We're back with another edition of The Federalist or Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trasnski,
culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the
show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr
LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. I
would also make sure to subscribe to the premium version of the Federalist website over
at the Federalist dot com. We are joined today by Jordan Burke, and
we're going to talk about a new book called The Pope's Exorcist one hundred and
one Questions about Father Gabriel and Morith. Jordan, Welcome to the show.
It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. All right, So,
before we dive into the book, could you tell us a little bit
about your background. You have a pretty interesting biography and sort of career path
that led you to where you are now, So if you could fill us
in a little bit on all of that, that would be great. Sure.
Sure. So, I was a cop for a number of years in
one of the top ten most dangerous cities. I don't know if it's still
on the list. I've been out for a little while, but did that
for a period of time. I started a company where I was teaching firearms
instruction and kind of helping out there, which led into media production and videos,
which led to getting an offer to work for Spiritual Direction dot Com and
the Aval Institute and helping them out with some of their media production. And
then, you know, God kind of takes things in crazy directions. I
fell away from the church, came back to the church. I had to
deal with a lot of my own sin and problems and difficulties, and he
provided a path that allowed me to take what I unlearned and apply that to
others and helped teach that to others. And then of course after that was
done, he said, all right, well I got something new for you.
So since since that time, I've been I joke, I say,
I guess I'm our lead a culture researcher because of all the things that we
have to constantly questions that we constantly have to answer, which is good.
It's all, it's all good stuff, but it's an interesting place to be
in that I would have definitely never expected had you told me, Hey,
you know, in five ten years you're going to be writing on occult stuff
and talking about the pope's exercis stuff. What is such? Its crazy?
But you know, and it's it's becoming so central. And I want to
actually ask you about that because you know, there was a great article in
commentary just this last week on the rise of paganism. My colleague John Daniel
Davidson is working on a book about some of this at the moment right now
too. So could you tell us a little bit about what you mean when
you say, you know you have to answer all of these questions all the
time. You know, you're you're doing research. Is that because in some
ways this has sort risen to the surface or is bubbling to the surface of
our culture and our politics right now. Yeah. Absolutely, I'm not entirely
sure what it is other than I mean, we can blame the obvious.
You know, the enemy is trying all the same old tricks. But yeah,
there's a rise. And whether it's paganism, whether it's outright a coult
activity, whether it's you know, whatever it may be, whatever form it
takes, it is becoming more and more popular. I know there was you've
probably seen this article. It was Columbia. I think it was twenty eight
girls, if I'm remembering correctly, were recently this was like a month ago,
recently hospitalized for playing with an Awegi boarding school. It's like, well,
first of all, how it was not allowing school and secondly, you
know twenty eight and then the hospital was is mean, So I don't know
necessarily what it is. You can look at the Google trends and you can
search some of these things, like any A graham As was kind of dead
for a long time and then it's rear in its head for some reason,
it's becoming more popular, especially in Christian circles. It's just one example,
but even the classic nacissism and other things of that are are all making a
resurgence for some reason. It's so interesting, and obviously this book explores some
similar themes there. So first of all, I think I said the name
I'm morth wrong. Can first of all tell me how to pronounce the name?
You gotta tell this a little bit about about the book, Yeah,
Gabriela morth Or. I've heard some of those who are pure Italians say Gabrielle
amrth. You know, I'm sticking with the American because I don't do accents.
But he was. He was the popest exorcist. He where that title
came from. I'm sure that question will come up, but I'll kind of
try to tackle that now. He I basically have two suspicions, right,
because I've read all of his books, and nowhere in any of his books
doesn't make it clear why he's the quote unquote the popest exorcist. He certainly
never referred to himself as that. But when you talk about the nature of
exorcism and what is involved in what he had to do on a daily basis,
it requires a lot of permissions. Right, So in normative and the
normative function, you have to have permission from bishop in order to perform the
right of a song exorcism. And if you're talking about the number of exorcists
that he did, which we'll get to at some point, I'm sure you
know, I would imagine at some point the Pope said, Okay, I
get it. You don't need to keep asking me, just do what you
need to do. So that's that's one of my suspicions. And then my
other suspicion is that Sophia is being clever and kind of using this to come
back the lies that are coming out of the movie The Pope's Exorcist, So
I, you know, don't quote me on that. They never they never
said that. I'm just kind of making a guess. But yeah, so
I don't know. We can go into his life. We can go where
you know, anything, anything you got, we can we will go there.
