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The what up? What a guess
We're going to go over the difference is

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between Calvinism and Orthodoxy. So we
have Redeemed Zoomer and Jay Dyer. For

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those who don't know, Redeem Zoomer
one of the fastest growing channels on YouTube

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and some of his videos have gone
over millions of views. Lots of my

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audience love his videos because it's,
you know, Zoomer content, straight to

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the point. Like me, he's
kind of very secular, but he became

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a Calvinist and we're going to kind
of get into that. And then of

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course we have Jay Dyer, one
of the most popular Orthodox apologists. He's

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a philosopher, comedian, singer,
geopolitics, he does it all. But

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Jay's his like signature issue is reformed
theology. He went to Bonston Seminary.

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So I thought connecting Redeem Zummer and
j Dyer would be very good. So

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I think it's gonna be a great
stream. Thanks both for joining us.

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But just for those who don't know, Redeem Zummer, can you explain,

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you know, from secularism, what
led you specifically to Calvinism in the Presbyterian

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Church at USA. Yeah, Well, thank you Kyle for having me on

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again. It's going to be great. Thanks for this opportunity. So yes,

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as Kyle already said, I was
raised in a very secular part of

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the country, where it was basically
ridiculous to take religion seriously in my generation

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generation Z. All of that changed
when I went to the Midwest. I

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was going to like a music summer
camp, but it was also a Christian

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themed camp, and it was partly
sponsored by the Presbyterian Church because it was

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run by an Oberlin professor who was
a devout Presbyterian, and he basically shaped

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the camp according to his vision of
what the Kingdom of God should look like.

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And I saw the beauty of the
Kingdom of God there. I saw

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the goodness, truth, and beauty
of Christianity there, and that completely changed

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my perspective. I learned that the
stereotypes I had heard about Christians all my

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life were completely wrong. It wasn't
true that Christians were all a bunch of

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dumb, anti intellectual illbilities like I
was raised to believe in my public school.

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So once I saw that I became
Christian, I didn't immediately abandon Leftism,

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but I gradually saw that Leftism and
Christianity were incompatible. But because I

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was still living in my very atheist
community for the rest of you know,

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my high school career, I was
my faith was assaulted on all sides and

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I didn't really know how to defend
it. And I had a crisis of

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faith about a year after becoming a
Christian, and I kept scourging the internet

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for like resources to help me with
my faith. And at that time I

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didn't really know what to where to
go for resources, so I went to

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some not very good places. I
went to like Dennis Prager and Ben Shapiro

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for defenses of the existence of God. I was tacts logic, so you

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went you went to paxol Logicogy.
Yeah, a bunch of beer. It

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was like, they're Jewish, they
believe in got it, It's the same,

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right, So what they ended up
saying was very different than Christianity.

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But I didn't really realize that at
the time, because you know, I

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had recently become Grishman. I didn't
know much and they talked a lot about

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free will. So I was getting
my sort of resources from them. But

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then I then I tried to think, Okay, what does my church actually

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teach? Because I've been going to
this Presbyterian church. But I haven't really

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been reading the Bible much or studying
theology much. So that year I was

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getting confirmed in my church and I
thought, okay, maybe I'll actually find

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out what my church teaches. And
I was assigned this really smart mentor,

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this mentor who was like a Columbia
professor, but who's also an elder in

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the church. And I learned that
Presbyterians teach something called Calvinism, and I

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was like, Okay, that sounds
interesting. I wonder what that is.

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So I look up Calvinism. I'm
like, are you serious? We don't

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have free will. So when I
heard about that, I was horrified by

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that. I was horrified by the
idea that we don't have free will,

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especially because these you know, Jewish
influencers Dennis Brager and Ben Shapiro had ingrained

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inside me that free will was such
an important concept in religion. So I

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really didn't like Calvinism, and I
was going to I was going to go

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up to my mentor. I was
scheduled to meet my mentor. I was

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going to go up to him and
say, look, I can't accept this

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Calvinism stuff. So I thought I
would just read my Bible in preparation for

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when I was going to meet him. So I flipped randomly to a page

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I had never really read the Bible
before. The page I randomly flipped to

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was Roman's ninth and I did not
like Calvinism. I was not reading it

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with a bias. I mean I
was reading with an anti Calvinist bias,

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and I was like, uh,
oh, this really does look like what

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the Calvinists are saying, where it
says, you know, God is faithful

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to those who he's going to be
faithful. He judges those who he's going

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to judge. We have no right
to say it's unfair. The pot has

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no right to say to the potter, why did you make me like this?

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God made some people as vessels of
mercy, some people as vessels of

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wrath, prepared for destruction. That
sounded horrifying to me, but I had

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to admit, yeah, it seems
to be what the Bible is saying.

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So I shared these concerns with my
mentor. I was like, does Calvinism

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mean that we are robots? Does
this go against free will? And he

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explained that it did not, but
I didn't understand that at the time.

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It still sounded really bad to me. But then I kept investigating, you

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know, the resources of the Presbyterian
Church, and I realized that Calvinism and

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Presbyterianism had so many ways to defend
the faith that I didn't know existed,

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way better than like these Jewish people
I was trying to go to earlier.

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But the difference is they backed up
everything with scripture, with the Bible.

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These Jewish influencers I was listening to, they were just arguing based on,

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you know, the best philosophy they
could think of. But for the Presbyterians,

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everything was based on scripture and everything
was very well thought out. I

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discovered Tim Keller, who's one of
who was sadly he died last year.

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He was one of the greatest apologists
of our time. So I'm sure both

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of you guys can can agree that
Presbyterianism is better than Judaism. So yeah,

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so that's sort of how I came
to the Presbyterian Church, and that's

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just where I've been ever since.
When I was when I was figuring out

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what Calvinism was, I did briefly
consider Orthodoxy among a few other things,

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but I found that, you know, the more I started the Bible the

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more I found that the Presbyterian Church
has the best resources to explain what the

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Bible actually says. So yeah,
that's how I became Christian and how I

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became Calvinist. All that awesome.
Thanks for sharing. So, Jay,

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you kind of had the opposite experience
where you were Baptists and you became reformed

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kind of reading the Bible and getting
into the Church Fathers and actually going to

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Bonson's seminary, getting into Orthodox Presbyterianism. So now if you want to explain

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your experience of like kind of reading
out of Calvinism eventually took Catholicism and then

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to Orthodoxy as you go deeper and
deeper. Yeah, I was first got

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into the reading the Bible when I
was eighteen or nineteen, and my exposure

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to Christianity point was just being raised
Baptist, but I never really took it

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seriously. And then I went to
some evangelical Bible studies that I was invited

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to, and eventually, like you
said, kind of got interested in more

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historical Christianity. So I started reading
actually not the Church Fathers, but I

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went to Lutheran calvin Actually I started
with a lot of the Baptist Calvinists first,

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so I got really into Spurgeon,
and then I read a lot of

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the Puritans. At that time.
I got into John Owen and all those

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kind of guys, and then that
kind of led me to start questioning my

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Baptist assumptions about believers, Baptism and
the issues of dispensational theology. Because I

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was raised and kind of in just
an evangelical, dissed dispensational attitude. We

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didn't go deep into eschatology, but
I never really questioned it. So I

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started wondering about, you know,
covenant theology, and then I got deep

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into that. So I started reading
John Murray and Charles Hodge and Hermann,

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Visius and Burkhoff and all the reform
systematic theologian people, and that eventually led

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me to questioning Baptist theology as a
whole, because I was starting to see

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a lot more continuity between the Old
and New Testament than I had previously been

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aware of. And even when I
was a Baptist reform Baptist in my mindset,

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I was really into apologetics, so
I was really deep into Bonson's transcendental

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argumentation. I read basically everything I
could get my hands On from Bonson and

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Van Tiel, and at that time
I was like, well, I want

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to go to Bible College, but
I don't know if I want to go

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to anything Baptist anymore. I ended
up getting asked to leave my Baptist Bible

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College because I was attending a PCA
church, so they were mad that I

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was going to a church that believed
in infant Baptism. So I ended up

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leaving Baptist Bible College. And I
was like, well, I don't want

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to go to secular universe, so
I'll just try to see if I can

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get into Bonson Seminary, which at
that time was kind of a adjunct to

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what they called the Southern California Center
for Christian Studies, which was a lot

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of PCA and o PC people at
that time, like Ken Gentry was involved

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in that, Monson and some other
people. And I got really into Reconstructionist

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theology. So I was reading a
lot of Rush June, a lot of

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Gary North, a lot of James
Jordan and all those guys. And then

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I started thinking, well, when
I was at Bonson Seminary, I had

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a class with I think a guy
who's still a reformed Presbyterian elder Chris Dreevel.

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He taught a church history class and
we had a stack of about ten

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patristic and medieval texts that we had
to read. So I dove into it.

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I was really into it. I
bought the Philip schaff, a church

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father said at that time, and
I realized I was gonna have to really

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read the church fathers and see what
they taught, because I was kind of

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like you, like you said,
like working my way back historically through the

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progression of the church. I mean, I was very obviously interested in biblical

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theology as well. It's not like
I only made this decision or whatever based

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on could you bring me a water? As well, and I had to

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make the decision just based on history. Right for me, It wasn't like

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just some kind of history question.
It was a combination of all these things

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like biblical theology, church fathers,
church history, all of that together,

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as well as studying philosophy. So
I was studying philosophy as well at the

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same time in the secular university.
I decided not to do bonce a seminary

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because right around the time, after
a year of Bonsen, I decided that

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I was starting to question Protestantism and
reform theology as a whole. So I

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took I read All the City of
God, and I read all of like

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the works of I don't know if
I read all of them. I read

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a lot of Saint Cyprian at the
time, and I read a lot of

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Saint Jerome, and I knew that
as reform, you know, we had

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a lot of reliance on older ideas
like Augustine right, Augustine sort of the

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proto Calvinist of the you know,
the Patristic era. So I thought,

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well, why don't I read this
guy himself and see what he taught.

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And of course he doesn't teach anything
close to reform theology. So I was

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kind of put in an existential crisis. So after I read All the City

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of God, I listed a bunch
of questions and took it to all my

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professors, and I found all their
questions to be really or their answers to

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be inadequate. So then I started
attending Catholic RCIA classes. Not because I

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was ready to convert, but just
because I was ready. I wanted to

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see what the Roman Catholic view was
on all of these different contentious issues and

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I knew the Reformation critiques of those
things, because I've been reading Reform theology

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for many years, but I didn't
know, like, well, what's their

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answer, right? So I started
realizing a lot of the things that I

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thought were the case I didn't really
have a good picture of, and I

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didn't really give the benefit of the
doubt or steal man the other position.

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So I thought, why don't I
try at least to understand their arguments from

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their side, because a lot of
what I assumed Augustine taught wasn't the case,

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right. I assumed that he was
kind of this proto Calvinist, and

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then I find no, actually,
he believes in episcopacy, he believes in

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absolute succession, he believes in the
real presence, he believes in all these

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things that I thought were very you
know. Then he believes in the necessity

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of good works as a manifestation of
you know, the whether you have the

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gift to perseverance or not. I
know that Calvinists believe in that, but

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I'm saying that his conception of faith
and works is not solo fide. It's

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not the it's not the Reform view. And then I read a book by

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Alistair McGrath around that time that came
out where he was arguing and pointing out

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that nobody taught Luther's doctrine of solo
fide prior to Luther, right. So

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if that's the case, then you
know, I started realizing the lynch pins

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of what would be the church right. So you know, Luther thinks that

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the solos and these diff lynch pins
are kind of what the church hinges on.

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If those started falling, then then
Protestantism wouldn't be a viable option anymore.

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But I decided that really the issue
wasn't even going to be those things.

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It was going to be something more
fundamental, which was the formation of

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the Biblical Canon. So I basically
just started reading tons of evangelical works on

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the formation of the Canon, and
across the span of all the works that

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I read, whether it was Evangelicals
like F. F. Bruce, or

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Baptist like Lee McDonald, or even
Anglican or other traditions talking about how the

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Canon came to be, I realized
I didn't know much about this, and

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I just had all these assumptions.
But when you get into actual history of

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the formation of it, it's very
obvious that the Church as an existing,

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visible historical body played an inseparable role
in the preservation, the transmission, and

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the decision about what would be canonical. And so eventually I just found answers

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from people like you know, when
RC Sprawl would say stuff like it's a

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fallible collection of infallible books. I
think that ends up being self refuting.

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It leads to the logical conclusion that
the academic realm could then determine through study

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and research and overturned everything that the
church had believed prior to that. And

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that's exactly what happened after Luther.
You get in the German higher critical tradition

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coming out of Luther, the ability
to deconstruct the whole text, because now

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it's no longer in the ecclesiastical sphere
to make these decisions that are normative.

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It's a normative authority here. Now
it's passed over into the academic realm.

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So all of those questions were really
bugging me for many years, and then

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in two thousand and two three I
came into the Roman Catholic Church. They

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have to remember at that time that
was like prior to the omni presence of

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the Internet. So there weren't a
whole lot of resources. There wasn't a

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whole lot of stuff in two thousand
and three that you could go to for

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a lot of this, you had
to just get the actual books and do

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the reading. You know, there
weren't really podcasts yet. There there was

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new advent existed, but that was
about it when it came to like finding

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you know, resources, resources that
you if you didn't have the Church Fathers

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set right, you have to go
to a new advent. And there were

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some Catholic websites and at that time, again the only debate that existed online

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was reformed uh in Protestant debates with
Roman Catholics. That was it like if

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you go into chat rooms or whatever, you would see people, you know,

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like spam spamming in AOL chat back
and forth between Roman Catholic and it

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would be like quote minds, like
the Protestants that be putting there are processes

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to be spamming, like Romans three
and Romans nine, and the Catholics would

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be spamming like quotes from Saint Jerome
and and you know, we're trying to

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refute argue that Protestantism was was a
historical anyway, so for me, it

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was just going to be pretty much
a consistent approach of like studying the text,

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going back into the text. So
I was Roman Catholic for about maybe

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I always say, I don't remember
exactly how many years, basically eight or

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nine years, basically a decade anyway. So then as the Internet got more

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and more popular, people were exposed
a lot more ideas like orthodoxy started getting

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more and more popular online. Even
in two thousand and seven or eight,

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when I first encountered orthodox stuff,
there was only like two or three kind

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of popular blogs. There wasn't a
whole lot of resources and material and you

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know apologetics. So uh, that
was the first time I really encountered orthodoxy.

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I didn't have it near me,
so I didn't really take it very

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seriously. But within the Rumman Catholic
world, if you're in that world for

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you know, a span of time, for almost a decade, you're going

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to be presented with a lot of
the the contradictions and difficulties. And one

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thing I've noticed with you, with
younger guys like you guys, is that

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what the Internet's done is that it
is allowed a lot of these debates that

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in like the early two thousands or
mid two thousands, it took a lot

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longer to work through the Internet has
basically sped all that up, so you

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can you can work through these issues
a lot quicker because there's there's so many

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more resources and so much more information
available than there was in two thousand and

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three, four, five, six. That what took me, like,

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you know, three, four or
five years to work through I think online,

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you know, intelligent young people can
work through them a lot faster,

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right, Like redeem Zoomer, you
were talking about kind of working through issues

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of like well I don't really buy
this leftist stuff. You know, maybe

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Ben Shapiro has a good argument,
and then you kind of, you know,

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you were able to quickly move through
that to where you are now.

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And I think it's just it's a
lot different people have to understand that,

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Like you know, it's kind of
like people will look back and they'll be

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like, well, why didn't you
understand? How come you didn't see orthodoxy

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was true in two thousand and five? And it's like I had one book

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on Orthodoxy in two thousand and five
from Timothy waere uh, and I didn't

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even know if there was an Orthodox
church anywhere near me in Tennessee. So

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it's like, how was I supposed
to know that, you know, this

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thing that I was only recently exposed
to was the case. It takes a

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lot. It took a lot of
time, as when I'm trying to say

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to work through issues back then,
So long story short, Yeah, so

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I'll work through a lot of the
contradictions in the Roman Catholic world by kind

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of going through the Bell curve or
what a lot of people do where you

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go from tradcat and for me,
it was a really easy transition from Calvinism

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to Tomism. In fact, Arvin
Voss wrote a book about this at the

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time that was really popular in the
mid two thousands about similarities between Calvin's predestinarian

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theology and Thomas Aquinas's view. So
I got really endSo Tomism throughout my twenties

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and the two thousands. But then
I started noticing that a lot of the

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kind of idealized picture that I had
a lot of a lot of these systematic

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theologies, there's problems, like serious
problems, and I couldn't keep ignoring them

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or try to cope and make them
fit together and work. So not just

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problems in tumism, but problems in
Western doctrines of divine simplicity, problems in

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terms of what Vatican two teaches and
everything post Vatican two versus what Vatican one

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taught, and what the pre Vatican
two teaching was of the popes. I

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had just grappled with that for many
years, and so finally I just kind

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of started attending an Orthodox church to
check it out. When I found one

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in Nashville. That was two thousand
and seven. But I wasn't ready to

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become Orthodox. I still had all
these kind of Latin and Tonistic presuppositions in

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my head, and it takes a
long time to kind of work through a

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lot of the stuff to work it
out. So I had a phase where

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I just kind of didn't go to
church for a few years. I got

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burned out on all the theology.
And then about twenty fourteen I started warming

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back up to Orthodox ideas. I
wasn't like an atheist or anything. I

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just kind of had a like I'm
going to take a break from church period.

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And I never adopted atheism or even
agnosticism. I was just kind of

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like in a pause period. So
I started going to Orthodox church again in

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about twenty fifteen, and then finally
made the decision around twenty seventeen to be

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I'm a catechumen. I'd already been
through the whole catechumen in two thousand and

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seven, though, but I ended
up not converting at that time because it

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wasn't just the theological reasons. I
was about to be engaged to somebody We're

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going to be married in the church
at that time, and we ended up

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not getting not getting married, so
I didn't want to go to church where

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my ex was. So basically,
yeah, anyway, So that's that's the

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long story of it. I didn't
mean to ramble that long, but that's

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when I ended up being Orthodox in
about twenty seventeen officially, but I'd been

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reading Orthodox stuff since two thousand and
seven or eight. Thank yeah, thank

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you. That was really helpful,
kind of touching on a lot of issues.

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Now, Redeemsimer, did you have
any questions about any of the specific

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issues he was talking about, Like
he said kind of the formation of the

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canon was a kind of a big
thing for Like, was there anything you

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wanted to ask him about those?
Sure? Well, generally I want to

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say that I think a lot of
the reason why people leave Protestantism these days

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is right now, Protestantism is Protestantism
is in crisis because, as many times

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it would have been, egg Protestants
have been alienated from their own traditional institutions,

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like all the historic Protestant churches and
seminaries mostly have been hijacked by liberals.

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And there have been times on the
Catholic Church was hijacked, different times

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on the Orthodox Church was hijacked.
Right now, it's the Protestant Church that

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are hijacked. That's why we're seeing
like waves and waves of Protestants convert to

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Catholicism. But back in like the
sixteen hundreds, when the Protestants institutions were

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strong and the Catholic Church was hijacked
by like corruption, that's when waves and

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waves of Catholics were becoming Protestant.
And that's why I say that a lot

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of Calvinism out there, and I'm
sure you've seen this with like Spurgeon and

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those Reformed Baptists. A lot of
Calvinism on the Internet has nothing to do

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with traditional Reformation theology at all.
And I know that since you've been to

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seminary you would probably know this.
But there's a lot of mischaracterizations of Calvinism,

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such as that Calvinists don't believe in
the real presence, or that Calvinists

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don't think the early Church had the
authority to determined the canon or whatever,

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because that's not true at all.
Calvinists do believe in the real presence.

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Calvinists do believe in the the necessity
of good works, maybe not in the

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exact same sense as the Orthodox do, but we're not Antiinomians, and Calvinists

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do generally have a high view of
the Church, a very high view of

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the Church. We're the ones that
are always saying it's like, you know,

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Christianity is a collective reality. It's
not an individualist reality. It's not

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just me, my Bible and my
own personal interpretation. So I think even

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in a lot of these Presbyterian seminaries
today, the ones that have been disconnected

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from the main line, there's a
lot of Baptist assumptions that get sort of

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read into reformed theology, into Presbyterianism, and it gives people sort of not

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the best idea of what performed theology
actually is. Yeah, I mean,

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to be fair, I understand that, and I wasn't trying to give the

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impression that Calvinism is equated to Baptist
theology. I mean, I went through

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the same dilemma when I was you
know, like twenty two. So I'm

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00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,119
not trying to be a douchebag.
I'm just saying that I'm really I'm aware

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that it's not the Baptist's low view
of the sacraments. But also, Calvin's

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spiritual presence is not the real presence
in the sense of the way that the

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Orthodox or the Roman Catholic Church believes
in a transformation of the elements through the

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invocation of the Holy Spirit via the
prisbuterate right, so it's not the real

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presence in the same sense. So
it's kind of this spirit like it's a

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spiritual sense, but it's not a
transformation that occurs. And between the Orthodox

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Church and the Roman Catholics, you
know, we pretty much agree that there

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is a transformation that occurs in the
theology that is of what happens at the

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Eucharist, and also when it comes
to the formation of the canon. I

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would disagree there just in the fact
that while some Calvinists or reform theologians might

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confess that there is this quote authority
of the Church to decide a canon.

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First point is that the Calvinist canon, unless you're an Anglican, is not

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00:25:57,359 --> 00:26:04,200
the Orthodox or the Roman Catholic.
And too typically when you look at Reform

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00:26:04,279 --> 00:26:08,240
theologians, they tend to agree with
what somebody like Arc Sproul says, which

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is that it's a fallible collection of
infallible books. So the question there is

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normative authority. Does the historic Church
have authority to bind anybody to any decision

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about the canon of scripture? Or
is it rather that the Church might have

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the ability to have historical attestation two
things or something like that, but it

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doesn't have any way to bind your
conscience to a decision. I mean,

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in other words, if you looked
at something like the Council of Nicia,

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many Calvinists would affirm. Most Calvinists
woul affirm the theology of Nicia, but

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it doesn't have the ability to bind
your conscience. In terms of at least

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classical Reformation theology, it always teaches
that you have the liberty of conscience,

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the liberty of you. You have
free will when it comes to the decisions

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of theology. And thus, for
example, Westminster Confession says that no creed

355
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:07,559
or council could bind you necessarily in
terms of your conscience. Right, So

356
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it might be true in terms of
agreeing with the theology, but there's no

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binding or what we call normative authority. Now, I would just say that

358
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simply as something that is inconsistent in
the Classical Reformation tradition. Right. So

359
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,319
it is a question that stumps a
lot of Protestants and makes them give them

360
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,839
and go Catholic. It's like,
who had the authority to make the canon

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we have? You know, the
Bible doesn't have a table of contents.

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The answer is it was the Holy
Spirit that gave us the Bible that we

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have today, and we believe it's
the Holy Spirit working through the means of

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00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:47,279
the Church. We believe providentially that
God arranged the Church to be the means

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that produced the canon. I mean, who else would produce the canon?

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Just because the Church produced the canon, and just because it was God's infallible

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authority working through the Church to produce
the canon, that doesn't mean the descent

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the organizational descendants of that church today
have some sort of infallible authority. An

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00:28:04,079 --> 00:28:07,200
example is, but wait a minute, hold on just one second, because

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you said it was God's infallible authority
working through the church to decide the canon.

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Yes, because Jesus promised that the
Holy Spirit would would guide the church.

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Okay, but but there are but
there That is not a classical Reformation

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teaching. So you would be departing
from that because that the church itself is

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not infallible. But God can use
his infallible authority working through the church.

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00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,519
That's a classical information teaching. So
at one point in church history, in

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what fourth, fifth, sixth century, there was an infallible decision that the

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church made. No, it's not
like that. Well, you just said

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it was through the church, though
it was, the church itself wasn't infallible.

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00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:47,720
Jesus promised that the Holy Spirit would
guide the church and truth because of

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that, But it's a historic decision
post apostolic that made this decision. Yeah,

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00:28:53,079 --> 00:28:56,799
it was like, for example,
Jesus the Bible that Jesus used.

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He also the Old Testament doesn't have
a table of contents either. He was

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00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,640
relying on the traditions. You know, the leaders of the Temple of the

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Sadducees. Did that make the Saducees
infallible for Jesus? No, not at

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all. He said they were like
broot of vipers and stuff. So God,

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00:29:11,559 --> 00:29:14,640
no, he was using the Pharisees
tradition, not the Sadduces. The

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00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:18,839
Sadducees are rejected the prophets. Okay, so well, whoever was that assembled

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00:29:18,839 --> 00:29:22,680
the canon? These Jewish leaders,
Jesus didn't give them any infallible authority,

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whereas like a lot of Protestants today, a lot of presence today, Well

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they'll think, okay, the Church
had no authority. The Bible just dropped

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00:29:30,519 --> 00:29:33,119
out of the sky in the King
James version. I'm sure you know that's

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00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:37,319
not the classic referre me right,
but you actually said that post Apostolic there

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was an infallible decision made about the
canon, and you said that the Church

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didn't possess it. But they made
that decision, but it was God working

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00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,000
through them. So you don't see
the contradiction there. Well, I don't

396
00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,799
think it was a single infallible decision
that determined the cannon. I think,

397
00:29:51,799 --> 00:29:53,759
well, it's all on so which
canon do you accept? Like where what

398
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:57,119
canon? Well, for now,
it's like, how do you know that

399
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,119
the books we have our trust worth
Let's say like the New Testament canon all

400
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,319
Christians can agree on that. The
fact that there's different Old Testament canons,

401
00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:08,000
you know, the hold on,
there's not just one New Testament canon though

402
00:30:10,279 --> 00:30:12,680
as porn like Protestants and Catholics,
the Orthodox have the same wells. But

403
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:17,279
I mean there were many different canons
in the first six centuries, is what

404
00:30:17,319 --> 00:30:21,759
I'm saying. And so just because
Orthodox and Protestants and Catholics agree on what

405
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,559
later became the New Testament list,
that doesn't mean that it's therefore true because

406
00:30:25,559 --> 00:30:29,200
there's some majority agreement. I mean, that's just resting on assumption that we

407
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:30,920
should take the majority opinion. Why
should we do that? I mean,

408
00:30:30,960 --> 00:30:34,119
the majority opinion in the fourth century
was that arianism was true. We wouldn't

409
00:30:34,119 --> 00:30:37,519
assume that arianism is true just because
it's the majority, right, Well,

410
00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:41,839
yeah, the majority. Like I
said, the Church has always been hijacked

411
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,799
at various points and times, but
the truth went out in the end.

412
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,599
So hold on, well, why
wasn't it hijacked when it made this decision

413
00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:52,079
about the canon. Well, because
the Holy Spirit is going to guide the

414
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:53,920
church, so in the end the
truth went out. Right, But aren't

415
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:57,680
you relying on the text of John
fourteen fifteen sixteen to know that the Holy

416
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:02,680
Spirit will guide the church. Well, we know the Holy Spirit's going to

417
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:04,400
guide the church. We can trust
Jesus told us that. But wait,

418
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:08,200
where did he tell us that?
He told us that in the scriptures?

419
00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:12,200
Right, But this is a question
about which are the scriptures? So that's

420
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:17,079
prior to what you're arguing. Well, that you have that problem no matter

421
00:31:17,079 --> 00:31:19,079
what church you're part of, like
the problem not if I believe in historical

422
00:31:19,079 --> 00:31:23,200
normative authority, which you're saying in
one case is allowed when the church made

423
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:27,200
the decision for the canon. But
also the church doesn't possess that power.

424
00:31:27,839 --> 00:31:33,039
So you're saying the church is really
what has the authority and the Bible only

425
00:31:33,079 --> 00:31:36,960
has no You just said it.
You just admitted that the Church has that

426
00:31:37,039 --> 00:31:41,559
authority when you admitted that they made
a decision within history post Apostolic there was

427
00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:44,880
an infallible decision of a canon.
But then you're saying that they don't actually

428
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,039
possess that power though, Well,
like I said, I didn't say that

429
00:31:48,039 --> 00:31:51,240
there was one council or one meeting
that decided the canon. It's an organic

430
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:55,079
development of the canon. So but
it's an organic development, then it requires

431
00:31:55,079 --> 00:31:59,519
a historical body of people post apostolic
to make the decision. Right. Yeah,

432
00:32:00,279 --> 00:32:05,359
development through the church community, not
through some sort of authoritative one council

433
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:08,960
through the church community is an organic
des So what were some of those important

434
00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,440
councils do you think? I mean, do you think that, like,

435
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:15,599
what do you think some of those
were? The councils were all very important?

436
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:20,480
But like which ones for the canon? It's like RC. Sprul said,

437
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:22,000
It's like, I'm not sure exactly
what RC. Sprul meant when he

438
00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:27,039
said it's like an infallible collection of
infallible documents. Well, he's being consistent

439
00:32:27,079 --> 00:32:32,680
with the Reformation teaching that nobody after
the Apostles possessed any ability to infallibly bind

440
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,480
anybody to a decision. Yeah,
so the Apostles, they were the ones

441
00:32:37,480 --> 00:32:40,720
that had the infallible authority. Correct, But you already admitted the Apostles didn't

442
00:32:40,759 --> 00:32:45,079
give you a canon. They wrote, they wrote things they didn't you already

443
00:32:45,079 --> 00:32:49,799
said they didn't list the books.
They didn't list the books. But we

444
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,759
still we can rely on tradition to
know which books are apostolic, but whose

445
00:32:52,799 --> 00:33:00,039
tradition, whose tradition, all the
all the traditions of the the Church of

446
00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:05,519
the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church agree on
which of the New Testament, but they

447
00:33:05,559 --> 00:33:08,079
don't. They don't agree. Jerome's
canon is not the same thing as athanasius

448
00:33:08,119 --> 00:33:10,920
As canon, not the same thing
as John Damascus's canon. So you're saying

449
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,720
all the traditions agree, and I
mean there's different codices, Coteks Alexandrinas,

450
00:33:16,759 --> 00:33:20,920
coteics about akanais the Pashida, they
all have different canons for both all that

451
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,319
New Testament. Well, I didn't
say every individual in the church agrees,

452
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:30,480
but these aren't just individuals, these
are canonical traditions. I didn't say that.

453
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,279
Like I said, there have been
like the Church is fallible. The

454
00:33:34,319 --> 00:33:37,000
Church is fallible. But you admitted
a minute ago that in the decision for

455
00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:40,680
the canon, they possessed infallibility.
You said it was an infallible decision that

456
00:33:40,759 --> 00:33:45,440
God did through the Church. But
the Church doesn't possess infallibility. That's just

457
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:47,440
another way to say what I didn't
say. It was a single decision.

458
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:50,960
I said it was an organic development
guided by the Holy Spirit. Doesn't.

459
00:33:51,319 --> 00:33:54,720
So that's even worse for your situation
because now it's multiple decisions throughout centuries.

460
00:33:54,759 --> 00:33:59,839
That's an infallible decision. Well,
like I said, it's not an infallible

461
00:34:00,000 --> 00:34:01,559
decision on the part of the people. Like I said, it's Wait,

462
00:34:01,599 --> 00:34:06,960
so God does this and abstracted from
the actual people making the decision and passing.

463
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,360
You just said it's a tradition,
So his tradition abstracted from the people

464
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:14,519
in the community. No, it's
it's a providential development. Like you know,

465
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,320
we just saying it's providential, doesn't
Yeah, but that's still people within

466
00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:22,599
history making the decision. Just saying
it's providential and God does it is not

467
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,199
answering the question of does it how
through who I said, it's it's through

468
00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:30,119
the church. God does it through
the church. You don't see the contradiction

469
00:34:30,199 --> 00:34:34,280
here because I don't think there's a
I don't think there's a contradiction between saying

470
00:34:34,639 --> 00:34:38,320
God works through the church the Holy
Spirit because you immediately five minutes ago you

471
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:44,519
you said that it possessed an infallible
power to do this. The Holy Spirit

472
00:34:44,599 --> 00:34:46,079
is infallible. God works through the
church. How do you know that?

