WEBVTT

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Today, I want to tell you
about a journey that I've been on for

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most of my life. Ever since
I was a kid, I've heard tales

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of bigfoot and wild men while spending
time with my friends and family. As

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I grew older and read more about
the paranormal, my interest encryptids and other

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things strange only deepened. That's why
I'm so excited to share with you what

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I've personally become involved with the Untold
Radio Network. The Untold Radio Network is

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a live streaming podcast network that airs
a new show every day across all podcast

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platforms, YouTube, and more.
They have eight different shows on all sorts

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of exciting topics such as bigfoot,
cryptids, UFOs, aliens, and much

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more. I even have my own
show called Weird Encounters, where I talk

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about all things strange. This is
more than just a podcast network. It's

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a community that allows me to meet
so many amazing people who share their stories

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and experiences with the strange. If
you're interested in hearing more of these stories

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and learning more about the paranormal and
encryptids, make sure you check out the

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Untold Radio Network for all kinds of
exciting shows. It's free to subscribe.

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So what are you waiting for visit
www dot Untold Radio neetwork dot com.

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Today, everybody, this is Less
Striding Yes, yes I know aka Surviving

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Matt and you're listening to Brian on
Sasquatch Odison You guys, and welcome back

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to Sasquatch. Thank you so much
for being with us for the show.

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It is Friday. I hope you
guys have had a great week. You

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have an amazing guest lined up for
you. But as always, I want

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to start fin inviting me. If
you've had an encounter and you'd like to

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be on the show, shoot me
an email and get me at Brian at

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Paranamore Oral Productions dot com. Can
head over to the website, check it

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out, become a member there and
now support the show. As I said,

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we've got a great guests lined up
for you. I got to sit

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down with Brian Brown. He's a
former North American Woodape Conservancy member and he

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does research out in the area of
Area X and he's here to share some

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of his personal experiences that he had
in Area X in the valley next door

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to Area X. But one of
the main things I asked Brian on the

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show to talk about was the episode
of The Low Files with Rob Low and

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his two sons when they came out
to Area X and spent the night with

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those guys out there, and they
had some really interesting experiences that night.

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So until I can get Roblow on
the show to have him talk about it

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in person, Brian is the next
best person to talk about it because he

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was right there with him when it
happened. So I think you're really going

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to enjoy this really quickly before we
get into the show, I want to

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mention this. I have the opportunity
to go up to British Columbia, Canada,

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to the Radium Hot Springs area and
do a Bigfoot expedition with Todd Standing

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in October of this year. As
most of you know, I have famously

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called Todd Standing out for hoaxing many
many times on the show. He's been

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a guest on the show, and
he did defend his position on that.

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I really haven't changed my opinion on
those videos that he put out that he

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purports to be Sasquatch. But I
am going up there in October to spend

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a week in the Radium area and
do research in his area with Todd.

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I am definitely trying to put together
some funds for the travel expenses and some

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of the equipment that I'm going to
have to take with me up there.

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So I started to go fund me
page. If you guys are interested in

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donating to that, the link is
right here in the show notes. You

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can click on that. Any donation
is welcome, from a dollar to whatever

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you can give. If you donate
one hundred dollars or more, you will

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get assigned sasquatch out to see T
shirt that I'll stick in the mail and

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get out to you asap. And
five hundred dollars or more, we'll get

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you on the show after I get
back from the expedition, and we're going

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to break that down and talk about
it, and we may even have Todd

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join us to go over and talk
about some of the things that happen while

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we're up there. So if you'd
like to be a part of that and

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you want to donate to the cause, the go fund link is right there

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in the show notes. All you
got to do is click it. It

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takes a couple of seconds and it
is very much appreciated. But enough of

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that, I know you guys are
here for the stories Brian's on the line.

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He's ready to go. You guys, sit back, relax, and

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enjoy the show. I folks,
want to welcome my guest to the show.

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It is Brian Brown. Welcome to
the show. Brian, Thank you.

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I'm happy to be here. I
am glad to have you. So

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let's get right into it. Let's
talk about this big foot thing. Let's

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talk about Sasquatch. I always asked
the same question just about of everybody who

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comes on the show. What got
you interested in the subject to begin with?

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You know, for me, I
think it's a couple of things.

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I grew up in southern California,
so I wasn't in northern California, but

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if you were in California, I
grew up in the seventies in California,

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and so you know, Bigfoot was
just everywhere back then, and it was

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just permeating the culture. So I
was aware of the animal. When I

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was a kid. Of course,
there was Boggy Creek. I'm sure everyone

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my age just one of the first
things they'll mentioned is Boggie Creek. I

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didn't sit running a toilet for years
after that movie came out. If there

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was a window next or to me
or sitting next to me, and then

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you know, six million dollar man. But I think the most important thing

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for me was I got a copy
of John Green's Sasquatch Files when I was

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really young. We were on a
road trip and I just sat in the

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back of the car, I remember, and just I read that book like

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it's not really a book, like
a thick pamphlet, really, and I

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read that cover to cover, you
know, again and again and again.

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It was that was really what sent
me off was John Green. I was

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just sitting here before we hopped on
and I talked to Todd Prescott about a

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week or so ago, and he's
graciously allowing me to use some of the

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audio from some of the more rare
interviews with Patterson and Gimbler and some of

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the other things on the Sasquatch Archives
that he got from the John Green collection.

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And that story in and of itself
is just fascinating. John Green is

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probably one of my favorite Bigfoot researchers
of all time, and anything related to

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John Green I'm all about. So
I'm putting together a really cool show about

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the PG film and we're gonna hopefully
use some of that audio. So we'll

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have that coming up in the next
couple of weeks. So you did all

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that as a kid, when did
you actually get into the boots on the

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ground. Was an experience that drove
you into bigfoot research? Or was it

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something else? It was something else. It was just that I was interested

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in it, so, you know, my interest kind of waned as I

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got older. And it's a funny
story. I've told it before, but

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my wife was cleaning out our home
office back in like two thousand and two

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and yeah, well late two thousand
and one, tho thousand and two,

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something like that, and she was
I just happened to walk in and she

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had this big trash bag full of
crap, and on top of it was

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this book, was this John Green
book was Sasquash Files. And I was

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like, what are you doing.
You can't throw that away. She's like,

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what that because that book came out
like in nineteen seventy three or some

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crazy thing like that. And I'm
like, no, you can't throw that

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away. So I grabbed it out
of the out of the trash. Literally,

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if I had not walked in,
it would have been gone forever.

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My life would have been so different. And I just I you know,

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they just rekindled my interest. And
so at that point, you know,

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the web was really turning into a
thing. I had sort of recently gotten

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a job building website, so I
was really sort of like, you know,

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thinking about that as a as a
medium. And also back then,

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this was before social media, right, there was no Facebook, there was

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no Twitter, there was no nothing. What we did is there was Internet

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forms, and so I'm like,
well there must be and I was.

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I was a member of many forms, mostly like tech forms like mac forms

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and things like that. I'm like, there's gotta be forums out there about

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bigfoot so I can talk to people
about this. I still I had I

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was in Minnesota at this point,
Like as far as icons concerned, there

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were no bigfoot within like fifteen yard
miles of me, and so I went

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looking for I remember I typed in
bigfootforums dot com and there was nothing there.

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And that just blew my mind that
there was no bigfootforums dot com.

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I don't know why I thought there
would be, but I just I was

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convinced there would be a Bigfoot forms. And I remember telling my wife,

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like, did you know there's no
bigfootforums dot com? She looked at me

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like I had a second head growing
out of my shoulders or something. She's

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like, who cares. Anyway,
I went and I registered bigfootforums dot com.

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I set up some free forum software
on my computer in my basement,

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and that was it. I just
I wanted to talk to people and learn

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about this, this phenomenon, and
that's really what started the whole thing.

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It was just sort of an a
gnawing interest as an adult at this point

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in the subject, wanting to talk
to people, wanting to sort of create

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community around it, and the Bigfoot
Forums is what introduced me. Eventually,

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the Bigfootforums was listed on Yahoo,
which is this is again before Google.

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We got list of the same day
as the old TBRC Craig Woolheaters Organization,

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which eventually turned into the NAWAC.
And so I got to know Craig a

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little bit because we shared that little, you know, bit of connection,

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and eventually that got me out to
the International Bigfoot Symposium in Woolla Creek,

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which I think was in two thousand
and three, and then that got me

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that introduced me to Alton Higgins and
the parking lot of the Bigfoot Motel,

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and that's it. You know,
I once I met Alton, that got

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me an invitation to hang out with
the TVRC folks, Like I said,

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that's what they were called back then, and that got me into Area Y.

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That got me into areas of Oklahoma
that Elton was spending time in,

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and eventually into Area X. So
it was that just interest to connect to

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people and want to talk to people
about the subject that eventually got me into

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are X. How long did it
take you once you were out there in

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the woods with these people, Because
I've talked to several people, had Darrell

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call, you're on Michael May's.
I just did a Bob Strain interview.

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I've talked to Kathy Strain before,
and some of the experiences that they had

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in those areas was pretty crazy.
Right, They're out there, boots on

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the ground, first hour, They're
having visual sidings of these things. How

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long did that take to pop off
for you once you get out there in

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the woods in those areas? Long
time. Actually, the first time I

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went into the woods because of Bigfoot, because I was looking for woodapes or

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thinking about them, was with Bob
Strain. He was he was my introduction.

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You know, I'm a city boy, I'm from southern California, you

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know, life along Dodger fan.
I didn't know anything about camping. I

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didn't know anything about forests or mountains
or anything, and so Bob was extraordinarily

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kind. After the symposium, he
took me to and a couple other guys

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to Laos Camp where Roger and Bob
were camping when they made the famous film,

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and so we got to spend I
got spent a little time there.

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That was the first time in my
life I had been out in the woods

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in my life, sleeping in a
tent. I was scared to death just

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because it was so dark. And
anyway, it wasn't until I would say,

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like two thousand in I was just
thinking about this. I think the

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first time I was in Area X
was two thousand and seven, So it

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was a good like four years later
or something like that where I got into

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an area and I had been going
out, you know, we went to

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like Scuka Meadows and place like that. So I had been going out,

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but until nothing really significant had happened. And all that time until I got

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to Area X, and that first
weekend, I think it was two thousand

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and seven, I was in there
for a long weekend and I didn't see

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anything, but there were I mean, we heard a lot of weird things.

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I heard a whoop, we heard
boulders getting chucked around. There was

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there was stuff going on, for
sure, But that was really the first

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time that I had had an experience
that I thought was was really really interesting

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and potentially an ape. What was
some of the most memorable things that happened

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to you out doing the research,
whether it was at Area X or anywhere

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else, when you got to interact
with these wood apes. What was some

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of the things that stuck out to
you, some of the experiences that you

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had that have stuck with you all
this time, you know, I actually

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I recently made a list because you
talk about this with you know, when

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you hang out with these guys,
you tell all your stories, right,

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And I realized that I didn't really
even know how many times I think I've

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seen an ape, and so I
made the list, and it's about twelve

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times. And some of those visuals
are really, really, really good.

