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Hey, how are you Come on
in and have a chair. I hope

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you're doing well. I have to
talk a little bit about podcasting today.

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We started, I should say,
I started this podcast in twenty fourteen and

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we are celebrating our tenth anniversary.
Just finished celebrating. It was in May.

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But I started podcasting in its infancy. I was working with clients.

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Podcasting kind of showed up around two
thousand and five as an experiment. Internet

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radio is what they used to call
it. It's still kind of focused on

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providing, you know, those who
are on the Internet access to all kinds

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of topics. I mean, the
sky's the limit. There's apparently there's worldwide

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like five million different podcasts. Can
you believe it? But I was in

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it in the very beginning, and
I had clients that wanted me to research

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and help them launch their own podcasts. And this is really how I learned

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about the effectiveness of podcasting and through
the success that I had with various clients.

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I was a marketing consultant for a
number of different people here in the

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San Francisco Bay area, a couple
who were outside of the state of California,

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and I learned of the way to
create a quality podcast and really discovered

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the ins and outs of programming success
programming for a number of topics including psychology,

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wellness, personal growth. These are
clients, including a former client who

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I worked with. I think I
mentioned Whole Life Expo, which morphed into

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New Living Expo when that name was
taken by a German company, Whole Life

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Expo that is. And so I
learned a great deal about working with people,

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working with guests who were either authors
or had interesting topics for my clients.

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And in twenty fourteen I launched Earth
Ancients, a name based on my

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interest in ancient cultures, ancient civilizations, how they lived, how they survived,

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and so much about history that we
didn't know about. And so Earth

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Ancients has been going for ten years, has been growing and expanding its lip,

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and just recently the National Podcast Association
awarded Earth Ancients for excellence and programming

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and also it's continual growth since twenty
fourteen, a tenure and a verse.

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We were just sent a trophy,
which was nice to get, you know,

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and it makes you feel good because
you know, you put a lot

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of hours. We put a lot
of hours into creating Earth Ancients, and

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it was nice to receive a trophy. You can see me holding this trophy

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on my Facebook page. I'm also
going to post it on the Facebook Earth

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Ancients International and group page. But
you know, over the years, I've

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made a lot of friends. I've
really enjoyed interviewing the top names, the

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best. I call them the best
of the best. You know, in

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every December we kind of close out
the year with a month of the best

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of the best in a variety of
topics. And you know who I'm talking

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about, Graham Hancock, Randall Carlson, Robert Shaw. I mean, the

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list goes on and on. I
was looking at our archives. We have

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over six hundred and fifty different podcasts
that we've produced in that ten year span

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and it's been fantastic. I want
to thank the following people for helping me

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with Earth Ancients. I want to
thank Jen Dao, who's a regular,

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Bruce Fenton, Ruth Thomas, our
former consultant, Gail Tour, our producer,

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Mark Foster, Ammy Domestico from iHeartRadio. iHeart picked us up back in

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twenty eighteen and we're on iHeart podcast. We're also on iTunes pretty much anywhere

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you can get your podcast or where
you listen to podcasts, you can download

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Earth Ancient, which is part of
being with iHeart. And of course now

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the heavy hitter is sp Spotify supports
podcasts worldwide, but they're really been picking

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it up with Earth Ancients and getting
it out and we're going to be doing

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more with Spotify, specifically in our
video presentations. By the way, you

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can see all of our not all
of them, I would say a select

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few. It's about fifty now of
video capture of some of the better podcasts

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Graham Hancock, Randall, Carlson and
so on. On YouTube. You can

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go to YouTube and go to Earth
Ancients and find our page. It's called

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Earth Ancients Official. So that's another
way we're getting the word out about podcasting.

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So hey, thank you to National
Podcast Association. The award is appreciated.

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And you know, I am a
mentor to new and upcoming podcasts,

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and so I know the consistency,
the amount of hours, the dedication it

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takes to put together a podcast.
You know, it's funny. It's a

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real fluid and I use this term
fluid medium, and I really I mean

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I'm an artist by training. I
don't pain or draw or do any of

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that anymore. I do write so
as a form of creativity, but I've

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really taken to podcasting and I really
enjoy it. And Earth Ancient's little sister,

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Destiny is also a great joy.
And for those of you listening to

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Destiny, I hope you enjoy that. So also I want to thank Destiny.

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Destiny has also propelled into the forefront
of podcasting, and Destiny is a

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very big part of Earth Ancient.
So together they're a great deal fun to

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produce and to get out there.
So I hope you enjoy Destiny as well

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as Earth Ancients. So all right, ten years with the Earth Ancients.

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We're hoping for ten more and it's
been great fun and we will continue to

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have good fun and solid programming for
both programs. So thank you Today is

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a real important podcast. We have
a returning guest. It's doctor Karacooney from

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UCLA in California. She has written
a new book called Recycling for Death,

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coffin research in Ancient Egypt and the
Thebian Royal Cash and this is really not

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necessarily made for the general audience,
but she's going to be making it available

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in August. We're kind of having
this podcast interview a little early. So

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this book is a real close look
and a discovery of the reuse of coffins,

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but not only the coffins, the
death masks, the gold and the

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trimmings that go into high ranking administrative
individuals to the pharaohs, but also the

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pharaohs themselves. And what is unusual
about this discovery is that we have known

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that people like Ramsey's The Second and
I've talked about this before, We've had

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people on to talk about it.
Ramsey's the Second SETI the First and other

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noted pharaohs claimed temples, buildings,
artifacts, even statuary as their own,

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even with the knowledge that they were
not from their time period, perhaps much

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much earlier. And this is what's
really insane about this discovery is that it

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leads into the death the funerary that
were created for specific pharaohs. You're going

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to be blown away today with what
she presents on this topic. And what

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really makes it fascinating is that all
the way down to the jewelry was reused

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in a number of major burials.
Now what's shocking is what brings out this

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behavior. Why would a pharaoh reuse
or claim temples, these buildings, objects,

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including statuary of their own. This
doesn't make any sense. This is

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very odd, very almost childish behavior, and today we're going to learn why

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they approached these items in such a
manner. I believe that it's a lot

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of this material is left from previous
epoch, previous peeriods of time. And

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because there isn't a noted name of
a living pharaoh at the time or an

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individual, Ramsey's would regularly put his
cartouche his signature on statuary of enormous height

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and weight. And I think there's
a great deal of confusion in doing this,

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because why would he do this?
And in doing so he confuses historians.

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So we have Ramsey's cartouche on statues
that are likely thousands of years before

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he existed, before he became a
pharaoh. And Ramsey's is not the only

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one. You're going to hear today
some ground breaking discovery on what this whole

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Puronic period is about. And it's
kind of shocking in many ways because we're

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thinking that these pharaohs in their dynasties
were very wealthy, and now it appears

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that a number of them, especially
in the Later Kingdom or the New Kingdom,

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were desperate. We're desperate for trinkets
of gold, were desperate for the

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jewels that these earlier pharaohs were buried
with, and they ransacked the tombs.

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Oh God. So today's program is
Recycling for Death, and my guest is

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doctor Kara Cooney. I've just returned
from Egypt, and I gotta say,

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it's always a pleasure to go to
Egypt, but there are so many questions

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about the Dynastic period, pre Dynastic
so forth and so on. There's thousands

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of years mudeled into various temples,
various artifacts, and it's now time to

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speak with doctor Kara Cooney. We
haven't had care on the program probably a

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couple of years. And if you
don't know who she is, she is

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a professor of Egyptology at UCLA.
But more to her groundbak breaking work,

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she is the author of a number
of very important books. My favorite are

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The Woman Who Would Be King,
When Women Rule the World and The Good

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King. She's got a brand new
book out now, and this book is

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a fascinating study on She's Actually the
title of the book is Recycling or Dead,

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and I was like, what is
this all about? Well, the

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book is a monster. It's almost
five hundred pages and is her study on

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reusing coffins and so Kara Welcome back
to Earth Ancients. This is a fascinating

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book. It's a monster and I
can see it's a passion as well,

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isn't it. It's a contribution to
the field, Cliff, and thanks for

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having me back. I'm thrilled to
be here. You know, it's funny.

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I read a paragraph somewhere where you
were at the British Museum. This

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is way way way back before this
even happened, and you were with somebody

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noted Egyptologis, somebody who was a
very focal point in the field of egyptology,

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and you made a comment about the
coffin and it was like the patina

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or the design with such that it
was covering something earlier. And you made

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like, hey, it looks they're
reusing this. And the guy said to

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you John, I can't remember his
last name, Don Taylor. John,

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Yeah, he said, he said, someone needs to look into this.

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It's like, yeah, somebody should, really, somebody should really work on

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that. That was in two thousand
and that's before you, before thy four

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years ago when he said that,
Okay, twenty four years ago, isn't

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how long this shit takes. But
more to the point, this book is

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like a fifteen year project. Is
what I read fifteen years So this has

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been in the back of your mind
as something you needed to complete. Talk

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a little bit about the inception of
the idea and where it began to formulate

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itself in this book. Well,
this will give your listeners a little insight

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into the academic world, how slowly
it moves, how carefully we have to

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traverse its many pitfalls, and how
this kind of work really happens. So

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I was in the Britain Museum in
two thousand working on my dissertation and gathering

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data for my dissertation which was called
The Cost of Death. This new book

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is called Recycling for Death, and
that one is the Cost of Death.

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And when I was working on that
book, I was having the British Museum

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pull out coffins in their holdings that
were of the nineteenth or twentieth dynasty and

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date. Because I was I was
cataloging all of these coffins, but I

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was also comparing them to price data
that we have from Western Thebes and from

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the village of Darro Medina for those
people who know. So I actually have

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collected like hundreds of prices for coffins. Some coffins cost thirty five deban to

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decorate, some cost twenty five deben
for the whole thing. A deban is

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ninety one grams of copper, and
you can buy, let's see, a

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goat for five deban or a cow
a really nice pow for like fifty deban.

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And you know, these are the
kinds of things that I was looking

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at. So I was obsessed with
how much everything cost, and I wanted

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to look at these coffins and kind
of like, I don't know, Cliff,

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when was the last wedding you went
to, uh, like four years

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ago, okay? And so everyone
looks at the dress right where they look

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at the dress is the focal point. So I want you to think of

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the wedding dress as like the coffin
of this display, right, Okay.

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So you look at the dress and
you're like, that dress is like it's

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a shitty fabric. It's it's like
polyester, it's all just it's not very

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nice quality. And you know immediately
that the bride is coming from a certain

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social milieure and she doesn't understand or
doesn't want to understand how to make her

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dress into something that would that would
place her in a different social category.

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And then you go to a different
wedding, Say you go to the wedding

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of a very rich person who's getting
married at a fancy hotel in New York,

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and her dress will be more understated, likely attention, and yet will

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be made of much more fancy fabric
a designer. The designer might even be

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there in the wedding to help fit
it right before, I mean for that

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kind of a wedding, right And
and you know immediately where these people fit

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within society. Maybe maybe you know
the woman with the crappy dresses standing next

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to a guy who's got a rental
suit on. You know, he's not

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even gonna buy his suit, it's
a rental. And that gives you an

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idea of the way that I that
I'm looking at coffins. I'm looking at

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them in terms of social competition,
cost and how much people were able to

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pay, and where they fit in
society. And I'm looking at coffins as

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social documents. Right, what can
these coffins tell us about Man X or

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woman Y who was buried in this
thing, who commissioned it? In their

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lifetime and was like, I wanted
to look like this, And then I

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try to look at all of the
coffins of this time period and talk about

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the spending abilities of people but also
the choices that they're making based on what's

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available. But you actually go beyond
just the quality of the coffin decor.

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You made a really good analogy in
the wedding dress by saying a lot of

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women will use their mother's dress or
their grandmother's dress, honoring the family's heritage,

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tradition, whatever you want to call
it, lineage, and in the

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coffins region. This is why this
is a fascinating subject, by the way,

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and we're going to talk more about
it, because there's a number of

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pharaohs who are reusing temples, but
when a woman reuses the wedding dress,

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they honor the family the honor and
this is the analogy. You're saying that

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this became quite and this is an
end of the you calling it the end

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of the new kingdom that's happening nineteen
Bronze Age collapse. For those of you

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that are obsessed with collapse, I
think we all feel it in our bones,

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We feel it in the water.
The collapse is coming for us.

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So anybody that's interested in collapse,
Bronze Age collapse is a big one.

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And well, this is very it's
fine. I'm studying. Yeah, yeah,

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it's amazing. We're going to get
into this. But so talk a

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bit about that analogy, because you're
bringing up the wedding dresses as a focal

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point. Talk about the analogy of
the you know, something old, something

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new, blah blah blah. So
I'm looking at these coffins of the nineteenth

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and twentieth dynasty because I'm like,
oh, this is these are the ones

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I can compare the prices to.
I didn't look at them because they were

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a part of this Bronze Age collapse
in this extraordinary crisis. Looking back,

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I'm like, damn, I was
lucky because I was looking at all of

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these pieces and there are like one
hundred coffins of this time period, not

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very many, and I'm looking at
all of them and I'm noticing how much

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reuse there is as I'm studying this, and I'm like, well that's a

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topic for another day, right,
I've seen it, like with John Taylor

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and the British Museum, somebody should
really work on this, and I put

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it away in the back of my
head, as you say, and I

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don't get to it for another ten
years, and then I start this systematic

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study and it takes me another fifteen
years to actually publish it in a monograph

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and a volume with all of the
documentation. It's actually going to be two

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volumes. I'm working on a second
volume of recycling for death like as not

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as we speak. But I mean
maybe somebody is. I have people working

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out it. But so the reason
we hadn't thought to look for coffin reuse

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is because in our minds, right, the coffin is something that you put

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the dead person in, and then
the dead person stays in that coffin.

