WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.200 --> 00:00:09.560 Hey folks, welcome back to another episode of JavaScript Jabber. This week, 2 00:00:09.560 --> 00:00:13.919 on our panel, we have Dan Shapier. Hello from a warm and sunny 3 00:00:13.960 --> 00:00:19.600 Tel Aviv. I'm Charles max Wood from a cold and rainy Utah from top 4 00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:22.839 end Devs. And we have a special guest this week that is Bruce Larson. 5 00:00:23.559 --> 00:00:26.039 How did you do it by the show? Yeah, thank you. 6 00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:31.719 I'm here from Birmingham, UK, and today we're celebrating our annual my word, 7 00:00:31.760 --> 00:00:36.759 it's not raining day. I was gonna ask how often that happens, 8 00:00:36.759 --> 00:00:40.520 but you said annual, so I get the picture. You want to just 9 00:00:40.600 --> 00:00:43.119 remind people who you are. I'm pretty sure we've had you on the show 10 00:00:43.159 --> 00:00:46.640 before, but you know, I don't remember what we talked about last time, 11 00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:51.399 and so for sure, yes, I'm an old colleague of Dan some 12 00:00:51.560 --> 00:00:57.679 when we both worked at Wicks, which is quite a while ago now I 13 00:00:57.719 --> 00:01:04.040 have been. I was in development in the late eighties and then dropped out 14 00:01:04.040 --> 00:01:07.239 to travel the world and stuff. Got into the World Wide Web because I 15 00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:12.959 figured it looked quite cool when I was a primary school teacher in Thailand, 16 00:01:14.079 --> 00:01:22.200 and then came back and got into web tech, so started mostly hassling people 17 00:01:22.359 --> 00:01:26.680 about specifications, you know, trying to build things and saying this spec is 18 00:01:26.719 --> 00:01:30.799 incomprehensible, and eventually people got tired of me, so they had changed a 19 00:01:30.840 --> 00:01:38.840 spec and accessibility, you know, making sure that your stuff works for people 20 00:01:38.879 --> 00:01:48.400 with disabilities because it's important. And also performance. I'm not a performance nerd, 21 00:01:48.439 --> 00:01:56.159 and I don't know every next step to implement crud Rum, Rocks, 22 00:01:56.280 --> 00:02:00.159 Crooks stuff that Dan knows. But having spent and a great deal of my 23 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:07.519 time in Asia working and traveling and living, I know how it feels to 24 00:02:07.560 --> 00:02:13.599 have a crappy fifty dollars Android device on a terribly constrained network and watch the 25 00:02:14.439 --> 00:02:19.759 loading spinner of Doom just circle around when you're just trying to find out if 26 00:02:19.759 --> 00:02:23.560 you've missed your train or if it should be on the next platform. So 27 00:02:23.800 --> 00:02:27.520 these are things that matter to me. And I was here last time. 28 00:02:27.560 --> 00:02:31.639 I guess about twelve months ago, but who knows. I'm close to one 29 00:02:31.719 --> 00:02:37.400 hundred and tempest fugit, so it could have been three weeks ago or ten 30 00:02:37.479 --> 00:02:43.159 years ago. But I was here talking about some of the advocacy that I've 31 00:02:43.199 --> 00:02:49.159 been doing, along with a dozen other developers across the globe. Just normal 32 00:02:49.199 --> 00:02:57.960 developers to try to make sure there's better browser competition on the mobile duopoly I 33 00:02:58.240 --> 00:03:05.080 Android and iOS. With a group called Open Web Advocacy, we've had quite 34 00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:12.879 a lot of success, or we have contributed to the success of getting legislation 35 00:03:13.159 --> 00:03:23.280 passed in Australia, most recently Japan, most notably the European Union basically prohibiting 36 00:03:24.280 --> 00:03:34.960 Apple from only allowing Safari or its WebKit view based browsers on iOS. The 37 00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:43.919 regulators have finally agreed with US and other interested co lobbying partners. If you 38 00:03:44.120 --> 00:03:49.639 like that, it's actually holding the development of the web back if people can't 39 00:03:49.759 --> 00:03:57.240 use fire full fat Firefox with Gecko inside, or full fat Chrome Slash Vivaldi 40 00:03:57.360 --> 00:04:03.879 Slash Opera Slash Brave, Slash Edge with Chromium inside. And it's been really 41 00:04:03.960 --> 00:04:14.479 really eye opening watching Apple squirm around and make make themselves look pretty silly actually 42 00:04:14.800 --> 00:04:25.560 trying to evade regulation. It's been very noticeable that the traditionally highly highly pro 43 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:32.240 Apple press have become more and more frustrated or less willing to simply parrot Apple's 44 00:04:33.639 --> 00:04:38.920 party line if you will. So for example, here in the EU, 45 00:04:39.120 --> 00:04:42.519 we here in the EU, I'm in the UK, so no longer in 46 00:04:42.560 --> 00:04:46.800 the EU. But in the EU when the Digital Markets Act came into force, 47 00:04:47.639 --> 00:04:53.759 Apple tried to evade regulation by saying, well, you can't regulate Safari 48 00:04:53.839 --> 00:04:58.879 because Safari on iOS is different from Safari on macOS, which is different from 49 00:04:59.319 --> 00:05:06.199 Safari on iPad ours. And the EU decline to uh, decline to believe 50 00:05:06.319 --> 00:05:11.639 them, pointing out that they're in their own marketing materials. Apple says, 51 00:05:12.079 --> 00:05:19.360 three devices, one Safari. Oh but but before before we go there, 52 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:24.879 and before we dive so deeply into the technicalities, I'd like to pull us 53 00:05:24.959 --> 00:05:29.680 back a little bit because I want to relate something that I encounter very often 54 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:34.439 with with actual web developers. So obviously it's it's even you know, quote 55 00:05:34.519 --> 00:05:40.000 unquote worse when you're talking to lay people. And it's the fact that when 56 00:05:40.040 --> 00:05:46.160 I say to web developers that you only have Safari on iOS, many times 57 00:05:46.199 --> 00:05:49.480 I hear a response like, what do you mean? That's absolutely not true. 58 00:05:49.560 --> 00:05:55.680 I'm using Chrome on my iOS device, So what are you talking about? 59 00:05:56.639 --> 00:06:01.000 So maybe you can clarify why it is that we insist on the fact 60 00:06:01.040 --> 00:06:06.920 that it's actually Safari and not really grong. Sure, Dan, Yeah, 61 00:06:06.959 --> 00:06:14.519 Well, the clarification of why it is You would have to ask Tim Cook 62 00:06:14.759 --> 00:06:19.959 about that. The reason we know it is is because the App Store rules 63 00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:27.079 Apples app Store rules say any app, and of course a browser is an 64 00:06:27.160 --> 00:06:33.839 app. Any app that can browse the web must use Apple's WebKit view, 65 00:06:34.680 --> 00:06:42.120 So you can't even use your own fork of webkits or a newer version of 66 00:06:42.199 --> 00:06:49.639 WebKit. It's the WebKit view the Apple ships inside the I think that every 67 00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:57.040 browser must use as a rendering engine. And similarly, anything that can execute 68 00:06:57.160 --> 00:07:02.279 javascripts in an app must use the analogous webkits. I forget its name, 69 00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:10.560 but thank you. Yes, Apple itself doesn't have to do this, but 70 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.319 it requires it of anybody who ships an app that they want to put in 71 00:07:15.360 --> 00:07:20.800 the App Store. Why this should be? Apple will tell you it's for 72 00:07:20.839 --> 00:07:29.160 your comfort and security, I would say, and this is purely speculation because 73 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:33.079 Tim Cook hasn't sent me a Christmas card for like years now. Oh what 74 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:39.439 a jerk. I know, I haven't had a Valentine's cards from the Safari 75 00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:45.519 team this year. But I would say it's very simple. If you could 76 00:07:45.639 --> 00:07:51.519 have Gecko or Blink, which is inside Chromium, inside your app, then 77 00:07:51.519 --> 00:07:57.319 it would have access to a lot more device, APIs, et cetera, 78 00:07:58.199 --> 00:08:03.000 then you can access and therefore you would be able to ship a web app 79 00:08:03.399 --> 00:08:13.879 that was feature equal with a native single platform app that goes in the iOS 80 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:18.199 app Store, for which Apple can extract a thirty percent rent. Simple as 81 00:08:18.199 --> 00:08:24.199 that, it seems to me. And if I were you know, if 82 00:08:24.199 --> 00:08:31.440 I were tim Apple and richer than Creases but still demanding more money, I 83 00:08:31.480 --> 00:08:35.720 can see the logic in it. But the trouble is, as it's really, 84 00:08:35.759 --> 00:08:43.759 it's really inhibiting development of the cutting edge web apps, because if you 85 00:08:43.759 --> 00:08:50.159 could just ship one progressive web app that worked on Android, worked on Chrome 86 00:08:50.240 --> 00:08:54.600 OS, worked on mac Os Desktop, worked on Windows, worked on Linux, 87 00:08:54.679 --> 00:09:01.039 and worked on iOS, it would reduce development time a great deal. 88 00:09:01.759 --> 00:09:03.679 You know, it might not be quicker to develop, but it's a lot 89 00:09:03.759 --> 00:09:11.879 quicker to ship out upgrades. You're not having to muck about with variant code 90 00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:16.080 bases and have separate testing teams. But of course that would mean that it 91 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:22.320 would be much more difficult for Apple to extract about thirty And of course, 92 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:28.639 the vision, the their their funny ar goggle things are not flying off the 93 00:09:28.679 --> 00:09:37.519 shelves. iPhone sales are down. I don't know how much they have are 94 00:09:37.559 --> 00:09:43.759 in how much they have to grovel to their shareholders, but they have bills 95 00:09:43.799 --> 00:09:50.080 to pay, and makes sense they would be unwilling to relinquish the billions of 96 00:09:50.159 --> 00:09:54.879 dollars they get every year from this thirty percent rent extraction that they charge for 97 00:09:54.960 --> 00:10:01.080 people to put an app in the app store. So mentioned progressive web apps. 98 00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:07.240 We've had people on our show to talk about this, obviously. Alex 99 00:10:07.360 --> 00:10:13.200 Russell, for example, I think you've never Yeah, you deny any knowledge, 100 00:10:13.440 --> 00:10:18.080 as I recall, he actually he and his deer and his partner I 101 00:10:18.120 --> 00:10:22.440 forget your name from the Francis exactly. I think they both coined the term 102 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:28.399 together. Maybe it's worthwhile explaining what progressive web apps are in case, because 103 00:10:28.600 --> 00:10:33.679 they are, you know, thanks to Apple, they're not taking off as 104 00:10:33.720 --> 00:10:37.080 they should have, So maybe it's worthwhile to remind people what they actually are 105 00:10:37.120 --> 00:10:41.519 and what they're missing out on. For sure. Yeah, a progressive web 106 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:46.039 app it's a term. It's an umbrella term. It's like you know, 107 00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:54.039 ajax. It's a useful marketing term to describe a suite of different technologies working 108 00:10:54.039 --> 00:11:01.879 together. Years ago, Opera and Mozilla and Google got together and we all 109 00:11:01.919 --> 00:11:11.080 had similar similar ways of being able to use web technologies to make what looked 110 00:11:11.080 --> 00:11:18.120 to be a desktop app, but it was chromeless and installable on desktop, 111 00:11:18.240 --> 00:11:24.080 but they were called widgets. A feller called Marcus Casseros, who worked for 112 00:11:24.080 --> 00:11:28.720 Opera at the time now works at Apple, specified them in the W three 113 00:11:28.840 --> 00:11:31.919 C, but they didn't really take off simply because there weren't that many device 114 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.559 APIs they could hook into. Just a comment though you met, you said 115 00:11:37.639 --> 00:11:41.039 Chrome less, just to emphasize that it's not about not being the Chrome browser. 