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Two of them in particular. Some
of them are just real fleeting, so

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they're probably apes. But I don't
know for an absolute fact, but I

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think that, you know, one
of the most intriguing things that happened down

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there. I was in there one
night with my friend Rich who's from Great

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Britain, and Daryl Collier. I
think that might have been the first time

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Rich had gone into Area X,
and we were the three of us were

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sitting around camp and it was it
was pitch black. We didn't have a

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fire going or anything. And Rich, who has this like supernatural night vision,

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he can see things in the dark
that no one else can. He

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picked up it was just a real
faint glimmer of eyeshine of an animal that

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appeared to be sort of holding onto
a tree and had climbed up a tree

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and was looking at us from from
behind a tree. And he could see

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this thing's eyeshine. And I mean, dude, it was so dark.

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I couldn't see anything with my naked
eye, but I had night vision,

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and so I held up my night
vision and sure enough I could see right

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where he was saying. There were
two little dots, two little glowing dots.

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Well, Daryl had a thermal scope
that was off the rifle. It

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was handheld at that point, and
he looked up there and sure enough,

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bright as day, you could see
this this roundhead. It was holding onto

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a tree, so that was looking
around. You know, from our perspective,

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it was looking on the sort of
left side of the tree at us.

210
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And the crazy thing is on the
thermal, you could actually see its

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fingers on the opposite side of the
tree and they were moving, you know,

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as it was looking at us.
That was so crazy because that went

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on for like twenty minutes. That
thing was looking at us, and again

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Rich could see it with his naked
vision, I could see it in the

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night vision, and we all could
see it through the thermal. So that

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was like sort of three different ways
we were seeing this animal. And it

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just stood there. It stood there, It hung there, sort of held

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onto this tree and watched us for
a really long time. And it wasn't

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close enough that we could go do
anything. It was pretty thick in there,

220
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so if we had started to go
towards it, it would have taken

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off. So we just were sort
of keeping an eye on it and seeing

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what it was doing. All it
was doing was watching us. And that's

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the thing that we've experienced, you
know, I've experienced again and again in

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Area X. They just want to
like keep an eye on you. They

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just want to like watch you,
and that's what this thing was doing.

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Eventually I got up, I had
to relieve myself, and I didn't even

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think about it. I just sort
of like looked in that direction with my

228
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red headlight on and as soon as
I did that, rich Soot dropped to

229
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the ground and I could hear it
take off. But I mean, that

230
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whole encounter probably took fifteen twenty minutes. And it's just so interesting because I

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think it shows how patient these animals
are. That thing had climbed up onto

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that tree. We didn't hear a
peep as it did it, and it

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just sat there. It would have
sat there all night watching us if we

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hadn't seen it. Again, they're
just very, very patient animals. And

235
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that was That's probably one of the
most super interesting things that's happened to me

236
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down there. And you said,
out of all these visuals, there was

237
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another one that you thought was pretty
interesting. Less talk about that any other

238
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things that you can remember as far
as behavior that stuck out to you,

239
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maybe even outside of the visuals that
you experienced. Yeah, So I think

240
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the absolute best visual I had was
again through thermal It was one night my

241
00:14:48.360 --> 00:14:52.240
friend Brandon was there, Brendan Lentz
and a few other guys, three other

242
00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:58.440
guys, and we were in sort
of the original compound area that the NAWAC

243
00:14:58.639 --> 00:15:01.039
used to operate out of in Area
X. And it was a really hot

244
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.759
couple of days. It was like
one hundred and five degrees during the day.

245
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It was very, very, very
very warm for that for that part

246
00:15:07.200 --> 00:15:09.919
of the country. And so that
night we just wanted to sit around again

247
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in the dark and turned into a
thing. Sitting around camp with no lights

248
00:15:13.159 --> 00:15:16.120
turned into a thing. And it
really happened after this night because as we

249
00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.519
were sitting there, and this was
Brandon's first week in the valley. He

250
00:15:20.559 --> 00:15:24.039
had been there for a long weekend
in the winter, but this was his

251
00:15:24.120 --> 00:15:26.759
first time in during the summer.
And so we're sitting around and it's so

252
00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:28.279
dark, man, we can't even
see each other. And we're just sitting

253
00:15:28.279 --> 00:15:33.480
in a circle, right, and
Brandon scoping around with the thermal and he

254
00:15:33.519 --> 00:15:37.200
says that he sees a heat signature. He thinks he sees an animal,

255
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:39.039
you know, sort of from my
perspective, it was kind of off to

256
00:15:39.120 --> 00:15:43.240
my right and behind him, and
I'm like, okay, Nubie, let

257
00:15:43.240 --> 00:15:45.679
me see this thing which you think
is ape, right, And I put

258
00:15:45.720 --> 00:15:48.799
the thermal to my eye and Brian, I'm telling you, as soon as

259
00:15:48.799 --> 00:15:50.480
it touched my eye, I saw
an ape. I saw an ape.

260
00:15:50.480 --> 00:15:54.440
It was standing. It was the
absolute shape of an eight pointy head,

261
00:15:54.759 --> 00:16:00.120
broad shoulders. It was standing between
two trees. And what was confusing me

262
00:16:00.159 --> 00:16:03.559
at the time is that it wasn't
as bright as I thought it was going

263
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:07.919
to be. The trees were super
bright white, and that's just because they

264
00:16:07.919 --> 00:16:10.360
were the hottest thing in the image
because they've been standing out in the sun

265
00:16:10.399 --> 00:16:14.919
all day long and it was ridiculously
warm. So I saw this thing and

266
00:16:15.080 --> 00:16:18.039
I'm like, okay, I see
your ape. I see it. It's

267
00:16:18.120 --> 00:16:18.960
behind the woodshed, I said.
He's like, no, no, no,

268
00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.039
it's over by the outhouse. I'm
like, you don't know what you're

269
00:16:22.039 --> 00:16:23.240
talking about. That's the woodshed,
not the outhouse. So anyway, we

270
00:16:23.240 --> 00:16:26.120
had this sort of like Keystone Cops
moment where we were passing the thermal back

271
00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:30.279
and forth and he was saying the
thing was by the outhouse and I'm saying,

272
00:16:30.320 --> 00:16:32.200
no, you're wrong, it's behind
the woodshed. Well, I think

273
00:16:32.240 --> 00:16:34.240
you know, fast forward a little
bit. I think there were two apes,

274
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:40.120
and that is one of the interesting
bits of sort of behavior. I

275
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don't know if it's behavior, but
it's an observation we've made in those valleys

276
00:16:42.919 --> 00:16:48.440
in that part of southeastern Oklahoma.
As we very often see these animals together

277
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.840
in pairs, are you very very
often see more than one, which is

278
00:16:51.919 --> 00:16:53.519
kind of unusual. I think if
you look at the data, and especially

279
00:16:53.559 --> 00:16:57.080
the Pacific Northwest, it's very often
what you're seeing is a solitary animal.

280
00:16:57.440 --> 00:17:00.879
But down there, if you're seeing
an there's a very very good chance that

281
00:17:00.919 --> 00:17:04.960
there's another one around, because there
are a lot of accounts of sort of

282
00:17:06.039 --> 00:17:08.559
two apes being seen at the same
time, and usually it's a much larger

283
00:17:08.559 --> 00:17:12.039
one and a smaller one, smaller
being like, you know, the size

284
00:17:12.079 --> 00:17:15.839
of you and me, and the
larger one being like eight feet tall.

285
00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.200
I don't know if those are like
mated pairs. I don't know, you

286
00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:23.559
know, Bob and Cathy Strain and
I had a visual of two that were

287
00:17:23.640 --> 00:17:26.720
actually sort of a normal human size
and maybe a little smaller. So I

288
00:17:26.720 --> 00:17:30.880
don't know if you're looking at young
I'm not exactly sure, but in this

289
00:17:30.920 --> 00:17:36.440
particular instance, I was just blown
away by how classically big Foot shaped.

290
00:17:36.480 --> 00:17:38.160
It's sort of like that that image
behind you, except the head was pointier

291
00:17:38.720 --> 00:17:41.960
and between these two trees. And
I'm like, I got to the point

292
00:17:41.039 --> 00:17:45.319
where I was. I was shining
a flashlight on that spot and it was

293
00:17:45.440 --> 00:17:48.279
a good gosh, I'm not good
with distance, and it's been a while,

294
00:17:48.279 --> 00:17:51.640
but it was. It was many
yards away, probably thirty forty yards

295
00:17:51.720 --> 00:17:53.799
something like that away, and it
was up a slope, so I would

296
00:17:53.799 --> 00:17:56.680
put my flashlight on it, and
I didn't see anything. I saw the

297
00:17:56.720 --> 00:18:00.039
trees clear as day, but it
was just like sort of a g I

298
00:18:00.200 --> 00:18:03.319
ate nothing in between the trees.
And I couldn't figure that out because when

299
00:18:03.319 --> 00:18:04.119
I put the thing, when I
put the scope to my eyes, I

300
00:18:04.119 --> 00:18:07.319
could see it perfectly, and when
I put the light up there, all

301
00:18:07.359 --> 00:18:11.079
I saw was gray. So I'm
like, okay, I'm gonna go up

302
00:18:11.079 --> 00:18:12.880
there. I'm just gonna go up
there. And that's the difference between Brian

303
00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:17.680
now and Brian back in two thousand
and three. Whenever it was I would

304
00:18:17.759 --> 00:18:21.039
never have gone up there in two
thousand and three, but now I'm like,

305
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:23.119
I gotta know what I'm looking at. So I put the light on

306
00:18:23.160 --> 00:18:26.799
it the white light on it,
and I started walking at it in a

307
00:18:26.880 --> 00:18:29.680
straight line. I wasn't. I
mean, I walked across the fire pit,

308
00:18:29.759 --> 00:18:30.799
which didn't have a fire in it
because I didn't want to, and

309
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:34.640
I didn't even blink because I wanted
to because I knew there was something there.

