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Hello, and welcome to Open minds
UFO Radio. I am your host,

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Alejandro Rojas, and I am here
with Martin Man on the go Willis.

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Yeah, that's me here, fella
running from the law. No oh really,

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no not really? Okay, good
good. You know what's funny is

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this weekend at the Phoenix Move On
event, they had their their regular monthly

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meeting, and this group is really
cool. They have great speakers they bring

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in all the time, so they
have a big crowd. This time they

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brought David Hatcher Childress, who I
know, well, you know, luckily

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he doesn't live far so we've been
able to We've got some mutual friends and

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stuff hang out here and there,
and he's he's such a neat guy.

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He's fun. I mean, Ancient
Aliens isn't necessarily my favorite show, but

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I love Childers. I really Suculos
is a fun guy too. He's so

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funny. They're they're really cool guys. But you know, they introduced him

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as kind of a real life Indiana
Jones, and it made me think this

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morning that you kind of fit in
that a bit because you deal with antiques.

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But then I thought, well,
maybe you might be more like remember

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the scene in Indiana Jones where I
think it was the Nazis had Indy and

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his dad even so it must have
been the third one. And they're like,

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and you know, they're gonna look
for his compadre, the guy at

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the university he works with, and
he's like, you'll never find him.

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He knows twelve languages, he knows
the cultures of every culture around the world.

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He'll blend in and you'll you'll never
find him. And then the next

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scene they show him in his white
suit and he's like, hello, Hello,

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can someone help me find you know, because he's looking for his hotel

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or something. Do you remember that
scene? I vaguely yes. I want

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to say. I'm almost thinking maybe
getting this wrong. Was it the character

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of the plays mister Bean. No, it wasn't. I'm thinking of a

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whole different movie. Yeah, but
I can I can see him. He

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played like a serious part in a
movie where he like stood out like that.

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Boy. Did I ever get this
wrong? Well, the last Indiana

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Jones had aliens in it, I
believe, didn't it. Oh yeah,

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yeah, so I think it was
a good I'm thinking of but yeah,

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that last but you might be more
like that character but still you deal with

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real life antiquities on a regular basis. I do, and sometimes it's pretty

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pretty exciting. Yeah and yeah,
I mean I've dealt with Murph Griffin's whole

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collection. A lot of people don't
even know who he was. And wasn't

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that what Kramer found in the dumpster
on that episode of Yes, the Murph

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Griffin Show, right, Bob set. Yeah, and he did a little

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show there, No murv Griffin from
Wheel started Wheel of Fortune and all kinds

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of other you know, game shows
and stuff. But he had he was

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an interviewer you know, way back
that had a great show, interviewed everybody.

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So but interesting guy and he had
Roman antiquities that was really an interesting

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estate. But I bring that up
because I'm here wasting your time when you

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have little time because you have to
run off and and do some stuff.

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So I guess we should move on. But I just wanted people know what

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an exciting life that you lead and
how lucky we are to have you here

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in between these exciting adventures that you
have throughout your life. But today my

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guest, so my guest is MJ. Benaia's and he has a site called

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Tara obscura and he likes to talk
about the philosophy of UFOs and hold up

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before you change the station, because
you're like, what kind of egghead goog

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mumbo jumbo are we going to be
hearing today? This is actually extremely interesting.

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I had a wonderful conversation with MJ
was and I think you'll cure what

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we kind of talk about is this
is really important, a very important idea

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and concept, and I think it's
it's an almost a more accurate way of

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placing this UFO phenomena into American culture. And you might be thinking, well,

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there he goes, here, we
go with them, what the hell

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does that mean? Well, I
think you'll see what I mean when you

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listen to the interview. But I
had a lot of fun. I think

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this is a really great interview.
MJ is a really neat guy and I

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hope to have him back. So
yeah, he's got this website Tira Obscura.

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He writes for a Mysterious Universe.
Occasionally his stories are there, and

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his latest article, one that we'll
be referring to is euphological belief Systems,

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and we kind of will get into
this and just kind of you know,

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he kind of feels like, you
know, there's the nuts and bolts in

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the more out there new ag and
where do these all fit and how can

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they work together? Type of stuff, and that's what we talk about.

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So it's pretty fun. Wow,
I am really looking forward to hearing this

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one. Yeah, it is great. I think you'll love it, and

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I think you'll want to have him
on your show. It could be yep,

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I'm sure you will, which will
be great. So that's what we're

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talking about. But before we get
into that, Martin is actually here to

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tell us about some UFO news.
Take it away, all right, So

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I'm going to talk about a starfish
disc starfish and coffee sor right know,

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if I'm familiar with that. It's
a pretty song. Oh okay, it's

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a disc UFO and it was photographed
not far from you, Tucson, Arizona.

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And so this happened back on December
eighteenth of last year, and the

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witness was outside his backyard at about
eleven thirty am when the object he first

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noted He noticed a reflection coming in
from the west at about five to ten

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thousand feet. I know it's quite
a spread, but also you know,

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you look at this pature the very
first thing I thought of. When you

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see a close up of it,
it's really odd looking and looks sort of

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like an organic figure. But it
also looks like it possibly could be some

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type of milar balloon. I mean, it's really but such an unusual shape.

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I don't know how someone would create
something like that, So a quote

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from him him, When I first
focused on it, I could see that

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there was something that was metallic and
rotating clockwise in a slow, stable and

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consistent manner. Now that kind of
goes along with what a balloon can do,

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but also I'm sure anomalous objects could
do that as well. There was

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no sound at all, and he
had his phone and he tried to take

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a whole bunch of pictures. But
if you will look at this article,

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you see a lot of different pictures. The thing is in different positions,

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and so after about fifteen minutes,
he was no longer able to find it

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in his viewfinder. So it was
moving in a direction that could be again

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with the wind. But I want
to know, since the story came out

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just about a week ago, has
anyone come up with any other explanations for

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this? Sala Hundro, Well,
you know, the Phoenix move on.

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Guys are all over it. And
I think I mentioned this before that Dennis

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Frarmouth, the director of investigations out
here, is like one of the best,

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if not the best. I feel
this guy's great, and so I

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did talk to him a little bit
about it, and so they're looking into

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it. They'll have a full report. I think what I could share is

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that he feels more along the lines
of a drone, and I think most

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people feel that way because it does
have these appendages, like you've mentioned.

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It appears to be five of them
which reach out kind of like drones have

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the propellers on each end. However, I'm thinking more of along the lines

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of you what you're saying, a
mari Lar balloon, And he said that's

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his other possibility. He thinks highly
that it's probably a balloon. I agree.

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I think it might be some sort
of party balloon with you know,

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just like maybe a starfish or star
shape, because it seems solid like there,

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it seems like there are these triangular
arms that go out to the circular

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tips at the each of these kind
of appendages. So so I'm with you.

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I think it's probably a balloon type
of thing, but it looks pretty

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weird, so it's kind of fun
when I posted it's funny. The director

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of mofon who Phoenix move On is
actually coming into because we're going to interview

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them about the Phoenix lights and we're
going to be playing those throughout our conference

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coming up here. But he was
like he was. He was real quick

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to email me and say, hey, we don't know what this is.

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We're still investigating it, and and
I told him, I know, I

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know. We put that story because
luckily Roger puts that always at the end,

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that you know, these are still
under investigation, and often they turn

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out to be man made, but
they're interesting pictures. Luckily, this guy

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had a high definition camera with a
nice zoom lens, So I guess who

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knows. We'll see what they end
up figuring out on this one, right

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and right now it's being still investigated. Like you said, in the State

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Section Director Diane Gleason is in charge
of that investigation. Now, did you

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see the other pictures that we had. We had another case with some pictures.

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I'm not sure. Yeah, this
one is Illinois. This one happened

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in December eighteenth, a five point
thirty PM. This person saw something that

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they thought was a star or a
planet. It was flashing, and then

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he said it moved to his right. He thought maybe it was satellite,

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but then he that it was too
big. He was able to take a

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couple of pictures, and he said
he saw what he thought looked like when

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he looked closer, it was five
different objects together and then he seemed said

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they seemed to kind of mold together
and then come apart, so some kind

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of some weird behavior. He got
a few pictures. He said. He

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tried to get some video, but
it was too far and he couldn't really

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do it. And you know,
on the phones usually you can zoom more

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on the photo part than the camera
or that the video parts, So that's

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probably what he ran into. And
his pictures kind of show this. I

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mean, when you zoom in,
you can see one photo where it looks

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more like a solid object, and
then another photo where it looks like several

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different objects, so that one's kind
of weird that one is actually has been

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investigated. The investigation was done by
the Illinois State Section Director James Woolford,

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and he said that he felt it
was something not man made that he actually

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closed this case as an unknown some
people have speculated I believe that this was

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something, you know, like a
star or a planet or something like that.

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But it doesn't make all that much
sense when you read this whole story

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through, yeah, or the pictures, you know, because I kind of

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tended to think, well, you
know, it happens a lot, especially

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as the I think it's called scintillation. As the star gets lower and lower

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on the horizon, it twinkles more
and more because you're having to look through

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more atmosphere right to see the star, and so it's getting distorted more by

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pollution or just the atmosphere, everything
that's in the sky. So and so

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it'll start to look more and more
strange. And people will say you could

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barely tell it was moving, and
then it disappeared behind the mountain or something

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after a couple hours, And this
is what he said. It disappeared after

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a couple of hours. So that's
because you know, the planet's moving,

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and so the stars move and and
we'll set over the horizon. So it's

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a common mistake, and that's what
this sounded like one of those. But

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when you look at the pictures,
you know, it does look like in

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one it was separate objects, and
in another it was not. So yeah,

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this is a mysterious sighting. It
is a mysterious world. All right,

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Well you got any other news,
my friend, No, I am

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on the run, as you said, I am running behind as usual.

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On the run, yeah, Martin, on the run to me A nice

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show. You know that song?
Right? Yeah? I do band on

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the Run by Paul McCartney and ware
you go. Yep, that's right.

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All right, Well you have a
great day. I hope I didn't delay

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you and you get yelled at by
somebody. But you know this is more

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important. I'm used to it.
But thanks, You're right it is.

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Yeah, all right, Well,
have a great day. Thanks for joining

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us again. Talk to you later. Martin. Let's go ahead and talk

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to MJ. I am happy to
welcome to the show. MJ. Benayez.

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Hello, Hello, how are you
good? Doing well? How are

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are you? Are you? Did
you have a white Christmas up there in

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Canada? Oh? It's the iguam
host, it is it. We had

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about thirty or forty centimeters of snow
a couple days ago, so I've been

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shoveling. I think I've shoveled four
or five times in the last you know,

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twenty four hours so and apparently more
is on the way. So yeah,

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it is. It's it's been white
and it's only getting whiter. Oh

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wow, so you'll have a white
New Year's as well, Oh for sure.

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Yeah, even though actually we're recording
before New Year's but this show will

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probably air afterwards. But so there's
kind of a time space manipulation that is

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going on here. Yeah, technically
it's it's in the future, but it's

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also in the past at the same
time, I guess for the listeners.

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So mm hmm, you know it
just yeah, you know, speaking of

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which, and really I want to
get into your background first, but it

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just comes to mind right now is
Doctor Who because when I read you know,

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what you write about with philosophy and
UFOs and people on either side of

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the spectrum and technology and and kind
of the idea versus magic types of stuff.

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I've been watching the Doctor Who holiday
specials because they just became free on

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Amazon, a lot of them,
and I love Doctor Who. I've watched

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everything that's on Amazon, but it's
it's what's interesting about that show is they

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more so than other sci fi?
Is that typical sci fi the technology used

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by aliens or people from the future
is advanced, but it's recognizable as technology,

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where Doctor Who kind of branches at
where the technology is so advanced,

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in strange and creative that it kind
of goes past where it's not even recognized

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always as technology and sometimes like magic. Right, And I don't know,

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reading your articles where you're talking about
the philosophy and you know, the mystical

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ideas versus the nuts and bolts,
it just makes me think of that.