116 00:11:43.200 --> 00:11:46.919 You. Yeah, you just get a square box like a WebView effectively. 117 00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:50.240 Yeah, you don't have so when you're talking about Chrome, you're talking 118 00:11:50.240 --> 00:11:54.759 about like the search bar or the four bar, yeah, all that stuff. 119 00:11:54.840 --> 00:11:58.879 Okay, yeah, yeah, we're just talking like a window effectively, 120 00:11:58.919 --> 00:12:03.360 like an electron app or a web view. And that's a good way to 121 00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:05.919 put it. Yeah. Yeah. And then devices, we got more and 122 00:12:05.960 --> 00:12:09.519 more device APIs. Gr Location was the first, and you know, they've 123 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:16.240 got loads of them now. Some are controversial, like web USB, Some 124 00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:22.639 are not controversial, like the Accelerometers project. FUGU I think is the project 125 00:12:22.639 --> 00:12:28.559 that brought a lot of these APIs to the forefront. It did although I 126 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:31.080 want to give a shout out to Firefox OS, which pioneered a lot of 127 00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:37.159 them. They aren't necessarily now standardizing the format that Firefox OS did them, 128 00:12:37.200 --> 00:12:43.639 but Firefox at Firefox OS do a lot of the work on Lamented Firefox will 129 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:50.360 still exist and going great guns in India and under the name of Chios. 130 00:12:50.519 --> 00:12:54.240 Yeah, I think it's the second biggest operating mobile operating system in India. 131 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:01.120 But anyway, I digress. So a progressive web app is a actually a 132 00:13:01.159 --> 00:13:05.960 website plus plus it is a webpage just made of htmlc SS, javascripts, 133 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:13.080 SVG. It has a manifest file which gives it a long name, a 134 00:13:13.120 --> 00:13:16.720 short name that would show you know if you installed it on your home screen, 135 00:13:16.879 --> 00:13:24.000 various different icons you know what obviously iOS, Android, the late Lamented 136 00:13:24.039 --> 00:13:30.360 Windows Phone have they have different icon sizes and formats. And then with a 137 00:13:30.399 --> 00:13:37.080 service worker, you can basically have a web app a website that when a 138 00:13:37.159 --> 00:13:43.399 PWA a where browser goes to, the browser can say hey, there's a 139 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.519 manifest there's a service worker, and it can say to the user do you 140 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:50.639 want to install this to your home screen? The user goes yep, and 141 00:13:50.679 --> 00:13:56.120 then it becomes you know, a nice circular icon on your home screen that 142 00:13:56.200 --> 00:14:01.720 you can tickle into life with a magic called twitch of your digit. Just 143 00:14:01.840 --> 00:14:07.080 like any other app, it fires up full screen, it can work offline 144 00:14:07.120 --> 00:14:11.799 with a correctly written service worker, and to all intents and purposes, it's 145 00:14:11.799 --> 00:14:24.639 in this indistinguishable from a single platform Android iOS app. But of course Apple 146 00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:31.320 don't really like that because there's no way to monetize it. If Bruce Lawson 147 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:37.000 dot co dot UK wanted to have a PWA and Dan went there in his 148 00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:41.240 Android device and it would his device would say I wouldn't do any work. 149 00:14:41.279 --> 00:14:43.840 His device would go, hey, this is installable. Do you want to 150 00:14:43.840 --> 00:14:50.440 install it? He can. There's no app store, gatekeeper intermediary there. 151 00:14:52.559 --> 00:15:00.279 Apple would argue that that's bad because something's being installed onto your device. They 152 00:15:00.360 --> 00:15:05.120 haven't scanned it for security, they haven't scanned it for viruses, they haven't 153 00:15:05.159 --> 00:15:11.879 scanned it to make sure it doesn't contravene. Whichever crackpot puritan wave of moral 154 00:15:11.960 --> 00:15:18.799 panic is sweeping Coupertino at this very moment. I would counter that and say 155 00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:28.320 the web has existed for twenty five years. Browsers are really really damn good 156 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:37.240 at sandboxing. In fact in the I think it was in something that Apple 157 00:15:37.360 --> 00:15:41.759 submitted to the UK Competition of Markets Authority, whom we've also been briefing. 158 00:15:43.360 --> 00:15:52.679 Apple admitted that browsers have a sandbox quote an order of magnitude more secure than 159 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:58.399 that of the App Store, and we've seen at this very moment there are 160 00:15:58.279 --> 00:16:07.279 sanctions busting Russian bank apps in the app Store. Their curation is not so 161 00:16:07.440 --> 00:16:11.840 great. I would argue that there are way too many identical fart apps in 162 00:16:11.919 --> 00:16:18.679 the App Store. I don't know. I mean, I'm an English guy. 163 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:25.639 So far I am currently fantastic. I have teenagers and it's funny. 164 00:16:26.320 --> 00:16:30.559 It is funny, but I don't think you need more than five hundred million 165 00:16:30.600 --> 00:16:34.519 of them, or however many there are. I suppose I'm saying that I 166 00:16:34.559 --> 00:16:40.720 don't. I personally don't buy Apples arguments that the world ohsen thirty percent of 167 00:16:40.759 --> 00:16:48.399 the cost price of an app for their fantastic extra security and curation. I'm 168 00:16:48.399 --> 00:16:55.000 a grown up. Web Browsers are brilliant and have been brilliant for ages a 169 00:16:55.519 --> 00:17:00.399 sandboxing tabs from each other, the os away from rogue websites, because there's 170 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:07.480 been rogue websites since since tim Bernersley rode a stegosaurus across the Earth. So 171 00:17:08.880 --> 00:17:15.839 if people want to do this, I'm comfortable with it. However, the 172 00:17:15.160 --> 00:17:19.960 men in Coopertino and graysuits, they know better than me or you or anybody 173 00:17:19.960 --> 00:17:25.039 else in the world, and the prohibit I just wanted to mention that from 174 00:17:25.039 --> 00:17:32.799 my perspective, the big three features the progressive web apps ideally provide that make 175 00:17:33.200 --> 00:17:38.079 the most significant difference are the fact that a that as you mentioned, you 176 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:42.559 can it automatically can add an icon to the home screen. I mean, 177 00:17:42.640 --> 00:17:47.920 you can add icon to the home screen effectively for any web page, but 178 00:17:48.039 --> 00:17:55.519 it's a very manual and somewhat convoluted process and most users, certainly my mother 179 00:17:56.160 --> 00:18:00.440 doesn't know how to do it, so having it automatically suggests it makes all 180 00:18:00.440 --> 00:18:03.680 the difference in the world. The other one is, as you mentioned, 181 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:08.480 is the fact that it's chromeless, that it covers the entire screen. That's 182 00:18:08.680 --> 00:18:15.039 really important when you're trying to create an actual app like experience. And the 183 00:18:15.119 --> 00:18:22.000 final one is not push notifications. It would you know, like without the 184 00:18:22.039 --> 00:18:26.279 ability to have push notifications. That's like a deal breaker for a lot of 185 00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:33.240 organizations that want to have an app like presence on a mobile device. There 186 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:36.480 are obviously other features as well, but those are the big three from my 187 00:18:36.599 --> 00:18:45.519 perspective, and technically they're totally doable. Google have done them on the Android 188 00:18:45.680 --> 00:18:48.480 phone. I mean, you know, they work, their progressive web apps 189 00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:56.440 work on Android. Apple has always managed to break at least one of these 190 00:18:56.519 --> 00:19:00.359 features, Like it's sort of like a sort of militia compliance in a sense. 191 00:19:02.279 --> 00:19:06.559 They kind of work, and then they stop working, and then they 192 00:19:07.640 --> 00:19:11.319 work again, but some other one that used to work suddenly stops working. 193 00:19:11.960 --> 00:19:15.200 So it's it's you can't really seem to get all three of them to properly 194 00:19:15.279 --> 00:19:22.680 work on the iPhone. This is correct, and the weird well, the 195 00:19:22.759 --> 00:19:27.000 sad thing is is that Apple have been getting much better with this. The 196 00:19:27.039 --> 00:19:32.920 WebKit team, who do a great job, and I friends in the WebKit 197 00:19:33.000 --> 00:19:37.039 team, and I cannot believe for an instant that anybody works in WebKit thinks 198 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:44.839 I don't want my browser to be the best in the world. But even 199 00:19:44.960 --> 00:19:48.240 you two gentlemen at the dizzy and pinnacle of your careers, you know, 200 00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:56.839 we've all had managers that we've had to take orders from. But recently Apple 201 00:19:56.039 --> 00:20:03.079 implemented web push it's not per effect. But you know, none of we 202 00:20:03.200 --> 00:20:07.240 three have ever had a bug, but there are developers who occasionally have written 203 00:20:07.279 --> 00:20:14.039 bugs and corrected them later. That's normal in software developments. The Marcos Cacera 204 00:20:14.119 --> 00:20:17.359 so I mentioned earlier, who used to it for Opera, then at Firefox. 