1 00:00:17,120 --> 00:00:20,920 We're back with another edition of The Federalist or Radio Hour. I'm Emily Trasnski, 2 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,480 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the 3 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:27,199 show at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr 4 00:00:27,519 --> 00:00:33,359 LST. Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts as well. I 5 00:00:33,399 --> 00:00:37,439 would also make sure to subscribe to the premium version of the Federalist website over 6 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:43,119 at the Federalist dot com. We are joined today by Jordan Burke, and 7 00:00:43,119 --> 00:00:46,719 we're going to talk about a new book called The Pope's Exorcist one hundred and 8 00:00:46,719 --> 00:00:51,240 one Questions about Father Gabriel and Morith. Jordan, Welcome to the show. 9 00:00:51,640 --> 00:00:53,920 It's good to be here. Thanks for having me. All right, So, 10 00:00:53,960 --> 00:00:56,000 before we dive into the book, could you tell us a little bit 11 00:00:56,039 --> 00:01:00,560 about your background. You have a pretty interesting biography and sort of career path 12 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:02,799 that led you to where you are now, So if you could fill us 13 00:01:02,799 --> 00:01:04,680 in a little bit on all of that, that would be great. Sure. 14 00:01:04,799 --> 00:01:07,719 Sure. So, I was a cop for a number of years in 15 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,439 one of the top ten most dangerous cities. I don't know if it's still 16 00:01:11,439 --> 00:01:14,519 on the list. I've been out for a little while, but did that 17 00:01:14,599 --> 00:01:18,640 for a period of time. I started a company where I was teaching firearms 18 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,920 instruction and kind of helping out there, which led into media production and videos, 19 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:26,319 which led to getting an offer to work for Spiritual Direction dot Com and 20 00:01:26,400 --> 00:01:30,560 the Aval Institute and helping them out with some of their media production. And 21 00:01:30,599 --> 00:01:34,239 then, you know, God kind of takes things in crazy directions. I 22 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:38,040 fell away from the church, came back to the church. I had to 23 00:01:38,079 --> 00:01:42,680 deal with a lot of my own sin and problems and difficulties, and he 24 00:01:44,439 --> 00:01:48,519 provided a path that allowed me to take what I unlearned and apply that to 25 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:52,799 others and helped teach that to others. And then of course after that was 26 00:01:52,840 --> 00:01:53,760 done, he said, all right, well I got something new for you. 27 00:01:53,840 --> 00:02:00,400 So since since that time, I've been I joke, I say, 28 00:02:00,439 --> 00:02:05,159 I guess I'm our lead a culture researcher because of all the things that we 29 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:08,400 have to constantly questions that we constantly have to answer, which is good. 30 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,840 It's all, it's all good stuff, but it's an interesting place to be 31 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:15,120 in that I would have definitely never expected had you told me, Hey, 32 00:02:15,120 --> 00:02:17,599 you know, in five ten years you're going to be writing on occult stuff 33 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:21,280 and talking about the pope's exercis stuff. What is such? Its crazy? 34 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:25,360 But you know, and it's it's becoming so central. And I want to 35 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:30,199 actually ask you about that because you know, there was a great article in 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,560 commentary just this last week on the rise of paganism. My colleague John Daniel 37 00:02:35,599 --> 00:02:38,680 Davidson is working on a book about some of this at the moment right now 38 00:02:38,719 --> 00:02:42,159 too. So could you tell us a little bit about what you mean when 39 00:02:42,159 --> 00:02:44,719 you say, you know you have to answer all of these questions all the 40 00:02:44,759 --> 00:02:47,120 time. You know, you're you're doing research. Is that because in some 41 00:02:47,159 --> 00:02:53,199 ways this has sort risen to the surface or is bubbling to the surface of 42 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:57,319 our culture and our politics right now. Yeah. Absolutely, I'm not entirely 43 00:02:57,360 --> 00:03:00,000 sure what it is other than I mean, we can blame the obvious. 44 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,560 You know, the enemy is trying all the same old tricks. But yeah, 45 00:03:02,599 --> 00:03:07,240 there's a rise. And whether it's paganism, whether it's outright a coult 46 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:10,680 activity, whether it's you know, whatever it may be, whatever form it 47 00:03:10,759 --> 00:03:15,840 takes, it is becoming more and more popular. I know there was you've 48 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:20,280 probably seen this article. It was Columbia. I think it was twenty eight 49 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,879 girls, if I'm remembering correctly, were recently this was like a month ago, 50 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:28,520 recently hospitalized for playing with an Awegi boarding school. It's like, well, 51 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,439 first of all, how it was not allowing school and secondly, you 52 00:03:31,479 --> 00:03:37,280 know twenty eight and then the hospital was is mean, So I don't know 53 00:03:37,479 --> 00:03:38,840 necessarily what it is. You can look at the Google trends and you can 54 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:43,800 search some of these things, like any A graham As was kind of dead 55 00:03:43,840 --> 00:03:46,599 for a long time and then it's rear in its head for some reason, 56 00:03:46,639 --> 00:03:50,000 it's becoming more popular, especially in Christian circles. It's just one example, 57 00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:54,120 but even the classic nacissism and other things of that are are all making a 58 00:03:54,159 --> 00:04:00,280 resurgence for some reason. It's so interesting, and obviously this book explores some 59 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,599 similar themes there. So first of all, I think I said the name 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:08,199 I'm morth wrong. Can first of all tell me how to pronounce the name? 61 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,599 You gotta tell this a little bit about about the book, Yeah, 62 00:04:11,639 --> 00:04:15,279 Gabriela morth Or. I've heard some of those who are pure Italians say Gabrielle 63 00:04:15,279 --> 00:04:18,800 amrth. You know, I'm sticking with the American because I don't do accents. 