WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:04.200 Made the Lord open. We have been bought good weather his bountiful how ovist 2 00:00:04.480 --> 00:00:08.519 throw away all of the books. We have destroyed them all and we have 3 00:00:08.599 --> 00:00:13.960 no longer got any more to read. Made the Lord open under his eye. 4 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:19.359 So there's this TikTok video that's gone viral on It's featuring Covenant Bible Church 5 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:23.719 pastor Joel Webbin, and he's preaching from the pulpit on the role of women 6 00:00:24.000 --> 00:00:28.000 in the Christian household. In this video, he admits to regulating his wife's 7 00:00:28.039 --> 00:00:32.880 reading, dictating what materials she's even allowed to explore. In addition to controlling 8 00:00:32.920 --> 00:00:37.399 his wife, he also proclaimed showing no signs of shame whatsoever, as you 9 00:00:37.479 --> 00:00:41.320 point out that he also rules his children's lives with an iron hand, even 10 00:00:41.359 --> 00:00:45.240 dictating when they can use the bathroom. Needless to say, this video has 11 00:00:45.240 --> 00:00:49.759 brought a lot of pushback against the pastor. This story is from Scarymammy dot 12 00:00:49.759 --> 00:00:54.240 com by Katie Garretty and it was published on April fifth, twenty twenty four. 13 00:00:54.719 --> 00:00:57.320 So after reading this, the first thing that came to my mind was 14 00:00:57.960 --> 00:01:02.759 is this abuse? Okay? So we can clearly it's he's there's a line 15 00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:08.359 and he's gone well beyond the line of healthy interactions within his family. But 16 00:01:08.519 --> 00:01:14.159 my thoughts were, is it abusive? So he thinks that what he's doing 17 00:01:14.560 --> 00:01:17.920 is right. He's thinking that he's doing right by his family. On the 18 00:01:17.959 --> 00:01:21.640 one hand, I think intentions do make a difference. I think intentions do 19 00:01:22.400 --> 00:01:25.719 come into play here. In his mind, he's trying to do it's right. 20 00:01:26.079 --> 00:01:30.760 But on the other hand, there is such thing as negligence and so 21 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:36.319 us controlling behavior? What's that? And coercive and controlling behavior exactly exactly and 22 00:01:36.439 --> 00:01:40.200 so so. But what if his wife is eagerly consenting? You know, 23 00:01:40.239 --> 00:01:42.200 do we have a right to judge how they live in their family? It 24 00:01:42.359 --> 00:01:49.200 made me think of, uh, the wearing of he job by Muslim women. 25 00:01:49.840 --> 00:01:53.959 Very often we'll see Muslim women saying that they choose to wear it and 26 00:01:53.959 --> 00:01:56.079 that they're proud to wear it, and that it's a way for them to 27 00:01:56.120 --> 00:02:00.480 express their commitment to their religion while to the world. I think that's slightly 28 00:02:00.519 --> 00:02:05.439 different in this case, because that's someone choosing their own at tire. Here 29 00:02:05.480 --> 00:02:08.719 the guys, you would think, here's the guy is prohibiting left, right 30 00:02:08.759 --> 00:02:14.199 and center what can and cannot be consumed right, But what I'm saying is 31 00:02:14.240 --> 00:02:17.639 that is she consenting to that model? Okay? Is she consenting to that 32 00:02:17.719 --> 00:02:22.840 model? Is she consenting to this type of relationship that is getting into And 33 00:02:23.159 --> 00:02:25.759 I'm starting to sound like I'm defending him, So I need to change what 34 00:02:25.759 --> 00:02:30.120 I'm saying now because I'm starting to feel kind of icky. So what is 35 00:02:30.159 --> 00:02:34.199 some sort of Stockham syndrome? It could be, It very well could be. 36 00:02:34.360 --> 00:02:36.960 It could be. But what So the way we judge these kind of 37 00:02:36.960 --> 00:02:39.280 things is what would a reasonable person do in this instance? And I think 38 00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:45.120 that definitely tips the scales, That definitely pushes us into the wrong end of 39 00:02:45.159 --> 00:02:49.080 the spectrum at the very least. At the very least, it's unfair oppression. 40 00:02:49.639 --> 00:02:52.520 At the worst though, it's just straight up abuse writ large. And 41 00:02:52.560 --> 00:02:58.520 there's simply no good reason that anybody, much less a Christian family would need 42 00:02:58.560 --> 00:03:00.159 to treat women this way. Remember, though, he's got kids, though, 43 00:03:00.199 --> 00:03:04.639 and the kids can't consent to this. The kids don't have a choice 44 00:03:04.639 --> 00:03:07.919 in this matter. So what is his wife? He says that he controls 45 00:03:07.960 --> 00:03:10.199 the lives of his kids as well. Right, The problem here is when 46 00:03:10.240 --> 00:03:14.159 he starts saying that he's controlling the life of his kids. And then we 47 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:16.599 go back to the beginning of this where we start going under his eye, 48 00:03:16.680 --> 