What is Kracklack and Harvard Knocks listeners, I am Damp Valley coming at you without my co host Adam Fromwell Today. I am, however, excited to be speaking with one of my favorite writers of all time, Katie Heindel, who has been published pretty much everywhere and anywhere that you can think of. She has her own basketball newsletter, Basketball Feelings. Be sure to subscribe to that Basketball Feelings dot substack dot com, or just follow her on Twitter at whatev's wtev s. She is also a co host for the Dishes and Dimes podcast and the Basketball Podcast. Like I said, she's been published all over the place. Dime up Rocks is currently her main home, but she also has bylines at Basketball News, wrote for the Raptors themselves, Yahoo Sports, Rolling Stone Complex, all those great places. She's a fantastic writer, really knows how to evoke them ocean and get into the deeper tougher moralistic topics of the NBA, and we talk a lot about that. She published this contact tracing series about a month ago for Dime up Rocks, and I really wanted to get into it because it covered sort of three different areas of what's been going on with this NBA season, trying to put it in perspective. The links to those articles by the way, or in the description, so be sure to check them out. We also get into some raptors talk before I speak with her, though, and we already pushed this podcast back a few days because of some breaking news. We had more breaking news. The most unfortunate of breaking news, Jamal Murray suffered a torn acl in his left knee. He will miss the rest of this season because of the timing of it. We're in middle of April right now. The NBA's hoping to get back to a normal schedule next year. A twelve month recovery time would put him out for most of, if not all, of next season, and that's just it's a fucking shame. There's no other way to put it. He is only twenty four a c L injuries are not what they used to be. Guys can come back, they can perform at a high level. But just looking at the type of season he had after kind of you know, rough like ten or fifteen so games start to the season, he's just been absolutely fantastic for them, and he is so integral to what the Nuggets do and the bigger picture here this season and next beyond, it's it's it's hazy now due to this injury. The first and foremost, the chief concern is just that hopefully he gets better. Jamalma already posted on Instagram tweeted three emojis that's what we do now. And it seems like he's in you know, at least good spirits. But this is just you know, he's a tough guy too, and I think everyone knew that when they saw him sort of writhing on the floor in pain against the Warriors, they knew it was bad. You were hoping it wasn't the worst case scenario, and a torn acl is no longer the worst case scenario, but it's still pretty bad just having the stories about this guy. If you look at the there was the ESPN piece from Jackie McMullen, I think two years ago at this point, it is a while ago, just about the training he went through with with his dad. You should check that out. The anecdotes that get called from that are they should be the stuff of legend, but it seems that they're actually true, and so it just it sucks on a human level to see players go through this, you don't know if it could have been prevented. I saw people saying that Michaelaure should have had him in the game at that point because the Warriors were already in front by enough, and like that. That really doesn't seem like a thing. It shouldn't It shouldn't have been a thing. It's not even really worth discussing the It feels like there've been more injuries this season. I don't think that's been statistically proven, and that's something that Katie and I actually talk about later in the podcast. I think Jeff Stotts from In Street Clothes says that they're not technically up, so we don't need to attribute it to this schedule, although I doubt that something like that could could have helped. And we've seen Mark Cuban and Luca Dontech now come out and against the play in Tournament amid this trunk cadd schedule. The quickly on that the play tournament is whether you like it's fine if you if you dislike it and have an argument against it, whatever, that's like not the argument to make. It's this season in general. If you have a problem with those extra two or three games of the play in tournament. It's because that you're trunk aiding these seventy two games into such a small period of time, and that's taking the prevailing wear and tear on these players bodies. But on the Jamal Murray front, I hope he gets back to where he was. Knowing just the type of worker that he is, I fully believe that he'll come back and play it an all star caliber level. What this means for the Nuggets immediately is incredibly difficult. They still have Nicola Yokich can power the offense pretty much on his own, but they lose just so many elements in Jamal Murray's game that they can't come close to replacing in one player. You know, there's the maybe the biggest thing that they're just not going to replace is his synergy with Nicola Yokich. They're in year five together of their partnership, which at this point is more like a kinship. They are, and I wrote about this, they're they're hardwired to acting concert at this point. They torch defenses with their handoffs. The best defenses are going to suffer death by a thousand back cuts. And while Yokich knows where everyone on the floor is at all times, he sees more acutely aware of Murray's whereabouts than most. And it's not just knowing where Murray might be at a moment. He into it's where he's going, and Murray, in turn, has a unique grasp of where Yokich wants him to be. There's like this telecopathic knowledge where Yoki consents that Murray's in the corner when he's in traffic, just knows to throw it there. You can see some of this unfolding in real time where there's like almost a discourse. Maybe it's silent, they're hand gestures when they're communicating on offense. On other occasions, there's no pointing, no nodding, no college to the ball, no visceral form of communication. Murray just does it it being whatever the right decision might be, whether that's cutting, relocating away from the ball, coming to the ball, etc. It's really something that's amazing to watch. Watching those two is basketball at its most fun. And this just says nothing of their his skill set detached from Yokich. You could point to the solo minutes for Denver this season with either one of their stars on the floor, and they have not been great. I think there's a lot of early season noise in that some of the bench heavy units definitely blow that up a little bit. It might also just be more of a harbinger of how much Denver prefers them together. But just looking at what Murray can do, he is by far Denver's best off the dribble score or that's the person that they're going to trust the most to do that. He is taking nine point five pull up shot attempts per game this season. The next closest player on the team is Aaron Gordon right now at three point five, and then if you're looking for remain stay Wilbarton at three point one. Jamal Murray's hitting thirty nine point one percent of his off the dribble threes this year. By the way, among there are only four players who are taking as many of these threes per game. That's four and hitting at least thirty nine percent of those off the dribble threes. You have Jamal Murray, you have D'Angelo Russell in a limited example, still they play twenty five games, Stephen Curry, and Mike Conley. That's pretty good company to be in. The Other thing that I think we're you're going to notice is that so much of the offense can run through Yokich, and he's great at finding people, and if you can play off him, that's definitely a luxury. That element, that element will sort of remain. But I would argue, and I actually did argue this in an article of Bleacher Report that you know, looking at how the nets have been so banged up and even Lebron and Anthony Davis missing so much time simultaneously but also separately, the Murray Yoki partnership was probably the best one two punch in the league this season. You see it in crunch time. They're both pretty efficient there, and Murray is the by usage rate, the second most relied upon player in the clutch. And while Yo kiss shown that he's going to get you a from scratch bucket. And that's why he's so unique as a big in those situations, is you don't need to necessarily just defer to Murray. They do lose that element of their offense in crunch time. And look, Murray's slashing, his his shooting slashes are just absurd in the clutch this season fifty one, fifty seven and one hundred. He's fifty fifteen to fifteen at the foul line. So you and Yokich has been great too. He's hitting a monster percentage of his two is not so much of his three's eighteen twenty one at the foul line eighty eighty five point seven percent. Has seventeen assists in crunch time as well over the course of one hundred and eleven eleven minutes in the clutch you go, you can go to Michael Porter Junior there. But here's the other thing I've I've talked about how Michael Porter Junior's concession at this point is his role where he probably definitely wants more control over the offense and can take it, and wants more of those Trump scratched looks. It's just not something that he's necessarily or I don't even need to use the headge qualify. There's just not something that he's done. Jamal Murray among all Nuggets rotation players, let's call it. I'm just you know, I'm not going to throw Shack Harrison into this just because so much of his data is non Nuggets data. But fifty eight point two percent of his baskets are made, baskets are going unassisted. That's for a go to score that's relatively low, and that speaks to how the Nuggets play. It's also the highest on the team by a mile. Monte Morris is in second place forty seven point nine percent of his made baskets go unassisted. Yokich is third at forty two point seven percent. And then this gets me to Michael Porter Junior. To this point, again, this is a function of how the Nuggets want to use him, and it's probably been an adjustment on his part, but eighty percent of his baskets are coming on assists, and so if you're going to turn to him to be that from scratch score, you can envision it. Someone who's six ten can handle the ball and shoot over the top of anybody, and it's just been lethal this season on offense. You can envision it happening. But if you're gonna saddle him with more volume, you have to get ready for growing pains, and that's tough to navigate when you're trying to win a championship. You have Monte Morris to replace some of the playmaking. I don't think MPJ is going to give you much, if any of that. You also have a Kuno composo to do that. Neither of those two were just you know, Monte Morris is going to be He's a better defender than Murray, probably Murray. Still Murray is still improved on that end. Let's you know, let's go like two seasons. The past two seasons he's been he's been all right on defense, and I think in the bubble it's probably the best defense I've ever seen him play. Just the super physical and you're you know, you're still losing that. I would think by the time maybe you listen to this, the Nuggets were already interested in Austin Rivers, they should just go