Hey, this is Fred Green of Golf Smarter with our seventh installment of spring
Back into Golf season with the late Tony Manzoni. This episode was published in
twenty fourteen and podcasting still really hadn't caught on yet, so there wasn't a
lot of competition between distributors at the time or know how to work the system.
I'm pretty sure that was before I could schedule an episode to publish while
I was on vacation. Now I can make sure that you never miss a
week without a new episode, even when I'm away. So this episode was
two weeks with Tony in one show episodes four hundred and thirty eight and four
hundred thirty nine. So we packed a lot of information and a lot of
topics into one long show, and it's a long one. It's over an
hour now. Tony's book The Lost Fundamental is available on Amazon, and his
DVD, which we converted to a private link online, is also available when
you write to me and for the most comprehensive information ever collected about Tony Manzoni,
please go to Golfsmarter dot com. Slash Tony and Tony is all lowercase.
If you'd like to access that video. Please write to me directly golf
Smarter podcast at gmail dot com, or click on the Heyfred button when you
visit Golfsmarter dot com for members only. Golf Smarter numbers four hundred thirty eight
and four hundred thirty nine. Published on May twenty seven, twenty fourteen.
This is two weeks where the episode's delivered. It once. It's an hour
long conversation, but luckily it's a podcast and you can listen as much or
as little as you want. Starting right now, Ben Hogan's Secret Letter and
The Loss Fundamental Short Game with Tony Manzoni. This is golf Smarter. Welcome
back to the Golf Smarter Podcast. Tony, Hey, great to be back,
Fred. It's great to tell have you been well. I had a
little bit of a mishap. It's kind of funny in a way. I
broke three bones of my right foot ankle by falling from a hill. I
hit a wet spot and slid downhill and body weight went forward and right leg
didn't want to go forward and it snapped like a twig. So it's been
a little setback. But other than that, life is really good. My
golf team did well again, We won the twenty seventh conference championship in a
row, which is kind of crazy. Each year I just shake my head.
I don't know why it keeps happening, but it does. Do you
recruit these kids? Are they find you? I mean you keep winning and
winning? Yeah, we get them from all over. This year we had
a bunch of boys out of the country and some of them, yeah,
some were really good players. And they're all coming back next year. But
I always say to them, how did you find the College of the Desert
from Belgium? But they go on the website and if you look at the
website, you know our record really is really is sensational. And then the
area that we'll end is such a beautiful area for golf. We go over
one hundred golf courses, great weather, it's spring when we compete. We
have a wonderful drive range on the facility. I'm a PGA member. I
like to hope that part of them company is my coaching, and the whole
package is good for a young person that really wants to get into golf in
a serious way. So it's good. Yeah, Gus details, Yeah,
more details about the school where it is and so people can Yeah. The
name of the school is College of the Desert. It's in Palm Desert,
California. It's a population of about ten thousand students. We have been rebuilding
the college, built all kinds of new buildings. Campus is fabulous. Of
course, the weather in Palm Desert gard the Cochello Valley is second to none,
and especially in springtime. So it's just a marvelous place to come to.
Uh. You know, we have a lot of we have the Coachella
Fest and all kinds of activities for young people. But it's just a great
place to live. I'm very lucky I left the Bay Area and you know,
we we all know the sALS is of the greatest season all time.
It's not the greatest. Yeah, I do miss it, believe me.
But but for me and golf and what I had wanted to accomplish, this
is probably the best place I could have come to. Well, congratulations,
you guys have just owned it. And uh, I think it's more of
a testimony to to your teaching. But even I hope it's part of it.
For sure. I have I do have a formula that I use every
year and it seems to be working out. Uh. And you know,
the kids nowadays, you don't really have to teach much when it comes to
the apple, the movement of the swing. They're all pretty up to date,
you know, they're all into rotation and connection and so forth. So
it's not a hard sell. It's not like it was, let's say,
fifteen years ago, where everybody was, you know, more of my hands
and arm swinger opposed to body swinger, so that parts are really good well.
And we've also had tremendous success. Your book and the video actually the
only place that really available on golf Smarter. And it's amazing to me what
a phenomenal response you've received from the golf Smarter community. It is amazing because
you know, I'm you know, seriously, I'm a no name. I'm
just a golf professional, although I think that I'm a pretty good teacher.
And when we did the book, when we did the book, I did
it kind of for friends and family and hoping that some people in a golfing
community would like it and accept it. And I must say that I'm pleasantly
surprised. Thanks to your sight too. You have such a great group of
people that are on your site all the time, so that's been a big
plus for me, and I enjoyed a small success, so people out of
the country by it, which is always kind of cool and all over the
world it's crazy. It's crazy. Well, let's talk about the book and
what you cover and what your method is, because it's very effective. It
is a quick history about fifteen twenty years ago. I had NFL walk in
my office and tell me, would you like a copy of a letter that
Ben Hogan wrote explaining how to hit the driver? And also he had a
film that was private film that he had taken and no one had actually seen
him home in swing, and you know, I almost jumped to his lap.
So I read. The first thing I did is I read the letter,
and the first thing I noticed was that Hogan stated, but on the
top of the backswing, he has his weight shifts shifts to the instep of
his left foot. And when I read it, I thought, well,
I think he means the instep of his right foot, because that's what all
traditional thinking was. And then I went on to read the letter and that
was really informative, and a lot of stick figure pictures and so forth.
And then I watched the film and you know, and it was very obvious
that he was staying on his left side throughout the backswing. It looked like
he set up a little bit like side say sixty forty, and I think
when you really center your head to the golf ball, you must be a
little bit more on the left side of the right side. I noticed that
his right the right hip was aligned on the inside side of his right foot,
so that was his right side grace. And I just noticed that when
he's slung her rotated his shoulders around his spine, and the shoulders really were
more level than his earlier swings. And the film that I had was after
the accident, and that's really when he said I'm going to start playing off
the left side. And the funny thing about that statement the left side,
A lot of people say that, but they don't know what it means.