205 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.400 Now he's at Apple, and he implemented the badging API. That's like 206 00:20:22.440 --> 00:20:26.599 the little red blob that you'd see if you had a progressive where bat male 207 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.480 client. The way you can badge it to say there are you know, 208 00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:36.440 X new notifications or x new emails. This is a UI thing that people 209 00:20:37.039 --> 00:20:42.079 like in single platform apps, and it came to the web and then earlier 210 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:49.640 this year Apple just killed progressive where back functionality across the EU just killed it, 211 00:20:49.720 --> 00:20:59.480 just took it away, which caused considerable outrage. And again I can't 212 00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:03.359 speak for them, but it's pretty easy to see that. It was about 213 00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:11.559 ten days before the Digital Markets Act was due to be enforced. It came 214 00:21:11.599 --> 00:21:17.599 into force, it came into law, but obviously you give people time to 215 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:23.319 ramp up to it, so they were given a grace period. And the 216 00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:33.519 Digital Markets Act says that you cannot self preference by giving your own stuff better 217 00:21:34.279 --> 00:21:42.039 access than a competitors. So I can imagine maker, Yes, if you're 218 00:21:42.079 --> 00:21:48.039 a platform maker of over a certain size and you have to u's like four 219 00:21:48.079 --> 00:21:53.440 hundred million euros a year x thousand users. So I can imagine Bob Suit, 220 00:21:53.519 --> 00:21:56.680 as I like to call him in Coopertino, sitting there and thinking, 221 00:21:57.279 --> 00:22:04.559 okay, so we're going to have to let other browsers do progressive web apps 222 00:22:04.599 --> 00:22:11.039 because Safari can. Well, what happens if the day before this comes into 223 00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:15.759 force, we completely killed progressive web apps, even from our own products, 224 00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:22.039 because then we're not self referencing, which if you are Bob Suit, that 225 00:22:22.160 --> 00:22:30.519 probably makes great sense. But luckily in Owa Open Web Advocacy, we somebody 226 00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:34.519 noticed that this was just didn't exist anymore in a beta. People asked, 227 00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:44.119 and the Safari bug trackers, the forums, you know, have you deliberately 228 00:22:44.200 --> 00:22:52.279 broken pways on the beta? And there was silence. So we organized basically 229 00:22:52.440 --> 00:23:00.680 a campaign of developers and business owners across the EU to email the people who 230 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:04.960 are in charge of enforcing the Digital Markets Act to say, you know, 231 00:23:06.920 --> 00:23:11.400 in ten days time, the business, the progressive web app that my business 232 00:23:11.680 --> 00:23:19.640 makes and depends upon, is going to break irrevocably and completely, and this 233 00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:27.680 will be the business effect. We only had like a week and bless and 234 00:23:27.839 --> 00:23:33.920 bless everybody who did it. Hundreds of people wrote to the EU. No 235 00:23:33.119 --> 00:23:41.000 there was there were businesses. Little progressive web apps would tell people if a 236 00:23:41.119 --> 00:23:47.400 kindergarten was going to shut down early for any reason and alert people that was 237 00:23:47.440 --> 00:23:55.960 going to break. There were small community things that would giving each other oncology 238 00:23:56.279 --> 00:24:00.839 advice and support. That was going to break. A friend of mine runs 239 00:24:03.160 --> 00:24:11.839 heavily heavily privacy focused note taking progressive where bap that nothing you do ever leaves 240 00:24:11.359 --> 00:24:15.720 your device, and nothing stored an eye cloud and nothing goes out. It's 241 00:24:15.759 --> 00:24:22.319 all on your device, and that was heavily used by EU journalists reporting behind 242 00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:26.519 the on the front lines of the Ukraine War. And this was going to 243 00:24:26.519 --> 00:24:30.799 break in ten days. There was no way of telling these people because they 244 00:24:30.839 --> 00:24:34.680 were out of you know, it wouldn't be safe to be connecting to Twitter 245 00:24:34.759 --> 00:24:38.519 and announcing your location, so there was no way to tell these people. 246 00:24:40.640 --> 00:24:45.880 For Pete's sake, save your data because this is going to be just completely 247 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.519 kiboshed. In a week. Hundreds of people wrote to the EU and the 248 00:24:49.559 --> 00:24:56.319 EU who knows what they said to Apple, but Apple backtracked. So now 249 00:24:56.319 --> 00:25:00.720 in the EU progressive where baps still exist, but at the moment moment they 250 00:25:00.759 --> 00:25:07.680 can only use the WebKit engine, which is obviously not even in malicious compliance 251 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:12.920 with the Act, that is contravening the Act. So the EU opened an 252 00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:21.359 investigation. And you know, it's a massive change that's been requested from Apple. 253 00:25:21.440 --> 00:25:25.240 And I've been in software since since since Dan, since you were in 254 00:25:25.319 --> 00:25:30.079 short trousers, I've been working in software. Have to say viewers that before 255 00:25:30.119 --> 00:25:34.400 we started, he got up and closed the door. And still occasionally I 256 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:41.680 still occasionally wear short trousers to the consternation of my kids. So well, 257 00:25:41.720 --> 00:25:45.440 you were talking about teaching primary school in Thailand in the late eighties, and 258 00:25:45.519 --> 00:25:52.599 I was in primary school in the late eighties. So anyway, but I've 259 00:25:52.599 --> 00:25:56.359 been in soft forever and I know, I know that changing a massive system, 260 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.440 even when you've had to I mean, they only had six months for 261 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:06.960 more grace period. But Apple must have known two years ago when the DMA 262 00:26:07.400 --> 00:26:11.440 was announced that it was going to be considered to be a primary gatekeeper. 263 00:26:12.000 --> 00:26:18.200 But even so, I can understand that you can't do everything in two years. 264 00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:22.000 And I'm sure I can't speak for the EU. I've spoken to them 265 00:26:22.039 --> 00:26:26.359 many times, as of Apple, as of lots of other advocacy organizations. 266 00:26:26.400 --> 00:26:34.240 That's not a secret. But I am certain that the EU don't want court 267 00:26:34.279 --> 00:26:40.720 cases and fights. What they want is a more competitive landscape. But if 268 00:26:40.720 --> 00:26:45.920 that means saying to Apple, look okay for six months more, you can 269 00:26:45.000 --> 00:26:49.319 do what you do in as long as you promised to get it right, 270 00:26:49.559 --> 00:26:56.640 rather than rushing through a half asked fix or just nuking stuff like you did 271 00:26:56.680 --> 00:27:00.359 with the PWAs. I get that. I want a better environment. I 272 00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:06.160 don't want Apple to go down in flames. I want Apple to go Actually, 273 00:27:06.400 --> 00:27:12.000 yeah, it's better for everybody if Safari competes on its own, merits 274 00:27:12.039 --> 00:27:17.039 everybody. So the thing that I've there are a couple of things, and 275 00:27:18.559 --> 00:27:22.319 I'm trying to figure out how to, like, how to state some of 276 00:27:22.359 --> 00:27:29.000 this stuff because on the one hand, I definitely feel the you know, 277 00:27:29.079 --> 00:27:33.640 because I have an iPhone, right, I have an iPhone and right, 278 00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:38.920 But and so I feel this right because yeah, you know, ultimately I 279 00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:45.640 use Brave Browser. But Brave Browser is more or less a reskinned Safari browser, 280 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:48.119 right, it's using WebKit, it's using all of those things. If 281 00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:53.240 I'm building some other application lately, I've been so I primarily do Ruby on 282 00:27:53.319 --> 00:27:56.440 Rails and then I do a lot of front end stuff and so that's where 283 00:27:56.440 --> 00:28:02.000 I get into JavaScript and web. This relevant to most of our listeners here, 284 00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:06.559 right, But one thing that I've gotten into is the team that base 285 00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:10.720 Camp provides ter Er Native, right, which gives kind of a clean, 286 00:28:11.400 --> 00:28:15.759 chromeless wrapper around your Ruby on Rails app or other web app. And so 287 00:28:15.839 --> 00:28:21.079 you can essentially build a PWA, but your native app is your web app, 288 00:28:21.480 --> 00:28:25.200 yeah, right. And so you know, I feel this because there 289 00:28:25.200 --> 00:28:27.759 are some problems that I'd really like to solve with a PWA or with specific 290 00:28:27.799 --> 00:28:33.720 features that go into a PWA, and when they don't do what you need 291 00:28:33.759 --> 00:28:37.759 them to do, that that's really sucks. But on the other end, 292 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:45.720 I am not a big fan of government intervention, right, And so I'm 293 00:28:45.720 --> 00:28:49.000 looking at it and I'm going, okay, well, Apple's a private company 294 00:28:49.799 --> 00:28:56.920 and they you know, when you buy the iPhone, you're kind of signing 295 00:28:56.000 --> 00:29:02.160 up for whatever they do or don't doos will do or not do whatever it 296 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:04.599 wants. You know, there's a walled garden here, right, because you 297 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:08.119 have to submit apps to the app store and get them approved, and it 298 00:29:08.119 --> 00:29:11.440 may or may not play nicely with some of this other stuff. And so 299 00:29:11.559 --> 00:29:18.319 as much as I want Apple to be doing this stuff, I am a 300 00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:21.759 little bit allergic to the government telling them they have to do this stuff. 