WEBVTT 1 00:00:01.080 --> 00:00:04.120 Welcome to Hacking Your Leadership. I'm Chris and I'm Lorenzo. And Lorenzo. 2 00:00:04.240 --> 00:00:07.440 On this episode, I want to talk about an interaction I had with a 3 00:00:07.480 --> 00:00:11.439 person at one of the companies I consult for. They were kind of expressing 4 00:00:11.439 --> 00:00:16.920 to me a frustration with one of their employees who was a great employee. 5 00:00:17.359 --> 00:00:22.120 They do well. They they they get their job done, and they are 6 00:00:22.239 --> 00:00:30.399 constantly applying for promotions that when when those jobs open up, even for things 7 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.280 that they are one percent not ready for, like you know, we're trying 8 00:00:34.320 --> 00:00:39.719 to skip multiple levels in their organization, kind of just really kind of jumped 9 00:00:39.719 --> 00:00:44.479 the ladder quickly. And the first time that this happened, the person expressed 10 00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:47.679 to me that it was kind of cool to see that that level of ambition. 11 00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:50.399 You know, they they're not used to seeing that from a lot of 12 00:00:50.439 --> 00:00:52.719 people. Some people have to kind of be coaxed out of their shell to 13 00:00:52.759 --> 00:00:56.320 do this, and they kind of liked this, but it's becoming frustrating because 14 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.640 this person feels like they're having a lot of conversations with their employee around making 15 00:01:00.679 --> 00:01:04.760 sure that they don't actively start disengaging in their job and they don't lose that 16 00:01:04.840 --> 00:01:10.280 ambition and that drive to succeed while also constantly being told no, no, 17 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.680 no, you can't get this job, you can't get this promotion. And 18 00:01:14.319 --> 00:01:15.400 they reached out to me to, you know, wonder like what what do 19 00:01:15.439 --> 00:01:21.239 you do? How do I prevent this from happening without losing the engagement I'm 20 00:01:21.239 --> 00:01:23.239 getting from this employee who does really great work. It's a great conversation. 21 00:01:23.280 --> 00:01:27.359 I think. I think this happens to a lot of people, maybe even 22 00:01:27.480 --> 00:01:32.400 especially the earlier you are in your career and the less experience you have. 23 00:01:32.560 --> 00:01:34.519 Yeah, now I think it's you know, ambition is great. You want 24 00:01:34.599 --> 00:01:40.480 people that want for more. And I look at ambition it's like I take 25 00:01:40.519 --> 00:01:42.400 the kind of the positive spin on it. It's like you want to learn, 26 00:01:42.560 --> 00:01:46.239 you want to grow, you want to develop. I don't necessarily look 27 00:01:46.239 --> 00:01:49.760 at ambition. It's like I just want the next title. Sure, sometimes 28 00:01:49.760 --> 00:01:52.760 people fall into that trap of like they're just trying to get the next job, 29 00:01:52.799 --> 00:01:53.439 to get the next job, to get the next job. They're only 30 00:01:53.439 --> 00:01:57.560 looking at something like compensation, and again, like let's be keep it one 31 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.239 hundred, like compensation matters, money matters. People want to make more money, 32 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:04.400 Like I get all of that. But when I when I hear ambition, 33 00:02:04.680 --> 00:02:08.159 I think somebody is really motivated and driven to do more. And so, 34 00:02:08.520 --> 00:02:12.800 you know, I think it's it's it's it's really important. You you 35 00:02:12.919 --> 00:02:15.319 know, you're gonna have when you have a balanced team, you're gonna have 36 00:02:15.319 --> 00:02:17.360 some people that are just like happy with what they do. They're really kind 37 00:02:17.360 --> 00:02:21.520 of like, you know, they feel good about the role that they have. 38 00:02:22.319 --> 00:02:24.080 It works well for them, it works well for their lifestyle, it 39 00:02:24.120 --> 00:02:28.800 works well for their passions, and you know, they're open to learn. 