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They don't leave it. No one's
going to take them out because they're put

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into the ground. And that's it. That's what we have in our minds.

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And when you find things that are
intact in ancient Egypt, ideally you

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have the coffin with the dead,
like think of the tomb of tunancoalmen.

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Right, he's he's there in his
triple nesting coffin set and no one's taken

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him out of it. It has
not been reused, or has it that's

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another question we should come back to, because that nesting coffin set of two

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common has almost certainly reused itself.
But that's a different thing when we find

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it as archaeologists. It's not reused. The dead is still in the coffin,

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So we think in our archaeology minds, oh, they wouldn't have reused

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these things. And the more I
looked at these coffins, the more I

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could see that what we're finding in
the archaeological record is the last instance of

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use of many uses of these pieces, particularly in a time of crisis.

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So the wedding dress analogy works because
in the twentieth dynasty, especially when the

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Bronze Age collapse was really getting underway, you have people in a family who

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are like, look, we've got
this coffin set. That's it. We

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don't have any more cash to spend
on this stuff, we don't have any

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more disposable income to literally put into
the ground. We have to use this

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coffin set and use it well.
And so the coffin is used and then

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reused as a transformation device first and
foremost, ritual display device first and foremost,

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not a permanent ownership of the dead. It's like the wedding dress is

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used as a It's not something you
keep wearing after you get married. People

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would make fun of you. You
would be a weirdo to walk around in

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your wedding dress. Because you're married. Now you get to wear it all

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the time. You wear it for
that moment of transformation and public display,

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and you take it off and you
put it away, and you put it

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away carefully. You have a clean
You do all these things and keep it

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safe. Right. It seems that
during times of crisis, the Egyptians were

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doing the same with the coffin.
They use it as a transformation device.

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They transform the dead into a cyrus
and ray and all of these things that

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an off a spirit that was able
to do all kinds of extraordinary things.

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And then they seem to have buried
the disease with that coffin in their family

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sepulcher. And then when they needed
it, then they took the deceased out

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of the coffin. Probably I know, probably, but it's a wrapped mummy,

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right, but probably with all kinds
of magical spells in association with it.

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But they're going into their own family
crypt right, opening up that nesting

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set, pulling that body out,
saying they're sorry, saying we encircle your

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heart. Please don't come after us, don't do the angry dead person thing.

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And then they take that coffin set
out, they replaster it, they

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repaint it, and they reuse it
for someone else, in the same way

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that that wedding dress would be taken
out of the mothball closet and then maybe

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updated. Certainly, what would be
made to fit the person that it's altered,

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That's the word I was looking for
in my mind, would be altered

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to fit the person who's going to
wear it next. And you get this

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idea of an object as the devisive
transformation in a public space. So I

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want you to talk a little bit
about I want to give this some context.

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Each oftologists have known about repurposing.
I call it repurposing or reusing like

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pimples artifacts. Now we know we're
going to get in a deep more detail

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on this coffin reuse, but UH, talk a little bit about what we

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know academically. We know that Ramsey
was a big one of He would throw

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his cartouche on a statue and say, you know, I've seen this at

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the in the Cairo Museum. There's
a very famous green statue. I think

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it's no, it's somebody. It's
green in the middle. It's like on

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the first floor and I can't think
of it. And they and some pharaoh

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through his cartoushe at the bottom.
This is an immaculate sculpture of a man.

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Yeah, and this horrible graffiti cartouche
is placed on either side and it

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looks like someone took a knife and
scratched their name on it. And it's

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00:24:55.680 --> 00:24:59.720
like and the weird thing about that
is Egtal is like, well it must

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00:24:59.720 --> 00:25:03.400
have been him. We don't know. Well, there's a lot that you

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can say about statue reuse. This
is a really interesting topic. And I

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have a graduate student named Kylie Thompson's
working on statue reuse right now. And

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Ramsey's the Second was the best statue
reuser the world had ever seen, and

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he systematically went after the statues of
Amenhotep the third in particular, and eighteenth

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dynasty king whose son was Akanatin had
created that whole weird sun cult religion that

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everybody hated by this time. So
it is quite possible that when Ramsey's the

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00:25:34.119 --> 00:25:38.319
Second was reusing all of Amenhotep the
Third statues. People are like, fine,

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00:25:38.400 --> 00:25:41.480
take it, he had it coming, we don't know. But he

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systematically goes after this guy's pieces and
he moves them. He moves them to

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new locations. He even matches new
statues with them. So you go to

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Looks for a temple looks or Temple, which is a north south temple along

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the Nile in modern day looks On
named it Resuit, right, that's the

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00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:04.839
ancient name of the temple, and
you go into the first courtyard. You'll

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see all of these statues of Ramsey's
the second, Yes, around the courtyard.

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Half of them are reused from Amenhotep
the Third, which you can tell

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with a careful examination. It was
horrid Serusian who did this careful examination improve

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this point. And half of them
he made himself to match what he had

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reused. So he's even getting a
new portrait of his face because he's reusing

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so many of these statues. He's
like, shit, I can't, you

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know, use the portrait that I
would actually want that probably looks more like

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me. I need to use this
portrait that allows me to reuse all these

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Amenhotep the Third statues. And that's
how much this king was reusing. And

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00:26:48.799 --> 00:26:53.240
you know he does recarve the faces, he does recarve the chests. Amenhotep

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00:26:53.279 --> 00:26:56.920
the Third like a fatter face and
big lips and a shorter nose. And

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Ramsey's the second is like, nope, no longer knows. My lips shouldn't

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00:27:00.559 --> 00:27:03.839
be as big, my eyes shouldn't
be as big. I need more of

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00:27:03.839 --> 00:27:07.799
a chisel jaw. And he adds
all of that. He has his stone

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00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:11.359
workers go in and do that the
chest of a'm in Hotep the third,

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00:27:11.440 --> 00:27:17.279
he was like the king who didn't
mind showing himself more corpulent, right,

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00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:19.559
Yeah, So Ramsey's the second is
like, no, I want to show

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00:27:19.599 --> 00:27:22.880
myself all cut and hot and chiseled. So he has them go in and

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00:27:22.920 --> 00:27:27.799
like redo the pectoral muscles, and
if you have a careful eye, you

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00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:33.359
can go in and you can look
at where things have been rechiseled. Particularly

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00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:41.279
because Amenhotep the third was making statuary
at the height of artist capabilities in hardstone.

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00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:42.880
These people knew how to carve ard
stone. They knew how to do

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00:27:42.920 --> 00:27:49.039
it beautifully, brilliantly, beautifully.
And then Ramsey's the second is like quantity

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00:27:49.119 --> 00:27:52.279
over quality, We just need to
get it done, and he has it

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00:27:52.440 --> 00:27:56.960
recarved summarily quickly, and you can
tell. So if you're able to note

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00:27:57.000 --> 00:28:02.480
that difference in quality, then you're
able to see how he's reused all of

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00:28:02.519 --> 00:28:06.000
these statues. Point My point in
the statuary though, and I want you

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00:28:06.119 --> 00:28:11.519
to continue just a little bit on
the buildings, is that at Hathor,

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00:28:11.920 --> 00:28:17.599
at uh Well and Dendara Hathor,
I think in Karnak and Looks are some

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of these main temples. They're being
reused over thousands of years, right,

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00:28:22.079 --> 00:28:30.640
So are you suggesting that that these
pharaohs, these kings are reusing them in

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their name and this is kind of
the and then the coffin is the fallout

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00:28:36.519 --> 00:28:41.000
of that use because it becomes comfortable
for them to do this. Yeah,

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I would think it would be.
I think you would think that was the

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end game, right, that you
would have a statue and you would just

328
00:28:48.240 --> 00:28:51.039
reuse it and reuse it and reuse
it. But that's not what they do.

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00:28:51.960 --> 00:28:56.400
Interestingly, there there is this push
and pull between this idea of I

330
00:28:56.440 --> 00:28:59.839
made the statue, that's my statue, don't touch it, and a lot

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00:28:59.839 --> 00:29:03.960
of kings, most kings don't touch
other kings statues. Most kings are quite

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00:29:04.160 --> 00:29:11.359
happy to place their statue amongst those
statues and not touch them. Most kings

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00:29:11.400 --> 00:29:15.880
don't have the balls, the temerity
to go in and take all these other

334
00:29:15.920 --> 00:29:19.119
statues and recarve them. So it
is not something that you see on the

335
00:29:19.200 --> 00:29:22.880
regular like over and over and over
again. You see it. You see

336
00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:29.680
it with kings who have the political
will to do it. So you see

337
00:29:29.680 --> 00:29:33.039
it with Ramsey's the Second. You
do see it with Ramsey's the third,

338
00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:34.480
who is not his son, my
nept is his son. Ramsey's the third

339
00:29:34.559 --> 00:29:37.640
is of a different dynasty. He
just happens to be the third Ramseys in

340
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:41.799
the line. He does a lot
of reuse as well, but nobody reuses

341
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:48.559
reuses as much as Ramsey is the
second, probably because he had the political

342
00:29:48.599 --> 00:29:52.319
will and ability to reuse that much. And if you if you're curious about

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00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:53.440
this, you can read my book
The Good King, for I have a

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00:29:53.519 --> 00:29:59.079
chapter on Ramsey's the Second. I'll
I have the book right up here on

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00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:02.640
my bookshelf. I'll have to look
at after we're done. It's such a

346
00:30:02.640 --> 00:30:07.279
curiousity. I'm using that as a
as a pretext for this coffin use,

347
00:30:07.200 --> 00:30:15.039
and obviously if the priesthood is involved, if there's a group who are working

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00:30:15.079 --> 00:30:22.279
with the bearing and the preparing the
body for dead, and coffin reuse for

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00:30:22.440 --> 00:30:26.319
us, I think it would be
a traumatic experience to pull somebody out of

350
00:30:26.359 --> 00:30:30.480
a coffin and then reuse it obviously
for them. And this is what's so

351
00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:33.799
weird about it. And I'm really
curious to know if you have found writings

352
00:30:34.240 --> 00:30:38.519
where it says, we go ahead, we reuse this coffin. We bless

353
00:30:38.680 --> 00:30:47.000
the departed mummified body that's dumped into
a garbage can and no garbage can.

354
00:30:47.160 --> 00:30:49.039
No, there's the whole way of
doing this. Okay, So you actually

355
00:30:49.079 --> 00:30:53.359
have found this right kind up kind
of so in the same way as the

356
00:30:53.359 --> 00:30:56.480
statue, where you your mind would
be like, oh, they reused,

357
00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:00.839
so they're going to reuse these coffins
or these statues you know, over thousands

358
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:03.920
of years. No, because there
is still the understanding that they should be

359
00:31:04.400 --> 00:31:10.359
ideally, morally, they should be
a one use thing, one king,

360
00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:14.319
one statue, one coffin, one
person. It should be that way.

361
00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:18.599
But in moments of crisis or with
a king with the political will, who's

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00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:22.480
just going to do what he wants, then the rules may change, right,

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00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:29.119
So the there I haven't found any
eighteenth dynasty reuse coffins. For instance,

364
00:31:29.599 --> 00:31:32.839
eighteenth dynasty, this would be the
time of a king like Toutma's the

365
00:31:32.880 --> 00:31:37.160
third, the warrior king who went
to Megiddo and won or aman hood tept

366
00:31:37.160 --> 00:31:41.519
the third, when Egypt was arguably
the richest it's ever been. You,

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00:31:41.799 --> 00:31:45.759
I don't have any documented reuse from
these time periods. If I carbon dated

368
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.640
the wood, would some of that
would be older than it should be,

369
00:31:49.960 --> 00:31:55.160
probably, But that's not a reuse
of the coffin, right, So that's

370
00:31:55.200 --> 00:32:00.920
a reuse of wood. So what
I'm saying is that use is not Coffin

371
00:32:00.960 --> 00:32:07.880
reuse is not meant to happen,
but it does happen. So people who

372
00:32:07.880 --> 00:32:09.720
are doing it, or there are
illegal ways of doing it, and there

373
00:32:09.759 --> 00:32:14.799
are illegal ways of doing it.
The illegal ways we have written down.

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00:32:15.200 --> 00:32:19.119
Those are there. So if you
looked at like the tomb robbery papyriy,

375
00:32:19.480 --> 00:32:22.519
which is a group of papyri which
you're super interesting, everyone can google the

376
00:32:22.519 --> 00:32:28.200
tomb robbery papyriy and have fun researching
and read your Wikipedia page and go to

377
00:32:28.200 --> 00:32:34.440
town. But essentially there are people
who are brought in on charges of theft,

378
00:32:34.960 --> 00:32:37.880
and they're like, yeah, you
know, we went into this tomb

379
00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.839
and we found these coffins, and
we took the dead body out, and

380
00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.880
in that case they did throw it
in the trash, and we took these

381
00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:49.279
coffins and we brought them to the
marketplace and they're like, Okay, you're

382
00:32:49.319 --> 00:32:52.559
gonna get punished. Or there's another
situation in the tomb robbery papyary where they

383
00:32:52.559 --> 00:32:58.480
say we broke into this, this
really fancy tomb, we took the coffins

384
00:32:58.519 --> 00:33:01.319
out, We didn't take the bodies
out. We set them on fire,

385
00:33:02.359 --> 00:33:07.279
and we came back the next day
and took all of the precious gold and

386
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:10.759
gems or whatever that were there in
the ashes. It was a really fast

387
00:33:10.839 --> 00:33:16.480
way of getting to the gold and
probably mostly gold, maybe fiance glass stone

388
00:33:16.480 --> 00:33:21.880
inlay things like that, maybe some
lappis, maybe some turquoise whatever, But

389
00:33:21.920 --> 00:33:27.119
they were able to take those things
pretty easily. So you do have illegal

390
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.480
reuse, documented intext legal reuse.
No, because people aren't going to be

391
00:33:32.599 --> 00:33:37.920
like, it's not as positive as
reusing mama's wedding dress. It's not.

