four year old, and I would come home emotionally depleted after
seeing patients all day and then have to deal with a two year old taking
a tantrum. It is hard work when you're an EmPATH, which most people
in the business are. I know, that they teach you how to have
good boundaries and how to see your own therapist and all that stuff, but
it's still exhausting, it is. I'm happy that you don't have a license.
I mean, I think that's to survive in this business. So good
for you. Well, I mean I teach, right, and you don't
need a license to teach cam Island. Yes, exactly so. And I
enjoy teaching and educating. Oh aren't you sweet? That's so nice to hear.
That's lovely. But I do think you should spend some time, you
know, thinking about the practical things of it. And also if I'm here
as a friend to do anything for you, it's to pull you off the
guilt train. You don't anything at this point. You as a compassionate person
and give some degree of care, but I want you to practice self care.
That's what I want to see for you. This is my personal opinion.
Thanks for calling, Laura, I really really appreciate it. When we
came back. Why some really smart women like me are really susceptible to bad
guys. You're listening to doctor Wendy Walsh on demand from kf I am six
forty. We're in the home stretch of the Doctor Wendy Walsh Show. But
I want to touch on a very sensitive, close to my heart topic.
You know, I've told you I have a pretty high shame tolerance. When
people ask me about mistakes I've made as a human being, usually throw you
know, it just rolls off my back. But it's that one that hurts
the most, and from time to time people bring it up. When I'm
talking about some of the damaging relationships that I've been in the past, the
hurtful, painful relationships, people will say, inevitably, but you're so smart.
How can such a smart woman make such a dumb choice. I want
to remind you that the intellectual brain and the emotional brain are two different things,
and the emotional brains in charge. The emotional brain is seeking pleasure,
except when it seeks love. It's not seeking pleasure, it's seeking the familiar.
The familiar is what happened in the first few years of life, and
it may involve feelings of loss, and in my case, there were a
lot of feelings of loss, and so as a result, if I met
someone who triggered those feelings, I would confuse it with that familiar feeling of
love. You know, I always felt stupid that I was in some very
bad relationships. But I'm here to tell you if you are like me,
and you've tried as hard as you can and make the right choices and still
found yourself time and time again with the same kind of people, You're not
stupid for being in a trauma bond. You're not stupid. We're missing out
on some of the red flags. You're not stupid for not knowing what boundaries
are. You're not stupid for staying in the relationship. You're not stupid for
going back again and again. I'll bet the abuse like happened with me started
slowly and quietly. In fact, it was easily forgiven. If you had
actually said or done anything, they would have turned and said, you are
making such a big deal over nothing, you're being so petty, or you're
being a little crazy. You know, I think I told your story that
one time, one of the people who I was in a terrible relationship with
he on our very first like falling in love time. We were on a
business trip of mine, so the hotel room was paid for by the company
I was traveling with, but I put my own credit card for incidentals,
and when I checked out, I noticed two shirts from the pro shop on
the list. But I was so head over heels I didn't want to go
marching out to the Valley Parker where there he was with the bags, going
what about these shirts? You're gonna pay me back for the two T shirts?
It just seems so petty, It seems so silly. But it was
a test, a test, and eventually he stole a lot of money from
me. So here are some of the personality traits that actually make you women
more vulnerable to dangerous men. High extraversion. Yeah, us extroverts. We
like excitement, novelty, and we avoid boredom. And we find psychopaths initially
initially thrilling. We don't see them dangerous, we see them exciting. We
also are attracted to dominance and strength. I used to say I'm looking for
a man who's stronger than me because I'm such a strong woman. Or I
used to say I'm looking for a benevolent king, right, So women who
are attracted to a dominant man are more susceptible to these kinds of guys.
Also, competitive women, I used to say, I'm going to prove my
friends wrong. I am going to do whatever it takes to fix this relationship.
I am going to make it work. Also, social sensitivity, people
with high empathy. Empathy, being kind and compassionate means that you're easily targeted
by a psychopath. And guess what this is often genetic. I read about
that My mother was highly empathetic. She was a caring, loving mother,
and she often underestimated how dangerous people would be. One time, as a
kid, coming back going we were gonna staying in a hotel because we were
moving, and there was a guy in the lobby who asked me if I
wanted to ride in his convertible car. And I ran away and ran to
her and said, Mom, there's a guy. Well, you never know.
He could have been a nice man, and he could have been just
wanting to give you a nice ride in that red convertible. Why you always
think bad about people? Right, That's how I was raised. Also,
women who have high attachment, the ones who fall in love deeply and attach
closely. Oh, we're suckers for those social paths who love bomb us.
Also, you're a kind person and you have great concern for other people,
meaning that you would never want to hurt anybody, including the person who's hurting
you. In fact, we rationalize it and we say, oh, they
had a bad childhood. I'm going to kill them with kindness. I'm going
to crush them with love. I'm going to turn them around and they'll see
that if I just of them enough that somehow they will believe in me and
believe in this relationship and believe in love. That's what we do. Because
we're kind. We also tend to have high morals. High morals, that's
who psychopaths seek out women who won't leave because it's immoral to do that.
Oh, I had a caller like that recently. All right, if this
sounds like you, I want to make sure I put a plug in for
the National Domestic Violence Hotline. Whether it's physical violence or emotional violence, you
need to give them a call. The number is eight hundred seven ninety nine
safe. That's eight hundred seven nine nine seven two three three, Or go
to the hotline dot org. Or go see a psychotherapist as I did,
and get yourself healed. I have a great relationship now, by the way,
I love my Julio, and it's so wonderful to be with a man
who's not dominant, who just loves me to death anyway, I'm always here
every Sunday from seven to nine pm. You can also follow me on my
social media. I am doctor Wendy Walsh. Thanks so much for being with
me on KFI AM six forty. We're live everywhere on the iHeartRadio app.
You've been listening to doctor Wendy Walsh. You can always hear us live on
k f I am six forty from seven to nine pm on Sunday and anytime
on demand on the iHeartRadio app