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Yeah, I think, you know, I think Doctor Who is is it's

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one of those weird shows because we
can't, you know, can we call

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it science fiction proper? Right?
You know, Typically when you think of

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science fiction as a genre, it
generally deals with, like you say,

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right, recognizable technology, something that
humanity could potentially develop, sort of gadgets

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and gizmos that that operate following you
know, the laws of biology or chemistry

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or physics or whatever. And Doctor
Who doesn't, Right. Doctor Who often

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deals with with sort of heavy philosophical
concepts, especially sort of the interconnectedness of

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the universe. Right, I think
I think it's David Tennant, the eleventh

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tenth or eleventh Doctor tenth Who says, you know, time isn't linear,

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right, Times is round or circular
and has wibbly wobbly bits in the middle,

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and it's all kind of tied together
and there's no there's no you know,

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beginning point or endpoint, right.
And these are big philosophical concepts that

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that for sure are mystical in nature. And this is where Doctor Who's interesting.

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You know, I'm not necessarily sure
of Star Trek or or the other

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sort of science fiction shows out there
sort of deal with this idea of a

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more mystical universe. Whether it is
mystical or not, I don't know.

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I'm I'm in no way an expert
on that, but yeah, Doctor Who

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is fascinating because they definitely do deal
with these magical concepts at times itself.

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It makes me think that it's it's
possible then, really, just because your

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your latest article about you know,
UFOs and the philosophy and the nuts and

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pulse versus a mystic or not necessarily
you're kind of saying, not versus each

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other. The mixture. We could
be observing alien technology or or even experiencing

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extraterrestrial motivations or influence in some way
without even recognizing it, of course,

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I wrote an I wrote a blog
post for a Mysterious Universe concerning this,

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right, that we won't be able
to necessarily tell the difference between you know,

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the laws of physics and an advanced
alien civilization. I mean we've all

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heard of the Kardashi of scale or
Cardish of scale, right, which is

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the how civilizations are rated. Right, there's like level one, level two,

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level three, and humanity right now
is like a zero point eight or

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something. And you know, once
you get to these high level civilizations that

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operate with with such immense technology that
to us it would be they would be

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gods right to us, they would
be We couldn't tell the difference between scientific

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technology and just the universe doing its
thing, right, it would appear like

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the laws of physics to us.
So again, you know, if we're

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sort of extrapolating here that you know, yes, aliens do exist, and

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and they're out there and they're kind
of zooming around the universe in some way.

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Yeah, how can we tell the
difference, Like, is it possible

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to differentiate between physics and and alien
tech, especially if it's so far advanced.

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Yeah, it's an interesting concept that
I think science fiction potentially can start

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dealing more with, but I think
we also need to deal with potentially in

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euphology as well, or in UFO
discourse, because these are these are questions

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that we're starting to kind of piece
together, especially when you start looking at

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aspects of quantum mechanics or quantum physics, or you start looking at various Eastern

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philosophies like Buddhism or Hinduism, that
that creates a worldview that is a little

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more mystical and spooky and mysterious.
How do we differentiate the nuts and bolts

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and and and of the scientific,
the factual versus the experiential. I suppose

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the the time being circular with wibbly
wobbly bits in the middle, Like,

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how do you separate that? So
I think it's a it's a good point.

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I think it's a good question.
And I guess that's kind of what

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I'm trying to wrestle in here,
because I don't know, I'm just you're

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just a ufologist or whatever. No, And I appreciate that because that's how

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I feel. That's what's great with
these podcast is I approaches kind of maybe

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even socratic, in that I asked
questions and that may imply I have answers,

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but I don't as long as I've
been doing this, and I think

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a lot of people are kind of
like that. Just because we share our

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knowledge doesn't mean that we have any
ultimate answers, which is frustrating for a

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lot of people. Most people want
answers. They don't want to ask questions

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or you know, which I think
is the most important thing is just to

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ask a question, especially when we
don't have solid answers, But most people

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want those answers out there. I
mean, have you ran into that?

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How do you deal with that?
Well? I think the biggest I mess,

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the biggest criticism criticism. I love
criticisms, don't get me wrong.

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But the biggest criticism I get from
other people in sort of the UFO discourse,

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other eufologists I guess you can call
them, is the how do you

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say this nicely? You know,
people who come from the more scientific background

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of of UFO discourse, right,
the more nuts and bolts, the you

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know, the ones who do data
collection, the ones who I don't deal

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with witness reports and and and you
know, often shuffle off the weird cases

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into the that are sort of a
little more metaphysical in nature, and they

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sort of push those away and say, you know, that's not scientific,

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we can't deal with that. But
the biggest criticism I get from that side

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especially is sort of the fact that
philosophy has no place in the UFO discourse.

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You know, what potentially can philosophy
do or critical theory do to to

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help us get a better understanding of
what's going on, because on the science

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end, really it's it's all it's
only what's recordable. It's only the evidence

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that they're looking for, you know, whether it's a dead body and a

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some area fifty one hangar somewhere,
or something that we can actually tear apart

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and study, or a technology that
we can reverse, you're like ultimately,

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or citing reports that that are you
know, that show up on radar or

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whatever. It's. It's they want
those hard, researchable, reproducible things.

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And and unfortunately, you know,
UFOs don't follow that system, right.

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They're they're kind of more spooky and
mysterious and they and they don't necessarily while

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they do leave physical traces on occasion, they don't necessarily follow the scientific sort

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of method. And I got a
lot of criticism for for trying to bring

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philosophy into it, because they say
it's useless. I'm just adding more crap

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to the proverbial UFO pile. And
and I struggle with that, right because

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ultimately I disagree with them. I
think philosophy has a significant place in in

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eupology, and I think it's a
it's it's a it's a a part of

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euthology that really hasn't been explored.
I think. I think a lot of

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philosophers have dealt with sort of the
extratrustrial question, for sure, but no

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one has really taken philosophy into sort
of this world of so called uphology.

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What is euthology? You know,
what what is a ufologist? And what

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did you do ufologists study or look
at? And why do we look at

295
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it? And not only that,
you know what implications does studying UFOs or

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UFOs themselves have upon sort of human
the human concept of self or or human

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morals and ethics. So I think
these are the big questions that I try

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to answer, but I get a
lot of pushback from the people on the

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more mystical end. You know,
the the I called the postmodern Shamans and

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all that, you know, the
guys who are part of you know,

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CE five or C SETI or whatever, you know, they're they're a little

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more friendly, right because I think
for them it they kind of view the

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world in a in a more mystical
sense. Let's say, they're a little

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more open potentially to this self exploration
where you know, scientists, I don't

305
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know, there's a bit of there's
a bit of anti philosop sentiment amongst them,

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you know, I don't know.
I was gonna say, what's funny?

307
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So reading your your last blog post, you talk about like a bridge

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where you know, one edd of
this bridge is the nuts and bolts you

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under. Other end is the mysticism. And uh and sometimes people wander I

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think most people kind of wander back
and forth, you know. Uh.

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And and like you had mentioned,
some fall off, some jump off,

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and uh, I gotta admit sometimes
it sounds appealing to jump off. Uh.

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But uh, you know what's funny
is is there's kind of this by

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location with people though too. Because
the nuts and bolts people, what I

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found, uh, since I know
many of them very well, they have

316
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philosophical per views. Maybe they don't
view them that, but they have a

317
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worldview often that is supernatural in a
way, and that many of them are

318
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religious or have some sort of I
you know, kind of they ask these

319
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extistential questions or they think about them, and so at some subconscious level,

320
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you know, maybe when they're at
church, or maybe they do this on

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a regular basis, they just kind
of keep them separate. They think about,

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you know, God or whatever their
religious perspective is and how it relates

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to UFOs or the extraterrestrial hypothesis,
and in doing that, they're participating on

324
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the other side of the bridge.
I almost like to have a ghost self

325
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on the other side of the bridge, and a lot of them don't admit

326
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that, or there's just kind of
a disconnect where they don't connect those together.

327
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But what's funny is those same guys
criticizing you are doing exactly what you're

328
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saying. At some level, they
are philosophizing, oh for sure. I

329
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mean, you know, science,
science itself is heavily rooted in philosophy.

330
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Before science was science, it was
philosophy, right, Yeah. PhD is

331
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a doctor of philosophy and acquisition of
knowledge not necessarily a hard set. There

332
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are no rules in science. I
mean, it's all theory yeah, and

333
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science itself, you know, and
and philosophy as well, you know,

334
00:27:19.839 --> 00:27:25.960
follows very similar patterns. Right,
reason, rationality and logic sort of have

335
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to be maintained as one does philosophical
work. Otherwise the philosophy tends to fall

336
00:27:30.359 --> 00:27:33.359
apart, just like science. Right, you know, you have to follow

337
00:27:33.400 --> 00:27:36.680
the scientific method. You know,
you have to constantly reproduce and and and

338
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and have falsibility and and eventually,
you know, if it doesn't hold up

339
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to sort of academic grigor or scientific
grigor, right, the theory falls apart.

340
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So yeah, no, I agree, and I think that people generally,

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you know. The reason why I
refer to it as a spectrum,

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it is because it's, like you
say, right, you can sort of

343
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exist within sort of various shades of
color. Right, you know, just

344
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because you're you're nuts and bolts.
You know, you may have a lot

345
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of fistic tendencies, or you may
have a lot of you know, mystical

346
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or theological beliefs that that shape your
nuts and Bolt's philosophy. And I think

347
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I raised that question, you know. So so let's say, let's say

348
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the UFO issue is is a nuts
in Bolts one. So let's say they

349
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are, you know, aliens who
are in meat bodies just like you and

350
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I. They're just really smart and
they zoom around, you know, space

351
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in mechanical spaceships, you know,
just because they do that, just because

352
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there's another let's say, civilization of
meat bodies like you and I, who

353
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you know, have free will and
agency and they run around and they make

354
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decisions like you and I. Does
that suddenly Negate? The mystical does that

355
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:48.480
suddenly Negate? God does that sounding
negate? You know Sam Sarah in Hinduism

356
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does that something Negate? A universal
consciousness if there is one, you know

357
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that does just because there's another civilization, does that certainly undo all of that?