392
00:33:39.000 --> 00:33:44.359
It's not something where you're like Oh, my daughter decided to reuse my dress,

393
00:33:44.400 --> 00:33:46.440
and I have to tell everyone it's
so special. This is not that,

394
00:33:46.880 --> 00:33:51.000
this is something that you're deeply ashamed
of, but you have to do

395
00:33:51.680 --> 00:33:54.799
Wait a minute, are you saying
that you are reading that they are ashamed

396
00:33:54.839 --> 00:34:00.799
of this? Now, I'm not. I don't have any evidence that they're

397
00:34:00.920 --> 00:34:05.119
ashamed of it, but I don't
have any be talking about it openly.

398
00:34:05.640 --> 00:34:07.559
And I have a whole lot of
evidence of them trying to hide it,

399
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:14.360
of them plastering over areas that would
show this kind of reuse, or taking

400
00:34:14.400 --> 00:34:17.840
out a name such that that name
is not there anymore in most cases,

401
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:23.719
not every case, but in most
cases, and it's something they don't want

402
00:34:23.800 --> 00:34:30.360
to they don't want to advertise,
so they're embarrassed or really worried. This

403
00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:35.400
is a traumatizing thing. These coffins
are meant to be one use. This

404
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:37.920
is why I want to I want
to keep on the thought. Yeah,

405
00:34:38.199 --> 00:34:45.199
this is a culture that praises the
dead, sanctifies the dead exactly. I

406
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:52.559
mean, we look at touts his
remains in today's market, millions of dollars

407
00:34:52.599 --> 00:34:58.679
in gold items buried with him.
His coffin is multi layers, as you

408
00:34:58.719 --> 00:35:06.960
say, does this reuse market change
in social or religious traditions. Absolutely,

409
00:35:07.239 --> 00:35:09.519
So let's put all of us in
an impossible situation. Let's go a little

410
00:35:09.519 --> 00:35:15.599
mad Max, Let's go a little
apocalyptic. Let's say that we deeply believe

411
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:22.119
that if we didn't provide material containment
that was all decorated, naming the deceased

412
00:35:22.159 --> 00:35:27.239
as the god to transform the dead, that if we did not do that,

413
00:35:27.239 --> 00:35:31.039
that our dead would not be thus
transformed. And let's also let's take

414
00:35:31.079 --> 00:35:35.159
the religious part out of it and
just bring the social in which I think

415
00:35:35.159 --> 00:35:38.719
we can all understand that if you
don't have a public funeral, you will

416
00:35:38.719 --> 00:35:43.639
lose face, that your family will
lose power. Right, So let's say

417
00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:45.559
that those things are both true.
We know those things are both true,

418
00:35:45.719 --> 00:35:51.119
and then an apocalypse descends upon us. And you have a loved one that's

419
00:35:51.280 --> 00:35:53.079
just died. Let's say that your
father has just died, and your father

420
00:35:53.280 --> 00:35:58.360
is a super important patriarch in the
village. He's you know, been a

421
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.800
power figure in this village. For
while everyone is expecting you to do a

422
00:36:01.800 --> 00:36:06.679
big funeral. They're expecting the bread
and beer and the feasting of the funeral.

423
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.480
They're expecting everything. You can't get
wood. Let's say it's the beginning

424
00:36:09.480 --> 00:36:13.920
of the apocalypse, the beginning of
the collapse. You can't get your hands

425
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.159
on any wood. You've sat with
the artisan and the Artisan's like, dude,

426
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:19.000
I would love to make you a
coffin. I would love to make

427
00:36:19.000 --> 00:36:21.519
you a whole set. There is
no wood, and you're like, where

428
00:36:21.559 --> 00:36:23.000
the hell is the wood? And
he's like, well, those trees got

429
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:27.840
burned by the sea people's when they
invaded last time. And these trees are

430
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.920
all being used to fight off the
sea peoples. They're making them into weapons.

431
00:36:30.920 --> 00:36:32.840
There are no trees, there's no
wood, and you're like, shit,

432
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:37.559
what do I do? I have
no wood. Everyone's expecting me to

433
00:36:37.599 --> 00:36:42.760
bury Dad with all of the state
funeral that he demands, that all the

434
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:45.760
pump and circumstance, and I need
to transform him morally. This is something

435
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:49.679
that I need to do to make
sure that he is an off for me.

436
00:36:50.119 --> 00:36:54.000
He becomes this activated dead. Right, So you have this conundrum,

437
00:36:54.320 --> 00:36:59.039
and you can either go steal a
neighbor's coffin, which would be highly illegal

438
00:36:59.079 --> 00:37:00.960
and would be a problem, right, and is the moral too? Why

439
00:37:01.000 --> 00:37:07.960
add immorality to immorality. Or you
could go into your family sepulcher. You

440
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.880
could go into that tomb, you
could move things around, you could look

441
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:14.360
there, maybe with your own son, and be like, oh my god,

442
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:16.199
do you know who that person in
the corner is. Nope, I

443
00:37:16.239 --> 00:37:21.360
have no memory of that person.
Maybe that person is five generations past.

444
00:37:21.440 --> 00:37:24.000
Do you know the people of five
generations past? Do you know the people

445
00:37:24.039 --> 00:37:30.679
of three generations passed? Maybe?
But four? Right? Once they've left

446
00:37:30.800 --> 00:37:35.719
your known memory and the known memory
of everyone in your village, you're like,

447
00:37:35.760 --> 00:37:38.559
okay, let's take out that person. That makes sense, So you

448
00:37:38.599 --> 00:37:42.840
move this stuff. I don't know
that this is happening, but there's enough

449
00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:47.320
circumstantial evidence from a tomb like theban
tomb one at dear Ol Medina, which

450
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:52.320
shows twenty two human bodies in it, and only nine of them were still

451
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:57.960
in coffins when that tomb was found. So taking the bodies out and putting

452
00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:01.239
the mummies next to the coffin,
yeah, I've seen that. As Sakara.

453
00:38:02.079 --> 00:38:06.039
Yes, this is happening everywhere.
When there's crisis, they're like,

454
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:08.639
oh my god, we have we
need these this coffin materiality, we need

455
00:38:08.639 --> 00:38:13.480
this stuff. So that they take, they move things around, they shift

456
00:38:13.519 --> 00:38:16.719
it. They pull that nested coffin
set out, they open that coffin set

457
00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:21.280
up, They pull out I don't
know, Old Aunt Bertha, whom nobody

458
00:38:21.320 --> 00:38:24.039
remembers. They pull her to the
side. She's mammified, she's wrapped.

459
00:38:24.280 --> 00:38:28.599
Still a scary moment. I guarantee
you they would have brought priests in.

460
00:38:28.960 --> 00:38:32.400
I guarantee you they had magical spells
ready to go. And though I don't

461
00:38:32.440 --> 00:38:37.960
have anybody with the diary saying dear
Diary, we opened up the family sepulcher

462
00:38:37.039 --> 00:38:39.800
and took out old Aunt Bertha.
Today, you know I'm not going to

463
00:38:39.880 --> 00:38:45.719
find that people aren't going to write
that down. There are texts that talk

464
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:52.119
about keeping the dead contained, encircling
their heart, making sure they don't go

465
00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:58.840
forth and cause harmed rituals, very
complicated rituals. I could read you from

466
00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:01.800
from part of one right now if
you want it, but really complicated magical

467
00:39:01.880 --> 00:39:08.519
spells that are making sure that the
dead are contained and controlled at the same

468
00:39:08.599 --> 00:39:15.280
time that they are divinized and appeased. So this is not just slipshod on

469
00:39:15.519 --> 00:39:21.679
a body out and reuse it.
They're they're doing sacred ceremonies. Yeah,

470
00:39:21.800 --> 00:39:29.800
is there a class of priests that
are you're reading about who are in charge

471
00:39:29.840 --> 00:39:34.840
of doing this work? No,
but it would just be a normal priest

472
00:39:34.880 --> 00:39:38.039
like any other priest. And here's
the other thing you mentioned Common, right,

473
00:39:38.440 --> 00:39:44.159
And I said we should talk about
this because Tudon Common's tomb was found

474
00:39:44.239 --> 00:39:51.000
intact. It was found intact because
no one remembered the nothing king at the

475
00:39:51.119 --> 00:39:55.639
end of a dynasty who was buried
quickly in the front foyer of someone else's

476
00:39:55.679 --> 00:40:00.360
tomb, I would argue. And
then all of the refuse of the tombs

477
00:40:00.400 --> 00:40:05.320
of other Ramsi kings as they're digging
them out, we're just dumped on top

478
00:40:05.360 --> 00:40:09.880
of his tomb and other So you
know, no one remembered to on Gommen.

479
00:40:09.960 --> 00:40:15.039
But the high priests of Amen at
this time of collapse at the end

480
00:40:15.079 --> 00:40:19.320
of the twentieth dynasty, moving into
the twenty first, they have the same

481
00:40:19.320 --> 00:40:22.400
problems with their regime. They're like, oh, we need to do this,

482
00:40:22.519 --> 00:40:24.559
let's get some gold. Oh we
have no gold. Why well,

483
00:40:24.599 --> 00:40:28.320
there's a war and the Nubians won't
let us in there, and we've lost

484
00:40:28.400 --> 00:40:30.360
this empire and oh crap, we
have no gold and They're like, well,

485
00:40:31.039 --> 00:40:34.960
we do have gold in the Valley
of the Kings. It told me

486
00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:38.119
right. So the High Priests of
Amen at the end of the twentieth and

487
00:40:38.199 --> 00:40:44.840
into the twenty first dynasty, they
marshal their own forces and legally reuse all

488
00:40:44.920 --> 00:40:49.000
of the expensive shit that was in
the tomb of Ramsay's the second, the

489
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:52.599
tomb of amenh hoots at the third
that they're the tombs looting? Is that

490
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:57.599
the right word? Clip? Oh? Reusing? Right? Reusing? I

491
00:40:57.599 --> 00:41:02.559
should slap my hand. I mean, I get why people say looting,

492
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:07.880
But when you're trying to keep a
regime running at end times and the sea

493
00:41:07.920 --> 00:41:13.119
people's and the Libyans are invading,
and everything is decentralized, and everything is

494
00:41:13.159 --> 00:41:17.159
a shit show, and you know
that you're sitting on a gold mine literally,

495
00:41:17.960 --> 00:41:21.519
why would you not go in there? Why would you not go in

496
00:41:21.559 --> 00:41:25.960
there and create magical spells such that
your kings and queens from whom you were

497
00:41:27.000 --> 00:41:30.679
taking this material understand that you were
there as their ritual caretakers. You are

498
00:41:30.800 --> 00:41:35.679
there to make sure that they are
kept safe by you, the priests.

499
00:41:35.760 --> 00:41:37.920
And it's the priests who are running
a lot of this because they have the

500
00:41:37.960 --> 00:41:42.719
restricted knowledge to do that. They
have the magical spells to pull this shit

501
00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:49.960
off. So it's much more complicated
when people do things they know they're not

502
00:41:50.000 --> 00:41:52.320
supposed to do but they have to
do, or they tell themselves they have

503
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:54.639
to do. Because they could have
been like, you know what, you

504
00:41:54.639 --> 00:41:58.639
guys, we can't keep this whole
religious thing going. Let's there't a whole

505
00:41:58.679 --> 00:42:01.800
new burial system which we don't bury
people with really nice stuff. But they

506
00:42:01.840 --> 00:42:05.599
didn't want to do that. They
weren't ready for that. They needed that

507
00:42:05.679 --> 00:42:09.559
social display still, so they did. They're like, Okay, we're gonna

508
00:42:09.639 --> 00:42:13.480
we're gonna take what we need to
take, but we're gonna do it right.

509
00:42:14.039 --> 00:42:16.719
We're gonna do it in a way
so that we appear to be innocent,

510
00:42:17.320 --> 00:42:22.079
we appear to be the ones who
are doing it right. It's the

511
00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:25.360
same, it's the same thing as
I mean, this is a very loose

512
00:42:25.400 --> 00:42:28.719
analogy, but I think it works. So, say you're bombing a bunch

513
00:42:28.760 --> 00:42:31.760
of people. You're bombing women and
children. I don't know in some places

514
00:42:31.760 --> 00:42:35.480
on this earth. But let's say
you're bombing the shit out of people and

515
00:42:35.519 --> 00:42:39.239
you say, well, we have
to bomb them because they're terrorists, and

516
00:42:39.280 --> 00:42:44.320
so you create an innocence for yourself
and then you get you get to bomb

517
00:42:44.360 --> 00:42:47.119
them. In this case, you
say, we have to take these coffins

518
00:42:47.159 --> 00:42:51.920
because we don't have any access to
this ourselves. This is the only way

519
00:42:51.920 --> 00:42:54.800
we can run the regime. And
so and we're going to be caretakers.