64 00:04:19,519 --> 00:04:24,399 But he was. He was the popest exorcist. He where that title 65 00:04:24,439 --> 00:04:27,000 came from. I'm sure that question will come up, but I'll kind of 66 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:30,720 try to tackle that now. He I basically have two suspicions, right, 67 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:33,680 because I've read all of his books, and nowhere in any of his books 68 00:04:33,759 --> 00:04:38,000 doesn't make it clear why he's the quote unquote the popest exorcist. He certainly 69 00:04:38,000 --> 00:04:43,439 never referred to himself as that. But when you talk about the nature of 70 00:04:43,519 --> 00:04:46,680 exorcism and what is involved in what he had to do on a daily basis, 71 00:04:47,079 --> 00:04:51,480 it requires a lot of permissions. Right, So in normative and the 72 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:56,000 normative function, you have to have permission from bishop in order to perform the 73 00:04:56,079 --> 00:05:00,000 right of a song exorcism. And if you're talking about the number of exorcists 74 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,560 that he did, which we'll get to at some point, I'm sure you 75 00:05:02,600 --> 00:05:05,399 know, I would imagine at some point the Pope said, Okay, I 76 00:05:05,519 --> 00:05:09,600 get it. You don't need to keep asking me, just do what you 77 00:05:09,639 --> 00:05:13,759 need to do. So that's that's one of my suspicions. And then my 78 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:18,879 other suspicion is that Sophia is being clever and kind of using this to come 79 00:05:18,879 --> 00:05:24,240 back the lies that are coming out of the movie The Pope's Exorcist, So 80 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:26,800 I, you know, don't quote me on that. They never they never 81 00:05:26,879 --> 00:05:30,279 said that. I'm just kind of making a guess. But yeah, so 82 00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,399 I don't know. We can go into his life. We can go where 83 00:05:33,439 --> 00:05:36,079 you know, anything, anything you got, we can we will go there. 84 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,800 Yeah, let's do that, because actually the book starts by kind of 85 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:44,959 giving this outline sketch of his life of father more life, So tell us, 86 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:48,079 you know what time period um, kind of how he grows up, 87 00:05:48,439 --> 00:05:51,759 where he grows up, and some of that early background. Yeah, of 88 00:05:51,759 --> 00:05:57,519 course. So he was born May first, nineteen twenty five, and he 89 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:01,240 actually died in twenty sixteen. So he's a very sent member of a kind 90 00:06:01,240 --> 00:06:05,639 of figure in the church. And what's fascinating is that he didn't necessarily feel 91 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:11,879 the call for the priesthood until he was about twelve, but he never really 92 00:06:11,920 --> 00:06:15,600 pulled the trigger on that until much later in life. So before he even 93 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:18,519 went that route, he fought in the resistance in World War Two, or 94 00:06:18,560 --> 00:06:21,639 fought for the resistance in World War Two. This was all in Italy, 95 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:27,000 and then later he even dabbled in politics, which is fascinating you'll read about 96 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,600 how he helped the Italian the Italian prime minister at the time, drafted their 97 00:06:30,639 --> 00:06:34,439 constitution, which is kind of wild to think about. Worked for a bunch 98 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:40,800 of different publications. He eventually became ordained at thirty two years old. And 99 00:06:41,399 --> 00:06:44,759 this is this is what I love. So he becomes ordained at thirty two 100 00:06:44,839 --> 00:06:49,279 years old, but he doesn't become an exorcist until he's in his sixties then, 101 00:06:49,439 --> 00:06:55,319 so think sixty to ninety one, right, So then as sixty years 102 00:06:55,319 --> 00:07:00,240 old, in his sixties, his estimation, he performs roughly sixty thousand into 103 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,279 exorcisms. Like that's it's mind blowing the amount of time and effort that he 104 00:07:04,319 --> 00:07:08,639 put into helping people, and you know, at some point setting up to 105 00:07:08,639 --> 00:07:11,399 seventeen people a day. But this was his life, you know, he 106 00:07:12,639 --> 00:07:15,720 after he entered the church, he gave himself completely to the church, whether 107 00:07:15,759 --> 00:07:18,360 it was his writing, whether it was speaking engagements. He was kind of 108 00:07:18,399 --> 00:07:23,759 a popular figure in that sense anyway. But then moving into exorcisms, that's 109 00:07:23,800 --> 00:07:27,560 when he really kind of became the figure that he was. And not even 110 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,439 by his own doing. He was He constantly called himself a good for nothing, 111 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,040 which I think is hilarious. And he was a jokester, but his 112 00:07:34,319 --> 00:07:39,639 focus was his heart was set on there are people who are hurting and we 113 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:42,240 need to help them, and that is what I've been put here to do, 114 00:07:42,319 --> 00:07:46,319 and that's what I'm going to do. So the way the book is 115 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,839 formatted is there's a lot of like question and an answer, and some really 116 00:07:49,879 --> 00:07:55,560 interesting questions get some really interesting answers, And the book talks about how the 117 00:07:55,560 --> 00:08:00,680 most common form of demonic possession is what Father mooreth referred to as the quote 118 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,680 evil spell. Can you tell us a little bit more about what that is? 119 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,240 Yeah, you know, this is this blew my mind. So I 120 00:08:07,439 --> 00:08:11,759 talked to exorcists quite often, and this is actually the first time I've ever 121 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,600 heard this, and so he fathered morth As you said. In the book, 122 00:08:15,639 --> 00:08:18,000 he talks about, well, what's