358
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:02.200
Of course not right it It's just
there's just another group of meat bodies

359
00:29:02.279 --> 00:29:07.680
running around. So yeah, I
agree with you. I think you know,

360
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you really talk to a lot of
people in the UFO world and there's

361
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a lot of mixing between religion or
theology and science. Well, and the

362
00:29:18.119 --> 00:29:22.599
guys on the mystic side are doing
the same, which frustrates the science guys,

363
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which I understand, and that they're
on the mystic side of the bridge

364
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and they're thinking and questioning and it's
all about self discovery, which is all

365
00:29:30.440 --> 00:29:34.680
great, wonderful stuff. I mean, that's really important. I think the

366
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scientists get upset when they delve into
their realm of defining reality kind of in

367
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the nuts and bolts, and they
say, well, this is real,

368
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well for sure, and which is
rightfully so it's it's not real. I

369
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mean, it's questions, it's ideas. But just because you're questioning and you're

370
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coming up with some interesting speculation doesn't
mean that that that that's you know,

371
00:29:57.319 --> 00:30:03.240
everyone's reality that you got to push
on them, which many do so so

372
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it is kind of you know,
that's where these conflicts rise. I guess

373
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we're stepping on each other so for
sure, and I think you I think

374
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what really frustrates, and this has
been a big frustration I've heard before from

375
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people within the scientific community of UFO
discourse is that the mystical group the more

376
00:30:18.200 --> 00:30:23.000
the more the people who have that
more mystical philosophy of UFOs often cite stuff

377
00:30:23.000 --> 00:30:27.640
like quantum physics or quantum mechanics right
as as if it's evidence to support you

378
00:30:27.680 --> 00:30:33.720
know, multiple dimensions or or you
know, vibration states uh sometimes as they

379
00:30:33.720 --> 00:30:38.519
refer to it or uh, certain
entities being able to sort of pierce the

380
00:30:38.599 --> 00:30:42.599
veil of reality, and they come
from various dimensions that sort of coexist with

381
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ours. And and you know,
often the mystics will say, well,

382
00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:49.079
you know, but quantum mechanics says
there's multiple multiple dimensions, so why not,

383
00:30:49.440 --> 00:30:52.119
right, And unfortunately it's not really
how it works, right, Like,

384
00:30:52.200 --> 00:30:56.400
it's not how science really works.
Just because you know, just because

385
00:30:56.480 --> 00:31:03.960
some physicists have postulated that there's potentially
multiple universes, are multiple realities, doesn't

386
00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:08.319
isn't tantamount to saying, well,
then maybe there's some beings on the other

387
00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.039
side of veil that can you know, interact with us, and they can

388
00:31:12.240 --> 00:31:18.160
they have the ability to sort of
communicate through this this universal system of of

389
00:31:18.160 --> 00:31:22.000
of of multiple dimensions or whatever,
you know, and it becomes this big

390
00:31:22.079 --> 00:31:26.079
sort of collection of mumbo jumbo.
And I can definitely see how it frustrates

391
00:31:26.119 --> 00:31:32.480
that the more science science minded you
have eupologists, right, I mean,

392
00:31:32.519 --> 00:31:34.079
I'm sure they find it frustrating because
they go, you don't know what you're

393
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.960
talking about, like stop it?
And and I agree, I mean,

394
00:31:38.000 --> 00:31:41.960
and I think both sides have to
be critical of the other, like a

395
00:31:41.720 --> 00:31:45.720
you know, as a philosopher and
as a as a critical theorist. My

396
00:31:45.839 --> 00:31:51.240
job is literally to be critical,
so to be critical of the dogma of

397
00:31:51.279 --> 00:31:57.559
science and and really who governs science
and and how science runs as a system.

398
00:31:57.640 --> 00:32:02.079
And then as well as be critical
of of the the the more theological

399
00:32:02.119 --> 00:32:06.319
mystical side of the UFO discourse.
Right, you have to be critical of

400
00:32:06.359 --> 00:32:08.200
them too, because I gotta be
honest. When you sort of look at

401
00:32:08.279 --> 00:32:12.759
where all the all the charlatans are, a lot of them are on the

402
00:32:12.759 --> 00:32:15.880
mystical side, right, you don't
you don't have to prove anything. You

403
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:17.680
can just you know, if you're
convincing enough, you know, you can

404
00:32:17.680 --> 00:32:22.599
start your own little UFO religion or
like, you know, build a ranch

405
00:32:22.640 --> 00:32:24.039
somewhere in the middle of nowhere and
just show people lights in the sky.

406
00:32:24.160 --> 00:32:27.160
Like, I don't know, you
have to be critical, I think,

407
00:32:27.759 --> 00:32:30.480
yeah, yeah, I appreciate.
I think, and the older researchers,

408
00:32:30.519 --> 00:32:37.319
I think start to get to the
middle where they they like, let's say

409
00:32:37.400 --> 00:32:39.839
a Jacques Vallet, I think,
and you know, you can agree or

410
00:32:39.880 --> 00:32:44.319
disagree. I would love to hear
what you think. But that's someone who

411
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:53.519
who's nuts in bolts, but he
is willing to speculate and even almost root

412
00:32:53.720 --> 00:32:59.359
himself in this idea that we don't
know. And I don't think the nuts

413
00:32:59.400 --> 00:33:02.200
in bolts of going to answer the
questions, and maybe we'll never have the

414
00:33:02.240 --> 00:33:07.119
answers, but at least then be
able to become more philosophical about everything.

415
00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.599
I I I wholeheartily agree with you. You tend to see this shift where

416
00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:20.079
people sort of approach it in the
middle. Right. It's it's potentially,

417
00:33:20.759 --> 00:33:23.319
you know, something that can be
answered scientifically and and uses sort of the

418
00:33:23.319 --> 00:33:30.000
more nuts and bolts sort of this
right, the the UFOs are a little

419
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:34.799
more nuts and bolts, But there's
also aspects of the mystical right, like

420
00:33:34.920 --> 00:33:37.519
reading you know, Passport to Magonia
by Valet, right. You know he

421
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.880
definitely talks a lot about you know, the fairy world. Right, And

422
00:33:40.880 --> 00:33:50.160
and is that simply a previous interpretation
of sort of the the extraterrestrial question.

423
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:55.519
You know, in a time where
you know, mechanical spaceships weren't a thing,

424
00:33:55.559 --> 00:33:59.960
whereas in now they are. Therefore, you know, humanity has adopted,

425
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.160
you know, calling them aliens or
extraterrestrials, but you know they're simply

426
00:34:02.200 --> 00:34:07.000
that same type of creature, whatever
it is, it's just interacting with us

427
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:10.320
sort of on a cultural level.
That's different. I agree. I think

428
00:34:10.360 --> 00:34:13.679
the middle ground is definitely a place
where a lot of these guys go.

429
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:16.599
I've even in an interview with Richard
Dolan on on UFO Hub, I believe

430
00:34:16.719 --> 00:34:22.920
he talked about how he is even
starting to, you know, take issues

431
00:34:22.960 --> 00:34:25.599
with a little more of the will
take issue with the nuts and bolt side

432
00:34:25.599 --> 00:34:30.719
of things, and he's starting to
kind of lean a little more into the

433
00:34:30.719 --> 00:34:36.000
middle, right into a more maybe
there's something to be said about this concept

434
00:34:36.119 --> 00:34:39.159
of of you know, universal consciousness
or whatever. He didn't come out and

435
00:34:39.199 --> 00:34:45.480
say it, but he sort of
said it in a sense. And I

436
00:34:45.559 --> 00:34:50.400
don't know, is that where eupology
is going, Like, is upology leaving

437
00:34:50.639 --> 00:34:55.639
the old sort of Heineck nuts and
bolts they're just mechanical spaceships, extraterrestrials from

438
00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:00.239
other planets, And is it going
to something else? Is That's what I'm

439
00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:02.760
trying to figure out here, And
I think that's sort of what my blog

440
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:07.159
is trying to establish here, is
that the direction youuthology is going. I

441
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:15.159
don't know that euphology has ever gone
anywhere. I think that, And I

442
00:35:15.199 --> 00:35:25.039
think that your blog really kind of
highlights because you compare it to philosophy and

443
00:35:25.159 --> 00:35:31.320
traditional philosophy or other philosophy. And
I think that that's accurate in that eufology

444
00:35:31.599 --> 00:35:40.280
reflects kind of philosophy as it's been
historically. There's lots of existential questions that

445
00:35:40.360 --> 00:35:50.679
we ponder and we think about,
but it doesn't create answers other than how

446
00:35:50.719 --> 00:35:52.920
you experience it and live your life
and how you want to live your life.

447
00:35:53.119 --> 00:36:00.199
It reminds me of like the Asians. They didn't have ancient supposedly a

448
00:36:00.280 --> 00:36:04.840
word for religion necessarily because everything was
a philosophy. It was an idea.

449
00:36:04.920 --> 00:36:07.639
Here's why I want how I want
to live my life, because you know,

450
00:36:07.719 --> 00:36:09.920
I like the way this guy talks
about living his life and and I

451
00:36:10.159 --> 00:36:15.960
I feel similarly. And and here's
what you know, Buddho or Tao or

452
00:36:16.039 --> 00:36:23.159
who Taoism and Confucius or whatever.
These these ideas I I appreciate and I

453
00:36:23.199 --> 00:36:27.039
want to kind of add to and
live my own way. The zen is

454
00:36:27.079 --> 00:36:30.960
all about, don't believe me,
come up with your own thing. What

455
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:38.239
I said isn't real. Uh So
that's why you've got to and and I

456
00:36:38.280 --> 00:36:43.840
think that that frustrates people. But
that's why I think what you're doing is

457
00:36:43.880 --> 00:36:51.119
so important. Is I think that
personal philosophy and the personalization of philosophy is

458
00:36:51.159 --> 00:36:57.119
important so you can actually get something
out of it. Yeah, and I

459
00:36:57.159 --> 00:36:59.840
think, you know, again,
when the more you know, the more

460
00:37:00.079 --> 00:37:04.239
questions science attempts to answer, right, and that science does a good job.

461
00:37:04.440 --> 00:37:07.960
I don't have any qualms with the
scientific side of things. I love

462
00:37:07.960 --> 00:37:10.840
science. I mean, I'm currently
sitting in front of a laptop talking to

463
00:37:10.840 --> 00:37:15.400
you from you know, thousands of
miles away, so you know, there's

464
00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:23.639
no issue here. It's more the
dismissive nature of science right towards other systems

465
00:37:23.679 --> 00:37:32.239
of knowledge, which which is problematic
and dogmatic especially, but problematic because for

466
00:37:32.320 --> 00:37:39.480
every question science answers, for every
sort of law science generates, it only

467
00:37:39.639 --> 00:37:46.039
creates like a whole ton more philosophical
questions. I refer to the mind body

468
00:37:46.079 --> 00:37:52.840
problem in the blog posts you're referring
to, where philosophers and scientists we don't

469
00:37:52.840 --> 00:37:58.440
really know where the self begins and
and sort of the physical connection to the

470
00:37:58.480 --> 00:38:02.719
body begins. Right, So I
was using our state, you know,

471
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:06.800
So we're sitting here, and you're
sitting there and you're you're thinking of yourself

472
00:38:07.119 --> 00:38:09.159
and and where do you exist within
your body? Right? Where do you

473
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:16.000
exist? Where is Alexandro exist within
his own sort of physical meat body?

474
00:38:16.119 --> 00:38:19.440
And you know often signed to say, well, clearly, you know the

475
00:38:19.480 --> 00:38:22.559
consciousness is in the brain. Okay, great, So where inside the brain?

476
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.679
Well, you know, it's a
system of neurons that fire around inside

477
00:38:24.719 --> 00:38:29.000
the brain, and that creates consciousness, at least we think. But the

478
00:38:29.039 --> 00:38:30.599
problem is, you know, these
neurons keep flying around, they don't necessarily

479
00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:36.079
connect anything. They they when one
neuron leaves, you know, it's sort

480
00:38:36.119 --> 00:38:38.280
of it's entry or exit point,
and then it goes into a receptor and

481
00:38:38.280 --> 00:38:40.719
then it connects to the other part
of your brain that you know, the

482
00:38:40.760 --> 00:38:46.079
signal occurs, the electric the electrical
transfer of data across your lobes. You

483
00:38:46.079 --> 00:38:50.599
know, is that or consciousness?
Wells is that where you exist? You

484
00:38:50.639 --> 00:38:53.480
know? And this is a big
philosophical problem because we don't know. No

485
00:38:53.519 --> 00:38:58.320
philosopher's been able to answer it successfully, nor has science been able to tell

486
00:38:58.400 --> 00:39:02.519
us where the self is. And
if you remove like a piece of your

487
00:39:02.519 --> 00:39:07.559
brain, certain parts, yeah,
our personality can change. Yeah, are

488
00:39:07.599 --> 00:39:12.559
you you exactly? This becomes a
problem, right, So, you know,

489
00:39:12.760 --> 00:39:15.679
a neuroscience has made great right,
neuroscience has really altered the way we

490
00:39:15.880 --> 00:39:19.960
perceive the brain and the way we
perceive the mind. But the problem is

491
00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:28.760
if all the self is is trillions
of neurons flying around at any given moment

492
00:39:28.920 --> 00:39:35.639
inside your brain, you know,
are you then just making decisions based upon

493
00:39:37.079 --> 00:39:39.400
these neurons moving around? And and
you know, when you feel like a

494
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:45.639
cup of coffee or when you say
you know you love someone, do you

495
00:39:45.800 --> 00:39:49.400
actually have the freedom to make that
decision or is it simply neurons firing?

