The following is a presentation of Playfly Sports properties in Michigan State Sports Properties.
In one ward, I'd described Jimmy Ray as iconic, impactful, intelligent.
He's the first black quarterback from the South to win a national title. Jimmy
Ray is tough. Jimmy Ray was a bad dude. Could not find a
better football man. Jimmy Ray should have been a head coach so many times
over and I just caught like I see it. He was why I learned
what the word indelible miant. They explained, indelible means that they could never
take it away from you and it's going to be there forever. Well well,
well what a teaser that was right there. For our special guests.
It is Thursday February twenty thirty, twenty twenty three. I'm your host,
Jason straight On along my co host Otis Wiley in ju Cho Cochprick in the
House and this is Sparta. Be sure to click the link and subscribe buttons.
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Have an idea for a future episode, let us know in the comment
section below. And now back to the show. Gentlemen, how you guys
doing today? You know, we got a special guest, but we got
to talk about the basketball game that happened a couple days ago. Great event.
Michigan State knocks off Indiana at home. Eighty sixty five free pancakes for
everybody, by the way, But what a great game. Otis. Absolutely,
It's just throw that word from Jay. He always says absolutely. You
got to confirm that it was a great game. You know what obviously has
happened on our campus. You know winning, I would say winning solves everything,
but winning does allow us to come together and heal. And you see
you know Alan Haller and a d from IU. You know, the big
step for IU to come out with the shooting. That's supporting us and Spartan
strong the student section. Man, Like I got a text, uh,
you know from someone stating, you know, if it wasn't for that Spartan
Sunday event, then we hosted to you know, at least allow students to
feel comfortable welcome to come back to campus. Uh, we may not have
had that strong showing of you know of yesterday night with the zone and then
just all of the fans coming back. It was a late night game,
so nine pm. You can't really you know, expect people to come out
that late, but it was a series of just love support. The players
truly rallied through as y'all were watching. You had some phenomenal you know guys
stepping up to play and win this for not just himselves obviously for a Spartan
nation. So you know, I wanted to just know the place of note
that I love this era of Tom is like this is the age of his
career where he's not afraid to shed tears as a man, as a guy
who was always in the public, Like I really fully respect Tom for this
or just it's okay to fully give your emotions out and cry man and just
to kind of say this is a healing process, like he truly hasn't I
don't know, had time to process what has transpired. He's been kind of
the spokesperson for us when it comes to, you know, being out there
individual being the spokesperson. So great, great game, Great kudos to our
fans engagement team who really stepped in to truly make sure that things were smooth
and things that were you know, receptives of everything after what happened. It
was just a flow. Good game, man. So love that we got
the dove because, like I told you guys on our last show, I
definitely left Bloomington really really bitter, and I'm glad we got them got them
back last night or two nights ago. Yeah, speaking of the emotion,
you know is Oh did show a lot of emotion the other day, JU
And you know he had a great interview after the ballgame with Scott van Pelba
ESPN. You've been there for so long and you've had incredible highs and you've
mentioned individual last week, some difficult lows this night, the significance for your
community, the significance for your team, the significance for you. I'm asking
you to put words to something that's probably hard, but give me your best
shot. Wow, you are asking me to do a hard thing. But
I'd say Scott that it was hopefully two hours of joy, you know,
because there's been a lot of sadness here and I think that's one thing sports
can do for you. It can exhilarate you and make you all come together.
There were fifteen thousand people there tonight and I felt like I could give
a hug to every one of them by how my team played. Yeah,
that said it all right there, you know, those words that our coach
Izzo said at the end of the game in that interview with SVP there said
it all. And just all the tearor the tragic that happened in these lants
and you know, a little over a week ago now and just given that
two hours of escape, you know, where people could feel normal for a
bit, could go on and all be in the same building and cheer for
the same cause, cheer for you know, their school, cheer for that
pride, and it's just you know, Michigan State, this, you know,
past week is just exuding you know that extra pride. It mean,
it means so much right now to be Spartan and going out there and doing
that and a steal of Otis's words. Kudos to everyone that was involved in,
you know, making this go off without a hitch. Kudos to you
know everyone with the shirts, you know, the Spartan Strong shirts in you
know, in the student section throughout the arena, and the you know,
the tributes that were paid, you know by Indiana, you know, singing
the school Shadows, all that stuff, and getting those students back and giving
that sense of normalcy that goes a long ways. It sure does. Tyson
Walker, huge game from him the other night, a lot, a lot,
a lot of great performances, gutty performances from Michigan State. Status quo
of a Tom Izzo led team, what Misigan State fans have grown accustomed to,
especially as you get closer to March, given the tragic circumstances just happened
a week ago. Yeah, you know, you think about we always let's
break it down basketball's terms, Like clearly we're a football show, but defense
and rebounding wins games. And you see that we were all over the place
and just rallying it around each other. You had freshman Jackson Cohler stepping up
against All American you know, power forward center IU. You know, it's
just the opportunity to see that. You know, we we rose to the
occasion, man, And you know our first it started out a little bit
ugly, right, you know, they got ahead of us, and I
was like, oh, man, like I don't know, man, and
then you just start to see them rally through and we ended out on a
great note. Man, So definitely excited that we're able to go into our
next game and you know, at least get a little bit up in the
rankings for a better seeding for big ten play a conference tournament, and you
know that big ranked win gives us a little belt knots on our belt to
you know, get a hopefully a better seed when it comes to NCAA Sunday
selection. Yeah, I like that otis. You said defense rebounding, but
don't forget free throws because they were money. Bro May Maddy Mady Man,
Madi look Mady. So my man, Oh my gosh, my man goes
after it and gets it. There was one you probably saw. There was
one where it was a loose ball and I saw him jet and just knew
it was probably gonna go out. But go for it almost saved it.