310
00:18:34.680 --> 00:18:37.839
I just could not see it with
my eyes. And I was like,

311
00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:40.759
once I got to the bottom of
the slope, it moved. And

312
00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:42.039
then I'll tell you, man,
like every hair in the back of my

313
00:18:42.119 --> 00:18:45.400
neck stood up because that ape had
been standing there the whole time. But

314
00:18:45.480 --> 00:18:48.559
it was gray, so I couldn't
see it. You know. One of

315
00:18:48.599 --> 00:18:52.519
the things that you hear historians talk
about at the beginning of World War One

316
00:18:52.839 --> 00:18:56.880
is that the German Armies uniforms were
gray. And one of the reasons they

317
00:18:56.880 --> 00:19:00.680
were grays because you couldn't see him
as well. It was early form of

318
00:19:00.720 --> 00:19:03.400
camouflage. It was just using a
color and this animal was gray, and

319
00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:07.599
until it moved, I could not
see it. And then I saw it

320
00:19:07.680 --> 00:19:11.400
step out behind the tree and presumably
walk away along the slope, and that

321
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.680
was that was like, that just
freaked me the hell out because it was

322
00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:18.119
so big. Then it filled up
this whole thing, and I realized that

323
00:19:18.200 --> 00:19:19.759
I was seeing it the whole time. I was just seeing the color of

324
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:23.119
them, you know. So I
was probably the best visual I've ever had,

325
00:19:23.160 --> 00:19:26.440
just because it went on for gosh, I don't know. I mean,

326
00:19:26.480 --> 00:19:30.039
Brandon would probably remember better, but
it was probably like ten minutes that

327
00:19:30.079 --> 00:19:33.440
we were arguing. Then we figured
out when we compared notes, the animal

328
00:19:33.480 --> 00:19:37.160
he was seeing was down on the
ground. It was closer and sort of

329
00:19:37.200 --> 00:19:38.799
like on its stomach, kind of
getting closer to us. And again,

330
00:19:38.839 --> 00:19:41.039
this is what they do. They
kind of sneak up on you. They

331
00:19:41.039 --> 00:19:44.240
want to they want to just observe. I don't know if I don't know

332
00:19:44.279 --> 00:19:48.079
why. I think they just find
us endlessly fascinating. But his animal wasn't

333
00:19:48.119 --> 00:19:51.039
the one I was looking at at
all. His animal was down on the

334
00:19:51.039 --> 00:19:53.160
ground, closer to us. And
what I think, I think what happened

335
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:57.680
is that animal up on the slope
was sort of watching over the other one

336
00:19:57.680 --> 00:20:02.119
that was getting closer to us.
Stay tuned for more Sasquatch out to see.

337
00:20:02.119 --> 00:20:08.279
We'll be right back after these messages. That's sort of the best guess

338
00:20:08.359 --> 00:20:11.559
that I have at this point.
So we were actually seeing two animals,

339
00:20:11.559 --> 00:20:15.599
two different animals. One that was
way closer than us, that's the one

340
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:17.519
that Brandon saw, and than the
one up on the slope, the one

341
00:20:17.519 --> 00:20:21.359
that I saw. That's one thing
that I haven't asked anybody else really that

342
00:20:21.400 --> 00:20:23.559
I've interviewed from that area outside.
I think I asked Kathy the question because

343
00:20:23.920 --> 00:20:26.880
she had seen some that were a
lot smaller, like you've mentioned, is

344
00:20:26.920 --> 00:20:30.160
the size of these things. That's
one of the things that's interested me about

345
00:20:30.200 --> 00:20:34.680
Area X is that you guys are
normally seeing them at least two, possibly

346
00:20:34.759 --> 00:20:38.799
three at a time, and they're
different sizes. I mean, every just

347
00:20:38.880 --> 00:20:42.880
about every encounter that I've ever documented, I'm three hundred plus episodes in on

348
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:48.480
this show of people who have had
experiences of a sasquatch, almost without fail,

349
00:20:48.000 --> 00:20:56.000
it is this overwhelmingly large, hulking
figure eight nine feet tall. I

350
00:20:56.000 --> 00:21:00.119
mean, I've even had people say
possibly ten feet tall, eight hundred and

351
00:21:00.200 --> 00:21:03.319
pounds. And yet when I'm talking
to you guys from Area X, Daryl

352
00:21:03.400 --> 00:21:06.599
sort of described it. When I
talked to him, I think he used

353
00:21:06.599 --> 00:21:10.000
the word core. He called it
a core area for these things. Is

354
00:21:10.039 --> 00:21:12.720
sort of his theory on it,
as in they may be breeding in that

355
00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:17.839
area and that's what you guys are
seeing maybe smaller juveniles. Is that the

356
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:19.240
case as far as you know,
I know, you spend a ton of

357
00:21:19.279 --> 00:21:23.279
time there. As far as what
you saw and the other visuals that people

358
00:21:23.359 --> 00:21:26.640
had while you were there that you're
aware of. Is there a lot of

359
00:21:26.680 --> 00:21:30.720
difference in the size or there,
Like you said, maybe eight feet tall

360
00:21:30.759 --> 00:21:33.480
and then down to even smaller ones. Is they're a pretty good mixture there,

361
00:21:33.920 --> 00:21:36.519
Yeah, for sure. I mean
we've clearly seen really really big oness.

362
00:21:36.640 --> 00:21:38.519
But I mean I remember one time
I saw one that was peeking at

363
00:21:38.519 --> 00:21:41.720
me from behind a tree and it
couldn't have been any bigger than me,

364
00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:44.599
right, And there's other guys that
have been in there, people that I

365
00:21:44.680 --> 00:21:48.359
know who have seen sort of chimpsize
the ones, little tangy ones. Kathy

366
00:21:48.440 --> 00:21:51.960
saw a little one jump from top
of a tree to another tree. So

367
00:21:52.000 --> 00:21:53.920
I think the term of the biologists
use as a refugium. It's a place

368
00:21:53.920 --> 00:21:57.720
where these animals feel that they can
go and reproduce and do sort of domestic

369
00:21:57.759 --> 00:22:02.960
things and you know, make more
animals. And that's sort of my operating

370
00:22:02.960 --> 00:22:06.799
assumption about the place is that for
whatever reason, these valleys, and it's

371
00:22:06.839 --> 00:22:10.039
not just the one valley the NWAC
works in. The valley that I've been

372
00:22:10.200 --> 00:22:15.160
in most recently is next door,
and we've had encounters there as well visuals.

373
00:22:15.240 --> 00:22:19.799
So I think that's it's this whole
sort of region in these mountains where

374
00:22:21.039 --> 00:22:25.000
for whatever reason, the animals feel
that they can they can reproduce and have

375
00:22:25.640 --> 00:22:27.599
you know, baby apes and running
around. But I think I think that's

376
00:22:27.599 --> 00:22:32.079
a pretty safe assumption at this point, based on the years that I've been

377
00:22:32.079 --> 00:22:33.720
in there, and based on all
the accounts. So the people I know,

378
00:22:34.119 --> 00:22:37.359
we're seeing them all shapes and sizes. Some are really really big ones,

379
00:22:37.680 --> 00:22:41.400
I would guess, you know,
the average size is probably just a

380
00:22:41.440 --> 00:22:42.359
little bit bigger than you and me. I don't know how big you are.

381
00:22:42.400 --> 00:22:47.799
I'm six feet tall. They're not
necessarily huge the ones that we're saying

382
00:22:47.799 --> 00:22:51.119
most of the time. Yeah,
you say you're working in the area near

383
00:22:51.119 --> 00:22:53.119
there, what kind of experiences are
you encounters? Are you guess haveing there?

384
00:22:53.160 --> 00:22:56.599
Is it's similar to what's going on
in Area X. Do you see

385
00:22:56.599 --> 00:23:00.279
differences? Do you think it's the
same apes traveling from one area to the

386
00:23:00.319 --> 00:23:03.480
other. Man I wish I knew
that answer. You know, my assumption

387
00:23:03.599 --> 00:23:06.240
is that at least some of them
are the same. You know, there's

388
00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:08.880
a there's a ridge that separates these
two valleys, and on that ridge,

389
00:23:08.920 --> 00:23:12.960
there have been several visuals. I
had a very brief visual of a large

390
00:23:14.039 --> 00:23:17.680
gray animal up there, but there's
been several guys who have seen a big

391
00:23:17.720 --> 00:23:21.400
gray one up there. It might
be the same big gray one. There

392
00:23:21.440 --> 00:23:25.960
might be multiple big gray ones.
You know. I've seen one, two

393
00:23:26.039 --> 00:23:30.000
three, I've probably seen four gray
animals. None of the visuals have been

394
00:23:30.200 --> 00:23:33.200
except for that one with thermal.
There's just no way to know if it's

395
00:23:33.240 --> 00:23:36.559
the same animal. That's sort of
the sixty four thousand dollar question is how

396
00:23:36.599 --> 00:23:38.480
many of them are packed in there? And you know how many of them

397
00:23:38.559 --> 00:23:41.680
are how many of room are there, you know, and what's their range?

398
00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:45.160
If you go to the NAWBC website. When I was in the organization,

399
00:23:45.400 --> 00:23:48.319
we were able to radio tag an
animal, and I think that's the

400
00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:55.160
only data that I'm aware of in
the world that shows potentially the range of

401
00:23:55.160 --> 00:23:57.359
one of these animals, and it
was up and over the mountains and around.

402
00:23:57.359 --> 00:24:00.680
That's one of the reasons why we
felt really comfortable going into the next

403
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:03.000
valley and thinking there would be apes
there is because it was over there.

404
00:24:03.000 --> 00:24:07.119
This animal that was tagged was absolutely
all through that region. But I just

405
00:24:07.119 --> 00:24:10.519
don't know. I don't know how
many are in there. I assume that

406
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:11.759
it's not the same, like half
dozen apes. I mean, that does

407
00:24:11.759 --> 00:24:17.119
doesn't make any sense. So I
assume that there's a population. I assume

408
00:24:17.200 --> 00:24:22.079
that it has to be big enough
for breeding and to reproduce successfully. So

409
00:24:22.319 --> 00:24:25.880
my assumption is these are different apes, but I don't know for a fact.

410
00:24:25.960 --> 00:24:30.599
But yeah, in the next valley
over I had a brief visual just

411
00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:33.640
last fall, followed by some other
guys that were with me twenty minutes later

412
00:24:33.759 --> 00:24:37.680
a visual of another animal in the
same place. So again a pair.

413
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:41.400
The one that I saw was large
and light colored, probably was gray,

414
00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:45.039
if not gray, sort of a
it was a light colored animal. I'm

415
00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:48.119
gonna say it was gray. And
then the one that the other guy saw

416
00:24:48.599 --> 00:24:52.759
was very very either dark dark brown
or black. So yeah, they're they're

417
00:24:52.799 --> 00:24:55.960
all overthrow there. And you know, if I've been going in there since

418
00:24:56.000 --> 00:24:59.359
two thousand and seven, it means
I've been going in there like sixteen years

419
00:24:59.440 --> 00:25:03.079
or something. And I've had twelve
visuals, six of which I would say

420
00:25:03.079 --> 00:25:06.440
are pretty good. The other six
are pretty fleeting. I mean that's pretty

421
00:25:06.440 --> 00:25:07.599
good. I mean, if you
think you can go into a place about

422
00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.359
once a year see and eight.
I mean, yeah, we're talking about

423
00:25:11.400 --> 00:25:14.119
John Green. John Green never saw
an eight. You know, he never

424
00:25:14.200 --> 00:25:18.720
got to see one. That's remarkable. It's remarkable. So it either there's

425
00:25:18.240 --> 00:25:22.720
a very concentrated population of them,
or for whatever reason, as soon as

426
00:25:22.759 --> 00:25:26.640
somebody who used to be in the
NAAC shows that, they just start following

427
00:25:26.680 --> 00:25:29.599
around, which doesn't get you sent
them all right, So I think there

428
00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.359
must be a pretty significant population in
there. You mentioned tag seven, And

429
00:25:33.440 --> 00:25:37.559
I want to talk a little bit
about evidence, because that's something that's come

430
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:40.480
up in a couple of the conversations
I've had with people who spend a lot

431
00:25:40.519 --> 00:25:44.119
of time in those valleys. Is
the evidence right? I know for the

432
00:25:44.240 --> 00:25:48.400
NAWAC, their mission for the longest
time, and part of that mission still

433
00:25:48.519 --> 00:25:52.160
is is to collect a specimen.
According to Darrel, they're sort of switching

434
00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.160
that into more of people carrying cameras. I mean, Darrel told him he

435
00:25:56.160 --> 00:25:57.799
doesn't carry a long gun anymore.
He carries a camera because he's trying to

436
00:25:57.799 --> 00:26:03.079
get some footage of these things,
some good photo documentation. I know over

437
00:26:03.119 --> 00:26:06.200
the years there was an incident that
Bob mentioned, I can't remember the name

438
00:26:06.279 --> 00:26:07.920
of what he called it, but
where one of these things was injured.