496
00:39:50.840 --> 00:39:53.360
And then what does that say about
ethics? So when somebody makes a bad

497
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:58.360
decision breaks the law, for example, well did they break the law or

498
00:39:58.360 --> 00:40:00.559
did the neurons in their brain,
which they have no control over, make

499
00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:06.400
them break the law? Right?
And this creates a lot of philosophical problems

500
00:40:06.639 --> 00:40:09.880
and scientists, you know, generally
don't want to deal with those questions because

501
00:40:09.920 --> 00:40:14.480
they just want to find out where
the goddamn self is or they want to

502
00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:16.880
figure out why I want a cup
of a cup of coffee over a cup

503
00:40:16.920 --> 00:40:20.239
of tea, or why I want
to punch that guy in the face as

504
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:22.400
hard as I can versus you know, go give him a hug. And

505
00:40:23.559 --> 00:40:27.719
if it's if it is about sort
of the freedom of choice in that you

506
00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:34.360
know, I exist, the self
exists independently of neurons, that's a that's

507
00:40:34.360 --> 00:40:38.239
a philosophical question. Or is it
just the self exists because of neurons firing

508
00:40:38.280 --> 00:40:42.760
across a lobe? You know,
that's another philosophical question. But they have

509
00:40:42.840 --> 00:40:45.960
huge implications for for what it means
to be a person on this planet.

510
00:40:45.599 --> 00:40:51.320
And the UFO question is is very
similar. Right. We don't know where

511
00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:58.559
the physical connection of the physical UFO
as an objector or as a thing connects

512
00:40:58.599 --> 00:41:02.800
to you know, the person seeing
it, are they simply seeing a machine

513
00:41:04.440 --> 00:41:07.239
or as Valet would say, or
some others I think Greg Bishop, you

514
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:13.039
know positive the co creation hypothesis,
you know, is the UFO something that's

515
00:41:13.079 --> 00:41:16.880
out there, but the human brain
is interpreting it to look like a saucer,

516
00:41:17.000 --> 00:41:20.800
or to interpret it to look like
a triangle, or to interpret it

517
00:41:20.800 --> 00:41:24.559
to look like an orb or whatever. So is there some sort of paranormal

518
00:41:24.599 --> 00:41:34.840
halfway point where humanity is extrapolating information
onto the UFO object to make it look

519
00:41:34.920 --> 00:41:40.119
like something, and the UFO is
simply some mystical event, mystical anomaly that

520
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:47.079
is using human understanding or human cultural
constructs to shape itself so that we understand

521
00:41:47.079 --> 00:41:51.119
what it is or we can see
it. You know, I don't know.

522
00:41:51.239 --> 00:41:52.119
I'm not sure what people would think
if suddenly, you know, they

523
00:41:52.159 --> 00:41:55.280
just saw a giant like fairy tinker
Bell thing fly by, be like,

524
00:41:55.320 --> 00:41:58.559
what the hell was that? I
don't know, you know, like why

525
00:41:58.599 --> 00:42:00.480
don't people see fairies anymore? You
know, I guess I still do.

526
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:06.159
But you know, why don't we
see leprechauns anymore? Why do more?

527
00:42:06.199 --> 00:42:08.280
Why are there more UFO sighting?
Is more? UFO sightings are your versus

528
00:42:08.320 --> 00:42:12.280
leper con sightings? I don't know. I think this is, you know,

529
00:42:12.800 --> 00:42:16.800
a sticking point for sure in science
and and the mystical aspects. Well,

530
00:42:17.079 --> 00:42:20.119
and makes me think of a couple
of things. First of all,

531
00:42:20.239 --> 00:42:24.039
like that the Hesdelene lights, well
we're going to have a scientist speak about

532
00:42:24.039 --> 00:42:29.239
them at the UFO Congress. So
these these lights that have been video recorded

533
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:35.320
by by scientists in Denmark. And
I think what's interesting is that, you

534
00:42:35.360 --> 00:42:37.360
know, oh, it's got to
be some sort of plasma phenomena. Well,

535
00:42:37.400 --> 00:42:43.800
this guy we're bringing is a head
scientists at the this university who's been

536
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:50.000
studying this for decades, and he
disagrees. He believes there's some sort of

537
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:54.800
intelligence behind it or you know,
I had I've had John Alexander on quite

538
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:59.039
a few times. He'll be at
the conference talking. That's what's interesting about

539
00:42:59.079 --> 00:43:05.000
Alexander. He's gonna talking along these
lines in that you know, he's people

540
00:43:05.000 --> 00:43:07.320
get frustrated to hear it. But
he was an intelligence. He got his

541
00:43:07.400 --> 00:43:15.800
but he's an intelligence together in different
branches, and they looked for Majestic twelve,

542
00:43:15.840 --> 00:43:17.519
you know, they look for who's
in charge, who is where's this

543
00:43:17.599 --> 00:43:24.079
secret organization? And they found they
feel they found there isn't one. However,

544
00:43:25.679 --> 00:43:30.679
he is all about the mystic.
He visits Shamans and he's going to

545
00:43:30.760 --> 00:43:36.400
talk about, you know, these
other strange, unexplainable things that have happened

546
00:43:36.440 --> 00:43:40.239
to him and his quest for understanding
UFOs who he's he's you know, that's

547
00:43:40.239 --> 00:43:46.039
that's an example of someone who's kind
of bilocated on both ends of the spectrum.

548
00:43:46.199 --> 00:43:52.039
So it's it's I agree with you. In kind of getting back to

549
00:43:52.079 --> 00:43:55.559
what we talked about Originally, it's
almost like a Doctor Who type of thing

550
00:43:55.639 --> 00:44:01.400
that and this happens in Doctor Who
a lot, where something occurs that is

551
00:44:01.440 --> 00:44:08.199
so strange and ridiculous that there just
is no defining it with the information you

552
00:44:08.239 --> 00:44:14.840
would have on your end, is
just not close to enough information to ever

553
00:44:15.559 --> 00:44:21.880
figure out what the hell it is
that you just experienced. Yeah, it's

554
00:44:21.880 --> 00:44:23.159
true. I mean, you know, one of the big questions is is

555
00:44:23.239 --> 00:44:30.119
the UFO sort are U full events? There is the UFO phenomenon connected to

556
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:37.000
a broader paranormal system, right,
so so you know, do sightings of

557
00:44:37.599 --> 00:44:42.960
ghosts or or strange lights like Hesselton
or you know the brown Mountain lights or

558
00:44:43.440 --> 00:44:46.480
what are those mystery booms or those
you know people here like trumpet sounds?

559
00:44:46.480 --> 00:44:51.119
Now, you know, really elluctorate, like is this all connected? Is

560
00:44:51.159 --> 00:44:55.920
there a connection between the UFO phenomenon
and then the broader paranormal phenomenon, or

561
00:44:57.039 --> 00:45:00.320
you know, is it not?
Is the UFO phenomenon something separate? Is

562
00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:06.280
it? Is it the sort of
separate category? And I think the nuts

563
00:45:06.320 --> 00:45:08.360
and bolts guys would and girls would
for sure say yeah, it's a separate

564
00:45:08.400 --> 00:45:13.079
thing, because it's they're they're they're
they're they're things like you and I,

565
00:45:13.119 --> 00:45:15.280
and they have machines and they use
science and they zoom around and you know,

566
00:45:15.320 --> 00:45:21.000
their ghosts or something else or Bigfoot
is something else, especially paranormal bigfoot,

567
00:45:21.159 --> 00:45:22.800
which is kind of funny. But
you know, all of those other

568
00:45:23.679 --> 00:45:30.400
sort of fourteen and paranormal things are
disconnected from the UFO question. The UFO

569
00:45:30.559 --> 00:45:38.360
question still has significant sort of scientific, uh like roots to it. And

570
00:45:38.400 --> 00:45:42.079
I don't know, I think you
see this mix right, Like you mentioned

571
00:45:42.280 --> 00:45:45.119
Alexander right who who sees shamans.
You see, there's a lot of people

572
00:45:45.159 --> 00:45:52.000
in the UFO community who believe in
in in in shamanism and and practice meditation

573
00:45:52.239 --> 00:45:57.440
or or they go to the the
ranch c SETI ranch. You know,

574
00:45:59.880 --> 00:46:04.760
I don't know, Like there's so
many weird connections in euphology. And to

575
00:46:04.840 --> 00:46:07.360
try and try to say that,
you know, all UFO sightings are are

576
00:46:07.519 --> 00:46:15.880
this their their their machines and the
rest is all hoe come it is difficult.

577
00:46:15.360 --> 00:46:21.079
I don't know where you draw lines. I don't know where sort of

578
00:46:21.079 --> 00:46:24.199
the sort of more scientific minded uphologists
say, you know, well here's the

579
00:46:24.280 --> 00:46:30.280
line this, this is a UFO
sighting and and this person who has abducted

580
00:46:30.800 --> 00:46:35.559
their nuts they're there, they're delusional, they're they have a mental health condition,

581
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:38.039
right, and how do you how
do you draw that line? Like

582
00:46:38.079 --> 00:46:43.639
where where is the truth here?
And again, you know, I can

583
00:46:43.639 --> 00:46:51.719
be critical. I am generally critical
of abduction stories. And however, I

584
00:46:51.760 --> 00:46:54.320
mean, what's the difference between somebody
telling me an abduction story and then somebody

585
00:46:54.360 --> 00:46:57.440
telling me, you know, telling
me about lights they saw in the sky

586
00:46:57.480 --> 00:47:00.159
and it gets trapped and move on
investigated and labels and then own, Well,

587
00:47:00.360 --> 00:47:05.760
like, what is the difference?
Does the investigator have access to more

588
00:47:05.760 --> 00:47:10.079
information than than the person telling the
story or I don't know? And as

589
00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:15.199
a move on field investigator, which
I am one, you know, I

590
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:17.719
find that the most difficult. It's
tough when you hear people's stories because unless

591
00:47:17.719 --> 00:47:22.800
you can prove their lying, which
you can sometimes m hm, what you

592
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:27.280
know? Unfortunately I can't prove someone's
delusional, Right, Then what do I

593
00:47:27.320 --> 00:47:30.039
do If I can't prove their delusional? How do I make that call?

594
00:47:31.039 --> 00:47:35.440
And then, on the other hand, you also don't want to push them,

595
00:47:35.480 --> 00:47:37.320
right, You don't want to for
someone who potentially does have a mental

596
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:40.480
health condition, you don't want to
tell them it's aliens, or you don't

597
00:47:40.480 --> 00:47:45.440
want them to convince themselves that it's
aliens, because there's a there's a bigger

598
00:47:45.440 --> 00:47:47.559
issue here that they need to deal
with, but you're only making it worse

599
00:47:47.639 --> 00:47:53.719
by sort of supporting the alien hypothesis. I suppose in their own sort of

600
00:47:53.760 --> 00:48:00.239
mental development, it's really risky and
I don't I don't think on my blog,

601
00:48:00.239 --> 00:48:05.320
but we're going to do the mention
now. But I sometimes take issue

602
00:48:05.360 --> 00:48:08.840
with sort of these uf not sorry
UFO, like the the Experiencers support groups.

603
00:48:08.880 --> 00:48:15.000
I think that there's some risk here, you know, because ultimately,

604
00:48:15.039 --> 00:48:19.920
what if a person does have a
broader or greater mental health condition and you're

605
00:48:21.079 --> 00:48:27.119
talking about aliens and and you're pushing
the alien sort of story upon them,

606
00:48:27.199 --> 00:48:31.199
and it's and it's and they're sort
of just continuing that cycle instead of seeking

607
00:48:31.239 --> 00:48:36.480
proper help. Are you, as
a person who's hosting these experience or work

608
00:48:36.480 --> 00:48:39.960
groups, are these these sort of
support groups? Are you causing more harm?

