WEBVTT 1 00:00:02.680 --> 00:00:08.240 A passionate instigator and dynamic problem solver. Doctor Kevin ross Emery, the host 2 00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:12.240 of the Doctor Kevin Radio Show, will be taking you outside the box, 3 00:00:12.519 --> 00:00:17.359 behind the curtain and identifying the load of bs we are fed every day. 4 00:00:17.719 --> 00:00:27.239 And now Doctor Kevin, Hello, Hello, Hello, and welcome back to 5 00:00:27.280 --> 00:00:33.799 the Doctor Kevin Show here on own times, where we're changing the world wait 6 00:00:33.920 --> 00:00:42.479 for it one oh of the time. And as we've been referencing and we're 7 00:00:42.520 --> 00:00:47.200 still working out the detail. Starting sometime in January of twenty twenty four, 8 00:00:47.679 --> 00:00:53.719 we are doing a faith list and an overhaul of this show. I do 9 00:00:53.799 --> 00:00:57.719 that every now and then. After eighteen years, I've had enough faith lists 10 00:00:57.759 --> 00:01:03.799 to give Joan Rivers a run for her mind. And our current facelift will 11 00:01:03.840 --> 00:01:11.079 involve Ashley Olstein being a my regular co host. I think you're my fifth 12 00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:17.760 co host in eighteen years. She's here already trumping at the bit helping us 13 00:01:17.799 --> 00:01:23.599 move things forward. So just you know, keep your eyes open because one 14 00:01:23.640 --> 00:01:26.359 of these weeks you're gonna chime in and it's not going to be the Doctor 15 00:01:26.400 --> 00:01:30.439 Kevin Show anymore. But you're gonna have to keep tuning in to find out 16 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:36.599 the new name the new tagline and all that jazz, and all that jazz 17 00:01:36.680 --> 00:01:41.879 is not the name ash How are you, my dear? I am good. 18 00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:48.000 How are you doing today? Well? You know I was up doing 19 00:01:48.040 --> 00:01:52.560 my clients walking around in forty in twenty four degree weather. I wish it 20 00:01:52.599 --> 00:01:57.879 was forty two twenty four degree weather. I chugged in five miles and four 21 00:01:57.879 --> 00:02:04.560 hours of clients before noon. A good job, you know, and then 22 00:02:04.599 --> 00:02:07.120 I sent the afternoon as a possicle stick tried to just thaw. No. 23 00:02:13.319 --> 00:02:17.840 So before we bring in tonight's guest, is there anything new and exciting going 24 00:02:17.879 --> 00:02:25.560 on in the wonderful world of miss Ashley? Hm? Let me think well. 25 00:02:25.719 --> 00:02:32.039 Tomorrow night at six thirty Eastern Time until eight thirty, New Hampshire Metaphysical 26 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:39.560 is hosting a there every other month's online psychic message circle, So I will 27 00:02:39.560 --> 00:02:43.759 be there and I believe you will be as well. I know you will 28 00:02:43.759 --> 00:02:50.159 be. So you can find out more information at New Hampshire Metaphysical dot com, 29 00:02:50.199 --> 00:02:59.039 which is nh Metaphysical dot com. So that's tomorrow the fifteenth. Do 30 00:02:59.120 --> 00:03:01.639 you have anything what else monthly book clubs left for this year? Or have 31 00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:06.879 you well clubbed out because you do a month we have, Yes, I 32 00:03:07.000 --> 00:03:08.560 do a monthly book club. We were clubbed out for the year. We 33 00:03:09.439 --> 00:03:15.240 did our last meeting last week, but our next meeting is being held on 34 00:03:15.280 --> 00:03:22.120 wait for it, Tuesday, January twenty third, and we're diving a little 35 00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:25.319 deeper this time. We're going to do a Brene Brown daring greatly, but 36 00:03:25.360 --> 00:03:30.759 we're only going to do the first half so that we have time to really 37 00:03:30.319 --> 00:03:37.439 pick it apart and dive in and see how it can help us from day 38 00:03:37.479 --> 00:03:39.680 to day and you know, talk about the things we agree with and the 39 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:45.680 things we don't agree with. So I'm looking forward to that. That's also 40 00:03:45.719 --> 00:03:50.960 found it an h Metaphysical, New Hampshire Metaphysical dot com on the calendar. 41 00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.840 It's January twenty third, and we hold it online from seven pm till eight 42 00:03:55.960 --> 00:04:04.439 thirty ish. Well, because I know that we have an author on tonight 43 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:11.960 and we'll see if he's up to enough snuff that you do his book for 44 00:04:12.080 --> 00:04:15.800 one of your books, for one of your book clubs. Hint, hint, 45 00:04:15.000 --> 00:04:19.000 weink, wink, nod nod. Right, Yes, Stranger things happened. 46 00:04:19.959 --> 00:04:25.560 Stranger things, strange things that happened. You know who knows you might 47 00:04:25.639 --> 00:04:28.920 even say, hey, we'll do your book for book club if you want 48 00:04:28.959 --> 00:04:31.160 to make a guest appearance and answer some questions about it. You know, 49 00:04:31.439 --> 00:04:34.360 Hey, hey, you never can tell. All he can do is say 50 00:04:34.399 --> 00:04:38.879 no. But he doesn't want to say no before the show's over, or 51 00:04:38.879 --> 00:04:48.279 we'll have to accidentally disconnect him. Whoops, whoops ooops. How I have? 52 00:04:48.879 --> 00:04:54.639 I finished my last set of events last night. I have no events, 53 00:04:55.360 --> 00:05:00.240 no professional events for the rest of the year, and I fly else 54 00:05:00.240 --> 00:05:03.600 to thirty first to go to can Kum for a week and a second honeymoon. 55 00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:12.639 And I am looking forward to coming back in fit, energized shape, 56 00:05:12.839 --> 00:05:18.399 not this low pathetic energy like I have tonight, but really ready to tear 57 00:05:18.560 --> 00:05:26.639 up the new year Invitamin d hit, Yes for sure? Is that what 58 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:34.839 they're calling it these days? Oh boy, okay, but I'm out, 59 00:05:35.839 --> 00:05:41.600 but I'm bump. Speaking of but I'm bumped. I'm gonna bump dump, 60 00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:46.439 bump dump it over to you to introduce tonight's guest and to get this ball 61 00:05:46.560 --> 00:05:51.839 rolling. That's me. He hasn't hung up listening to the first five minutes 62 00:05:51.839 --> 00:05:55.279 of the show. He may be like, am I going to talk to 63 00:05:55.399 --> 00:05:58.879 my pr agent? I'm on here. This is a crazy, wacky ship 64 00:06:00.680 --> 00:06:08.839 who absolutely well. Tonight we have Christopher Hadnaggie. He is a global security 65 00:06:08.920 --> 00:06:14.560 expert and a master hacker. He is the founder and CEO of Social Engineer 66 00:06:14.920 --> 00:06:19.079 LLC, the creator of the popular Social Engineer podcast, which is a website 67 00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:26.399 and a newsletter. He designed Advanced Practical Social Engineering, which is the first 68 00:06:26.839 --> 00:06:32.399 hands on social engineering training force and certification for law enforcement, military, and 69 00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:38.800 the private sector professionals. He's also the first adjunct Professor of Social Engineering for 70 00:06:38.920 --> 00:06:44.519 the University of Arizona. He is the creator of the Human Hacking Conference, 71 00:06:44.800 --> 00:06:48.560 which is an annual conference focused on training people who hack themselves to achieve their 72 00:06:48.560 --> 00:06:53.639 goals. I hope we talk more about that tonight. A highly sought after 73 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:58.439 writer and speaker, he has spoken at events such as RSA and Black Hat 74 00:06:58.800 --> 00:07:03.040 and given numerous presentations for corporate, government, and military clients. He is 75 00:07:03.040 --> 00:07:06.920 the best selling author of four books, one of which is called Human Hacking. 76 00:07:08.399 --> 00:07:12.519 When Friends influence people and leave them better off for having met you. 77 00:07:13.319 --> 00:07:15.839 Drawing from his knowledge, he has created a book that empowers readers to enhance 78 00:07:15.879 --> 00:07:21.920 their self awareness, sharpen their communication skills, and achieve personal and professional goals. 79 00:07:23.639 --> 00:07:30.920 So hi, nice to Christopher. Chris. Chris Christopher had Maggie. 