It certainly isn't stack and tilt. A lot of people will say, oh,
you teach sack untilt, and I don't. And I'm not speaking against
stack and tilt. I just believe that the shoulders really don't tilt on the
downswing. I believe they turn based on the way they were set up at
the ball, because when they tilt. It really steepens the swing and the
downswing. And it also the hands must must higher and the body ends up
in kind of what we used to call a seat position, and people that
do that on a lot, you know, do that a lot end up
with lower back problems, as did most of the people from the era that
I played in. So I believe in turning more level, as Hogan says,
to turn the level left and posting up so that when you when you
finish, your body is really more erect and your weight is really on the
left side and you're not your body isn't tilted back. So when I got
all this information, I started applying it to some of the people that I
taught, elderly people who their first complaint was I want to hit it farther.
That seemed to be the number one chant that I got from everyone that
I said, Well, what would you like to do in the golfing?
I want to hit it farther. So I started working with this, and
Holy mackerel uh. Because I had them more on the left side, I
could get them onto the total left side. I get them through the golf
ball much easier than when they transferred their weight right and then back to the
left. And I readily saw that there was a rationale for doing this.
This wasn't a band aid, but this was really the way you did it.
And then going back into filming, you know, I saw the Palmers,
the Nicholas's and all the greats. They had long careers, their head
was very steady. They had did not move to the right in the back
sleet. So little by little I started really buying into this. Then I
got a call from al Geiberger, who is a resident here, and of
course I'm a very famous golfer, Mister fifteen nine, we call him.
And Ali said, you know, when I read your article on the golf
magazine Local magazine, I thought you had flipped your wig. He said,
but I started doing it with a fellow that was reversing his weight shift all
the time, and he said it worked like a charm. I got him
from falling back to the right side and he is not finishing and hitting the
ball. You know, really really great that I started to tinkerating. Now
think about this, al Geibergers having one of the great golfams of all time.
And he said, because of my age, I can't get to that
left side like I used to, and he said it works like a charm.
So that was the kind of the catalyst in the history of how I
really bought into this because I had to buy into it just like everybody else
I was taught. You know, shift you away to the take your shirt
them and shift you a way to the right leg and then shift back to
the left. And you know, there's a big timing element there because you've
got to make a little lateral slide and then rotate, and this eliminates that
lateral side slide. So then everyone that I taught, so you know,
you need to write this in some kind of a book for him so other
people can see it. And you know, they were rubbing my elbow pretty
hard there. I'm the elbow, I mean, my ego pretty hard there.
So I thought, well, what the heck, why not do that?
So I wrote that little periodical. It's small little book, as you
know, but I think it's concise. And I have done this now since
today I got that letter. I have been continuous. I have never stopped
doing this. And I can tell you that I have never had anyone say
I can't do it this way, I can't hit it this way I think
this is wrong, not one, and I would tell you even if there
was one, I would tell you it's never happened. And I've had a
lot of guests, by the way, come from your side your site,
that came into town to take a lesson from me, and I must say
that I got love letters from them after m I've received those letters as well.
I've had people in the golf Smarter community right to me from all over
the United States and even outside I'm pretty sure, who have come to Palm
Desert in the Palm Springs area in southern California to take lessons with you and
were just just so happy of the results. It really has been astounding,
and you can only thank mister Hogan because he was really the one that I
think there was other players that played off the left side for sure in his
era, and subsequently some that did after. I mean Lee Trevino, on
a conversation I had with him, said to me, I've seen a lot
of guys that had great, long careers that played off the left side,
but I've never seen anyone that had a long career that played off the right
side. And I didn't understand what he was saying, and of course,
like most people, I was embarrassed to say, what do you mean by
that? But then after I got into this, I certainly understood what he
was talking about, and no true statement can be made. The thing I
love about it is that I get women have started to play golf later in
years, and also men, and they've taken a couple of lessons. They
and I say, well, you know, you're really on to finishing your
slay it and so let my protoe going to shift my weight, but I
just can't do it. And I explained to them, but I said,
the reason you can't is because your body is in the wrong position. At
the top of the E're in a place where there's no way, no place
to go but the hit off of the right foot. Throw your arms at
the ball and just hope that your hands square instead of roll over and closer,
are stay open. And that's why a lot of people, you know,
they slice the ball and then they pull the ball and now they don't
know where to go. And it's just primarily because they've put the responsibility of
scoring the clubt with the hands and arms, and that is tenulous at best.
When you do this system, you set up to the ball, and
you create your triangle with your arms, and you set to the golf ball.
You rotate your right shoulder behind your neck, so there's no movement to
the right. What you're doing is displace and your weight behind your spine,
and in doing that, the right hip and right shoulder go behind you,
and you actually add a little bit more weight to the left side. The
right arm folds into its throat position simultaneously as a right shoulder turns, so
it's a real simple move. You're not trying to take it back low or
do all these things that we've been talked about are cockterist here. Don't talk
to rists here. You just take that try and go back with the rotation
of your right side behind you and let the right arm fold naturally, and
that sets the club and it's in your throw position. Because everybody's in a
little different position. If I give you a baseball, say throw thread,
you might throw it from a little different position above your shoulder or below your
shoulder than I would, and we're all subject to that. So it's ludicrous
to tell someone I don't care that you have to put the club here,
because here it doesn't exist. It's depending on their anatomy. And then the
next part of it is I don't get involved with where the club head is
at the top and the sense of is by wrist flat or is by risk
cupped. I let the natural hinging of the risk occur. Some people it
flattens a little bit, some people it stays cupped. It really matters is
where it's at impact. And I find that, you know, Halgan cupped
his wrist like crazy, but it impacts his risks were flat, And I
think that's really not a part of manipulation of the hands. I think that's
part of getting the left side out of the way, keeping the left arm
connected across the chest. And let me say this, no matter who you
are, if you're right handed golfer, when you take the club back,
your left arm goes across your chest. So that's not some trickery. That's
the only way you can move. And when that left arm goes across the
chest, it connects. It connects on top of the pectoral muscle of your
left side of your chest. That's that's where true connection is. So when
you take that club back, the right arm folds, that left arm is
stretched across the chest. Where that chest, where that left arm is is
setting, is where it must stay on the first move of the downswing.