520
00:42:54.840 --> 00:42:59.159
We're doing the right thing. Someone
else is going to steal it. And

521
00:42:59.199 --> 00:43:01.119
there's the all over the Valley of
the Kings, and indeed there was,

522
00:43:01.199 --> 00:43:06.760
it's documented. If we don't do
it, someone else will. So they

523
00:43:06.800 --> 00:43:10.800
come up with a way to manufacture
their innocence. And that's what all of

524
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:15.280
this is. It is so mind
blowing when you have uncovered. Now one

525
00:43:15.320 --> 00:43:17.920
of the things I want you to
talk about, and this really blows me

526
00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:23.599
away, is the fact that you
know people who can afford intricate confidence or

527
00:43:23.639 --> 00:43:30.880
administrators, not the common folk.
And this is what's really what blows me

528
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.079
away. And also the pharaohs you
claim, and this is some kind of

529
00:43:35.480 --> 00:43:45.599
undercurrent of thought that the tux gold
funerally funeral mask was possibly reused. Yeah,

530
00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.039
when you wrote that, I was
like, it blew me out of

531
00:43:49.079 --> 00:43:52.960
the water, because that's one of
the most world I mean renowned masks ever

532
00:43:53.039 --> 00:43:59.800
discovered, if that was used from
an earlier pharaoh, if they just modified

533
00:43:59.840 --> 00:44:05.559
it or reused it, that's a
that's completely out of control. It's so

534
00:44:05.800 --> 00:44:08.039
out of control. So it means
that no one is above this. Now

535
00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:10.480
you'll know that when I said that
in the book, Cliff, that I

536
00:44:10.559 --> 00:44:14.599
cited someone else who is that?
Yeah, you actually said, but you'd

537
00:44:14.599 --> 00:44:22.079
never say they confirmed it. They're
speculating based on some odd uh jewelry on

538
00:44:22.119 --> 00:44:24.360
the lower part of it or something. It's a it's a name reuse.

539
00:44:24.440 --> 00:44:29.519
So you can actually see where text
has been erased and new text has been

540
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:34.440
added. And and so it's Nick
Reeves who has come up with this,

541
00:44:34.440 --> 00:44:37.440
this brilliant theory, and who has
done the examination of the mask as close

542
00:44:37.519 --> 00:44:42.679
up as he is able to do, and done the photography and documented and

543
00:44:42.760 --> 00:44:47.840
shown that there was another inscription underneath
this other inscription. And this is not

544
00:44:49.039 --> 00:44:51.679
something that I mean, let me
back up and then we'll get back.

545
00:44:52.000 --> 00:44:55.159
Let me back up a bit and
get to touch. This whole reuse thing

546
00:44:55.199 --> 00:44:59.920
is not something that people like.
They don't like it. And when I

547
00:45:00.000 --> 00:45:02.400
I say people, I mean Egyptologists
don't like it. I once presented this

548
00:45:02.440 --> 00:45:07.440
work like ten years ago at a
conference, and this old professor was like,

549
00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:12.079
oh, Kara, thank you for
such an imaginative discussion. I said,

550
00:45:12.400 --> 00:45:14.480
yeah, right, And I said, which part do you think I

551
00:45:14.480 --> 00:45:16.079
imagine? Because I can go through
each piece of evidence bit by bit,

552
00:45:16.159 --> 00:45:21.719
what would you like to talk about? Or I remember standing on a stage

553
00:45:21.760 --> 00:45:25.159
giving this talk in London and someone
accusing me of being racist against the Egyptians

554
00:45:25.159 --> 00:45:29.719
and saying that you know that I
was claiming that they were reusing things and

555
00:45:29.800 --> 00:45:37.920
doing these immoral activities. This reuse
is not something that serves the what is

556
00:45:37.960 --> 00:45:43.679
the current reuse of antiquity? Very
well, we're all reusing antiquity in our

557
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:46.800
way. You do it, I
do it. But Nation states reuse antiquity

558
00:45:46.840 --> 00:45:52.440
with glee. Right. They reuse
antiquity and say we are like the ancient

559
00:45:52.440 --> 00:45:55.519
people. Their glories are our glories. Right. It may be an ideological

560
00:45:55.559 --> 00:46:00.159
reuse or a patriotic reuse, but
they're still saying that Egypt that was,

561
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:05.719
that still exists and we have all
of that ability and know how for some

562
00:46:05.800 --> 00:46:07.840
idiot liked me to come in and
say, oh, and they reused all

563
00:46:07.880 --> 00:46:12.719
their coffins and Tunn Gommen's mask is
reused, it makes people's heads explode.

564
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:16.000
They're like, don't you dare?
Don't you dare? If that's why the

565
00:46:16.000 --> 00:46:19.960
good kings that caused so much trouble
right, I'm like, Oh, you're

566
00:46:20.039 --> 00:46:23.679
just reusing all of these ancient pharaohs
to make yourselves feel powerful and to support

567
00:46:23.679 --> 00:46:28.760
your own authoritarianism. People's heads exploded, they lost their minds. They're like,

568
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:35.400
how dare you speak this uneffable truth? But so when people talk about

569
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:38.559
the mask of tut' common, they
don't want to see the reuse. It's

570
00:46:38.599 --> 00:46:44.199
not like Molder and the X Files, you know, I want to believe

571
00:46:44.400 --> 00:46:49.519
people don't want to seek this.
It ruins everything. It ruins the fantasy,

572
00:46:50.239 --> 00:46:53.239
the fantasy or the fetishization that we
have put into our minds of what

573
00:46:53.280 --> 00:46:59.320
these coffins were meant to be,
the fetishization that the Egyptians were obsessed with

574
00:46:59.440 --> 00:47:05.320
death, and that they put all
of their know how and extraordinary abilities into

575
00:47:05.360 --> 00:47:08.920
burying their dead with such care and
attention. And when somebody comes in and

576
00:47:08.920 --> 00:47:10.880
says, yeah, but when times
got tough, they went in and they

577
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.880
recycled all of this stuff and reuse
it. All them. People are like,

578
00:47:14.960 --> 00:47:16.360
no, they didn't, they would
never do such a thing. And

579
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:21.000
I'm like, seriously, the world
is ending. You don't have any income,

580
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:23.400
and you're not going to open up
your basement and take out the gold

581
00:47:23.440 --> 00:47:28.239
that great grandpa put there. Really
give me a break. They're like,

582
00:47:28.280 --> 00:47:30.679
well, great Grandpa's buried down there
and he's holding the gold like clutched in

583
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.159
his dead body. I would never. I'm like, yeah, you would,

584
00:47:34.239 --> 00:47:37.559
You totally would. You would bring
somebody in, a specialist who would

585
00:47:37.559 --> 00:47:42.079
be able to help you deal with
dead great grandpa. Whatever you believed dead

586
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:44.840
great Grandpa could do to you.
You would go in and you would take

587
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:49.519
that gold and you would make use
of it. It's the most moral solution

588
00:47:49.679 --> 00:47:55.960
in a time period of great upheaval. We're going to take a short commercial

589
00:47:57.000 --> 00:48:01.639
break to allow our sponsors to identify
them selves, and we will return shortly

590
00:48:01.719 --> 00:48:07.800
with my guest today, doctor Karraconey, talking about her new book, Recycling

591
00:48:07.960 --> 00:48:54.119
for Death. We'll be right back. My guest today is doctor Caracuney.

592
00:48:54.239 --> 00:49:00.199
She is an egyptologist and a professor
of archaeology at at the University of Los

593
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:06.280
Angeles in Southern California and her new
book, Recycling for Death is really a

594
00:49:06.320 --> 00:49:13.280
shocking look at the end of the
dynastics and what they were doing with their

595
00:49:13.280 --> 00:49:20.639
coffins and other funeral items. Funny
how you described that, because you're talking

596
00:49:20.639 --> 00:49:24.960
about the decline of the Egyptian Empire, and it's pretty ugly if they're doing

597
00:49:25.000 --> 00:49:29.880
what you're talking about. And I
can see why other Egyptologists are like,

598
00:49:29.920 --> 00:49:31.239
we don't want to talk about that. We wish you wouldn't bring it up

599
00:49:31.280 --> 00:49:37.840
in your book. It's true,
and all these bodies are so carefully rewrapped.

600
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:43.559
We have the body of Ramses,
the second SETI, the first amenhuts

601
00:49:43.599 --> 00:49:47.360
of the third. That's crazy.
The reason we have those bodies is because

602
00:49:47.400 --> 00:49:52.760
the high priests of Amen went into
their tombs before the robbers did, took

603
00:49:52.800 --> 00:49:58.159
out all of the rich stuff,
unwrapped their bodies, took all of the

604
00:49:58.239 --> 00:50:02.039
jewels and gold and all of the
precious stuff off of them, re wrapped

605
00:50:02.119 --> 00:50:08.679
them, heard them, re ritually, oh serified them, put them in

606
00:50:08.760 --> 00:50:14.199
redone coffins with their names on them, and kept them safe. They kept

607
00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.519
them safe in a tomb on the
side of the cliff of Dero Bahri,

608
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:21.760
so safe that it was intact until
I think eighteen ninety eight. Wall.

609
00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:25.239
Where did you find that passage in
a script or a scroll or a papyrus,

610
00:50:25.440 --> 00:50:29.480
there's none of You can't expect these
things to be written down. You

611
00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:32.000
have to, as an archaeologist,
work with everything that's available. So you're

612
00:50:32.039 --> 00:50:37.239
assuming that this priest did this.
Well, the priest wrote down on the

613
00:50:37.239 --> 00:50:43.000
lids of the coffins that I high
priest and reocerifying this body. We rewrapped

614
00:50:43.000 --> 00:50:47.079
Billy Bob, and he's gonna be
here to the We are recoffining him,

615
00:50:47.119 --> 00:50:51.440
We are reocerifying him. They say, they're oh, serifying him, right.

616
00:50:51.800 --> 00:50:52.760
They don't say, oh, and
while I did that, I took

617
00:50:52.800 --> 00:50:59.199
all his stuff. You're not gonna
say that. You're not gonna say that.

618
00:50:59.199 --> 00:51:01.000
You're gonna be like I did the
good thing and I kept him safe.

619
00:51:01.239 --> 00:51:06.159
Right, Okay, now going back
to type. Right now, I'm

620
00:51:06.199 --> 00:51:09.880
still blown away. I think,
Kara, this is something that really needs

621
00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:15.440
to be broadcast, because I know
if people knew. I mean, I

622
00:51:15.480 --> 00:51:21.639
was just in Cairo and the display
at the Cairo Museum is this mask.

623
00:51:22.079 --> 00:51:27.440
And the Egyptians are so uptight that
they scream at you for not moving along

624
00:51:27.920 --> 00:51:32.920
and no photos now, and this
is like an icon that they're just leading

625
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:39.079
on. Yeah, I mean,
and why because it's made of solid gold,

626
00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:44.920
we wouldn't care so and it's gorgeous, right if it weren't dropped at

627
00:51:44.920 --> 00:51:49.039
gorgeous and if it weren't made of
solid gold, they don't think we would

628
00:51:49.039 --> 00:51:52.480
care so much, it really don't. I mean, then the bust of

629
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:54.800
Nefertiti is gorgeous. It's not made
of solid gold. It's made a very

630
00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:59.760
simple limestone, but it's treated very
much in the same way in the Berlin

631
00:52:00.039 --> 00:52:05.440
get it is and it is that
fetishization, right, this piece has been

632
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:12.119
fetishized. Fetishized objects are the least
studied in Egyptology. The more important they

633
00:52:12.119 --> 00:52:15.280
are, the less ironically we know
about them, because the less access you're

634
00:52:15.320 --> 00:52:19.480
given, What am I going to
do? Apply to work on the mask

635
00:52:19.519 --> 00:52:21.199
of to not Gomen? And they're
just going to be like, sure,

636
00:52:21.320 --> 00:52:23.840
Kara, here, let's clear out
all the tourists so we can open the

637
00:52:23.880 --> 00:52:27.880
case so you can look at it. No one has given you permission,

638
00:52:28.000 --> 00:52:31.719
Not even Zayiehl Watts will give you
permission. There was a wonderful, wonderful

639
00:52:31.719 --> 00:52:37.000
book just published by Christian Ekmann and
Katie Broschat, two German scholars conservators,

640
00:52:37.320 --> 00:52:42.320
and they were able to work on
the mask for many days. And the

641
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:45.719
reason they were able to is because
the mask was damaged about I think it

642
00:52:45.800 --> 00:52:46.880
was like four or five years ago. I don't know how many years ago,

643
00:52:47.079 --> 00:52:51.000
but they were trying to change a
light bulb in the case and the

644
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:53.519
mask and then somebody grabbed it.
I don't know the details. Again,

645
00:52:53.519 --> 00:52:57.159
people don't write. Some of the
jewels came off and they needed to be

646
00:52:57.199 --> 00:53:00.039
glued on again or something. The
beard, the beard came off. They're

647
00:53:00.079 --> 00:53:02.360
not going to be like, dear
Diary, I harmed the mask of Too

648
00:53:02.559 --> 00:53:08.159
Gobbin today. You know, we
broke it exactly. They glued the beard

649
00:53:08.199 --> 00:53:12.639
back on with this epoxy and everyone
could see. So the tourist the next

650
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:15.079
day and everyone coming in is like, what's that. The mask doesn't look

651
00:53:15.239 --> 00:53:20.559
right? And then word started to
spread that the mask had obviously been broken.

652
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:23.480
Whoever opened the case didn't you know
there was damage, and so they

653
00:53:23.800 --> 00:53:28.119
shut everything down huge like google this. Everyone can google this. It was

654
00:53:28.159 --> 00:53:30.400
a crazy thing. And they took
the mask off display. It's the only

655
00:53:30.440 --> 00:53:35.760
time it's been off display. I
think since it I don't know, you

656
00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.440
would have to check, but for
like decades, right, they bring it

657
00:53:38.480 --> 00:53:44.320
off display. Christiane Ekunakattie shot work
on this mask. They carefully, painstakingly

658
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:49.239
manually remove that epoxy with their little
the little metal picks like you get the

659
00:53:49.320 --> 00:53:52.079
dentist, right, and then they
put it back on and they realized it

660
00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:55.199
can be reattached with a little hook, that no epoxy was needed. You

661
00:53:55.239 --> 00:53:58.400
didn't even need to do it.
I think they did use something, but

662
00:53:58.440 --> 00:54:04.079
they didn't need to. And they
were able to photograph that mask, document

663
00:54:04.119 --> 00:54:07.440
it extensively and inside and out,
and they worked on that mask. So

664
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:15.639
now we have a situation in which
an Egyptologist named Nicholas Reeves fees traces of

665
00:54:15.760 --> 00:54:21.320
old texts in a cartouche and a
longer cartouche than is there for two dot

666
00:54:21.360 --> 00:54:24.840
comment documents the traces and says,
I think this is a reuse name.

