1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:46,960 The the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 2 00:00:48,439 --> 00:01:49,519 the the the the the the the the the the the the the don the 3 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:45,000 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 4 00:02:45,719 --> 00:03:40,560 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 5 00:03:43,800 --> 00:04:44,600 the the the the the the the the the the the the the the the 6 00:04:46,519 --> 00:06:38,199 the do the budding to the bodd All right, what's up? Welcome to 7 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:44,199 a discussion that I think is timely given a lot of the Internet drama and 8 00:06:44,279 --> 00:06:50,839 debates and discussions which you might think would be about theology, history, geopolitics, 9 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:58,199 a relationship between church and state. But unfortunately it turns out no, 10 00:06:58,720 --> 00:07:02,199 most of the discussion really has nothing to do with that, and so I 11 00:07:02,199 --> 00:07:08,560 thought it would be very timely to delve into this subject and get into the 12 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:13,279 history of the question of the role of church and state, how they relate 13 00:07:13,319 --> 00:07:17,680 to one another. Is there a superior relationship between one to the other, 14 00:07:17,879 --> 00:07:21,839 is one above the other? Does authority derive from one to the other, 15 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:34,759 Or perhaps they are completely unrelated, independent spheres. Perhaps the state is some 16 00:07:34,800 --> 00:07:45,279 sort of Satanic entity in itself, as some believe. In what sense is 17 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:54,439 Jesus quote unquote the king when people refer to Christ the king, and what 18 00:07:54,560 --> 00:08:00,319 about the historic confessions between Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox, how would they treated 19 00:08:00,360 --> 00:08:07,199 this question? Is there commonality between anybody Orthodox and Catholics? Is there commonality 20 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:20,800 between Protestants and Orthodox at all? What about cesero Papism or Erascianism. So 21 00:08:20,839 --> 00:08:24,839 tonight we're gonna get into that. It's just too ripe of a topic not 22 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,279 to discuss, given that everyone's talking about it. And the thing that surprised 23 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:33,039 me I tried to get into Lauren Chen's space. She did a space where 24 00:08:33,039 --> 00:08:37,480 she was inviting people to come discuss the topic. I assumed this meant the 25 00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:43,840 theological, historical, biblical history view of this church fathers patristic view. No, 26 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,879 had nothing to do with that. It was only about whether or not 27 00:08:50,960 --> 00:09:03,639 this phrase can be said and is it anti anti Shemitic? Right, So 28 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:09,159 I didn't really have anything to do with the question of what is the correct 29 00:09:09,240 --> 00:09:13,200 teaching, but rather censorship and the phrase. And I don't fault anybody for 30 00:09:13,879 --> 00:09:18,440 pointing out the freedom of speech and the ability to say this and to fight 31 00:09:18,519 --> 00:09:26,080 against people that want this kind of speech shut down. But it's like you 32 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,120 know so much of what happens in today's Twitter sphere, public sphere, debate 33 00:09:31,279 --> 00:09:37,960 debates sphere, there's never any context. People don't know what the history of 34 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,320 the topics are, they don't know the debates, they don't know the correct 35 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:50,240 view theologically speaking, and so it just ends up being these sort of scream 36 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:56,960 squabbles where people want to say names back and forth and don't have any theological 37 00:09:56,000 --> 00:10:03,519 grounding or historical background to understand what Protestants have believed, Have they evolved? 38 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:07,759 What Roman Catholics I believe have they evolved? And what's the classic Orthodox teaching, 39 00:10:07,799 --> 00:10:13,080 which as we know, is ossified set in stone. It's so boring. 40 00:10:13,159 --> 00:10:18,440 They don't change, they don't evolve. It's like they're so so just 41 00:10:18,600 --> 00:10:22,799 ossified. They don't even evolve or whatever are They just stay, which is 42 00:10:24,679 --> 00:10:33,879 precisely what we want. Coffee with Sister j which is the opposite of other 43 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:41,679 coffees with people who want to evolve the doctrines. Now tonight we're gonna be 44 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:48,759 talking about some topics that are gonna be really difficult for a lot of people. 45 00:10:50,000 --> 00:10:54,639 Protestants are gonna have a hard time tonight. Uh. People said, 46 00:10:54,679 --> 00:10:58,519 I haven't looked at your channel in a while. Now you look like Curtis 47 00:10:58,639 --> 00:11:03,039 Jarvin. That's funny because there might be a little overlap with Curtis Yarvin type 48 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:09,320 of views tonight. As everybody always points out, it's going to be at 49 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:16,799 a little difficult for Protestants and even perhaps for some Roman Catholics. However, 50 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:22,039 I will say this from the outset, most traditional minded Roman Catholics and traditional 51 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:31,320 minded Orthodox and a few scant groups amongst classical Protestants do have kind of common 52 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:35,320 ground here. We do typically agree that there is a social teaching of the 53 00:11:35,399 --> 00:11:41,519 church and a teaching of the state. Does the church have any official teaching 54 00:11:41,879 --> 00:11:46,399 on the role of the state, its limits, its boundaries, its domains, 55 00:11:48,159 --> 00:11:54,000 its rights. Or perhaps we're supposed to be libertarian, Maybe we're supposed 56 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:56,559 to be against the state. Maybe we're supposed to be anarcho pacifist hippie. 57 00:11:56,600 --> 00:12:03,600 Jesus followers being Jesus was like cool dude or whatever. Men. He always 58 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:07,320 he always says, he'll take take a stone out of your own eye before 59 00:12:07,399 --> 00:12:11,399 you throw it at the other people or whatever, and like, you know, 60 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,600 just love people and be cool, man. That's like what he said. 61 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:18,240 He was like a homeless hippie or whatever, really homeless hippie. So 62 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:22,200 these are the people, of course, that have no idea that Jesus is 63 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,159 the second person of the God, had no idea of all the Messianic prophecies 64 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:33,039 all throughout the Old Testament about the conversion of nations and states. Yes you 65 00:12:33,120 --> 00:12:37,120 heard me right, nation states, nations and states kingdoms in the Messianic era. 66 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:43,480 Why oh oh, you hadn't thought about that, had you? Even 67 00:12:43,519 --> 00:12:48,879 though it's central to everybody's apologetic who has any kind of Christianity to argue that 68 00:12:48,960 --> 00:12:52,159 Jesus fulfills all these Messianic prophecies and that the Church is the fulfillment of all 69 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:58,960 the prophecies of the gentiles converting in the Psalms, in Genesis and Isaiah and 70 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:05,639 Ezekiel and Amayah. And what about all those multitudes of passages which describe kings 71 00:13:05,639 --> 00:13:13,240 and queens coming and submitting to the Messiah. How do we know when to 72 00:13:13,600 --> 00:13:16,200 allegorize? How do we know when it's figurative? How do we know when 73 00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:20,519 it might be saying there really really will be kings and queens converting? What 74 00:13:20,639 --> 00:13:26,559 about Daniel seven nine, Revelation five there's a lot of parallels in those passages. 75 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:31,279 Well, it turns out the way that we interpret a lot of the 76 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,600 historical contexts of these passages, whether we're partial preterists or not, will also 77 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:41,039 play a role in how we understand the application of these passages and this doctrine 78 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:46,320 to the history of the Church. Because, as you can probably figure out, 79 00:13:46,519 --> 00:13:54,879 many evangelicals, many premillennialists, many dispensationalists, will take so many of 80 00:13:54,919 --> 00:13:58,360 the things that are actually applicable to here and now in the Church era, 81 00:14:00,399 --> 00:14:05,279 the kingdom era, and postponent delay it throw it off into the end times 82 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,799 in some judaizing heresy of a thousand year kingdom on Earth where there's a new 83 00:14:11,879 --> 00:14:13,879 temple. So we want to have to we're gonna we're gonna have to tie 84 00:14:13,879 --> 00:14:26,679 in some of that, and we're gonna talk about somebody's asking me about so 85 00:14:26,759 --> 00:14:33,559 I'm sorry, I can't tell if that's a trolling joke there and the guy 86 00:14:33,600 --> 00:14:39,879 that asked the question there super chat so hard. I'm sorry to tell you 87 00:14:39,960 --> 00:14:41,679 this the but I'm I'll have to deal with this. I can't find the 88 00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:50,440 tweet because I'm logged out of Twitter right now. On on the computer. 89 00:14:50,600 --> 00:14:52,600 But Michael says, for five dollars, did you hear about Putin opening the 90 00:14:52,639 --> 00:14:58,000 old vaults? So fourteen hundreds is not the oldest vaults. Okay, maybe 91 00:14:58,039 --> 00:15:05,240 in Russia. But the biblical figures in that cast cavalcade of images that a 92 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,879 lot of brothers on Twitter are sharing, Okay, first of all, they're 93 00:15:09,879 --> 00:15:15,240 not all black. Some of them are old and old icons turned black. 94 00:15:15,279 --> 00:15:18,840 It doesn't mean that people were black. Jesus was not black. He's a 95 00:15:18,879 --> 00:15:24,399 Hebrew. And the other pictures, about half of them are Saint Moses the 96 00:15:24,399 --> 00:15:26,600 Black. Totally different, dude, and everybody knows this, so I'm not 97 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:31,200 sure to be mean to you, Michael, but this is just total nonsense, 98 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:37,240 total low iq idiocy, and people just need to have no historical back 99 00:15:37,279 --> 00:15:41,399 of grounding or foundation at all. And there's literally like tens of thousands, 100 00:15:41,399 --> 00:15:46,720 maybe millions of people sharing this stupid tweet, and these stupid tiktoks that literally 101 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:52,279 think that Jesus is Moses the Black and that this is some sort of stupid 102 00:15:52,279 --> 00:15:54,360 cover up, just literal I mean, this is what now, you guys 103 00:15:54,440 --> 00:16:00,679 understand why it's so annoying when I go on TikTok to debate, and people 104 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:04,039 want more of it because just because they find it entertaining. But I mean, 105 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:10,519 it's really difficult to deal with super hard headed, totally arrogant, delusional 106 00:16:10,559 --> 00:16:14,759 people. And this is the kind of stuff that feeds into the Hebrew Israelite 107 00:16:14,759 --> 00:16:18,559 heresy. So you're absolutely right that the insanity of these Hebrew Israelite people. 108 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:23,559 They use this kind of nonsense as if Moses the Black is Jesus. And 109 00:16:23,600 --> 00:16:30,080 what's funny is that the examples that they're putting up up there's literally Greek lettering 110 00:16:30,679 --> 00:16:33,759 on the icon that tells you who it is. But they don't even know 111 00:16:33,799 --> 00:16:37,360 that the Greek lettering it says Moses the Black, it says Athenacious. Okay, 112 00:16:37,399 --> 00:16:48,440 it's not Jesus. So I hate to be a ball buster bearer of 113 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:56,879 bad news for all of the We was Kying's TikTok Bros. But shout out 114 00:16:56,919 --> 00:17:00,840 to Yakub. Michael says, for a dollar, I was just copy and 115 00:17:00,879 --> 00:17:03,599 pasting the tweet of my brain dead friend. Yeah, I thought you were 116 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,039 joking there. I figured that was a joke. But yeah, no, 117 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:14,920 Moses the Black is not Jesus, and Jesus was not actually from Ethiopia. 118 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:18,759 I don't even know what the We're going to have to do an investigation into 119 00:17:18,799 --> 00:17:22,720 the Hebrew visualized because just like it's just being promoted everywhere, it's probably got 120 00:17:22,759 --> 00:17:26,279 some kind of fed promotion and it's probably gonna lead to all kinds of madness 121 00:17:26,799 --> 00:17:30,119 and it's completely insane. I mean, it's just like the most ridiculous stuff 122 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:37,519 all right now. As you can imagine, every Orthodox person knows that Christ 123 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:44,319 is king because we have calltless icons showing him as the king. This of 124 00:17:44,319 --> 00:17:49,839 course is the prophet, Priest and King icon. And this is my favorite 125 00:17:51,039 --> 00:17:53,440 icon. We have it downstairs here at this house, the icon wall, 126 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:59,279 because it shows us that threefold office as a fulfillment of all the things that 127 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:03,960 the Old test says the Messiah would be so one of the common Three of 128 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,680 the common themes throughout the multitudes of Messianic prophecies in the Old Testament include the 129 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,720 idea that Jesus would be a prophet. He would be the greatest of the 130 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,240 prophets. The Messiah will be the greatest of the prophets. He will preach 131 00:18:15,279 --> 00:18:21,759 to the nations, preach righteousness, preach against idolatry, preach against all of 132 00:18:21,799 --> 00:18:26,559 the degeneracy of the pagan nations. He will also predict the future, which 133 00:18:26,599 --> 00:18:30,519 is part of the office of a prophet. Prophets don't just predict the future, 134 00:18:30,519 --> 00:18:36,480 they also are preachers. He would also be a priest in that he 135 00:18:36,519 --> 00:18:41,279 would fulfill the role of Milkisa Dek because, of course, the original type 136 00:18:41,279 --> 00:18:45,240 of Christ's priesthood is not the levitical priesthood or the ironic priesthood. It's the 137 00:18:45,279 --> 00:18:52,039 Melchizedekian priesthood. That does not mean that the levitical ironic priesthood is not also 138 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,720 a type of Christ, but as Paul argues in Hebrews seven, it's actually 139 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:04,519 pre eminent above the levitical because it comes before and Abraham, from whom the 140 00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:10,880 levitical priesthood derives its lineage. As Paul says, Aaron was in the loins 141 00:19:10,880 --> 00:19:15,960 of his father, Abraham paid tribute by that to very fact, by default 142 00:19:17,319 --> 00:19:25,200 to the greater when Abraham tithed to Melchizedek early on in Genesis. And so 143 00:19:25,279 --> 00:19:32,319 Malkisa Dek is an actual historical figure. He's not an unknown semi divine person. 144 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:36,240 As a lot of idiotic people come out with these weird theories has nothing 145 00:19:36,279 --> 00:19:40,680 to do with the Mormon idea of the Melchizedekian priesthood. No, christ priesthood 146 00:19:40,720 --> 00:19:45,720 is according to Psalm one ten, he is forever eternally a priest after the 147 00:19:45,799 --> 00:19:52,400 order of Malkisa deck and that refers to his second person of the Godhead status 148 00:19:52,519 --> 00:19:57,400 as well as the intention to become man and to be this high priestly high 149 00:19:57,440 --> 00:20:03,279 priest role. And so it is Christ that is the Melchizidekian priest and the 150 00:20:03,319 --> 00:20:07,559 ironic levitical priesthood also is a type of and is fulfilled in Christ, as 151 00:20:07,559 --> 00:20:11,599 Hebrews seven itself argues. So you see, Hebrews actually argues that both are 152 00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:18,000 have their reference point in their telos in Christ. Both are fulfilled in Christ, 153 00:20:19,519 --> 00:20:23,200 but the Milkizidekian is superior. And so in that sense we could say 154 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:30,039 that how could there be gentile priests as the prophecies of the Old Testament predict 155 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,680 the end of Isaiah, how is that even possible? How could there be 156 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:38,200 an altar in Egypt? As we read where do we read that recently in 157 00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,559 one of the livestreams that we did as Isaiah nineteen, How's there an alter 158 00:20:41,599 --> 00:20:47,200 in Egypt? Can only be a priest in Jerusalem and at the Temple. 159 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:49,799 How could there be gentile priests are going to be alter in It's not possible. 160 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:56,759 Well, it's possible because of the Messianic prophecies about the Covenant being opened 161 00:20:56,799 --> 00:21:02,640 up to the Gentiles and the superseding of the Ira priesthood by the Melchizedekian priesthood, 162 00:21:02,680 --> 00:21:04,920 which is the type of Christ. So christ priesthood, which is the 163 00:21:06,039 --> 00:21:10,799 Orthodox Church, is the priesthood spread throughout all the nations, the one true, 164 00:21:10,799 --> 00:21:15,480 Holy, Catholic and Apisolic Church. Everybody can go and see and learn 165 00:21:15,519 --> 00:21:18,240 and verify that. That is the Church of the first thousand years. So 166 00:21:18,319 --> 00:21:22,920 that's the church that's spread throughout the Roman Empire, converted the nations. The 167 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:26,680 Orthodox Church today is the only church that continues to believe the same identical dogmatic 168 00:21:26,720 --> 00:21:30,279 teachings of the Church of the first thousand years. Therefore, the Orthodox Church 169 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:37,440 is the identically same Church of the first millennium. And thus the fulfillment of 170 00:21:37,519 --> 00:21:41,480 all of those Messianic prophecies and the prophecies about the gentile nations converting and coming 171 00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:44,599 into the Church. And I would add to that as I will argue throughout 172 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:51,759 this discussion tonight, only the Orthodox Church still retains the classic teaching of symphonia, 173 00:21:52,559 --> 00:21:57,640 or that Christ is also king in the civil sphere. And this is 174 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:02,640 the whole history of Byzantium history of the idea of the monarch as the icon 175 00:22:02,839 --> 00:22:07,440 of God in the sense of ruling on earth through divine justice. We see 176 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,680 this in Romans thirteen, where even a pagan emperor, according to Paul and 177 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,000 Romas thirteen, even Nero, who was completely wicked, can still in a 178 00:22:15,079 --> 00:22:21,200 sense be an image of divine providence and divine justice. Paul accords to the 179 00:22:21,279 --> 00:22:26,279 Roman Empire, to the Roman imperium, to Caesar the ability to exercise the 180 00:22:26,319 --> 00:22:30,400 sword, and that's nothing new. In fact, the same principle had been 181 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:40,279 seen in the Book of Daniel when providentially Nevchaneezer is recognized as the existing authority. 182 00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:45,279 So even though he's pagan, he can still have a recognized providential authority. 183 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:49,039 Now he has limits. He's not able to tell you to worship the 184 00:22:49,079 --> 00:22:55,160 statues of him, nor can Caesar tell you to stop worshiping Christ and worship 185 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:59,160 him, and yet he still has the state authority. That's the attitude of 186 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:03,440 Romans thirteen. Remember it's not in either or of total statism, nor is 187 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,960 an attitude of no state at all. You see how Roman's thirteen has a 188 00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:11,079 balanced view that also has to be read in light of the rest of scripture. 189 00:23:11,599 --> 00:23:17,720 We see again an example of Daniel, a providential role for Nebuchaneezer, 190 00:23:18,559 --> 00:23:22,920 where God does allow him to rule and his empire is even spoken of in 191 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,400 the early chapters of Daniel in that way that God's providence brought it about. 192 00:23:26,759 --> 00:23:34,480 We see the similar situation with Darius, well Cyrus, and Darius actually Cyrus 193 00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,400 has called the Great Shepherd. He becomes a type of Christ in the latter 194 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:42,200 chapters of Isaiah, and he allows the temple to be rebuilt as well. 195 00:23:44,000 --> 00:23:49,799 I think that's right. Yeah, the decree goes forth, I think from 196 00:23:49,839 --> 00:23:59,640 Cyrus. Ezras says so. So the point here is that prophet, priest, 197 00:23:59,799 --> 00:24:07,039 and king are a triplicity, a trifled office that Christ fulfills, and 198 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,880 they all go together. So there's no Christ is King without the other two. 199 00:24:11,839 --> 00:24:17,839 So I don't at all disagree with the correct phraseology of Christ is King. 200 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,640 No, I just have two concerns. One concern is that a lot 201 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:27,240 of the twitter spamming of it really has nothing to do with Christ in the 202 00:24:27,279 --> 00:24:30,079 sense in the Orthodox view. In other words, it needs to be the 203 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:34,839 Orthodox view first, and that means that Christ first hass to reign in here, 204 00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:41,480 and we're all failing at that. And what happens a lot of times 205 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:47,720 is a lot of people want to replace the inner repentance side of this with 206 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:52,200 well, I'll just do a bunch of external tweeting, projecting, a bunch 207 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:57,559 of external owning, owning the libs with it. I'm gonna tweet it out 208 00:24:57,599 --> 00:25:02,000 to make everybody mad, and it has no reference to your actual life. 209 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:04,680 And so they turn it into a performative act and that's not what it is. 210 00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:07,759 It's not a performative act. It's not a performance. It's not a 211 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:14,920 thing to own the libs. And so a lot of the piety signalers there 212 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,759 are correct in this point. Who we're saying this quite all? So everything 213 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:21,799 on Twitter is so ridiculous. Can you either get these either ores right? 214 00:25:21,839 --> 00:25:23,960 So you get a bunch of people saying Christ is king, we should be 215 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:29,759 able to say it, and we're gonna own everybody with it. That's annoying 216 00:25:30,079 --> 00:25:33,160 because okay, but are you applying this in reality, do you actually believe 217 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,599 in the threefold office of Christ or do you actually think that this is just 218 00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,319 a base political thing. And that's the super annoying part of this which is 219 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,759 wrong. Okay, you can't isolate one of these threefold offices to the exclusion 220 00:25:45,759 --> 00:25:49,400 of the other two and make this some sort of performative act where Christ is 221 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:56,240 king to own the Libs. Because if you don't have the right theology go 222 00:25:56,319 --> 00:26:00,319 with this, I mean, it's all going to fail anyways, gonna be 223 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,519 ridiculous. So we need the right theology. And the other thing too, 224 00:26:03,599 --> 00:26:10,880 is that the political application of it is really the lowest tier of importance. 225 00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:17,079 So it has to start with you. Then it moves to your local relationships, 226 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,000 and then it moves out from that to the family, to you know, 227 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:25,880 state, nation, et cetera. That's the model of permeation, the 228 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:29,400 model of permeation. That's the way it's supposed to happen. Even if there 229 00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:33,599 have been situations in history where king converted and then his whole nation state converted, 230 00:26:33,839 --> 00:26:36,359 that's not the norm, especially not nowadays. That's not how it's going 231 00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:38,519 to happen now. So the way it's gonna happen nowadays because we don't really 232 00:26:38,559 --> 00:26:42,160 live in a Christian society. We don't live certainly don't live in Orthodox society. 