That's why a lot of people used to put a headcover under their arm pit
or a handkerchief, and that was to keep that left arm from coming down
immediately in the downswing. Because once you do that, you are now subject
to what your arms can do. You've left your body behind. So all
this stuff about dropping the hands first, I mean, I'm not saying that
you can't do that, but for the average person, they drop their hands
first, they're going to just pull their arms down and they're going to either
hit it behind the ball or hit it fin and if they're lucky, they're
going to hit it in the air. But they're not going to hit it
with any force because they're only using their arms. They've eliminated their core.
Where when you take the club back correctly across the chest and then you start
a rotational move oors, you're doing the opposite of what you do on the
backsley. You turned on a single axis, which is your left side,
and then you rotate around that axis and that arm stays there eventually to right
out straight and just the club hits the ball and then as you rotate to
the left and you must have the club follows you back to the left and
the left arm fold it's just like the right armfold on the right side.
So it's a really simple it's a simple, simple move. And I have
people that come to me that are, you know, ones and two handicaps,
thirty handicaps, and they always say, what, don't I have to
worry about this? Don't I have to worry about it? I said,
no, you're hitting the ball great, aren't you. Yeah, I says,
golf is like every other sports. There's a domino effect. You make
the correct move here, a bunch of good moves happen, you get in
the wrong position. I don't care who you are, you're going to have
a tough time with the game. I get frequent questions from listeners asking me
about the book and the DVD that you have offered and want to know your
response which is better for them. I always say, just buy both,
but when somebody wants to when somebody wants to stay you more of the Lost
Fundamental, which is the name of the book and the DVD, which are
both available, and our golfer Smart goolf smarter dot com. Tell me the
difference from your perspective of what those two have to offer. Well, I
think that we all learn differently. Some people like to see it, and
some people can when they read it, they can see it. You know.
I personally love the book because I can go back and I can put
in the yellow marks where I I think it's important. I think because I
forget myself. Believe me. You know, there's a science to this,
and even in this simplicity, the sequence has to be correct. When I
hit a ball, fan or fat, I know that I first of all
didn't get past the ball. And that's one of the one of the things
that I hear all the time. Stay behind the ball, Stay behind the
ball. There's no sport that I know where you don't move through impact.
When you throw a punch, when you need a tennis ball, when you
have a baseball, there's a movement forward. Now it isn't a straight line
movement, but there's a movement. Pass the ball. For sure, you
got to end up on your left side, so you're rotating around that axis.
But pass the ball. You want your right shoulder and right hip to
go past the golf ball. You don't want to keep it behind. And
that's again what I see on the drive range all the time. You see
people end up with their swinging still back on the right right foot. There's
a couple of guys on tour that I will mention that if they understood this
and got over a little bit and address on the left side, they wouldn't
be hitting off that right side and all of a sudden hit it a fairway
left or fairly right, which they still continue to do. And these are
unbelievable golfers that have so much talent and do it every day. Think about
the average guy, our gal. They don't put that much time and they
don't have the physical attributes that these people have, so how the heck are
they to go play the game. And that's why the score is primarily stayed
the same for men and women. With all this technology, new ball,
all this stuff, scores is still really, really high. I always had
a wrist hinge issue with my left hand. I'm right handed, but my
wrist is hinged. I'm just starting to get it under control here, but
I've always found that what the impact it had on me was that my club
face would be open at impact and so the ball most people roll, Yeah,
most people roll or it comes with the right hand grab. They roll
the club open. Okay. Now that's a compensation that has to be dealt
with on the dolls wing. So you got to roll the club closed.
And who can roll it open and close it and get it right back to
where they started as they're moving it's seven eighty miles an hour cloud club at
speed. I mean, it's just it's all silly to think you can.
So most people roll it open and then close it hook the ball. In
fact, that that's how a lot of people, when they want to look
the ball, will fan it and then close it and they'll get a little
drawer or close it coick to make it go wrong corner. The correct way
I believe is that when you hold the close in your hands, your right
your left wrist should be bed and your right wrist should be flat. Okay,
And what you want to do is you want to move that position at
least past your right leg in the back swing, and you move it with
the turning of your shoulders, which swings the arms back. Now, if
you do that, if you do that, if you can get past that
and just let the natural occurrence happen. What will happen is that the right
wrist will go back a little bit and fold down like you're holding plates.
Depin on how much how much flexibility you have on the risk, and the
left wrist will flatten a bit. It may it may only hinge like you're
hinging a club towards your nose, you know, up and down may hinge,
or it may flat in a little bit. And then again it depends
on the way you have your hands on the club, flexibility of verst and
so forth. Remember the backswing, it's just it's just the point where you're
changing directions. So it's not you take the club up to a spot and
stop and start. That's just you know, the golf sort is a continuous
move. Uh. But but to start the club back, you need to
start it back slow. It has to have a rhythm, but it has
to be slow because if you start fast, two things occur. You're gonna
grab it with the right hand and you're going to pull it right wrist back.
You're going to bring that club back to the inside too soon. That's
number one and number two. When you have a fast backswing, you're always
going to have a short backswing. Those two go together. So if you
want to hit it a long ways, you have to have a wide swing
and you have to take time. As I tell people, if you're going
to shoot an arrow with a bowl, you have to pull that bowl all
the way back. There's there's a time period to do that. So you
see people with these real short, fast swings. They hit it nowhere,
and that's the majority of people are playing because they're not sure what they want
to do, so they get quick, they get it over with. How
would you advise someone to change their tempo and be conscious of it. I
have a friend that I've been playing with. I've have a friend that I've
been playing with for years that stands over the ball for almost forty seconds.