667
00:54:24.880 --> 00:54:29.400
And look the name that I think
it should be on caperat fits in it

668
00:54:29.480 --> 00:54:32.159
perfectly. This is how it would
work. Other Egyptologists look at it.

669
00:54:32.199 --> 00:54:37.079
Are Egyptologists like MARKA. Bold Dieter
Arnold. They're like, yeah, we

670
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.920
agree, you are correct. That
name could fit into this Gold is easily

671
00:54:42.000 --> 00:54:46.239
reused. And you can look if
someone gave me access to twenty four care

672
00:54:46.239 --> 00:54:51.440
At Gold and I had this pencil
eraser, you know this, this pencil

673
00:54:51.480 --> 00:54:53.719
eraser, and I rubbed on the
text of the gold. They inscribed text

674
00:54:54.119 --> 00:54:58.480
for like twenty minutes. I bet
I could flatten that out to put a

675
00:54:58.519 --> 00:55:00.400
new text in, because that's how
soft twenty four Cara gold is. Right,

676
00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:07.239
Yeah, it's a malleable thing,
easily reused. Where Nick I think

677
00:55:07.280 --> 00:55:13.519
pushes it too far is he says
that the portrait the mask was also changed

678
00:55:13.880 --> 00:55:19.199
when they reinscribed it for tud Doon
Cong. The actual features of the face

679
00:55:19.559 --> 00:55:24.880
mask, the of the Golden Mummy
mask itself was taken out and reused,

680
00:55:25.159 --> 00:55:29.880
and there is no evidence of that. And Katya and Christian and Katya prove

681
00:55:29.960 --> 00:55:32.519
that right. They're like, this
mask was a part of the mask originally.

682
00:55:32.800 --> 00:55:36.559
There's no taking out and putting it
back in. We don't see that.

683
00:55:37.039 --> 00:55:42.079
What they don't talk about more extensively
is the Egyptological historical portion of it,

684
00:55:42.360 --> 00:55:45.199
the hieroglyphic portion of it, that
is, taking out one text and

685
00:55:45.199 --> 00:55:50.159
putting in another, and what traces
of an old text. Look like they

686
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:52.519
don't talk about that because that's not
their jam, that's not their specialization.

687
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:58.119
That's Nick Reeves, Jim, that's
his specialization. So we have two people

688
00:55:58.519 --> 00:56:04.159
with two different specializations talking about the
same object with diametrically opposed opinions. One

689
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:07.840
saying no, it wasn't reused because
the face mask wasn't taken out. That's

690
00:56:07.880 --> 00:56:10.960
the conservators, and then one saying
it was absolutely reused because I can see

691
00:56:12.000 --> 00:56:15.280
this old trace of a name here
that's Nick Reeves. Is there any guesstimate

692
00:56:15.400 --> 00:56:20.679
as to who the unknown perhaps an
unknown pharaoh of some kind. Oh?

693
00:56:20.719 --> 00:56:24.320
Absolutely, the name of the pharaoh
is unk heprew Ray. Oh my god,

694
00:56:24.440 --> 00:56:27.639
so he actually, I mean it. You can't read it on the

695
00:56:27.679 --> 00:56:31.039
two uncommon mask by no means there's
only traces. When you reused, usually

696
00:56:31.119 --> 00:56:35.960
do so quite completely. But the
name of on Caperray would have fit in

697
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:40.320
this space very convincingly and would have
indeed needed a longer cartouche. So it's

698
00:56:40.599 --> 00:56:47.880
part of the king tut lineage is
in early pharaoh of unknown king on Kepperray.

699
00:56:47.960 --> 00:56:52.320
The only places that you see there's
two places for on Caperrat. Now

700
00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:55.800
we're going down a rabbit hole.
That a deep one. And you guys

701
00:56:55.840 --> 00:57:00.960
can google this stuff too, and
also look for Reeve's article on the reuse

702
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:05.119
of that mask. He publishes it
online freely so you can you can find

703
00:57:05.159 --> 00:57:08.679
it. But in Nicholas re used
tun on common funery mask reuse whatever,

704
00:57:08.719 --> 00:57:15.679
you'll get it. But on caprew
Ray is either the throne name of Nefertiti

705
00:57:15.760 --> 00:57:23.679
as co king on Caparrat nefer Nefrewray
or a Caperrat is the thrown name of

706
00:57:23.920 --> 00:57:30.039
smenka Rey, the king who ruled
after Tude on Common. Sorry, sorry,

707
00:57:30.119 --> 00:57:35.159
right before you can't be after sorry
right before to common and after the

708
00:57:35.280 --> 00:57:38.119
death of Akanat. Did you say
I'm misunderstood you? Did you say it

709
00:57:38.159 --> 00:57:45.159
could have been his mother's funerally funeral
mask? Never tity is probably not his

710
00:57:45.400 --> 00:57:49.239
mother. Never tit, I argue
in my book When Women Ruled the World,

711
00:57:49.480 --> 00:57:52.639
is his grandmother? Because we were
going on so many rabbit holes,

712
00:57:52.800 --> 00:57:59.239
so how do we screw that one
up? Okay? So common is that

713
00:57:59.360 --> 00:58:01.519
his body showed that he's the product
of incest. Yeah, because it is

714
00:58:01.840 --> 00:58:08.440
where the deformities, Yes, my
cleft palate and his club foot and the

715
00:58:08.559 --> 00:58:13.519
genetics suggests that he's the product of
incests. There is no information anywhere that

716
00:58:13.719 --> 00:58:17.599
suggests that Nefertiti was his mother,
nor that Nefertiti was Akanatan's sister. There

717
00:58:17.719 --> 00:58:22.239
is a whole lot of information that
proves that Akinnatin did elevate two of his

718
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:27.159
daughters to be great royal wife.
And I argue that toun on Common was

719
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:34.280
the product of a father daughter sexual
experience. So tun Common is the product

720
00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:37.960
of incest, but not the incest
of brothers sister, which is more common

721
00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:45.800
perhaps. And yeah, so Nefrititi
is not his mother, but Neverertiity was

722
00:58:45.039 --> 00:58:49.840
co king, and I would say
mostly Gyptologists agree with this, that she

723
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:54.599
was co king as an keeper rey
neff for nephrew Autten and nick Reeves argues

724
00:58:54.639 --> 00:58:59.800
that this funerary set, mummy mask, and maybe some of the coffins,

725
00:59:00.000 --> 00:59:06.079
certainly the knopic chest and canopic coffinets, the little golden coffinets to hold the

726
00:59:06.239 --> 00:59:09.280
organs, that those were made for
on caprew Ray, that is, for

727
00:59:09.400 --> 00:59:16.599
Nefertiti as cocaine. Nick Reeves also
argues that men care on caprew Ray's men

728
00:59:16.679 --> 00:59:22.800
care. I know these names are
very difficult. Was Neffertiti as sole king

729
00:59:22.119 --> 00:59:28.800
after the death of akanant there I
would say mostly Egyptologists don't agree. I

730
00:59:28.920 --> 00:59:31.079
do agree with him, but there's
very little data for it. So I'm

731
00:59:31.119 --> 00:59:35.440
not going to like stake my life
on this is not this is the information

732
00:59:35.559 --> 00:59:39.159
that's not going to see the light
because you go to Cairo and if you

733
00:59:39.199 --> 00:59:44.920
were to put a little new thought
on the death mask of tut we don't

734
00:59:44.960 --> 00:59:47.639
think it's really him. It's you
know, it's going to just cause a

735
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:52.880
shit storm people know. So people
don't want this to happen. Indeed,

736
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:58.840
when Nick Reeves theories came out,
they held conferences about it, and Egyptologists

737
00:59:58.880 --> 01:00:02.880
who were egypt not Egyptian, German, French, whoever, are there saying

738
01:00:02.920 --> 01:00:07.679
that Nick Greaves is wrong because it
serves people to say that he's wrong because

739
01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:13.400
it allows them to maintain their access. Is American, Nick Greaves is British.

740
01:00:13.760 --> 01:00:16.800
Oh okay, so he's in England, well okay, but it's still

741
01:00:17.079 --> 01:00:22.679
it's still in a post colonial Egypt. Very problematic for somebody who's not Egyptian

742
01:00:22.719 --> 01:00:29.039
to come along with grand theories that
poke holes in the greatness of a regime.

743
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:32.039
It's a problem. It's a political
problem, right, so you can

744
01:00:32.119 --> 01:00:37.039
come along with amazing intellectual theories that
people will be like, no, not

745
01:00:37.159 --> 01:00:40.880
touching that today because it's not politically
savory. It's not it's not useful for

746
01:00:40.960 --> 01:00:45.199
people to touch. So it's the
most interesting thing in the world for me

747
01:00:45.760 --> 01:00:50.199
because you can you can go to
that mass today. I was just there

748
01:00:50.280 --> 01:00:52.719
and I saw the little traces of
the old name. They are clear to

749
01:00:52.960 --> 01:00:57.599
see, you mean, in a
display case, you can see them with

750
01:00:57.599 --> 01:01:00.840
the naked eye. They're right there. Oh, it's down below. It's

751
01:01:00.079 --> 01:01:04.800
down below, right on the shoulder. So if oh, look he's facing

752
01:01:04.840 --> 01:01:07.840
out, it's on his left shoulder. And if you look at the cartoush

753
01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:12.480
on the left shoulder, you will
see traces of another name. Google the

754
01:01:12.559 --> 01:01:16.800
Nick Reefs article all those traces.
He marks them out and very careful uh

755
01:01:17.079 --> 01:01:22.599
images in his article infographics, et
cetera. And and you'll be able to

756
01:01:22.639 --> 01:01:24.760
see what it is I'm talking about. And how on capru ray fits in

757
01:01:24.800 --> 01:01:29.760
there perfectly. How easy it is
to just you know, I could take

758
01:01:29.800 --> 01:01:32.679
my fit my thumb and rub it
over that gold for a couple hours and

759
01:01:32.840 --> 01:01:38.360
probably be able to come up with
the same the same call recycling for dead,

760
01:01:38.840 --> 01:01:43.039
and my guest has been recycling for
death, for death exactly for death.

761
01:01:43.039 --> 01:01:46.800
Excuse me, uh Kara. I
want to conclude with and by the

762
01:01:46.840 --> 01:01:51.599
way, for those of you listening, this book has the most beautiful photographs.

763
01:01:52.239 --> 01:01:55.320
The back of the book has just
and you took all of these photographs

764
01:01:55.800 --> 01:02:01.119
my team and I. Yeah,
they are amazing, clear one hundred and

765
01:02:01.320 --> 01:02:06.599
eighty photographs. Yeah, and I
have to say I applaud the publisher for

766
01:02:06.719 --> 01:02:10.320
actually not going black and white on
anything. No, whole book is colored.

767
01:02:10.360 --> 01:02:14.480
Were originally black and white. Yeah. Yeah, it's also amazing.

768
01:02:14.719 --> 01:02:15.800
So the only way to do it, well, I had to get a

769
01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:19.960
subvention. Do you know what a
subvention is? No, this is a

770
01:02:20.199 --> 01:02:23.679
this is an academic book. Academic
books don't make money, right, Yeah,

771
01:02:23.760 --> 01:02:27.079
no, I know. This is
a this is a research book.

772
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:30.320
It's not really made for the general
public. And also, by the way,

773
01:02:30.400 --> 01:02:32.199
it costs one hundred and fifty bucks. You want to get a guy,

774
01:02:32.239 --> 01:02:36.119
I think is it one twenty five? But with that, yeah,

775
01:02:36.199 --> 01:02:39.079
it'll be one fifty dollars. But
I had to pay fifteen thousand dollars of

776
01:02:39.159 --> 01:02:43.840
my own research funds. To make
sure that that price stayed as low as

777
01:02:43.880 --> 01:02:47.840
it is. Otherwise this book would
be inaccessible for anybody. Yeah, that's

778
01:02:47.840 --> 01:02:51.920
how academic publishing works. I love
that your mouth is still open. You

779
01:02:52.039 --> 01:02:55.880
may close it, no, because
I was looking at Your assistant sent me

780
01:02:57.159 --> 01:03:00.320
the digital version, which is what
most people can get for forty bucks.

781
01:03:00.400 --> 01:03:05.480
It's forty bucks, I don't remember, Yeah, but it's really really worth

782
01:03:05.480 --> 01:03:08.920
it. What I wanted to finish
with, Kara is and you spend a

783
01:03:08.960 --> 01:03:16.960
great deal of time with this.
The techniques that were used for reusing the

784
01:03:17.119 --> 01:03:22.440
coffin, In other words, what
did you find? Did they scratch off

785
01:03:22.599 --> 01:03:28.880
the earlier work and then plaster it
and then paint over That's what seems like.