473
00:34:46,119 --> 00:34:50,880
How do you know that? Though
from John sixteen fourteen fifteen sixteen, right,

474
00:34:52,519 --> 00:34:57,079
yes, we so you're it's a
circular argument, right, the faith

475
00:34:57,119 --> 00:35:00,239
of the entire Christian community in a
sense, we do how do I know

476
00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:01,199
that that? But how do you
know John's supposed to be in there?

477
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:07,400
But the tradition itself is not infallible. We rely it is possible to rely

478
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,519
on, so hold on. So
the so the Bible relies on that.

479
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:15,199
What goes into the books relies on
a thing that is itself fallible, this

480
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:20,079
tradition that you're talking about. So
the infallible thing relies on a fallible thing.

481
00:35:21,039 --> 00:35:24,039
Okay, here's an analogy. Uh, your your priest is fallible,

482
00:35:24,039 --> 00:35:30,679
correct, Yes, you can still
trust your priest to deliver the faith to

483
00:35:30,679 --> 00:35:32,360
you. Correct. Yeah, but
this is not This is two different questions.

484
00:35:32,400 --> 00:35:37,679
Normative authority versus existential authority. Okay, your your reasoning is fallible,

485
00:35:37,679 --> 00:35:44,159
correct, but God still brought you
to the church through your reasoning in some

486
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,159
sense. Correct. Yeah, But
that's a category mistake. So you're confusing

487
00:35:47,159 --> 00:35:53,719
two categories. You're confusing the existential
with the normative. So my point is

488
00:35:53,719 --> 00:36:00,000
that God can use fallible means to
deliver infallible authority. The church is fallible.

489
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:01,880
How do you know that that?
How do you know the number one?

490
00:36:01,920 --> 00:36:07,199
There's description, there's multiple canons,
there's a development, as you admitted,

491
00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,800
over multiple centuries. How do you
know that the fourth, fifth,

492
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,119
and sixth century decision, which by
the way, is not the Protestant canon,

493
00:36:15,199 --> 00:36:19,360
it includes the Deudro canon. When
Trollo and the Seventh Council affirm the

494
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,239
Orthodox canon, how do you know
that that's the wrong canon because you don't

495
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:27,239
have that canon, you have a
different canon. Are you talking about like

496
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:32,679
the differences between the Protestant and Orthodox
cans today? Yes, So the problem

497
00:36:32,679 --> 00:36:37,920
of different canons is not solved just
because you're Orthodox, because the Orthodox and

498
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:39,519
the Catholics and the Ethiopians have different
cans from each other. So how do

499
00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:43,519
you know the Catholics aren't right?
Well, I have an argument because I

500
00:36:43,519 --> 00:36:45,239
believe in the normative authority of the
church. And if you don't believe in

501
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,920
the Norman authority of the church,
it's not it's a problem for you,

502
00:36:49,039 --> 00:36:52,199
not for me. I believe the
church has the authority. What church?

503
00:36:53,280 --> 00:37:00,199
What church? Which church? The
church community? There are schisms when people

504
00:37:00,199 --> 00:37:04,039
can't agree on certain things, but
I would say, so who was the

505
00:37:04,119 --> 00:37:08,639
church in the fourth century? I
would say that the church, which includes

506
00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:14,079
the Protestant Church today, has the
authority to make just make their best decision

507
00:37:14,159 --> 00:37:16,000
on the canon, and maybe it
won't be maybe it won't be an infallible

508
00:37:16,039 --> 00:37:19,400
authority. It's like they can't all
be right. So wait a minute,

509
00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,440
So hold on. Now you're saying
that the Protestants today can participate in deciding

510
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,239
the canon, but you've already admitted
that it was a decision based in the

511
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:30,480
past. Now, if we're talking
about like the New Testament canon or the

512
00:37:30,519 --> 00:37:34,599
Old Testament canion, either one the
New Testament canon that delivers the teachings of

513
00:37:34,639 --> 00:37:37,639
the Apostles, and all the churches
agree on that today the Old Testament.

514
00:37:37,679 --> 00:37:43,440
But that's a fallacy. Why because
all of today? Why because all today's

515
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,519
groups agree on something, does that
make it true for the fourth sixth seventh

516
00:37:46,559 --> 00:37:52,360
century. So let's assume that maybe
let's suppose that the Gnostic Gospels are actually

517
00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,679
the true canon, and then all
of the things we have now are are

518
00:37:55,760 --> 00:38:00,679
radical. Well, that means that
God has not been guiding his his church,

519
00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:04,280
and by faith, we know that
that's wrong. That's gnosticism, that's

520
00:38:05,960 --> 00:38:09,559
yeah. But you and I both
believe that God uses the Holy Spirit to

521
00:38:09,559 --> 00:38:14,159
guide the Church in history. So
how do we delineate between you and I

522
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,559
which is the right canon when we
both believe in the Holy Spirit's guidance.

523
00:38:16,880 --> 00:38:22,360
There has to be a normative historical
attestation which decides this question. And for

524
00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:27,480
me, the decision is made because
the Apostolic succession of the fourth, fifth,

525
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:31,159
sixth, seventh century church fathers,
who have normative authority. That's different

526
00:38:31,199 --> 00:38:36,639
from individual existential questions of you,
how do you know it as an individual?

527
00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:40,519
Normative authority means that there's a body
of people who has the ability to

528
00:38:40,599 --> 00:38:47,000
interpret and bind people to that decision, and your Reformation theology denies anyone after

529
00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:52,079
the Apostles the ability to bind anybody
to that decision. So you're basically just

530
00:38:52,119 --> 00:38:54,320
in the same boat that you were
in when you were in the liberal position.

531
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:58,199
And you're grappling with the Jewish arguments. You're saying, well, is

532
00:38:58,199 --> 00:39:00,119
their free will? I don't know, Well, it's not any different now

533
00:39:00,199 --> 00:39:07,119
because you don't have a way to
know with historical attestation which is the correct

534
00:39:07,119 --> 00:39:10,559
canon. You're just assuming that the
Protestant canon is what the Apostles taught,

535
00:39:10,599 --> 00:39:14,480
And I'm calling that into a question. And so if I call into a

536
00:39:14,559 --> 00:39:19,400
question that that's what the Protestant that
the Protestant doctrine is, what the Apostles

537
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,559
taught, then I need for you
to tell me in what way you can

538
00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:27,599
know what the right list of the
books is without just appealing to John fourteen

539
00:39:27,679 --> 00:39:30,440
fifteen sixteen, which is assuming that
John is part of the list of books.

540
00:39:31,639 --> 00:39:35,440
So how do you know if you
think that the infallible authority rests in

541
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:37,719
a body of people, how do
you know it's your body of people,

542
00:39:37,800 --> 00:39:42,559
not the Catholic body? Because my
position is consistent and it has a historical

543
00:39:42,599 --> 00:39:46,679
witness versus what Roman Catholics claim.
And by the way, that doesn't disprove

544
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:52,519
my position because there's disagreements within history. There's always been disagreements, as we

545
00:39:52,559 --> 00:39:55,639
already admitted, right. So the
disagreements, though, mean that some groups

546
00:39:55,679 --> 00:40:00,880
will leave the one true Church.
So apoultes is one Lord, one faith,

547
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,679
one baptism. There's one body.
There's not a thousand different bodies.

548
00:40:04,679 --> 00:40:08,719
There's on an invisible body of Christ. Christ's body was visible. So both

549
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:13,840
the Catholic and the Orthodox churches both
claim we are the ones your church with

550
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:17,880
the It doesn't matter. That's a
fallacy. It doesn't matter they both claim

551
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:22,199
that. Do you understand that's a
fallacy. It doesn't matter how many people

552
00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:23,840
claim something, because that has nothing
to do with whether it's true or false.

553
00:40:24,199 --> 00:40:29,599
That'd be like saying that'd be like
saying, but a lot of Catholics

554
00:40:29,599 --> 00:40:32,199
and Orthodox have been debating who's the
one church for a thousand years, right,

555
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:38,280
and fundamentally you used your reason to
determine who is correct in that debate.

556
00:40:38,840 --> 00:40:43,599
That doesn't mean that reasoning is the
final authority. So that's another category

557
00:40:43,679 --> 00:40:46,760
error. Using something doesn't mean that
it's the final court of appeal. So

558
00:40:47,119 --> 00:40:52,639
using it's not the final authority.
But you used your fallible reason to determine

559
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,920
you know, yeah, I understand, correct, I understand, But you're

560
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,280
not understanding what a category error is. So this is a difference between existential

561
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:05,880
questions and normative authority. So you
keep going back to the question of how

562
00:41:05,960 --> 00:41:09,840
how does the individual know at an
existential level what's true or what's false?

563
00:41:09,519 --> 00:41:15,719
In these cases, we all agree
that at the last court of appeal,

564
00:41:15,760 --> 00:41:20,920
the final analysis, it's the Holy
Spirit that's guiding the individual. Everybody romancalol,

565
00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:23,480
Orthodox and Protestants all believe that at
the end of the day, it's

566
00:41:23,559 --> 00:41:29,440
ultimately the Holy Spirit that's giving you
that certitude and that assurance. But how

567
00:41:29,480 --> 00:41:34,920
do we know that in history,
whether there's any decision that's binding on anybody.

568
00:41:34,920 --> 00:41:37,719
That's what we call normative authority.
That's a different question than the question

569
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,639
of the individual certitude. Two different
questions. They relate to one another,

570
00:41:42,639 --> 00:41:46,320
but they're different questions. And so, for example, think about the Constitution,

571
00:41:46,440 --> 00:41:49,960
right, the Constitution is a document. It's a piece of paper,

572
00:41:50,559 --> 00:41:53,159
and is our system in America set
up where everybody just goes and reads it

573
00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:57,960
and then tries to figure out who
has the right interpretation. No, there's

574
00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,559
a body of people, the Supreme
Court, it has normative authority to interpret

575
00:42:01,639 --> 00:42:07,400
the document and give legislative rulings.
So the difference between us is that I'm

576
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,559
saying that because Jesus promised to the
people that he blew the Holy Spirit on

577
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:14,840
that they would have the Holy Spirit
to guide them and lead them into truth.

578
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:17,960
That means that in each of the
successive generations after Christ and after the

579
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,360
Apostles, they would possess that same
power and authority. You're saying that they

580
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:27,760
possessed that same power and authority for
just the decision of the canon over many

581
00:42:27,840 --> 00:42:30,480
centuries, and in no other way
than in nothing else say that they possessed

582
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,199
that authority in any ways. They
wrote the Creed, the nice in Creed,

583
00:42:34,639 --> 00:42:36,679
it is the same. You don't
believe that the nice in Creed is

584
00:42:37,119 --> 00:42:40,880
binding. The nice in Creed is
not binding by its own authority. It

585
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,320
is binding because it contains what the
Bible says. Yeah, but that's just

586
00:42:45,320 --> 00:42:49,320
begging the question, because the question
is not existential certitude. You believe that

587
00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,639
it's a correct interpretation of scripture,
but you just admitted that it's not morally

588
00:42:53,639 --> 00:43:00,559
binding on people as an authoritative document
because it's not the Bible. What the

589
00:43:00,639 --> 00:43:04,800
protest and reformers say, what our
confessions say is by its own authority.

590
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:07,559
These councils, they don't have the
authority. They don't have that. But

591
00:43:07,599 --> 00:43:12,280
then the same confessions will go on
to say what you must believe to be

592
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:16,119
saved is the contents of the Creeds. Yeah, but that's not resolving the

593
00:43:16,199 --> 00:43:21,280
question that I'm saying about normative authority. So in the wrap in the Reformation

594
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:25,000
tradition, we have no authority.
No, you don't. We don't believe

595
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:30,880
it's infallible authority. But what makes
the authority it's irrelevant authority, because no,

596
00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:34,239
it's you don't. It's not a
question of infallibility. It's a question

597
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:39,079
of whether people can be bound in
conscience to a doctrine. So even if

598
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:44,760
you believe that it's fallible, you
don't believe that any creed or council can

599
00:43:44,800 --> 00:43:50,400
bind your conscience. Right, Let's
think about excommunication. So in the Orthodox

600
00:43:50,480 --> 00:43:52,920
Church, if you read, you
know in the councils, when somebody teaches

601
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:58,719
against the teaching of nicea or four
or five sixty seven council, they are

602
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:04,039
excommunicated and banned from the churches.
The Reformed Church doesn't have the ability to

603
00:44:04,079 --> 00:44:07,440
do that. They might excommunicated person
here or there. But you can just

604
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:09,000
go and start your own church down
the road and stee you can be just

605
00:44:09,039 --> 00:44:15,559
as much a Protestant as anyone else
because there's no normative authority. Well Protestants,

606
00:44:15,639 --> 00:44:17,400
I don't see what the real difference
is. You could leave the Orthodox

607
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:22,800
Church and start your own new church
because it's a totally different conception of eccles.

608
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:29,599
Because you already admitted that all the
Protestants together participate in this decision because

609
00:44:29,599 --> 00:44:31,920
there's not one church. So you
might leave the Orthodox Church, but you're

610
00:44:31,960 --> 00:44:37,119
not the Orthodox Church anymore. In
the Protestant Church. You can be excommunicated

611
00:44:37,119 --> 00:44:39,639
from the Protestant Church and you're still
just as much legitimately the Protestant Church as

612
00:44:39,639 --> 00:44:43,760
anybody else down the road, the
Strip mall, or whoever else. Well,

613
00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:45,400
that's because Protestant is a category,
it's not a denomination. It's like

614
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:50,559
if you're excommunicated from the Orthodox Presbyterian
Church, you can't start a new Orthodox

615
00:44:50,599 --> 00:44:53,760
Presbyterian because you have a false right. So, because the ecclesiology is wrong,

616
00:44:53,960 --> 00:45:00,239
there's no way to delineate within history
what is the true church. So

617
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:05,000
Protestants we have the we do have
normative authority. We do excommunicate people who

618
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,719
don't agree with doctrines that are binding. We have doctors that are binding.

619
00:45:09,039 --> 00:45:14,679
Generally speaking, the Protestant doctrines are
a lot less are a lot more inclusive

620
00:45:14,679 --> 00:45:17,119
than the Orthodox ones. Generally,
it's basically, you just have to affirm

621
00:45:17,159 --> 00:45:20,639
the Creeds to be saved. I
know there's some Protestants that will say you

622
00:45:20,679 --> 00:45:23,679
have to affirm soulo feede most Protestants
don't believe you have to affirm soulo feeda

623
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:27,199
to be saved. But we do
have Norman authority. It's not just like

624
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:31,079
we can have people believe whatever they
want as long as they Yeah, but

625
00:45:31,079 --> 00:45:35,800
you already said that. But you
already said that when you said that the

626
00:45:35,840 --> 00:45:39,199
decision of the Canon was infallible in
the beginning of this discussion. You then

627
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,960
retracted that by saying that, but
the Church doesn't possess infallibility. That's a

628
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:50,000
contradiction. I never said that decision. You said God used the Church.

629
00:45:50,199 --> 00:45:52,599
The Holy Spirit made this decision within
history. Do you so the Holy Spirit

630
00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:54,920
did this without the people making the
decision? Is that what you're saying,

631
00:45:57,000 --> 00:46:00,880
The Holy Spirit guided the natural process
of the formation of the canon. And

632
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:07,360
at what point was it a binding
decision? There's no way. That's like

633
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,079
the fallacy of the beard. The
beard fallacy, it's not a fallacy when

634
00:46:10,079 --> 00:46:14,760
it's your argument. You argue that
this was a process, and at what

635
00:46:14,840 --> 00:46:17,280
point was the process complete? Is
it still ongoing? Can we still we

636
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:22,679
don't know the canon? Still?
The Beard fallacy is what you're saying,

637
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:27,199
like, just because just because you
can't know when something because becomes something that

638
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:34,880
means. So you don't know the
canon. We don't have infallible certainty about

639
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:39,480
the canon. Okay. Was when
was the infallible historical decision? Well,

640
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:43,679
like I said, there was not
an infallible historical decision. It was a

641
00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:47,199
infallible natural process guided by an infallible
god. Okay, so it's still ongoing,

642
00:46:47,199 --> 00:46:51,880
it's not done. We don't know
the canon yet. Well to this

643
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,159
day there's still work being done in
like translating, so exactly. That.

644
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,360
So in Protestantism, there's not normative
authority. Nobody can bind anybody to this

645
00:46:59,440 --> 00:47:02,239
decision. There's not You don't have
a canon. This is why Luther doubted

646
00:47:02,239 --> 00:47:07,679
the canon, and after him the
Protestant tradition in Germany destroyed the canon with

647
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:13,559
higher criticism. You understand, you're
in the same position. So the I

648
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:15,440
don't know, of course, hy
there is the higher criticism thing that has

649
00:47:15,519 --> 00:47:19,320
nothing to do with with Luther or
anything Luthor. Of course it does.

650
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,559
What do you mean, that's it's
a historical fact that many scholars today in

651
00:47:22,599 --> 00:47:27,800
the trade in in many traditions,
will date the beginning of higher criticism to

652
00:47:27,880 --> 00:47:30,760
Luther. What do you mean it
has no has no basis in history.

653
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:36,760
So you disagree with today's consensus amongst
most scholars, scholars and evangelicalism that that

654
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:39,320
the destruction of the Bible begins with
the questioning of I mean, you know

655
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:43,920
Luther doubted a lot of the text, right, Yeah, but again,

656
00:47:44,039 --> 00:47:46,679
our Protestants are not bound by Luther. Here, you're not bound by anybody,

657
00:47:46,679 --> 00:47:51,320
are you. We're bound by our
confessions. Are Wait, you're not

658
00:47:51,320 --> 00:47:54,239
bound by your No, you're not. You're not bound by confessions. Yeah

659
00:47:54,280 --> 00:47:59,599
we are, No, you're not. Your confessions say that no post Apostolic

660
00:47:59,639 --> 00:48:02,519
creed council or confession can bind your
conscience. Well, depends on what you

661
00:48:02,599 --> 00:48:06,960
mean by buying. It's like,
what do your confessions mean with the Bible

662
00:48:07,039 --> 00:48:09,280
is but it's still authority. If
it's like a pastor, a pastor is

663
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,920
not infallible. A pastor is still
in authority you have to submit to.

664
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:16,760
Again, you're confusing existential certitude with
normative authority. Because I can just go

665
00:48:16,800 --> 00:48:20,599
down the street to the next strip
mall if I don't like my pastor there,

666
00:48:20,639 --> 00:48:22,639
if he excommunicates me, I can
start my own Protestant church canton.

667
00:48:23,639 --> 00:48:27,440
If I get excommunicated from the Orthodox
Church. I can go to the Catholic

668
00:48:27,480 --> 00:48:30,199
Church. What's the difference. You're
not understanding. That's two different that's two

669
00:48:30,239 --> 00:48:35,360
different categories, because I'm talking about
a single body within history that has authority

670
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:37,760
to bind people. When the Council
of Nicea meets, do you think that

671
00:48:37,840 --> 00:48:42,920
they saw themselves as having the authority
to bind people to the Niceeing Creed and

672
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:47,679
to excommunicate people like areas the Council
of Nicea was convened for the specific decision

673
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:52,079
of the church needs to all gather
to agree on what the faith is.

674
00:48:52,199 --> 00:48:55,519
Did you not hear my question?
I don't. I don't know exactly what

675
00:48:55,599 --> 00:48:59,760
the council. Wait a minute,
so then, how do you know about

676
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,320
the historic historical formation of the canon
If you don't know what Nicea taught.

677
00:49:04,239 --> 00:49:07,800
I know what Nicea taught. You
asked what the mindset of the people was,

678
00:49:07,880 --> 00:49:08,480
I don't know exactly what the mind
is. Well, I mean,

679
00:49:08,519 --> 00:49:14,920
Athanasius says that the Holy Spirit guided
in Nicea, and did they excommunicate areas?

680
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,440
They did? Okay, so they
thought they had the ability and authority

681
00:49:17,519 --> 00:49:22,880
to do that, right in an
ecumenical synod, Right, just like Protestants

682
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:27,400
do. Yes, Protestants do not
do that. Where where was the last

683
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:35,239
Protestant synod that excommunicated in anybody like
areas? We haven't, right, it

684
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:37,440
doesn't exist. You have an ecumenical
council to spell it. You don't have

685
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,119
any You don't have all you have
Presbyterians, I will give you credit.

686
00:49:40,199 --> 00:49:45,079
You do have synods, you have
local synods, which is Presbyterian church government.

687
00:49:45,639 --> 00:49:50,280
But actually the decision of those people
at Nicia. You understand they were

688
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,159
bishops, right. Have you read
Nicia? Yes, I know that Nicea

689
00:49:53,199 --> 00:49:57,480
had bishops. Okay, have you
read the Canons? Yes? I know

690
00:49:57,519 --> 00:50:01,559
the Canons have a very bishop oriented
structure episcopal right, well, you know

691
00:50:01,639 --> 00:50:05,400
you can find the episcopacy prior to
not see it. Right? Have you

692
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,519
read those Church Fathers? Yes?
I know that there's like bishop lists very

693
00:50:08,559 --> 00:50:14,000
early on. But the scholarship is
still debated. It's like the best scholarship,

694
00:50:14,239 --> 00:50:16,679
best neutral scholarship says that in some
regions there was episcopacy, in some

695
00:50:16,719 --> 00:50:21,880
regions there was Presbyterian government. Eventually
the episcopacy won out. Oh, like

696
00:50:22,079 --> 00:50:29,760
scholars like who I can't list specifically? Right? Have you read iran As.

697
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,000
I know that that's what Urnaus said, that there was the bishop lists.

698
00:50:34,039 --> 00:50:37,480
But then you also have Saint Jerome
who said that elder used to be

699
00:50:37,519 --> 00:50:43,280
identical with bishop until basically the first
among equals, like the highest elder,

700
00:50:43,639 --> 00:50:46,880
ended up getting more and more authority
until he became a bishop. Well,

701
00:50:47,079 --> 00:50:52,079
where does he say that? I
mean the episcopacy. The structure in the

702
00:50:52,119 --> 00:50:55,400
New Testament. Episcopacy is mirrored on
the Old Testament, right, so bishop

703
00:50:57,000 --> 00:51:01,119
presbyter at deacon that mirrors high priests, priest LEVI. So I'm not sure

704
00:51:01,119 --> 00:51:07,159
where you're getting that. I mean
Jerome wrote about, you know, Relex,

705
00:51:07,199 --> 00:51:10,599
he wrote about he wrote to Pope
Damasis, Right, So it's like,

706
00:51:10,679 --> 00:51:15,840
I'm not an Episcopalian, but how
would you respond to Protestants who are

707
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,519
Piscapelians, who do have that structure
and who do have councils that excommunicate people.

708
00:51:21,559 --> 00:51:24,760
Protestants do not typically have councils that
excommunicate people. I mean, tell

709
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,400
me of that. When was the
last time Protestants did this. I mean,

710
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,400
maybe there's some synods somewhere that did
this, but I'm not aware of

711
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,639
it. Well, we haven't needed
to have an accuaty. So are there

712
00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:39,559
heretics. There are heretics, and
heretics do get excommunicated from Protestant churches.

713
00:51:43,559 --> 00:51:46,480
But what I'm saying is that in
the Orthodox conception, you're either in or

714
00:51:46,519 --> 00:51:52,000
you're out right. And that's the
attitude of the church in the councils.

715
00:51:52,079 --> 00:51:55,639
When Nicia meets, they excommunicate areas
Aris can go start his own group,

716
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:59,840
but he's no longer part of the
body of people that met it at Nice.

717
00:52:00,079 --> 00:52:02,760
Yeah. When cost Centinople one happens, you get the same attitude of

718
00:52:02,840 --> 00:52:09,639
excommunicating the Macedonians and the Apollinarians.
When ethicist meets, you get the rejection

719
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:15,519
of Nestorianism. Yeah, historians and
then the Monophysites and all that. Yeah,

720
00:52:15,599 --> 00:52:17,800
And by the way, do you
understand that you're the Calvinism actually holds

721
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,880
a bunch of those same positions that
are condemned in the first seven Councils,

722
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:27,280
like monothelitism, mono energism, and
Nestorianism. Since since whin are Calvinists monopheltis?

723
00:52:27,519 --> 00:52:31,360
Where are getting that from? The
debate about monothelicism turns into a debate

724
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:37,199
about mono energism. So mono energism
is what the result of the Monothelite debate

725
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:42,199
is. How do Calvinists agree with
that? Because you believe in mono energism

726
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,000
and conversion. Monogism is not the
same as mono energism, Yes, it

727
00:52:47,079 --> 00:52:52,000
is, it's the end result of
that. The debate that Maximus has with

728
00:52:52,119 --> 00:52:58,320
Piis is identical to the debates that
the Protestants have about conversion. How So,

729
00:52:59,599 --> 00:53:02,519
how is monoery because the divine energy
has to overcome the human energy.

730
00:53:05,199 --> 00:53:07,440
That's the debate that Maximus has with
Peis. And so the Calvinist position of

731
00:53:07,519 --> 00:53:14,920
mono energism in anthropology is already condemned
at the sixth Council when it rejects Peris's

732
00:53:14,960 --> 00:53:23,039
anthropology. So that's you're saying that
the logical conclusion of mono energism is Calviny.

733
00:53:23,079 --> 00:53:29,159
That's just because now that the six
Council also affirms the essence energy distinction

734
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:34,559
in human anthropology, which means that
man has free will. So is there

735
00:53:34,760 --> 00:53:38,079
like some reformed confession that says,
you know, the fifth and sixth councils

736
00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:43,519
were wrong. We actually believe in
mono energism and monothelticism. Where does it

737
00:53:43,559 --> 00:53:45,639
say that it doesn't. That's not
even required. I don't have to have

738
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:51,639
that if if you guys affirm mono
energism and conversion, because the same argument

739
00:53:51,719 --> 00:53:54,039
is refuted at the Six Council.
So I don't need you to say I

740
00:53:54,159 --> 00:53:59,639
affirm mono energism in Christology and I
reject the Six Council. If you have

741
00:53:59,679 --> 00:54:04,559
the equivalent belief, it doesn't really
matter. So I still, this is

742
00:54:04,599 --> 00:54:07,800
the first time I've ever heard of
this. I've always rejected mono energism,

743
00:54:07,880 --> 00:54:14,159
monothelitism, well, holding to a
Calvinist view of conversion. I've never seen

744
00:54:14,159 --> 00:54:17,119
anything. Okay, but that's mono
energism. That's an anthropological view, that's

745
00:54:17,199 --> 00:54:22,519
mono energism. Right. Don't you
believe that the divine grace has to overcome

746
00:54:22,559 --> 00:54:29,880
the human will? The providentially God
changes the human heart. No, it's

747
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:34,000
not just providentially, it's also the
Holy Spirit overcoming the human will. That's

748
00:54:34,039 --> 00:54:37,360
the classical Reformation teaching. Does always
Spirit not have the power to do that.

749
00:54:39,519 --> 00:54:44,280
It's not a question of power,
it's a question of whether there's synergy

750
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:49,360
and whether man always retains his natural
faculties and his human nature. So for

751
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:52,920
your position, basically man loses his
natural faculties and you have a you have

752
00:54:53,000 --> 00:55:00,199
it, not just a christological but
anthropological heresy. So you're saying that mankind

753
00:55:00,320 --> 00:55:06,719
needs to have free will in matters
of salvation all the time or it's mono

754
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:10,480
energism correct, So that if that's
true, then post you know, resurrection,

755
00:55:12,199 --> 00:55:14,320
Uh, how do we know we're
not just gonna How do we know

756
00:55:14,440 --> 00:55:15,679
humanity is not just going to fall
again? If there's going to be free

757
00:55:15,719 --> 00:55:22,440
will post resurrection? Oh you mean
the escaton? Yeah, yeah, Because

758
00:55:22,519 --> 00:55:28,519
this is the problem that's posed with
all Augustinian systems, which is called dialectical

759
00:55:28,599 --> 00:55:31,960
willing. So in the Augustinian possession
your choice, you're forced to and either

760
00:55:32,039 --> 00:55:37,000
a choice between good or evil as
the determiner of what free will is.

761
00:55:37,199 --> 00:55:40,800
And in the Orthodox of you,
we explicitly reject that free will is a

762
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,679
choice between multiple goods, not a
choice between good and evil. So there's

763
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:51,000
multiple there's multiple goods to will in
the ascton. If free will is not

764
00:55:51,079 --> 00:55:53,519
a choice between good and evil,
then why do we why do people need

765
00:55:53,559 --> 00:55:57,760
a free will decision in this life
to choose between having faith and not having

766
00:55:57,800 --> 00:56:02,039
faith? Well, it's a question
of how humans are made such that free

767
00:56:02,079 --> 00:56:07,280
will, in the Patristic definition pretty
consistently is the ability to choose different outcomes

768
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:12,079
or different options. So, for
example, Adam and Eve had free will

769
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,039
when there was no evil to choose, and so that necessitates it in the

770
00:56:15,239 --> 00:56:20,159
escaton there will always be free will
even when evil doesn't exist. And so

771
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:23,639
the argument then is that there's no
beativic vision, for example, because the

772
00:56:23,679 --> 00:56:27,639
beats of vivision just means there's one
thing to will, the divine essence.

773
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,719
But if there's multiple goods, multiple
things to will, that's how you preserve

774
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:36,079
free will without a dialectical definition.
But if you go back to Libido Dominondi

775
00:56:36,119 --> 00:56:39,599
and what Augustine talks about in the
City of God, he defines free will

776
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,880
as the choice between good and evil, and whether the will is directed towards

777
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:49,119
God at all times or whether it's
directed towards creatures. And because for him,

778
00:56:49,320 --> 00:56:53,239
sinning is always in some way willing
towards creatures, he could never admit

779
00:56:53,360 --> 00:56:58,639
the possibility of willing multiple goods.
There's a really good book on this called

780
00:56:58,679 --> 00:57:04,119
Free Choice in Saint Maxim that goes
through this whole critique of the Augustinian collapse

781
00:57:04,159 --> 00:57:09,119
of willing. And this is because
Augustine collapses person into nature in the triad

782
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:15,079
just as well as in anthropology,
and so this is what happens in Calvinism

783
00:57:15,159 --> 00:57:21,079
when in Calvinism you get the collapsing
of a person into nature in humans,

784
00:57:21,119 --> 00:57:23,719
which means this is why all humans
are damned in Adam in the Calvinistic view.

785
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:29,079
So humans are damned in now Adam
because Adam is seen as an as

786
00:57:29,119 --> 00:57:32,639
a as a figure containing all of
the archetypes of the humans that would come

787
00:57:32,679 --> 00:57:36,639
to be right. So he's the
archetype of man. And so when he

788
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,760
sennd, he basically brought damnation upon
all his descendants. But this is actually

789
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:45,480
a collapsing of person into nature heresy, which is based on the collapsing of

790
00:57:45,559 --> 00:57:50,519
purchase person into nature in the triad, which basically Calvinists all default. They

791
00:57:50,639 --> 00:57:54,440
default to adopting the Augustinian collapsing of
person into nature in the Trinity as well,

792
00:57:54,639 --> 00:58:00,440
due to define Cer, Augustine collapsed
person to nature in the trinity iplicitly

793
00:58:00,519 --> 00:58:05,599
argues that person is nature on the
Trinity. I've not heard of that,

794
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:09,480
I've I'm not sure if Calvinists would
agree with him on that if he said

795
00:58:09,519 --> 00:58:14,480
that, which I'm not sure of. So what do you mean by collapsing

796
00:58:14,559 --> 00:58:17,400
person into nature? Does that mean
Augustin did not believe it was one nature

797
00:58:17,400 --> 00:58:22,719
of three persons. No, it
means that he was inconsistent because he was

798
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:28,360
trying to use a lot of neoplatonic
ideas to figure out how to philosophically argue

799
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:34,239
for divine simplicity and the unity of
God, the being of God, and

800
00:58:34,360 --> 00:58:38,119
then later on to try to figure
out how there's distinctions in that primal unity.