233 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,039 We live in pretty much a pagan society. And how was Rome converted? 234 00:26:47,319 --> 00:26:51,799 Was it converted because they for three that the church for three centuries kept 235 00:26:51,799 --> 00:26:55,640 trying to get the emperor or convert and then enforce it top down. No, 236 00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,640 No, it took many, many centuries of martyrs. That's what converted 237 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:04,039 the Roman Empire. So it began with the zealand devotion in an individual sense 238 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:08,720 to the Orthodox faith, by the way, not to some crazy Protestant thing 239 00:27:08,839 --> 00:27:12,640 or some online e faith which doesn't exist. It's not a real thing. 240 00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:18,000 And then it spills out to people around you. And so if you can't, 241 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:25,400 as our friend Father Moses often makes the point like, if you don't 242 00:27:25,400 --> 00:27:27,920 get along with your family, if you don't love your family and your friends, 243 00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:33,839 and you don't, you know, live a moral Christian life, you 244 00:27:33,920 --> 00:27:41,000 have no business fussing and everybody on the internet and projecting and sassin everybody about 245 00:27:41,079 --> 00:27:44,319 Christ as king, because it's just you're just being a hypocrite, right, 246 00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,680 And it's also not a thing for these annoying media pundas to chime in on. 247 00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,039 I'm not talking about anything in particular. I'm not talking about Flints or 248 00:27:56,039 --> 00:28:02,039 anybody like that. I'm talking about some of them, the more neo con 249 00:28:02,039 --> 00:28:06,039 element which has to chime in on this, which are super annoying. I'm 250 00:28:06,039 --> 00:28:10,440 talking about them, and they use it as this way to piety signal, 251 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:15,440 right, and they'll be like, oh, you say Christ is king, 252 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:22,160 but are you praying on Twitter? Is what they mean. Right, So 253 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:26,079 there is a political application. There is a public application of these things. 254 00:28:26,119 --> 00:28:32,599 However, it's not the No, it's not like we go public political number 255 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:41,599 one and priority number two family and then number three is church and individual. 256 00:28:41,640 --> 00:28:44,319 It's the other way around. Starts with the individual. And that doesn't mean 257 00:28:44,319 --> 00:28:47,559 that you can't be a politician or applying these things in the realm of the 258 00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:51,279 political. It means that if you're doing that, then you have to, 259 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:56,000 more than anyone else, have the hierarchy of importance there first. Does that 260 00:28:56,039 --> 00:29:02,160 make sense? That's the key thing here, because remember Roman Empire doesn't convert 261 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,880 by a bunch of people, you know, spamming on scrolls, you know, 262 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:15,279 Christus Rex and if you put up enough Christmas scrolls and graffiti throughout the 263 00:29:15,319 --> 00:29:18,480 Roman Empire. Then oh, then Caesar will convert and then he'll make everybody 264 00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:22,839 be Christian. I mean some of these people have this completely idiotic views about 265 00:29:25,359 --> 00:29:33,039 No, what you want is genuine conversions at the local individual level first, 266 00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:40,079 and then that will permeate the rest of society. Then when there's a majority 267 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:45,200 Orthodox society, which we're way off from that, then when that happens, 268 00:29:45,559 --> 00:29:49,920 then it's a lot more. It's more appropriate to speak of the possibility of 269 00:29:49,960 --> 00:29:56,000 a Christian state. You can't have a Christian state without a sizable majority of 270 00:29:56,039 --> 00:30:02,079 the population wanting that. So that means they also can't be adherence to some 271 00:30:02,279 --> 00:30:07,799 ridiculous heterodox idea of Christ as King. And I'm not talking about Roman Catholics. 272 00:30:07,799 --> 00:30:11,799 I'm talking about Protestants. So if the majority of America is Protestant and 273 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:15,799 we get say, I don't know, let's say some weird thing happened, 274 00:30:15,839 --> 00:30:19,079 we're fifty percent of the Protestant this would never happen, but the Protestants agree 275 00:30:19,359 --> 00:30:25,799 Christ is King. How are you actually going to organize a coherent model of 276 00:30:26,279 --> 00:30:33,160 church state inter relationship symphonia with a bunch of lunatic Protestants, but never, 277 00:30:33,359 --> 00:30:37,039 it's never gonna work. And as we go through the history of the relationship 278 00:30:37,039 --> 00:30:42,160 between church and state in Protestant, Orthodox and Roman Catholic confessions, we'll actually 279 00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:48,640 see some of that. So thank you guys for tuning in, h like 280 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,519 and share if you would. We got a nice seven hundred here tonight. 281 00:30:53,279 --> 00:30:56,599 What is your parer life? Like? Hey, why do you feel the 282 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:02,279 need to ask me about my prayer life in a on an internet chat? 283 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,559 So look, if you don't, if you don't like, nobody's making you 284 00:31:07,559 --> 00:31:10,599 stay here, you don't have to be here. You can get out of 285 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:15,720 here. And the point of this is not like I almost never talk about 286 00:31:15,759 --> 00:31:21,319 piety issues, especially not on the internet. And as you get older, 287 00:31:21,359 --> 00:31:26,559 you're gonna get annoyed with this too. You're gonna get annoyed with all the 288 00:31:26,599 --> 00:31:36,440 piety stuff and all the self righteousness on Twitter and the Internet. But that 289 00:31:36,519 --> 00:31:41,119 doesn't mean that there's not don't run from what child are you been talking about? 290 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:48,839 Come debate. We're not here to debate the Qur'an. Dude, I've 291 00:31:48,839 --> 00:31:52,440 done. I've literally debated all of the all of the Muslims. So I'm 292 00:31:52,440 --> 00:32:00,440 not gonna come debate you with However, many hundred subscribers go, So you're 293 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:08,079 just wasting our time, all right, So what's the theological teaching? What 294 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,640 is the theological teacher? Do we actually talk about that? Now Here? 295 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:17,039 People are questioning how come you won't talk about JQ. So I've explained this 296 00:32:17,079 --> 00:32:22,839 a million times. Certain topics. Everybody knows you can't discuss those things on 297 00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:31,519 YouTube, and I talk about hotter racier topics over on my rock fin So 298 00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:36,000 if you'd follow my Tragy and Hope lectures, if you follow my recent lectures 299 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:40,400 that I do live, and if you followed the recent lecture that I did 300 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:49,359 on Israel and Palestine, you'll know that I got into some diceier topics. 301 00:32:49,960 --> 00:32:52,279 And so the question always comes up, how come you're not fully on board 302 00:32:52,279 --> 00:32:59,880 supporting every person out there pushing because you have it you guys have it backwards. 303 00:32:59,880 --> 00:33:01,000 And this is what I've been trying to say for a long time. 304 00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:12,000 So it's not gonna work to do this model of pressing the issue on without 305 00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:15,279 the right theology. And I know you do think you think it doesn't matter. 306 00:33:15,359 --> 00:33:19,799 You think you know all that matters is if you can own libs and 307 00:33:19,839 --> 00:33:22,759 get the Amish question, right right, that's the only thing that matters. 308 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:30,920 But the AMI's question isn't gonna save you, The honest question isn't gonna heal 309 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:45,799 you. So well, so what's the priority? And do you even want 310 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:49,960 to hear what the actual teachings are? I mean, let me give you 311 00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,400 an example. So let's say we're gonna let's say we're gonna push the Amish 312 00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:59,359 question, and that's what we're gonna obsess over. We're gonna talk about it 313 00:33:59,359 --> 00:34:07,720 all day long, and we're gonna convert people to trad Catholicism or to Francis's 314 00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:15,199 Catholicism. Do you understand that Francis literally goes and worships in Amish synagogues? 315 00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:22,320 And I hope you're you know what I'm saying. You're not too stupid, 316 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:28,000 right, So Francis is the solution. You see how this is silly. 317 00:34:28,199 --> 00:34:38,559 It makes absolutely no sense. So if you want to call in and remember 318 00:34:38,599 --> 00:34:46,800 to keep it according to TOS, so nobody gains anything by just you know, 319 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:53,480 going against TOS and getting banned. It doesn't do anything. And I've 320 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,880 been at this for a long time. I know, I guarantee you, 321 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,719 I know a lot more about all this stuff than you do. Man. 322 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,320 So you know, if you want to call in and have a debate or 323 00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:05,039 something like that, we can do it. And you guys always say why 324 00:35:05,039 --> 00:35:07,119 don't you do this? And I do it, but you guys never go 325 00:35:07,159 --> 00:35:12,199 and pay attention to the stuff that I do. So so what's the point? 326 00:35:12,199 --> 00:35:15,199 Why why are you even here? What's the point is this? Guy? 327 00:35:15,320 --> 00:35:21,719 Jay Dyer? I am so all right? But see, you guys 328 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:23,559 don't actually care about the history of theology. You just want to shout on 329 00:35:23,599 --> 00:35:30,519 Twitter. It's like nobody even cares about what the real issue is or what 330 00:35:30,559 --> 00:35:34,519 the actual teachings are, So just go shout somewhere else. Man, what 331 00:35:34,519 --> 00:35:38,360 what do you want from me? I mean, if you don't want the 332 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:42,199 actual history of the actual theology, I don't know what I mean because that's 333 00:35:42,199 --> 00:35:45,039 what we always cover. So what do you think? So you think it's 334 00:35:45,079 --> 00:35:50,320 gonna you're going to solve all this with a bunch of online shouting and well 335 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:52,039 you're going to make a common cause with a bunch of Protestants to do this. 336 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:58,559 Really you think that's going to work? Thank you guys though, for 337 00:35:58,599 --> 00:36:02,039 the super chat. I appreciate that. Yeah, I mean, look, 338 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:07,519 I focus on what my wheelhouse is, and my wheelhouse is the topics that 339 00:36:07,559 --> 00:36:15,159 I cover. So the one of the reasons I don't focus on the political 340 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:22,199 is that as you get older, and as you you know, when you're 341 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,800 in your twenties, you're very politically minded, you think you're gonna do a 342 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:34,000 lot with politics, and then as you get older, you realize how I 343 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,360 don't mean to be black pilled here, so don't misunderstand what I'm saying. 344 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,000 I think politics is very limited what you can really do in politics, and 345 00:36:39,039 --> 00:36:43,800 you can do a lot at the local level, but you know, national 346 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,559 politics and everybody getting so wrapped up and it's just it's really doesn't do anything. 347 00:36:49,840 --> 00:36:52,679 And after you get into your thirties and forties and you live through a 348 00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:57,119 lot of these elections and you've seen all this nonsense, you're gonna feel the 349 00:36:57,119 --> 00:37:02,199 same way. So you'll learn that what I'm saying is true as you get 350 00:37:02,199 --> 00:37:06,639 older. So does that mean that you can't be a politician and apply your 351 00:37:06,639 --> 00:37:09,599 classic principles. Now there's people who do this, and I support I think 352 00:37:09,599 --> 00:37:14,719 it's great that people do that. I just don't think that on a national 353 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:23,239 level it's really, I mean presidential politics kind of a circus. So anyway, 354 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:25,880 a lot of people live in these sort of fantasy worlds. They want 355 00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:30,280 to larp and pretend that and it's the same. By the way, I 356 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:32,039 don't have a problem critiquing Orthodox people too. They do the same thing where 357 00:37:32,039 --> 00:37:38,159 they we're going to set up an Orthodox business union part of America. We're 358 00:37:38,199 --> 00:37:42,880 not anywhere near that. Okay, we need like seventy eighty percent of population 359 00:37:43,079 --> 00:37:47,719 converted Orthodoxy before that would even be like on the table. Okay, But 360 00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:57,519 there's nothing wrong with talking about the church's teaching on the role of church and 361 00:37:57,559 --> 00:38:00,440 state. And that's what we're talking about tonight. What is the theological teaching 362 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:07,599 of Orthodox Catholic and Protestant. So let's look at that, because again, 363 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:12,280 you know, as you guys know, Orthodox theology is taught by the icons. 364 00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:19,480 You can always look to canonical iconography to get the basics of our theology. 365 00:38:20,199 --> 00:38:22,679 But let's go with the Protestants first. Let's step over here to the 366 00:38:22,719 --> 00:38:25,559 Protestant world. Even though you might think, well, why wouldn't you start 367 00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:31,159 with orthox Roman Catholic, Well, in America, I think it's still the 368 00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:36,639 case that where's my Protestant pictures, I'll pull them up here we go. 369 00:38:37,519 --> 00:38:47,280 I think it's still the case that the majority of religious adherents in America, 370 00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:53,519 I think are Protestant. I think that's right. So we'll start with that, 371 00:38:53,639 --> 00:38:58,000 just because in America that's the predominant view, right. I mean, 372 00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:01,880 America starts as and inment nation with a lot of Protestant influence. It's true 373 00:39:01,920 --> 00:39:07,239 there are a few Catholics there. There's the Carol family that's there, so 374 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,239 there is a bit of a Catholic history of America. But there was also 375 00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:16,400 a lot of Episcopalians, Baptists, Deists, Masons. Right, there's an 376 00:39:16,440 --> 00:39:23,400 odd cavalcade of characters who kind of go into the spirit of America, the 377 00:39:23,400 --> 00:39:30,559 Founding Fathers and so forth. And so there's a strong Puritan and Protestant ethos 378 00:39:30,559 --> 00:39:38,679 there, especially with the Puritan work ethic, the whole idea of you know, 379 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:45,559 predestination manifesting itself in worldly blessings. Right, So if you're part of 380 00:39:45,559 --> 00:39:49,880 the elect, if you're a city on a hill, as many the Puritans 381 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,159 said, even prior to you know, seventeen seventy six or whatever, prior 382 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,039 to that, you've got the idea already in some of the Puritans that the 383 00:39:57,159 --> 00:40:02,960 New Israel has kind of equated to the American experiment of people like Cotton Mathers 384 00:40:04,360 --> 00:40:08,039 and these characters, right, And so you get this idea of setting up 385 00:40:08,079 --> 00:40:13,719 a type of theocracy through the Puritans, and the Puritans are getting that out 386 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:19,199 of a loose kind of dominion theology that Calvin had. And so I know 387 00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,760 all about this. I used to be a pretty committed Calvinist dominionist, and 388 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:29,000 dominion theology just refers to a lot of people get obsessed over this. They 389 00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:31,280 think it's something ridiculous, and at times it is ridiculous, but it just 390 00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:37,559 means that the dominion mandate of Genesis still applies to be fruitful and multiply, 391 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:40,679 and it certainly it does. But of course, in the Orthodox view, 392 00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:45,519 that's fulfilled in the Church. The Church is who truly has the dominion mandate. 393 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:52,480 And while it's also the case that the state should operate under Christian principles, 394 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:58,559 that's not the first priority of the Christian to convert the state. We 395 00:40:58,679 --> 00:41:05,719 convert us families, cultures, tribes, and then the state follows kind of 396 00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,880 the last you could say in that in that exercise, So the Protestants. 397 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,000 Though, what's interesting is that if we go back to the early reformers, 398 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:20,400 we want to talk about Luther, Calvin AND's wingli here. Uh not many 399 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,719 people know that when the present Reformation kicks off, this was not solely motivated 400 00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:34,320 by a desire to fight the papacy. Certainly, uh there were uh, 401 00:41:34,639 --> 00:41:40,000 you know, theological obsessions that Luther had over certain doctrines like solo fida. 402 00:41:40,199 --> 00:41:44,440 And you know, he begins by questioning in the nine five PCs things like 403 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,559 purgatory and indulgences and temporal remission of sins and all this kind of stuff. 404 00:41:47,559 --> 00:41:52,039 And if the pope has the power to, you know, dispense plenary indulgences, 405 00:41:52,079 --> 00:41:55,599 why why does any free everybody from purgator? So Luther asked a lot 406 00:41:55,639 --> 00:42:02,679 of these, uh legitimate theological questions, and it progresses into more fundamental theological 407 00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:07,280 questions. Luther becomes more and more hardcore Augustinian, as you guys know, 408 00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,800 becomes more predestinarian. He writes his book Bondage of the Will, where he 409 00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:19,719 essentially denies free will. But what not many people know is that Luther had 410 00:42:20,000 --> 00:42:27,559 tremendous support from the German princes and so the state, the German state, 411 00:42:28,079 --> 00:42:32,559 and these princes were really tired of the pope and they were a big part 412 00:42:32,599 --> 00:42:37,599 of the motivation and support behind Luther. And we can see kind of similar 413 00:42:37,639 --> 00:42:40,480 things with other Protestant reformers as well. Everybody kind of knows that, you 414 00:42:40,519 --> 00:42:44,280 know, the creation of the Church of England is Henry the Eighth. He 415 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:49,239 Hear the Eighth is kind of annoyed at the papal situation with divorce and not 416 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,480 granting him, you know, what he wants with his ladies. He wants 417 00:42:52,599 --> 00:42:59,760 a male heir and he's having these issues and so Pope angers him and he 418 00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:04,280 I'm going to create the church being and that becomes in part a looting exercise, 419 00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,679 where the Church of England essentially is this new entity that then loots a 420 00:43:07,760 --> 00:43:12,719 lot of the Roman Catholic areas, monasteries, and it undergoes a kind of 421 00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:19,800 revolution that at times is sometimes called low Church Anglicanism, and there's also High 422 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:23,039 Church Anglicanism, so you can get something kind of a variation there where low 423 00:43:23,159 --> 00:43:29,800 Church Anglican is almost perhaps even Congregationalists kind of puritan type of government, maybe 424 00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:36,039 even something akin to we cann't say full on. Many of them are Calvinists, 425 00:43:36,079 --> 00:43:42,159 but we can't say they're full on Presbyterian because Anglican kind of necessitates episcopal 426 00:43:42,239 --> 00:43:47,199 church governance in the recognition of the king. Many Presbyterians who are strict followers 427 00:43:47,239 --> 00:43:57,119 of Luther, of course, end up being Presbyterian and preferring republican government as 428 00:43:57,119 --> 00:44:00,280 opposed to monarchy. And as you guys probably know, in England there's actual 429 00:44:00,400 --> 00:44:08,079 battles between the Royalists and was the cavaliers versus the royalists or whatever. So 430 00:44:08,119 --> 00:44:16,199 you get these religious wars over the relationship of church and state and the structure 431 00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:22,239 of not just the church but also the state. For example, in the 432 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,119 times of the Westminster Confession, which is the sort of normative doctrine of Reformed 433 00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:36,119 Presbyterian theology, that's their primo confession, there were many people there very worried 434 00:44:36,199 --> 00:44:42,480 that there might be a concession to Erastianism, and Erascianism, if you don't 435 00:44:42,519 --> 00:44:47,960 know, is just Cicero papism, the idea that the king, the ruler, 436 00:44:49,079 --> 00:44:53,440 whoever it might be, president of the republic, even perhaps that he's 437 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:59,079 now the head of the church. And so the Westminster Confession contains within it 438 00:44:59,159 --> 00:45:01,760 I think if I'm going for I haven't looked at Westminster Confession in probably fifteen 439 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:07,679 years, but you know, they have these guards against the king or the 440 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:14,599 ruler having any authority in the church, but they still have the idea that 441 00:45:16,239 --> 00:45:24,440 the state has a duty to God and it's not autonomous. In the Protestant 442 00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:29,519 theories, both I would say, Luther and Calvin, you could argue that 443 00:45:29,559 --> 00:45:37,840 there's still even this early on a kind of loose I wouldn't say theocracy. 444 00:45:37,159 --> 00:45:42,679 In other words, I would say Calvin is more of a proponent of theocracy, 445 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:46,239 maybe even than Luther. Luther's not super concerned with the state, but 446 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:52,360 he does think the state has a duty to kind of promote the basic ideas 447 00:45:52,360 --> 00:45:54,480 of Christian morals, the Ten Commandments and this kind of stuff. And so 448 00:45:54,639 --> 00:46:00,480 ironically, even though Luther was supported by the German princes against the Pope, 449 00:46:00,280 --> 00:46:05,559 Calvin actually spends up being more of a theocrat than Luther does. And this 450 00:46:05,639 --> 00:46:10,599 is where we get Puritanism. And there's a lot of inter nicene disputes that 451 00:46:10,639 --> 00:46:14,159 a lot of people don't know about or even care. Nobody even cares about 452 00:46:14,159 --> 00:46:17,880 this, but within the Reformed and Calvinist world, there's actually debates over to 453 00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:27,400 what degree Calvin was a theonomist. Theonymist just means a person believes that the 454 00:46:27,440 --> 00:46:32,000 Old Testament civil law teachings are in varying degree is still kind of applicable to 455 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:37,000 today's society, so basically just theocracy to some degree. Now, Calvin doesn't 456 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:43,880 think that the Church and the state kind of like he thinks they have spheres, 457 00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:50,039 and most people, i think in Church history recognize some role of spheres 458 00:46:50,079 --> 00:46:52,920 here until we get to the radical reformers, So until we get to the 459 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:58,519 Anabaptists. Whether you're Protestant, Orthodox, or Catholic, most people think, 460 00:46:58,599 --> 00:47:02,079 okay, there's kind of sort of loose canonical if you're Orthodox, are Catholic 461 00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:10,480 barriers between what the king or ruler canon can't do and what the bishops and 462 00:47:10,519 --> 00:47:15,800 the priests cannon can't do. So there's kind of loosely defined ideas. It 463 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:21,760 is true that in the late Middle Ages and into the Middle Ages, there's 464 00:47:21,559 --> 00:47:25,039 it's fuzzy at times because you have at times monks who become warrior monks. 