the most common form of someone getting 123 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,199 possessed? Possessed? And he says it's basically someone putting a curse on somebody 124 00:08:22,199 --> 00:08:26,279 else. And then he even goes and tells a story about a I believe 125 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:31,240 it was a mother in law who had a daughter in law that she was 126 00:08:31,439 --> 00:08:35,639 jealous of or something was going on there, and so she cursed the Thanksgiving 127 00:08:35,919 --> 00:08:39,120 I think it was the gravy, Is that correct? It sounds like you've 128 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:41,840 read it, so it's one of those things. She cursed something in cursed 129 00:08:41,919 --> 00:08:46,879 something in the meal, which caused a possession of the daughter in law, 130 00:08:46,399 --> 00:08:52,240 which is rather rather wild to think about, but he says, you know, 131 00:08:52,559 --> 00:08:56,279 most commonly this is what happens. And then unfortunately, it's almost always 132 00:08:56,279 --> 00:09:00,879 somebody who's in the family, So it's not necessarily somebody who like you're walking 133 00:09:00,919 --> 00:09:03,679 past someone on the street and they put a curse on you. It seems 134 00:09:03,720 --> 00:09:07,799 to be that in most cases, at least according to Father Morth, that 135 00:09:07,919 --> 00:09:11,679 it's somebody within your own family who is causing the problems. And of course, 136 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:15,320 I mean Father Ripper has talked about this. If you have some sort 137 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,840 of vexation or oppression going on in the house and then you find out that 138 00:09:18,919 --> 00:09:22,200 you know, your mother in law who lives in the mother in law suite 139 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,440 and the bottom floor of the house is playing with Wuiji boards and tarot cards, 140 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,639 and that's the cause of the problem. So that familial aspect, I 141 00:09:28,679 --> 00:09:31,519 think is really important to note. So people don't hear this and think, 142 00:09:31,519 --> 00:09:35,320 oh crap, I'm going to get you know, cursed just walking down the 143 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:39,600 street, right, And I want to pause on the question actually, or 144 00:09:39,639 --> 00:09:41,000 I want to come back to the question of Wiji boards and tarot cards, 145 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,279 because super super popular right now, as I'm sure you've encountered every day probably 146 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:50,399 yeah, since you've been working on these issues. But if we could, 147 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:56,480 maybe, since I'm Lutheran, to ask some of the basic questions about how 148 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:01,960 Catholics or let's just say, the Catholic tradition of exercise for sure, where's 149 00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,720 that substantiated, how does it work? And what's the basic kind of approach 150 00:10:05,840 --> 00:10:09,799 I guess that you know makes it such an important element of the faith. 151 00:10:09,320 --> 00:10:13,000 Yeah, so that's that's a fantastic question. So he further more, the 152 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:16,519 rights in the book, and this may be obvious to some regardless of religious 153 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,759 affiliation, But the first exorcist was of course Jesus, right, you know, 154 00:10:20,799 --> 00:10:24,000 you're reading the Gospels and he was casting out demons lifting right now, 155 00:10:24,279 --> 00:10:30,919 you also read about false exorcists in the Gospels, so you look at there 156 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,320 was I can't recall their names. They may actually have just been referred to 157 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:37,879 as the Jewish Jewish exorcists, And so maybe and I'll back up. Maybe 158 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:43,279 my attribution of false is not entirely accurate, but what do you hear? 159 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,200 Right, So you read the story and you have these Jewish exorcists who have 160 00:10:48,279 --> 00:10:50,000 apparently done exorcism in the past. We don't really know, but that's the 161 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:56,519 that's the title that they claim. They go into a case of possession and 162 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:58,960 they say, you know, in the name of Jesus, in the name 163 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,679 of Paul, we cast you out, and the demon literally replies to them 164 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,639 and says, Jesus, I know, Paul, I know, but who 165 00:11:05,639 --> 00:11:09,480 are you? And the demon beats them up and they leave, stripped of 166 00:11:09,519 --> 00:11:13,799 their clothes. And so when you read that, you can understand that it 167 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:20,200 denotes authority structure. So it's you have to ask a question, Okay, 168 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,519 well, why are they responding to those names? But they're not responding to 169 00:11:24,639 --> 00:11:26,440 these people who are invoking these names, right, And so this is like 170 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:33,000 a super deep theological conversation. But it's it's important to provide context right to 171 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:39,039 the following. So what the Catholic Church then does is understanding that there's authority 172 00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:41,000 structure that's laid out not just in that example, but in other examples in 173 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:46,879 the Gospels and then through apostolic succession. They basically have said, Okay, 174 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,399 this is what we have determined based on the writings of their early church fathers, 175 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,480 based on what we can look back on in scripture, based on all 176 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:56,240 these other different things, the teachings, and you know, you go back 177 00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,679 to writing stuff like Saint John Christendom and all these guys who walked with the 178 00:12:00,759 --> 00:12:03,399 disciples. Although don't quote me on Christentom. I don't. I don't know 179 