And like I just saw Izzo with that, like you know, is those
famous and that's where you were like, man, like he wanted it as
bad as obviously anybody out there, but Madi Mady was the glue that kind
of kept that going with Swatten Rebounds got the dunk on a on uh TRACE's
TRACE's head, which is great because I remember he got that on on Joey
Howser last last game we went there. So just great elements. Man,
seeing a lot of faces, familiar faces, and the stands just hugging like
no one was afraid to give you a hug or say hey, how are
you doing. I think this opened up an opportunit for everyone to just come
together closer. Yeah, speaking of what you brought up a ben in to
go like the Spartan strong shirts and we want to make everyone aware of the
situation that's happening around the traumatic incident that happened, and there are proper channels
to go through in order to get the right licensed equipment, shirts and things
like that. This is a tweet that was sent out by Erica Austin,
who runs the licensing department at Michigan State. Yeah, man, it's unfortunate
that we obviously have to address this, but I think in any certain situation,
you know, this happens. You know, this happens in any big
event, super Bowl, NCAA tournament, March Madness. You just have people
that really you know, taken upon themselves to produce merchandise sell it and not
get the proper channels or protocols where others have done the right things and going
through the proper channels of becoming a licensee that's approved from the university. And
so just be aware, like it's almost like you've got to verify when you're
purchasing something. You need to be aware of what you're purchasing it through.
But we also are providing you the steps in you know, processes that Erica
and her team has put together to go through the right proper channels to order
Spartan Strong shirts that also the proceeds will go to the Spartan Strong Fund.
And so just be aware of, you know, basically buying fake merch that's
not fully licensed and approved. Well said, you know, had to cover
it. Just want to make sure everybody knows, you know, this is
a show that is brought to you by Michigan State and the properly licensed people
on here thanks to otis. So we want to appreciate. I appreciate that
Straight gave me the official status that I properly I'm an official proper oh boy.
But look so so speaking of you know, our sponsor, I think
I hop they got a free short stack because because they did hit seventy points
a couple of days ago, there's going to be a National Pancake Day on
February twenty eighth. Talk about that a little bit, fellas. Yeah,
look, I don't know who loves pancakes more. Is it me or Ju
or is it you Straight. I'll let Jay you take this little he loves
some pancakes. I'm all in for the pancakes. Scan the QR code.
Yeah, pancakes love it. I'm just a traditionalist. You guys are prior
of fancy with your paint, hocking chips everything. Give me playing pancakes,
butter and extra syrup. That's it. Yeah, So I'm with you that
National Pancake Day February twenty eighth, Go support it. The proteins are going
to a good cost, the Spartan Strong Foundation just part Strong Fund. I'm
sorry, you know, if you got an opportunity to now scan that QR
code, all information is there. It's for a good cause and you get
to you know, enjoy, you know, while supporting a good cause.
Yeah, and just to be clear too that it's all Michigan participating stores,
like all I hop stores in the state of Michigan. So this is very
huge, you know, one stepping up I Hop stepping up to one to
do their part. They've already did part with Kyle providing food to the to
the responders that were helping with the aftermath of the mass shooting. But go
to your local I Hop and proceeds one buying pancakes too. You have the
opportunity to donate. If you don't get an ie Hop and you don't love
breakfast, you still can scan that QR code and donate directly. So just
keep that in mind. And all the funds go directly to the official Spartan
Strong Fund for Michigan State Athletics. We have it here on the screen for
you ww dot go dot m s U dot EU backslash Spartan Strong International House
of Pains. I have stepping up to the plate once again, and here's
a message from our friends at i hop Right now, I Hop the six
dollars Rudy two d Fresh and Fruity Combo is back two eggs, two bacon
strips, and two fruit top pancakes only from i hop. Download the app
and earn free food with every order. Dining only limited time at participating locations.
Prices may vary. Well. When you join I Hop's new rewards program,
the International Bank of Pancakes and start stacking PAN coins towards free food,
would you get a smile on your plate? Download the app and join the
rewards program today. Well, guys, moment everyone's been waiting on to see
the man in the myth, the legend. Jimmy Ray who joins This is
Sparta right now from North Carolina. Now you doing, Jack North Pack.
Yeah, Hello, it's a pleasure to be on. Hello to all the
Sparkan Nation and the Spartan Strong. I was observing of the game the other
night. It was quite a quite a healing atmosphere, and it was great
to see the Sparkan Nation UH come together and and also pull out a victory
over I U, which was much needed. But I'm glad to be a
part of this today and hopefully as the healing continues in East Lansing, all
the prayers of all the Spartan people around the around the nation. Uh,
well, well received. Definitely definitely appreciate that. I appreciate you taking some
time, you know, off the golf course to join us for a little
bit here. Yeah. Well, we had a couple of nice days down
in North Carolina. The last this week we've had some temperatures in the mid
seventies, which is unusual for February. But uh, I live here in
the Forest Creek, and we have two golf courses, and so with the
good weather, we've been able to take advantage and we have to play something.
Yeah, go ahead and rub it in where we uh were shutting down
the streets right now freezing rain and sleep, but definitely go ahead rub that
in. Yeah. Yeah, I've always had a cutoff of East slash in
October. The fifteenth is my final day. I don't go the way that's
that's in Michigan pushes you to like into October, right the game Michigan game.