609
00:48:42.079 --> 00:48:45.920
And that I think that is I
think that right there is a great

610
00:48:46.039 --> 00:48:52.039
question, and it's it's because we
host these at the UFO Congress and and

611
00:48:52.079 --> 00:48:58.440
it's something I struggle with because I
have a background in psychology, that's what

612
00:48:58.519 --> 00:49:04.519
my degree is in. And then
I I have got a certificate in hypnotherapy.

613
00:49:04.719 --> 00:49:07.320
And the issue, I agree with
you one hundred percent, and it's

614
00:49:07.320 --> 00:49:12.000
twofold. It's one is that the
problem, and it is a bit of

615
00:49:12.000 --> 00:49:20.519
a surprising problem, is that I
don't think that the psych psychology community is

616
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:27.480
doing its due diligence around this issue. There are thousands, hundreds of thousands

617
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:32.679
of people who believe they have been
taken by aliens. This is an epidemic.

618
00:49:32.800 --> 00:49:37.840
It's something that needs to be tackled
in how do we handle this,

619
00:49:37.920 --> 00:49:42.400
what's the most healthy way to handle
this? How do we diagnose whether what

620
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:46.320
the issue is with these people?
And some it may be a more larger

621
00:49:46.400 --> 00:49:51.480
issue that could cause more problems,
and it does. We see this,

622
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:55.679
We see people hurting themselves. There
is self harm. I've seen horrific things

623
00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:00.559
happen and it's scary. But on
the other hand, you have people who

624
00:50:00.480 --> 00:50:05.960
may not be real it may be
a sort of delusion, but a healthy

625
00:50:06.039 --> 00:50:08.280
one and that they can come to
terms and they can deal with it.

626
00:50:08.519 --> 00:50:14.000
I've seen doctor Leo Sprinkle who believes
that they're being taken by aliens at least

627
00:50:14.159 --> 00:50:19.000
help them through it to where they
feel comfortable and they can live a good,

628
00:50:19.039 --> 00:50:23.159
healthy life. So you're right,
I think it's a danger. But

629
00:50:23.239 --> 00:50:30.000
on the other hand, group therapy
is kind of our catch all when it

630
00:50:30.039 --> 00:50:31.559
comes to therapy. If we don't
know how to deal with it, group

631
00:50:31.599 --> 00:50:36.360
therapy is what we do, and
it seems to work PTSD. We don't

632
00:50:36.400 --> 00:50:38.000
know how to deal with it.
The best way to deal with it is

633
00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:43.480
group therapy is to get them in
a group to talk to each other.

634
00:50:43.559 --> 00:50:49.280
They feel better and they're able to
live more productive, happy lives and at

635
00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:53.000
least the group therapy is happening,
And so I kind of think, well,

636
00:50:53.000 --> 00:50:57.159
at least it's something, and there's
no other place for these people to

637
00:50:57.199 --> 00:51:00.400
go, some of whom feel very
traumatized for sure, And like I said,

638
00:51:00.719 --> 00:51:06.239
or I think it needs to be
said that people definitely who who who

639
00:51:06.320 --> 00:51:09.239
believe and you know, I don't
know, maybe they have been taken by

640
00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.679
like I don't know, but what
they believe it. If they have been,

641
00:51:14.679 --> 00:51:17.039
they believe it, so we can
say that. But for sure they

642
00:51:17.079 --> 00:51:21.559
get catharsis for sure out of going
to these groups, you know, you

643
00:51:21.639 --> 00:51:25.239
get the feeling that you're not alone, right, so you walk away feeling

644
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:30.480
better. I wholeheartedly agree, and
I think that it definitely serves a purpose.

645
00:51:30.280 --> 00:51:34.000
I just like you said, right, I think I think that because

646
00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:39.000
psychology as a broader field doesn't know
how to deal with alien abduction phenomenon,

647
00:51:39.639 --> 00:51:45.440
and they just don't, right,
they just simply and they could they have

648
00:51:45.639 --> 00:51:50.639
processes where they could tackle it,
and I figure out the you know,

649
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:52.920
the best way is to deal with
it, because there are some people who

650
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:59.119
leave from these groups that don't go
on a good path. Yeah, and

651
00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:05.599
it is scary for sure, and
they definitely need sort of stronger psychological support

652
00:52:05.719 --> 00:52:15.960
from from you know, experts in
in professional community professionals. But in regards

653
00:52:15.039 --> 00:52:21.719
to sort of the group setting and
getting the feeling of Catharsis, it definitely

654
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:27.239
helps. I totally lost my train
of thought. You know, I was

655
00:52:27.280 --> 00:52:30.000
going to bring up something else though
that touched upon that I thought was really

656
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:36.400
interesting. We'll switch tracks. Sorry, Yeah, no problem, we probably

657
00:52:36.519 --> 00:52:39.920
yeah my fault, I'm I'm sure, but you know what you were talking

658
00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:45.039
about earlier. Also, the problems
with the nuts and bolts kind of rejecting

659
00:52:45.079 --> 00:52:50.800
philosophy. Uh, it really it
reminds me of Richard Thame, who I

660
00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:54.679
interviewed just a few weeks ago,
who is a futurist kind of he lectures

661
00:52:54.679 --> 00:53:00.599
on the future, and and and
we got into this conversation, a similar

662
00:53:00.639 --> 00:53:06.519
conversation, and it reminds me of
Michael Crichton. This whole idea of us

663
00:53:06.599 --> 00:53:14.679
moving so quickly mainly due to to
you know, monetizing the technology that we

664
00:53:14.800 --> 00:53:19.719
moved so quickly, and we we
package it and we sell it before,

665
00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:23.920
like in Jurassic Part, before we've
even realized if it's something we should do,

666
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:29.280
if it's the right thing to do. And here we are in this

667
00:53:29.480 --> 00:53:32.880
internet world, and we're all completely
plugged in, and we move so quickly

668
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:39.320
to this and we're all completely exposed. I mean, all of our information

669
00:53:39.440 --> 00:53:44.760
and everything, we've just thrown it
in. And I've kind of always gone

670
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:47.599
in with the idea of that.
Okay, I'm exposed. I realize that.

671
00:53:49.239 --> 00:53:53.679
But you know, it seems like
our larger systems have relied too heavily

672
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:59.400
on it, with this illusion that
somehow they would be able to protect themselves,

673
00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:04.360
and more or more we learn that
that's not possible. I think this

674
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:07.880
often comes up. I mean when
you when you read a lot of futurists,

675
00:54:07.920 --> 00:54:12.840
like futurist blogs or futurist articles.
Often, you know, AI comes

676
00:54:12.920 --> 00:54:20.159
up as a as this sort of
boogeyman of the future. And there there

677
00:54:20.159 --> 00:54:23.519
are big philosophical questions here for sure, and I think, like, like

678
00:54:23.760 --> 00:54:27.480
you talked about, right, is
humanity ready? Right? There's this again,

679
00:54:27.559 --> 00:54:30.719
this ethical There's a few ethical questions
for sure that we have to we

680
00:54:30.760 --> 00:54:32.679
have to deal with when it comes
to sort of technology and its development.

681
00:54:32.960 --> 00:54:39.960
But is humanity prepared to create an
intelligence sort of beyond itself? Right?

682
00:54:40.119 --> 00:54:45.880
The question of playing god comes up
often. And then I guess more importantly,

683
00:54:45.960 --> 00:54:47.719
like like you said, you know, with technology growing so quickly,

684
00:54:47.760 --> 00:54:51.599
again, futurists deal with this idea
of the singularity, right, So the

685
00:54:52.000 --> 00:54:55.000
machine mind then starts to develop so
quickly that we can no longer contain it,

686
00:54:55.679 --> 00:55:00.679
and eventually it comes up with with
the conclusion that humanity is a is

687
00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:05.719
a threat, right, and it
must then, you know, do its

688
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:10.599
work to terminate humanity a la Skynet
or or you know other terminator esque ways

689
00:55:10.679 --> 00:55:17.960
or matrix ways. And you know, I love futurists because it's it's it's

690
00:55:19.000 --> 00:55:23.000
such an interesting line of work,
if I can call it that. But

691
00:55:23.039 --> 00:55:28.480
they definitely talk about a lot of
questions philosophically that we're gonna have to deal

692
00:55:28.519 --> 00:55:32.320
with as a species. And I
think we we are struggling with now.

693
00:55:32.360 --> 00:55:37.599
Like you said, I mean,
you know, you think about you know,

694
00:55:37.679 --> 00:55:40.559
exposing you know, your your data. You know, like take Facebook,

695
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:45.679
Instagram, all the social media we
use. You know, I look

696
00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:47.960
at you look at kids who are
you know, sixteen seventeen, The stuff

697
00:55:47.960 --> 00:55:53.519
that they're posting without any sort of
regard for for their future, right right,

698
00:55:54.159 --> 00:55:58.679
all the you know, the sexting
and the the you know, the

699
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:04.239
selfies that are you know, highly
sexualized and exists forever. You know,

700
00:56:04.320 --> 00:56:07.199
when you're sixteen, you know,
you post this picture, you know,

701
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:12.119
that doesn't go away. It sits
forever in some server somewhere, and all

702
00:56:12.159 --> 00:56:15.719
it takes is one person to sort
of find it out in a Google image

703
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:19.000
search, you know, deep deep
into Google and pull it up and suddenly

704
00:56:19.039 --> 00:56:22.800
it's back. We're literally creating our
own ghosts that that sort of haunt us.

705
00:56:22.880 --> 00:56:27.320
Right. We take this picture and
we put it out there, and

706
00:56:27.360 --> 00:56:30.599
then all of a sudden, fifty
years later, fifty it's a long time.

707
00:56:30.599 --> 00:56:32.280
Sorry, thirty years later, you
know, it rears its ugly head

708
00:56:32.719 --> 00:56:36.480
and we have to then suddenly,
you know, either get rid of it

709
00:56:36.559 --> 00:56:42.119
or kill it again or something.
So are we really prepared to deal with

710
00:56:42.280 --> 00:56:45.559
all of this data that's out there? Are we making ourselves sort of bigger

711
00:56:45.880 --> 00:56:53.199
than we were ever intended to be? Was humanity's personality or was a person's

712
00:56:53.239 --> 00:57:00.480
personality designed to be spread out over
an invisible network that connects everything? You

713
00:57:00.480 --> 00:57:02.599
know? I don't know. There's, like I said, there's a lot

714
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:07.559
of philosophy that's that's being done on
it, and the futurists are definitely raising

715
00:57:07.599 --> 00:57:10.880
those questions in their in their posts
and in their their sort of articles and

716
00:57:10.920 --> 00:57:16.000
in everything they write, you know, yeah, and thinking, you know,

717
00:57:16.119 --> 00:57:20.760
I keep bringing you off topic topic, But it comes back to I

718
00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:24.280
think more and more is in on
this bridge. The middle of the bridge

719
00:57:24.440 --> 00:57:28.639
is philosophy. It seems like,
and I mean, do you think it

720
00:57:28.679 --> 00:57:32.079
would be a fair statement And it
seems like it might be a more accurate

721
00:57:32.480 --> 00:57:40.239
accurate statement than others that the study
of UFOs is a philosophical study. I

722
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.719
think it definitely is philosophical. I
think that when you read a lot of

723
00:57:46.840 --> 00:57:52.719
the UFO work that's done not necessarily
like research cases or anything like that,

724
00:57:52.760 --> 00:57:57.639
Like not the specific case work that
is uphology, but the broader work that

725
00:57:57.639 --> 00:58:00.719
that tries to link those cases together, or or you know, the novels.