439
00:26:08.119 --> 00:26:11.599
I think it might have actually been
Darrow that took a shot of this thing.

440
00:26:11.880 --> 00:26:14.599
I know there were some blood collected
in that. But over the time

441
00:26:14.599 --> 00:26:17.680
you've been going in there since two
thousand and seven, what has been the

442
00:26:17.720 --> 00:26:21.519
most impressive thing, obviously, other
than people actually seeing these things, which

443
00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:23.720
is pretty rare in of itself for
someone to have a visual sighting, what

444
00:26:23.880 --> 00:26:26.960
kind of evidence has come out of
there that has really stood out to you

445
00:26:27.039 --> 00:26:32.279
that either you've been really proud of
a you've seen collected that has moved the

446
00:26:32.279 --> 00:26:34.839
ball down the field in your mind
as far as the research goes, well,

447
00:26:34.839 --> 00:26:38.680
there's been hair collected. Hair is
problematic because you don't have to have

448
00:26:38.720 --> 00:26:41.480
a type specimen. There is a
type specimen. That's what you always get

449
00:26:41.480 --> 00:26:45.720
to whenever you have these conversations,
and why I do believe that eventually it's

450
00:26:45.720 --> 00:26:49.400
going to require the collection of some
kind of specimens, some kind of either

451
00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:52.960
a part of one or something right, and I think blood might do it.

452
00:26:53.359 --> 00:26:57.200
I don't know. I'm not a
scientist by training in any stretched imagination,

453
00:26:57.640 --> 00:27:00.880
but what you owe, which you
kind of get back to, is

454
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:03.240
that there's nothing to compare this stuff
too. So there's been hair collected,

455
00:27:03.559 --> 00:27:07.279
that it's not a great place to
collect footprint evidence. That the ground just

456
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:10.920
isn't conducive. I don't know if
you've ever been over there in that part

457
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:12.599
of the country, but the ground
is very hard, very rocky. There

458
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.799
just isn't a lot of dirt and
mud, so it's hard to collect footprint

459
00:27:15.799 --> 00:27:22.279
evidence there. The overwhelming amount of
just personal accounts, you know, I've

460
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:25.720
had rocks thrown at me. Is
that evidence? I don't know. I

461
00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:29.000
mean a rock was thrown at me, a rock was thrown at several people.

462
00:27:29.359 --> 00:27:32.839
I think Tag seven is gotta be
just, you know, head and

463
00:27:32.920 --> 00:27:36.880
shoulders, the most important thing that's
been collected in Area X and and maybe

464
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:41.640
I think one of the most important
pieces of evidence collected with regards to what

465
00:27:41.720 --> 00:27:45.079
apes just ever, because again this
is an animal. The way this tag

466
00:27:45.160 --> 00:27:48.039
was situated, you know, the
way that the testing that was done,

467
00:27:48.200 --> 00:27:52.640
on the way that the tag was
actually affixed then how it would affix itself

468
00:27:52.680 --> 00:27:56.440
to fur, and we tested it
or I didn't have meaning to do with

469
00:27:56.480 --> 00:28:00.880
it, but it was tested on
on feathers, you know, So it

470
00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:03.000
wasn't a bird. It couldn't have
been an animal that was under six feet

471
00:28:03.039 --> 00:28:06.359
tall, because it was at least
six feet high up on the ground.

472
00:28:06.359 --> 00:28:10.160
I mean, that was an ape
that got tagged. Not only is it

473
00:28:10.200 --> 00:28:14.440
the first time I think that an
animal tagged itself. You know, we've

474
00:28:15.079 --> 00:28:18.000
when this happened, I did a
search for that. Never seen an account

475
00:28:18.000 --> 00:28:22.400
of that before. You know,
usually when you're radio tagging animals, you're

476
00:28:22.759 --> 00:28:26.359
literally catching them and sticking it on
them and then letting them go. But

477
00:28:26.400 --> 00:28:30.640
you're talking about turtles usually things like
that, not you know, eight foot

478
00:28:30.640 --> 00:28:34.599
tall bipedal apes. This animal not
only tagged itself, but we collected data

479
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:38.759
for months and months and months.
That data I think is just really critically

480
00:28:38.799 --> 00:28:44.839
important. It definitely shows a range
for this animal and it was over several

481
00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.039
months from summer through winter. So
I think that has to be the most

482
00:28:48.079 --> 00:28:52.759
important data that the NAWAC has ever
collected. You know, as many cameras

483
00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:56.440
as they've deployed, as have been
deployed by people all across the country.

484
00:28:56.720 --> 00:29:00.480
I mean, I've never seen a
super compelling photo of a wood ape off

485
00:29:00.480 --> 00:29:03.799
of a game camp, one that
would make someone who was on the fence,

486
00:29:03.960 --> 00:29:07.079
you know, get off the fence. We've recorded lots of audio down

487
00:29:07.119 --> 00:29:11.240
there, not only the NWBAC,
but the folks that I'm going in there

488
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:15.640
with. We've got some really interesting
audio whoops and things like that, howls,

489
00:29:15.559 --> 00:29:18.839
it's more of the same, you
know, those whoops and howls have

490
00:29:18.920 --> 00:29:22.079
been recorded all over the place.
If the folks in the Olympic Peninsula and

491
00:29:22.119 --> 00:29:26.119
the really terrific work they're doing recording
audio and just gathering evidence of nests and

492
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.559
things isn't going to move a needle, then really kind of tag seven doesn't

493
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.680
do it. You start to have
this circumstantial body of evidence that just is

494
00:29:36.759 --> 00:29:42.960
overwhelmingly indicative of an animal, and
you almost have to be obtuse, so

495
00:29:44.079 --> 00:29:45.519
you should not want to believe it
it's true. You know. I recently

496
00:29:45.519 --> 00:29:49.240
heard I think it was on Cliff
and Bobo's podcast. Matt Prutt was talking

497
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:52.920
about how the problem with bigfoot evidence
is that there's no such thing as bigfoot,

498
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:56.000
so any evidence that shows that there
might be Bigfoot can't be true because

499
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:00.000
there was an all big foot,
because this this logical circle that you get

500
00:30:00.039 --> 00:30:03.839
into, and I think that's true. So as much as I respect Daryl

501
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:07.559
and I'm not familiar with why he
made the decision he's made to no longer

502
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:10.640
carry a gun in there and try
to collect a speciman, I do think

503
00:30:10.640 --> 00:30:12.200
that's ultimately how it's going to get
resolved. I don't think it's going to

504
00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:15.960
be another video or a photo or
another footprint crash. I mean, if

505
00:30:17.640 --> 00:30:21.599
you know, guys like Cliff Brackman, haven't you know, cracked the nut

506
00:30:21.640 --> 00:30:23.519
with all the all of the casting
that he's done. That's not going to

507
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:26.119
do it. So I just I
don't know that there is anything that is

508
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:30.720
going to solve this mystery that's going
to answer this question that doesn't involve,

509
00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:34.160
you know, flesh and blood.
I definitely agree, man. That's That's

510
00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.519
something I was talking to Bob about
just the other day when we were talking.

511
00:30:37.640 --> 00:30:41.359
Is I think anybody who goes out
and is really trying to prove that

512
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:44.960
the species is real? And that's
something I want to ask you in just

513
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.720
a second, as far as the
motivation for you I think anybody who goes

514
00:30:48.759 --> 00:30:52.079
out, and I'm not talking about
armshare researchers like me who goes hiking on

515
00:30:52.119 --> 00:30:53.440
my property. I don't carry a
long gun with me. I'm not trying

516
00:30:53.480 --> 00:30:59.039
to take down a Sasquatch. And
I found things here. There's possibly activity

517
00:30:59.039 --> 00:31:00.640
on my property. I found what
I believe to be a footprint just a

518
00:31:00.640 --> 00:31:04.960
couple of weeks ago. So I'm
still up in the air right because i

519
00:31:06.000 --> 00:31:08.680
haven't seen one of these things.
I think any group that goes out and

520
00:31:08.960 --> 00:31:11.960
doesn't keep that in mind, if
you're really trying to move the ball,

521
00:31:12.000 --> 00:31:15.200
and you're really trying to prove the
species, somebody in that group has to

522
00:31:15.240 --> 00:31:21.039
have the intestine a fortitude to say
somebody might have to take this thing down

523
00:31:21.079 --> 00:31:26.519
because science requires what it requires.
Now, having said that, you've had

524
00:31:26.680 --> 00:31:30.440
so many experiences, whether it be
with the nawac out An area ex or

525
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.079
where you're at now, I've asked
this question of a couple of people recently

526
00:31:34.119 --> 00:31:37.960
on the show, because I'm very
curious about it. What motivates you to

527
00:31:38.119 --> 00:31:41.799
go out and continue to go out
in the woods. What is the motivation

528
00:31:41.839 --> 00:31:45.880
for you? What's the end game
for you? Is it to prove the

529
00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:49.480
species to have more experiences. Is
it to move that ball for everybody else?

530
00:31:49.519 --> 00:31:53.119
What's the motivation for you? It's
interesting because it's changed over the years.