Yeah, yeah, I remember, you know specifically, you know,
I'm going to jump ahead because we're going to go back again, but out
from the first encounter I had with you, really in with you when you
were my coach with the Jets, and uh, the first thing you said
to me was and it was that recap the anniversary of the ten ten tie
when they brought out the sixty six team and the retired Bubbles jersey, and
it was that downpour, but you had it was a Saturday night and you
had a game somewhere else, so that they flew you out there and you
stood in that rain and there and uh, I think you even had a
couple. I'm never going to go there. But the first day I saw
the adjustment, silly like you had me out in that rain and you guys
got to blew that game, remember that? Yeah, yeah, well yeah,
they flew me in for the for the ceremony. I had to do
an ESPN presentation, doing the doing the day, but I had to get
back to Buffalo because we played the Bills the next Sunday, so I had
to leave at halftime of the game. And when I left, after standing
in the ring and Bubble's jersey was put up in the in the Ring of
honor, a name was put up in the Ring of honor. His jersey
was retired. Notre Dame was a hit, like thirty four to seven or
something, and so I took the flight into Buffalo and I didn't want to
I went to the hotel. I didn't want to ask what the final school
was. And I got there to see the end of the game and Michigan
State had come back. I don't know if it was led by you,
but they made a come back. That's one of that's one of the reasons
you took me in New York there it was huge you you yeah, man,
I recall we were leading, Yeah, the second was where you were
touched, right. Yeah, we were up and then we blew that lead
because they wanted to give a high coach blame our office of coordinator for that
one. You need a better play calls. But everybody knows it very well,
coach. So you know, going back to your time in North Carolina
growing up as a young man, right, we want to go back to
those times and your recruitment ultimately to Michigan State and the ESPN or no NFL
did a great show on you the Indelible where it talks about your recruitment in
that game. I believe it was an East West Shrine game. Let's let's
take a listen here. Any games come back to memory in terns of where
you dominated. The most fun for me was the East West Shrine game.
I scored touchdown pass through two, I ran one. I ran a kickoff
back for a touchdown. Before the final drive when the game was in the
balance, they put me in as a free safety and intercepted the past.
It was a bad wood. Everything was yeah, and I had a day
and I won the Most Valuable Player award. I was on top of the
world. Was that the moment that you knew like I really got it right?
Or college scholarships already coming in at a time work, Yeah, they
were coming in from historical black schools. No athlete out of e Smith had
gone to a white school or to an integrated college. My thought was that
I was going to go to an HBCU. What changed the trajectory of everything
was the Most Valuable Player trophy was presented by cal Stole and he was an
assistant coach at Michigan State. And that's ignited and started my recruiting to Michigan
State. M HM, So did coach talk about that? I mean,
it was like five touchdowns in one game in high school running intercepts. I
come on, coach, Yeah, that's incredible. I had. I had
one of those days that you only dream about. But UH and it and
it came at the right time because there were two two All Star games in
the state of North Carolina at the time. UH. The white players played
in the North South Shrine Game, which was North Carolina versus South Carolina.
I was I was voted to play in the game, but I was it
was illegal for me to play because my school was UH the Negro High School
Athletic Association, and they wouldn't allow me to play. UH. And then
the the the the segregated schools in the state of North Carolina played in there.
Their bowl game was the East West Shrine Game was held in Durham,
North Carolina, and all the best players in the East played against the best
players in the West. And I won the starting job as a quarterback and
for the East in that game and won the most Valuable Player award. And
as I mentioned, cal Stolee, who was an assistant coach at Michigan State,
was recruited in the South and he presented the most Valuable Player trophy.
The player Award trophy. Uh, And that's what was ignited and started my
recruitment at Michigan State MHM coach. You know, I had the privilege of
going down there and working at Southern Methodist University and there's there's there's a player
by the name Jerry Lebias. Kind of you guys are in that same kind
of specially you up here on the north of mission can stay in him at
the Southwest Conference. Then at that time, I mean just talk about the
one coming up here making that making that decision to come here to Michigan State.
But did you know at that time the pipeline that you were creating or
opening up for Michigan State by making that decision, because it was not the
most favorable decision to come to a p w Y school versus an HBCU.
Uh No, not at all. Because I I grew up under in the
in the South, as Jerry did, under the gym Crow laws, where
you wasn't allowed to play or compete athletically against the white schools. The white
players in the state were separated. And my my recruitment uh to Michigan State
was kind of an anomaly because uh one, I played a position that that
didn't let itself to that I would be successful in college. And during the
recruitment period, I didn't go up to Michigan State until the spring of the
year, like early summer for on my recruiting visit, and I think that
was by design. And when I got there, the weather was lovely and
it's pretty and those storm the snow I did. I had no idea that
he could get his cold, that the air could get his cold as a
guy in Michigan and the snow. The first time I saw the snow,
I went back to bed. I was living in East Wilson Hall. I
went back to bed and the assistant coach, Hank Bullet, came and knock
knocked my door down and asked me what I was doing. Why I wo
wasn't in class, And I said, it's snowing because in the state of
North Carolina. In North Carolina didn't get much snow, but if we did,
the school was out of canceled. And so I thought the same thing.