Yeah, let's do that, because actually the book starts by kind of
giving this outline sketch of his life of father more life, So tell us,
you know what time period um, kind of how he grows up,
where he grows up, and some of that early background. Yeah, of
course. So he was born May first, nineteen twenty five, and he
actually died in twenty sixteen. So he's a very sent member of a kind
of figure in the church. And what's fascinating is that he didn't necessarily feel
the call for the priesthood until he was about twelve, but he never really
pulled the trigger on that until much later in life. So before he even
went that route, he fought in the resistance in World War Two, or
fought for the resistance in World War Two. This was all in Italy,
and then later he even dabbled in politics, which is fascinating you'll read about
how he helped the Italian the Italian prime minister at the time, drafted their
constitution, which is kind of wild to think about. Worked for a bunch
of different publications. He eventually became ordained at thirty two years old. And
this is this is what I love. So he becomes ordained at thirty two
years old, but he doesn't become an exorcist until he's in his sixties then,
so think sixty to ninety one, right, So then as sixty years
old, in his sixties, his estimation, he performs roughly sixty thousand into
exorcisms. Like that's it's mind blowing the amount of time and effort that he
put into helping people, and you know, at some point setting up to
seventeen people a day. But this was his life, you know, he
after he entered the church, he gave himself completely to the church, whether
it was his writing, whether it was speaking engagements. He was kind of
a popular figure in that sense anyway. But then moving into exorcisms, that's
when he really kind of became the figure that he was. And not even
by his own doing. He was He constantly called himself a good for nothing,
which I think is hilarious. And he was a jokester, but his
focus was his heart was set on there are people who are hurting and we
need to help them, and that is what I've been put here to do,
and that's what I'm going to do. So the way the book is
formatted is there's a lot of like question and an answer, and some really
interesting questions get some really interesting answers, And the book talks about how the
most common form of demonic possession is what Father mooreth referred to as the quote
evil spell. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is?
Yeah, you know, this is this blew my mind. So I
talked to exorcists quite often, and this is actually the first time I've ever
heard this, and so he fathered morth As you said. In the book,
he talks about, well, what's the most common form of someone getting
possessed? Possessed? And he says it's basically someone putting a curse on somebody
else. And then he even goes and tells a story about a I believe
it was a mother in law who had a daughter in law that she was
jealous of or something was going on there, and so she cursed the Thanksgiving
I think it was the gravy, Is that correct? It sounds like you've
read it, so it's one of those things. She cursed something in cursed
something in the meal, which caused a possession of the daughter in law,
which is rather rather wild to think about, but he says, you know,
most commonly this is what happens. And then unfortunately, it's almost always
somebody who's in the family, So it's not necessarily somebody who like you're walking
past someone on the street and they put a curse on you. It seems
to be that in most cases, at least according to Father Morth, that
it's somebody within your own family who is causing the problems. And of course,
I mean Father Ripper has talked about this. If you have some sort
of vexation or oppression going on in the house and then you find out that
you know, your mother in law who lives in the mother in law suite
and the bottom floor of the house is playing with Wuiji boards and tarot cards,
and that's the cause of the problem. So that familial aspect, I
think is really important to note. So people don't hear this and think,
oh crap, I'm going to get you know, cursed just walking down the
street, right, And I want to pause on the question actually, or
I want to come back to the question of Wiji boards and tarot cards,
because super super popular right now, as I'm sure you've encountered every day probably
yeah, since you've been working on these issues. But if we could,
maybe, since I'm Lutheran, to ask some of the basic questions about how
Catholics or let's just say, the Catholic tradition of exercise for sure, where's
that substantiated, how does it work? And what's the basic kind of approach
I guess that you know makes it such an important element of the faith.
Yeah, so that's that's a fantastic question. So he further more, the
rights in the book, and this may be obvious to some regardless of religious
affiliation, But the first exorcist was of course Jesus, right, you know,
you're reading the Gospels and he was casting out demons lifting right now,
you also read about false exorcists in the Gospels, so you look at there
was I can't recall their names. They may actually have just been referred to
as the Jewish Jewish exorcists, And so maybe and I'll back up. Maybe
my attribution of false is not entirely accurate, but what do you hear?