301 00:29:21.759 --> 00:29:26.920 Does that make sense? It does if I can say something about this, 302 00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:33.960 chuck. I think what a lot of people miss, and unfortunately it's often 303 00:29:33.000 --> 00:29:38.400 people in the US especially, is the fact that if you want, what 304 00:29:38.440 --> 00:29:45.680 you actually want is nuts is a free market, and your concern about government 305 00:29:45.759 --> 00:29:51.079 intervention is the fact that they are potentially getting in the way of a free 306 00:29:51.119 --> 00:29:56.720 market. The problem is that when you have a monopoly, you don't have 307 00:29:56.759 --> 00:30:00.799 a free market. And you might say, well, Apple is only like 308 00:30:02.000 --> 00:30:04.759 half the market, They're not a monopoly. I can always decide to purchase 309 00:30:04.799 --> 00:30:11.039 an Android device instead. But the reality is that they are a monopoly because 310 00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:19.680 I can't not support IOSS as a company that you know, that delivers some 311 00:30:19.720 --> 00:30:26.319 sort of a service. If I'm so for the web, the mobile web 312 00:30:26.759 --> 00:30:33.480 constitutes something between seventeen and eighty percent of web browsing. Yes, and if 313 00:30:33.000 --> 00:30:44.359 if my web app doesn't work on iOS. Then I'm basically out of half 314 00:30:44.440 --> 00:30:52.240 that market. That's not something that any company could deal with that. Look 315 00:30:52.279 --> 00:30:56.759 at what happened with what's that game manufacture, whether the ones that create Fortnite 316 00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:06.440 all I can't remember. I don't play games. Remember they had that big 317 00:31:06.519 --> 00:31:11.519 row with Apple over or the over the app store rules. They're also epic 318 00:31:11.559 --> 00:31:18.640 games, I think, and and they're like the biggest game manufacturer in the 319 00:31:18.680 --> 00:31:22.799 world, and and and it was and they're basically losing this fight in a 320 00:31:22.799 --> 00:31:27.400 lot of ways. So you know, what chance does the little guy have. 321 00:31:29.319 --> 00:31:33.319 It's it's it's kind of like think about the days of the railroads. 322 00:31:33.640 --> 00:31:38.680 It's like you have to have some sort of regulation here or or the little 323 00:31:38.759 --> 00:31:45.480 farmers get run out of their lands. And and this is literally what it 324 00:31:45.680 --> 00:31:52.920 is. It's it's Apple taking advantage of the monopoly that it's been able to 325 00:31:52.960 --> 00:31:56.720 create. Now again, you know, I'm not saying that Apple should not 326 00:31:56.799 --> 00:32:02.960 be a successful company or that they you know, they invaded, invented to 327 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.200 a great extent, invented this space. Good on them. It's that the 328 00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:14.640 fact that there needs to be some sort of a mechanism that protects the free 329 00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:22.279 market because in a totally unregulated capitalistic environment. You don't end up in a 330 00:32:22.319 --> 00:32:29.519 free market, you end up in a series of monopolies controlling everything. What 331 00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:35.480 dam said, I mean, I'm I'm as I'm perhaps not as allergic to 332 00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:43.400 government as many American people are, because unfortunately, when you were a colony, 333 00:32:43.440 --> 00:32:47.440 we didn't govern you terribly well, terribly sorry about that, but I 334 00:32:47.480 --> 00:32:51.400 am It's okay. I'm happy with where we ended up in a lot of 335 00:32:51.400 --> 00:32:55.960 ways, so it's fine. But I am allergic to government intervention in tech 336 00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:02.359 because I work a lot in accessibility, and I've seen attempts by government to 337 00:33:02.680 --> 00:33:07.799 regulate, and of necessity, regulation is law, and it takes a long 338 00:33:07.880 --> 00:33:14.000 time to be passed and come into force, and by which point you might 339 00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:19.880 have frozen into law a technique which is two years older and much worse than 340 00:33:19.880 --> 00:33:28.359 the technique now. But which is why the EU and the UK laws or 341 00:33:28.400 --> 00:33:36.680 the regulators, everything they write is about opening up competition, preventing people from 342 00:33:36.720 --> 00:33:39.319 self preferencing. It doesn't mention, you know, it doesn't say you must 343 00:33:39.880 --> 00:33:45.160 you must allow this api. I mean, I like the fact that now 344 00:33:45.200 --> 00:33:51.039 in the EU everything must every new device must come with USBC, so you 345 00:33:51.079 --> 00:33:57.319 don't have hundreds of different proprietary charges. But the problem is what happens when 346 00:33:57.400 --> 00:34:00.920 USB, D E, and F come about which better? But the legislation 347 00:34:01.279 --> 00:34:07.639 only allows USBC. I get the problem, Chuck, But certainly this legislation 348 00:34:08.559 --> 00:34:15.400 is designed to promote a level playing field. It's not. I don't want 349 00:34:15.400 --> 00:34:22.679 to penalize Apple. I'm talking to you with on a hugely expensive MacBook Pro 350 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:28.440 that costs considerably more than my first car ever did, and you'll prize it 351 00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.360 out of my cold dead hands. But if I had to give up one 352 00:34:32.400 --> 00:34:38.159 thing and it was the MacBook Pro or the open Web, you can have 353 00:34:38.239 --> 00:34:44.519 my Matbook Pro. I really want the open Web to win. And I 354 00:34:44.559 --> 00:34:50.840 think anyway, your argument ended in was it the fifties or the sixties when 355 00:34:52.519 --> 00:34:59.320 the AT and T was broken up? And you know it became obvious and 356 00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:06.159 nobody could own the telephone network and be the sole supplier of telephones, right, 357 00:35:06.360 --> 00:35:09.199 it was an abuse and it was distorting the free market. It wasn't 358 00:35:09.840 --> 00:35:16.159 because every company of necessity tends to monopoly. Every company wants to raise its 359 00:35:16.159 --> 00:35:22.360 own and the logical end of raising your market share is owning one hundred percent 360 00:35:22.360 --> 00:35:28.079 of the market. So I mean, I would love to fix capitalism, 361 00:35:28.119 --> 00:35:31.119 but I don't think I have enough years left in me to do that. 362 00:35:31.280 --> 00:35:38.119 But certainly certainly helping what we've been doing at WA is helping the CMA and 363 00:35:38.199 --> 00:35:49.679 the EU and the Japanese and the Australians understand the competition ramifications of what are 364 00:35:49.800 --> 00:35:54.400 pretty pretty errudite esoteric things like you know, well, if they don't allow 365 00:35:54.480 --> 00:36:01.800 this API. And I will say I expected when I first met these people 366 00:36:01.920 --> 00:36:07.039 in you know, who are lawyers and economists. I expected lots of elderly 367 00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:13.639 men in dusty wigs, going what is a computer? But actually it hasn't 368 00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:20.920 been that at all. I wish my grasp of economics and law were anything 369 00:36:21.360 --> 00:36:25.079 like as quick as their grasp has been of the technical issues we've shown them. 370 00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.960 I mean, we gave them just recently, we gave them, I 371 00:36:29.000 --> 00:36:34.920 know, seventy page report on in app browsers. This isn't Apple bashing at 372 00:36:34.920 --> 00:36:40.239 all. This is battling all in app browsers. And I'll tell you what 373 00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:46.559 my browsers are the tool of the devil that if I had been allowed to 374 00:36:46.599 --> 00:36:52.199 write the executive summary down that is pretty much the synopsis that I would have 375 00:36:52.239 --> 00:36:54.760 written, but I wasn't allowed it. I'm not allowed to turn up at 376 00:36:54.800 --> 00:37:00.599 the meetings and look beautiful, right well, but yeah, yeah, yeah, 377 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:02.840 I just want to jump in on some of this because to a certain 378 00:37:04.119 --> 00:37:07.400 extent, I agree with you guys, right, you know, monopolies are 379 00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:13.880 anti capitalists. You know, we also see crony capitalism where you know, 380 00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:17.840 some of these tools get used on behalf of companies then kick back money to 381 00:37:17.960 --> 00:37:24.000 the politicians that did them the favors. Some of these tools are open to 382 00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:29.199 that kind of abuse. And so when it comes right down to it, 383 00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:35.800 I mean, if if it truly is anti monopolistic, there's a long word 384 00:37:35.840 --> 00:37:39.960 for you, you know. I I'm happy to support some of that. 385 00:37:40.599 --> 00:37:46.039 I get a little bit concerned because, in case folks haven't listened to the 386 00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:50.840 show and haven't heard me. I try and keep the politics out of this, 387 00:37:50.960 --> 00:37:53.440 but I am very involved, especially in the state of Utah, with 388 00:37:53.440 --> 00:38:00.159 with our political system and our politicians, and I'm actually the vice chair of 389 00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:05.000 the Utah County Republican Party, so I'm in it all the time. But 390 00:38:06.960 --> 00:38:10.559 my concerns mostly come down to because right, what you're talking about, I 391 00:38:10.920 --> 00:38:14.360 agree with right, it's like, hey, let's open this up, let's 392 00:38:14.440 --> 00:38:19.599 let everybody you know play in the space. Right. But the concern is 393 00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.239 is are there unintended consequences? Are there things that are going to come out 394 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:27.280 of this that we don't want? And then the other concern that I have, 395 00:38:27.639 --> 00:38:31.079 And it's hard to know those things right, and so it's kind of 396 00:38:31.519 --> 00:38:37.000 not an argument against this, but at the same time, I want to 397 00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.280 make sure that as much as we can, we can foresee what may come 398 00:38:39.320 --> 00:38:43.760 out of this. And then the other thing is is if we're creating the 399 00:38:43.760 --> 00:38:46.360 tools for government to do these kinds of things, right, pass these kinds 400 00:38:46.360 --> 00:38:52.480 of regulations and then enforce them. As I've said, most of my allergy 401 00:38:52.559 --> 00:38:58.039 to government intervention comes from they find some other way to turn this into something 402 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:01.639 else that we don't want. And so when we're looking at this right, 403 00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:06.800 we have to be very careful and say, okay, look, we're allowing 404 00:39:06.840 --> 00:39:12.639 you to regulate these things under these very narrow areas so that you know, 405 00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:16.440 we can open the market so that you don't have a monopoly without allowing them 406 00:39:16.480 --> 00:39:21.800 to be abused on behalf of Well, my buddy's the CEO of such and 407 00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:25.760 