out and sign him. I think he gives you some of the defensive positionality where he can guard one through three a opposed to just being able to do ones and twos like Murray. I wouldn't call him a better defender than Murray, but just someone else who can handle the ball. Has shown that he can hit pull up threes in the past, though his numbers sort of fell off a cliff after a fairly good streak with the Knicks at the beginning of the season, he ultimately fell out of the rotation while he was struggling that just seems like a no brainer fit at this point. Aaron Gordon has improved as a passer a great deal. And you can look at the past two seasons, last year, all of which he spent with Orlando, and then most of this season so far in Orlando. I think the thing there, and this would hold true for probably anybody. It's just Murray's threat off the dribble. It will change the way that teams are going to guard you if there is someone else trying to facilitate the offense. And even you know, Monte Morrison, Focuno composit, we're gonna be able to do it in a more traditional way that's not necessarily Aaron Gordon's game. And he's shot overall better than normal from three point range this year, but he's still not that wing type guard type score where you necessarily get too scared of him going downhill, and so he's more of a I think when you look back at look back at his Orlando film and a lot of the stuff. You know, he threw some standstill passes, he threw some assists coming out of the pick and roll, but he did a lot of stuff just outside of the post. And yeah, you can you know you're set up to do that because you run stuff with Yokich and if you want to stagger there minutes more. But you're losing that North South playmaking element that you're not going to It's not going to be replaced them full from Monte Morris or for Kuno Compazo or Austin Rivers. That's not necessarily Yokich's game. And how much more can you ask this guy to do? He's easily I've received a lot of shit from Nuggets Twitter on this that I'm not convinced that he is just the far away MVP. He's definitely in my top two right now, and so there's a chance he there's a chance he might be one without Murray. If the Nuggets continue to excel, that's going to bolster his case too. And I'm not trying to look at Murray's injury through that. Lens Yokis is deserving MVP either way. It's just how we're you going to ask him to do with without Murray? And so you know now you're you're losing that pick and rollability. And Murray was in the seventy eight percentile of pick and roll scoring efficiency this year and it's always the most accurate shooter, but you've looked at this guy hit such difficult shots and crunch time late in the shot clock. You're just you're losing that bailout option. That's a really big deal. And you know Yokich has great chemistry with Will Barton, with Michael Porter Jr. It's just different with Jamal Murray, and like losing that connection for your team, it's something that's going to be very difficult, if not impossible, to overcome. What I think this means for Denver when you're looking at the title race, I would still put them in the top five of the Western Conference. To be honest, maybe you can make a case for Dallas or Portland over them. I'll listen to it. I probably won't agree with it. Portland would come closest to me, but you probably have to slingshot them down to fifth place. In the conversation where you have Utah, the Clippers, the Lakers, and the Phoenix Suns. In that discussion, the Nuggets are probably fifth. I wouldn't say all hope is lost, but the path to get out of the West just got a lot more difficult. And I also hate to look at it moving into next season. But if he's not going to play, they're still really talented, and maybe they're willing to spend you know, the mini mid level exception, and you can pick up a nice ball handler or playmaker that helps spell his apps. It just sucks because you have Michael Porter Junior, who is I don't I'll just make this clear with the usual disclaimer. I'm not worried about the team affording to keep this cord together. But the reality is is that they were going to make a decision based off this playoff run and the next one, probably because you have Michael Porter Junior, whose extensionalsable this summer, and then both he and Aaron Gordon are straighted, are slated. Excuse me. For free agency, Michael Porter Junior will be your strictesree agion. But in two twenty two will Barton if he declines his player if he picks up his player option, excuse me, he's also schedule for free as two twenty two. I think he's a fourteen point nine million dollars player option this season. I feel like he should probably decline that. By the way, it just feels like he could probably get similar annual money over a longer term, So that's just something else that then they have to figure out if he ups their timeline in that sense, I don't think they can afford to lose him because he's someone who's going to give you that secondary playmaking two. I would argue Michael Porter Junior, Monte Morris, and Will Barton are probably the three most important Nuggets who are impacted by Jamal Murray's absence. Maybe you put from from Coote Composo in there. Maybe you just assume that Yokis needs to be put up there a little bit. Maybe you really think that they're going to start milking Aaron Gordon's improved ball skills. I don't know, but that's just the you know, without seeing having seen them or play a game without Jamal Murray, that that would just be my read on the situation. We'll do a deeper dive into this moving forward to end this though, you look ahead and next season and now there's a chance that you lose that second playoff run to evaluate this core and that just becomes really problematic because it might be that, you know, you want to keep Gordon Michael Porter Junior, is you know, if he keeps playing like this, or if he plays even better in Murray's absence, that's gonna be a quick negotiation, whether it's in restricted free agency or extension talks. That'll be a max money player. And so just what do you do? You have Paul Millstap hitting free agency this summer. But just looking at the four player corps of Gordon Murray, Michael Porter Junior, and Yokich, I think any let's throw will Barton in it there? That five player corp was, Hey, we probably have the next two postseasons we to with at least four of these guys, depending on what happens with Barton's player option, which was fourteen point seven million. So I was off by two hundred k. Now you've you've lost that. You know these players are good, but how well do they fit you? Just don't You don't have that sample size now and what happens next year? You know, if you know, maybe Murray comes back just before the playoffs, how much can you base on what happens there? Are the Nuggets less likely to extend Michael Porter Junior. Now we're more likely because they want to build up that that good will. They're just tough long term decisions they have to make, and you can argue that two of their next title pushes are are compromised by this. I'm not ready to write them off. This team is still Nicole Yokahs only just turned twenty six. By the way, too, as people have noted, it's Aaron Gordon feels like he's been around forever. He is still only twenty five, and Michael Porter Junior is what is he's got to be twenty one. I'm actually gonna double check decks. I wanted to speak on Porter Junior's age. Weird that I don't know that off the top of my head. It's like this core is still really young and they have you know, they can wait this out. He's twenty two Michael Porter Jr. So so he'll turn twenty three in June. You have just so many of these guys on the right side of twenty seven. They'll be fine long term if they want to keep everybody around. But this was a team that I think you could have legitimately said they were either the favorite to come out of the West, or if you're like me, that has kind of been Unless you can tell me Lebron and a Dy won't be healthy because we can use the disclaimer of oh, full strength, Lakers are gonna steam roll everybody, as my co host likes to poke fun of me when I say that. So unless you're gonna tell me that Lebron and a d won't be on the court for the Lakers, I'm just going to assume that they have the best chance to come out. I need to see it to believe at this point. I think after that it was wide open to begin with. I have the Sons there. It was by the narrowest of margins with the Nuggets. They could have been right there with Murray if not there, and they certainly move out of that place right now. And this team was close. They made that all in play for Aaron Gordon, and it's maybe a semi all in play. They gave up real assets get him in RJ. Hampton and the pick they did. They compromised the guard defense a little bit by giving up Gary Harris, even though he's been in a rut for an offense for what feels like eternity. So it's this is tough, and it's it sucks, and I'm most I feel most for Jamal Murray. I assume that he will be fine. I expect him to be fine long term, it's going to be I don't want to say intriguing or interesting because I think in the back of my head at least that you're just gonna know, like we're missing out on this really special player amplifying a core that just made so much fucking sense at this point where this Western Conference playoff race, you know, the slog of this season, the the moral dilemma behind it. If so many games coming at you so fast amid what is still a pandemic and seeing could there be a rise in soft tissue injuries Again, We're gonna get to that very shortly. It's it's just knowing that this is what happened to this core where you're never going to see or not never, but you're not going to see the peak of the Nuggets at least this season and again probably not next season. It just sucks. And so here's till Jamal Murray making a full recovery. I think the Western Conference playoffs will still be super interesting. The Nuggets will be in the thick of it. We'll see what kind of unfolds from here. But look, let's get to talking a lot of stuff, interesting stuff with Katie Heinel just one of the best in the business. Follow her on Twitter again at whatev's wte vs. I really hope you enjoy this conversation. I hope you check out the full breadth of it because we cover a lot of what I think are really important topics and that contact tracing piece which is absolutely spectacular and you should absolutely sticking around for the Raptors and Kyle Lowry talk after that. She is based out of Toronto, I believe, so she has an intimate knowledge of the team there and they're headed in this. Really they've reached a pivot point. They kept Kyle Lowry at the trade deadline, but that just that hasn't necessarily simplified their future. Again, hope you enjoy this and here we go, Katie, thank you so much for coming on the Hardwood Knox podcast. How are you doing today? I'm doing all right. I'm doing all right, waiting through the local confusion around vaccines in Canada, but I'm hanging in. Thank you for having me. It's been such a loaded question to ask that at the beginning of every podcast, or it's how do you phrase it other than well, how do you've been relative to the world. That's like fifteen months or whatever it's been at this point. So I brought you on for many things, but one of