80 00:07:29.920 --> 00:07:36.439 Chris Christopher is like, when I'm in trouble. Oh well, nice to 81 00:07:36.480 --> 00:07:40.399 meet you, thank you, nice to be here, and thank you for 82 00:07:40.439 --> 00:07:46.399 that great introudle Chris Christopher. Tell me, now I'm in trouble. You 83 00:07:46.439 --> 00:07:47.800 see, Now I have to not sat up street as soon as you said 84 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:54.680 that. Hey, you know, we're pretty laid back in this show. 85 00:07:54.720 --> 00:08:01.199 We don't expect anyone to be straight, so so tell me. So, 86 00:08:03.959 --> 00:08:09.639 I want to wrap my head around something and then I'll see what what questions 87 00:08:09.600 --> 00:08:18.720 Ashley has. But your original expertise in hacking was more like technological. Am 88 00:08:18.720 --> 00:08:24.319 I correct you are? Yes? I was something called an exploit writer and 89 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.439 a network pen tester, so writing software code that would hack other pieces of 90 00:08:28.480 --> 00:08:37.440 software and hacking computers through through other computers. Oh oh, how much time 91 00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:41.679 did you get caught? Was there jail times? No? No, that's 92 00:08:41.679 --> 00:08:43.639 a great question, as I should have. I should have led with that, 93 00:08:43.639 --> 00:08:48.279 because that's usually is the is the what people think happened and how you 94 00:08:48.360 --> 00:08:50.759 get into this field. But I was always on the good side. So 95 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:54.519 if you think about this. Companies hire people like me to to come and 96 00:08:54.559 --> 00:08:58.720 hack them so we can tell them how we do it before the real bad 97 00:08:58.759 --> 00:09:01.519 guys do it. Like thinking I was like going to a doctor to get 98 00:09:01.519 --> 00:09:05.080 a physical. You get pope prodded, you know, X rayed. Doctor 99 00:09:05.120 --> 00:09:07.360 comes and says, hey, I found a few problems, you know, 100 00:09:07.399 --> 00:09:09.519 and then then they fix them before they turn into something you know, life 101 00:09:09.519 --> 00:09:13.159 and death. That's all we do. But we do it for your computer 102 00:09:13.240 --> 00:09:20.000 network and your people. Okay, So I am very interested in the bridge 103 00:09:20.039 --> 00:09:28.399 crossing because you know, I did all sorts of stuff in the business world 104 00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.360 before I started my own business, which is very people centered and I've been 105 00:09:33.399 --> 00:09:37.759 at it for thirty four years now. But to tell people who know me 106 00:09:37.799 --> 00:09:43.679 now that I like started in accounting that I actually did something in computers when 107 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.799 they took up the whole basement and the bottom of the bank floor, uh, 108 00:09:48.559 --> 00:09:54.440 you know, and stuff like that, and they go and you're an 109 00:09:54.440 --> 00:10:00.840 inspirational catalyst and work with with with people and business and do all of this 110 00:10:00.919 --> 00:10:05.919 stuff. Like where did all of that come? And so I'm fascinated how 111 00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:11.960 you made the jump from hacking code to it now sounds like hacking people, 112 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.559 Am I am I on the right trail or did I miss you were on 113 00:10:13.600 --> 00:10:18.120 the right trail? Okay, So this is an interesting, an interesting story. 114 00:10:18.159 --> 00:10:20.279 And I'm not sure how far back you want me to go, but 115 00:10:22.960 --> 00:10:26.159 go over back. Yeah, however far back do you feel like you need 116 00:10:26.159 --> 00:10:31.080 to go to give us context? How about you to always tell my guests 117 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:33.120 tell us to me like, I'm a five year old and someday I'll hit 118 00:10:33.200 --> 00:10:37.120 sick, but it a happening this year. It starts around that time, 119 00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.440 right, Because when I was a kid, I found this weird knapp that 120 00:10:41.519 --> 00:10:45.879 I had of getting into places and jobs and things that I had no right 121 00:10:45.919 --> 00:10:50.000 being. Like at seventeen, I was a vice landlord for a big apartment 122 00:10:50.039 --> 00:10:54.720 complex because I was doing delivery of papers, accounting papers. And I walk 123 00:10:54.799 --> 00:10:58.240 in the office and this guy is sitting there chain smoking and looking like he's 124 00:10:58.279 --> 00:11:00.279 about to jump off a bridge. And I just like, hey, man, 125 00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:01.919 what's going on? You're okay? And he started telling me his life 126 00:11:03.000 --> 00:11:05.240 story. His wife left him, took the daughter, went back to Wisconsin, 127 00:11:05.720 --> 00:11:07.879 and I'm like, want you go after if you still love her, 128 00:11:07.919 --> 00:11:09.600 go after. He's like, I got to run this place. I'm like, 129 00:11:09.639 --> 00:11:11.799 I'll run it for you. An hour and a half later, I 130 00:11:11.879 --> 00:11:15.799 got a job as a as a vice landlord for an apartment complex, and 131 00:11:15.840 --> 00:11:18.039 I'm running this place for like a year. Guy says, I don't want 132 00:11:18.039 --> 00:11:20.120 to come back this lot of you know, what are we going to do? 133 00:11:20.159 --> 00:11:22.399 I said, you want me to sell it? He's like, you 134 00:11:22.480 --> 00:11:24.559 know how to sell an apartment? Said noah, but I can try. 135 00:11:24.840 --> 00:11:26.679 I sold the thing for a couple of million bucks, right, sold myself 136 00:11:26.679 --> 00:11:31.279 out of a job. Not really great. Later on in life, I 137 00:11:31.799 --> 00:11:35.360 was driving down the road looking for a job as a restaurant. Says chef 138 00:11:35.440 --> 00:11:37.039 wanted. I walk in. I go, hey, I'm your next chef. 139 00:11:37.200 --> 00:11:41.279 Guy says, what credentials do you have? Where'd you go to school? 140 00:11:41.279 --> 00:11:43.440 I'm like, forget about all that. Let me cook you something. 141 00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:46.960 I cook something in this guy's kitchen for him. He hires me on the 142 00:11:46.960 --> 00:11:48.480 spot. I have no clue what I'm doing, right. I mean, 143 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:52.159 I'm a good home cook, but that's about it. He says, Okay, 144 00:11:52.159 --> 00:11:54.759 I need you to Julianne these carrots. I don't even know what Julianne 145 00:11:54.799 --> 00:11:58.840 means, so I say to him, listen, Tom, everybody I've ever 146 00:11:58.840 --> 00:12:01.240 worked for Julian's a little bit, So why don't you show me your method 147 00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:03.720 and then I can do it right for you. And he's like, I 148 00:12:03.799 --> 00:12:07.639 really like you, young man. That's a great that's a great attitude. 149 00:12:07.679 --> 00:12:09.519 So he shows me. Now I know what Julianne is. Every time he 150 00:12:09.559 --> 00:12:11.720 asked me to do something like hey, can you show me rough chop? 151 00:12:11.759 --> 00:12:15.279 Can you show me this? And then he would show me his method. 152 00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:16.639 I learned it. I was there for a couple of years. I became 153 00:12:16.639 --> 00:12:20.559 a chef under this guy's footelage. Never went to school for it. Okay, 154 00:12:20.679 --> 00:12:24.480 jump forward. Now I'm doing the hacking and the exploit writing and stuff 155 00:12:24.519 --> 00:12:28.399 like that, and I actually stink at it, like I'm really bad. 156 00:12:28.840 --> 00:12:31.399 But I worked for this company. I loved my job. So we would 157 00:12:31.440 --> 00:12:33.159 get these tests, these audits where we'd have to break in the companies, 158 00:12:33.720 --> 00:12:37.639 and I would say to the boss like can I can I just call and 159 00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:39.639 ask for a password? And they were like, why would anyone give you 160 00:12:39.679 --> 00:12:41.279 a password? I'm like, I don't know, but can I try? 161 00:12:43.080 --> 00:12:46.000 Sure? So I try it, and I'd call up and say, hey, 162 00:12:46.000 --> 00:12:48.639 this is Paul. For my t we had a database problem. I 163 00:12:48.639 --> 00:12:50.120 need to reset your account. What's your password? And people would give me 164 00:12:50.159 --> 00:12:54.080 the password. I come back to the boss and say, hey, here's 165 00:12:54.080 --> 00:12:56.679 the password for the accounts. It's like, what the heck. I started 166 00:12:56.679 --> 00:12:58.759 doing this every test and they were like, this is crazy. Then the 167 00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:03.679 cis and this is where the shift came. Client says to me, great, 168 00:13:03.720 --> 00:13:07.200 you did it, but why did it work? And I said, 169 00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:09.519 I have no clue, don't know why it worked. And this one client 170 00:13:09.559 --> 00:13:11.519 looks at me and he says, you know if I went to an auto 171 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.000 mechanic and I said, hey, I got a problem with my car and 172 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.200 it's making this noise and he listened to it and he said, yep, 173 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:20.639 that's your alternator. And then I went, great, fix it and he 174 00:13:20.639 --> 00:13:24.360 goes, I don't know how, because I'd be really ticked at that auto 175 00:13:24.399 --> 00:13:28.000 mechanic. And I'm like, you've got a good point. You got a 176 00:13:28.039 --> 00:13:31.159 really good point. So I said, Okay, I guess I'm gonna have 177 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.200 to figure that out. So I started buying books and reading everything on influence, 178 00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:39.360 persuasion, rapport building, nonverbal communications, psychology, decision making, the 179 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.000 amigdala. I started reading everything I can get my hands on and I built 180 00:13:43.000 --> 00:13:48.200 a framework, and the framework came out in two thousand and nine, about 181 00:13:48.200 --> 00:13:50.200 two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, I put it online. 182 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:52.440 I thought it was just going to be a fun, little side project. 