such a company, and so you know, there are competitors of monopoly now 408 00:39:25.800 --> 00:39:30.199 too, and so now I'm going to treat them like I'm treating this other 409 00:39:30.239 --> 00:39:34.400 company. And to your other point, though, yeah, I don't feel 410 00:39:34.400 --> 00:39:38.400 like anybody's necessarily trying to pick on Apple per se or try to hurt them. 411 00:39:39.199 --> 00:39:45.320 But anyway, I mean, I'd like to say one thing about that, 412 00:39:45.119 --> 00:39:49.320 or a few things about that. First of all, from my experience, 413 00:39:49.480 --> 00:39:54.320 like I don't, you know, I dislike politicians significantly. It's not 414 00:39:55.320 --> 00:40:02.039 it's not a big leap given that I'm in Israel. Uh. And but 415 00:40:04.320 --> 00:40:09.920 we've seen that tech companies are and tech company CEOs are usually a lot smarter, 416 00:40:10.199 --> 00:40:16.320 more efficient, and wield more power than your average politician. And that's 417 00:40:16.360 --> 00:40:22.719 also a concern. And think about let's take a different example, like think 418 00:40:22.760 --> 00:40:30.599 what would happen if Google, in their search engine decided too, you know, 419 00:40:30.119 --> 00:40:37.320 to uh, you know, basically remove your company or your organization out 420 00:40:37.360 --> 00:40:42.159 of the search results. The impact that they that would have they a certain 421 00:40:42.199 --> 00:40:45.800 degree, and they do that to a certain degree, and and and and 422 00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:49.920 the fact that they can is more scary than almost anything else. You know, 423 00:40:50.199 --> 00:40:58.000 think about the fact that the ranking algorithm for TikTok is controlled by the 424 00:40:58.119 --> 00:41:04.239 Chinese Communist Party. Like I would, I don't. I'm not saying that 425 00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:07.800 they decide on the rank of any video, but they decide the ranks of 426 00:41:07.840 --> 00:41:15.599 the videos that they specifically like or dislike. So they certainly have their finger 427 00:41:15.880 --> 00:41:27.519 on the what's it called the log Yeah that the recommendations and yeah, yeah, 428 00:41:27.679 --> 00:41:32.920 so so and and think of the impact that that has on the opinions 429 00:41:32.920 --> 00:41:37.039 of people. Now in this particular case that we're speaking about in the context 430 00:41:37.119 --> 00:41:45.480 of Apple, that's seems to be purely about revenue and not about you know, 431 00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:51.960 ideologies or or stuff like that. But still, uh, you know, 432 00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:59.079 they are creating a situation that is effectively killing the open web, and 433 00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:04.360 as and as people who are proponents of the open web, that's a problem. 434 00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.639 And it seems like, you know, I would love for there to 435 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:15.440 be a different mechanism than government intervention to fix this, but I'm not seeing 436 00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:22.840 any such mechanism available. And we have been appealing to Apple for a decade, 437 00:42:23.480 --> 00:42:29.800 you know, appealing to their better nature. I personally know I don't 438 00:42:29.840 --> 00:42:35.400 want Some people hate Apple, some people hate Google. I'm too old for 439 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:44.000 hating I don't want anybody to be taken down in flames. I don't want 440 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:53.559 Apple to involve themselves and USKS in a decade long series of malicious compliance until 441 00:42:53.599 --> 00:43:01.039 they eventually go oh all right then, Because of course, from Monopolis to 442 00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:08.960 any delay is profit, so that's just a given they will have to do 443 00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:17.760 this stuff. But they have every fiscal every fiscal incentive is towards dragging it 444 00:43:17.880 --> 00:43:24.639 out, with mucking about with take going to court about procedure, as they've 445 00:43:24.639 --> 00:43:30.480 done in the UK recently. That's a given. But what I really want, 446 00:43:30.880 --> 00:43:34.039 it's for Apple to do the right thing. You know, people have 447 00:43:34.119 --> 00:43:37.639 accused me of oh, well, you just want the world to be Chromium, 448 00:43:38.039 --> 00:43:43.320 Like no, that's absolutely not what I want, And in fact I 449 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:50.840 love Firefox, but it's it's been losing now for years and years I really 450 00:43:50.960 --> 00:43:59.159 want. What I really want is Safari to run on iOS, iPad os 451 00:43:59.199 --> 00:44:04.119 if that's a different thing, Android, Windows, Linux, Chrome Book as 452 00:44:04.119 --> 00:44:07.639 well as mac Os. Because WebKit runs on all those things, Safari used 453 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:12.360 to be on Windows. I would love to see Safari running all of those 454 00:44:12.400 --> 00:44:16.920 things, giving Chromium a run for its money, being a competitor to Chrome. 455 00:44:17.039 --> 00:44:23.239 Because there's only one organization that has brand loyalty, a marketing budget, 456 00:44:25.440 --> 00:44:32.239 technical nouse, worldwide prominence to be able to compete against Google, and that 457 00:44:32.360 --> 00:44:39.239 is Apple. So I really want Apple to set my friends and colleagues in 458 00:44:39.280 --> 00:44:45.480 the WebKit team free to compete so we could see fifty you know, if 459 00:44:45.000 --> 00:44:52.639 it were forty percent Safari, forty percent Chrome, ten ten percent Firefox and 460 00:44:52.800 --> 00:44:59.000 Brave and Vivaldian Opera much rather it was equal shares each. But I'm also 461 00:44:59.480 --> 00:45:07.079 I'm a real list I would much rather it be a better balance, So 462 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:13.679 this would allow that. I also know many of the WebKit team personally, 463 00:45:13.719 --> 00:45:16.239 and they're some of the brightest people I've ever met. I'm sure that they're 464 00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:23.920 frustrated. Yeah, I just I guess My point is is that because I 465 00:45:23.920 --> 00:45:29.360 think I agree with you guys, especially in this case, but we have 466 00:45:29.400 --> 00:45:32.599 to be careful where we apply the hammer and how big a hammer we use. 467 00:45:34.679 --> 00:45:37.639 I completely agree, and luckily, I mean, I guess it's the 468 00:45:37.639 --> 00:45:42.880 same in the States as well, But the EU is an entity, but 469 00:45:43.519 --> 00:45:50.079 twenty seven different twenty six countries now get to vote on stuff, So in 470 00:45:50.119 --> 00:45:52.280 the same way as the States, you've got lots of different states of competing 471 00:45:54.039 --> 00:46:02.800 cultures and concerns and imperatives have in the EU. It's it's cumbersome, but 472 00:46:02.840 --> 00:46:10.199 it means there's checks and balance is built in. And yeah, you have 473 00:46:10.320 --> 00:46:14.800 everybody thinking about it and coming out of from their own angle and it makes 474 00:46:14.800 --> 00:46:17.800 it better. Yes. Yeah. I would also argue that in the power 475 00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:23.320 dynamics, you know, the one trillion dollar company probably has more power than 476 00:46:23.360 --> 00:46:34.920 a couple of farts arguing about this thing in somewhere with three parts with three 477 00:46:34.960 --> 00:46:37.480 farts down. Are we back to that fart oup or the fifty thousand fart 478 00:46:37.519 --> 00:46:43.039 apps? Yeah, but what you say about chrony capitalism was quite interesting. 479 00:46:43.199 --> 00:46:52.480 Us. We have to remember as well that Google paid Apple twenty billion to 480 00:46:52.639 --> 00:47:00.679 be the search provider on iOS. So the idea that these are to chronyism 481 00:47:00.760 --> 00:47:08.760 so much as you see them supporting campaigns of chromism. I didn't say chromyism. 482 00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:15.639 I'm just people. People try and paint it as a sort of battle 483 00:47:15.679 --> 00:47:22.440 between these two behemoths like alien predator Godsill is the other one. It's a 484 00:47:22.519 --> 00:47:27.239 much more nuanced than that. To going back to what Dan said earlier, 485 00:47:29.760 --> 00:47:37.159 less less people what what normal person cares about regulation? But in the EU, 486 00:47:37.400 --> 00:47:42.880 the people who are designated as gatekeepers. It's not only Apple and Google. 487 00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:49.599 Whichever company runs TikTok by dancers it, they are a gatekeeper. Whatever 488 00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:59.639 Facebook's called today is a gatekeeper. It is an attempt to stop any of 489 00:47:59.679 --> 00:48:07.440 them major digital players, distorting the market to allow smaller companies to compete fairly. 490 00:48:09.000 --> 00:48:15.719 I think that's a good thing. It can't be absolutely perfect from me. 491 00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:17.760 We're kind of getting toward the end of our time and I just want 492 00:48:17.800 --> 00:48:22.840 to just nail things down. So with open web advocacy, is that the 493 00:48:22.880 --> 00:48:30.760 mission then to open up the web space or competition or is it these particular 494 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.199 fights or how does that work? We want to be able to make web 495 00:48:35.239 --> 00:48:43.599 apps that will work cross device because the web is a mature platform. It 496 00:48:43.719 --> 00:48:47.320 works everywhere now, it should work everywhere now, but it's been prevented from 497 00:48:47.360 --> 00:48:52.800 kneeling everywhere now. Yeah, So we want to be able to make web 498 00:48:52.840 --> 00:48:55.840 apps and that's because we developers, you know, none of us are. 499 00:48:58.000 --> 00:49:02.599 I know far more about regulation than I ever wanted ever to know. You 500 00:49:02.639 --> 00:49:09.719 know, a couple of us had a company in China and couldn't use couldn't 501 00:49:09.800 --> 00:49:19.440 use iPads because one particular API is only allowed on a native app. It's 502 00:49:19.519 --> 00:49:23.000 not allowed from Safari, but it could use Android, and that was a 503 00:49:23.039 --> 00:49:30.400 problem. I got tired of making a PWA and having to wrap it up 504 00:49:30.440 --> 00:49:34.880 in capacitor or something like that to go into the app store. It was 505 00:49:35.039 --> 00:49:42.280 just an unnecessary extra step, which meant periodically I had to download forty eight 506 00:49:42.360 --> 00:49:46.360 exabytes of something called x code in order to cajole it to do something, 507 00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:57.079 which was Yeah, other people they want to wear apps because they work for 508 00:49:57.159 --> 00:50:02.039 smaller companies that don't have a colossal budget, you know, to to a 509 00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:07.800 Google's or Microsoft, to a Netflix two, even to a Wix. It's 510 