40 00:02:28.840 --> 00:02:30.199 Maybe they don't want to go into the next job or a different job, 41 00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:32.400 but that's going to happen, and you're gonna have those people on your team, 42 00:02:32.439 --> 00:02:35.639 and you need that on a team. You need some stability in some 43 00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:38.960 of those types of spaces. But when it comes to people having ambition, 44 00:02:39.639 --> 00:02:45.520 I like to see it. But to your point, it requires a different 45 00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:50.159 level of conversation. It requires more time and attention to give to them, 46 00:02:50.479 --> 00:02:53.639 to provide perspective, to ask questions, to give analogies, to help them 47 00:02:53.680 --> 00:02:59.919 to understand and talk about things that are going to help them to have them 48 00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:02.719 ambition and take you know, take in what they are learning and what they're 49 00:03:04.159 --> 00:03:08.639 kind of getting on their path of growth and not just thinking about the next 50 00:03:08.719 --> 00:03:13.159 thing. Because you get hyper focus on that next thing, it can feel 51 00:03:13.240 --> 00:03:15.520 like all you're getting is turned downs. All you're getting his nose instead of 52 00:03:15.599 --> 00:03:21.599 taking the time and appreciating all that you're learning on the way. And then 53 00:03:21.639 --> 00:03:23.599 all of a sudden, it's like you start to get yes is a lot 54 00:03:23.599 --> 00:03:24.840 more often, and it starts to feel a lot better, and you start 55 00:03:24.840 --> 00:03:30.800 to understand that the journey in this space, and like Simon Seneks has an 56 00:03:30.840 --> 00:03:35.199 infinite game, like this idea that you're constantly looking to improve and to grow 57 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.439 and to develop, and that the jobs that you get these are just mile 58 00:03:38.599 --> 00:03:44.319 markers on your way through your life. Yes you want the next job, 59 00:03:44.439 --> 00:03:46.520 Yes you want that responsibility, Yes you want kind of the things that come 60 00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:51.199 with that, but these are going to happen if you stay at that higher 61 00:03:51.280 --> 00:03:53.400 level and you really think about what you're learning. Right. I like that 62 00:03:53.439 --> 00:03:57.960 you use the example that the word you use was mile marker just now, 63 00:03:58.000 --> 00:04:01.639 and I love that because but I'm thinking, when when I see employees react 64 00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.639 this way or act this way, I think that it is possible that they're 65 00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:09.919 just looking for you know, more compensation or more money, or or you 66 00:04:09.960 --> 00:04:13.360 know another title, or you know. They're looking for those things. But 67 00:04:14.039 --> 00:04:18.920 what's rooted in often is they're looking for validation. They're they're looking for some 68 00:04:19.079 --> 00:04:24.199 type of way of being able to say I'm doing a good job. And 69 00:04:24.319 --> 00:04:27.279 you think about mile markers, you know, if I'm if you're running a 70 00:04:27.279 --> 00:04:30.959 marathon and someone and someone just took away all the mile markers, so it 71 00:04:30.000 --> 00:04:32.680 was just I got to run twenty six point two miles and I don't even 72 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.480 know when I've hit mile one two three four. Oh my gosh. How 73 00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:41.639 much harder would that be psychologically to get to that marathon than if there were 74 00:04:41.759 --> 00:04:45.480 mile markers along the way. I don't know anybody who who would embark on 75 00:04:45.519 --> 00:04:47.480 that, Like why why put yourself even through that without even knowing? Like 76 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:51.000 you could you could start to tell yourself I'm further along than I am from 77 00:04:51.040 --> 00:04:55.079 a standpoint of like trying to psych yourself up, and then all of a 78 00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:58.600 sudden you get you find out how far back you are and it becomes really 79 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:03.040 discouraging or you get discouraged thinking I'm so far away, why even try? 80 00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:09.160 And you don't realize how far along you are. But neither of those scenarios 81 00:05:09.240 --> 00:05:13.360 is good. But what is very common is for you to have an inaccurate 82 00:05:14.560 --> 00:05:18.240 vision of where you actually are without those mile workers along the way. And 83 00:05:18.279 --> 00:05:24.000 this is exactly the same thing. If you're you have employees who are looking 84 00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:28.199 for these things. They want validation, and if they're not getting it from 85 00:05:28.240 --> 00:05:30.839 you as a leader on the work that