00:03:21.479 made the Lord open blah blah blah blah blah, referencing the handmaate out because 49 00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:24.319 there's no consent there when it comes to the children, the children are not 50 00:03:24.439 --> 00:03:29.400 consenting to this. It's being done to them as a product of being part 51 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:32.360 of this family. I think that argument can be made for the wife as 52 00:03:32.400 --> 00:03:36.639 well. But the wife has chosen to enter into the marriage with him in 53 00:03:36.639 --> 00:03:39.639 the first place, and that's the marriage. Maybe maybe marriage, not the 54 00:03:39.719 --> 00:03:43.840 nature of the relationship. I think this is a product. I think this 55 00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:46.639 is a product of the religion. I think because it reminds me, and 56 00:03:46.680 --> 00:03:47.960 I've talked about this on the show before, but it reminds me of like 57 00:03:49.000 --> 00:03:53.800 this graphic that I've seen and has like this is the model for a Christian 58 00:03:53.840 --> 00:03:58.360 marriage or a Guidly marriage, and it's like the top umbrella is the church 59 00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:00.560 or a God, and then the middle one is the husband and the bottom 60 00:04:00.599 --> 00:04:03.919 one is the wife, and it is intended that the wife is like subservient 61 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:08.240 to the husband and supposed to listen. And it's like even in the Bible, 62 00:04:08.280 --> 00:04:12.120 you look at what do we have here? We have one Timothy two 63 00:04:12.199 --> 00:04:17.560 eleven through twelve. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. Do 64 00:04:17.639 --> 00:04:20.519 not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must 65 00:04:20.560 --> 00:04:25.680 be silent. There's a fusions five twenty two. Wives, submit to your 66 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:30.040 own husbands as to the Lord. These are things that are taught in Christianity. 67 00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:32.399 And I think that's why I think you can make that same argument for 68 00:04:32.560 --> 00:04:36.839 the wife that she was taught this growing up, that that's how she's supposed 69 00:04:36.879 --> 00:04:41.519 to be. Not only does he think this is okay, she thinks this 70 00:04:41.639 --> 00:04:45.199 is okay, right right? Yeah? Asians, quite you make that that 71 00:04:45.279 --> 00:04:48.720 has been interpreted many ways. Submit to your husband's as to the work that 72 00:04:49.079 --> 00:04:54.240 has been interpreted on the other side's be equal, be subject to one another, 73 00:04:54.480 --> 00:04:58.000 not be you know, high rock. There is also a verse in 74 00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:00.040 the Bible that says, you know, subject yourself so one another. So 75 00:05:00.120 --> 00:05:03.680 everyone reads the wives, be submission for your husbands. But the resource of 76 00:05:03.800 --> 00:05:09.800 verse where it does say submit yourselves to each other, be subject to one 77 00:05:09.800 --> 00:05:15.480 another. Yeah, when this one says as to the Lord, so that 78 00:05:15.560 --> 00:05:17.920 wouldn't be a mutual relationship. Sorry, go ahead, I was gonna say 79 00:05:17.920 --> 00:05:21.720 that we don't have the We're only speculating on the wife's perspective. So we 80 00:05:21.800 --> 00:05:26.519 clearly have the husband the past of slash husband's perspective, but we don't have 81 00:05:26.560 --> 00:05:29.639 the wife. So when I think it was a Scott or Scott ilo, 82 00:05:29.800 --> 00:05:32.079 you said that the wife is submitting to this well things that is, she 83 00:05:32.279 --> 00:05:34.920 really does she have a choice, So she feels like she has a choice, 84 00:05:35.079 --> 00:05:40.040 because let's say this is a let's say this is a secular marriage in 85 00:05:40.120 --> 00:05:46.720 which the husband is abusive and the wife feels no option to escape. Would 86 00:05:46.759 --> 00:05:50.560 we then say that she is willingly submitting to an abusive marriage. So I 87 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:55.560 think speculating on the wife's intentions or beliefs is a little bit harder this situation. 