He just stares at the ball and then all of a sudden, if you
blinked, you miss the entire swing. It is so fast, and he
can't understand why he doesn't get better, and it's like, dude, slow
down. Well, yeah, first of all, he needs to he needs
to have a pre shot routine when starts from behind the ball and then he
goes to the golf but looks at the target, looks back at the ball
and as he's doing that, he's aligning himself and calming himself down. And
then to start the temple, A good a good way to start the temples.
Start with like your right knee kind of a kick in. It just
kicks kind of like a forward press. But you really want your body to
set the temple. You don't want your hands and arms to set the temple
because they'll get out of position immediately. These they'll get they'll get across you,
and your chest has moved. And now when your chest turns and your
shoulders turned, your club's going to go way inside. So the sequence has
to be a more one piece. Now, you know, I don't mind
if the club hit moves a little early, a little first, but I
like to feel as if I set the temple with the sternal of my chest.
Some people like to set the temple with their shoulders, but for God's
sakes, you can't set the temple with your hands because you'll start slow and
then you'll quick you'll you know, yank it back because you'll it just doesn't
feel right. You've got to do this like you're winding up your body and
not just taking your arms back. And that's I think that's a good thought.
Is that a slow wind of the body so that you can really get
coiled and now you've got some room to create momentum on the down slide.
How do you create the tempo or set the tempo from your sternum? Well,
I think about I think about my chest turning. Okay, so I
just think the center of my chest. So I connect my arms and so
my arm. Imagine that my chest is a picture and my two arms are
a frame of that picture. I try to keep that picture the chest between
those two arms, okay, And so I focus on that picture, and
I'm using this analogy because it's my picture. You know, other people might
use their nose. I don't know, but I use that, and so
I try to keep that picture inside that frame as I turn. So in
doing so, I'm taking the address position and I'm moving it to the right
of me, and then of course the armholes and puts club in in my
throw position. But that's that's my process because I've always been fast. I've
been a Lanny Watkins kind of backswing. And you know, if you have
the challenge at landing Watkins, you can get away with it. But I
certainly don't and most people don't. So what happens, SERI, you pull
that baby aside too much. You mentioned about putting the club head cover under
your arm made me think about I don't know if he's a disciple of yours,
but I know he's a fan of yours. And that's Martin Chuck of
Tour Striker out of Arizona. He's been on the show multiple times, and
he developed the Tours Striker Club and now he has a new product that this
little inflatable ball that you can either deflate it and put under your arms,
or when you inflate it, you hold it between your arms so that they
stay connected, right, And he talks about he's been on the show multiple
times, and he talks about you and your methods. Well, you know,
Martin, it's really funny. I was a member of I was giving
an honorary membership at a club that Martin was the head progam here in the
desert, and you know, I always try to stay away out of the
way of the pro shop and all that, because I felt a little guilty.
I was paying any dudes, I was paying any membership fees. So
I was always in the back of the arrangement I played, and this happened
late in my life. You know, I saw I wasn't a great player
or anything. Martin and I liked Martin very much, really a gentleman,
a really nice young guy. But at that time we didn't really get social
because I always, like I said, I always felt like, I hope
he doesn't think I'm going to be trying to give lessons out here, or
I'm after his job or anything like that. Doesn't want of pros feel that
way. Martin has, It turned out, didn't have that kind of thought
in his mind. But one day he asked her if I would play in
a junior senior event with him, and I said sure, but part of
me said, oh, man, I don't want to shoot eighty because,
like I say, this is end of my off career. So we cot
paired with two of the best players in Southern California. One guy's going on
the tour, one guy just got off the senior tour. That was there's
team against us that we started the first hole and we tied them, but
they had blasted their balls out there fifty yards past both of us, and
then we had started. It was a shot to the event. We started
on the ninth hole and then it was like a crazy thing. I meane,
Birdie had ten and eleventh, Part twelve, Birdy thirteen, Part fourteen,
had a hole in one and fifteen Birdy sixteen, and I shot like
twenty nine or twenty eight on the back that said, what are you doing
out here? Martin? Somebody should put up with plaqu right now because a
miracle is occurring. Well, anyway, long story short, I think I
shot one under on the back and Martin shot two or three under on the
other, I should say, and we win the tournament going away. I
mean, it was just it wasn't even a contest. The two guys were
playing with the looks on their faces. Was at wish I had that picture
because of this classic as they figured, you know, especially on the first
roll of the droll. It out there about three ten each and we're out
there about two sixty. You know, well, we're going to get rid
of these guys real quick. Is to turn off. We want the tournament.
So you know, Martin and I we've laughed about that tournament and the
only time we ever played together, okay, and we've never really talked about
the golf swing but I watched Revolutionary Golf every now and then, and Martin's
on there and are are on your site, and we talked the same language.
We believe it the same thing. And as ironic as this is is,
I had to see Martin for years. I went to Lake Tahoe last
summer with my gal and one of my clients belong to a golf course up
there, and when I walk in, Gus Jones, who I know very
well from the desert, is an anthro and Martin Juff is a teaching prone
I'm just about fell over. So we had a big laugh over there.
But he's a great guy, really, a very very fine golfer. I
mean, and you know, if you want to watch one of the golf
singers, look at what he's doing and that tour striker and that he created
his genius it really is Do you like that? Do you like that product
and what it how it teaches you to come down on the ball. Well,
I'm sure I like him. And the only thing is I will say
that it's for the average guy. It's very hard because the average guy doesn't
do it right, doesn't get you know, it doesn't He's got that handle
behind the club. He had the impact, so the head's coming up,
so he stopped and he get the bowl airborne. And I must say,
the first time I did it, I just shot it down the about a
foot off the ground. About what the heck, you know? But then
al Geiberger was the first one that had had one, and he brought it
over and he says, you got to try this, and then the ast
you my correct kick, and I started the ball and I thought, God,
this is terrific, and you know it must be a good thought trillion.