And I looked out, looked out the window across that field toward the
Duffy door. The building wasn't there then, but that's still going toward the
stadium and the smoke stacking. As far as my eye could see, it
was nothing but snow. And I said, no, Boddy, I went
back to I went back to bed. But I soon learned he said,
well, if you're not going to school in the snow, you're not going
to class. You won't be going to class until May. So I figured
out I had to I had to gear up and get some gear to to
to make that trek across the across the campus get to get over to Berkeley
Hall. But uh, it was. It was quite a quite a transition
for me, wonder Weather. Two being a being playing with athletes that were
white, playing for the first time with white athletes because I didn't that had
happened in college, and then trying to be a leader h and be the
quarterback, which was a negative. Also, so being able to being allowed
to eat in the Kellogg Center, in the restaurant, being allowed to stay
in the hotel, all those things were first for me because in the segregated
South with the gym crow loogs, you couldn't eat in a restaurant and you
couldn't and had to go to the back of the back of the back door
of the theater to go in the movie, and you couldn't You couldn't drink,
and you couldn't get water or go to the restroom. They had black
colored only restroom, colored only water fountains, white only bathroom. So all
of that was a transition for me my first year there at Deslancing. Yeah,
so talk about that transition. How was that? Like was it were
you apprehensive at first? Like to you know something some points drinking out a
water fountain? You know, like what's that? Like? You know,
shock? What was that? Like? Well, well, it was,
it was different. But that happened when I was when I was a young
kid. The water fountain incident happened when I was a young kid. I
woul't think I was. I hadn't gotten to my I wasn't. I wasn't
a teenager. I was probably nine at eight, nine or ten years old
or maybe a little little maybe eight maybe seven or eight. But I was
down in the downtown Feedville with my mom in the in the store, uh
and it was cresst H Department store, and not paying attention, I left
my mom. She was behind me, and I went to get some water
and I fell a snatched me by the shoulder and said, boy, get
over here, and I was at the white water Uh. And unbeknownst to
me at that that age, at that time, I didn't know. I
didn't I got the lesson about Jim Crow and the colored only water fountains and
the colored only bathrooms, and uh, the white only water fountains, and
so I understood from that point on. Uh. Then I got the lesson
about Emmett Till because that wasn't that far removed from my from my era,
my age group, all the black kids in the South, black boys in
the South, was made aware of the killing of Mt. Till Uh in
Mississippi when he visited from Chicago, and Uh supposedly UH made an off,
off off comment to a white lady in a store and then he got taken
out of bed at night and beaten and a cement block tied to him and
UH put in the bottom of the river. So that story in the South
was what every young kid grew up, every young black kid grew up understanding.
And so when we were downtown, when we were old a little older
and would go by ourself, we knew that white lady was coming down the
street on the side of we were on the go over across over the street,
and so there would be no incident involving white people because of the Jim
Crow laws. No, man, wow, I mean you think about that,
coach when we talk about what's been what happened at Michigan State over a
week ago, and the trauma and the healing process that has to occur that
we know about now from mental health professionals, going back to that point in
your life when you had that heavy burden on your mind as a young man,
really young man, thinking about Okay, if I don't if I say
something wrong, accused of doing something, I could be killed because I mean
speaking to a white woman or whatever that was at that time. Then you
go into a locker room that's integrated in East Lancey, you find yourself there,
talk about how how that was for you being around those players with your
experience as a young man being what it was back in North Carolina. Well,
Jayson, I think I think what helped the transition in the process was
was Duffy and and I was a class behind Bubba Bubba Smith and Jean Washington
and George Webster and Jimmy Summers h and Jess Phillips, all of the guys
that came transitioned out of the South. Uh. I came into class and
my host when I visited there was Charlie Matt Dogg thorn Hill, who was
a linebacker on the team. UH So I had I got. I got
some counseling and some education from the guys that had come before me. And
I think the thing that really helped was the fact that when I went,
freshmen wasn't eligible. Freshmen wasn't eligible. You were separated really from the varsity
and you and you stayed in your own little cocoon in practice, and you
only got out of that when you went up to the varsity field do to
get beat up by the varsity players if they lost, if they lost the
game the week the week prior, uh they had the scrimmage against the freshmen,
and they were mad. They didn't want to practice. They were mad
because they had to practice against us, so they tried to rutilize us.
But I think the fact that freshmen wasn't eligible making the transition, living in
the dorm, making the transition was made somewhat easier by first the collection of
fresh and that were there that were in my class, that were that came
from the South, we all kind of uh endeared ourselves to the term homeboy,
and homeboy took on a real meaning because that meant that all of the
black athletes of Michigan State that were from the South, we referred to each
other as homeboy, and that endeared us to one another, and it had
the context of we we you got, we had each other's back. And
so my experience as a as a freshman going to classes ironic because missus Pauline
Adams, who was my American thought and language teacher, became my mentor,
became a mentor of mine and for life, she kind of took me under
her wing. Uh. And it's ironic that when I was in the South,
I was I couldn't talk to a white woman, be near a white
woman. And this lady, her husband was doctor Waller Adams, who was
once the interim president or maybe twice the interim president of Michigan State. And
she taught in the English department, and she put her she put her wings
around me and carried me through my freshman year and helped me all the way
through. And we developed a lifelong friendship. And she still I could see
her every time I go to these slants. When I called her periodically,
She's one hundred and one years old now, but she is. She was
the perfect angel for me. And as I said before, it was ironic
that I was I had to avoid white people and white women in the South.
But the angel that took care of me and made helped the transition,
helped me transition to the Michigan State and at college life, uh was the
white lady of missis Pauline Adams. This is this is I got so I
mean, I got so many one gratefulness is kind of coming over me.
Of I wouldn't be obviously where I'm at to day, any of us,
none of us will be. And it just validates the selection of like,
hey, this is this is why I love our school so much, is
that it provided us opportunities. And I was born in Austin, Texas,
but all my family moved from Mississippi to Flint, Michigan for the automotive industry.