Right, So you read the story and you have these Jewish exorcists who have
apparently done exorcism in the past. We don't really know, but that's the
that's the title that they claim. They go into a case of possession and
they say, you know, in the name of Jesus, in the name
of Paul, we cast you out, and the demon literally replies to them
and says, Jesus, I know, Paul, I know, but who
are you? And the demon beats them up and they leave, stripped of
their clothes. And so when you read that, you can understand that it
denotes authority structure. So it's you have to ask a question, Okay,
well, why are they responding to those names? But they're not responding to
these people who are invoking these names, right, And so this is like
a super deep theological conversation. But it's it's important to provide context right to
the following. So what the Catholic Church then does is understanding that there's authority
structure that's laid out not just in that example, but in other examples in
the Gospels and then through apostolic succession. They basically have said, Okay,
this is what we have determined based on the writings of their early church fathers,
based on what we can look back on in scripture, based on all
these other different things, the teachings, and you know, you go back
to writing stuff like Saint John Christendom and all these guys who walked with the
disciples. Although don't quote me on Christentom. I don't. I don't know
his timeline. I'm not a historian, so there's a caveat there, not
a historian. But basically, these these guys who walked with the disciples and
passed the information down and then formulated this office. And there's it's it's fascinating,
you asked us, because this is something that I've been diving into recently
as to where this office initially came from. Because you read, while everyone
has gifts of the Holy Spirit, you know, so why is there a
limitations on who can and cannot cast out and these certain things? And it
goes to natural law and understanding of natural law and philosophy and authority and that
appstock succession and office and all these other different things. Point is because that
makes for really boring radio. Point is they've they've taken this information from history
and set up this office and in a lot of bringing it back to father
more experience. You know, he founded the IE, the Internet Association of
Exorcists, and he even said, you know, classes are worthless learning exorcism.
You have to be a hands on It has to be a hands on
job. You have to experience a firsthand. But taking that experience and understanding,
okay, this is how we can help people. And this is how
we can help people with also without facing retaliation or getting hurt ourselves, because
that, unfortunately does happen when people kind of step out of the roles of
authority. So I don't know if that answered your question, then I apologize
to anyone if that made it a little bit more boring. But context is
important, so no, I think it's really helpful. The Watchdog Wall Street
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Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And when we turned back specifically to
father, you know, how many exorcisms did he do? Why is he
how does he end up as specifically the Pope's exorcist? And how what is
it about him that draws so much acclaim? Why is he particularly so good
at what he does? Yeah, so, as I mentioned, he you
know, he performed to his estimation upwards of sixty thousand exorcisms, and that
is a wild number, but it can again with context being important. He
notes that in some serious cases he would see one person that minimum of fifty
times, so that kind of puts that number into a little bit more perspective.
Although regardless, that's still sixty thousand individual you know, moments of performing
the solemn rite of exorcism. But he what's fascinating is he did so many
of them that he had the entire memorize. So there's a you know,
there's a book, it's the right and of these particular prayers of the priest
can say, and he had it all completely memorized. He didn't have to
use the book. And what's interesting is when he was getting older, those
who assisted with him, whether through ancessory prayer or the psychologists or any of
these other different people, they know they can kind of know like, okay,
he's he might be coming to his time, because he ended up having
to start using the book again. So that's you know, that's the number
that he performed. And I also think, as a side note, it's
important to note, as you mentioned earlier, in America, we're dealing with
a lot of the rise of the occult, especially during Father Moore's time.
The occulton was rampant in Italy and in Rome, where people primarily or terror
card readers, you know, wuiji boards, palm reading, things of that
nature. So it was really the area was kind of ripe for that kind
of necessity, needing somebody to help people who are becoming oppressed by demons because
of engaging in these activities. But as I and as I mentioned before the
post exercist thing. It's it's it's the best guests, you know. I
think I think you know, it's instead of going to the Pope and saying,
hey, listen, I need permission to do this every day, seventeen
times a day, because I believe it was yeah, up boards of seventeen
people a day at one point, UM, they just kind of said,
yeah, do what you need to do. Uh, you know, if
you need a piphany water, you can make him whatever you need to make
it, rather than just on the feast of the piphany x y Z.