they're doing every day, or by 86 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:38.160 being rewarded with more responsibility or you know, bigger asks from you to kind 87 00:05:38.199 --> 00:05:41.439 of stretch themselves or think outside the box, they're going to look for in 88 00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:44.160 other ways, such as I want to get promoted, I want more money, 89 00:05:44.199 --> 00:05:47.639 I want more responsibility officially, and those are important too, but the 90 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.920 appetite or the hunger for them, and how that can be tempered with kind 91 00:05:53.959 --> 00:06:00.480 of patience and a realization that sometimes things move slowly, those are much easier 92 00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:03.000 pills to swallow. If you're in a situation where your leader is giving you 93 00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:06.240 that validation and that feedback, you know, on a on a much more 94 00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:10.879 frequent basis, that doesn't necessarily have to come with, you know, more 95 00:06:10.920 --> 00:06:15.120 responsibility or a different title or more money. Again, if you want to 96 00:06:15.160 --> 00:06:17.959 stretch and you want to grow, then then you should be able to do 97 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:23.680 that, and your leadership should be able to validate that with more of that 98 00:06:23.800 --> 00:06:28.959 for you. But if you're not doing that, then chances are the leadership 99 00:06:29.000 --> 00:06:32.000 that you report to is not doing doing a great job. The other aspect 100 00:06:32.000 --> 00:06:33.800 I want to, you know, kind of talk about when it comes to 101 00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:38.600 this is if you as a leader are experiencing this. So if you want 102 00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:42.439 to grow and develop and you're applying for things, or you feel like you're 103 00:06:42.480 --> 00:06:46.319 stagnating, how can you do a better job at balancing these two things so 104 00:06:46.360 --> 00:06:51.519 that you aren't viewed this way by your boss? Uh and instead, you 105 00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:54.920 know, because because if you're a leader, you have a bigger responsibility to 106 00:06:55.000 --> 00:06:59.680 this. It's not just an individual contributor who is you know, maybe need 107 00:06:59.720 --> 00:07:02.360 some coaching up on the right way to go about these things. If you've 108 00:07:02.399 --> 00:07:04.959 been in this business for a while and you are a leader of people, 109 00:07:05.439 --> 00:07:08.879 it doesn't mean that you don't need validation anymore. It doesn't mean that you're 110 00:07:08.920 --> 00:07:11.639 not trying to go for the next step in your career progression. But it 111 00:07:12.240 --> 00:07:15.879 does also mean that you could fall into the same trap of the employee that 112 00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:18.439 I'm talking about here, and your leaders might view this about you, and 113 00:07:18.519 --> 00:07:23.399 so you know, it's important that you take steps actively to make sure that 114 00:07:23.399 --> 00:07:26.480 this is not happening to you, that your leaders don't view this about you, 115 00:07:26.519 --> 00:07:29.240 but that you're still being able to get the validation you need. Yeah, 116 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:32.079 and something to take into account. And I have this conversation quite often 117 00:07:32.160 --> 00:07:35.079 to when you have people that are ambitious and looking to continue to grow, 118 00:07:35.240 --> 00:07:40.759 is like, as you move in your career, what ends up happening is 119 00:07:40.839 --> 00:07:45.000 those opportunities. The distance between opportunities becomes greater and greater and greater because there's 120 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:48.480 less and less jobs as you move up, have you have fewer jobs when 121 00:07:48.519 --> 00:07:53.519 you go from an individual contributor to then like a leader of people, then 122 00:07:53.519 --> 00:07:56.000 a leader of leaders, then a leader of leader of leaders. That like, 123 00:07:56.560 --> 00:08:00.639 as this kind of happens and you progress, there are less jobs for 124 00:08:00.720 --> 00:08:03.639 you to look at unless you want to go sideways, which can definitely happen 125 00:08:03.680 --> 00:08:05.480 and happens for a lot of people. But as you kind of move up, 126 00:08:05.680 --> 00:08:11.279 there's less of them. There's there's higher levels of competition because there's less 127 00:08:11.360 --> 00:08:16.000 jobs and there's a more highly skilled candidate pool for those types of things. 