183 00:13:54.120 --> 00:13:58.159 And then the world's most famous social engineer, Kevin Mitnick, he got arrested 184 00:13:58.159 --> 00:14:03.120 and went to prison for social engineering all tell and the FBI. He got 185 00:14:03.120 --> 00:14:05.919 out of prison, and he became a really good guy. He started doing 186 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:07.559 a living. He wrote a bunch of books. His publisher calls me, 187 00:14:09.120 --> 00:14:11.960 she says, hey, do you want to write a book about that framework 188 00:14:11.000 --> 00:14:13.879 you just put out? And I'm like, I'm not an author. I'm 189 00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:15.799 just like a little hacker guy. And she's like, no, no, 190 00:14:15.840 --> 00:14:16.799 you got to write a book on this. No one's ever done this. 191 00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:20.799 I'm like, Okay, I'll write a book. So I wrote my first 192 00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:24.679 book, and two came out in twenty ten. And when that book came 193 00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.879 out, everybody was calling and asking about consulting. And that's when I left 194 00:14:28.879 --> 00:14:33.799 doing that other stuff and went over to the human side and realized that I 195 00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:37.759 needed to keep teaching myself and learning and reading every day because there's so much 196 00:14:37.799 --> 00:14:41.480 stuff when it comes to science and psychology and understanding how people think and work, 197 00:14:41.159 --> 00:14:46.080 and that leads us to right now, sitting here with you, and 198 00:14:46.240 --> 00:14:54.200 four more books later. So I've got to have an odd question for you, 199 00:14:56.879 --> 00:15:03.440 which is how'd you do in school? Not a lot of question. 200 00:15:03.879 --> 00:15:07.399 I was a very, very bad student. But here's the thing. I 201 00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:11.080 was a really bad student because I'm not a traditional learner. But then it 202 00:15:11.120 --> 00:15:16.440 would be these things like I remember in my tenth year, I'm about to 203 00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:18.519 fail, right, I'm like, the teachers pull me in and they're like, 204 00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:22.799 man, if you don't get straight b's for the fourth quarter, you're 205 00:15:22.840 --> 00:15:26.120 not going to graduate, Like you're going to get left back. So I 206 00:15:26.159 --> 00:15:31.200 just I got straight a's for the fourth quarter and they were like, if 207 00:15:31.240 --> 00:15:31.960 you can do that, then why don't you do that all year? And 208 00:15:33.000 --> 00:15:35.360 I'm like this on board, right, It's just I didn't like it. 209 00:15:35.519 --> 00:15:39.080 So that was my school. I was never I did what I needed to 210 00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.399 do to get out of school, but I did not. I was not 211 00:15:43.519 --> 00:15:45.960 a great I was not a genius student. That was not one of those 212 00:15:46.000 --> 00:15:50.559 people that was like on the honor roll and excelling at everything. Do you 213 00:15:50.559 --> 00:15:54.679 have any idea why I asked you that question. I don't, but I'm 214 00:15:54.679 --> 00:15:58.519 going to take a guess that it has to do something with like what the 215 00:15:58.720 --> 00:16:04.000 chaotic mind or something like that. I was thinking more along the terms of 216 00:16:04.159 --> 00:16:10.320 a d D and ADHD. Oh, I don't know if I have that. 217 00:16:10.320 --> 00:16:15.440 That's a good question. I would strongly suspect you're one of my kids. 218 00:16:15.440 --> 00:16:22.559 From everything, everything so dead. I always wonder where my dad was 219 00:16:22.879 --> 00:16:30.679 doctor taking my father out. Yeah, I don't expect an inheritance. That's 220 00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.519 what I was going for. Man, I was like, Dad, I 221 00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:37.759 need some money. I'm gonna you got four books out in your You're aren't 222 00:16:37.799 --> 00:16:41.240 here and you're stomping around and you're doing all the fabulous stuff and you need 223 00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:45.360 money. Well, right there. Interviews over Astley, let's talk about weather. 224 00:16:49.000 --> 00:16:56.600 So I actually have several books out on a d D and ADHD and 225 00:16:56.720 --> 00:16:59.919 have had stuff out that have been working with us since the late nineties. 226 00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:03.600 And I look at add as part of the evolutionary process brought me in the 227 00:17:03.639 --> 00:17:08.680 bed with the humanity and other disease disorder or disability. And you are definitely 228 00:17:08.680 --> 00:17:15.519 a shade on my ADD ADHD rainbow and just everything. The way that you 229 00:17:15.680 --> 00:17:19.839 do it, it's like, it tells me that this is and my books 230 00:17:19.839 --> 00:17:25.119 are all start out with the words managing the gift. Again, I don't 231 00:17:25.160 --> 00:17:29.880 see it as a disability or but it explains how you move through the world 232 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.240 the way you did, which in some ways parallels some of my journey. 233 00:17:33.240 --> 00:17:34.400 I'm not going to get it. This interviews about you, not me, 234 00:17:34.839 --> 00:17:38.599 but I have some parallels with you. And I'm an add poster child and 235 00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:45.799 I'm like, oh, one of my kids welcome. So anyways, that's 236 00:17:45.799 --> 00:17:48.880 why I asked. I was like, yep, I know what's on the 237 00:17:48.880 --> 00:17:56.720 other side of this. So Ashley, I'm gonna stop talking long enough for 238 00:17:56.799 --> 00:18:06.039 you to ask questions or or or or poke at this imposter's story. What 239 00:18:06.039 --> 00:18:08.559 do you yeah, I can be that, I'll figure it out. Sure. 240 00:18:11.720 --> 00:18:14.440 I never did get dangerous, like I never went to be a surgeon 241 00:18:14.599 --> 00:18:15.960 or you know, like a pilot or anything like that. I didn't do 242 00:18:15.960 --> 00:18:18.920 anything like that. I wasn't Frank Evan, you know, you know, 243 00:18:18.960 --> 00:18:22.640 I didn't do anything that hurt people. Just I was an international negotiator for 244 00:18:22.680 --> 00:18:27.880 stainless steel in India and China. I was an accounting software salesperson, you 245 00:18:27.920 --> 00:18:32.519 know, a chef, but I owned a window cleaning business for a little 246 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:34.079 while, you know, so I did a bunch of different things like that. 247 00:18:36.200 --> 00:18:38.400 A butcher, a baker, a candlestick maker. Yeah, my kids, 248 00:18:38.440 --> 00:18:44.960 that's it. Actually, I'm I am unlike Kevin. I am not 249 00:18:45.000 --> 00:18:49.920 an expert with add ADHD, but I would agree with Kevin. I think 250 00:18:51.039 --> 00:18:55.519 just even what you said, you were a non traditional learner, and you 251 00:18:56.160 --> 00:18:59.279 were able to figure out the back door into all of these things in a 252 00:18:59.319 --> 00:19:03.279 way, and you're stiffer charismatic. Seems that you can really just kind of 253 00:19:03.279 --> 00:19:10.039 talk your way into any of those things. So not surprising that you're onto 254 00:19:10.079 --> 00:19:15.680 the human hacking. I love it. I think that's so interesting and fascinating 255 00:19:15.720 --> 00:19:21.640 and I guess it might be jumping ahead, But how are I mean, 256 00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:26.119 most people, I think are pretty pretty much the same that you know, 257 00:19:26.160 --> 00:19:30.559 everyone's personality is a little bit different, but I think people's behavior can be 258 00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:37.200 pretty much predicted. Am I in agreement with your studying? Yeah? So 259 00:19:37.240 --> 00:19:41.440 what I found is that when it comes to communication, right, I use 260 00:19:41.480 --> 00:19:45.920 a tool called DISC, a disc profiling tool, and it puts people into 261 00:19:45.960 --> 00:19:48.920 four different quadrants of communication types. And what I've found is that if you 262 00:19:49.000 --> 00:19:55.359 can predict the type of communicator that somebody is, then you often can predict 263 00:19:55.400 --> 00:20:00.640 how they will answer or react to certain types of questions or stimuli. Right 264 00:20:00.759 --> 00:20:03.279 like you know you have like I'm gonna take a guess, like doctor Kevin 265 00:20:03.400 --> 00:20:07.759 is a high eye, you know, very out there, energetic in the 266 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:12.559 spotlight, very happy. You know, jovial, doesn't mind poking at himself. 