786
01:03:29.079 --> 01:03:35.000
But your early versions, the coffin
that you saw at the British Museum,

787
01:03:35.039 --> 01:03:37.639
that kind of sparked this whole thing. Yeah, looks like they just

788
01:03:37.880 --> 01:03:43.920
covered it with plastic and the painted
over it. So anything you can imagine

789
01:03:43.960 --> 01:03:46.320
as possible here. It's the same
with the wedding dress. Right. So

790
01:03:46.480 --> 01:03:52.480
the wedding dress, like say,
you're the exact sime, same size as

791
01:03:52.559 --> 01:03:55.199
Mama when she was married at twenty
one, right, and you fit into

792
01:03:55.199 --> 01:03:59.360
it and you're like Mom like fits
and there's no alterations necessary. You just

793
01:03:59.440 --> 01:04:02.480
wear that dress. Say the dress
is horribly ugly, and you're like,

794
01:04:02.599 --> 01:04:05.840
I'll wear it, but I need
to redo it completely. Then you're gonna

795
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:11.920
take it apart and have the seams
to just redo it all and it'll look

796
01:04:12.000 --> 01:04:14.360
like a different dress but made of
the same material. So you can have

797
01:04:15.280 --> 01:04:20.119
either side of that spectrum and everything
in between. So essentially the easiest way

798
01:04:20.159 --> 01:04:26.000
to reuse something if you really don't
have any funding or ability to bring in

799
01:04:26.079 --> 01:04:29.760
a priest, or you're not really
even worried about the angry dead, you

800
01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:31.760
just take out the body and you
put a new body in, You do

801
01:04:31.880 --> 01:04:35.880
your funeral, you're done. That's
it. There are coffins that are of

802
01:04:36.000 --> 01:04:40.159
a belonging to a woman of a
certain period and there's a man of a

803
01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:43.639
later period buried in the coffin,
or a vice versa. Right, so

804
01:04:43.800 --> 01:04:45.679
you are able to say that coffin
was not made for that body inside.

805
01:04:46.000 --> 01:04:49.320
That that's a reuse that they didn't
modify. But they didn't modify the coffin

806
01:04:49.440 --> 01:04:54.360
at all. That's the far end
of the spectrum, right wow. Or

807
01:04:55.199 --> 01:05:00.159
you take that coffin down to its
wooden pieces. The other side of that

808
01:05:00.199 --> 01:05:02.079
spectrum is like, I don't want
anyone to know I've reused this. This

809
01:05:02.280 --> 01:05:05.760
is a really great coffin, but
I don't I can't let anyone know.

810
01:05:06.280 --> 01:05:10.400
I'm gonna break it down into wood
and I'm going to rebuild it. And

811
01:05:10.440 --> 01:05:13.760
the only way I would know that
you have re used that coffin is by

812
01:05:13.880 --> 01:05:16.559
carbon dating it, which I have
done and going, I got you that

813
01:05:16.760 --> 01:05:20.239
wood is way too old for the
coffin that you're in. You reuse that

814
01:05:20.360 --> 01:05:24.400
wood? Was it coffin wood?
I can look at some of the wooden

815
01:05:24.440 --> 01:05:29.519
planks and make the argument that it
was coffin wood that they reuse. Carbon

816
01:05:29.599 --> 01:05:34.880
dating individuals that you're suspicious individual coffins
me one hundred. It cost me what

817
01:05:35.119 --> 01:05:40.719
like fifty each carbon date that you
see Irvine because I'm UCLA, so I

818
01:05:40.800 --> 01:05:43.519
am able to get well, he's
got a discount. I can get a

819
01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:46.239
disk out. But if you come
in with like ten samples, good luck

820
01:05:46.280 --> 01:05:48.440
to you. I mean it's gonna
cost you thousands of dollars to test one

821
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.840
of these coffin. Sure, I
gotta really want it. I gotta really

822
01:05:51.920 --> 01:05:56.480
want to test that coffin. But
so then like the one in the British

823
01:05:56.559 --> 01:06:00.679
Museum, they they really wanted no
one to know that they had reused it,

824
01:06:00.119 --> 01:06:04.159
and so they but they didn't know
how to reuse yet. Remember that

825
01:06:04.280 --> 01:06:10.079
reuse isn't common except in times of
crisis. That coffin in the British Museum

826
01:06:10.199 --> 01:06:14.760
is mid twentieth dynasty, right when
the coffin reuse is beginning, when the

827
01:06:14.840 --> 01:06:16.639
crisis is beginning. And so they're
like, okay, well we're going to

828
01:06:16.679 --> 01:06:21.599
reuse this coffin. And they just
take the coffin as decorated peace and put

829
01:06:21.679 --> 01:06:28.440
new plaster on it and redecorate it. And because they varnished these pieces,

830
01:06:29.119 --> 01:06:32.639
the plaster started to the new layer
plaster started to pop off the old layer

831
01:06:32.719 --> 01:06:36.039
plaster, which makes it so easy
for me to see the reuse. I'm

832
01:06:36.079 --> 01:06:40.079
like, oh, there's a whole
decorated panel underneath this, and there's a

833
01:06:40.199 --> 01:06:43.840
new decorated panel right on top of
it. That's what they would do maybe

834
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:46.559
in the mid twentieth dynasty. By
the time they got better at reuse,

835
01:06:47.280 --> 01:06:53.320
they were chiseling the entire decorative surface
off, so all plastered, painted,

836
01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:59.199
varnished layers were removed and they would
put a new plastered, painted varnish layer

837
01:06:59.559 --> 01:07:03.960
over it. In such cases.
There is a wonderful coffin in Florence that

838
01:07:04.039 --> 01:07:11.599
I published a couple of times that
has on it this twenty first Dynasty decoration.

839
01:07:12.119 --> 01:07:15.199
And I'm crawling around this coffin with
my flashlight looking for what I can

840
01:07:15.280 --> 01:07:16.239
see, and I get to the
back of the head and I go,

841
01:07:16.360 --> 01:07:23.000
ha, guys, there is this
tiny little spot of the old striped headdress

842
01:07:23.320 --> 01:07:27.599
that does not match the new headdress, that is a centimeter lower in stratigraphic

843
01:07:27.719 --> 01:07:30.880
depth than the new headdress that they
missed. They had chiseled off all the

844
01:07:30.920 --> 01:07:33.800
old decoration, but they did it
fast. They didn't really care, and

845
01:07:33.840 --> 01:07:36.800
they missed that little spot, And
that little spot was there for me to

846
01:07:36.880 --> 01:07:42.559
see and go, Okay, this
piece was reused. They did take off

847
01:07:42.639 --> 01:07:45.800
the old decoration to reuse it,
but they didn't take it all off.

848
01:07:46.039 --> 01:07:50.199
Isn't a nine chance that they would
leave part of the previous because it's a

849
01:07:50.559 --> 01:07:55.800
family heirloom, so exactly, go
on, I know, yeah, they

850
01:07:55.840 --> 01:08:00.440
would leave it so that there was
a marker to know that this is being

851
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:09.960
reused and it's ceremonial ceremonially being repurposed, reused for this new person. Yeah,

852
01:08:10.039 --> 01:08:13.159
so there are a couple of cases
like this, not enough for me

853
01:08:13.280 --> 01:08:16.199
to stake my life on it,
but there is. But it's let me

854
01:08:16.239 --> 01:08:19.600
give you the example. So there's
a wonderful coffin set in the Metropolitan Museum

855
01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:23.760
of Art in New York, used
to be in Looks or was found in

856
01:08:24.239 --> 01:08:28.600
thebes as was and it's belongs to
a woman, and it belongs to a

857
01:08:28.720 --> 01:08:33.079
woman whose name is Nauni. And
if you look at the the set carefully,

858
01:08:33.159 --> 01:08:36.399
you see that another name is there, the name of a woman named

859
01:08:36.439 --> 01:08:42.600
Ta Bechnet. And and if you
look at their at the papyrus scroll that

860
01:08:42.800 --> 01:08:46.880
was found with this woman, Nauni, Ta Beechinet is Nauni's mother. And

861
01:08:47.079 --> 01:08:54.119
so the coffin that Nauni is buried
in was reused, and I can see

862
01:08:54.159 --> 01:08:57.000
it. It's reused. It's probably
reused two or three times. You can

863
01:08:57.119 --> 01:09:00.720
you can see that number of reuses. But the name reused is obvious,

864
01:09:00.880 --> 01:09:03.960
and they left it obvious, I
would argue on purpose. They left it

865
01:09:04.039 --> 01:09:10.840
obvious because Nauni when she died,
when the family repurposed that coffin for her,

866
01:09:10.920 --> 01:09:15.960
and almost certainly took Nauni's mother out
of the coffin in a ritual fashion,

867
01:09:15.560 --> 01:09:18.760
making sure she wasn't angry, making
sure she was protected and divinized in

868
01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:21.800
all of these things, kind of
like the high Priest did for Ramses the

869
01:09:21.840 --> 01:09:29.199
Second himself. They left her name
on it when they reinscribed Naaluni's name.

870
01:09:29.520 --> 01:09:32.720
I would argue that that was purposeful. I can't prove it. I can't.

871
01:09:32.720 --> 01:09:35.359
I don't have a time machine to
be like, excuse me, sir,

872
01:09:35.840 --> 01:09:40.119
when you did this? Did you
do so purposefully because you wanted my

873
01:09:40.439 --> 01:09:43.840
daughter to stay together? What were
you thinking? I will never know that.

874
01:09:44.399 --> 01:09:46.079
I have to be sanguine with knowing
that there are things that I will

875
01:09:46.159 --> 01:09:54.560
never know. But the evidence suggests
that this mother daughter pair were buried with

876
01:09:54.760 --> 01:09:59.520
legal reuse, the mother first,
the daughter second, and that for the

877
01:09:59.640 --> 01:10:03.119
daughter they kept the name of the
mother because you know, there's, for

878
01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:10.159
example, there's Middle Kingdom coffin texts
that are spells for how to find your

879
01:10:10.199 --> 01:10:13.399
loved ones in the afterlife, Like
this is something we're all gonna need,

880
01:10:13.479 --> 01:10:15.039
right, We're all gonna die,
You're gonna die, I'm gonna die.

881
01:10:15.479 --> 01:10:19.119
What's the thing that people are most
afraid of with death, losing everyone they

882
01:10:19.199 --> 01:10:24.159
love, losing their society, losing
their loved ones. That's the thing that

883
01:10:24.279 --> 01:10:28.840
gets us right. What better thing
than a spell to find your loved ones

884
01:10:28.880 --> 01:10:30.199
in the afterlife. I can't think
of anything that I would want more.

885
01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:34.079
I'm taking one that coffin text with
me, right, and this is a

886
01:10:34.119 --> 01:10:38.880
way of providing that on the coffin. It's not a coffin text of the

887
01:10:38.920 --> 01:10:42.279
Middle Kingdom. This is a New
Kingdom coffin, but it's the same kind

888
01:10:42.359 --> 01:10:47.520
of thing. It's that that mother
daughter connection. And I can almost guarantee

889
01:10:48.159 --> 01:10:55.000
that at some point daughter was interred
in the tomb with mother's body right next

890
01:10:55.039 --> 01:10:59.239
to her. She wasn't found that
way by archaeologists, but she probably was

891
01:10:59.359 --> 01:11:01.640
for some amount of time. And
then it gives you the understanding that these

892
01:11:01.720 --> 01:11:06.479
coffins were not meant to be owned
permanently by the dead, but were rather

893
01:11:06.680 --> 01:11:13.039
meant to be transformative devices so that
the dead could become the osiris they were

894
01:11:13.079 --> 01:11:15.720
meant to be, to become the
sun god that they were meant to be,

895
01:11:15.319 --> 01:11:21.199
and become that ah that activated an
effective dead spirit. Then once that

896
01:11:21.319 --> 01:11:25.359
had happened. You could take that
coffin back from them. The work that

897
01:11:25.479 --> 01:11:30.079
that coffin needed to do, the
hard work had already been done. Is

898
01:11:30.119 --> 01:11:32.079
it better to leave it with the
dead forever? Of course? But if

899
01:11:32.079 --> 01:11:38.560
you cannot do that, then you'll
come up with other solutions. You gave

900
01:11:38.600 --> 01:11:45.479
an example earlier of a crypt or
tomb or something where there is the coffin

901
01:11:46.079 --> 01:11:49.880
and next to it are the mummies. Yeah, is this something that's a

902
01:11:50.039 --> 01:12:00.399
fairly regular occurrence with say administrators or
I don't know. I don't know if

903
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:03.600
there's any pharaohs that have that situation, but I mean that would be a

904
01:12:03.720 --> 01:12:09.199
real head scratcher. Without this data
that you're presenting, you kind of fill

905
01:12:09.239 --> 01:12:12.840
in the gap on a little bit
of that. Well, it's tricky.

906
01:12:13.439 --> 01:12:16.359
First, there's very few in tac
tombs. There's very few tombs that have

907
01:12:16.600 --> 01:12:23.279
their coffins remaining in place, nested
as they were placed there at some point

908
01:12:23.359 --> 01:12:28.119
in antiquity. Because looting, and
I mean real looting is a regular thing.

909
01:12:28.239 --> 01:12:30.479
People are always looking for a coffin
to sell. Coffins are worth money

910
01:12:30.560 --> 01:12:34.960
now there we use they're putting museums. People pay top dollar for them,

911
01:12:35.399 --> 01:12:42.760
right, So people are looking for
these things to sell, and so it's

912
01:12:42.800 --> 01:12:46.600
a very rare thing for an archaeologist
to find an in tac tomb. The

913
01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:53.439
Theban tune one was found intact,
so the archaeologists who published it say,

914
01:12:53.600 --> 01:12:57.479
right, and found it. And
yet twenty two bodies, only nine of

915
01:12:57.520 --> 01:13:00.119
them in coffins. When I publish
that my opinion on that tune the first

916
01:13:00.199 --> 01:13:05.159
time, I said, oh,
the poorer cousins are buried with the richer

917
01:13:05.239 --> 01:13:10.800
cousins because they'll be able to participate
in their fancier life. Because not everyone

918
01:13:10.880 --> 01:13:14.479
got a coffin in inachi an egia, five percent or less got a coffin

919
01:13:14.600 --> 01:13:18.840
set in a really really this is
some really scarce materiality. There is not

920
01:13:18.960 --> 01:13:24.199
much wood in Egypt, that much
wood. This is a social separator.