465 00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:30,800 That's unheard of and forbidden in the Orthodox world, but it exists by the 466 00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:35,360 eleven twelfth century in the Latin West. There's a great chapter on that in 467 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,960 this book. I highly recommend the mind Or of Papadoccus book on this period 468 00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:45,320 of eleven hundred to fourteen fifty three to the collapse of Byzantium. There's whole 469 00:47:45,360 --> 00:47:50,599 chapter on the new element of the rise of the warrior monk, and that 470 00:47:50,679 --> 00:47:53,360 was actually one of the elements of the new Gregorian papacy. So they were 471 00:47:53,360 --> 00:48:00,559 big supporters of this because it now allowed for another type of we can say 472 00:48:00,679 --> 00:48:05,719 army, so to speak, on the behalf of the pope. So there 473 00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:13,519 have been times where there's crossing the boundaries of the bishops becoming princes that fight, 474 00:48:14,679 --> 00:48:19,360 and that, to be clear here is actually a violation of canon law. 475 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,079 We'll look at that in a minute. We don't want to go there 476 00:48:21,159 --> 00:48:22,079 right now, but because we're going to stand on the Protestant stuff. But 477 00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,920 all the way up until even Calvin and Luther, you have this loose idea 478 00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:31,599 that there's limitations spheres of authority, and even though there's violations and sort of 479 00:48:31,599 --> 00:48:37,280 overstepping the boundaries, most of church history has some kind of recognition of this, 480 00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,880 at least church history in the sense of when we start to get canon 481 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:45,239 law because the first three centuries, even though there's canons that we have sat 482 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:49,719 the local synods, we don't yet have what we call a codified canon law 483 00:48:50,199 --> 00:48:52,599 because the Church is still persecuted in underground, so they're not going to be 484 00:48:53,119 --> 00:48:58,639 formulating, you know, really laid out theories of church and state. Now, 485 00:48:58,679 --> 00:49:01,480 technically speaking, Paul, Apostles and the Old Testament already kind of have 486 00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:07,360 taught about the role of ecclesia and state because even in the Old Testament there's 487 00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:14,599 clear defined roles between the king and the priest. If you didn't know, 488 00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,440 this is already in Mosaic law. Moses in the Law writes out the book 489 00:49:19,559 --> 00:49:24,880 of law for kings and what their duties and boundaries are. Okay, so 490 00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,920 those principles again they're already in the Old Testament. They come out of Mosaic 491 00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:34,360 law. For those that don't know, the apostles, I believe are in 492 00:49:34,360 --> 00:49:38,039 incontinuity with those basic ideas. And hence why Paul says that you know, 493 00:49:38,199 --> 00:49:42,199 Caesar, he calls Caesar for those who don't know. In Romans thirteen, 494 00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,079 a diaconos a deacon, so Caesar is seen as a servant of God to 495 00:49:46,280 --> 00:49:52,599 dispense divine justice. Now he might be a terrible example of that role, 496 00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,360 right, as many of the Roman emperors were. They became tyrants, they 497 00:49:57,400 --> 00:50:04,880 became purscars of the church. But even Paul Rum's thirteen can call Nero a 498 00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:08,119 kind of Diacinos, even though he's a wicked degenerate. And I believe that 499 00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:14,519 Nero is the Antichrist of the Book of Revelation because in Gematria and yes, 500 00:50:14,599 --> 00:50:19,199 John in the Book of Revelation uses Gematria as a code to speak for who 501 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:23,559 he's talking about, because he couldn't outright say I am talking about Nero as 502 00:50:23,599 --> 00:50:30,440 Antichrist. Nero's name in Hebrew comes out to neuron cusar, which is sixt' 503 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:32,599 six' six, So it's a key indicator. And I believe John was writing 504 00:50:32,639 --> 00:50:38,800 in the Day's Nero that Nero is the immediate historical beast doesn't mean that Nero 505 00:50:39,199 --> 00:50:44,280 is the final Antichrist. There will be some final Antichrist figure at some point. 506 00:50:44,519 --> 00:50:47,960 But Nero is a type of Antichrist, as were people like told of 507 00:50:49,039 --> 00:50:52,280 Me, as were people like Neimrod. That's how biblical typology works. It 508 00:50:52,360 --> 00:50:59,320 kind of repeats in patterns, so back to Protestants and Protestants and Protestanism. 509 00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:04,519 Then early on what we call classical Protestant. Classical Protestism is the period of 510 00:51:04,559 --> 00:51:07,280 Martin Luther, John Calvin's Wingley, and a couple of the other figures like 511 00:51:07,320 --> 00:51:15,880 Malanchthon and uh, you know, people contemporaries of that first generation of Reformation, 512 00:51:15,760 --> 00:51:20,320 and then maybe some of the people even a generation after are also kind 513 00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:23,960 of classical Protestants, you could say, like Malanchthon or maybe even Turitan for 514 00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:30,239 instance, Turretan to being a classical Calvinist theologian. So sometimes that becomes scholastic 515 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:38,440 Protestantism, so that the scholastic Protestants, the Puritans, the Calvinists, uh, 516 00:51:38,719 --> 00:51:45,119 they develop a much more kind of fleshed out idea of what the role 517 00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:50,760 of church and state is. And it's typically pretty theocratic. Right. For 518 00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:55,559 example, Calvin has sermons on Deuteronomy where he pretty consistently says that this the 519 00:51:55,599 --> 00:52:00,599 principles in the in the the in Deuteronomy still apply. Okay, so you 520 00:52:00,639 --> 00:52:07,400 don't have to necessarily apply every single penal sanction, but the basic idea of 521 00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:10,639 the application of the penal sanctions to today still applies. That's why Puritans, 522 00:52:10,639 --> 00:52:15,519 for example, if you've all seen the Scarlett letter and then heard about the 523 00:52:15,519 --> 00:52:21,360 Salem witch trade, that's why the idea was that the civil penalties for public 524 00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:24,679 witchcraft and so forth still apply. And that was true in the Roalancatholic world 525 00:52:24,679 --> 00:52:29,960 as well, because in the Middle Ages you did have oftentimes civil penalties for 526 00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:32,559 things like witchcraft and so forth. Now people say, yeah, and we 527 00:52:32,559 --> 00:52:37,239 should punish adultery too, and all that. Now there have been civil penalties 528 00:52:37,239 --> 00:52:40,519 for adultery in canon law and so forth, and even in civil law in 529 00:52:40,519 --> 00:52:50,639 the Middle Ages as well as skittles. But the other interesting distinction here is 530 00:52:50,639 --> 00:52:57,880 that in Orthodox views of this, the punishment is determined by the sphere. 531 00:52:58,719 --> 00:53:01,599 So for example, if someone was excommunicated from the church, it's not the 532 00:53:01,679 --> 00:53:07,480 role of the church to punish people. Okay, The excommunication is itself kind 533 00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:14,280 of a punishment. So the church might say to you know, a ruler 534 00:53:14,519 --> 00:53:16,239 or a duke or somebody I don't know, maybe a duke becomes a heretic, 535 00:53:16,239 --> 00:53:22,400 and the Orthodox Church is, okay, you're excommunicated, and then or 536 00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:25,199 I don't know, some other heretic or something. It's then the state that 537 00:53:25,280 --> 00:53:30,440 can then determine the penalty of that in a civil sense. So that's again 538 00:53:30,559 --> 00:53:36,840 spheres of authority, and again between the Orthodox and the Roman Catholic throughout the 539 00:53:36,840 --> 00:53:42,159 Middle Ages. I tend to view this as not that different. I don't 540 00:53:42,199 --> 00:53:45,880 think the case it's the case that there is some difference between say the Roman 541 00:53:45,920 --> 00:53:51,960 Catholic people calls for crusades. We don't see anything like that really in the 542 00:53:52,039 --> 00:53:58,519 East. Per se, you do have battles with Muslims on the basis of 543 00:53:58,639 --> 00:54:01,599 you know, a Serbian kings fighting Islam. So I wouldn't go so far 544 00:54:01,599 --> 00:54:05,119 as to say that even all war is like wrong or bad or anything like 545 00:54:05,159 --> 00:54:08,360 that. I think that there is defensive, justified war and so forth. 546 00:54:13,599 --> 00:54:19,880 But there is an agreement, I would say, typically between East and West 547 00:54:19,960 --> 00:54:24,239 on the basic ideas of things like the duty of the state to operate under 548 00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:30,639 Christian principles because the majority of the populations are Christian. Okay, So it's 549 00:54:30,679 --> 00:54:35,320 not being enforced or pushed or promulgated because of some sort of top down thing. 550 00:54:35,360 --> 00:54:42,280 It's because the societies are Christian majority. So when we start to see 551 00:54:42,440 --> 00:54:47,519 Protestantism come about and react against what I believe is an earlier papal revolution. 552 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:52,639 Part of the reason protestantm occurs, in my view, is precisely because of 553 00:54:52,760 --> 00:54:55,760 the Gregorian Reforms. So if you're familiar with the Gregorian Reforms, you know 554 00:54:55,840 --> 00:55:01,599 that in the period of the eleven hundreds you get about one hundred years where 555 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:07,760 the Germanic tribes literally appoint the pope for about one hundred years. And so 556 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,639 this, by the way, undercuts the toll the ridiculous idea that Roman Catholics 557 00:55:10,639 --> 00:55:15,800 were never under any kind of ceso papism. No, it's just papalo crism, 558 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:22,079 where Otto and all these other kings were basically disappointing who they wanted as 559 00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:25,320 the pope to control the office of the papacy. We have a similar situation 560 00:55:25,639 --> 00:55:31,119 when the papacy moves to France in Avignon for seventy years, the See of 561 00:55:31,159 --> 00:55:36,039 Peter in France, right, and it has become such a mess that's known 562 00:55:36,039 --> 00:55:42,199 as the Great Western Schism, where you have three people claiming to be the 563 00:55:42,199 --> 00:55:45,639 pope through two anti popes who knows and it takes an ecumenical council, the 564 00:55:45,679 --> 00:55:50,639 Council of Constance to solve this, which is ironic because of course Roman Catholic 565 00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,559 theology says that councils are above the pope. So when there's three rival popes, 566 00:55:54,559 --> 00:55:59,079 what do they do? They turn to a council. But remember popes 567 00:55:59,119 --> 00:56:01,480 are so above councils. So it's all a bunch of casoustrie and it's absurd, 568 00:56:01,519 --> 00:56:15,079 but it's based around this idea that we see in Dictatus Pope of the 569 00:56:15,119 --> 00:56:20,880 Gregorian Reforms, and this is Pope Gregory the seventh. Again, there's great 570 00:56:20,960 --> 00:56:25,559 chapters on this, the mind or Papadocus book, and it makes essentially all 571 00:56:25,559 --> 00:56:30,960 these outlandish claims which don't just apply to church and state, and actually points 572 00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:36,480 out that the papacy, the pope is actually the quisa's hatterac He's the universe 573 00:56:36,519 --> 00:56:39,159 is super being. All the emperors and kings in the world submit to the 574 00:56:39,199 --> 00:56:43,920 Pope. They all must kiss his ring. He decides who rules in every 575 00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,400 country in the world. His is the only name in the world. He 576 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:52,880 may oppose all emperors, he determines all bishops in the world. And again, 577 00:56:53,880 --> 00:56:58,400 well, hopefully we all know how foreign this is to the canons of 578 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,320 the councils. Okay, we just cover this in the debate with or in 579 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:06,079 the debate review with Luigi, where we went through multiple canons, the ancient 580 00:57:06,119 --> 00:57:09,079 Ken's Apostolic Canons. For example, Canon thirty four to thirty five says that 581 00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:15,400 no bishop can go outside of his own sea, even the first bishop cannot 582 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,679 go outside of his own sea, and let him do all things in accord 583 00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:22,559 with all the rest. Okay, well, that's Soynodalism. That's not Vatican 584 00:57:22,639 --> 00:57:27,079 One where the pope does not need the consent of the other bishops. Okay, 585 00:57:27,119 --> 00:57:30,719 Canon thirty four, as we covered the other night, thirty four slash 586 00:57:30,760 --> 00:57:37,320 thirty five depending on the numberings. And you'll notice that again it's the Rouma 587 00:57:37,400 --> 00:57:39,400 Church has never aired. All these things go together. This is a valid, 588 00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:45,960 absolutely correct that it's papal teaching. Every scholar that you look up that 589 00:57:45,000 --> 00:57:49,679 discusses dictatas pape will talk about it. As I've never seen anybody say it's 590 00:57:49,719 --> 00:57:53,800 not valid. So Tishynsky talks about it, Papa, Doaca's mind or if 591 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:59,239 they all talk about it as valid as far as we can tell. But 592 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:02,840 this renation, this evolution here of the role of church and state. You 593 00:58:02,880 --> 00:58:07,519 see that this is an innovation because prior to this, the pope didn't even 594 00:58:07,599 --> 00:58:12,719 call the ecumenical councils. The emperor did. And if we look at the 595 00:58:12,719 --> 00:58:15,320 seven Ecamenical council, it speaks of the Emperor as the God ordained Emperor, 596 00:58:15,880 --> 00:58:22,360 the voice and pen of God. Right, all this flowery language that Luigi 597 00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:29,840 brought up in the live stream covering his debate with Voice of Reason. Yeah, 598 00:58:29,880 --> 00:58:32,599 exactly. The Pope is the queisasaderaik. He's the one who was this 599 00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:38,199 my indeed, right, as Christopher Walkin says, he's the god Emperor. 600 00:58:40,840 --> 00:58:45,039 But no one had ever seen anything like Dictatus Pope in the first thousand years. 601 00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:52,119 And that shows that the doctor of the papacy is an evolution. And 602 00:58:52,159 --> 00:58:55,320 if that's the case, then the entire premise of what for example, Voice 603 00:58:55,360 --> 00:59:00,800 of Reason and Ibara argue, oh, that was always there. If this 604 00:59:00,920 --> 00:59:05,280 is not always there, then it wasn't always there. You say, all, 605 00:59:05,360 --> 00:59:07,559 then it evolved. Okay, well it evolved, then it wasn't always 606 00:59:07,559 --> 00:59:14,119 there. So and I want to show you that just an example, The 607 00:59:14,119 --> 00:59:17,400 Canons of Chalcedon, for example, limit all clergy, and you'll notice in 608 00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:21,639 every one of the canons of the councils that speaks about clergy and bishops and 609 00:59:21,679 --> 00:59:24,960 their roles or limitations. There's never exemptions for the Bishop of Rome. So 610 00:59:25,039 --> 00:59:28,679 all the Roman Catholics who discussed this, they always say, well, it's 611 00:59:28,719 --> 00:59:31,599 an argument from science, because they already all understood it. Okay. But 612 00:59:34,400 --> 00:59:40,559 so they understood that the Roman sea had total supremacy and jurisdiction, but they 613 00:59:40,599 --> 00:59:45,639 also enacted canons that contradict that. So the pope had to throw out the 614 00:59:45,679 --> 00:59:49,199 canons that he didn't like in literally every council. But they also believed in 615 00:59:49,199 --> 00:59:52,960 people supremacy as they enact canons they contradicted. So you see how these arguments 616 00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:58,719 are spacious, absurd and contradictory from the Roman Catholics. And that's why Calcedon 617 00:59:59,000 --> 01:00:04,760 they love to appeal to calcul Well, it says that if your clergy you 618 01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:13,800 cannot be in the military or in any secular position, Well how can you 619 01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,360 not? There's no exemption for the pope. By the way, So if 620 01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:23,079 you can't be in the military or in any secular profession, state role, 621 01:00:25,119 --> 01:00:30,559 then how is it that you're the quisants haiderak and the emperor of all emperors? 622 01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:34,800 How is it that every emperor in the world submits to you and you 623 01:00:34,840 --> 01:00:37,599 can depose them. How is it that, uh, you know, Alexander, 624 01:00:37,639 --> 01:00:45,199 Pope, Alexander can have his own standing armies, standing armies? Do 625 01:00:45,239 --> 01:00:52,119 you think that Chalcedon at all had in mind the possibility that the pope could 626 01:00:52,119 --> 01:00:55,280 have standing armies? And by the way, they were so ridiculous in the 627 01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:00,320 time of Gregory that excuse me, Alexander, the Borgia Pope, that you 628 01:01:00,360 --> 01:01:05,960 would actually communicate the state the people that wouldn't fight for I mean, you 629 01:01:05,960 --> 01:01:07,960 talk about corruption so like it's not just a matter of a well, they 630 01:01:07,960 --> 01:01:14,559 were corrupt, okay, but it's not just a matter of corruption. It's 631 01:01:14,599 --> 01:01:21,920 a matter of what the absurd claims of dictatus Pope are. And it's not 632 01:01:22,039 --> 01:01:24,719 just dictatus Poppy either. Again, we've hammered this home a million times and 633 01:01:24,840 --> 01:01:34,920 it just goes in one anyone air out the other. And we have to 634 01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:39,840 talk about this because this is the reason why the Protestants had such a overreaction 635 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:46,000 against this stuff. They're both wrong in our view. In thirteen oh two, 636 01:01:46,239 --> 01:01:55,159 Pope Boniface publishes famous statement called unim sanctum. And not only does unum 637 01:01:55,199 --> 01:02:00,519 sanctam teach that you have to be in union with the Roman See to be 638 01:02:00,599 --> 01:02:04,920 saved, and not just in a generic It's not like all the world religions 639 01:02:04,920 --> 01:02:08,840 are somehow loosely in a union. No public communion with the Roman Sea is 640 01:02:08,880 --> 01:02:13,960 what this document's talking about. Because the Vatican two people will try to say, 641 01:02:14,119 --> 01:02:17,880 oh, well, everybody is in a kind of union with the Bishop 642 01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:21,840 of Rome, even the Muslims. Right, that's the Vatican too, like 643 01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:25,159 all the churches in every world religion is kind of loosely in union with Francis. 644 01:02:25,960 --> 01:02:30,079 That's the Vatican two model of everybody being on a graded scale, concentric 645 01:02:30,119 --> 01:02:36,800 circles away from Rome in the center, which is ridiculous because there's canons in 646 01:02:37,159 --> 01:02:42,079 for seven councils that forbid you from going to as if you're a cleric, 647 01:02:42,159 --> 01:02:51,920 to worship in the synagogue or the churches of heretics. In every post Vatican 648 01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:55,000 two pope has gone and prayed in the mosque, in the synagogue and with 649 01:02:55,039 --> 01:03:00,960 heretics, violating the ancient canons because they don't care what Kennon said. They 650 01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:04,559 don't care that it was a unanimous teaching of the early Church that you can't 651 01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:09,239 go and worship in a mosque towards Mecca. That's crazy and m you tell 652 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:16,119 us Romancologics, what's the problem. So you mean the guy that called the 653 01:03:16,199 --> 01:03:22,679 office of the Pope the pope calls a crusade against Islam. But now you 654 01:03:22,719 --> 01:03:28,039 can build a multi faith center and pray in mosques with Muslims towards Mecca. 655 01:03:28,519 --> 01:03:36,239 You don't see that as a contradiction Roman catholicsopp nopoop oop Yeah exactly. And 656 01:03:36,280 --> 01:03:38,880 that's why to answer the original guy's question, how are you going to make 657 01:03:38,920 --> 01:03:50,599 a common course with telling people that Christianity is what Francis offers when I'm signed 658 01:03:50,639 --> 01:03:54,039 them. Doesn't just talk about the necessity to be in community with the Romans 659 01:03:54,039 --> 01:04:00,079 he to be saved. It also talks about it is necessary for the state 660 01:04:01,519 --> 01:04:08,079 to submit to the Pope. So people cite this document and they think, 661 01:04:08,079 --> 01:04:11,840 oh, this is one of those you know, Cantatae Domino Council Florence documents 662 01:04:11,840 --> 01:04:13,880 that says that you have to be in king of the Roman to be saved 663 01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:17,159 the haha, no salvation outside the church extraclaton to nolslos Okay, yeah, 664 01:04:17,199 --> 01:04:23,320 but it also says that you have to be in union with the Roman see 665 01:04:23,719 --> 01:04:29,280 to be a legitimate ruler, and the pope will decide who the ruler is, 666 01:04:29,280 --> 01:04:31,360 and that you have to believe in the temporal supremacy of the pope to 667 01:04:31,400 --> 01:04:42,159 be saved as well. You see, now the question is does that still 668 01:04:42,159 --> 01:04:44,840 apply well, as we're going to see in a minute, No, the 669 01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:51,880 Roman calogy Church does not anymore teach the temporal supremacy dictatis pape unamsanctam view of 670 01:04:51,920 --> 01:05:01,079 the Roman Catholic papacy. Because are you familiar with the tiara? Did you 671 01:05:01,119 --> 01:05:10,880 know what the triple tiara is? Triple tiara is the threefold supremacy that the 672 01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:17,920 pope has, and one of those three crowns is the authority over all state 673 01:05:18,000 --> 01:05:23,760 rulers. The post Vatican two popes. I think it was Paul the six 674 01:05:24,679 --> 01:05:30,639 took this thing off. So it's very symbolic that Paul the six, the 675 01:05:30,679 --> 01:05:31,840 real pope a Vatican too. John the twenty third calls it, and then 676 01:05:31,840 --> 01:05:36,159 Paul the six finishes it. It's very significant that he took this thing off, 677 01:05:36,559 --> 01:05:41,960 and to my knowledge, they've not worn it since. Right, so 678 01:05:41,960 --> 01:05:45,239 you could see John the twenty third looks like was the last one that had 679 01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:47,719 on. Maybe Paul the sixth War. Its some, but he's the one 680 01:05:47,719 --> 01:05:51,440 that dispensed with it. Yeah, so here's John the twenty third wearing the 681 01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:59,400 triple crown, and that's been dispensed with. I don't know if they auctioned 682 01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:00,880 it off or so old, or if he's just sitting in the Vatican or 683 01:06:01,360 --> 01:06:06,440 where it is. But this is photoshopped. That's not him actually wearing it. 684 01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:11,719 You can tell it's photoshopped on there. But this has to do with 685 01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:18,679 the Vatican two teaching post dignitatis humani and post nosrotte that they no longer mandate 686 01:06:19,159 --> 01:06:26,440 and stress the Christian state. In fact, Benedict and others people think Benedict 687 01:06:26,440 --> 01:06:30,840 was a super trapped Benedict was actually calling for the decatholicization of many European states. 688 01:06:32,079 --> 01:06:34,800 Now there's a million lines of cope. Well, he was doing that 689 01:06:34,840 --> 01:06:38,800 because they're not Christian anymore. It looks bad to call it Catholic. No, 690 01:06:38,639 --> 01:06:41,880 no, no, that's not why they're doing this. They're doing this 691 01:06:42,000 --> 01:06:47,280 because the Vatican two teaching is religious liberty, indifferentism and so forth. And 692 01:06:47,320 --> 01:06:53,880 we'll see that in a minute. Because the very thing that payble encyclicals dogmatic 693 01:06:53,920 --> 01:07:00,880 teaching. Murari voss Lamentabilei, Syllabus of errors. Right, these all condemn 694 01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:08,360 religious liberty, freedom of thought, freedom of press, and so forth as 695 01:07:08,519 --> 01:07:14,599 heresies. Vatican two, Dignatasimani says, now, this is the true spirit 696 01:07:14,639 --> 01:07:18,599 of Christ is to have religious liberty. Now here's the problem, though. 697 01:07:18,679 --> 01:07:24,039 Religious liberty, now that's a bit of a vague term, because does that 698 01:07:24,159 --> 01:07:29,880 mean that you can do whatever you want. Well, it's always been vague. 