801
00:58:38,639 --> 00:58:43,840
So he came up with things like
relations of opposition. He came up

802
00:58:43,880 --> 00:58:49,960
with things like speculating about the human
psychological analogy to mind and will and spirit

803
00:58:50,119 --> 00:58:54,360
and breath, all of which are
not accurate in terms of the ontological trinity.

804
00:58:54,400 --> 00:59:00,960
So that's why the Second Ecumenical Council
it didn't accept the Augustinian doctrine of

805
00:59:00,000 --> 00:59:06,440
the trinity. The Second Ecumenical Council
accepts almost wholesale the Cappadocian doctrine of the

806
00:59:06,480 --> 00:59:08,320
trinity. So, by the way, if you want to be orthodox in

807
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:14,239
terms of Trinitarian theology, you got
to accept constantinople one you can't accept the

808
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:19,000
Calvinist Augustinian model of the trinity.
So you'll agree that the Calvinist model of

809
00:59:19,000 --> 00:59:24,360
the trinity is consistent with Augustine.
Yeah, on most points mostly. Yeah,

810
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:29,519
yeah, absolutely, So you're you're
in the camp that agrees that Augustine

811
00:59:29,519 --> 00:59:32,840
taught some sort of philioku right,
of course. I mean he's explicit on

812
00:59:32,920 --> 00:59:37,639
the Trinity many passes. In fact, Lyons and Florence both quote that section

813
00:59:37,880 --> 00:59:42,159
in on the Trinity when they're arguing
for what the Phillioquay is. So the

814
00:59:42,239 --> 00:59:45,559
double eternal hypastetic procession quote in Lyons
in Florence is from on the Trinity of

815
00:59:45,599 --> 00:59:52,960
Augustine. Yeah. So I know
that we definitely need to talk about the

816
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:54,840
phillyokuay because that's like the biggest thing
here. Well, hold on before we

817
00:59:54,920 --> 00:59:58,440
go to that though, before we
go to phillyoquay. Well, I'll let

818
00:59:58,480 --> 01:00:00,960
you make your point there. There's
one I want to ask you about.

819
01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:02,480
To go ahead, I was going
to go back to the mono energism.

820
01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:09,519
I'm still not understanding. So can
you briefly define mono energism and then define

821
01:00:10,039 --> 01:00:16,239
then explain how Calvism is that.
Well, so mono Energism in Christology is

822
01:00:16,599 --> 01:00:22,800
the idea that in Christ, the
human will had to be overcome or supplanted,

823
01:00:23,239 --> 01:00:28,880
and so the divine will and energy
functions to do that. So while

824
01:00:29,920 --> 01:00:32,760
somebody might be a Monofycite, they
might think, okay, I can admit

825
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,639
maybe there's a duality in Christ.
Maybe it's even some kind of duality of

826
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:44,599
human and divine, but his will
and his operation are somehow a blended thing

827
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:49,679
because or the divine takes over the
human will. And the idea was that

828
01:00:49,920 --> 01:00:53,519
the human will was so fallen and
so damaged that in Christ, if he

829
01:00:53,559 --> 01:00:58,679
assumes our nature, and if he's
going to assume the nature that he wants

830
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:04,280
to heal, he's going to have
to overcome the natural antipathy that the human

831
01:01:04,360 --> 01:01:08,239
willing has against the divine will.
So Maximus and Peris have this long debate

832
01:01:09,000 --> 01:01:14,440
in Maximus's book Disputation with Pearis,
where they start arguing about the text and

833
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,119
the Garden, where Jesus is saying, let this cut pass from me,

834
01:01:17,599 --> 01:01:24,039
and Peeris says that that's proof that
Christ, that the divine will in Christ

835
01:01:24,519 --> 01:01:30,360
supplants and takes over the human will
because the human will doesn't want to die,

836
01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:35,400
and so it's naturally antip there's an
natural antithesis between the human will and

837
01:01:35,440 --> 01:01:39,760
divine will, and Maximus goes to
great lengths to point out that in human

838
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:45,440
nature, even after the fall,
there's not a natural antipathy because everything that

839
01:01:45,519 --> 01:01:49,000
God creates is good. So there's
no such thing as evil nature. That

840
01:01:49,079 --> 01:01:52,320
would be Manichean. There would be
a gnostic kind of heresy to say that

841
01:01:52,519 --> 01:01:57,239
nature takes on the potentiality or the
power of being evil. There's no such

842
01:01:57,280 --> 01:02:00,639
thing as an evil nature, because
that would be to make God a creator

843
01:02:00,679 --> 01:02:02,199
of evil. And God says that
he's not a great He says what he

844
01:02:02,239 --> 01:02:07,880
creates a whole nature. So man, even though man's fallen in in Maximus's

845
01:02:07,239 --> 01:02:14,280
argumentation that text, it's the same
natural will pre and post fall, and

846
01:02:14,440 --> 01:02:17,519
so the fallen will is not in
itself evil, but it does have the

847
01:02:17,599 --> 01:02:22,599
desire to free from flee from pain, it does have proclivity to sin,

848
01:02:23,079 --> 01:02:28,760
but it's still not in itself inherently
sinful. And he argues that for Christ

849
01:02:28,840 --> 01:02:34,000
to assume the nature that's consubstantial with
us, the nature that we possess then

850
01:02:34,119 --> 01:02:37,880
must also be identical to the nature
that Christ assumed so we have in our

851
01:02:37,039 --> 01:02:42,840
in our nature's body, mind,
soul, will, that's the nat that's

852
01:02:42,880 --> 01:02:46,039
the natural faculties. And then the
person is the being, that the individual

853
01:02:46,079 --> 01:02:51,440
of the subject, of the agent
that has that nature. So Christ assumed

854
01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:57,159
universal human nature. That means he
assumed everybody's nature, and that's why everybody's

855
01:02:57,199 --> 01:03:00,480
resurrected. In Calvinism, by the
way, there's not an explanation as to

856
01:03:00,559 --> 01:03:05,800
why all men are resurrected because Calvinists
do not believe that Christ assumed universal human

857
01:03:05,880 --> 01:03:08,880
nature. Calvinists believe that he died
basically only for the elect, and so

858
01:03:09,039 --> 01:03:14,320
while there might be common grace that
extends to the non elect, Christ is

859
01:03:14,440 --> 01:03:17,519
not assuming universal human nature, and
therefore he does not raise all human beings.

860
01:03:17,639 --> 01:03:22,239
So then the question becomes that's that's
not entirely. The question then becomes

861
01:03:22,320 --> 01:03:27,159
for the Calvinists or for the Augustinian, then why does God raise all human

862
01:03:27,239 --> 01:03:30,119
beings? And their answer is he
just wills to the question. But the

863
01:03:30,239 --> 01:03:35,960
question is, but if resurrection is
only on the basis of union with Christ's

864
01:03:36,039 --> 01:03:40,440
resurrected human nature, and if reprobates
are not united to Christ, then why

865
01:03:40,559 --> 01:03:46,960
is their nature resurrected. So Calvinism
does not necessarily teach that Christ did not

866
01:03:47,039 --> 01:03:52,440
assume universal human nature. There's many
Calvinists who have taught that, and Carl

867
01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:54,599
Bart really taught. I'm not saying
Carl Bart is like an authority for Calvinists.

868
01:03:54,639 --> 01:03:58,599
He's not at all. But Carl
Bart was drawing on a lot of

869
01:03:59,440 --> 01:04:01,960
other element of the well, Carl
Bart's a universalist. I don't know why

870
01:04:01,960 --> 01:04:08,199
you'd want to sit site a modernist
universalist. He's not a universalist. I

871
01:04:08,239 --> 01:04:10,320
don't even know what he is.
But the point is he's more of like

872
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:15,519
he more than actually being in a
theologian for anything. He basically brings to

873
01:04:15,719 --> 01:04:19,599
mind a lot of recovered, reformed
doctrines that have been forgotten, like his

874
01:04:19,960 --> 01:04:24,760
doctrine that election is fundamentally in Christ
is really Christ. That's the elect like

875
01:04:24,880 --> 01:04:28,000
that exists in Calvin, that exists
in Knocks, that exists in the Westminster

876
01:04:28,079 --> 01:04:30,000
Confession. But wait, wait,
wait, it's wait, it's wait,

877
01:04:30,119 --> 01:04:35,039
it's what Christ. That's what do
you mean? Election is not some abstract

878
01:04:35,119 --> 01:04:39,159
decision of the Father. Election is
in Christ. And of course you would

879
01:04:39,159 --> 01:04:43,400
agree with that, because that's just
in Ephesians A lot of Calvinis had forgotten

880
01:04:43,400 --> 01:04:45,519
about that, and we're talking about
election like it was just some abstract decision

881
01:04:45,559 --> 01:04:50,199
the father made separate from Okay,
well, but Bart does teach universalism,

882
01:04:50,280 --> 01:04:53,920
and this is a big contention between
him and Van Til. They had an

883
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,119
argument over this, and so I
mean, maybe there's a later Bart retraction

884
01:04:57,239 --> 01:04:59,480
of something like that. I don't
know. I'm not a I mean it's

885
01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:02,239
pretty clear or explicitly said I do. I am not a universalist. I

886
01:05:02,320 --> 01:05:08,119
do not teach universalism. I'm not
using it. Okay, Well, so

887
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:14,840
so even if he's not, if
Christ resurrects all human beings and they're united

888
01:05:14,880 --> 01:05:17,599
to him on the basis of universal
human nature, then you're going to have

889
01:05:17,679 --> 01:05:23,679
to have the nature person distinction to
explain why the wicked are in are in

890
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,679
hades or in Hell in the Escaton
and not and not in Theosis or in

891
01:05:27,760 --> 01:05:30,840
grace. Because this, this is
the orthodox argument at this point, is

892
01:05:30,880 --> 01:05:36,039
precisely that the distinction between the mode
of willing according to individual hypostases is precisely

893
01:05:36,159 --> 01:05:42,480
what decides your experience of the Escaton. So that requires you having free will

894
01:05:42,559 --> 01:05:45,639
to have that argument. That's Maximus's
argument against universalism is that because you have

895
01:05:45,800 --> 01:05:50,159
to recapitulate the virtues via your own
mode of willing. So Christ doesn't assume

896
01:05:50,159 --> 01:05:56,960
everybody's hypostasis. He assumes everybody's nature. We agree with that, Yes,

897
01:05:57,400 --> 01:06:00,079
no, you don't. That's not
That is not a Calvinist teaching, not

898
01:06:00,119 --> 01:06:03,199
at all, because you don't teach
that. You don't tell because that requires

899
01:06:03,280 --> 01:06:08,119
free will, that requires synergy.
So what you're doing is you're saying that

900
01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:12,159
Calvinists don't teach X because X is
inconsistent with Why. No, I'm saying

901
01:06:12,199 --> 01:06:15,000
that. I mean that is not
a classical Reformation teaching. Maybe some Calvinist

902
01:06:15,039 --> 01:06:20,119
somewhere teaches that, but that's not
the classical Reformation teaching. Usually what happens

903
01:06:20,199 --> 01:06:25,360
is there's some sort of Calvinists will
like nuance a certain doctrine, and then

904
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:27,159
everyone's be like, oh, they
denied it. For example, like the

905
01:06:27,199 --> 01:06:30,480
eternal generation of the Sun. Calvinists
have a different nuance of what that means

906
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,000
than like a traditional Roman Catholic or
Lutheran position. But then that leads a

907
01:06:34,039 --> 01:06:38,639
lot of Catholics and Lutherans to say
Calvinists are denying this doctrine. Well,

908
01:06:38,719 --> 01:06:43,320
for example, it's also true,
Calvinism does teach that Jesus died for all

909
01:06:43,400 --> 01:06:45,440
people in some sense. But because
of we have this limited comment thing,

910
01:06:45,880 --> 01:06:49,519
some people think, but this is
different, okay, but this is different

911
01:06:49,599 --> 01:06:55,880
from what Maximus's argument is about the
distinction between nature and person in individual human

912
01:06:55,960 --> 01:07:00,079
beings and how that determines your experience
of the ascaton. Maximus is not saying

913
01:07:00,239 --> 01:07:05,719
that your place in the Esketon is
determined on the basis of unconditional election.

914
01:07:06,679 --> 01:07:11,400
Maximus is saying that what your experience, because we're all going to the same

915
01:07:11,519 --> 01:07:15,440
Esketon, because Christ assumed everybody's nature, what determines your experience of the Esketon

916
01:07:15,519 --> 01:07:18,400
will be the mode of willing that
that you engage in in this life,

917
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:23,400
whether to recapitulate the virtues or to
choose evil advice. And that is not

918
01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:28,239
the Calvinistic doction, which is basically
it argues that your determination in the Escton

919
01:07:28,599 --> 01:07:31,480
is number one, based on God's
decision in the Divine Decree, and number

920
01:07:31,480 --> 01:07:36,760
two, it's based on the fact
that you didn't have saving solo fide faith

921
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:43,360
in Christ. Right, that's not
the orthodox Maximus doctrine at all. Sure,

922
01:07:43,480 --> 01:07:46,039
but how does that mean that Calvis
don't distinguish between person and nature,

923
01:07:47,360 --> 01:07:51,639
because the argument that everybody is in
atom as in an archetype is based on

924
01:07:53,079 --> 01:07:59,480
the removal of the distinction between nature
and person and humans. It's an Augustinian

925
01:07:59,559 --> 01:08:04,159
argument that collapses nature in person in
anthropology. So all of us are consubstantial

926
01:08:04,400 --> 01:08:08,639
with Adam. We're not the same
person as Adam, though, right,

927
01:08:08,679 --> 01:08:13,039
And I'm not guilty of Adam's actions. So you've collapsed nature into person to

928
01:08:13,519 --> 01:08:16,560
make that move. Okay, I
can see what you're saying. So you're

929
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:21,560
saying that if we have a nature
person distinction, the fact that Adam personally

930
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:26,720
sinned shouldn't corrupt the entire human nature
for no time. No, it means

931
01:08:26,760 --> 01:08:30,880
that I'm not liable for his I'm
not guilty for his actions. The corruption

932
01:08:30,079 --> 01:08:34,359
can be passed on, not the
guilt. I think what some Protestants have

933
01:08:34,479 --> 01:08:40,760
said about this is that it's not
just nature that's inherited from Adam, that

934
01:08:40,840 --> 01:08:44,520
it's also like personhood, like in
some sense all of us did personally sin.

935
01:08:45,600 --> 01:08:47,039
Right, That's what I'm saying is
a collapsing of nature and the person,

936
01:08:47,079 --> 01:08:50,079
which you just admitted right there.
Correct, that's the Calvinist view,

937
01:08:50,359 --> 01:08:55,039
and I'm saying that's what we reject, that is based on collapsing person in

938
01:08:55,079 --> 01:09:00,279
the nature and anthropology. Well,
just because you're saying that there's some personal

939
01:09:00,399 --> 01:09:04,359
union of all people with Adam,
that does not necessarily mean you're completely collapsing

940
01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:10,319
nature and to person's not black or
white. I'm not. Again, it

941
01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:15,199
is though, because for me to
be represented by Adam does not mean that

942
01:09:15,359 --> 01:09:19,960
I'm personally in Adam before I exist. This is why Scripture says and Ezekiel

943
01:09:20,079 --> 01:09:25,880
that I'm not guilty for the sins
of my father's the corruption and the effects

944
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,000
of the sin can pass on,
just like, for example, you know,

945
01:09:29,159 --> 01:09:33,239
if a mom does crack and she
has a crack baby, the baby

946
01:09:33,399 --> 01:09:38,079
is not guilty for the mom's sin
of crack because sin, in James,

947
01:09:38,279 --> 01:09:43,319
is a specific action of the will
right. James says that desire or passion

948
01:09:43,479 --> 01:09:46,960
or concupiscnce, when it has conceived, it gives birth to sin. So

949
01:09:47,079 --> 01:09:51,000
the desires themselves are not the sin. And by the way, Calvinism classically

950
01:09:51,039 --> 01:09:56,680
and Lutheranism has classically said that the
desires themselves are actually sin as well.

951
01:09:57,199 --> 01:10:00,600
And they say that because if sin
is deflying as a specific act of the

952
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:06,199
will against the divine law or against
you know, the moral law. Then

953
01:10:06,319 --> 01:10:12,079
infants aren't guilty because they're not rationally
making the decision to sin. So Calvinists

954
01:10:12,119 --> 01:10:17,359
and Lutherans at least classically agreed that
concupis sense is sin. They specifically huh,

955
01:10:18,319 --> 01:10:23,279
okay, well, then that's making
my point right there. So now

956
01:10:23,439 --> 01:10:26,399
sin is a state of being.
It's not actually an act of the will

957
01:10:29,239 --> 01:10:33,119
in some sense. You could say
that, yeah, I wouldn't necessarily dispeak

958
01:10:33,159 --> 01:10:35,319
that. Okay. So if sin
is a state of being, then now

959
01:10:35,359 --> 01:10:39,960
you've admitted that God creates because being
refers to existence. Now you're meaning that

960
01:10:40,039 --> 01:10:45,760
God creates sin. No, God
creates on God creates. The nature is

961
01:10:45,800 --> 01:10:48,239
God creates stuff and sin is not. So how is that? But so

962
01:10:48,479 --> 01:10:53,199
if so, it can't be both. It can't be a state of being

963
01:10:53,920 --> 01:10:56,800
and an action of the will.
It's got to be either one. So

964
01:10:57,000 --> 01:11:00,680
if it's a state of being,
then how do you avoid Manichianism? It's

965
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,960
a corruption of being creation, the
Bible says. But so hold on,

966
01:11:04,159 --> 01:11:10,079
So now you're equivocating because we're talking
about guilt. Whether infants are guilty for

967
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:15,760
concupiscence or for having sinful you know, passions or whatever you said. It's

968
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:19,159
a state of being. Are they
guilty for that state of being? Well,

969
01:11:19,239 --> 01:11:24,000
yes, because we believe in original
sin. Well, we believe in

970
01:11:24,119 --> 01:11:28,960
original sin, but not original guilt. So that's the point I'm making here,

971
01:11:29,079 --> 01:11:31,800
is that I'm not guilty for somebody
else's actions. And that's why Scripture

972
01:11:31,840 --> 01:11:35,800
says and Ezekiel that the son shall
not be held liable for the sins of

973
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:40,720
the father. So, I mean, do you think Romans five is contradicting

974
01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:45,760
Ezekiel? How are both of those
passages reconciled? My position reconciles the two

975
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:49,560
because what's passed on is the consequences
of the sin, not the guilt of

976
01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:54,239
the sin. And so that's why
it becomes a debate about the passions and

977
01:11:54,319 --> 01:11:59,000
concupiscence whether those themselves are sin.
And so you're admitting the reform, the

978
01:11:59,039 --> 01:12:03,840
classical reformation position that yes, infants
are guilty because they possess sinful passions or

979
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:09,560
desires. But the point is that
that makes sin now a state of being

980
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:14,079
and not a specific action of the
will, because infants are not using their

981
01:12:14,119 --> 01:12:20,319
will to to rationally make the choice
against God's commandments. Well, there's a

982
01:12:20,359 --> 01:12:25,560
difference between sin and sins, as
I'm sure you know. So no,

983
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:30,439
well that's hold on, that's your
position. But that's we would say that

984
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,600
there's no such thing as sin as
a state of being, because that's Manichean.

985
01:12:35,159 --> 01:12:40,880
Evil is not a state of being
if there's no such thing as inherited

986
01:12:41,119 --> 01:12:45,119
sin, if like you're no,
yeah, right, not inherited guilty,

987
01:12:45,560 --> 01:12:47,840
that's what you believe. So if
that's the case, then could a baby

988
01:12:48,199 --> 01:12:55,399
theoretically be born and not sin at
all? Sure? Because sin is a

989
01:12:55,479 --> 01:13:00,199
specific act of the will. And
if that's why, Isaiah, let's could

990
01:13:00,199 --> 01:13:03,479
a baby be born? Could someone
be born and grow up and just never

991
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:09,359
sin? Well, now you said
grow up right? Isaiah talks about before

992
01:13:09,479 --> 01:13:13,359
the child comes to the age to
know to choose the good versus the evil.

993
01:13:13,720 --> 01:13:15,399
So there is a point in each
child's life where they get to the

994
01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:19,000
age where they do know the difference
between good and evil, and that might

995
01:13:19,079 --> 01:13:21,840
be that might differ from child to
child in terms of, you know,

996
01:13:21,920 --> 01:13:27,760
their level of maturation and how fast
they mature. But they're not guilty of

997
01:13:28,159 --> 01:13:32,359
any actions until they guilt is hypostatic
is what I'm trying to say. Personal

998
01:13:32,600 --> 01:13:39,800
guilt is not a feature of nature, and calvinism is predicated on guilt in

999
01:13:39,960 --> 01:13:45,359
nature. Sure, let's so if
that's the case, so every when the

1000
01:13:45,439 --> 01:13:47,359
child grows up, and when they
do know the difference between good and evil,

1001
01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:49,680
they still have a free will choice
whether to choose good or evil or

1002
01:13:49,880 --> 01:13:56,479
right? Right? So could someone
grow up and be faced with choices between

1003
01:13:56,520 --> 01:14:01,359
good and evil and choose the good
every time? No, Because of our

1004
01:14:01,399 --> 01:14:06,560
fallen state and because of the presence
of concupiscence or the passions we are,

1005
01:14:08,199 --> 01:14:12,039
we tend to choose sinful actions.
You tend to choose sinful actions. But

1006
01:14:12,239 --> 01:14:15,840
is it possible, Like, let's
say that a child grows up the first

1007
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:18,359
time they have a choice between good
and evil. Could they make a good

1008
01:14:18,439 --> 01:14:21,800
choice the first time? Yes?
What about the second time? Yeah?

1009
01:14:23,279 --> 01:14:26,359
What about the third time? Well, it's not going to happen that they

1010
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:30,079
ever do this consistently throughout their life
because there is a proclivity. So the

1011
01:14:30,159 --> 01:14:33,840
proclivity so even though I can't tell
you specifically at what point they will choose

1012
01:14:33,880 --> 01:14:36,800
that. But that doesn't mean that
it's necessary. It's a different type of

1013
01:14:36,920 --> 01:14:42,720
necessity. If you look at like
Leibnitz, he distinguishes different types of necessity.

1014
01:14:42,880 --> 01:14:47,079
So, but it doesn't mean that
that they will never do this.

1015
01:14:47,319 --> 01:14:50,439
And I'll give you an example of
this. I mean, do you think

1016
01:14:50,479 --> 01:14:58,680
that Christ assumed the same nature that
we have? Yes? Do you?

1017
01:14:58,840 --> 01:15:01,279
You don't believe in the immaculate though, right like Roman Catholics. Right,

1018
01:15:01,880 --> 01:15:08,800
So if Christ assumed the nature that
we have, and he's consubstantial with us,

1019
01:15:09,239 --> 01:15:13,840
do you think that he had a
sinful fallen nature? Well, no,

1020
01:15:14,039 --> 01:15:17,119
because sin is not part of our
nature. It's a corruption of our

1021
01:15:17,239 --> 01:15:21,079
nature, but it's not part of
our nature. It's like you're confusing things.

1022
01:15:21,520 --> 01:15:26,199
The sin is not the same thing
as the corruption. That's two different

1023
01:15:26,239 --> 01:15:32,039
things. Well, I agree,
Jesus did not assume sin, and he

1024
01:15:32,079 --> 01:15:36,279
did not assume a sinful nature.
But he has the same nature as us.

1025
01:15:36,359 --> 01:15:40,600
So how is it not a sinful
nature? Well, because, like

1026
01:15:40,680 --> 01:15:44,479
I said, it's not. It's
not the essence of the essence of the

1027
01:15:44,600 --> 01:15:46,640
human nature. There's no sin in
that. So to be truly human,

1028
01:15:46,720 --> 01:15:49,640
Jesus doesn't have to be. Okay, So there's no such thing as a

1029
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:56,640
state of sin. Well, it
depends what by state it's like it seems

1030
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,439
like wordplate to me. Well,
no, because I just argue that from

1031
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:04,800
the reference tradition, infants are in
a state of sin because they have concupiscence.

1032
01:16:05,159 --> 01:16:10,560
So wearing a white shirt right now, I could theoretically splatter spaghetti on

1033
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:14,159
it. But my friend could get
the same white shirt as me. It

1034
01:16:14,199 --> 01:16:16,880
doesn't require having the spaghetti splashed all
over it. That's like Jesus nature and

1035
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:20,479
our nature. Our nature has been
corrupted since now. But again it's a

1036
01:16:20,520 --> 01:16:25,760
failed analogy because sin is not a
substantial thing. Sin is not it doesn't

1037
01:16:25,800 --> 01:16:30,079
have being. So to use analogies
like the stain or the taint of original

1038
01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:33,600
sin, those are fine as analogies, but they don't work at the level

1039
01:16:33,600 --> 01:16:38,399
that we're talking about, which is
in terms of metaphysics, because sin has

1040
01:16:38,479 --> 01:16:42,239
no being. It's a deprivation in
the sense of moving the will away from

1041
01:16:42,279 --> 01:16:45,119
the good. So to sin is
to act. It's an act against God's

1042
01:16:45,199 --> 01:16:48,920
will. Right, but hold on, but infants, But here's the difference

1043
01:16:48,960 --> 01:16:56,399
here. Infants do not act consciously
against God's will. And that's why the

1044
01:16:56,520 --> 01:17:00,840
reformers, they knew this. They
had to then say to restore, to

1045
01:17:00,319 --> 01:17:05,840
save that Augustinian doctrine of original guilt. They had to then say that concupiscence

1046
01:17:05,920 --> 01:17:10,640
in the passions are also sin,
and that's what I'm taking issue with,

1047
01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:14,600
And I'm saying that that doesn't make
any sense because if the passions are themselves

1048
01:17:14,680 --> 01:17:19,800
sin, then we all possess sin, and Jesus does as well, because

1049
01:17:19,920 --> 01:17:26,319
Jesus has certain desires and passions,
because he's consubstantial with us. In Orthodox

1050
01:17:26,399 --> 01:17:30,239
Church, we don't believe that he
has the blameful passions, but he does

1051
01:17:30,399 --> 01:17:34,239
hunger, he does thirst, he
does desire things just like every other human

1052
01:17:34,319 --> 01:17:40,079
being desires then, although without sin, and so if you equate the desires

1053
01:17:40,399 --> 01:17:44,560
proper to our human state with sin, then Jesus is also a sinner.

1054
01:17:45,439 --> 01:17:48,479
Well, Jesus didn't have sinful desires, he had normal That's why I'm arguing

1055
01:17:48,560 --> 01:17:53,239
that you have to make the distinctions
that I'm making so that you don't say

1056
01:17:53,319 --> 01:17:56,840
that sin is a state of being. Then you can't have the Calvinist view.

1057
01:17:57,880 --> 01:18:00,640
Okay, so I'll answer that I
want to go back to the So

1058
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:04,319
is it true that in Orthodoxy you
don't believe in that there's original guilt and

1059
01:18:04,399 --> 01:18:10,319
you also believe that every choice between
good and evil is a truly free will

1060
01:18:10,399 --> 01:18:14,119
choice. If that's the case,
it's theoretically possible for someone to grow up

1061
01:18:14,359 --> 01:18:16,479
and become an adult and never sin
and not need Jesus to die for them.

1062
01:18:16,520 --> 01:18:20,680
That's what orthodoxy keaches. No,
it's not possible, because we inherit

1063
01:18:21,640 --> 01:18:29,399
a status that is that does have
a proclivity towards sin. So then either

1064
01:18:29,479 --> 01:18:32,720
we really either we don't have free
will, or it's theoretically possible for us

1065
01:18:32,760 --> 01:18:35,199
to never sin and not need Jesus
to die for us. Now that's a

1066
01:18:35,279 --> 01:18:40,920
false dichotomy because even though I possess
that power, it doesn't mean that in

1067
01:18:41,079 --> 01:18:45,479
the fallen state, I'm going to
always exercise that power correctly. So that's

1068
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:49,079
that's the false equivalence there. Well, like I said, it's like the

1069
01:18:49,119 --> 01:18:51,439
first choice someone makes. Can they
make the right choice the first time?

1070
01:18:51,520 --> 01:18:55,119
Yes, second time yes, third
time yes. So if you say at

1071
01:18:55,119 --> 01:18:57,720
a certain number of times they can
no longer make the right choice, then

1072
01:18:57,760 --> 01:18:59,760
that means they don't have a free
will decision. No, it's a false

1073
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:04,279
it's it's a it's a false expectation
for me to be able to tell you

1074
01:19:04,399 --> 01:19:08,000
at what point a person's going to
sin. I mean, Paul actually argues

1075
01:19:08,039 --> 01:19:12,439
this way in Romans, where he
talks about before he before he knew about

1076
01:19:12,560 --> 01:19:15,439
sin, he had no sin,
and then when he learned about sin,

1077
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:18,000
he then had and took on the
desire to want to sin because of the

1078
01:19:18,039 --> 01:19:24,479
fallen state. So you basically you're
arguing as if there's not a fallen state.

1079
01:19:24,600 --> 01:19:27,880
I'm saying there is a fallen state. But because I can't tell you

1080
01:19:28,000 --> 01:19:31,199
at what point a person will choose
sin, doesn't mean that they can never

1081
01:19:31,399 --> 01:19:34,800
or will never choose sin. It's
it's a it's a non sequitur because again

1082
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:40,239
we're in the fallen state. It's
just simply preserving the fact that sin is,

1083
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:44,800
as James says, not concupiscence.
Do you understand in the text that

1084
01:19:44,920 --> 01:19:48,319
James says he doesn't equate desire with
sin. He says, sin is when

1085
01:19:48,359 --> 01:19:53,319
you consent to the desire against God's
will, not the desire itself. We

1086
01:19:53,479 --> 01:19:56,840
have a free will choice whether or
not to consent to the desire every time,

1087
01:19:56,920 --> 01:20:00,840
right, Yeah, if that's the
case, it's possible. No,

1088
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:04,520
it's not. So it's again it's
two different types. As a mathematical contradiction

1089
01:20:04,640 --> 01:20:08,680
right there, No, it's not. It's two different types of so mathematical

1090
01:20:08,720 --> 01:20:12,800
contradictions aren't going to apply to the
metaphysical domain. Is like, that's why

1091
01:20:12,800 --> 01:20:15,479
I've said you could look at Leibniz
for different types of necessity. There's not

1092
01:20:15,680 --> 01:20:18,720
just one type of necessity, right, And this is the typical sort of

1093
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:24,359
Calvinist dialectical thinking. You can have
a necessity X hypothesi, which is what

1094
01:20:25,000 --> 01:20:28,439
it's an example that he gives of
this type of a thing where just because

1095
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:33,800
something will happen, it doesn't necessitate
that you know at what point it is

1096
01:20:33,840 --> 01:20:40,279
going to happen, right, And
that type of necessity doesn't remove the fact

1097
01:20:40,319 --> 01:20:43,319
that you're making that choice or that
decision. Right. So it's kind of

1098
01:20:43,479 --> 01:20:47,439
like, let's bring it back to
the question of Christ right, like in

1099
01:20:47,560 --> 01:20:53,960
Christ, because for the Orthodox the
paradigm is always Christ. Right. If

1100
01:20:54,039 --> 01:20:58,760
Christ has the same desires that we
have except for sin, do you admit

1101
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:01,359
that he did have desires? Right? Like he desired water, food?