267 00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:15.319 These are all kinds of high eyes. So you know, eyes will 268 00:20:15.559 --> 00:20:21.279 will react very well to to high praise questions, to things that are high 269 00:20:21.440 --> 00:20:25.960 energy, to stories that are exciting. They'll react very well to those things 270 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:30.920 where you seem more like like maybe an s like a supportive type, someone 271 00:20:30.960 --> 00:20:33.799 who like really loves the team, you know, gets behind other people succeeding 272 00:20:33.799 --> 00:20:37.359 and things like that, and that that is not someone who really enjoys the 273 00:20:37.359 --> 00:20:41.599 spotlight as much or wants stories to have a little more of a team benefit 274 00:20:41.640 --> 00:20:45.160 to it, and things like that. So once you understand how people communicate, 275 00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:51.599 you can then alter your actions, your pretexts, your and your expectations 276 00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:56.160 because you can then usually qualify how most likely they'll act when you present X, 277 00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:59.599 Y and Z. So I know if I do this, if you're 278 00:20:59.599 --> 00:21:02.319 an eye, you're probably going to act this way, and that can mean 279 00:21:02.359 --> 00:21:04.799 I can I can I can prophesy if that's a bad word, but I 280 00:21:04.799 --> 00:21:11.160 can foretell how you're going to probably react to the scheme, and then that 281 00:21:11.160 --> 00:21:17.920 can put me in a good place. Fascinating, And what about and what 282 00:21:18.000 --> 00:21:21.279 are the other two categories? I don't think I'm an act by the way, 283 00:21:22.079 --> 00:21:25.400 Oh no, okay, you'll get a base. So I think that 284 00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:27.519 if you know any think that in a certain But I'm curious that the other 285 00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:32.960 two are sure. So the other ones are deep, which which is very 286 00:21:32.960 --> 00:21:33.960 good because you just said, like, oh, I don't think I am, 287 00:21:33.960 --> 00:21:37.599 and that's a very de characteristic which someone who's very direct does not mind 288 00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:42.680 being direct direct people, but which is what I am. So direct people 289 00:21:42.720 --> 00:21:48.599 oftentimes can be confused with like maybe being blunt or or abrasive, but it's 290 00:21:48.640 --> 00:21:55.119 just that we're very direct in that direct people are task oriented and and very 291 00:21:55.160 --> 00:21:56.960 you know, very focused on the task. And then the last one to 292 00:21:57.079 --> 00:22:00.480 see what you are conscientious people. Those are those who really love the lists. 293 00:22:00.799 --> 00:22:07.480 They love things being organized, they love things that's be's color coded and 294 00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:11.160 yeah, so they love all that kind of stuff and those people are often 295 00:22:11.839 --> 00:22:17.880 very task focused also and indirect. So the d's are direct and task focused, 296 00:22:17.880 --> 00:22:22.559 the c's are or task focused and indirect. The eyes are people focused 297 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:30.400 and direct, and the sas are people focused and indirect. Fascinating. Okay, 298 00:22:32.359 --> 00:22:36.680 so go ahead, ash, No, No, it's you, It's 299 00:22:36.759 --> 00:22:44.880 all you. So one of the things I've you know, I like, 300 00:22:45.039 --> 00:22:48.839 I preferred to you being like, uh, one of my kids, right 301 00:22:48.079 --> 00:22:55.160 and you know, and you know and and being like A I don't know 302 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.200 if I set a shade on the rainbow, but you know I have this 303 00:22:59.759 --> 00:23:07.200 they that's got sixty four shades that breaks ad A dhde out into. And 304 00:23:07.519 --> 00:23:11.160 one of the things when I was creating that and dealing kind of in a 305 00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:17.440 parallel way like what you're doing, only I was specifically doing it for the 306 00:23:17.440 --> 00:23:27.920 A D D ADHD is that there are situational shifts in letters. Do you 307 00:23:29.119 --> 00:23:34.960 find that to be true that somebody could be a D at work and might 308 00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:40.559 be or an I at work, and they might be an S at home 309 00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:45.359 and they might be PAY with their birth or C with their birth family. 310 00:23:45.880 --> 00:23:55.960 Do you find that situational affects your disc model mobile one per one hundred and 311 00:23:56.079 --> 00:23:59.400 not only that, but not for everybody. For some people, like in 312 00:23:59.440 --> 00:24:02.440 my profile, well, it's like what you see is what you get. 313 00:24:02.519 --> 00:24:04.400 I am. I am who I am across the board, no matter where 314 00:24:04.440 --> 00:24:10.039 I'm at. But a lot of people have a much different profile for when 315 00:24:10.079 --> 00:24:12.440 they're at work than when they're with their loved ones and their family, when 316 00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:17.359 they don't have to be a certain type of person or personality. Right, 317 00:24:17.400 --> 00:24:18.960 And you could probably think of someone famous, like let's say, like Jim 318 00:24:19.039 --> 00:24:23.279 Carrey. You know, when you ever you get like intimate looks into his 319 00:24:23.319 --> 00:24:27.839 life, he is so calm and solemn, even like almost a little sad, 320 00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:30.920 as opposed to what he is in the movies and what he is on 321 00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.440 interviews, and he just does not appear like that person when he's just sitting 322 00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:47.440 there privately. Well, and you know, I think it's interesting, you 323 00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:56.839 know, because I know that when I am doing a radio interview, when 324 00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.119 I'm speaking on a stage, when I'm teaching a client, if I'm at 325 00:25:00.160 --> 00:25:07.759 a networking event, I rise comfortably to that equation. And people have this 326 00:25:07.839 --> 00:25:15.240 impression that I am very extroverted, and I actually am on the borderline of 327 00:25:15.279 --> 00:25:18.920 an extrovert. Introvert every time I've taken the test, I'm only a few 328 00:25:18.920 --> 00:25:25.039 degrees on one side or the other. Like what you you show no introvert, 329 00:25:25.079 --> 00:25:32.680 I'm like you never see it. And radio personality, yeah, I 330 00:25:32.720 --> 00:25:36.680 mean like I'm I'm game for whatever is going on. You don't. I 331 00:25:36.759 --> 00:25:44.759 don't show up with this personality. You know at a funeral, the tend 332 00:25:44.920 --> 00:25:48.920 the funeral, right, Well, if it's mine, I'll show up with 333 00:25:48.960 --> 00:25:55.920 it. But that's a side hope not are you kidding? I'm going to 334 00:25:55.960 --> 00:25:59.119 shoot a five hour video that's going to be playing over my casket. They're 335 00:25:59.160 --> 00:26:06.920 going to have to watch now. We are all here, JN. So 336 00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:11.720 don't worry, none of you'll be around to see it. I'm all living, 337 00:26:11.759 --> 00:26:15.720 all of you. There is the music. I was expecting that we're 338 00:26:15.720 --> 00:26:21.039 going to get more into disc We're going to get more into PRIs and we're 339 00:26:21.079 --> 00:26:26.160 gonna find out more about human hacking when we get back here on The Doctor 340 00:26:26.240 --> 00:26:37.880 Kevin Show. Conscious Media for Conscious Minds on Own Times, Host Your Show 341 00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:42.039 on iom f M. The radio network of Own Times Media one of the 342 00:26:42.079 --> 00:26:47.599 more recognized brand names in the conscious community, and is backed by the extensive 343 00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:52.920 marketing reach of Own Tash hosting a show on IOM FM immediately connects you with 344 00:26:52.000 --> 00:27:00.480 our extensive dedicated communities in the Conscious Box. The New Voice of Novas the 345 00:27:00.640 --> 00:27:07.359 New dimensionally connects you with our Box Novas thought and movement leaders who will share 346 00:27:07.440 --> 00:27:12.319 from their experience and offer tools to help us navigate our rapidly changing world. 347 00:27:14.039 --> 00:27:18.240 My name is Victor Furman. Join me every Thursday at eight pm Eastern on 348 00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:26.079 All Times Radio for Box Novus, the New Voice. 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Brought 358 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:29.400 to you by the AD Council. Welcome out and shoes. Hello, Hello, 359 00:28:29.440 --> 00:28:33.240 Hello, and welcome back to the Doctor Kevin Show, where I'm here 360 00:28:33.279 --> 00:28:38.880 with my co host Ashley Old and i am here with our guest. Would 361 00:28:38.920 --> 00:28:44.200 you like to do a mini reintroduction, miss ash of him. You can 362 00:28:44.200 --> 00:28:48.039 cut it down to like two sentences, Yes, I would. Today we 363 00:28:48.160 --> 00:28:59.759 have Chris Hadnaggie who is a people hacker. He has compiled his knowledge over 364 00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:04.640 the year years and has written four books, one of which we're hopefully going 365 00:29:04.640 --> 00:29:08.920 to talk about in a little bit called human hacking, when friends influence people 366 00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:15.480 and leave them better off for having met you. Nice to be here, 367 00:29:15.480 --> 00:29:19.400 and where could they find your book? Chris? It's any where the books 368 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:23.160 are sold. Yeah, they can Amazon. I have them on Amazon. 