531
00:31:53.240 --> 00:31:56.960
You know. At first, when
I first started going into the woods,

532
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:00.480
this was before I went to Oklahoma
for the first time and met all

533
00:32:00.519 --> 00:32:04.519
those guys, I was just like
super super curious, you know, sort

534
00:32:04.559 --> 00:32:07.480
of like you like, I believe
that the preponderance of evidence suggested that this

535
00:32:07.519 --> 00:32:10.039
animal existed, but I didn't know
for a fact that it was real,

536
00:32:10.599 --> 00:32:14.079
and so I was going out there
to just try to, you know,

537
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:15.920
see for myself and have a good
time. It was. It was camping

538
00:32:15.920 --> 00:32:19.400
with a little bit of player,
you know, just because there was you

539
00:32:19.400 --> 00:32:22.559
know, there might be a big
old monkey beametry or something. Then getting

540
00:32:22.559 --> 00:32:25.359
into Area X and learning the apes
there, I think that my my sort

541
00:32:25.400 --> 00:32:30.279
of personal motivation became I just wanted
everyone to know about this, you know,

542
00:32:30.319 --> 00:32:32.400
So all of the podcast that I
did, all of the stuff that

543
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:36.279
I did, it was always about
trying to educate people. And then in

544
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:38.839
that way, I was really sort
of inspired by the work of people like

545
00:32:38.920 --> 00:32:42.599
John Green, who I think that's
what his life work was all about,

546
00:32:42.680 --> 00:32:45.119
just trying to educate people. And
so in some small way, I'm not

547
00:32:45.200 --> 00:32:49.160
comparing myself to John Green, but
in some small way, I was sort

548
00:32:49.160 --> 00:32:52.599
of following in his footsteps and just
wanting to get as much information as about

549
00:32:52.640 --> 00:32:57.480
these things out there as possible.
So my personal motivation sort of shifted from

550
00:32:57.480 --> 00:33:01.039
being sort of just interested in the
topic from like a popular culture standpoint,

551
00:33:01.319 --> 00:33:05.359
to being more interested in the topic, from like I want people to know

552
00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:07.160
about these things, And especially once
I started having my own encounters and I

553
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:12.200
knew for a fact that they were
real, I really wanted to sort of

554
00:33:12.319 --> 00:33:15.079
protect their habitat. And I know
that there's some people just cannot wrap their

555
00:33:15.079 --> 00:33:17.160
head around the fact, like you
think one should be collected as a specimen,

556
00:33:17.160 --> 00:33:20.039
but you're trying to protect them,
like, well, that's how it

557
00:33:20.039 --> 00:33:22.640
works. You know, that's how
science work. You're not talking about the

558
00:33:22.680 --> 00:33:25.599
individuals, You're talking about population,
and so I wanted them protected as a

559
00:33:25.640 --> 00:33:30.440
population. You know, now I'm
in a much smaller group now, and

560
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:34.279
you know we don't have private land
operate on. I think that my personal

561
00:33:34.319 --> 00:33:37.720
motivation I've really shifted. Keep thinking
about this thing that Rick Nol said to

562
00:33:37.720 --> 00:33:40.680
me a long long time ago,
you know, I asked him what he

563
00:33:40.680 --> 00:33:44.559
would do if he ever saw one, because at that point he had not

564
00:33:44.599 --> 00:33:45.920
seen one. I'm not sure if
he has up to this point, but

565
00:33:46.000 --> 00:33:49.440
he had not seen one. And
this was back in life, you know,

566
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.319
the early two thousands. And he
said he would just I'm paraphrasing,

567
00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:53.839
but he said, I'll probably just
like disappear. I'll just stop doing you

568
00:33:53.880 --> 00:33:57.000
know, I'll go quiet, because
like he just wanted to see one.

569
00:33:57.039 --> 00:33:59.759
That was his whole thing for doing
it right. And at this point,

570
00:34:00.160 --> 00:34:02.000
the reason I go out is I'm
still interested in talking to people like I'm

571
00:34:02.039 --> 00:34:05.799
talking to you right. I still
want people to understand about this subject.

572
00:34:05.880 --> 00:34:08.880
I still want people to know that
there's something in it, that these animals

573
00:34:08.880 --> 00:34:13.800
are real. But I also know
that what I'm capable of doing now is

574
00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:15.840
really it's more personal. You know. I go out there. I go

575
00:34:15.880 --> 00:34:20.199
out there for the fellowship, to
boot my friends. I go out there

576
00:34:20.199 --> 00:34:22.679
to be in nature. I really
like being in nature, camping, that

577
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.719
sort of thing. And I just
want to keep having experiences. I want

578
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:29.280
to know, occasionally see an apor
here, an ape for smell and ap

579
00:34:29.360 --> 00:34:31.880
or have a rock thrown at me
I mean, so it's become much more

580
00:34:31.960 --> 00:34:36.559
personal, I think because I've gotten
older and as things have just evolved around

581
00:34:36.639 --> 00:34:38.480
me. That's a good answer,
man. I appreciate it, and that's

582
00:34:38.639 --> 00:34:43.119
something I ask myself every day.
You know. I started doing the show

583
00:34:43.159 --> 00:34:45.960
for the very same reason that you
did. I wanted to educate people and

584
00:34:45.079 --> 00:34:50.920
myself and connect with people who had
had experiences that hopefully I could learn from

585
00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:53.480
and I could collect data in a
way that I can archive. I sort

586
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:58.599
of consider myself an archivist in a
way, because everybody I talked to who

587
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:02.239
has had an experience is it's out
there in perpetuity forever. Once the episode

588
00:35:02.320 --> 00:35:08.039
airs, anybody can listen to it
compare it to their own experiences or experiences

589
00:35:08.039 --> 00:35:12.519
that happened fifteen twenty years ago.
And that's one of the things that just

590
00:35:12.639 --> 00:35:16.559
keeps me coming back, is putting
those dots together and talking to people and

591
00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:20.599
listening to what happened to them,
and what happened to you in Oklahoma,

592
00:35:20.840 --> 00:35:24.719
happened to someone in Louisiana, very
similar things, right I think about you

593
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:29.360
know, way back in the day
when I first started the forums and that

594
00:35:29.400 --> 00:35:30.800
sort of thing, for me,
it was like trying to convince people that

595
00:35:30.840 --> 00:35:34.880
I wasn't crazy, you know,
that there was a real good reason to

596
00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:37.719
be interested in this subject, and
that I wasn't nuts. And then what's

597
00:35:37.719 --> 00:35:43.280
really interesting to me is as I
became more certain that these animals were real,

598
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:46.039
once I started to have experiences and
saw them and smelled them and heard

599
00:35:46.039 --> 00:35:50.840
them and all that sort of thing, my interest in trying to convince someone

600
00:35:50.920 --> 00:35:53.320
who didn't believe, you know,
trying to argue with a skeptic, I

601
00:35:53.400 --> 00:35:57.239
became less and less interested in that
over time, which is not the thing

602
00:35:57.239 --> 00:36:00.320
that I expected to happen. At
this point, I don't care. I

603
00:36:00.360 --> 00:36:02.000
don't care if you don't believe me. I don't care if you think that

604
00:36:02.079 --> 00:36:05.960
anyone who goes out look at her
big foot is nuts. It doesn't matter

605
00:36:06.039 --> 00:36:07.760
to me. Think what you want
to think. But I know what I

606
00:36:07.840 --> 00:36:12.719
know, I know what I've experienced, and I'm just trying to experience it

607
00:36:12.760 --> 00:36:15.320
again, you know what I'm saying. So it's a real evolution. I

608
00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:16.679
think. I think it's really And
I remember when folks used to show up

609
00:36:16.679 --> 00:36:21.199
on the forum and they've had an
experience and they would say something like that.

610
00:36:21.239 --> 00:36:22.920
They would say like I don't care
if you believe me. I'm like,

611
00:36:22.920 --> 00:36:25.000
how could you not care if someone
believes you like that? It's like,

612
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:28.480
it didn't make any sense to me, But now I totally get it.

613
00:36:28.920 --> 00:36:30.639
I'm right there with him. Let's
take a left turn here for a

614
00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:32.960
second. I didn't even have this
written down to talk about, but it's

615
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.639
fresh on my mind because it's been
sort of a thing that I've been dealing

616
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:40.239
with recently, and somebody who has
done as much as you have in this

617
00:36:40.519 --> 00:36:45.559
research, I'm curious about how you
handle this because I'm having a difficult time

618
00:36:45.760 --> 00:36:50.280
dealing with what people call who was
it yesterday? Tell me they don't talk

619
00:36:50.280 --> 00:36:52.039
about it. They don't talk about
woo anymore. They call it high strangeness.

620
00:36:52.119 --> 00:36:57.000
I was a guest on another podcast, discover Sasquatching. Chris was like,

621
00:36:57.239 --> 00:37:00.159
I don't call it woo. I'll
call it high strangeness because I've experienced

622
00:37:00.159 --> 00:37:05.400
that recently with some of the people
I've interviewed. You know, I've talked

623
00:37:05.440 --> 00:37:07.639
about it on the show already.
There was a guy interviewed that started out

624
00:37:07.639 --> 00:37:13.199
with a very what seems to be
a mundane just seeing an eight foot ape

625
00:37:13.199 --> 00:37:16.320
in the woods, that's not supposed
to exist. That turned into a situation

626
00:37:16.360 --> 00:37:21.320
where he claims to have sex with
a female sasquatch during his encounter. That's

627
00:37:21.360 --> 00:37:23.840
pretty high strangeness as far as I'm
concerned when it comes to a big foot

628
00:37:23.920 --> 00:37:28.840
encounter. And you know, I'm
looking this guy in the eyes and he

629
00:37:29.079 --> 00:37:32.519
is as serious as a heart attack
telling me this story. It's very cathartic

630
00:37:32.559 --> 00:37:36.840
for him. He's unburdening himself and
telling me this story. I had a

631
00:37:36.840 --> 00:37:39.840
conversation with I don't know if you're
familiar with Henry Franzoni a couple of days

632
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:45.639
ago. Henry has had some weird
shit happened to him. There's some things

633
00:37:45.639 --> 00:37:47.360
that he wouldn't even tell me because
he's He literally said, I'm not going

634
00:37:47.400 --> 00:37:51.559
to put it out here because people
think I'm crazy enough already. I'm not

635
00:37:51.599 --> 00:37:54.360
going to tell you everything that's happened
to me. So as a person who

636
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:58.760
goes in looking for woodapes, we're
not even talking. You guys don't even

637
00:37:58.800 --> 00:38:01.760
call him sasquatch bigfoot. You guys
call them wood apes because that's what you

638
00:38:01.800 --> 00:38:06.440
believe that they are. Yeah,
if they exist at all, I think

639
00:38:06.559 --> 00:38:09.280
we're on the same track with the
wood ape. Matt and I've had conversations,

640
00:38:09.360 --> 00:38:13.639
numerous conversations about that over the years. I said all that to say,

641
00:38:13.760 --> 00:38:16.079
how do you handle that as a
researcher, as an investigator, whatever

642
00:38:16.079 --> 00:38:20.679
you want to call it, just
for yourself? How do you look at

643
00:38:20.679 --> 00:38:25.559
those experiences that people convey and compare
them to what you've experienced in other people

644
00:38:25.639 --> 00:38:30.559
experience? How do you separate the
high strangeness or do you separate it from

645
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:35.880
just regular, let's say, Area
X encounters with wood apes. Yeah,

646
00:38:36.000 --> 00:38:38.360
it used to really bother me again
because I was so invested in trying to

647
00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:43.760
can demonstrate that I was in nuts
for believing this that when people said crazy

648
00:38:43.800 --> 00:38:45.440
things like they've had sexts with Bigfoot, and again I don't know this guy.

649
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:47.400
I'm just like, hey, like, why would you want to?