1102
01:21:01,560 --> 01:21:11,239
You know? Yeah, he was
he was divinity. Wait what now according

1103
01:21:11,239 --> 01:21:16,680
to his humanity, I desired yeah, right, So if desires themselves are

1104
01:21:16,720 --> 01:21:20,319
sin though, then or a state
of sin, As is the case with

1105
01:21:20,399 --> 01:21:27,000
the Reformation argument about infants. Then
when Jesus was desiring when he was a

1106
01:21:27,159 --> 01:21:31,680
child, wasn't he's sinning in those
actions? Well? Was he desiring sinful

1107
01:21:31,760 --> 01:21:36,720
things? Well, it doesn't matter
because you've already admitted that. As for

1108
01:21:36,920 --> 01:21:44,000
James one and the Reformation tradition,
the doctrine is that sin is the desire

1109
01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:47,720
because that's what makes infants guilty,
because we're the sons of Adam, you

1110
01:21:47,840 --> 01:21:49,920
see. So how do we In
other words, the question is how do

1111
01:21:50,000 --> 01:21:55,119
we have original guilt for infants?
The response to the Reformation tradition is that

1112
01:21:55,720 --> 01:22:01,000
infants have sinful passions and sinful desires, so the desires themselves are now sin

1113
01:22:01,079 --> 01:22:05,039
you see. And I'm saying,
if Jesus is consubstantial with us, right

1114
01:22:05,079 --> 01:22:08,560
because he took on our nature to
heal it, to save it, right,

1115
01:22:09,199 --> 01:22:12,720
then Jesus has the same desires in
your view, correct or not?

1116
01:22:12,880 --> 01:22:17,600
Or do you have to make a
distinction between the passions or the desires and

1117
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:21,279
the act of sin. That's how
you our view gets out of the dilemma.

1118
01:22:21,319 --> 01:22:26,600
And I'm saying your view doesn't go
ahead. Con cubisins is a corruption

1119
01:22:26,880 --> 01:22:30,319
of natural human desires and it makes
But you're now you're shying away from saying

1120
01:22:30,319 --> 01:22:33,520
it's a sin because you know that
that's the argument that reformers used to say

1121
01:22:33,560 --> 01:22:38,319
that infants are guilty. Said,
I've said many times, desire to sin

1122
01:22:38,600 --> 01:22:43,119
is sin? No, No,
no desires, desires passions and infants are

1123
01:22:43,159 --> 01:22:47,119
they sin or or or do they
produce guilt? What the desire is?

1124
01:22:47,159 --> 01:22:55,960
Desiring food is not sin? Infant
do infants desire to sin? Well,

1125
01:22:56,239 --> 01:23:00,119
the reason that infants are guilty is
not necessarily because of what they desire.

1126
01:23:00,159 --> 01:23:03,960
It's because of inherited guilt. Which
that's well, that's not true because the

1127
01:23:04,079 --> 01:23:10,119
question is amongst the reformers, is
concupiscence sin and they say, yes,

1128
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:16,920
desire to sin no, No.
Concupiscence is desire passions. Desire is plural,

1129
01:23:17,119 --> 01:23:20,800
right, so it can be desires
for all kinds of things. So

1130
01:23:21,039 --> 01:23:25,840
you're saying that the reformers taught that
being hungry is the sin. They taught

1131
01:23:25,920 --> 01:23:29,199
that the desire. They don't make
the distinction. Is my point. If

1132
01:23:29,600 --> 01:23:33,760
concupiscence or the passions are sin and
make you liable to guilty to guilt,

1133
01:23:34,319 --> 01:23:40,960
then if Christ possesses the exact same
status as other infants via homo ussios.

1134
01:23:41,560 --> 01:23:44,880
Then how is Christ not a sinner? How is he not liable to what

1135
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:47,680
you're calling he has the same state
of being as the other infants. Well,

1136
01:23:47,720 --> 01:23:51,720
so Jesus himself said that, you
know, wanting to you, if

1137
01:23:51,760 --> 01:23:56,279
you desire to, like hurt your
brother and kill your brother, that's still

1138
01:23:56,359 --> 01:23:59,399
sin, just as if you actually
we're talking about infants. So I'm ascerning

1139
01:23:59,439 --> 01:24:00,960
about Jesus. If you look at
a woman lustfully, even if you don't

1140
01:24:00,960 --> 01:24:05,319
actually, do you think you think
infants? Okay, infants infance? Do

1141
01:24:05,319 --> 01:24:12,199
you think infants lust after women?
They don't do that particular thing though,

1142
01:24:13,399 --> 01:24:15,479
So we're talking about infants. We're
not talking about adults that consent to sin

1143
01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,920
with their with their This is just
this is just defending the point that desire

1144
01:24:19,039 --> 01:24:26,520
to sin is sin. It desires
and infant No. In the reformers,

1145
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:30,039
infants are liable because they have the
desires that Adam passed on to is the

1146
01:24:30,119 --> 01:24:35,359
sentence concupiscence. The passions are also
sin. You already admitted that's a Reformation

1147
01:24:35,479 --> 01:24:40,600
teaching. It's a Reformation teaching that
desired to sin is sin. It's not

1148
01:24:40,680 --> 01:24:44,920
that desire. No, it's the
Their argument is that concupiscence. What is

1149
01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:51,560
concupiscence in your view, concupiscence is
desired to sin, and infants possessed concupiscence,

1150
01:24:51,840 --> 01:24:57,560
and that's why they're guilty. I
didn't say that the fact that infants

1151
01:24:57,640 --> 01:25:01,600
possessed concupiscence. The reformers teach at
why they're guilty. That's the Reformation teaching.

1152
01:25:02,039 --> 01:25:06,199
That's guilty because they inherited adam sin. What does it mean to inherit

1153
01:25:06,239 --> 01:25:11,880
Adam sin? If not to inherit
the concupis sense, which makes them guilty.

1154
01:25:12,000 --> 01:25:15,479
That's the that Calvin makes this argument
in the Institutes when he rejects the

1155
01:25:15,680 --> 01:25:21,840
Roman Catholic distinction between original sin and
original guilt. Yes, and I'm sure

1156
01:25:21,840 --> 01:25:26,720
you've seen me rejecting the distinction between
original sin and original guilt many times here.

1157
01:25:27,000 --> 01:25:31,439
That's just making my point. Yeah, so original sin all in Adam

1158
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:38,039
all sinned. So that means even
before the even if a baby doesn't desire

1159
01:25:38,079 --> 01:25:40,560
any sin, even if the baby
does, even when it's like a single

1160
01:25:40,640 --> 01:25:44,479
cell of embryo in the womb,
that cell is not desiring anything, but

1161
01:25:44,600 --> 01:25:47,760
it's still guilty of sin. How
is it guilty of sin? If sin

1162
01:25:47,880 --> 01:25:53,239
is not a state of being,
it's guilty of Adam sin because in so,

1163
01:25:53,560 --> 01:25:57,960
now this was everything I argued twenty
minutes ago, that you collapse person

1164
01:25:58,039 --> 01:26:00,520
into nature. So now I'm guilty
for other people's actions because my nature is

1165
01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:09,199
condemned. Correctly, you're guilty for
other people's actions Adams, other people's actions.

1166
01:26:09,199 --> 01:26:13,000
It's not like Adam is some guy
who is like all of us are

1167
01:26:13,119 --> 01:26:15,279
united to Adam. All of us
may in some sense did make the decision

1168
01:26:15,319 --> 01:26:21,800
to sin in Adam. Again,
so now guilt and sinning is not personal,

1169
01:26:21,920 --> 01:26:27,840
it's natural. It's a state of
nature. Right, Well, there's

1170
01:26:27,960 --> 01:26:30,960
you could go into the question of
like, are do people have a personal

1171
01:26:30,119 --> 01:26:33,800
union with with Adam or is it
just a union of nature that Well,

1172
01:26:34,000 --> 01:26:39,159
you just argued that it was natural, So right, I mean for me

1173
01:26:39,239 --> 01:26:42,159
to be guilty of a sin,
it's my nature that is condemned and that

1174
01:26:42,279 --> 01:26:48,239
collapses person in the nature. So
so you're saying that, are you?

1175
01:26:48,359 --> 01:26:53,159
Are you saying that because like August
and the reformers collapsed person into nature.

1176
01:26:53,720 --> 01:26:59,439
That's why that's why they So you're
saying that the reformers believe all of us

1177
01:26:59,479 --> 01:27:01,359
are personally united to Adam because they
collapse person in nature. Yes, and

1178
01:27:01,439 --> 01:27:06,279
that's when Augustine does the extra Jesus
in Romans five, which he mistranslates what

1179
01:27:06,399 --> 01:27:10,680
it actually says in the Greek.
It does not say all sin and atom.

1180
01:27:11,039 --> 01:27:15,039
It says all are in Atom.
And that's what led to the effects

1181
01:27:15,079 --> 01:27:17,520
of Adam sin. And you can
readmind Orf has a really good exegesis of

1182
01:27:17,640 --> 01:27:23,000
that, and he rebuts the Augustinian
mistransit because Augustine was looking at the Latin

1183
01:27:24,199 --> 01:27:28,800
the Paul's letters written into the Greeks. It's written to the Romans in Greek,

1184
01:27:29,560 --> 01:27:31,239
and so mayandor if you look up
his exte Jesus of Romans five,

1185
01:27:31,319 --> 01:27:35,720
he points out how this led to
this misunderstanding in the West. That and

1186
01:27:35,840 --> 01:27:42,479
that's where Augustine brings in the neoplatonic
archetypal imagery to say that everybody is in

1187
01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:45,960
atom as in an archetype. He
uses this argumentation in City of God.

1188
01:27:46,600 --> 01:27:50,600
And then that's what leads to the
state of nature being itself a condemned and

1189
01:27:50,680 --> 01:27:56,840
damnable state. And that's what we're
saying, is that this is confusing sin

1190
01:27:57,159 --> 01:28:00,640
as a state of being with sin
as an action. Sin and guilt are

1191
01:28:00,720 --> 01:28:04,199
not states of being. Evil is
not a state of being. Sin is

1192
01:28:04,239 --> 01:28:08,880
specifically an action of the will,
and that's it. That's what James defines

1193
01:28:08,880 --> 01:28:12,439
it as. And so you can
never be guilty for something that you didn't

1194
01:28:12,520 --> 01:28:15,960
do. And so all of Calvinism
is actually predicated on one of these big

1195
01:28:15,079 --> 01:28:19,640
mistakes here. But I'd like to
move on if we can, to Christology,

1196
01:28:20,039 --> 01:28:25,640
because I'm saying, based on what
you're saying, I think Augustin was

1197
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:29,920
right. I think that all of
us did personally sin in Adam and single

1198
01:28:30,000 --> 01:28:31,640
seldom ryos are guilty of sin.
That's what I think. That's what Calvinism

1199
01:28:31,720 --> 01:28:34,920
teaches. I think you know that's
what Calvinism teaches, right right, And

1200
01:28:35,039 --> 01:28:38,880
so again that's making my point the
point that I've been making, so that

1201
01:28:39,039 --> 01:28:41,720
that was what I was trying to
make the point that thank you for it.

1202
01:28:42,199 --> 01:28:44,880
I guess to summarize my points,
like, I'll agree with a lot

1203
01:28:44,920 --> 01:28:47,760
of your premises, I just don't
necessarily agree that the logical conclusion of that

1204
01:28:47,960 --> 01:28:51,119
is the heresies that you attach that
That's all I was saying. But the

1205
01:28:53,199 --> 01:29:00,720
mono energism is the teaching in the
Classical Reformation tradition that the fine will has

1206
01:29:00,800 --> 01:29:03,720
to overcome the human will because there's
a natural antipathy to the human will to

1207
01:29:03,800 --> 01:29:10,279
the divine will. So Catholics hold
I mean, I would say Calvinist's hold

1208
01:29:10,319 --> 01:29:13,600
the councils in pfallible. You wouldn't
believe that Catholics hold the councils as infallible.

1209
01:29:13,840 --> 01:29:18,039
They believe that we believe that.
So if there's some like, how

1210
01:29:18,119 --> 01:29:25,000
do Catholics affirm both if they're contradictory, because the Augustinian position is a dialectical

1211
01:29:25,079 --> 01:29:30,000
mode of willing, where in Augustin's
view. That's why I mentioned lebido domenon

1212
01:29:30,119 --> 01:29:33,560
the earlier, because that's the Augustinian
position that the will is either directed towards

1213
01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:38,079
God in all of its thoughts and
actions, or its directed towards creatures.

1214
01:29:38,359 --> 01:29:41,640
So Augustin thought that if it's ever
directed towards creatures, that in some way

1215
01:29:41,680 --> 01:29:45,279
involves some degree of venial sin,
at least if not mortal sin. This

1216
01:29:45,399 --> 01:29:48,239
is why Augustine says that even in
married life, he doesn't understand how married

1217
01:29:48,319 --> 01:29:54,159
sex isn't still in some way sinful. He admits that it's a sacrament of

1218
01:29:54,199 --> 01:29:56,800
the church. But he says,
I can't understand how it's not sinful,

1219
01:29:56,840 --> 01:30:00,239
because if I'm enraptured with my wife, I'm willing towards and so therefore I'm

1220
01:30:00,279 --> 01:30:03,359
still in some way involved in some
degree of sin. So this is a

1221
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:08,359
dialectical mode of willing. You're either
willing towards God or towards creatures, and

1222
01:30:08,439 --> 01:30:13,159
creatures in some way involves sin.
The Reformers don't. The Reformers don't go

1223
01:30:13,239 --> 01:30:16,760
with They don't go with a lot
of this nuances that Augustina has because Augustine

1224
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:21,199
believes in operative grace and cooperative grace. He thinks that in conversion there's this

1225
01:30:21,359 --> 01:30:26,960
operative grace that basically effectually moves the
will, and then after that you have

1226
01:30:27,199 --> 01:30:30,119
cooperative grace. But he teaches baptismal
regeneration, so he's not I just don't

1227
01:30:30,119 --> 01:30:33,880
think he's consistent with these different positions
that he's trying to work through. The

1228
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:39,800
Eastern Church, the Orthodox Church never
accepted this idea that man's will has so

1229
01:30:39,960 --> 01:30:43,840
fallen and sold so damaged that he
has to have grace replacing his human will

1230
01:30:43,880 --> 01:30:47,439
and energy. And this becomes a
discussion at the Sixth Council when they're debating

1231
01:30:47,479 --> 01:30:53,760
Christology, because you understand that,
in our view in Orthodox theology, christology

1232
01:30:53,880 --> 01:30:59,159
and the anthropology that's formulated in terms
of Christology is one to one parallel with

1233
01:30:59,479 --> 01:31:03,760
anthropopyology in humans in seteriology. So
the theological positions that we have in Christology

1234
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:09,119
are going to determine our sateriology.
In reform theology, it's backwards. You

1235
01:31:09,239 --> 01:31:13,119
start with ceteriology and then down the
road you do Christology or you do your

1236
01:31:13,199 --> 01:31:15,760
turnititarian theology. For us, everything
begins with the person of the Father,

1237
01:31:15,920 --> 01:31:18,319
in the monarchia of the Father.
That's why we don't have things like Philly

1238
01:31:18,359 --> 01:31:24,760
Oakuay. But I'd like to ask
a question about Christology because the other big

1239
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,520
problem that I see with reform theology, and maybe you don't teach this,

1240
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:30,520
I don't know, but the classical
Reformation teaching, whether it's Calvin Luther,

1241
01:31:31,399 --> 01:31:35,680
Charles Hodge, John Murray, J. I Packard, Arci Sproll, they

1242
01:31:35,720 --> 01:31:42,479
all teach that Christ on the cross
was damned, and that damnation that he

1243
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:46,960
underwent in the hours of his crucifixion
and death, that that's the equivalence of

1244
01:31:47,600 --> 01:31:53,279
the experience of hell and damnation in
terms of what the human race was due.

1245
01:31:53,680 --> 01:31:58,319
And so the penal substitution argument in
them is that the penalty that was

1246
01:31:58,399 --> 01:32:00,960
due to us Christ paid, and
then Christ's payment then is the thing that's

1247
01:32:00,960 --> 01:32:04,119
put into our bank account, you
know, to give us the perfect rightchness

1248
01:32:04,199 --> 01:32:10,159
of Christ. Do you agree with
that idea that Jesus was damned on the

1249
01:32:10,199 --> 01:32:14,159
cross? So this is are you
just talking about double imputation, that our

1250
01:32:14,239 --> 01:32:15,920
sins were imputed to him and he
suffered all the penalty for our sins.

1251
01:32:16,479 --> 01:32:23,560
Well, not everybody who believes in
double imputation necessarily believes that Christ was damned

1252
01:32:23,600 --> 01:32:27,960
on the cross. There are some
modern reform theologians and Protestants who reject that

1253
01:32:28,079 --> 01:32:30,000
idea, but the classical reformers teach
it. So I'm just curious what your

1254
01:32:30,039 --> 01:32:34,359
take is on that. I haven't
really thought through that. Remember, I

1255
01:32:34,479 --> 01:32:38,960
am just a Minecraft YouTuber. I've
never gone to seminary or anything like that,

1256
01:32:39,800 --> 01:32:43,000
so I'll have to look more into
that. I don't know. It's

1257
01:32:43,079 --> 01:32:46,680
like I have heard the pastor's,
the reform pastors. I've heard they've spoken

1258
01:32:46,680 --> 01:32:50,640
about Jesus suffering God's condemnation on the
cross. I'm not sure what they mean

1259
01:32:50,760 --> 01:32:55,399
by that, is Jesus was damned
on the cross, or if they mean

1260
01:32:55,520 --> 01:32:59,319
that he just suffered the penalty for
our sins, took the weight of our

1261
01:32:59,359 --> 01:33:01,439
sins on a show there's which all
Christians universal. Well, if that's it,

1262
01:33:01,600 --> 01:33:03,760
I mean, even if you took
that route, like, what is

1263
01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:09,640
the penalty for our sins in your
view, the wages of sin is death,

1264
01:33:09,680 --> 01:33:13,479
we deserve damnation for ours sends.
Yeah, so if it's a double

1265
01:33:13,560 --> 01:33:18,199
imputation, I mean, was he
damned, well, I guess, well,

1266
01:33:18,439 --> 01:33:25,000
generally when Calvin interpreted he descended into
hell from the apostles creed as the

1267
01:33:25,159 --> 01:33:28,359
damnation Christ received on the on the
cross. You can say, so I

1268
01:33:28,399 --> 01:33:30,920
would say, I'm not gonna like
die on this hill, but I'll say,

1269
01:33:30,920 --> 01:33:33,520
sure, let's go with that,
and I'll be open to hearing your

1270
01:33:33,840 --> 01:33:39,800
criticisms of that view. Right.
Well, you know, all orthodox Trinitarian

1271
01:33:39,840 --> 01:33:44,119
theology from you know, Council's you
know, three four, five, six,

1272
01:33:44,479 --> 01:33:46,600
agree that you know, Christ is
a divine person. He's the second

1273
01:33:46,680 --> 01:33:50,880
person the Godhead, assuming human nature. And so if he's the second person

1274
01:33:50,920 --> 01:33:56,439
in the Godhead, it's absolutely impossible
that the Trinity could be split by one

1275
01:33:56,520 --> 01:34:00,680
person damning another person, or that
the you know, the think of all

1276
01:34:00,680 --> 01:34:02,079
the things that this would result in. Right to be damned is to be

1277
01:34:02,319 --> 01:34:05,560
excluded from the presence of God,
to have the active wrath of God against

1278
01:34:05,600 --> 01:34:09,279
you, and so forth. In
the Calvinist view, that would mean then

1279
01:34:09,359 --> 01:34:12,760
that as a divine hypostasis, now
the Trinity is split because Christ is no

1280
01:34:12,920 --> 01:34:15,399
longer the second person. He doesn't
share the same will as the Father and

1281
01:34:15,840 --> 01:34:20,000
the Spirit. Now the Spirit and
the Father have their will against him.

1282
01:34:20,520 --> 01:34:24,840
And now also the doctrine paracorisis of
the divine in dwelling would no longer be

1283
01:34:24,880 --> 01:34:27,640
the case. So now the Father
and the Spirit no longer in dwell the

1284
01:34:27,720 --> 01:34:30,760
Son because he's damned. So all
the things that would result from this idea

1285
01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:33,319
are so insane to me that this
alone, I think is one of the

1286
01:34:33,359 --> 01:34:40,119
strongest arguments against all the Reformation tradition
because it results in being anti trinitarian or

1287
01:34:40,239 --> 01:34:43,119
arian. The other option is that
you could say, well, I'll just

1288
01:34:43,199 --> 01:34:46,640
say that there's a human subject that
is the receiver of the damnation, Jesus

1289
01:34:46,720 --> 01:34:50,359
of Nazareth, this sort of historical
person that's damned in our place. It's

1290
01:34:50,399 --> 01:34:55,920
a human being being damned in our
place, and that then preserves the You

1291
01:34:56,000 --> 01:34:59,680
know, I'm not falling to the
anti trinitarian dilemma. But the problem with

1292
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:02,159
this is that that's a Nestorian.
So now you've adopted a human subject that

1293
01:35:02,319 --> 01:35:06,319
is the receiver of this damnation.
And also, by the way, God

1294
01:35:06,520 --> 01:35:10,960
doesn't need anything from us. So
how does the damning of a human being

1295
01:35:11,600 --> 01:35:15,479
or a human person pay off an
infinite debt, especially if God doesn't need

1296
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:21,960
creatures? Right? So these reformed
theologians you've heard that say Jesus was damned

1297
01:35:23,039 --> 01:35:26,359
on the cross, what position would
they take? Would they argue that there

1298
01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:28,760
was a rupture in the trinity or
would they what would they say? No?

1299
01:35:28,840 --> 01:35:31,680
I think they just simply didn't see
this. I think that maybe more

1300
01:35:31,800 --> 01:35:36,800
recent Protestant scholars and people have seen
this and then they want to move away

1301
01:35:36,840 --> 01:35:43,119
from that. But this really begins
to undo the whole of imputational theology,

1302
01:35:43,159 --> 01:35:47,439
because imputational theology is built on that
equivalence. Right, So you're saying that

1303
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:53,840
it doesn't cause trinitarian problems for God
the Son to suffer on the cross,

1304
01:35:54,520 --> 01:35:58,359
but it does cause trinitarian problems for
there to be some sort of damnation of

1305
01:35:58,439 --> 01:36:01,479
God the Son on the cross right. And it shows that the punishment or

1306
01:36:01,520 --> 01:36:04,560
the penalty which the Orthodox Church has
said for the I mean, the first

1307
01:36:04,600 --> 01:36:09,720
seventh century of the Church are summarized
in John Damascus Rebook three on the Orthodox

1308
01:36:09,760 --> 01:36:14,399
Faith. He talks about we already
knew, the Church already universally understood what

1309
01:36:14,520 --> 01:36:16,680
the descent into Hades was. Nobody
in the early Church believed that it was

1310
01:36:16,760 --> 01:36:20,359
Christ being damned. It was Christ
literally descending into Hades. And that's why

1311
01:36:20,399 --> 01:36:24,680
Peter says that he preached to the
spirits in prison. So Peter teaches the

1312
01:36:24,720 --> 01:36:28,479
descent into Hades. The Church always
taught the descent into Hades, and that's

1313
01:36:28,560 --> 01:36:31,680
why it's not a damn nation.
It's Christ going and preaching the Gospel to

1314
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:35,159
the spirits in Hades. This is
called the Heroin of Hades and Orthodox theology,

1315
01:36:35,479 --> 01:36:40,239
it's basically a doctrine that's completely lost
in the West, whether it's the

1316
01:36:40,319 --> 01:36:44,399
Reform tradition or even the Roman Catholic
tradition, which still confesses it but has

1317
01:36:44,560 --> 01:36:47,880
basically no significance in its theology.
For us, it's central to redemption that

1318
01:36:47,960 --> 01:36:54,199
Christ descended into Hades and preached the
Gospel to the dead. Point being then

1319
01:36:54,319 --> 01:36:59,000
that the solution then for the Orthodox
is that Christ is a divine person,

1320
01:36:59,439 --> 01:37:02,239
He's a second person of the Godhead. All of his incarnate actions are the

1321
01:37:02,279 --> 01:37:05,520
actions of the second person, the
Godhead. So there's never a human subject

1322
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:10,560
in Christ. That's Nestorianism. And
so what happened at the Cross is Johnamscus

1323
01:37:10,560 --> 01:37:13,720
says in book three, is that
the human soul is severed from the human

1324
01:37:13,800 --> 01:37:18,119
body death. So the divine person
of the Logos experiences the severance of the

1325
01:37:18,199 --> 01:37:23,279
human soul from the human body.
That's death, and that's it. That's

1326
01:37:23,359 --> 01:37:26,840
and then he descends as the divine
person to that soul to Haites to preach

1327
01:37:26,880 --> 01:37:31,000
the Gospel to the dead. Totally
different than the Reformation idea of this transactional

1328
01:37:31,239 --> 01:37:36,479
event. Yeah, so the transaction, like you agree that it's not it

1329
01:37:36,560 --> 01:37:41,079
doesn't cause trinitarian problems for God.
The Son to suffer just can't be like

1330
01:37:41,159 --> 01:37:44,359
the condemnation of God and Father,
right, Well, it can't be him

1331
01:37:44,439 --> 01:37:48,960
being condemned by any member of the
Trinity. So it just simply depends on

1332
01:37:49,039 --> 01:37:53,960
what we mean by condemnation. And
punishment, right. I mean, when

1333
01:37:54,039 --> 01:37:58,359
John Damascus exodues the passages for example
of him becoming a curse, he says,

1334
01:37:58,399 --> 01:38:00,039
that's by appropriation. In other words, it's as if he were one

1335
01:38:00,119 --> 01:38:04,439
cursed. But Christ could not be
cursed because his Holy body never suffered decay

1336
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:10,000
or corruption. So he wasn't actually
cursed, he wasn't actually damned. He

1337
01:38:10,159 --> 01:38:14,399
willingly underwent death. And that's why
it's the later Council specified that you have

1338
01:38:14,520 --> 01:38:17,760
to say that he willingly underwent death, not that it was taken of him

1339
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:21,319
of necessity. He willed it.
Because he's got he's the second person in

1340
01:38:21,319 --> 01:38:25,760
the audio. You would definitely agree
that this is not cosmic child ab use

1341
01:38:25,840 --> 01:38:30,039
like in some Baptist systematic theologies.
We agree that Jesus willingly went to the

1342
01:38:30,119 --> 01:38:35,039
cross and all that. That's one
hundred percent. I guess what some Calvinists

1343
01:38:35,159 --> 01:38:40,039
might say in defense. Again,
I have not this is the first time

1344
01:38:40,079 --> 01:38:44,560
I've heard specifically that they teach Gees
was damned on the cross. I guess

1345
01:38:44,600 --> 01:38:48,199
what they would say is he suffered
the penalty equivalent to damnation without actually being

1346
01:38:48,279 --> 01:38:51,399
condemned by the Father of the Holy
Spirit. Well, even if you say

1347
01:38:51,399 --> 01:38:55,239
as an equivalent, it's still right. I mean, they will to execute

1348
01:38:55,279 --> 01:38:57,960
the passages that my God, my
God, why be forsaken me? As

1349
01:38:58,000 --> 01:39:00,720
if the Father is forsaking the son. Well, that's just quoting a psalm.

1350
01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:04,239
That's not necessary. I said,
they actualitute the passage to mean that

1351
01:39:04,520 --> 01:39:10,359
he is in some sense rejected by
the Father. Well, it's it's sort

1352
01:39:10,399 --> 01:39:14,079
of like like you said with johnathanamask
is, like in some sense, it's

1353
01:39:14,119 --> 01:39:16,920
as if he were rejected without him
actually being rejected. The Bible uses a

1354
01:39:17,560 --> 01:39:21,520
language for things about God that we
know actually the way it happens, just

1355
01:39:21,560 --> 01:39:27,279
like it says God regretted making humanity. Okay, but right, and I

1356
01:39:27,399 --> 01:39:31,600
grant you that. But it's as
if Jesus was forsaken by the Father,

1357
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:34,039
even if there wasn't actually some story. Okay, Well, then it's not

1358
01:39:34,119 --> 01:39:36,520
an equivalent. Right. So then
if that's the case, there is only

1359
01:39:36,560 --> 01:39:39,840
one will in the trinity, all
right. If that's the case, then

1360
01:39:39,880 --> 01:39:43,720
it's it's not the equivalence of the
imputation. Then that would undo the imputation

1361
01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:51,000
view. So Jesus can suffer for
the sins of his people without actually being

1362
01:39:51,199 --> 01:39:56,760
condemned by the Father because he suffered. Now the whole model, the thing

1363
01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:00,159
as a result of being condemned,
the whole model is different because Christ isn't

1364
01:40:00,279 --> 01:40:04,920
doing this to placate the Father's wrath. Christ says the second person in Godhead

1365
01:40:05,000 --> 01:40:09,720
is assuming human nature to heal it
and to deify it. So it's not

1366
01:40:10,000 --> 01:40:14,119
that one person the Trinity is paying
off another person the Trinity, because that's

1367
01:40:14,159 --> 01:40:17,560
also an anti trinitarian right, So
the traditional Reformation doctrine isn't just erroneous when

1368
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:23,039
it comes to the damnation of the
person or the hypostasis, it's also anti

1369
01:40:23,079 --> 01:40:26,880
trinitarian because the payment between the Father
and the Son subordinates the Holy Spirit.

1370
01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:30,439
You can't have an action in the
Trinity that excludes one of the persons.

1371
01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:35,359
I know the Protestant systematic theology fully
agrees with that. There is the doctrine

1372
01:40:35,399 --> 01:40:41,239
of in several inseverable operations, which
is explicitly taught in like the Lutheran and

1373
01:40:41,279 --> 01:40:44,800
reforms. Okay, So if there's
a payment being made to God the Father,

1374
01:40:45,600 --> 01:40:47,960
then where's the Holy Spirit in this
transaction that the Son is paying the

1375
01:40:48,039 --> 01:40:53,600
Father of the infinite debt? So
where are you getting this specific idea that

1376
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:56,760
the sun paid. Again, we're
in the confessions, because you'll find some

1377
01:40:56,960 --> 01:41:00,399
reformers like speculating on things, just
the way you'll find church mother'spect relating on

1378
01:41:00,520 --> 01:41:03,319
things. Is there a place in
the confessions where it says the son paid

1379
01:41:03,560 --> 01:41:12,319
the Father and the Holy Spirit was
not doing anything. My tradition was Westminster

1380
01:41:12,399 --> 01:41:16,680
Confession. I don't know if the
Westminster Confession explicitly argues that the sun was

1381
01:41:16,800 --> 01:41:21,000
damned. I haven't read that.
Like a lot of times, you'll you

1382
01:41:21,079 --> 01:41:27,000
can find examples of people in the
Protestant tradition saying certain things. You'll be

1383
01:41:27,079 --> 01:41:29,039
like, oh, this is okay, but well, hold on, this

1384
01:41:29,079 --> 01:41:33,199
is not this is not just this
is like the classical reformers extrady the passages

1385
01:41:33,239 --> 01:41:36,399
this way, so and by the
way. I mean, it's fine,

1386
01:41:36,479 --> 01:41:41,000
okay. So even if it's not
in the you know, Westminster Confession,

1387
01:41:41,119 --> 01:41:44,760
I mean, the Westminster Confession is
not binding. So I mean I could,

1388
01:41:44,800 --> 01:41:46,520
if I'm a Protestant, I could
just simply say the Westminster Confession's wrong.