726
00:58:01.119 --> 00:58:06.559
You know, whether you read Johnny
Macker or whether you read Valet or

727
00:58:06.679 --> 00:58:14.039
Hiheneck or whatever. They often do
sort of extrapolate the case data into a

728
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:20.840
philosophical sense, like what questions does
this then pose for humanity. There's a

729
00:58:20.880 --> 00:58:23.400
great paper out there called Sovereignty in
the UFO. If you just google Sovereignty

730
00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:27.880
in the UFO, you'll find it's
it's a university like it's an academic paper,

731
00:58:28.199 --> 00:58:34.280
but they create a really interesting They
raise a really interesting question concerning UFOs

732
00:58:34.280 --> 00:58:39.960
in general, and is the reason
why UFOs are taboo as a subject in

733
00:58:40.000 --> 00:58:45.079
popular culture in the senses of why
doesn't the mainstream news, for example,

734
00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:52.000
cover UFO standings or whatever. Is
it taboo because it's it challenges human sovereignty

735
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:55.199
over the planet. It challenges human
sovereignty as the only intelligent species on the

736
00:58:55.199 --> 00:59:00.239
planet. If suddenly there's something else
that's equally intelligent or more intelligent than us,

737
00:59:00.320 --> 00:59:07.239
running around. Does that then call
into question our governance over ourselves,

738
00:59:07.639 --> 00:59:13.840
over our earth, over you know, the stuff we own, over the

739
00:59:13.880 --> 00:59:20.000
way we we divide into countries and
and blow each other up. You know,

740
00:59:21.519 --> 00:59:27.559
if the UFO question is answerable and
that is an intelligence that is greater

741
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:34.000
than ours, this completely, this
completely ends humans humanity's control over Earth.

742
00:59:34.039 --> 00:59:39.960
We are no longer the sole proprietors
of this planet. We become just another

743
00:59:40.039 --> 00:59:44.840
voice in a chorus potentially, And
this is frightening I think for people,

744
00:59:45.079 --> 00:59:47.519
and and in this paper they pause
it that this is the reason why UFOs

745
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:52.639
are considered a fringe or taboo topic, because it deals with these issues that

746
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:58.360
humans are not actually in control of
Earth, or at least, you know,

747
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:02.360
in control of the stuff of the
resources and whatever. And I think

748
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:08.920
that you you see this as as
the big philosophical concept in in UFOs and

749
01:00:08.960 --> 01:00:14.119
in the study of UFOs. I
think all UFO work often deals with this.

750
01:00:14.199 --> 01:00:16.679
Like when you ask somebody who looks
researches UFOs and you ask them like

751
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:20.639
why do you do this? Like
why are you interested in UFOs? You

752
01:00:20.679 --> 01:00:22.159
know, there's there's a few answers. One is, you know, the

753
01:00:22.199 --> 01:00:25.440
most common well everyone wants to see
a UFO, which is pretty cool.

754
01:00:25.760 --> 01:00:31.039
Uh, you know, Okay,
granted, But the next big question that

755
01:00:31.519 --> 01:00:36.239
they sort of or sort of the
next big answer that they provide is,

756
01:00:37.360 --> 01:00:39.360
you know, I want to know
what the truth is, you know,

757
01:00:39.480 --> 01:00:44.679
I want to know what's going on
out there, and that itself is a

758
01:00:44.679 --> 01:00:51.119
philosophical thought. That's not that's not
a nuts and bold scientific thought. It's

759
01:00:51.199 --> 01:00:53.800
much more philosophical because you're not just
looking at the stuff in front of you.

760
01:00:53.800 --> 01:01:00.679
You're you're expanding your your You're expanding
your thinking to what's beyond yourself,

761
01:01:00.920 --> 01:01:04.719
which is really the goal of philosophy
when you really think about what is about

762
01:01:04.760 --> 01:01:10.679
it's it's expanding one's own mind to
understand the broader context, the broader universe,

763
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:19.199
the broader conscious state of I don't
know humans, or or or life

764
01:01:19.760 --> 01:01:23.159
or whatever. So yeah, I
agree. I think I think uphology and

765
01:01:23.159 --> 01:01:28.400
and the uf and UFO discourse itself
is much more philosophical than people are willing

766
01:01:28.440 --> 01:01:31.360
to admit. And I think philosophy
has become a bit of a dirty word.

767
01:01:31.679 --> 01:01:36.639
I think you have a lot you
have a lot of famous scientists who

768
01:01:37.039 --> 01:01:40.400
you know, take dumps all over
it I mean Neil deGrasse, Tyson Hawking,

769
01:01:40.800 --> 01:01:46.079
you know, to the two,
you know, one Tyson who's insanely

770
01:01:46.079 --> 01:01:50.400
famous, but Hawking, who is
probably one of the most important scientists you

771
01:01:50.400 --> 01:01:54.360
know, of our century, have
both said, you know, philosophy is

772
01:01:54.679 --> 01:01:59.039
useless. It's it's it's meaningless.
It's just a matter of you know,

773
01:01:59.400 --> 01:02:04.280
language, now, it's not about
anything bigger. So funny though, is

774
01:02:04.519 --> 01:02:09.239
Hogeing when he repeatedly, as I'm
sure you're well aware, repeatedly warned that

775
01:02:09.280 --> 01:02:14.880
we need to be aware, we
need to be wary of of an advanced

776
01:02:14.880 --> 01:02:21.119
civilization finding out we're here, because
they may come and colonize us, like

777
01:02:21.280 --> 01:02:28.280
you know the Spanish did or or
But that that's a philosophical statement, I

778
01:02:28.320 --> 01:02:35.559
mean, based on his philosophy of
I'm and his worldview really well, it's

779
01:02:35.559 --> 01:02:40.400
based upon his Yeah, it's based
upon his philosophy that intelligence will always you

780
01:02:40.440 --> 01:02:45.119
know, dominate the less intelligent.
Right, It's it's based upon, for

781
01:02:45.159 --> 01:02:49.920
sure, a very human philosophy,
a very human worldview. Right in human

782
01:02:50.000 --> 01:02:52.679
history, you know, the weaker
always gets sort of devoured by the stronger

783
01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:58.079
in some way. And and again, you know, he's making a huge

784
01:02:58.119 --> 01:03:01.599
philosophical claim here by saying we should
not try and contact aliens because they might

785
01:03:01.639 --> 01:03:06.320
come and kill us. Yeah for
sure. But again, you know upon

786
01:03:06.400 --> 01:03:10.599
what are you basing this? Are
you just basing this upon human philosophical constructs

787
01:03:10.599 --> 01:03:15.280
that that's what we do, or
are you basing it upon nature? Right,

788
01:03:15.360 --> 01:03:19.440
which is you know, the bigger
bacteria will always eat the smaller bacteria.

789
01:03:19.480 --> 01:03:21.800
I don't know. And is that
just the way nature is? You

790
01:03:21.840 --> 01:03:27.079
know, the strong will always destroy
the weak? And again these are these

791
01:03:27.079 --> 01:03:30.639
are philosophical claims he's making for a
guy who says philosophy is dead right,

792
01:03:31.199 --> 01:03:39.000
Yeah, that's funny and yeah,
and although also I think demonstrates I think

793
01:03:39.039 --> 01:03:49.880
the importance of mainstream moving towards the
into the astrobiological realms, which they It's

794
01:03:49.920 --> 01:03:52.920
only been recent. I mean,
SETI was a joke until maybe contact take

795
01:03:53.039 --> 01:03:57.119
came out. There was a lot
they made fun of it, just like

796
01:03:57.199 --> 01:04:02.000
they do the UFO topic. But
it's become so mainstream and NASA practically everything

797
01:04:02.000 --> 01:04:08.360
they talk about. They're almost an
astrobiology agency now that even though they're looking

798
01:04:08.360 --> 01:04:12.320
for microbes, which frustrates people in
the UFO field. I think that this

799
01:04:12.519 --> 01:04:20.719
search that and that the mainstreaming of
this this issue is has been extremely helpful

800
01:04:20.760 --> 01:04:28.159
to the UFO field because then it
makes people philosophies around, uh, these

801
01:04:28.360 --> 01:04:35.079
ideas which UFOs, whether or not
the mainstream science wants to wants it to

802
01:04:35.159 --> 01:04:40.159
be there. UFOs is a part
of that philosophy. And then you get

803
01:04:40.199 --> 01:04:45.039
papers like the one that you just
referenced. It brings that conversation to a

804
01:04:45.119 --> 01:04:49.760
higher level and it makes people start
to think about the philosophies that have been

805
01:04:49.920 --> 01:04:55.039
thought about, you know, amongst
the UFO researchers for for a longer period

806
01:04:55.039 --> 01:04:58.719
of time and philosophers themselves. I
mean, you know, we we can

807
01:04:58.760 --> 01:05:02.760
look at philosophers from to three hundred
thousand, a thousand years ago who have

808
01:05:03.239 --> 01:05:06.639
postulated, you know, what if
life exists elsewhere, like what if there's

809
01:05:06.840 --> 01:05:14.800
life beyond humanity? So it's it's
it's definitely sort of seeking extraterrestrial life,

810
01:05:14.840 --> 01:05:17.360
I think is very ancient. It's
very old. This is this is nothing

811
01:05:17.400 --> 01:05:20.440
new, and it's definitely getting more
coverage in the media. And I think

812
01:05:20.599 --> 01:05:25.639
I think extra trustrial life, sort
of looking for extra trustrial life is okay

813
01:05:25.679 --> 01:05:27.880
to cover in the media, right, you know, it doesn't. It

814
01:05:27.880 --> 01:05:30.679
doesn't get laughs right. There's no
X files music in the background that they

815
01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:33.199
play when they talk to you know, scientists or whatever who have in this

816
01:05:33.280 --> 01:05:39.639
type of study. But once you
start dealing with the UFO question, right,

817
01:05:39.840 --> 01:05:43.639
then suddenly everything goes squarely right.
The X Files music comes out and

818
01:05:43.639 --> 01:05:46.920
people start to snicker, and there's
that sort of that smirk with every question.

819
01:05:47.559 --> 01:05:51.719
I mean, you look at all
the blowback Mesrik got for his book

820
01:05:51.760 --> 01:05:56.960
thirty seventh Parallel, Right, he's
getting tons of blowback for writing a book

821
01:05:57.000 --> 01:06:01.239
about UFOs. He didn't if he
wrote a book about searching for extraterrestrial intelligence.

822
01:06:01.440 --> 01:06:03.199
I'm sure they would have, you
know, give him a cigar,

823
01:06:03.199 --> 01:06:06.320
slapped him on the back and said
good job. But he's getting he's getting

824
01:06:06.320 --> 01:06:11.360
a lot of hate for writing a
book about UFOs. And I think the

825
01:06:11.440 --> 01:06:17.199
two while very much connected as sort
of topics and subjects they're they're also very

826
01:06:17.239 --> 01:06:23.280
disconnected in the way culture handles them. It's okay to believe in extraterrestrial life.

827
01:06:23.519 --> 01:06:27.559
It's very okay. In fact,
most people do believe there's life elsewhere

828
01:06:27.559 --> 01:06:32.679
in the universe. It's it's not
necessarily okay to believe in UFOs, you

829
01:06:32.760 --> 01:06:36.679
know, and and and why is
that? Why is there this disconnect?

830
01:06:39.280 --> 01:06:43.599
And there there's going to be a
book coming out in the short future hopefully

831
01:06:43.880 --> 01:06:45.719
or the long future where I write
a chapter. I wrote an essay for

832
01:06:46.039 --> 01:06:53.960
a book concerning UFOs that tries to
address this. Why is the UFO question

833
01:06:54.480 --> 01:07:01.000
the UFO phenomenon a taboo when the
search for extraterrestrial life isn't And and I

834
01:07:01.000 --> 01:07:04.360
have my personal reasons or my personal
beliefs as to why, but I don't

835
01:07:04.360 --> 01:07:08.280
want to spoil it, so I'm
not going to tell you right and you

836
01:07:08.320 --> 01:07:12.599
know, uh, And it brings
to mind mitchi Okaku, who I think

837
01:07:12.679 --> 01:07:16.159
is incredible, and he talks about
the different k levels of society like you

838
01:07:16.239 --> 01:07:26.079
brought up earlier, huh, of
civilization, civilization of at level one Kardashiv.