650
00:38:47.519 --> 00:38:52.000
I guess the like question number one. But let's just get past that for

651
00:38:52.039 --> 00:38:55.079
a second. It used to really
bother me. And now what's interesting about

652
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.840
this is unless you're having the experience, if I'm telling you what I experienced,

653
00:39:00.159 --> 00:39:01.760
you know, if I'm relating to
you, you're not. You're you're

654
00:39:01.800 --> 00:39:07.000
hearing, Like, how my brain
what my brain did with that? And

655
00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:09.239
we're really complicated animals. And I
will say that the first time you see

656
00:39:09.280 --> 00:39:14.559
an eight, even like for me, I was so close, one hundred

657
00:39:14.559 --> 00:39:16.039
percent sure that they were there before
I saw one, it did. I

658
00:39:16.079 --> 00:39:19.800
was on the boat right, totally
bought it, and then I saw one.

659
00:39:20.519 --> 00:39:24.639
And there's been a couple of times
when when I especially towards the beginning,

660
00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:29.119
when I would see one, where
it was really like, it does

661
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:32.880
things to your head, right,
because you're seeing this animal that is a

662
00:39:32.920 --> 00:39:37.480
myth, it is it is a
legend, right, it's a monster,

663
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:42.119
and you're seeing it, and even
if you think you're prepared, you're not

664
00:39:42.159 --> 00:39:44.840
prepared. And this is my the
advice I give to people who go out

665
00:39:44.880 --> 00:39:46.440
there for the first time, Like
you're not ready. You think you're ready,

666
00:39:46.480 --> 00:39:49.840
You're not ready to see this thing. The first time you see it.

667
00:39:49.840 --> 00:39:52.519
You're going to be an idiot.
You're gonna do something stupid. First

668
00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:54.280
time I saw an eight, I
did something stupid like it like, you're

669
00:39:54.280 --> 00:39:58.880
just not ready for it. And
so I think what I'm what I'm trying

670
00:39:58.880 --> 00:40:01.760
to get at, is everybody's going
to react to differently. I think we're

671
00:40:01.840 --> 00:40:07.440
very complicated creatures inside our own heads, And I think that the enormity of

672
00:40:07.559 --> 00:40:10.320
having one of these experiences it can
mess with you, you know. And

673
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:15.360
I think that there's also an aspect
of it that it seems like if they're

674
00:40:15.360 --> 00:40:21.519
real, I know they are,
They're just animals. How Come we can't

675
00:40:21.519 --> 00:40:23.559
get a picture of one. How
come they're so hard to see? How

676
00:40:23.639 --> 00:40:27.000
come they can sneak up on you
the way they do? How come they

677
00:40:27.000 --> 00:40:30.400
can move so fast? Like our
frame of reference, especially as modern humans,

678
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:36.039
is not one that allows us to
understand those things very well. You

679
00:40:36.079 --> 00:40:37.920
know. I will say, and
I've said it before, that these animals

680
00:40:37.960 --> 00:40:43.239
are just faster than you can imagine. They're faster than you can imagine.

681
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:45.679
They can move so quickly. And
I say that to you, I say

682
00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:47.280
like, no, they're really fast, and they think, Okay, they're

683
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:50.320
fast. I'm like, no,
dude, they're faster than you think they

684
00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.559
are. They are a blur.
They're so fast. They're so fast that

685
00:40:52.639 --> 00:40:59.119
if you were on the edge of
believing anything about them being supernatural, that

686
00:40:59.199 --> 00:41:00.679
might put you over the You might
go, yeah, no animal can move

687
00:41:00.719 --> 00:41:06.679
like that. And sometimes they can
move and make no noise at all.

688
00:41:07.000 --> 00:41:08.679
I have no idea how they do
this. Sometimes they move in there ridiculously

689
00:41:08.679 --> 00:41:14.639
loud, but sometimes they're super quiet, so they're moving. They're really smooth

690
00:41:14.679 --> 00:41:17.559
when they run because of their way
their bodies work, and the biomechanics of

691
00:41:17.599 --> 00:41:21.679
their move that they don't move up
and down like you and I do.

692
00:41:21.719 --> 00:41:24.119
They don't move like a bear.
They're very smooth, they're very fast.

693
00:41:24.239 --> 00:41:29.239
They can be deadly quiet. They
can just disappear, and some people think

694
00:41:29.239 --> 00:41:31.320
they literally do because to them that's
what it looks like. It looks like

695
00:41:31.360 --> 00:41:35.559
they just literally disappeared. Well,
I've been out in the woods that I've

696
00:41:35.599 --> 00:41:38.719
seen deer and they've literally disappeared in
front of me. I know they didn't,

697
00:41:38.840 --> 00:41:42.000
you know, I just don't know
where they went. And that's what

698
00:41:42.039 --> 00:41:45.639
these animals do too. So I
guess what I'm saying is we're just not

699
00:41:45.719 --> 00:41:49.760
prepared as modern humans to understand how
animals in the woods work. We're not

700
00:41:49.840 --> 00:41:52.400
prepared to understand how an eight foot
tall animal can sneak up on us like

701
00:41:52.440 --> 00:41:55.880
that. And I think for some
people the easiest way to explain all that

702
00:41:57.239 --> 00:42:01.559
is to allow themselves to go places
that make no sense to some of us.

703
00:42:01.880 --> 00:42:05.320
I'm not going to throw stones and
I live in a glass house.

704
00:42:05.400 --> 00:42:07.159
Right, I've said I've seen Bigfoot
twelve times, right, So I'm not

705
00:42:07.159 --> 00:42:10.840
going to throw stones at these folks. But I'm just trying to explain somehow

706
00:42:12.239 --> 00:42:15.400
what might get you to a place
like that where you might actually believe that

707
00:42:15.440 --> 00:42:16.400
you had sex with the big Foot. Well, think Craty. You can

708
00:42:16.440 --> 00:42:20.280
tell a guy and you could see
it in his eyes that he really believes

709
00:42:20.320 --> 00:42:22.800
it. I'm not going to argue
with him, you know what I'm saying,

710
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:24.599
Like, it's just what's the point. Stay tuned for more Sasquatch out

711
00:42:24.599 --> 00:42:31.360
to see. We'll be right back
after these messages. Yeah, I agree,

712
00:42:31.360 --> 00:42:35.239
man, And that's a fair answer. It's kind of subjective, like

713
00:42:35.280 --> 00:42:37.079
everything else that we're really talking about. For the most part with these things

714
00:42:37.159 --> 00:42:42.000
is I've often wondered, and I'm
actually trying to put together a show now

715
00:42:42.000 --> 00:42:44.679
with some mental health professionals that are
fans of the show, some of them

716
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:47.199
have been guests on the show that
have a background in mental health, to

717
00:42:47.280 --> 00:42:52.880
talk about why some of these things
happen. Do I believe all Bigfoot is

718
00:42:52.360 --> 00:42:57.320
a mass hallucination? Absolutely not.
Do I believe some people make up their

719
00:42:57.360 --> 00:43:00.480
stories? I do right. I
believe like some oaxers, I believe people

720
00:43:00.599 --> 00:43:06.800
have real experiences, like you said, and maybe the brain processes it in

721
00:43:06.840 --> 00:43:10.239
a different way than most of us
might and it becomes more fantastical and it

722
00:43:10.280 --> 00:43:15.599
gets added to overtime. Again.
I have everybody on the show to share

723
00:43:15.639 --> 00:43:17.599
their experiences, and it is your
experience. I say that all the time.

724
00:43:17.920 --> 00:43:22.599
I do not sit in judgment of
anybody's experience, no matter how highly

725
00:43:22.800 --> 00:43:25.760
strange it might be. I want
to convey that to everybody. It is

726
00:43:25.760 --> 00:43:30.880
your experience. I haven't aired the
episode with the sex with the Sasquatch because

727
00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.960
I'm afraid that people won't take it
so well. This is a serious show.

728
00:43:36.280 --> 00:43:39.239
We try to cover serious things and
approach the subject in the right way.

729
00:43:39.920 --> 00:43:43.800
Here's an example of the weird way
our brain works. And this is

730
00:43:43.840 --> 00:43:46.719
my own personal experience. When Brandon
and I had our jewel at the thermals

731
00:43:46.719 --> 00:43:49.719
and he was seeing the animal down
low and I saw the one up on

732
00:43:49.760 --> 00:43:52.440
the slope. The thing that I
didn't tell you about that but I have

733
00:43:52.559 --> 00:43:58.280
related this in publicly before, but
I would not even write that down in

734
00:43:58.440 --> 00:44:00.880
our log. You know, the
way that we operate out there as you

735
00:44:00.920 --> 00:44:02.559
write everything down. We have these
journals, and I think it's super important.

736
00:44:02.599 --> 00:44:05.719
If you're going in the woods and
you're looking for what aps, write

737
00:44:05.880 --> 00:44:08.079
everything down, when it happened,
the time that had happened, all the

738
00:44:08.079 --> 00:44:12.760
conditions. It's really important. But
when we were sitting there, I had

739
00:44:12.800 --> 00:44:15.800
that visual and it was clearly an
ape, and my hair stop on the

740
00:44:15.800 --> 00:44:19.519
back of my neck. I refuse
to write it down. I don't know

741
00:44:19.559 --> 00:44:22.559
why. I don't, like,
in my mind there was something happening in

742
00:44:22.599 --> 00:44:27.960
my head that would not accept that
what I just saw had happened. It

743
00:44:28.000 --> 00:44:31.199
wasn't until the next day then I'm
like, Okay, that happened, and

744
00:44:31.239 --> 00:44:35.159
I felt comfortable, and again,
like dude, I had already seen what

745
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:37.159
ape like. This was not my
first rodeo, right, I've been coming

746
00:44:37.199 --> 00:44:40.159
into the valley for a couple of
years. At that point, I can't

747
00:44:40.199 --> 00:44:44.079
explain it. I can't explain what
happened. If it had been me and

748
00:44:44.159 --> 00:44:46.159
one other person, it would have
been one of the what I think is

749
00:44:46.159 --> 00:44:51.239
probably the majority of encounters never would
have been reported, never would have been

750
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:54.400
heard by anyone, because I would
not have accepted it. And for whatever

751
00:44:54.440 --> 00:44:59.159
reason, my mind was rejecting that
visual that encounter that I had, it

752
00:44:59.239 --> 00:45:02.559
just would accept it. That's just
the kind of weird crap that our brains

753
00:45:02.599 --> 00:45:05.880
do to us. Like I said, it wasn't until the next day that

754
00:45:05.920 --> 00:45:07.599
I was able to really come to
grips with what I had seen. That

755
00:45:07.599 --> 00:45:10.840
doesn't make any sense to me.
It just doesn't make any sense. Similarly,

756
00:45:12.000 --> 00:45:15.679
I think the first time I actually
saw an ape was through night vision.

