WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:46.960 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:48.439 --> 00:01:49.519 the the the the the the the the the the the the the don the 3 00:01:55.480 --> 00:02:45.000 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:45.719 --> 00:03:40.560 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 5 00:03:43.800 --> 00:04:44.600 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 6 00:04:46.519 --> 00:06:38.199 the do the budding to the bodd All right, what's up? Welcome to 7 00:06:39.560 --> 00:06:44.199 a discussion that I think is timely given a lot of the Internet drama and 8 00:06:44.279 --> 00:06:50.839 debates and discussions which you might think would be about theology, history, geopolitics, 9 00:06:51.920 --> 00:06:58.199 a relationship between church and state. But unfortunately it turns out no, 10 00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:02.199 most of the discussion really has nothing to do with that, and so I 11 00:07:02.199 --> 00:07:08.560 thought it would be very timely to delve into this subject and get into the 12 00:07:08.680 --> 00:07:13.279 history of the question of the role of church and state, how they relate 13 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:17.680 to one another. Is there a superior relationship between one to the other, 14 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.839 is one above the other? Does authority derive from one to the other, 15 00:07:23.800 --> 00:07:34.759 Or perhaps they are completely unrelated, independent spheres. Perhaps the state is some 16 00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:45.279 sort of Satanic entity in itself, as some believe. In what sense is 17 00:07:45.399 --> 00:07:54.439 Jesus quote unquote the king when people refer to Christ the king, and what 18 00:07:54.560 --> 00:08:00.319 about the historic confessions between Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox, how would they treated 19 00:08:00.360 --> 00:08:07.199 this question? Is there commonality between anybody Orthodox and Catholics? Is there commonality 20 00:08:07.240 --> 00:08:20.800 between Protestants and Orthodox at all? What about cesero Papism or Erascianism. So 21 00:08:20.839 --> 00:08:24.839 tonight we're gonna get into that. It's just too ripe of a topic not 22 00:08:24.920 --> 00:08:28.279 to discuss, given that everyone's talking about it. And the thing that surprised 23 00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:33.039 me I tried to get into Lauren Chen's space. She did a space where 24 00:08:33.039 --> 00:08:37.480 she was inviting people to come discuss the topic. I assumed this meant the 25 00:08:37.480 --> 00:08:43.840 theological, historical, biblical history view of this church fathers patristic view. No, 26 00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:50.879 had nothing to do with that. It was only about whether or not 27 00:08:50.960 --> 00:09:03.639 this phrase can be said and is it anti anti Shemitic? Right, So 28 00:09:03.840 --> 00:09:09.159 I didn't really have anything to do with the question of what is the correct 29 00:09:09.240 --> 00:09:13.200 teaching, but rather censorship and the phrase. And I don't fault anybody for 30 00:09:13.879 --> 00:09:18.440 pointing out the freedom of speech and the ability to say this and to fight 31 00:09:18.519 --> 00:09:26.080 against people that want this kind of speech shut down. But it's like you 32 00:09:26.080 --> 00:09:31.120 know so much of what happens in today's Twitter sphere, public sphere, debate 33 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:37.960 debates sphere, there's never any context. People don't know what the history of 34 00:09:39.000 --> 00:09:43.320 the topics are, they don't know the debates, they don't know the correct 35 00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:50.240 view theologically speaking, and so it just ends up being these sort of scream 36 00:09:50.320 --> 00:09:56.960 squabbles where people want to say names back and forth and don't have any theological 37 00:09:56.000 --> 00:10:03.519 grounding or historical background to understand what Protestants have believed, Have they evolved? 38 00:10:03.559 --> 00:10:07.759 What Roman Catholics I believe have they evolved? And what's the classic Orthodox teaching, 39 00:10:07.799 --> 00:10:13.080 which as we know, is ossified set in stone. It's so boring. 40 00:10:13.159 --> 00:10:18.440 They don't change, they don't evolve. It's like they're so so just 41 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:22.799 ossified. They don't even evolve or whatever are They just stay, which is 42 00:10:24.679 --> 00:10:33.879 precisely what we want. Coffee with Sister j which is the opposite of other 43 00:10:35.000 --> 00:10:41.679 coffees with people who want to evolve the doctrines. Now tonight we're gonna be 44 00:10:41.720 --> 00:10:48.759 talking about some topics that are gonna be really difficult for a lot of people. 45 00:10:50.000 --> 00:10:54.639 Protestants are gonna have a hard time tonight. Uh. People said, 46 00:10:54.679 --> 00:10:58.519 I haven't looked at your channel in a while. Now you look like Curtis 47 00:10:58.639 --> 00:11:03.039 Jarvin. That's funny because there might be a little overlap with Curtis Yarvin type 48 00:11:03.080 --> 00:11:09.320 of views tonight. As everybody always points out, it's going to be at 49 00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:16.799 a little difficult for Protestants and even perhaps for some Roman Catholics. However, 50 00:11:16.480 --> 00:11:22.039 I will say this from the outset, most traditional minded Roman Catholics and traditional 51 00:11:22.080 --> 00:11:31.320 minded Orthodox and a few scant groups amongst classical Protestants do have kind of common 52 00:11:31.320 --> 00:11:35.320 ground here. We do typically agree that there is a social teaching of the 53 00:11:35.399 --> 00:11:41.519 church and a teaching of the state. Does the church have any official teaching 54 00:11:41.879 --> 00:11:46.399 on the role of the state, its limits, its boundaries, its domains, 55 00:11:48.159 --> 00:11:54.000 its rights. Or perhaps we're supposed to be libertarian, Maybe we're supposed 56 00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.559 to be against the state. Maybe we're supposed to be anarcho pacifist hippie. 57 00:11:56.600 --> 00:12:03.600 Jesus followers being Jesus was like cool dude or whatever. Men. He always 58 00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:07.320 he always says, he'll take take a stone out of your own eye before 59 00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:11.399 you throw it at the other people or whatever, and like, you know, 60 00:12:11.600 --> 00:12:13.600 just love people and be cool, man. That's like what he said. 61 00:12:13.600 --> 00:12:18.240 He was like a homeless hippie or whatever, really homeless hippie. So 62 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:22.200 these are the people, of course, that have no idea that Jesus is 63 00:12:22.200 --> 00:12:26.159 the second person of the God, had no idea of all the Messianic prophecies 64 00:12:26.200 --> 00:12:33.039 all throughout the Old Testament about the conversion of nations and states. Yes you 65 00:12:33.120 --> 00:12:37.120 heard me right, nation states, nations and states kingdoms in the Messianic era. 66 00:12:37.279 --> 00:12:43.480 Why oh oh, you hadn't thought about that, had you? Even 67 00:12:43.519 --> 00:12:48.879 though it's central to everybody's apologetic who has any kind of Christianity to argue that 68 00:12:48.960 --> 00:12:52.159 Jesus fulfills all these Messianic prophecies and that the Church is the fulfillment of all 69 00:12:52.200 --> 00:12:58.960 the prophecies of the gentiles converting in the Psalms, in Genesis and Isaiah and 70 00:12:58.000 --> 00:13:05.639 Ezekiel and Amayah. And what about all those multitudes of passages which describe kings 71 00:13:05.639 --> 00:13:13.240 and queens coming and submitting to the Messiah. How do we know when to 72 00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:16.200 allegorize? How do we know when it's figurative? How do we know when 73 00:13:16.240 --> 00:13:20.519 it might be saying there really really will be kings and queens converting? What 74 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:26.559 about Daniel seven nine, Revelation five there's a lot of parallels in those passages. 75 00:13:26.559 --> 00:13:31.279 Well, it turns out the way that we interpret a lot of the 76 00:13:31.440 --> 00:13:35.600 historical contexts of these passages, whether we're partial preterists or not, will also 77 00:13:35.679 --> 00:13:41.039 play a role in how we understand the application of these passages and this doctrine 78 00:13:41.080 --> 00:13:46.320 to the history of the Church. Because, as you can probably figure out, 79 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:54.879 many evangelicals, many premillennialists, many dispensationalists, will take so many of 80 00:13:54.919 --> 00:13:58.360 the things that are actually applicable to here and now in the Church era, 81 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:05.279 the kingdom era, and postponent delay it throw it off into the end times 82 00:14:05.559 --> 00:14:11.799 in some judaizing heresy of a thousand year kingdom on Earth where there's a new 83 00:14:11.879 --> 00:14:13.879 temple. So we want to have to we're gonna we're gonna have to tie 84 00:14:13.879 --> 00:14:26.679 in some of that, and we're gonna talk about somebody's asking me about so 85 00:14:26.759 --> 00:14:33.559 I'm sorry, I can't tell if that's a trolling joke there and the guy 86 00:14:33.600 --> 00:14:39.879 that asked the question there super chat so hard. I'm sorry to tell you 87 00:14:39.960 --> 00:14:41.679 this the but I'm I'll have to deal with this. I can't find the 88 00:14:43.120 --> 00:14:50.440 tweet because I'm logged out of Twitter right now. On on the computer. 89 00:14:50.600 --> 00:14:52.600 But Michael says, for five dollars, did you hear about Putin opening the 90 00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:58.000 old vaults? So fourteen hundreds is not the oldest vaults. Okay, maybe 91 00:14:58.039 --> 00:15:05.240 in Russia. But the biblical figures in that cast cavalcade of images that a 92 00:15:05.279 --> 00:15:09.879 lot of brothers on Twitter are sharing, Okay, first of all, they're 93 00:15:09.879 --> 00:15:15.240 not all black. Some of them are old and old icons turned black. 94 00:15:15.279 --> 00:15:18.840 It doesn't mean that people were black. Jesus was not black. He's a 95 00:15:18.879 --> 00:15:24.399 Hebrew. And the other pictures, about half of them are Saint Moses the 96 00:15:24.399 --> 00:15:26.600 Black. Totally different, dude, and everybody knows this, so I'm not 97 00:15:26.600 --> 00:15:31.200 sure to be mean to you, Michael, but this is just total nonsense, 98 00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:37.240 total low iq idiocy, and people just need to have no historical back 99 00:15:37.279 --> 00:15:41.399 of grounding or foundation at all. And there's literally like tens of thousands, 100 00:15:41.399 --> 00:15:46.720 maybe millions of people sharing this stupid tweet, and these stupid tiktoks that literally 101 00:15:46.720 --> 00:15:52.279 think that Jesus is Moses the Black and that this is some sort of stupid 102 00:15:52.279 --> 00:15:54.360 cover up, just literal I mean, this is what now, you guys 103 00:15:54.440 --> 00:16:00.679 understand why it's so annoying when I go on TikTok to debate, and people 104 00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.039 want more of it because just because they find it entertaining. But I mean, 105 00:16:04.080 --> 00:16:10.519 it's really difficult to deal with super hard headed, totally arrogant, delusional 106 00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.759 people. And this is the kind of stuff that feeds into the Hebrew Israelite 107 00:16:14.759 --> 00:16:18.559 heresy. So you're absolutely right that the insanity of these Hebrew Israelite people. 108 00:16:19.080 --> 00:16:23.559 They use this kind of nonsense as if Moses the Black is Jesus. And 109 00:16:23.600 --> 00:16:30.080 what's funny is that the examples that they're putting up up there's literally Greek lettering 110 00:16:30.679 --> 00:16:33.759 on the icon that tells you who it is. But they don't even know 111 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:37.360 that the Greek lettering it says Moses the Black, it says Athenacious. Okay, 112 00:16:37.399 --> 00:16:48.440 it's not Jesus. So I hate to be a ball buster bearer of 113 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:56.879 bad news for all of the We was Kying's TikTok Bros. But shout out 114 00:16:56.919 --> 00:17:00.840 to Yakub. Michael says, for a dollar, I was just copy and 115 00:17:00.879 --> 00:17:03.599 pasting the tweet of my brain dead friend. Yeah, I thought you were 116 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:07.039 joking there. I figured that was a joke. But yeah, no, 117 00:17:07.200 --> 00:17:14.920 Moses the Black is not Jesus, and Jesus was not actually from Ethiopia. 118 00:17:14.960 --> 00:17:18.759 I don't even know what the We're going to have to do an investigation into 119 00:17:18.799 --> 00:17:22.720 the Hebrew visualized because just like it's just being promoted everywhere, it's probably got 120 00:17:22.759 --> 00:17:26.279 some kind of fed promotion and it's probably gonna lead to all kinds of madness 121 00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:30.119 and it's completely insane. I mean, it's just like the most ridiculous stuff 122 00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:37.519 all right now. As you can imagine, every Orthodox person knows that Christ 123 00:17:37.680 --> 00:17:44.319 is king because we have calltless icons showing him as the king. This of 124 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:49.839 course is the prophet, Priest and King icon. And this is my favorite 125 00:17:51.039 --> 00:17:53.440 icon. We have it downstairs here at this house, the icon wall, 126 00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:59.279 because it shows us that threefold office as a fulfillment of all the things that 127 00:17:59.359 --> 00:18:03.960 the Old test says the Messiah would be so one of the common Three of 128 00:18:03.000 --> 00:18:08.680 the common themes throughout the multitudes of Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament include the 129 00:18:08.720 --> 00:18:11.720 idea that Jesus would be a prophet. He would be the greatest of the 130 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:15.240 prophets. The Messiah will be the greatest of the prophets. He will preach 131 00:18:15.279 --> 00:18:21.759 to the nations, preach righteousness, preach against idolatry, preach against all of 132 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:26.559 the degeneracy of the pagan nations. He will also predict the future, which 133 00:18:26.599 --> 00:18:30.519 is part of the office of a prophet. Prophets don't just predict the future, 134 00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:36.480 they also are preachers. He would also be a priest in that he 135 00:18:36.519 --> 00:18:41.279 would fulfill the role of Milkisa Dek because, of course, the original type 136 00:18:41.279 --> 00:18:45.240 of Christ's priesthood is not the levitical priesthood or the ironic priesthood. It's the 137 00:18:45.279 --> 00:18:52.039 Melchizedekian priesthood. That does not mean that the levitical ironic priesthood is not also 138 00:18:52.160 --> 00:18:56.720 a type of Christ, but as Paul argues in Hebrews seven, it's actually 139 00:18:56.480 --> 00:19:04.519 pre eminent above the levitical because it comes before and Abraham, from whom the 140 00:19:04.599 --> 00:19:10.880 levitical priesthood derives its lineage. As Paul says, Aaron was in the loins 141 00:19:10.880 --> 00:19:15.960 of his father, Abraham paid tribute by that to very fact, by default 142 00:19:17.319 --> 00:19:25.200 to the greater when Abraham tithed to Melchizedek early on in Genesis. And so 143 00:19:25.279 --> 00:19:32.319 Malkisa Dek is an actual historical figure. He's not an unknown semi divine person. 144 00:19:32.359 --> 00:19:36.240 As a lot of idiotic people come out with these weird theories has nothing 145 00:19:36.279 --> 00:19:40.680 to do with the Mormon idea of the Melchizedekian priesthood. No, christ priesthood 146 00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:45.720 is according to Psalm one ten, he is forever eternally a priest after the 147 00:19:45.799 --> 00:19:52.400 order of Malkisa deck and that refers to his second person of the Godhead status 148 00:19:52.519 --> 00:19:57.400 as well as the intention to become man and to be this high priestly high 149 00:19:57.440 --> 00:20:03.279 priest role. And so it is Christ that is the Melchizidekian priest and the 150 00:20:03.319 --> 00:20:07.559 ironic levitical priesthood also is a type of and is fulfilled in Christ, as 151 00:20:07.559 --> 00:20:11.599 Hebrews seven itself argues. So you see, Hebrews actually argues that both are 152 00:20:12.960 --> 00:20:18.000 have their reference point in their telos in Christ. Both are fulfilled in Christ, 153 00:20:19.519 --> 00:20:23.200 but the Milkizidekian is superior. And so in that sense we could say 154 00:20:23.240 --> 00:20:30.039 that how could there be gentile priests as the prophecies of the Old Testament predict 155 00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.680 the end of Isaiah, how is that even possible? How could there be 156 00:20:33.720 --> 00:20:38.200 an altar in Egypt? As we read where do we read that recently in 157 00:20:38.200 --> 00:20:41.559 one of the livestreams that we did as Isaiah nineteen, How's there an alter 158 00:20:41.599 --> 00:20:47.200 in Egypt? Can only be a priest in Jerusalem and at the Temple. 159 00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:49.799 How could there be gentile priests are going to be alter in It's not possible. 160 00:20:52.279 --> 00:20:56.759 Well, it's possible because of the Messianic prophecies about the Covenant being opened 161 00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:02.640 up to the Gentiles and the superseding of the Ira priesthood by the Melchizedekian priesthood, 162 00:21:02.680 --> 00:21:04.920 which is the type of Christ. So christ priesthood, which is the 163 00:21:06.039 --> 00:21:10.799 Orthodox Church, is the priesthood spread throughout all the nations, the one true, 164 00:21:10.799 --> 00:21:15.480 Holy, Catholic and Apisolic Church. Everybody can go and see and learn 165 00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.240 and verify that. That is the Church of the first thousand years. So 166 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:22.920 that's the church that's spread throughout the Roman Empire, converted the nations. The 167 00:21:22.039 --> 00:21:26.680 Orthodox Church today is the only church that continues to believe the same identical dogmatic 168 00:21:26.720 --> 00:21:30.279 teachings of the Church of the first thousand years. Therefore, the Orthodox Church 169 00:21:30.359 --> 00:21:37.440 is the identically same Church of the first millennium. And thus the fulfillment of 170 00:21:37.519 --> 00:21:41.480 all of those Messianic prophecies and the prophecies about the gentile nations converting and coming 171 00:21:41.480 --> 00:21:44.599 into the Church. And I would add to that as I will argue throughout 172 00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:51.759 this discussion tonight, only the Orthodox Church still retains the classic teaching of symphonia, 173 00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:57.640 or that Christ is also king in the civil sphere. And this is 174 00:21:57.680 --> 00:22:02.640 the whole history of Byzantium history of the idea of the monarch as the icon 175 00:22:02.839 --> 00:22:07.440 of God in the sense of ruling on earth through divine justice. We see 176 00:22:07.440 --> 00:22:11.680 this in Romans thirteen, where even a pagan emperor, according to Paul and 177 00:22:11.720 --> 00:22:15.000 Romas thirteen, even Nero, who was completely wicked, can still in a 178 00:22:15.079 --> 00:22:21.200 sense be an image of divine providence and divine justice. Paul accords to the 179 00:22:21.279 --> 00:22:26.279 Roman Empire, to the Roman imperium, to Caesar the ability to exercise the 180 00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:30.400 sword, and that's nothing new. In fact, the same principle had been 181 00:22:30.400 --> 00:22:40.279 seen in the Book of Daniel when providentially Nevchaneezer is recognized as the existing authority. 182 00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:45.279 So even though he's pagan, he can still have a recognized providential authority. 183 00:22:45.720 --> 00:22:49.039 Now he has limits. He's not able to tell you to worship the 184 00:22:49.079 --> 00:22:55.160 statues of him, nor can Caesar tell you to stop worshiping Christ and worship 185 00:22:55.240 --> 00:22:59.160 him, and yet he still has the state authority. That's the attitude of 186 00:22:59.240 --> 00:23:03.440 Romans thirteen. Remember it's not in either or of total statism, nor is 187 00:23:03.480 --> 00:23:07.960 an attitude of no state at all. You see how Roman's thirteen has a 188 00:23:07.000 --> 00:23:11.079 balanced view that also has to be read in light of the rest of scripture. 189 00:23:11.599 --> 00:23:17.720 We see again an example of Daniel, a providential role for Nebuchaneezer, 190 00:23:18.559 --> 00:23:22.920 where God does allow him to rule and his empire is even spoken of in 191 00:23:22.960 --> 00:23:26.400 the early chapters of Daniel in that way that God's providence brought it about. 192 00:23:26.759 --> 00:23:34.480 We see the similar situation with Darius, well Cyrus, and Darius actually Cyrus 193 00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:38.400 has called the Great Shepherd. He becomes a type of Christ in the latter 194 00:23:38.480 --> 00:23:42.200 chapters of Isaiah, and he allows the temple to be rebuilt as well. 195 00:23:44.000 --> 00:23:49.799 I think that's right. Yeah, the decree goes forth, I think from 196 00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:59.640 Cyrus. Ezras says so. So the point here is that prophet, priest, 197 00:23:59.799 --> 00:24:07.039 and king are a triplicity, a trifled office that Christ fulfills, and 198 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:11.880 they all go together. So there's no Christ is King without the other two. 199 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:17.839 So I don't at all disagree with the correct phraseology of Christ is King. 200 00:24:17.880 --> 00:24:21.640 No, I just have two concerns. One concern is that a lot 201 00:24:21.680 --> 00:24:27.240 of the twitter spamming of it really has nothing to do with Christ in the 202 00:24:27.279 --> 00:24:30.079 sense in the Orthodox view. In other words, it needs to be the 203 00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:34.839 Orthodox view first, and that means that Christ first hass to reign in here, 204 00:24:36.880 --> 00:24:41.480 and we're all failing at that. And what happens a lot of times 205 00:24:41.559 --> 00:24:47.720 is a lot of people want to replace the inner repentance side of this with 206 00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:52.200 well, I'll just do a bunch of external tweeting, projecting, a bunch 207 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:57.559 of external owning, owning the libs with it. I'm gonna tweet it out 208 00:24:57.599 --> 00:25:02.000 to make everybody mad, and it has no reference to your actual life. 209 00:25:02.680 --> 00:25:04.680 And so they turn it into a performative act and that's not what it is. 210 00:25:04.720 --> 00:25:07.759 It's not a performative act. It's not a performance. It's not a 211 00:25:07.799 --> 00:25:14.920 thing to own the libs. And so a lot of the piety signalers there 212 00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:18.759 are correct in this point. Who we're saying this quite all? So everything 213 00:25:18.799 --> 00:25:21.799 on Twitter is so ridiculous. Can you either get these either ores right? 214 00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:23.960 So you get a bunch of people saying Christ is king, we should be 215 00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:29.759 able to say it, and we're gonna own everybody with it. That's annoying 216 00:25:30.079 --> 00:25:33.160 because okay, but are you applying this in reality, do you actually believe 217 00:25:33.160 --> 00:25:37.599 in the threefold office of Christ or do you actually think that this is just 218 00:25:37.640 --> 00:25:41.319 a base political thing. And that's the super annoying part of this which is 219 00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:45.759 wrong. Okay, you can't isolate one of these threefold offices to the exclusion 220 00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:49.400 of the other two and make this some sort of performative act where Christ is 221 00:25:49.480 --> 00:25:56.240 king to own the Libs. Because if you don't have the right theology go 222 00:25:56.319 --> 00:26:00.319 with this, I mean, it's all going to fail anyways, gonna be 223 00:26:00.359 --> 00:26:03.519 ridiculous. So we need the right theology. And the other thing too, 224 00:26:03.599 --> 00:26:10.880 is that the political application of it is really the lowest tier of importance. 225 00:26:11.920 --> 00:26:17.079 So it has to start with you. Then it moves to your local relationships, 226 00:26:17.400 --> 00:26:21.000 and then it moves out from that to the family, to you know, 227 00:26:21.200 --> 00:26:25.880 state, nation, et cetera. That's the model of permeation, the 228 00:26:25.880 --> 00:26:29.400 model of permeation. That's the way it's supposed to happen. Even if there 229 00:26:29.440 --> 00:26:33.599 have been situations in history where king converted and then his whole nation state converted, 230 00:26:33.839 --> 00:26:36.359 that's not the norm, especially not nowadays. That's not how it's going 231 00:26:36.400 --> 00:26:38.519 to happen now. So the way it's gonna happen nowadays because we don't really 232 00:26:38.559 --> 00:26:42.160 live in a Christian society. We don't live certainly don't live in Orthodox society. 233 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:47.039 We live in pretty much a pagan society. And how was Rome converted? 234 00:26:47.319 --> 00:26:51.799 Was it converted because they for three that the church for three centuries kept 235 00:26:51.799 --> 00:26:55.640 trying to get the emperor or convert and then enforce it top down. No, 236 00:26:55.640 --> 00:26:59.640 No, it took many, many centuries of martyrs. That's what converted 237 00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:04.039 the Roman Empire. So it began with the zealand devotion in an individual sense 238 00:27:06.200 --> 00:27:08.720 to the Orthodox faith, by the way, not to some crazy Protestant thing 239 00:27:08.839 --> 00:27:12.640 or some online e faith which doesn't exist. It's not a real thing. 