And so you know, I've heard my stories with my grandfather, I've
heard you know, racism, and you know, did you encounter anything that
was even close to what you obviously countered back at home in this transition or
was campus really that safe haven space of of welcomeness. And basically I really
want to know is when you guys went out there to win the national championship,
is like, how was campus and how was just the atmosphere of being
wearing that green of white truly proud because you were granted that this opportunity to
come play football for the Green and White. Well, it's interesting that you
allude to that because we were right in the middle and the heights of the
civil rights movement in nineteen sixty four when I came out of high school.
But Michigan State had always had a history of playing by having black athletes,
and great black athletes Don Coleman and Lee were Bolden and Ellis Duckett and Willie
Thrower, who was the first black quarterback at Michigan's stay in fifty four and
fifty five, even though he didn't start, he was the first black quarterback
at Michigan State from New Kensington, Pennsylvania. So when I made the decision
to go, initially I was wanting to go to the University of Minneso,
Minnesota if I was going to a Division one school, because Sandy Stevens was
from played at Minnesota and played in the Rose Bowl and led him to a
national championship, and I thought I knew that he played, so I figured
if I could go to Minnesota, I would also get a chance to play.
But I went to Michigan State and the campus was the campus was very
receptive, particularly to to the black athletes because it was it wasn't that many,
wasn't that many black students. They increased that my sophomore and junior year
when they started all of the programs in Detroit. But there were no incidents
that we encountered that were anything similar to what we had experienced in the South
and doing the gym pro period. So that made football kept us in the
cocoon and UH, and then the campus itself was accustomed to being in classrooms
with black students, and so the relative acceptance that we received. There were
no incidents. Even with the players UH. Most of them were from Michigan,
UH and from Boston. They were from all over the northeast part of
the country except for the group of us that came on the underground railroad from
the South, and we didn't we didn't encounter We bonded together and I think
it took off in nineteen sixty five, and we we won the national championship
in nineteen sixty five, which was a great experience. The campus game alive,
and we were we were the first team in ten years to get an
invite to the Rose Bowl. We went to the Rose Bowl after the sixty
five season. We were ten and zero and number one in the nation and
everything was good. Uh. We went to Disneyland and we got out of
the snow, and but we did everything. We did everything but win the
game. But back during that time, they voted for the national championship.
The bowl game was like a bonus. They had already voted US national champions
before we went to the bowl game. And we lost the Rose Bowl to
u c. L A fourteen to twelve. Uh, but we were already
h annoying a national champions because of the season we had had prior to the
bowl games. A little bit different now. So yeah, so you guys,
do you feel you guys lost that Rose Bowl because you guys are already
national champion here just enjoying your trip. Yeah, we were. We were.
We were rather than rather than splashing on the peer perfume, we were
drinking it, you know, we were we were all we were all full
of ourselves, and they were blowing us up and jolly green giants from the
Midwest. And we were a big football team, Bubba and George Webster and
Pat Gallanol and Goober. We were a big team. And we had played
UCLA open with them in the first game of the season at home and he's
Lansing that year and beat him soundly. And so they were beating us.
Liarry Prime rib who could eat the most prime It's to Disneyland and taking pictures
with the with the Disney Parade queen, and we were just eating it up.
We were all up on sunset whiskey of Go Go and just like my
kind of party valley right there. Duffy tried to rein us in. He's
caught wind of the practices and near the end of the the first week of
this week leading up to the game, and he took us up to a
monastery up in in uh up in north of Pasadena, and we had to
stay in the monastery and the only way we could they took all the courtesy
cars away from and he tried to get us back on and even kill but
were sluggish and we didn't play well in the game. We didn't play anywhere
near our potential. We lost. We lost the game fourteen to twelve.
But it was a fun year and it led It gave impetus to the next
year, the nineteen sixty sixth season, which in the Big Ten at that
time they had a no repeat rule. You couldn't you couldn't go to the
Rose Bowl two years in a row back to back. So when we won
the championship, won the national championship in nineteen sixty six, we couldn't play
in a bowl game because we had been the previous year. So they sent
the second place team, which was produced to the Rose Bowl, and so
we were actually playing. When we started the season, we knew we wasn't
going to be able to go to the Rose Bowl, so we were we
were playing for the national championship. And it came down to the final game
of the year, which now uh has become probably demost talked about game in
a long time in history. It was a ten ten tie against snow the
Dame. Yeah. So when you when you guys had when you guys played
you know the Purdue, you know you played you know that one black player.
Now did he come to you guys like, hey, was that was
that that homeboy mentality? You know? No, no, he was the
enemy. We didn't get We didn't he went on boy, no, homeboy,
homeboy working that day now because he was after me. Uh yeah,
he was trying to end my day early. But I was Fortunately I was
able to elude him. And it was a great game. Uh it was.
You know, if it hadn't ended in a tie, it probably he
would would be forgotten if the team had won. But the fact that there
was no the rules were different than they are today. Uh, but there
was no overtime period and the game ended and it was you was standing there.
It was kind of like, well, what let's play some more what
happened? But that's when Duffy made the statement of ties like kissing your sister.
You talk a lot about like Duffy and being an integral part of,
you know, the transition from a lot of the players that came from the
South to Michigan State. You know, there was a piece with the NFL
that talked about Duffy, daughtery and then his trust that he gained amongst the
coaches in the South. Yes, Duffy when when Duffy and Bud Wilkinson back
in the day were the two nationally known coaching is in the in the country.