757
00:45:15.119 --> 00:45:17.519
It was at the end of a
clearing. It was maybe you know,

758
00:45:17.679 --> 00:45:22.320
thirty yards away from me, and
I saw the silhouette of the thing,

759
00:45:22.559 --> 00:45:24.440
sort of like the head and one
side of it. The rest of

760
00:45:24.440 --> 00:45:29.000
it was in the trees. And
I didn't say anything to anyone. I

761
00:45:29.079 --> 00:45:31.239
just went and sat down in my
chair like I didn't say anything. It

762
00:45:31.360 --> 00:45:34.880
just because again it just like it
was. It was too much. It

763
00:45:34.920 --> 00:45:37.519
was too much for me. And
this is why I know for a fact

764
00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:39.199
the first time you see when you're
not ready for it, because I was

765
00:45:39.280 --> 00:45:43.760
there to see what apes and I
saw one and it just freaked me out

766
00:45:43.760 --> 00:45:45.039
too much. I didn't go towards
it. I didn't do a damn thing.

767
00:45:45.079 --> 00:45:46.920
I didn't put a light on it. I just like, oh,

768
00:45:46.960 --> 00:45:52.199
Okay, I turned around that I
said in a good chair. What you

769
00:45:52.280 --> 00:45:53.920
just said makes a whole lot of
sense to me, because I tell you

770
00:45:53.960 --> 00:45:57.679
I may have said something about this
on the show before. I can't remember

771
00:45:58.119 --> 00:46:00.239
it all starts to run together and
become a bull after so many episodes.

772
00:46:00.320 --> 00:46:05.360
But I can tell you that makes
sense because as a police officer, one

773
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:09.079
of the things that I was involved
in a couple of shootings on duty.

774
00:46:09.199 --> 00:46:12.480
I was shot out a couple of
times. I never had to fire my

775
00:46:12.519 --> 00:46:15.280
weapon, I never had to shoot
anybody. But I had a really close

776
00:46:15.280 --> 00:46:17.880
friend of mine who was involved in
an officer involved shooting and they had to

777
00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:22.800
take a suspect down, and I
was literally seconds pulling up on the scene,

778
00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:25.440
and one of the things that I
did with him was pulled him aside,

779
00:46:25.440 --> 00:46:29.880
immediately ask him a couple of questions
and tell him to go sit in

780
00:46:29.880 --> 00:46:31.559
my patrol car and tell them not
to speak to anybody, because one of

781
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:34.880
the things that we were trained to
do as a police officer. If you're

782
00:46:34.920 --> 00:46:38.239
involved in a really high stress situation
like that, your brain does exactly what

783
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:44.400
you just described, and it completely
shuts down and omits half of what you

784
00:46:44.480 --> 00:46:49.159
see and most of everything you hear
and all your other senses just kind of

785
00:46:49.159 --> 00:46:52.239
go out the window. One of
the things that we were always taught in

786
00:46:52.280 --> 00:46:54.400
the academy. If you're involved in
a situation like that, particularly in an

787
00:46:54.400 --> 00:46:58.800
officer involved shooting, you do not
give a statement for at least one to

788
00:46:58.840 --> 00:47:02.920
two, possibly three sleep cycles after
that incident, before you can actually sit

789
00:47:04.000 --> 00:47:08.159
down and be able to mentally and
cognitively recall every detail and be able to

790
00:47:08.159 --> 00:47:12.159
give an account of what happened.
So I think that's a really important thing

791
00:47:12.239 --> 00:47:15.800
for bigfoot researchers as well. It's
process what you saw, think about what

792
00:47:15.840 --> 00:47:20.920
you saw, keep it to yourself, and have a sleep cycle or two,

793
00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.840
and then try to recall what you
saw in your case convince yourself that

794
00:47:24.840 --> 00:47:29.639
that's really what happened. So I
think that's a really good point that you

795
00:47:29.719 --> 00:47:31.800
brought up. I want to be
respectful of your time, but I definitely

796
00:47:31.800 --> 00:47:36.840
want to get into this. Most
people have probably heard the episode that I

797
00:47:36.880 --> 00:47:39.159
did recently. I've been trying to
get Rob Blow on the show to talk

798
00:47:39.199 --> 00:47:44.280
about Bigfoot for months now, and
I know you got to spend some time

799
00:47:44.280 --> 00:47:49.119
with him out of Area X and
I actually read a brilliant synopsis of that

800
00:47:49.719 --> 00:47:52.920
interaction that you wrote. I read
it out on the air a couple of

801
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:57.719
weeks back. Would you entertain us
with that and recount that time when Rob

802
00:47:57.760 --> 00:48:00.559
Blow and those guys came to town
an Area X. What happened during that

803
00:48:00.639 --> 00:48:04.800
situation. It was amazing. You
know, they reached out. This is

804
00:48:04.840 --> 00:48:07.320
back when I was still in the
NAAC and I was on the Border directors,

805
00:48:07.320 --> 00:48:10.760
and they had reached out multiple times
trying to get us. I think

806
00:48:10.800 --> 00:48:15.639
that either Rob or one of his
kids had seen the monograph that the group

807
00:48:15.679 --> 00:48:17.480
put out, and so they were
aware of maybe they'd listened to some of

808
00:48:17.480 --> 00:48:20.719
the podcasts or something, so they
were aware of what we were doing,

809
00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.559
and they really badly wanted to be
in Area X with us. So they

810
00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:28.000
kept persisting, and you know,
we finally negotiated, Okay, fine,

811
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:30.320
you give us a donation to the
group. And they also, oh,

812
00:48:30.400 --> 00:48:35.079
they finally like said they weren't telling
people when they were setting up the shows

813
00:48:35.079 --> 00:48:37.199
and who was on the show,
but they said, look, this is

814
00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:39.159
Rob Blow, and he's like he's
really serious in this subject, like he

815
00:48:39.239 --> 00:48:43.039
really you know, he's been thinking
about Bigfoot for a whole long time,

816
00:48:43.159 --> 00:48:45.679
right, So anyway, we finally
said, okay, fine, give us

817
00:48:45.679 --> 00:48:47.760
a donation to the group and we'll
take you in there. And they showed

818
00:48:47.840 --> 00:48:51.519
up. It was like they were
like God, they were like six different

819
00:48:51.559 --> 00:48:53.119
vehicles. They just come pouring out
like the Marines, right like. We

820
00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:55.639
didn't know what to expect. We
thought maybe they'd show up. They hired

821
00:48:55.639 --> 00:48:59.800
them. We start filming whatever.
You know, these guys like the cruise

822
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:02.119
up, the cameras are on,
the mics are up, and then you

823
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:07.599
know, Rob and his two sons
show up in this forward raptor seff one

824
00:49:07.719 --> 00:49:10.320
fifty raptor and they come out and
we are filming immediately, no introductions known,

825
00:49:10.360 --> 00:49:13.199
nothing, so that when you see
it on the show, it was

826
00:49:13.239 --> 00:49:15.119
saying like hey, Rop, that's
literally when we're meeting Rob Blow and his

827
00:49:15.199 --> 00:49:19.480
kids. It was super freaky.
And then we took him in. We

828
00:49:19.480 --> 00:49:22.239
took him into the woods. We
didn't take him into Area X proper,

829
00:49:22.280 --> 00:49:23.440
just because it's really hard to get
into. We took him into the valley

830
00:49:23.480 --> 00:49:27.400
next door, which is where I
spend most of my time now. It

831
00:49:27.480 --> 00:49:29.840
was so weird, you know you're
in there. I remember we're driving down

832
00:49:29.880 --> 00:49:35.360
this forest road and there's like,
you know, multiple camper vans because you

833
00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.960
know they have to have their dressing
rooms. And like seriously, it was

834
00:49:37.000 --> 00:49:40.679
a caravan of like six or eight
vehicles plus our trucks, so there's probably

835
00:49:42.239 --> 00:49:45.519
ten vehicles in this caravan. And
there was this family on ATVs driving by

836
00:49:45.559 --> 00:49:47.960
and they were looking at us like
we were the circus or something like they

837
00:49:47.960 --> 00:49:52.039
were not expecting to see this whole
like string of cars coming through these you

838
00:49:52.079 --> 00:49:55.400
know, old deserted forest roads.
Anyway, we set up, we went

839
00:49:55.440 --> 00:49:59.480
in there and on the way in
the road going in there, there's one

840
00:49:59.480 --> 00:50:04.400
part of pt through it is absolutely
horrible and we found like a nut crushing

841
00:50:04.440 --> 00:50:07.320
station. We found And it might
look like it's like something we'd prepped for

842
00:50:07.320 --> 00:50:09.840
the show or something, it's not
like we were driving along and I don't

843
00:50:09.840 --> 00:50:14.079
remember who spotted it first. It
wasn't me, but somebody spotted it out

844
00:50:14.079 --> 00:50:15.239
of the side of the car,
and and that's what it was. It

845
00:50:15.599 --> 00:50:20.199
is a It is a thing that
we found many times in in those valleys,

846
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:22.119
is you know you'll find a big
rock with a little rock on top,

847
00:50:22.119 --> 00:50:25.199
and underneath the rock there's like the
remains of nuts because you know,

848
00:50:25.360 --> 00:50:29.719
like chimpanzees do the same thing,
but we showed him that and it's just,

849
00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:31.199
you know, you're sitting there and
like, I don't remember if that

850
00:50:31.239 --> 00:50:34.119
made it in the show or not. I think it might have, and

851
00:50:34.480 --> 00:50:37.760
I'm like, I'm talking to Rob
Lowe about this, you know, like

852
00:50:37.800 --> 00:50:40.719
this guy was on West Wing,
he was on some of my favorite movies

853
00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:44.840
in the eighties. And there was
another seat another bit later on where we're

854
00:50:45.199 --> 00:50:47.000
I got to walk with him,
you know, in this loop that we

855
00:50:47.079 --> 00:50:52.039
did and I am walking with Rob
low We they just took a while for

856
00:50:52.079 --> 00:50:55.320
me to like, really, you
know, rock what was happening. But

857
00:50:55.360 --> 00:51:00.519
I remember the reason why I wrote
that specifically was because there was a moment.

858
00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.960
It was Rob and I and the
sound guy and Brandon Brandon Lentz,

859
00:51:06.079 --> 00:51:07.360
I think it was just the four
of us and we were walking along and

860
00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:12.119
we heard two whoops. We heard
a whoop on one side of the creek

861
00:51:12.159 --> 00:51:15.199
behind us, and it was responded
there was a turn call across the creek,

862
00:51:15.239 --> 00:51:19.800
and they were beautiful whoops, just
gibbon whoops. Exactly what you google

863
00:51:19.840 --> 00:51:22.880
boop, gibbon whoop. It was
exactly what it was. They were gorgeous

864
00:51:22.920 --> 00:51:27.480
whoops, And there was some confusion
because we were kind of lost. I

865
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:29.760
was literally the first time I had
been in that part of the valley.