699 01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,480 And religious liberty and freedom of press, freedom of conscience, freedom of 700 01:07:32,519 --> 01:07:36,159 worship, those were all Protestant doctrines, their protestant Ism one oh one. 701 01:07:39,320 --> 01:07:45,119 The Protestant rulers and reformers made sure to stress, but they weren't consistent with 702 01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:47,480 it. But they made sure to stress that we are not submitting to the 703 01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:49,960 pope because we have freedom of worship, freedom of conscience, and we don't 704 01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:53,079 have to believe it just because the Pope says it. We have to be 705 01:07:53,119 --> 01:07:58,679 convinced of it. Now. They weren't consistent though, because Calvin had Servetus 706 01:07:58,719 --> 01:08:01,960 put to death, and Michael Servitus could appeal to the same principles that Calvin 707 01:08:02,000 --> 01:08:05,719 was appealing to against the pope. Right, Michael Cervita said well, I'm 708 01:08:05,719 --> 01:08:11,199 not convinced of the Trinity. John Calvin says Michael Cervinas ought to be put 709 01:08:11,199 --> 01:08:15,679 to death because he's denying the dogma the Trinity. Well, the Pope says 710 01:08:15,679 --> 01:08:19,000 that the Calvinists that be put to death because they're denying multiple Roman Catholic dogmas. 711 01:08:19,640 --> 01:08:23,399 So you see how freedom of worship, freedom of conscience, freedom of 712 01:08:23,439 --> 01:08:27,600 press, etcetera. In principle. Okay, they sound good, and there 713 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,520 might be a sense in which we have those, but they're ambiguous, just 714 01:08:30,600 --> 01:08:35,199 as phrases. What does that mean. Does freedom of worship mean that I'm 715 01:08:35,239 --> 01:08:42,840 free to erect Satanic temples and worship Satan and offer human sacrifice? Some people 716 01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:49,239 think so literally, right, And if you read some of the documents about 717 01:08:49,239 --> 01:08:57,359 it can too. It's hard to see how that doesn't also apply. Because 718 01:08:58,119 --> 01:09:04,159 one of the documents that came, if it's a didn't tas Humani or the 719 01:09:04,199 --> 01:09:09,439 one there into Gracio one or one of them talks about how there should be 720 01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:15,439 no restrictions on other groups, sects and cults in society. And some people 721 01:09:15,479 --> 01:09:18,920 make the argument that well, this was during the Cold War and they were 722 01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:25,359 saying all this so that they could help convince the Soviets to let the church 723 01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:28,840 be free. And that's not why they were doing that. They weren't teaching 724 01:09:28,920 --> 01:09:34,399 religious liberty because of Soviets. Okay, give me a break. If that 725 01:09:34,520 --> 01:09:36,960 was the case, then they should walk it back. Now that there's no 726 01:09:38,159 --> 01:09:44,119 Soviet empire anymore. Did they do that? No, No, the Pope's 727 01:09:44,239 --> 01:09:49,960 still call for the de christianization of the state. They still call for religious 728 01:09:49,960 --> 01:09:58,800 liberty, freedom of worship, and so forth. Now you said, well, 729 01:09:58,800 --> 01:10:01,359 what's the problem, Well, as we see here, So here's dignatatist 730 01:10:01,399 --> 01:10:06,199 humani. This is the Vatican two document which is about supposedly, on the 731 01:10:06,239 --> 01:10:10,560 basis of the dignity of the individual or the human being, he should never 732 01:10:10,600 --> 01:10:15,239 be compelled, never be in any way that the church or religious teacher should 733 01:10:15,239 --> 01:10:18,960 never have any quote, violence connected to it. Now this is ambiguous as 734 01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,319 well, because of course the church shouldn't go out and like chop people's heads 735 01:10:23,359 --> 01:10:28,399 off. But the problem is that this is the very argumentation of the Protestants 736 01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:35,399 as to why there should be no dogmatic connection to the state. Now, 737 01:10:35,399 --> 01:10:43,199 they weren't consistent with that, But as the Protestant Reformation progresses, who are 738 01:10:43,199 --> 01:10:46,840 the other reformers that many of us know about but often forget about after Luther, 739 01:10:46,960 --> 01:10:54,560 Calvin's Wingley, Malanchthon, etc. The Anabaptists. The Anabaptists, even 740 01:10:54,560 --> 01:11:00,960 though we don't think of them as the Reformation, they're actually a gigantic portion 741 01:11:00,000 --> 01:11:05,399 of the Reformation, which arguably you could say has had now more. The 742 01:11:05,399 --> 01:11:13,560 theology of Anabaptism, i would argue, is actually now more popular, maybe 743 01:11:13,560 --> 01:11:21,079 inadvertently nowadays, than the actual theology of Luther and Calvin. How's that? 744 01:11:21,960 --> 01:11:28,880 Well, Anabaptist taught that. As we said, this is what's called the 745 01:11:29,000 --> 01:11:32,479 Radical Reformation, right, And it's very important to know about the Radical Reformation 746 01:11:32,600 --> 01:11:36,640 because the Reformation, again, it's not just Lutheran, Calvin and the famous 747 01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:42,720 guys. When you start to look at the Radical Reformation, you start realizing, 748 01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:48,640 hey, wait a minute, these dudes they actually sound like Baptists, 749 01:11:48,680 --> 01:11:58,720 Evangelicals, Charismatics, and most of American Christianity. Now, it's true that 750 01:11:58,880 --> 01:12:03,560 we don't have a direct lineal descent necessarily to the Radical Reformers, right, 751 01:12:05,279 --> 01:12:11,520 there are some groups that exist today that still do have historical lineage to the 752 01:12:11,600 --> 01:12:16,079 Radical Reformers, the hutter Rights, the Amish, the Mennonites. They come 753 01:12:16,119 --> 01:12:23,039 from the Radical Reformers. And it's true that the Amish and Mennonites and hutter 754 01:12:23,119 --> 01:12:26,920 Rights are not the big group out there, right, they're small groups. 755 01:12:28,000 --> 01:12:31,439 Quakers Shakers, right, I think there's like three people left of the Shakers. 756 01:12:31,479 --> 01:12:35,960 Literally, there's only three Shakers left from the historic Shaker community, which 757 01:12:36,000 --> 01:12:43,319 is like some lunatic split of Quakers. But even President you know, Richard 758 01:12:43,359 --> 01:12:45,439 Nixon from you know, we grew up as a Quaker, the Quaker oats 759 01:12:45,479 --> 01:12:56,640 guy. I think Cadbury Cadbury Chocolates in England is also a Quaker company. 760 01:12:57,319 --> 01:12:59,239 So how is it then? How can I, Jay, how could you 761 01:12:59,279 --> 01:13:03,920 say that the Radical Reformation is really dominant today because the theology of the Radical 762 01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:10,119 Reformation. Let's look at some of the commonalities that Now, this is a 763 01:13:10,159 --> 01:13:13,159 bunch of wacky groups, right, so keep that in mind. But what 764 01:13:13,159 --> 01:13:18,039 are some of the commonalities amongst the wacky groups of the Radical Reformation. We'll 765 01:13:18,039 --> 01:13:24,640 take a look. So the Radical Reformers were like, hey, wait a 766 01:13:24,680 --> 01:13:30,880 minute, of course we don't like Rome, right, we don't like the 767 01:13:30,880 --> 01:13:33,800 papacy. That's a big Antichrist institution. I can't get Oxford to pull up. 768 01:13:33,800 --> 01:13:42,560 So we're just gonna use Wikipedia just for the overall view here. We 769 01:13:42,600 --> 01:13:45,079 don't like the pope, but you know what, Martin Luther's got a lot 770 01:13:45,079 --> 01:13:50,880 of papal baggage, doesn't he know? He's got images and he thinks there's 771 01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:57,520 sacraments, there's baptismal regeneration, and there's luther like some traditions, and he 772 01:13:57,640 --> 01:14:03,800 just didn't go far enough because Luther thought that there was like dogmas and tradition. 773 01:14:03,960 --> 01:14:10,960 Still, Luther didn't understand that the real Christianity is the inner light and 774 01:14:11,079 --> 01:14:19,800 move of the Holy Spirit. That's charismaticism. Luther didn't understand that what we 775 01:14:19,880 --> 01:14:33,439 need is a communal type of living. That's Thomas Munzer and communism. And 776 01:14:33,520 --> 01:14:39,840 Luther didn't understand that we don't need tradition, we need the Bible alone and 777 01:14:39,920 --> 01:14:43,359 a personal relationship with Jesus. That really doesn't have much to do with the 778 01:14:43,399 --> 01:14:48,199 church at all. The church is goin optional that's Baptists and Southern Baptists, 779 01:14:49,239 --> 01:14:56,800 and out of Southern Baptists Campbellites, Church of Christ, non the nominational churches 780 01:14:56,840 --> 01:15:06,199 megachurches. The dominant type of Christianity in America. Is this quasi gnostic and 781 01:15:06,359 --> 01:15:13,800 a baptist Ish radical Reformation theology. Let's look at some more commonalities. Many 782 01:15:13,880 --> 01:15:19,039 of the early forms of the Rackal Reformation were millennarian so Akilleism, pre millennialism, 783 01:15:21,840 --> 01:15:25,600 even though there was a few early church fathers who might have, as 784 01:15:25,600 --> 01:15:29,359 debated, might have had a pre millennial or a millennialist type of view. 785 01:15:29,920 --> 01:15:35,920 Doesn't matter the cost. Anthon umble One in three eighty one excludes all forms 786 01:15:35,920 --> 01:15:41,000 of millennialism. When the Creed says whose kingdom shall have no end? That 787 01:15:41,079 --> 01:15:46,560 is intended to exclude the millennialists, the millennarians, the Achilleis. But most 788 01:15:46,560 --> 01:15:53,079 of the Protestants and Evangelicals in America, their dispensationalists, their pre millennialists, 789 01:15:53,119 --> 01:15:59,359 et cetera. So radical Reformation theology makes it comeback. What else did they 790 01:15:59,359 --> 01:16:06,600 believe? Many of these groups believed in biblical literalism, others believed in quote 791 01:16:06,640 --> 01:16:12,000 spiritualism, and some of those groups even said that you don't need the scriptures 792 01:16:12,039 --> 01:16:15,600 at all, You need the direct move of the Holy Spirit, which might 793 01:16:15,640 --> 01:16:19,880 be manifestations of shaking, It might be manifestations of gibberish, it might be 794 01:16:19,920 --> 01:16:24,119 manifestations of you think God's talking to you and telling you what to do. 795 01:16:28,079 --> 01:16:38,640 Wait a minute, that sounds like the majority of Evangelicalism exactly, the non 796 01:16:38,720 --> 01:16:44,239 Anabaptist radical reformers. These are also very important because they relate very closely to 797 01:16:44,680 --> 01:16:49,399 the topic today. Though most of the radical Reformers were Anabaptists, some of 798 01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:54,880 them were not. Munzer, for example, was involved in the German Peasants 799 01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:59,279 War, so even though he was a proto Communist, the Thomas Munzer Rebellion 800 01:17:00,039 --> 01:17:04,680 resulted in the idea that you could fight in battles and stuff. Uh andres 801 01:17:04,760 --> 01:17:15,239 Karlstaw disagreed theologically with Zwingley and Luther teaching non violence and refusing infant baptism. 802 01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:18,920 So this is where we get Luther, by the way, who says Zwingley 803 01:17:18,960 --> 01:17:25,000 should be put to death and that the the Baptists and ana Baptists who wouldn't 804 01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:28,359 baptized children should be put to death. So keep that in mind. These 805 01:17:28,399 --> 01:17:34,319 were considered death worthy disagreements at that time. And remember that because Protestants are 806 01:17:34,319 --> 01:17:41,079 always saying there's a loose, lowest common denominator idea of what a Protestant is. 807 01:17:41,439 --> 01:17:45,680 We all believe in the Bible, we all believe in baptism, used 808 01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:50,640 to kill each other over baptism of infants. What are you talking about and 809 01:17:50,720 --> 01:17:57,000 you don't there's no common It's all a bunch of lunatics. And by the 810 01:17:57,119 --> 01:18:00,680 by the way, just because there's some commonalities doesn't mean there's one group. 811 01:18:01,800 --> 01:18:05,039 Remember how the remember the move that Bryson did the Bryson debate where you tried 812 01:18:05,039 --> 01:18:11,039 to play this trick. Any group, loosely speaking, that had a judaizing 813 01:18:11,079 --> 01:18:15,119 tendency was the group that Bryson's in communion with. That's not a single group, 814 01:18:15,159 --> 01:18:19,159 dude, That's a bunch of different, disconnected sex all over the place. 815 01:18:19,920 --> 01:18:26,840 I'm with them, I'm with Dan, that's my group. Come on, 816 01:18:26,920 --> 01:18:32,000 dude. Now here's the key point with the dissenters, the English Reformation, 817 01:18:32,079 --> 01:18:38,319 rodic Co Reformation, the English dissenters, these people, Quakers and others, 818 01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:51,000 George Fox, Roger Williams. What's their key point. Well, we 819 01:18:51,039 --> 01:18:57,439 can understand why they might think this. They're getting persecuted by the Presbyterian theocracy 820 01:18:57,479 --> 01:19:01,880 of Calvin. They get persecuted by Martin Luther and his German princes get drowned 821 01:19:01,880 --> 01:19:05,560 because they won't baptize their infants, they get person by perscued by the Roman 822 01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:13,039 Catholics, because Roman Catholics just say they're idiotic heretics. And it's not necessarily 823 01:19:13,039 --> 01:19:18,000 the churches they are doing. It's the German state, the theocracy of Calvin, 824 01:19:18,319 --> 01:19:25,760 the state, and the Catholic kings. So guess what their theology is. 825 01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:30,399 The Antichrist is the state. God has nothing to do with the state, 826 01:19:30,479 --> 01:19:33,920 because how could God be the state or have a role in the state 827 01:19:33,960 --> 01:19:38,359 when the state keeps persecuting us And we're the true keepers of the true flame, 828 01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:43,319 We're the true Christians, the true pious people. But notice what's happening 829 01:19:43,359 --> 01:19:48,319 with the Christianity of these idiotic radical reformers is it's having nothing to do with 830 01:19:48,439 --> 01:19:58,000 history. Remember Paul Washer literally saying, Chay, I'm coming to believe the 831 01:19:58,159 --> 01:20:04,960 Radical Reformation the Anabaptist were correct all alone. It was a blackout Jay, 832 01:20:05,479 --> 01:20:12,079 the church was blacked out. Give me money for hard privasions, right, 833 01:20:12,560 --> 01:20:19,880 literally saying that he believes Anabaptist blackout theory. The piety signalers, of all 834 01:20:19,920 --> 01:20:28,039 piety signalers, the Anabaptists persecuted by the state. And what do we get. 835 01:20:28,039 --> 01:20:32,159 We get Roger Williams saying that the state is anti God, the state 836 01:20:32,279 --> 01:20:47,479 is Antichrist. Interestingly, the Anabaptist theology of the state as against God and 837 01:20:47,720 --> 01:20:57,720 kind of Antichrist. This is synonymous with kind of a lot of Americanist ideas, 838 01:20:58,000 --> 01:21:04,439 isn't it. So for example, I have mentioned this many many times, 839 01:21:04,520 --> 01:21:08,399 you guys. I won't say who, but some years ago in twenty 840 01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:13,520 seventeen eighteen, I met an Oca priest and we had a long exchange, 841 01:21:13,560 --> 01:21:17,720 a pretty heated argument, and he had the same ideas as Roger Williams that 842 01:21:17,800 --> 01:21:20,560 God has nothing to do with the state. It's basically an Antichrist institution. 843 01:21:20,800 --> 01:21:27,600 Like so you say, Roger Williams is Orthodox. This is crazy, And 844 01:21:27,680 --> 01:21:31,159 how contrary to the entire history of the Orthodox Church? Is this just completely 845 01:21:31,279 --> 01:21:34,039 night and day? It was like the Seventh Documentical Council, the entire Businessine 846 01:21:34,039 --> 01:21:39,520 Empire. And my point is not to say that all of the Byzantine emperors 847 01:21:39,520 --> 01:21:42,760 were saints, and no, no, I'm not saying that. Obviously it 848 01:21:42,840 --> 01:21:48,159 fell like there was corruption, right, But the point is that how could 849 01:21:48,239 --> 01:21:53,880 you think that Munzer not Muonster. I'm sorry, because Mouncher fought in the 850 01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:58,279 Peasant War. But how could you think that George Fox and Roger Williams and 851 01:21:58,479 --> 01:22:04,279 that that is what orthodox Christianity teaches. So what happens is a lot of 852 01:22:04,319 --> 01:22:12,520 times in America, especially priests, people are trained up and their american Ism 853 01:22:13,199 --> 01:22:16,800 comes first. So they're doing the same mistake, making the same move, 854 01:22:16,920 --> 01:22:21,319 the same mistake in my view, that people who would say Christ is King 855 01:22:21,399 --> 01:22:30,079 make by thinking that the political comes first and turning Christ into like a bays 856 01:22:30,119 --> 01:22:33,600 tried political thing. That's not what it is. That's an effect of authentic 857 01:22:33,680 --> 01:22:40,760 Christianity, but it's not first and foremost. That's down the road. You 858 01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:46,279 see what I'm saying. If you think of it as first and foremost a 859 01:22:46,319 --> 01:22:51,319 political thing, as soon as you begin to fail in the political domain, 860 01:22:51,399 --> 01:22:56,119 now Jesus is well, he doesn't have anything to do with this. You 861 01:22:56,159 --> 01:23:00,800 see, you would be led to the logic of Roger Williams. And neither 862 01:23:00,800 --> 01:23:05,239 of these positions is correct. Neither Roger Williams nor the idea that Jesus is 863 01:23:05,319 --> 01:23:12,800 like my political banner that I'm going to enact the base and trad political party 864 01:23:12,880 --> 01:23:17,880 stuff with. This is the very move that the Pope made erroneously a thousand 865 01:23:17,920 --> 01:23:25,479 years ago to turn the papacy into a geopolitical state organization. That's the mistake. 866 01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:30,640 And saying that the mistake of the papacy to become a geopolitical power organization 867 01:23:31,720 --> 01:23:36,760 is not solved by saying that Orthodox need to be Americanists and reject the Christian 868 01:23:36,800 --> 01:23:41,199 state. That's the opposite error, the very error that the priests I'm talking 869 01:23:41,239 --> 01:23:58,960 about made. So hopefully that's clear. Hopefully go to see that, right. 870 01:23:59,039 --> 01:24:00,560 I think we got to abou almost nine hundred. So we got people 871 01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,119 kind of popping in and out, I guess, and we're going to open 872 01:24:03,119 --> 01:24:09,920 it up for people to discuss. Now there's even when I support the show, 873 01:24:09,960 --> 01:24:12,319 you can do somebody super chats there. Now, there's a lot of 874 01:24:13,000 --> 01:24:16,720 specifics that there's not easy, you know, direct answers to in terms of 875 01:24:16,720 --> 01:24:19,720 these questions, Like somebody will always say, well, what is the limits 876 01:24:19,720 --> 01:24:24,439 of the state. There's never gonna be some like one size fits all answer 877 01:24:24,479 --> 01:24:29,079 to this. History is diverse. You're going to have places and times in 878 01:24:29,159 --> 01:24:32,880 history when the state has less power, the state has more power. My 879 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:38,560 personal view, I would like to see the state have less power. That 880 01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:41,479 does not make me a libertarian. Now we got to talk about libertarianism, 881 01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:48,199 because this is the next mistake that people make in this domain, where their 882 01:24:48,239 --> 01:24:55,079 assumption is that the Enlightenment was like the high point of all of civilization. 883 01:24:56,239 --> 01:24:58,760 And in my view, again, I see the Enlightenment kind of like the 884 01:24:58,840 --> 01:25:04,239 Reformation, where you've got a reaction against papal problems, as the Reformation was, 885 01:25:04,920 --> 01:25:10,239 but the reaction is also a problem, right, And everybody's always falling 886 01:25:10,239 --> 01:25:11,920 into either words. Right, Well, if the papers is bad, then 887 01:25:11,960 --> 01:25:14,439 I guess the Reformers were good. Papers is bad. The Masons must be 888 01:25:14,479 --> 01:25:15,880 good. Or you can have two people that are bad. You can have 889 01:25:15,920 --> 01:25:19,840 two wrong sides. Okay, people can't figure this out, like most people 890 01:25:19,920 --> 01:25:25,880 just default to thinking that somebody's right, somebody wrong, the guy bad guy, 891 01:25:26,199 --> 01:25:30,439 black life. You can have five people arguing something and they're all wrong 892 01:25:32,960 --> 01:25:39,399 obviously, right, isn't that possible? Sure? If you ever heard five 893 01:25:39,479 --> 01:25:43,119 pundits on a Twitter space all being idiots, all being wrong, of course, 894 01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:47,600 right. So just because there's extremes in the papacy in the Middle Ages 895 01:25:48,880 --> 01:26:00,479 doesn't make the Reformation response automatically correct. Obviously, Perhaps both sides have right, 896 01:26:00,600 --> 01:26:04,600 Perhaps both sides have things wrong, but maybe not. In some cases 897 01:26:04,600 --> 01:26:09,840 there might be a party that has everything correct. Loosely speaking, right, 898 01:26:15,199 --> 01:26:21,760 It's just not an easy either or, is what I'm trying to say now 899 01:26:26,039 --> 01:26:30,960 in regard again to moving back to the papacy position. Because remember, as 900 01:26:30,000 --> 01:26:34,800 the Reformation progresses, as the Radical Reformation happens, you get these mixes. 901 01:26:34,920 --> 01:26:40,600 You get, you know, Europe kind of being split Protestant, you get 902 01:26:40,600 --> 01:26:45,279 the years of the wars in Europe over religion, thirty years of War, 903 01:26:45,319 --> 01:26:48,680 etc. You get, and I read entire books on those many years ago. 904 01:26:48,680 --> 01:26:51,159 I've forgotten a lot of it in my history classes, but I read 905 01:26:51,159 --> 01:26:56,359 a whole book on thirty years War, which all fascinating and ties into all 906 01:26:56,359 --> 01:27:03,680 this. You've got people who reject the Anabaptist stuff and the Protestant stuff and 907 01:27:03,760 --> 01:27:06,560 the Catholic stuff, and they start getting into Hermeticism. So you can start 908 01:27:06,600 --> 01:27:11,199 to get the rise of Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism. So I remember, there's this 909 01:27:11,319 --> 01:27:15,600 cauldron. You've got the atheist Enlightenment people. You've got a cauldron of interests 910 01:27:15,880 --> 01:27:21,600 here. It's all mixing and bubbling over and battling. And so what the 911 01:27:21,680 --> 01:27:27,640 Roman Church does in response, which is understandable, and I think as Orthodox 912 01:27:27,680 --> 01:27:30,000 we actually agree with a lot of the basics here. So if you read 913 01:27:30,039 --> 01:27:33,560 this book that I'm always recommending the popes against the modern errors. A lot 914 01:27:33,560 --> 01:27:41,880 of the basic principles that they call out, critiquing the Protestant and Enlightenment presuppositions 915 01:27:43,359 --> 01:27:48,079 is all covered in this document. Sixteen papal documents from about seventeen hundred up 916 01:27:48,119 --> 01:27:53,560 to I think there's some Pious the eleventh in there, so it ends with 917 01:27:53,600 --> 01:27:56,680 some of the Pie's eleventh. So I think I read it twice, but 918 01:27:56,720 --> 01:28:00,279 I read it twice, like fifteen years ago. It used to be book 919 01:28:00,279 --> 01:28:02,439 I would give out when I was a tradcat And the reason I give this 920 01:28:02,439 --> 01:28:09,279 out is that it's so clear and to the point contrasted with Vatican two. 921 01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:15,880 Okay, So if you want one book that really contrasts the essential contradictions between 922 01:28:15,119 --> 01:28:19,079 the documents of Vatican two and the pre papal teaching, it's this book right 923 01:28:19,119 --> 01:28:26,239 here from Ten Books, classic famous traditional Catholic publisher. Every Catholic knows who 924 01:28:26,239 --> 01:28:32,880 ten Books is. So the sixteen documents here don't just call out the idea 925 01:28:33,000 --> 01:28:44,239 of modernism, liberalism, Freemasonry, I think is included in their humani generis 926 01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:46,680 or humano genus excuse me, of thee other thirteenth I think that's in there. 927 01:28:47,079 --> 01:28:50,199 But by the way, there's actually like ten and then're like ten incyclicals 928 01:28:50,239 --> 01:28:55,680 going back to the seventeen hundreds, Pope Clement calling out and rejecting Freemasonry. 