the things I really want to talk to you about. And it's been almost a month at this point since you published the first part of the contact tracing series for Dime up Rocks? Do I pronounce that correctly? By the way, I never get up rocks right? Is that right? Yeah? You nailed it. I've fort like eight times with a bunch of the Dime writers that have come on here. But anyway, it was a fantastic series three parts, and it's been almost a month since you first published it. The one thing I wanted to ask you before getting into the different parts of it, and I think I'm kind of jumping to the end of it here, but how have you grappled with this season? Covering consuming a league that has for the most part operated in opposition of your own and many others? Is moral compass? Hmm? It's been hard, honestly, Like to be completely honest, Like before I thought about writing those pieces, I felt kind of like I was at an arm's length honestly since the season started, Just like watching the Way to me, I really do think the league did a one eighty from especially what we saw in the bubble and the care and thoughtfulness that they took in the restart and just like the measure of safety from that too this season and just sort of steamrolling ahead and hoping that everything would work. That that was like what it felt like, you know, and that didn't feel to me to what the NBA has done, Like I don't know, it's for a very long time for a league that kind of pride themselves on being so socially conscious and aware and like one step ahead of the curve. So I made it tough. And I think another doubly thing that made it tough was like the well one to Toronto. So I'm in Toronto. I am a Raptors fan, and the Raptors were displaced. But the Raptors had their own kind of mess of things at the beginning of the season with a Terrence Davis assault allegations and like the whole situation of them not cutting him and keeping him around. So I was really I just kind of felt torn, honestly between like the NBA and then the Raptors. I was just like, I don't know how I'm really gonna like follow or how much I want to follow basketball this season. I think I felt that obviously they didn't have the Raptors connection that you did. But you know, it's been a struggle because it feels hypo critical doing what I do, but I you rationalize it for me, and this is very a critical but it's like, this is how I make my living, like I have. The league is going to go on, I'm going to cover. But you kind of talked about that in your piece where it's just like there's no there's almost no culpability because there's so many different moving parts and people are deferring to everything else where. It's like, well, if they're deciding to play, I'm going to cover it is the rationalization that I'm making it. And there's also the aspect of, well, this was there should be concerned for the players, But then people have also said, well, this was collectively bargained between the players union. Has that made it more difficult to grapple with or is that even the latter part very much an element of, you know, we need to get away from the Maybe not entirely, but we're kidding ourselves. If the billionaires and all this don't have the leverage in those negotiations with the players union. It's tough, It's it's definitely like there's a lot of elements to it. And I don't mean that as like a point of like shifting. My response in deflecting blame is the way I think the league has been able to because of saying like, oh, this comes down to the team, or this comes out to the owners, or the players agreed to it. I mean, obviously, yes, the players agreed to push forward, but you have to consider, like with boys within like the Players Association, like does this come down like what is just like you know, a second year player compared to like Lebron James think about it, you know, like I think there's like a lot of discrepancy there. I think, yeah, I think absolutely there was pressure from owners who you know, when you look at revenues and I touched on this in the last piece, which was mostly about revenue and ethics of the NBA, but when you look at how much teams lost basically last season and the fact that they were mostly comfortable in losing it because going into this season there was the promise like we're going to get back to quote normal in some cases that's fans and arena. So you are looking at increase revenues, not on par with what they were in the previous season, but much better than they were last season. And I think like when you just have to look at the pressure that those owners took in wanting things to return, for them to say like, yeah, this is like a very expensive asset. That's the way that I think a out of them viewed their teams and like they have to get them back to work because they want the money to start rolling. And so yeah, I do think there was a lot of pressure, probably from all sides, but I think the league became quite adept at wielding that as just like these all these moving parts they could kind of that we're shifting that they could hide behind almost in real time, because you can deflect blame and just say, you know, we want to do what's best for our teams. And if the team has decide this is what they're doing and best for their livelihood, will support them. But like, it ultimately comes down to the NBA. And I think, while I don't want to oversimplify it, I do think and some of what you also touched upon, I think in parts one and two of this piece was the league has presented itself as something ethically better or a higher authority when it comes to morality than these other sports leagues specifically or just any business that you would consider. And so it's almost and it's just a business excuse. Is something would ask you about later with Kyle Lowry, But it's just a business slant. It seems to ring hollow when you are trying to and again, I know it's complex, but it seems to ring hollow when you've tried to present yourself as that higher authority on it and then to you know, I don't is it hide behind too strong a word to say where it's like with All Star making the donations to HBCUs. You guys, they could have made those donations anyway, and as you pointed out, like the HBCUs did not ask for that donation. And and so that's the other thing I've tried to grapple with is that, yes, there are these other leagues that did just go about their business, maybe a little bit more recklessly in the beginning or just even overall compared to now or or the peak of this in the past. But if you're the MBA and one, as you also pointed out, it's taking place indoors, unlike these other sports like baseball and football. For the most part, you have an obligation to be held to that higher standard if you want to be viewed as this progressive corporation. And I think this was another reminder that they're not at that point. And this goes back to the Hong Kong human rights issues. That was sort of another flashpoint moment for people who thought the MBA was on this pedestal when it came to these issues. Was they are going through default too. We are a business when it really starts to impact their wallet. Yeah, you can afford to be progressive as long as the revenue keep coming in and the way that you anticipated to right. And I think that's just like that even like you know, as people like you and I who like cover the NBA, we're not naive, we understand, we understand that part of it. But I guess it had not seemed so transparent to me in terms of like what the motives were of the league in that one eighty from when you look at even the league's response like this is what was so telling to me is like I covered and wrote a big story about their response to COVID in March and April last year, and like the amount of money that they raised internally, all like the player driven initiatives that they were starting, like being a real public health advocate where that was lacking at the time with the Trump administration of the States, so like they took it upon themselves. And I do not think that was like virtue signaling or for optics. I think that was genuinely like they were a huge organization and we have a lot of weight and communication and money behind us, Like what can we do? So to go from that to then just being like you know, you've got players testing positive, like this was a bigger problem. I think in December and January hopefully like and I hope they have kind of stemmed it, but that stretch of time was so bleak and so dark, and like moving the season up to December when you know the States were I guess it's hard to keep track of the waves, but I think at that point it was the second wave of infection rate it's really really rising, and Adam Silver going ahead and like bumping up the season because probably it just felt like if they knew. They knew that if they waited another month, it would be ethically impossible, optics and just like good conscience wise to continue ahead with the season, which was in effect like continuing ahead with normality, like at all costs. The what happened with All Star, I felt like was such an almost like hijacking of HBCUs and like what they said, like you know, when the mayor of Atlanta comes out and it's like we don't want you here, like we don't want this event. That's very clear to me where this host city stands, and that they weren't prepared for it. And then you know, I think there were a lot of off the record conversations I didn't get to put in the story, but speaking with experts who have studied other leagues, especially for the injuries story, and then who have kind of those people who have kind of pivoted to like covering COVID in other pro leagues, were very confused as to why the NBA, which was the league who started latest out of all the other major leagues, still didn't take any of the findings and learnings of the NFL of MLB and say like it didn't really work out so great for them, and the one thing they had going for them is like a lot of these are open air stadiums, but that they didn't take any of that information to heart seemingly and still carried on as if they were the kind of like it was like a man on the moon situation. They were taking the first steps into that environment. You know that no one before them had would like that, wasn't it at all the case? You? Yeah, And it seems like there could have been and I don't have a suggestion for it. It seems like there just could have been a better middle ground here that you know, the season was still happening. Do you know what that middle ground looks like? Is it's something even as like even I don't want to say the literal things because this is important, but in part two, when you're talking about the soft tissue injuries you mentioned, and there's also the ESPN piece done on this, the COVID protocol compliance officers or whatever they were called, like, maybe can that be a separate position from the jump as opposed to lapping that onto trainers who are probably already overworked. And the quote I think you singled out and was in that piece the ESPN piece was some of these one of the trainers that they haven't touched the player in like weeks or something, and so just yeah, just aspects like that feel like could have been easily addressed. But in the larger scheme of this, in talking with experts, was there, or even your own opinion, was there more of a middle