866
00:51:29.800 --> 00:51:30.920
I had no idea where I was, and for some reason, I was

867
00:51:31.000 --> 00:51:35.679
leading, you know, this Hollywood
celebrity biblical woods, and I didn't know

868
00:51:35.719 --> 00:51:38.079
where I was. So we were
kind of lost, and we came around

869
00:51:38.079 --> 00:51:43.880
a corner and there was Mike May's
and I think Rob had gotten confused because

870
00:51:44.239 --> 00:51:46.320
he had asked Mike if that was
him that made the whoops. Now that's

871
00:51:46.360 --> 00:51:50.599
not how anybody in that group operated
back when I was in it, Like,

872
00:51:50.639 --> 00:51:52.880
we didn't do that to each other. We weren't trying to to trick

873
00:51:52.920 --> 00:51:57.719
one another. So I didn't have
any doubt in my mind that it wasn't

874
00:51:57.840 --> 00:52:00.480
real what we heard. But Rob
didn't know that, so he asked Mike

875
00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:05.280
if it was him, and I
think he misunderstood Mike that it was him

876
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:07.800
though it wasn't. So if you
watched the show, the way they edited

877
00:52:07.840 --> 00:52:12.719
the show is they edited it so
that the Rob was correct, you know,

878
00:52:12.760 --> 00:52:16.039
they edited so that Rob's misunderstanding didn't, you know, confuse anyone.

879
00:52:16.400 --> 00:52:20.519
And I didn't think that was right. Because that's not Mike didn't Mike didn't

880
00:52:20.519 --> 00:52:22.320
whoop and he didn't fake us out, but just that that whole that sort

881
00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:25.000
of whooping experience. And then that
and they got it on This is the

882
00:52:25.000 --> 00:52:28.280
thing that drives me, NICs man. They got it on audio. They

883
00:52:28.280 --> 00:52:30.039
got because the audio guy I heard
it back at camp. They got the

884
00:52:30.039 --> 00:52:34.800
whoops on audio. They're beautiful,
they're crystal clear. But they didn't make

885
00:52:34.800 --> 00:52:37.199
the show because they had to sort
of edit it to make it feel like

886
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:40.760
it wasn't real because Rob thought it
wasn't. But yeah, that was a

887
00:52:40.760 --> 00:52:44.840
crazy experience, you know. That
night, at some point the crew had

888
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:47.119
to leave because they were all a
union and the time was up, so

889
00:52:47.599 --> 00:52:52.559
the director took everyone back out and
that was just us and the Lows,

890
00:52:52.679 --> 00:52:54.320
and then the director came back and
then he was doing all of the filming.

891
00:52:54.920 --> 00:52:59.039
And I think it was I forget
which one of the kids it was,

892
00:52:59.119 --> 00:53:04.239
but it was brand and maybe Darryl
and one of the suns, and

893
00:53:04.280 --> 00:53:07.280
they were sort of a little bit
away from camp, and Brandon had a

894
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:12.119
thermal and he saw what we now
know as an ape. At the time,

895
00:53:12.159 --> 00:53:14.280
he didn't he wasn't sure what it
was. He thought it might have

896
00:53:14.360 --> 00:53:16.360
been the director, because the director
was kind of like rolling around and on

897
00:53:16.400 --> 00:53:20.280
the road and stuff. So but
it turns out he saw an He saw

898
00:53:20.280 --> 00:53:22.880
an ape sort of head and shoulders
or this thing through the thermal. So

899
00:53:22.960 --> 00:53:25.400
he had come back to camp and
was telling us the story about how he

900
00:53:25.440 --> 00:53:28.719
had seen it, and then he's
like, where was it? And he

901
00:53:28.760 --> 00:53:30.719
points like right over there. He's
like right over there. He's like right

902
00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:32.719
over there, and where he pointed, like when he pointed over there,

903
00:53:34.119 --> 00:53:37.280
we saw two little points of light
that looked like a shine, and we've

904
00:53:37.320 --> 00:53:40.719
been talking about e shine with them
and that was just like, oh my

905
00:53:40.760 --> 00:53:45.199
god, there's there's an ape right
because that's where he said he saw it,

906
00:53:45.599 --> 00:53:47.760
And as soon as he pointed at
it, we saw this eyeshine like

907
00:53:47.840 --> 00:53:50.960
fast forward. It wasn't I shine. We didn't know what it was at

908
00:53:51.000 --> 00:53:53.400
first because it was like lights in
the woods, which I do have other

909
00:53:53.400 --> 00:53:58.199
stories about at some point. But
it turned out that it was these overlanders

910
00:53:58.199 --> 00:54:00.599
that were coming from an area that
we didn't even think it was possible for

911
00:54:00.599 --> 00:54:04.519
people to be coming from. And
that was just so freaky and weird.

912
00:54:04.559 --> 00:54:07.880
That whole experience I remember one of
one of the low kids in particular,

913
00:54:07.960 --> 00:54:09.400
was super freaked out because we didn't
know what was going on, and we

914
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:12.599
were supposed to be the experts,
and if we were freaked out, he

915
00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:15.000
was super freaked out. Right,
that was just like that. That was

916
00:54:15.039 --> 00:54:20.079
a moment of high strangeness and that
it was completely understandable in retrospect, but

917
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:22.400
at the time it was super duper
weird. But yeah, just hanging out

918
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:25.880
with those guys out there was great. You know, I don't know why

919
00:54:25.960 --> 00:54:29.320
they made that show. It was
a good show. You know, a

920
00:54:29.320 --> 00:54:31.119
lot of the episodes I really really
liked. I think our episode was pretty

921
00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:35.679
good too, though the editing was
was a little suspect, But I don't

922
00:54:35.719 --> 00:54:37.679
blame him. You know, hanging
out with your kids, you know,

923
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:42.360
doing cool shit like that. I
mean that that sounds like that sounds great

924
00:54:42.360 --> 00:54:45.559
to me. I would totally do
that if I had the opportunity. Yeah,

925
00:54:45.599 --> 00:54:46.559
I thought it was a really cool
story. Man. Do you think

926
00:54:46.559 --> 00:54:50.800
he left a believer after he spent
time at Area X, Well, I

927
00:54:50.840 --> 00:54:52.920
think all three of them were.
Yeah, I mean that was my thing.

928
00:54:52.960 --> 00:54:54.239
I mean we heard all kinds of
cool shit that we heard. Whoops

929
00:54:54.280 --> 00:54:58.320
and and sort of like sort of
like you know, sometimes we'll hear this

930
00:54:58.400 --> 00:55:01.519
real low like kind of sound,
and they heard that, you know,

931
00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:06.639
there was the there was Brandon's visual
within the thermal. I don't have any

932
00:55:06.639 --> 00:55:08.679
doubt in my mind that they left
thinking of these apes for real. And

933
00:55:08.800 --> 00:55:12.440
so the funny story is, well
that some of that's funny. But then

934
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:15.719
a couple couple of months later,
I was in I was in LA and

935
00:55:15.960 --> 00:55:19.440
one of his sons. I posted
a picture on Instagram and one of his

936
00:55:19.480 --> 00:55:21.480
sons like, Hey, are you
here? And I'm like yeah, and

937
00:55:21.480 --> 00:55:23.159
I'm like kind of staying at this
and we were staying at the Beverly Hills

938
00:55:23.320 --> 00:55:27.599
Hilton, which is you know,
that's where we were staying. And he's

939
00:55:27.599 --> 00:55:29.480
like, oh, I'm right over
here, like I just come by and

940
00:55:29.480 --> 00:55:30.960
say hi. So I'm with people
I work with, right, I'm with

941
00:55:31.039 --> 00:55:35.280
like two of the people work for
me, so they know about my interests,

942
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:37.639
but this other one didn't work for
me. He had no idea.

943
00:55:37.760 --> 00:55:39.239
So anyway, I'm like, Okay, well, Roblo's kid is gonna come

944
00:55:39.239 --> 00:55:42.920
by for drinks and he's like he
is. I'm like yeah, like I

945
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:45.599
know him, Like how do you
know him, like I met him a

946
00:55:45.599 --> 00:55:46.880
couple of months. I didn't want
to get it right. So then he

947
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:51.440
shows up and we start talking about
stuff. We start talking about X and

948
00:55:51.480 --> 00:55:53.360
all that kind of stuff. And
this guy who is like my work friend

949
00:55:53.480 --> 00:55:57.480
right, like a guy that he's
like a colleague. That doesn't work for

950
00:55:57.519 --> 00:56:00.639
me. He's like sitting there like
just ordering more drinks. Like I cannot

951
00:56:00.719 --> 00:56:04.559
believe what he's hearing. Like that, you know, me talking to Roblo's

952
00:56:04.599 --> 00:56:07.519
kid. We're talking about rob Blow
and Bigfoot and what hop's like crazy And

953
00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:10.599
we're in the bar that Beverly Hills, Hilton. And then a few months

954
00:56:10.639 --> 00:56:15.000
after that, I have some clients
in town. This friend of mine is

955
00:56:15.000 --> 00:56:16.760
with us. He brings it up
in front of my clients and out pretty

956
00:56:16.840 --> 00:56:21.079
much everybody knows. Everybody knows,
not only have been on TV with Roblow

957
00:56:21.119 --> 00:56:22.960
talking about Bigfoot and showing him,
you know, big foot stuff, but

958
00:56:23.079 --> 00:56:27.199
like you know, everyone I know
is aware now because of this TV show,

959
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:29.760
Like there are no more secrets for
me. Everyone's in on it.

960
00:56:30.400 --> 00:56:32.800
The Bigfoot is out of the bag, Brian Brown. But you can't put

961
00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:36.639
that back in the bag after it's
out, So do you have anything else

962
00:56:36.679 --> 00:56:38.199
going on outside of your research?
Are you writing the book? Are you

963
00:56:38.239 --> 00:56:42.119
back in the podcast game? Do
you have anything coming up that you want

964
00:56:42.119 --> 00:56:45.159
to talk about. No, Man, I am so busy at work right

965
00:56:45.199 --> 00:56:47.039
now. I don't have any any
sort of I may be the only guy

966
00:56:47.039 --> 00:56:50.079
who's not writing a book. And
you know, I hear that. Matt

967
00:56:50.119 --> 00:56:52.280
True It's got his book coming out, and I really am looking forward to

968
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:54.760
reading that because Matt's one of the
smartest guys I know in this field,

969
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:59.400
So that's going to be good.
I'm not writing anything. I'm just going

970
00:56:59.400 --> 00:57:00.280
out with my friends. You know, we have we have a group with

971
00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:05.039
a research group. We're going out
a couple of times a year doing our

972
00:57:05.119 --> 00:57:07.400
thing. I'm not podcasting again.
I just don't have the time for that

973
00:57:07.440 --> 00:57:10.920
stuff anymore. So now I'm just
you know, I'm send me retired.

974
00:57:10.960 --> 00:57:15.280
I guess that's how I would describe
myself. Well, I definitely appreciate you

975
00:57:15.320 --> 00:57:16.199
taking the time to come on and
talk to me, man, I've been

976
00:57:16.199 --> 00:57:20.159
looking forward to this conversation. It
was definitely a blast. So I really

977
00:57:20.159 --> 00:57:22.880
do thank you for taking the time
to come on and share your stories.

978
00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:27.360
It's my pleasure. I really enjoyed
it. They say, you don't wantta

979
00:57:27.480 --> 00:58:07.239
go home, but casting try,
dis try, try everything, calling baby

980
00:58:07.320 --> 00:58:15.719
baby my joy for me to stay
right. You call it right away.

981
00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:28.000
Contract dons US to us us USS
used to use JAS