1389
01:41:46,640 --> 01:41:51,119
Right, yeah, I guess.
But I'm saying, like, I'm

1390
01:41:51,159 --> 01:41:57,000
not sure exactly where you're where You're
getting this, Well, I do do

1391
01:41:57,000 --> 01:42:00,119
you wanna do you wanna flora jelling
of quotes? I mean, I have

1392
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:04,279
my friend when I was Roaman Calvin
many years ago, we wrote a pass.

1393
01:42:04,760 --> 01:42:09,239
He took all these quotes from me. But if you want the I

1394
01:42:09,279 --> 01:42:14,239
can give you the list of all
the statements about Jesus being damned in classical

1395
01:42:14,279 --> 01:42:16,199
Reformation teaching. I believe you that
there's a lot of people who say that

1396
01:42:17,600 --> 01:42:21,680
the confessions say like, this is
what we're certain about. It's sort of

1397
01:42:21,760 --> 01:42:26,880
like the refined version of the doctrine
because you'll have people exituting things of other

1398
01:42:26,920 --> 01:42:30,560
people writing things right and left.
But that doesn't mean that becomes actual dogma.

1399
01:42:30,760 --> 01:42:33,880
It becomes dogall. But hold on, well wait a minute, but

1400
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:39,600
how do you actually have dogma anyway? I mean dogma that's going to take

1401
01:42:39,680 --> 01:42:42,439
us back to the whole. Like
earlier, debates can be another three hours.

1402
01:42:42,560 --> 01:42:45,960
So I would just I would just
recommend you know, there's a really

1403
01:42:45,000 --> 01:42:49,079
good book on this by John mcguckan. I don't affirm everything that John McGuckin

1404
01:42:49,119 --> 01:42:51,960
teaches, but if you get his
book saying Cyril of Alexander and the Christological

1405
01:42:53,039 --> 01:42:59,439
Controversy, I think that's one of
the strongest reputations of Calvinistic theology in terms

1406
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,000
of crystalogy. And I think if
if Christology fails, you know, then

1407
01:43:02,039 --> 01:43:08,680
basically the rest of it fails.
So of course, now you said offhand

1408
01:43:08,760 --> 01:43:15,199
earlier that reform theology starts with soteriology
and then goes to Christology. So this

1409
01:43:15,399 --> 01:43:20,119
is something I have encountered a lot
with a lot of Calvinists, mainly Reformed

1410
01:43:20,199 --> 01:43:25,079
Baptist by the way, And there's
another example of reform Baptist theology affecting even

1411
01:43:25,119 --> 01:43:29,439
mainstream reform theology. For a lot
of them, they say fundamental you need

1412
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:32,319
to be exactly right about you need
to be exactly right about how salvation works.

1413
01:43:32,319 --> 01:43:34,720
You need to be exactly right about
Twolip and the five souls and all

1414
01:43:34,800 --> 01:43:39,560
that stuff. But if you're a
Nestorian, heretic the way John MacArthur is,

1415
01:43:40,760 --> 01:43:43,159
I'm sure we can agree. John
MacArthur is an historian, right.

1416
01:43:44,039 --> 01:43:46,680
I don't keep up with John MacArthur, but I have absolutely no surprise if

1417
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:50,479
he is. I think most I
think most I think most I think most

1418
01:43:51,560 --> 01:43:54,840
most Calvinists are an historian. So
I don't have any problem with that.

1419
01:43:55,840 --> 01:43:58,720
I mean, well, we we
can we condemn what he said as an

1420
01:43:58,760 --> 01:44:02,239
astorianism. He said it's heretical to
call the blood of Jesus Christ the blood

1421
01:44:02,239 --> 01:44:05,000
of God. And he also said
Mary did not give birth to God.

1422
01:44:05,159 --> 01:44:09,760
That's a historian, right, Those
are historian statements. But I think that

1423
01:44:09,880 --> 01:44:14,239
you can find historianism in many like
Herman Ritter Boss. You can find historianism

1424
01:44:14,319 --> 01:44:17,520
in a lot of reform theologians.
I'll admit that even like Charles Hodge and

1425
01:44:17,640 --> 01:44:20,720
R. C. Sproul can be
a little little Nestorian here and there,

1426
01:44:20,760 --> 01:44:28,439
maybe not full blown, but because
they would affirm calcidon but it's it's not

1427
01:44:28,600 --> 01:44:30,159
ideal. But okay, But can
I can I make Can I make one

1428
01:44:30,279 --> 01:44:35,920
point here is that there's a lot
of problems in some reform circles of putting

1429
01:44:35,960 --> 01:44:44,920
sociology before you know christology. But
I've spent basically my entire presence as a

1430
01:44:45,680 --> 01:44:47,960
Calvinist, you know YouTuber, basically
trying to argue against that, trying to

1431
01:44:48,000 --> 01:44:51,760
say that, you know, sola
fide is not the most important doctrine.

1432
01:44:51,760 --> 01:44:56,880
I've tried to say that the five
points of Calvinism are really tertiary, maybe

1433
01:44:57,000 --> 01:45:00,640
maybe tertiary doctrines. I tried to
say Christology is cent. So I agree

1434
01:45:00,880 --> 01:45:06,079
one hundred trinitarian theology. Christology,
that's what's absolutely essential, and sociology is

1435
01:45:06,119 --> 01:45:10,119
secondary. We can agree on that, right, right. And Trinitarian theology

1436
01:45:10,239 --> 01:45:14,960
then will mean that you're accepting Constantinople
one in three eighty one. That is

1437
01:45:15,159 --> 01:45:17,800
the orthodox view of the Kappadocians,
which is premised on the monarchia of the

1438
01:45:17,880 --> 01:45:24,079
Father. No filioquay as a syenter
distinction. Okay, so you said,

1439
01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:29,920
you said you have a problem with
Calvinist Christology. So what's specifically what's specifically

1440
01:45:29,920 --> 01:45:34,600
wrong with Calvinist Christology. There are
Calvinist Trinitarian theology things that are distinct from

1441
01:45:35,119 --> 01:45:39,800
eat both Catholicism and n Orthodoxy.
There's the Autotheos, which I believe in.

1442
01:45:40,680 --> 01:45:45,239
But okay, so that's what about
so distinct about Calvinist Christology that you

1443
01:45:45,359 --> 01:45:47,279
think is well, I mean,
that's that's heretical right there. I mean

1444
01:45:47,319 --> 01:45:51,920
the nice in Creed, the original
Nicene Creed explicitly affirms that the Father is

1445
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:59,720
identified as being autotheos of himself.
So to give to the son autotheos is

1446
01:45:59,800 --> 01:46:03,640
to confuse the persons of their hyposthetic
properties and to create a diet just as

1447
01:46:03,720 --> 01:46:12,520
much as the philioquid does. Thank
you. So I'll get to that in

1448
01:46:12,520 --> 01:46:15,079
a second, because that is actually
something I've spent a lot of time thinking

1449
01:46:15,119 --> 01:46:17,439
about. Unlike the whole Jesus being
done with the cross. I'd never heard

1450
01:46:17,439 --> 01:46:23,000
of that. But what about the
look the two natures or the just general

1451
01:46:23,199 --> 01:46:28,520
Christology. It's like Calvinists subscribe to
Calcedonian Christology. Yeah, but this is

1452
01:46:28,560 --> 01:46:30,319
a huge miss under right. There
is a huge mess misunderstanding that I had,

1453
01:46:30,359 --> 01:46:34,239
even as a Roman Catholic that the
end of the discussion is not Calceldon.

1454
01:46:34,800 --> 01:46:40,000
The Fifth and sixth Councils are just
as important to Christological disputes because after

1455
01:46:40,119 --> 01:46:45,039
Calclodon there was a remaining question left
which the Monopsides continued to explicate, which

1456
01:46:45,159 --> 01:46:48,039
is what does it mean to be
in a hypostatic union? And the fifth

1457
01:46:48,439 --> 01:46:53,439
the fifth Council meets to reaffirm what
they call the neo Karellian view. The

1458
01:46:53,520 --> 01:46:58,960
neo Karellian view excludes the Antiochian view
or any kind of tertium quid type of

1459
01:46:59,039 --> 01:47:03,680
view because of the tendencies of those
views towards both monopetism or towards a kind

1460
01:47:03,680 --> 01:47:08,000
of Nestorianism. So you have to
affirm that the second person that God had

1461
01:47:08,039 --> 01:47:13,159
assumed impersonal human nature, and then
by virtue of that assumption, he deifies

1462
01:47:13,199 --> 01:47:15,880
it. So if you don't believe
in the dedification of the human nature,

1463
01:47:15,920 --> 01:47:17,920
which I mean maybe there's Calvinists that
believe this, I've never heard of Calvinists

1464
01:47:17,920 --> 01:47:21,000
believing in dedification. The other problem
that I would say with this is that

1465
01:47:21,239 --> 01:47:26,479
in Calvinism the grace that you're getting
is still a created grace because you don't

1466
01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:29,560
have the essen centrity distinction. And
the only way to have uncreated grace,

1467
01:47:29,760 --> 01:47:32,079
which the only way to have the
Gospel, is to have the essenceentrit distinction.

1468
01:47:33,279 --> 01:47:39,600
So Calvinists juffer of the fifth and
sixth Councils. We reject monopil Again,

1469
01:47:39,720 --> 01:47:43,000
No, you don't. I know
you thought we don't believe in So

1470
01:47:44,000 --> 01:47:45,800
I'm not trying to be mean.
I'm not trying to be mean. Hold

1471
01:47:45,800 --> 01:47:46,319
on, so I'm not trying to
be mean to you. I know that

1472
01:47:46,359 --> 01:47:49,479
you give verbal credence to it,
but you don't understand it. And I'm

1473
01:47:49,479 --> 01:47:54,000
not trying to be a douchebag or
mean, but I'm saying that Calvinists do

1474
01:47:54,119 --> 01:47:57,880
not, actually, because the Fifth
Council teaches the deification and the Sixth Council

1475
01:47:58,319 --> 01:48:02,800
the deification of the human nature that
he assumed, and that means that there

1476
01:48:02,960 --> 01:48:08,880
is a Calvinist teaching on theaosis.
We don't call it that, We call

1477
01:48:08,920 --> 01:48:13,000
it union with Christ because we do
have a stronger creation interstinction than the Orthodoxy.

1478
01:48:13,279 --> 01:48:15,600
But that does that does exist.
Michael Horton, for example, it

1479
01:48:15,640 --> 01:48:17,920
is done a great job recovering it. Michael Horton does argue for an essence

1480
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:21,880
entergy distinction in his systematic theology.
It's not the same as the Orthodox version.

1481
01:48:21,880 --> 01:48:27,199
We still believe in divine simplicity.
But there is a sense in which

1482
01:48:27,279 --> 01:48:31,840
Calvinists do believe that we reject.
We reject monotheltism as heresy. I'm sure

1483
01:48:31,840 --> 01:48:34,720
you've heard of Wayne Groom, right, Yeah, yeah, I was.

1484
01:48:34,880 --> 01:48:42,319
I was reading that's the monotheltis heresy. We reject that. Say that again,

1485
01:48:44,159 --> 01:48:46,800
you know about like some you know, Reformed Baptists are subordinationists. They

1486
01:48:46,840 --> 01:48:53,079
believe that the son eternally is subordinate
to the Father. Well, that's the

1487
01:48:53,159 --> 01:48:57,439
Cappa Docian view. Things can be
things can be subordinate in different ways.

1488
01:48:59,279 --> 01:49:03,520
Yeah, actually, now that you
mentioned it, yes, Orthodoxy does subordinationism

1489
01:49:03,560 --> 01:49:09,039
in many ways. But yeah,
but but you understand Chatianism on the grounds.

1490
01:49:09,239 --> 01:49:13,319
I'm sure you would reject this type
of subordinationism though, because they say

1491
01:49:13,399 --> 01:49:18,520
that the son's will, the son's
will is eternally subordinate to the father's will.

1492
01:49:18,640 --> 01:49:23,279
There's no such thing as a son's
will. That's a heresy exactly exactly

1493
01:49:23,680 --> 01:49:27,279
what these people like, even Doug
Wilson, Doug Wilson wing Grudom. They

1494
01:49:27,359 --> 01:49:30,279
think will comes with person and not
with nature. That's correct, right,

1495
01:49:30,359 --> 01:49:33,279
that's that's say, that's the heresy. We believe that Jesus has two wills

1496
01:49:33,319 --> 01:49:36,319
because will comes with nature and not
with Okay, but that's not all there

1497
01:49:36,399 --> 01:49:40,479
is to this discussion. And the
fact that Michael Horton talks about that he

1498
01:49:40,560 --> 01:49:44,479
wants an essence inenter distinction, he's
just taking that from Orthodox theology. Well,

1499
01:49:44,520 --> 01:49:47,319
no, he does. He does
not just invented a finary quotes the

1500
01:49:47,680 --> 01:49:54,159
perform to the scholastics on it.
The reform scholastics do not. How do

1501
01:49:54,239 --> 01:49:59,840
they teach that you are participating in
uncreated grace? So they don't use this

1502
01:50:00,039 --> 01:50:03,920
same language as Orthodoxy, but there
is union with Union with Christ is sort

1503
01:50:03,960 --> 01:50:08,079
of like the Calvinist version of theosis. It's not exactly the same, but

1504
01:50:08,199 --> 01:50:11,680
he has a lot of the same
idea as just sort of nuanced and corrected

1505
01:50:11,800 --> 01:50:17,479
by having a greater creator creature distinction. And again, like the if the

1506
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:21,960
essence interdistinction, by the way,
is argued from Paul right. Paul uses

1507
01:50:21,960 --> 01:50:27,079
this distinction quite often in his epistles
where he talks about the divine power or

1508
01:50:27,159 --> 01:50:30,760
dounamus at work in him in Philippians, for example, in First Corinthians,

1509
01:50:30,800 --> 01:50:33,439
when he talks about the gifts of
the Spirit, he says that they are

1510
01:50:33,479 --> 01:50:36,840
the inner gaya, the operations of
the Holy Spirit, that are the gifts

1511
01:50:36,840 --> 01:50:41,479
that we partake of when we participate
in. So I'm curious though, because,

1512
01:50:41,680 --> 01:50:45,159
like in John seventeen, you know, Jesus says that he came to

1513
01:50:45,199 --> 01:50:48,199
give the disciples of participation in the
glory that he had with the Father before

1514
01:50:48,239 --> 01:50:51,239
the foundation of the world. And
that glory, by the way, can't

1515
01:50:51,239 --> 01:50:56,159
be the divine essence because we all
agree that the divine essence is non participable,

1516
01:50:56,239 --> 01:50:59,640
right, you can't participate in the
divine essence. So in your view,

1517
01:51:00,079 --> 01:51:02,720
what is it in John seventeen that
what is that glory that we're participating

1518
01:51:02,760 --> 01:51:10,560
in? We are through our union
with Christ. It's without Christ, without

1519
01:51:10,600 --> 01:51:14,880
the hypostatic union. Now this is
not necessarily reformed. This is more neo

1520
01:51:15,000 --> 01:51:19,720
orthodox on my part. Ordinarily,
it's impossible for the human, for the

1521
01:51:20,479 --> 01:51:24,600
human and divine to be reconciled.
It's impossible for the finite and the infinite

1522
01:51:24,640 --> 01:51:29,319
to be reconciled. Why Why because
of the creator of creature's station. Because

1523
01:51:29,399 --> 01:51:32,279
hold on so right there that that
just is the essence of Calvinism, right

1524
01:51:32,319 --> 01:51:38,359
there is dialectics of opposition. You
have the not capable of the infinite yet

1525
01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:44,520
exactly no, But that's that's heretical. Now, it's not because God created

1526
01:51:44,560 --> 01:51:48,840
the world and there's no opposition between
God and world. He pronounced it good.

1527
01:51:49,520 --> 01:51:54,399
You said that it's impossible without the
incarnation for the infinite and the find

1528
01:51:54,479 --> 01:51:58,319
it to be reconciled. There's no
tension or need for it to be reconciled

1529
01:51:58,359 --> 01:52:00,920
because God created it. Why does
it need to be reconcile So I just

1530
01:52:01,000 --> 01:52:06,680
want to disclaim here I am sort
of going astray from what might be classical

1531
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:11,920
reform theology. I'm not saying I'm
contradicting any of the confessions or anything,

1532
01:52:11,960 --> 01:52:15,800
but this is more of a neo
orthodox take. So I'm not speaking on

1533
01:52:15,960 --> 01:52:17,079
behalf full Calvinist. Right. Well, I don't even know what what do

1534
01:52:17,119 --> 01:52:21,840
you mean get Bart? What's neo
orthodox? Bart is a figure associated with

1535
01:52:21,920 --> 01:52:28,960
neo Orthodoxy. But neo Orthodoxy is
just sort of like modern modern but non.

1536
01:52:29,079 --> 01:52:31,439
It's a modern but non. It's
like the anti liberal. Why wouldn't

1537
01:52:31,439 --> 01:52:34,199
you want to go to the Cappadocians
and the people that define the doctrin of

1538
01:52:34,199 --> 01:52:36,319
the Trinity? Why would you want
to go to Bart and all these these

1539
01:52:36,560 --> 01:52:40,800
characters. I just don't understand the
motivation of Bart to define the doctrine of

1540
01:52:40,840 --> 01:52:44,399
the Trinity. No, I'm saying, why wouldn't you get your trinitarian doctrine

1541
01:52:44,399 --> 01:52:48,520
from the Cappadocians. We get our
trinitarian doctrine in many ways, we inherit

1542
01:52:48,600 --> 01:52:54,119
it from the Church fathers, maybe
more so Augustine than some of those capititions.

1543
01:52:54,159 --> 01:52:56,880
But what so you don't believe in
synods, then so you pick and

1544
01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:59,880
choose which guy you want to follow, because cossid of on one didn't accept

1545
01:52:59,920 --> 01:53:02,760
the Augustinian view of the trinity.
So anyway, what I was saying is

1546
01:53:02,840 --> 01:53:09,800
that the you agree that the fundamental
idea of Calvinism is the extra Calvinists to

1547
01:53:09,840 --> 01:53:14,479
come right? Is what the ex
Calvinist you're cutting out. I can't hear

1548
01:53:14,520 --> 01:53:16,560
you, sorry, the extra Calvinistic
comb Do you know what that is?

1549
01:53:17,840 --> 01:53:23,680
The extra Calvinist to comb is the
Calvinist doctrine that the finite is not capable

1550
01:53:23,720 --> 01:53:26,720
of the infinite. And that's what
different makes us different from Lutherans. That's

1551
01:53:27,079 --> 01:53:29,319
why Luther, what does that mean? Not? I don't even know what

1552
01:53:29,399 --> 01:53:32,079
that means? Not capable? What
does that mean? That means the finite?

1553
01:53:32,600 --> 01:53:36,880
Well, what it meant in its
original context is that the human nature

1554
01:53:36,920 --> 01:53:45,359
cannot take on divine attributes. Okay, the human nature cannot take on divine

1555
01:53:45,359 --> 01:53:48,039
attributes. And that was originally in
a debate between Luther and Calvin on the

1556
01:53:48,399 --> 01:53:54,039
really Lutheranswingley, but Zwingley was not. I'm aware that this is how Luther

1557
01:53:54,199 --> 01:53:57,560
argus. This is how Luther argues
for this is how Luther argus Luther in

1558
01:53:57,600 --> 01:54:00,279
Calvinism on the Lord's Supper. Yeah, I know this. This is how

1559
01:54:00,359 --> 01:54:03,600
Luther argues for his real presence,
is that the body of Christ takes on

1560
01:54:03,760 --> 01:54:08,520
things like on the presence, Yeah, the body. He thinks that Christ's

1561
01:54:08,600 --> 01:54:13,039
human nature can take on omnipresence.
Calvinism rejects that. Calvinism does not believe

1562
01:54:13,279 --> 01:54:15,399
the human nature of Christ can be
omnipresent. We still believe by the operations

1563
01:54:15,439 --> 01:54:19,039
of the Holy Spirit we can receive
the true human and divine natures of Christ

1564
01:54:19,119 --> 01:54:23,560
in the Lord's suffer, but we
just don't believe the human nature itself and

1565
01:54:23,600 --> 01:54:29,399
the omnipresent. But the accusation the
Lutherans made against the Calvinists for saying that

1566
01:54:29,760 --> 01:54:32,800
was you're denying the incarnation if you're
saying the finite is not capable of the

1567
01:54:32,840 --> 01:54:36,479
infinite. And the Calvinists responded by
saying, no, actually, we're saying

1568
01:54:36,560 --> 01:54:43,399
that the incarnate. The reason the
incarnation is necessary is because the finite is

1569
01:54:43,439 --> 01:54:46,640
not capable of the infinite, because
there's this gap between the finite and the

1570
01:54:46,720 --> 01:54:51,039
infinite that can only be bridged by
the incarnation. Yeah, I don't have

1571
01:54:51,119 --> 01:54:56,119
a problem. I mean, that's
kind of similar to Maximus's argumentation that the

1572
01:54:56,640 --> 01:55:02,520
logos performs the function of making the
infinite accessible to the finite. You know,

1573
01:55:02,600 --> 01:55:08,039
he argues that, right, but
I mean, this doesn't None of

1574
01:55:08,119 --> 01:55:14,960
this equates though, with the idea
that the Reform tradition has a doctrine of

1575
01:55:15,319 --> 01:55:18,720
participation in uncreated energies. Because,
for example, if you look at the

1576
01:55:18,800 --> 01:55:26,399
way that the Fourth Ecumenical Council,
or even Athenacious like so, if you

1577
01:55:26,439 --> 01:55:32,279
read Fulorofsky's essay on creation and Athanacious, he'll point out that the creator creature

1578
01:55:32,319 --> 01:55:38,600
distinction is necessitated by also the Essen
synergy distinction. So you have to distinguish

1579
01:55:38,680 --> 01:55:43,239
between the action of the Father generating
the son and the action of God creating

1580
01:55:43,279 --> 01:55:46,039
the world. So there's different types
of acts in God or that God does,

1581
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:49,119
so that requires the Essen sentery distinction. I know that you're saying that

1582
01:55:49,239 --> 01:55:53,279
maybe you know, you are okay
with some of these elements, but the

1583
01:55:53,359 --> 01:55:57,600
essenceentrity distinction is not a theoretical thing
that just sort of like exists on its

1584
01:55:57,640 --> 01:56:00,680
own. If you look at the
debate between Barley and Syngraria Palomas, the

1585
01:56:00,760 --> 01:56:05,159
essence centergy distinction ultimately becomes a question
of participation and what we're participating in so

1586
01:56:05,479 --> 01:56:09,920
I appreciate, and I was also
a Calvinist, very interested in the union

1587
01:56:10,000 --> 01:56:14,840
with Christ, unaware that that's in
Reform theology, it's in Westminster Confession all

1588
01:56:14,920 --> 01:56:17,720
that, but it's not actually addressing
the specific question of what is it or

1589
01:56:17,760 --> 01:56:23,119
in what way were united? Because
if you don't have the uncreated energies,

1590
01:56:23,560 --> 01:56:27,439
then you don't really have salvation because
we can't meld with the person of the

1591
01:56:27,479 --> 01:56:30,319
Holy Spirit. So what exactly is
the grace that we're partaking of In the

1592
01:56:30,359 --> 01:56:36,560
reform tradition. Classically, you have
Christ meriting a created state right, so

1593
01:56:36,640 --> 01:56:42,680
when he fulfills the divine law the
Covenant works, he's merited this created status

1594
01:56:42,800 --> 01:56:46,079
that's then imputed to our bank accounts. But that's not what Jesus said in

1595
01:56:46,119 --> 01:56:50,000
John seventeen and about participating in uncreated
glory. So if we agree that we

1596
01:56:50,039 --> 01:56:56,880
don't participate in the essence of God, and we agree that the uncreated glory

1597
01:56:57,079 --> 01:57:00,920
is then therefore an energy that's distinct
from the essence of God, then you

1598
01:57:00,039 --> 01:57:04,399
can't have the model that you said
earlier, that you affirmed the classical Western

1599
01:57:04,479 --> 01:57:10,479
doctrine of divine simplicity in the Philioquey
and Autotheos I mean Autotheus is in Calvin

1600
01:57:10,520 --> 01:57:15,960
would be a result of this absolute
divine simplicity doctrine. And so if your

1601
01:57:15,279 --> 01:57:19,600
model of the trinity isn't beginning with
the person of the Father and the monarchy

1602
01:57:19,720 --> 01:57:24,600
of the Father, which then requires
the type of subordination that I talked about,

1603
01:57:24,720 --> 01:57:29,399
not subordination in essence, but subordination
between divine hypostases. Jesus says that

1604
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:32,920
he always does what the Father wants. He always does the Father's will.

1605
01:57:33,079 --> 01:57:36,119
That doesn't mean he has a separate
will. It means that there's an ordering

1606
01:57:36,239 --> 01:57:40,960
in the triad that begins with the
person of the Father. Right when God

1607
01:57:41,039 --> 01:57:44,800
said I am I am he right, that's a reference to the person of

1608
01:57:44,960 --> 01:57:48,479
Yahweh, the Father, And so
Jesus is identified, but he's identified as

1609
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:54,079
the second person who's derivative of the
Father. So the original Nicene Creed says

1610
01:57:54,199 --> 01:58:00,760
that the Father is the source,
fount cause an arcae of the existence of

1611
01:58:00,880 --> 01:58:03,720
the son, who is begotten of
him. And so the son eternally is

1612
01:58:03,840 --> 01:58:10,479
derivative of the Father. He is
not spirated by the common essence. He's

1613
01:58:10,680 --> 01:58:13,920
excuse me, he's not generated by
the common essence because he would then generate

1614
01:58:14,039 --> 01:58:17,359
himself or the spirit would generate him. So he has to be specific to

1615
01:58:17,760 --> 01:58:25,000
the father's as a specific relation to
the Father in terms of deriving his essence

1616
01:58:25,079 --> 01:58:28,680
and his existence and his hypostasis from
the Father. And so if you don't

1617
01:58:28,720 --> 01:58:33,119
believe that, then you're actually rejecting
Nicene theology and the constantin of a one.

1618
01:58:33,199 --> 01:58:36,439
So because and that's that's odd because
earlier on we agreed in the chat

1619
01:58:36,479 --> 01:58:40,239
that you said that you agreed with
Nicene theology, that it was correct.

1620
01:58:40,520 --> 01:58:44,000
But nice theology does not teach that
the son is autotheois. In fact,

1621
01:58:44,039 --> 01:58:49,680
it rejects that. So Kelvin's teaching
on autotheos not all reformers, all reform

1622
01:58:49,720 --> 01:58:56,600
people agree with this, you know, so you can. So you don't

1623
01:58:56,600 --> 01:59:00,239
agree with so you rejected the actual
Nicene and constantin Polan definition of the trinity.

1624
01:59:01,520 --> 01:59:08,039
When you're you have you've rejected it. Well, when you're talking about

1625
01:59:08,039 --> 01:59:13,039
the son in isolation, the Son
is God in and of himself. The

1626
01:59:13,159 --> 01:59:16,159
Son is not a derivative like God
by derivation. When you're talking about that,

1627
01:59:16,279 --> 01:59:19,000
so you don't exist. There's no
such thing as the son in himself.

1628
01:59:19,079 --> 01:59:24,000
There's I mean, what do you
mean, the son in himself exists

1629
01:59:24,119 --> 01:59:28,560
from the father, and you understand
that this is in the original Nicene Creed.

1630
01:59:28,640 --> 01:59:31,560
That Athanasius is theology which accepted there
actually discusses the very question that you're

1631
01:59:31,560 --> 01:59:34,359
talking about. Yeah, son,
when you're talking about the son in relation

1632
01:59:34,479 --> 01:59:36,520
to the father, of the son
is indeed of the Father, and the

1633
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:40,720
Holy Spirit is of the Father and
the son. But the son doesn't exist

1634
01:59:40,840 --> 01:59:45,119
of himself. He derives his hypostasis
and his existence from the Father's nature.

1635
01:59:45,600 --> 01:59:48,960
That's the original Nicene teaching. So
I just want you to be I want

1636
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:54,840
you to say that you reject the
Nicene and Constantine Politan teaching. So you're

1637
01:59:54,880 --> 01:59:59,560
talking about the Nicene Creed or some
other like Canons of Nicea. The nice

1638
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:06,560
theology about genotos and Agintos from Affinacious
that's accepted at the original Nicene Creed is

1639
02:00:06,920 --> 02:00:12,760
that there's an eternal generation and that
you mark off the persons by hypostatic properties.

1640
02:00:13,239 --> 02:00:16,840
The father is identified as autotheos or
of himself, so the son cannot

1641
02:00:16,960 --> 02:00:23,680
be identified as autotheos. He would
be having the father's hypostatic marker, So

1642
02:00:24,000 --> 02:00:28,119
is self existence one of the divine
attributes is a city one of the divine

1643
02:00:28,119 --> 02:00:31,239
attributes. No, so you're saying
a city is not a divine attribute.

1644
02:00:31,800 --> 02:00:36,079
This is the logical problem the trinity. We've already done multiple streams on this.

1645
02:00:36,520 --> 02:00:41,520
So it's you have to distinguish nature
in person and so you can't you

1646
02:00:41,640 --> 02:00:46,399
can't collapse properties that are specific to
hypostases into properties that are common to the

1647
02:00:46,479 --> 02:00:53,920
persons. So as say that's a
hypostatic property, do you understand that the

1648
02:00:54,039 --> 02:00:58,479
Kappadocians, Basil, all of those
fathers that are that their theology is accepted

1649
02:00:58,560 --> 02:01:04,159
sonotally at Constantinople one they explicitly teach
hypostatic properties is how you pick out the

1650
02:01:04,199 --> 02:01:11,439
persons. And the father's hypostatic property
is to be cause and to be of

1651
02:01:11,600 --> 02:01:15,119
himself, to be assay. So
the son cannot receive the father's hyposthetic property

1652
02:01:15,119 --> 02:01:19,880
because anything you say or predicate of
two persons must also be predicated of the

1653
02:01:19,960 --> 02:01:24,760
third. There's no there's no properties
that two persons share that three don't have.

1654
02:01:27,279 --> 02:01:29,920
What about the fact that the son
and the spirit are both of the

1655
02:01:30,039 --> 02:01:33,800
father, and that's not a hyposthetic
property, that's a negative relation. So

1656
02:01:35,399 --> 02:01:39,920
you should read the Cappadocians. That's
my my. Uh yeah, as you

1657
02:01:39,960 --> 02:01:42,520
can see, as you can probably
tell, I have not read the Cappadocian

1658
02:01:42,600 --> 02:01:45,840
fathers. I read. I read
Augustin, not the Capito father. I

1659
02:01:45,880 --> 02:01:49,520
did the same thing. And again
I want to stress Augustine's trinitary theology is

1660
02:01:49,640 --> 02:01:55,359
not accepted as the second Ecumical Council. It's the Cappadocian doctrine of monarchia,

1661
02:01:55,800 --> 02:02:00,800
which is consistent with Athanasius's doctrine of
the son being eternally begun. Okay,

1662
02:02:01,600 --> 02:02:09,399
so Calvinism and Calvin himself does teach
that you distinguished the three persons of the

1663
02:02:09,399 --> 02:02:14,760
trinity by their personal properties, but
they're only distinguished in relation to one another.

1664
02:02:15,039 --> 02:02:17,840
Yeah, that's that's that's an error. You think it's an error to

1665
02:02:17,880 --> 02:02:20,439
say they're only distinguished in relation to
one another, right, because that's not

1666
02:02:20,560 --> 02:02:25,279
hypostatic properties. Well, they have
more distinctions than in relation to one other,

1667
02:02:25,359 --> 02:02:27,399
than they have different essences than you
have. Free. No, no,

1668
02:02:27,520 --> 02:02:30,960
they don't. So again, hyposthetic
properties is not the same thing as

1669
02:02:30,079 --> 02:02:35,319
relations. There are relations, but
relations are predicated on hyposthetic properties. That's

1670
02:02:35,359 --> 02:02:40,239
why you have to read Athanasius and
the Cappadocians themselves, because you're going to

1671
02:02:40,279 --> 02:02:43,560
realize that. And I just did
the live streams with doctor bo Branson.