ground for the NBA to straddle, because I do think one of the responses too, and I shared all your sentiments, let's say our sentiments here would be well to see you're basically suggesting the season was going to be canceled and that's just never was never going to happen, and or it had to go back in the bubble, and as you mentioned, the players didn't want to be in the bubble. And there's also the count of argument that our players safer when they're actively playing in the NBA because they are being tested, and we saw how many positive tests came back when they returned to their markets or being out of market. That was, you know, trying to come up with a middle ground. Personally, I couldn't figure out one because all that stuff is still swirling in my brain thinking about, you know, the peak of this time in the December January, like some of the more scarier parts of this whole thing. I mean there's I think it's so difficult to trace and probably for them to have made that decision or like not make a decision, because there are so many middle grounds, right, Like you had for the injury specific thing, you had these guys ramping up performance like nothing, basically from zero to one hundred. In some cases, you had everyone, like every player at a different level basically because you had some guys who hadn't played since the season stopped in March. You had some guys who played an extremely long time, like you know with the Lakers on the heat, who probably had no downtime, and like both of those things affect Like I was, I kind of knew this passively, but in speaking with experts and doctors and like muscle like like tissue like very like scientists that study like loading and tissue to such a specific degree that it was just like they were all so nervous and so scared, But we're also scared because they were kind of like, well, you know, the NBA has a lot of experts, and they have a lot of doctors, and we trust those doctors inherently, but the fact that they were all still pressing, like be careful, like this is unprecedented. We have nothing like this. There's no like, you know, bedrest studies. I think we're the closest thing I found in speaking with doctors when like an athlete is confined to bed for weeks at a time, months at a time. But that's the only thing that really compared. And so you kind of have the middle ground of that. You have the middle ground of like of COVID when like when when should they have started the season? When would I have been safe? Like it technically never was safe. It's probably should never have happened. You have the mental health aspect of players saying, yeah, they didn't want to go back to a bubble situation. It wasn't tenable maybe for them in the long term. I assume it would have cost a lot of money, and we don't have much money the bubble costs the NBA. So like, the best suggestions I had come across were either like and this was something I think was in play initially, Like talks initially were to do division bubbles or like East West bubbles, something like that. And I mean, at the end of the day it still has been there. There were a lot of injuries, and there were a lot of like very serious cases of COVID that maybe we don't even know the severity of them, you know what I mean, because like there are still players who haven't returned percent and these are guys in like peak physical health, right, so it's like a very they're kind of an anomaly in the general population in that sense. But there were just so many Basically, there was just so many overlapping terrible potentials and I'm glad that nothing, nothing extremely bad touchwood has happened, like out of those things, you know, like there are a lot of cases. There were a lot of cases, probably more than you'd want to see. There have been severe injuries this season, potentially we don't know yet, but potentially more than we would see in another season. But like the middle ground of all of those things, I guess that I kept coming back to is that the league just seemed to be crossing its fingers and like hoping, you know, like hoping for the best, because if you were going to actually take action and try and figure out like another way of approaching things, you either would have postponed, which seemed to be the case at first, but then the season was bumped up. I think due to revenue a lot like the project projection of revenue laws, or you do bubbles, or you just like figure out another way to proceed and continue. But I don't. I think once the league decided the season had to continue at all costs, they just sort of threw middle ground at the window. Was there when you were doing and speaking with people for the part two focusing on meat the injuries, I think the and you said we don't know for sure yet. The reflective response to you before reading that would be injuries are going to increase. Was there anything though that really surprised you and what you were finding? And you mentioned this already on the podcast and the piece. What I never gave consideration to personally was there was this idea that look at how much time these players have spent away from the game in general if they weren't in the bubble. I never gave thoughts. The aspect of their quality of offseason or away time when you're looking at training and prep was also so much lower. So it's not just the ramp up after being away from NBA game speed. It's a ramp up from just lower quality prep in general, and so in theory you would think that that severely heightens the risk of these injuries. M yeah. I mean it's like you had some guys who it also depended where they lived, right and what the state like laws were. You know, everyone was kind of scattered all across the country and in some cases like their gyms, they couldn't go to the gym, or they couldn't go to their like personal training facilities, they couldn't go to team facilities, and in some cases guys could. So it was just like a very unequal playing field in that sense from the start. You have. What I found and was reminded of when I was writing that story was that injuries have been just like steadily ticking up soft tissue injuries, like severe soft tissue injuries every season since like the nineties. And we know that because like pace has increased, just like the way the game is played now is so different that inevitably there's going to have to be a breaking point. And unfortunately, that breaking point just seems to be where are we, where do we all stand, and what's an acceptable amount of injury per season? Like I don't think there's like the freak injuries where if like someone kind of you know, lands on their leg, run like they break a bone or something like. Those are things that you know, and speaking to doctors, they're like, we can never account for those things. We can try and help them land better and kind of learn how to position themselves, but those freak accidents are always going to happen. But the soft tissue things are the things that they can guard against. And it was that specific shortened ramp up period that worried every doctor that I spoke to, and they were just like, you know, this is just going to get worse because the NBA, unlike a lot of other leagues that see, which makes sense to me that, like you know, in the NFL, in the MLB, a lot of injuries increase in training like in training camps and then at the beginning of the season as guys kind of get back into the swing of things basically, but with the NBA, it increases exponentially throughout the season, and that has to do with fatigue. There's obviously the problem in the NBA. I like, guys don't really get a lot of sleep in the regular season. It's it's enhanced incredibly in the postseason, you have all these factors like kind of compounding on the injury question. So what I found, I guess what was the most surprising thing was this scene. It happened so a like accelerated this season because because of the time constraints at the beginning of the season, because of the pandemic. This was just something that existed already. But my fear was like, is this like the worst breaking point that we're going to see And it seemed like that at the beginning of the season. Luckily things seem to have cooled off, but like it's going to be a very weird postseason. Most teams rosters are incredibly thin, Like there aren't I could think of maybe like four deep ish teams you know that like might have guys to sort of pad at the roster just for the sake of continuing play. So I guess at some point you're looking at, like what is the cost of this season in seasons to come right, whether that's guy's like physical health and injuries, whether that's guys physical health with COVID and the pandemic and how that's going to affect their livelihoods going forward in their careers and their personal lives, and like that's just something that I I came back to and every piece was just like, it feels like such a stupid risk to like rush ahead with this season for when you look at the longevity of like what we're like, what's the end goal here? And that's part of the most terrifying thing. And some of that might just be beyond the NBA's control. But as things improve with the pandemic, and hopefully they continue to improve in the US and just you know, in Canada obviously and then just across the globe, But what are the long term effects of having had COVID and what if your case was particularly more severe? Because players have said, you know, they are the earlier season examples where we looked at Russell Westbrook's performance or you know a lot of guys on the Wizards, Davis Bretons and I don't know if either of them said anything openly about it, but it just seemed something wasn't right and we know that they had COVID, and I think was a Fred van Fleet recently came out and said like he still had trouble getting up and down the floor at points, and is this something that's going to spill over to next season and just just beyond because there we haven't been far enough removed, Like this hasn't This still hasn't been a long term thing. It feels simultaneously like we've lived through you know that time has sped up and this has also lasted like two decades or something, but we don't. We just don't know what they'll potentially lingering a long term effects of this are, And that's you know, to think about. Are we going to give that enough consideration leading into next season where if something happens with a player or if they're if they look winded or don't have the same stamina, or if they're just not the same version of themselves, Like, is that going to be considered when evaluating these players are just the sport in general? Yeah, and I would hope so, But I don't think it will be because you look at like the average NBA career, it's such a short window anyway, right, and guys really need to capitalize on that time. Unfortunately, like the whole machine of it feels so cannibalistic at times, and then it feels even more so when you add these kinds of elements into it. Like you're right about Fred Vanvley. I think Pascal Siakam also, like they said, basically all the players for I don't know that we're kind of hitting at what they called conditioning wall at the same time, which that was the first I'd heard of like multiple guys on the same team who you could kind of trace to like being infected around the same time coming back and get