Yeah, he's having fun with that. I'm curious to go back to
this, this tournament that the two of you played together, because recently in
a conversation UH with Mark Brody about Every Shot Counts his book, and we
were talking about golf metrics and how he's saying that statistics show that the drive
for show put for doe is actually backwards. That you really if you hit
the ball longer and farther, you're gonna have lower scores. I should say
longer and straighter, you're gonna have lower scores because you're you're coming into the
green with shorter irons, which are gonna, you know, increase your chances
of hitting the green. What was the key? What is it about you
guys not hitting the ball far? But okay, you got a hold one.
But what is it that that beat them? And what can we learn
from that? What really happened? Uh? I kind of after the really
after the first tea shot, which was a it was mediocre at best,
I kind of felt something. Uh it was like a little precock position at
address. And I don't know how things happened. And I started, you
know, because I was playing from the senior teas. I started keeping it
up with this fellow and on occasion even doctor Passon and and and I think
I rattled them a little bit because you know, on the first first te
shot he got me the at least with fearms, So that was part of
it. And then my iron plate just got stupid good. I was just
drilling it in there. And I mean I was laughing, truthfully, laughing
to myself, like when is this bubble gonna bursts? And just to think
about this, going hold on one birdie okay, you know, I mean
usually you go hold on one triple bogie excited, but it just, you
know, I guess I kind of got out of my own way and it
was in an overdrive when I got that feeling that no matter what I did,
it was going to be good. And you know that they call that
the zone. But you know, you know, I have a fifteen or
twenty foot put bam and the whole ten foot put bam and the whole five
foot put bam, and it just just just it just went crazy. And
then when I got a little bit conscious of it, you know, and
you shoot under thirty uh, and then went to the other side. I
had started with a par I had eight holes to go. I had a
tough time because I was conscious. I wanted to shoot some you know,
your ego gets so going out of proportion. Uh. So you know,
like I said, I think I was one under or something like that,
but that one night was magic. It was just I thought, well,
this is what it must feel like to be tied Wood was or whoever,
you know, because you know, it was just simple. It was just
absolutely simple. Getting back to what you said about something, I'd like to
bring something up from my past years ago. I was training some ladies on
the LPGA when I was at Mission Hills, and I mean because they had
the craft of the Bisco at that time, and I became a big fan
of ladies golf because I saw how great they hit the golf ball, but
they couldn't hit it very far compared to a man. And I started thinking
about it way way back when he had a termament. I can't even remember
that they were, but it was a man and a woman against a man
and a woman. So just for the fun of it, I started using
the computer and looking at the distance, and women hit the drive and also
the second shot. And when I looked at what the ladies tour was,
hardly anybody was reaching power fives two and they were hitting long irons, and
sometimes Ferrari was to the power fours where the men were hitting drives eight iron,
seven irons right in there all the time, and the long hunters were
brought away with the power four as you drive and lynch. So I compiled
a distance advantage that I thought men women should have over men, and I
wanted to set up men tournament, I mean, a woman against ben tournament.
And we came up with seventy five yard distance. And I knew Sandra
Palm and some of the gals from the NDABISCO had told them about it,
and We went over to a golf course and at that time I could pop
it out there three hundred yards plus, so I played from the back tees
and then I moved the girls up seventy five yards and we hit our t
shots and well, heck, they were still ahead of me even if I
busted it, because they needed to be because they needed to hit cbs going
to hit an eight R and I hit an eight air and at that time
about one sixty they would have to be. They would have to be able
to hit an eight from their distance probably about like one fifty or one forty
five. So there they needed that distance advantage also the second shot. So
it worked out great and we played nine holes in they shot. They were
all, you know, five under and they, you know, very excited.
Thirty one, thirty two is for you know, a part thirty six.
So I got some people interested in my concept and they said, well,
we'll fund that. Its culinary work. Regunie and went to the PGA
with the idea. I'm trying, I can't think of the name of the
guy. Then there was a good player. He was an attorney with glasses
and he immediately said, no, we would never do that. Because you
know, we have nothing in the game. So I came back with my
tail between my legs and I met with Commissioner re Volpi, who was a
commissioner for the LPGA at the time, and we talked about it and said,
well, there is one chance we could do the thing in December when
there is no tour. We could do it like an old turk dance.
We'll have the gals invite the guys. So my friends that were sponsoring the
thing in the Hotel Workers Union, they got the Dural Country Club and we
had the gals invite the boys. Said the Palmer invited Arnold Palmer, and
anyway, we had Trevino Palmer, we had everybody, and we did this
tournament and it was a rolls and success. Didn't have it on regular television,
had on PBS, but you know, everybody really enjoyed the event.
But they didn't play men against women, but they did give the gallas a
seventy five yard dis stands. The second year, Frank Snotra, who I
knew very well, say I'd like to sponsor that tournament and I'll bring a
Stayers Roebuck in. But she did, and you know, long story short,
just before the tournament was going to be announced, the mom uh flew
was in a jet plane to go see him in Vegas and they flew right
into the Santa Rose and mountains here in the desert. She died and he
had to back out of the tournament, and of course Hears went with him.
So there I am now, and I spent more money than I had
trying to promote this thing and make the appearance of success. You know,
fancy card closed. So because I was meeting with the Actors Equity, which
was one of mister Snoptra's charities and for actors that are now on their luck,
they either pay for their medical bills or so far. Well, when
I got the word from mister snopts people that you know, he couldn't announce
obviously, you know, Mom died, calling LPGA grabbed the tournament with the
PGA and they had waiting in the ways hands uh J C pennies and that's
when they became a Jac Kennedies Mixed Team Championship and out of I think they
played somewhere in Florida, like Tampa or something like that, and it was
on TV for about fourteen years and everybody said, well, you got to
sue. That was your idea, and you have all the paperwork, and
I said, look, I was trying to promote ladies going. I don't
give a damn about suing anybody. I feel like I got. I should
have been giving a pad on the back or a goal watch or something.