Highly respect the coaches in the country, and they had what they called
the Kodak Coach of the Year Clinic that they put on all around the country
at the end of the football season. And he took the he took the
Kodak Coaching Clinic to Texas to Houston, and there were no black no black
coaches in it. Uh. The black coaches wasn't allowed to come into the
clinic. And so Duffy did the one clinic with the with the white coaches,
and then he put the next week he put on another clinic in Houston
for all of the black coaches. UH so they could receive some instruction in
the clinic and the information that the white coaches was receiving, and that that
started. That started the migration of black players out of Texas and North and
South Carolina. UH in Virginia. That started that the coaches that were allowed
to come to the clinic and Duffy welcomed them with open arms, and then
the top players that they had, UH they were they were informing Michigan State
about them in Michigan State was able to recruit the players based on their association,
their relationship with Duffy because of the Kodak Coach of the Year clinic.
Man, I mean you could you imagine, like, I mean one are
you talking about? Like even the Coaches Association, Like technically AFCA black coaches
ain't allowed to go to the AFCA conventions right like and one of our leaders,
our coaches, is not afraid to go against the resistance and be the
well Duffie's background was. Duffy's background was and such that he grew up in
Bonnsboro, Pennsylvania. His father worked in the coal mine. Then he went
to Syracuse and he he was he grew up around black kids. And he
went to college at Syracuse and they had black players. So and he came
to Michigan State and Bigiemnt with Big Eiemont and they before they became Michigan State,
they were first they was the Agriculture College, but they started recruiting black
players to their and their quest to become a member of the Big Ten.
So playing black players and being around black players was wasn't wasn't that unique for
Michigan State. And they gained their status into Big Ten because of the integrated
teams that they had in the national championships they won in fifty four and fifty
five that included black players, and some of the stars on the team were
black players. So it kind of the difference with us during the sixty five
sixty six season wasn't so it wasn't so much that we were fully integrated team
and it had cohesiveness and camaraderie and played well together. But the outlier was
the fact that for the first time it were led by a black quarterback and
that position was off limits to blacks. I was the only I was the
only black quarterback in the country starting at a Division I school in nineteen sixty
six. Wow, and the first to win a national championship. Obviously,
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean you talk about your your mark
on the game itself into our culture as African American men, ourselves. We
look at people talk a lot about your influence over Tony Dungee, who ended
up hiring guys like Mike Tomlin in the NFL level. Tony Dungee's a kid
from Jackson, Michigan, and watched you when he was young. But I
also think about internal spartans like Charlie Baggett that went to your high school and
guys like Tyrone Williamham who played on that same team who went on to play
a coach A long time as black African American coaches at the collegiate level in
the NFL. Have you had time to reflect now that you have ended your
career coaching after three four five decades in the NFL A long time, A
long time in the NFL, and look at the impact that you actually have
had on so many that came after you. Well, I did reflect a
little bit when the NFL three sixty came to do the piece on me,
and there were the fact that there were two black quarterbacks starting in the Super
Bowl, and I thought back to the time when when I was drafted by
the Los Angeles Rams, and I was told the very first day that they
called me that I was going to be switched to defensive back, not allowed
to play quarterback. And then, as I reflected on it, the University
of Alabama and all the SEC schools of playing black quarterbacks. And when I
was growing up it was illegal to give a black a scholarship. I think
Gerald Eviis was the first one that broke that in the Southeastern Conference. I
think it was the Southwest Conference then. But I feel some sense of gratitude
and some sense of relief that blacks it was. What it was was a
denial of opportunity to say that blacks couldn't play the position because of the lack
of intelligence and the lack of smart And now it's unusual as I was the
only one playing. Now it's reversed, it's almost unusual. It's a CEO
team that doesn't have a black quarterback. I'm really pleased that we've come along
ways in terms of black quarterbacks and Doug Williams and the Super Bowl and all
of the guys that Michael Vicks and Donovan McNabb and Randall Cunningham and all of
the guys that were given opportunities to play. Hopefully I had a little my
playing that had a little bit of impact on that. Yeah, so coach,
you gotta, you gotta, you gotta say this because I heard,
you know, we're talking about your coaching, and you know in that video
there, you know, it was saying like you know, it's a shame,
and so you know, you never got to you know, the opportunity
for a head coach. But you know, I don't know if I heard
this somewhere, and can you can confirm or you can deny this this story
here I heard that at you were slated to be the head coach at Michigan
State, and everything was pretty much wrapped up, and then last minute there
was a switcher root and then John l was hired. Well, there there
is there is some truth to that I was. I guess I was involved
in the in the head coaching search at Michigan State on a couple of different
occasions. UH. In that particular time, I was told that it was
I was in the final three, and so I was coaching in Kansas City
Chiefs when I went to do the interview at Michigan State. We met in
the hotel in the Detroit Airport and Clarence Underwood was on the panel UH of
the selection committee, and I I was told at the end of the process
is that they would get back to me, and UH had affirmed that in
all likelihood I was going to be the candidate. And then I was looking
at the bowl game on TV the week before the week before they were supposed
to make the selection, and all the Louisville players were on their cell phones
and uh they were calling and calling each other or calling uh their their friends
or whatever. And it broke that, uh John L. Smith was who
was the head coach at Louisville, was going to be named the new head
coach at Michigan State. And so that's how I found out that I wasn't.
I wasn't the finalist. I wouldn't wouldn't have got it was going to
get the job. Wow. I mean, as far as we've come with
the quarterback position, you know, think about that, we still have a
long way to go in regards to head coaching opportunities. That's what she's called.