240 00:27:14.359 --> 00:27:18.000 And then it spills out to people around you. And so if you can't, 241 00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:25.400 as our friend Father Moses often makes the point like, if you don't 242 00:27:25.400 --> 00:27:27.920 get along with your family, if you don't love your family and your friends, 243 00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:33.839 and you don't, you know, live a moral Christian life, you 244 00:27:33.920 --> 00:27:41.000 have no business fussing and everybody on the internet and projecting and sassin everybody about 245 00:27:41.079 --> 00:27:44.319 Christ as king, because it's just you're just being a hypocrite, right, 246 00:27:48.880 --> 00:27:52.680 And it's also not a thing for these annoying media pundas to chime in on. 247 00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.039 I'm not talking about anything in particular. I'm not talking about Flints or 248 00:27:56.039 --> 00:28:02.039 anybody like that. I'm talking about some of them, the more neo con 249 00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:06.039 element which has to chime in on this, which are super annoying. I'm 250 00:28:06.039 --> 00:28:10.440 talking about them, and they use it as this way to piety signal, 251 00:28:11.039 --> 00:28:15.440 right, and they'll be like, oh, you say Christ is king, 252 00:28:15.559 --> 00:28:22.160 but are you praying on Twitter? Is what they mean. Right, So 253 00:28:22.200 --> 00:28:26.079 there is a political application. There is a public application of these things. 254 00:28:26.119 --> 00:28:32.599 However, it's not the No, it's not like we go public political number 255 00:28:32.599 --> 00:28:41.599 one and priority number two family and then number three is church and individual. 256 00:28:41.640 --> 00:28:44.319 It's the other way around. Starts with the individual. And that doesn't mean 257 00:28:44.319 --> 00:28:47.559 that you can't be a politician or applying these things in the realm of the 258 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:51.279 political. It means that if you're doing that, then you have to, 259 00:28:51.720 --> 00:28:56.000 more than anyone else, have the hierarchy of importance there first. Does that 260 00:28:56.039 --> 00:29:02.160 make sense? That's the key thing here, because remember Roman Empire doesn't convert 261 00:29:02.240 --> 00:29:07.880 by a bunch of people, you know, spamming on scrolls, you know, 262 00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:15.279 Christus Rex and if you put up enough Christmas scrolls and graffiti throughout the 263 00:29:15.319 --> 00:29:18.480 Roman Empire. Then oh, then Caesar will convert and then he'll make everybody 264 00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:22.839 be Christian. I mean some of these people have this completely idiotic views about 265 00:29:25.359 --> 00:29:33.039 No, what you want is genuine conversions at the local individual level first, 266 00:29:33.920 --> 00:29:40.079 and then that will permeate the rest of society. Then when there's a majority 267 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:45.200 Orthodox society, which we're way off from that, then when that happens, 268 00:29:45.559 --> 00:29:49.920 then it's a lot more. It's more appropriate to speak of the possibility of 269 00:29:49.960 --> 00:29:56.000 a Christian state. You can't have a Christian state without a sizable majority of 270 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:02.079 the population wanting that. So that means they also can't be adherence to some 271 00:30:02.279 --> 00:30:07.799 ridiculous heterodox idea of Christ as King. And I'm not talking about Roman Catholics. 272 00:30:07.799 --> 00:30:11.799 I'm talking about Protestants. So if the majority of America is Protestant and 273 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.799 we get say, I don't know, let's say some weird thing happened, 274 00:30:15.839 --> 00:30:19.079 we're fifty percent of the Protestant this would never happen, but the Protestants agree 275 00:30:19.359 --> 00:30:25.799 Christ is King. How are you actually going to organize a coherent model of 276 00:30:26.279 --> 00:30:33.160 church state inter relationship symphonia with a bunch of lunatic Protestants, but never, 277 00:30:33.359 --> 00:30:37.039 it's never gonna work. And as we go through the history of the relationship 278 00:30:37.039 --> 00:30:42.160 between church and state in Protestant, Orthodox and Roman Catholic confessions, we'll actually 279 00:30:42.200 --> 00:30:48.640 see some of that. So thank you guys for tuning in, h like 280 00:30:48.680 --> 00:30:51.519 and share if you would. We got a nice seven hundred here tonight. 281 00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.599 What is your parer life? Like? Hey, why do you feel the 282 00:30:56.640 --> 00:31:02.279 need to ask me about my prayer life in a on an internet chat? 283 00:31:06.160 --> 00:31:07.559 So look, if you don't, if you don't like, nobody's making you 284 00:31:07.559 --> 00:31:10.599 stay here, you don't have to be here. You can get out of 285 00:31:10.640 --> 00:31:15.720 here. And the point of this is not like I almost never talk about 286 00:31:15.759 --> 00:31:21.319 piety issues, especially not on the internet. And as you get older, 287 00:31:21.359 --> 00:31:26.559 you're gonna get annoyed with this too. You're gonna get annoyed with all the 288 00:31:26.599 --> 00:31:36.440 piety stuff and all the self righteousness on Twitter and the Internet. But that 289 00:31:36.519 --> 00:31:41.119 doesn't mean that there's not don't run from what child are you been talking about? 290 00:31:45.319 --> 00:31:48.839 Come debate. We're not here to debate the Qur'an. Dude, I've 291 00:31:48.839 --> 00:31:52.440 done. I've literally debated all of the all of the Muslims. So I'm 292 00:31:52.440 --> 00:32:00.440 not gonna come debate you with However, many hundred subscribers go, So you're 293 00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:08.079 just wasting our time, all right, So what's the theological teaching? What 294 00:32:08.200 --> 00:32:10.640 is the theological teacher? Do we actually talk about that? Now Here? 295 00:32:10.640 --> 00:32:17.039 People are questioning how come you won't talk about JQ. So I've explained this 296 00:32:17.079 --> 00:32:22.839 a million times. Certain topics. Everybody knows you can't discuss those things on 297 00:32:22.920 --> 00:32:31.519 YouTube, and I talk about hotter racier topics over on my rock fin So 298 00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:36.000 if you'd follow my Tragy and Hope lectures, if you follow my recent lectures 299 00:32:36.000 --> 00:32:40.400 that I do live, and if you followed the recent lecture that I did 300 00:32:40.400 --> 00:32:49.359 on Israel and Palestine, you'll know that I got into some diceier topics. 301 00:32:49.960 --> 00:32:52.279 And so the question always comes up, how come you're not fully on board 302 00:32:52.279 --> 00:32:59.880 supporting every person out there pushing because you have it you guys have it backwards. 303 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:01.000 And this is what I've been trying to say for a long time. 304 00:33:02.880 --> 00:33:12.000 So it's not gonna work to do this model of pressing the issue on without 305 00:33:12.039 --> 00:33:15.279 the right theology. And I know you do think you think it doesn't matter. 306 00:33:15.359 --> 00:33:19.799 You think you know all that matters is if you can own libs and 307 00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:22.759 get the Amish question, right right, that's the only thing that matters. 308 00:33:23.880 --> 00:33:30.920 But the AMI's question isn't gonna save you, The honest question isn't gonna heal 309 00:33:31.000 --> 00:33:45.799 you. So well, so what's the priority? And do you even want 310 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:49.960 to hear what the actual teachings are? I mean, let me give you 311 00:33:49.920 --> 00:33:55.400 an example. So let's say we're gonna let's say we're gonna push the Amish 312 00:33:55.480 --> 00:33:59.359 question, and that's what we're gonna obsess over. We're gonna talk about it 313 00:33:59.359 --> 00:34:07.720 all day long, and we're gonna convert people to trad Catholicism or to Francis's 314 00:34:07.720 --> 00:34:15.199 Catholicism. Do you understand that Francis literally goes and worships in Amish synagogues? 315 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.320 And I hope you're you know what I'm saying. You're not too stupid, 316 00:34:22.440 --> 00:34:28.000 right, So Francis is the solution. You see how this is silly. 317 00:34:28.199 --> 00:34:38.559 It makes absolutely no sense. So if you want to call in and remember 318 00:34:38.599 --> 00:34:46.800 to keep it according to TOS, so nobody gains anything by just you know, 319 00:34:46.880 --> 00:34:53.480 going against TOS and getting banned. It doesn't do anything. And I've 320 00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:57.880 been at this for a long time. I know, I guarantee you, 321 00:34:57.880 --> 00:34:59.719 I know a lot more about all this stuff than you do. Man. 322 00:35:00.239 --> 00:35:01.320 So you know, if you want to call in and have a debate or 323 00:35:01.320 --> 00:35:05.039 something like that, we can do it. And you guys always say why 324 00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:07.119 don't you do this? And I do it, but you guys never go 325 00:35:07.159 --> 00:35:12.199 and pay attention to the stuff that I do. So so what's the point? 326 00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:15.199 Why why are you even here? What's the point is this? Guy? 327 00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:21.719 Jay Dyer? I am so all right? But see, you guys 328 00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:23.559 don't actually care about the history of theology. You just want to shout on 329 00:35:23.599 --> 00:35:30.519 Twitter. It's like nobody even cares about what the real issue is or what 330 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.519 the actual teachings are, So just go shout somewhere else. Man, what 331 00:35:34.519 --> 00:35:38.360 what do you want from me? I mean, if you don't want the 332 00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:42.199 actual history of the actual theology, I don't know what I mean because that's 333 00:35:42.199 --> 00:35:45.039 what we always cover. So what do you think? So you think it's 334 00:35:45.079 --> 00:35:50.320 gonna you're going to solve all this with a bunch of online shouting and well 335 00:35:50.320 --> 00:35:52.039 you're going to make a common cause with a bunch of Protestants to do this. 336 00:35:52.440 --> 00:35:58.559 Really you think that's going to work? Thank you guys though, for 337 00:35:58.599 --> 00:36:02.039 the super chat. I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, look, 338 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:07.519 I focus on what my wheelhouse is, and my wheelhouse is the topics that 339 00:36:07.559 --> 00:36:15.159 I cover. So the one of the reasons I don't focus on the political 340 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:22.199 is that as you get older, and as you you know, when you're 341 00:36:22.239 --> 00:36:25.800 in your twenties, you're very politically minded, you think you're gonna do a 342 00:36:25.800 --> 00:36:34.000 lot with politics, and then as you get older, you realize how I 343 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:36.360 don't mean to be black pilled here, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying. 344 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:39.000 I think politics is very limited what you can really do in politics, and 345 00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:43.800 you can do a lot at the local level, but you know, national 346 00:36:43.840 --> 00:36:49.559 politics and everybody getting so wrapped up and it's just it's really doesn't do anything. 347 00:36:49.840 --> 00:36:52.679 And after you get into your thirties and forties and you live through a 348 00:36:52.719 --> 00:36:57.119 lot of these elections and you've seen all this nonsense, you're gonna feel the 349 00:36:57.119 --> 00:37:02.199 same way. So you'll learn that what I'm saying is true as you get 350 00:37:02.199 --> 00:37:06.639 older. So does that mean that you can't be a politician and apply your 351 00:37:06.639 --> 00:37:09.599 classic principles. Now there's people who do this, and I support I think 352 00:37:09.599 --> 00:37:14.719 it's great that people do that. I just don't think that on a national 353 00:37:14.800 --> 00:37:23.239 level it's really, I mean presidential politics kind of a circus. So anyway, 354 00:37:23.480 --> 00:37:25.880 a lot of people live in these sort of fantasy worlds. They want 355 00:37:25.880 --> 00:37:30.280 to larp and pretend that and it's the same. By the way, I 356 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:32.039 don't have a problem critiquing Orthodox people too. They do the same thing where 357 00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:38.159 they we're going to set up an Orthodox business union part of America. We're 358 00:37:38.199 --> 00:37:42.880 not anywhere near that. Okay, we need like seventy eighty percent of population 359 00:37:43.079 --> 00:37:47.719 converted Orthodoxy before that would even be like on the table. Okay, But 360 00:37:49.239 --> 00:37:57.519 there's nothing wrong with talking about the church's teaching on the role of church and 361 00:37:57.559 --> 00:38:00.440 state. And that's what we're talking about tonight. What is the theological teaching 362 00:38:00.519 --> 00:38:07.599 of Orthodox Catholic and Protestant. So let's look at that, because again, 363 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:12.280 you know, as you guys know, Orthodox theology is taught by the icons. 364 00:38:12.360 --> 00:38:19.480 You can always look to canonical iconography to get the basics of our theology. 365 00:38:20.199 --> 00:38:22.679 But let's go with the Protestants first. Let's step over here to the 366 00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:25.559 Protestant world. Even though you might think, well, why wouldn't you start 367 00:38:25.559 --> 00:38:31.159 with orthox Roman Catholic, Well, in America, I think it's still the 368 00:38:31.199 --> 00:38:36.639 case that where's my Protestant pictures, I'll pull them up here we go. 369 00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:47.280 I think it's still the case that the majority of religious adherents in America, 370 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:53.519 I think are Protestant. I think that's right. So we'll start with that, 371 00:38:53.639 --> 00:38:58.000 just because in America that's the predominant view, right. I mean, 372 00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:01.880 America starts as and inment nation with a lot of Protestant influence. It's true 373 00:39:01.920 --> 00:39:07.239 there are a few Catholics there. There's the Carol family that's there, so 374 00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.239 there is a bit of a Catholic history of America. But there was also 375 00:39:10.239 --> 00:39:16.400 a lot of Episcopalians, Baptists, Deists, Masons. Right, there's an 376 00:39:16.440 --> 00:39:23.400 odd cavalcade of characters who kind of go into the spirit of America, the 377 00:39:23.400 --> 00:39:30.559 Founding Fathers and so forth. And so there's a strong Puritan and Protestant ethos 378 00:39:30.559 --> 00:39:38.679 there, especially with the Puritan work ethic, the whole idea of you know, 379 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:45.559 predestination manifesting itself in worldly blessings. Right, So if you're part of 380 00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:49.880 the elect, if you're a city on a hill, as many the Puritans 381 00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:52.159 said, even prior to you know, seventeen seventy six or whatever, prior 382 00:39:52.239 --> 00:39:57.039 to that, you've got the idea already in some of the Puritans that the 383 00:39:57.159 --> 00:40:02.960 New Israel has kind of equated to the American experiment of people like Cotton Mathers 384 00:40:04.360 --> 00:40:08.039 and these characters, right, And so you get this idea of setting up 385 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:13.719 a type of theocracy through the Puritans, and the Puritans are getting that out 386 00:40:13.760 --> 00:40:19.199 of a loose kind of dominion theology that Calvin had. And so I know 387 00:40:19.239 --> 00:40:22.760 all about this. I used to be a pretty committed Calvinist dominionist, and 388 00:40:22.840 --> 00:40:29.000 dominion theology just refers to a lot of people get obsessed over this. They 389 00:40:29.000 --> 00:40:31.280 think it's something ridiculous, and at times it is ridiculous, but it just 390 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:37.559 means that the dominion mandate of Genesis still applies to be fruitful and multiply, 391 00:40:37.920 --> 00:40:40.679 and it certainly it does. But of course, in the Orthodox view, 392 00:40:40.840 --> 00:40:45.519 that's fulfilled in the Church. The Church is who truly has the dominion mandate. 393 00:40:45.960 --> 00:40:52.480 And while it's also the case that the state should operate under Christian principles, 394 00:40:53.440 --> 00:40:58.559 that's not the first priority of the Christian to convert the state. We 395 00:40:58.679 --> 00:41:05.719 convert us families, cultures, tribes, and then the state follows kind of 396 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:10.880 the last you could say in that in that exercise, So the Protestants. 397 00:41:10.920 --> 00:41:15.000 Though, what's interesting is that if we go back to the early reformers, 398 00:41:15.000 --> 00:41:20.400 we want to talk about Luther, Calvin AND's wingli here. Uh not many 399 00:41:20.400 --> 00:41:24.719 people know that when the present Reformation kicks off, this was not solely motivated 400 00:41:24.800 --> 00:41:34.320 by a desire to fight the papacy. Certainly, uh there were uh, 401 00:41:34.639 --> 00:41:40.000 you know, theological obsessions that Luther had over certain doctrines like solo fida. 402 00:41:40.199 --> 00:41:44.440 And you know, he begins by questioning in the nine five PCs things like 403 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.559 purgatory and indulgences and temporal remission of sins and all this kind of stuff. 404 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:52.039 And if the pope has the power to, you know, dispense plenary indulgences, 405 00:41:52.079 --> 00:41:55.599 why why does any free everybody from purgator? So Luther asked a lot 406 00:41:55.639 --> 00:42:02.679 of these, uh legitimate theological questions, and it progresses into more fundamental theological 407 00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:07.280 questions. Luther becomes more and more hardcore Augustinian, as you guys know, 408 00:42:07.360 --> 00:42:10.800 becomes more predestinarian. He writes his book Bondage of the Will, where he 409 00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:19.719 essentially denies free will. But what not many people know is that Luther had 410 00:42:20.000 --> 00:42:27.559 tremendous support from the German princes and so the state, the German state, 411 00:42:28.079 --> 00:42:32.559 and these princes were really tired of the pope and they were a big part 412 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.599 of the motivation and support behind Luther. And we can see kind of similar 413 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:40.480 things with other Protestant reformers as well. Everybody kind of knows that, you 414 00:42:40.519 --> 00:42:44.280 know, the creation of the Church of England is Henry the Eighth. He 415 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:49.239 Hear the Eighth is kind of annoyed at the papal situation with divorce and not 416 00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:52.480 granting him, you know, what he wants with his ladies. He wants 417 00:42:52.599 --> 00:42:59.760 a male heir and he's having these issues and so Pope angers him and he 418 00:43:00.280 --> 00:43:04.280 I'm going to create the church being and that becomes in part a looting exercise, 419 00:43:04.320 --> 00:43:07.679 where the Church of England essentially is this new entity that then loots a 420 00:43:07.760 --> 00:43:12.719 lot of the Roman Catholic areas, monasteries, and it undergoes a kind of 421 00:43:12.760 --> 00:43:19.800 revolution that at times is sometimes called low Church Anglicanism, and there's also High 422 00:43:19.840 --> 00:43:23.039 Church Anglicanism, so you can get something kind of a variation there where low 423 00:43:23.159 --> 00:43:29.800 Church Anglican is almost perhaps even Congregationalists kind of puritan type of government, maybe 424 00:43:29.840 --> 00:43:36.039 even something akin to we cann't say full on. Many of them are Calvinists, 425 00:43:36.079 --> 00:43:42.159 but we can't say they're full on Presbyterian because Anglican kind of necessitates episcopal 426 00:43:42.239 --> 00:43:47.199 church governance in the recognition of the king. Many Presbyterians who are strict followers 427 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:57.119 of Luther, of course, end up being Presbyterian and preferring republican government as 428 00:43:57.119 --> 00:44:00.280 opposed to monarchy. And as you guys probably know, in England there's actual 429 00:44:00.400 --> 00:44:08.079 battles between the Royalists and was the cavaliers versus the royalists or whatever. So 430 00:44:08.119 --> 00:44:16.199 you get these religious wars over the relationship of church and state and the structure 431 00:44:16.280 --> 00:44:22.239 of not just the church but also the state. For example, in the 432 00:44:22.280 --> 00:44:27.119 times of the Westminster Confession, which is the sort of normative doctrine of Reformed 433 00:44:27.320 --> 00:44:36.119 Presbyterian theology, that's their primo confession, there were many people there very worried 434 00:44:36.199 --> 00:44:42.480 that there might be a concession to Erastianism, and Erascianism, if you don't 435 00:44:42.519 --> 00:44:47.960 know, is just Cicero papism, the idea that the king, the ruler, 436 00:44:49.079 --> 00:44:53.440 whoever it might be, president of the republic, even perhaps that he's 437 00:44:53.559 --> 00:44:59.079 now the head of the church. And so the Westminster Confession contains within it 438 00:44:59.159 --> 00:45:01.760 I think if I'm going for I haven't looked at Westminster Confession in probably fifteen 439 00:45:01.840 --> 00:45:07.679 years, but you know, they have these guards against the king or the 440 00:45:07.800 --> 00:45:14.599 ruler having any authority in the church, but they still have the idea that 441 00:45:16.239 --> 00:45:24.440 the state has a duty to God and it's not autonomous. In the Protestant 442 00:45:24.480 --> 00:45:29.519 theories, both I would say, Luther and Calvin, you could argue that 443 00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:37.840 there's still even this early on a kind of loose I wouldn't say theocracy. 444 00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:42.679 In other words, I would say Calvin is more of a proponent of theocracy, 445 00:45:42.719 --> 00:45:46.239 maybe even than Luther. Luther's not super concerned with the state, but 446 00:45:46.280 --> 00:45:52.360 he does think the state has a duty to kind of promote the basic ideas 447 00:45:52.360 --> 00:45:54.480 of Christian morals, the Ten Commandments and this kind of stuff. And so 448 00:45:54.639 --> 00:46:00.480 ironically, even though Luther was supported by the German princes against the Pope, 449 00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:05.559 Calvin actually spends up being more of a theocrat than Luther does. And this 450 00:46:05.639 --> 00:46:10.599 is where we get Puritanism. And there's a lot of inter nicene disputes that 451 00:46:10.639 --> 00:46:14.159 a lot of people don't know about or even care. Nobody even cares about 452 00:46:14.159 --> 00:46:17.880 this, but within the Reformed and Calvinist world, there's actually debates over to 453 00:46:17.960 --> 00:46:27.400 what degree Calvin was a theonomist. Theonymist just means a person believes that the 454 00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:32.000 Old Testament civil law teachings are in varying degree is still kind of applicable to 455 00:46:32.000 --> 00:46:37.000 today's society, so basically just theocracy to some degree. Now, Calvin doesn't 456 00:46:37.000 --> 00:46:43.880 think that the Church and the state kind of like he thinks they have spheres, 457 00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:50.039 and most people, i think in Church history recognize some role of spheres 458 00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.920 here until we get to the radical reformers, So until we get to the 459 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:58.519 Anabaptists. Whether you're Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic, most people think, 460 00:46:58.599 --> 00:47:02.079 okay, there's kind of sort of loose canonical if you're Orthodox, are Catholic 461 00:47:04.280 --> 00:47:10.480 barriers between what the king or ruler canon can't do and what the bishops and 462 00:47:10.519 --> 00:47:15.800 the priests cannon can't do. So there's kind of loosely defined ideas. It 463 00:47:15.880 --> 00:47:21.760 is true that in the late Middle Ages and into the Middle Ages, there's 464 00:47:21.559 --> 00:47:25.039 it's fuzzy at times because you have at times monks who become warrior monks. 