369 00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.720 I have many where the books are sold. The last one was up published 370 00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:32.839 by HarperCollins and the first were published by Wiley. So they're basically everywhere they 371 00:29:32.880 --> 00:29:37.960 get around. Sounds like you they get around. Yeah, yeah, that's 372 00:29:38.039 --> 00:29:44.359 good. Before we let Ashley drag you into more depth in the book, 373 00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:48.640 I do have one question I'd like to throw out to you. What is 374 00:29:48.680 --> 00:29:57.200 the difference between this hacking that you talk about people hacking, human hacking, 375 00:29:59.359 --> 00:30:11.200 okay, and people manipulating rage question. Yeah, that is a really nice 376 00:30:11.200 --> 00:30:15.519 one. So I'm gonna say that both of them can fall into the same 377 00:30:15.640 --> 00:30:21.640 category. But it depends on your intent. So when we see malicious people 378 00:30:22.039 --> 00:30:25.920 use the very same skills that I use every day, their intent to steal 379 00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:30.400 your money or your identity, or to exploit you or extort you at some 380 00:30:30.519 --> 00:30:34.319 point, their motive is always selfish and it is to damage you for their 381 00:30:34.359 --> 00:30:40.160 benefit. People like me and myself, we do this for the benefit of 382 00:30:40.960 --> 00:30:45.039 helping companies to improve. So I won't use pretexts. I won't use acts 383 00:30:45.039 --> 00:30:52.680 that wouldever make someone feel shame or guilt or anger. I ban myself and 384 00:30:52.759 --> 00:30:57.519 my employees from ever using things like sexual pretext or pretext that you offer to 385 00:30:57.559 --> 00:31:02.880 fire someone if they don't comply, or flirtation, because those things don't offer 386 00:31:02.960 --> 00:31:06.799 a training instance, and they make people feel shame and they make them feel 387 00:31:06.839 --> 00:31:10.160 better. The bad guys, they'll use any tactic. I mean, right 388 00:31:10.200 --> 00:31:15.279 now, there's a horrible scam going around on our young people where these groups 389 00:31:15.319 --> 00:31:19.440 of folks are coming into gaming sites. They're chatting anywhere from eleven to eighteen 390 00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:23.839 years old up and they're getting them to send new pictures and then once they 391 00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:27.279 do that, they're now extorting them. And they're having them steal money from 392 00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:32.279 their parents and wire money or use credit cards or send money through zell or 393 00:31:32.279 --> 00:31:34.680 something like that to these people who are extorting them, or they're going to 394 00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:40.240 release those pictures online and it's just horrific. So like when you think of 395 00:31:40.279 --> 00:31:42.160 that, it's the same. Sadly, I hate to make the comparison the 396 00:31:42.200 --> 00:31:45.160 same exact skills that I use each and every day, but I would never 397 00:31:45.240 --> 00:31:49.319 do that. I would never do something so unethical and immoral. So it's 398 00:31:49.359 --> 00:31:53.559 just a matter of how you apply those skills that makes the difference into if 399 00:31:53.599 --> 00:32:04.839 it's malicious or if it's not. See, because I teach a healing course 400 00:32:05.279 --> 00:32:08.160 for people that want to learn to do what I do with people, and 401 00:32:08.559 --> 00:32:16.319 I teach a whole component on positive versus negative manipulation. Yes, and some 402 00:32:16.480 --> 00:32:22.359 of how you're describing it is is that you know, are you trying to 403 00:32:22.400 --> 00:32:27.079 create a win win win situation? Is it in the best interest of that 404 00:32:27.160 --> 00:32:30.799 person and you're just trying to get them to see it is in their best 405 00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:35.279 interests so as you assess how they need to hear or what they need, 406 00:32:35.359 --> 00:32:37.839 you know, like how do I communicate with them? Things like that. 407 00:32:37.920 --> 00:32:40.559 So I find this. I actually have run across your disc stuff before. 408 00:32:42.240 --> 00:32:44.160 When you said it, I was like, oh, I know that, 409 00:32:44.920 --> 00:32:47.440 but I couldn't find the file and the file folder. I'm old, and 410 00:32:49.440 --> 00:32:52.920 so I know I've seen DISK. I know I've been exposed to it. 411 00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:54.519 I know I've read about it. I don't think i've read the book, 412 00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:00.599 but I know I've come across it before. So but anyways, but that's 413 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:02.920 that's the question I wanted to ask. And so, yeah, no, 414 00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:06.920 I love that. I love that thought because, like you know, I 415 00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:10.039 like, in the same token the book that we're talking about that was about 416 00:33:10.079 --> 00:33:14.359 like applying these same skills I do every day for work with applying them in 417 00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.799 everyday life. And people will ask that question, well, then, if 418 00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:21.039 you're doing it to get things in your life, aren't you manipulating people? 419 00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.960 And I'm like, no, because you can. If you give people a 420 00:33:24.000 --> 00:33:29.119 way out, if you give them the freedom to make a choice to not 421 00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:32.079 comply with your wishes, then you're not manipulating them. It's it's the bad 422 00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:35.759 guys you feel like you have no choice, like if you don't do this, 423 00:33:36.200 --> 00:33:37.559 I'm releasing these pictures. Or if you don't do this, I'm getting 424 00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:40.079 you fired. Or if you don't do this, I'm hacking your computer. 425 00:33:40.559 --> 00:33:45.279 You know, they they use methods that employ if you don't do this, 426 00:33:45.359 --> 00:33:47.720 something bad happens to you. If you use these skills in life, even 427 00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:51.839 to get something for yourself. As long as the person has the choice to 428 00:33:51.880 --> 00:33:55.400 say I'm sorry, I can't help you right now, then you're giving them 429 00:33:55.440 --> 00:33:59.759 that freedom and that dignity to be able to walk away without harm. And 430 00:34:00.039 --> 00:34:06.039 that makes you a manipulator. Yeah, so again, you know, I'm 431 00:34:06.240 --> 00:34:10.159 very much about Manipulation in of itself is simply a word, and it's the 432 00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:16.760 adjective that we put the adverb. Sorry my English teaches rolling over in her 433 00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:23.239 grave, that the adverb that we put in front of it, that determines 434 00:34:23.320 --> 00:34:28.039 what is the color the shade of the manipulation. And yeah, I like 435 00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:32.840 that positive and negative. And you know sometimes and we all manipulate. If 436 00:34:32.840 --> 00:34:36.480 you have ever had a kid and you're trying to get them to eat their 437 00:34:36.559 --> 00:34:40.000 vegetables, you manipulate them. Here's the airplane, open your mouth. There's 438 00:34:40.039 --> 00:34:45.119 the manipulation, right, we all do it. It's how we do it 439 00:34:45.320 --> 00:34:46.920 and why we do it and what our intention is. And intention is so 440 00:34:47.039 --> 00:34:53.320 important. So Ashley Grillim on his book, Let's wind out it, Let's 441 00:34:54.000 --> 00:34:59.199 find out Well. One question I was thinking of before we get into the 442 00:34:59.239 --> 00:35:05.159 book, which is kind of of a segue, would be, by learning 443 00:35:05.199 --> 00:35:12.119 these skills and reading the book and digging into it, can you kind of 444 00:35:12.599 --> 00:35:16.400 see the manipulation coming positive or negative? But I'm mostly talking about a negative 445 00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:23.360 manipulation. You know, does it help like shore you up for being prepared 446 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:30.199 for these kinds of you know, hacks, human hacks. Yeah, yeah, 447 00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:32.840 that's a great question, and I would say the answer is yes. 448 00:35:32.920 --> 00:35:37.199 It's kind of like I use an analogy like going to uh, let's say, 449 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:39.760 a boxing gym or a martial arts gym, and you say to the 450 00:35:39.800 --> 00:35:43.719 trainer like, I really want to learn how to defend myself, and he, 451 00:35:43.840 --> 00:35:45.719 you know, he shows you, and months later, you know, 452 00:35:45.840 --> 00:35:49.519 you're you're you're you're at the heavy bag, you're hitting a heavy bag, 453 00:35:49.559 --> 00:35:52.239 and then someday you're out and somebody you know goes to take something from you. 454 00:35:52.239 --> 00:35:55.880 You find your muscle memory kicks in and you're you know, you just 455 00:35:55.920 --> 00:35:59.800 you react without even thinking about it, like you didn't have to think, 456 00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:01.000 and all of a sudden, ben you or you took an action like whoa, 457 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:04.960 how did that happen? That's practice, right. So it's the same 458 00:36:05.000 --> 00:36:07.000 with these skills, is that you the more you know about it, and 459 00:36:07.039 --> 00:36:09.400 all of a sudden you see someone taking a tactic, you think, wait, 460 00:36:09.440 --> 00:36:12.679 waite, I know what's happening here. It's like, I understand what's 461 00:36:12.679 --> 00:36:15.679 happened. This guy's trying to manipulate me to giving my password or to give 462 00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:17.679 them a credit card, Like I see that. And the more ware we 463 00:36:17.719 --> 00:36:21.360 are of those things, the easier it is for us to defend against them. 464 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:23.719 And and this is a two edged sword, right because I say this 465 00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.159 