affecting their play in a really in like the similar way. That was interesting to me because again, as you said, like this data is so dynamic, like it changes every day. We haven't it hasn't existed for long enough to like have these kinds of case studies yet, So I think retrospectively, like we'll look back at this season and we'll be able to trace those things. But like Jason Tatum said the same thing, like he felt super winded when he came back. He's extremely He's a very young player, you know, like all these I mean all these guys are young, and as we said before, they're in like peak physical health, and like these are things that are these are like the anomalies of COVID that you don't know how they'll affect like individual to individual, and you don't know like what the long term effects of that can be, whether that's on someone's lungs, they're they're like cardio vascular system, even like their brain chemistry. You know. I think the saddest example was like and something I didn't even know because I hadn't seen it as widely written about or talked about as I would have hoped. But like when like with Mo Bamba, the fact that he got sick last spring and there was still as of like a month ago, no timetable for his like regular return to play. You know, like, yes, of course we hope those are anomaly cases, but like when you think about them being anomalies, like there's still someone's life and it's still their career and their livelihood, So like how do you fit that into like contract negotiations, Like I don't know, Like I wonder if the MVPA has considered that going forward, because I wouldn't be surprised if like that's going to be the case with more players. Yeah, and Fred, Like let's say Fred van Fleet was hitting free agency this summer as a season as opposed to last off season after he had COVID, he still could be playing well, like is that going. Would that have factored into the way the Raptors are other teams would have pursued him, which is just that just seems like blatantly unfair. And so that's something yeah, and I don't think that's been given enough like coverage. I know people have thought about it, but you hope there's going to be like something put in place, like you said, from the players Union, to at least prevent that from happening. But there are you know, they're going to be. None of them spring to mind. That's not something I even gave consideration for. It popped on with you, but there might just be instances of that this year and Mobamba just long term, you know, he has his fourth seasons coming up after next year, at which point he hasn't proven really enough. But in normal circumstances, he would just be cantalizing to keep around or sign like is that going to impact interest in him if he just doesn't ever look right? And you know, is that because he's actually not a good, great whatever you want to say, an NBA player, or is it you know, was he really held back by COVID. That's just such a that's a mine field to navigate yeah, and it's like not something you could ever know, right, Like you you can't know now. You could actually never know, right unless like some unless testing gets to some point. But this probably won't be for years where you could kind of look at performance in that capacity and like compared against his peers. But it is it's a very weird and kind of gross and terrible feeling to navigate, especially when you look at the way that we talk, not you and I, but some people talk about players as like assets and like the inherent value of players and contracts and like that kind of language. Like I would just hope that this kind of slows that down because you can't this Like that's kind of my one hope in writing the series, and my one hope of this season, as terrible as it has been in a lot of ways, is that it makes sort of whether you're average fan or just anyone, slow down and just like take a second look and think like, like, was this necessary? Maybe maybe not. I was actually really surprised to hear that, like ratings are down across the board, because I don't think people really cared about basketball in the same way. Felt like a weird thing to be watching, but was it and like what's the long term cost and like what are the long term effects and how are maybe we like a little bit complicit in that you made. You made the segue for me and I know I'm working in reverses from three to two and one. Uh. You covered empathy a lot in the first part of this, and I think that was my favorite of the three installments that you did. Was there and I know you highlighted the exchange between after the Jacob Blake shooting between Fred Vanfleet and Michael Grange. Was that the flashbulb moment for you to sort of evaluate everything that was happening with the specifically the zoom and not being there on site interview players or next to them, or was there other stuff leading up to that that kind of informed just that you know, was there even a revelation revelatory moment or was this something that gradually came about to you that you started to notice and feel there were little ticks like here and there. I definitely noticed, like I mean, I yes, I quote know the raptors a little bit better and just in terms of like what it seems like their nuances are and interviews and they seem to be getting a little bit short and frustrated in certain aspects. But then you know, I, like a lot of other writers could like hop in different team scrums in a way that I couldn't before. And yeah, like I think it just takes like a small amount of empathy to be able to read someone in that situation. But I'd noticed that just like shorter answers or like media would be asking questions because you would have someone kind of pop in like late, and then they'd ask a question that had already been asked because they were there to hear it and no one was there to kind of like sometimes in like social situations, you really undervalue what like someone shooting you a look to basically be like you idiot or something. You know, like you don't get that over zoom from your peers right in media, So like those kinds of situations were happening quite frequently. Questions were just getting bolder. I noticed. It's just stuff that you were like, you wouldn't asked this to someone's face, I don't think, and if you did, you would be there and be able to read the room and maybe like you know, make a joke before or just talk about something like unrelated, just in like the sort of like social exchange, the normalcy if like social exchange, that was lost. So that all led to me thinking about it more. And then the exchange between Fred and Michael Grange happened, and that, I mean, that was just like a particularly loaded exchange. It was like a really loaded and difficult time, and I felt like players were getting asked again and again just to kind of dredge up trauma and be like how does this? You know? One of the questions I heard across the board, asked in like any kind of different way, was just like, well, how do you feel? It's like how do you think these guys feel? You know, like do you need to ask that? If they want to talk about that, it's one thing, maybe they'll bring it up, but like that was another loss of that situation. Is like in a normal situation, you could tell maybe if a guy started to talk about it, you could be like, well, like do you want to talk about that at all? But you can't really phrase that way on zoom. So I think unfortunately that exchange kind of encapsulated the feeling for me. But it was just a real like whoa, like we've hit like a different point in communication here, and it wasn't It probably wasn't a microcosm like it zoom. Fatigue is a real thing and does like affect our brains and like psychology in a way we're probably still learning about. That's very scary. But in the specific context of like sports media, which can be at the best of times, very what's the like transactional, you know, it just intensified all of those things even more. I've been asking people this and normally most of the time I might response will be you're an idiot, that's not something that's going to happen. But I've actually been surprised at how many people don't know who are closer to league and you know, cover the league more on site than I do. What elements of this are going to maybe stick long term, because I do think there's there are some teams that are very open about their access. Having dealt for a couple of years exclusively with teams in New York, I can confirm that neither one of those teams is one of them, and there might they might want to have that level of control over the access to their players, and it's easier to yeah, you can allow more people in zoom, but it's also kind of like easier to moderate, or you're just ensuring those Howard bet calls at the side ambles or whatever it is, those aren't happening, and you you know, maybe there's some writers you don't care about that taking place with your players, But pre pregame locker room availabilities, are Wen's media going to be fully back allowed or if allowed in the locker room? Do the post game sessions do those stick on zoom permanently? Have you given that any thought or do you see it as something some not all of it, but maybe some of the way that things are operating right now? Do you see any of that maybe sticking longer term post pandemic. I thought about it a lot, actually, because I mean I miss one of the things I think that hasn't tough this scene in covering basketball and like trying like finding intriguing features or like stories to write about player to player has been not having those kinds of side exchanges, you know, where you catch a guy just like a peri or post game and you just like get to have like kind of an unrelated conversation or like it's just like it's just a more human exchange, and for me, that's kind of how like that's how I best like to write stories, and I feel like that will always kind of inspire me to write the next thing. So yes, very selfishly I miss it for those reasons. I think some teams, to your point, have probably enjoyed the limited access and the gate keeping a little bit more. Toronto can be a bit closed with with like access and availability outside of you know, those kinds of opportunities you could create for yourself as media. And I think what I was surprised about that was in the bubble. I think in the bubble, a lot of teams you don't have time to do like one on one phone ers, But it was surprising to me that that didn't really happen. I had more of those over the summer, like over the off season, which was nice, but it's still quite different. And I think that there's also the question of gatekeeping with like certain beat writers and larger outlets, where like I've noticed this indifferent scrumbs, but like there's a order in which writers or reporters or media get called on and it doesn't always leave room enough for either bloggers or just like you know, independent journalists to kind of ask their questions. So it is inherently limiting the way that things are set up now. I don't know when it would be. I could see it from a PR's perspective to say, like when will that actually be safe and what are the logistics. I guess like it would be vaccine passports in some cases, like showing like proof of showing that like to get into a locker room again. But I know, like for media that's covered teams this