465 00:47:25.239 --> 00:47:30.800 That's unheard of and forbidden in the Orthodox world, but it exists by the 466 00:47:30.920 --> 00:47:35.360 eleven twelfth century in the Latin West. There's a great chapter on that in 467 00:47:35.440 --> 00:47:39.960 this book. I highly recommend the mind Or of Papadoccus book on this period 468 00:47:40.000 --> 00:47:45.320 of eleven hundred to fourteen fifty three to the collapse of Byzantium. There's whole 469 00:47:45.360 --> 00:47:50.599 chapter on the new element of the rise of the warrior monk, and that 470 00:47:50.679 --> 00:47:53.360 was actually one of the elements of the new Gregorian papacy. So they were 471 00:47:53.360 --> 00:48:00.559 big supporters of this because it now allowed for another type of we can say 472 00:48:00.679 --> 00:48:05.719 army, so to speak, on the behalf of the pope. So there 473 00:48:05.760 --> 00:48:13.519 have been times where there's crossing the boundaries of the bishops becoming princes that fight, 474 00:48:14.679 --> 00:48:19.360 and that, to be clear here is actually a violation of canon law. 475 00:48:19.400 --> 00:48:21.079 We'll look at that in a minute. We don't want to go there 476 00:48:21.159 --> 00:48:22.079 right now, but because we're going to stand on the Protestant stuff. But 477 00:48:22.800 --> 00:48:25.920 all the way up until even Calvin and Luther, you have this loose idea 478 00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:31.599 that there's limitations spheres of authority, and even though there's violations and sort of 479 00:48:31.599 --> 00:48:37.280 overstepping the boundaries, most of church history has some kind of recognition of this, 480 00:48:37.960 --> 00:48:39.880 at least church history in the sense of when we start to get canon 481 00:48:39.960 --> 00:48:45.239 law because the first three centuries, even though there's canons that we have sat 482 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:49.719 the local synods, we don't yet have what we call a codified canon law 483 00:48:50.199 --> 00:48:52.599 because the Church is still persecuted in underground, so they're not going to be 484 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:58.639 formulating, you know, really laid out theories of church and state. Now, 485 00:48:58.679 --> 00:49:01.480 technically speaking, Paul, Apostles and the Old Testament already kind of have 486 00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:07.360 taught about the role of ecclesia and state because even in the Old Testament there's 487 00:49:07.360 --> 00:49:14.599 clear defined roles between the king and the priest. If you didn't know, 488 00:49:14.719 --> 00:49:19.440 this is already in Mosaic law. Moses in the Law writes out the book 489 00:49:19.559 --> 00:49:24.880 of law for kings and what their duties and boundaries are. Okay, so 490 00:49:24.920 --> 00:49:29.920 those principles again they're already in the Old Testament. They come out of Mosaic 491 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.360 law. For those that don't know, the apostles, I believe are in 492 00:49:34.360 --> 00:49:38.039 incontinuity with those basic ideas. And hence why Paul says that you know, 493 00:49:38.199 --> 00:49:42.199 Caesar, he calls Caesar for those who don't know. In Romans thirteen, 494 00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:46.079 a diaconos a deacon, so Caesar is seen as a servant of God to 495 00:49:46.280 --> 00:49:52.599 dispense divine justice. Now he might be a terrible example of that role, 496 00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:57.360 right, as many of the Roman emperors were. They became tyrants, they 497 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:04.880 became purscars of the church. But even Paul Rum's thirteen can call Nero a 498 00:50:05.000 --> 00:50:08.119 kind of Diacinos, even though he's a wicked degenerate. And I believe that 499 00:50:08.199 --> 00:50:14.519 Nero is the Antichrist of the Book of Revelation because in Gematria and yes, 500 00:50:14.599 --> 00:50:19.199 John in the Book of Revelation uses Gematria as a code to speak for who 501 00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:23.559 he's talking about, because he couldn't outright say I am talking about Nero as 502 00:50:23.599 --> 00:50:30.440 Antichrist. Nero's name in Hebrew comes out to neuron cusar, which is sixt' 503 00:50:30.440 --> 00:50:32.599 six' six, So it's a key indicator. And I believe John was writing 504 00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:38.800 in the Day's Nero that Nero is the immediate historical beast doesn't mean that Nero 505 00:50:39.199 --> 00:50:44.280 is the final Antichrist. There will be some final Antichrist figure at some point. 506 00:50:44.519 --> 00:50:47.960 But Nero is a type of Antichrist, as were people like told of 507 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:52.280 Me, as were people like Neimrod. That's how biblical typology works. It 508 00:50:52.360 --> 00:50:59.320 kind of repeats in patterns, so back to Protestants and Protestants and Protestanism. 509 00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:04.519 Then early on what we call classical Protestant. Classical Protestism is the period of 510 00:51:04.559 --> 00:51:07.280 Martin Luther, John Calvin's Wingley, and a couple of the other figures like 511 00:51:07.320 --> 00:51:15.880 Malanchthon and uh, you know, people contemporaries of that first generation of Reformation, 512 00:51:15.760 --> 00:51:20.320 and then maybe some of the people even a generation after are also kind 513 00:51:20.360 --> 00:51:23.960 of classical Protestants, you could say, like Malanchthon or maybe even Turitan for 514 00:51:23.960 --> 00:51:30.239 instance, Turretan to being a classical Calvinist theologian. So sometimes that becomes scholastic 515 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:38.440 Protestantism, so that the scholastic Protestants, the Puritans, the Calvinists, uh, 516 00:51:38.719 --> 00:51:45.119 they develop a much more kind of fleshed out idea of what the role 517 00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:50.760 of church and state is. And it's typically pretty theocratic. Right. For 518 00:51:50.800 --> 00:51:55.559 example, Calvin has sermons on Deuteronomy where he pretty consistently says that this the 519 00:51:55.599 --> 00:52:00.599 principles in the in the the in Deuteronomy still apply. Okay, so you 520 00:52:00.639 --> 00:52:07.400 don't have to necessarily apply every single penal sanction, but the basic idea of 521 00:52:07.480 --> 00:52:10.639 the application of the penal sanctions to today still applies. That's why Puritans, 522 00:52:10.639 --> 00:52:15.519 for example, if you've all seen the Scarlett letter and then heard about the 523 00:52:15.519 --> 00:52:21.360 Salem witch trade, that's why the idea was that the civil penalties for public 524 00:52:21.360 --> 00:52:24.679 witchcraft and so forth still apply. And that was true in the Roalancatholic world 525 00:52:24.679 --> 00:52:29.960 as well, because in the Middle Ages you did have oftentimes civil penalties for 526 00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:32.559 things like witchcraft and so forth. Now people say, yeah, and we 527 00:52:32.559 --> 00:52:37.239 should punish adultery too, and all that. Now there have been civil penalties 528 00:52:37.239 --> 00:52:40.519 for adultery in canon law and so forth, and even in civil law in 529 00:52:40.519 --> 00:52:50.639 the Middle Ages as well as skittles. But the other interesting distinction here is 530 00:52:50.639 --> 00:52:57.880 that in Orthodox views of this, the punishment is determined by the sphere. 531 00:52:58.719 --> 00:53:01.599 So for example, if someone was excommunicated from the church, it's not the 532 00:53:01.679 --> 00:53:07.480 role of the church to punish people. Okay, The excommunication is itself kind 533 00:53:07.519 --> 00:53:14.280 of a punishment. So the church might say to you know, a ruler 534 00:53:14.519 --> 00:53:16.239 or a duke or somebody I don't know, maybe a duke becomes a heretic, 535 00:53:16.239 --> 00:53:22.400 and the Orthodox Church is, okay, you're excommunicated, and then or 536 00:53:22.719 --> 00:53:25.199 I don't know, some other heretic or something. It's then the state that 537 00:53:25.280 --> 00:53:30.440 can then determine the penalty of that in a civil sense. So that's again 538 00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:36.840 spheres of authority, and again between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic throughout the 539 00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:42.159 Middle Ages. I tend to view this as not that different. I don't 540 00:53:42.199 --> 00:53:45.880 think the case it's the case that there is some difference between say the Roman 541 00:53:45.920 --> 00:53:51.960 Catholic people calls for crusades. We don't see anything like that really in the 542 00:53:52.039 --> 00:53:58.519 East. Per se, you do have battles with Muslims on the basis of 543 00:53:58.639 --> 00:54:01.599 you know, a Serbian kings fighting Islam. So I wouldn't go so far 544 00:54:01.599 --> 00:54:05.119 as to say that even all war is like wrong or bad or anything like 545 00:54:05.159 --> 00:54:08.360 that. I think that there is defensive, justified war and so forth. 546 00:54:13.599 --> 00:54:19.880 But there is an agreement, I would say, typically between East and West 547 00:54:19.960 --> 00:54:24.239 on the basic ideas of things like the duty of the state to operate under 548 00:54:24.719 --> 00:54:30.639 Christian principles because the majority of the populations are Christian. Okay, So it's 549 00:54:30.679 --> 00:54:35.320 not being enforced or pushed or promulgated because of some sort of top down thing. 550 00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:42.280 It's because the societies are Christian majority. So when we start to see 551 00:54:42.440 --> 00:54:47.519 Protestantism come about and react against what I believe is an earlier papal revolution. 552 00:54:49.440 --> 00:54:52.639 Part of the reason protestantm occurs, in my view, is precisely because of 553 00:54:52.760 --> 00:54:55.760 the Gregorian Reforms. So if you're familiar with the Gregorian Reforms, you know 554 00:54:55.840 --> 00:55:01.599 that in the period of the eleven hundreds you get about one hundred years where 555 00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:07.760 the Germanic tribes literally appoint the pope for about one hundred years. And so 556 00:55:07.800 --> 00:55:10.639 this, by the way, undercuts the toll the ridiculous idea that Roman Catholics 557 00:55:10.639 --> 00:55:15.800 were never under any kind of ceso papism. No, it's just papalo crism, 558 00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:22.079 where Otto and all these other kings were basically disappointing who they wanted as 559 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:25.320 the pope to control the office of the papacy. We have a similar situation 560 00:55:25.639 --> 00:55:31.119 when the papacy moves to France in Avignon for seventy years, the See of 561 00:55:31.159 --> 00:55:36.039 Peter in France, right, and it has become such a mess that's known 562 00:55:36.039 --> 00:55:42.199 as the Great Western Schism, where you have three people claiming to be the 563 00:55:42.199 --> 00:55:45.639 pope through two anti popes who knows and it takes an ecumenical council, the 564 00:55:45.679 --> 00:55:50.639 Council of Constance to solve this, which is ironic because of course Roman Catholic 565 00:55:50.880 --> 00:55:54.559 theology says that councils are above the pope. So when there's three rival popes, 566 00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:59.079 what do they do? They turn to a council. But remember popes 567 00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:01.480 are so above councils. So it's all a bunch of casoustrie and it's absurd, 568 00:56:01.519 --> 00:56:15.079 but it's based around this idea that we see in Dictatus Pope of the 569 00:56:15.119 --> 00:56:20.880 Gregorian Reforms, and this is Pope Gregory the seventh. Again, there's great 570 00:56:20.960 --> 00:56:25.559 chapters on this, the mind or Papadocus book, and it makes essentially all 571 00:56:25.559 --> 00:56:30.960 these outlandish claims which don't just apply to church and state, and actually points 572 00:56:31.000 --> 00:56:36.480 out that the papacy, the pope is actually the quisa's hatterac He's the universe 573 00:56:36.519 --> 00:56:39.159 is super being. All the emperors and kings in the world submit to the 574 00:56:39.199 --> 00:56:43.920 Pope. They all must kiss his ring. He decides who rules in every 575 00:56:43.960 --> 00:56:46.400 country in the world. His is the only name in the world. He 576 00:56:46.440 --> 00:56:52.880 may oppose all emperors, he determines all bishops in the world. And again, 577 00:56:53.880 --> 00:56:58.400 well, hopefully we all know how foreign this is to the canons of 578 00:56:58.440 --> 00:57:01.320 the councils. Okay, we just cover this in the debate with or in 579 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:06.079 the debate review with Luigi, where we went through multiple canons, the ancient 580 00:57:06.119 --> 00:57:09.079 Ken's Apostolic Canons. For example, Canon thirty four to thirty five says that 581 00:57:10.519 --> 00:57:15.400 no bishop can go outside of his own sea, even the first bishop cannot 582 00:57:15.440 --> 00:57:19.679 go outside of his own sea, and let him do all things in accord 583 00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.559 with all the rest. Okay, well, that's Soynodalism. That's not Vatican 584 00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:27.079 One where the pope does not need the consent of the other bishops. Okay, 585 00:57:27.119 --> 00:57:30.719 Canon thirty four, as we covered the other night, thirty four slash 586 00:57:30.760 --> 00:57:37.320 thirty five depending on the numberings. And you'll notice that again it's the Rouma 587 00:57:37.400 --> 00:57:39.400 Church has never aired. All these things go together. This is a valid, 588 00:57:39.960 --> 00:57:45.960 absolutely correct that it's papal teaching. Every scholar that you look up that 589 00:57:45.000 --> 00:57:49.679 discusses dictatas pape will talk about it. As I've never seen anybody say it's 590 00:57:49.719 --> 00:57:53.800 not valid. So Tishynsky talks about it, Papa, Doaca's mind or if 591 00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:59.239 they all talk about it as valid as far as we can tell. But 592 00:57:59.440 --> 00:58:02.840 this renation, this evolution here of the role of church and state. You 593 00:58:02.880 --> 00:58:07.519 see that this is an innovation because prior to this, the pope didn't even 594 00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:12.719 call the ecumenical councils. The emperor did. And if we look at the 595 00:58:12.719 --> 00:58:15.320 seven Ecamenical council, it speaks of the Emperor as the God ordained Emperor, 596 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:22.360 the voice and pen of God. Right, all this flowery language that Luigi 597 00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:29.840 brought up in the live stream covering his debate with Voice of Reason. Yeah, 598 00:58:29.880 --> 00:58:32.599 exactly. The Pope is the queisasaderaik. He's the one who was this 599 00:58:34.320 --> 00:58:38.199 my indeed, right, as Christopher Walkin says, he's the god Emperor. 600 00:58:40.840 --> 00:58:45.039 But no one had ever seen anything like Dictatus Pope in the first thousand years. 601 00:58:45.840 --> 00:58:52.119 And that shows that the doctor of the papacy is an evolution. And 602 00:58:52.159 --> 00:58:55.320 if that's the case, then the entire premise of what for example, Voice 603 00:58:55.360 --> 00:59:00.800 of Reason and Ibara argue, oh, that was always there. If this 604 00:59:00.920 --> 00:59:05.280 is not always there, then it wasn't always there. You say, all, 605 00:59:05.360 --> 00:59:07.559 then it evolved. Okay, well it evolved, then it wasn't always 606 00:59:07.559 --> 00:59:14.119 there. So and I want to show you that just an example, The 607 00:59:14.119 --> 00:59:17.400 Canons of Chalcedon, for example, limit all clergy, and you'll notice in 608 00:59:17.480 --> 00:59:21.639 every one of the canons of the councils that speaks about clergy and bishops and 609 00:59:21.679 --> 00:59:24.960 their roles or limitations. There's never exemptions for the Bishop of Rome. So 610 00:59:25.039 --> 00:59:28.679 all the Roman Catholics who discussed this, they always say, well, it's 611 00:59:28.719 --> 00:59:31.599 an argument from science, because they already all understood it. Okay. But 612 00:59:34.400 --> 00:59:40.559 so they understood that the Roman sea had total supremacy and jurisdiction, but they 613 00:59:40.599 --> 00:59:45.639 also enacted canons that contradict that. So the pope had to throw out the 614 00:59:45.679 --> 00:59:49.199 canons that he didn't like in literally every council. But they also believed in 615 00:59:49.199 --> 00:59:52.960 people supremacy as they enact canons they contradicted. So you see how these arguments 616 00:59:53.000 --> 00:59:58.719 are spacious, absurd and contradictory from the Roman Catholics. And that's why Calcedon 617 00:59:59.000 --> 01:00:04.760 they love to appeal to calcul Well, it says that if your clergy you 618 01:00:04.800 --> 01:00:13.800 cannot be in the military or in any secular position, Well how can you 619 01:00:13.920 --> 01:00:16.360 not? There's no exemption for the pope. By the way, So if 620 01:00:16.400 --> 01:00:23.079 you can't be in the military or in any secular profession, state role, 621 01:00:25.119 --> 01:00:30.559 then how is it that you're the quisants haiderak and the emperor of all emperors? 622 01:00:31.320 --> 01:00:34.800 How is it that every emperor in the world submits to you and you 623 01:00:34.840 --> 01:00:37.599 can depose them. How is it that, uh, you know, Alexander, 624 01:00:37.639 --> 01:00:45.199 Pope, Alexander can have his own standing armies, standing armies? Do 625 01:00:45.239 --> 01:00:52.119 you think that Chalcedon at all had in mind the possibility that the pope could 626 01:00:52.119 --> 01:00:55.280 have standing armies? And by the way, they were so ridiculous in the 627 01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.320 time of Gregory that excuse me, Alexander, the Borgia Pope, that you 628 01:01:00.360 --> 01:01:05.960 would actually communicate the state the people that wouldn't fight for I mean, you 629 01:01:05.960 --> 01:01:07.960 talk about corruption so like it's not just a matter of a well, they 630 01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:14.559 were corrupt, okay, but it's not just a matter of corruption. It's 631 01:01:14.599 --> 01:01:21.920 a matter of what the absurd claims of dictatus Pope are. And it's not 632 01:01:22.039 --> 01:01:24.719 just dictatus Poppy either. Again, we've hammered this home a million times and 633 01:01:24.840 --> 01:01:34.920 it just goes in one anyone air out the other. And we have to 634 01:01:34.960 --> 01:01:39.840 talk about this because this is the reason why the Protestants had such a overreaction 635 01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:46.000 against this stuff. They're both wrong in our view. In thirteen oh two, 636 01:01:46.239 --> 01:01:55.159 Pope Boniface publishes famous statement called unim sanctum. And not only does unum 637 01:01:55.199 --> 01:02:00.519 sanctam teach that you have to be in union with the Roman See to be 638 01:02:00.599 --> 01:02:04.920 saved, and not just in a generic It's not like all the world religions 639 01:02:04.920 --> 01:02:08.840 are somehow loosely in a union. No public communion with the Roman Sea is 640 01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:13.960 what this document's talking about. Because the Vatican two people will try to say, 641 01:02:14.119 --> 01:02:17.880 oh, well, everybody is in a kind of union with the Bishop 642 01:02:17.880 --> 01:02:21.840 of Rome, even the Muslims. Right, that's the Vatican too, like 643 01:02:21.920 --> 01:02:25.159 all the churches in every world religion is kind of loosely in union with Francis. 644 01:02:25.960 --> 01:02:30.079 That's the Vatican two model of everybody being on a graded scale, concentric 645 01:02:30.119 --> 01:02:36.800 circles away from Rome in the center, which is ridiculous because there's canons in 646 01:02:37.159 --> 01:02:42.079 for seven councils that forbid you from going to as if you're a cleric, 647 01:02:42.159 --> 01:02:51.920 to worship in the synagogue or the churches of heretics. In every post Vatican 648 01:02:51.960 --> 01:02:55.000 two pope has gone and prayed in the mosque, in the synagogue and with 649 01:02:55.039 --> 01:03:00.960 heretics, violating the ancient canons because they don't care what Kennon said. They 650 01:03:00.960 --> 01:03:04.559 don't care that it was a unanimous teaching of the early Church that you can't 651 01:03:04.960 --> 01:03:09.239 go and worship in a mosque towards Mecca. That's crazy and m you tell 652 01:03:09.280 --> 01:03:16.119 us Romancologics, what's the problem. So you mean the guy that called the 653 01:03:16.199 --> 01:03:22.679 office of the Pope the pope calls a crusade against Islam. But now you 654 01:03:22.719 --> 01:03:28.039 can build a multi faith center and pray in mosques with Muslims towards Mecca. 655 01:03:28.519 --> 01:03:36.239 You don't see that as a contradiction Roman catholicsopp nopoop oop Yeah exactly. And 656 01:03:36.280 --> 01:03:38.880 that's why to answer the original guy's question, how are you going to make 657 01:03:38.920 --> 01:03:50.599 a common course with telling people that Christianity is what Francis offers when I'm signed 658 01:03:50.639 --> 01:03:54.039 them. Doesn't just talk about the necessity to be in community with the Romans 659 01:03:54.039 --> 01:04:00.079 he to be saved. It also talks about it is necessary for the state 660 01:04:01.519 --> 01:04:08.079 to submit to the Pope. So people cite this document and they think, 661 01:04:08.079 --> 01:04:11.840 oh, this is one of those you know, Cantatae Domino Council Florence documents 662 01:04:11.840 --> 01:04:13.880 that says that you have to be in king of the Roman to be saved 663 01:04:13.880 --> 01:04:17.159 the haha, no salvation outside the church extraclaton to nolslos Okay, yeah, 664 01:04:17.199 --> 01:04:23.320 but it also says that you have to be in union with the Roman see 665 01:04:23.719 --> 01:04:29.280 to be a legitimate ruler, and the pope will decide who the ruler is, 666 01:04:29.280 --> 01:04:31.360 and that you have to believe in the temporal supremacy of the pope to 667 01:04:31.400 --> 01:04:42.159 be saved as well. You see, now the question is does that still 668 01:04:42.159 --> 01:04:44.840 apply well, as we're going to see in a minute, No, the 669 01:04:44.920 --> 01:04:51.880 Roman calogy Church does not anymore teach the temporal supremacy dictatis pape unamsanctam view of 670 01:04:51.920 --> 01:05:01.079 the Roman Catholic papacy. Because are you familiar with the tiara? Did you 671 01:05:01.119 --> 01:05:10.880 know what the triple tiara is? Triple tiara is the threefold supremacy that the 672 01:05:10.920 --> 01:05:17.920 pope has, and one of those three crowns is the authority over all state 673 01:05:18.000 --> 01:05:23.760 rulers. The post Vatican two popes. I think it was Paul the six 674 01:05:24.679 --> 01:05:30.639 took this thing off. So it's very symbolic that Paul the six, the 675 01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:31.840 real pope a Vatican too. John the twenty third calls it, and then 676 01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:36.159 Paul the six finishes it. It's very significant that he took this thing off, 677 01:05:36.559 --> 01:05:41.960 and to my knowledge, they've not worn it since. Right, so 678 01:05:41.960 --> 01:05:45.239 you could see John the twenty third looks like was the last one that had 679 01:05:45.280 --> 01:05:47.719 on. Maybe Paul the sixth War. Its some, but he's the one 680 01:05:47.719 --> 01:05:51.440 that dispensed with it. Yeah, so here's John the twenty third wearing the 681 01:05:51.480 --> 01:05:59.400 triple crown, and that's been dispensed with. I don't know if they auctioned 682 01:05:59.440 --> 01:06:00.880 it off or so old, or if he's just sitting in the Vatican or 683 01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:06.440 where it is. But this is photoshopped. That's not him actually wearing it. 684 01:06:06.440 --> 01:06:11.719 You can tell it's photoshopped on there. But this has to do with 685 01:06:12.800 --> 01:06:18.679 the Vatican two teaching post dignitatis humani and post nosrotte that they no longer mandate 686 01:06:19.159 --> 01:06:26.440 and stress the Christian state. In fact, Benedict and others people think Benedict 687 01:06:26.440 --> 01:06:30.840 was a super trapped Benedict was actually calling for the decatholicization of many European states. 688 01:06:32.079 --> 01:06:34.800 Now there's a million lines of cope. Well, he was doing that 689 01:06:34.840 --> 01:06:38.800 because they're not Christian anymore. It looks bad to call it Catholic. No, 690 01:06:38.639 --> 01:06:41.880 no, no, that's not why they're doing this. They're doing this 691 01:06:42.000 --> 01:06:47.280 because the Vatican two teaching is religious liberty, indifferentism and so forth. And 692 01:06:47.320 --> 01:06:53.880 we'll see that in a minute. Because the very thing that payble encyclicals dogmatic 693 01:06:53.920 --> 01:07:00.880 teaching. Murari voss Lamentabilei, Syllabus of errors. Right, these all condemn 694 01:07:02.320 --> 01:07:08.360 religious liberty, freedom of thought, freedom of press, and so forth as 695 01:07:08.519 --> 01:07:14.599 heresies. Vatican two, Dignatasimani says, now, this is the true spirit 696 01:07:14.639 --> 01:07:18.599 of Christ is to have religious liberty. Now here's the problem, though. 697 01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:24.039 Religious liberty, now that's a bit of a vague term, because does that 698 01:07:24.159 --> 01:07:29.880 mean that you can do whatever you want. Well, it's always been vague. 699 01:07:30.440 --> 01:07:32.480 And religious liberty and freedom of press, freedom of conscience, freedom of 700 01:07:32.519 --> 01:07:36.159 worship, those were all Protestant doctrines, their protestant Ism one oh one. 701 01:07:39.320 --> 01:07:45.119 The Protestant rulers and reformers made sure to stress, but they weren't consistent with 702 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:47.480 it. But they made sure to stress that we are not submitting to the 703 01:07:47.480 --> 01:07:49.960 pope because we have freedom of worship, freedom of conscience, and we don't 704 01:07:49.960 --> 01:07:53.079 have to believe it just because the Pope says it. We have to be 705 01:07:53.119 --> 01:07:58.679 convinced of it. Now. They weren't consistent though, because Calvin had Servetus 706 01:07:58.719 --> 01:08:01.960 put to death, and Michael Servitus could appeal to the same principles that Calvin 707 01:08:02.000 --> 01:08:05.719 was appealing to against the pope. Right, Michael Cervita said well, I'm 708 01:08:05.719 --> 01:08:11.199 not convinced of the Trinity. John Calvin says Michael Cervinas ought to be put 709 01:08:11.199 --> 01:08:15.679 to death because he's denying the dogma the Trinity. Well, the Pope says 710 01:08:15.679 --> 01:08:19.000 that the Calvinists that be put to death because they're denying multiple Roman Catholic dogmas. 