128 00:08:16.040 --> 00:08:20.800 So if all you're thinking about is just moving into the next job or the 129 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:24.360 next thing, and you're not taking the time to take in what you're learning 130 00:08:24.480 --> 00:08:26.720 and how it's helping you to develop and become more efficient and more effective, 131 00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:31.000 then you're you know, you're gonna be really disappointed, like you're going to 132 00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:35.799 get stuck in those spaces, and and there can be times when you know, 133 00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:39.279 it can feel like, man, I'm just not I'm not moving, 134 00:08:39.519 --> 00:08:43.799 or I'm really like I feel I'm capable and confident to be able to do 135 00:08:43.879 --> 00:08:48.679 the next level of role. But finding the joy in the role that you're 136 00:08:48.679 --> 00:08:54.600 in, if you truly the essence of who you are, you enjoy leading 137 00:08:54.639 --> 00:08:58.879 people, You enjoy the watching people develop, watching people grow, watch people 138 00:09:00.120 --> 00:09:03.360 opportunity. If that's really what you say that you enjoy, then you can 139 00:09:03.440 --> 00:09:07.159 find that joy in the roles that you have and take the time to work 140 00:09:07.200 --> 00:09:11.639 through them. I also think that you know, I quote Malcolm Gladwell, 141 00:09:11.799 --> 00:09:16.279 like the ten thousand hours, right, like that's that's such a thing. 142 00:09:16.759 --> 00:09:18.960 And again, in a full time job, it's about five years. Right. 143 00:09:20.000 --> 00:09:22.519 If you're gonna, if you're gonna truly you know, have mastery over 144 00:09:24.480 --> 00:09:26.360 a job or a role or what that looks like. It's five years in 145 00:09:26.399 --> 00:09:31.720 the same job. I'm not saying everybody has to have five years in the 146 00:09:31.840 --> 00:09:35.720 job to master it or at least become proficient enough to take on the next 147 00:09:35.799 --> 00:09:39.840 responsibility, but there is something about taking the time in a role to not 148 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.320 just have short term success, to not just have like success over the course 149 00:09:45.360 --> 00:09:48.000 of a year or two, but to have the opportunity to influence peers, 150 00:09:48.000 --> 00:09:52.559 to have the opportunity to solidify your leadership style, to have the opportunity to 151 00:09:52.600 --> 00:09:56.799 see pretty much and experience anything that could possibly happen in the role that you 152 00:09:56.919 --> 00:10:01.600 have, and to continue to build your network, gain perspective, and take 153 00:10:01.679 --> 00:10:05.759 in additional mentors and leaders and partners in your career development. If you start 154 00:10:05.799 --> 00:10:09.799 to look now at that five years, you start to see that, like 155 00:10:09.840 --> 00:10:13.360 there's a lot that you can do in that space where you are continually growing 156 00:10:13.399 --> 00:10:18.279 yourself, growing your brand, growing your influence, and these become imperative as 157 00:10:18.399 --> 00:10:20.879 then you take the next step to take the next step, So like, 158 00:10:22.240 --> 00:10:26.080 you know, this time that's needed is really really important if you're not just 159 00:10:26.120 --> 00:10:28.559 looking to get the next job, but you want to be successful in that 160 00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:31.879 job so that you can be successful in the next job. And so I 161 00:10:31.960 --> 00:10:35.000 do think that, you know, again, it's really important that you have 162 00:10:35.159 --> 00:10:39.559 ambition, but then you also have to have the patience and the perspective to 163 00:10:39.679 --> 00:10:46.039 understand what you are learning and the things like journaling and taking you know, 164 00:10:46.120 --> 00:10:50.200 in any type of additional courses or larger perspective. These are things that are 165 00:10:50.240 --> 00:10:56.240 really important to fill that kind of fill that cop of learning and growing developing 166 00:10:56.559 --> 00:11:01.080 if you're not seeing movement into a new title or new respect ononsibility right right, 167 00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:07.519 the idea of mastery is is something that can't be expedited. It truly 168 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:09.480 just takes time. And you're