and then people go, well, that means I got to go tell my 466 00:36:27.239 --> 00:36:30.559 mom and my grandma all these all these things. And I'm like, well, 467 00:36:30.840 --> 00:36:32.079 there's a there's a caveat to that, right, if you don't take 468 00:36:32.119 --> 00:36:36.679 your young children and sit them down and talk about sex stortion, you know, 469 00:36:36.719 --> 00:36:40.400 you have to do things that are age appropriate and also feel appropriate while 470 00:36:40.400 --> 00:36:44.920 still trying to employ this principle of keeping people informed. That they can be 471 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:52.480 armed and defend themselves properly. Cocha did you say sex stortion? I did. 472 00:36:52.800 --> 00:36:59.000 That's a new phrase coming and thank god, but yeah, that's a 473 00:36:59.000 --> 00:37:01.639 good one. That's a good fun even a phrase, a good word. 474 00:37:02.519 --> 00:37:07.480 It's as sadly it is the it is the thing that I was describing before 475 00:37:07.119 --> 00:37:12.599 about how we're seeing these groups of people get young children to do this, 476 00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:16.239 and they started calling it. The FBI started calling it the extortion because they're 477 00:37:16.320 --> 00:37:20.880 using these, you know, sexual images to extort children. But it's not 478 00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:27.079 just children. We see this happening to grown adults too, So it's just 479 00:37:27.079 --> 00:37:30.760 a it's a really really malicious form of this, these type of hacking that 480 00:37:30.760 --> 00:37:37.480 that can really damage people. Understood. All right, Well, well one 481 00:37:37.480 --> 00:37:39.880 of one of the things that you said that I want to comment on and 482 00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:45.000 then I'll let She gave me the opportunity. So I took a breath. 483 00:37:45.000 --> 00:37:49.880 It's fine, you took well, you took a breath, and you asked 484 00:37:49.880 --> 00:37:58.559 a question off script. I didn't ask about the book, no, So 485 00:37:58.559 --> 00:38:04.199 so I don't wanted to things and I want to see you brush by something. 486 00:38:05.239 --> 00:38:09.039 And I know one of the things that I teach my students. The 487 00:38:09.039 --> 00:38:15.400 people I work with is that the person with the highest like emotional IQ has 488 00:38:15.440 --> 00:38:23.119 the responsibility for the communication in the situation. And you talked about the appropriate 489 00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:28.840 skill level, and skill level is not necessarily have anything to do with age 490 00:38:29.920 --> 00:38:36.199 or education. It's actually about what is your EQ, what is your IQ? 491 00:38:36.760 --> 00:38:40.800 What is your communication? You know, like, what is your communication 492 00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:46.159 capability? Do you go through things like this in that book? Yes? 493 00:38:46.280 --> 00:38:50.400 And I love that because it's exactly true. I mean, I have worked 494 00:38:50.400 --> 00:38:52.159 with people. I have some people that work with me now here at my 495 00:38:52.199 --> 00:38:59.119 company that have not done anything in the field of human decision making psychology. 496 00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.400 Have a guy that works for me, he was a collections agent. I 497 00:39:02.400 --> 00:39:05.880 have a woman that works for me. She was a sign language interpreter. 498 00:39:05.960 --> 00:39:09.840 Another one that was a hotel accountant, nothing to do with cybersecurity. They're 499 00:39:09.880 --> 00:39:15.159 amazing at this job, right And the fact that what you just said is 500 00:39:15.159 --> 00:39:19.079 just so fascinating to me because it was just what is today Thursday? I 501 00:39:19.079 --> 00:39:22.480 think it was just Tuesday or Monday. I released an article on LinkedIn that 502 00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:27.960 was about someone asked me a question of what is the number one skill that 503 00:39:28.039 --> 00:39:32.480 makes a great professional social engineers? Not a malicious but a professional social engineer. 504 00:39:32.559 --> 00:39:37.199 And I said it was empathy, because if you have empathy, I 505 00:39:37.320 --> 00:39:42.000 can I can understand that what I'm about to do may hurt this target. 506 00:39:42.039 --> 00:39:45.920 So I better use ethical means, I better use kindness. I better treat 507 00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:49.320 them with dignity because I want them to be able to learn and not feel 508 00:39:49.400 --> 00:39:52.599 humiliation and shame and all the negative emotions that can come from being hacked. 509 00:39:52.880 --> 00:39:58.719 So I've got to treat them properly. And an empathetic person makes a wonderful 510 00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:02.599 professional social engineer because they're always thinking about the other person and not about themselves 511 00:40:02.639 --> 00:40:06.800 and the win. So I love that you said that, because that is 512 00:40:06.800 --> 00:40:09.119 one hundred percent true skill can be taught. You can teach. You can 513 00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:14.960 teach communication, profiling and questioning and rapport building. Those things can be taught. 514 00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:17.679 I've been teaching classes for the last fifteen years doing that stuff. Empathy 515 00:40:17.800 --> 00:40:22.280 is really hard to teach. So if someone has that, if they're just 516 00:40:22.320 --> 00:40:30.400 they're going to be a much good a professional at this. Well, you're 517 00:40:30.519 --> 00:40:34.440 you're talking. If you were playing poker, you'd be against two full houses 518 00:40:34.480 --> 00:40:43.239 on this conversation. So yeah, yeah, yeah, that's a double edged 519 00:40:43.239 --> 00:40:47.880 sword as well. But I'll take it. Yes, So go ahead, 520 00:40:47.920 --> 00:40:55.480 Ashley Grilling, Grilling, get him Eric. So I want to talk a 521 00:40:55.519 --> 00:41:00.920 little bit about like body language. I know that it's reference in your books, 522 00:41:00.960 --> 00:41:05.920 so body language and verbal cues, So share a little bit more about 523 00:41:05.920 --> 00:41:09.760 that, please, sure. So when I when I started realizing how important 524 00:41:10.840 --> 00:41:15.599 communication was going to be to my job, right, So when I when 525 00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:20.239 that book came out and people started asking me to consult, there was an 526 00:41:20.280 --> 00:41:22.800 industry around this at the time, right, So there was nobody else doing 527 00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:28.039 this as a professional and doing it solely as a job. So when I 528 00:41:28.119 --> 00:41:30.079 decided, I remember coming home saying to my wife, Hey, I really 529 00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:34.199 I want to start a company that was just social engineering. She's like, 530 00:41:34.239 --> 00:41:37.360 okay, how many people do it and how much do they make? And 531 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.039 I'm like, nobody on Earth does it, so I can't answer question two. 532 00:41:40.960 --> 00:41:44.239 And she said, okay, well you got to. You know, 533 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:45.920 you're going to just quit the job then and start this thing that no one 534 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:47.559 else does. And I'm like, yeah, yeah, what's what I want 535 00:41:47.559 --> 00:41:51.679 to try. So we did that. Right as I started doing this, 536 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:57.039 I started to realize that understanding communication was going to be vital if I was 537 00:41:57.079 --> 00:42:00.480 going to be successful in this. And one of the things that quickly occurred 538 00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:05.599 to me was that what we say is such a little part of actually what 539 00:42:05.639 --> 00:42:10.280 we're actually saying, what we're trying to communicate, our nonverbals have so much 540 00:42:10.320 --> 00:42:14.480 more to do with it. And I kind of learned this from reading a 541 00:42:14.519 --> 00:42:17.920 book from a man named doctor Paul Ekman. The book's name was Emotions Revealed. 542 00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.719 It was a phenomenal book about his research into show expressions and how facial 543 00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:29.079 expressions each emotion and show emotion, and how our emotions are linked to the 544 00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:32.599 type of expression on our face. So I started to read that book, 545 00:42:32.599 --> 00:42:37.119 and then I picked up books by Joe Navarro and books by me Coulting, 546 00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:39.719 and books by all these people that just were experts in nonverbals, and it 547 00:42:39.960 --> 00:42:45.079 opened up a whole world for me. I was fascinated that there was so 548 00:42:45.239 --> 00:42:50.480 much research being done into how our bodies are conveying language. And then I 549 00:42:50.519 --> 00:42:55.480 had the amazing privilege of meeting doctor Ekman and having him be one of my 550 00:42:55.559 --> 00:43:00.719 mentors in my life, and we co wrote a book together that is one 551 00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:06.599 of my social engineering books, about about how malicious social engineers and scammers throughout 552 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:10.880 history have used nonverbals to make the people feel like they're more trusting. But 553 00:43:10.960 --> 00:43:15.679 you know, back to the original question you asked, is I can't express 554 00:43:15.800 --> 00:43:21.119 enough how important it is for two parts of nonverbals, One that you understand 555 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.519 what you're seeing, and that two you understand what you're giving what you're sending. 