And you said, the lack of opportunity is what you reflect on for
players. Coach, What do you think is going to take for more coaches
to get the opportunity to be head coaches, Black head coaches I'm talked about
to be able to get those jobs the NFL and even college football. Well,
I've I've thought about it a lot, but I think it's going to
take some kind of catechismic explosion for to happen or for that to take place.
I think until the owners and the athletic directors and the college as the
college administrators understand that diversity is good for business, and hiring black coaches is
good for business, is a good business deal right now. They the way
that the hiring people and the hiring practices are, they don't feel any any
any consequences, any any any negative consequences for their actions. And as long
as they don't feel the negative consequences, and I'm talking basically in pro football
in their pocketbooks, uh, in the seats in the stadium, I think
we'll we're going to struggle for a while in terms of getting blacks named the
head coaching positions. When I was coming along, uh and I was slated
supposedly to be the first black head coach in the NFL prior to Art Shell.
The the denial of the opportunity was because well, well he doesn't have
head coaching experience was used against me. And the other one was, well
they hadn't been a coordinator, so you accomplished. If you had to go
be a head coach, you had to go back the college or and that
wasn't there wasn't any opportunities there. And then to become a coordinator. That
wasn't happening in the NFL, so that was held against against all of us
that were in that era. And but now there are no qualifications to be
a head coach. You can be on TV on ESPN and be named a
head coach the next week. And the owner said that you don't need experience.
You don't need any experience to be a head coach. So the goalpost
keeps changing and the landscapes keeps moving. So now they just they just pick
a guy that they said, Uh, some guys have been in the league
six or seven years and never been a coordinator, never coached the position,
never taught a guy to put his hand in the dirt, but he can
become a head coach. Uh, there's a lot of nepotism going on,
and until until there's some some consequences for the actions that are taking place,
Uh, we're gonna we're gonna have trouble continuing to feel the position of head
coach's position. And I think the only way is going to happen is that
the players themselves, because of seventy percent of black and minority in the NFL,
and to the players themselves take a stand. I don't think anything will
change MHM. Coach you mentioned, uh, you know obviously the changing landscape
of requirements to be a head coach. I guess you've worked for some head
coaches, but you know, I mean you're successful coach and leading men and
training them to be great pros. What what does it take to be a
great coach? I guess for you, I mean you personally, I feel
like one you're telling that story is like, man, you could have been
our head coach, paying for you, Like you know, it would have
It would have saved us those three years of misery probably would have been We've
been well off and and and you know, ten ten wins season in national
championships hopefully. But you know, tell us what does it truly take to
be a successful head coach? You know from your perspective, Well, first
of all, you know, uh now knowledge knowledge of the game. Uh.
There are two different, two different dynamics in college and pro football,
but both of them still require a knowledge of the game of football, and
and the leadership ability and the leaders and the ability to lead men. Uh.
And without those two things, uh, basically you see what is happening
now in the NFL. There's ten coaching jobs every year because at the year
and a half for two years sometimes let's in the year they make they're making
changes in the head coach. But the ability to communicate, to teach and
to show a guy that you can improve him and make him better. Every
guy in pro football or in college wants to be be coached to either get
to the next level or in college get to the NFL or in pro football
to get to the next big kind of max contract. So once you can,
once you are in the position of coaching a young man and you can
improve his ability, his skills, and he has trust in you, and
he buys into what you're teaching, and you're leading him in the property direction,
and you you also have an investment in him in his personal life,
not just as a football player. I think all of those things are components
of making of a good head coach and they all come back down to leadership
hip and mentorship, uh in the process. Yeah, So you know to
that point there about you know that advice there and you know we got at
Michigan State. We have an African American head coach, the highest paid you
know, African American head coach in college football, Coach Tucker he came off
he first, he had a great season. Last year a disappointing season.
So what advice would you give to coach Tucker going into this year? Well,
I think I think Coach Tucker is is is headed in the right direction.
Uh. He understands the dynamics of what it takes to be successful as
a as a as a head coach. Uh. He's a great leader and
communicator. Uh, he's invested in the players. I would I would tell
him to just stick to his training u uh, don't waiver. Uh.
He knows what he's trying to accomplish and how in the road that he has
to travel to get there, because he's been in successful programs at LSU and
Alabama and Georgia University of Georgia teams that are perennially up there, and he
knows how to build that culture. And as long as his culture sustains itself
and he and he he gets the Jimmy and the Joees to go with the
Exes and the O's, I think he's gonna I think he'll do fine.
Perfect Jimmy and Jimmy's and the Jones matters. Coach, I'm gonna ask you
before we let you go man, like you know, in today's college football
with the transfer portal and name image, likeness, players getting paid. Like,
what advice can you give guys nowadays that you didn't have to deal with
when you were in your career, but seeing it from your perspective with your
wiz them, how would you handle today's athlete? Well, that that one
is that one is difficult. Uh, the name image and likeness and the
transfer potal. Uh. You have to continue recruiting the guys every day,
UH, and your staff has to be on top of them every day.
And then you have to be vigilant about watching what is in the in the
transfer potal and if they fit your criteria in your environment that you're trying to
create to bring them into your program. Mostly, I think I think I
think it goes back to education and if you and kids that the young men
that they can't lose sight of the fact that they initially signed to go to
college to play football, but they signed on to get an education and give
them a chance of a better life. And so many kids are jumping in
the transfer pot that get lost, that don't end up uh getting a degree,
end up after their time as eligibility is up. They don't. They
don't get to the next level that they thought they were gonna get to.