929 01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,760 The first, I think is from Pope Clement, and there's a whole series 930 01:28:58,800 --> 01:29:02,079 of these all the way up to again famous en cyclicals like Murari Voss of 931 01:29:02,079 --> 01:29:09,600 Gregory the sixteenth in eighteen thirty two, and liberalism and religious and differentism here. 932 01:29:09,680 --> 01:29:14,159 This is one of the earliest call outs of the what we might call 933 01:29:14,199 --> 01:29:17,640 the proto a humanist idea. So, even though Acumenism is not an organized 934 01:29:17,680 --> 01:29:23,000 movement yet, in the eighteen thirties you kind of have the predecessors to it 935 01:29:23,079 --> 01:29:30,760 with things like Freemasonry, things like Protestantism. Branch theory already exists, and 936 01:29:30,800 --> 01:29:34,520 in the eighteen thirties the papacy was very adamant to oppose these things and call 937 01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:40,239 them out. Now, this is in the minds of the popes in these 938 01:29:40,359 --> 01:29:47,359 documents, fully expressing the universal Catholic tradition. So even though there's not a 939 01:29:47,399 --> 01:29:51,039 statement at the beginning of these documents that says this shows an extrica, theaters 940 01:29:51,079 --> 01:29:56,319 to eatement were proclaimed as for the whole church from the Tipeter. It doesn't 941 01:29:56,319 --> 01:30:03,479 really have to because it's papal teaching, pressing what is the universal teaching to 942 01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:10,640 condemn errors, and the errors condemned are all the things that you would expect 943 01:30:11,000 --> 01:30:17,199 religious liberty, freedom of worship, total freedom of conscience, modernism and so 944 01:30:17,279 --> 01:30:26,680 forth. And what's called indifferentism here, which is the idea connected the liberty 945 01:30:26,680 --> 01:30:30,920 of conscience that you can be saved in all kinds of different paths and churches 946 01:30:30,960 --> 01:30:36,720 and groups. Now he's not even talking about salvation and false religions. He's 947 01:30:36,760 --> 01:30:43,600 talking about salvation and various branches of the church and amongst schismatic groups, so 948 01:30:43,680 --> 01:30:48,680 branch theory. He talks about liberty of conscience, He talks about freedom of 949 01:30:48,720 --> 01:30:57,039 the press. So you understand that the papacy in eighteen thirty two, going 950 01:30:57,079 --> 01:31:02,199 back to citing Climent the thirteen about the of heterodox books, the Holy Office, 951 01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:11,960 banning Masonic texts and so forth, attacking the idea that the public must 952 01:31:12,000 --> 01:31:20,000 submit to submit to kings and princes. So it's a monarchical text. God 953 01:31:20,000 --> 01:31:28,119 has established the monarchical rule. Now, this is just one of sixteen papal 954 01:31:28,199 --> 01:31:31,680 documents that specifically condemn all the errors that we're talking about. Now as we 955 01:31:31,760 --> 01:31:34,880 get down, what is the key error that he wants to highlight towards the 956 01:31:34,960 --> 01:31:43,159 end of the document the separation of church and state identified by the pope here 957 01:31:43,199 --> 01:31:50,319 as a heresy. What is Digna taught us humani about the separation of church 958 01:31:50,359 --> 01:31:59,039 and state? The de catholicizing of Christian states. This is Vatican two document 959 01:31:59,119 --> 01:32:01,319 for those who don't know, Tween sixty five Paul the six and of course 960 01:32:01,319 --> 01:32:05,479 it has been reiterated by all the posts Vatican two popes that no longer needs 961 01:32:05,479 --> 01:32:12,439 to be Christian and Catholic states because it's not good for pluralism. This is 962 01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:16,800 why John Courtney Murray was so important at Vatican two in terms of his Jesuit 963 01:32:16,880 --> 01:32:20,039 theology, was that he was a big promoter as well as I think Maritane 964 01:32:20,119 --> 01:32:28,359 Jacques Manartaine of religious pluralism and that modern states and societies needed to adopt religious 965 01:32:28,359 --> 01:32:33,720 pluralism. Does does it at all sound like Maurari Voss of eighteen thirty two 966 01:32:33,760 --> 01:32:38,840 and Pope Benedict Or excusing Pope Gregory the sixteenth. Does this as all sound 967 01:32:38,960 --> 01:32:45,880 like pluralism to you, to condemn the separation of church and state as a 968 01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:58,079 heresy? Yeah, if you've never read these, if you're a Roman Catholic, 969 01:32:58,840 --> 01:33:08,800 it's time to start reading some these, bro. So that's Mauri Voss 970 01:33:08,840 --> 01:33:12,199 as one example. Now keep in mind this is not a one off. 971 01:33:12,880 --> 01:33:18,680 Okay, Popes against the Modern Errors has sixteen papal documents just like this, 972 01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:24,960 including some of the documents that are attached to Vatican One, like the Syllabus 973 01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:27,640 of Errors, if I recall, so, let's look at the Syllabus of 974 01:33:27,760 --> 01:33:36,000 Errors. Quantic Cura. Quantic Curra is the encyclical of Pope Pious the ninth 975 01:33:36,039 --> 01:33:42,760 of the Pope a Vatican one, and the Trads will argue that this is 976 01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:49,079 part of Vatican One. I'm sure Novasorto Catholics don't even care. But I 977 01:33:49,079 --> 01:33:51,720 think the Trads are correct on this. I think it is intended to be 978 01:33:53,159 --> 01:33:57,199 part of Vatican I mean it's the pope condemning ideas that are heterodox. So 979 01:33:58,000 --> 01:34:00,640 I mean, surely the Pope knows right, shouldn't he know, I mean, 980 01:34:00,640 --> 01:34:02,960 it's the popa Vatican. One wouldn't pie us the ninth. No, 981 01:34:05,479 --> 01:34:09,159 let's look at some of the errors that are condemned. We're going to start 982 01:34:09,199 --> 01:34:12,800 down at the bottom, because it gets really spicy towards the end, errors 983 01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:15,479 concerning modern liberalism. And in every one of the errors he actually mentions other 984 01:34:15,520 --> 01:34:20,760 papal documents to show that it's in concord with previous people teaching and his own 985 01:34:20,800 --> 01:34:28,199 people teaching. It is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held 986 01:34:28,239 --> 01:34:30,319 as the religion of the state to the exclusion of all other forms of worship. 987 01:34:30,520 --> 01:34:38,119 Condemned. There you go, right there, condemned. It has been 988 01:34:38,119 --> 01:34:44,640 wisely decided by law that in Catholic countries people should be able to retain their 989 01:34:44,680 --> 01:34:48,359 own particular types of worship. Condemned. These are condemned propositions. You understand 990 01:34:48,399 --> 01:34:50,399 that. I mean, I know there's a lot of slow people in the 991 01:34:50,439 --> 01:34:54,960 audies, but slow boys, these are condemned. Probably he's not teaching this. 992 01:34:54,960 --> 01:34:59,439 This is the condemned propeetition proposition. Moreover, it is false that every 993 01:34:59,439 --> 01:35:04,359 civil liberty of every form worship given all and overtly of all publicly manifesting any 994 01:35:04,479 --> 01:35:11,279 opinions whatsoever. Total freedom of thought and to the propagation of indifferentism condemned. 995 01:35:13,119 --> 01:35:17,079 Total freedom of pressed. The Pope should reconcile himself with progress, liberalism and 996 01:35:17,159 --> 01:35:26,039 modernism condemned. Now everything that is condemned, it's the very thing that the 997 01:35:26,079 --> 01:35:32,239 post vaticancvabacy has done. Let's see errors concerning natural ethics, Christian ethics. 998 01:35:33,359 --> 01:35:43,039 Moral laws do not come from God, they're atheistic. Science and philosophy are 999 01:35:43,319 --> 01:35:47,319 immune to the divine authority, and the Church authority condemned. So again all 1000 01:35:47,359 --> 01:35:51,640 these kind of relate, that kind of go together. Right, Authority is 1001 01:35:51,680 --> 01:35:56,760 nothing but the sum total of material forces. So authority coming from the people 1002 01:35:56,840 --> 01:36:02,279 up. That is not a top down thing from God. Rights just exist 1003 01:36:02,359 --> 01:36:10,600 in material facts. There's no rights in duties beyond material facts. So let's 1004 01:36:10,600 --> 01:36:15,560 see errors about marriage. This talks about divorce. But I want to get 1005 01:36:15,600 --> 01:36:27,199 over here to the state as the origin source of all rights is not subscribed, 1006 01:36:27,239 --> 01:36:32,720 ascribed by any limits condemned. So you can't have statism without the role 1007 01:36:32,760 --> 01:36:38,920 of the divine authority of the Church. The teaching of the Catholic Church is 1008 01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:45,560 hostile to social order. Condemned. The civil government, even if it's run 1009 01:36:45,600 --> 01:36:49,840 by an infidel, has a right to indirect negative power over the church. 1010 01:36:51,960 --> 01:37:00,720 Condemned. In the case of a conflicting challenge of law between the two powers 1011 01:37:00,720 --> 01:37:06,159 of church and state, the state prevails condemned. The state has authority to 1012 01:37:06,199 --> 01:37:15,720 shut down and tell the church what they do. Condemned. The state can 1013 01:37:16,000 --> 01:37:25,920 interfere in the administration of the sacraments condemned. State can make decisions about religious 1014 01:37:25,920 --> 01:37:33,159 seminaries condemned. The best theory of civil society is one which is completely open 1015 01:37:33,239 --> 01:37:39,159 and free from all ecclesiastical authority. In other words, a complete separation of 1016 01:37:39,199 --> 01:37:45,520 church and state. Condemned by the way, that's Americanism. Catholics can approve 1017 01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:53,960 of the system of education that is without the religious Catholic faith condemned, so 1018 01:37:54,079 --> 01:38:02,920 state schools condemned. The civil power may prove the bishops of the church from 1019 01:38:03,119 --> 01:38:12,640 speaking to and communicating with the Bishop of Rome. Condemned. Laity and state 1020 01:38:12,760 --> 01:38:21,840 civil people is talking about possess the right presenting the bishops condemned. Laity can 1021 01:38:21,880 --> 01:38:30,600 depose bishops condemned. Government can, by its own right alter the age prescribed 1022 01:38:30,640 --> 01:38:33,880 by the Church of the religious professional men and women. So another one about 1023 01:38:33,880 --> 01:38:38,760 taking vowels and when you're a Christian and stepping into the fairs of the church. 1024 01:38:38,800 --> 01:38:41,399 Anyways, on and on and on. Right, kings and princes are 1025 01:38:41,399 --> 01:38:46,319 exempted from the Church condemned. Church must be separated from the from the state, 1026 01:38:46,359 --> 01:38:54,520 and the state from the Church condemned. So does this sound like the 1027 01:38:54,600 --> 01:39:02,279 same teachings Vatican two is dignetatis himane the Declaration on total religious freedom, no 1028 01:39:14,560 --> 01:39:25,439 independence of church and state. So the very thing condemned is the very thing 1029 01:39:26,720 --> 01:39:34,840 said to be the teaching of the Church in Christ indignitatis himani. So this 1030 01:39:34,920 --> 01:39:43,319 is essentially a surrendering of between Murri Voss and Lamentabili and the other sixteen papal 1031 01:39:43,359 --> 01:39:46,760 documents up to the time of Vatican two. And here's the irony is that 1032 01:39:47,239 --> 01:39:57,399 nobody has mentioned quas primus except a few treads, I'm sure. So as 1033 01:39:57,479 --> 01:40:08,239 late as nineteen twenty five, get this, As late as nineteen twenty five, 1034 01:40:11,000 --> 01:40:18,239 the papacy instituted a feast called Christ the King. Every tried Catholic knows 1035 01:40:18,279 --> 01:40:28,319 about Christ the King Qua's primus. And this was intended to prop up the 1036 01:40:28,359 --> 01:40:32,600 traditional teaching that the state cannot be separate from the church, the Church can 1037 01:40:32,680 --> 01:40:39,760 be separated from the state, that you can't make a atheistic, independent state 1038 01:40:40,840 --> 01:40:49,039 separate from the Church if you're a Christian and a Catholic. So as late 1039 01:40:49,079 --> 01:40:55,119 as nineteen twenty five piously eleven, that was still upholding the things that we 1040 01:40:55,199 --> 01:41:08,079 just saw in mariarri Voss and the lamentabili Syllabus sabers. Now Feast of Christ 1041 01:41:08,159 --> 01:41:12,600 the King is nineteen twenty five, So it only took from nineteen twenty five 1042 01:41:12,760 --> 01:41:18,319 to nineteen what year is nineteen sixty five, okay, twenty five to sist 1043 01:41:18,399 --> 01:41:26,439 for forty years. So imagine we're supposed to believe that the Holy Spirit is 1044 01:41:26,479 --> 01:41:33,560 guiding the Roman Caolic Church, but between nineteen twenty five and nineteen sixty five. 1045 01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:42,920 In nineteen twenty five, the Holy Spirit wants Christian Catholic states. But 1046 01:41:42,960 --> 01:41:46,600 by nineteen sixty five that should be done away with, And that's not a 1047 01:41:46,600 --> 01:41:51,640 contradiction, even though the nineteen sixty five position is called a demonic delusion and 1048 01:41:51,720 --> 01:42:01,880 condemned. So now I know that there's a million Catholic copes for this I 1049 01:42:01,960 --> 01:42:05,439 made all those same copes. I tried for many, many years to make 1050 01:42:05,520 --> 01:42:10,880 this work. But if you're a Protestant, your senters, ah huh, 1051 01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:12,880 I like it, Jay, I like what you're saying. Yeah, downward 1052 01:42:12,960 --> 01:42:16,560 them papers, get rid of them babies. Man, Yeah, that's w 1053 01:42:16,680 --> 01:42:23,880 I'm done. Bat Wait a minute. As a Protestant, who are you 1054 01:42:23,920 --> 01:42:27,960 going to look to what's your teaching? You're not in any better position. 1055 01:42:29,000 --> 01:42:32,279 In fact, you're in a worse position because we at least agree with the 1056 01:42:32,319 --> 01:42:38,880 basic traditional Roman Catholic teaching as Orthodox traditionally, my Orthodox that aren't just worshipers 1057 01:42:38,880 --> 01:42:45,199 of the American Deep State or of the State Department like the EP and marching 1058 01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,760 to the tune of whatever the State Department says. I mean, they basically 1059 01:42:48,840 --> 01:43:00,039 are a state church. They're the state church of the State Department. So 1060 01:43:02,880 --> 01:43:09,920 how are you, as a Protestant in a better position, Because as a 1061 01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:14,760 Protestant, you don't really have any clear way to deal with this. And 1062 01:43:14,800 --> 01:43:18,119 if you look at the history of the Protestant nations, they were miserable failures. 1063 01:43:18,479 --> 01:43:23,239 I'm not talking about monetary failures, so I'm not making a Roman Catholic 1064 01:43:23,319 --> 01:43:25,840 argument of like we've got more money and we've got more numbers, so we 1065 01:43:25,880 --> 01:43:30,119 win. You know, the relationship between church and state in the Protestant nations 1066 01:43:30,199 --> 01:43:36,520 failed. Why because as soon as the state became the sort of arbiter and 1067 01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:44,439 adjudicator of the church. Because the early Protestant Reformation was Erastian or Cicero papist, 1068 01:43:45,880 --> 01:43:48,760 there was always going to be this struggle between the two. And ultimately 1069 01:43:48,840 --> 01:43:54,920 you can go back to dignititus dictatus pope. That's a struggle between church and 1070 01:43:54,920 --> 01:43:57,800 state, where the pope just says, I'm the state and the church. 1071 01:43:58,439 --> 01:44:03,119 It's a single headed eagle, and now I'm both heads and one. But 1072 01:44:03,159 --> 01:44:12,800 the Byzantine double headed eagle is the classic Byzantine symbol, which expresses the Orthodox 1073 01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:17,199 view, not saying that it's always been done right, but expresses the Orthodox 1074 01:44:17,319 --> 01:44:29,600 view of two spheres that operate in their own boundaries, that ideally work in 1075 01:44:29,640 --> 01:44:39,039 harmony and symphonia. Symphonia is the meaning of the Orthodox view. That's the 1076 01:44:39,119 --> 01:44:42,199 term that signifies the meaning of the Orthodox view of church and state. Ideally, 1077 01:44:44,600 --> 01:44:46,960 it's the idea here is that when we have a majority of Christian society, 1078 01:44:47,239 --> 01:44:53,560 the ruler will be operating on Christian principles in his sphere. So that 1079 01:44:53,640 --> 01:45:00,840 means that he will be able to determine punishments for evildoers. He will be 1080 01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:04,239 able to have a role like almost like a deacon. If you remember, 1081 01:45:04,239 --> 01:45:10,079 in the businessing Empire, the emperor could go behind the Iconostasius. He was, 1082 01:45:10,479 --> 01:45:18,680 he was considered a type of deacon. But he cannot tell the church 1083 01:45:18,720 --> 01:45:25,159 what to do. He can't change the church, and emperors that tried to 1084 01:45:25,159 --> 01:45:30,279 do that ended up excommunicated Aryan emperors, Iconic class emperors. If the Orthodox 1085 01:45:30,399 --> 01:45:34,000 Church was run by emperors, they would have turned it into all kinds of 1086 01:45:34,000 --> 01:45:39,359 insane heresies. Right, it would have been Rian, it would have been 1087 01:45:39,520 --> 01:45:45,600 Iconoclass, or even worse, who knows. So it doesn't mean that the 1088 01:45:45,680 --> 01:45:53,119 ruler will always be faithful to his Christianity anymore than even Caesar as a diaconos 1089 01:45:53,560 --> 01:45:58,119 in a sense of the pagan Caesars. Right, they still had a role, 1090 01:45:58,880 --> 01:46:01,119 but they were still but they were wicked, and so it was right 1091 01:46:01,199 --> 01:46:05,399 to defy them at times. Okay, So it's not a worship of authority 1092 01:46:06,079 --> 01:46:09,079 if it's a worship of authority, which by the way, is what the 1093 01:46:09,079 --> 01:46:14,279 papal system is the whole papal system is based around the worship of human authority 1094 01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:23,119 and historical authority. No, at times it is right to oppose authority when 1095 01:46:23,159 --> 01:46:26,760 they go against the higher authority. So that's the principle. Even Aquinas says 1096 01:46:26,800 --> 01:46:30,560 this right, it's wrong. It's right at times to oppose both kings and 1097 01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:33,359 bishops when they overstep their authority. If you're, for example, you're a 1098 01:46:33,439 --> 01:46:38,239 lay person. If the bishop comes and says, give me your house, 1099 01:46:38,800 --> 01:46:41,560 you owe me your property, well no, he's stepping over He's not the 1100 01:46:41,640 --> 01:46:45,239 right to do that. The bishop can't tell you to give give me give 1101 01:46:45,359 --> 01:46:46,840 the church your property. I own it now I'm the bishop. You must 1102 01:46:46,880 --> 01:46:57,479 worship my authority. No, that's overstepping the boundaries. Likewise, kings can't 1103 01:46:57,520 --> 01:47:05,800 tell the church I mandate that you worship me as Christ. And it's no 1104 01:47:05,880 --> 01:47:11,520 longer the Trinity, it's now the Emperor is God right. The emperor can't 1105 01:47:11,520 --> 01:47:14,640 do that. He can try to do that, but he excommunicates himself in 1106 01:47:14,720 --> 01:47:18,399 doing that. And it is the duty and right of every Christian to oppose 1107 01:47:18,439 --> 01:47:21,880 them. Now, it doesn't mean that we oppose them by like taking up 1108 01:47:21,960 --> 01:47:28,439 arms. It means that we don't submit to those rulings in situations where, 1109 01:47:29,880 --> 01:47:31,319 you know, if the state comes and trusts to, you know, make 1110 01:47:31,399 --> 01:47:35,319 us martyrs, we have to be martyrs. And the only time that it 1111 01:47:35,399 --> 01:47:41,520 might be right to engage in self defense would be in situations where that's appropriate 1112 01:47:41,600 --> 01:47:46,720 to do. Okay, if somebody breaks into my house. Let's say, 1113 01:47:46,720 --> 01:47:51,199 a religious fanatic breaks into my house and I will kill your wife and children 1114 01:47:51,680 --> 01:47:58,239 for allah, Okay, and he's going to go, you know, r 1115 01:47:58,279 --> 01:48:00,920 ape or something. My wife is I have a duty to defend my family, 1116 01:48:04,439 --> 01:48:08,439 and in that case, there's a good chance that I could stop him 1117 01:48:08,439 --> 01:48:11,640 from doing that, right because it's one on one or something. Now, 1118 01:48:11,680 --> 01:48:18,800 if an entire brigade of I don't know, Saudi warriors show up at my 1119 01:48:18,920 --> 01:48:23,920 house, like America gets abated by Saudi's or something, I don't know, 1120 01:48:24,720 --> 01:48:30,640 and they say come outside and confess a lot, or we chop your heads 1121 01:48:30,640 --> 01:48:34,680 off, Okay, Obviously that's not a situation where it would be appropriate to 1122 01:48:34,720 --> 01:48:39,119 try to engage in self defense. It's not gonna work. That would clearly 1123 01:48:39,159 --> 01:48:45,840 be a providential call to martyrdom and not a providential call to self defense. 1124 01:48:46,359 --> 01:48:50,479 So you see how it's not always a one size fits all, black and 1125 01:48:50,479 --> 01:48:56,119 white answer to these types of questions, and so likewise, the relationship between 1126 01:48:56,159 --> 01:48:58,720 church and state might not always be black and white either. There's going to 1127 01:48:58,760 --> 01:49:01,319 be canon law, there's gonna be history, there's gonna be historical precedent, 1128 01:49:01,760 --> 01:49:08,039 there's gonna be a biblical theology that all plays into. Hopefully, we have 1129 01:49:08,239 --> 01:49:16,039 wise people, wise men who can navigate these things. A wise man like 1130 01:49:16,119 --> 01:49:21,760 Solomon is able to apply the right law and the right medicine at the right 1131 01:49:21,840 --> 01:49:30,239 time. And so it's not a spergatron thing where there's some ethereal infinite list 1132 01:49:30,319 --> 01:49:33,239 of the right and wrong things to do in every situation that doesn't exist. 1133 01:49:34,239 --> 01:49:36,359 And as you get older, you're gonna learn that. You're gonna figure that 1134 01:49:36,399 --> 01:49:45,880 out. Stop being such a spurg. We're gonna look at a few more 1135 01:49:45,920 --> 01:49:47,399 texts, by the way, that also point this out. And then I'm 1136 01:49:47,399 --> 01:49:51,479 gonna open it up to Q and A. I forgot to turn the Q 1137 01:49:51,560 --> 01:49:57,439 and A on, but they're not even I wonder if my space is still 1138 01:49:57,439 --> 01:50:02,720 there. Let's see, I don't know what I've never known what happens if 1139 01:50:02,760 --> 01:50:14,920 you like, forget your space or something that is still there. Let's see, 1140 01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:20,720 right, we'll try it all right, So I don't know if anybody's 1141 01:50:20,720 --> 01:50:30,640 going to show up or not, but noah M five dollars kind of republic 1142 01:50:30,680 --> 01:50:36,800 or classical liberal system of government such as American produce a virtuous society. I 1143 01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:43,159 mean it's hard to say, Like, I think that it's possible, plausible 1144 01:50:43,239 --> 01:50:46,960 perhaps, but you know, we don't have a whole lot of examples of 1145 01:50:47,000 --> 01:50:50,680 classical liberalism. I mean, we've only got Enlightenment upwards, and that's not 1146 01:50:50,840 --> 01:50:58,359 a huge number of countries. So it kind of depends on what you think 1147 01:50:58,479 --> 01:51:01,119 the goods of a society are. So you ask me, can it produce 1148 01:51:01,159 --> 01:51:05,920 a virtuous society? And how is a monarchy better? Well, what we 1149 01:51:05,960 --> 01:51:12,119 think the goods of a society are are going to partly determine how we pick 1150 01:51:12,159 --> 01:51:15,720 out successful and non successful societies. If we think of society as only successful 1151 01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:23,319 on the basis of monetary gain, financial security, trade, and so for, 1152 01:51:23,479 --> 01:51:28,359 then we'll think of sort of purely temporal things. But maybe that's not 1153 01:51:28,520 --> 01:51:34,359 the ultimate healthy good society. Maybe a society where vices are attempted to be 1154 01:51:34,439 --> 01:51:41,439 punished is better than a society that holds up monetary gain as the most important 1155 01:51:41,439 --> 01:51:46,119 thing, or luxury is the most important thing. I mean, maybe not. 1156 01:51:46,680 --> 01:51:50,039 Maybe you have some argument why it's not. I'm just saying that how 1157 01:51:50,079 --> 01:51:54,680 we judge a society as good or bad, or virtuous or non virtuous, 1158 01:51:54,760 --> 01:51:58,560 or more successful or less successful is based on our presuppositions about what we think 1159 01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:03,239 success is. Is it something purely inporral, purely monetary, or our societies 1160 01:52:03,239 --> 01:52:10,479 that also include religious and spiritual values, perhaps they're more successful. Again, 1161 01:52:10,600 --> 01:52:15,239 there's no self evident idea of what a successful society is. You see, 1162 01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:19,680 how is traditional monarchy any better? Well, the entire history of the world 1163 01:52:20,159 --> 01:52:26,760 until the Enlightenment was typically some form of monarchy, So there's something inherent to 1164 01:52:26,920 --> 01:52:33,199 that type of government, the type of rule that humans gravitated. Why is 1165 01:52:33,239 --> 01:52:41,960 it really a vast conspiracy of devious people who want to enslave everybody? Or 1166 01:52:42,000 --> 01:52:48,720 is there something natural to following virtuous, noble people. Maybe human beings follow 1167 01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:57,840 in a hierarchy noble virtuous human beings. And a lot of the Enlightenment is 1168 01:52:57,840 --> 01:53:04,880 based on a lot of ungrounded, unfounded assumptions and presuppositions, such as the 1169 01:53:04,960 --> 01:53:10,399 idea that everybody is in some sort of proto equality situation. We're all kind 1170 01:53:10,439 --> 01:53:24,399 of sort of potentially equal. No we're not. Now. I don't mean 1171 01:53:24,439 --> 01:53:28,319 by that that all the Enlightenment philosophers believed in egalitarianism, but I'm saying that 1172 01:53:28,560 --> 01:53:34,479 the beginnings of nascent egalitarianism pop up at this time. You get a more 1173 01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:40,560 radical version of this egalitarianism with the French Revolution. Liberty equality fraternity, right, 1174 01:53:41,039 --> 01:53:46,760 this is essentially an anti church, anti monarchy phraseology. That's the meaning 1175 01:53:46,800 --> 01:53:50,279 of liberty, equality fraternity, and that's why they go against church and state. 1176 01:53:50,520 --> 01:53:57,239 The rituals of a lot of the free Masonic revolutionary lodges included tearing down 1177 01:53:57,319 --> 01:54:01,000 throne and altar, Church and state. Everything that is the double Byzantine, 1178 01:54:01,439 --> 01:54:06,720 the double headed Byzantine Eagle. And by the way, this is a good 1179 01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:20,960 book reflections of a Russian statesment on this very point. So come over here 1180 01:54:23,920 --> 01:54:25,760 next, I want to look at a few texts. I gotta spend a 1181 01:54:25,760 --> 01:54:29,800 whole lot of time on this, but we're gonna point out again circling back 1182 01:54:29,840 --> 01:54:41,880 to the beginning of the talk, which has to do with christ is keen. 1183 01:54:41,960 --> 01:54:46,119 What does that mean? Was tied to the threefold office, as we 1184 01:54:46,199 --> 01:54:50,640 said, and one of the earliest prophecies of the Messiah. It's not the 1185 01:54:50,680 --> 01:54:54,960 only one. There's tons and tons of I mean, if you include typology, 1186 01:54:55,560 --> 01:55:02,039 there's prophecies of the Messiah everywhere, because the typology also becomes Christological Messianic 1187 01:55:02,079 --> 01:55:08,279 prophecy. But in Genesis forty nine, when we have the statements to the 1188 01:55:10,920 --> 01:55:17,600 tribes and here Judah, so the statements to Judah and Genesis forty nine, 1189 01:55:18,039 --> 01:55:25,439 who's Judah here? Who's the one that comes from Judah? Jesus, Judah, 1190 01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:30,800 Jesus, you are the one whom your brothers will praise. Your hand 1191 01:55:30,800 --> 01:55:33,039 will be on the neck of your enemies. Your father's children will bow before 1192 01:55:33,119 --> 01:55:39,279 you. Judah is a lion's wealth, the lion of the tribe of Judah. 