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:15.119 it's not that expensive to have a team who test dios, a team who 511 00:50:15.199 --> 00:50:20.760 tests Android, maybe a React native team, and then other people to walk 512 00:50:20.800 --> 00:50:23.920 around with buckets to collect those people's tears every time they have to use React 513 00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:37.119 Native. But to a smaller company, that's prohibitively costly. Yeah, Dan 514 00:50:37.159 --> 00:50:39.079 and Ice where we first met, we were we used to have to empty 515 00:50:39.119 --> 00:50:44.639 the buckets out over the over the wall into the port. Yeah, they 516 00:50:44.719 --> 00:50:50.400 were, they were. They were well compensated for their tears though. Yeah. 517 00:50:50.480 --> 00:50:54.440 Yeah, and that's another thing to smaller companies hiring loads of people who 518 00:50:54.440 --> 00:50:59.920 are react native debs is a lot more expensive than hiring people who are common 519 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:06.440 and htmol cs and javas great, and also you don't have to have you 520 00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:09.039 know, you don't have to pay for ninety nine bucks a year for a 521 00:51:09.159 --> 00:51:15.960 developer license. You don't have to have a Mac and an iOS device and 522 00:51:15.000 --> 00:51:20.599 an iPad for testing if you're a web developer. Most of us do. 523 00:51:21.159 --> 00:51:30.000 But it's not required simply to put put put pixels on a screen. So 524 00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:36.840 gotcha? So what do Because it's you know, all the things you're talking 525 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:40.800 about, right with having things work everywhere or mostly everywhere, and you know, 526 00:51:42.880 --> 00:51:46.119 be able to move forward without worrying about having to be compatible with the 527 00:51:46.239 --> 00:51:52.079 lack of things in a Safari or similar what do we do? Like so 528 00:51:52.280 --> 00:51:57.920 me, you know, developer dude, work in my day job. Right, 529 00:51:58.559 --> 00:52:01.880 what can I do then to make this work? Or what can my 530 00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:07.639 company do? Right? I suppose in the States what you could do is 531 00:52:08.400 --> 00:52:15.239 perhaps rain back your personal version towards government regulation, because I know you've got 532 00:52:15.239 --> 00:52:21.039 that DOJ versus Apple thing coming up. I don't know the details of that, 533 00:52:21.119 --> 00:52:29.159 because American regulation is it's too much for my tiny brain withes and you 534 00:52:29.239 --> 00:52:35.599 don't know if anybody follows all of it. It's basically to educate yourself. 535 00:52:35.639 --> 00:52:40.880 You know, there's a lot of people for whom Apple are still a sort 536 00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:50.000 of shining beacon of all things good that that's been and many people are, 537 00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:52.159 but you'll also find many people aren't. And said, you know, there's 538 00:52:52.280 --> 00:52:55.400 even web developers. A couple of months ago, somebody said to me, 539 00:52:55.440 --> 00:53:00.840 I had no idea that Chrome and iOS was not the same as Chrome everywhere 540 00:53:00.880 --> 00:53:05.760 else. It's like, you're a web developer, dude, right, So 541 00:53:05.840 --> 00:53:08.599 you just tell people, you know, make them aware that there are other 542 00:53:08.679 --> 00:53:20.199 things in the world then iOS and Android native apps. So is there a 543 00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:25.400 way people can actually actively support the Web back Advocacy group? You could, 544 00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:31.440 Yes, you can retweet or retoot our stuff or even re linked in our 545 00:53:31.519 --> 00:53:38.559 stuff. A couple we're back to the fart apps. I'm British. A 546 00:53:38.599 --> 00:53:45.400 couple of the people on the team are devoted full time on this, so 547 00:53:45.639 --> 00:53:51.039 you could if you would, if you want to help pay their salaries. 548 00:53:51.320 --> 00:53:59.559 I'm not salaried. I do this because it's a mission. And also these 549 00:53:59.559 --> 00:54:04.360 guys couldn't work because it was COVID time, and so they spent many hours 550 00:54:04.360 --> 00:54:08.400 writing the reports and drawing the graphs, et cetera. You can support them, 551 00:54:08.400 --> 00:54:14.639 but basically what you can do is just support people who are talking about 552 00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:22.719 this. And if you live in a country like Brazil, Korea, India, 553 00:54:22.840 --> 00:54:30.440 Israel, places where you have regulators that could be doing something about this, 554 00:54:30.599 --> 00:54:37.840 because you're a big market, whether like Israeli or a rich developed economy 555 00:54:37.960 --> 00:54:45.320 or somewhere like Brazil you are a rich developed economy but also massive, you 556 00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:51.639 know, ask what your regulators are doing about this, and write a blog 557 00:54:51.639 --> 00:54:55.039 post. I guess. I guess this kind of you know, writing a 558 00:54:55.079 --> 00:54:59.840 blog post and you know, being informed as to who's working on it. 559 00:55:00.880 --> 00:55:04.039 You said also to educate yourself, and so I was wondering, you know, 560 00:55:04.079 --> 00:55:07.400 Open Web Advocacy Group. You sounded like you were putting out reports and 561 00:55:07.440 --> 00:55:10.400 statistics and things like that. So where do people find that stuff? And 562 00:55:10.440 --> 00:55:15.159 are there other organizations that are putting out good information too so that I can 563 00:55:15.239 --> 00:55:22.719 get important There's other organizations, yeah, completely unaffiliated from US, as Tim 564 00:55:22.760 --> 00:55:30.239 Sweeney from Epic Games, who writes a lot of stuff about this, DHH 565 00:55:30.400 --> 00:55:36.199 from thirty seven Signals, whatever, they're called I disagree with him about mostly 566 00:55:36.239 --> 00:55:39.880 everything, but on this stuff, I don't disagree with him at all. 567 00:55:42.280 --> 00:55:45.280 But again, you know, hopefully that shows people that this is this is 568 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:51.199 fundamentally a technical issue that we're having to fight through regulators because there's no other 569 00:55:51.280 --> 00:55:58.440 venue. It isn't a socialists versus free marketing, isn't a communist versus libertarian 570 00:55:58.679 --> 00:56:05.719 thing. It's it's a technological issue that individually, we developers haven't been able 571 00:56:05.719 --> 00:56:12.960 to persuade the bad guys at Google and Apple and previously Microsoft to amend their 572 00:56:12.960 --> 00:56:19.280 ways. And the only people who are bigger are governments, even if in 573 00:56:19.320 --> 00:56:22.559 many ways they're not bigger than a two trillion dollar company. You know, 574 00:56:22.800 --> 00:56:27.039 it shouldn't have come to this. It's a shame that it has come to 575 00:56:27.079 --> 00:56:32.679 this, but it has, and we are where we are and just spreading 576 00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:37.280 the word around, you know, amplifying our voices, helping out where you 577 00:56:37.360 --> 00:56:42.119 can. There'll be other fights in the future, like the ten days to 578 00:56:42.199 --> 00:56:47.039 a Pways Die, when we basically had a team of volunteers just running keeping 579 00:56:47.119 --> 00:56:52.960 the website up, designing and coding up a website, and record time sifting 580 00:56:53.079 --> 00:57:00.840 through submissions that came to our form and forwarding them onto the EU, making 581 00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:05.760 sure we didn't forward stuff on with confidential information. For example, you know 582 00:57:06.000 --> 00:57:08.480 you can drop in and help us out from time to time, but or 583 00:57:08.519 --> 00:57:15.639 you can help pay those two guys salaries. Just cross your fingers and hope 584 00:57:15.679 --> 00:57:20.519 we win. If you can't do anything else, just moral supports good too. 585 00:57:20.880 --> 00:57:23.719 Yeah, is there a website for the group? Openweb Advocacy dot org 586 00:57:24.079 --> 00:57:30.440 Open hyphen Web hyphen Advocacy dot org. Yes, it's a mouthful, but 587 00:57:30.519 --> 00:57:35.880 we invented it before we really thought through any social media strategy. It literally 588 00:57:36.039 --> 00:57:40.840 was two guys in Australia emailed a mutual friend saying, do we know anybody 589 00:57:40.880 --> 00:57:46.400 in the UK who'd be prepared to go to the UK regulator to make them 590 00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:53.719 aware about p WA's because the UK were thinking android versus iOS and we wanted 591 00:57:53.760 --> 00:58:00.000 to say, well, actually there's this third way that works everywhere. And 592 00:58:00.159 --> 00:58:04.679 the mutual introduced me to these two guys. I introduced them to a friend 593 00:58:04.679 --> 00:58:08.159 of Michael Stewart, who's a drinking friend down the pub. We've worked together 594 00:58:08.199 --> 00:58:13.280 on and off for fifteen years. We set up a little group. It's 595 00:58:13.320 --> 00:58:20.800 grown organically everybody is just a developer. There's no most of us have never 596 00:58:20.840 --> 00:58:23.440 met in real life. We're just people who want to make sure that the 597 00:58:23.440 --> 00:58:30.559 web has a future across all devices for everybody. A so Uncle Timbow himself 598 00:58:30.599 --> 00:58:35.000 said this is for everyone. Awesome, all right, Well, let's go 599 00:58:35.000 --> 00:58:38.960 ahead and do our picks. Yeah, hopefully people are getting some ideas on 600 00:58:39.039 --> 00:58:43.199 how they can help out with this, and yeah, I mean these are 601 00:58:43.239 --> 00:58:46.880 changes I'd like to see. And anyway, Dan, do you want to 602 00:58:46.880 --> 00:58:53.119 start us off with our picks? Yes? Why not? Not a lot 603 00:58:53.159 --> 00:58:59.039 of picks this time, a few technical ones. So it turns out that 604 00:58:59.079 --> 00:59:02.480 there were two as of the time of this recording. Oh yeah, you 605 00:59:02.480 --> 00:59:06.880 know, there's actually one thing which isn't exactly a pick, but it's a 606 00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:10.719 bit of news. Today was my first day at a new company that I 607 00:59:10.800 --> 00:59:16.400 work at. Last week i left the Next Insurance after two and a half 608 00:59:16.519 --> 00:59:22.119 years there. I only have good things to say about them, but it 609 00:59:22.159 --> 00:59:29.440 was time for me and now I've joined as the principal engineer at a company 610 00:59:29.480 --> 00:59:36.159 called SiZ Sense. It's a company that does data intelligence and data analytics and 611 00:59:36.159 --> 00:59:40.440 stuff like that, creating all sorts of tools and services they are working on 612 00:59:40.679 --> 00:59:47.519 providing their tools s decay that can be embedded within others services and solutions and 613 00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:52.880 whatnot. And I'm to be a principal engineer on that project. So I'm 614 00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:55.199 very excited about that. And like I said, today was my first day 615 00:59:57.000 --> 01:00:00.320 I was there at the office and it was great. So that's kind of 616 01:00:00.320 --> 01:00:05.440 a pick. Gratulations. Congratu. You can't believe you've been it next for 617 01:00:05.480 --> 01:00:07.159 two and a half years. It feels like you only just joined. Wow, 618 01:00:07.199 --> 01:00:12.000 man, we're getting old. Yes, I this Next Next was last 619 01:00:15.880 --> 01:00:20.880 Yeah, that's true. Anyway, So the to the few technical picks as 620 01:00:20.920 --> 01:00:25.239 well the first one. So, there were a couple of conferences last week 621 01:00:25.519 --> 01:00:30.599 as the time of the time of this recording. There was Google Io, 622 01:00:30.960 --> 01:00:37.039 which is Google's big technical conference, and also more or less the same time, 623 01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:45.159 there was React, where Bruce's favorite framework shows off its new developments and 624 01:00:45.199 --> 01:00:52.639 capabilities. Uh and I'm kidding, but there were a couple of interesting things 625 01:00:52.679 --> 01:00:57.559 that were released and I would like to mention two of them. So over 626 01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:04.880 at Google io are my friend Barry Pollard presented at Google i OWE for the 627 01:01:05.239 --> 01:01:07.760 for the first time we have had him on the guests on the show. 628 01:01:07.840 --> 01:01:14.119 He's a great guy, and he spoke about what's it called. It's called. 