711 01:08:19.640 --> 01:08:23.399 So you see how freedom of worship, freedom of conscience, freedom of 712 01:08:23.439 --> 01:08:27.600 press, etcetera. In principle. Okay, they sound good, and there 713 01:08:27.680 --> 01:08:30.520 might be a sense in which we have those, but they're ambiguous, just 714 01:08:30.600 --> 01:08:35.199 as phrases. What does that mean. Does freedom of worship mean that I'm 715 01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:42.840 free to erect Satanic temples and worship Satan and offer human sacrifice? Some people 716 01:08:42.880 --> 01:08:49.239 think so literally, right, And if you read some of the documents about 717 01:08:49.239 --> 01:08:57.359 it can too. It's hard to see how that doesn't also apply. Because 718 01:08:58.119 --> 01:09:04.159 one of the documents that came, if it's a didn't tas Humani or the 719 01:09:04.199 --> 01:09:09.439 one there into Gracio one or one of them talks about how there should be 720 01:09:09.439 --> 01:09:15.439 no restrictions on other groups, sects and cults in society. And some people 721 01:09:15.479 --> 01:09:18.920 make the argument that well, this was during the Cold War and they were 722 01:09:18.920 --> 01:09:25.359 saying all this so that they could help convince the Soviets to let the church 723 01:09:25.479 --> 01:09:28.840 be free. And that's not why they were doing that. They weren't teaching 724 01:09:28.920 --> 01:09:34.399 religious liberty because of Soviets. Okay, give me a break. If that 725 01:09:34.520 --> 01:09:36.960 was the case, then they should walk it back. Now that there's no 726 01:09:38.159 --> 01:09:44.119 Soviet empire anymore. Did they do that? No, No, the Pope's 727 01:09:44.239 --> 01:09:49.960 still call for the de christianization of the state. They still call for religious 728 01:09:49.960 --> 01:09:58.800 liberty, freedom of worship, and so forth. Now you said, well, 729 01:09:58.800 --> 01:10:01.359 what's the problem, Well, as we see here, So here's dignatatist 730 01:10:01.399 --> 01:10:06.199 humani. This is the Vatican two document which is about supposedly, on the 731 01:10:06.239 --> 01:10:10.560 basis of the dignity of the individual or the human being, he should never 732 01:10:10.600 --> 01:10:15.239 be compelled, never be in any way that the church or religious teacher should 733 01:10:15.239 --> 01:10:18.960 never have any quote, violence connected to it. Now this is ambiguous as 734 01:10:18.960 --> 01:10:23.319 well, because of course the church shouldn't go out and like chop people's heads 735 01:10:23.359 --> 01:10:28.399 off. But the problem is that this is the very argumentation of the Protestants 736 01:10:28.960 --> 01:10:35.399 as to why there should be no dogmatic connection to the state. Now, 737 01:10:35.399 --> 01:10:43.199 they weren't consistent with that, But as the Protestant Reformation progresses, who are 738 01:10:43.199 --> 01:10:46.840 the other reformers that many of us know about but often forget about after Luther, 739 01:10:46.960 --> 01:10:54.560 Calvin's Wingley, Malanchthon, etc. The Anabaptists. The Anabaptists, even 740 01:10:54.560 --> 01:11:00.960 though we don't think of them as the Reformation, they're actually a gigantic portion 741 01:11:00.000 --> 01:11:05.399 of the Reformation, which arguably you could say has had now more. The 742 01:11:05.399 --> 01:11:13.560 theology of Anabaptism, i would argue, is actually now more popular, maybe 743 01:11:13.560 --> 01:11:21.079 inadvertently nowadays, than the actual theology of Luther and Calvin. How's that? 744 01:11:21.960 --> 01:11:28.880 Well, Anabaptist taught that. As we said, this is what's called the 745 01:11:29.000 --> 01:11:32.479 Radical Reformation, right, And it's very important to know about the Radical Reformation 746 01:11:32.600 --> 01:11:36.640 because the Reformation, again, it's not just Lutheran, Calvin and the famous 747 01:11:36.640 --> 01:11:42.720 guys. When you start to look at the Radical Reformation, you start realizing, 748 01:11:42.720 --> 01:11:48.640 hey, wait a minute, these dudes they actually sound like Baptists, 749 01:11:48.680 --> 01:11:58.720 Evangelicals, Charismatics, and most of American Christianity. Now, it's true that 750 01:11:58.880 --> 01:12:03.560 we don't have a direct lineal descent necessarily to the Radical Reformers, right, 751 01:12:05.279 --> 01:12:11.520 there are some groups that exist today that still do have historical lineage to the 752 01:12:11.600 --> 01:12:16.079 Radical Reformers, the hutter Rights, the Amish, the Mennonites. They come 753 01:12:16.119 --> 01:12:23.039 from the Radical Reformers. And it's true that the Amish and Mennonites and hutter 754 01:12:23.119 --> 01:12:26.920 Rights are not the big group out there, right, they're small groups. 755 01:12:28.000 --> 01:12:31.439 Quakers Shakers, right, I think there's like three people left of the Shakers. 756 01:12:31.479 --> 01:12:35.960 Literally, there's only three Shakers left from the historic Shaker community, which 757 01:12:36.000 --> 01:12:43.319 is like some lunatic split of Quakers. But even President you know, Richard 758 01:12:43.359 --> 01:12:45.439 Nixon from you know, we grew up as a Quaker, the Quaker oats 759 01:12:45.479 --> 01:12:56.640 guy. I think Cadbury Cadbury Chocolates in England is also a Quaker company. 760 01:12:57.319 --> 01:12:59.239 So how is it then? How can I, Jay, how could you 761 01:12:59.279 --> 01:13:03.920 say that the Radical Reformation is really dominant today because the theology of the Radical 762 01:13:03.960 --> 01:13:10.119 Reformation. Let's look at some of the commonalities that Now, this is a 763 01:13:10.159 --> 01:13:13.159 bunch of wacky groups, right, so keep that in mind. But what 764 01:13:13.159 --> 01:13:18.039 are some of the commonalities amongst the wacky groups of the Radical Reformation. We'll 765 01:13:18.039 --> 01:13:24.640 take a look. So the Radical Reformers were like, hey, wait a 766 01:13:24.680 --> 01:13:30.880 minute, of course we don't like Rome, right, we don't like the 767 01:13:30.880 --> 01:13:33.800 papacy. That's a big Antichrist institution. I can't get Oxford to pull up. 768 01:13:33.800 --> 01:13:42.560 So we're just gonna use Wikipedia just for the overall view here. We 769 01:13:42.600 --> 01:13:45.079 don't like the pope, but you know what, Martin Luther's got a lot 770 01:13:45.079 --> 01:13:50.880 of papal baggage, doesn't he know? He's got images and he thinks there's 771 01:13:50.920 --> 01:13:57.520 sacraments, there's baptismal regeneration, and there's luther like some traditions, and he 772 01:13:57.640 --> 01:14:03.800 just didn't go far enough because Luther thought that there was like dogmas and tradition. 773 01:14:03.960 --> 01:14:10.960 Still, Luther didn't understand that the real Christianity is the inner light and 774 01:14:11.079 --> 01:14:19.800 move of the Holy Spirit. That's charismaticism. Luther didn't understand that what we 775 01:14:19.880 --> 01:14:33.439 need is a communal type of living. That's Thomas Munzer and communism. And 776 01:14:33.520 --> 01:14:39.840 Luther didn't understand that we don't need tradition, we need the Bible alone and 777 01:14:39.920 --> 01:14:43.359 a personal relationship with Jesus. That really doesn't have much to do with the 778 01:14:43.399 --> 01:14:48.199 church at all. The church is goin optional that's Baptists and Southern Baptists, 779 01:14:49.239 --> 01:14:56.800 and out of Southern Baptists Campbellites, Church of Christ, non the nominational churches 780 01:14:56.840 --> 01:15:06.199 megachurches. The dominant type of Christianity in America. Is this quasi gnostic and 781 01:15:06.359 --> 01:15:13.800 a baptist Ish radical Reformation theology. Let's look at some more commonalities. Many 782 01:15:13.880 --> 01:15:19.039 of the early forms of the Rackal Reformation were millennarian so Akilleism, pre millennialism, 783 01:15:21.840 --> 01:15:25.600 even though there was a few early church fathers who might have, as 784 01:15:25.600 --> 01:15:29.359 debated, might have had a pre millennial or a millennialist type of view. 785 01:15:29.920 --> 01:15:35.920 Doesn't matter the cost. Anthon umble One in three eighty one excludes all forms 786 01:15:35.920 --> 01:15:41.000 of millennialism. When the Creed says whose kingdom shall have no end? That 787 01:15:41.079 --> 01:15:46.560 is intended to exclude the millennialists, the millennarians, the Achilleis. But most 788 01:15:46.560 --> 01:15:53.079 of the Protestants and Evangelicals in America, their dispensationalists, their pre millennialists, 789 01:15:53.119 --> 01:15:59.359 et cetera. So radical Reformation theology makes it comeback. What else did they 790 01:15:59.359 --> 01:16:06.600 believe? Many of these groups believed in biblical literalism, others believed in quote 791 01:16:06.640 --> 01:16:12.000 spiritualism, and some of those groups even said that you don't need the scriptures 792 01:16:12.039 --> 01:16:15.600 at all, You need the direct move of the Holy Spirit, which might 793 01:16:15.640 --> 01:16:19.880 be manifestations of shaking, It might be manifestations of gibberish, it might be 794 01:16:19.920 --> 01:16:24.119 manifestations of you think God's talking to you and telling you what to do. 795 01:16:28.079 --> 01:16:38.640 Wait a minute, that sounds like the majority of Evangelicalism exactly, the non 796 01:16:38.720 --> 01:16:44.239 Anabaptist radical reformers. These are also very important because they relate very closely to 797 01:16:44.680 --> 01:16:49.399 the topic today. Though most of the radical Reformers were Anabaptists, some of 798 01:16:49.439 --> 01:16:54.880 them were not. Munzer, for example, was involved in the German Peasants 799 01:16:54.920 --> 01:16:59.279 War, so even though he was a proto Communist, the Thomas Munzer Rebellion 800 01:17:00.039 --> 01:17:04.680 resulted in the idea that you could fight in battles and stuff. Uh andres 801 01:17:04.760 --> 01:17:15.239 Karlstaw disagreed theologically with Zwingley and Luther teaching non violence and refusing infant baptism. 802 01:17:15.479 --> 01:17:18.920 So this is where we get Luther, by the way, who says Zwingley 803 01:17:18.960 --> 01:17:25.000 should be put to death and that the the Baptists and ana Baptists who wouldn't 804 01:17:25.439 --> 01:17:28.359 baptized children should be put to death. So keep that in mind. These 805 01:17:28.399 --> 01:17:34.319 were considered death worthy disagreements at that time. And remember that because Protestants are 806 01:17:34.319 --> 01:17:41.079 always saying there's a loose, lowest common denominator idea of what a Protestant is. 807 01:17:41.439 --> 01:17:45.680 We all believe in the Bible, we all believe in baptism, used 808 01:17:45.720 --> 01:17:50.640 to kill each other over baptism of infants. What are you talking about and 809 01:17:50.720 --> 01:17:57.000 you don't there's no common It's all a bunch of lunatics. And by the 810 01:17:57.119 --> 01:18:00.680 by the way, just because there's some commonalities doesn't mean there's one group. 811 01:18:01.800 --> 01:18:05.039 Remember how the remember the move that Bryson did the Bryson debate where you tried 812 01:18:05.039 --> 01:18:11.039 to play this trick. Any group, loosely speaking, that had a judaizing 813 01:18:11.079 --> 01:18:15.119 tendency was the group that Bryson's in communion with. That's not a single group, 814 01:18:15.159 --> 01:18:19.159 dude, That's a bunch of different, disconnected sex all over the place. 815 01:18:19.920 --> 01:18:26.840 I'm with them, I'm with Dan, that's my group. Come on, 816 01:18:26.920 --> 01:18:32.000 dude. Now here's the key point with the dissenters, the English Reformation, 817 01:18:32.079 --> 01:18:38.319 rodic Co Reformation, the English dissenters, these people, Quakers and others, 818 01:18:38.880 --> 01:18:51.000 George Fox, Roger Williams. What's their key point. Well, we 819 01:18:51.039 --> 01:18:57.439 can understand why they might think this. They're getting persecuted by the Presbyterian theocracy 820 01:18:57.479 --> 01:19:01.880 of Calvin. They get persecuted by Martin Luther and his German princes get drowned 821 01:19:01.880 --> 01:19:05.560 because they won't baptize their infants, they get person by perscued by the Roman 822 01:19:05.600 --> 01:19:13.039 Catholics, because Roman Catholics just say they're idiotic heretics. And it's not necessarily 823 01:19:13.039 --> 01:19:18.000 the churches they are doing. It's the German state, the theocracy of Calvin, 824 01:19:18.319 --> 01:19:25.760 the state, and the Catholic kings. So guess what their theology is. 825 01:19:26.760 --> 01:19:30.399 The Antichrist is the state. God has nothing to do with the state, 826 01:19:30.479 --> 01:19:33.920 because how could God be the state or have a role in the state 827 01:19:33.960 --> 01:19:38.359 when the state keeps persecuting us And we're the true keepers of the true flame, 828 01:19:38.479 --> 01:19:43.319 We're the true Christians, the true pious people. But notice what's happening 829 01:19:43.359 --> 01:19:48.319 with the Christianity of these idiotic radical reformers is it's having nothing to do with 830 01:19:48.439 --> 01:19:58.000 history. Remember Paul Washer literally saying, Chay, I'm coming to believe the 831 01:19:58.159 --> 01:20:04.960 Radical Reformation the Anabaptist were correct all alone. It was a blackout Jay, 832 01:20:05.479 --> 01:20:12.079 the church was blacked out. Give me money for hard privasions, right, 833 01:20:12.560 --> 01:20:19.880 literally saying that he believes Anabaptist blackout theory. The piety signalers, of all 834 01:20:19.920 --> 01:20:28.039 piety signalers, the Anabaptists persecuted by the state. And what do we get. 835 01:20:28.039 --> 01:20:32.159 We get Roger Williams saying that the state is anti God, the state 836 01:20:32.279 --> 01:20:47.479 is Antichrist. Interestingly, the Anabaptist theology of the state as against God and 837 01:20:47.720 --> 01:20:57.720 kind of Antichrist. This is synonymous with kind of a lot of Americanist ideas, 838 01:20:58.000 --> 01:21:04.439 isn't it. So for example, I have mentioned this many many times, 839 01:21:04.520 --> 01:21:08.399 you guys. I won't say who, but some years ago in twenty 840 01:21:08.720 --> 01:21:13.520 seventeen eighteen, I met an Oca priest and we had a long exchange, 841 01:21:13.560 --> 01:21:17.720 a pretty heated argument, and he had the same ideas as Roger Williams that 842 01:21:17.800 --> 01:21:20.560 God has nothing to do with the state. It's basically an Antichrist institution. 843 01:21:20.800 --> 01:21:27.600 Like so you say, Roger Williams is Orthodox. This is crazy, And 844 01:21:27.680 --> 01:21:31.159 how contrary to the entire history of the Orthodox Church? Is this just completely 845 01:21:31.279 --> 01:21:34.039 night and day? It was like the Seventh Documentical Council, the entire Businessine 846 01:21:34.039 --> 01:21:39.520 Empire. And my point is not to say that all of the Byzantine emperors 847 01:21:39.520 --> 01:21:42.760 were saints, and no, no, I'm not saying that. Obviously it 848 01:21:42.840 --> 01:21:48.159 fell like there was corruption, right, But the point is that how could 849 01:21:48.239 --> 01:21:53.880 you think that Munzer not Muonster. I'm sorry, because Mouncher fought in the 850 01:21:53.920 --> 01:21:58.279 Peasant War. But how could you think that George Fox and Roger Williams and 851 01:21:58.479 --> 01:22:04.279 that that is what orthodox Christianity teaches. So what happens is a lot of 852 01:22:04.319 --> 01:22:12.520 times in America, especially priests, people are trained up and their american Ism 853 01:22:13.199 --> 01:22:16.800 comes first. So they're doing the same mistake, making the same move, 854 01:22:16.920 --> 01:22:21.319 the same mistake in my view, that people who would say Christ is King 855 01:22:21.399 --> 01:22:30.079 make by thinking that the political comes first and turning Christ into like a bays 856 01:22:30.119 --> 01:22:33.600 tried political thing. That's not what it is. That's an effect of authentic 857 01:22:33.680 --> 01:22:40.760 Christianity, but it's not first and foremost. That's down the road. You 858 01:22:40.800 --> 01:22:46.279 see what I'm saying. If you think of it as first and foremost a 859 01:22:46.319 --> 01:22:51.319 political thing, as soon as you begin to fail in the political domain, 860 01:22:51.399 --> 01:22:56.119 now Jesus is well, he doesn't have anything to do with this. You 861 01:22:56.159 --> 01:23:00.800 see, you would be led to the logic of Roger Williams. And neither 862 01:23:00.800 --> 01:23:05.239 of these positions is correct. Neither Roger Williams nor the idea that Jesus is 863 01:23:05.319 --> 01:23:12.800 like my political banner that I'm going to enact the base and trad political party 864 01:23:12.880 --> 01:23:17.880 stuff with. This is the very move that the Pope made erroneously a thousand 865 01:23:17.920 --> 01:23:25.479 years ago to turn the papacy into a geopolitical state organization. That's the mistake. 866 01:23:26.479 --> 01:23:30.640 And saying that the mistake of the papacy to become a geopolitical power organization 867 01:23:31.720 --> 01:23:36.760 is not solved by saying that Orthodox need to be Americanists and reject the Christian 868 01:23:36.800 --> 01:23:41.199 state. That's the opposite error, the very error that the priests I'm talking 869 01:23:41.239 --> 01:23:58.960 about made. So hopefully that's clear. Hopefully go to see that, right. 870 01:23:59.039 --> 01:24:00.560 I think we got to abou almost nine hundred. So we got people 871 01:24:00.640 --> 01:24:03.119 kind of popping in and out, I guess, and we're going to open 872 01:24:03.119 --> 01:24:09.920 it up for people to discuss. Now there's even when I support the show, 873 01:24:09.960 --> 01:24:12.319 you can do somebody super chats there. Now, there's a lot of 874 01:24:13.000 --> 01:24:16.720 specifics that there's not easy, you know, direct answers to in terms of 875 01:24:16.720 --> 01:24:19.720 these questions, Like somebody will always say, well, what is the limits 876 01:24:19.720 --> 01:24:24.439 of the state. There's never gonna be some like one size fits all answer 877 01:24:24.479 --> 01:24:29.079 to this. History is diverse. You're going to have places and times in 878 01:24:29.159 --> 01:24:32.880 history when the state has less power, the state has more power. My 879 01:24:33.000 --> 01:24:38.560 personal view, I would like to see the state have less power. That 880 01:24:38.600 --> 01:24:41.479 does not make me a libertarian. Now we got to talk about libertarianism, 881 01:24:41.520 --> 01:24:48.199 because this is the next mistake that people make in this domain, where their 882 01:24:48.239 --> 01:24:55.079 assumption is that the Enlightenment was like the high point of all of civilization. 883 01:24:56.239 --> 01:24:58.760 And in my view, again, I see the Enlightenment kind of like the 884 01:24:58.840 --> 01:25:04.239 Reformation, where you've got a reaction against papal problems, as the Reformation was, 885 01:25:04.920 --> 01:25:10.239 but the reaction is also a problem, right, And everybody's always falling 886 01:25:10.239 --> 01:25:11.920 into either words. Right, Well, if the papers is bad, then 887 01:25:11.960 --> 01:25:14.439 I guess the Reformers were good. Papers is bad. The Masons must be 888 01:25:14.479 --> 01:25:15.880 good. Or you can have two people that are bad. You can have 889 01:25:15.920 --> 01:25:19.840 two wrong sides. Okay, people can't figure this out, like most people 890 01:25:19.920 --> 01:25:25.880 just default to thinking that somebody's right, somebody wrong, the guy bad guy, 891 01:25:26.199 --> 01:25:30.439 black life. You can have five people arguing something and they're all wrong 892 01:25:32.960 --> 01:25:39.399 obviously, right, isn't that possible? Sure? If you ever heard five 893 01:25:39.479 --> 01:25:43.119 pundits on a Twitter space all being idiots, all being wrong, of course, 894 01:25:43.479 --> 01:25:47.600 right. So just because there's extremes in the papacy in the Middle Ages 895 01:25:48.880 --> 01:26:00.479 doesn't make the Reformation response automatically correct. Obviously, Perhaps both sides have right, 896 01:26:00.600 --> 01:26:04.600 Perhaps both sides have things wrong, but maybe not. In some cases 897 01:26:04.600 --> 01:26:09.840 there might be a party that has everything correct. Loosely speaking, right, 898 01:26:15.199 --> 01:26:21.760 It's just not an easy either or, is what I'm trying to say now 899 01:26:26.039 --> 01:26:30.960 in regard again to moving back to the papacy position. Because remember, as 900 01:26:30.000 --> 01:26:34.800 the Reformation progresses, as the Radical Reformation happens, you get these mixes. 901 01:26:34.920 --> 01:26:40.600 You get, you know, Europe kind of being split Protestant, you get 902 01:26:40.600 --> 01:26:45.279 the years of the wars in Europe over religion, thirty years of War, 903 01:26:45.319 --> 01:26:48.680 etc. You get, and I read entire books on those many years ago. 904 01:26:48.680 --> 01:26:51.159 I've forgotten a lot of it in my history classes, but I read 905 01:26:51.159 --> 01:26:56.359 a whole book on thirty years War, which all fascinating and ties into all 906 01:26:56.359 --> 01:27:03.680 this. You've got people who reject the Anabaptist stuff and the Protestant stuff and 907 01:27:03.760 --> 01:27:06.560 the Catholic stuff, and they start getting into Hermeticism. So you can start 908 01:27:06.600 --> 01:27:11.199 to get the rise of Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism. So I remember, there's this 909 01:27:11.319 --> 01:27:15.600 cauldron. You've got the atheist Enlightenment people. You've got a cauldron of interests 910 01:27:15.880 --> 01:27:21.600 here. It's all mixing and bubbling over and battling. And so what the 911 01:27:21.680 --> 01:27:27.640 Roman Church does in response, which is understandable, and I think as Orthodox 912 01:27:27.680 --> 01:27:30.000 we actually agree with a lot of the basics here. So if you read 913 01:27:30.039 --> 01:27:33.560 this book that I'm always recommending the popes against the modern errors. A lot 914 01:27:33.560 --> 01:27:41.880 of the basic principles that they call out, critiquing the Protestant and Enlightenment presuppositions 915 01:27:43.359 --> 01:27:48.079 is all covered in this document. Sixteen papal documents from about seventeen hundred up 916 01:27:48.119 --> 01:27:53.560 to I think there's some Pious the eleventh in there, so it ends with 917 01:27:53.600 --> 01:27:56.680 some of the Pie's eleventh. So I think I read it twice, but 918 01:27:56.720 --> 01:28:00.279 I read it twice, like fifteen years ago. It used to be book 919 01:28:00.279 --> 01:28:02.439 I would give out when I was a tradcat And the reason I give this 920 01:28:02.439 --> 01:28:09.279 out is that it's so clear and to the point contrasted with Vatican two. 921 01:28:09.520 --> 01:28:15.880 Okay, So if you want one book that really contrasts the essential contradictions between 922 01:28:15.119 --> 01:28:19.079 the documents of Vatican two and the pre papal teaching, it's this book right 923 01:28:19.119 --> 01:28:26.239 here from Ten Books, classic famous traditional Catholic publisher. Every Catholic knows who 924 01:28:26.239 --> 01:28:32.880 ten Books is. So the sixteen documents here don't just call out the idea 925 01:28:33.000 --> 01:28:44.239 of modernism, liberalism, Freemasonry, I think is included in their humani generis 926 01:28:44.880 --> 01:28:46.680 or humano genus excuse me, of thee other thirteenth I think that's in there. 927 01:28:47.079 --> 01:28:50.199 But by the way, there's actually like ten and then're like ten incyclicals 928 01:28:50.239 --> 01:28:55.680 going back to the seventeen hundreds, Pope Clement calling out and rejecting Freemasonry. 929 01:28:55.960 --> 01:28:58.760 The first, I think is from Pope Clement, and there's a whole series 930 01:28:58.800 --> 01:29:02.079 of these all the way up to again famous en cyclicals like Murari Voss of 931 01:29:02.079 --> 01:29:09.600 Gregory the sixteenth in eighteen thirty two, and liberalism and religious and differentism here. 932 01:29:09.680 --> 01:29:14.159 This is one of the earliest call outs of the what we might call 933 01:29:14.199 --> 01:29:17.640 the proto a humanist idea. So, even though Acumenism is not an organized 934 01:29:17.680 --> 01:29:23.000 movement yet, in the eighteen thirties you kind of have the predecessors to it 935 01:29:23.079 --> 01:29:30.760 with things like Freemasonry, things like Protestantism. Branch theory already exists, and 936 01:29:30.800 --> 01:29:34.520 in the eighteen thirties the papacy was very adamant to oppose these things and call 937 01:29:34.600 --> 01:29:40.239 them out. Now, this is in the minds of the popes in these 938 01:29:40.359 --> 01:29:47.359 documents, fully expressing the universal Catholic tradition. So even though there's not a 939 01:29:47.399 --> 01:29:51.039 statement at the beginning of these documents that says this shows an extrica, theaters 940 01:29:51.079 --> 01:29:56.319 to eatement were proclaimed as for the whole church from the Tipeter. It doesn't 941 01:29:56.319 --> 01:30:03.479 really have to because it's papal teaching, pressing what is the universal teaching to 942 01:30:03.560 --> 01:30:10.640 condemn errors, and the errors condemned are all the things that you would expect 943 01:30:11.000 --> 01:30:17.199 religious liberty, freedom of worship, total freedom of conscience, modernism and so 944 01:30:17.279 --> 01:30:26.680 forth. And what's called indifferentism here, which is the idea connected the liberty 945 01:30:26.680 --> 01:30:30.920 of conscience that you can be saved in all kinds of different paths and churches 946 01:30:30.960 --> 01:30:36.720 and groups. Now he's not even talking about salvation and false religions. He's 947 01:30:36.760 --> 01:30:43.600 talking about salvation and various branches of the church and amongst schismatic groups, so 948 01:30:43.680 --> 01:30:48.680 branch theory. He talks about liberty of conscience, He talks about freedom of 949 01:30:48.720 --> 01:30:57.039 the press. So you understand that the papacy in eighteen thirty two, going 950 01:30:57.079 --> 01:31:02.199 back to citing Climent the thirteen about the of heterodox books, the Holy Office, 951 01:31:02.520 --> 01:31:11.960 banning Masonic texts and so forth, attacking the idea that the public must 952 01:31:12.000 --> 01:31:20.000 submit to submit to kings and princes. So it's a monarchical text. God 953 01:31:20.000 --> 01:31:28.119 has established the monarchical rule. Now, this is just one of sixteen papal 954 01:31:28.199 --> 01:31:31.680 documents that specifically condemn all the errors that we're talking about. Now as we 955 01:31:31.760 --> 01:31:34.880 get down, what is the key error that he wants to highlight towards the 956 01:31:34.960 --> 01:31:43.159 end of the document the separation of church and state identified by the pope here 957 01:31:43.199 --> 01:31:50.319 as a heresy. What is Digna taught us humani about the separation of church 958 01:31:50.359 --> 01:31:59.039 and state? The de catholicizing of Christian states. This is Vatican two document 959 01:31:59.119 --> 01:32:01.319 for those who don't know, Tween sixty five Paul the six and of course 960 01:32:01.319 --> 01:32:05.479 it has been reiterated by all the posts Vatican two popes that no longer needs 961 01:32:05.479 --> 01:32:12.439 to be Christian and Catholic states because it's not good for pluralism. This is 962 01:32:12.479 --> 01:32:16.800 why John Courtney Murray was so important at Vatican two in terms of his Jesuit 963 01:32:16.880 --> 01:32:20.039 theology, was that he was a big promoter as well as I think Maritane 964 01:32:20.119 --> 01:32:28.359 Jacques Manartaine of religious pluralism and that modern states and societies needed to adopt religious 965 01:32:28.359 --> 01:32:33.720 pluralism. Does does it at all sound like Maurari Voss of eighteen thirty two 966 01:32:33.760 --> 01:32:38.840 and Pope Benedict Or excusing Pope Gregory the sixteenth. Does this as all sound 967 01:32:38.960 --> 01:32:45.880 like pluralism to you, to condemn the separation of church and state as a 968 01:32:45.960 --> 01:32:58.079 heresy? Yeah, if you've never read these, if you're a Roman Catholic, 969 01:32:58.840 --> 01:33:08.800 it's time to start reading some these, bro. So that's Mauri Voss 970 01:33:08.840 --> 01:33:12.199 as one example. Now keep in mind this is not a one off. 971 01:33:12.880 --> 01:33:18.680 Okay, Popes against the Modern Errors has sixteen papal documents just like this, 972 01:33:18.800 --> 01:33:24.960 including some of the documents that are attached to Vatican One, like the Syllabus 973 01:33:24.960 --> 01:33:27.640 of Errors, if I recall, so, let's look at the Syllabus of 974 01:33:27.760 --> 01:33:36.000 Errors. Quantic Cura. Quantic Curra is the encyclical of Pope Pious the ninth 975 01:33:36.039 --> 01:33:42.760 of the Pope a Vatican one, and the Trads will argue that this is 976 01:33:42.840 --> 01:33:49.079 part of Vatican One. I'm sure Novasorto Catholics don't even care. But I 977 01:33:49.079 --> 01:33:51.720 think the Trads are correct on this. I think it is intended to be 978 01:33:53.159 --> 01:33:57.199 part of Vatican I mean it's the pope condemning ideas that are heterodox. So 979 01:33:58.000 --> 01:34:00.640 I mean, surely the Pope knows right, shouldn't he know, I mean, 980 01:34:00.640 --> 01:34:02.960 it's the popa Vatican. One wouldn't pie us the ninth. No, 981 01:34:05.479 --> 01:34:09.159 let's look at some of the errors that are condemned. We're going to start 982 01:34:09.199 --> 01:34:12.800 down at the bottom, because it gets really spicy towards the end, errors 983 01:34:12.800 --> 01:34:15.479 concerning modern liberalism. And in every one of the errors he actually mentions other 984 01:34:15.520 --> 01:34:20.760 papal documents to show that it's in concord with previous people teaching and his own 985 01:34:20.800 --> 01:34:28.199 people teaching. It is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held 986 01:34:28.239 --> 01:34:30.319 as the religion of the state to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. 