1193 01:55:41,159 --> 01:55:44,000 From the pray my son you have gone up, he bows down, 1194 01:55:44,039 --> 01:55:47,479 He lies down like a lion, as a lion. And who will arouse 1195 01:55:47,560 --> 01:55:53,760 him? The royal scepter? The scepter, you understand, a sceptor is 1196 01:55:53,800 --> 01:56:00,560 a royal term, will not depart from the house of Judah. Judah will 1197 01:56:00,560 --> 01:56:04,920 be the royal lineage. So all of you goobers who think that the Bible 1198 01:56:05,000 --> 01:56:12,399 is anti monarchy. Aren't even aware that in Genesis forty nine is predicting the 1199 01:56:12,479 --> 01:56:19,239 Royal House of David, the Davidic Covenant. And if the Bible is anti 1200 01:56:19,279 --> 01:56:24,640 monarchy, if the law the total anti monarchy, why does Moses right a 1201 01:56:24,680 --> 01:56:30,319 book of laws for kings? Now this is biblical ignorance. People just know 1202 01:56:30,439 --> 01:56:34,279 that. Well, there's a verse that talks about Samuel says, you want 1203 01:56:34,279 --> 01:56:42,039 a king. I don't know why I start talking to doctor phil But now 1204 01:56:42,039 --> 01:56:45,680 it's just total biblical ignorance that thinks that. I mean, have you read 1205 01:56:45,720 --> 01:56:49,239 the Book of Kings. I mean, like it's all about royal houses and 1206 01:56:49,680 --> 01:56:59,439 it's like Game of Thrones. Dude, what are you talking about? The 1207 01:56:59,520 --> 01:57:04,000 scepter will not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet. 1208 01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:10,279 That's talking about his descent, his descendants in the House of Judah until Shiloh 1209 01:57:10,319 --> 01:57:14,720 comes. Shiloh is Jesus, the most famous, super famous Messianic prophecy, 1210 01:57:15,960 --> 01:57:19,920 and unto him will be the obedience of the nations. So it's gentile nations 1211 01:57:19,920 --> 01:57:27,319 will obey Shiloh the Messiah, the descendant of David, the royal descendant of 1212 01:57:27,359 --> 01:57:30,560 the Royal House of David. And guess what happens when Jesus comes No more 1213 01:57:30,560 --> 01:57:42,239 House of David because Israel's destroyed, So the scepter departs from Judah. So 1214 01:57:42,319 --> 01:57:50,800 the first Messianic prophecy that identifies Shiloh as the one to whom the gentiles look 1215 01:57:50,840 --> 01:58:03,119 from the House of Judah tribe of Judah, specifically identifies monarchy a royal lineage. 1216 01:58:03,560 --> 01:58:08,000 Now, there's tons and tons of passages in Proverbs, tons of passages 1217 01:58:08,039 --> 01:58:13,359 in the psalms that refer to kings princes. I mean, has anybody read 1218 01:58:13,479 --> 01:58:16,880 Proverbs? I mean there's like tons of proverbs that tell you to listen to 1219 01:58:16,920 --> 01:58:19,359 the king, obey the king. The king speaks the words of God, 1220 01:58:19,479 --> 01:58:26,039 so it's kingly. It talks about behaving and acting in a noble way, 1221 01:58:26,720 --> 01:58:32,720 nobility. The Protestants, the Prosestes not read Proverbs. I mean, what 1222 01:58:33,039 --> 01:58:38,600 you guys think that Proverbs is made up? Like, Oh, it doesn't 1223 01:58:38,600 --> 01:58:41,039 matter, remore, it's old Testament. Oh really, then how come Peter 1224 01:58:41,239 --> 01:58:46,359 says obey the king citing the same principles and proverbs. So Peter doesn't count. 1225 01:58:46,399 --> 01:58:55,359 Now, well those ancient world Yeah, but so what all of this 1226 01:58:55,399 --> 01:58:59,000 is from the ancient world. What are you talking about? Now? Here's 1227 01:58:59,000 --> 01:59:01,399 a huge mistake to s smake, and even some Roman Catholic Orthodox make this 1228 01:59:01,479 --> 01:59:08,600 mistake. And the priest by the way, six years ago, seven years 1229 01:59:08,600 --> 01:59:11,880 ago that I had a heated discussion with, he also made this mistake. 1230 01:59:14,600 --> 01:59:16,680 Everybody thinks. I don't know why. I think it's just kind of a 1231 01:59:16,720 --> 01:59:25,159 Protestant like default, because an Evangelical Protestant default people think this verse is about 1232 01:59:25,159 --> 01:59:38,399 the Second Coming, and perhaps some executes have thought it was. So do 1233 01:59:38,479 --> 01:59:45,399 we not have any mods? We got these filthy people just talking about nasty 1234 01:59:45,640 --> 01:59:51,399 stuff in the chat all day long. We got a spamming coomer in the 1235 01:59:51,520 --> 01:59:56,199 chat. So are there no mods here? Do my mods not come anymore? 1236 01:59:56,239 --> 02:00:04,079 I don't know. So let's see we need to make slow boylmo. 1237 02:00:04,239 --> 02:00:23,039 Here we go, so slow boys now a maud is in Jibb anyway. 1238 02:00:23,840 --> 02:00:26,960 So in the vision of the Ancient of Days famous prophecy of Daniel seven, 1239 02:00:27,720 --> 02:00:30,159 I watched, and thrones were put in place. The Ancient of Days was 1240 02:00:30,199 --> 02:00:32,640 seated. His gruma's white as noosed here was pure wool. His throne was 1241 02:00:32,720 --> 02:00:36,279 fiery flame wheels, burning fire fire stream issue before him and came before him. 1242 02:00:36,319 --> 02:00:40,319 Thousands ministered to him. Tens of thousands too before him, the court 1243 02:00:40,399 --> 02:00:44,119 was seated, books were open. I watched the pompous words of the beast. 1244 02:00:45,439 --> 02:00:49,359 Its body was destroyed and given to the burning flame. So the rest 1245 02:00:49,359 --> 02:00:54,079 of the beasts that are dominion taken away. I watched in the visions, 1246 02:00:54,079 --> 02:00:57,279 and behold, one like a son of Man, came with the clouds of 1247 02:00:57,279 --> 02:01:00,960 heaven to the Ancient of Days. Now everybody reads this, and they make 1248 02:01:01,000 --> 02:01:08,319 the mistake of thinking that, oh, well, that's Jesus in the first 1249 02:01:08,319 --> 02:01:13,319 part, Ancient of Days, and so this uh one in the who's ascending 1250 02:01:13,359 --> 02:01:19,399 in the clouds like a son of Man, that's oh Jesus. Okay. 1251 02:01:19,520 --> 02:01:25,680 So the orthodox understanding this passage is that the Ancient of Days is the Father. 1252 02:01:26,319 --> 02:01:28,640 But wait a minute, we can't image the Father, correct, So 1253 02:01:28,760 --> 02:01:31,479 how is the Father imaged here? The same way that John the Book of 1254 02:01:31,520 --> 02:01:36,039 Revelation and Ezekiel and Ezekiel one to ten images the Son. I'm talking about 1255 02:01:36,039 --> 02:01:40,920 Revelation like one, two and three where John talks about him being having white 1256 02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:48,359 hair and you know, seeing his glory and so forth. But this one 1257 02:01:48,359 --> 02:01:53,640 coming on the clouds of heaven. This is the ascension. This is not 1258 02:01:53,720 --> 02:01:59,880 the end of the world. It's the ascension because Jesus in acts one ascend 1259 02:02:00,439 --> 02:02:04,960 And does nobody remember in the New Testament every time Psalm one ten is cited. 1260 02:02:06,000 --> 02:02:13,159 When Psalm one ten is cited, Evangelicals and Americanist Orthodox and confused people, 1261 02:02:14,880 --> 02:02:17,880 how does Psalm one ten interpret How is it interpreted in the New Testament? 1262 02:02:18,399 --> 02:02:24,720 Citations sit at my right hand, and I'll make your enemies your footstool. 1263 02:02:25,359 --> 02:02:29,399 When was this sitting at the right hand? Is it the second Coming? 1264 02:02:29,640 --> 02:02:33,199 Where on earth do any of these people and you people in the audience, 1265 02:02:33,199 --> 02:02:40,319 where do you guys get the idea that this is the second Coming? 1266 02:02:40,880 --> 02:02:45,119 Patrick Ireland, if you have issues, you're welcome to come debate. You're 1267 02:02:45,159 --> 02:02:49,399 saying stop fighting with the papacy. The papacy you say I should fight Muslims. 1268 02:02:49,840 --> 02:02:53,199 The papacy is in line with the Muslims. What are you talking about? 1269 02:02:53,359 --> 02:02:56,520 Patrick? You want to come talk about this. Francis basically is a 1270 02:02:56,600 --> 02:02:59,640 Muslim. He goes in praising in the mosque with the Muslim worms mic. 1271 02:02:59,640 --> 02:03:04,760 What do you thay talking about? So it's the Father presented in the imagery 1272 02:03:04,800 --> 02:03:11,680 of the son, because you can't image the father, and it's the incarnate 1273 02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:15,920 one like a son of Man, ascending to him to receive what what does 1274 02:03:15,960 --> 02:03:19,159 he receive? I watched in the night visions, and one like the son 1275 02:03:19,159 --> 02:03:24,560 of Man came in the clouds of heaven to the ancient days. They were 1276 02:03:24,560 --> 02:03:28,600 brought near before him, and to him was given dominion, glory, kingdom, 1277 02:03:28,840 --> 02:03:32,159 that all people's nations and tongues should serve him. His dominions everlasting. 1278 02:03:32,359 --> 02:03:36,479 His kingdom is the one will not be destroyed. That's the ascension, and 1279 02:03:36,479 --> 02:03:45,800 I'm improve it to you. Revelation five. Now the lamb, when you 1280 02:03:45,800 --> 02:03:48,560 had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty four elders bowed 1281 02:03:48,600 --> 02:03:53,159 down before the lamb, each having a harp and golden bowls of incense, 1282 02:03:53,319 --> 02:03:56,520 which are the prayers of the saints. That's intercession of the saints. By 1283 02:03:56,520 --> 02:04:00,000 the way, Protestants, the saints in heaven are doing a liturgy where they're 1284 02:04:00,119 --> 02:04:04,000 offering the prayers of the saints as incense. They sang a new song worthy 1285 02:04:04,000 --> 02:04:06,520 of you to take the stroll to open its seals. You were slaying. 1286 02:04:06,560 --> 02:04:10,760 You redeemed us to go obviously talking about Jesus. Okay, Jesus being worshiped 1287 02:04:10,800 --> 02:04:15,479 in heaven from every tribe tongue in nation. You made us kings and priests 1288 02:04:15,560 --> 02:04:23,399 to God, we will reign on the earth. Then I looked and behold 1289 02:04:23,399 --> 02:04:27,079 the voice of many living creatures, elders, ten thousands of ten thousands up 1290 02:04:27,600 --> 02:04:33,800 same language as Daniel John and John five. I mean relation five is consciously 1291 02:04:33,800 --> 02:04:42,960 clearly pulling from Daniel seven worthy as a lamb to be worshiped. So Jesus, 1292 02:04:42,960 --> 02:04:45,760 by the way, is worshiped by all creation, which refutes all the 1293 02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:51,359 arians and toes witnesses singing he's a creature. You can't worship creatures, but 1294 02:04:51,640 --> 02:05:00,159 he's given authority, power and dominion. You see that now, similar situation 1295 02:05:00,319 --> 02:05:09,079 Revelation nineteen. So the horror, Babylon city is destroyed, it falls, 1296 02:05:11,880 --> 02:05:16,399 The elders say Allelujah, Praise God. There's a great sound of a voice 1297 02:05:16,439 --> 02:05:25,159 of multitude, a god omnipotent reins. They're wearing the fine linen, the 1298 02:05:25,159 --> 02:05:29,560 bright robes, which are the righteous acts of the saints. Then there's the 1299 02:05:29,560 --> 02:05:34,079 marriage south of the lamb. And then we see the rider on the horse, 1300 02:05:34,119 --> 02:05:38,399 which is not Antichrist, by the way, shows us that the rider 1301 02:05:38,439 --> 02:05:44,279 on the white horse is the person of Christ called faithful, true in righteousness. 1302 02:05:44,319 --> 02:05:47,399 He judges and makes war, eyes like a flame of fire, many 1303 02:05:47,399 --> 02:05:50,560 crowns on his head. He has the name that only he knows, clothing 1304 02:05:50,680 --> 02:05:54,880 rube dipped in blood. His name is Word of God. Okay, clearly 1305 02:05:55,039 --> 02:06:00,520 is Jesus. Out of his mouth goes a sharp sword with with it he 1306 02:06:00,520 --> 02:06:03,960 says, strike, strike the nations. Okay, this is not like evangelicals 1307 02:06:04,000 --> 02:06:08,800 think like lasers shooting out of the mouth of Jesus. Okay, it's if 1308 02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:12,279 you read the Psalms, the preaching of the Word of God is the rod 1309 02:06:12,359 --> 02:06:15,079 that comes in, the sword that comes out to rule the nations. So 1310 02:06:15,119 --> 02:06:20,119 it's the preaching of the Gospel. He treads the wine press the fierceness of 1311 02:06:20,159 --> 02:06:26,119 the wrath of Almighty God. And on his Robbie has a name King of 1312 02:06:26,199 --> 02:06:31,720 Kings and Lord of lords. So yeah, Christ is king. Obviously. 1313 02:06:33,279 --> 02:06:35,680 There was actually, I'm not kidding, there was an evangelical in the chat 1314 02:06:35,720 --> 02:06:45,880 at the beginning saying Jesus is not a king. We're Protestants. We believe 1315 02:06:45,960 --> 02:06:50,239 Jesus is our savior. Have you read the New Testament. I mean, 1316 02:06:50,279 --> 02:06:54,960 do you think that's the only phrase use of Jesus? So people are saying, 1317 02:06:55,000 --> 02:06:59,520 get the get the chat under control? Can you guys not Bannon? 1318 02:06:59,720 --> 02:07:04,760 Where's yeah? Which one's the bad guy? Where's the troll? I don't 1319 02:07:04,760 --> 02:07:14,680 see him. There's somebody banning. Yeah, I don't see the guy, 1320 02:07:14,760 --> 02:07:16,439 So I don't know how How could he be in the chat if I don't 1321 02:07:16,439 --> 02:07:32,039 see him? M of the live chat is slow, but I still don't 1322 02:07:32,079 --> 02:07:39,399 see anything. I don't see any of the trolling stuff. Where is he 1323 02:07:39,439 --> 02:07:48,159 at? Hmm? This is weird. Yeah, I banned the dude earlier, 1324 02:07:48,199 --> 02:07:49,920 so I don't know. I don't see how you could be back and 1325 02:07:49,960 --> 02:08:03,520 I couldn't see him. Mister gay conservative. That's so crazy. How is 1326 02:08:03,520 --> 02:08:05,600 it that you can't that I can't see a profile in my chat? That's 1327 02:08:05,600 --> 02:08:18,239 wild. Let me maybe if I refresh my control screen, I can see 1328 02:08:18,239 --> 02:08:31,520 it. Listen, we're going to open this up for questions. Okay, 1329 02:08:31,560 --> 02:08:35,439 so thank you, slow boy, appreciate that. Now. There's a lot 1330 02:08:35,479 --> 02:08:39,239 more passages that we could go to. But tonight, I think we've had 1331 02:08:39,319 --> 02:08:41,720 a good overview that you know, basically, we're at the point where to 1332 02:08:41,800 --> 02:08:48,520 sum this up. You know, clearly Christ does have a civil social role. 1333 02:08:50,720 --> 02:08:52,600 He is king of kings, he is lord of lords, he is 1334 02:08:52,760 --> 02:08:58,720 the king, even when he's not recognized as that. And it's not our 1335 02:08:58,800 --> 02:09:03,560 job first and foremost to make him politically, you know, recognized in a 1336 02:09:03,640 --> 02:09:09,039 completely insane pagan state. It's not going to work. That's why you have 1337 02:09:09,079 --> 02:09:13,439 to convert the majority of the masses of the people before you can try to 1338 02:09:13,479 --> 02:09:18,840 have a permeation of Christianity into the states and into the laws. And America 1339 02:09:18,920 --> 02:09:24,680 is already, because of its internal contradictions as an enlightenment and kind of sort 1340 02:09:24,720 --> 02:09:28,560 of pseudo Christian nation, it's really sort of chosen to go in the direction 1341 02:09:28,640 --> 02:09:33,319 of atheism and enlightenment away from the Christian elements that it had. So America 1342 02:09:33,359 --> 02:09:37,640 had both of these elements there, it's gone in that direction. So I 1343 02:09:37,640 --> 02:09:41,800 don't think anytime soon. I mean, again, it's possible we get some 1344 02:09:41,840 --> 02:09:46,880 sort of like massive Orthodox revival in the next twenty years and you know, 1345 02:09:46,479 --> 02:09:50,800 something like that. But outside of that, I just don't see the point 1346 02:09:50,880 --> 02:09:56,880 of thinking that you'll have a top down conversion of the state. So I 1347 02:09:56,920 --> 02:10:01,560 think we just need to focus on what we're doing, and if God grants 1348 02:10:01,640 --> 02:10:05,039 that, if we get a majority of people by some miracle. Remember the 1349 02:10:05,119 --> 02:10:09,239 Roman Empire took three centuries and millions of martyrs to get to that point. 1350 02:10:11,640 --> 02:10:18,760 So anyway, that's my take on that. Let's see or freezing. What's 1351 02:10:18,840 --> 02:10:22,800 up? So if you want to ask a question, pose an argument, 1352 02:10:22,000 --> 02:10:28,920 challenge, go ahead, Well, yes, sir, what's up? Hey? 1353 02:10:28,920 --> 02:10:33,560 I had two questions, if that's that's all right, okay, all 1354 02:10:33,640 --> 02:10:39,640 right. So you said it's not the Orthodox's job to convert the state rather 1355 02:10:39,680 --> 02:10:43,439 than just just to convert individuals and families. And I just wanted to know 1356 02:10:45,520 --> 02:10:50,319 what would be the problem with or what would be a moral about a movement 1357 02:10:50,359 --> 02:10:56,479 that sought to convert the state, or movement that wanted to enforce Orthodox Christian 1358 02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:01,640 morals on the country through political means, because it doesn't work to enforce those 1359 02:11:01,680 --> 02:11:07,960 things in a top down way. It's just it's not you can't do that 1360 02:11:09,399 --> 02:11:13,000 like the you need the will or the box. He believes in free will, 1361 02:11:13,039 --> 02:11:16,199 We believe in the consent of the people. It's not a uh, 1362 02:11:16,520 --> 02:11:20,479 you know, it's not a trad cat thing where we march in as crusaders, 1363 02:11:20,319 --> 02:11:24,760 uh, you know, and force these people to become Roman Catholic or 1364 02:11:24,760 --> 02:11:28,119 something. It's just it's just totally wrongheaded to the way that we think about 1365 02:11:28,119 --> 02:11:31,520 it. And the Church didn't do that in the first three centuries. Did 1366 02:11:31,520 --> 02:11:35,399 the Church go and try to convert Nero and Caligula? First? No, 1367 02:11:39,960 --> 02:11:46,399 okay, And my second question, I think earlier you kind of implied that 1368 02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:52,520 society some way you run by like pagans, and that the and that the 1369 02:11:52,600 --> 02:11:56,000 JQ as you put it, is in it's something that's not really worth talking 1370 02:11:56,000 --> 02:11:58,560 about. And I just want to get your take on that. Like, 1371 02:11:58,760 --> 02:12:03,920 yeah, I didn't say that though, So I said American society is pagan. 1372 02:12:03,600 --> 02:12:07,359 I didn't say any of that. I said American society as pagan. 1373 02:12:07,000 --> 02:12:11,000 I said that. I didn't say it was run by pagan's. I said 1374 02:12:11,000 --> 02:12:15,520 the people in the society are pagan. They're post Christian, and so you're 1375 02:12:15,560 --> 02:12:22,800 not going to get convert you know, the House and the Senate to Christianity 1376 02:12:22,840 --> 02:12:26,640 and then make them make everybody be moral in christian That's what I said. 1377 02:12:26,680 --> 02:12:33,119 And I said that I cover the more controversial topics not on YouTube. So 1378 02:12:33,199 --> 02:12:37,880 I said all of that, but maybe you didn't hear that, so it's 1379 02:12:37,920 --> 02:12:39,399 open for him. If you guys want to ask a question, come on, 1380 02:12:41,840 --> 02:12:46,159 you can request to speak. I'll give you the mic. It's just 1381 02:12:46,199 --> 02:12:50,399 interesting to me that nobody actually cares. So in this whole discussion of quote 1382 02:12:50,479 --> 02:12:54,760 Christ is King, no one actually cares about the theology and the history of 1383 02:12:54,760 --> 02:13:01,640 it. It's just a Twitter thing to talk about the Amish question. So 1384 02:13:05,520 --> 02:13:16,800 let's see Dmitri Dimitrios. Yeah, Patrick, that's not true. Uh would 1385 02:13:16,840 --> 02:13:22,079 be. Patrice has a whole video on Orthodoxy's history of mission works. Just 1386 02:13:22,159 --> 02:13:24,359 get rid of that guy, because if Patrick, if you're not going to 1387 02:13:24,399 --> 02:13:28,880 come and discuss in the the voice shot, then just why are you just 1388 02:13:28,000 --> 02:13:31,279 spamming all this stuff. It's waste of time. That's up. Yes, 1389 02:13:31,319 --> 02:13:37,239 sir, oh hypothetical question. I know you don't get many of these, 1390 02:13:37,279 --> 02:13:41,159 but you know, we keep on going back and forth on these papal decrees 1391 02:13:41,159 --> 02:13:46,600 and documents. What would it take for you to be like, let's say 1392 02:13:46,600 --> 02:13:50,039 the Pope tomorrow got up and had a decree and said, listen, I'm 1393 02:13:50,319 --> 02:13:56,079 advocating. I'm a first among equals, but I'm not unfallible. This is 1394 02:13:56,079 --> 02:14:03,079 the Philly way the way it should be forever more original sin and it's it's 1395 02:14:03,279 --> 02:14:07,000 nuances of the Orthodox Church is the correct way of looking at original thing? 1396 02:14:07,159 --> 02:14:09,880 Like what would it take for you to be like okay, let's let's go 1397 02:14:11,079 --> 02:14:15,199 union, it's time for union, Like what would it take? Just hypothetical 1398 02:14:15,239 --> 02:14:18,600 question, just curiosity on my part and what your thoughts would be on that. 1399 02:14:20,359 --> 02:14:24,840 Yeah, I mean it's we don't believe that there's like a future church 1400 02:14:26,000 --> 02:14:30,720 to be discovered. We think that the church always has its fundamental components of 1401 02:14:30,760 --> 02:14:35,359 being one holy, Catholic and Apostolic. So the only terms of union are 1402 02:14:35,119 --> 02:14:41,960 the Roman Sea rejoins the Orthodox Church on Orthodox terms. That's it, Okay, 1403 02:14:43,720 --> 02:14:45,960 just a hypotheticy. No, it's a great question. I don't mind 1404 02:14:45,960 --> 02:14:48,880 answering that. By the way, so people in the Chat, they're asking 1405 02:14:48,359 --> 02:14:52,319 sending the Orthodox don't do mission work, it's not true. Ubi Petris has 1406 02:14:52,439 --> 02:14:58,359 I think a three part series right here documentary that we made. First part 1407 02:14:58,520 --> 02:15:03,560 was the history of the Assyrian Mission. Second part is a history of Orthodox 1408 02:15:03,600 --> 02:15:07,920 missions for from ten thousand, from one thousand to sixteen hundred. So you 1409 02:15:07,920 --> 02:15:13,920 can watch these surf historical documentaries there. Thank you for those questions there, 1410 02:15:16,079 --> 02:15:28,760 Jim, next up is Sapphire? What's up? Man? So people that 1411 02:15:28,800 --> 02:15:31,399 are asking how can I call in? It's in the show description. It's 1412 02:15:31,640 --> 02:15:37,560 it's Twitter, It's it's calling through X. Hey, what's upping? I 1413 02:15:37,600 --> 02:15:39,760 have a few short questions if you don't mind hold on. I forgot to 1414 02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:43,840 put the link to the to the Twitter in here. I thought I put 1415 02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:46,079 it in the show description. I apologize I didn't put it in there, 1416 02:15:46,079 --> 02:15:48,319 So let me put it in here right now for you guys, I should 1417 02:15:48,319 --> 02:15:50,960 answer a question is yeah, go ahead? No, Wait, I can't 1418 02:15:52,000 --> 02:15:54,079 put it in there because I don't have not loving a little creepy, but 1419 02:15:54,840 --> 02:15:58,920 our demons the things we should be concerned about in our day to day life. 1420 02:16:00,840 --> 02:16:05,560 Yeah, but we don't have to like get superstitious about it. I 1421 02:16:05,640 --> 02:16:11,359 mean typically typically a good spiritual father will kind of, you know, coach 1422 02:16:11,439 --> 02:16:16,079 you and guide you into not going getting losing your you know, losing your 1423 02:16:16,119 --> 02:16:20,199 sanity or your or your peace. Uh, kind of worrying about demons too 1424 02:16:20,279 --> 02:16:22,600 much, I understand, But like, what are some like I mean, 1425 02:16:22,640 --> 02:16:26,039 I know you have videos on this topic, but what would you recommend if 1426 02:16:26,119 --> 02:16:37,520 someone's like concerned about the fact that is existently doing something or I'm thinking, 1427 02:16:39,399 --> 02:16:43,360 Well, a lot of people in the Orthodox Church even still like the Spiritual 1428 02:16:43,399 --> 02:16:48,280 Combat Book by Luigi's Scipoli. I think that's a book that a lot of 1429 02:16:48,360 --> 02:16:52,879 Orthodox people like. There's also the book it's like a three it's a if 1430 02:16:52,879 --> 02:16:56,399 you really want like a big long thing. There's a three part series called 1431 02:16:58,399 --> 02:17:03,360 Treatment of Spiritual Illnesses. Is a good book on that. Derek, what's 1432 02:17:03,440 --> 02:17:26,239 up? Derek? Got it? I'm mute, Derek. Hey, I'm 1433 02:17:26,280 --> 02:17:30,200 sorry. I know you just brought me if I just didn't. I didn't 1434 02:17:30,200 --> 02:17:33,079 hear anything once you brought me up, so I didn't see an introduction. 1435 02:17:33,200 --> 02:17:39,879 So I appreciate you bringing me up. And Jay trying to understand are you 1436 02:17:41,040 --> 02:17:46,280 a Catholic? Like I want to know because in order for me to answer 1437 02:17:46,360 --> 02:17:54,840 the question is Christ king? It requires me to understand who's asking that question. 1438 02:17:54,360 --> 02:18:00,479 Yeah, that's fair. I'm Orthodox, so Orthodox Christian? All right? 1439 02:18:00,639 --> 02:18:09,120 Well, so you follow a you know, a Catholicism, correct to 1440 02:18:09,319 --> 02:18:13,440 agree? I mean, we call ourselves the Orthodox Catholic Church, correct, 1441 02:18:13,520 --> 02:18:16,079 so, but we're not the Roman Catholic papal church, so we don't follow 1442 02:18:16,120 --> 02:18:20,120 the pope and we don't have, you know, a lot of those sort 1443 02:18:20,159 --> 02:18:22,719 of Roman Catholic trappings, but probably if you're a Protestant, you would think 1444 02:18:22,719 --> 02:18:28,760 we're quote Catholic. Yeah, okay. So here's what I Here's the reason 1445 02:18:28,799 --> 02:18:31,719 why I'm saying this is because I am first of all, the last thing 1446 02:18:31,760 --> 02:18:37,520 I want to do is have confrontations or arguments or anything about any religion. 1447 02:18:37,600 --> 02:18:41,639 Right, Because here's the one thing I know about God is he doesn't need 1448 02:18:41,719 --> 02:18:48,799 my defense. Right. It's not mere little me. He doesn't mean he 1449 02:18:48,840 --> 02:18:56,719 doesn't need me defending him, and neither is Christ. So I follow very 1450 02:18:56,840 --> 02:19:05,200 strictly Christ's words, specifically, not Peters, but Paul's no one. No 1451 02:19:05,200 --> 02:19:09,559 one else is but doesn't hold on. So doesn't Jesus say to the apostles, 1452 02:19:09,600 --> 02:19:13,159 he who hears you hears me. Well, that's what I'm saying. 1453 02:19:15,000 --> 02:19:22,120 So he who hears me, here's no No, he who hears you apostles 1454 02:19:22,239 --> 02:19:26,959 also hears me. Exactly, Father, all of you is in me. 1455 02:19:26,319 --> 02:19:30,639 All of you, Father, all of you isn't me. And the opposite, 1456 02:19:30,879 --> 02:19:33,000 that's the opposite of what you just said. No, but what I'm 1457 02:19:33,000 --> 02:19:37,280 saying is that I'm recating his high priestly parrector father. All of me is 1458 02:19:37,280 --> 02:19:39,719 in you and all of you. I'm not talking about high priestly prayers, 1459 02:19:39,799 --> 02:19:45,399 so that want him to have exactly what I have? Did he not say 1460 02:19:45,440 --> 02:19:48,000 that the very first thing that you said is wrong and I'm showing you how 1461 02:19:48,000 --> 02:19:52,479 it's wrong by the phrase he hears you he is wrong. But it's scripture, 1462 02:19:54,399 --> 02:19:56,879 all right, So he's not even gonna listen. So no point. 