556 00:43:25.000 --> 00:43:29.880 And I think the sending is even more important than what you're seeing because 557 00:43:30.000 --> 00:43:32.360 one of the things I learned through the years in doing this is and this 558 00:43:32.519 --> 00:43:36.599 this statement is like, I hope if anyone gets into this they remember this. 559 00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:40.199 Just because you can see the what doesn't mean you know the why. 560 00:43:40.760 --> 00:43:44.280 Right, So if you and I were together and I look across the room 561 00:43:44.280 --> 00:43:46.280 and I see you have anger on your face, does not mean I know 562 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:52.519 why you're angry. And there's absolutely no nonverbal on the planet that can tell 563 00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:54.559 me the why. So to get to the why, I have to have 564 00:43:54.639 --> 00:44:00.320 the freedom and the ability to ask questions, to interact with you you to 565 00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:02.760 understand why that emotion was there, and that may not always be appropriate. 566 00:44:02.840 --> 00:44:07.519 So oftentimes when we're learning nonverbals, the mistakes we make is because I can 567 00:44:07.559 --> 00:44:09.719 read them, I must know what you're you know why you're feeling that way, 568 00:44:09.760 --> 00:44:17.119 and that is just not the truth. That's a pretty powerful statement. 569 00:44:17.159 --> 00:44:22.559 I think that that can be applicable in a lot of situations, relationships, 570 00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:28.480 and interactions. That's that's a good one. I like it. And if 571 00:44:28.480 --> 00:44:30.320 you apply that in so many parts of life, it's amazing how well it 572 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:34.920 works, right, And we've tried to you know, my wife and I 573 00:44:35.000 --> 00:44:37.280 have tried to apply it with our kids and raising our kids. And I'll 574 00:44:37.280 --> 00:44:39.159 say, well, not always perfect at it, but you know, sometimes 575 00:44:39.360 --> 00:44:44.159 things happen and you just don't know why it happened, but I can tell 576 00:44:44.199 --> 00:44:47.400 you what happened, and the communication always breaks down when we make the assumption, 577 00:44:49.280 --> 00:44:52.159 well, my daughter did that because she doesn't respect me and my rules, 578 00:44:52.719 --> 00:44:54.440 right, Well, that really the truth that if I say that, 579 00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:59.599 then basically I'm making an accusation, and I'm making an assumption that the only 580 00:44:59.639 --> 00:45:02.320 reason she did that was because she doesn't respect me, Whereas if I ask 581 00:45:02.480 --> 00:45:07.519 questions, I might find out that she had a bad day or somebody at 582 00:45:07.519 --> 00:45:09.599 works, that something mean to her, you know, boy in school treated 583 00:45:09.599 --> 00:45:13.559 her bad or something, and that that wasn't about me even or my house 584 00:45:13.639 --> 00:45:17.159 rules. It was about her feeling bad. So it's the ability to kind 585 00:45:17.159 --> 00:45:22.480 of step away from your own ego and understand that a good form of questions 586 00:45:22.480 --> 00:45:30.519 and communication can stop so many miscommunications. Oh yeah, questions are so much 587 00:45:30.519 --> 00:45:36.079 better than assumptions. Also, because we are a wooh wooh Waco show here 588 00:45:36.239 --> 00:45:43.679 on ome times, I also encourage people to to lean into their intuitives that 589 00:45:43.840 --> 00:45:47.159 the intuitive sometimes can give us clues of what's the good question to ask, 590 00:45:47.280 --> 00:45:53.960 or what's the dialogue that we can put down that may be opening up the 591 00:45:54.440 --> 00:46:00.280 questions now because of the example you used, and I've done a lot of 592 00:46:00.400 --> 00:46:05.679 multi generational work with kids and parents and even three generations in the same room 593 00:46:05.760 --> 00:46:09.719 sometimes trying to sort out through stuff. I have to say though, one 594 00:46:09.719 --> 00:46:15.840 of the questions is, well, if your child disrespects you, how respectful 595 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:22.639 have you been to your child? Yeah, because parents don't get if if 596 00:46:22.679 --> 00:46:28.320 your child sees you being disrespectful to each other or you're disrespectful for them, 597 00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:31.400 they are always going to do what you have role modeled more than what you 598 00:46:31.480 --> 00:46:39.280 say one hundred percent agree and you know, like it's not really a curbble. 599 00:46:39.360 --> 00:46:43.639 I really like what you said about intuition because when I talk about nonverbals, 600 00:46:43.679 --> 00:46:45.800 and I teach on this a lot, and I give speeches on this 601 00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:50.320 topic. And Ashley, I'll ask you this question. Have you ever been 602 00:46:50.360 --> 00:46:53.320 in a room with a group of people and somebody you don't know. That's 603 00:46:53.519 --> 00:46:58.280 usually a guy that you don't know, but he just gave you the creeps? 604 00:46:58.480 --> 00:47:00.880 And you don't know why. He didn't say anything you, you didn't 605 00:47:00.880 --> 00:47:02.719 do anything, you didn't touch you, but he gave you the creeps. 606 00:47:04.639 --> 00:47:07.440 Oh, totally. I had two daughters and I've taught them about the creep 607 00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:09.960 meter. I'm like, honor it, you know, feel it, know 608 00:47:10.079 --> 00:47:15.760 it, honor it, and bring it with you wherever you go because there's 609 00:47:15.800 --> 00:47:20.159 there are creeps around. But yes, I totally get that. And that's 610 00:47:20.239 --> 00:47:27.880 intuition and intuition actually yes, And that is the Point's actually science behind that 611 00:47:27.920 --> 00:47:32.000 intuition, right, is that our nonverbal systems, right, So, our 612 00:47:32.079 --> 00:47:37.360 our five senses are constantly going out into the world and seeking for feedback. 613 00:47:37.880 --> 00:47:42.519 Rights. Our eyes are obviously picking up way more than we than we perceive. 614 00:47:43.239 --> 00:47:46.880 Our other senses smell, our feeling, We're picking up on things that 615 00:47:46.880 --> 00:47:51.559 that we may not even perceive that we're picking up, and all of that 616 00:47:51.760 --> 00:47:54.599 enters into our brain, into the center called the amygdala, and the amigdala 617 00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:00.119 takes all those modalities and the sin stimuli from it and it says, hey, 618 00:48:00.159 --> 00:48:05.480 there's danger here, and it starts to create psychological and physiological processes that 619 00:48:05.599 --> 00:48:07.639 say, hey, there's some danger here. Now. It doesn't like to 620 00:48:07.639 --> 00:48:10.039 tell you what the danger is, because that's not the amigdala's job. The 621 00:48:10.039 --> 00:48:14.159 amigdala's job is do you need fight or flight? Now? Do you need 622 00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:17.039 adrenaline to protect yourself? Do you need to crawl into a ball? Like? 623 00:48:17.119 --> 00:48:20.559 What do you need to do? That's its job, So it doesn't 624 00:48:20.599 --> 00:48:24.039 give you the explanation. It just starts to create that feeling that Okay, 625 00:48:24.119 --> 00:48:29.760 something is not right here. And oftentimes, and I love what you say 626 00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:32.360 to your daughters to trust that and bring that with you. Oftentimes parents don't 627 00:48:32.400 --> 00:48:37.039 do that with their kids. When kids are saying I don't like that person, 628 00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:38.559 well it doesn't matter, come there and give give uncle Joe a hug. 629 00:48:38.960 --> 00:48:43.480 Well, no, if your kid is saying they feel unsafe, okay, 630 00:48:43.519 --> 00:48:45.719 still be respectful, right, You've got to be respectful. But if 631 00:48:45.760 --> 00:48:51.000 you feel unsafe, there's something inside of you, in your nonverbal systems that 632 00:48:51.079 --> 00:48:52.880 is telling you, hey, this is not really a great situation for me. 633 00:48:53.639 --> 00:48:57.599 Respect that, Honor that because you don't know. You don't know what 634 00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:00.119 it is, and it could be something life or death later on. So 635 00:49:00.280 --> 00:49:08.760 definitely respect that. Yeah, and you know, there's also being able to 636 00:49:08.960 --> 00:49:16.800 recognize, and I'm all about the intuitive. You know, I've been a 637 00:49:16.840 --> 00:49:23.239 professional psychic since the nineteen seventies, so I'm all about intuitive, interesting the 638 00:49:23.239 --> 00:49:30.199 psyche. The other thing we also always want to be aware of is sometimes 639 00:49:30.519 --> 00:49:37.239 somebody will look like somebody and they trigger us because of that. And on 640 00:49:37.239 --> 00:49:43.519 one hand it may be ding ding ding. Be aware that this person has 641 00:49:43.559 --> 00:49:51.920 something like the other person, and that in that you will be more intellectually 642 00:49:52.360 --> 00:49:59.280 sharp, You will pay more attention, you will look for the things and 643 00:49:59.360 --> 00:50:04.199 because funny thing that will happen is why'd you figure out what you need to 644 00:50:04.239 --> 00:50:06.199 know about the person? You look at him and go, they don't look 645 00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:09.679 like that person at all. Hmm. Have you ever had that happen? 