921
01:13:24.279 --> 01:13:27.560
This is a way for rich people
to be like, I am rich.

922
01:13:27.680 --> 01:13:30.760
You are not. This is my
mansion, you're outside. This is my

923
01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:33.600
gated area. These are my security
guards. The coffin does that. It

924
01:13:33.760 --> 01:13:40.800
provides a way for certain part of
society to become a superhero of the dead,

925
01:13:40.880 --> 01:13:43.640
if you like, and everyone else
just gets to decay in the crown.

926
01:13:45.479 --> 01:13:48.119
Pretty amazing. The last thing I
want to ask you is, as

927
01:13:48.239 --> 01:13:55.000
you observe and this wonderful book's been
put together, are we seeing a traumatized

928
01:13:55.079 --> 01:14:00.479
culture at the end of its life
and this reusing cough because this seems so

929
01:14:01.279 --> 01:14:06.600
out of context, out of place
with all their ritual they're writing the Book

930
01:14:06.640 --> 01:14:10.119
of the Dead, you know,
it's like, oh, you know,

931
01:14:10.920 --> 01:14:14.520
we remove your organs, we place
them in jars, and we're going to

932
01:14:14.560 --> 01:14:17.000
set it all up. It's going
to beautifully organized. Now we want to

933
01:14:17.039 --> 01:14:21.399
reuse your cough and get out.
It's right to reuse the canopic chess,

934
01:14:21.520 --> 01:14:27.159
maybe not the jars, but all
of this. They're reusing everything. It's

935
01:14:27.239 --> 01:14:31.119
kind of and the answer is yes. There is an anxiety that you can

936
01:14:31.960 --> 01:14:38.079
note in the texts of the period. There is a desire to hide what

937
01:14:38.239 --> 01:14:41.119
it is they're doing. And I
can see that as I track the reuse

938
01:14:41.159 --> 01:14:44.680
and I look at how it's done, that there's an interest in hiding most

939
01:14:44.760 --> 01:14:48.479
of the reuse in any way that
they can. There's there's a real worrying

940
01:14:48.600 --> 01:14:53.079
consternation. So much so, and
first thing I want to say is that

941
01:14:53.199 --> 01:14:57.079
this is not Egypt's first trauma.
This is a three thousand year old time

942
01:14:57.159 --> 01:15:00.800
period. They had been through the
first intermediate period after the collapse of the

943
01:15:00.840 --> 01:15:03.000
Old Kingdom, the second intermediate period
with the collapse of the Middle Kingdom.

944
01:15:03.359 --> 01:15:06.960
Now we're dealing with the third intermediate
peer with the collapse of the New Kingdom.

945
01:15:08.000 --> 01:15:10.640
So this isn't the first time they
have gone through something like this,

946
01:15:11.119 --> 01:15:14.760
but it is the first time in
living memory for the people who are going

947
01:15:14.840 --> 01:15:18.039
through it, so it's a very
meaningful and difficult time. The second thing

948
01:15:18.600 --> 01:15:24.079
is that it makes people bury.
Elite people who get to spend all of

949
01:15:24.119 --> 01:15:29.239
this money on their coffins, they
bury themselves differently from this time on.

950
01:15:29.439 --> 01:15:34.039
So when this coffin reuse starts to
peter off, it starts to subside.

951
01:15:34.920 --> 01:15:40.600
The wealthy people of the twenty second
Dynasty are like, Okay, I don't

952
01:15:40.600 --> 01:15:43.920
trust anybody. I don't trust you, mister priest, I don't trust you.

953
01:15:44.239 --> 01:15:46.960
My next generation is coming after me. I don't trust anybody. So

954
01:15:47.079 --> 01:15:51.640
they have all of these crazy defensive
rituals. I'll just give you one.

955
01:15:53.119 --> 01:15:59.239
Instead of using wood for the innermost
body container, they use something called cartonage,

956
01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:02.880
which is like a papier mache that
you mold around the body when it's

957
01:16:02.960 --> 01:16:08.279
still wet, and they laced it
up the back or they attached it in

958
01:16:08.439 --> 01:16:14.000
some way. And cartonage is not
something that you want to that you can

959
01:16:14.079 --> 01:16:17.680
easily reuse. And to open that
coffin you have to break it. It's

960
01:16:17.760 --> 01:16:21.239
kind of like an old school piggybank
that doesn't have the bottom opening, right.

961
01:16:21.319 --> 01:16:25.760
You have to crack it open,
you have to break it. Anybody

962
01:16:25.840 --> 01:16:30.960
would know if you have opened up
this carteonage to be absolutely And why would

963
01:16:30.960 --> 01:16:33.239
they be worried about that? Well, because obviously their mummy has all kinds

964
01:16:33.239 --> 01:16:38.159
of amulets on it. Their mummy
is in the wrappings, has all kinds

965
01:16:38.199 --> 01:16:41.720
of precious things, maybe gold,
maybe, maybe silver, maybe other things.

966
01:16:42.199 --> 01:16:45.960
They don't want anyone going in and
taking that material. So they're like,

967
01:16:45.520 --> 01:16:48.960
I want to make sure you,
priests, whom I really don't trust

968
01:16:49.000 --> 01:16:51.760
anymore, that you're doing it right. So do it in front of my

969
01:16:51.840 --> 01:16:55.000
eyes. And they're like, okay, okay, we got it. And

970
01:16:55.039 --> 01:16:57.279
they wrap them all up and do
it in front of their eyes. They're

971
01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:00.279
like, I'm not ready. I'm
not done yet. They develop this new

972
01:17:00.960 --> 01:17:12.520
this new cultural ritual embalming technique in
which they pour this black viscous varnishy man

973
01:17:12.680 --> 01:17:17.000
resin all over the dead body and
over that cartonage. They seal it and

974
01:17:17.119 --> 01:17:20.640
it's sticky and if anyone tries to
touch it, they'll have black fingers,

975
01:17:20.800 --> 01:17:26.000
and it's like they seal it.
It's like show me, show me that

976
01:17:26.039 --> 01:17:29.479
you're not going to get in there. Seal it. And so they actually

977
01:17:29.640 --> 01:17:32.600
make the high priests or for priests, any priest who's a funerary priest,

978
01:17:33.079 --> 01:17:36.880
seal the coffin in front of their
eyes, because there is so little trust

979
01:17:38.520 --> 01:17:45.039
in this, in this profession that
is burying and taking all with you know,

980
01:17:45.119 --> 01:17:47.560
I bury with the Lartian, I
take with the left, and and

981
01:17:47.720 --> 01:17:53.680
it's or this generational. You can't
control what people are gonna do after you.

982
01:17:53.840 --> 01:17:56.840
You can't control your own funeral.
The dead do not bury themselves,

983
01:17:56.920 --> 01:18:00.079
as the old adage goes, So
you don't know what's gonna happen. So

984
01:18:00.159 --> 01:18:04.039
you create a system in which people
have to bury you in a certain way

985
01:18:04.079 --> 01:18:10.640
that is more protected. And it's
pretty crazy that the Egyptians were so traumatized

986
01:18:10.640 --> 01:18:12.520
by all of this. They're like, Okay, we're not going to get

987
01:18:12.600 --> 01:18:14.640
rid of the Conference of the Tombs
and all this stuff. We love it.

988
01:18:14.960 --> 01:18:16.680
It works for us. It helps
us keep our highly place. But

989
01:18:16.840 --> 01:18:18.720
we're not going to do it in
the way that we've been doing it because

990
01:18:18.720 --> 01:18:21.399
it's stupid. We're going to be
clever about it. I think there's a

991
01:18:21.560 --> 01:18:26.960
I think there's a lot of rebound, a lot of material that others are

992
01:18:27.000 --> 01:18:30.279
going to pick up from this book. I mean, I hope so that's

993
01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:34.399
what it's totally totally But I have
to say this, Kara, you're an

994
01:18:34.399 --> 01:18:40.920
anomalist, you really are. You
find this stuff and you're like, wait

995
01:18:40.920 --> 01:18:43.199
a minute, I got to more. I gotta know more. I gotta

996
01:18:43.239 --> 01:18:46.800
know. I have to figure it
out pages later. It's a book,

997
01:18:46.920 --> 01:18:50.560
girl, and there's another volume to
come and I'm working on and it's taken

998
01:18:50.640 --> 01:18:55.600
so long. Ah, so you
know, but this is to you know,

999
01:18:55.880 --> 01:18:58.439
you write a popular book. I'm
not saying that's easy. It's not

1000
01:18:58.640 --> 01:19:01.439
easy, but it doesn't I don't
have to collect as much data. I'm

1001
01:19:01.520 --> 01:19:04.560
more standing on the shoulders of giants
to write that book, right. And

1002
01:19:05.079 --> 01:19:09.600
I was reading it and you're referring, referring, referring to those who came

1003
01:19:09.640 --> 01:19:13.439
before you. Oh my god,
this book now, but Facebook, I

1004
01:19:13.479 --> 01:19:16.359
had to collect the data myself.
I had to go out to each museum.

1005
01:19:16.640 --> 01:19:21.079
I had to take those photos myself
because nobody photographs a coffin the way

1006
01:19:21.159 --> 01:19:25.479
I need you to photograph a coffin. They're not going to open it up.

1007
01:19:25.840 --> 01:19:28.479
You open up the coffin, you
see everything they don't want you to

1008
01:19:28.560 --> 01:19:30.479
see. I'm like, I got
you now, Now I can tell that

1009
01:19:30.600 --> 01:19:33.479
this is a reuse piece. Do
you just look at the outside and what's

1010
01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:36.600
pretty. That's why you're not going
to see it. And that's why people

1011
01:19:36.640 --> 01:19:40.159
are so surprised. They're like,
are you sure. I'm like, let's

1012
01:19:40.199 --> 01:19:42.920
open up your coffin together. Well, little bit it up and they're like,

1013
01:19:42.960 --> 01:19:45.000
oh my god, I see what
you're saying. Oh yeah, but

1014
01:19:45.680 --> 01:19:49.000
it's yeah, it's data. You
have to work with the data. Yeah.

1015
01:19:49.479 --> 01:19:54.520
The book is Recycling for Death.
You can get a digital copy on

1016
01:19:54.640 --> 01:19:58.039
Amazon. I just saw it.
It just came out a couple of weeks

1017
01:19:58.079 --> 01:20:01.439
ago, and I'm going through it
again, Cliff. It's coming out in

1018
01:20:01.680 --> 01:20:04.560
August. Now. They gave you
no I saw it on I saw it

1019
01:20:04.600 --> 01:20:09.640
at Amazon today. Isn't that a
pre order? Oh? I thought it

1020
01:20:09.760 --> 01:20:14.119
was only the digital version was available. Maybe I'm wrong. That is possible.

1021
01:20:14.600 --> 01:20:17.039
That is completely possible. Okay,
well they if they do change it,

1022
01:20:18.960 --> 01:20:24.159
is there any chance that you'll have
a pre offer with a lower price.

1023
01:20:26.000 --> 01:20:28.439
I can't control what the publisher does. Oh, it's a publisher.

1024
01:20:28.640 --> 01:20:32.000
It's an academic publisher too. And
yeah it's an American University in Cairo press.

1025
01:20:32.520 --> 01:20:35.199
And so I will I will do
what they tell me to do.

1026
01:20:35.520 --> 01:20:40.479
But but if the Kingdom price,
I think the kindle price is lower,

1027
01:20:40.560 --> 01:20:44.199
which is great. Yeah forty bucks, yeah for five hundred pages. Yeah.

1028
01:20:45.600 --> 01:20:49.920
I want to mention also that Kara
has a podcast that she launched a

1029
01:20:49.920 --> 01:20:55.239
couple of years ago that's great.
It's called Ancient Now and I was listening

1030
01:20:55.319 --> 01:21:00.159
to it and it's her dialogue and
like we're doing right now with her co

1031
01:21:00.319 --> 01:21:03.600
is Amber a regular or she just
show up once in a while? Amber

1032
01:21:03.680 --> 01:21:08.640
shows up. Amber is always there
and sometimes on the podcast. So Amber

1033
01:21:08.760 --> 01:21:12.479
Amber is my my other half.
And then my other co host is Jordan

1034
01:21:12.560 --> 01:21:15.960
Glazinski. So it's Amber Myer as
well as and Jordan gz And it's great

1035
01:21:16.000 --> 01:21:21.479
because Caro just lets it rip.
And I love that she's not she's I

1036
01:21:21.560 --> 01:21:27.000
mean, she's orthodox, she's an
academic, but she's not old school in

1037
01:21:27.119 --> 01:21:30.520
many ways, and she's really bright
and open and this book is a is

1038
01:21:30.600 --> 01:21:35.159
a good representative of where you're going. So Kara, it's been a pleasure

1039
01:21:35.199 --> 01:21:43.800
as always and continues success. And
I mean, I started reading this book,

1040
01:21:44.399 --> 01:21:47.159
but I got to the back where
all these photos were. That's a

1041
01:21:47.239 --> 01:21:50.279
book in its own. It's like
a it's like a what what are they

1042
01:21:50.359 --> 01:21:55.640
called a coffee table book where you
go make a big one and expand because

1043
01:21:55.640 --> 01:21:58.159
of the photos. I don't know
what camera work you're using, but it's

1044
01:21:58.239 --> 01:22:03.119
very high quality, uh reflex camera. Thank you. We did our best.