629 01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:22.480 The name escapes me right now. It's it's it's a thing called speculation 630 01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:29.199 rules. It's a way too, it's a way to specify within the HTML 631 01:01:29.239 --> 01:01:37.960 itself which other pages and resources should be prefetched, preloaded, and even pre 632 01:01:38.039 --> 01:01:44.800 rendered. Now some of these capabilities that it's sort of existed before as resource 633 01:01:44.880 --> 01:01:51.559 since, but this mechanism is much more sophisticated and generally all around better. 634 01:01:52.440 --> 01:01:58.519 And what it enables our websites that appear to load instantly, especially if you're 635 01:01:58.519 --> 01:02:05.599 building a multipage application, you can achieve a performance when navigating between pages that's 636 01:02:05.679 --> 01:02:12.119 on par and potentially even better than single page applications, which is really great. 637 01:02:12.480 --> 01:02:17.880 And when you couple that with other technologies like view transitions and stuff like 638 01:02:17.920 --> 01:02:24.639 that, I think we're going to be seeing in MPa renaissance potentially it'll be 639 01:02:24.719 --> 01:02:30.880 interesting to see. So that would be my first pick, and so as 640 01:02:30.880 --> 01:02:34.679 I said, the link to that talk would be my first pick. My 641 01:02:35.280 --> 01:02:39.280 second pick is a talk from react Conf. Well actually it's a talk about 642 01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:46.519 the technology presented at react Conf. It's from our friend Jack Harrington used to 643 01:02:46.519 --> 01:02:52.079 be a host on React Roundup. He has this channel on YouTube called Blue 644 01:02:52.079 --> 01:02:59.000 Collar Coder where he presents a lot of technologies web technologies and gets into the 645 01:02:59.079 --> 01:03:04.960 nitty gritty. And he did a video and going in depth on the new 646 01:03:05.679 --> 01:03:15.400 React compiler. And this is an interesting technology that basically kind of optimizes your 647 01:03:15.440 --> 01:03:22.800 React code. So you write React code as most developers do, which is 648 01:03:22.880 --> 01:03:29.920 kind of inefficient, and then that mechanism kind of turns it into fine tuned, 649 01:03:30.000 --> 01:03:36.440 highly efficient React code. At least that's the goal. And I will 650 01:03:36.480 --> 01:03:40.719 add that I'm trying to get the relevant React people to come on the show 651 01:03:40.760 --> 01:03:45.480 to talk about that technology because I think it's going to be interesting. So 652 01:03:45.840 --> 01:03:52.840 Jack's video is my second pick for today, and my final pick is because 653 01:03:52.920 --> 01:03:58.880 Bruce, at the very beginning of this show, you mentioned the fact that 654 01:03:58.920 --> 01:04:04.440 you used to work on standards, and whenever I think about standards, I've 655 01:04:04.480 --> 01:04:13.880 always reminded of the design notes section in the HTML spec, the actual spec 656 01:04:13.960 --> 01:04:19.400 for HTML itself. And I'll read this part because it's worth reading out every 657 01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:25.000 once in a while, and it goes as following. It must be admitted 658 01:04:25.199 --> 01:04:30.840 that many aspects of HTML appeared at first glance to be nonsensical and inconsistent. 659 01:04:31.719 --> 01:04:38.599 And I stress this is from the HTML spec. HTML it's supporting domainpis, 660 01:04:39.079 --> 01:04:43.360 as well as many of its supporting technologies, have been developed over a period 661 01:04:43.400 --> 01:04:47.719 of several decades by a wide variety of people with different priorities, who in 662 01:04:47.800 --> 01:04:55.599 many cases did not know of each other's existence. Features have thus arisen from 663 01:04:55.679 --> 01:05:01.519 many sources and have not always been designed in an especially insistent ways. Furthermore, 664 01:05:01.639 --> 01:05:08.199 because of the unique characteristics of the web, implementation, bugs have often 665 01:05:08.280 --> 01:05:14.800 become de facto and now the viewers standards as content is often unintentionally written in 666 01:05:14.880 --> 01:05:18.679 ways that rely on them before they can be fixed. Despite all this, 667 01:05:19.000 --> 01:05:24.760 efforts have been made to adhere to certain design goals. These are described in 668 01:05:24.840 --> 01:05:30.880 the next few subsections. So this is such a great piece. This is 669 01:05:30.920 --> 01:05:34.519 such a great piece of content to put in the actual htmlspec and I really 670 01:05:34.559 --> 01:05:41.000 love it. And this candidness and forthrightness about the state of things as they 671 01:05:41.000 --> 01:05:45.559 are, which doesn't in any way decrease the fact that the web itself is 672 01:05:45.599 --> 01:05:51.760 one of the greatest achievements of the human race in my opinion. And today 673 01:05:53.840 --> 01:05:57.599 I'm going to butt in as a guest and make a pick because by the 674 01:05:57.639 --> 01:06:00.960 way, man, but a way fought again. I see one of the 675 01:06:00.960 --> 01:06:04.960 things that Dan, one of those design principles that that passage alludes to is 676 01:06:05.760 --> 01:06:10.840 when you're writing the specs, it's called the priority of constituencies, and it 677 01:06:10.920 --> 01:06:23.119 says you always considered users over web authors, over implementers, over theoretical purity. 678 01:06:23.559 --> 01:06:27.480 So in other words, the people who count most to the end users, 679 01:06:27.880 --> 01:06:31.280 then the next most important constituency are developers, and then the next most 680 01:06:31.280 --> 01:06:39.440 constituency are browser manufacturers, and only then it's theoretical purity. And my picks 681 01:06:39.719 --> 01:06:45.320 are Web Standards picks and the frontiest of front end guys. Dan mentioned them 682 01:06:45.320 --> 01:06:51.880 earlier. Multi page view transitions are coming soon to shipping Chrome. This is 683 01:06:53.880 --> 01:06:59.480 for multi page application or what we old timers call a website with lots of 684 01:06:59.480 --> 01:07:03.360 different news rls. You'll be able to transition between them without the page going 685 01:07:03.400 --> 01:07:11.199 white and refreshing. And again, it's just bringing a ux feature from the 686 01:07:11.239 --> 01:07:15.880 world of apps to the web without all the nonsense of having to try to 687 01:07:15.920 --> 01:07:21.920 do spas. It's going to be a game changer. We have actually had 688 01:07:23.039 --> 01:07:27.480 Non Rosenthal, who's the guy who's working on this spec as a guest on 689 01:07:27.519 --> 01:07:31.079 this show talking exactly about view transitions. I don't remember the number of the 690 01:07:31.119 --> 01:07:34.599 episode, but we should probably link to it. Yeah, love me a 691 01:07:34.599 --> 01:07:41.079 bit of Noam Rosenthal. He was at West when we on. Does this 692 01:07:41.159 --> 01:07:46.599 go beyond sort of the HTMX or turbo approach. It has nothing to do 693 01:07:46.639 --> 01:07:51.440 with that. It's basically you can specify in CSS in HTML you don't, 694 01:07:51.639 --> 01:07:55.599 well, you need potentially a little bit of job is good, but ideally 695 01:07:55.719 --> 01:08:01.239 just HTML and CSS, you can create an inmated transitions between pages when you're 696 01:08:01.320 --> 01:08:09.079 navigating. Oh interesting, So so think think about app experiences when when you're 697 01:08:10.559 --> 01:08:15.000 clicking something and like you know, like a Netflix type experience or an Amazon 698 01:08:15.039 --> 01:08:21.039 type experience when you're clicking let's say something in Netflix and that thing expands like 699 01:08:21.159 --> 01:08:27.239 you're going into a specific movie and that item expands to cover so you have 700 01:08:27.600 --> 01:08:30.079 so it's not like you're you you don't see that transition. It's kind of 701 01:08:30.119 --> 01:08:36.000 animates from one page to the next. And it's a it's a game changer 702 01:08:36.079 --> 01:08:42.159 because somebody who comes with a browser that doesn't yet support view transitions, it 703 01:08:42.359 --> 01:08:46.359 just works as before. Nothing breaks. It's nobody gets a worse experience than 704 01:08:46.399 --> 01:08:51.680 they do now, and gradually everybody gets a better one. There's also newly 705 01:08:51.720 --> 01:08:58.199 come to Baseline, which is a new initiative. I don't know whose initiative 706 01:08:58.239 --> 01:09:01.439 it was, but you see all over the place on MDN. Baseline is 707 01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:08.079 a category of stuff that as a jobbing web developer you can expect to be 708 01:09:08.159 --> 01:09:12.159 supported, so it's sort of your If it's in baseline, I can use 709 01:09:12.199 --> 01:09:15.079 it. That's what I tell people I want to mentor. Newly in Baseline 710 01:09:15.159 --> 01:09:24.479 is the has pseudo class, which allows you to say, if this form 711 01:09:25.079 --> 01:09:30.600 has an input that is invalid, put a red line around the whole form, 712 01:09:30.720 --> 01:09:34.840 or something. A parent selector that's everywhere now. It's much more than 713 01:09:34.840 --> 01:09:38.399 a parent selector. In fact, I just wrote a blog post an hour 714 01:09:38.479 --> 01:09:45.479 before we joined about what I call HAS the god selector because it's omnipotent and 715 01:09:45.680 --> 01:09:51.800 awe inspiring. There's also in baseline the popover API. That's when you can 716 01:09:51.840 --> 01:09:59.520 say, here's a button pop over target equals fo and div id equals foo, 717 01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:02.399 and with any JavaScript at all, when you hit that button, food 718 01:10:02.439 --> 01:10:08.840 will pop up. By default, it's centered vertically and horizontally. You can 719 01:10:09.600 --> 01:10:13.119 