right, like most jobs, you don't have 169 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:15.519 to spend five years in a role in order to master it. But if 170 00:11:15.559 --> 00:11:18.279 you look at you know, just pick pick somebody who has been in the 171 00:11:18.320 --> 00:11:26.480 same industry and go look at their LinkedIn profile and watch at the time difference 172 00:11:26.519 --> 00:11:30.240 between different jobs, and you'll notice that it. You know, if they've 173 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:33.639 been in at the beginning of their career, the role they were in for 174 00:11:33.679 --> 00:11:35.840 their very first role, it probably lasted one to two years. The next 175 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:39.759 role they were in probably lasted two to three years. The next role they 176 00:11:39.759 --> 00:11:41.440 were in probably lasted four to five years. The next role they were in, 177 00:11:41.519 --> 00:11:45.159 Like, each time you move up, you need to spend more time 178 00:11:45.200 --> 00:11:50.480 in those roles in order to master them because the things that that role requires 179 00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:54.440 typically expands over the previous role. You know, I think back to, 180 00:11:54.919 --> 00:11:56.480 you know, one of the job that I had when I was going to 181 00:11:56.519 --> 00:12:01.320 college, and I didn't apply for any promotions because all I wanted was a 182 00:12:01.399 --> 00:12:05.200 job that worked well with my college schedule, and the number of times that 183 00:12:05.639 --> 00:12:09.240 I had been in the role for three or four years while going to college, 184 00:12:09.440 --> 00:12:13.159 where people who were either peers of mine or newer to the organization, 185 00:12:13.320 --> 00:12:18.639 or even leaders of the organization would would have a have a problem with something. 186 00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:22.039 They're trying to solve an issue, and they couldn't figure out why something 187 00:12:22.120 --> 00:12:26.320 was doing something other a system or a way to solve a problem. And 188 00:12:26.480 --> 00:12:28.320 I was able to very easily say, oh no, just do this and 189 00:12:28.360 --> 00:12:31.679 this and this and then and it worked. And they would look at me 190 00:12:31.759 --> 00:12:35.799 like, how did you know that? And the answer would almost always be 191 00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:39.080 I saw it once before. It's been like a year or two. I've 192 00:12:39.120 --> 00:12:43.639 never seen this issue before, beside this one time. But but I had 193 00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:46.759 to struggle to solve it myself when it happened to me one or two or 194 00:12:46.759 --> 00:12:50.399 three years ago. And when I figured it out, that information gets filed 195 00:12:50.399 --> 00:12:52.440 away and you don't know if you'll ever need it again, but I'll tell 196 00:12:52.480 --> 00:12:56.919 you when it. It feels really good. When you do need it and 197 00:12:56.960 --> 00:12:58.799 you're able to do something for somebody else where, they were like, oh 198 00:12:58.879 --> 00:13:03.440 my gosh, like this is how could you ever have known how to do 199 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:05.679 this. There's no way to expedite that. There's no way to put yourself 200 00:13:05.679 --> 00:13:11.480 in situations that where that happens to you and you're able to learn from it. 201 00:13:11.720 --> 00:13:13.639 You just have to do the job. And the more you do the 202 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:18.799 job, the more mundane it can feel. Because nine out of ten interactions 203 00:13:18.840 --> 00:13:24.039 with customers, nine out of ten problems with the things the systems that you 204 00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:26.320 have to use. Those are things that you will see and be able to 205 00:13:28.000 --> 00:13:31.639 become very good at within six months or a year or eighteen months, and 206 00:13:31.639 --> 00:13:33.080 then all of a sudden, it'll feel like this just feels like the same 207 00:13:33.080 --> 00:13:35.600 thing all the time. But then every once in a while something comes up 208 00:13:35.639 --> 00:13:39.759 that is different. And when that happens, it should not be viewed at 209 00:13:39.759 --> 00:13:43.080 as a frustration. It should be viewed at as a moment where you can 210 00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:46.120 think, Okay, if this is happening to me, there's no way I'm 211 00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:48.919 