987 01:34:30.520 --> 01:34:38.119 Condemned. There you go, right there, condemned. It has been 988 01:34:38.119 --> 01:34:44.640 wisely decided by law that in Catholic countries people should be able to retain their 989 01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:48.359 own particular types of worship. Condemned. These are condemned propositions. You understand 990 01:34:48.399 --> 01:34:50.399 that. I mean, I know there's a lot of slow people in the 991 01:34:50.439 --> 01:34:54.960 audies, but slow boys, these are condemned. Probably he's not teaching this. 992 01:34:54.960 --> 01:34:59.439 This is the condemned propeetition proposition. Moreover, it is false that every 993 01:34:59.439 --> 01:35:04.359 civil liberty of every form worship given all and overtly of all publicly manifesting any 994 01:35:04.479 --> 01:35:11.279 opinions whatsoever. Total freedom of thought and to the propagation of indifferentism condemned. 995 01:35:13.119 --> 01:35:17.079 Total freedom of pressed. The Pope should reconcile himself with progress, liberalism and 996 01:35:17.159 --> 01:35:26.039 modernism condemned. Now everything that is condemned, it's the very thing that the 997 01:35:26.079 --> 01:35:32.239 post vaticancvabacy has done. Let's see errors concerning natural ethics, Christian ethics. 998 01:35:33.359 --> 01:35:43.039 Moral laws do not come from God, they're atheistic. Science and philosophy are 999 01:35:43.319 --> 01:35:47.319 immune to the divine authority, and the Church authority condemned. So again all 1000 01:35:47.359 --> 01:35:51.640 these kind of relate, that kind of go together. Right, Authority is 1001 01:35:51.680 --> 01:35:56.760 nothing but the sum total of material forces. So authority coming from the people 1002 01:35:56.840 --> 01:36:02.279 up. That is not a top down thing from God. Rights just exist 1003 01:36:02.359 --> 01:36:10.600 in material facts. There's no rights in duties beyond material facts. So let's 1004 01:36:10.600 --> 01:36:15.560 see errors about marriage. This talks about divorce. But I want to get 1005 01:36:15.600 --> 01:36:27.199 over here to the state as the origin source of all rights is not subscribed, 1006 01:36:27.239 --> 01:36:32.720 ascribed by any limits condemned. So you can't have statism without the role 1007 01:36:32.760 --> 01:36:38.920 of the divine authority of the Church. The teaching of the Catholic Church is 1008 01:36:39.000 --> 01:36:45.560 hostile to social order. Condemned. The civil government, even if it's run 1009 01:36:45.600 --> 01:36:49.840 by an infidel, has a right to indirect negative power over the church. 1010 01:36:51.960 --> 01:37:00.720 Condemned. In the case of a conflicting challenge of law between the two powers 1011 01:37:00.720 --> 01:37:06.159 of church and state, the state prevails condemned. The state has authority to 1012 01:37:06.199 --> 01:37:15.720 shut down and tell the church what they do. Condemned. The state can 1013 01:37:16.000 --> 01:37:25.920 interfere in the administration of the sacraments condemned. State can make decisions about religious 1014 01:37:25.920 --> 01:37:33.159 seminaries condemned. The best theory of civil society is one which is completely open 1015 01:37:33.239 --> 01:37:39.159 and free from all ecclesiastical authority. In other words, a complete separation of 1016 01:37:39.199 --> 01:37:45.520 church and state. Condemned by the way, that's Americanism. Catholics can approve 1017 01:37:45.560 --> 01:37:53.960 of the system of education that is without the religious Catholic faith condemned, so 1018 01:37:54.079 --> 01:38:02.920 state schools condemned. The civil power may prove the bishops of the church from 1019 01:38:03.119 --> 01:38:12.640 speaking to and communicating with the Bishop of Rome. Condemned. Laity and state 1020 01:38:12.760 --> 01:38:21.840 civil people is talking about possess the right presenting the bishops condemned. Laity can 1021 01:38:21.880 --> 01:38:30.600 depose bishops condemned. Government can, by its own right alter the age prescribed 1022 01:38:30.640 --> 01:38:33.880 by the Church of the religious professional men and women. So another one about 1023 01:38:33.880 --> 01:38:38.760 taking vowels and when you're a Christian and stepping into the fairs of the church. 1024 01:38:38.800 --> 01:38:41.399 Anyways, on and on and on. Right, kings and princes are 1025 01:38:41.399 --> 01:38:46.319 exempted from the Church condemned. Church must be separated from the from the state, 1026 01:38:46.359 --> 01:38:54.520 and the state from the Church condemned. So does this sound like the 1027 01:38:54.600 --> 01:39:02.279 same teachings Vatican two is dignetatis himane the Declaration on total religious freedom, no 1028 01:39:14.560 --> 01:39:25.439 independence of church and state. So the very thing condemned is the very thing 1029 01:39:26.720 --> 01:39:34.840 said to be the teaching of the Church in Christ indignitatis himani. So this 1030 01:39:34.920 --> 01:39:43.319 is essentially a surrendering of between Murri Voss and Lamentabili and the other sixteen papal 1031 01:39:43.359 --> 01:39:46.760 documents up to the time of Vatican two. And here's the irony is that 1032 01:39:47.239 --> 01:39:57.399 nobody has mentioned quas primus except a few treads, I'm sure. So as 1033 01:39:57.479 --> 01:40:08.239 late as nineteen twenty five, get this, As late as nineteen twenty five, 1034 01:40:11.000 --> 01:40:18.239 the papacy instituted a feast called Christ the King. Every tried Catholic knows 1035 01:40:18.279 --> 01:40:28.319 about Christ the King Qua's primus. And this was intended to prop up the 1036 01:40:28.359 --> 01:40:32.600 traditional teaching that the state cannot be separate from the church, the Church can 1037 01:40:32.680 --> 01:40:39.760 be separated from the state, that you can't make a atheistic, independent state 1038 01:40:40.840 --> 01:40:49.039 separate from the Church if you're a Christian and a Catholic. So as late 1039 01:40:49.079 --> 01:40:55.119 as nineteen twenty five piously eleven, that was still upholding the things that we 1040 01:40:55.199 --> 01:41:08.079 just saw in mariarri Voss and the lamentabili Syllabus sabers. Now Feast of Christ 1041 01:41:08.159 --> 01:41:12.600 the King is nineteen twenty five, So it only took from nineteen twenty five 1042 01:41:12.760 --> 01:41:18.319 to nineteen what year is nineteen sixty five, okay, twenty five to sist 1043 01:41:18.399 --> 01:41:26.439 for forty years. So imagine we're supposed to believe that the Holy Spirit is 1044 01:41:26.479 --> 01:41:33.560 guiding the Roman Caolic Church, but between nineteen twenty five and nineteen sixty five. 1045 01:41:35.720 --> 01:41:42.920 In nineteen twenty five, the Holy Spirit wants Christian Catholic states. But 1046 01:41:42.960 --> 01:41:46.600 by nineteen sixty five that should be done away with, And that's not a 1047 01:41:46.600 --> 01:41:51.640 contradiction, even though the nineteen sixty five position is called a demonic delusion and 1048 01:41:51.720 --> 01:42:01.880 condemned. So now I know that there's a million Catholic copes for this I 1049 01:42:01.960 --> 01:42:05.439 made all those same copes. I tried for many, many years to make 1050 01:42:05.520 --> 01:42:10.880 this work. But if you're a Protestant, your senters, ah huh, 1051 01:42:10.880 --> 01:42:12.880 I like it, Jay, I like what you're saying. Yeah, downward 1052 01:42:12.960 --> 01:42:16.560 them papers, get rid of them babies. Man, Yeah, that's w 1053 01:42:16.680 --> 01:42:23.880 I'm done. Bat Wait a minute. As a Protestant, who are you 1054 01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:27.960 going to look to what's your teaching? You're not in any better position. 1055 01:42:29.000 --> 01:42:32.279 In fact, you're in a worse position because we at least agree with the 1056 01:42:32.319 --> 01:42:38.880 basic traditional Roman Catholic teaching as Orthodox traditionally, my Orthodox that aren't just worshipers 1057 01:42:38.880 --> 01:42:45.199 of the American Deep State or of the State Department like the EP and marching 1058 01:42:45.279 --> 01:42:48.760 to the tune of whatever the State Department says. I mean, they basically 1059 01:42:48.840 --> 01:43:00.039 are a state church. They're the state church of the State Department. So 1060 01:43:02.880 --> 01:43:09.920 how are you, as a Protestant in a better position, Because as a 1061 01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:14.760 Protestant, you don't really have any clear way to deal with this. And 1062 01:43:14.800 --> 01:43:18.119 if you look at the history of the Protestant nations, they were miserable failures. 1063 01:43:18.479 --> 01:43:23.239 I'm not talking about monetary failures, so I'm not making a Roman Catholic 1064 01:43:23.319 --> 01:43:25.840 argument of like we've got more money and we've got more numbers, so we 1065 01:43:25.880 --> 01:43:30.119 win. You know, the relationship between church and state in the Protestant nations 1066 01:43:30.199 --> 01:43:36.520 failed. Why because as soon as the state became the sort of arbiter and 1067 01:43:36.560 --> 01:43:44.439 adjudicator of the church. Because the early Protestant Reformation was Erastian or Cicero papist, 1068 01:43:45.880 --> 01:43:48.760 there was always going to be this struggle between the two. And ultimately 1069 01:43:48.840 --> 01:43:54.920 you can go back to dignititus dictatus pope. That's a struggle between church and 1070 01:43:54.920 --> 01:43:57.800 state, where the pope just says, I'm the state and the church. 1071 01:43:58.439 --> 01:44:03.119 It's a single headed eagle, and now I'm both heads and one. But 1072 01:44:03.159 --> 01:44:12.800 the Byzantine double headed eagle is the classic Byzantine symbol, which expresses the Orthodox 1073 01:44:12.920 --> 01:44:17.199 view, not saying that it's always been done right, but expresses the Orthodox 1074 01:44:17.319 --> 01:44:29.600 view of two spheres that operate in their own boundaries, that ideally work in 1075 01:44:29.640 --> 01:44:39.039 harmony and symphonia. Symphonia is the meaning of the Orthodox view. That's the 1076 01:44:39.119 --> 01:44:42.199 term that signifies the meaning of the Orthodox view of church and state. Ideally, 1077 01:44:44.600 --> 01:44:46.960 it's the idea here is that when we have a majority of Christian society, 1078 01:44:47.239 --> 01:44:53.560 the ruler will be operating on Christian principles in his sphere. So that 1079 01:44:53.640 --> 01:45:00.840 means that he will be able to determine punishments for evildoers. He will be 1080 01:45:00.880 --> 01:45:04.239 able to have a role like almost like a deacon. If you remember, 1081 01:45:04.239 --> 01:45:10.079 in the businessing Empire, the emperor could go behind the Iconostasius. He was, 1082 01:45:10.479 --> 01:45:18.680 he was considered a type of deacon. But he cannot tell the church 1083 01:45:18.720 --> 01:45:25.159 what to do. He can't change the church, and emperors that tried to 1084 01:45:25.159 --> 01:45:30.279 do that ended up excommunicated Aryan emperors, Iconic class emperors. If the Orthodox 1085 01:45:30.399 --> 01:45:34.000 Church was run by emperors, they would have turned it into all kinds of 1086 01:45:34.000 --> 01:45:39.359 insane heresies. Right, it would have been Rian, it would have been 1087 01:45:39.520 --> 01:45:45.600 Iconoclass, or even worse, who knows. So it doesn't mean that the 1088 01:45:45.680 --> 01:45:53.119 ruler will always be faithful to his Christianity anymore than even Caesar as a diaconos 1089 01:45:53.560 --> 01:45:58.119 in a sense of the pagan Caesars. Right, they still had a role, 1090 01:45:58.880 --> 01:46:01.119 but they were still but they were wicked, and so it was right 1091 01:46:01.199 --> 01:46:05.399 to defy them at times. Okay, So it's not a worship of authority 1092 01:46:06.079 --> 01:46:09.079 if it's a worship of authority, which by the way, is what the 1093 01:46:09.079 --> 01:46:14.279 papal system is the whole papal system is based around the worship of human authority 1094 01:46:14.920 --> 01:46:23.119 and historical authority. No, at times it is right to oppose authority when 1095 01:46:23.159 --> 01:46:26.760 they go against the higher authority. So that's the principle. Even Aquinas says 1096 01:46:26.800 --> 01:46:30.560 this right, it's wrong. It's right at times to oppose both kings and 1097 01:46:30.640 --> 01:46:33.359 bishops when they overstep their authority. If you're, for example, you're a 1098 01:46:33.439 --> 01:46:38.239 lay person. If the bishop comes and says, give me your house, 1099 01:46:38.800 --> 01:46:41.560 you owe me your property, well no, he's stepping over He's not the 1100 01:46:41.640 --> 01:46:45.239 right to do that. The bishop can't tell you to give give me give 1101 01:46:45.359 --> 01:46:46.840 the church your property. I own it now I'm the bishop. You must 1102 01:46:46.880 --> 01:46:57.479 worship my authority. No, that's overstepping the boundaries. Likewise, kings can't 1103 01:46:57.520 --> 01:47:05.800 tell the church I mandate that you worship me as Christ. And it's no 1104 01:47:05.880 --> 01:47:11.520 longer the Trinity, it's now the Emperor is God right. The emperor can't 1105 01:47:11.520 --> 01:47:14.640 do that. He can try to do that, but he excommunicates himself in 1106 01:47:14.720 --> 01:47:18.399 doing that. And it is the duty and right of every Christian to oppose 1107 01:47:18.439 --> 01:47:21.880 them. Now, it doesn't mean that we oppose them by like taking up 1108 01:47:21.960 --> 01:47:28.439 arms. It means that we don't submit to those rulings in situations where, 1109 01:47:29.880 --> 01:47:31.319 you know, if the state comes and trusts to, you know, make 1110 01:47:31.399 --> 01:47:35.319 us martyrs, we have to be martyrs. And the only time that it 1111 01:47:35.399 --> 01:47:41.520 might be right to engage in self defense would be in situations where that's appropriate 1112 01:47:41.600 --> 01:47:46.720 to do. Okay, if somebody breaks into my house. Let's say, 1113 01:47:46.720 --> 01:47:51.199 a religious fanatic breaks into my house and I will kill your wife and children 1114 01:47:51.680 --> 01:47:58.239 for allah, Okay, and he's going to go, you know, r 1115 01:47:58.279 --> 01:48:00.920 ape or something. My wife is I have a duty to defend my family, 1116 01:48:04.439 --> 01:48:08.439 and in that case, there's a good chance that I could stop him 1117 01:48:08.439 --> 01:48:11.640 from doing that, right because it's one on one or something. Now, 1118 01:48:11.680 --> 01:48:18.800 if an entire brigade of I don't know, Saudi warriors show up at my 1119 01:48:18.920 --> 01:48:23.920 house, like America gets abated by Saudi's or something, I don't know, 1120 01:48:24.720 --> 01:48:30.640 and they say come outside and confess a lot, or we chop your heads 1121 01:48:30.640 --> 01:48:34.680 off, Okay, Obviously that's not a situation where it would be appropriate to 1122 01:48:34.720 --> 01:48:39.119 try to engage in self defense. It's not gonna work. That would clearly 1123 01:48:39.159 --> 01:48:45.840 be a providential call to martyrdom and not a providential call to self defense. 1124 01:48:46.359 --> 01:48:50.479 So you see how it's not always a one size fits all, black and 1125 01:48:50.479 --> 01:48:56.119 white answer to these types of questions, and so likewise, the relationship between 1126 01:48:56.159 --> 01:48:58.720 church and state might not always be black and white either. There's going to 1127 01:48:58.760 --> 01:49:01.319 be canon law, there's gonna be history, there's gonna be historical precedent, 1128 01:49:01.760 --> 01:49:08.039 there's gonna be a biblical theology that all plays into. Hopefully, we have 1129 01:49:08.239 --> 01:49:16.039 wise people, wise men who can navigate these things. A wise man like 1130 01:49:16.119 --> 01:49:21.760 Solomon is able to apply the right law and the right medicine at the right 1131 01:49:21.840 --> 01:49:30.239 time. And so it's not a spergatron thing where there's some ethereal infinite list 1132 01:49:30.319 --> 01:49:33.239 of the right and wrong things to do in every situation that doesn't exist. 1133 01:49:34.239 --> 01:49:36.359 And as you get older, you're gonna learn that. You're gonna figure that 1134 01:49:36.399 --> 01:49:45.880 out. Stop being such a spurg. We're gonna look at a few more 1135 01:49:45.920 --> 01:49:47.399 texts, by the way, that also point this out. And then I'm 1136 01:49:47.399 --> 01:49:51.479 gonna open it up to Q and A. I forgot to turn the Q 1137 01:49:51.560 --> 01:49:57.439 and A on, but they're not even I wonder if my space is still 1138 01:49:57.439 --> 01:50:02.720 there. Let's see, I don't know what I've never known what happens if 1139 01:50:02.760 --> 01:50:14.920 you like, forget your space or something that is still there. Let's see, 1140 01:50:15.680 --> 01:50:20.720 right, we'll try it all right, So I don't know if anybody's 1141 01:50:20.720 --> 01:50:30.640 going to show up or not, but noah M five dollars kind of republic 1142 01:50:30.680 --> 01:50:36.800 or classical liberal system of government such as American produce a virtuous society. I 1143 01:50:36.840 --> 01:50:43.159 mean it's hard to say, Like, I think that it's possible, plausible 1144 01:50:43.239 --> 01:50:46.960 perhaps, but you know, we don't have a whole lot of examples of 1145 01:50:47.000 --> 01:50:50.680 classical liberalism. I mean, we've only got Enlightenment upwards, and that's not 1146 01:50:50.840 --> 01:50:58.359 a huge number of countries. So it kind of depends on what you think 1147 01:50:58.479 --> 01:51:01.119 the goods of a society are. So you ask me, can it produce 1148 01:51:01.159 --> 01:51:05.920 a virtuous society? And how is a monarchy better? Well, what we 1149 01:51:05.960 --> 01:51:12.119 think the goods of a society are are going to partly determine how we pick 1150 01:51:12.159 --> 01:51:15.720 out successful and non successful societies. If we think of society as only successful 1151 01:51:15.720 --> 01:51:23.319 on the basis of monetary gain, financial security, trade, and so for, 1152 01:51:23.479 --> 01:51:28.359 then we'll think of sort of purely temporal things. But maybe that's not 1153 01:51:28.520 --> 01:51:34.359 the ultimate healthy good society. Maybe a society where vices are attempted to be 1154 01:51:34.439 --> 01:51:41.439 punished is better than a society that holds up monetary gain as the most important 1155 01:51:41.439 --> 01:51:46.119 thing, or luxury is the most important thing. I mean, maybe not. 1156 01:51:46.680 --> 01:51:50.039 Maybe you have some argument why it's not. I'm just saying that how 1157 01:51:50.079 --> 01:51:54.680 we judge a society as good or bad, or virtuous or non virtuous, 1158 01:51:54.760 --> 01:51:58.560 or more successful or less successful is based on our presuppositions about what we think 1159 01:51:58.600 --> 01:52:03.239 success is. Is it something purely inporral, purely monetary, or our societies 1160 01:52:03.239 --> 01:52:10.479 that also include religious and spiritual values, perhaps they're more successful. Again, 1161 01:52:10.600 --> 01:52:15.239 there's no self evident idea of what a successful society is. You see, 1162 01:52:15.800 --> 01:52:19.680 how is traditional monarchy any better? Well, the entire history of the world 1163 01:52:20.159 --> 01:52:26.760 until the Enlightenment was typically some form of monarchy, So there's something inherent to 1164 01:52:26.920 --> 01:52:33.199 that type of government, the type of rule that humans gravitated. Why is 1165 01:52:33.239 --> 01:52:41.960 it really a vast conspiracy of devious people who want to enslave everybody? Or 1166 01:52:42.000 --> 01:52:48.720 is there something natural to following virtuous, noble people. Maybe human beings follow 1167 01:52:49.840 --> 01:52:57.840 in a hierarchy noble virtuous human beings. And a lot of the Enlightenment is 1168 01:52:57.840 --> 01:53:04.880 based on a lot of ungrounded, unfounded assumptions and presuppositions, such as the 1169 01:53:04.960 --> 01:53:10.399 idea that everybody is in some sort of proto equality situation. We're all kind 1170 01:53:10.439 --> 01:53:24.399 of sort of potentially equal. No we're not. Now. I don't mean 1171 01:53:24.439 --> 01:53:28.319 by that that all the Enlightenment philosophers believed in egalitarianism, but I'm saying that 1172 01:53:28.560 --> 01:53:34.479 the beginnings of nascent egalitarianism pop up at this time. You get a more 1173 01:53:34.560 --> 01:53:40.560 radical version of this egalitarianism with the French Revolution. Liberty equality fraternity, right, 1174 01:53:41.039 --> 01:53:46.760 this is essentially an anti church, anti monarchy phraseology. That's the meaning 1175 01:53:46.800 --> 01:53:50.279 of liberty, equality fraternity, and that's why they go against church and state. 1176 01:53:50.520 --> 01:53:57.239 The rituals of a lot of the free Masonic revolutionary lodges included tearing down 1177 01:53:57.319 --> 01:54:01.000 throne and altar, Church and state. Everything that is the double Byzantine, 1178 01:54:01.439 --> 01:54:06.720 the double headed Byzantine Eagle. And by the way, this is a good 1179 01:54:06.760 --> 01:54:20.960 book reflections of a Russian statesment on this very point. So come over here 1180 01:54:23.920 --> 01:54:25.760 next, I want to look at a few texts. I gotta spend a 1181 01:54:25.760 --> 01:54:29.800 whole lot of time on this, but we're gonna point out again circling back 1182 01:54:29.840 --> 01:54:41.880 to the beginning of the talk, which has to do with christ is keen. 1183 01:54:41.960 --> 01:54:46.119 What does that mean? Was tied to the threefold office, as we 1184 01:54:46.199 --> 01:54:50.640 said, and one of the earliest prophecies of the Messiah. It's not the 1185 01:54:50.680 --> 01:54:54.960 only one. There's tons and tons of I mean, if you include typology, 1186 01:54:55.560 --> 01:55:02.039 there's prophecies of the Messiah everywhere, because the typology also becomes Christological Messianic 1187 01:55:02.079 --> 01:55:08.279 prophecy. But in Genesis forty nine, when we have the statements to the 1188 01:55:10.920 --> 01:55:17.600 tribes and here Judah, so the statements to Judah and Genesis forty nine, 1189 01:55:18.039 --> 01:55:25.439 who's Judah here? Who's the one that comes from Judah? Jesus, Judah, 1190 01:55:25.720 --> 01:55:30.800 Jesus, you are the one whom your brothers will praise. Your hand 1191 01:55:30.800 --> 01:55:33.039 will be on the neck of your enemies. Your father's children will bow before 1192 01:55:33.119 --> 01:55:39.279 you. Judah is a lion's wealth, the lion of the tribe of Judah. 1193 01:55:41.159 --> 01:55:44.000 From the pray my son you have gone up, he bows down, 1194 01:55:44.039 --> 01:55:47.479 He lies down like a lion, as a lion. And who will arouse 1195 01:55:47.560 --> 01:55:53.760 him? The royal scepter? The scepter, you understand, a sceptor is 1196 01:55:53.800 --> 01:56:00.560 a royal term, will not depart from the house of Judah. Judah will 1197 01:56:00.560 --> 01:56:04.920 be the royal lineage. So all of you goobers who think that the Bible 1198 01:56:05.000 --> 01:56:12.399 is anti monarchy. Aren't even aware that in Genesis forty nine is predicting the 1199 01:56:12.479 --> 01:56:19.239 Royal House of David, the Davidic Covenant. And if the Bible is anti 1200 01:56:19.279 --> 01:56:24.640 monarchy, if the law the total anti monarchy, why does Moses right a 1201 01:56:24.680 --> 01:56:30.319 book of laws for kings? Now this is biblical ignorance. People just know 1202 01:56:30.439 --> 01:56:34.279 that. Well, there's a verse that talks about Samuel says, you want 1203 01:56:34.279 --> 01:56:42.039 a king. I don't know why I start talking to doctor phil But now 1204 01:56:42.039 --> 01:56:45.680 it's just total biblical ignorance that thinks that. I mean, have you read 1205 01:56:45.720 --> 01:56:49.239 the Book of Kings. I mean, like it's all about royal houses and 1206 01:56:49.680 --> 01:56:59.439 it's like Game of Thrones. Dude, what are you talking about? The 1207 01:56:59.520 --> 01:57:04.000 scepter will not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet. 1208 01:57:04.000 --> 01:57:10.279 That's talking about his descent, his descendants in the House of Judah until Shiloh 1209 01:57:10.319 --> 01:57:14.720 comes. Shiloh is Jesus, the most famous, super famous Messianic prophecy, 1210 01:57:15.960 --> 01:57:19.920 and unto him will be the obedience of the nations. So it's gentile nations 1211 01:57:19.920 --> 01:57:27.319 will obey Shiloh the Messiah, the descendant of David, the royal descendant of 1212 01:57:27.359 --> 01:57:30.560 the Royal House of David. And guess what happens when Jesus comes No more 1213 01:57:30.560 --> 01:57:42.239 House of David because Israel's destroyed, So the scepter departs from Judah. So 1214 01:57:42.319 --> 01:57:50.800 the first Messianic prophecy that identifies Shiloh as the one to whom the gentiles look 1215 01:57:50.840 --> 01:58:03.119 from the House of Judah tribe of Judah, specifically identifies monarchy a royal lineage. 