1045
01:22:04.000 --> 01:22:06.840
I'm no photographer, so when I
go in, I'm working on my

1046
01:22:06.920 --> 01:22:12.720
iPad and working with software that helps
me keep the photo and the text together.

1047
01:22:13.119 --> 01:22:16.279
So I'm just taking iPad photos.
But the you know, the photographers

1048
01:22:16.319 --> 01:22:19.680
that I bring with me, they
really know what they're doing and are able

1049
01:22:19.720 --> 01:22:21.760
to get in there. And then
I'll be looking, I'm like, get

1050
01:22:21.760 --> 01:22:26.760
that detail, get that detail.
But sometimes we use one of my iPad

1051
01:22:26.800 --> 01:22:30.520
photos if it's a close up detail. Sometimes I get my work in there,

1052
01:22:30.960 --> 01:22:33.399
but mostly it's their better work than
mine. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

1053
01:22:33.399 --> 01:22:36.960
And to be able to tell which
ones have been reused and not.

1054
01:22:38.760 --> 01:22:43.439
You probably have a really trained eye
now so that you can talk to your

1055
01:22:43.520 --> 01:22:45.720
students and go, okay, look
for this and this and this. Yeah.

1056
01:22:46.000 --> 01:22:49.680
Yeah, you learn by doing,
and now I can teach what I

1057
01:22:49.760 --> 01:22:55.000
have figured out, which I love
doing. I think it's great and run

1058
01:22:55.039 --> 01:22:58.399
with it. And see, I
want to just close by saying that you

1059
01:22:58.560 --> 01:23:03.319
have a number of of acquilades and
references. And even Zahieh Wats is like,

1060
01:23:03.960 --> 01:23:12.520
good job. And he's not one
for high praising. He's you know,

1061
01:23:12.640 --> 01:23:15.640
he has his own ego and whatever. But he actually said something nice,

1062
01:23:15.680 --> 01:23:18.439
which is good. I know I
got I got a blurb from him

1063
01:23:18.439 --> 01:23:20.600
on the back of the book,
which is really great. I was really

1064
01:23:20.640 --> 01:23:25.119
pleased. All right, hey,
thanks again, let's not be strangers.

1065
01:23:25.199 --> 01:23:27.720
Have been more than a year.
Let's get you back next time. Well,

1066
01:23:27.760 --> 01:23:34.640
yeah, because my next book,
Clift, it's on Nefertiti. This

1067
01:23:35.039 --> 01:23:38.520
this is shocking, you know what
she had to say. I mean,

1068
01:23:38.560 --> 01:23:43.920
I was just in Cairo a few
weeks ago, back in May, and

1069
01:23:44.039 --> 01:23:51.800
I saw this king death mask and
all his adornment, adornment, and now

1070
01:23:51.880 --> 01:23:57.640
I'm shocked. So you know,
I'm going to I have some really good

1071
01:23:57.760 --> 01:24:00.159
photographs up close and personal of this
death. I'm gonna put it up on

1072
01:24:01.039 --> 01:24:09.640
our Facebook Earth Ancients page, both
pages, as well as some other items

1073
01:24:09.720 --> 01:24:15.119
that she mentioned, and also I
will pull a few photographs from her book

1074
01:24:15.600 --> 01:24:18.640
so you can check them out again. Her books called Recycling for Death.

1075
01:24:19.159 --> 01:24:23.800
It's over five hundred pages. I
had to say this too. When it

1076
01:24:23.880 --> 01:24:26.279
comes out, it's gonna be about
one hundred and fifty bucks, so it's

1077
01:24:26.399 --> 01:24:31.359
more of an academic college text than
it is for general reading. If you're

1078
01:24:31.359 --> 01:24:35.239
a researcher, you should probably look
into it. But I got a digital

1079
01:24:35.319 --> 01:24:40.000
copy of it and it's a monster. I mean, the whole last third

1080
01:24:40.039 --> 01:24:47.000
of the book is all illustrations and
photographs of these coffins. And she's got

1081
01:24:47.119 --> 01:24:51.600
some of the tout material in there
too, and I don't think she highlights

1082
01:24:51.840 --> 01:24:58.079
where the previous owner's name is,
but we'll get a sense of it and

1083
01:24:58.159 --> 01:25:00.560
I'll put them up. So I'm
going to up, like I said,

1084
01:25:01.359 --> 01:25:06.399
probably ten to twenty images on Facebook
to check out. But what a shocker,

1085
01:25:08.239 --> 01:25:14.960
What a complete shocker. King Tut's
death mask with his world famous golden

1086
01:25:15.079 --> 01:25:20.600
death mask, is not him.
It's modified it with somebody else's you know.

1087
01:25:20.720 --> 01:25:25.399
And the thing is, I really
love having care on the show because

1088
01:25:25.439 --> 01:25:30.640
she just tells it like it is. As an ewtertologist, you do your

1089
01:25:30.760 --> 01:25:33.800
research and then you leave it for
someone else to pick up. And I

1090
01:25:33.920 --> 01:25:42.119
believe that's also that goes for non
orthodox docs, scientists like Chris dun and

1091
01:25:42.279 --> 01:25:45.920
Hancock and so forth. And we're
gonna have Luke Cavan's on the show in

1092
01:25:45.960 --> 01:25:50.960
a few weeks. When you hear
from someone who's a fresh graduate who's an

1093
01:25:50.960 --> 01:26:00.680
anthropologist, he acknowledges Hancock, he
acknowledges these other non academic research investigation because

1094
01:26:00.720 --> 01:26:03.680
of their contributions. We need all
of this data. You don't pooh pooh

1095
01:26:03.720 --> 01:26:11.479
it in the face of the possibilities, but can you believe that you know?

1096
01:26:11.640 --> 01:26:15.479
And she gave us an idea,
Kara gives us an idea of what's

1097
01:26:15.520 --> 01:26:20.600
going on with these people's she's reading
from whatever text. But they have to

1098
01:26:20.680 --> 01:26:25.239
and she admits this, and I
love that she admits this. They have

1099
01:26:25.399 --> 01:26:30.359
to provide educated guesses, they have
to have theories, they have to make

1100
01:26:30.439 --> 01:26:33.800
hypothesis on what is going through the
minds of these people because obviously she's not

1101
01:26:33.920 --> 01:26:39.680
there, and she says this.
You know, she's not going, well,

1102
01:26:40.119 --> 01:26:42.920
this is what we know. No, she says it right out.

1103
01:26:43.399 --> 01:26:47.479
These are educated guesses on what was
going on with these pharaohs and this time

1104
01:26:47.600 --> 01:26:56.520
period. Now you know she's saying
new kingdom, what nineteenth dynasty of the

1105
01:26:56.600 --> 01:27:00.439
twenty second I think it goes earlier
than that. I think it goes way

1106
01:27:00.680 --> 01:27:05.359
earlier than that. So who knows. I mean, it's a it's a

1107
01:27:05.439 --> 01:27:10.479
shocker. And really I think,
and you know what, it really remains

1108
01:27:10.600 --> 01:27:15.159
to see to be seen if this
information will be released to the general public,

1109
01:27:16.720 --> 01:27:23.640
because it's devastating. It's devastating.
I mean, these pharaohs are they're

1110
01:27:23.720 --> 01:27:30.399
scratching and calling scrawl, scratching and
trying to exist in going and unwrapping.

1111
01:27:30.760 --> 01:27:35.800
Did you hear her talk about unwrapping
mummies to extract the gold and the gems.

1112
01:27:40.439 --> 01:27:44.479
The other thing was that I had
an image of this is what he's

1113
01:27:44.520 --> 01:27:47.039
saying. They're reusing the coffins,
right, So they take the coffin out

1114
01:27:47.079 --> 01:27:54.199
of a noted pharaoh or an administrator, they remove the mummy, they put

1115
01:27:54.239 --> 01:27:57.359
it down on the ground, and
they put a new mummy in and then

1116
01:27:57.479 --> 01:28:02.520
replaster and then put a new uh
on it. Oh god, wow,

1117
01:28:03.600 --> 01:28:11.680
wow, really amazing. I love
her on this program and I support Kara,

1118
01:28:11.840 --> 01:28:16.640
and she launched a new podcast.
I think she I think it's interesting

1119
01:28:16.720 --> 01:28:24.560
that she named her podcast afterlife and
because there's so much thought of death in

1120
01:28:24.680 --> 01:28:30.199
the whole Egyptian existence, you know. But I wonder if that made them

1121
01:28:30.319 --> 01:28:36.119
morbid. I wonder if it made
them they kind of lost a perspective to

1122
01:28:36.279 --> 01:28:46.840
go in and to remove mummies from
from coffins and the jewelry and the gold

1123
01:28:47.840 --> 01:28:54.319
and the death masks. I'm still
just completely shocked at that whole thing.

1124
01:28:54.479 --> 01:29:00.680
So fun having her on the program. And again, I'll have a gallery

1125
01:29:00.760 --> 01:29:05.439
of these images from her book as
well as King Touch death Mask on Facebook.

1126
01:29:09.399 --> 01:29:13.000
Hey, if you're enjoying Earth Ancients
and Destiny, please consider becoming a

1127
01:29:13.119 --> 01:29:15.760
subscriber for as little as five dollars
a month. You can support the work

1128
01:29:15.800 --> 01:29:19.279
we do here on these podcasts,
and it takes a lot of energy,

1129
01:29:19.279 --> 01:29:24.600
it takes a lot of resources to
put them together, and your donation really

1130
01:29:24.720 --> 01:29:30.079
really helps. To become a subscriber, go to patreon dot com, forward

1131
01:29:30.159 --> 01:29:34.199
slash Earth Ancients and donate. We
have a number of gifts for you,

1132
01:29:34.359 --> 01:29:39.640
including ebooks. We have like over
thirty e books that you can download.

1133
01:29:39.680 --> 01:29:43.720
These gifts from various authors that we've
had on the show, and we have

1134
01:29:43.840 --> 01:29:49.119
some interviews and some galleries and I
would really appreciate for more information and to

1135
01:29:49.399 --> 01:29:55.359
subscribe five, ten, fifteen,
even twenty dollars a month makes a huge

1136
01:29:55.439 --> 01:30:00.119
difference. Go to Patreon. That's
pa t r e o n dot com

1137
01:30:00.760 --> 01:30:08.239
Forward Slash Earth Ancients. Hey,
we have two more tours before the end

1138
01:30:08.239 --> 01:30:12.640
of the year. If you are
thinking of your vacation, come out and

1139
01:30:12.720 --> 01:30:16.359
join us in Turkey. That's August
fourteenth through the twenty fourth. We all

1140
01:30:16.439 --> 01:30:23.840
meet in Istanbul. It's a fantastic
tour. We're just we're updating the itinerary

1141
01:30:24.319 --> 01:30:29.800
and have just added karenhan Teppe.
This is the site of these tall figures

1142
01:30:30.479 --> 01:30:32.760
that they've just discovered. One of
them is I think it is about fourteen

1143
01:30:32.880 --> 01:30:36.800
feet tall. Is huge, and
we'll have a chance to see all the

1144
01:30:38.680 --> 01:30:45.920
digs, the museums that's been added
that's close by. We'll see Cappadocia,

1145
01:30:45.479 --> 01:30:50.039
Darren Kuru. It is a blast. It's going to be two weeks of

1146
01:30:50.119 --> 01:30:57.600
intense viewing. Our host is Mohammed
Ambraheem and for more information go to earth

1147
01:30:57.640 --> 01:31:01.119
Ancients dot com forward slash Tours.
Check it out. These tours are extremely

1148
01:31:01.199 --> 01:31:06.000
reasonable. They're about half the price
that you'll see on a general tour with

1149
01:31:06.119 --> 01:31:10.560
the same itinerary. All right,
and then the final tour of the year

1150
01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:15.039
is the Sacred Temples of Mexico.
This is Maya Ville, my favorite place.

1151
01:31:15.119 --> 01:31:19.000
November eighth through the seventeenth of this
year, twenty twenty four, we're

1152
01:31:19.079 --> 01:31:23.720
gonna climb pyramids and a lot of
places. You can't go and climb anything,

1153
01:31:23.840 --> 01:31:29.960
but we've made special provisions for everyone
to climb the Great Pyramid at Ushmol,

1154
01:31:30.800 --> 01:31:34.920
the ek Balam Pyramid, which is
a long column. You had to

1155
01:31:34.920 --> 01:31:42.560
stop a couple of times as you're
entering the top area. And then Mayapan,

1156
01:31:42.640 --> 01:31:45.520
which is really our training ground to
learn how to walk on pyramids.

1157
01:31:45.960 --> 01:31:50.359
For the full itinerary and more information, go to earth Ancients dot com Forward

1158
01:31:50.720 --> 01:31:56.119
slash Tours and see the whole thing. It is a great tour. It's

1159
01:31:56.239 --> 01:32:00.720
one of my favorite places, and
it's sacred, hollowed ground. His energy

1160
01:32:00.960 --> 01:32:08.119
energy bubbling everywhere in these places,
So earth Ancients dot com forward slash Tours.

1161
01:32:09.800 --> 01:32:11.840
All right, that's it for this
program. I want to think my

1162
01:32:11.920 --> 01:32:16.119
guest today, doctor Kara Cooney,
coming to us from southern California. As

1163
01:32:16.119 --> 01:32:21.279
always the team of Gail tour,
Mark Foster, and everyone who makes this

1164
01:32:21.399 --> 01:32:28.199
thing happen. Thank you, and
you guys are rock all right, take

1165
01:32:28.239 --> 01:32:30.760
care of be well and we will
talk to you next time.