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:09,120 his timeline. I'm not a historian, so there's a caveat there, not 180 00:12:09,159 --> 00:12:11,919 a historian. But basically, these these guys who walked with the disciples and 181 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:18,799 passed the information down and then formulated this office. And there's it's it's fascinating, 182 00:12:18,799 --> 00:12:20,320 you asked us, because this is something that I've been diving into recently 183 00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:24,480 as to where this office initially came from. Because you read, while everyone 184 00:12:24,519 --> 00:12:28,639 has gifts of the Holy Spirit, you know, so why is there a 185 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:33,840 limitations on who can and cannot cast out and these certain things? And it 186 00:12:33,840 --> 00:12:39,240 goes to natural law and understanding of natural law and philosophy and authority and that 187 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:43,120 appstock succession and office and all these other different things. Point is because that 188 00:12:43,159 --> 00:12:48,720 makes for really boring radio. Point is they've they've taken this information from history 189 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:54,799 and set up this office and in a lot of bringing it back to father 190 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:00,759 more experience. You know, he founded the IE, the Internet Association of 191 00:13:00,759 --> 00:13:05,000 Exorcists, and he even said, you know, classes are worthless learning exorcism. 192 00:13:05,360 --> 00:13:07,720 You have to be a hands on It has to be a hands on 193 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,639 job. You have to experience a firsthand. But taking that experience and understanding, 194 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:13,480 okay, this is how we can help people. And this is how 195 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:18,200 we can help people with also without facing retaliation or getting hurt ourselves, because 196 00:13:18,240 --> 00:13:22,120 that, unfortunately does happen when people kind of step out of the roles of 197 00:13:22,159 --> 00:13:24,480 authority. So I don't know if that answered your question, then I apologize 198 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:30,240 to anyone if that made it a little bit more boring. But context is 199 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:37,679 important, so no, I think it's really helpful. The Watchdog Wall Street 200 00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:41,000 podcast with Chris Markowski. Every day Chris helps unpack the connection between politics and 201 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:45,279 the economy and how it affects your wallet. It's time to see the forest 202 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,919 through the trees. After the mainstream media's NonStop coverage of the Trump indictment, 203 00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:54,320 his twenty twenty four poles continue to surge. Do Democrats in the mainstream media 204 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,000 actually want Trump to get the nomination just so he would lose? Whether it's 205 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:01,360 happening in DC or down the Wall Street, it's affe you financially be informed. 206 00:14:01,440 --> 00:14:03,440 Check out the Watchdout on Wall Street podcast with Chris Murkowski on Apple, 207 00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:11,440 Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. And when we turned back specifically to 208 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,320 father, you know, how many exorcisms did he do? Why is he 209 00:14:16,919 --> 00:14:20,840 how does he end up as specifically the Pope's exorcist? And how what is 210 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:26,480 it about him that draws so much acclaim? Why is he particularly so good 211 00:14:26,519 --> 00:14:28,600 at what he does? Yeah, so, as I mentioned, he you 212 00:14:28,639 --> 00:14:35,480 know, he performed to his estimation upwards of sixty thousand exorcisms, and that 213 00:14:35,639 --> 00:14:39,240 is a wild number, but it can again with context being important. He 214 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:43,879 notes that in some serious cases he would see one person that minimum of fifty 215 00:14:43,919 --> 00:14:46,039 times, so that kind of puts that number into a little bit more perspective. 216 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:52,000 Although regardless, that's still sixty thousand individual you know, moments of performing 217 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:56,840 the solemn rite of exorcism. But he what's fascinating is he did so many 218 00:14:56,919 --> 00:15:01,799 of them that he had the entire memorize. So there's a you know, 219 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:05,600 there's a book, it's the right and of these particular prayers of the priest 220 00:15:05,639 --> 00:15:09,200 can say, and he had it all completely memorized. He didn't have to 221 00:15:09,279 --> 00:15:13,200 use the book. And what's interesting is when he was getting older, those 222 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:18,480 who assisted with him, whether through ancessory prayer or the psychologists or any of 223 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,679 these other different people, they know they can kind of know like, okay, 224 00:15:20,759 --> 00:15:24,600 he's he might be coming to his time, because he ended up having 225 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,960 to start using the book again. So that's you know, that's the number 226 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:31,120 that he performed. And I also think, as a side note, it's 227 00:15:31,159 --> 00:15:35,120 important to note, as you mentioned earlier, in America, we're dealing with 228 00:15:35,159 --> 00:15:37,840 a lot of the rise of the occult, especially during Father Moore's time. 229 00:15:37,879 --> 00:15:43,639 The occulton was rampant in Italy and in Rome, where people primarily or terror 230 00:15:43,759 --> 00:15:50,279 card readers, you know, wuiji boards, palm reading, things of that 231 00:15:50,440 --> 00:15:56,000 nature. So it was really the area was kind of ripe for that kind 232 00:15:56,039 --> 00:16:03,240 of necessity, needing somebody to help people who are becoming oppressed by demons because 233 00:16:03,279 --> 00:16:07,440 of engaging in these activities. But as I and as I mentioned before the 234 00:16:08,159 --> 00:16:11,279 post exercist thing. It's it's it's the best guests, you know. I 235 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,799 