1216 01:58:03.560 --> 01:58:08.000 Now, there's tons and tons of passages in Proverbs, tons of passages 1217 01:58:08.039 --> 01:58:13.359 in the psalms that refer to kings princes. I mean, has anybody read 1218 01:58:13.479 --> 01:58:16.880 Proverbs? I mean there's like tons of proverbs that tell you to listen to 1219 01:58:16.920 --> 01:58:19.359 the king, obey the king. The king speaks the words of God, 1220 01:58:19.479 --> 01:58:26.039 so it's kingly. It talks about behaving and acting in a noble way, 1221 01:58:26.720 --> 01:58:32.720 nobility. The Protestants, the Prosestes not read Proverbs. I mean, what 1222 01:58:33.039 --> 01:58:38.600 you guys think that Proverbs is made up? Like, Oh, it doesn't 1223 01:58:38.600 --> 01:58:41.039 matter, remore, it's old Testament. Oh really, then how come Peter 1224 01:58:41.239 --> 01:58:46.359 says obey the king citing the same principles and proverbs. So Peter doesn't count. 1225 01:58:46.399 --> 01:58:55.359 Now, well those ancient world Yeah, but so what all of this 1226 01:58:55.399 --> 01:58:59.000 is from the ancient world. What are you talking about? Now? Here's 1227 01:58:59.000 --> 01:59:01.399 a huge mistake to s smake, and even some Roman Catholic Orthodox make this 1228 01:59:01.479 --> 01:59:08.600 mistake. And the priest by the way, six years ago, seven years 1229 01:59:08.600 --> 01:59:11.880 ago that I had a heated discussion with, he also made this mistake. 1230 01:59:14.600 --> 01:59:16.680 Everybody thinks. I don't know why. I think it's just kind of a 1231 01:59:16.720 --> 01:59:25.159 Protestant like default, because an Evangelical Protestant default people think this verse is about 1232 01:59:25.159 --> 01:59:38.399 the Second Coming, and perhaps some executes have thought it was. So do 1233 01:59:38.479 --> 01:59:45.399 we not have any mods? We got these filthy people just talking about nasty 1234 01:59:45.640 --> 01:59:51.399 stuff in the chat all day long. We got a spamming coomer in the 1235 01:59:51.520 --> 01:59:56.199 chat. So are there no mods here? Do my mods not come anymore? 1236 01:59:56.239 --> 02:00:04.079 I don't know. So let's see we need to make slow boylmo. 1237 02:00:04.239 --> 02:00:23.039 Here we go, so slow boys now a maud is in Jibb anyway. 1238 02:00:23.840 --> 02:00:26.960 So in the vision of the Ancient of Days famous prophecy of Daniel seven, 1239 02:00:27.720 --> 02:00:30.159 I watched, and thrones were put in place. The Ancient of Days was 1240 02:00:30.199 --> 02:00:32.640 seated. His gruma's white as noosed here was pure wool. His throne was 1241 02:00:32.720 --> 02:00:36.279 fiery flame wheels, burning fire fire stream issue before him and came before him. 1242 02:00:36.319 --> 02:00:40.319 Thousands ministered to him. Tens of thousands too before him, the court 1243 02:00:40.399 --> 02:00:44.119 was seated, books were open. I watched the pompous words of the beast. 1244 02:00:45.439 --> 02:00:49.359 Its body was destroyed and given to the burning flame. So the rest 1245 02:00:49.359 --> 02:00:54.079 of the beasts that are dominion taken away. I watched in the visions, 1246 02:00:54.079 --> 02:00:57.279 and behold, one like a son of Man, came with the clouds of 1247 02:00:57.279 --> 02:01:00.960 heaven to the Ancient of Days. Now everybody reads this, and they make 1248 02:01:01.000 --> 02:01:08.319 the mistake of thinking that, oh, well, that's Jesus in the first 1249 02:01:08.319 --> 02:01:13.319 part, Ancient of Days, and so this uh one in the who's ascending 1250 02:01:13.359 --> 02:01:19.399 in the clouds like a son of Man, that's oh Jesus. Okay. 1251 02:01:19.520 --> 02:01:25.680 So the orthodox understanding this passage is that the Ancient of Days is the Father. 1252 02:01:26.319 --> 02:01:28.640 But wait a minute, we can't image the Father, correct, So 1253 02:01:28.760 --> 02:01:31.479 how is the Father imaged here? The same way that John the Book of 1254 02:01:31.520 --> 02:01:36.039 Revelation and Ezekiel and Ezekiel one to ten images the Son. I'm talking about 1255 02:01:36.039 --> 02:01:40.920 Revelation like one, two and three where John talks about him being having white 1256 02:01:40.960 --> 02:01:48.359 hair and you know, seeing his glory and so forth. But this one 1257 02:01:48.359 --> 02:01:53.640 coming on the clouds of heaven. This is the ascension. This is not 1258 02:01:53.720 --> 02:01:59.880 the end of the world. It's the ascension because Jesus in acts one ascend 1259 02:02:00.439 --> 02:02:04.960 And does nobody remember in the New Testament every time Psalm one ten is cited. 1260 02:02:06.000 --> 02:02:13.159 When Psalm one ten is cited, Evangelicals and Americanist Orthodox and confused people, 1261 02:02:14.880 --> 02:02:17.880 how does Psalm one ten interpret How is it interpreted in the New Testament? 1262 02:02:18.399 --> 02:02:24.720 Citations sit at my right hand, and I'll make your enemies your footstool. 1263 02:02:25.359 --> 02:02:29.399 When was this sitting at the right hand? Is it the second Coming? 1264 02:02:29.640 --> 02:02:33.199 Where on earth do any of these people and you people in the audience, 1265 02:02:33.199 --> 02:02:40.319 where do you guys get the idea that this is the second Coming? 1266 02:02:40.880 --> 02:02:45.119 Patrick Ireland, if you have issues, you're welcome to come debate. You're 1267 02:02:45.159 --> 02:02:49.399 saying stop fighting with the papacy. The papacy you say I should fight Muslims. 1268 02:02:49.840 --> 02:02:53.199 The papacy is in line with the Muslims. What are you talking about? 1269 02:02:53.359 --> 02:02:56.520 Patrick? You want to come talk about this. Francis basically is a 1270 02:02:56.600 --> 02:02:59.640 Muslim. He goes in praising in the mosque with the Muslim worms mic. 1271 02:02:59.640 --> 02:03:04.760 What do you thay talking about? So it's the Father presented in the imagery 1272 02:03:04.800 --> 02:03:11.680 of the son, because you can't image the father, and it's the incarnate 1273 02:03:11.880 --> 02:03:15.920 one like a son of Man, ascending to him to receive what what does 1274 02:03:15.960 --> 02:03:19.159 he receive? I watched in the night visions, and one like the son 1275 02:03:19.159 --> 02:03:24.560 of Man came in the clouds of heaven to the ancient days. They were 1276 02:03:24.560 --> 02:03:28.600 brought near before him, and to him was given dominion, glory, kingdom, 1277 02:03:28.840 --> 02:03:32.159 that all people's nations and tongues should serve him. His dominions everlasting. 1278 02:03:32.359 --> 02:03:36.479 His kingdom is the one will not be destroyed. That's the ascension, and 1279 02:03:36.479 --> 02:03:45.800 I'm improve it to you. Revelation five. Now the lamb, when you 1280 02:03:45.800 --> 02:03:48.560 had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders bowed 1281 02:03:48.600 --> 02:03:53.159 down before the lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls of incense, 1282 02:03:53.319 --> 02:03:56.520 which are the prayers of the saints. That's intercession of the saints. By 1283 02:03:56.520 --> 02:04:00.000 the way, Protestants, the saints in heaven are doing a liturgy where they're 1284 02:04:00.119 --> 02:04:04.000 offering the prayers of the saints as incense. They sang a new song worthy 1285 02:04:04.000 --> 02:04:06.520 of you to take the stroll to open its seals. You were slaying. 1286 02:04:06.560 --> 02:04:10.760 You redeemed us to go obviously talking about Jesus. Okay, Jesus being worshiped 1287 02:04:10.800 --> 02:04:15.479 in heaven from every tribe tongue in nation. You made us kings and priests 1288 02:04:15.560 --> 02:04:23.399 to God, we will reign on the earth. Then I looked and behold 1289 02:04:23.399 --> 02:04:27.079 the voice of many living creatures, elders, ten thousands of ten thousands up 1290 02:04:27.600 --> 02:04:33.800 same language as Daniel John and John five. I mean relation five is consciously 1291 02:04:33.800 --> 02:04:42.960 clearly pulling from Daniel seven worthy as a lamb to be worshiped. So Jesus, 1292 02:04:42.960 --> 02:04:45.760 by the way, is worshiped by all creation, which refutes all the 1293 02:04:45.760 --> 02:04:51.359 arians and toes witnesses singing he's a creature. You can't worship creatures, but 1294 02:04:51.640 --> 02:05:00.159 he's given authority, power and dominion. You see that now, similar situation 1295 02:05:00.319 --> 02:05:09.079 Revelation nineteen. So the horror, Babylon city is destroyed, it falls, 1296 02:05:11.880 --> 02:05:16.399 The elders say Allelujah, Praise God. There's a great sound of a voice 1297 02:05:16.439 --> 02:05:25.159 of multitude, a god omnipotent reins. They're wearing the fine linen, the 1298 02:05:25.159 --> 02:05:29.560 bright robes, which are the righteous acts of the saints. Then there's the 1299 02:05:29.560 --> 02:05:34.079 marriage south of the lamb. And then we see the rider on the horse, 1300 02:05:34.119 --> 02:05:38.399 which is not Antichrist, by the way, shows us that the rider 1301 02:05:38.439 --> 02:05:44.279 on the white horse is the person of Christ called faithful, true in righteousness. 1302 02:05:44.319 --> 02:05:47.399 He judges and makes war, eyes like a flame of fire, many 1303 02:05:47.399 --> 02:05:50.560 crowns on his head. He has the name that only he knows, clothing 1304 02:05:50.680 --> 02:05:54.880 rube dipped in blood. His name is Word of God. Okay, clearly 1305 02:05:55.039 --> 02:06:00.520 is Jesus. Out of his mouth goes a sharp sword with with it he 1306 02:06:00.520 --> 02:06:03.960 says, strike, strike the nations. Okay, this is not like evangelicals 1307 02:06:04.000 --> 02:06:08.800 think like lasers shooting out of the mouth of Jesus. Okay, it's if 1308 02:06:08.840 --> 02:06:12.279 you read the Psalms, the preaching of the Word of God is the rod 1309 02:06:12.359 --> 02:06:15.079 that comes in, the sword that comes out to rule the nations. So 1310 02:06:15.119 --> 02:06:20.119 it's the preaching of the Gospel. He treads the wine press the fierceness of 1311 02:06:20.159 --> 02:06:26.119 the wrath of Almighty God. And on his Robbie has a name King of 1312 02:06:26.199 --> 02:06:31.720 Kings and Lord of lords. So yeah, Christ is king. Obviously. 1313 02:06:33.279 --> 02:06:35.680 There was actually, I'm not kidding, there was an evangelical in the chat 1314 02:06:35.720 --> 02:06:45.880 at the beginning saying Jesus is not a king. We're Protestants. We believe 1315 02:06:45.960 --> 02:06:50.239 Jesus is our savior. Have you read the New Testament. I mean, 1316 02:06:50.279 --> 02:06:54.960 do you think that's the only phrase use of Jesus? So people are saying, 1317 02:06:55.000 --> 02:06:59.520 get the get the chat under control? Can you guys not Bannon? 1318 02:06:59.720 --> 02:07:04.760 Where's yeah? Which one's the bad guy? Where's the troll? I don't 1319 02:07:04.760 --> 02:07:14.680 see him. There's somebody banning. Yeah, I don't see the guy, 1320 02:07:14.760 --> 02:07:16.439 So I don't know how How could he be in the chat if I don't 1321 02:07:16.439 --> 02:07:32.039 see him? M of the live chat is slow, but I still don't 1322 02:07:32.079 --> 02:07:39.399 see anything. I don't see any of the trolling stuff. Where is he 1323 02:07:39.439 --> 02:07:48.159 at? Hmm? This is weird. Yeah, I banned the dude earlier, 1324 02:07:48.199 --> 02:07:49.920 so I don't know. I don't see how you could be back and 1325 02:07:49.960 --> 02:08:03.520 I couldn't see him. Mister gay conservative. That's so crazy. How is 1326 02:08:03.520 --> 02:08:05.600 it that you can't that I can't see a profile in my chat? That's 1327 02:08:05.600 --> 02:08:18.239 wild. Let me maybe if I refresh my control screen, I can see 1328 02:08:18.239 --> 02:08:31.520 it. Listen, we're going to open this up for questions. Okay, 1329 02:08:31.560 --> 02:08:35.439 so thank you, slow boy, appreciate that. Now. There's a lot 1330 02:08:35.479 --> 02:08:39.239 more passages that we could go to. But tonight, I think we've had 1331 02:08:39.319 --> 02:08:41.720 a good overview that you know, basically, we're at the point where to 1332 02:08:41.800 --> 02:08:48.520 sum this up. You know, clearly Christ does have a civil social role. 1333 02:08:50.720 --> 02:08:52.600 He is king of kings, he is lord of lords, he is 1334 02:08:52.760 --> 02:08:58.720 the king, even when he's not recognized as that. And it's not our 1335 02:08:58.800 --> 02:09:03.560 job first and foremost to make him politically, you know, recognized in a 1336 02:09:03.640 --> 02:09:09.039 completely insane pagan state. It's not going to work. That's why you have 1337 02:09:09.079 --> 02:09:13.439 to convert the majority of the masses of the people before you can try to 1338 02:09:13.479 --> 02:09:18.840 have a permeation of Christianity into the states and into the laws. And America 1339 02:09:18.920 --> 02:09:24.680 is already, because of its internal contradictions as an enlightenment and kind of sort 1340 02:09:24.720 --> 02:09:28.560 of pseudo Christian nation, it's really sort of chosen to go in the direction 1341 02:09:28.640 --> 02:09:33.319 of atheism and enlightenment away from the Christian elements that it had. So America 1342 02:09:33.359 --> 02:09:37.640 had both of these elements there, it's gone in that direction. So I 1343 02:09:37.640 --> 02:09:41.800 don't think anytime soon. I mean, again, it's possible we get some 1344 02:09:41.840 --> 02:09:46.880 sort of like massive Orthodox revival in the next twenty years and you know, 1345 02:09:46.479 --> 02:09:50.800 something like that. But outside of that, I just don't see the point 1346 02:09:50.880 --> 02:09:56.880 of thinking that you'll have a top down conversion of the state. So I 1347 02:09:56.920 --> 02:10:01.560 think we just need to focus on what we're doing, and if God grants 1348 02:10:01.640 --> 02:10:05.039 that, if we get a majority of people by some miracle. Remember the 1349 02:10:05.119 --> 02:10:09.239 Roman Empire took three centuries and millions of martyrs to get to that point. 1350 02:10:11.640 --> 02:10:18.760 So anyway, that's my take on that. Let's see or freezing. What's 1351 02:10:18.840 --> 02:10:22.800 up? So if you want to ask a question, pose an argument, 1352 02:10:22.000 --> 02:10:28.920 challenge, go ahead, Well, yes, sir, what's up? Hey? 1353 02:10:28.920 --> 02:10:33.560 I had two questions, if that's that's all right, okay, all 1354 02:10:33.640 --> 02:10:39.640 right. So you said it's not the Orthodox's job to convert the state rather 1355 02:10:39.680 --> 02:10:43.439 than just just to convert individuals and families. And I just wanted to know 1356 02:10:45.520 --> 02:10:50.319 what would be the problem with or what would be a moral about a movement 1357 02:10:50.359 --> 02:10:56.479 that sought to convert the state, or movement that wanted to enforce Orthodox Christian 1358 02:10:56.520 --> 02:11:01.640 morals on the country through political means, because it doesn't work to enforce those 1359 02:11:01.680 --> 02:11:07.960 things in a top down way. It's just it's not you can't do that 1360 02:11:09.399 --> 02:11:13.000 like the you need the will or the box. He believes in free will, 1361 02:11:13.039 --> 02:11:16.199 We believe in the consent of the people. It's not a uh, 1362 02:11:16.520 --> 02:11:20.479 you know, it's not a trad cat thing where we march in as crusaders, 1363 02:11:20.319 --> 02:11:24.760 uh, you know, and force these people to become Roman Catholic or 1364 02:11:24.760 --> 02:11:28.119 something. It's just it's just totally wrongheaded to the way that we think about 1365 02:11:28.119 --> 02:11:31.520 it. And the Church didn't do that in the first three centuries. Did 1366 02:11:31.520 --> 02:11:35.399 the Church go and try to convert Nero and Caligula? First? No, 1367 02:11:39.960 --> 02:11:46.399 okay, And my second question, I think earlier you kind of implied that 1368 02:11:46.560 --> 02:11:52.520 society some way you run by like pagans, and that the and that the 1369 02:11:52.600 --> 02:11:56.000 JQ as you put it, is in it's something that's not really worth talking 1370 02:11:56.000 --> 02:11:58.560 about. And I just want to get your take on that. Like, 1371 02:11:58.760 --> 02:12:03.920 yeah, I didn't say that though, So I said American society is pagan. 1372 02:12:03.600 --> 02:12:07.359 I didn't say any of that. I said American society as pagan. 1373 02:12:07.000 --> 02:12:11.000 I said that. I didn't say it was run by pagan's. I said 1374 02:12:11.000 --> 02:12:15.520 the people in the society are pagan. They're post Christian, and so you're 1375 02:12:15.560 --> 02:12:22.800 not going to get convert you know, the House and the Senate to Christianity 1376 02:12:22.840 --> 02:12:26.640 and then make them make everybody be moral in christian That's what I said. 1377 02:12:26.680 --> 02:12:33.119 And I said that I cover the more controversial topics not on YouTube. So 1378 02:12:33.199 --> 02:12:37.880 I said all of that, but maybe you didn't hear that, so it's 1379 02:12:37.920 --> 02:12:39.399 open for him. If you guys want to ask a question, come on, 1380 02:12:41.840 --> 02:12:46.159 you can request to speak. I'll give you the mic. It's just 1381 02:12:46.199 --> 02:12:50.399 interesting to me that nobody actually cares. So in this whole discussion of quote 1382 02:12:50.479 --> 02:12:54.760 Christ is King, no one actually cares about the theology and the history of 1383 02:12:54.760 --> 02:13:01.640 it. It's just a Twitter thing to talk about the Amish question. So 1384 02:13:05.520 --> 02:13:16.800 let's see Dmitri Dimitrios. Yeah, Patrick, that's not true. Uh would 1385 02:13:16.840 --> 02:13:22.079 be. Patrice has a whole video on Orthodoxy's history of mission works. Just 1386 02:13:22.159 --> 02:13:24.359 get rid of that guy, because if Patrick, if you're not going to 1387 02:13:24.399 --> 02:13:28.880 come and discuss in the the voice shot, then just why are you just 1388 02:13:28.000 --> 02:13:31.279 spamming all this stuff. It's waste of time. That's up. Yes, 1389 02:13:31.319 --> 02:13:37.239 sir, oh hypothetical question. I know you don't get many of these, 1390 02:13:37.279 --> 02:13:41.159 but you know, we keep on going back and forth on these papal decrees 1391 02:13:41.159 --> 02:13:46.600 and documents. What would it take for you to be like, let's say 1392 02:13:46.600 --> 02:13:50.039 the Pope tomorrow got up and had a decree and said, listen, I'm 1393 02:13:50.319 --> 02:13:56.079 advocating. I'm a first among equals, but I'm not unfallible. This is 1394 02:13:56.079 --> 02:14:03.079 the Philly way the way it should be forever more original sin and it's it's 1395 02:14:03.279 --> 02:14:07.000 nuances of the Orthodox Church is the correct way of looking at original thing? 1396 02:14:07.159 --> 02:14:09.880 Like what would it take for you to be like okay, let's let's go 1397 02:14:11.079 --> 02:14:15.199 union, it's time for union, Like what would it take? Just hypothetical 1398 02:14:15.239 --> 02:14:18.600 question, just curiosity on my part and what your thoughts would be on that. 1399 02:14:20.359 --> 02:14:24.840 Yeah, I mean it's we don't believe that there's like a future church 1400 02:14:26.000 --> 02:14:30.720 to be discovered. We think that the church always has its fundamental components of 1401 02:14:30.760 --> 02:14:35.359 being one holy, Catholic and Apostolic. So the only terms of union are 1402 02:14:35.119 --> 02:14:41.960 the Roman Sea rejoins the Orthodox Church on Orthodox terms. That's it, Okay, 1403 02:14:43.720 --> 02:14:45.960 just a hypotheticy. No, it's a great question. I don't mind 1404 02:14:45.960 --> 02:14:48.880 answering that. By the way, so people in the Chat, they're asking 1405 02:14:48.359 --> 02:14:52.319 sending the Orthodox don't do mission work, it's not true. Ubi Petris has 1406 02:14:52.439 --> 02:14:58.359 I think a three part series right here documentary that we made. First part 1407 02:14:58.520 --> 02:15:03.560 was the history of the Assyrian Mission. Second part is a history of Orthodox 1408 02:15:03.600 --> 02:15:07.920 missions for from ten thousand, from one thousand to sixteen hundred. So you 1409 02:15:07.920 --> 02:15:13.920 can watch these surf historical documentaries there. Thank you for those questions there, 1410 02:15:16.079 --> 02:15:28.760 Jim, next up is Sapphire? What's up? Man? So people that 1411 02:15:28.800 --> 02:15:31.399 are asking how can I call in? It's in the show description. It's 1412 02:15:31.640 --> 02:15:37.560 it's Twitter, It's it's calling through X. Hey, what's upping? I 1413 02:15:37.600 --> 02:15:39.760 have a few short questions if you don't mind hold on. I forgot to 1414 02:15:39.800 --> 02:15:43.840 put the link to the to the Twitter in here. I thought I put 1415 02:15:43.840 --> 02:15:46.079 it in the show description. I apologize I didn't put it in there, 1416 02:15:46.079 --> 02:15:48.319 So let me put it in here right now for you guys, I should 1417 02:15:48.319 --> 02:15:50.960 answer a question is yeah, go ahead? No, Wait, I can't 1418 02:15:52.000 --> 02:15:54.079 put it in there because I don't have not loving a little creepy, but 1419 02:15:54.840 --> 02:15:58.920 our demons the things we should be concerned about in our day to day life. 1420 02:16:00.840 --> 02:16:05.560 Yeah, but we don't have to like get superstitious about it. I 1421 02:16:05.640 --> 02:16:11.359 mean typically typically a good spiritual father will kind of, you know, coach 1422 02:16:11.439 --> 02:16:16.079 you and guide you into not going getting losing your you know, losing your 1423 02:16:16.119 --> 02:16:20.199 sanity or your or your peace. Uh, kind of worrying about demons too 1424 02:16:20.279 --> 02:16:22.600 much, I understand, But like, what are some like I mean, 1425 02:16:22.640 --> 02:16:26.039 I know you have videos on this topic, but what would you recommend if 1426 02:16:26.119 --> 02:16:37.520 someone's like concerned about the fact that is existently doing something or I'm thinking, 1427 02:16:39.399 --> 02:16:43.360 Well, a lot of people in the Orthodox Church even still like the Spiritual 1428 02:16:43.399 --> 02:16:48.280 Combat Book by Luigi's Scipoli. I think that's a book that a lot of 1429 02:16:48.360 --> 02:16:52.879 Orthodox people like. There's also the book it's like a three it's a if 1430 02:16:52.879 --> 02:16:56.399 you really want like a big long thing. There's a three part series called 1431 02:16:58.399 --> 02:17:03.360 Treatment of Spiritual Illnesses. Is a good book on that. Derek, what's 1432 02:17:03.440 --> 02:17:26.239 up? Derek? Got it? I'm mute, Derek. Hey, I'm 1433 02:17:26.280 --> 02:17:30.200 sorry. I know you just brought me if I just didn't. I didn't 1434 02:17:30.200 --> 02:17:33.079 hear anything once you brought me up, so I didn't see an introduction. 1435 02:17:33.200 --> 02:17:39.879 So I appreciate you bringing me up. And Jay trying to understand are you 1436 02:17:41.040 --> 02:17:46.280 a Catholic? Like I want to know because in order for me to answer 1437 02:17:46.360 --> 02:17:54.840 the question is Christ king? It requires me to understand who's asking that question. 1438 02:17:54.360 --> 02:18:00.479 Yeah, that's fair. I'm Orthodox, so Orthodox Christian? All right? 1439 02:18:00.639 --> 02:18:09.120 Well, so you follow a you know, a Catholicism, correct to 1440 02:18:09.319 --> 02:18:13.440 agree? I mean, we call ourselves the Orthodox Catholic Church, correct, 1441 02:18:13.520 --> 02:18:16.079 so, but we're not the Roman Catholic papal church, so we don't follow 1442 02:18:16.120 --> 02:18:20.120 the pope and we don't have, you know, a lot of those sort 1443 02:18:20.159 --> 02:18:22.719 of Roman Catholic trappings, but probably if you're a Protestant, you would think 1444 02:18:22.719 --> 02:18:28.760 we're quote Catholic. Yeah, okay. So here's what I Here's the reason 1445 02:18:28.799 --> 02:18:31.719 why I'm saying this is because I am first of all, the last thing 1446 02:18:31.760 --> 02:18:37.520 I want to do is have confrontations or arguments or anything about any religion. 1447 02:18:37.600 --> 02:18:41.639 Right, Because here's the one thing I know about God is he doesn't need 1448 02:18:41.719 --> 02:18:48.799 my defense. Right. It's not mere little me. He doesn't mean he 1449 02:18:48.840 --> 02:18:56.719 doesn't need me defending him, and neither is Christ. So I follow very 1450 02:18:56.840 --> 02:19:05.200 strictly Christ's words, specifically, not Peters, but Paul's no one. No 1451 02:19:05.200 --> 02:19:09.559 one else is but doesn't hold on. So doesn't Jesus say to the apostles, 1452 02:19:09.600 --> 02:19:13.159 he who hears you hears me. Well, that's what I'm saying. 1453 02:19:15.000 --> 02:19:22.120 So he who hears me, here's no No, he who hears you apostles 1454 02:19:22.239 --> 02:19:26.959 also hears me. Exactly, Father, all of you is in me. 1455 02:19:26.319 --> 02:19:30.639 All of you, Father, all of you isn't me. And the opposite, 1456 02:19:30.879 --> 02:19:33.000 that's the opposite of what you just said. No, but what I'm 1457 02:19:33.000 --> 02:19:37.280 saying is that I'm recating his high priestly parrector father. All of me is 1458 02:19:37.280 --> 02:19:39.719 in you and all of you. I'm not talking about high priestly prayers, 1459 02:19:39.799 --> 02:19:45.399 so that want him to have exactly what I have? Did he not say 1460 02:19:45.440 --> 02:19:48.000 that the very first thing that you said is wrong and I'm showing you how 1461 02:19:48.000 --> 02:19:52.479 it's wrong by the phrase he hears you he is wrong. But it's scripture, 1462 02:19:54.399 --> 02:19:56.879 all right, So he's not even gonna listen. So no point. 1463 02:19:56.440 --> 02:20:11.280 Cyril Karellian, what's up? What's up? You get on you? So 1464 02:20:11.319 --> 02:20:15.159 people say, oh, you're so mean. I multiple times explained what I 1465 02:20:15.200 --> 02:20:18.639 said. The guy didn't care what blue past. It wasn't gonna listen. 1466 02:20:18.719 --> 02:20:22.680 So if people don't react and interact with the point that I made after three 1467 02:20:22.760 --> 02:20:26.559 times, I'm not being mean by moving on. So I'm so tired of 1468 02:20:26.559 --> 02:20:33.360 this stuff. Piety pete five dollars. If I publicly signal all about my 1469 02:20:33.399 --> 02:20:35.520 prayer life, how many piety points do I get? Actually, I think 1470 02:20:35.559 --> 02:20:41.799 Elon is putting into place an algorithm where it will boost you the more you 1471 02:20:41.840 --> 02:20:48.120 post your prayers on Twitter, so a lot. So there's actually algorithmic tracking 1472 02:20:48.159 --> 02:20:52.520 now for your piety points unknown fifteen dollars If Israel builds a third temple and 1473 02:20:52.559 --> 02:21:01.000 sacrifices a red halfer in the Messiah does not come arrive. I don't know 1474 02:21:01.040 --> 02:21:03.040 what you mean by Massiah rise. I think you just mean they're asaicon. 1475 02:21:03.159 --> 02:21:11.000 Okay. Can the world evict European descendants from Palestine? Will they accept Christ? 