But the key thing that the key thing that I was bringing this up about
it is not so much I had lost the turn everything, But the disparity
between men and women's golf is distance. It's not ability. Believe me when
I tell you the gals can hit the hell out of the golf bottle,
and they can. I think there's a few gals out there that I'll put
against the men and putting any day. But you can't overcome the distance.
And you know, when Michelle Wee was coming out and she's fourteen and doing
so well, when people were saying she's going to go on the tour,
they interviewed me and I said, look, you know can do lift weights,
uh for ten years, and then you put me in a cage where
a bear or a lion or or whatever, and they're gonna tear apart.
And that's that's nature and yellow the show's a wonderful little gallay. It's all
really good at going. He can't compete with a man. I don't don't,
don't be stupid. That's all that, all that garbage, And I
think the people that were pushing that hurt her. They put a lot of
pressure in their girl. And so I happen to see her playing great golf
again. But there's a there's a distance difference. And when you say is
there an advantage and love, sure there is, of course there is.
If I've got an eight iron into the green, you've got feign and the
green were somewhat the same. I'm going to beat your brains up. It's
just because well it's just it's just science. I mean, it's just math.
It's an easier shot. So you're absolutely right when you say that does
mean something. But distances at everything, and that was proved they share.
When we were in the regional championship, I had a boy that could need
a three forty of fatigue, no doubt. But we played a real tight
little golf course where you can't hit driver. They just look the designer and
just love you to hit drivers, so you could not had out of bounds
and that's exactly what happened to me. I don't want only three drivers out
of bounds. So that's craziness. There is a point where you have to
look at what the what the hole is and then you have to say,
okay, this is what I must do. I'm going to take double and
triple and all that out of play. By doing this, that's managing yourself
on the golf course. That's what I try to teach by players. Sometimes
they listens and sometimes they don't. The distance isn't advantage to a point.
So now on the women's tour, we have an eleven year old who's making
headline. Yeah, isn't that crazy? What's wonderful? Actually, it's really
wonderful. Tell me what you know about her and what you've seen and what
your thoughts are about someone who can compete at that level at that age.
Well, you know I saw that she had one of the pitch and put
things or was one of the winners. Yeah, at Augusta, and it
turns herut and gets on the tour august In a qualifier for the US opening,
makes it for the ladies. It doesn't surprise me. Fair, I've
got a fifteen year old by the mayor June Jang that found my video.
I started her when she was a little past twelve, and recently she played
in a major event in it was called a silver Bell event, I think
in Phoenix somewhere, and she shot seventy four sixty four, seventy against twenty
six year olds. And just recently she played in the Golf Week magazine tournament.
The previous years she has sixty seven seventy one to win it, and
this year she shot seventy five with a triple part five which she tried to
go into when there's water on both sides, and she learned a good lesson.
But then she came back with sixty eight and she said, Coach,
I had airy green. She said, I missed so many plucks I could.
I had fifty nine today. And it wouldn't shock me if she said,
Coach, I shot fifty nine a day. That's how good these kids
are nowadays. What they're doing is what it used to take us ten years.
They're compressing that into a year because they're practicing every single day. They
got a wedge or a putter in their hand all the time. They're not
thinking about they're not thinking about music, para dos nothing. All they're thinking
about is how to get the ball in the hole. There's a mindset out
there with a lot of young kids that just love the sport. But it's
like what happened when the Beatles came out. Every mom and dad want to
give their kid a guitar to learn because they saw a chance for fame.
And I think that's what's happening. Young people are starting to really discover golf.
And you know, you're like a rock star, for God's sakes,
if you're really good in golf. Here here a start. You know,
we see the men's stir. Well, the same thing is going to happen
to women's. But the women's will never be as popular as men's because that's
just how life is. But but if you want to see quality golf,
lots of women play it's it's it's unbelievable. Uh. And and they're and
they're and they're getting longer. And when you read these stories about eleven year
olds making it's just great for golf, and women's golf especially, but more
importantly, it's great for juniors. For a kid, they see, my
god, an eleven year old make it. Mom, get me a wedge
by way said clubs. Uh, you know, we know that it takes
a lot of hard work and you have to be a special training of person
to get it all the way to the tour. But it's still this is
such a great sport. It's such a great sport for a kid. It's
a lifelong sport. Teaches us so many great lessons. And hey, every
now and then, out of a batch of kids, you get one that's
so special. And June is to me. I mean she's like, she's
like my daughter. I mean, I just adore her and she is such
a hard worker. Uh. I had a couple of big universities called I
can't I don't want to mention their names, but they're already looking at her
and she's a sophomore. It's fantastic. So it didn't surprise me. I
mean it did a little bit, but I didn't say, oh my god,
that's not possible, because it is possible when you when you go to
some of these ag gas, the events and some of the things that the
PGA does, and those those near the should be so thank for doing that,
and you see the talent gets out there. It's just it's mine it's
mine. Bomb man. I've got a seven year old and I'm teaching right
now, and I want to tell you something he got he's got corrected also,
and is anybody on tour? I mean it's when I say it's perfect,
it's perfect. And he beats them all out there, way farther than
a seven year old she did. And where's he What's he going to be
doing when he's fifteen or sixteen if he continues this and all he can think
about it he watches the golf channel. He doesn't watch SpongeBob. It's crazy,
you know, it's crazy, and I love it. I just love
it. So the fifteen year old, if I'm not mistaken, is it
June Jang Jane Jang, And she's on my video and the swing that he
had is tighter and better than it was then. It was pretty down good
bed because you, yeah, at the end of twenty thirteen, you sent
me a couple of video clips of her swing and I will definitely put those
up on the blog post with this show. But you also sent me the
video of the seven year old boy what's his name? Ivan Tran, Ivan
Tran, Okay, I'll put I'll put those up so people can see what
you're talking about, because you have interesting there's short, there's short videos are
real quick. It's just the kid swing. But yeah, you'll have to
do you just look at the swing. You say, holy macro, how
the heck did he do that? And in Iland's case, I can't take
credit for his swing because he watched the golf channel and and copied it.