think I think you know, it's instead of going to the Pope and saying, 236 00:16:14,799 --> 00:16:18,360 hey, listen, I need permission to do this every day, seventeen 237 00:16:18,399 --> 00:16:21,320 times a day, because I believe it was yeah, up boards of seventeen 238 00:16:21,519 --> 00:16:23,360 people a day at one point, UM, they just kind of said, 239 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:26,840 yeah, do what you need to do. Uh, you know, if 240 00:16:26,879 --> 00:16:29,000 you need a piphany water, you can make him whatever you need to make 241 00:16:29,039 --> 00:16:30,480 it, rather than just on the feast of the piphany x y Z. 242 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:36,200 And he just kind of went from there amazing. And as you've looked back 243 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,120 and reflected on some of his works, I know he wrote about all of 244 00:16:40,159 --> 00:16:44,399 this. Um, is there anything you think stands out about him? Or 245 00:16:44,519 --> 00:16:51,960 is there something that he brought that that really made him unique or even just 246 00:16:52,039 --> 00:16:56,879 at the time, um, in terms of performing so many of these what 247 00:16:56,039 --> 00:16:59,960 is it that gives him you know, maybe the special gift obviously at the 248 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,039 then divine intervention. Yeah, I think that's a great question. I think 249 00:17:03,079 --> 00:17:06,440 there's really two things that come to mind. First, I think is his 250 00:17:06,559 --> 00:17:11,240 sense of humor. And he had no sensationalism about him at all. When 251 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:12,799 he talks, you read any of his books, everything is just a matter 252 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:15,799 of fact. So this is the reality, you know, this is what 253 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,119 happens, this is what we're dealing with. Here's an example, this is 254 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:22,640 bad, this is good, and a sense of humor about it as all 255 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,160 as well, So it doesn't come off as a textbook. You know, 256 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:30,200 it's interesting to read. But in the combination of having no sensationalism, where 257 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:36,839 we're not experiencing you know, this Hollywood nonsense of you know, the absolute 258 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:40,960 worst case scenarios or things that may not actually happen. It's just it's just 259 00:17:40,960 --> 00:17:45,480 a matter of fact. But the second thing is I think that he really 260 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:48,559 had a heart for those who were in need. I mean, he was 261 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:56,240 so he was so what's the word I'm trying to think of. He was 262 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:03,559 so radical about it in a way where he had at once said that bishops 263 00:18:03,559 --> 00:18:07,759 who are not appointing exorcists are in mortal scent, which is kind of wild 264 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,519 to go out there on a limb and say that, because you're going to 265 00:18:10,559 --> 00:18:12,799 make enemies pretty quick. But he said, and he said of bowling. 266 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,559 He said it many times because he recognized there are people who you know, 267 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:19,839 this is an office of the church, and there are people who need this 268 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:25,559 service and they're not being served because bishops are not appointing them. And if 269 00:18:25,599 --> 00:18:27,279 that's the case, then that bishops in mortal scent. And so whether or 270 00:18:27,279 --> 00:18:30,200 not that's the reality, I can't say. I'm not a theologian, but 271 00:18:30,480 --> 00:18:36,200 it shows that his heart was set on serving those who are really, really 272 00:18:36,200 --> 00:18:44,519 in need. And back onto this question of whether this is something that we're 273 00:18:44,559 --> 00:18:48,839 seeing again right now. Obviously this is going to be a pattern throughout history, 274 00:18:48,319 --> 00:18:52,000 but you know, it strikes me that some of the way, as 275 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,359 I was reading the book, Father and morth Is coming to these issues, 276 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:57,920 are looking at these issues, it just reminds me a little bit of the 277 00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:02,359 screw tape letters, which are not totally from a different time period, but 278 00:19:02,559 --> 00:19:07,319 very much a reaction to these at the time high tech world wars. And 279 00:19:07,799 --> 00:19:10,519 I'm wondering if when you look at, you know, the sort of rise 280 00:19:10,559 --> 00:19:14,440 of occult in Italy at that time, or the popularity of the occult in 281 00:19:14,759 --> 00:19:18,759 Italy and that time, if there's also something a parallel to where we are 282 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:23,759 right now, and that you do have some people turning towards Orthodox Catholicism as 283 00:19:23,799 --> 00:19:27,759 an answer to some of these very deep, enduring, painful questions. But 284 00:19:27,839 --> 00:19:32,640 then you also do have some people turning Nuiji boards and tarot cards and horoscopes, 285 00:19:32,680 --> 00:19:36,359 etc. Etc. So as you look back on sort of the era 286 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:42,400 in which he's presiding over so so many exorcisms, do see anything similar today? 287 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:45,680 Oh? Yeah, one, I couldn't agree more. I think you 288 00:19:45,839 --> 00:19:49,960 nailed up with The Screwtape Letters, which is top ten favorite books of mine, 289 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,640 and I highly recommend anyone go and read it. It's it's phenomenal and 290 00:19:53,839 --> 00:19:59,079 gives What's interesting is that you know, this is a total side note real 291 00:19:59,160 --> 00:20:02,359 quick, but you touch on something I love here. So C. S. 292 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,839 Lewis obviously was not Catholic, but everything that he talked about in there 293 00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:11,480 is so theologically sound to what we understand. It's it's pretty stunning, to 294 00:20:11,519 --> 00:20:14,839 the point where you know, at the Avalanchtitute we use that book as one 295 00:20:14,839 --> 00:20:18,680 of the textbooks and a couple of our at least two of our courses. 