the only person this has ever happened to. So whatever comes of this interaction 212 00:13:50.039 --> 00:13:54.200 right now, there needs to be a learning taken from this, because that's 213 00:13:54.279 --> 00:13:58.480 what gets filed away towards that mastery of the role. Because if you've ever 214 00:13:58.480 --> 00:14:03.759 had somebody come to you to say how how do I solve this and you 215 00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:05.960 can very quickly say, oh, you just do this and this and this, 216 00:14:05.240 --> 00:14:09.159 and they look at you like you like you're a magician, that's because 217 00:14:09.200 --> 00:14:11.000 you did it at one point, and you file that information away, and 218 00:14:11.519 --> 00:14:16.840 that that's what mastery looks like. If you and and you may not have 219 00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:18.759 the answer, maybe it's somebody else that has it, and you don't have 220 00:14:18.799 --> 00:14:20.840 to have all the answers. It's not about having all the answers. It's 221 00:14:20.840 --> 00:14:26.000 about validating that you've been in a role long enough to where it becomes second 222 00:14:26.080 --> 00:14:30.360 nature, not to the point of doing it yourself, but to the point 223 00:14:30.360 --> 00:14:33.519 of explaining it to others. And if you can do that, well, 224 00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:37.960 then it means that you've mastered that role. That's when it is time to 225 00:14:37.000 --> 00:14:39.279 start really thinking about, Okay, how do I move on to the next 226 00:14:39.279 --> 00:14:43.679 step? If you if you've not gotten to that point yet, and and 227 00:14:43.720 --> 00:14:46.360 again it might not take five years, but it's not five months either, 228 00:14:48.080 --> 00:14:50.320 you know, So really think about what you're doing as far as when you're 229 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:54.480 when you're applying for you know, promotions, when you're applying for more things, 230 00:14:54.679 --> 00:14:58.679 the formality around that process, those are the those are the times that 231 00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:03.639 need to be kind of pushed out further. The informal growth and learning that 232 00:15:03.679 --> 00:15:07.799 occurs from just reaching out to your leader and saying I want more. I 233 00:15:07.799 --> 00:15:11.480 want to get promoted now, but I want more that Those are the things 234 00:15:11.480 --> 00:15:13.279 that you should continually strive to do. And if you're a leader and your 235 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:18.240 employees are reaching out to you to say I want more, it doesn't necessarily 236 00:15:18.240 --> 00:15:22.320 mean that they want a promotion. It means they want something. And if 237 00:15:22.360 --> 00:15:26.240 in the lack of you giving that to them from additional job responsibilities or thinking 238 00:15:26.279 --> 00:15:30.399 outside of the boxes us how they solve problems, if you're not giving that 239 00:15:30.440 --> 00:15:33.240 to them, they will manifest that in you know, asking for promotions, 240 00:15:33.279 --> 00:15:37.919 asking for more money because they need that validation somewhere absolutely, and with that 241 00:15:37.960 --> 00:15:39.639 it brings us to this episodes one minute Hack. But first a few words 242 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.879 from our sponsors. All right, for this episode one minute Hackers, I 243 00:15:43.879 --> 00:15:45.960 want you to do. I want you to get a list of your employees 244 00:15:46.039 --> 00:15:48.879 and I want you to talk to each one individually and ask them what their 245 00:15:48.960 --> 00:15:52.320 goal is from a career standpoint for the short term and for the long term. 246 00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:54.480 You need to know these like the back of your hand, so that 247 00:15:54.519 --> 00:15:58.840 the conversations you have with your people on a weekly or monthly basis are in 248 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.840 spirit of those goals. If you can articulate what needs to be done in 249 00:16:03.919 --> 00:16:07.360 order to get to those goals, then they'll be more likely to feel like 250 00:16:07.399 --> 00:16:10.960 they're on the right track and less likely to be kind of you know, 251 00:16:11.120 --> 00:16:12.240 uh, you know, throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, 252 00:16:12.240 --> 00:16:17.080 hoping to kind of get to that next role. Be very very clear with 253 00:16:17.200 --> 00:16:19.039 what is needed to get there. Talk about the things they're doing