year where media and fans have been allowed back, you know, they're either up in a gondola or kind of like seated somewhere else in the arena, and then they'll just have to watch the scrum on zoom even though they're physically in the building. I don't envy like PR teams trying to figure out the logistics of that. I think they're probably at this point just trying to be safe and keep it as streamlined as possible. I think players have gotten used to it to a degree, But I think players probably miss the interaction too. I mean, one of the more interesting things when I spoke to Son's PR was just how many of the players they said it just felt like they were looking in a mirror, because that was at the beginning when it was just one way video and they were just either looking at themselves or like a black screen and hearing this like disembodied voice ask them like a particularly bold question like that is a very weird thing to process, you know, like you can't just like hearing questions coming at you from the ether sort of. So I think they probably miss the exchange. I mean maybe some of them don't. Maybe some of them are like, I like this, it's my order and the availability is controlled, Yeah, I mean the aspect of not being able to attach a face in some instances like that, I like, we're podcasting right now audio, but the video makes it easier to just interact, so like I can understand that the thing that I gave some considerations with the beginning, and I asked, you know, writers, blog ors, whatever you want to call them that maybe wouldn't have normally been given access to game credentials. This does feel like it's a way to help them be a part of that process. And the other thing, And as someone who punted on his on site coverage a few years ago, at this point, mostly because I feel like an intrusion upon everyone's lives, and so I'm just not cut out for the like to go up to a player after the scrum. I'm also going to be too nervous in the middle of a scrum to ask a question maybe that's not related to what other people are asking. And it took me a few years to just realized that I couldn't do that in talking with other people. And I'm not someone who's hopping on these post gams scrumbs right now, and to make that clear, but there are other people that have felt more comfortable being able to ask questions in these settings, and I kind of like that empowerment for them. But I also understand and there's you know, I also understand, like what you're saying where a lot of your inspiration is going to come from one of those one on one interactions. And I don't know if there's a middle ground to it, and maybe you know is are we at the point where it's like, hey, if you can't handle doing the scrum or like the side amo, like that's on you at this point, like that's the job. I honestly don't know. That seems a little too insensitive, but it does feel like it's less gate keep before certain media types or at least more inviting for those who might not handle the you know, and you know this, it's it's cutthroat, it's competitive when it comes to getting interviews and stuff with these players. So I do like that aspect of this does feel a little bit or you know, maybe even a ton of bit more inclusive a little bit. Yeah, And I wonder how much of that could carry over, right because like you think on like maybe you're average post came now like for Toronto, say that's who I'm on with the most there could be there's like averaging around twenty five to thirty, which is more than you would see in person. And then if it's like a crazy game or like if it's a marquee game or if something happens, that number ticks up by about twenty as well, because you've got other people from out of market kind of hopping in. So I am curious just for like local media in the case that you mentioned, like bloggers or people who maybe hadn't been credential before and who this has been a great opportunity for. Will that carry over like old team pr be like, well we gave you access to this remote like experience. So what's to say like you're not legit enough to come in person like that? Can't you know what I mean? Like that wouldn't I don't think that would hold much weight. So hopefully it carries over for those people because I agree with you. I think it's like helped in some cases diminish the gatekeeping. But I am curious to see how things kind of how things work when if we can get back to it and what getting back to it is actually gonna gonna look like. Yeah, and that would be that seems like the rational way to look at it, Like Okay, if you you did this with us via zoom and it was fine, we can credential you. I doubt teams with operating that. And then it's also they have the built an excuse of well so we're going to allow more people in here after the pandemic, right yeah? Yeah? We also do you think it's important too based off what the way some people right or you know, if you're going to criticize a player, which that's a part of just the media landscape, I think there's for them, like you almost are what it's good to be there so that they can if they want to talk to you about it, or if someone's from the team wants to talk to you about it, though I guess they could schedule one on ones at that point, so there's I wouldn't have a perfect solution. It's just I see what's been lost, but I also see some stuff that maybe's potentially been gained here with the way it's currently set up. Do you think that there's a chance maybe there's an increase in empathy with the way the league is covered after all of this, though, because you mentioned sort of at the beginning of what we've and talking about now having to watch the you know, speaking of feeling intrusive, but like watching these players go through these moments of trauma, just I couldn't imagine having to process that or grieve so publicly. You would hope that it helps people understand and at least, at the very least approach topics with more caveats. Where you talk about the transactional nature of the league, I do as part of my job, and I do enjoy trade deadline season, but I've gotten into more of the I preface everything with these are players as lives. When we're talking about hypothetical trades. They're going to be moved around, and it's important that we consider that and then move into what I'm actually writing about. But I also don't feel like that's enough, and so I'm wondering if there's like something that you know, media can do, or if you feel like there's a better approach to how to cover this league so that that level of empathy isn't just lost because there's the imperson aspect of it, like you said reading the room, but there is also just a lack of empathy in general before this. Yeah, there definitely is. It's like one of the things I hate the most about like the industry that I've chosen to be in, but and as the most frustrating to see. I think, like you know, it depends who you read, I guess, and like who you follow. I think it's slowly changing. I really do feel that. I think if anything, like one of the silver linings of this season is going to be that sort of shift because it humanized players because they were in some cases going through what the rest of us were. I know some people will be like, well, no, they're millionaires, but it's like like this was kind of the great leveler right, like it could you know, COVID could happen to anyone and like a lot of them lost family members, like look at Karl Anthony Towns, Like that is one of the reasons why I was just like shocked at the callousness of the way that the league kind of conducted itself this season when you like, how did it how did it just like compartmentalize him, you know what I mean, and away from the way that it was handling itself and the business of basketball this season. That was really mind blowing to me. So I guess that's a bad don't do that, that's a bad example. It's a good example of what not to do. I mean, the trade deadline is a good example. Free agency assets, like when players are treated like assets and it's like salary matching versus like this is going to impact this player's life for the rest of their life. I recently, like I did a reported feature for spinsters Haley O'Shaughnessy and Jordan Lincoln's new podcast. I hope it's okay to plug another podcast on your podcast. It's definitely especially when they are also under the Blue Wire umbrella like we are. Oh yes, wonderful, But in that like I wanted to report that story because I'm kind of like, we don't know what happens in the twenty four to seventy two or however many hours between a player finding out they got traded, all the things that have to happen in their life to when they end up on the new team, whether that's from just like the logistics of moving themselves, moving their families, if they have families, what is it like to like learn entirely new schemes on the team that you're going to And just like do they ever mourn their life as they kind of viewed it to be? Go, Like, we all plan our lives to a certain degree, even though we know it's a dumb thing to do because anything could happen, but if you physically live in a place, you usually plan your life around that and like what the next five years can look like, And like in a lot of cases with players, they don't really they probably still do that, But what does it feel like to have that blown up kind of in an instant? You know? Is it a bit like yeah, like I just look with Norman. Norman Powell is a good example because when he got traded to the Blazers. Like in his first interview on court on the team, he just looks so lost and just like kind of just like bewildered, you know. And I think there's not enough sympathy given to players because this sense is like, well, you're you're still employed and you still have a huge contract, so like, you know, quit whining or like you don't get to be upset about your life ending in a certain way. But like that's just a lot of upset, especially this season. That's a lot of upset for players to deal with when maybe the of consistency they had was the team that they were playing for for however many years. So I guess I would just hope, like I think what you said is a wonderful example, just like if you're writing about it, to have like the caveat of like, yeah, these are people's lives. You know, they've been in this place for X amount of years. They'll move to the city, you know, and try and like here's how they'll kind of fit into the team, and maybe in more of like a dynamic way than just like here's how their salary fits in with the overall cap. You know, I think I think It's just like anytime you can write about a player and from your own human perspective and not just be like, oh, they're a robot and they do this kind of stuff on the floor and I love to see I would love to see them do that kind of stuff with this team. It's just like, there are human elements of their game too, if you just want to write about it from a specifically analytical standpoint, there are every player plays the way they do because they are kind of uniquely qualified to do that. I think just writing approaching it more from that angle, I don't know, for someone who does this a lot, I seem to have like not good tangible advice for how to do it. It's such a difficult, like almost incomprehensible issues attack will because it's you know, I understand that they're