296 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:22,160 So it's highly recommend it. But to your question, yeah, I think 297 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:27,319 I think you're totally annailing it. I think that there are people, let's 298 00:20:27,359 --> 00:20:33,000 put it those way, It's important to remember that people who are going into 299 00:20:33,559 --> 00:20:38,200 dabbling with these things, nine times out of ten are searching for something more. 300 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:44,119 And usually they're searching for something more because they are wounded in some way, 301 00:20:44,559 --> 00:20:47,400 whether or not they realize it, whether or not is conscious or subconscious. 302 00:20:47,799 --> 00:20:52,359 They're yearning for something to solve whatever pain that they're experiencing. You know, 303 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:55,920 it's the age old story of you have a relative that dies, passes, 304 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:57,799 and so you just want to connect with them again, so you go 305 00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:03,359 to you know, a medium, Hey, can you put me in contact 306 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,480 with them? Not thinking about the potential implications of the reality of the spiritual 307 00:21:07,680 --> 00:21:12,559 world that you know exists around us, or the Luigi board is another version 308 00:21:12,559 --> 00:21:17,039 of that. Or you know, you're anxious and you want to know what 309 00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:18,480 the heck is going on in your life and what's going to happen next. 310 00:21:18,519 --> 00:21:22,039 Am I going to get that job? Am I going to get that house? 311 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:22,799 Am I going to you know? X y Z? So you're going 312 00:21:22,839 --> 00:21:26,279 to go to a tarot card reader or a medium again, right again, 313 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,640 not taking into account the realities of the implications of what that means and the 314 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,960 possibilities out there. I mean, even the indiogram I'm working on. I 315 00:21:36,279 --> 00:21:41,119 put out a ton of information on that recently and I'm working on some text 316 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:45,839 on that, and it's similar. It's people want to understand who you know, 317 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:48,799 who they are. It's marketed as a personality test, but then you 318 00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,039 go into the actual history of it and it turns out, well, it 319 00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:56,119 was never intended as a personality test, and the guys who created it were 320 00:21:56,119 --> 00:22:02,480 deeply involved in witchcraft and occultism and all these different things. And to the 321 00:22:02,519 --> 00:22:07,000 point where it's studying, you know that that people can kind of it's I 322 00:22:07,039 --> 00:22:10,640 don't want to degrade anybody, and I don't want to say that it's stunning 323 00:22:10,640 --> 00:22:12,920 that people can fall for it, But I think we live in a time 324 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:17,519 where we just take everything kind of at face value and we don't necessarily do 325 00:22:17,559 --> 00:22:18,799 our research, and we think, okay, well this is good enough. 326 00:22:19,559 --> 00:22:22,680 But when you start doing your research, you know, a whole lot of 327 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:26,319 stuff comes up and it's it's troubling. So yeah, I don't know, 328 00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:30,519 maybe a curse of our times that's a race. Is exactly what I wanted 329 00:22:30,559 --> 00:22:33,319 to talk about next, which is, you know, when we talk about 330 00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,680 WEGI boards, when we talk about tarot cards or horoscopes or naograms. It 331 00:22:37,839 --> 00:22:44,279 seems I think, especially in uh, you know, the digital society, 332 00:22:44,359 --> 00:22:48,200 where things are kind of morphous and it's it's harder for things to feel real. 333 00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,680 People just assume that it's kind of a choke. Um. Weaji boards 334 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,400 are a great example, and ever since they were invented, um, it's 335 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:02,119 been easy for people to sort of say, well, what's the big deal. 336 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:04,240 So my question you would be, you know, what is the big 337 00:23:04,279 --> 00:23:11,480 deal? What should people realize when they dabble in these things that our culture 338 00:23:11,519 --> 00:23:17,720 has come to accept as harmless or fun or natural in some way? What 339 00:23:17,799 --> 00:23:22,400 should people be aware of? Right? So I'll approach this in a language 340 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,559 or an understanding of basically that those who are listening are are hopefully believing God 341 00:23:26,599 --> 00:23:30,400 in some way, right. So I'm not necessarily speaking to the atheists, 342 00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:33,319 although they may find this interesting. But regardless, uh, you know, 343 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,799 if we understand that there is a god, right, then we also understand 344 00:23:38,799 --> 00:23:42,720 hopefully that there is an enemy. And when you start studying demonology, one 345 00:23:42,759 --> 00:23:47,319 of the first things that you realize is that demons are very, very, 346 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,279 very legalistic. And what that means is, regardless of our individual intentions going 347 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:59,680 into particular activities, if that is and if that is something that was influenced 348 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,680 by, or is led by, or if the activity I mean is influenced 349 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,119 by, or led by, or even created by in some cases the influence 350 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,200 of demons. You're entering into their realm. And it's kind of like, 351 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,480 what's a good I'm trying to think of a good analogy here. You're you're 352 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:18,519 walking into somebody else's house, and it's like, wow, you know, 353 00:24:18,559 --> 00:24:22,400 I don't have an intent to get hurt, but you're in their house, 354 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:25,559 you know, and they're going to do whatever they want to you while you're 355 00:24:25,599 --> 00:24:30,680 in their house. That's that's the legalism that we're dealing with. So you 356 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,880 know, the idea that well, you know, I'm you know, the 357 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,359 Luigi Board's fun and I'm not gonna you know, nothing is going to happen. 