I would I would maintain I would take the academic aspect of it, UH
and and what is available to the players at the end at the Michigan State
University, the facilities, the academic counseling, UH, all of the achievements
that the prep that the prior players have had. I would lean heavily on
the education aspect of it, and hopefully that would deter some of the kids
from jumping in the portal and jumping UH to other schools thinking that they're going
to be a starter and not looking at the academic side of it. That's
right, tough landscape to deal with nowadays. For sure, it is for
sure because I think UH we had to scrape from if we got five dollars
a week. We had to we had to figure out how we were we
were gonna get toothpaste and some smell good uh for the weekend. And I
also neve enough to have be able to eat on Sunday when the dining hall
closes at two o'clock. It's a lot, it's a lot different. It's
a lot different now most every kid gets about nine hundred and fifty dollars guaranteed
each month. Uh, it's a it's a little bit different than I don't
envy coach Tucker or any of the any of the college football coaches that are
dealing with it. But I think, uh, I think Tucker is is
in tune with it, the environment that he's creating. Uh. I think
Will uh be steadfast in Michigan State. Will Will get to where he wants
to get. He wants to play for the national championship. Absolutely, he
sure does. Yeah, I mean, yeah, I appreciate you, uh,
you know, joining us. And I got to say, you know,
I had the pleasure of being coached by you at the Jets. When
you went to San Francisco, you brought me along there with you. I
remember this, you know, when you were let go from San Francisco,
we had a conversation and the last thing you said, be careful, I'm
not there to protect you. I was back of my pigs and going to
Buffalo. I really appreciate all that you know, all the knowledge and everything
that you instilled upon me, you know, as a player, taught me
how to be a professional, taught me how to you know, take care
of myself at that next level. And I remember one thing that you said.
You know, you said, this is the easiest money and the fastest
money that a black, a black kid can make legally in America playing the
game of football, playing sports overall. And you know, those are some
of the knowledge that you instilled upon me at that time. It may not
have looked like I was listening, but I was listening. Well, yeah,
well you had a great you had a great journey, and uh,
I appreciate being on the show as all, got a great podcast going.
And uh i'd like to uh say thank you and say hello to all the
Spartan fans of Sparkan Nation out there and go green, go a little,
go white, Coach, I appreciate it. Get back to the golf course.
Thank you, get him straight, Thank you, bro, allright,
appreciated. Coach. Let me hold something. Then you got that teller bomb
man? Let me yeah, I know he got it. I know he
got it. An interview man, I mean just a wealth of knowledge,
man, Jimmy Ray, I ain't you know every time when I talk to
George George Blahave, you know, broadcast partner, I mean he talks in
depth. I mean he talks about Jimmy Ray like he can see him when
he talks about me. I can see the guy on the field through his
eyes and his energy when he talks about him. Here's some clips from him
right here. Man, you're talking about little bootleg. Actually that's what you
do on the goal line. You know you still can't stop that on the
goal line, I'm telling you. But the look, that's what happens when
you have a run game and you're running the eye was it was not the
I formation. Look at him? Look at him? Oh yeah, smooth
man. I clicked his ankles. You know, it's crazy, like I
I'm trying to think. I think it was Tom who was on that NFL
special. Someone gave me the USB drive of the ten ten tipe, the
film like the footage, like the entire game, and when I left the
Spartan fun, I have misplaced the USB like drive where I'm like that was
like that was goal like and I so go when then we have these conversations.
Now it's weird when we talk about the Shrian East East versus West strin
game, where initially this thing was segregated and then now you see like one
of our very own Ben Van and played in that game, right, so
that was a different game. That was that was actually a high school game
he played. That's what I'm saying. This was the high school. But
like, no, it's still the college college. But like you think about
it, where now it's it's it is, uh, it's now you play
ever play you see playing that in that game. But man, that was
that gave me so much, not say validation, but it was giving me
more dignity and being proud to be on the love a black alone of Michigan
State University because just the history, man, like the rich history of you
don't know behind that, that struggle in that journey, but that that that's
a good picture right there too. Man, where thankfully for Biggie Duffy of
just allowing this platform for us to truly go through it. And it's almost
like Jimmy knew that he didn't know. He didn't claim to know, but
he knew what he was doing but didn't know. But opening the doors for
other black boys watching him coming up. Man, it's crazy. How about
how about the fact he could have been the head coach at Michigan State.
You saw that's huge. That's breaking news right there. Oh man, I
just like Man, I probably would have been I would have had a better
probably pro career, man because he would have followed Bobby Williams. He would
have followed Bobby Williams. Yep, oh wow, it would have been we
would have had that experience. We would have had the NFL experience. That
would have gave us truly vital pieces to get us ready for that next level.
Oh Jesus. But instead we had chick You guys, you know straight.
I can't look. I know, Bash bashed that regime, but because
clearly they gave me a scholarship, gave me opportunity, I can't fault that.
But it could have been probably a different trajectory if you had our boy,
Jimmy Ray. We said, homeboy would have had our backs. Yeah,
home boys. I like that. Yeah, we found out where the
origin of the word comes from. Man. That that was. That was
a great interview, guys. Uh ju any final thoughts, No, Man,
how can you follow that up? You can't, You really can't to
be on there. Yeah, just thankful that we had a chance to get
an interview with the great indeligible that what was the name, indelible, indelible,
indelible, Jimmy, I love it. I love it man. That
was awesome. Guys. You know so that'll be a a boat on this
show. So for Jay you Culchre, Otis Wiley, I'm Jason Straehorn.
This is Sparta. Have a good night, God bless go greet while this
is Sparta MSU as a combine presentation of Playfly Sports properties in Michigan State Sports
Properties. The show is produced by Pete Manez with additional support from Tony Costella
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