1476 02:21:11.120 --> 02:21:16.959 Then? Actually, I do think there is a I think that the 1477 02:21:16.000 --> 02:21:20.879 Patristic teaching, in line with Romans eleven, is that there is a future 1478 02:21:20.920 --> 02:21:24.200 conversion of the Jews. And how that will happen or when that will happen, 1479 02:21:24.200 --> 02:21:26.559 I don't know, but I do think the Bible and the Church Fathers 1480 02:21:26.559 --> 02:21:31.719 teach that. Cyril says it, how the Nations talks about it. John 1481 02:21:31.799 --> 02:21:39.520 Damascus talks about the conversion of the Jews. I think Christalism too. Volunteer 1482 02:21:39.600 --> 02:21:46.200 two ninety four. Well, the Orthodox perspective is the reason that sexuality contains 1483 02:21:46.239 --> 02:21:54.120 a taboo scandal due to the fall of man. There is a connection between 1484 02:21:56.200 --> 02:22:01.200 the fall and how we reproduce. But I don't think that there's anything taboo 1485 02:22:01.360 --> 02:22:09.079 about sexuality or human sexuality itself, So that's an important distinction. Is it 1486 02:22:09.079 --> 02:22:11.559 connected to the shame of nakedness? Probably in some way. I don't know 1487 02:22:11.639 --> 02:22:16.760 exactly what I mean. There's the Church fathers dispute this and the question and 1488 02:22:16.799 --> 02:22:22.319 sort of speculate on this. How would the motive production happen in Eden? 1489 02:22:24.760 --> 02:22:28.760 We're not told some of the church fathers speculate about that. How will it 1490 02:22:28.799 --> 02:22:31.639 happen in the Escaton? I tend to think that there isn't reproduction in the 1491 02:22:31.760 --> 02:22:37.360 Escaton? So anyway, what's up? Man? Karellian? Thank you for 1492 02:22:37.399 --> 02:22:46.920 the super ship? Can you hear me? Yeah? What's up? Quick 1493 02:22:48.000 --> 02:22:52.959 question? I was listening to another stream. Some guy brought up a crystological 1494 02:22:52.079 --> 02:22:56.479 question which is actually rather interesting. I wanted to get your take on it. 1495 02:22:58.079 --> 02:23:03.920 Okay, so if if we believe that Christ's humanity was from Mary, 1496 02:23:05.520 --> 02:23:11.319 all right, this person was asking, what about the why chromosome? Where 1497 02:23:11.319 --> 02:23:20.000 does that come from? I'm not sure. Yeah, I thought it seems 1498 02:23:20.040 --> 02:23:24.520 like a very simple question, but it's actually a little bit tougher. I 1499 02:23:24.559 --> 02:23:26.799 don't think that, you know, someone could give a coaching to answer very 1500 02:23:26.840 --> 02:23:31.920 quickly on that. Presumably. I mean, I guess the Father just created 1501 02:23:31.000 --> 02:23:35.360 him as as male in the same way that you know he directly creates Adam 1502 02:23:35.399 --> 02:23:43.600 as male without you know, a prior male father. I mean, I 1503 02:23:43.600 --> 02:23:48.600 would I'd be clined to think that because of the fact that by the time 1504 02:23:48.639 --> 02:23:56.920 of John Damascus there's a dispute about the nature of christ humanity. It's I 1505 02:23:56.959 --> 02:24:01.959 think his name is Julian of Hollocarnassis, and there's this idea that the humanity 1506 02:24:01.959 --> 02:24:09.920 of Christ is like super divine and never human. Anyway, the response to 1507 02:24:09.959 --> 02:24:13.200 some of that is that Christ is the new Atom, and so he actually 1508 02:24:13.200 --> 02:24:18.399 has the same humanity that Adam has in the garden. So it's pre fallen, 1509 02:24:20.000 --> 02:24:22.600 it's a not a fallen humanity, and that would suggest that it's essentially 1510 02:24:22.600 --> 02:24:26.799 the same type of humanity that Adam had, which was a direct male creation, 1511 02:24:28.120 --> 02:24:33.360 would be my guess. I think that's a really good answer. Yeah, 1512 02:24:33.600 --> 02:24:37.040 if you have another moment, just one more quick question. Sure. 1513 02:24:39.040 --> 02:24:43.200 I was engaging with a few guys from the LCMS a few days ago, 1514 02:24:43.799 --> 02:24:48.799 and it's interesting there. I feel like, especially Lutheranism has been losing some 1515 02:24:48.879 --> 02:24:56.760 of their members, particularly towards Orthodoxy. I think there's some parallels that can 1516 02:24:56.799 --> 02:25:00.719 be drawn, but what they keep pointing to is that they're the early Church 1517 02:25:00.920 --> 02:25:05.479 that Orthodoxy does not have a closed canon. We never had any binding canon, 1518 02:25:07.200 --> 02:25:11.920 and that they are the only how do I say, denomination that also 1519 02:25:11.040 --> 02:25:18.559 does not have a closed cannon? And when you bring up well Hippo Carthage, 1520 02:25:20.399 --> 02:25:22.879 they'll say, oh, none of those were binding because those weren't in 1521 02:25:22.920 --> 02:25:26.719 the ecumenical councils. Right, Well, why are we supposed to accept that 1522 02:25:26.840 --> 02:25:31.319 Lutheran about ecumenical councils. Oh no, I agree with you completely. It's 1523 02:25:31.360 --> 02:25:35.079 it's very much picking and choosing. But it's like you're trying to nail jello 1524 02:25:35.200 --> 02:25:39.159 to the wall, you know what I mean. They bring the argument and 1525 02:25:39.200 --> 02:25:41.360 you're like, well, hold on, no, no, we do have 1526 02:25:41.520 --> 02:25:48.280 local synods and councils that are universally accepted. That's how the church worked with 1527 02:25:48.440 --> 02:25:52.159 number one. Right. You can't just say, okay, I picked one 1528 02:25:52.200 --> 02:25:54.159 to seven. We're not really so much sure on it. Where do we 1529 02:25:54.200 --> 02:25:58.920 go from here? It's like, well, we start with different presuppositions. 1530 02:25:58.040 --> 02:26:03.799 Yeah, but I think it's probably their best argument if they want to stem 1531 02:26:03.920 --> 02:26:05.760 the bleeding. Well, I just I mean, I would I would contend 1532 02:26:05.799 --> 02:26:09.479 that, you know, I mean, as a Lutheran, at least a 1533 02:26:09.479 --> 02:26:15.319 classical Lutheran has to say something like, you know, sola fide is the 1534 02:26:15.360 --> 02:26:20.440 gospel, right, So where is there a solo fide in the first three 1535 02:26:20.520 --> 02:26:22.920 fourth centuries of the church. If you're going to argue that the first three 1536 02:26:22.959 --> 02:26:26.360 fourth century of the church is like a pro to Lutheran church, Okay, 1537 02:26:26.399 --> 02:26:30.280 where is sola fide and where sol scripture? But I mean, didn't James 1538 02:26:30.319 --> 02:26:33.719 White already concede to Trent Horne that they weren't operating on sola scripture in the 1539 02:26:33.719 --> 02:26:39.040 first three centuries. Yeah, I even looked into it from their end, 1540 02:26:39.079 --> 02:26:43.840 And they start talking about things that you know, within Orthodoxy is relatively unknown, 1541 02:26:43.920 --> 02:26:48.840 you know, condying merits and the real discussion that was between Augustine and 1542 02:26:48.879 --> 02:26:52.959 Pelagius. Say, but none of that is sola fide though, that's not 1543 02:26:52.120 --> 02:26:56.040 justification about faith alone. Well, they start with that and then they grow 1544 02:26:56.079 --> 02:27:00.120 it out too. Well, of course, you know, congruent merit is 1545 02:27:00.239 --> 02:27:03.559 nothing right, It all has to be condine and then that means it is 1546 02:27:03.639 --> 02:27:07.639 really grace alone because you can't perform a condying merit. Yeah, but that's 1547 02:27:07.680 --> 02:27:11.079 not even like it's not even a question of merit. Justification by faith alone 1548 02:27:11.280 --> 02:27:18.120 is a nominalist idea that you can through notional faith or whatever kind of faith 1549 02:27:18.159 --> 02:27:24.920 you want to call it be put into a legal dispositional status in front of 1550 02:27:24.959 --> 02:27:30.200 God. Where is that in the first four centuries Nowhere? I don't even 1551 02:27:30.239 --> 02:27:31.920 know if Luther could give a good answer, even with you, when you 1552 02:27:33.000 --> 02:27:35.520 read his disputations with Joha and that condescend Yeah, I've read that. I've 1553 02:27:35.559 --> 02:27:39.479 read that debate. Yeah, yeah, not exactly a great answer. But 1554 02:27:39.559 --> 02:27:43.639 again, you know you're gonna well, so well, that's my point though, 1555 02:27:43.639 --> 02:27:46.079 it is like, so, wait a minute, if sola fide in 1556 02:27:46.159 --> 02:27:50.319 that imputational dispositional legal sense is not there, and if sol scriptura is not 1557 02:27:50.360 --> 02:27:54.000 there in the first four centuries, how is this first four centuries church in 1558 02:27:54.040 --> 02:28:00.799 any way quote proto Lutheran. It's not you said, That's what I thought 1559 02:28:00.799 --> 02:28:03.959 you said. That was what their argument was. Their argument is that, 1560 02:28:03.040 --> 02:28:07.000 I mean, that hasn't changed what they try to I think I'm just saying 1561 02:28:07.000 --> 02:28:11.000 that that's I'm saying that, that's what my argument. My question would be 1562 02:28:11.040 --> 02:28:13.360 to somebody who says that, somebody says, hey, the you know, 1563 02:28:13.479 --> 02:28:16.399 first fourth century church was basically Lutheran, I'd be like, Okay, where's 1564 02:28:16.399 --> 02:28:20.440 solid and where's the social feue. I would say, if you very selectively 1565 02:28:20.520 --> 02:28:24.399 take certain quotes from the fathers, I think you can sort of make it 1566 02:28:24.440 --> 02:28:31.040 happen, especially if you really focus on Augustine and Ambrose. But from an 1567 02:28:31.079 --> 02:28:35.559 academic standpoint, they are proto august I mean, sorry, okay, but 1568 02:28:35.600 --> 02:28:39.319 again, Augustinians, I understand that. I understand that you can be believe 1569 02:28:39.360 --> 02:28:43.600 in badgel, regeneration and grace alone and be Augustinian. None of that is 1570 02:28:43.799 --> 02:28:50.639 justification by faith alone. And that's the Lutheran lynchpin of the church right right, 1571 02:28:50.000 --> 02:28:54.879 or as he said, that's what the church stands correct. Yeah, 1572 02:28:56.760 --> 02:29:01.680 yeah, yeah, great question. Yeah, appreciate it. I really appreciate 1573 02:29:01.680 --> 02:29:05.159 it. Thank you. WHOA, Suddenly we got eleven people. Where all 1574 02:29:05.159 --> 02:29:09.079 these people come from wanting to get into it? Now? We had like 1575 02:29:09.120 --> 02:29:11.239 two people for like an hour, and now there's eleven people. Dan, 1576 02:29:11.319 --> 02:29:20.040 what's up, Dan, I'm trying to get through these quick. He can 1577 02:29:20.079 --> 02:29:26.200 hear me, sir. I was having a conversation with a z I'm kind 1578 02:29:26.200 --> 02:29:28.959 of cumuen right now. But I was having a conversation with a longtime buddy. 1579 02:29:28.959 --> 02:29:33.879 He's a Protestant, and I guess I'm looking for resources, I guess, 1580 02:29:33.879 --> 02:29:39.479 but I'll just kind of tell you where this was going. But so 1581 02:29:39.639 --> 02:29:41.959 obviously his view is, you know, it doesn't really matter which church you're 1582 02:29:43.040 --> 02:29:46.239 part of as long as you believe in you know, Christ, you know, 1583 02:29:46.559 --> 02:29:48.879 saving work, et cetera. I mean, just you know, the 1584 02:29:48.920 --> 02:29:54.239 general mere Christianity. Well, I mean, what does that mean to what 1585 02:29:54.319 --> 02:29:58.399 Christ? Like the Mormon Christ, Joe's Witness Christ. So if he's not 1586 02:29:58.440 --> 02:30:01.920 a Mormon or Joe's Witness, then he's national just kind of typical process. 1587 02:30:01.079 --> 02:30:05.520 Yeah, but I'm saying, like, you start asking those kinds of questions, 1588 02:30:05.520 --> 02:30:07.200 and he's going to start saying, well, I mean you have to 1589 02:30:07.200 --> 02:30:09.840 be believing the deed of Christ and Trinity. And it's like, well, 1590 02:30:09.840 --> 02:30:13.000 wait a minute, how do we know those are the two? Is that? 1591 02:30:13.120 --> 02:30:16.079 Is that all? It is? Like, cannot be a pollinarian. 1592 02:30:16.239 --> 02:30:20.200 But I mean, so you say that it doesn't work to just say like 1593 02:30:20.319 --> 02:30:24.760 lowest commonness, I would start questioning the lowest common nominator stuff. And yeah, 1594 02:30:24.200 --> 02:30:28.680 yeah, so my question or I mean, what the question that I 1595 02:30:28.760 --> 02:30:33.120 came out of that with because obviously now that I'm joining the Orthodox Church because 1596 02:30:33.159 --> 02:30:37.879 I believe it is you know, the one church church, and so you 1597 02:30:37.920 --> 02:30:41.040 have Christ the head and you have the body of Christ, right, and 1598 02:30:41.120 --> 02:30:45.840 so would you I mean, is woul the Orthodox Church say that the Orthodox 1599 02:30:45.920 --> 02:30:50.719 Church is the body of Christ? Like? Okay? So, and then 1600 02:30:50.959 --> 02:30:58.959 if I reject the body, is that I mean, is that the same 1601 02:30:58.000 --> 02:31:01.600 as rejecting the head? Like? Are those two things? Yeah? I 1602 02:31:01.600 --> 02:31:03.879 mean, how can you be in the body if you don't want the body 1603 02:31:03.879 --> 02:31:07.879 of the head. So that was the answer. But so so then my 1604 02:31:07.000 --> 02:31:11.000 question, I mean we say it every day in the creed or every basically 1605 02:31:11.239 --> 02:31:16.840 one holy calogi charge. Yeah, is there any do you have any resources 1606 02:31:16.840 --> 02:31:22.840 for like or any fathers that talk about the relationship between or like the myscal 1607 02:31:24.040 --> 02:31:26.600 union of the body and the head, or or is there anyone that sticks 1608 02:31:26.600 --> 02:31:28.959 out to you? Well? I mean, you know, if you were 1609 02:31:30.000 --> 02:31:33.639 to read Palmazansky's book on Orthodox dogmatics, like when he talks about Christology and 1610 02:31:33.680 --> 02:31:37.120 the doctrine of the Church, you'll notice they go together. So you can't 1611 02:31:37.120 --> 02:31:43.559 have ecclesiology separated from your Christology, because the way that we do Christology defines 1612 02:31:43.799 --> 02:31:48.600 and basically gives us our sacramatology and our ecclesiology. They go together, they're 1613 02:31:48.639 --> 02:31:54.079 all hinging on Christology. So I would try to get your buddy into understanding 1614 02:31:54.079 --> 02:31:58.600 correct Christology first, and that will kind of logically lead to correct sacramatology and 1615 02:32:00.040 --> 02:32:07.479 theology. Okay, thank you, Yeah, great questions. So we've got 1616 02:32:07.479 --> 02:32:13.360 a whole bunch of people I would ask that. I mean, it's not 1617 02:32:13.399 --> 02:32:20.479 a huge deal, but tonight's topic is church state. So and I'm not 1618 02:32:20.520 --> 02:32:24.639 mad at the guy that asked the question about before it's falling out, I 1619 02:32:24.680 --> 02:32:28.079 don't care. But if you have a church state question, because that's the 1620 02:32:28.159 --> 02:32:31.840 topic tonight, that's really what I'd like to focus on. Ginghis Khan, 1621 02:32:31.920 --> 02:33:05.719 what's up? You gotta unmute man? You hey, so do you think 1622 02:33:05.799 --> 02:33:11.120 Chris is king? Yeah? Sure, that's what we're talking about tonight. 1623 02:33:11.799 --> 02:33:18.319 H Yeah, he's the king, Okay, just like me. Okay, 1624 02:33:18.440 --> 02:33:26.440 what does that mean? Jasn is Okay, that's that's super funny. Dude. 1625 02:33:28.920 --> 02:33:31.520 My hole myself back from from laughing that it was so funny. Etro, 1626 02:33:31.559 --> 02:33:39.520 what's up dude? E t R? What's up? You gotta unmute 1627 02:33:39.520 --> 02:33:46.040 man? Many good, big fan. And yeah, I'm I'm thinking about 1628 02:33:46.040 --> 02:33:52.079 like converning but like orthodoxy. But one thing that's like kind of confusing to 1629 02:33:52.079 --> 02:33:56.000 me, is like are you are people outside of the church Orthodox Church, 1630 02:33:56.079 --> 02:34:00.360 Like are they can they still be saved? We don't make determinations on their 1631 02:34:00.399 --> 02:34:03.280 eternal status. All we're told is that we have to tell them to become 1632 02:34:03.399 --> 02:34:07.000 Orthodox. So if God has a way that he can join people to the 1633 02:34:07.040 --> 02:34:09.200 mystical body of the Orthodox Church, God can do that. He did that 1634 02:34:09.239 --> 02:34:15.079 with let thief on the cross, So I can't judge that. But what 1635 02:34:15.159 --> 02:34:18.719 I am told to do is to tell people who become Orthodox. Okay, 1636 02:34:18.760 --> 02:34:24.520 so like people outside of the Orthodox Church, like are they going to Hell 1637 02:34:24.719 --> 02:34:28.040 or like network? I mean, I'm not trying to be mean. It's 1638 02:34:28.079 --> 02:34:33.799 like I just that's exactly what I just answered. So what's up, Drew? 1639 02:34:52.760 --> 02:35:00.520 You got unmute man? Oh yeah, oh yes, sir, Google. 1640 02:35:01.079 --> 02:35:03.319 Yeah. I was just this is this is this is somewhat not really 1641 02:35:03.319 --> 02:35:09.440 as related per se, But you kind of got me into like like learning 1642 02:35:09.440 --> 02:35:11.959 more about like like the I guess you said the flaws of natural theology anyway, 1643 02:35:13.040 --> 02:35:16.600 And I was reading through John chapter one, verse three, and I 1644 02:35:16.760 --> 02:35:20.959 noticed that like because when he says, when John says all things were made 1645 02:35:20.000 --> 02:35:24.479 through him and without him, nothing was made that was made? Isn't that 1646 02:35:24.840 --> 02:35:28.799 kind of like a sort of attag like like a like a trensidental claim sort 1647 02:35:28.799 --> 02:35:35.360 of see at least ware he's saying like a like God essentially is like the 1648 02:35:35.399 --> 02:35:39.319 ground of like all reality. I think, so, I mean I've made 1649 02:35:39.319 --> 02:35:43.000 that, I've argued. I've argued that if you follow through the logic of 1650 02:35:43.079 --> 02:35:48.239 John one, then creation itself is crystal centric. So yeah, exactly. 1651 02:35:48.920 --> 02:35:52.479 Yeah, That's just something that I was kind of like like noticing in a 1652 02:35:52.520 --> 02:35:54.959 way at least, and like that that got me to asking questions about like 1653 02:35:56.000 --> 02:35:58.319 the previous diness you were haven't with like trent On as well, when you're 1654 02:35:58.360 --> 02:36:03.719 exactly where where you said at the faithful Jews who lived before Christ in coronation 1655 02:36:03.879 --> 02:36:07.120 worship good at least And it's like that the like isn't that kind of like 1656 02:36:07.520 --> 02:36:11.440 because I answer this question as will like, isn't that kind of like have 1657 02:36:11.600 --> 02:36:16.840 like some kind of like perennial disconclusions in a way? I think? So, 1658 02:36:16.040 --> 02:36:20.879 Yeah, I mean I argued that if you were consistent with your natural 1659 02:36:20.920 --> 02:36:24.799 theology, there's no reason why it couldn't lead you to perennialism. In fact, 1660 02:36:24.840 --> 02:36:28.559 if you read the Garibie paper that we covered in the in the last 1661 02:36:28.760 --> 02:36:33.479 trent Horne response stream, the Garibie paper argues at the beginning, citing John 1662 02:36:33.559 --> 02:36:37.479 Hick, John Hick, if I recall, I'm going for a memory, 1663 02:36:37.600 --> 02:36:41.239 John Hick was responding to Richard Swinburn, and he says, there's no reason 1664 02:36:41.280 --> 02:36:46.520 to think that the natural theology basic attributes would necessarily lead you to Christianity. 1665 02:36:46.680 --> 02:36:52.120 Why cann't it leads you to perennialism if you're arguing that it's a lowest common 1666 02:36:52.120 --> 02:36:56.239 denominator or list of attributes anyway? Yeah, plus like Jesus himself even like 1667 02:36:56.280 --> 02:37:01.399 because what was the Jews themselves even like for like saying that they believe in 1668 02:37:01.440 --> 02:37:05.360 one God being the Father and then Christ hilf exactly. Yeah. So like 1669 02:37:05.920 --> 02:37:09.520 isn't it kind of like like refuting Transon? Absolutely? Yeah? If you 1670 02:37:09.559 --> 02:37:13.000 read this paper right here, Uh, the best response to all the Trent 1671 02:37:13.280 --> 02:37:20.520 uh sort of natural theology stuff is this paper right here by doctor Garribee called 1672 02:37:20.920 --> 02:37:22.760 Theistic Fallacies. I highly recommend it. We've you know, we covered it 1673 02:37:22.799 --> 02:37:26.159 from many years to people in the chat. If you want to hear the 1674 02:37:26.200 --> 02:37:31.639 link to read that and it kind of goes through the many fallacies involved in 1675 02:37:31.719 --> 02:37:33.520 natural theologies, not just one, but there's common ones that pop up, 1676 02:37:33.600 --> 02:37:45.840 like quantifier shift fallacy. So yeah, yeah, good questions. Paul Ruddell, 1677 02:37:45.920 --> 02:37:58.440 what's up? Man? Got an unmute broy Sorry about that? So 1678 02:37:58.520 --> 02:38:05.360 good. I must have been just a little bit behind. Well, first 1679 02:38:05.399 --> 02:38:07.760 of all, thank you very much for for hosting this, and I really 1680 02:38:07.879 --> 02:38:13.159 like here, thank you. We're almost out one thousand. I'm like right 1681 02:38:13.280 --> 02:38:20.040 below hitting a thousand lives ahead. My question is you're cutting out dog, 1682 02:38:20.159 --> 02:38:26.760 go ahead, okay, So my my my question is, okay, my 1683 02:38:26.959 --> 02:38:35.000 question is could we uh, could we say that that we could base our 1684 02:38:37.440 --> 02:38:41.639 our well, you know, first of all at Christ is king and that 1685 02:38:43.799 --> 02:38:50.040 two as as as orthodox now that we acknowledge that, and that he's king 1686 02:38:50.040 --> 02:38:58.079 and lord overall creation, that that having a godly monarchy would simply be an 1687 02:38:58.120 --> 02:39:03.920 acknowledgment of this reality, that that Christ is Christ is indeed king, and 1688 02:39:03.959 --> 02:39:11.120 that anything less than that would be kind of an unfortunate aberration from what should 1689 02:39:11.239 --> 02:39:15.840 or ought to be. Yeah, I would I would agree with that because 1690 02:39:15.879 --> 02:39:20.280 the idea of the monarch in like Byzantium, is that he's an icon of 1691 02:39:20.440 --> 02:39:24.079 God. He's an icon of the rulership. You know, they often used 1692 02:39:24.120 --> 02:39:28.840 imagery of David for the visinitsing Emperor. So he's kind of a dividic type 1693 02:39:28.840 --> 02:39:31.639 of king. He doesn't have the functions of a priest, but he has 1694 02:39:31.680 --> 02:39:37.399 the functions of God in terms of a dispenser of justice. So I think, 1695 02:39:37.440 --> 02:39:41.239 So, I mean, to me, that's obvious. Like I mean, 1696 02:39:41.239 --> 02:39:43.520 I'm not saying that to you. I'm not saying that to you to 1697 02:39:43.559 --> 02:39:46.719 be a smart ass. I'm saying, like, it's obvious in the history 1698 02:39:46.719 --> 02:39:52.719 of Orthodox theology and you know church history and the councils that that's that's how 1699 02:39:52.799 --> 02:39:58.520 obviously how they viewed it. So right, no, no, no following 1700 02:39:58.559 --> 02:40:05.719 that, couldn't we also, uh, can we also say that, I 1701 02:40:05.719 --> 02:40:13.079 mean, isn't this kind of like this the to to acknowledge that reality is 1702 02:40:13.120 --> 02:40:18.799 a you know, obviously it's an important part of our faith and it's a 1703 02:40:18.920 --> 02:40:22.600 you know, we could say, like a self bific belief if you will. 1704 02:40:22.639 --> 02:40:26.280 If I don't know, maybe beliefs aren't selfific in that way, but 1705 02:40:26.120 --> 02:40:43.120 if you, uh, but it is. Couldn't we say that that this 1706 02:40:43.120 --> 02:40:48.280 this could save us or prevent us from from from from the defilement or the 1707 02:40:48.360 --> 02:40:56.879 mire of modern day Paul politics, to to to realize that, you know, 1708 02:40:58.040 --> 02:41:01.639 Christ is the ultimate authority and the the in the whole universe, and 1709 02:41:01.680 --> 02:41:05.319 that everything that we might involve is going is going to be, you know, 1710 02:41:05.559 --> 02:41:11.639 fairly probable matter. I can so to what extent can we or should 1711 02:41:11.680 --> 02:41:16.479 we even involve ourselves in that? And also as a as as a component 1712 02:41:16.479 --> 02:41:26.440 of that question, can we can can we bring some godly influence to bear 1713 02:41:26.520 --> 02:41:28.799 in the existing government? And this is a bit of a follow up question 1714 02:41:28.040 --> 02:41:35.280 to a to a previous speaker, but I mean, at what point are 1715 02:41:35.319 --> 02:41:41.719 we able to cross the rubicon two to bring a godly influence to bear in 1716 02:41:41.799 --> 02:41:45.680 government? If you're saying that it's not our place to do so, or 1717 02:41:45.680 --> 02:41:48.200 we don't want to do that by force, which is understandable because we believe 1718 02:41:48.200 --> 02:41:52.920 in free will. No, i'd said at the beginning. Maybe you didn't 1719 02:41:52.920 --> 02:41:56.440 hear the it didn't hear the very beginning, but I said that. I 1720 02:41:56.440 --> 02:42:01.840 mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with Christians taking action to do things 1721 02:42:01.840 --> 02:42:05.799 in politics. It's not what I'm interested in, but I don't think there's 1722 02:42:05.799 --> 02:42:11.040 anything wrong with people doing it. I support people doing it that's there, 1723 02:42:11.040 --> 02:42:13.799 like their providential situation where that's what you know they're led to do. They 1724 02:42:13.840 --> 02:42:18.120 should absolutely and I just said that they would probably be more effective on a 1725 02:42:18.159 --> 02:42:24.280 local level than like national politics. So so you know, I'm all for 1726 02:42:24.920 --> 02:42:26.840 you know, I mean, there should be people, We should be people 1727 02:42:26.879 --> 02:42:30.879 having people in all of the areas, Like we should be feeling the arts, 1728 02:42:30.920 --> 02:42:33.319 we should be feeling media, we should be feeling you know, because 1729 02:42:33.559 --> 02:42:39.680 if you're not entering monastic life, then it doesn't make sense to pretend you're 1730 02:42:39.719 --> 02:42:45.040 a monk. So a lot of people in the Orthodox world want to pretend 1731 02:42:45.159 --> 02:42:48.239 like they're you know, pseudo monks or they're uh, you know, they're 1732 02:42:48.239 --> 02:42:52.680 gonna have a family and they're going to be, you know, working in 1733 02:42:52.719 --> 02:42:54.959 a factory. But to think they're monks, and it's like, you're not 1734 02:42:56.040 --> 02:42:58.239 a monk, you're not called to that life. And if you're going to 1735 02:42:58.280 --> 02:43:00.719 be married, you're going to be in the world and you're gonna have to 1736 02:43:00.760 --> 02:43:03.239 have a job, you're gonna have to work with finances, you're gonna have 1737 02:43:03.280 --> 02:43:07.360 to understand how the world works. And so a lot of people nothing about 1738 02:43:07.360 --> 02:43:11.719 you. But a lot of people use pseudo monasticism and pretending to be a 1739 02:43:11.760 --> 02:43:15.799 monk as a cloak for their own laziness and their own sloth. And I 1740 02:43:15.840 --> 02:43:18.200 think that's silly. So you got to grow out of that, be more 1741 02:43:18.200 --> 02:43:22.920 mature than that. But not everybody has a call to want to be in 1742 02:43:22.959 --> 02:43:30.120 public life or to want to be in politics. Michael Cisco really has that 1743 02:43:30.239 --> 02:43:31.719 desire. He wants to do it. I'm not his spiritual father, but 1744 02:43:33.200 --> 02:43:35.360 you know, I told Michael, like, yeah, that's great if you 1745 02:43:35.399 --> 02:43:41.000 want to if that's your calling, if you feel that desire, you know, 1746 02:43:41.040 --> 02:43:43.879 it'd be like, hey, I'm a filmmaker, I want to be 1747 02:43:43.920 --> 02:43:46.959 an I want to be in making films and be Orthodox. Oh I can't 1748 02:43:46.959 --> 02:43:50.360 do that. That's the world. That's worldly. No, that's crazy. 