839
01:07:26.119 --> 01:07:32.239
I always get that something like that. It's the Kardashian scale. Just

840
01:07:32.360 --> 01:07:36.239
kidding, but yeah, that's what
And people are probably familiar with it.

841
01:07:36.320 --> 01:07:42.079
I mean, it's being referenced more
and more lately, essentially how advanced to

842
01:07:42.159 --> 01:07:46.719
civilization is. But uh, I
think that's why he's always been open to

843
01:07:46.800 --> 01:07:51.440
the UFO topic. And he's always
shared that and I asked him once,

844
01:07:51.559 --> 01:07:54.880
why do you think, you know? Said he has a problem with that,

845
01:07:54.920 --> 01:07:58.400
and he says, well, they're
just astronomers. What do they know.

846
01:07:58.480 --> 01:08:01.159
I mean his point is at they're
not theoretical physicists. They can't think

847
01:08:01.199 --> 01:08:05.199
beyond what our current technology is.
They're looking at what's out there, trying

848
01:08:05.199 --> 01:08:09.840
to figure out what a rock is
composed of or something in space, as

849
01:08:09.880 --> 01:08:18.159
opposed to philosophizing around what is possible
out there. And so really that's what

850
01:08:18.239 --> 01:08:28.720
I think it's interesting is that the
existence of a microbe on Mars is related

851
01:08:29.039 --> 01:08:36.399
to an advanced civilization having being able
to visit our planet and maybe even observice

852
01:08:36.479 --> 01:08:43.279
maybe even you know, land and
walk around without us even being able to

853
01:08:43.399 --> 01:08:51.560
recognize that it is from somewhere else. Those two things are related, and

854
01:08:53.159 --> 01:08:57.960
he sees that and others just aren't
there yet. Yeah, and I think

855
01:08:58.000 --> 01:09:00.960
you know, the the UFO.
You know, people who believe in UFOs

856
01:09:00.960 --> 01:09:06.039
are people who think UFOs are real. Right, there's definitely cultural aspects there

857
01:09:06.199 --> 01:09:12.079
that you know that the academic world
doesn't want to deal with. I mean,

858
01:09:12.119 --> 01:09:15.920
you look at the search for extraterrestrial
intelligence or the search for external life

859
01:09:16.319 --> 01:09:19.720
on a scientific level. Right,
you're dealing with universities, you're dealing with

860
01:09:20.520 --> 01:09:27.079
multinational organizations, you're dealing with people
with PhDs behind their names, and and

861
01:09:27.159 --> 01:09:31.960
you're dealing with with with generally sort
of scientists who are who are privileged and

862
01:09:32.000 --> 01:09:36.479
come from a privileged place, and
they have an Ivory Tower background. And

863
01:09:36.520 --> 01:09:41.359
then you look at the UFO field
or ufology. You know, the UFO

864
01:09:41.439 --> 01:09:45.399
discourse it is it's very much not
that, right, it's the antithesis to

865
01:09:45.520 --> 01:09:49.359
that. UFO discourse is very democratized. There is no Ivory Tower of upology.

866
01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:57.079
There is no organization that says we
we give out master's degrees and PhDs

867
01:09:57.159 --> 01:10:00.840
in in UFO studies. There is
no and even if there was one,

868
01:10:00.960 --> 01:10:06.359
no one would take it seriously.
But I think ultimately you have, on

869
01:10:06.359 --> 01:10:15.920
one end on the UFO field,
this highly democratized, highly varied group of

870
01:10:15.000 --> 01:10:23.439
people who come from walks of life
from you know, they can basically afford

871
01:10:23.439 --> 01:10:28.439
their Internet connection every day to people
who you know, make millions of dollars

872
01:10:28.439 --> 01:10:33.560
and are former punk rock stars.
They make up the UFO field. It's

873
01:10:33.600 --> 01:10:40.279
so varied, it's so diverse.
And then you have you know, searching

874
01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:44.680
for life on Mars, for example, which is very academic one. It's

875
01:10:44.720 --> 01:10:46.119
you know, if I find a
piece of bacteria, well there's my proof.

876
01:10:46.159 --> 01:10:49.960
But it also again it comes from
a certain place, a certain cultural

877
01:10:50.119 --> 01:10:56.279
place, a place of privilege.
And and there's gonna be a lot of

878
01:10:56.720 --> 01:11:00.359
conflict there for sure between these two
groups of people. There there's going to

879
01:11:00.399 --> 01:11:05.960
be mistrust. You know, people
generally who have PhDs, you know,

880
01:11:06.319 --> 01:11:10.800
think certain things about themselves and they
think certain things about other people. I'm

881
01:11:10.840 --> 01:11:14.319
generalizing. This is not everyone obviously, but you know, there's there's feelings

882
01:11:14.359 --> 01:11:16.920
of well, you know what do
the people who study UFOs know? They're

883
01:11:16.920 --> 01:11:20.800
no one, right, they don't
have any academic background. Mostly they're just

884
01:11:21.039 --> 01:11:28.760
people who have have an interest and
and that does not a field make And

885
01:11:28.920 --> 01:11:31.479
UFO people would say, what are
you talking about? Like that's that's crazy.

886
01:11:31.520 --> 01:11:40.279
What why would you say something so
so so elitist? Right? I

887
01:11:40.319 --> 01:11:45.000
think UFO culture and UFO subculture looks
upon academic uh, the academic culture and

888
01:11:45.000 --> 01:11:49.039
and as being elitist and as being
like, who do you think you are

889
01:11:49.439 --> 01:11:54.399
to tell me you know what I
saw or or what I didn't see,

890
01:11:54.600 --> 01:12:00.359
or to tell me whether you know
UFOs are real or not be as I've

891
01:12:00.399 --> 01:12:04.119
talked to people who have seen them
or whatever. And you're going to have

892
01:12:04.159 --> 01:12:08.960
this, like I said, this, this headbutting between groups. And I

893
01:12:08.960 --> 01:12:13.520
think that's one reason why the UFO
field is not taken seriously. Is it's

894
01:12:13.520 --> 01:12:17.520
because it's it's it's a group of
people who are very disenfranchised by the broader

895
01:12:17.680 --> 01:12:25.479
sort of academic community as being just
a bunch of wackos who chase flying saucers

896
01:12:25.479 --> 01:12:30.319
around. And I don't necessarily think
it's fair, but I think what philosophy

897
01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:32.840
can do for that is philosophy this
is a bit of an equalizer. You

898
01:12:32.880 --> 01:12:35.319
know, it doesn't matter if you
have a PhD behind your name and you're

899
01:12:35.319 --> 01:12:41.119
a scientist. Philosophy can cut you
up just as bad as anything. And

900
01:12:41.800 --> 01:12:45.840
you know, if you're making philosophical
issues or sorry, if you're making philosophical

901
01:12:45.840 --> 01:12:50.199
mistakes of philosophical you're raising philosophical issues
in your work. Philosophy is sort of

902
01:12:50.199 --> 01:12:55.600
this equalizer of people so long as
people can understand it. And that's what

903
01:12:55.600 --> 01:12:58.399
I attempt to do with my blog
is is I try to bring philosophy to

904
01:12:58.399 --> 01:13:01.039
something that's a little more simple,
A little more jestible, but raises those

905
01:13:01.039 --> 01:13:04.960
same questions for people who don't necessarily
have a background in philosophy or background in

906
01:13:04.960 --> 01:13:10.520
critical theory. I try to keep
it approachable because I know philosophy can be

907
01:13:10.640 --> 01:13:15.960
very, very sticky and difficult at
times. But I want to be critical

908
01:13:15.000 --> 01:13:19.319
of the academics because not enough people
are critical of them. Mm hmm.

909
01:13:19.880 --> 01:13:24.760
So I guess that comes back to
I think what will need to be pretty

910
01:13:24.800 --> 01:13:29.920
much are wrapping up is why have
you done this? I mean, UFOs

911
01:13:29.960 --> 01:13:34.640
not a you know, it's it's
strife, full of strife and difficulty philosophy

912
01:13:34.920 --> 01:13:44.239
also not something that's necessarily seen as
positive. What inspired you to tackle this

913
01:13:44.800 --> 01:13:50.600
and this topic in this manner?
Sure? So I've always been interested in

914
01:13:50.640 --> 01:13:57.760
the UFO question, and as a
kid growing up, you know, I

915
01:13:57.840 --> 01:14:01.079
was surrounded by you know, the
X Files and Twilight Zone and Outer Limits

916
01:14:01.079 --> 01:14:04.439
and then all that stuff. So
it was definitely a star trek. It

917
01:14:04.479 --> 01:14:09.600
was definitely a part of my upbringing
and always thinking about the extraterrestrial question and

918
01:14:09.840 --> 01:14:13.560
or you know, uh, do
you know when Fox Molder wakes up and

919
01:14:13.600 --> 01:14:15.720
he sees all those grays standing outside
his window and freaks him out like,

920
01:14:15.960 --> 01:14:17.960
is that real? Did that?
Actually? That's so cool? I wanted,

921
01:14:18.079 --> 01:14:21.279
and so I wanted to kind of
get into it. And when I

922
01:14:21.319 --> 01:14:27.079
first started, and if you really
go back into the Annals of Terror Obscura,

923
01:14:27.279 --> 01:14:30.279
the blog that I that I run, you know, it wasn't very

924
01:14:30.279 --> 01:14:33.199
philosophical at all. It was just
my sort of my rantings and musings on

925
01:14:33.560 --> 01:14:39.239
the UFO question. And then I
started to realize that there was this big

926
01:14:39.279 --> 01:14:44.680
gap. And Chris Rakowski, who's
been definitely a mentor for me, as

927
01:14:44.680 --> 01:14:47.680
well as Ryan Sprague who's a young
guy like myself but definitely sort of said,

928
01:14:47.720 --> 01:14:49.600
you know, I think that this
is a gap that you should try

929
01:14:49.640 --> 01:14:56.680
and fill. And my background,
I have a small background in philosophy,

930
01:14:56.760 --> 01:14:59.960
my my, my actual academic background
is in a field called critical theory,

931
01:15:00.039 --> 01:15:04.119
which is sort of a sub subversion
of philosophy. It's a subversion, Oh

932
01:15:04.119 --> 01:15:09.000
my god. It's like a sub
section of philosophy that deals with more sort

933
01:15:09.000 --> 01:15:13.439
of social and cultural aspects of philosophy. And I was like, well,

934
01:15:13.479 --> 01:15:15.439
you know, no one's really doing
this, like, no one's talking about

935
01:15:15.600 --> 01:15:16.880
UFO. It was in a philosophical
sense, and why not. So I

936
01:15:16.880 --> 01:15:19.720
start to kind of do my research, and I realized that there's there's a

937
01:15:19.760 --> 01:15:23.920
handful of philosophers out there who'll even
talk about the subject in any way.

938
01:15:24.399 --> 01:15:26.319
So I was like, well,
you know what, forget it script,

939
01:15:26.319 --> 01:15:30.399
I'm just gonna go do it.
So I started to write more philosophical posts

940
01:15:30.439 --> 01:15:34.119
about the UFO question and critical sort
of critical theory posts and cultural studies posts,

941
01:15:34.119 --> 01:15:36.600
and I gotta be honest, it's
kind of taken off from there.

942
01:15:38.479 --> 01:15:42.079
People have been really commenting saying stuff
like this is awesome to keep going.

943
01:15:42.199 --> 01:15:45.039
This is definitely something that needs to
be addressed in the UFO field. So

944
01:15:45.279 --> 01:15:50.600
I'm happy to do it. And
yeah, it's great. I'm really enjoying

945
01:15:50.640 --> 01:15:56.800
it. Well, good, I'm
happy you're doing it. Your last post

946
01:15:56.960 --> 01:16:01.000
was was great. It makes people
think. And I have had just a

947
01:16:01.039 --> 01:16:08.600
wonderful time, a great time talking
to you now. Really I feel like

948
01:16:08.960 --> 01:16:11.960
you know, and I feel that
way with the best conversations, which is

949
01:16:12.039 --> 01:16:15.479
often actually with the podcast that you
know, my view of the whole field

950
01:16:15.479 --> 01:16:19.600
has been tweaked a bit, and
it certainly has in a positive way.