they're well compensated for many reasons, because they're so good at what they do and that their skill set is I'm so anomalous. They're also well compensated because I'm sure things like this do happen. At the same time, compensation is not you know, it's not going to supplant feeling, and uh, you know, for they're gonna be and first I'll listen to that Spinster's podcast. You brought up like some of the more extreme examples where it's like I can't remember his name now, wasn't Eaton Thomas, was it? Or he was talking to his GM yeah, and then was just traded? Uh, And so their their instances like that. Worth's more extreme, but even something like Norman Powell or Kyle Lowry where they knew something could happen or maybe it was going to happen, because I do now days. I think players are if they're good, they're more informed than we probably give them credit for. But that doesn't make it the transition uneasier because you still might not know where you're going like normal. Powell probably had probably had an idea it could be traded. Maybe he knew it was like a seventy five to ninety percent chance, probably didn't know it was Portland. That was something that caught everybody off guard. So it's it's important to remember stuff like that. And the other thing that's and I'm not this is just how it's impacted me, and I still feel like I'm part of the problem with the way that the league has covered I want to make that clear But two of the things that stood out where that I think there's a shift of is the Jamal Murray interview after he had that was the incredible performance. Was it against the jazz everything's learning together? But his interview, you know, was being shared. It went viral, but I saw more people commenting like, how is someone who is in his early twenties processing this in public? Like this is unfair? And so it was like complimenting and still sharing it, but acknowledging this dude is processing trauma publicly nationally. And the Paul George stuff, I do think in some instances like he deserves the meme ability that he's earned. But when stuff was happening in the bubble or even with Mantras, Harrold and the Clippers were imploding, it was like, okay, well, you know, Tres lost his grandma and Paul George was acknowledged that he was going through just some mental anxiety. And I think for people who've probably experienced those same feelings, particularly during the pandemic, I think it made them stop and think twice about maybe some of the jokes that they were about to make or the way it's being presented. And they were still the toxic nature of stuff out there and even on myself at the beginning of the pandemic was one of the flash of Aleman. So I end up deleting a tweet that like I called out for because it was just like I said, I'm still part of the problem. And I do feel like though there's a shift, just based on the way that, yes, things are still being shared, and part of that feels, you know, the Jamal Murray interview. Even watching that, if I can't go back and watch it now, I feel gross. But the fact that the discourse at least around it seems to have shifted a little bit, I do think is important. And I'm not saying it's great that we've gone through the social justice issues or the pandemic itself, but maybe it can at least help the way that these players are covered and give them that humanity that you've done, not just in this series, but just you do such a good job of covering in general, like in your you know, your newsletter and the series and a lot of the stuff that you've written. Well, thank you, But I like, I agree, I think there were a lot of opportunities for us all to be like, oh, we have been handling this rarely improperly because I think with players, like you look at them, you're like, yeah, well, a lot of them have had like media training since they were in college in some cases, or even high school in other cases, so it's like they're used to this. But it's like, does anyone ever really get used to, like, you know, having the microscopic lens kind of put on you, especially in moments that are just like so loaded, like what happened with Jamul Murray, like and Paul George speaking out after that after the fact, it's like, yeah, there was probably a lot of pressure that he didn't feel like he even could admit to having like anxiety in the bubble because people would probably be like, you're in this million dollar bubble for your safety, and so you can do your job, like quit complaining like you're at Disney World, you know what I mean. Like, but like it just doesn't hold any weight to me because it's like that particularly like was one of the most I can't think unless they're playing on like the Moon, I can't think of a more just like uniquely artificial experience. That was the sole purpose of it was for like normalcy for us the viewer to be like things are fine, we can continue, like we just have to do it in the in like the world's most artificial like you know, place on Earth. Basically like that to me kind of like with a some nation of the whole experience of like watching basketball in COVID. But I think like to just probably you have a you have a great example of it. It's just like if you think if you are like second guessing something, or if you're going to write something or like tweet something or even say something, and there's like a part in your gut that's like that's like a slight hesitation. I think just like listen to that hesitation, and like I know this is oversimplification and people have said this to me before, but I always just think about it. It's like what if you just were doing this kind of shit at your own job, Like what if you were just doing your job one day and someone came in and was like, you suck. You're not deserving of this salary, like because of the way you like made this photocopy or like reply to this email like slower than you should have. You know, like you're washed. I just think like, yeah, their jobs aren't like our jobs. I get that, but two would agree like they're also just trying. They're just trying to do what they're employed for most of the time, and there's like a lot more pressure on them even like not just like like psychologically, but like physically. There's no other job that's like you and I can go do our jobs and like be and our pajamas just like treat our bodies like trash, you know, and like we could still get it done. But like they can't do that. They are like forfeiting their like several years of their career if they do that. So there's a lot of pressure there. And I think money, like you can get paid all the money in the world to do something and it won't alleviate that kind of pressure I've seen. I feel like when media members get defensive, they talk about like what things are said to them on Twitter or in the comments section, and as someone who has a very frail ego, the scale and scope is just so different, like this is they can if players were ever to search their names on Twitter, it's twenty four seven, three sixty five. With the criticism, it's not just off of one performance that they had or in writer's case, one thing that they wrote, like the scale and scope is just so much difference, So that doesn't all wait and there should also this should never have been an issue. It should be easy to separate, you know, mocking players who were maybe you know, complaining about the menu at Disney, versus someone who's saying like, yeah, I was depressed or like dealing with anxiety or processing the death of my grandmother like that. That stuff should not be able to demarcate. In my opinion, I do this is like sort of an abrupt shift. But I'd like to spend a couple of minutes talking about the Toronto Raptors, who are okay, immediately fascinating more so than before post deadline, immediately, but long term? What was your You spoke about this on podcast, you wrote about it when you were talking about the you wrote something for your newsletter about being it's just a business. Impressions on what ended up happening with Kyle Lowry. Were you surprised that he ended up staying in Toronto? Did you expect that they weren't going to move him in Tampa? Excuse me, that's not something we give enough consideration to either. Is that every game is a road game for the Raptors. I was, I mean, like, to be honest, I was kind of like, in my heart, I was surprised from the perspective of the franchise. I suppose I wasn't because I don't know what Actually I was surprised because I didn't understand like what the hopeful, the hope for a return would be. Because I haven't understood this entire season what like, ever since the honest sweepstakes kind of failed for Toronto, it hasn't been clear to me what the next plan is. And that's a that's a novel thing under our MESSII Jerry, Like, I've always felt like there's several different plans and even if the one that we thought was going to happen as the pan out, you're aware of like the two the next two year plan or the next five year plan, all these kinds of things working at tandem. But like, aside from their relocation, this was the first season where I just haven't felt that sense of like, no, like, I don't feel like this team knows themselves in the same way. Hopefully that is not too obtuse, but like, and so I felt like this idea of getting rid of Kyle Lowry, who was just like your franchise maker essentially in this way, like so cruel, very unpoetic, you know, like this is how he has to say goodbye. He's not even in Toronto. He hasn't been in Toronto all season, and like what's the hoped for return for him. I know they have to make this decision. I guess like as as a quote business, but it was a bit jarring to me. Norman Pow made more sense. It was just a bit more heartbreaking because his entire career he had been working towards trying to find some consistency on the roster. While his teammates all found that and like hit their strides and kind of like Rose you know, around him, pau would still kind of have these fits and starts, mostly in the postseason, never really consistently in the regular season. And he got that this year and then he got traded for it, so like that was a bummer too, Like and he was drafted by Toronto. These are just like cruel realities of basketball. But I get it. Granted, I think pal ended up in a wonderful situation. He's exactly what the Blazers need and he'll do a wonderful job there, and I think he'll also like it personally. But yeah, I guess I wasn't surprised that he stayed because it just seemed like, what are you hoping for here? You know? And I think there's been some talk of like, well, how can you let him, like if he walks this offseason and you don't get anything for him like that you just let like three players walk for nothing, which will be factually true. But also like, at this point, unless it's clear like what the next few years are going to be for this team, I don't really care, Like I can't bring myself to care if Kyle Lowry wants to leave this summer and sign somewhere else. But that's one of the teams that was theoryt like, you know, supposedly on the market for him. Fine, he can do whatever he wants to do. Yeah. The other thing that I was and I think I follow I won't say too many. I follow so many people on Raptors Twitter that I feel Raptors Twitter adjacent at this point. I'm just so attached to the idea of Kyle Lowry playing in Toronto