1463 02:19:56,440 --> 02:20:11,280 Cyril Karellian, what's up? What's up? You get on you? So 1464 02:20:11,319 --> 02:20:15,159 people say, oh, you're so mean. I multiple times explained what I 1465 02:20:15,200 --> 02:20:18,639 said. The guy didn't care what blue past. It wasn't gonna listen. 1466 02:20:18,719 --> 02:20:22,680 So if people don't react and interact with the point that I made after three 1467 02:20:22,760 --> 02:20:26,559 times, I'm not being mean by moving on. So I'm so tired of 1468 02:20:26,559 --> 02:20:33,360 this stuff. Piety pete five dollars. If I publicly signal all about my 1469 02:20:33,399 --> 02:20:35,520 prayer life, how many piety points do I get? Actually, I think 1470 02:20:35,559 --> 02:20:41,799 Elon is putting into place an algorithm where it will boost you the more you 1471 02:20:41,840 --> 02:20:48,120 post your prayers on Twitter, so a lot. So there's actually algorithmic tracking 1472 02:20:48,159 --> 02:20:52,520 now for your piety points unknown fifteen dollars If Israel builds a third temple and 1473 02:20:52,559 --> 02:21:01,000 sacrifices a red halfer in the Messiah does not come arrive. I don't know 1474 02:21:01,040 --> 02:21:03,040 what you mean by Massiah rise. I think you just mean they're asaicon. 1475 02:21:03,159 --> 02:21:11,000 Okay. Can the world evict European descendants from Palestine? Will they accept Christ? 1476 02:21:11,120 --> 02:21:16,959 Then? Actually, I do think there is a I think that the 1477 02:21:16,000 --> 02:21:20,879 Patristic teaching, in line with Romans eleven, is that there is a future 1478 02:21:20,920 --> 02:21:24,200 conversion of the Jews. And how that will happen or when that will happen, 1479 02:21:24,200 --> 02:21:26,559 I don't know, but I do think the Bible and the Church Fathers 1480 02:21:26,559 --> 02:21:31,719 teach that. Cyril says it, how the Nations talks about it. John 1481 02:21:31,799 --> 02:21:39,520 Damascus talks about the conversion of the Jews. I think Christalism too. Volunteer 1482 02:21:39,600 --> 02:21:46,200 two ninety four. Well, the Orthodox perspective is the reason that sexuality contains 1483 02:21:46,239 --> 02:21:54,120 a taboo scandal due to the fall of man. There is a connection between 1484 02:21:56,200 --> 02:22:01,200 the fall and how we reproduce. But I don't think that there's anything taboo 1485 02:22:01,360 --> 02:22:09,079 about sexuality or human sexuality itself, So that's an important distinction. Is it 1486 02:22:09,079 --> 02:22:11,559 connected to the shame of nakedness? Probably in some way. I don't know 1487 02:22:11,639 --> 02:22:16,760 exactly what I mean. There's the Church fathers dispute this and the question and 1488 02:22:16,799 --> 02:22:22,319 sort of speculate on this. How would the motive production happen in Eden? 1489 02:22:24,760 --> 02:22:28,760 We're not told some of the church fathers speculate about that. How will it 1490 02:22:28,799 --> 02:22:31,639 happen in the Escaton? I tend to think that there isn't reproduction in the 1491 02:22:31,760 --> 02:22:37,360 Escaton? So anyway, what's up? Man? Karellian? Thank you for 1492 02:22:37,399 --> 02:22:46,920 the super ship? Can you hear me? Yeah? What's up? Quick 1493 02:22:48,000 --> 02:22:52,959 question? I was listening to another stream. Some guy brought up a crystological 1494 02:22:52,079 --> 02:22:56,479 question which is actually rather interesting. I wanted to get your take on it. 1495 02:22:58,079 --> 02:23:03,920 Okay, so if if we believe that Christ's humanity was from Mary, 1496 02:23:05,520 --> 02:23:11,319 all right, this person was asking, what about the why chromosome? Where 1497 02:23:11,319 --> 02:23:20,000 does that come from? I'm not sure. Yeah, I thought it seems 1498 02:23:20,040 --> 02:23:24,520 like a very simple question, but it's actually a little bit tougher. I 1499 02:23:24,559 --> 02:23:26,799 don't think that, you know, someone could give a coaching to answer very 1500 02:23:26,840 --> 02:23:31,920 quickly on that. Presumably. I mean, I guess the Father just created 1501 02:23:31,000 --> 02:23:35,360 him as as male in the same way that you know he directly creates Adam 1502 02:23:35,399 --> 02:23:43,600 as male without you know, a prior male father. I mean, I 1503 02:23:43,600 --> 02:23:48,600 would I'd be clined to think that because of the fact that by the time 1504 02:23:48,639 --> 02:23:56,920 of John Damascus there's a dispute about the nature of christ humanity. It's I 1505 02:23:56,959 --> 02:24:01,959 think his name is Julian of Hollocarnassis, and there's this idea that the humanity 1506 02:24:01,959 --> 02:24:09,920 of Christ is like super divine and never human. Anyway, the response to 1507 02:24:09,959 --> 02:24:13,200 some of that is that Christ is the new Atom, and so he actually 1508 02:24:13,200 --> 02:24:18,399 has the same humanity that Adam has in the garden. So it's pre fallen, 1509 02:24:20,000 --> 02:24:22,600 it's a not a fallen humanity, and that would suggest that it's essentially 1510 02:24:22,600 --> 02:24:26,799 the same type of humanity that Adam had, which was a direct male creation, 1511 02:24:28,120 --> 02:24:33,360 would be my guess. I think that's a really good answer. Yeah, 1512 02:24:33,600 --> 02:24:37,040 if you have another moment, just one more quick question. Sure. 1513 02:24:39,040 --> 02:24:43,200 I was engaging with a few guys from the LCMS a few days ago, 1514 02:24:43,799 --> 02:24:48,799 and it's interesting there. I feel like, especially Lutheranism has been losing some 1515 02:24:48,879 --> 02:24:56,760 of their members, particularly towards Orthodoxy. I think there's some parallels that can 1516 02:24:56,799 --> 02:25:00,719 be drawn, but what they keep pointing to is that they're the early Church 1517 02:25:00,920 --> 02:25:05,479 that Orthodoxy does not have a closed canon. We never had any binding canon, 1518 02:25:07,200 --> 02:25:11,920 and that they are the only how do I say, denomination that also 1519 02:25:11,040 --> 02:25:18,559 does not have a closed cannon? And when you bring up well Hippo Carthage, 1520 02:25:20,399 --> 02:25:22,879 they'll say, oh, none of those were binding because those weren't in 1521 02:25:22,920 --> 02:25:26,719 the ecumenical councils. Right, Well, why are we supposed to accept that 1522 02:25:26,840 --> 02:25:31,319 Lutheran about ecumenical councils. Oh no, I agree with you completely. It's 1523 02:25:31,360 --> 02:25:35,079 it's very much picking and choosing. But it's like you're trying to nail jello 1524 02:25:35,200 --> 02:25:39,159 to the wall, you know what I mean. They bring the argument and 1525 02:25:39,200 --> 02:25:41,360 you're like, well, hold on, no, no, we do have 1526 02:25:41,520 --> 02:25:48,280 local synods and councils that are universally accepted. That's how the church worked with 1527 02:25:48,440 --> 02:25:52,159 number one. Right. You can't just say, okay, I picked one 1528 02:25:52,200 --> 02:25:54,159 to seven. We're not really so much sure on it. Where do we 1529 02:25:54,200 --> 02:25:58,920 go from here? It's like, well, we start with different presuppositions. 1530 02:25:58,040 --> 02:26:03,799 Yeah, but I think it's probably their best argument if they want to stem 1531 02:26:03,920 --> 02:26:05,760 the bleeding. Well, I just I mean, I would I would contend 1532 02:26:05,799 --> 02:26:09,479 that, you know, I mean, as a Lutheran, at least a 1533 02:26:09,479 --> 02:26:15,319 classical Lutheran has to say something like, you know, sola fide is the 1534 02:26:15,360 --> 02:26:20,440 gospel, right, So where is there a solo fide in the first three 1535 02:26:20,520 --> 02:26:22,920 fourth centuries of the church. If you're going to argue that the first three 1536 02:26:22,959 --> 02:26:26,360 fourth century of the church is like a pro to Lutheran church, Okay, 1537 02:26:26,399 --> 02:26:30,280 where is sola fide and where sol scripture? But I mean, didn't James 1538 02:26:30,319 --> 02:26:33,719 White already concede to Trent Horne that they weren't operating on sola scripture in the 1539 02:26:33,719 --> 02:26:39,040 first three centuries. Yeah, I even looked into it from their end, 1540 02:26:39,079 --> 02:26:43,840 And they start talking about things that you know, within Orthodoxy is relatively unknown, 1541 02:26:43,920 --> 02:26:48,840 you know, condying merits and the real discussion that was between Augustine and 1542 02:26:48,879 --> 02:26:52,959 Pelagius. Say, but none of that is sola fide though, that's not 1543 02:26:52,120 --> 02:26:56,040 justification about faith alone. Well, they start with that and then they grow 1544 02:26:56,079 --> 02:27:00,120 it out too. Well, of course, you know, congruent merit is 1545 02:27:00,239 --> 02:27:03,559 nothing right, It all has to be condine and then that means it is 1546 02:27:03,639 --> 02:27:07,639 really grace alone because you can't perform a condying merit. Yeah, but that's 1547 02:27:07,680 --> 02:27:11,079 not even like it's not even a question of merit. Justification by faith alone 1548 02:27:11,280 --> 02:27:18,120 is a nominalist idea that you can through notional faith or whatever kind of faith 1549 02:27:18,159 --> 02:27:24,920 you want to call it be put into a legal dispositional status in front of 1550 02:27:24,959 --> 02:27:30,200 God. Where is that in the first four centuries Nowhere? I don't even 1551 02:27:30,239 --> 02:27:31,920 know if Luther could give a good answer, even with you, when you 1552 02:27:33,000 --> 02:27:35,520 read his disputations with Joha and that condescend Yeah, I've read that. I've 1553 02:27:35,559 --> 02:27:39,479 read that debate. Yeah, yeah, not exactly a great answer. But 1554 02:27:39,559 --> 02:27:43,639 again, you know you're gonna well, so well, that's my point though, 1555 02:27:43,639 --> 02:27:46,079 it is like, so, wait a minute, if sola fide in 1556 02:27:46,159 --> 02:27:50,319 that imputational dispositional legal sense is not there, and if sol scriptura is not 1557 02:27:50,360 --> 02:27:54,000 there in the first four centuries, how is this first four centuries church in 1558 02:27:54,040 --> 02:28:00,799 any way quote proto Lutheran. It's not you said, That's what I thought 1559 02:28:00,799 --> 02:28:03,959 you said. That was what their argument was. Their argument is that, 1560 02:28:03,040 --> 02:28:07,000 I mean, that hasn't changed what they try to I think I'm just saying 1561 02:28:07,000 --> 02:28:11,000 that that's I'm saying that, that's what my argument. My question would be 1562 02:28:11,040 --> 02:28:13,360 to somebody who says that, somebody says, hey, the you know, 1563 02:28:13,479 --> 02:28:16,399 first fourth century church was basically Lutheran, I'd be like, Okay, where's 1564 02:28:16,399 --> 02:28:20,440 solid and where's the social feue. I would say, if you very selectively 1565 02:28:20,520 --> 02:28:24,399 take certain quotes from the fathers, I think you can sort of make it 1566 02:28:24,440 --> 02:28:31,040 happen, especially if you really focus on Augustine and Ambrose. But from an 1567 02:28:31,079 --> 02:28:35,559 academic standpoint, they are proto august I mean, sorry, okay, but 1568 02:28:35,600 --> 02:28:39,319 again, Augustinians, I understand that. I understand that you can be believe 1569 02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:43,600 in badgel, regeneration and grace alone and be Augustinian. None of that is 1570 02:28:43,799 --> 02:28:50,639 justification by faith alone. And that's the Lutheran lynchpin of the church right right, 1571 02:28:50,000 --> 02:28:54,879 or as he said, that's what the church stands correct. Yeah, 1572 02:28:56,760 --> 02:29:01,680 yeah, yeah, great question. Yeah, appreciate it. I really appreciate 1573 02:29:01,680 --> 02:29:05,159 it. Thank you. WHOA, Suddenly we got eleven people. Where all 1574 02:29:05,159 --> 02:29:09,079 these people come from wanting to get into it? Now? We had like 1575 02:29:09,120 --> 02:29:11,239 two people for like an hour, and now there's eleven people. Dan, 1576 02:29:11,319 --> 02:29:20,040 what's up, Dan, I'm trying to get through these quick. He can 1577 02:29:20,079 --> 02:29:26,200 hear me, sir. I was having a conversation with a z I'm kind 1578 02:29:26,200 --> 02:29:28,959 of cumuen right now. But I was having a conversation with a longtime buddy. 1579 02:29:28,959 --> 02:29:33,879 He's a Protestant, and I guess I'm looking for resources, I guess, 1580 02:29:33,879 --> 02:29:39,479 but I'll just kind of tell you where this was going. But so 1581 02:29:39,639 --> 02:29:41,959 obviously his view is, you know, it doesn't really matter which church you're 1582 02:29:43,040 --> 02:29:46,239 part of as long as you believe in you know, Christ, you know, 1583 02:29:46,559 --> 02:29:48,879 saving work, et cetera. I mean, just you know, the 1584 02:29:48,920 --> 02:29:54,239 general mere Christianity. Well, I mean, what does that mean to what 1585 02:29:54,319 --> 02:29:58,399 Christ? Like the Mormon Christ, Joe's Witness Christ. So if he's not 1586 02:29:58,440 --> 02:30:01,920 a Mormon or Joe's Witness, then he's national just kind of typical process. 1587 02:30:01,079 --> 02:30:05,520 Yeah, but I'm saying, like, you start asking those kinds of questions, 1588 02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:07,200 and he's going to start saying, well, I mean you have to 1589 02:30:07,200 --> 02:30:09,840 be believing the deed of Christ and Trinity. And it's like, well, 1590 02:30:09,840 --> 02:30:13,000 wait a minute, how do we know those are the two? Is that? 1591 02:30:13,120 --> 02:30:16,079 Is that all? It is? Like, cannot be a pollinarian. 1592 02:30:16,239 --> 02:30:20,200 But I mean, so you say that it doesn't work to just say like 1593 02:30:20,319 --> 02:30:24,760 lowest commonness, I would start questioning the lowest common nominator stuff. And yeah, 1594 02:30:24,200 --> 02:30:28,680 yeah, so my question or I mean, what the question that I 1595 02:30:28,760 --> 02:30:33,120 came out of that with because obviously now that I'm joining the Orthodox Church because 1596 02:30:33,159 --> 02:30:37,879 I believe it is you know, the one church church, and so you 1597 02:30:37,920 --> 02:30:41,040 have Christ the head and you have the body of Christ, right, and 1598 02:30:41,120 --> 02:30:45,840 so would you I mean, is woul the Orthodox Church say that the Orthodox 1599 02:30:45,920 --> 02:30:50,719 Church is the body of Christ? Like? Okay? So, and then 1600 02:30:50,959 --> 02:30:58,959 if I reject the body, is that I mean, is that the same 1601 02:30:58,000 --> 02:31:01,600 as rejecting the head? Like? Are those two things? Yeah? I 1602 02:31:01,600 --> 02:31:03,879 mean, how can you be in the body if you don't want the body 1603 02:31:03,879 --> 02:31:07,879 of the head. So that was the answer. But so so then my 1604 02:31:07,000 --> 02:31:11,000 question, I mean we say it every day in the creed or every basically 1605 02:31:11,239 --> 02:31:16,840 one holy calogi charge. Yeah, is there any do you have any resources 1606 02:31:16,840 --> 02:31:22,840 for like or any fathers that talk about the relationship between or like the myscal 1607 02:31:24,040 --> 02:31:26,600 union of the body and the head, or or is there anyone that sticks 1608 02:31:26,600 --> 02:31:28,959 out to you? Well? I mean, you know, if you were 1609 02:31:30,000 --> 02:31:33,639 to read Palmazansky's book on Orthodox dogmatics, like when he talks about Christology and 1610 02:31:33,680 --> 02:31:37,120 the doctrine of the Church, you'll notice they go together. So you can't 1611 02:31:37,120 --> 02:31:43,559 have ecclesiology separated from your Christology, because the way that we do Christology defines 1612 02:31:43,799 --> 02:31:48,600 and basically gives us our sacramatology and our ecclesiology. They go together, they're 1613 02:31:48,639 --> 02:31:54,079 all hinging on Christology. So I would try to get your buddy into understanding 1614 02:31:54,079 --> 02:31:58,600 correct Christology first, and that will kind of logically lead to correct sacramatology and 1615 02:32:00,040 --> 02:32:07,479 theology. Okay, thank you, Yeah, great questions. So we've got 1616 02:32:07,479 --> 02:32:13,360 a whole bunch of people I would ask that. I mean, it's not 1617 02:32:13,399 --> 02:32:20,479 a huge deal, but tonight's topic is church state. So and I'm not 1618 02:32:20,520 --> 02:32:24,639 mad at the guy that asked the question about before it's falling out, I 1619 02:32:24,680 --> 02:32:28,079 don't care. But if you have a church state question, because that's the 1620 02:32:28,159 --> 02:32:31,840 topic tonight, that's really what I'd like to focus on. Ginghis Khan, 1621 02:32:31,920 --> 02:33:05,719 what's up? You gotta unmute man? You hey, so do you think 1622 02:33:05,799 --> 02:33:11,120 Chris is king? Yeah? Sure, that's what we're talking about tonight. 1623 02:33:11,799 --> 02:33:18,319 H Yeah, he's the king, Okay, just like me. Okay, 1624 02:33:18,440 --> 02:33:26,440 what does that mean? Jasn is Okay, that's that's super funny. Dude. 1625 02:33:28,920 --> 02:33:31,520 My hole myself back from from laughing that it was so funny. Etro, 1626 02:33:31,559 --> 02:33:39,520 what's up dude? E t R? What's up? You gotta unmute 1627 02:33:39,520 --> 02:33:46,040 man? Many good, big fan. And yeah, I'm I'm thinking about 1628 02:33:46,040 --> 02:33:52,079 like converning but like orthodoxy. But one thing that's like kind of confusing to 1629 02:33:52,079 --> 02:33:56,000 me, is like are you are people outside of the church Orthodox Church, 1630 02:33:56,079 --> 02:34:00,360 Like are they can they still be saved? We don't make determinations on their 1631 02:34:00,399 --> 02:34:03,280 eternal status. All we're told is that we have to tell them to become 1632 02:34:03,399 --> 02:34:07,000 Orthodox. So if God has a way that he can join people to the 1633 02:34:07,040 --> 02:34:09,200 mystical body of the Orthodox Church, God can do that. He did that 1634 02:34:09,239 --> 02:34:15,079 with let thief on the cross, So I can't judge that. But what 1635 02:34:15,159 --> 02:34:18,719 I am told to do is to tell people who become Orthodox. Okay, 1636 02:34:18,760 --> 02:34:24,520 so like people outside of the Orthodox Church, like are they going to Hell 1637 02:34:24,719 --> 02:34:28,040 or like network? I mean, I'm not trying to be mean. It's 1638 02:34:28,079 --> 02:34:33,799 like I just that's exactly what I just answered. So what's up, Drew? 1639 02:34:52,760 --> 02:35:00,520 You got unmute man? Oh yeah, oh yes, sir, Google. 1640 02:35:01,079 --> 02:35:03,319 Yeah. I was just this is this is this is somewhat not really 1641 02:35:03,319 --> 02:35:09,440 as related per se, But you kind of got me into like like learning 1642 02:35:09,440 --> 02:35:11,959 more about like like the I guess you said the flaws of natural theology anyway, 1643 02:35:13,040 --> 02:35:16,600 And I was reading through John chapter one, verse three, and I 1644 02:35:16,760 --> 02:35:20,959 noticed that like because when he says, when John says all things were made 1645 02:35:20,000 --> 02:35:24,479 through him and without him, nothing was made that was made? Isn't that 1646 02:35:24,840 --> 02:35:28,799 kind of like a sort of attag like like a like a trensidental claim sort 1647 02:35:28,799 --> 02:35:35,360 of see at least ware he's saying like a like God essentially is like the 1648 02:35:35,399 --> 02:35:39,319 ground of like all reality. I think, so, I mean I've made 1649 02:35:39,319 --> 02:35:43,000 that, I've argued. I've argued that if you follow through the logic of 1650 02:35:43,079 --> 02:35:48,239 John one, then creation itself is crystal centric. So yeah, exactly. 1651 02:35:48,920 --> 02:35:52,479 Yeah, That's just something that I was kind of like like noticing in a 1652 02:35:52,520 --> 02:35:54,959 way at least, and like that that got me to asking questions about like 1653 02:35:56,000 --> 02:35:58,319 the previous diness you were haven't with like trent On as well, when you're 1654 02:35:58,360 --> 02:36:03,719 exactly where where you said at the faithful Jews who lived before Christ in coronation 1655 02:36:03,879 --> 02:36:07,120 worship good at least And it's like that the like isn't that kind of like 1656 02:36:07,520 --> 02:36:11,440 because I answer this question as will like, isn't that kind of like have 1657 02:36:11,600 --> 02:36:16,840 like some kind of like perennial disconclusions in a way? I think? So, 1658 02:36:16,040 --> 02:36:20,879 Yeah, I mean I argued that if you were consistent with your natural 1659 02:36:20,920 --> 02:36:24,799 theology, there's no reason why it couldn't lead you to perennialism. In fact, 1660 02:36:24,840 --> 02:36:28,559 if you read the Garibie paper that we covered in the in the last 1661 02:36:28,760 --> 02:36:33,479 trent Horne response stream, the Garibie paper argues at the beginning, citing John 1662 02:36:33,559 --> 02:36:37,479 Hick, John Hick, if I recall, I'm going for a memory, 1663 02:36:37,600 --> 02:36:41,239 John Hick was responding to Richard Swinburn, and he says, there's no reason 1664 02:36:41,280 --> 02:36:46,520 to think that the natural theology basic attributes would necessarily lead you to Christianity. 1665 02:36:46,680 --> 02:36:52,120 Why cann't it leads you to perennialism if you're arguing that it's a lowest common 1666 02:36:52,120 --> 02:36:56,239 denominator or list of attributes anyway? Yeah, plus like Jesus himself even like 1667 02:36:56,280 --> 02:37:01,399 because what was the Jews themselves even like for like saying that they believe in 1668 02:37:01,440 --> 02:37:05,360 one God being the Father and then Christ hilf exactly. Yeah. So like 1669 02:37:05,920 --> 02:37:09,520 isn't it kind of like like refuting Transon? Absolutely? Yeah? If you 1670 02:37:09,559 --> 02:37:13,000 read this paper right here, Uh, the best response to all the Trent 1671 02:37:13,280 --> 02:37:20,520 uh sort of natural theology stuff is this paper right here by doctor Garribee called 1672 02:37:20,920 --> 02:37:22,760 Theistic Fallacies. I highly recommend it. We've you know, we covered it 1673 02:37:22,799 --> 02:37:26,159 from many years to people in the chat. If you want to hear the 1674 02:37:26,200 --> 02:37:31,639 link to read that and it kind of goes through the many fallacies involved in 1675 02:37:31,719 --> 02:37:33,520 natural theologies, not just one, but there's common ones that pop up, 1676 02:37:33,600 --> 02:37:45,840 like quantifier shift fallacy. So yeah, yeah, good questions. Paul Ruddell, 1677 02:37:45,920 --> 02:37:58,440 what's up? Man? Got an unmute broy Sorry about that? So 1678 02:37:58,520 --> 02:38:05,360 good. I must have been just a little bit behind. Well, first 1679 02:38:05,399 --> 02:38:07,760 of all, thank you very much for for hosting this, and I really 1680 02:38:07,879 --> 02:38:13,159 like here, thank you. We're almost out one thousand. I'm like right 1681 02:38:13,280 --> 02:38:20,040 below hitting a thousand lives ahead. My question is you're cutting out dog, 1682 02:38:20,159 --> 02:38:26,760 go ahead, okay, So my my my question is, okay, my 1683 02:38:26,959 --> 02:38:35,000 question is could we uh, could we say that that we could base our 1684 02:38:37,440 --> 02:38:41,639 our well, you know, first of all at Christ is king and that 1685 02:38:43,799 --> 02:38:50,040 two as as as orthodox now that we acknowledge that, and that he's king 1686 02:38:50,040 --> 02:38:58,079 and lord overall creation, that that having a godly monarchy would simply be an 1687 02:38:58,120 --> 02:39:03,920 acknowledgment of this reality, that that Christ is Christ is indeed king, and 1688 02:39:03,959 --> 02:39:11,120 that anything less than that would be kind of an unfortunate aberration from what should 1689 02:39:11,239 --> 02:39:15,840 or ought to be. Yeah, I would I would agree with that because 1690 02:39:15,879 --> 02:39:20,280 the idea of the monarch in like Byzantium, is that he's an icon of 1691 02:39:20,440 --> 02:39:24,079 God. He's an icon of the rulership. You know, they often used 1692 02:39:24,120 --> 02:39:28,840 imagery of David for the visinitsing Emperor. So he's kind of a dividic type 1693 02:39:28,840 --> 02:39:31,639 of king. He doesn't have the functions of a priest, but he has 1694 02:39:31,680 --> 02:39:37,399 the functions of God in terms of a dispenser of justice. So I think, 1695 02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:41,239 So, I mean, to me, that's obvious. Like I mean, 1696 02:39:41,239 --> 02:39:43,520 I'm not saying that to you. I'm not saying that to you to 1697 02:39:43,559 --> 02:39:46,719 be a smart ass. I'm saying, like, it's obvious in the history 1698 02:39:46,719 --> 02:39:52,719 of Orthodox theology and you know church history and the councils that that's that's how 1699 02:39:52,799 --> 02:39:58,520 obviously how they viewed it. So right, no, no, no following 1700 02:39:58,559 --> 02:40:05,719 that, couldn't we also, uh, can we also say that, I 1701 02:40:05,719 --> 02:40:13,079 mean, isn't this kind of like this the to to acknowledge that reality is 1702 02:40:13,120 --> 02:40:18,799 a you know, obviously it's an important part of our faith and it's a 1703 02:40:18,920 --> 02:40:22,600 you know, we could say, like a self bific belief if you will. 1704 02:40:22,639 --> 02:40:26,280 If I don't know, maybe beliefs aren't selfific in that way, but 1705 02:40:26,120 --> 02:40:43,120 if you, uh, but it is. Couldn't we say that that this 1706 02:40:43,120 --> 02:40:48,280 this could save us or prevent us from from from from the defilement or the 1707 02:40:48,360 --> 02:40:56,879 mire of modern day Paul politics, to to to realize that, you know, 1708 02:40:58,040 --> 02:41:01,639 Christ is the ultimate authority and the the in the whole universe, and 1709 02:41:01,680 --> 02:41:05,319 that everything that we might involve is going is going to be, you know, 1710 02:41:05,559 --> 02:41:11,639 fairly probable matter. I can so to what extent can we or should 1711 02:41:11,680 --> 02:41:16,479 we even involve ourselves in that? And also as a as as a component 1712 02:41:16,479 --> 02:41:26,440 of that question, can we can can we bring some godly influence to bear 1713 02:41:26,520 --> 02:41:28,799 in the existing government? And this is a bit of a follow up question 1714 02:41:28,040 --> 02:41:35,280 to a to a previous speaker, but I mean, at what point are 1715 02:41:35,319 --> 02:41:41,719 we able to cross the rubicon two to bring a godly influence to bear in 1716 02:41:41,799 --> 02:41:45,680 government? If you're saying that it's not our place to do so, or 1717 02:41:45,680 --> 02:41:48,200 we don't want to do that by force, which is understandable because we believe 1718 02:41:48,200 --> 02:41:52,920 in free will. No, i'd said at the beginning. Maybe you didn't 1719 02:41:52,920 --> 02:41:56,440 hear the it didn't hear the very beginning, but I said that. I 1720 02:41:56,440 --> 02:42:01,840 mean, I don't think there's anything wrong with Christians taking action to do things 1721 02:42:01,840 --> 02:42:05,799 in politics. It's not what I'm interested in, but I don't think there's 1722 02:42:05,799 --> 02:42:11,040 anything wrong with people doing it. I support people doing it that's there, 1723 02:42:11,040 --> 02:42:13,799 like their providential situation where that's what you know they're led to do. They 1724 02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:18,120 should absolutely and I just said that they would probably be more effective on a 1725 02:42:18,159 --> 02:42:24,280 local level than like national politics. So so you know, I'm all for 1726 02:42:24,920 --> 02:42:26,840 you know, I mean, there should be people, We should be people 1727 02:42:26,879 --> 02:42:30,879 having people in all of the areas, Like we should be feeling the arts, 1728 02:42:30,920 --> 02:42:33,319 we should be feeling media, we should be feeling you know, because 1729 02:42:33,559 --> 02:42:39,680 if you're not entering monastic life, then it doesn't make sense to pretend you're 1730 02:42:39,719 --> 02:42:45,040 a monk. So a lot of people in the Orthodox world want to pretend 1731 02:42:45,159 --> 02:42:48,239 like they're you know, pseudo monks or they're uh, you know, they're 1732 02:42:48,239 --> 02:42:52,680 gonna have a family and they're going to be, you know, working in 1733 02:42:52,719 --> 02:42:54,959 a factory. But to think they're monks, and it's like, you're not 1734 02:42:56,040 --> 02:42:58,239 a monk, you're not called to that life. And if you're going to 1735 02:42:58,280 --> 02:43:00,719 be married, you're going to be in the world and you're gonna have to 1736 02:43:00,760 --> 02:43:03,239 have a job, you're gonna have to work with finances, you're gonna have 1737 02:43:03,280 --> 02:43:07,360 to understand how the world works. And so a lot of people nothing about 1738 02:43:07,360 --> 02:43:11,719 you. But a lot of people use pseudo monasticism and pretending to be a 1739 02:43:11,760 --> 02:43:15,799 monk as a cloak for their own laziness and their own sloth. And I 1740 02:43:15,840 --> 02:43:18,200 think that's silly. So you got to grow out of that, be more 1741 02:43:18,200 --> 02:43:22,920 mature than that. But not everybody has a call to want to be in 1742 02:43:22,959 --> 02:43:30,120 public life or to want to be in politics. Michael Cisco really has that 1743 02:43:30,239 --> 02:43:31,719 desire. He wants to do it. I'm not his spiritual father, but 1744 02:43:33,200 --> 02:43:35,360 you know, I told Michael, like, yeah, that's great if you 1745 02:43:35,399 --> 02:43:41,000 want to if that's your calling, if you feel that desire, you know, 1746 02:43:41,040 --> 02:43:43,879 it'd be like, hey, I'm a filmmaker, I want to be 1747 02:43:43,920 --> 02:43:46,959 an I want to be in making films and be Orthodox. Oh I can't 1748 02:43:46,959 --> 02:43:50,360 do that. That's the world. That's worldly. No, that's crazy. 