646 00:50:10.519 --> 00:50:15.000 Yeah, I've had that happen, and I had that happened to me. 647 00:50:15.559 --> 00:50:20.320 I had a woman that my wife was friends with, and I had not 648 00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:22.719 met her before and I came in. I came in the house and she 649 00:50:22.920 --> 00:50:27.599 got like visibly upset angry, and I was like, well, what's going 650 00:50:27.639 --> 00:50:30.960 on. I had no clue what's happening, and ended up after this happened 651 00:50:30.960 --> 00:50:34.639 a few times like where she would physically start shaking and if I was around, 652 00:50:35.199 --> 00:50:37.119 I looked like an ex boyfriend that she had that used to hit her. 653 00:50:38.280 --> 00:50:42.960 So I just looked enough like him that when she saw me, she 654 00:50:43.079 --> 00:50:45.599 just she had a visceral reaction. She was fine with me, she knew 655 00:50:45.639 --> 00:50:49.760 I wasn't that person. It's not like she wanted to hurt me. It's 656 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:54.280 just that my face, my stature reminded her of him, and she just 657 00:50:54.360 --> 00:50:58.960 could not She couldn't handle being near me or around me because it brought out 658 00:50:59.280 --> 00:51:02.239 this fear bons that she had from this previous experience with a guy that looked 659 00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:08.920 just like me. See, so in my world, if she was my 660 00:51:09.039 --> 00:51:13.480 client, I would be like, so this has showed up as a safe 661 00:51:13.599 --> 00:51:17.719 version of an unhealed trauma that we need to work at healing. Yeah, 662 00:51:19.679 --> 00:51:27.800 so you can differentiate between the abuser and people that just look like them, 663 00:51:27.880 --> 00:51:30.880 But as long as people that look like them trigger you you haven't healed the 664 00:51:30.920 --> 00:51:35.840 wood. Yeah, one hundred percent. She was definitely unhealed. Yeah, 665 00:51:35.880 --> 00:51:40.440 And you know, but that moves us back and forth of you know, 666 00:51:40.920 --> 00:51:44.639 we have a lot of information that comes from our conscious. We have a 667 00:51:44.639 --> 00:51:46.840 lot of information that comes from our subconscious. We have a lot of information 668 00:51:46.880 --> 00:51:52.960 that comes from our unconscious. And it's being able to sort the information into 669 00:51:52.000 --> 00:52:00.119 the right baskets before you take action. Yeah, so tell us, Well, 670 00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:05.039 in our about three and a half minutes left, tell us more about 671 00:52:05.079 --> 00:52:09.039 this book. We know we can find it anywhere. I mean, well, 672 00:52:09.079 --> 00:52:12.880 we've been on the radio show. I just walked down to the corner 673 00:52:12.960 --> 00:52:15.199 and boom, it was just sitting there under a street way there. I 674 00:52:15.559 --> 00:52:19.119 was amazed. I mean he said you could find it anywhere, and it 675 00:52:19.159 --> 00:52:22.199 was anywhere. It's amazing. Like, if you open up your drawer right 676 00:52:22.199 --> 00:52:25.719 now, there's one there. I guarantee you. I just ordered my copy 677 00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:32.440 on Amazon's so you're welcome. There's also there's also if you go to human 678 00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:37.639 hackingbook dot com. Once you get the book, I put a website up 679 00:52:37.679 --> 00:52:42.400 all about the book, and I put worksheets things help people go through. 680 00:52:43.199 --> 00:52:45.880 I had this amazing experience with the book because when I when I when I 681 00:52:45.920 --> 00:52:50.719 decided to write it, it was because I had all these wonderful experiences in 682 00:52:50.840 --> 00:52:53.679 using these skills in a very positive way to to like change my life and 683 00:52:53.719 --> 00:52:58.920 change other people's lives. And I started a nonprofit six years ago that that 684 00:52:59.000 --> 00:53:02.280 helps law enforcement track people who traffic children and create child abuse material, and 685 00:53:02.599 --> 00:53:05.880 I got to use these skills in doing that. And I had all these 686 00:53:05.880 --> 00:53:08.840 positive, wonderful experiences in my life. And I had this group of parents 687 00:53:08.840 --> 00:53:13.440 that reached out to me and told me that they bought my book for work, 688 00:53:13.760 --> 00:53:15.719 but then they started using it in their family and they fixed this big 689 00:53:15.760 --> 00:53:20.280 problem they have with their daughter and she was angry, and they use all 690 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.400 the communication skills. And I'm like, I didn't intend that. It wasn't 691 00:53:22.400 --> 00:53:25.119 the reason I wrote it, but I'm amazed that that's how it was used. 692 00:53:25.599 --> 00:53:30.880 So I put all these worksheets up on how to use these skills in 693 00:53:30.920 --> 00:53:34.519 this book for better communications, maybe getting that raise you want, or talking 694 00:53:34.519 --> 00:53:37.159 to your kids about difficult topics, or talking to your house and you're not 695 00:53:37.199 --> 00:53:42.800 getting along. So there's all these different exercises and things that you can do 696 00:53:42.840 --> 00:53:46.400 for each chapter. So if you go to humanpackingbook dot com you can create 697 00:53:46.440 --> 00:53:50.679 a free account. All that stuff's up there for nothing, and you can 698 00:53:50.719 --> 00:53:52.679 you know, once you've got the book, it will make a lot more 699 00:53:52.719 --> 00:53:54.400 sense. And some of the charts and graphs that are in the book, 700 00:53:54.400 --> 00:53:59.119 I have them in printable form there, so if you like to write on 701 00:53:59.239 --> 00:54:01.800 things and print them out and write on it. But it's you know, 702 00:54:01.840 --> 00:54:06.119 I created it kind of as a work book and with the ode to Dale 703 00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:09.920 Carnegie, you know, the win friends influence people. That book is pivotal. 704 00:54:10.000 --> 00:54:13.920 I mean if you that was written like what in the nineteen thirties something 705 00:54:13.920 --> 00:54:16.480 like that, and it's still referenced in use today, that's kind of amazing 706 00:54:16.519 --> 00:54:20.840 to Yeah, yeah, that's amazing to me. So I look at these 707 00:54:20.880 --> 00:54:23.880 skills as something that are timeless. They never as long as humans are going 708 00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:28.199 to be around, we're going to need to know this. So my hope 709 00:54:28.239 --> 00:54:30.840 in this book was to help people use these skills that bad guys have been 710 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:34.960 using since the beginning of human history. But so we can use it to 711 00:54:35.000 --> 00:54:42.800 better our lives and make those around us better too. So two questions. 712 00:54:42.800 --> 00:54:45.079 And we may not have time for them to both be answered because I know 713 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:52.480 we're going to be hitting the ding ding dings. So the first one is 714 00:54:53.760 --> 00:55:05.119 do you have a personal connection to the child traffickings? A personal connection? 715 00:55:06.320 --> 00:55:12.039 Yeah. So in one of my jobs I had, it's going back ten 716 00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:16.320 years. We were doing an audit for a company and I found a guy 717 00:55:16.400 --> 00:55:22.480 inside a company who was flying to the Philippines. He was recording himself molesting 718 00:55:22.519 --> 00:55:25.599 children and then he was trading and selling those recordings on the dark web, 719 00:55:27.480 --> 00:55:30.639 and I called the FBI. We set up a thing operation. That guy 720 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:35.440 will be in prison for one hundred and fifty years. And it was the 721 00:55:35.480 --> 00:55:38.920 first time in my life that I said I have a skill that can do 722 00:55:39.000 --> 00:55:43.360 something that is not just hacking a company like I can actually make a difference 723 00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:45.559 here in the world. And it opened my eyes and I said, I 724 00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:49.480 want to do more of that. I want that in my life. I 725 00:55:49.480 --> 00:55:52.480 want to feel good about my work every day. So it took me a 726 00:55:52.480 --> 00:55:55.480 few years of volunteering at places and learning the ropes, and I started being 727 00:55:55.519 --> 00:56:00.760 a ly Foundation six and a half years ago, and uh, and that's 728 00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:05.639 what we do now. We we help law enforcement stop the trafficking and children 729 00:56:06.800 --> 00:56:10.280 I could tell there was there was something that personally touched you around it. 730 00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:14.480 I could tell by the way you talked about it. Chris, thank you 731 00:56:14.559 --> 00:56:22.880 for coming. Thank you for having me Chris. It was nice to meet 732 00:56:22.920 --> 00:56:24.320 you guys too. It was a really great interview. Thank you so much. 733 00:56:25.480 --> 00:56:31.159 You're welcome. Next week we will be back to planetary influences. Well, 734 00:56:31.239 --> 00:56:37.199 Ashley tells us what's in the skies and Robin Purper right here, Doctor Kevin