well and 254 00:16:19.039 --> 00:16:22.320 the things they need to work on, the things they need to get better 255 00:16:22.360 --> 00:16:25.039 at, and the things that they do find right now, but they will 256 00:16:25.039 --> 00:16:27.240 need to do much better in order to go for whatever that next promotion or 257 00:16:27.240 --> 00:16:30.799 that next milestone is every time you talk to them, see if that information 258 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.120 has changed at all, Because I mature responsibility as a leader to make sure 259 00:16:34.120 --> 00:16:37.799 that the moment that does change for a person, you can articulate to them, 260 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:40.679 Okay, here's what you gotta do. You want, you want the 261 00:16:40.720 --> 00:16:42.080 next step, You got it, Here's what you need to get there. 262 00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:47.039 If you can't do that, you'll have employees that kind of like are wondering 263 00:16:47.120 --> 00:16:48.480 what to do next, and they'll start, you know, probably going down 264 00:16:48.519 --> 00:16:52.320 the wrong path as opposed to you know, keeping it on the straight and 265 00:16:52.360 --> 00:16:53.440 narrow to get there as quickly as possible. Yeah, I think it's a 266 00:16:53.440 --> 00:16:56.440 great woe in a hack And I think that those you know, these conversations 267 00:16:56.480 --> 00:17:00.679 are so important to your point, like understanding where people or at what they're 268 00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.440 thinking, where they want to go, what they want to do, and 269 00:17:03.240 --> 00:17:04.759 then and then making sure that they're aware, Like that's part of your role 270 00:17:04.799 --> 00:17:07.680 as the leaders to help them get there. Like hey, like I'm in 271 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.039 on this too, Like this is why I'm asking if you want to be 272 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:15.400 a leader, if you want to take on a new role, like I 273 00:17:15.440 --> 00:17:18.279 absolutely want that for you, and you have my commitment to make sure that 274 00:17:18.319 --> 00:17:22.599 we have conversations, that we have expectations, that we that we make commitments 275 00:17:22.640 --> 00:17:26.519 together, that we follow up, that we hold each other accountable, like 276 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:29.559 that's the work that we have to do to help you get there. And 277 00:17:29.599 --> 00:17:33.079 then continuing to have those conversations are really, really, really important. I'll 278 00:17:33.119 --> 00:17:37.400 never forget a time when I had a lot of people apply for a role 279 00:17:37.440 --> 00:17:40.880 that was open and I had just gotten to the team, and I wanted 280 00:17:40.920 --> 00:17:42.279 to sit down and talk with every one of them, and so I had 281 00:17:42.279 --> 00:17:45.680 every single conversation we made a decision, but as a part of that conversation, 282 00:17:47.119 --> 00:17:48.480 I said, look, here's my commitment. Regardless of the outcome, 283 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.319 whatever decision we're going to make, we're going to have follow up time together. 284 00:17:52.519 --> 00:17:53.440 And I want to sit down and talk to you about next steps. 285 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:56.720 Whether if you get the job then it would be next steps and like the 286 00:17:56.799 --> 00:17:59.400 plan that we have and what you need to work on. If you don't, 287 00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:00.279 we'll have next ups on the plane that you're going to have because you 288 00:18:00.279 --> 00:18:03.839 want to have this role. And so we you know, we did that. 289 00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:07.119 We sat down. I sat down with all of them. I asked 290 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:08.279 for what's the work they want to do, What are their commitments, what 291 00:18:08.319 --> 00:18:11.119 are they going to focus on, what's the impact they want to have? 292 00:18:11.200 --> 00:18:15.359 Everybody had answers, and then lo and behold, that same job opened up 293 00:18:15.400 --> 00:18:18.640 again about four and a half months later, right and what ended up happening 294 00:18:18.680 --> 00:18:22.680 was about half of those people did not even apply for the job. That's 295 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:26.359 a good thing. That's a clarity that they didn't have before. Those same 296 00:18:26.359 --> 00:18:29.559 people they didn't apply have