358 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:41,920 It's silly, you know, it's it's I wish that that was the 359 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,240 case, but unfortunately that's not the reality that we live in. And again 360 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,599 that's that's taken by as I mentioned, those those young women who in Columbia 361 00:24:49,599 --> 00:24:52,359 who were taken to the hospital, which interestingly enough, that isn't the first 362 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:59,079 case there they had another case a few months earlier of girls who had the 363 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:03,319 same instance, and something that can help if people are still kind of on 364 00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,400 the fence about it, just look up and ask people for testimonies of what 365 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:10,880 they've experienced. I don't think I've ever with a very rare exception, and 366 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,160 I think in those rare exceptions were just God's divine mercy. But people playing 367 00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:23,200 with Uiji boards generally have some negative and seriously negative experience afterwards. Tarot cards 368 00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:27,359 sometimes similar. You know, it just depends on the thing again, the 369 00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:30,680 level of activity. But also we got to keep in mind that wild demons 370 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,960 are both legalistic. As you mentioned the screwtape letters. C. S. 371 00:25:36,039 --> 00:25:38,559 Lewis writes brilliantly that they would prefer that you believe that they didn't exist. 372 00:25:38,839 --> 00:25:41,319 Right. It's not that they're going to come out and scare you in the 373 00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:47,079 middle of the night. It's more of this slow game, the slow you 374 00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:49,079 know, drawing you away from the truth whatever is good, right, Holly, 375 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,480 those sorts of things, slowly making you believe, oh, you know 376 00:25:52,519 --> 00:25:56,039 what, this terrior thing turned out really well, maybe I should go again. 377 00:25:56,079 --> 00:26:00,000 Okay, Now the clause a little bit deeper and it's a little bit 378 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,359 deeper and the next thing, you know, you go into you know, 379 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:07,759 some form of gnosticism. You've seen I've seen this many times with those who 380 00:26:07,839 --> 00:26:12,200 I don't want to name names, but there's particular teachers out there who, 381 00:26:12,319 --> 00:26:15,920 you know, kind of bring up these kind of gnostic ideas and to a 382 00:26:17,039 --> 00:26:19,400 t everyone who follows them ends up going off the rails at some point and 383 00:26:21,079 --> 00:26:23,319 diving into crazy stuff. And it's such a strange phenomenon. But you know, 384 00:26:23,319 --> 00:26:27,559 the data doesn't lie. Yeah, no, it's it's so interesting and 385 00:26:27,920 --> 00:26:32,279 prevalent right now. People need to be aware of all that. It's not 386 00:26:32,319 --> 00:26:36,279 something our culture makes them aware of, but right I also I wanted to 387 00:26:36,319 --> 00:26:41,400 ask about the movie because you mentioned, you know, the book maybe in 388 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:47,039 some part intended to address audiences that are pulled in one direction by the movie. 389 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,160 So I just want to ask about expectations when it comes to that, 390 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:56,400 you know, what indications are there of the depiction. Yeah, this is 391 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:03,240 purely my my review. That doesn't reflect Sophia or anybody else. That's my 392 00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:07,759 disclaimer. I'm not going to see it, and I'll tell you why. 393 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:11,000 I've read some reviews and some of the reviews. They as I kind of 394 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:15,880 suspected Hollywood is going to do what Hollywood does. And there are some things 395 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:21,519 depicted in the movie that Father Morth does that are patent patently false, outright 396 00:27:21,599 --> 00:27:26,440 lies. But that aside. You know, I'm not into glorifying, which 397 00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,440 sounds funny, because this is what I do for a living, right, 398 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,599 and I study. I study this stuff, but I'm not into glorifying any 399 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:36,440 of it. Right. My goal is to provide the reality so people can 400 00:27:36,559 --> 00:27:40,359 navigate this pathway, these waters what's real and what isn't. But you know, 401 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,960 Hollywood makes these things so unreal, and they add this sense of fear 402 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:49,200 and the sensationalism that only causes harm. It's important to note that when you 403 00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,519 study these sorts of things, you discover that one of the primary ways that 404 00:27:53,599 --> 00:28:00,519 demons kind of that can tempt or oppress some people called vexation, So oppression 405 00:28:00,599 --> 00:28:04,880 vexation is kind of similar, is through the memory. You know, So 406 00:28:06,319 --> 00:28:11,000 the things that you put in ultimately are going to feed either the good or 407 00:28:11,039 --> 00:28:14,839 the bad, right, which makes sense on its face anyway. The same 408 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,799 thing with food, right, if you eat chunk and I have chunk results, 409 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,240 you know, same thing with media though, So if you're listening to 410 00:28:22,279 --> 00:28:26,359 good things, if you're consuming good things, you're going to have good results. 