Uh So when when his dad came to me and said, would you help
my son? And I haven't seen him hit the ball in the range because
every time he comes out there he draws a crowd. I said, I
said, you've done a great job of him. Said, he won't listen
to me anymore. I cracked up seventy years old ago. But the truth
is the dad doesn't play golf and the kid knows that. So I had
such I mean, I want to tell you something. I would pay to
give this kid lessons. And I don't charge I don't charge kids, but
I would pay to give this little kid lessons because it's it's just looking at
a phenomenon in the future. I mean, this kid's going to do something
in golf, is going to be crazy. And he puts his chips lack
a pro I mean, already he gets on the punting green and you'll see
all people putting. Everybody stops because they see him roll one after another twenty
foot or one right after another bag And I just sit there and just watch
the ball just keeps going in the hole. He thinks it's was supposed to
happen. Yeah, it's fabulous. Well so, I've always been fascinated by
young people who come up on the tour because it's it's golf is well beyond
physical skills, there's the metal aspect. There's the emotional aspect of dealing with
the pressure of a Sunday round. And you know, I'm thinking a seven
year old, he's going to bang it away. He doesn't even know or
understand what it means to have the pressure on, you know, with all
the eyes watching and got to make this putt. How is the metal side
for? I mean, these kids can hit balls like crazy all day long.
But put him on a golf course in competition, what happens then?
Oh? You know, I haven't played in a number of tournaments which he's
won or been in second place. Yeah, competing against seven year olds,
right of course, Yeah, of course, yeah, but but, but
this is the thing that I think that is happening like this, eleven years
old. Eleven year old, they see they can do it, they enjoy
doing it, and they love people watching them do it. So they don't
have the insecurities and the feelings why can't I beat this? They don't.
They don't even think that way. It's a totally different way of thinking.
And I think it's just the era we're in. You know, kids are
kids are our other shell really early because of television and whatever. I think,
I think back when you were a kid, things you did, and
what's what's happening today? Because of because of I don't think it's all good,
don't get me wrong, but because of Facebook and everything, everyone's more
involved in the social aspects. So people have a tendency to be a little
bit more. They're not so self conscious. And you know, I was
such a wallflower. I mean I remember going to a dance when I was
a sophomore, and I was I was literally stuck against the wall, afraid
to ask anybody to dance. That doesn't occur anymore. I mean, that
doesn't occur anymore because of the exposure that they have to everything so kids don't
have that fear that I think that we had because that's just how it was.
Well, they're in front of cameras a whole lot more than we ever
were. I mean, there's no pictures of me growing up. But every
young person I know, and I'm talking under ten is so comfortable in front
of a camera because there's been pictures being taken every few minutes. Yeah,
and this is you know, this period of time now is where people are
showing off a lot, show off the way they look when they try there.
It was conscious of all these things. So so I mean, I'm
not saying that there aren't a few kids that still walk around hung up on
this and hung up on that, but the majority are much more confident,
I know that than when I was a kid. Of course, I went
to parochial school and it was pretty it was pretty strict. Uh. But
these kids nowadays, I mean, the boys had come in my programs.
I mean, they're already they've had experiences in their life that I didn't have
until I was in my thirties. You know, uh, some good,
some bad, but they've just been exposed to a hell of a lot more
than I was. And so consequently, they think more adult. They just
they just they had They have more adult feelings in the sense of what they
think about themselves. And I can tell you I've been If I tell Ivan,
come on you, I want you to need to drive for my boys
golf team. He can't wait to show them that he hits it better than
them. I mean, he can't wait for me. About your methods the
swing for your short game, for pitching and chipping and not full swing,
how is that impacted by what your method is? Well, you know,
the chipping method has always been this, you playoff. If you're right handed,
you put the majority of your weight on your left side. So that
falls right back into what we're doing. And modern day chippers are less handsy.
They're more arms, shoulder weight left and a small rotation, uh just
and the rotation gets bigger for the for the longer the shot. But but
there is a rotation, so they keep the arms connected and it's still a
body movement, a post to just the arms. Not to say that you
can't do it with just the arms, but again, when you use it
arms and hands, you're bringing in the opportunity for the hands to overwork or
for you to decelerate your arms where you stay connected and you turn through it.
The club is moving along with the body, so there's no hit to
the ball kind of thing. You have to be on the left side for
sure, because you want the club to be coming down when it strikes the
golf ball. So that's part of it. It's not it's not difficult,
for sure. It's not difficult. So well, I think shipping go ahead.
I'm sorry I was just going to say. And then of course I
teach the fall run type of chipstroke. So so shipping where you're all on
the fringe and shortside of the grass. You know you're going to do that
with seven and eight six irons, you know, can you be using a
sandwich and those guys shots pitching when you're further back and heavier grass where the
club has to come up down but you're still on the left side. It's
just that's just more of a you know, that's just more of what I
say, a body swing though the real chipping or you set up to the
ball and you you take the heel of the of the club off the ground
so you put it up on a sole. And the reason you do this
because you want to get the shaft in the same position as your putter shaft,
so you get your eyes right down over the ball that you're just using
an arm armed you know, arm swing with a fly left wrist, very
similar to your puddy stroke. And that should be done around the green,
you know, put away your wedges around the green. You want to you
want to hit the ball in a release and roll to the hole. You
don't want to try to put the backspin and all that. It's just silliness.