1672
02:02:44,039 --> 02:02:46,640
His dissertation is on Nissa and the
Cappadocians on the monarchy of the Father.

1673
02:02:47,319 --> 02:02:50,479
This is this is or this is
the trinitarian theology of the Church, okay,

1674
02:02:50,560 --> 02:02:53,279
and it's not the August any of
view. So again, I just

1675
02:02:53,359 --> 02:02:56,720
want to point out that you've departed
from what the First and Second Councils actually

1676
02:02:56,760 --> 02:02:59,039
teach. I'm not trying to be
mean to you. I'm just saying that

1677
02:02:59,159 --> 02:03:05,079
this is not the August. Relations
are predicates, they're not subjects. Persons

1678
02:03:05,079 --> 02:03:10,079
are subjects. So this is why, for example, Aquinas says persona at

1679
02:03:10,159 --> 02:03:14,920
Rilatia, persons are relations. That's
not what distinguishes the person's. Persons are

1680
02:03:15,000 --> 02:03:19,479
subjects, and they have hyposthetic properties
that make them or idiomata that mark them

1681
02:03:19,520 --> 02:03:25,800
out as that. And so if
we wanted to use negative a scripture descriptions

1682
02:03:25,840 --> 02:03:30,720
as idiomata, this doesn't work because
there's infinite negative descriptors. You could say

1683
02:03:30,720 --> 02:03:33,920
the father is not China, the
father is not Florida, the father's not

1684
02:03:34,039 --> 02:03:40,199
so all those negative descriptors don't actually
function as idiomata or markers, So what

1685
02:03:40,439 --> 02:03:45,359
does function as markers? In Augustine's
theology, he struggles with this because he's

1686
02:03:45,399 --> 02:03:48,880
trying to do a bunch of different
models. He's got egalitarian, trinitarian theology,

1687
02:03:49,359 --> 02:03:55,000
he's got neoploatina Plutonian philosophy when he
quotes the Eneods to try to prove

1688
02:03:55,039 --> 02:03:57,520
the Philioakuay, he's got a bunch
of everything's going on. But he does

1689
02:03:57,600 --> 02:04:00,640
have some elements of the hyposthetic Probert
because he thinks the Father, for example,

1690
02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:05,199
is the principal cause, but he's
introduced a secondary cause by making the

1691
02:04:05,279 --> 02:04:09,760
son also a co cause with the
Father of the Holy Spirit. So the

1692
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:13,399
point of there is I'm just trying
to say that campodoc theology is very explicit

1693
02:04:13,479 --> 02:04:16,319
about this point. And if you
read gregham Nissa, if you read Basil's

1694
02:04:16,359 --> 02:04:20,760
Contra Eunomius, if you read Gregory
Nazian Agis's orations, I read all with

1695
02:04:20,760 --> 02:04:25,199
theological rations, they make this point
over and over and over that they're specific

1696
02:04:25,279 --> 02:04:32,319
hypostatic identifiers or idiomata. The fathers
is cause of himself, ungenerate in generate

1697
02:04:32,640 --> 02:04:39,000
Assey. These are all stating basically
the same idea about what picksald Or identifies

1698
02:04:39,319 --> 02:04:43,520
the hypostasis of the father, and
it's to be soul cause. Over and

1699
02:04:43,560 --> 02:04:45,279
over and over. The campudiations say
soul cause, soul cause, soul cause.

1700
02:04:45,800 --> 02:04:50,119
That means that any of those descriptors
that we used cannot be transferred over

1701
02:04:50,159 --> 02:04:55,039
to the hypostasis of the son.
So as say, if you don't have

1702
02:04:55,119 --> 02:04:59,000
philoquy are what's the distinct I'm sure
there is one. What is the distinction

1703
02:04:59,119 --> 02:05:03,119
and personal property between the son and
the spirit? Basil says that what that

1704
02:05:03,279 --> 02:05:08,279
distinction is we don't know that there
is the distinction. We do know,

1705
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:12,119
so the son that is a big
problem, because that's not a problem.

1706
02:05:13,199 --> 02:05:15,960
Make a lot more sense because then
you do have a very clear distinction between

1707
02:05:16,000 --> 02:05:20,479
the son and the spirit. No, it's not, it's the the Again,

1708
02:05:20,920 --> 02:05:26,199
relation is not person. You understand
that a person is a subject,

1709
02:05:26,920 --> 02:05:29,960
and to talk about a relation,
there are relations, right, So Gregor

1710
02:05:30,039 --> 02:05:32,920
Nessa talks a lot about relations,
and the father and the son do relate

1711
02:05:32,960 --> 02:05:38,239
to one another, and it is
it is proper to speak of distinguishing them

1712
02:05:38,439 --> 02:05:43,640
via relations. But the distinction by
relation is already resting on a more fundamental

1713
02:05:43,720 --> 02:05:48,560
assumption of persons as agents. Okay, and so what are the properties that

1714
02:05:48,760 --> 02:05:53,640
mark out the different persons? So
the thing that marks out the person of

1715
02:05:53,720 --> 02:05:57,760
the father is that he eternally begets
the son, and that is a relation,

1716
02:05:58,159 --> 02:06:01,079
but it's presupposing the relation a subjects
right. So the son is a

1717
02:06:01,119 --> 02:06:05,800
distinct subject who relates to the father, that's true. But he's distinguished by

1718
02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:11,319
being begotten, and he's also distinguished
by all the economia and the roles that

1719
02:06:11,439 --> 02:06:14,359
he takes on. So it's not
true that if I don't have philioque,

1720
02:06:14,439 --> 02:06:17,399
I don't have a way to distinguish
between father and son. The distinction is

1721
02:06:17,600 --> 02:06:20,640
by spirit. If you don't feel, ok, you can't really distinguish son,

1722
02:06:20,760 --> 02:06:24,279
I'm sorry, I mean I'm in
son and spirit. Right, So

1723
02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:29,239
what again? The starting point of
what distinguishes him is what's called hyposthetic properties.

1724
02:06:29,520 --> 02:06:32,399
Okay, that's that's Cappadocian, that's
affinacious, that's what's in the Second

1725
02:06:32,439 --> 02:06:38,039
Ecumenical Council. And the father's hypostasis
is to be cause, is to be

1726
02:06:38,119 --> 02:06:42,079
of himself. The son's hypostasis is
to be generated, to be son of

1727
02:06:42,119 --> 02:06:45,640
the Father. Those are all correct, but the relation is still not identical

1728
02:06:45,760 --> 02:06:51,000
to the subject. Think about me
and my father, right, I'm the

1729
02:06:51,119 --> 02:06:56,079
son of my father. Right,
that's a relation that I shared to him.

1730
02:06:56,520 --> 02:07:02,159
Is the relation identical to the hypostasis
or the person Jay? Right?

1731
02:07:02,279 --> 02:07:08,359
Because I'm a distinct, individuated subject
or person. So that there is a

1732
02:07:08,399 --> 02:07:15,039
distinct individuation refers back to their common
origin of being from the Father. And

1733
02:07:15,159 --> 02:07:20,600
so the fact that we don't know
the nature of aspiration versus generation does not

1734
02:07:20,800 --> 02:07:24,920
mean there's not a distinction. It
just simply means the nature of the distinction.

1735
02:07:25,039 --> 02:07:27,960
We don't know that there is a
distinction. We do know because that's

1736
02:07:28,000 --> 02:07:32,800
what's revealed. And that's why the
thing that distinguishes is father, Father as

1737
02:07:32,880 --> 02:07:36,399
sole cause is precisely what makes this
distinction. And in fact, to have

1738
02:07:36,520 --> 02:07:43,760
Philly Oakuey is again like auto Theeo's
to give to the son the hypostatic marker

1739
02:07:43,880 --> 02:07:45,800
of the Father. And by the
way, you don't avoid any of the

1740
02:07:45,840 --> 02:07:49,239
problems because in this action you subordinate
the Holy Spirit. Because if the Father

1741
02:07:49,359 --> 02:07:54,079
and the son possess a power that
the Holy Spirit lacks, then how is

1742
02:07:54,119 --> 02:07:58,279
the Holy spirit not onto logically subordinated, but you think it's okay to subordinate

1743
02:07:58,359 --> 02:08:05,279
the son. He's ontologically subordinated.
So the list then you can say the

1744
02:08:05,359 --> 02:08:09,960
father you're can you keep confusing hypostetic
properties with common powers or energies. That's

1745
02:08:11,000 --> 02:08:15,319
the confusion here. Hyposthetic property of
being caused or being assay marks out the

1746
02:08:15,399 --> 02:08:18,560
father. The hyposthetic property of being
the son marks out the son because he's

1747
02:08:18,640 --> 02:08:24,199
generated from the Father. Right,
those are hypostatic properties. You can't have

1748
02:08:24,479 --> 02:08:28,000
things that two persons in the triads
share that one of them lacks, because

1749
02:08:28,039 --> 02:08:33,399
that would be common powers, energies, or attributes. And so if being

1750
02:08:33,600 --> 02:08:37,479
cause is what is a marker of
divine power, then the father and the

1751
02:08:37,640 --> 02:08:43,880
son now have a power that the
spirit lacks and he's ontologically subordinated. That's

1752
02:08:43,960 --> 02:08:46,119
not the same thing as I see
the I see the problem. I see

1753
02:08:46,119 --> 02:08:50,920
the problem. Why can't you say
the like as the philioquy people would,

1754
02:08:50,319 --> 02:08:56,199
the Father causes and does not it
is not caused the son. It both

1755
02:08:56,279 --> 02:09:00,119
causes and is caused, and the
Spirit is caused but does not cause that

1756
02:09:00,479 --> 02:09:03,279
It's a very simple way to distinguish
all three persons attorney with hyposthetic properties.

1757
02:09:03,279 --> 02:09:09,520
Why can't you do that because it
still is subordinating the spirit because you still

1758
02:09:09,640 --> 02:09:15,279
have two persons that have a power
that the third lacks. So that's called

1759
02:09:15,359 --> 02:09:20,560
ontological subordination. So okay, so
then you're not a trinity. Then you're

1760
02:09:20,600 --> 02:09:26,039
a Macedonian. You're not a trinitarian. I mean you understand that the Macedonians

1761
02:09:26,039 --> 02:09:28,840
were condemned in the second a Givemnical
Council for that very position. Yeah,

1762
02:09:28,039 --> 02:09:33,560
so you're basically saying that you can
have like if you have negative attributes shared

1763
02:09:33,600 --> 02:09:37,479
by two persons, that's fine,
but you have positive attributes shared by two

1764
02:09:37,680 --> 02:09:43,880
negative negative attributes aren't idiomna. They
don't really work to do that because because

1765
02:09:43,960 --> 02:09:46,800
again, do you understand, relations
are not subjects. You could have infinite

1766
02:09:46,880 --> 02:09:50,520
relations, right, and some relations
are more relevant than other relations, right,

1767
02:09:50,680 --> 02:09:56,920
Like I relate to my father by
being his son via generation, and

1768
02:09:56,039 --> 02:10:03,560
that's a more that's a better idiot
than saying that I'm not China, I'm

1769
02:10:03,600 --> 02:10:07,439
not Brazil, I'm not a candy
bar, right, Like, we can

1770
02:10:07,560 --> 02:10:13,479
list infinite negative categories or relations that
don't really do anything for us. So

1771
02:10:13,720 --> 02:10:18,800
and this comes up, Actually on
the Trinity. Augustine says, one way

1772
02:10:18,880 --> 02:10:24,720
that we might distinguish the person's is
by saying that, well, the Father

1773
02:10:24,880 --> 02:10:26,600
is not the son of the spirit. The son is not the father or

1774
02:10:26,680 --> 02:10:31,640
the Spirit. Right. Well,
the problem is that this is a negative

1775
02:10:31,760 --> 02:10:35,600
marker that all three share, and
it doesn't actually do much work to actually

1776
02:10:35,680 --> 02:10:39,520
identify which one is what that subject
is. Just like saying that Jay's not

1777
02:10:39,680 --> 02:10:43,439
China, Jay's not Brazil, Jay's
not Candy Bar. None of that is

1778
02:10:43,479 --> 02:10:48,359
actually telling you the specific hypostatic idio
mota or a marker of who Jay is.

1779
02:10:48,600 --> 02:10:52,279
You see, Yeah, I see
what you're saying. I noticed that

1780
02:10:52,439 --> 02:10:58,560
Kyle hasn't said anything since the last
Yeah, right, yeah, just been

1781
02:10:58,640 --> 02:11:01,279
listening. This has been really interest
interesting going through all these issues. I

1782
02:11:01,399 --> 02:11:07,560
wanted to mention when I made my
second why I'm Not Orthodox video, I

1783
02:11:07,680 --> 02:11:11,920
mentioned that the Western the philiopa makes
it more sense because it makes the Trinity

1784
02:11:11,039 --> 02:11:13,479
more like a triangle, and then
you just roasted me for that thing.

1785
02:11:13,560 --> 02:11:18,079
It's like, the Trinity is a
triangle. It's like two thousand years of

1786
02:11:18,159 --> 02:11:22,880
theology is out, but you don't
now Yeah, it's like or whatever I

1787
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:26,520
think you guys have done a really
good job of explaining that there really is

1788
02:11:26,840 --> 02:11:31,000
differences between Reformed and Orthodox theology.
And it's kind of the question that I

1789
02:11:31,079 --> 02:11:33,479
have is redeem zoomer. You kind
of have the view that we're part of

1790
02:11:33,600 --> 02:11:37,760
the same church, like even Baptist
Catholics, Orthodox, we're all part of

1791
02:11:37,840 --> 02:11:41,479
this bigger church. But Jay and
I we believe that the Orthodox Church,

1792
02:11:41,600 --> 02:11:46,720
you know, it is the arch
Salvation and that's why we want to convert

1793
02:11:46,760 --> 02:11:50,439
everyone to Orthodoxy. And you know
you've said that, you know, the

1794
02:11:50,560 --> 02:11:56,279
Orthodox Church it's spiritual nourishment as Jay
has described, like we have our theology

1795
02:11:56,359 --> 02:12:00,880
is very in depth and we have
the right theology. So what exactly is

1796
02:12:00,960 --> 02:12:05,920
like the Orthodox Church missing? Because
we have explained that you know, the

1797
02:12:05,079 --> 02:12:09,319
errors in these in these other views. So and also it seems contradictory because

1798
02:12:09,319 --> 02:12:13,119
we know the Holy Spirit guides at
church, but it's not leading it in

1799
02:12:13,199 --> 02:12:16,279
different directions. So there has to
be like back to that that visible body,

1800
02:12:16,399 --> 02:12:22,960
that normative authority. So yeah,
like what like why not be Orthodox?

1801
02:12:24,279 --> 02:12:26,479
And then Ja, if you want
to talk about humanism and how that's

1802
02:12:26,600 --> 02:12:28,920
problematic in ecclesiology, Well, I'm
gonna have to go pretty soon, but

1803
02:12:30,000 --> 02:12:33,880
after this question, maybe we could
try to wrap it up. And I'm

1804
02:12:33,920 --> 02:12:35,359
not trying to be rude or whatever, but probably yeah, I have to

1805
02:12:35,399 --> 02:12:41,359
go after this question, but go
ahead. Yeah, So briefly, what

1806
02:12:41,560 --> 02:12:43,800
what is the Orthodox Church lacking?
And it's like, yeah, it has

1807
02:12:43,840 --> 02:12:48,439
spiritual nourishment. It is the true
Church. It's not. It's not exclusively

1808
02:12:48,520 --> 02:12:50,760
the true Church, the Orthodox Church. It is the true Church. If

1809
02:12:50,800 --> 02:12:54,039
it has rudedness in church history,
that's because it does. That's that's not

1810
02:12:54,199 --> 02:12:58,279
a it's not a sarde or anything. I would say the Catholic Church is

1811
02:12:58,279 --> 02:13:00,840
also the true Church, and the
Protestant Church is also the true Church.

1812
02:13:01,079 --> 02:13:05,039
So I'm not saying their true church
is. There's one holy Catholic and Apostolic

1813
02:13:05,159 --> 02:13:09,560
Church, and it's not united by
a human organization. It's united in Christ.

1814
02:13:09,680 --> 02:13:13,720
We're all united in Christ. The
Bible says no one can confess Jesus

1815
02:13:13,760 --> 02:13:18,680
is Lord sincerely except by the power
of the Holy Spirit. And Lord in

1816
02:13:18,760 --> 02:13:20,720
this case means God. So that
means you can't be a Mormon where you

1817
02:13:20,800 --> 02:13:26,800
say Jesus is like a God,
but by God you mean something completely one

1818
02:13:26,840 --> 02:13:31,359
thousand miles off the planet to what
you know, Christians mean by God,

1819
02:13:31,920 --> 02:13:37,079
but we are united by our faith
in Christ. The Bible says, if

1820
02:13:37,119 --> 02:13:39,640
you confess with your mouth Jesus Lord, you believe in your heart that God

1821
02:13:39,760 --> 02:13:43,640
raised him from the dead, you
will be saved. And remember in Mark

1822
02:13:43,720 --> 02:13:46,520
nine, there were people who are
not with the Disciples, not part of

1823
02:13:46,520 --> 02:13:50,720
the Disciples organization, casting out demons
in Jesus's name. The Disciples asked Jesus,

1824
02:13:50,760 --> 02:13:52,800
tell them to stop, and Jesus
says, no, don't hinder them

1825
02:13:52,439 --> 02:13:56,760
forever who anyone who is not against
us is for us. So the New

1826
02:13:56,880 --> 02:14:01,800
Testament clearly says that our faith in
Christ is what unites us as the Church.

1827
02:14:01,840 --> 02:14:05,840
We're not united organizationally. I think
providentially, God did arrangement so that

1828
02:14:05,920 --> 02:14:11,079
the church was united originally organizationally,
so they could work out what the true

1829
02:14:11,119 --> 02:14:15,199
faith is and what it's not.
Doesn't mean the early Church as an institution

1830
02:14:15,399 --> 02:14:18,199
itself was infallible. Like I said, but we're I don't want to go

1831
02:14:18,319 --> 02:14:22,159
back into the whole debate that we
said. I would be very interested to

1832
02:14:22,199 --> 02:14:26,760
hear Jay Dyer's problems with acumenism.
First of all, I'll say, like,

1833
02:14:26,840 --> 02:14:28,359
what is the Orthodox Church lacking well, like I said, we have

1834
02:14:28,560 --> 02:14:31,800
some even though we see it as
the true Church, we have some serious

1835
02:14:31,800 --> 02:14:35,000
problems with its theology. We think
it's theology of sin is one of the

1836
02:14:35,000 --> 02:14:39,359
biggest things. We don't think that's
biblical. That we believe the Filio Way

1837
02:14:39,479 --> 02:14:41,159
is biblical. So that's kind of
why it's like, yes, it can

1838
02:14:41,199 --> 02:14:43,720
be a group, it can have
great spiritual urishment. That doesn't mean it's

1839
02:14:43,880 --> 02:14:48,079
correct about everything. I mean,
if it is the one true Church,

1840
02:14:48,119 --> 02:14:50,399
then yet we have to accept wherever
it says, well, we don't start

1841
02:14:50,439 --> 02:14:54,439
with that assumption. So we see
these theological areas, and that's why we're

1842
02:14:54,479 --> 02:14:58,960
not telling everyone to become with us. I would add, by the way,

1843
02:14:58,000 --> 02:15:01,239
I did look up, Thank you
to Jieb. I forgot about the

1844
02:15:01,279 --> 02:15:07,760
Westminster Larger Catechism. It does state
in question forty eight forty nine point fifty

1845
02:15:09,039 --> 02:15:13,800
that Christ was in some way damned
to the Father. It says specifically that

1846
02:15:15,079 --> 02:15:20,079
he did experience the full weight of
God's wrath on the cross, So I

1847
02:15:20,199 --> 02:15:22,840
knew that. I didn't know.
I wasn't sure if that equated to being

1848
02:15:22,920 --> 02:15:26,079
damned. Well, but then you
already admit that Christ that the wrath that

1849
02:15:26,159 --> 02:15:31,319
we deserve is damnation. So does
does he give does get does he give

1850
02:15:31,399 --> 02:15:35,359
Jesus like fifty percent wrath or like
thirty percent wrath? Or the wrath we

1851
02:15:35,479 --> 02:15:43,359
deserve is damnation. But that doesn't
necessarily mean suffering the penalty of damnation is

1852
02:15:43,479 --> 02:15:46,680
the same as actually being condemned by
the Father. It's like, let's say

1853
02:15:46,720 --> 02:15:52,600
you you, you go to jail
because of a crime that you committed.

1854
02:15:52,319 --> 02:15:56,520
That's not the same. That doesn't
mean that going to jail is the same

1855
02:15:56,600 --> 02:16:03,560
as actually being accused of the crime. Well, what is what is the

1856
02:16:03,640 --> 02:16:09,560
wrath there? So the wrath is
simply the punishment of damnation. That doesn't

1857
02:16:09,600 --> 02:16:13,760
necessarily mean in order for the Jesus
to experience the wrath of God, he

1858
02:16:13,920 --> 02:16:18,640
necessarily has to actively be condemned by
the person of the Father. Anyway,

1859
02:16:20,079 --> 02:16:22,760
Okay, again, I've got it
on screen there and people can look and

1860
02:16:22,840 --> 02:16:26,359
see what the Westminster Confession is.
So my comment on the statement about the

1861
02:16:26,479 --> 02:16:31,120
church is that, you know,
Nestorianism doesn't just come in in a chrystological

1862
02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:35,840
form. It also comes in an
ecclesiological form. And the idea that all

1863
02:16:35,879 --> 02:16:39,920
of the multitudes of sex that exist
out there that on the basis of a

1864
02:16:41,000 --> 02:16:46,680
lewis common denominator citation of the fact
that nobody can say Jesus Lord. I

1865
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:50,840
mean, Mormons actually confess Jesus's Lord. So to say that Jesus' Lord somehow

1866
02:16:50,920 --> 02:16:56,159
excludes Mormons as a common identify of
Christianity also doesn't work. There's a lot

1867
02:16:56,200 --> 02:16:58,440
of different churches in the people actually
believe He's Lord because Lord and the nudesman

1868
02:16:58,520 --> 02:17:01,000
means God. Believe he's God.
Yeah, they do. They believe that

1869
02:17:01,079 --> 02:17:03,760
He. They believe in three gods. They are tritheis. So I'm just

1870
02:17:03,840 --> 02:17:09,559
making well if I if I said
that, like Jesus is a tomato and

1871
02:17:09,719 --> 02:17:11,760
I the word I use for tomato
is God, that doesn't mean I actually

1872
02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:16,719
think Jesus God. So no,
they are tri theists. Is completely different.

1873
02:17:16,879 --> 02:17:20,600
No, it's not any Abrahamic religion, Okay, but they're tri theists

1874
02:17:20,719 --> 02:17:22,399
and so they do believe that Jesus
is God. And so that's why you're

1875
02:17:22,399 --> 02:17:28,079
going to have to go into the
actual Trinitarian theology of the church. That's

1876
02:17:28,200 --> 02:17:33,040
historical. There is no other Trinitarian
theology. We don't need today's Michael Horton's

1877
02:17:33,079 --> 02:17:37,479
and whoever working to try to make
something that was already laid down and solidified

1878
02:17:37,879 --> 02:17:41,719
make it work with Protestantism. Because
I'm not trying to be rude here,

1879
02:17:41,760 --> 02:17:45,399
but just simply saying that all of
the discussion, I think throughout the sort

1880
02:17:45,399 --> 02:17:48,040
of trying to find Protestant theologians that
have some elements of Orthodox It's fine to

1881
02:17:48,120 --> 02:17:52,600
do that in dialogue, but when
it comes to the actual practice in life

1882
02:17:52,639 --> 02:17:58,239
of the church, it doesn't actually
work to have a church based around lowest

1883
02:17:58,280 --> 02:18:01,399
common denominator ideas of confessing just that
Jesus Lord, because that you didn't have

1884
02:18:01,479 --> 02:18:05,280
to hew yourself there, just had
to qualify. Well, when Mormons say

1885
02:18:05,319 --> 02:18:07,680
it, they mean this is this
is this exactly, And that's precisely why

1886
02:18:07,719 --> 02:18:13,799
we already have these qualifiers in the
ecumenical councils, particularly first and second,

1887
02:18:13,239 --> 02:18:20,680
which already cut out philioque and cut
out the denial of the Father as auto

1888
02:18:20,719 --> 02:18:22,479
theeos alone. So I'm just trying
to say that if we're going to be

1889
02:18:22,639 --> 02:18:28,000
faithful to you know, these councils
and whatever, then we're gonna be faithful

1890
02:18:28,040 --> 02:18:33,120
to the church that produced those councils
and the church that produce those councils is

1891
02:18:33,200 --> 02:18:35,840
identical to the theology of the Orthodox
Church today. We don't differ in any

1892
02:18:35,879 --> 02:18:39,520
significant way when I read not just
the dogma, but the canons of those

1893
02:18:39,520 --> 02:18:43,879
councils. When I read the Canons
of Nicea, it talks about the Eucharist,

1894
02:18:43,920 --> 02:18:46,399
it talks about fiaticum for the dead, It talks about bishops, it

1895
02:18:46,440 --> 02:18:50,120
talks about virgins, it talks about
monastics. All these kinds of things are

1896
02:18:50,159 --> 02:18:54,040
mentioned in the first, second,
third ecumenical councils. And so you know

1897
02:18:54,159 --> 02:18:58,879
that's that Apostolic succession is the thing
that is one of the key indicators of

1898
02:19:00,159 --> 02:19:05,600
true in a false church. Protestants
whole sale do not possess apostolic succession.

1899
02:19:05,639 --> 02:19:09,079
And so I'm not saying that Roman
Catholics are there for the church because they

1900
02:19:09,159 --> 02:19:13,040
have that. I'm just saying it's
one of the necessary criteria. Protestants don't

1901
02:19:13,040 --> 02:19:16,159
even have that necessary criteria. So
to have that, Jesus says, for

1902
02:19:16,239 --> 02:19:20,559
example, he who hears you hears
me, and so he breathes on them.

1903
02:19:20,639 --> 02:19:22,319
And when they go out. If
you read the Pauline Epistles Paul to

1904
02:19:22,360 --> 02:19:24,760
Timothy, he says, I laid
hands on you, Timothy, you don't

1905
02:19:24,799 --> 02:19:30,360
lay hands on anybody too quickly in
efficence. Make sure that you find good

1906
02:19:30,479 --> 02:19:33,000
people who you can lay hands on
them. He says. The Holy Spirit

1907
02:19:33,280 --> 02:19:37,760
is imparted in the laying on of
hands. That's also something unique to the

1908
02:19:37,920 --> 02:19:43,639
Orthodox Church, or even specifically Apostolic
succession. I should say, because Protestants

1909
02:19:43,879 --> 02:19:46,239
they believe in the laying on of
hands of elders, they do not believe

1910
02:19:46,280 --> 02:19:50,360
that there's a specific succession that's passed
on. This is really just a biblical

1911
02:19:50,440 --> 02:19:54,280
idea, because the Holy Spirit in
the Old Testament has passed on through Moses

1912
02:19:54,360 --> 02:19:58,479
laying on his hands upon Joshua and
others. There's a lineage of the successors

1913
02:19:58,520 --> 02:20:03,600
of the ironic priesthood. That's a
succession that is melded in the New Testament

1914
02:20:03,639 --> 02:20:09,360
into the successors of the apostles who
have the blessing, who have the true

1915
02:20:09,760 --> 02:20:13,200
Melchizedecian priesthood. So these things are
continued in the New Testament. They're not

1916
02:20:13,280 --> 02:20:18,680
just made up wholesale. And even
in what our friend redeem Zoomer said there

1917
02:20:18,680 --> 02:20:22,959
about the church and initially being constituted
as a body to decide these things,

1918
02:20:24,319 --> 02:20:26,280
he talked to as if it almost
kind of failed, like soon after that

1919
02:20:26,399 --> 02:20:31,280
it fell off into all of these
accretions and false doctrines or whatever that no

1920
02:20:31,440 --> 02:20:35,000
longer allow it to function that way. But Paul says, there's one Lord,

1921
02:20:35,040 --> 02:20:39,360
one faith, one body, one
baptism and ecclesiological Nestorianism is then to

1922
02:20:39,639 --> 02:20:46,360
divorce the notion of the body from
the physical historical physical body, the physical

1923
02:20:46,440 --> 02:20:48,760
body of the people at Ephesis,
the people at Corinth, the people who

1924
02:20:48,799 --> 02:20:52,639
succeeded those churches. But there are
still church. There is still a church

1925
02:20:52,680 --> 02:20:56,600
in Ephesis. That extends back to
what Paul is telling Timothy to do an

1926
02:20:56,600 --> 02:21:00,120
ethicis that lay hands on to create
successors. Those churches still exists to this

1927
02:21:00,280 --> 02:21:03,159
day, and so any church that
lacks that succession and that transmission is not

1928
02:21:03,280 --> 02:21:07,879
even a church. Typically in the
Church Fathers, they're called parachurches. So

1929
02:21:07,959 --> 02:21:11,120
we would agree that we can have
dialogue and discussion about areas that we agree

1930
02:21:11,159 --> 02:21:16,079
and disagree. But I think that
the normative authority of the church in history,

1931
02:21:16,280 --> 02:21:18,520
the idea of them putting together and
deciding the canon, which is the

1932
02:21:18,680 --> 02:21:22,920
Orthodox Bible, which includes the Deutero
Canon. It's not the Protestant canon that

1933
02:21:24,079 --> 02:21:28,040
Martin Luther decided that he would choose
to your own one Catholic one. Well,

1934
02:21:28,120 --> 02:21:35,440
but we don't have a doctrine of
the notion of canonicity and infallibility as

1935
02:21:35,559 --> 02:21:39,239
the sort of like the only authority, right. So, in other words,

1936
02:21:39,040 --> 02:21:43,680
if you believe in tradition, you
might have a looser notion of what

1937
02:21:43,840 --> 02:21:48,639
constitutes canon to allow for extra canonical
things in different traditions to be there to

1938
02:21:48,719 --> 02:21:52,920
not be there. So, for
example, if the Roman Catholic canon lacks

1939
02:21:52,000 --> 02:21:58,200
one or two the dudocononical texts,
that's not really a problem for a church

1940
02:21:58,280 --> 02:22:03,920
that accept extra canonical tradition, because
that's how the but but there but but

1941
02:22:03,000 --> 02:22:07,120
the but the Protestant but but your
but but your doctrine is authority. Then

1942
02:22:07,319 --> 02:22:11,159
it almost doesn't matter. You don't
even need a Bible. No, that's

1943
02:22:11,200 --> 02:22:13,600
not true at all. It's just
simply to say that the church is not

1944
02:22:13,719 --> 02:22:18,600
governed by the written text alone.
It's governed by multiple different authorities. There's

1945
02:22:18,600 --> 02:22:22,440
a living authority of the bishopric,
there are written texts, there's the teachings

1946
02:22:22,440 --> 02:22:24,360
of the councils. All of these
things go together holistically. It's not an

1947
02:22:24,440 --> 02:22:28,239
either or so I'm not anyway,
we can continue this discussion. We have

1948
02:22:28,280 --> 02:22:31,600
another discussion down the road if we
want. But yeah, I would just

1949
02:22:31,639 --> 02:22:37,639
say that I think that ultimately Calvinism
is a kind of Nestorian ecclesiology whereby uh,

1950
02:22:37,719 --> 02:22:41,799
it leads logically to an a kind
of acumenism where all the churches uh.