411 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:27,759 I wish I could tell you how many people have told me, Yeah, 412 00:28:27,799 --> 00:28:33,000 when I stopped listening to you know, these these scary shows and watch 413 00:28:33,039 --> 00:28:36,799 these scary videos on YouTube and these scary movies, all my fear and anxiety 414 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:38,920 vanished. It's like, well, yeah, because you're not you're not consuming 415 00:28:38,920 --> 00:28:41,720 it. And also on the spiritual level, you're not giving the enemy anything 416 00:28:41,759 --> 00:28:47,119 to message with, you know, your mind with. So that's why I'm 417 00:28:47,119 --> 00:28:48,640 not going to see it. And I just don't. I don't have any 418 00:28:48,680 --> 00:28:56,079 desire to to give money to an industry that continues to lie and cause issues. 419 00:28:56,279 --> 00:28:59,680 So yeah, no. Anda morphe is played by Russell Crowe in the 420 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,720 movie right right, right, So it's definitely a high profile making a sort 421 00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:08,400 of splashy, high profile entrance into a film world this year. On that 422 00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:12,400 note, though, I guess my last question is about the I guess tension 423 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:18,440 maybe that you just talked about, where on the one hand, it's so 424 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:23,799 important for people to see things like Buiji boards and Tarot cards for the darkness 425 00:29:23,839 --> 00:29:30,319 that they represent. On the other hand, the intrigue that our culture promotes 426 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:38,880 surrounding that darkness is dangerous. How should we think about that balance between you 427 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,680 know, wanting to take this really seriously, but then when it's taken seriously 428 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:53,559 in a sense that's maybe overly sensational or almost pornographic. Is that balance? 429 00:29:55,319 --> 00:29:57,279 Yeah, that's a brilliant question. And this is something that I've been struggling 430 00:29:57,279 --> 00:30:00,880 with trying to figure out how to scribe since I started this, because, 431 00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:07,160 as you said, there's a disordered curiosity, this curiosity toss that can lead 432 00:30:07,200 --> 00:30:11,480 people astray where you think, okay, yeah, it's good to research these 433 00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,519 things, but then you know, what does it become? Does it become 434 00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:18,720 an obsession? Does it cause discord, disharmony, strife, things of that 435 00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,599 nature. Generally, I just tell people like, look, you do need 436 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,400 to understand it, right, you need to understand it, But how deeply 437 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,279 do you need to understand it? What is your calling in life? What's 438 00:30:29,319 --> 00:30:33,279 your vocation? And how does this affect your vocation ultimately as a father, 439 00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:34,759 as a mother, or whatever the case may be, wherever you are in 440 00:30:34,759 --> 00:30:37,960 your workplace, as a friend, as a brother, as a sister. 441 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,519 So praying about it and just saying like, Okay, what do I really 442 00:30:41,559 --> 00:30:44,000 need to know? Liken, God, can you give me like a stop 443 00:30:44,039 --> 00:30:48,240 block if I'm reading certain things, if if I'm realizing, ah, you 444 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:51,119 know what, I'm going a little bit too deep. Maybe I don't need 445 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,319 to go this deep. Like what I know is enough versus someone who might 446 00:30:55,319 --> 00:30:57,599 be called to do something like I'm doing, which I truthfully I wish there 447 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:03,119 was more people because there's just there's just so much misinformation out there and there's 448 00:31:03,119 --> 00:31:06,920 not enough people in my opinion, who are who are diving in, who 449 00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:11,880 are properly called and properly equipped I should say, to dive into this sort 450 00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,519 of a thing. But in terms of that, I mean, there's there's 451 00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:18,480 good text out there, like this book is prime example of a perfect text 452 00:31:18,559 --> 00:31:22,400 for somebody to read. If they want to understand the reality of what's going 453 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:26,279 on, they can read this. There's no sensationalism, there's nothing that's going 454 00:31:26,359 --> 00:31:30,079 to take you into a rabbit hole unless you go there yourself. It's just 455 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:36,000 straightforward, very as you mentioned, questions and answers. It's very I think 456 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:37,559 I read it in like less than an hour. It's it's not a huge 457 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:41,240 book, but even all his other books are also very similar. So things 458 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,839 of that nature are what I would call quote unquote safe, but again that 459 00:31:45,839 --> 00:31:52,680 that quote unquote safe safety level is kind of dependent on the person's call and 460 00:31:52,279 --> 00:31:57,400 their spiritual maturity and things for that nature. Jordan Burke, thank you so 461 00:31:57,519 --> 00:32:01,240 much for taking the time to talk to us about the Pope's Exorcist today. 462 00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:05,079 Yeah, this is great. Thank you so much for having me. Of 463 00:32:05,079 --> 00:32:07,599 course, you've been listening to another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm 464 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:10,720 Emily Rasnski, culture editor here at the Federalist. We'll be back soon with 465 00:32:10,799 --> 00:32:15,359 more. Until then, the lovers are freedom and anxious for the fray. 466 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:32,759 I heard the fame by the reason, and then it faded away.