But when you're pitching the ball from a distance you have thirty yards forty
yards, then you have to do use a miniature rotary motion just like you
do with the with the full swing. Real simple. Oh yeah, sure,
real simple. No, it really is. If for those for those
of you that have chipping problems or anything like that ever come to the desert,
but I'll get rid of them in five balls. I mean, I
promise you, I don't care if you if you scoop it right at the
bottom or anything. I have. I teach you some pee classes beginners,
and and I get a lot of these people have never touched the golfid in
their life, and in a very short period of time, everybody's got to
handle ahead of a ball at impact, and it looks it looks great,
but it's not hard to do. But if it's hard to do, if
you're trying to keep your wrists flat and your body still and your head still
and you're pushing your arms at ben it's really hard, then you scull them
across the green all day long. But that's not the action. It's it's
you have to set up properly and you have to understand what what the movement
is. But then once you get the movement, it's really simple. Oh
boy, do I want to see that. I'm bringing the video camera for
that one. Okay, anytime, this a really duck soup. This is
this is This is a simple part of the game. The only thing is
distance control. That's a hard part of like shipping and putting is yeah,
yeah, it's what twenty flip put You got to be able to hit it
twenty one feet twenty two feet. Yeah, But most of the time I
see the mistakes that happen for for chipping, is that people hit three or
four inches behind the ball and then well you get yeah, that's because they're
staying behind the ball. They're not moving through the ball number one, or
they're trying to they're trying to scoop under the wall, try to get under
the ball and make it go up. You hear people say they'll scull this,
so I didn't get under that one. Well that you don't get under
it. You're hitting, you're hitting. You have to hit down on it,
and the ball hits the face of the club. It slides up the
face and then goes up in the air. But you don't scoop the club
underneath doing shut it. I know that you go underneath like that as a
sandshot when you when you lay the club back. But people try to do
that. They feel like they have to help it up. And so in
scooping what what what to scoop? You have to You have to uncock your
wrist. Your left wrist gets really cocked and the blade goes up so that
that's that's the bana, you know, But it's easily fixed once people you
don't say, don't scoop your wrists. You just show them. Do you
show them a movement where they don't the risk, don't scoop, You explain
how the thing really works. And then and then it's really easy The problem
is is that a lot of teachers that teach say don't do this, well,
no, you see you scoop it or you did this, and and
so they're still fixated on that movement instead of getting them to do the movement
that that eliminates that. But really, honestly, if anybody wants to shift,
they can go on any on any website. There's so many guys out
there that that are saying exactly what I say, because it's not a secret.
And and and you know, keep in mind, the tour is constantly
looking for easy, the easiest way to do these things, not the hardest.
So if you copy Michaelson or those kinds of people, you'll see that
they have a process that they repeal over and over again. But why that's
that's where more strokes are lost. I think inside the thirty yard area,
then there's no question about it. Yeah, no question about it. Uh
I. One of the parts of my formula for the golf team is that,
uh you've got you've got You've got to be able to get it up
and down from fifty yards and end. You just got to be able to
do that if you want to, if you're serious about being competitive golfer,
you have to be able to do that. And it sounds really hard,
but it's really not because once you have emotion that is consistent and then you
just can dial in the rotation of your body. But when you do it
with your hands, now you know your nerve endings are at the end of
the fingers, and we all get nervous and we all get anxious, and
that never goes away, and hopefully never will, because that's a good thing.
Adrenaline is a good thing if you use it properly. But if you
set up to the ball properly, whether you're hitting the ball, chipping the
ball, whatever, and you not, your body dictates the distance the ball
is going to go by. It's by its rotation and that tempo. Well,
you can you can fine tune this thing really quick, opposed to trying
to time your hands how when they turn over, how fast they turn over,
and so forth, and those are the things that that the modern swing,
even though this is not really a modern swing, but it's it's a
modern way of teaching. You watch the tour now, you look at the
guys when we sat to the ball, you don't you don't see anybody way
behind the ball in the dress anymore. You know. There was a guy
but the named Jerry Hogan and said, I want you to stand the buck
above the ball, but not behind it. And that's a great statement.
And that's what the driver or anything else. Mmm. Interesting, You're gonna
have to come down and bring your wedge, a suitcase, the two person,
a wedge, a long weekend. Okay, the suitcase, toothbrush and
a wedge. Well, yeah, maybe maybe they either, so that can
show me the run up. Yes, I'll bring the pottery and we'll just
play the entire round with three clubs. How's that? Yeah, there you
go. Absolutely, that'll be interesting. It'd probably scored the same probably probably,
Oh, tony. Well, listen, I hope you have a full
recovery. I'm so sorry about your accident. And I know that I haven't
asked in a while. How old are you now? I'm seventy seven.
Oh my god, but I well, right now, when I had the
accident, I felled ninety seven. Yeah, I bet because you're all of
a sudden saying oh I'm falling because I'm a little bit. But what happened
to me was if if I was fifteen, I would have got the same
result. Unfortunately, because I actually the golf course, I wonder what will
happen if another member gets down there where I was, then tries to walk
up that hill and slips. The result is going to be somewhat because it
was just it shouldn't be that steep anywhere near the green. But that's another
story. I know a lot of people know how you're get to sue,
and I'm not a suing type, you know. Just I think I had
that plan for me to teach me patience because I get a little impatient.
My girlfriend is looking at me and nodding her head, so anyway, you
know, I have to look at it as it gave me some time to
stop working seven days a week, and I caught up on every TV show
that exists, for sure, But that's not something that's not something you want
to brag about. No, it's just behind me now. And like I
say, once I get to therapy, I'll be I'll be kicking and running
again just like I always do, just like you always do, and dragging
that team with you across the finish line ahead of everybody else. Hopefully we
can keep that up, baby amazing, all right? Tony, Well,
it was great to talk to you again. Thank you so much for giving
us your time. The Golf Smarter community loves you, will always love you.
And again, the book and the DVD, The Loss Fundamental by Tony
Manzoni is right here on our website. And I you know, I like
to say this and it's it's hard, but you're not going to find it
anywhere else. Really, you could look everywhere on the web, you're only
going to find it here and so and that's why you're getting such a you
know, the response from people all over the world. So well, I
just want to thank everyone listening and leave them this thought and please continue supporting
Fred. You are the voice of golf as far as I'm concerned, and
I think you're doing a wonderful, wonderful thing for a lot of people.