applied for other jobs and got them and have moved 297 00:18:29.599 --> 00:18:33.079 on their careers. But it was an eye opening moment of clarity for them 298 00:18:33.240 --> 00:18:37.480 to say, like, look, if you're serious about moving moving up, 299 00:18:37.480 --> 00:18:40.119 if you're serious bout getting these jobs, you also have to be serious about 300 00:18:40.160 --> 00:18:41.599 showing up every day and doing the work. And if you're going to make 301 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.039 commitments and say these are the things I'm going to go do to get ready, 302 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.359 you never know when these opportunities will open up and exist. And so, 303 00:18:48.640 --> 00:18:51.839 you know, for for many of them, it was like, oh, 304 00:18:51.880 --> 00:18:53.880 like okay, like you know, I don't have these examples to share. 305 00:18:53.920 --> 00:18:56.880 Now I didn't do the work that I said I was going to go 306 00:18:56.920 --> 00:18:59.640 do, so now I need to focus on that. So, like I 307 00:18:59.680 --> 00:19:03.000 think it's such an important thing to have those conversations, to be that clear 308 00:19:03.359 --> 00:19:07.079 and to be that involved in those that have a lot of ambition. Right, 309 00:19:07.119 --> 00:19:11.039 there's a there's an adage that we've heard. I forget who said it 310 00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:14.480 first, but I've heard it so many times in my career. It's clarity 311 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:18.000 is kindness, and if you can be clear with individuals. It's this, 312 00:19:18.680 --> 00:19:22.519 you know, another way of saying it is hard truths over comforting lies. 313 00:19:22.720 --> 00:19:26.599 It doesn't mean be a jerk. Hard truth don't mean, you know, 314 00:19:26.599 --> 00:19:30.880 slap somebody upside the head with the truth. It means it means make sure 315 00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:34.079 that you are being clear with a person on what is needed to get where 316 00:19:34.119 --> 00:19:37.960 they want to go. Because in your example about all the people that applied, 317 00:19:38.200 --> 00:19:41.200 it wasn't that they said they were going to do these things. They 318 00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:42.880 didn't do them. It's that they didn't ever say they were going to do 319 00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:45.680 anything. They just didn't know they had to do that. They thought that 320 00:19:45.720 --> 00:19:49.519 they were qualified for this role simply because it was open. They thought it 321 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:53.440 was a role where you could say, all right, give me this responsibility 322 00:19:53.519 --> 00:19:56.319 and then I will show you that I can do it. In a lot 323 00:19:56.359 --> 00:20:00.319 of organizations, promotions happened the exact opposite way. It's let me show you 324 00:20:00.359 --> 00:20:04.279 that I can do the role already for six months or a year informally, 325 00:20:04.599 --> 00:20:07.720 and now you know that when you put me in the role formally, you 326 00:20:07.839 --> 00:20:11.599 know that I'll hit the ground running because I've been doing a lot of that 327 00:20:11.680 --> 00:20:14.519 role already. You know, you know in a lot of organizations, that's 328 00:20:14.559 --> 00:20:17.559 how it works. It doesn't. It doesn't mean that you're you know, 329 00:20:17.640 --> 00:20:19.319 being asked to do work that you're not being paid to do. It means 330 00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:22.559 that you are saying, hey, I want this, and I want I 331 00:20:22.599 --> 00:20:25.759 want to show you that you are not taking a chance on me, that 332 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:27.839 you can be confident in this decision. And if that's what you want as 333 00:20:27.880 --> 00:20:32.960 a person, then there should be no problem in making that happen and doing 334 00:20:33.039 --> 00:20:37.000 that provided you have the leadership that validates that with clarity on what is needed 335 00:20:37.079 --> 00:20:41.039 and doesn't just kind of like allow you to think that you're further along than 336 00:20:41.039 --> 00:20:44.759 you are. That feedback has to be constant and that and that clarity is 337 00:20:44.839 --> 00:20:47.400 in fact kindness, absolutely, and with that it brings us to the end 338 00:20:47.440 --> 00:20:49.359 of this episode. This is hacking your leadership. I'm Lorenzo and I'm Chris, 339 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:51.599 and we'll talk to you all next time.