1951
02:22:41,920 --> 02:22:43,639
And by the way, I know
you would say that, well,

1952
02:22:43,639 --> 02:22:46,399
you have to confess tod to Christ. Oh so wait a minute. If

1953
02:22:46,399 --> 02:22:48,760
I confess the de to Christ,
I can be part of your accumunist project

1954
02:22:48,959 --> 02:22:54,799
who constitute But I don't have to
believe the deed the Holy Spirit. So

1955
02:22:54,040 --> 02:23:00,239
when we say Jesus is Lord,
we're saying Jesus is God. And that

1956
02:23:00,319 --> 02:23:03,520
means basically, you need to believe
in the one true God, who is

1957
02:23:03,559 --> 02:23:07,159
the one true God. It's not
just God in some abstract sense, it's

1958
02:23:07,280 --> 02:23:09,479
the Christian godfathers on Holy Spirit.
So well, but now you're attacking on

1959
02:23:09,639 --> 02:23:13,520
additional criteria. So it's not actually
just believing in Jesus Lord, right,

1960
02:23:13,559 --> 02:23:18,559
it's all these other things. And
Paul talks about all kinds of things constituting

1961
02:23:18,600 --> 02:23:20,799
heresies and schisms, and that's why
the church in Corinth, for example,

1962
02:23:20,840 --> 02:23:26,719
has the ability and authority to excommunicate
and throw people out. And I don't

1963
02:23:26,760 --> 02:23:31,159
think that you find modern day Protestant
churches continuing to have that authority and that

1964
02:23:31,239 --> 02:23:35,959
ability and so on the whole.
There is no Protestant church with normative authority.

1965
02:23:37,000 --> 02:23:39,280
And I think that's the point I
was trying to make. Yeah,

1966
02:23:39,319 --> 02:23:41,440
that was what we talked about in
the beginning. I've said that there are

1967
02:23:41,520 --> 02:23:45,520
examples of Protestant churches, you know, doing church discipline, kicking people out

1968
02:23:45,559 --> 02:23:48,879
for Yeah, but that doesn't equate
to normative authority, which I was talking

1969
02:23:48,879 --> 02:23:52,920
about in terms of binding people's consciences. There's no Protestant church. Let's listen.

1970
02:23:54,079 --> 02:23:58,920
Do you believe that there's a Protestant
church that has elders or living authorities

1971
02:23:58,000 --> 02:24:03,799
that can bind people's conscience to a
decision. So it's not an infallible authority,

1972
02:24:03,879 --> 02:24:05,360
like I said, But that's not
what I asked. Is there any

1973
02:24:05,479 --> 02:24:13,319
notion of buying people's consciences to a
decision. It's ministerial authority, not magisterial

1974
02:24:13,360 --> 02:24:16,600
authority. Can they bind people's consciences
to a decision? It depends on what

1975
02:24:16,680 --> 02:24:20,440
you mean by that. Well,
I mean the Reformation confessions say that you

1976
02:24:20,520 --> 02:24:24,840
can't bind people's consciences to decisions like
that. I would say generally no,

1977
02:24:24,959 --> 02:24:28,840
but they can still kick people at
It's like if someone will, okay,

1978
02:24:28,879 --> 02:24:31,079
so I don't have to listen to
it, so you can. So if

1979
02:24:31,079 --> 02:24:35,360
I'm in a Calvinist church and they
excommunicate, say somebody who follows Doug Wilson,

1980
02:24:35,799 --> 02:24:37,799
I don't have to listen to it
because it doesn't buy me, right,

1981
02:24:41,079 --> 02:24:46,200
I guess not exactly. So there's
not no order authority. That's my

1982
02:24:46,239 --> 02:24:52,360
point. But also, if you
were excommunicated, according to you redeem Zoom,

1983
02:24:52,360 --> 02:24:54,639
you would still be part of the
church, because you think if you

1984
02:24:54,719 --> 02:24:58,319
leave like a Reformed church and you
join an Anglican church, you're still part

1985
02:24:58,360 --> 02:25:03,639
of the church. So it just
it's it's confusing ecclesiology. Yeah, one

1986
02:25:03,719 --> 02:25:07,399
Lord, one faith, one baptism, one body. And that's the attitude

1987
02:25:07,559 --> 02:25:09,799
of the church fathers, of the
ecumenical councils. They have the authority to

1988
02:25:09,879 --> 02:25:15,079
say, the Arians, the Macedonians, these people over here, they aren't

1989
02:25:15,079 --> 02:25:18,440
the church. They do not possess
it's not just absolute succession, but they

1990
02:25:18,440 --> 02:25:22,440
also don't possess the doctrines that are
true. They don't possess the sacraments and

1991
02:25:22,479 --> 02:25:26,760
the presence of Christ and the sacraments, and they don't possess the same faith

1992
02:25:26,799 --> 02:25:30,280
as us. Yeah, well I
would agree you said, it's like an

1993
02:25:30,399 --> 02:25:33,440
ecclesiastical historianism. We do see a
distinction between the visible and the invisible church.

1994
02:25:33,440 --> 02:25:37,920
The invisible church as anyone who believes
in Christ. And sometimes it's the

1995
02:25:39,520 --> 02:25:41,479
reason. The problem with the invisible
church is that it's invisible. You can't

1996
02:25:41,600 --> 02:25:46,559
exactly know whether someone is a genuine
believer. You can only see what they

1997
02:25:46,120 --> 02:25:52,719
the fruit they produced. Like James
says that, so if someone is either

1998
02:25:52,799 --> 02:25:58,920
living in an unrepentent sin or confesses
heretical doctrine, you do expel them from

1999
02:25:58,959 --> 02:26:03,239
the assembly of believers. Again,
but the decision isn't binding. I don't

2000
02:26:03,280 --> 02:26:07,319
have to listen to that, and
so it really doesn't mean anything that one

2001
02:26:07,399 --> 02:26:11,040
Protestant group expels somebody who can just
create their own group the next day.

2002
02:26:11,159 --> 02:26:16,280
So there's not normative authority, because
the Protestant doctrine itself says in its classical

2003
02:26:16,319 --> 02:26:18,920
Reformation traditions that there is the freedom
of conscience, that you can't bind people

2004
02:26:20,040 --> 02:26:22,760
to interpretations of scripture. But you
need to be able to bind people to

2005
02:26:22,840 --> 02:26:28,079
interpretations of scripture to excommunicate them.
And this is precise to the point is

2006
02:26:28,120 --> 02:26:31,520
that there is one Church in history. There's not a thousand different churches in

2007
02:26:31,639 --> 02:26:37,000
history. And so the invisible Church
doctrine divides the presence of Christ from his

2008
02:26:37,120 --> 02:26:41,040
actual visible historical body and his presence
amongst a thousand different sects. So I

2009
02:26:41,120 --> 02:26:46,239
can agree that there's grace in different
groups, but there's not the grace of

2010
02:26:46,280 --> 02:26:48,559
the one true Church in a thousand
different groups. And that's why there's one

2011
02:26:48,680 --> 02:26:52,280
Lord, one faith, one body, one And that's the attitude of everybody

2012
02:26:52,319 --> 02:26:56,600
at these ectomenical councils. You understand
that they're not arguing what you argue.

2013
02:26:56,639 --> 02:27:00,959
They don't argue that we are one
church with all all of the different schisms

2014
02:27:01,000 --> 02:27:03,000
and all the different groups out there. If you just confessed Jesus's Lord,

2015
02:27:03,079 --> 02:27:07,239
because then you said it's not just
that it also is the Trinity. Okay,

2016
02:27:07,280 --> 02:27:09,559
but wait a minute. All of
the Eunomias said he believed in Father,

2017
02:27:09,639 --> 02:27:13,319
Son, Holy Spirit, but he
was an anti Trinitarian, right,

2018
02:27:13,319 --> 02:27:16,799
So every group that's why it has
to get explicit and there has to be

2019
02:27:16,440 --> 02:27:20,600
You can't just say that everybody that's
a Protestant and a Catholic an Orthodox person

2020
02:27:20,719 --> 02:27:24,920
is part of a general visible church
because there has to be normative authority.

2021
02:27:26,040 --> 02:27:28,399
Otherwise it's just chaos. And I'm
not trying to be rude to you,

2022
02:27:28,600 --> 02:27:33,000
but that's that's my argument. It's
legitimate criticism. Protestantism today is indeed chaos.

2023
02:27:33,120 --> 02:27:37,479
I will I will admit that Protestantism
and it's an ideal form like you

2024
02:27:37,559 --> 02:27:41,719
say, you say that these classical
reformers, they said they didn't have authority

2025
02:27:41,760 --> 02:27:45,920
to buying people's consciouss, but they
still were excommunicating people. It's like servetus,

2026
02:27:46,159 --> 02:27:48,520
but you just admitted. You just
admitted that. As a Protestant,

2027
02:27:48,559 --> 02:27:50,559
don't have to fall I don't have
to follow that. I admit what.

2028
02:27:50,840 --> 02:27:52,799
You just admitted that as a Protestant, you don't have to follow that.

2029
02:27:54,440 --> 02:28:00,319
But it's like they don't have the
they can't bind people's consciences because they don't

2030
02:28:00,319 --> 02:28:03,840
have the filable authority. They were
still excommunicating people. Those same reformers you're

2031
02:28:03,840 --> 02:28:07,959
talking about the people of the classical
information, they did tons of excommunications.

2032
02:28:07,040 --> 02:28:11,840
There were a lot of Anabaptist heretics, and these errotics were worse than like

2033
02:28:11,920 --> 02:28:15,520
modern Baptists were. They were Trinity
deniers. Servetus is the biggest example.

2034
02:28:15,719 --> 02:28:16,840
But you're a trinity, but in
my view, you're a Trinity denier.

2035
02:28:20,239 --> 02:28:22,479
So I mean, yeah, the
Orthodox are very picky about distinction between like

2036
02:28:22,639 --> 02:28:26,239
this sort of essence and this sort
of like No, it's the first two

2037
02:28:26,280 --> 02:28:33,440
ecumenical councils which you rejected. But
I don't know Calvinists, no respectable Calvinists

2038
02:28:33,479 --> 02:28:37,200
would reject the nice and Creed.
You just we already established earlier that when

2039
02:28:37,239 --> 02:28:39,360
you said that you believe in auto
Theos, that's a rejection of the first

2040
02:28:39,399 --> 02:28:43,680
and second Ecumoical councils. Is it
a rejection of the nicing Creed? Yes,

2041
02:28:46,120 --> 02:28:48,200
no it's not. Yes it is
because calvin Is still affirm of the

2042
02:28:48,280 --> 02:28:52,239
Nice and Creed. Yeah, it's
you're playing word games. I'm not saying

2043
02:28:52,239 --> 02:28:54,840
you're mean but or being bad.
I'm saying that you're playing word games by

2044
02:28:54,920 --> 02:28:56,879
saying I accept the Creed as it
is, but I interpret it my own

2045
02:28:56,920 --> 02:29:01,479
way. Just like when the contant
and apology and Creed says I believe in

2046
02:29:01,520 --> 02:29:05,200
one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Every Calvinist reinterprets that to allow for Calvinism

2047
02:29:05,280 --> 02:29:09,600
to be in there somehow. No, No one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

2048
02:29:09,680 --> 02:29:11,680
meant in the mind of those people, that were the Creed, Apostolic succession

2049
02:29:11,959 --> 02:29:16,559
and a single visible institution, which
you reject. And also they taught the

2050
02:29:16,639 --> 02:29:20,639
monarchy of the Father hypostatic properties,
the Father is the sole cause, and

2051
02:29:20,719 --> 02:29:26,000
they do not teach that the Son
is Autotheos. That's specifically rejected in Athanasius's

2052
02:29:26,079 --> 02:29:31,520
argumentation at the original Nicene Creed.
So you do not believe that the first

2053
02:29:31,559 --> 02:29:35,079
and second Alchemical as they as the
theology is presented, you could take the

2054
02:29:35,159 --> 02:29:39,520
phrases of the Creed itself and reinterpret
them the mean Calvinism and AtheOS, but

2055
02:29:39,680 --> 02:29:45,079
that's dishonest with the theologians who produced
that council. And that's what every Calvinist

2056
02:29:45,159 --> 02:29:48,000
does is reinterpret the Church Fathers to
make it Calvinists. And I'm saying that's

2057
02:29:48,000 --> 02:29:54,840
a that's a bogus move. So
the way a creed or a confession works

2058
02:29:54,360 --> 02:30:00,440
is different people who often have different
ideas. It's that's been the case in

2059
02:30:00,520 --> 02:30:05,319
many different instances of churches three,
whether they're con you specifically are rejecting the

2060
02:30:05,479 --> 02:30:09,600
doctrine of the subordination of the son, deriving his existence from the Father.

2061
02:30:11,120 --> 02:30:16,520
So every every Creed that's ever written
is a bunch of people with differing positions

2062
02:30:16,879 --> 02:30:20,159
coming together to produce something that they
can No, it's to produce a definitive

2063
02:30:20,200 --> 02:30:24,399
decision. It's not to produce a
document that everybody can interpret their own way.

2064
02:30:24,319 --> 02:30:28,520
Was not to make a document everyone
can interpret their own way. You

2065
02:30:28,680 --> 02:30:33,079
cannot interpret the Nicing Creed to say
Jesus is not You cannot interpret the original

2066
02:30:33,200 --> 02:30:37,000
Nicing Creed to say that the Son
is autotheos. You can't. No,

2067
02:30:37,159 --> 02:30:41,280
you can't. That's dishonest. You
cannot. You just admitted that you weren't

2068
02:30:41,280 --> 02:30:43,079
familiar with the Cappadocians. So how
are you going to know that the second

2069
02:30:43,120 --> 02:30:48,159
Econmenical Council's Creed, which builds on
the original Nicene Creed, How are you

2070
02:30:48,159 --> 02:30:50,079
going to know that they teach and
allow for autotheos if you haven't read them.

2071
02:30:52,120 --> 02:30:54,959
So you're saying that there is that
every single person who was involved in

2072
02:30:56,040 --> 02:30:58,920
the creation of the Nicing Creed,
they all rejected auto that the Council accepts

2073
02:31:00,079 --> 02:31:05,399
Cappadocian theology specifically, which is building
on Athanationian theology. Nicia explicitly says,

2074
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:09,639
you have to believe it the way
that Athanasius taught it. Capital the constant

2075
02:31:09,760 --> 02:31:15,239
Noble one, there's a decree sent
out by Theodosius saying you better agree with

2076
02:31:15,319 --> 02:31:18,440
Gregory of Nissa as a representative of
the Cappadocian theology because that's what the Second

2077
02:31:18,440 --> 02:31:22,440
Ecumenical Council teaches and means. So
yes, they specifically are saying you have

2078
02:31:22,600 --> 02:31:26,520
to understand it in the cappudition sense. Okay, I see what you're saying.

2079
02:31:28,559 --> 02:31:31,639
And what do you think the binding
and losing powers in the Bible are?

2080
02:31:31,760 --> 02:31:35,639
Like what authority do the apostles have
that like lives on? Like what

2081
02:31:35,680 --> 02:31:37,799
does it mean to binding? By
the way, if this, if this,

2082
02:31:37,959 --> 02:31:41,799
if my phone dies, it's because
the battery. It's not I'm not

2083
02:31:41,920 --> 02:31:45,040
like leaving in rage quit or something
like that. So it's just my battery

2084
02:31:45,079 --> 02:31:48,120
is about to die on my phone. Oh okay, yeah, So what

2085
02:31:48,360 --> 02:31:54,479
Protestants would all agree on is that
the authority the apostles had is not necessarily

2086
02:31:54,600 --> 02:31:58,520
the same exact authority as the authority
of the church generally the more apostology did

2087
02:31:58,600 --> 02:32:05,040
appso succession traditions would say the power
of the apostles lives on in the structures

2088
02:32:05,040 --> 02:32:09,920
of the church day and bishops and
stuff, and more Protestants like Reformed Protestants

2089
02:32:09,959 --> 02:32:16,920
would say the authority of apostles lives
on in the Holy Scriptures. I think

2090
02:32:16,959 --> 02:32:24,600
we would agree that binding and loosing, that the powers that the apostles had,

2091
02:32:24,680 --> 02:32:26,479
for the most part are passed on
to the successors. And so you

2092
02:32:26,639 --> 02:32:31,600
do see in the early Church eventually
the confession of sins in an auricular sense.

2093
02:32:33,120 --> 02:32:35,159
I think maybe in the first few
centuries there might have been more of

2094
02:32:35,200 --> 02:32:39,000
a general confession, But we do
see in the New Testament people coming to

2095
02:32:39,079 --> 02:32:43,319
John the Baptists to confess their sins
to him. In orld can't why can't

2096
02:32:43,399 --> 02:32:48,360
you know, your average modern Orthodox
bishop like faith heal people and raise people

2097
02:32:48,360 --> 02:32:50,479
from the dead like the apostles were
doing. Well, I was hold on,

2098
02:32:50,600 --> 02:32:54,399
I wasn't finished with what I was
going to say. So what I

2099
02:32:54,479 --> 02:32:56,440
was going to say is that not
every single action that the apostles did,

2100
02:32:56,520 --> 02:33:00,959
we don't believe that's passed on to
every bishop. So, for example,

2101
02:33:01,000 --> 02:33:05,000
the apostles had the ability to orally
and in a written way teach the and

2102
02:33:05,120 --> 02:33:07,840
reveal the word of God. Right, so they were kind of like the

2103
02:33:07,920 --> 02:33:11,840
same office of a prophet in the
Old Testament, that what they taught or

2104
02:33:11,879 --> 02:33:16,200
what they wrote is essentially divine revelation. And so Paul, for example,

2105
02:33:16,639 --> 02:33:20,159
equates his oral teaching at ephesis because
he taught in Ephesis three for three years.

2106
02:33:20,200 --> 02:33:22,399
And if you read the Book of
Acts, and then when he writes

2107
02:33:22,440 --> 02:33:26,120
to Timothy, he says, all
the things that you heard from me in

2108
02:33:26,200 --> 02:33:30,840
the presence of many witnesses, pass
on that whole deposit, right, which

2109
02:33:30,920 --> 02:33:35,200
is the deposit of faith oral and
written Allah second Thessalonians. So in our

2110
02:33:35,280 --> 02:33:41,000
view, deposit of the faith is
sealed and complete. When the apostles are

2111
02:33:41,000 --> 02:33:45,760
gone, there's no new revelations.
There's no new public divine revelation or something

2112
02:33:45,840 --> 02:33:52,239
like that. And not every characteristic
of the Apostolic era is passed on to

2113
02:33:52,360 --> 02:33:56,200
every single success or the apostle.
So I don't believe that we need,

2114
02:33:56,280 --> 02:34:00,239
for example, in every situation,
the miraculous use of tongues. Could it

2115
02:34:00,319 --> 02:34:05,040
be wanted to grant the miraculous experience
of tongues at some place in church history,

2116
02:34:05,479 --> 02:34:09,799
but it's not as needed as it
was and acts to to demonstrate the

2117
02:34:11,440 --> 02:34:13,319
power and authority of the Apostles as
a successor. So one of the reasons

2118
02:34:13,360 --> 02:34:20,760
that Pentecost happens is as the demonstration
of the fulfillment of the feasts of Pentecost

2119
02:34:20,879 --> 02:34:24,559
and of the fulfillment of the prophecy
of Joel. Right, So Jews are

2120
02:34:24,559 --> 02:34:28,879
supposed to recognize that when the miracle
Pentecost happens and everybody speaking miraculously in these

2121
02:34:28,920 --> 02:34:33,040
tongues and everybody hearing the same language, that's a manifestation the fulfillment of specific

2122
02:34:33,120 --> 02:34:37,239
divine prophecies and redemptive history. So
it's not something that has to characterize every

2123
02:34:37,280 --> 02:34:41,959
age of the Church. So I'm
just basically agreeing. I think we would

2124
02:34:41,959 --> 02:34:45,760
agree that we're both cessationists in the
sense that when the apostles were gone,

2125
02:34:45,760 --> 02:34:48,360
there's no new public divine revelations.
We agree with that. It's just simply

2126
02:34:48,399 --> 02:34:54,200
that we don't think that scripture alone
has the ability to preach the Word of

2127
02:34:54,280 --> 02:34:58,600
God. There's also orld tradition that's
passed on all right, anything else you

2128
02:34:58,639 --> 02:35:01,280
want to say anything is when I
want us to cover. Yeah. The

2129
02:35:01,360 --> 02:35:05,440
last thing was, do you think
the lack of belief in like the binding

2130
02:35:05,520 --> 02:35:09,680
and losing has caused like endless schism
in the Protestant world because everyone's kind of

2131
02:35:09,079 --> 02:35:13,760
their own authority, And so I
think if you're looking at the Protestant Reformation,

2132
02:35:13,879 --> 02:35:16,959
you can kind of see the trajectory
back in the fifteen hundred. It's

2133
02:35:16,959 --> 02:35:18,799
like, if you're not really bound
by anything, that's why we end up

2134
02:35:18,799 --> 02:35:24,200
seeing just this explosion of different denominations, and it continues to this day.

2135
02:35:26,000 --> 02:35:30,079
So do you think that that doctrine
of not having that view of the church

2136
02:35:30,280 --> 02:35:37,079
can contribute to all this confusion and
just radically different theologies throughout the Protestant Protestantism?

2137
02:35:37,760 --> 02:35:41,799
Sure? Yeah. So a lot
of misconceptions that Catholics and Orthodox have

2138
02:35:41,959 --> 02:35:46,399
about Protestant splits is that they call
those splits schisms. Because Protestantism does not

2139
02:35:46,639 --> 02:35:52,280
have this one true Church model or
Apostolic succession. A split of a Protestant

2140
02:35:52,280 --> 02:35:56,680
nominations are not nearly as much of
a big deal, and they will still

2141
02:35:56,719 --> 02:35:58,799
affirm each other as part of the
one True Church. So it's not as

2142
02:36:00,000 --> 02:36:03,920
factly that much of a schism.
For example, that's why we can take

2143
02:36:03,959 --> 02:36:07,840
communion at each other's churches. I
know there's some very very conservative Lutheran sects

2144
02:36:07,920 --> 02:36:11,239
that will only let you take communion
if you're one of them. But just

2145
02:36:11,360 --> 02:36:16,719
because we there's organizational separations, it
does not mean that there is schism.

2146
02:36:16,920 --> 02:36:24,920
Like there's really a handful of different
Protestant traditions. It's not like there's forty

2147
02:36:24,040 --> 02:36:28,840
thousand denominations there. It's like that
number comes from the fact that every single

2148
02:36:30,239 --> 02:36:35,000
independent, non denominational churches is considered
its own denomination. I'd say in many

2149
02:36:35,040 --> 02:36:37,639
ways, Protestants are more united than
the Orthodox have been, given that the

2150
02:36:37,719 --> 02:36:43,040
Orthodox often split down ethnic lines,
like a lot of Orthodox church in America,

2151
02:36:43,440 --> 02:36:46,159
it's like they do the opposite of
evangelism. If you try to go

2152
02:36:46,200 --> 02:36:48,000
there and you're not part of their
ethnicity, they're like, yeah, we

2153
02:36:48,000 --> 02:36:52,520
don't want you here. Well,
I mean that's have you looked at the

2154
02:36:52,639 --> 02:36:56,840
history of Protestantism in America and hasn't
exactly like been the most inclusive and like,

2155
02:36:56,879 --> 02:37:01,079
I don't think that's a good example
to say that that is to Orthodoxy,

2156
02:37:01,399 --> 02:37:05,120
Like there's so many I mean,
I've experienced both. Yeah, I

2157
02:37:05,159 --> 02:37:09,200
agree, it's like that's not a
unique thing to Orthodoxy because every church is

2158
02:37:09,239 --> 02:37:13,600
made up of people, And yeah, I think that's a very superficial thing

2159
02:37:13,680 --> 02:37:16,760
to say that, oh it's just
ethnic, Like if someone a Russian verson

2160
02:37:16,799 --> 02:37:20,799
maybe going to a very American like
Evangelical church is going to feel like an

2161
02:37:20,840 --> 02:37:26,559
outsider. So yeah, I mean, the Orthodox Church specifically rejects ethnophiltism as

2162
02:37:26,600 --> 02:37:30,680
a theology, and this would be
to replace the nation state or the ethnos

2163
02:37:30,799 --> 02:37:33,680
with the universality of the church.
So while it is true that some ethnic

2164
02:37:33,799 --> 02:37:39,239
parishes might be somewhat insular, I
think the experience of most of the people

2165
02:37:39,280 --> 02:37:43,120
in the Orthodox world is that when
you visit a lot of different American Orthodox

2166
02:37:43,200 --> 02:37:46,719
churches, you find a tremendous amount
of diverse people in different groups. My

2167
02:37:46,959 --> 02:37:50,639
church has black people, it has
Russian people, it has Hispanic people,

2168
02:37:52,200 --> 02:37:54,799
and a lot of people you know, have experienced that in a lot of

2169
02:37:54,840 --> 02:38:00,280
different groups, in a lot of
different Orthodox circles. So you know,

2170
02:38:00,360 --> 02:38:03,399
the history of the Protestant Church is
that it immediately was sort of subservient to

2171
02:38:03,799 --> 02:38:07,840
the German princes. For example,
when Luther did his Reformation, there was

2172
02:38:07,840 --> 02:38:11,600
an immediate sort of stepping in of
the German princes who actually saw a lot

2173
02:38:11,680 --> 02:38:16,120
of use in the Lutheran movement as
a bulwark against the papacy and the sort

2174
02:38:16,120 --> 02:38:20,120
of geopolitical pretensions of the pope at
that time in Europe. So there was

2175
02:38:20,159 --> 02:38:24,479
an immediate sort of cesero Papism that
occurred in the Protestant churches. I will

2176
02:38:24,520 --> 02:38:31,200
give Calvinists credit for at least they
wanted in the time of the Westminster Confession

2177
02:38:31,360 --> 02:38:35,079
to eradicate what they called Erastianism,
which is the idea that the king or

2178
02:38:35,159 --> 02:38:39,120
whoever has a control of the church
or can say what's going on in the

2179
02:38:39,200 --> 02:38:43,559
church. And they often critique the
Anglicans precisely for being Erastians. And we

2180
02:38:43,600 --> 02:38:48,680
would agree as Orthodox that Erascianism is
incorrect. And in fact, if you

2181
02:38:48,760 --> 02:38:52,639
look at a lot of the promotions
of heresies, a lot of times were

2182
02:38:52,639 --> 02:38:54,319
emperors. There was a lot of
heterodox emperors that were trying to change the

2183
02:38:54,399 --> 02:38:58,159
church to teach arianism. There were
emperors that were trying to get the church

2184
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:05,200
to become iconical life. And the
church actually survived those and rejected the imperial

2185
02:39:05,440 --> 02:39:07,959
uh you know, attempts to change
the doctrine. So I would say that,

2186
02:39:09,159 --> 02:39:13,479
you know, in reality, every
church is susceptible to the temptation of

2187
02:39:15,000 --> 02:39:20,079
ethnophiolitism or something like that. But
I don't think that you could deduce from

2188
02:39:20,159 --> 02:39:24,680
that that the Orthodox Church is more
divided and more split than the Protestant Church,

2189
02:39:24,719 --> 02:39:28,879
because they that came off from I
wasn't trying to say the Orthodox Church

2190
02:39:28,959 --> 02:39:31,799
is more divided and it is supervisial. I know it doesn't really represent Orthodoxy.

2191
02:39:33,200 --> 02:39:37,399
I'm just saying that it's the fact
that there are these different Protestant denominations

2192
02:39:37,440 --> 02:39:41,239
does not mean that there are schisms
in the sense that skism me like for

2193
02:39:41,440 --> 02:39:46,120
Orthodox schism means you're excommunicating each other. For Protestants, most of the time,

2194
02:39:46,360 --> 02:39:50,000
when there's a denomination split or new
denomination forms, it's usually more of

2195
02:39:50,040 --> 02:39:54,239
a reorganization than a schism. It's
usually not a schism at all. Well,

2196
02:39:54,239 --> 02:39:58,600
actually, for us, skism doesn't
even necessarily imply an immediate excommunication.

2197
02:39:58,719 --> 02:40:03,399
I mean there might be a schism, that's schism is a severance in brotherly

2198
02:40:03,479 --> 02:40:07,120
love, right, So you might
have the same theology, but the group

2199
02:40:07,159 --> 02:40:09,440
says we don't want to be in
communion with with with you. So for

2200
02:40:09,600 --> 02:40:15,360
us, schism is actually necessarily tied
to communion, and communion is defined in

2201
02:40:15,479 --> 02:40:20,639
terms of canon, canon law,
canonicity, and who's in communion canonically.

2202
02:40:20,239 --> 02:40:24,600
So the canonical structure of the Orthodox
Church is another indicator too, by the

2203
02:40:24,639 --> 02:40:26,200
way, that we're the successor to
the Church of the first thousand years.

2204
02:40:26,520 --> 02:40:31,639
Every one of the ecumenical councils produces
canons, which are basically church law.

2205
02:40:31,120 --> 02:40:37,399
Church law has continued to govern the
Orthodox Church ecclesiolastic, ecclesiastically, and if

2206
02:40:37,399 --> 02:40:39,120
you look at the history of the
Protestant Church, there isn't church law,

2207
02:40:39,159 --> 02:40:43,760
there aren't canons. They don't operate
that way. And so I would just

2208
02:40:43,760 --> 02:40:46,959
say that this is another indicator that
we're the same church or the first seven

2209
02:40:48,079 --> 02:40:50,840
eight councils. All right, yeah, I see what you're saying. I

2210
02:40:50,879 --> 02:40:54,440
guess we're Protestants because it's tied to
communion. We Protestants, we have open

2211
02:40:54,479 --> 02:40:58,120
communion. Except for Lutherans, we
have open communion. I can go to

2212
02:40:58,239 --> 02:41:03,680
any Presbyteria in church, even if
it's not my denomination. I've taken community

2213
02:41:03,719 --> 02:41:07,479
at PCA churches, OPC churches.
I can take community at any Presbyterian church.

2214
02:41:07,479 --> 02:41:11,680
I could take communion at any Anglican
Episcopalian church. I can can take

2215
02:41:11,719 --> 02:41:16,680
community at any Baptist church. So
we're different organizations, but we are still

2216
02:41:16,760 --> 02:41:20,079
we still recognize each other as the
one churchurch. Theoretically, we would let

2217
02:41:20,120 --> 02:41:22,879
an orthodox person take communion at our
church, just your Your church wouldn't let

2218
02:41:22,920 --> 02:41:28,600
you do that, obviously, but
you're welcome to say community if your church

2219
02:41:28,719 --> 02:41:31,639
changes its mind, which it won't. But well, I mean, we

2220
02:41:31,719 --> 02:41:35,840
believe in the real presence in the
sense of it really is body, blood,

2221
02:41:35,840 --> 02:41:39,959
soul, and uncreated energy of Christ. And so you know that's a

2222
02:41:41,040 --> 02:41:45,319
angle Catholics, this would probably definitely
let you take communion there. But we

2223
02:41:45,639 --> 02:41:50,159
also have canonical limitations on who we
communion. We don't want to community that

2224
02:41:50,280 --> 02:41:54,280
we don't want to commune with people
that have heterodox theology because it's a I

2225
02:41:54,399 --> 02:41:56,719
know, I'm saying your church wouldn't
allow you to commune with us, but

2226
02:41:56,879 --> 02:41:58,840
we would allow We would allow you
if you want to. Well, that

2227
02:41:58,879 --> 02:42:01,079
doesn't mean that does It's doesn't prove
or disprove anything. It just means that

2228
02:42:01,079 --> 02:42:05,399
you have a different policy. So
it doesn't mean that you're mean that all

2229
02:42:05,559 --> 02:42:07,520
sayings that Protestants, the fact that
there's a lot of Protestant denominations does not

2230
02:42:07,639 --> 02:42:13,360
mean Protestants have like endless schism because
we are still in communion with each other.