with CSS. You can give it an opake backdrop, you can change, 720 01:10:13.239 --> 01:10:15.880 you can do anything with it that you can do in CSS. When you 721 01:10:16.279 --> 01:10:21.920 pick the button again, the popover disappears. It's also got light dismissed with 722 01:10:23.119 --> 01:10:27.640 the ESK key built in, just given to you for free for browsers, 723 01:10:28.079 --> 01:10:31.000 and that's everywhere now. So I've been using that a great deal in a 724 01:10:31.000 --> 01:10:39.239 recent project and coming tuned soon to CSS is a masonry layout, and there's 725 01:10:39.239 --> 01:10:45.439 been really interesting conversations between WebKit and Chrome about different ways to achieve this. 726 01:10:45.039 --> 01:10:49.479 Each party believes that it's necessary to add to the web platform, but there 727 01:10:49.520 --> 01:10:57.720 are differences of opinion about how it should be implemented. Is it a kind 728 01:10:57.760 --> 01:11:01.439 of grid, is it a layout method of its own? I'm too stupid 729 01:11:01.520 --> 01:11:06.479 to know what's right or wrong, because it's all about how hard it is 730 01:11:06.520 --> 01:11:11.680 to implement in browsers, etc. Excuse me, But what I really like 731 01:11:11.920 --> 01:11:16.640 is the conversations between all the interested parties, because not only is it really 732 01:11:16.960 --> 01:11:23.840 well thought out, people are arguing their case but in a really mannered, 733 01:11:25.239 --> 01:11:30.640 decent way. But all along people are saying, if we do it that 734 01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:34.439 way, that's too complicated, and it doesn't even matter if masonry is supported 735 01:11:34.439 --> 01:11:40.439 at all. If developers don't understand this, they're always thinking along that priority 736 01:11:40.479 --> 01:11:45.680 of constituency. If we make it easy for us as browsing manufacturers, do 737 01:11:45.720 --> 01:11:48.600 we make it too hard for developers to actually do the thing we're trying to 738 01:11:48.640 --> 01:11:55.800 allow. And it's just a really great get up issue of yeah, what 739 01:11:55.840 --> 01:12:01.840 about this? And maybe you're right, what about this? I'm absolutely convinced 740 01:12:01.840 --> 01:12:04.720 that they're going to arrive at the best solution. I don't know what it 741 01:12:04.840 --> 01:12:12.760 is because these people have mighty brains, but it's so refreshing to see Anchor 742 01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:16.079 positioning is also coming, which is coming soon. Do you want to describe 743 01:12:16.079 --> 01:12:19.640 what that is? Then? As I recall, it's basically the ability to 744 01:12:20.159 --> 01:12:26.479 in a smart way position elements relative to one another. So, for example, 745 01:12:26.520 --> 01:12:30.560 we were talking about popovers, and you want the popovers to be positioned 746 01:12:30.600 --> 01:12:33.920 relative to some other element on the page, you can use anchors in order 747 01:12:33.960 --> 01:12:38.039 to achieve it. You know, we spoke about the fact that both like 748 01:12:38.079 --> 01:12:44.479 a tooltip instead of a yeah and when and it will be probably positioned within 749 01:12:44.520 --> 01:12:48.640 the viewport, which is really hard to do. And by the way, 750 01:12:48.880 --> 01:12:54.000 you know, as Bruce mentioned, that both he and I worked at WICKS, 751 01:12:54.600 --> 01:12:58.800 Like half of wis code, tons and tons of code, was about 752 01:12:58.840 --> 01:13:03.880 implementing behavior You're kind of like anchor positioning in using just job script and CSS 753 01:13:03.920 --> 01:13:09.720 the existing the current job SCRIPTANCSS. So theoretically it could get rid of half 754 01:13:09.760 --> 01:13:15.199 of wits's code. So I'm really excited about that. And another thing that 755 01:13:15.239 --> 01:13:20.199 I think Carson Gross from HTMX mentioned when he was in the show the ability 756 01:13:20.239 --> 01:13:26.880 to move elements in the dome without resetting them. So think about the fact 757 01:13:26.920 --> 01:13:30.520 that you can move a video from one page to from one part of the 758 01:13:30.560 --> 01:13:33.520 page and not part of the page, and the video will continue playing and 759 01:13:33.560 --> 01:13:38.000 not reset itself to the beginning of the video. Stuff like that. Really, 760 01:13:38.000 --> 01:13:43.920 a lot of exciting things are happening and making the browser and the web 761 01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:49.800 itself much more of an application platform without needing to resort to really sophisticated frameworks, 762 01:13:50.399 --> 01:13:56.079 and also with that happening to resort to crust the old component libraries. 763 01:13:56.119 --> 01:14:00.359 I was lot some research for my last job, and I looked at three 764 01:14:00.399 --> 01:14:09.520 different component libraries which had an accordion component which were full of crusty JavaScript that 765 01:14:09.680 --> 01:14:15.239 wasn't listening to the it wasn't checking whether you were hitting space or enter to 766 01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:21.159 open a thing, and wasn't setting all the accessibility property properties correctly. For 767 01:14:21.199 --> 01:14:26.640 the last four years five years in HTML, we've had the details elements where 768 01:14:26.640 --> 01:14:30.920 this is just given to you with all of the accessibility mappings built into the 769 01:14:30.920 --> 01:14:35.319 browsers for free. It's time. If you haven't looked at the component libraries 770 01:14:35.359 --> 01:14:39.119 you're using for a couple of years, it's time to have a look and 771 01:14:39.159 --> 01:14:43.399 see how much of this stuff you can retire, because it's technical debt on 772 01:14:43.439 --> 01:14:46.680 yourself and it's more for your user to download, so it's hurting performance. 773 01:14:48.640 --> 01:14:53.239 Yeah, I've I discovered the details. So I was working on an application 774 01:14:53.279 --> 01:14:57.000 for my client and they said, wouldn't this be easier in the details? 775 01:14:59.640 --> 01:15:00.520 What's that? And I went and looked it up and I was like, 776 01:15:00.920 --> 01:15:05.479 oh damn, I'm not writing this ever again, ever again. And I'll 777 01:15:05.520 --> 01:15:12.119 tell you what, chuck I live and breathe ht amount. I can't blame 778 01:15:12.159 --> 01:15:15.239 anybody for not following it because so much is going on in web standards. 779 01:15:15.239 --> 01:15:20.119 And one of the reasons why I finished my last gig I'm starting a new 780 01:15:20.119 --> 01:15:28.279 on next month is I got tired of filling my brain with stuff about node 781 01:15:28.880 --> 01:15:36.119 and Docker and all the ephemera of build process and deployment process, and it 782 01:15:36.199 --> 01:15:42.000 was blocking my ability to actually understand what was being given to me for free. 783 01:15:43.079 --> 01:15:47.560 I just couldn't absorb the information. So I've chosen to go back to 784 01:15:47.560 --> 01:15:51.880 my roots and just go back to the frontiest of the front end stuff. 785 01:15:53.560 --> 01:15:56.279 Yeah. Well, it sounds like there's a lot of cool stuff coming to 786 01:15:56.279 --> 01:15:59.520 the web platform, so maybe we should see if we can use it everywhere 787 01:16:00.119 --> 01:16:03.319 that that'd be real cool. And we go around in a back to where 788 01:16:03.319 --> 01:16:08.319 we started, like an urebuus of love. Right, I'm going to jump 789 01:16:08.359 --> 01:16:12.680 in with my picks real quick. We're already past time. There's another call 790 01:16:12.720 --> 01:16:16.199 I wanted to get on. It's a webinar presentation thing, so it's it's 791 01:16:16.279 --> 01:16:19.960 running without me, which is fine, but anyway, no, this is 792 01:16:20.000 --> 01:16:24.720 fascinating stuff. I don't have a problem sticking around for a few minutes. 793 01:16:24.960 --> 01:16:30.239 But my pick, so I usually do a board game pick, and so 794 01:16:31.000 --> 01:16:34.520 I'm going to pick a game called Death Eater's Rising. If you've read or 795 01:16:34.560 --> 01:16:42.720 watched the Harry Potter movies, read the books. Effectively, it's a game 796 01:16:42.760 --> 01:16:47.079 where you build a team of wizards to fight off Voldemort's rise, and so 797 01:16:47.159 --> 01:16:53.159 Voldemort shows up about halfway through the deck. You stick him in halfway through 798 01:16:53.199 --> 01:16:57.319 and then you just play untel he shows up, and then if you've defeated 799 01:16:57.439 --> 01:17:01.000 enough death Eaters and you can, you can defeat Baltimore and you play it 800 01:17:01.039 --> 01:17:06.239 with the cards and the wizards can all take damage and write and you can 801 01:17:06.279 --> 01:17:10.560 heal each other and anyway, it's a fun game, and so you have 802 01:17:10.640 --> 01:17:14.800 your team and you're working together with the other players that have their teams. 803 01:17:15.680 --> 01:17:18.199 Board game geek waits it at two point seven to three or two point three 804 01:17:18.279 --> 01:17:25.560 seven sorry, So that's pretty approachable. It's a little bit on the complicated 805 01:17:25.600 --> 01:17:28.079 side for people who are just casual gamers, but you can definitely pick it 806 01:17:28.119 --> 01:17:32.079 up and it's a fun game. You can play it two to four players. 807 01:17:32.079 --> 01:17:35.560 We found that at four players, so you have a starting wizard. 808 01:17:36.119 --> 01:17:40.119 At four players, somebody gets a wizard that's not ideal for the team, 809 01:17:40.800 --> 01:17:44.119 and so we usually just play it with three people, but if one of 810 01:17:44.119 --> 01:17:46.359 the kids wants to play it, then it makes it four. Then we 811 01:17:46.439 --> 01:17:48.439 just make it four and then we do what we can to help the other 812 01:17:48.479 --> 01:17:56.279 personnel. Let's see one other thing that I've been playing with lately. I 813 01:17:56.399 --> 01:18:02.159 usually don't do too many deeply technical picks, but I've been playing a lot 814 01:18:02.199 --> 01:18:09.039 with veat lately, and wow, it's magical. Like I'd get lost managing 815 01:18:09.359 --> 01:18:15.600 webpack or what have you. And so I didn't always love having to use 816 01:18:15.680 --> 01:18:21.359 Webpack. I switched over rails has import maps built in, and that mostly 817 01:18:21.399 --> 01:18:25.920 works most of the time. But what I found is that veat gave me 818 01:18:25.960 --> 01:18:30.199 a couple of capabilities like hot module reloading and stuff that import maps just didn't 819 01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:36.239 quite you didn't have it. And then some of the older libraries their module 820 01:18:36.319 --> 01:18:40.920 set up just wasn't quite like you had to play with it a little bit 821 01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:44.079 to get it to work. And Beat seems to just mostly work. So 822 01:18:44.159 --> 01:18:51.199 I've been pretty happy with that. And yeah, I think that's all of 823 01:18:51.199 --> 01:18:55.319 the picks that I have, So let's go ahead and wrap it up. 824 01:18:55.359 --> 01:18:58.039 Thanks for coming, Bruce, this was a ton of fun. Thank you 825 01:18:58.079 --> 01:19:00.399 both for having me and listen to me, and people on the other end 826 01:19:00.479 --> 01:19:03.479 of this whom I can't see, thank you too. All right, Well, 827 01:19:03.560 --> 01:19:05.039 until next time, folks, max out