And he just kind of went from there amazing. And as you've looked back
and reflected on some of his works, I know he wrote about all of
this. Um, is there anything you think stands out about him? Or
is there something that he brought that that really made him unique or even just
at the time, um, in terms of performing so many of these what
is it that gives him you know, maybe the special gift obviously at the
then divine intervention. Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think
there's really two things that come to mind. First, I think is his
sense of humor. And he had no sensationalism about him at all. When
he talks, you read any of his books, everything is just a matter
of fact. So this is the reality, you know, this is what
happens, this is what we're dealing with. Here's an example, this is
bad, this is good, and a sense of humor about it as all
as well, So it doesn't come off as a textbook. You know,
it's interesting to read. But in the combination of having no sensationalism, where
we're not experiencing you know, this Hollywood nonsense of you know, the absolute
worst case scenarios or things that may not actually happen. It's just it's just
a matter of fact. But the second thing is I think that he really
had a heart for those who were in need. I mean, he was
so he was so what's the word I'm trying to think of. He was
so radical about it in a way where he had at once said that bishops
who are not appointing exorcists are in mortal scent, which is kind of wild
to go out there on a limb and say that, because you're going to
make enemies pretty quick. But he said, and he said of bowling.
He said it many times because he recognized there are people who you know,
this is an office of the church, and there are people who need this
service and they're not being served because bishops are not appointing them. And if
that's the case, then that bishops in mortal scent. And so whether or
not that's the reality, I can't say. I'm not a theologian, but
it shows that his heart was set on serving those who are really, really
in need. And back onto this question of whether this is something that we're
seeing again right now. Obviously this is going to be a pattern throughout history,
but you know, it strikes me that some of the way, as
I was reading the book, Father and morth Is coming to these issues,
are looking at these issues, it just reminds me a little bit of the
screw tape letters, which are not totally from a different time period, but
very much a reaction to these at the time high tech world wars. And
I'm wondering if when you look at, you know, the sort of rise
of occult in Italy at that time, or the popularity of the occult in
Italy and that time, if there's also something a parallel to where we are
right now, and that you do have some people turning towards Orthodox Catholicism as
an answer to some of these very deep, enduring, painful questions. But
then you also do have some people turning Nuiji boards and tarot cards and horoscopes,
etc. Etc. So as you look back on sort of the era
in which he's presiding over so so many exorcisms, do see anything similar today?
Oh? Yeah, one, I couldn't agree more. I think you
nailed up with The Screwtape Letters, which is top ten favorite books of mine,
and I highly recommend anyone go and read it. It's it's phenomenal and
gives What's interesting is that you know, this is a total side note real
quick, but you touch on something I love here. So C. S.
Lewis obviously was not Catholic, but everything that he talked about in there
is so theologically sound to what we understand. It's it's pretty stunning, to
the point where you know, at the Avalanchtitute we use that book as one
of the textbooks and a couple of our at least two of our courses.
So it's highly recommend it. But to your question, yeah, I think
I think you're totally annailing it. I think that there are people, let's
put it those way, It's important to remember that people who are going into
dabbling with these things, nine times out of ten are searching for something more.
And usually they're searching for something more because they are wounded in some way,
whether or not they realize it, whether or not is conscious or subconscious.
They're yearning for something to solve whatever pain that they're experiencing. You know,
it's the age old story of you have a relative that dies, passes,
and so you just want to connect with them again, so you go
to you know, a medium, Hey, can you put me in contact
with them? Not thinking about the potential implications of the reality of the spiritual
world that you know exists around us, or the Luigi board is another version
of that. Or you know, you're anxious and you want to know what
the heck is going on in your life and what's going to happen next.
Am I going to get that job? Am I going to get that house?