2231
02:42:13,840 --> 02:42:16,479
Well, but that communion is not
a communion other like. So,

2232
02:42:16,959 --> 02:42:22,520
so I can have completely different theology
about you know. I mean a Baptist

2233
02:42:22,559 --> 02:42:24,440
thinks that it's just a sign and
a symbol. Uh, And I can

2234
02:42:24,520 --> 02:42:28,600
find High Church Anglicans and Lutherans that
think that it really is the body of

2235
02:42:28,680 --> 02:42:31,799
Christ in some way. So just
because there's open, because we're not Donagius,

2236
02:42:31,840 --> 02:42:37,200
we believe it's God working through the
sacraments. So I believe Baptists really

2237
02:42:37,479 --> 02:42:39,399
receive the body and blood of Christ, even if they think they're just receiving

2238
02:42:39,520 --> 02:42:41,680
like, okay, so I don't
even have to believe in the real presence

2239
02:42:41,719 --> 02:42:46,680
and I still receive it if you're
receiving communion. Okay, I'm sorry,

2240
02:42:46,719 --> 02:42:48,600
I'm not trying to I just think
that makes no sense. I'm not trying

2241
02:42:48,600 --> 02:42:50,520
to be rude. I just I
don't see how that makes any sense.

2242
02:42:50,879 --> 02:42:54,440
Wait, so so you think,
let's say, like an Orthodox person is

2243
02:42:54,600 --> 02:42:58,200
personally unconvinced of the real presence.
Does that make the real presence void in

2244
02:42:58,280 --> 02:43:01,920
that case, Yeah, it becomes
a curse. Paul says that you eat

2245
02:43:03,000 --> 02:43:07,639
unworthily, even unto death. What
about So I'm assuming for you that's different

2246
02:43:07,680 --> 02:43:11,360
than someone who just doesn't understand it. What if someone's mistaken What if someone

2247
02:43:11,719 --> 02:43:15,719
mistakenly thinks it's as simple. Because
I've heard of a lot of individual Catholic

2248
02:43:15,719 --> 02:43:18,159
and Orthodox people thinking their church chieches
is just as simple. What about those

2249
02:43:18,200 --> 02:43:22,360
people? Yeah, I think that
heresy for us, as goes along with

2250
02:43:22,520 --> 02:43:26,120
the rest of our moral theology that
we were talking about earlier, is a

2251
02:43:26,200 --> 02:43:28,559
specific sin of will and obstinacy and
action. So, in other words,

2252
02:43:28,760 --> 02:43:33,479
it's not just being wrong. Heresy
requires that you willfully and in an obstinate

2253
02:43:33,559 --> 02:43:39,280
way defy what is the case?
So in the case of more, once

2254
02:43:39,319 --> 02:43:43,639
again, we believe in soligrassia,
so we believe that God's grace basically overrides

2255
02:43:43,680 --> 02:43:46,000
or our belief. So then that
applies to the sacrament. So that means

2256
02:43:46,040 --> 02:43:48,959
when a Baptist takes communion, the
Baptist is still receiving the body of blood

2257
02:43:50,000 --> 02:43:52,440
of Christ, even if they don't
believe that's what's happening. Okay, But

2258
02:43:54,200 --> 02:43:58,559
you can't have the body and blood
of Christ without the minister there to confect

2259
02:43:58,600 --> 02:44:01,719
the eucharst So we have a completely
different view. I mean, I mean,

2260
02:44:01,799 --> 02:44:05,520
can I have gram crackers and uh
and grape juice? And does it

2261
02:44:05,600 --> 02:44:09,079
become the body blood of Christ?
If I really believe that and I want

2262
02:44:09,120 --> 02:44:13,639
it to be. Well, the
what Martin Luther saw as the really what

2263
02:44:13,760 --> 02:44:16,600
makes the Christ Christ is like the
words of institution. And yes, it

2264
02:44:16,639 --> 02:44:20,120
doesn't need to be bread and wine
the words of institution. This is my

2265
02:44:20,239 --> 02:44:24,719
body given for you laid out what
what does it matter? What kind of

2266
02:44:24,760 --> 02:44:26,959
bread or can I? Can I
use any? Can I use cookies?

2267
02:44:28,840 --> 02:44:35,360
So I mean, so if I
use cookies in my basement, if I

2268
02:44:35,559 --> 02:44:37,319
could use gluten free bread, could
use rhyme. No, let's say it's

2269
02:44:37,319 --> 02:44:43,879
I want to use cookies and I
don't know grape juice. And because you

2270
02:44:43,959 --> 02:44:46,360
said that it has to do you
say it had to be wine. Baptists

2271
02:44:46,360 --> 02:44:50,520
don't use wine. They use they
use they use ocean spray. So you

2272
02:44:50,600 --> 02:44:52,639
think Jesus is there in the ocean
spray with the Baptists even though they don't

2273
02:44:52,680 --> 02:44:56,600
believe it. Well, then,
like I said, I don't believe Jesus

2274
02:44:56,600 --> 02:44:58,399
present in with an under the elements. I believe it's a spiritual reception.

2275
02:45:00,239 --> 02:45:03,079
Well that's not the traditional view of
the church fathers. So again, let's

2276
02:45:03,120 --> 02:45:05,239
just point out that it is a
departure from the first thousand years of view

2277
02:45:05,360 --> 02:45:11,360
because they believe you, yeah,
sure whatever. And it's like I respect,

2278
02:45:11,959 --> 02:45:13,840
yeah, yeah, sure whatever.
Okay, but you said yes,

2279
02:45:13,879 --> 02:45:18,799
sure whatever. At the end of
the day, I don't really the church

2280
02:45:18,840 --> 02:45:20,440
fathers, like I said, they're
not binding on me. Oh, but

2281
02:45:20,920 --> 02:45:26,520
you did appeal to them for the
cannon. Like I said, we're going

2282
02:45:26,559 --> 02:45:31,479
to go God word. So again, if I have the ocean spray and

2283
02:45:31,600 --> 02:45:33,399
I have the cookies, and I'm
in my basement and I say the words

2284
02:45:33,440 --> 02:45:39,079
of institution, is it the Lord's
Supper? No, because that's not the

2285
02:45:39,600 --> 02:45:41,639
true church is where the Word of
God is rightly preaching the sacrament. Well

2286
02:45:41,680 --> 02:45:48,200
what if I'm preaching from the Protestant
KJV down there in my basement. The

2287
02:45:48,760 --> 02:45:52,680
for a true church, it needs
to be like an assembly. Like so,

2288
02:45:52,879 --> 02:45:54,959
now you're just tacking on all these
things. Okay, So what if

2289
02:45:54,000 --> 02:45:56,600
I get, uh, you know, what if I wheel people out of

2290
02:45:56,639 --> 02:46:05,680
the mental institute down to my basement, I gotta say, I don't know.

2291
02:46:05,760 --> 02:46:07,360
In that case, it really does
not seem like it would be a

2292
02:46:07,479 --> 02:46:11,479
true church, right, just because
I can't tell exactly in what case this

2293
02:46:11,600 --> 02:46:15,159
is a true church, in what
case it's not. It's like the bear

2294
02:46:15,520 --> 02:46:20,719
we're the invisible church. What we're
the invisible church? Yeah, but like

2295
02:46:20,760 --> 02:46:22,639
I said, it's invisible, So
that means I can't know if it's a

2296
02:46:22,760 --> 02:46:26,280
part of it or not. Right, So it's like, yeah, theore

2297
02:46:26,399 --> 02:46:33,360
so it's the one true mental institute
asylum church with Ocean spring cookies. Well,

2298
02:46:33,440 --> 02:46:35,079
if you're talking about like this place
is a church, then you're talking

2299
02:46:35,079 --> 02:46:37,879
about the visible church. You're not
talking about the invisible church. You tell

2300
02:46:37,959 --> 02:46:41,440
me whether that's a church and whether
it's the Lord Supper or not. That's

2301
02:46:41,479 --> 02:46:45,120
what I'm asking you. I'd say, I'd say probably not. I would

2302
02:46:45,159 --> 02:46:48,959
say okay. But now you're adding
all the criteria to Now it gets more

2303
02:46:48,040 --> 02:46:52,920
complicated and it gets more qualified.
So what was originally sort of a general

2304
02:46:52,040 --> 02:46:56,799
idea of open communion and that now
it's getting really specific and qualified, and

2305
02:46:56,879 --> 02:47:00,799
you're you're tacking on a bunch of
other things. So it's not actually as

2306
02:47:00,920 --> 02:47:05,239
generic as it appealed to be.
It appeared to be. Well, it's

2307
02:47:05,360 --> 02:47:09,600
it's the same way we say that
fundamentally, you need to believe Jesus Lord,

2308
02:47:09,680 --> 02:47:11,760
believe that you'll be saved. But
then there's a lot of logical extensions

2309
02:47:11,799 --> 02:47:16,680
of that. So right the word
needs to be rightly preiing the sacraments need

2310
02:47:16,719 --> 02:47:20,000
to be rightly administered. There's a
lot of logical extensions. Well what's rightly

2311
02:47:20,079 --> 02:47:24,159
ministered? I mean again, why
is my basement, mental institute patient church

2312
02:47:24,319 --> 02:47:31,920
not the true church? I wasn't
rage quitting my My phone just died,

2313
02:47:33,000 --> 02:47:35,040
so you can see that it just
died out. So I told I said

2314
02:47:35,079 --> 02:47:39,440
it was going to die anyway.
That was a fun conversation. Hope hopefully

2315
02:47:39,479 --> 02:47:43,399
he's not mad or doesn't think I
was being mean or whatever. But uh,

2316
02:47:43,440 --> 02:47:46,799
you know, it's Calvinism. It's
Calvinists are in you know, hip

2317
02:47:46,879 --> 02:47:50,120
two heated discussions, and I notice
he's had a lot of debates on his

2318
02:47:50,239 --> 02:47:54,639
channel, so I don't think he
would be too offended at that. It's

2319
02:47:54,760 --> 02:47:56,719
like, you know, when it's
me, it's like, no matter what

2320
02:47:56,840 --> 02:47:58,639
I do, people are like,
oh, we got him. He's being

2321
02:47:58,680 --> 02:48:03,399
mean again. Anyway, I enjoyed
that conversation with the redeemed Zoomer. I

2322
02:48:03,440 --> 02:48:05,719
think he seems like a cool guy. So I don't have any qualms or

2323
02:48:05,719 --> 02:48:13,000
any personal complaints. We're going to
super Chats now because my battery died.

2324
02:48:13,920 --> 02:48:18,200
Vulture five dollars, Jay. I
enjoy your lectures, specifically the geopolitical stuff.

2325
02:48:18,280 --> 02:48:22,879
What was the process of making money
off of your work? Have you

2326
02:48:22,959 --> 02:48:26,719
ever done merch? So, you
know, I have a subscription service where

2327
02:48:26,760 --> 02:48:31,239
people subscribe to get my full talks
and lectures, so that's you know.

2328
02:48:31,319 --> 02:48:37,000
We have rock fin We sell books. I don't really have merch. We've

2329
02:48:37,040 --> 02:48:39,719
talked about maybe getting T shirts or
something. I don't know. I just

2330
02:48:39,760 --> 02:48:41,799
haven't got around to it. It
seems like a lot of hassle. I've

2331
02:48:41,840 --> 02:48:45,040
checked into it a couple of times. It just seems like a lot of

2332
02:48:45,079 --> 02:48:48,399
hassle for not a lot of turnover. So I'm not sure if I want

2333
02:48:48,440 --> 02:48:52,559
to, you know, continue to
try to sell mugs and T shirts,

2334
02:48:52,600 --> 02:48:54,360
but I don't know, maybe one
day. How long did it take for

2335
02:48:54,479 --> 02:48:58,879
me to make what I do into
a business? I blogged for about ten

2336
02:48:58,959 --> 02:49:03,520
years, and then I started doing
this full time about twenty fifteen. Then

2337
02:49:03,959 --> 02:49:07,879
three dollars jay. The Orthodox seems
to have a right view of the canon.

2338
02:49:07,079 --> 02:49:11,879
But how could Jesus hold Pharisees accountable
for scripture without the Old Testament having

2339
02:49:11,959 --> 02:49:18,319
an infallible list. So again,
the argument is not whether you can know

2340
02:49:18,600 --> 02:49:24,239
true from false without a public canon
or a church to make that decision.

2341
02:49:24,360 --> 02:49:28,879
But let's ferret out a few points
here. First of all, there was

2342
02:49:30,040 --> 02:49:33,600
an existing, visible, living authority
in the Old Testament. It wasn't every

2343
02:49:33,680 --> 02:49:37,920
Jew interpreting the scrolls as he saw
fit. There were rabbinical courts that were

2344
02:49:39,000 --> 02:49:41,239
set up, and as Jesus says
in Matthew twenty three, the scribes and

2345
02:49:41,280 --> 02:49:46,440
the Pharisees sit in the seat of
Moses. Also, there were living infallible

2346
02:49:46,479 --> 02:49:50,479
authorities in the Old Testament, in
the sense that when any prophet was preaching

2347
02:49:50,600 --> 02:49:54,120
or teaching, they had the authority
of God. So if you lived,

2348
02:49:54,399 --> 02:49:58,079
if you were blessed enough to live
in the time of Isaiah, then you

2349
02:49:58,159 --> 02:50:01,559
could have talked to Isaiah. It
would have been a great source for what's

2350
02:50:01,639 --> 02:50:07,799
true in false theology and what's the
right exposition of the Torah. So there

2351
02:50:07,920 --> 02:50:11,040
is a canonical you could say,
structure within Judaism at that time, and

2352
02:50:11,159 --> 02:50:18,639
that rabbinical synodal structure is actually what
the church adopted when in Acts fifteen you

2353
02:50:18,760 --> 02:50:22,239
see the apostles gathering together to do
a council in Acts fifteen, they're not

2354
02:50:22,879 --> 02:50:28,120
creating out of nowhere this idea.
They're actually modeling it on the way Israel

2355
02:50:28,319 --> 02:50:35,600
already operated. So the point is
that it's two different questions between the individual's

2356
02:50:35,760 --> 02:50:43,479
knowledge and certitude of what's true in
false versus the public historic attestation to what

2357
02:50:43,680 --> 02:50:46,319
the true and the right canon of
scripture is. So it's two different questions.

2358
02:50:46,840 --> 02:50:50,319
So yes, for example, let's
get I mean, the same thing

2359
02:50:50,399 --> 02:50:54,479
applies in the first, second,
third, fourth, fifth, sixth centuries

2360
02:50:54,479 --> 02:50:56,079
when there's not yet a full canon. So in other words, the Old

2361
02:50:56,120 --> 02:51:01,479
Testament person and the people let's say, and you know, second third,

2362
02:51:01,520 --> 02:51:05,360
fourth century Roman Empire, they're basically
in the same situation because there's not a

2363
02:51:05,520 --> 02:51:09,959
closed, official quote canon. And
yet how are people in the third,

2364
02:51:11,040 --> 02:51:13,559
fourth, fifth century knowing what the
church is? Where is the orthodox true

2365
02:51:13,639 --> 02:51:20,520
church? If you went to one
Apostolic see or another Apostolic c you might

2366
02:51:20,680 --> 02:51:26,600
find conflicting lists of books. So
it's never a question of the books themselves

2367
02:51:26,680 --> 02:51:31,559
are the final arbiter. It's a
question of who has the correct doctrine.

2368
02:51:31,440 --> 02:51:37,600
And that's why Arnas, in book
two of Against Heresies, he utilizes the

2369
02:51:37,719 --> 02:51:43,040
argumentation of apostolic succession is one of
the indicators. Right. He talks about

2370
02:51:43,040 --> 02:51:46,639
the tradition. This is a Aernas
book three, and he uses Rome as

2371
02:51:46,719 --> 02:51:54,319
the example. And so when this
question arose, for example, how are

2372
02:51:54,360 --> 02:52:01,120
we going to know what the true
church is? This is not organized by

2373
02:52:01,159 --> 02:52:11,559
books. It's kind of organized by
Here we go book two. This is

2374
02:52:11,600 --> 02:52:16,840
book three, chapter two, and
you see that Ernaus argues that this is

2375
02:52:16,879 --> 02:52:26,440
one eighty. By the way,
he's the Bishop of Leon. The heretics

2376
02:52:26,479 --> 02:52:30,760
follow neither scripture nor tradition, and
so he cites a bunch of gnostics and

2377
02:52:30,840 --> 02:52:35,079
he talks about how they don't follow
the succession of the apostles in the various

2378
02:52:35,120 --> 02:52:45,920
seas in book three, let's go
to the next section. The heretics don't

2379
02:52:45,920 --> 02:52:48,920
follow tradition, and they also don't
follow the succession of the bishops. So

2380
02:52:50,040 --> 02:52:56,799
you'll notice that apostolic succession and according
to eRNAs was common in and this is

2381
02:52:56,840 --> 02:53:01,440
one of the indicators by which you
would know it true false church. Right,

2382
02:53:01,840 --> 02:53:07,040
So the very things that he was
listing are the very that he disagrees

2383
02:53:07,079 --> 02:53:09,040
with are the very things used in
the second century to indicate the true and

2384
02:53:09,079 --> 02:53:15,840
the false Church. So, in
other words, it's not ultimately going to

2385
02:53:15,879 --> 02:53:20,360
be decided between a definitive decision on
the canon, because even though we have

2386
02:53:20,440 --> 02:53:26,159
a definitive decision on the canon,
many people don't accept the Orthodox Church's decision

2387
02:53:26,200 --> 02:53:28,200
on the canon. So they don't
accept Trolo, they don't accept the sub

2388
02:53:28,280 --> 02:53:33,479
naka Medical Council. And it's true
that you could come to know true and

2389
02:53:33,559 --> 02:53:37,719
false, but my point is different. My point is that there's nothing that

2390
02:53:37,879 --> 02:53:43,920
stops me as a Protestant from creating
my own canon because it's a fallible collection

2391
02:53:45,000 --> 02:53:50,879
of infallible books. So that's a
question of normativity. It's distinct from the

2392
02:53:52,000 --> 02:53:56,159
question of epistemic certitude. The two
relate to one another. But if we

2393
02:53:56,239 --> 02:54:01,120
all agree at the end of the
day, between Protestant or and Roman Catholic,

2394
02:54:01,799 --> 02:54:05,959
that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate
enlightener and decider, just appealing to

2395
02:54:07,040 --> 02:54:11,280
the Holy Spirit isn't really going to
solve any of the historical disputes and questions

2396
02:54:11,360 --> 02:54:13,920
because everybody believes that they're guided by
the Holy Spirit. So we've got to

2397
02:54:15,000 --> 02:54:22,079
have another way to adjudicate between which
group in history has the correct body and

2398
02:54:22,200 --> 02:54:26,879
tradition and transmission. And that cannot
be resolved without going and looking at what

2399
02:54:28,079 --> 02:54:33,079
these different church fathers and councils taught, and they don't teach Calvinism or Protestantism

2400
02:54:33,559 --> 02:54:43,799
in any stretch of the imagination.
Spawn spend three dollars, Hey, me

2401
02:54:43,840 --> 02:54:46,040
and Jay, I'm looking at Orthodoxy, and it seems if you have the

2402
02:54:46,079 --> 02:54:48,120
correct canon. He just sent the
same question twice. Real could have brown

2403
02:54:48,200 --> 02:54:52,479
five dollars fifty cents. Thank you
so much, Kristen. Ten dollars.

2404
02:54:52,639 --> 02:54:54,399
Is another excellent debate. Yeah,
well, I think we're just intending to

2405
02:54:54,440 --> 02:55:00,360
have a conversation and it kind of
and ended up being more debated. But

2406
02:55:00,520 --> 02:55:03,920
you know, sometimes as how that's
how it goes kind of a lot of

2407
02:55:03,959 --> 02:55:05,920
parallels to the debate that we had
with or the discussion made with Dale.

2408
02:55:07,760 --> 02:55:11,840
Dale ended up getting really mad,
so but that's relevant for this discussion if

2409
02:55:11,879 --> 02:55:15,760
you guys never saw it. By
the way, here is the link to

2410
02:55:16,079 --> 02:55:20,760
Jesus being damned in the Reform tradition. So I'll put the link right there

2411
02:55:20,159 --> 02:55:26,319
that that is the traditional Reformation teaching
that Jesus was damned, and you can

2412
02:55:26,639 --> 02:55:28,399
qualify it however you want. Still
seems to be a problem to me.

2413
02:55:30,079 --> 02:55:35,239
I do recommend, if you haven't
seen it, going and watching the discussion

2414
02:55:35,319 --> 02:55:41,079
with Dale, because doctor bo Branson
brought a lot of really important insights because

2415
02:55:41,120 --> 02:55:46,799
he's done a lot of scholarly research
into this topic in this domain. Let's

2416
02:55:46,799 --> 02:55:52,840
see. And so if you want
more of this type of a discussion that

2417
02:55:52,920 --> 02:56:16,079
we just had this debate right here
with Dale. So and a lot of

2418
02:56:16,200 --> 02:56:20,040
doctor Branson's insights on the Old Testament
and how it was structured in the Old

2419
02:56:20,079 --> 02:56:24,319
Testament will apply to your questions their
spin. I gotta have some water,

2420
02:56:24,399 --> 02:56:33,159
my throat is getting draw a lot
of talking. Bumble be, Blumblebee,

2421
02:56:33,239 --> 02:56:35,399
ten dollars, Thank you for doing
the debates with Protestants. Is extremely helpful.

2422
02:56:35,440 --> 02:56:39,280
It was instrumental in my decision to
leave Protestantism and become Orthodox. Thank

2423
02:56:39,319 --> 02:56:43,239
you, Blumblebee. Glad to hear
that Rodham three dollars and says nothing.

2424
02:56:43,319 --> 02:56:48,959
Remember guys, Look, it's that
time of the year when you need to

2425
02:56:48,680 --> 02:56:54,280
get based and chadpilled. And how
do you get based in chadpill? Will

2426
02:56:54,319 --> 02:56:56,000
you go over to chalk dot com
and use the promo code J fifty to

2427
02:56:56,079 --> 02:57:01,399
get fifty percent off all those excellent
products over chalk dot com. You've got

2428
02:57:01,479 --> 02:57:05,000
the tong Katale, the Tonkat one
hundred right there. Use the promo go

2429
02:57:05,360 --> 02:57:09,879
J fifty get fifty percent off.
You can buy them individually, but I

2430
02:57:09,959 --> 02:57:13,639
also recommend this Male Vitality Stack.
You're gonna enjoy that and you're not going

2431
02:57:13,719 --> 02:57:16,200
to be paying that amount. You're
gonna be paying fifty percent off using the

2432
02:57:16,239 --> 02:57:22,799
promo code J fifty. So get
a hold of that Tongkat lee that daily

2433
02:57:22,840 --> 02:57:26,079
and then asheville gone to right there
by going to chalk dot comcchoq dot com.

2434
02:57:26,239 --> 02:57:31,520
It's in the show description. I
will also be putting this in the

2435
02:57:31,600 --> 02:57:37,040
chat for you guys. People are
like, hey, do you even work

2436
02:57:37,120 --> 02:57:41,399
out, bro? Yes. In
fact, we've been going consistently to the

2437
02:57:41,520 --> 02:57:46,159
gym and it's, uh, it's
been pretty wild. I mean we've been

2438
02:57:46,280 --> 02:57:50,559
we've been upping how often about the
past the past month or so, Right,

2439
02:57:50,639 --> 02:57:54,000
We've been pretty consistent in our workouts, and uh, I'm really enjoying

2440
02:57:54,040 --> 02:57:58,000
it. And it's good to be
because where I used to live there wasn't

2441
02:57:58,000 --> 02:58:01,399
anything near me. But now we
have a gym, so that makes it

2442
02:58:01,440 --> 02:58:07,840
a lot easier obviously for you know, really putting the chalk stuff to the

2443
02:58:07,920 --> 02:58:11,559
test. And so this new product
is just out. This is the pre

2444
02:58:11,680 --> 02:58:16,319
workout that they got. That's it's
it's it's not out yet, but it's

2445
02:58:16,399 --> 02:58:18,600
coming in November, so it's gonna
ship soon. I'm looking forward to getting

2446
02:58:18,600 --> 02:58:22,079
it as a pre workout. It's
the chalk chad Mode. People are like,

2447
02:58:22,200 --> 02:58:24,760
is this real? Is this like
a meme? Well, it's utilizing

2448
02:58:24,760 --> 02:58:30,159
the chad meme. You see the
chad bro there, and yes it's real.

2449
02:58:30,280 --> 02:58:33,920
It's a real pre workout. So
you guys can test it out with

2450
02:58:33,120 --> 02:58:39,000
me. We're gonna check it out
when it arrives very soon. So utilize

2451
02:58:39,040 --> 02:58:46,719
the me the chad mode meme power
right there into your pre workout. Let's

2452
02:58:46,719 --> 02:58:50,959
see we get another super chat bizigan
to's five dollars. I'm thinking of starting

2453
02:58:50,000 --> 02:58:54,639
a political party. It will be
called the Retake Concept and Nople Party.

2454
02:58:54,680 --> 02:58:58,040
I think you're joking, right,
yeah, I don't. I don't hold

2455
02:58:58,040 --> 02:59:03,120
out much hope for like mainline in
politics, you know, and in our

2456
02:59:03,200 --> 02:59:05,000
view, you know, we don't
try to capture the political sphere first.

2457
02:59:05,680 --> 02:59:13,159
We you know, focus on the
paradigm first and then eventually that will lead

2458
02:59:13,239 --> 02:59:18,200
to the political sphere changing down the
road. You notice, like the you

2459
02:59:18,239 --> 02:59:22,200
know, in the Roman Empire,
it took three centuries where it was converted

2460
02:59:22,239 --> 02:59:30,399
and then it became Byzantium. So
we're not primarily focused on trying to retake

2461
02:59:30,559 --> 02:59:33,159
Byzantium or whatever. I mean.
Bartholemew is not going to be your friend.

2462
02:59:33,479 --> 02:59:37,959
So Bartholomey is not gonna have any
interest in helping the Canadian retake Constantinople

2463
02:59:39,079 --> 02:59:41,760
party. But thank you for that
super chat. And you know, if

2464
02:59:41,799 --> 02:59:46,040
people want to work in the domain
of politics, that's that's your calling.

2465
02:59:46,239 --> 02:59:48,680
That's you know, hey, go
for it. Man. I support you

2466
02:59:48,760 --> 02:59:52,799
guys that want to focus on that
if that's what you want to do.

2467
02:59:52,959 --> 02:59:54,719
I think there's certain dangers to that. So I would just be leery of

2468
02:59:54,799 --> 02:59:58,879
kind of making politics into an idol
if that's your approach. But we do

2469
03:00:00,079 --> 03:00:07,319
need people in all spheres, you
know, applying these principles. Let's see

2470
03:00:07,399 --> 03:00:09,760
who else what else? I want
to remind you guys to heading over to

2471
03:00:11,360 --> 03:00:16,280
our show sponsor also, which is
Grand Theft World, amazing weekly seven hour

2472
03:00:16,399 --> 03:00:22,000
podcast that dives super deep into geopolitics, Grand Theft World, right over here

2473
03:00:22,040 --> 03:00:24,799
at Rock Finn. Actually that's me. You can also subscribe to me on

2474
03:00:24,959 --> 03:00:30,719
Rock Fin. But our buddy Richard
Grove, whom we have the courses with,

2475
03:00:31,639 --> 03:00:37,680
he's over here on rock Fan right
there. You can subscribe to Richard

2476
03:00:39,000 --> 03:00:41,479
right there. I'm in a streaming
mode. I might do another stream today.

2477
03:00:41,479 --> 03:00:43,559
I don't know. I'm kind of
in just in this mode. I

2478
03:00:43,600 --> 03:00:48,600
mean, I'm hyped up. I've
been drinking tons of coffee. My phone

2479
03:00:48,680 --> 03:00:52,120
died. I would have kept doing
that conversation, but my phone died.

2480
03:00:52,120 --> 03:00:52,920
I got to go do something here
in a little bit. But we might

2481
03:00:52,959 --> 03:00:56,719
do another stream later. I don't
know what up to see what I feel

2482
03:00:56,799 --> 03:00:58,079
like, So I'm gonna have to
head out here in a second to do

2483
03:00:58,159 --> 03:01:03,559
something. But maybe I'll come back
later and do another type of stream.

2484
03:01:03,559 --> 03:01:05,040
I don't know what we'll do,
but head on over to Rock Finn.

2485
03:01:05,040 --> 03:01:09,159
I'm just get it to Rock Finn
and subscribe to Richard right there, Grand

2486
03:01:09,200 --> 03:01:13,319
Theft World again, our sister podcast
that goes deep into geopolitics. They get

2487
03:01:13,399 --> 03:01:16,719
really heavy. Richard and I are
plenty a new podcasts were coming probably do

2488
03:01:16,840 --> 03:01:22,159
pretty soon, going deep into history
with Burmas, So that'll be coming up

2489
03:01:22,200 --> 03:01:26,239
maybe in the near future. Also, you can get the courses that we

2490
03:01:26,360 --> 03:01:30,319
do, me and Richard. In
the show description, you'll see the link

2491
03:01:30,399 --> 03:01:35,120
there for the Autonomy marketplace where you
can purchase my philosophy course, which is

2492
03:01:35,360 --> 03:01:39,879
twelve courses on the history of Western
philosophy. Right there, you'll see that.

2493
03:01:39,040 --> 03:01:43,719
Right there, Kyle and rezuem Zoomer. You're saying, where are they?

2494
03:01:43,840 --> 03:01:46,520
They're linked in the title, So
guys, come on, go to

2495
03:01:46,600 --> 03:01:50,040
the title of the show. They're
tagged in the frickin' title. You can

2496
03:01:50,120 --> 03:01:58,120
follow them over there on their channels
Byzantios. Oh, we already did do

2497
03:01:58,239 --> 03:02:01,639
that one beat. Yeah, maybe
y'all do a funny goofy stream. I

2498
03:02:01,680 --> 03:02:05,200
don't know, we'll have to see
what the mood is. Uh, y'all

2499
03:02:05,239 --> 03:02:09,319
want to y'all want to do a
clown around stream tonight with cryptids and witches

2500
03:02:09,399 --> 03:02:15,079
and all that nonsense. That we
have a lot of fun riffing on I'm

2501
03:02:15,120 --> 03:02:20,719
not really I'm not really up yet
to do the movie stream. Those are

2502
03:02:20,799 --> 03:02:22,639
fun to riff on the movies,
but a lot of people tune out for

2503
03:02:22,760 --> 03:02:28,159
whatever reason, so I don't know. We're still going to do the movie

2504
03:02:28,200 --> 03:02:35,639
stream in the near future. Maybe
tomorrow night we'll see cyber Tracker, which

2505
03:02:35,639 --> 03:02:37,719
I thought would be fun. Don
the Dragon, Wilson. It looks like

2506
03:02:37,760 --> 03:02:39,680
a lot of fun. I love
riffing on the movies right because it's you

2507
03:02:39,760 --> 03:02:43,440
know, mystery science, the ador
riff tracks type stuff. But it seems

2508
03:02:43,479 --> 03:02:46,760
like people really enjoy riffing on the
TikTok cringe a lot more. Uh,

2509
03:02:46,959 --> 03:02:50,639
So we'll be doing both. We'll
do both for sure. Uh. Anyway,

2510
03:02:52,079 --> 03:02:54,879
thank you to Kyle and thank you
to redeem Zoomer. I hope everybody

2511
03:02:54,920 --> 03:02:58,440
had a good discussion. We'll come
back later on and see if we could

2512
03:02:58,440 --> 03:02:58,879
do another stream tonight. Everybody gond