1749 02:43:50.920 --> 02:43:54.120 I mean that's the very mindset that I think is the Protestant idea, Like 1750 02:43:54.760 --> 02:43:58.600 the monk is the person who decided to renounce the world, okay, and 1751 02:43:58.680 --> 02:44:03.159 for lay people to pretend like they're monks and act like, well, I'm 1752 02:44:03.200 --> 02:44:05.639 too. The playoffs for everything and I will never be involved myself into anything. 1753 02:44:05.719 --> 02:44:09.159 It's like to me, a lot of that's just being slimy in my 1754 02:44:09.200 --> 02:44:13.159 opinion. So no, I mean I think, I mean if you don't, 1755 02:44:13.559 --> 02:44:18.319 if we don't do this, then we're gonna be ruled over by degenerates. 1756 02:44:18.360 --> 02:44:22.360 So do you want to be ruled by degenerates or do you want to 1757 02:44:22.399 --> 02:44:26.760 act, you know, in society in a virtuous way. It's like, 1758 02:44:28.040 --> 02:44:35.959 you know anyway, that's my take. Appreciate those questions, Paul, you're 1759 02:44:35.000 --> 02:44:41.040 kind of cutting out, not trying to be rude. But so let's move 1760 02:44:41.079 --> 02:44:43.440 through these quick. I'm gonna I wanna try to get to the last few 1761 02:44:43.479 --> 02:44:48.040 people here in this on this topic. But I do have to remind you, 1762 02:44:48.040 --> 02:44:50.280 guys, if we do have a show sponsor, we got some more 1763 02:44:50.280 --> 02:44:54.239 super chests I need to get to. But look, guys, uh, 1764 02:44:54.200 --> 02:44:58.600 I gotta tell you this. You have to hear this. I'm gonna put 1765 02:44:58.639 --> 02:45:03.799 you on something crazy real quick. Most of these zuomer Jim Brooks assuming macro 1766 02:45:03.879 --> 02:45:09.000 guzzling synthetic dyes and synthetic sweeteners on the daily. They don't even know it. 1767 02:45:09.200 --> 02:45:13.040 Goofy af. There's nothing great about that. 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Each dose of chad Mode contains the kick of a cup 1782 02:46:22.239 --> 02:46:28.159 and a half of coffee, delivering a surge of energy alongside essential vitamins, 1783 02:46:28.200 --> 02:46:33.040 minerals, amino acids, and herbal extracts. Chad mode will allow you to 1784 02:46:33.120 --> 02:46:37.079 fire your boss and dominate anyone who opposes you. Chad mode will make you 1785 02:46:37.159 --> 02:49:43.040 more dominant in your daily life. So proceed with caution. M pass if 1786 02:49:43.079 --> 02:49:50.040 do you consider these Seven day Adventists to be a cult? Mm hmm. 1787 02:49:52.680 --> 02:49:58.200 They're kind of on a They're kind of on a thin line there. I 1788 02:49:58.399 --> 02:50:00.559 don't know if i'd go so far as to say a cold, but like 1789 02:50:01.120 --> 02:50:05.040 kind of on the edge of it, so I'd say an evidence are almost 1790 02:50:05.079 --> 02:50:11.920 culled pretty close. They definitely spawned cults like Joe's Witnesses. So one more 1791 02:50:11.040 --> 02:50:16.000 question. I had also into a family member and their Seven Day Adventus and 1792 02:50:16.040 --> 02:50:20.280 we were talking about, uh, like like, how does the Bible prove 1793 02:50:20.280 --> 02:50:24.200 that it's the word of God? And I was referring to you would have 1794 02:50:24.280 --> 02:50:26.879 to extrapolate thats or you have to use you have to use something other than 1795 02:50:26.879 --> 02:50:31.399 the Bible to prove that, and they kept saying that the Bible does it 1796 02:50:31.559 --> 02:50:33.280 need to because it's a world of like it's like a circular argument, and 1797 02:50:33.280 --> 02:50:37.479 they said it's the only thing that you could use a circular argument for that 1798 02:50:37.639 --> 02:50:41.719 is there something I could get around this, like logic, I just I 1799 02:50:41.719 --> 02:50:43.760 don't know how to fight like they just keep they just keep screaming that I'd 1800 02:50:43.799 --> 02:50:50.719 be able to say to that. I mean, if maybe they're confused about 1801 02:50:50.760 --> 02:50:56.280 the idea that the transcendental argument is a type of circularity. But the point 1802 02:50:56.280 --> 02:51:01.399 of that is to say that everybody's argument at a super fundament until level is 1803 02:51:01.440 --> 02:51:03.520 going to ultimately be circular because there's going to be a certain point where you 1804 02:51:03.559 --> 02:51:07.520 can't appeal to something else to justify that thing. And so that's what we 1805 02:51:07.600 --> 02:51:13.319 mean by grounding it out or or it becoming quote circular. It's not saying 1806 02:51:13.360 --> 02:51:18.920 that you can now make circular arguments at any point, because in terms of 1807 02:51:18.319 --> 02:51:24.760 first order argumentation sort of normal argumentation, circular arguments are fallacy. But that's 1808 02:51:24.799 --> 02:51:28.559 a different category error to think that all things are proven are known in the 1809 02:51:28.600 --> 02:51:35.440 same way. So, but I mean there's a lot of there's a lot 1810 02:51:35.479 --> 02:51:39.879 of different ways that that conversation might go. I mean, I think the 1811 02:51:39.879 --> 02:51:46.760 best evidence for inspiration is the fulfilled messianic prophecies, So that's an evidence, 1812 02:51:46.239 --> 02:51:52.479 and evidences can function as types of arguments or proofs. I think the ultimate 1813 02:51:52.520 --> 02:51:54.200 strongest proof is a transient argument for God. But that doesn't mean that we're 1814 02:51:54.200 --> 02:51:58.280 like opposed to evidences. Now you have to use evidences for sure. So 1815 02:52:01.319 --> 02:52:05.760 for the people in the chat that missed the super chat question, the first 1816 02:52:05.840 --> 02:52:13.159 question was about Mary and orthodox view versus romccalthy view, and Mary and I 1817 02:52:13.159 --> 02:52:18.520 said, we don't leave in ecconception. I'm sending this from three thousand feet 1818 02:52:18.520 --> 02:52:20.559 in the air using Delta wi FI. Well, thank you, mister Anderson. 1819 02:52:20.559 --> 02:52:26.559 I appreciate that certainly. Three twenty four asked me, is Michael Saylor 1820 02:52:26.559 --> 02:52:30.680 correct about bitcoin being decentralized? I said yes. He said, is this 1821 02:52:30.799 --> 02:52:33.399 enough to prevent the elites from a global control agenda? I said, I 1822 02:52:33.440 --> 02:52:39.239 don't think bitcoin is alone enough to save us from global les trying to bring 1823 02:52:39.280 --> 02:52:46.719 about n WO. But it's definitely a big key thing for our side. 1824 02:52:46.959 --> 02:52:50.120 But you know, life is much more than just economics, right, But 1825 02:52:50.159 --> 02:52:54.239 that's a big economic plus for us. But I mean, you know, 1826 02:52:54.319 --> 02:53:01.280 life has education, life has media, entertainment. I mean, so life 1827 02:53:01.319 --> 02:53:05.159 isn't just economics. I don't think that bigcoin alone is enough to beat the 1828 02:53:05.200 --> 02:53:09.559 New World order, because the new World order is not purely and solely economic. 1829 02:53:09.639 --> 02:53:13.639 It's also spiritual, it's also mental, it's it's a lot of different 1830 02:53:13.680 --> 02:53:16.840 things. It's a full spectrum dominance approach. How does bitcoin fit into the 1831 02:53:16.840 --> 02:53:20.520 Biblical end times? I have no idea. And then I said BMX ninety 1832 02:53:20.559 --> 02:53:22.719 sixty six ten bucks, thank you so much. So that was where the 1833 02:53:22.719 --> 02:53:26.799 super chat said. When I came back, it was still muted. So 1834 02:53:28.000 --> 02:53:31.440 that selah, what's up, Let's move through these if we can to get 1835 02:53:31.440 --> 02:53:46.760 everybody on. You got a mute? Oh so sorry, Yeah, what's 1836 02:53:46.799 --> 02:53:52.760 up? Uh? Yeah? I had a question about the Trinity and the 1837 02:53:52.760 --> 02:53:56.799 Gold's attorney, and then I had a question. I had a debate with 1838 02:53:56.840 --> 02:54:00.479 a Muslim the other day and he told me it doesn't make sense in the 1839 02:54:00.600 --> 02:54:03.600 Orthodox you that only the father of the saiety. Could you expand on that? 1840 02:54:05.680 --> 02:54:09.120 Yeah, I would say the best answer to this question you should watch 1841 02:54:09.360 --> 02:54:16.319 the bo brantson Jake the Muslim metaphysician debate, because they have an entire debate 1842 02:54:16.399 --> 02:54:20.639 about this question. And the point is that because one member of a class 1843 02:54:20.680 --> 02:54:26.079 possesses an attribute, it doesn't follow that every member of the class must possess 1844 02:54:26.120 --> 02:54:30.360 that attribute to be in that class, so divinity is not reduced to a 1845 02:54:30.399 --> 02:54:35.079 sayity is the point? Okay? And also he made another point about the 1846 02:54:35.280 --> 02:54:41.280 illegitimate canonization of saints in the Orthodox Church, like, would you accept, 1847 02:54:41.360 --> 02:54:45.680 for example, the canonization of like say, the Russian Stars or like Nicholas 1848 02:54:45.680 --> 02:54:50.879 the Second or what's what's the rvvie them meant to be? I mean, 1849 02:54:50.440 --> 02:54:52.440 as far as I know, I would like, why would that be a 1850 02:54:52.520 --> 02:54:56.799 legitimate What do you mean? I haven't heard of the illegitimacy argument. I 1851 02:54:56.799 --> 02:55:00.120 don't know about what is this? Well, he was mostly speaking from from 1852 02:55:00.120 --> 02:55:03.879 an ethical perspective, but it doesn't really make sense to canonize someone like Nicholas 1853 02:55:03.879 --> 02:55:05.799 the Second. But I don't really I don't really know how to respond to. 1854 02:55:07.000 --> 02:55:11.760 Well. My understanding is that typically the Orthodox view of saints and canonization 1855 02:55:11.959 --> 02:55:16.159 is not did they live their entire life with the highest level of moral purity? 1856 02:55:16.760 --> 02:55:22.639 It's what types of actions did they do that might have led to a 1857 02:55:24.079 --> 02:55:28.559 supremely virtuous action such as martyrdom. So the thief on the cross did not 1858 02:55:28.639 --> 02:55:33.280 live a life of the highest virtue, but he did repent towards the end 1859 02:55:33.280 --> 02:55:37.559 of his life and so he's a saint. So I think Samson was a 1860 02:55:37.559 --> 02:55:43.799 saint. It's odd to me when I hear Orthodox priests famous ones argue that 1861 02:55:43.799 --> 02:55:46.639 Samson isn't a saint. I mean, he's a type of Christ. He 1862 02:55:46.760 --> 02:55:48.520 obviously was repenting at the end of his life. He's an image of Christ 1863 02:55:50.360 --> 02:55:56.479 pulling down the gates of Hades with the Temple of Philistine. So I don't 1864 02:55:56.520 --> 02:55:58.440 know. To me, it's odd that anybody would question whether Sampson is a 1865 02:55:58.440 --> 02:56:05.399 saint. But yeah, good questions. I'm not really familiar with why people 1866 02:56:05.440 --> 02:56:09.959 wouldn't think that the ours are saying. To me, that suggests like Western 1867 02:56:11.559 --> 02:56:16.360 people who don't like Russia would think that's probably what's going on. I'm guessing 1868 02:56:16.399 --> 02:56:18.760 I don't know, though. Joe Bama, what's up, Joe Bama? 1869 02:56:18.079 --> 02:56:22.920 Uh? There you Joe, We got Joe Bamba, my wife, Michael, 1870 02:56:22.840 --> 02:56:26.000 Hey, what's up? Jake? Can you hear me? All right? 1871 02:56:26.079 --> 02:56:30.399 Long time fan here, Thanks for letting me talk. Sure, this 1872 02:56:30.479 --> 02:56:35.360 is kind of an elaboration on what I think Paul was asking earlier. But 1873 02:56:35.079 --> 02:56:39.959 unless I like misheard what you were saying earlier, it made it sound like 1874 02:56:39.040 --> 02:56:46.360 you kind of oppose like top down evangelization of America. You know, whether 1875 02:56:46.440 --> 02:56:50.239 that's because it's not practical or because we you know, have free will to 1876 02:56:50.280 --> 02:56:54.079 turn the christ you a sort of bottom up with but basically I just don't 1877 02:56:54.079 --> 02:56:58.680 think it's realistic. So I mean, is it possible that, uh, 1878 02:57:00.239 --> 02:57:03.120 I don't know. Let's say Trump gets elected and then Trump gets interested in 1879 02:57:03.280 --> 02:57:07.319 orthodoxy, and then Trump trusts to make American orthodox I mean, I don't 1880 02:57:07.319 --> 02:57:09.879 think that would work, but is it possible. It's possible, it just 1881 02:57:09.879 --> 02:57:15.159 doesn't seem likely, right, Yeah, So that's a good point. I 1882 02:57:15.200 --> 02:57:18.440 guess My question is basically, like, you know, clearly we want to 1883 02:57:18.440 --> 02:57:22.680 live in a Christian society and we want our laws to reflect Christian ethics. 1884 02:57:22.959 --> 02:57:28.239 You know, even if the majority of the people in the country oppose what 1885 02:57:28.399 --> 02:57:31.440 you know, the Bible would say, you know, think abortion or something 1886 02:57:31.479 --> 02:57:35.559 like that. So my question is, like, how far can we, 1887 02:57:35.600 --> 02:57:39.520 you know, trust in a bottom up approach when it doesn't seem to like 1888 02:57:39.639 --> 02:57:43.399 be working very well well. I mean, if there is no other options, 1889 02:57:43.440 --> 02:57:46.719 like what are what are you supposed to do? Like, I mean, 1890 02:57:48.120 --> 02:57:52.319 when the appropriate time calls for it, then we have to accept martyrdom. 1891 02:57:52.360 --> 02:58:00.840 I mean that's that's the Christian approach. So, uh Benjamin, what's 1892 02:58:00.920 --> 02:58:03.319 up. I'm not trying to be ride. I'm trying to get through all 1893 02:58:03.399 --> 02:58:07.760 the people. There's like eight people in a row here, so trying to 1894 02:58:07.760 --> 02:58:16.280 move through. What's up, Benjamin? All right, Benjamin, can't connect, 1895 02:58:16.360 --> 02:58:22.239 so we'll move on to the next person. Are you there? Uh 1896 02:58:22.200 --> 02:58:26.840 yeah, what's up? Dude? Yeah, I'm a big fan, kind 1897 02:58:26.840 --> 02:58:35.319 of nervous Soka. Uh so, uh so trying what's your question? I'm 1898 02:58:35.319 --> 02:58:39.600 trying to move through some people, So what's your what's your what? I 1899 02:58:39.639 --> 02:58:45.600 wrote down three questions. So the first one is I remember watching through your 1900 02:58:46.319 --> 02:58:52.760 critiques of Jordan Peterson with you know, classical liberalism and at that time talking 1901 02:58:52.799 --> 02:58:58.159 about Christopher Langon. Oh yeah yeah, the High, the High IQ, 1902 02:58:58.000 --> 02:59:11.040 the Roadhouse, Bartender High IQ Brobo. So would that ever happen or there? 1903 02:59:11.040 --> 02:59:16.000 He's very precise about how an interview has to be conducted, and he 1904 02:59:16.319 --> 02:59:20.520 wants a lot of questions, and I just basically have free flowing conversations. 1905 02:59:20.559 --> 02:59:28.760 So I never really followed back up with I just like to have like imprompt 1906 02:59:28.799 --> 02:59:37.799 to improv conversations. So that's typically pretty much. And if you I guess 1907 02:59:37.799 --> 02:59:41.360 that the one would be. The second one would be, do you have 1908 02:59:41.399 --> 02:59:48.760 any books on like rhetoric or it's because you know, when people when I 1909 02:59:48.799 --> 02:59:52.879 mean, if I was going to talk to somebody and they, you know, 1910 02:59:52.959 --> 02:59:58.799 insulted me, it kind of short circuits my thinking. I can't really 1911 02:59:58.840 --> 03:00:01.280 get I can't really give a like a response to that. I think it's 1912 03:00:01.559 --> 03:00:03.920 I think it's kind of supposed to do that, right, And that's kind 1913 03:00:03.920 --> 03:00:09.239 of the point of an insult is to like get you all messed up and 1914 03:00:09.319 --> 03:00:11.600 confused and you know, not paying attention to the issue at hand. So 1915 03:00:11.639 --> 03:00:20.000 that's probably what it's meant to do. Yeah, but just like, Okay, 1916 03:00:20.159 --> 03:00:28.399 I guess if that's the solution, well go ahead, what's the the 1917 03:00:28.559 --> 03:00:31.479 one. I don't know a good book on ridd If you're asking, you 1918 03:00:31.479 --> 03:00:35.000 could ask, I bet Richard Grove does. I would ask Send a tweet 1919 03:00:35.040 --> 03:00:39.680 to Richard Grove and ask him he knows a lot of those older classical pedagogy 1920 03:00:39.719 --> 03:00:52.879 texts are there. And then talking like that, I can hear the insults. 1921 03:00:54.879 --> 03:00:56.799 Yeah, you're cutting out, man, I can't hear. I'm sorry. 1922 03:00:58.760 --> 03:01:01.959 Yeah, just ask Richard Grove what was a good textbook on rhetoricas ill? 1923 03:01:01.000 --> 03:01:05.600 But you he knows one, Maximos, what's up? Man, Let's 1924 03:01:05.600 --> 03:01:15.760 get through the last few people here? Hello, what's up? Oh? 1925 03:01:16.200 --> 03:01:22.040 Yeah? So my question. I'm an Oltle calendarist, and so my perspective 1926 03:01:22.120 --> 03:01:28.920 is that we basically share the faith confession of faith. We basically share the 1927 03:01:28.000 --> 03:01:35.440 idea that the cumunism is ecclesiological heresy, and we share that, we share 1928 03:01:35.520 --> 03:01:41.799 basically the idea that you should not be commute with heretics. What's a certain 1929 03:01:41.840 --> 03:01:46.840 line is across? And I think it just where you're cutting out, bro. 1930 03:01:48.559 --> 03:01:52.079 So I'm sorry that I heard you say that we're your old counteress and 1931 03:01:52.159 --> 03:01:54.600 where's the line? I don't know the line, but I don't think that 1932 03:01:54.680 --> 03:02:01.840 it makes sense to think that, Well, the line is everybody's immediately blacked 1933 03:02:01.879 --> 03:02:05.959 out, and every lady should immediately decide who's blacked out. It just leads 1934 03:02:05.959 --> 03:02:18.360 to infinite schisms, is my view. J T. Orthodox So superchat rebel 1935 03:02:18.719 --> 03:02:22.959 rowboll three dollars. Can you discuss Yahweh's origins? Well, I believe in 1936 03:02:22.000 --> 03:02:26.239 the Bible, So what do you mean it's origins? And the shift from 1937 03:02:26.239 --> 03:02:28.799 polytheism to monotheism in Israel. Yeah, I don't believe that. So if 1938 03:02:28.840 --> 03:02:35.280 you watch my debate with Daniel Hikikachu the Muslim or if you want to go 1939 03:02:35.360 --> 03:02:39.440 watch this video right here about the Jewish Trinity, I do not believe that 1940 03:02:39.479 --> 03:02:46.760 there was a shift from polytheism to unitarianism in Israel. So thank you for 1941 03:02:46.799 --> 03:02:52.000 that super chat. Though I've only found Protestants and Michael Heizer, I mean, 1942 03:02:52.000 --> 03:02:54.520 I believe in the Divine Council, but I mean the Orthodox to you 1943 03:02:54.600 --> 03:02:58.879 is that the Trinity is an Old Testament teaching and that was the whole lynchpin 1944 03:02:58.959 --> 03:03:03.479 of my argument against uh Daniel Kikachu and if your wife Sam Shimun, his 1945 03:03:03.600 --> 03:03:09.440 whole argument against Muslims is the same position. What's up? Yeah, Hi, 1946 03:03:09.239 --> 03:03:13.600 I was recently down night in London and there was a sort of famous 1947 03:03:13.600 --> 03:03:18.680 Apologies speaking and he usually goes for like sort of it's sort of like a 1948 03:03:18.680 --> 03:03:22.040 proto humanist sort of view because it's sort of it's sort of based on the 1949 03:03:22.399 --> 03:03:26.639 fact of like we know where the church is, but we don't know where 1950 03:03:26.639 --> 03:03:31.040 it is. Is that Bob yeah, the Builder? Yeah, yeah, 1951 03:03:31.079 --> 03:03:33.479 I know Bob, And we've done a couple of podcasts, but we had 1952 03:03:33.479 --> 03:03:37.440 a debate about ecumenism as well, and I've yeah, I've sort of been 1953 03:03:37.479 --> 03:03:41.799 confused because it sort of seems like where he draws lines for certain things, 1954 03:03:41.879 --> 03:03:43.879 he doesn't draw them for others. Yeah, and that's that was actually the 1955 03:03:43.920 --> 03:03:50.079 very argument I made the Barb. Yeah, and I feel like it's maybe 1956 03:03:50.159 --> 03:03:54.280 situate situational because his sort of area is sort of in speakers corner, just 1957 03:03:54.319 --> 03:04:00.719 sort of debating like sort of Daragandist, sort of Islamic sort of people just 1958 03:04:00.840 --> 03:04:03.600 coming at him all the time, right, and there's loads of Christians in 1959 03:04:03.639 --> 03:04:07.200 that park. So do you think that there's times where maybe we have to 1960 03:04:07.239 --> 03:04:13.360 be less sectarian and sort of unite even in the face of maybe some secondary 1961 03:04:13.440 --> 03:04:16.600 doctrines being sort of well, I don't think we have to concede that those 1962 03:04:16.639 --> 03:04:22.040 doctrines are secondary. I mean, but if you look at the track record 1963 03:04:22.079 --> 03:04:26.319 that we have here, I mean, I do podcasts and talks with Sam 1964 03:04:26.360 --> 03:04:28.639 Chamun, We've done it with Bob, I've done it with Tim Gordon, 1965 03:04:30.120 --> 03:04:33.159 and there's always the possibility of common cause. We just did a podcast not 1966 03:04:33.200 --> 03:04:37.760 too long ago with Inspiring Philosophy, So there's always the possibility of making common 1967 03:04:37.840 --> 03:04:45.719 cause without admitting to ecclesiology being secondary. So you know, we can always 1968 03:04:45.760 --> 03:04:48.559 know our differences and at the same time say well here we agree against, 1969 03:04:48.559 --> 03:04:52.520 you know, the Muslims. So I think both can be true. Yeah, 1970 03:04:52.559 --> 03:04:56.559 and if there's not like an Orthodox church did by what is sort of 1971 03:04:56.600 --> 03:04:58.000 the best thing to do? Because I've sort of lived in a place where 1972 03:04:58.000 --> 03:05:03.760 there's already got anger could the Church's Church of England sort of churches and there's 1973 03:05:03.760 --> 03:05:07.040 some maybe Catholics, right, And it's sort of a confusing miss because it's 1974 03:05:07.040 --> 03:05:11.079 sort of like if it is the one true church, it's sort of what 1975 03:05:11.399 --> 03:05:16.319 can we do if we cannot sort of reach that body. You just do 1976 03:05:16.399 --> 03:05:18.399 the best that you can. I mean I had a situation where I was 1977 03:05:18.440 --> 03:05:22.040 in that same situation for many years, so I would just get a prayer 1978 03:05:22.040 --> 03:05:24.639 book, get an Orthodox study Bible, and do the best that you can. 1979 03:05:24.760 --> 03:05:28.120 I mean, you know, God only expects you to do what you 1980 03:05:28.159 --> 03:05:35.159 can. So all right, I'm about I'm about We got another eight people, 1981 03:05:35.200 --> 03:05:39.600 so I apologize. We'll have another We do open forums all the time, 1982 03:05:39.639 --> 03:05:41.680 so just be ready if you want to hop on another time. But 1983 03:05:41.840 --> 03:05:43.079 I'm getting pretty tired, so I don't know if I can keep going anymore. 1984 03:05:43.360 --> 03:05:50.040 Bug Man, ten dollars, What do you think about be brother k 1985 03:05:52.680 --> 03:05:56.840 I think that you know, in the Orthodox world you have to be under 1986 03:05:56.760 --> 03:06:01.920 authority, so you can't be a non canonical just doing whatever you want in 1987 03:06:01.959 --> 03:06:07.879 the Orthodox world. So you know, I've never promoted people that are that 1988 03:06:07.920 --> 03:06:13.440 way. And the reason for that is has nothing to do with oh, 1989 03:06:13.559 --> 03:06:16.840 you're secretly scared you don't like that person. It's none of that. It's 1990 03:06:16.920 --> 03:06:24.000 just that, you know, in the Orthodox system and approach, like, 1991 03:06:24.079 --> 03:06:26.879 no man takes that authority on to himself. You have to have approval to 1992 03:06:28.079 --> 03:06:33.399 teach. Even if what you say is right or wrong or what like let's 1993 03:06:33.399 --> 03:06:37.639 say that test case scenario, everything you're saying is correct, like that still 1994 03:06:37.680 --> 03:06:43.719 doesn't mean that you have the authority of blessing to teach because for example, 1995 03:06:43.440 --> 03:06:48.440 and I'm not saying this about any specific person, I'm giving example, if 1996 03:06:48.440 --> 03:06:50.959 you go look at Patristic faith in the way that Father Deco Anaias approaches these 1997 03:06:50.959 --> 03:06:56.440 things, he doesn't promote or allow anybody to be promoted or to teach or 1998 03:06:56.440 --> 03:07:03.239 whatever. Link anybody who doesn't have a specific episcopal blessing, and you know, 1999 03:07:03.520 --> 03:07:09.120 maybe sometimes there's situations where people's status is foggy and I don't know, 2000 03:07:09.159 --> 03:07:13.559 I don't I can't judge that person individually. But there's a reason why, 2001 03:07:13.079 --> 03:07:18.200 as Paul says, no man takes it upon himself to teach, and I 2002 03:07:18.200 --> 03:07:20.280 don't want to teach, like I always feel like I kind of how can 2003 03:07:20.319 --> 03:07:22.920 I not teach? And then it's always kind to get drawn back in, 2004 03:07:24.159 --> 03:07:30.479 like Michael Corleone says, and go father two or three or whatever. Anyway, 2005 03:07:31.079 --> 03:07:33.959 Yeah, so you got to be under authority, and you know, 2006 03:07:35.280 --> 03:07:37.559 people might if people wonder, why, well, how come they don't have 2007 03:07:37.559 --> 03:07:39.719 the blessing because they're saying a lot of true things. Well, there might 2008 03:07:39.760 --> 03:07:43.959 be something that you don't know about this person that makes them not fit to 2009 03:07:43.000 --> 03:07:50.040 teach. So I'm not saying that specifically about any person. I'm just saying 2010 03:07:50.040 --> 03:07:54.639 that the wisdom of the Church's approach to approved and non approved teachers is that 2011 03:07:54.840 --> 03:07:58.399 just because somebody says something right, there's a lot of Protestants to say a 2012 03:07:58.440 --> 03:08:01.319 lot of right things, but that doesn't mean to have the blessing to teach 2013 03:08:05.479 --> 03:08:09.799 anyway. Thank you guys a great chat tonight. Hopefully we brought a little 2014 03:08:09.799 --> 03:08:13.920 bit of insight to the history and the question of the role and relationship between 2015 03:08:15.000 --> 03:08:20.000 church and state, and we're a little bit more enlightened about what the issues 2016 03:08:20.040 --> 03:08:24.680 are and we don't get caught up just in Internet stuff.