Am I going to you know? X y Z? So you're going
to go to a tarot card reader or a medium again, right again,
not taking into account the realities of the implications of what that means and the
possibilities out there. I mean, even the indiogram I'm working on. I
put out a ton of information on that recently and I'm working on some text
on that, and it's similar. It's people want to understand who you know,
who they are. It's marketed as a personality test, but then you
go into the actual history of it and it turns out, well, it
was never intended as a personality test, and the guys who created it were
deeply involved in witchcraft and occultism and all these different things. And to the
point where it's studying, you know that that people can kind of it's I
don't want to degrade anybody, and I don't want to say that it's stunning
that people can fall for it, But I think we live in a time
where we just take everything kind of at face value and we don't necessarily do
our research, and we think, okay, well this is good enough.
But when you start doing your research, you know, a whole lot of
stuff comes up and it's it's troubling. So yeah, I don't know,
maybe a curse of our times that's a race. Is exactly what I wanted
to talk about next, which is, you know, when we talk about
WEGI boards, when we talk about tarot cards or horoscopes or naograms. It
seems I think, especially in uh, you know, the digital society,
where things are kind of morphous and it's it's harder for things to feel real.
People just assume that it's kind of a choke. Um. Weaji boards
are a great example, and ever since they were invented, um, it's
been easy for people to sort of say, well, what's the big deal.
So my question you would be, you know, what is the big
deal? What should people realize when they dabble in these things that our culture
has come to accept as harmless or fun or natural in some way? What
should people be aware of? Right? So I'll approach this in a language
or an understanding of basically that those who are listening are are hopefully believing God
in some way, right. So I'm not necessarily speaking to the atheists,
although they may find this interesting. But regardless, uh, you know,
if we understand that there is a god, right, then we also understand
hopefully that there is an enemy. And when you start studying demonology, one
of the first things that you realize is that demons are very, very,
very legalistic. And what that means is, regardless of our individual intentions going
into particular activities, if that is and if that is something that was influenced
by, or is led by, or if the activity I mean is influenced
by, or led by, or even created by in some cases the influence
of demons. You're entering into their realm. And it's kind of like,
what's a good I'm trying to think of a good analogy here. You're you're
walking into somebody else's house, and it's like, wow, you know,
I don't have an intent to get hurt, but you're in their house,
you know, and they're going to do whatever they want to you while you're
in their house. That's that's the legalism that we're dealing with. So you
know, the idea that well, you know, I'm you know, the
Luigi Board's fun and I'm not gonna you know, nothing is going to happen.
It's silly, you know, it's it's I wish that that was the
case, but unfortunately that's not the reality that we live in. And again
that's that's taken by as I mentioned, those those young women who in Columbia
who were taken to the hospital, which interestingly enough, that isn't the first
case there they had another case a few months earlier of girls who had the
same instance, and something that can help if people are still kind of on
the fence about it, just look up and ask people for testimonies of what
they've experienced. I don't think I've ever with a very rare exception, and
I think in those rare exceptions were just God's divine mercy. But people playing
with Uiji boards generally have some negative and seriously negative experience afterwards. Tarot cards
sometimes similar. You know, it just depends on the thing again, the
level of activity. But also we got to keep in mind that wild demons
are both legalistic. As you mentioned the screwtape letters. C. S.
Lewis writes brilliantly that they would prefer that you believe that they didn't exist.
Right. It's not that they're going to come out and scare you in the
middle of the night. It's more of this slow game, the slow you
know, drawing you away from the truth whatever is good, right, Holly,
those sorts of things, slowly making you believe, oh, you know
what, this terrior thing turned out really well, maybe I should go again.
Okay, Now the clause a little bit deeper and it's a little bit
deeper and the next thing, you know, you go into you know,
some form of gnosticism. You've seen I've seen this many times with those who
I don't want to name names, but there's particular teachers out there who,
you know, kind of bring up these kind of gnostic ideas and to a
t everyone who follows them ends up going off the rails at some point and
diving into crazy stuff. And it's such a strange phenomenon. But you know,
the data doesn't lie. Yeah, no, it's it's so interesting and
prevalent right now. People need to be aware of all that. It's not
something our culture makes them aware of, but right I also I wanted to
ask about the movie because you mentioned, you know, the book maybe in
some part intended to address audiences that are pulled in one direction by the movie.
So I just want to ask about expectations when it comes to that,
you know, what indications are there of the depiction. Yeah, this is
purely my my review. That doesn't reflect Sophia or anybody else. That's my
disclaimer. I'm not going to see it, and I'll tell you why.