951
01:16:19.760 --> 01:16:25.119
So I'm so glad that we did
this. Thank you so much. It's

952
01:16:25.159 --> 01:16:28.920
been fun. Thank you so much
to MJ. That was such a fun

953
01:16:29.119 --> 01:16:34.199
interview. It was a great first
discussion, and he's just a really cool

954
01:16:34.319 --> 01:16:38.680
guy. I mean, he felt
so flattered to be on the show,

955
01:16:38.760 --> 01:16:43.119
and I felt flattered to have him
because I think that he's a great thinker

956
01:16:43.199 --> 01:16:47.640
and it's always fun when new people
with new perspectives come into this field and

957
01:16:47.760 --> 01:16:53.600
start to be active, like he
is, writing and kind of getting his

958
01:16:53.720 --> 01:16:57.720
message out there. So I had
a lot of fun talking to him.

959
01:16:57.760 --> 01:17:01.479
Of course, he does get a
little worried, you know that perhaps this

960
01:17:01.600 --> 01:17:04.960
isn't a perspective that a lot of
people want to discuss, and I guess

961
01:17:05.039 --> 01:17:10.119
we'll see. I personally liked this
angle, as you can tell from the

962
01:17:10.159 --> 01:17:14.560
interview, and so you know,
it'd be great to hear some feedback if

963
01:17:14.600 --> 01:17:18.560
you guys felt the same way.
You can find his website Tara obscura dot

964
01:17:18.600 --> 01:17:25.479
net to read more, including more
about that article that he wrote recently about

965
01:17:25.520 --> 01:17:30.880
euphological belief systems that we refer to
in this interview. It's a great read

966
01:17:30.960 --> 01:17:34.520
and I think it's really interesting and
you all can kind of see where you

967
01:17:34.640 --> 01:17:41.680
fit in all of this, and
I think it helps to kind of it's

968
01:17:41.720 --> 01:17:46.760
always important to understand people who see
things differently in order to work together.

969
01:17:47.680 --> 01:17:53.239
I'm a big believer, and I
have to remind myself to be compassionate and

970
01:17:53.279 --> 01:17:57.399
to put myself in other people's shoes. And I think that's important because a

971
01:17:57.439 --> 01:18:03.000
lot of people feel strongly and about
certain things, and there's reasons why,

972
01:18:03.319 --> 01:18:09.720
and typically those reasons why. Often
those reasons why are not nefarious or bad

973
01:18:09.800 --> 01:18:15.760
or negative or selfish. Unfortunately that's
not always the case, but sometimes I

974
01:18:15.760 --> 01:18:19.399
think even more than often than not, it is the case. So and

975
01:18:19.520 --> 01:18:25.439
when we realize that, then it's
easier for us to work together on things.

976
01:18:25.680 --> 01:18:28.439
And that's why a lot of you
know, I get a lot of

977
01:18:28.439 --> 01:18:32.520
feedback with certain people that are on
the show, or certain people that we

978
01:18:32.600 --> 01:18:38.800
have at the conference, or certain
people I speak positively about who are maybe

979
01:18:38.920 --> 01:18:43.760
very fringe or have some really more
speculative ideas, and they're like, why

980
01:18:43.760 --> 01:18:46.399
are you even talking about that person's
you know, a goofball and they're so

981
01:18:46.520 --> 01:18:49.000
full of it and this or that. But you know, a lot of

982
01:18:49.039 --> 01:18:54.560
these people, whether or not we
agree with or disagree with them, are

983
01:18:54.600 --> 01:19:00.439
really coming from a genuine, honest
place. They they really believe these things

984
01:19:00.439 --> 01:19:05.640
they're they're not and they're looking for
truth and this is what they feel,

985
01:19:06.119 --> 01:19:12.279
uh, they've discovered, which is
their truth. And but they're not out

986
01:19:12.279 --> 01:19:15.600
there to make money or to become
popular. They're doing this, uh for

987
01:19:15.720 --> 01:19:19.960
the same reason the rest of us
are just looking for answers and looking for

988
01:19:20.039 --> 01:19:26.520
truth. And you know, if
someone's coming from a good place like that,

989
01:19:26.000 --> 01:19:30.319
I that's what I appreciate. And
I'll always respect those people, even

990
01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:35.920
if they have very different viewpoints than
I do, you know, and I

991
01:19:36.239 --> 01:19:40.279
can appreciate those people, and those
are people I like to associate with,

992
01:19:40.359 --> 01:19:44.640
even if they have out their ideas. Some of my favorite people have some

993
01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:49.239
pretty wild ideas, and some of
you may call them bat poop crazy,

994
01:19:49.439 --> 01:19:56.000
but hey, they're my friends,
so don't talk too much about my friends

995
01:19:56.079 --> 01:20:00.359
like that. Anyway. Speaking of
friends, you're are my friends. And

996
01:20:00.520 --> 01:20:04.680
I'm gonna get to see a lot
more friends at the UFO Congress coming up

997
01:20:04.720 --> 01:20:09.359
here in just a few weeks.
As we said before, the schedule is

998
01:20:09.399 --> 01:20:13.800
posted online, and the big news
is just about what's going on with the

999
01:20:13.840 --> 01:20:15.680
Phoenix Lights. We're gonna have a
lot of stuff on that I mentioned at

1000
01:20:15.680 --> 01:20:18.600
the top. Of the show to
Martin that the Phoenix move On people are

1001
01:20:18.600 --> 01:20:25.079
coming in. We're going to interview
them about the Phoenix Lights and we're gonna

1002
01:20:25.079 --> 01:20:28.439
be playing and we're also going this
is really cool. I think I've told

1003
01:20:28.439 --> 01:20:33.760
you guys about this before. The
Arizona Historical Society a huge building, I

1004
01:20:33.760 --> 01:20:39.640
mean, fancy, fancy place because
they have all the historical records for Arizona.

1005
01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:45.800
They actually have a Phoenix Lights exhibit. So tomorrow Michael and I are

1006
01:20:45.840 --> 01:20:48.520
going to be going down there and
we're gonna be filming that exhibit and we're

1007
01:20:48.520 --> 01:20:53.600
gonna be interviewing the director of the
museum to talk about, well, why

1008
01:20:53.640 --> 01:20:56.399
did you do this and how did
you put this up and all of that

1009
01:20:56.479 --> 01:21:00.520
sort of thing, and so that's
gonna be really cool. And then we're

1010
01:21:00.520 --> 01:21:05.000
gonna play parts of that that video
and interview at the conference. But then

1011
01:21:05.039 --> 01:21:11.039
on the anniversary in March of the
Phoenix Lights events will be putting together a

1012
01:21:11.159 --> 01:21:14.439
video that will put up on YouTube
for all of you to see. But

1013
01:21:14.479 --> 01:21:17.159
it's really cool that they do this. In fact, the local Phoenix move

1014
01:21:17.239 --> 01:21:26.560
On got to be involved with creating
this this display and they built such a

1015
01:21:26.560 --> 01:21:32.760
strong relationship with the museum that they
now do their meetings at the Historical Society

1016
01:21:32.880 --> 01:21:39.920
Museum. And I mean they've got
this big, beautiful stage with with you

1017
01:21:39.960 --> 01:21:45.000
know, cameras and speakers. It's
like a movie theater. This place is

1018
01:21:45.039 --> 01:21:47.680
super nice. In fact, we're
gonna be posting soon. I did a

1019
01:21:47.720 --> 01:21:51.560
talk there just last month, and
we're gonna be posting that on on YouTube

1020
01:21:53.039 --> 01:21:57.680
soon. Here they Dennis, the
guy I talked about earlier. He owns

1021
01:21:57.680 --> 01:22:02.560
a video company and he filmed and
so put it together. It's great.

1022
01:22:02.640 --> 01:22:08.920
So thank you so much to the
local Phoenix Move on, Stacy, Jim

1023
01:22:09.159 --> 01:22:13.359
and Dennis. Thank you so much
to Caleb Hanks who puts the music together.

1024
01:22:13.520 --> 01:22:15.720
At the beginning of the show.
Oh yeah, before I get off

1025
01:22:15.760 --> 01:22:20.399
the UFO Congress, so I should
say, come please to the conference.

1026
01:22:20.640 --> 01:22:24.960
You can go to Ufocongress dot com
to get tickets, and be sure to

1027
01:22:24.960 --> 01:22:27.840
get your tickets before the end of
the month, because if you're planning on

1028
01:22:27.960 --> 01:22:30.359
just showing up and getting tickets,
which is fine, you can do that,

1029
01:22:30.920 --> 01:22:35.000
but you're gonna get a better price
if you order them online prior to

1030
01:22:35.119 --> 01:22:39.359
the event. And surprisingly, a
lot of people, almost half the people

1031
01:22:39.399 --> 01:22:42.039
show up and buy their tickets there, which is cool. You know,

1032
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:45.800
that makes it easy, but you'll
save quite a bit of money if you

1033
01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:49.640
go online now and pre order,
and that way we can have a printed

1034
01:22:49.720 --> 01:22:54.039
badge for you, which is all
nice, and you can be that much

1035
01:22:54.079 --> 01:22:58.640
more official and everybody can see who
you are. Although some people get,

1036
01:22:58.720 --> 01:23:01.239
of course, afraid that the gout's
going to know who they are, and

1037
01:23:01.680 --> 01:23:05.680
the secret informants that are at the
conference will know who they are. And

1038
01:23:06.279 --> 01:23:10.039
you know, if you're that paranoid, just to be honest, if you

1039
01:23:10.119 --> 01:23:14.119
really think that these guys are there
looking at people and who knows, I

1040
01:23:14.159 --> 01:23:16.399
don't know if they are or not. I've heard that that happens, but

1041
01:23:16.760 --> 01:23:20.319
they're probably going to be able to
find your name either way, whether or

1042
01:23:20.399 --> 01:23:25.520
not you have it on their badge
or not. In fact, if they're

1043
01:23:25.560 --> 01:23:28.600
there and they want to know who
you are, you can save some tax

1044
01:23:28.640 --> 01:23:31.039
dollar money by just having your name
on your badge so they don't have to

1045
01:23:31.039 --> 01:23:35.840
spend extra time looking up who you
are in the first place, or hacking

1046
01:23:35.960 --> 01:23:40.960
or whatever they're going to do.
I don't know that that really happens.

1047
01:23:40.960 --> 01:23:46.680
I'm kind of skeptical, but who
knows. It's a crazy world, people,

1048
01:23:46.960 --> 01:23:53.279
It's a wild and crazy world.
All right, Well enough goofiness,

1049
01:23:53.399 --> 01:23:56.680
enough for the show all together,
we're just going to end this thing.

1050
01:23:56.840 --> 01:24:00.399
I should be back next week.
As you all know, it's dicey this

1051
01:24:00.479 --> 01:24:04.760
time of year as to win.
We're gonna do shows because we're so busy

1052
01:24:04.800 --> 01:24:08.840
with this conference. I mean,
there's only a few of us, like

1053
01:24:08.920 --> 01:24:12.359
two or three of us doing all
of this, so we're just swamped.

1054
01:24:12.560 --> 01:24:16.399
And but I'll do my best because
I love doing the show. It's so

1055
01:24:16.560 --> 01:24:19.960
fun to talk to people like MJ. So hopefully I'll have another show next

1056
01:24:20.000 --> 01:24:24.359
week. In fact, I'm working
on one that I think will be really

1057
01:24:24.359 --> 01:24:30.479
cool and important, So we'll let
you know more about that when you show

1058
01:24:30.600 --> 01:24:34.039
up to listen to the show next
week. Otherwise, you guys, have

1059
01:24:34.319 --> 01:24:40.199
a wonderful week and I will talk
to you soon. Audios move, touch hoose