again. I kept saying on every podcast, every radio spot that he wasn't being moved, and I'm seeing these notifications come in from Woes that today is going to be a transformative day for the Raptors organization. And I'm still saying the same shit because I'm just prepared to be wrong because I wasn't ready. I just didn't think they should move him. And we don't know what the returns could have been if you missed out on Tyrese Maxie and a late first round pick, plus whatever you might have gotten for Danny Green and Kyle Awley leaves for nothing. My first response would be whatever. But I also don't think that this decision is made without the interest of keeping Kyle Lowry beyond this season, because you know, I don't know what the Raptors are doing right now. You know they're they're they're injured. I don't know if you want to put that in quotes, like are they trying to do this subtle one year tank? They're like still if they wanted to and they get healthy. And I do think they've been hit. I don't like, I don't have the numbers for this, but it feels like they've been hit by just injuries and the COVID stuff harder than a lot of other teams, and then also being displaced from Toronto. They're top four players when you look at Annobi Siakam, Kyle Lowering for at Fleet. They've played in fewer than twenty games together this season. This team, until their loss against the Bulls shorthanded, had a positive net rating. I still think they can be good. And if they want to fast track this thing too, yeah, if they want to chase a play in spot this season, I think they could get in. If they want to just be good next season, this is hey, we'll have a good draft pick this year and we will pay Kyle Lowry two years and fifty million dollars or whatever it is because we can still be good. I think that's a path that they can realistically explore that I think was ignored when people are like, well, they have to move him, and I saw people were like, oh, they made mistake when not trading him to the Lakers because they wanted talent Horton Tucker, and I was like, I wouldn't have traded him to the Lakers if THHD was actually on the table because you're getting Dennis Shrewder, who you have to pay, and then I guess KCP is like kind of useful to you, but you just traded away Norman Powell. Maybe you think he's gonna be more expensive. So I am in full support and then keeping him, and I think there's a higher chance of him returning than people are crediting right now. And the last thing, the last thing I'll ask or throwing you on this is I also don't know what how much Massa hu Jerry's own contract situation might have impacted this. But I don't think that he's like, oh, I don't care because my contracts not settled, so it doesn't matter what happens. I still think he at least it's harder to discern where the raptors are going. I do think part of that is his own contract situation at this point. Yeah, I agree with you, and I think that's something that's like I have maybe incrementally come to accept, is that maybe the reason for the trepidation and the lack of clarity that it seemed like there's been this season is because he's sort of gently gradually handing things over to Bobby Webster. Perhaps I could see him wanting to transition, like honestly I don't see him aside beside can go to whatever team he wants to, but a part of me also sees him transition sitting out of basketball into something a little bit more like socially or like politically minded. Honestly, maybe not, that's not his next move, but I think that's like an eventual move for him and with Kyle, like you can't the franchise can't do what it did to Damar DeRozan, and then I also like do the same thing to Kyle Lowry. So I do think like they gotta I was very happy when mass I said when someone asked him in like the press or after the deadline, like, well, aren't you biased about Kyle Lowry? And he was like, yeah, we're extremely biased about Kyle Lowry. Like he's like, we're not trying to hide that. But like the valuation valuation of players is such a like it's just it's such a changeable thing. It just depends on like that, you know, the traits of the league, what's happening, like what teams could use certain players, Like, it's not a static thing. Like so that's I think what people didn't understand either when it's like he's Calarry's either not worth that much or he's worth more. It's like the valuation is going to be different to every team at the table. And I think strategically this summer, all those teams that wanted him could probably still use him because I don't think a lot's going to change no matter what happens in the in the playoffs. I don't think a lot's going to change in the landscape of the league. But I mean any team, I just feel like this team is not done. Like this Toronto team is not done. Whether one they're too good to tank, they're too competitive to tank. They're kind of hanging in this frustrating middle ground where like I don't think they should get the play in spot, because I think they should. They could use a break. Honestly, what is the point of like the playoffs. They're not a young team that like wants the reps. They don't want the you know, like they've been there before. It's like, why get the play in if you're just gonna get out in like the first round may be the second round. That seems exhausting to me. But they're very competitive, so they might do that. I think they should just like play to their full capacity to the end of the season. Whenever that naturally concludes, take some time off, and like Tinker was, off season, because every team's going to be doing that, because yeah, Toronto was hit specifically hard with injuries in COVID, but there is not a team that's going to come out of this season unscathed in that way and that isn't going to need to regroup and reassess, and like there will be a lot of moves made this summer, I think. So I think like Toronto fans can cool their jets a little bit on that. So do you think there's like a better than advertised chance that Kyle Lowry's back with the team next year? And also the other part of this too is if he wasn't moved, it means that he clearly didn't ask her out. He might have been okay with going to Philly or Miami r LA. But if he's still in Toronto, it is because he didn't work with Toronto. I gotta stop the way I phrase that. If he's with Toronto's because he didn't ask to leave the Raptors, Yeah, exactly. Yeah, And I think that thing that people kind of take for granted It's like it's funny, like we're in the player autonomy era supposedly, you know, but like you got, we don't sometimes allow that to enter into the conversations of like, oh, yeah, maybe he didn't move because he really wasn't putting pressure on them to move him. Ultimately in that situation. Yeah, it's not his decision, but he does have influence over it. So yeah, I think he would. I think he would probably want to stay. All he ever talks about is how much he loves watching Fred and Pascal and Og play and like their futures kind of unfold before him. I think he would still really want to be a part of this team that he is essentially just built in his image. Two more really quick questions, and I promise I will let you go. What have been in your oppressions of Gary Trent Junior thus far? Oh? I love him. He's great. He's like a real He's just such a spark one. He's like a spark in general, but he is a spark. I think Toronto he did, you know, he's like such an energetic player. I think he's very you know when you watch, like the team played together for a really long time. They all sort of like absorb the habits and the like. I don't know, just like even the ways that they move on court from one another. And Gary is just like a kind of whirling sprite that's like a lot different than that. So I think right like the timing was perfect. He this is Jack read. I hope it's enough to kind of stir things up. I love how his friendship was Og is kind of developing. I think Og was really bummed they didn't have a friend after Search left, like he didn't really have someone kind of in that capacity, and I feel like those two guys have a lot to talk about. In his first pressure he was like someone was like, how'd you find out? He was like, oh, I was taking a name, and I was like, Nan, I love this guy. He seems like having really liked him in Portland, and then Tarabo and Bigs friend of the podcast, like turning me onto his like selfies like his selfie game. Oh yeah, eminently enjoyable human beings. My final question for you is, so if this team is I'm assuming wants to be on a faster track to getting back to where they were last season or their championship here, what's the type of player, or assuming that this current core with Kyle Lowry stays in tact, what's the what's the biggest thing that they're missing right now? A center, a usable center. I don't know. I feel like, no, no, this is the thing. Bouche plays the best when he's freed up, not to just be stuck at the five, like he's so much fun when he can just like run around the court, be a maniac, get tangled up in like all these ways that sometimes don't work out for him, but sometime, like you know, when it does, it's explosive. And without a center, like without Marcus sol or sir Chebaca like in that position, his momentum has really been stifled this season because Bains is just like non comparable in that sense. And it's still baffling to me. Bains, who has played on so many teams as like a mercenary style player, can't reb and sometimes just can't catch, just doesn't ever seem to know where to be. So, you know, I feel like a slander Bains too much, especially after everything we just talked about being empathetic, but it's been very frustrating to watch him. I think, yeah, they think they need a big, whether that's like a stretch or like a versatile big that's like my dream, you know, like bam Adebaio is my dream. It will never happen, But I mean, like someone like that would be the perfect player for Toronto. He doesn't provide much stretch with the guy circled, and I do agree with you. And if you're gonna be Chris Bruche, just if you want to contest jumpers as much as he does, and I enjoy watching it, like you can't be like the defensive anchor on Center, Like you need someone who's close to the basket. Rashaun Holmes is someone who's interesting if they can afford him this year, Katie, this was great. Thank you for giving me so much of your time. I'll be putting the contact tracing links in our description. But are you able to tell our listeners where they can find you and your work? Yeah? You can find me on Twitter at what have wt evs. I think I still have a pinch tweet to the first story in that series, just because really suck the life out of me for a few months. So I'm trying to juice them out as much as I can. But they're on time so you can find them there and then all the it's a three part every piece has a link at the top to one of the other stories. It was great. You should check it out and definitely subscribe to Basketball Feelings if you have not already very enjoyable posts and you evoke so much emotion when you write, not just blowing smoke if you're easily one of my favorite writers. So thank you so much for giving me a bunch of your time and I'm sure I'll be protesting you again for the future. Thank you, Thank you for having me. This was a lot of fun.