I've read some reviews and some of the reviews. They as I kind of
suspected Hollywood is going to do what Hollywood does. And there are some things
depicted in the movie that Father Morth does that are patent patently false, outright
lies. But that aside. You know, I'm not into glorifying, which
sounds funny, because this is what I do for a living, right,
and I study. I study this stuff, but I'm not into glorifying any
of it. Right. My goal is to provide the reality so people can
navigate this pathway, these waters what's real and what isn't. But you know,
Hollywood makes these things so unreal, and they add this sense of fear
and the sensationalism that only causes harm. It's important to note that when you
study these sorts of things, you discover that one of the primary ways that
demons kind of that can tempt or oppress some people called vexation, So oppression
vexation is kind of similar, is through the memory. You know, So
the things that you put in ultimately are going to feed either the good or
the bad, right, which makes sense on its face anyway. The same
thing with food, right, if you eat chunk and I have chunk results,
you know, same thing with media though, So if you're listening to
good things, if you're consuming good things, you're going to have good results.
I wish I could tell you how many people have told me, Yeah,
when I stopped listening to you know, these these scary shows and watch
these scary videos on YouTube and these scary movies, all my fear and anxiety
vanished. It's like, well, yeah, because you're not you're not consuming
it. And also on the spiritual level, you're not giving the enemy anything
to message with, you know, your mind with. So that's why I'm
not going to see it. And I just don't. I don't have any
desire to to give money to an industry that continues to lie and cause issues.
So yeah, no. Anda morphe is played by Russell Crowe in the
movie right right, right, So it's definitely a high profile making a sort
of splashy, high profile entrance into a film world this year. On that
note, though, I guess my last question is about the I guess tension
maybe that you just talked about, where on the one hand, it's so
important for people to see things like Buiji boards and Tarot cards for the darkness
that they represent. On the other hand, the intrigue that our culture promotes
surrounding that darkness is dangerous. How should we think about that balance between you
know, wanting to take this really seriously, but then when it's taken seriously
in a sense that's maybe overly sensational or almost pornographic. Is that balance?
Yeah, that's a brilliant question. And this is something that I've been struggling
with trying to figure out how to scribe since I started this, because,
as you said, there's a disordered curiosity, this curiosity toss that can lead
people astray where you think, okay, yeah, it's good to research these
things, but then you know, what does it become? Does it become
an obsession? Does it cause discord, disharmony, strife, things of that
nature. Generally, I just tell people like, look, you do need
to understand it, right, you need to understand it, But how deeply
do you need to understand it? What is your calling in life? What's
your vocation? And how does this affect your vocation ultimately as a father,
as a mother, or whatever the case may be, wherever you are in
your workplace, as a friend, as a brother, as a sister.
So praying about it and just saying like, Okay, what do I really
need to know? Liken, God, can you give me like a stop
block if I'm reading certain things, if if I'm realizing, ah, you
know what, I'm going a little bit too deep. Maybe I don't need
to go this deep. Like what I know is enough versus someone who might
be called to do something like I'm doing, which I truthfully I wish there
was more people because there's just there's just so much misinformation out there and there's
not enough people in my opinion, who are who are diving in, who
are properly called and properly equipped I should say, to dive into this sort
of a thing. But in terms of that, I mean, there's there's
good text out there, like this book is prime example of a perfect text
for somebody to read. If they want to understand the reality of what's going
on, they can read this. There's no sensationalism, there's nothing that's going
to take you into a rabbit hole unless you go there yourself. It's just
straightforward, very as you mentioned, questions and answers. It's very I think
I read it in like less than an hour. It's it's not a huge
book, but even all his other books are also very similar. So things
of that nature are what I would call quote unquote safe, but again that
that quote unquote safe safety level is kind of dependent on the person's call and
their spiritual maturity and things for that nature. Jordan Burke, thank you so
much for taking the time to talk to us about the Pope's Exorcist today.
Yeah, this is great. Thank you so much for having me. Of
course, you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm
Emily Rasnski, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with
more. Until then, the lovers are freedom and anxious for the fray.
I heard the fame by the reason, and then it faded away.