1749 02:43:50,920 --> 02:43:54,120 I mean that's the very mindset that I think is the Protestant idea, Like 1750 02:43:54,760 --> 02:43:58,600 the monk is the person who decided to renounce the world, okay, and 1751 02:43:58,680 --> 02:44:03,159 for lay people to pretend like they're monks and act like, well, I'm 1752 02:44:03,200 --> 02:44:05,639 too. The playoffs for everything and I will never be involved myself into anything. 1753 02:44:05,719 --> 02:44:09,159 It's like to me, a lot of that's just being slimy in my 1754 02:44:09,200 --> 02:44:13,159 opinion. So no, I mean I think, I mean if you don't, 1755 02:44:13,559 --> 02:44:18,319 if we don't do this, then we're gonna be ruled over by degenerates. 1756 02:44:18,360 --> 02:44:22,360 So do you want to be ruled by degenerates or do you want to 1757 02:44:22,399 --> 02:44:26,760 act, you know, in society in a virtuous way. It's like, 1758 02:44:28,040 --> 02:44:35,959 you know anyway, that's my take. Appreciate those questions, Paul, you're 1759 02:44:35,000 --> 02:44:41,040 kind of cutting out, not trying to be rude. But so let's move 1760 02:44:41,079 --> 02:44:43,440 through these quick. I'm gonna I wanna try to get to the last few 1761 02:44:43,479 --> 02:44:48,040 people here in this on this topic. But I do have to remind you, 1762 02:44:48,040 --> 02:44:50,280 guys, if we do have a show sponsor, we got some more 1763 02:44:50,280 --> 02:44:54,239 super chests I need to get to. But look, guys, uh, 1764 02:44:54,200 --> 02:44:58,600 I gotta tell you this. You have to hear this. I'm gonna put 1765 02:44:58,639 --> 02:45:03,799 you on something crazy real quick. Most of these zuomer Jim Brooks assuming macro 1766 02:45:03,879 --> 02:45:09,000 guzzling synthetic dyes and synthetic sweeteners on the daily. They don't even know it. 1767 02:45:09,200 --> 02:45:13,040 Goofy af. There's nothing great about that. 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Each dose of chad Mode contains the kick of a cup 1782 02:46:22,239 --> 02:46:28,159 and a half of coffee, delivering a surge of energy alongside essential vitamins, 1783 02:46:28,200 --> 02:46:33,040 minerals, amino acids, and herbal extracts. Chad mode will allow you to 1784 02:46:33,120 --> 02:46:37,079 fire your boss and dominate anyone who opposes you. Chad mode will make you 1785 02:46:37,159 --> 02:49:43,040 more dominant in your daily life. So proceed with caution. M pass if 1786 02:49:43,079 --> 02:49:50,040 do you consider these Seven day Adventists to be a cult? Mm hmm. 1787 02:49:52,680 --> 02:49:58,200 They're kind of on a They're kind of on a thin line there. I 1788 02:49:58,399 --> 02:50:00,559 don't know if i'd go so far as to say a cold, but like 1789 02:50:01,120 --> 02:50:05,040 kind of on the edge of it, so I'd say an evidence are almost 1790 02:50:05,079 --> 02:50:11,920 culled pretty close. They definitely spawned cults like Joe's Witnesses. So one more 1791 02:50:11,040 --> 02:50:16,000 question. I had also into a family member and their Seven Day Adventus and 1792 02:50:16,040 --> 02:50:20,280 we were talking about, uh, like like, how does the Bible prove 1793 02:50:20,280 --> 02:50:24,200 that it's the word of God? And I was referring to you would have 1794 02:50:24,280 --> 02:50:26,879 to extrapolate thats or you have to use you have to use something other than 1795 02:50:26,879 --> 02:50:31,399 the Bible to prove that, and they kept saying that the Bible does it 1796 02:50:31,559 --> 02:50:33,280 need to because it's a world of like it's like a circular argument, and 1797 02:50:33,280 --> 02:50:37,479 they said it's the only thing that you could use a circular argument for that 1798 02:50:37,639 --> 02:50:41,719 is there something I could get around this, like logic, I just I 1799 02:50:41,719 --> 02:50:43,760 don't know how to fight like they just keep they just keep screaming that I'd 1800 02:50:43,799 --> 02:50:50,719 be able to say to that. I mean, if maybe they're confused about 1801 02:50:50,760 --> 02:50:56,280 the idea that the transcendental argument is a type of circularity. But the point 1802 02:50:56,280 --> 02:51:01,399 of that is to say that everybody's argument at a super fundament until level is 1803 02:51:01,440 --> 02:51:03,520 going to ultimately be circular because there's going to be a certain point where you 1804 02:51:03,559 --> 02:51:07,520 can't appeal to something else to justify that thing. And so that's what we 1805 02:51:07,600 --> 02:51:13,319 mean by grounding it out or or it becoming quote circular. It's not saying 1806 02:51:13,360 --> 02:51:18,920 that you can now make circular arguments at any point, because in terms of 1807 02:51:18,319 --> 02:51:24,760 first order argumentation sort of normal argumentation, circular arguments are fallacy. But that's 1808 02:51:24,799 --> 02:51:28,559 a different category error to think that all things are proven are known in the 1809 02:51:28,600 --> 02:51:35,440 same way. So, but I mean there's a lot of there's a lot 1810 02:51:35,479 --> 02:51:39,879 of different ways that that conversation might go. I mean, I think the 1811 02:51:39,879 --> 02:51:46,760 best evidence for inspiration is the fulfilled messianic prophecies, So that's an evidence, 1812 02:51:46,239 --> 02:51:52,479 and evidences can function as types of arguments or proofs. I think the ultimate 1813 02:51:52,520 --> 02:51:54,200 strongest proof is a transient argument for God. But that doesn't mean that we're 1814 02:51:54,200 --> 02:51:58,280 like opposed to evidences. Now you have to use evidences for sure. So 1815 02:52:01,319 --> 02:52:05,760 for the people in the chat that missed the super chat question, the first 1816 02:52:05,840 --> 02:52:13,159 question was about Mary and orthodox view versus romccalthy view, and Mary and I 1817 02:52:13,159 --> 02:52:18,520 said, we don't leave in ecconception. I'm sending this from three thousand feet 1818 02:52:18,520 --> 02:52:20,559 in the air using Delta wi FI. Well, thank you, mister Anderson. 1819 02:52:20,559 --> 02:52:26,559 I appreciate that certainly. Three twenty four asked me, is Michael Saylor 1820 02:52:26,559 --> 02:52:30,680 correct about bitcoin being decentralized? I said yes. He said, is this 1821 02:52:30,799 --> 02:52:33,399 enough to prevent the elites from a global control agenda? I said, I 1822 02:52:33,440 --> 02:52:39,239 don't think bitcoin is alone enough to save us from global les trying to bring 1823 02:52:39,280 --> 02:52:46,719 about n WO. But it's definitely a big key thing for our side. 1824 02:52:46,959 --> 02:52:50,120 But you know, life is much more than just economics, right, But 1825 02:52:50,159 --> 02:52:54,239 that's a big economic plus for us. But I mean, you know, 1826 02:52:54,319 --> 02:53:01,280 life has education, life has media, entertainment. I mean, so life 1827 02:53:01,319 --> 02:53:05,159 isn't just economics. I don't think that bigcoin alone is enough to beat the 1828 02:53:05,200 --> 02:53:09,559 New World order, because the new World order is not purely and solely economic. 1829 02:53:09,639 --> 02:53:13,639 It's also spiritual, it's also mental, it's it's a lot of different 1830 02:53:13,680 --> 02:53:16,840 things. It's a full spectrum dominance approach. How does bitcoin fit into the 1831 02:53:16,840 --> 02:53:20,520 Biblical end times? I have no idea. And then I said BMX ninety 1832 02:53:20,559 --> 02:53:22,719 sixty six ten bucks, thank you so much. So that was where the 1833 02:53:22,719 --> 02:53:26,799 super chat said. When I came back, it was still muted. So 1834 02:53:28,000 --> 02:53:31,440 that selah, what's up, Let's move through these if we can to get 1835 02:53:31,440 --> 02:53:46,760 everybody on. You got a mute? Oh so sorry, Yeah, what's 1836 02:53:46,799 --> 02:53:52,760 up? Uh? Yeah? I had a question about the Trinity and the 1837 02:53:52,760 --> 02:53:56,799 Gold's attorney, and then I had a question. I had a debate with 1838 02:53:56,840 --> 02:54:00,479 a Muslim the other day and he told me it doesn't make sense in the 1839 02:54:00,600 --> 02:54:03,600 Orthodox you that only the father of the saiety. Could you expand on that? 1840 02:54:05,680 --> 02:54:09,120 Yeah, I would say the best answer to this question you should watch 1841 02:54:09,360 --> 02:54:16,319 the bo brantson Jake the Muslim metaphysician debate, because they have an entire debate 1842 02:54:16,399 --> 02:54:20,639 about this question. And the point is that because one member of a class 1843 02:54:20,680 --> 02:54:26,079 possesses an attribute, it doesn't follow that every member of the class must possess 1844 02:54:26,120 --> 02:54:30,360 that attribute to be in that class, so divinity is not reduced to a 1845 02:54:30,399 --> 02:54:35,079 sayity is the point? Okay? And also he made another point about the 1846 02:54:35,280 --> 02:54:41,280 illegitimate canonization of saints in the Orthodox Church, like, would you accept, 1847 02:54:41,360 --> 02:54:45,680 for example, the canonization of like say, the Russian Stars or like Nicholas 1848 02:54:45,680 --> 02:54:50,879 the Second or what's what's the rvvie them meant to be? I mean, 1849 02:54:50,440 --> 02:54:52,440 as far as I know, I would like, why would that be a 1850 02:54:52,520 --> 02:54:56,799 legitimate What do you mean? I haven't heard of the illegitimacy argument. I 1851 02:54:56,799 --> 02:55:00,120 don't know about what is this? Well, he was mostly speaking from from 1852 02:55:00,120 --> 02:55:03,879 an ethical perspective, but it doesn't really make sense to canonize someone like Nicholas 1853 02:55:03,879 --> 02:55:05,799 the Second. But I don't really I don't really know how to respond to. 1854 02:55:07,000 --> 02:55:11,760 Well. My understanding is that typically the Orthodox view of saints and canonization 1855 02:55:11,959 --> 02:55:16,159 is not did they live their entire life with the highest level of moral purity? 1856 02:55:16,760 --> 02:55:22,639 It's what types of actions did they do that might have led to a 1857 02:55:24,079 --> 02:55:28,559 supremely virtuous action such as martyrdom. So the thief on the cross did not 1858 02:55:28,639 --> 02:55:33,280 live a life of the highest virtue, but he did repent towards the end 1859 02:55:33,280 --> 02:55:37,559 of his life and so he's a saint. So I think Samson was a 1860 02:55:37,559 --> 02:55:43,799 saint. It's odd to me when I hear Orthodox priests famous ones argue that 1861 02:55:43,799 --> 02:55:46,639 Samson isn't a saint. I mean, he's a type of Christ. He 1862 02:55:46,760 --> 02:55:48,520 obviously was repenting at the end of his life. He's an image of Christ 1863 02:55:50,360 --> 02:55:56,479 pulling down the gates of Hades with the Temple of Philistine. So I don't 1864 02:55:56,520 --> 02:55:58,440 know. To me, it's odd that anybody would question whether Sampson is a 1865 02:55:58,440 --> 02:56:05,399 saint. But yeah, good questions. I'm not really familiar with why people 1866 02:56:05,440 --> 02:56:09,959 wouldn't think that the ours are saying. To me, that suggests like Western 1867 02:56:11,559 --> 02:56:16,360 people who don't like Russia would think that's probably what's going on. I'm guessing 1868 02:56:16,399 --> 02:56:18,760 I don't know, though. Joe Bama, what's up, Joe Bama? 1869 02:56:18,079 --> 02:56:22,920 Uh? There you Joe, We got Joe Bamba, my wife, Michael, 1870 02:56:22,840 --> 02:56:26,000 Hey, what's up? Jake? Can you hear me? All right? 1871 02:56:26,079 --> 02:56:30,399 Long time fan here, Thanks for letting me talk. Sure, this 1872 02:56:30,479 --> 02:56:35,360 is kind of an elaboration on what I think Paul was asking earlier. But 1873 02:56:35,079 --> 02:56:39,959 unless I like misheard what you were saying earlier, it made it sound like 1874 02:56:39,040 --> 02:56:46,360 you kind of oppose like top down evangelization of America. You know, whether 1875 02:56:46,440 --> 02:56:50,239 that's because it's not practical or because we you know, have free will to 1876 02:56:50,280 --> 02:56:54,079 turn the christ you a sort of bottom up with but basically I just don't 1877 02:56:54,079 --> 02:56:58,680 think it's realistic. So I mean, is it possible that, uh, 1878 02:57:00,239 --> 02:57:03,120 I don't know. Let's say Trump gets elected and then Trump gets interested in 1879 02:57:03,280 --> 02:57:07,319 orthodoxy, and then Trump trusts to make American orthodox I mean, I don't 1880 02:57:07,319 --> 02:57:09,879 think that would work, but is it possible. It's possible, it just 1881 02:57:09,879 --> 02:57:15,159 doesn't seem likely, right, Yeah, So that's a good point. I 1882 02:57:15,200 --> 02:57:18,440 guess My question is basically, like, you know, clearly we want to 1883 02:57:18,440 --> 02:57:22,680 live in a Christian society and we want our laws to reflect Christian ethics. 1884 02:57:22,959 --> 02:57:28,239 You know, even if the majority of the people in the country oppose what 1885 02:57:28,399 --> 02:57:31,440 you know, the Bible would say, you know, think abortion or something 1886 02:57:31,479 --> 02:57:35,559 like that. So my question is, like, how far can we, 1887 02:57:35,600 --> 02:57:39,520 you know, trust in a bottom up approach when it doesn't seem to like 1888 02:57:39,639 --> 02:57:43,399 be working very well well. I mean, if there is no other options, 1889 02:57:43,440 --> 02:57:46,719 like what are what are you supposed to do? Like, I mean, 1890 02:57:48,120 --> 02:57:52,319 when the appropriate time calls for it, then we have to accept martyrdom. 1891 02:57:52,360 --> 02:58:00,840 I mean that's that's the Christian approach. So, uh Benjamin, what's 1892 02:58:00,920 --> 02:58:03,319 up. I'm not trying to be ride. I'm trying to get through all 1893 02:58:03,399 --> 02:58:07,760 the people. There's like eight people in a row here, so trying to 1894 02:58:07,760 --> 02:58:16,280 move through. What's up, Benjamin? All right, Benjamin, can't connect, 1895 02:58:16,360 --> 02:58:22,239 so we'll move on to the next person. Are you there? Uh 1896 02:58:22,200 --> 02:58:26,840 yeah, what's up? Dude? Yeah, I'm a big fan, kind 1897 02:58:26,840 --> 02:58:35,319 of nervous Soka. Uh so, uh so trying what's your question? I'm 1898 02:58:35,319 --> 02:58:39,600 trying to move through some people, So what's your what's your what? I 1899 02:58:39,639 --> 02:58:45,600 wrote down three questions. So the first one is I remember watching through your 1900 02:58:46,319 --> 02:58:52,760 critiques of Jordan Peterson with you know, classical liberalism and at that time talking 1901 02:58:52,799 --> 02:58:58,159 about Christopher Langon. Oh yeah yeah, the High, the High IQ, 1902 02:58:58,000 --> 02:59:11,040 the Roadhouse, Bartender High IQ Brobo. So would that ever happen or there? 1903 02:59:11,040 --> 02:59:16,000 He's very precise about how an interview has to be conducted, and he 1904 02:59:16,319 --> 02:59:20,520 wants a lot of questions, and I just basically have free flowing conversations. 1905 02:59:20,559 --> 02:59:28,760 So I never really followed back up with I just like to have like imprompt 1906 02:59:28,799 --> 02:59:37,799 to improv conversations. So that's typically pretty much. And if you I guess 1907 02:59:37,799 --> 02:59:41,360 that the one would be. The second one would be, do you have 1908 02:59:41,399 --> 02:59:48,760 any books on like rhetoric or it's because you know, when people when I 1909 02:59:48,799 --> 02:59:52,879 mean, if I was going to talk to somebody and they, you know, 1910 02:59:52,959 --> 02:59:58,799 insulted me, it kind of short circuits my thinking. I can't really 1911 02:59:58,840 --> 03:00:01,280 get I can't really give a like a response to that. I think it's 1912 03:00:01,559 --> 03:00:03,920 I think it's kind of supposed to do that, right, And that's kind 1913 03:00:03,920 --> 03:00:09,239 of the point of an insult is to like get you all messed up and 1914 03:00:09,319 --> 03:00:11,600 confused and you know, not paying attention to the issue at hand. So 1915 03:00:11,639 --> 03:00:20,000 that's probably what it's meant to do. Yeah, but just like, Okay, 1916 03:00:20,159 --> 03:00:28,399 I guess if that's the solution, well go ahead, what's the the 1917 03:00:28,559 --> 03:00:31,479 one. I don't know a good book on ridd If you're asking, you 1918 03:00:31,479 --> 03:00:35,000 could ask, I bet Richard Grove does. I would ask Send a tweet 1919 03:00:35,040 --> 03:00:39,680 to Richard Grove and ask him he knows a lot of those older classical pedagogy 1920 03:00:39,719 --> 03:00:52,879 texts are there. And then talking like that, I can hear the insults. 1921 03:00:54,879 --> 03:00:56,799 Yeah, you're cutting out, man, I can't hear. I'm sorry. 1922 03:00:58,760 --> 03:01:01,959 Yeah, just ask Richard Grove what was a good textbook on rhetoricas ill? 1923 03:01:01,000 --> 03:01:05,600 But you he knows one, Maximos, what's up? Man, Let's 1924 03:01:05,600 --> 03:01:15,760 get through the last few people here? Hello, what's up? Oh? 1925 03:01:16,200 --> 03:01:22,040 Yeah? So my question. I'm an Oltle calendarist, and so my perspective 1926 03:01:22,120 --> 03:01:28,920 is that we basically share the faith confession of faith. We basically share the 1927 03:01:28,000 --> 03:01:35,440 idea that the cumunism is ecclesiological heresy, and we share that, we share 1928 03:01:35,520 --> 03:01:41,799 basically the idea that you should not be commute with heretics. What's a certain 1929 03:01:41,840 --> 03:01:46,840 line is across? And I think it just where you're cutting out, bro. 1930 03:01:48,559 --> 03:01:52,079 So I'm sorry that I heard you say that we're your old counteress and 1931 03:01:52,159 --> 03:01:54,600 where's the line? I don't know the line, but I don't think that 1932 03:01:54,680 --> 03:02:01,840 it makes sense to think that, Well, the line is everybody's immediately blacked 1933 03:02:01,879 --> 03:02:05,959 out, and every lady should immediately decide who's blacked out. It just leads 1934 03:02:05,959 --> 03:02:18,360 to infinite schisms, is my view. J T. Orthodox So superchat rebel 1935 03:02:18,719 --> 03:02:22,959 rowboll three dollars. Can you discuss Yahweh's origins? Well, I believe in 1936 03:02:22,000 --> 03:02:26,239 the Bible, So what do you mean it's origins? And the shift from 1937 03:02:26,239 --> 03:02:28,799 polytheism to monotheism in Israel. Yeah, I don't believe that. So if 1938 03:02:28,840 --> 03:02:35,280 you watch my debate with Daniel Hikikachu the Muslim or if you want to go 1939 03:02:35,360 --> 03:02:39,440 watch this video right here about the Jewish Trinity, I do not believe that 1940 03:02:39,479 --> 03:02:46,760 there was a shift from polytheism to unitarianism in Israel. So thank you for 1941 03:02:46,799 --> 03:02:52,000 that super chat. Though I've only found Protestants and Michael Heizer, I mean, 1942 03:02:52,000 --> 03:02:54,520 I believe in the Divine Council, but I mean the Orthodox to you 1943 03:02:54,600 --> 03:02:58,879 is that the Trinity is an Old Testament teaching and that was the whole lynchpin 1944 03:02:58,959 --> 03:03:03,479 of my argument against uh Daniel Kikachu and if your wife Sam Shimun, his 1945 03:03:03,600 --> 03:03:09,440 whole argument against Muslims is the same position. What's up? Yeah, Hi, 1946 03:03:09,239 --> 03:03:13,600 I was recently down night in London and there was a sort of famous 1947 03:03:13,600 --> 03:03:18,680 Apologies speaking and he usually goes for like sort of it's sort of like a 1948 03:03:18,680 --> 03:03:22,040 proto humanist sort of view because it's sort of it's sort of based on the 1949 03:03:22,399 --> 03:03:26,639 fact of like we know where the church is, but we don't know where 1950 03:03:26,639 --> 03:03:31,040 it is. Is that Bob yeah, the Builder? Yeah, yeah, 1951 03:03:31,079 --> 03:03:33,479 I know Bob, And we've done a couple of podcasts, but we had 1952 03:03:33,479 --> 03:03:37,440 a debate about ecumenism as well, and I've yeah, I've sort of been 1953 03:03:37,479 --> 03:03:41,799 confused because it sort of seems like where he draws lines for certain things, 1954 03:03:41,879 --> 03:03:43,879 he doesn't draw them for others. Yeah, and that's that was actually the 1955 03:03:43,920 --> 03:03:50,079 very argument I made the Barb. Yeah, and I feel like it's maybe 1956 03:03:50,159 --> 03:03:54,280 situate situational because his sort of area is sort of in speakers corner, just 1957 03:03:54,319 --> 03:04:00,719 sort of debating like sort of Daragandist, sort of Islamic sort of people just 1958 03:04:00,840 --> 03:04:03,600 coming at him all the time, right, and there's loads of Christians in 1959 03:04:03,639 --> 03:04:07,200 that park. So do you think that there's times where maybe we have to 1960 03:04:07,239 --> 03:04:13,360 be less sectarian and sort of unite even in the face of maybe some secondary 1961 03:04:13,440 --> 03:04:16,600 doctrines being sort of well, I don't think we have to concede that those 1962 03:04:16,639 --> 03:04:22,040 doctrines are secondary. I mean, but if you look at the track record 1963 03:04:22,079 --> 03:04:26,319 that we have here, I mean, I do podcasts and talks with Sam 1964 03:04:26,360 --> 03:04:28,639 Chamun, We've done it with Bob, I've done it with Tim Gordon, 1965 03:04:30,120 --> 03:04:33,159 and there's always the possibility of common cause. We just did a podcast not 1966 03:04:33,200 --> 03:04:37,760 too long ago with Inspiring Philosophy, So there's always the possibility of making common 1967 03:04:37,840 --> 03:04:45,719 cause without admitting to ecclesiology being secondary. So you know, we can always 1968 03:04:45,760 --> 03:04:48,559 know our differences and at the same time say well here we agree against, 1969 03:04:48,559 --> 03:04:52,520 you know, the Muslims. So I think both can be true. Yeah, 1970 03:04:52,559 --> 03:04:56,559 and if there's not like an Orthodox church did by what is sort of 1971 03:04:56,600 --> 03:04:58,000 the best thing to do? Because I've sort of lived in a place where 1972 03:04:58,000 --> 03:05:03,760 there's already got anger could the Church's Church of England sort of churches and there's 1973 03:05:03,760 --> 03:05:07,040 some maybe Catholics, right, And it's sort of a confusing miss because it's 1974 03:05:07,040 --> 03:05:11,079 sort of like if it is the one true church, it's sort of what 1975 03:05:11,399 --> 03:05:16,319 can we do if we cannot sort of reach that body. You just do 1976 03:05:16,399 --> 03:05:18,399 the best that you can. I mean I had a situation where I was 1977 03:05:18,440 --> 03:05:22,040 in that same situation for many years, so I would just get a prayer 1978 03:05:22,040 --> 03:05:24,639 book, get an Orthodox study Bible, and do the best that you can. 1979 03:05:24,760 --> 03:05:28,120 I mean, you know, God only expects you to do what you 1980 03:05:28,159 --> 03:05:35,159 can. So all right, I'm about I'm about We got another eight people, 1981 03:05:35,200 --> 03:05:39,600 so I apologize. We'll have another We do open forums all the time, 1982 03:05:39,639 --> 03:05:41,680 so just be ready if you want to hop on another time. But 1983 03:05:41,840 --> 03:05:43,079 I'm getting pretty tired, so I don't know if I can keep going anymore. 1984 03:05:43,360 --> 03:05:50,040 Bug Man, ten dollars, What do you think about be brother k 1985 03:05:52,680 --> 03:05:56,840 I think that you know, in the Orthodox world you have to be under 1986 03:05:56,760 --> 03:06:01,920 authority, so you can't be a non canonical just doing whatever you want in 1987 03:06:01,959 --> 03:06:07,879 the Orthodox world. So you know, I've never promoted people that are that 1988 03:06:07,920 --> 03:06:13,440 way. And the reason for that is has nothing to do with oh, 1989 03:06:13,559 --> 03:06:16,840 you're secretly scared you don't like that person. It's none of that. It's 1990 03:06:16,920 --> 03:06:24,000 just that, you know, in the Orthodox system and approach, like, 1991 03:06:24,079 --> 03:06:26,879 no man takes that authority on to himself. You have to have approval to 1992 03:06:28,079 --> 03:06:33,399 teach. Even if what you say is right or wrong or what like let's 1993 03:06:33,399 --> 03:06:37,639 say that test case scenario, everything you're saying is correct, like that still 1994 03:06:37,680 --> 03:06:43,719 doesn't mean that you have the authority of blessing to teach because for example, 1995 03:06:43,440 --> 03:06:48,440 and I'm not saying this about any specific person, I'm giving example, if 1996 03:06:48,440 --> 03:06:50,959 you go look at Patristic faith in the way that Father Deco Anaias approaches these 1997 03:06:50,959 --> 03:06:56,440 things, he doesn't promote or allow anybody to be promoted or to teach or 1998 03:06:56,440 --> 03:07:03,239 whatever. Link anybody who doesn't have a specific episcopal blessing, and you know, 1999 03:07:03,520 --> 03:07:09,120 maybe sometimes there's situations where people's status is foggy and I don't know, 2000 03:07:09,159 --> 03:07:13,559 I don't I can't judge that person individually. But there's a reason why, 2001 03:07:13,079 --> 03:07:18,200 as Paul says, no man takes it upon himself to teach, and I 2002 03:07:18,200 --> 03:07:20,280 don't want to teach, like I always feel like I kind of how can 2003 03:07:20,319 --> 03:07:22,920 I not teach? And then it's always kind to get drawn back in, 2004 03:07:24,159 --> 03:07:30,479 like Michael Corleone says, and go father two or three or whatever. Anyway, 2005 03:07:31,079 --> 03:07:33,959 Yeah, so you got to be under authority, and you know, 2006 03:07:35,280 --> 03:07:37,559 people might if people wonder, why, well, how come they don't have 2007 03:07:37,559 --> 03:07:39,719 the blessing because they're saying a lot of true things. Well, there might 2008 03:07:39,760 --> 03:07:43,959 be something that you don't know about this person that makes them not fit to 2009 03:07:43,000 --> 03:07:50,040 teach. So I'm not saying that specifically about any person. I'm just saying 2010 03:07:50,040 --> 03:07:54,639 that the wisdom of the Church's approach to approved and non approved teachers is that 2011 03:07:54,840 --> 03:07:58,399 just because somebody says something right, there's a lot of Protestants to say a 2012 03:07:58,440 --> 03:08:01,319 lot of right things, but that doesn't mean to have the blessing to teach 2013 03:08:05,479 --> 03:08:09,799 anyway. Thank you guys a great chat tonight. Hopefully we brought a little 2014 03:08:09,799 --> 03:08:13,920 bit of insight to the history and the question of the role and relationship between 2015 03:08:15,000 --> 03:08:20,000 church and state, and we're a little bit more enlightened about what the issues 2016 03:08:20,040 --> 03:08:24,680 are and we don't get caught up just in Internet stuff.