88 00:05:55.600 --> 00:06:02.240 Without having her saying ex for this behavior, I think like in yeah, 89 00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:08.000 obviously the religion is being used as an excuse, But what I'm trying 90 00:06:08.040 --> 00:06:14.839 to say is that speculating on the wife's acceptance of it is speculative, speculative 91 00:06:14.839 --> 00:06:17.959 at this stage without having her direct words. If we got the wife in 92 00:06:18.000 --> 00:06:21.519 a room by herself and said, you, you know, what you say 93 00:06:21.759 --> 00:06:26.079 in this room stays in this room, what do you really think would she 94 00:06:26.240 --> 00:06:29.879 say, yeah, I love this arrangement everything so that are forming, or 95 00:06:30.240 --> 00:06:32.040 I really want my own freedom. Can you help me find a way out. 96 00:06:32.160 --> 00:06:36.240 I also find it ironic that we're reading this article considering she probably wouldn't 97 00:06:36.240 --> 00:06:40.240 be allowed to read this article in the first place, well at least not 98 00:06:40.360 --> 00:06:43.360 until after he's read it and given the thumbs up for it. Right, 99 00:06:46.199 --> 00:06:50.000 yeah, exactly. But we get into the thing here, well, where 100 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:57.680 does religion start and grotesque abuse start in these cases? Oh, I mean, 101 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:02.120 there's definitely a lot of overlap. I think I don't think that because 102 00:07:02.160 --> 00:07:06.279 it is religion that it is not grotesque abuse. So I think that that 103 00:07:06.360 --> 00:07:10.439 if if you can call it abuse, you can call it that whether it 104 00:07:10.560 --> 00:07:15.000 is a tenant or a factor of a religious belief or not. I think 105 00:07:15.000 --> 00:07:20.519 that abusive behavior, to to more to a degree more so than not, 106 00:07:21.120 --> 00:07:29.879 is objective rather than subjective. And I think Scott made a good point about 107 00:07:30.120 --> 00:07:32.600 you know, there are there are plenty of women in Islam who do say 108 00:07:32.600 --> 00:07:36.279 they choose to weigh the hit job and and and don't see it as oppressive 109 00:07:36.279 --> 00:07:41.360 and problematic or abusive, and that in their subjective view they don't see it 110 00:07:41.399 --> 00:07:46.160 as abusive. But if you look at the idea of somebody controlling the actions 111 00:07:46.199 --> 00:07:50.079 and the decisions and the mode of dress and any aspect of another person's life, 112 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.360 I think you start to encroach into abusive behavior at that point. I 113 00:07:55.399 --> 00:07:58.879 mean, take Afghanistan and Iran for example. Those countries they see it tis 114 00:07:58.879 --> 00:08:03.680 acceptable to controled the dress of women, in particular because it's been institutionalized. 115 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:09.879 And are we as a society, as a Western society, what right do 116 00:08:09.959 --> 00:08:13.959 we actually have to start complaining about what these other cultures are doing. Why 117 00:08:13.000 --> 00:08:18.759 are we imposing what we consider to be correct here on these people? If 118 00:08:18.759 --> 00:08:22.519 they think it's fine, it's fine, Scott, isn't it well, on 119 00:08:22.519 --> 00:08:24.199 one hand, we could say yes, But on the other hand, we 120 00:08:24.240 --> 00:08:28.519 could say that there is definite manipulation here. And it's not just manipulation at 121 00:08:28.519 --> 00:08:33.240 the top level. It's not just today being manipulated. You know, your 122 00:08:33.279 --> 00:08:37.240 husband telling you to do what you do. It's manipulation that's been taking place 123 00:08:37.240 --> 00:08:43.240 since childhood. It's deeply ingrained in their development. When you know the famous 124 00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.000 saying, you know, give me a child when but before he's six years 125 00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.200 old, and I'll have them for life, right, and so they train 126 00:08:48.279 --> 00:08:56.600 them from an early age to not only be accepting of these religious dictates and 127 00:08:56.639 --> 00:09:03.240 these religious standards, but also to be proud and enthusiastic about embracing them about 128 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:07.320 It's part of their identity, it's part of it's part of the way families 129 00:09:07.320 --> 00:09:09.200 are meant to be and part of the way families are supposed to be. 130 00:09:09.480 --> 00:09:13.200 And so when when, uh, you know, these people grow up and 131 00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:20.200 they become adults. Yes, they're technically giving they're technically giving consent, but 132 00:09:20.440 --> 00:09:22.320 are they really I mean, is it really a heartfelt consent? Is it 133 00:09:22.360 --> 00:09:28.000 really an informed consent? Is it really a freely given consent? It's hard 134 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.600 to say. So to answer your question, can we judge other other cultures? 135 00:09:31.679 --> 00:09:33.600 Of course we can judge them. Are we justified in judging them, 136 00:09:33.639 --> 00:09:37.720 Well, it depends how we couch that judgment, and so it would it 137 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.240 would really depend. I think that it's it doesn't take much of an argument 138 00:09:41.320 --> 00:09:48.080 to show that there is oppression happening here, that there is you know, 139 00:09:48.279 --> 00:09:54.759 rights being taken away and restricted from from this man's wife, and and so 140 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.559 you know, it's it's uh there, I think it was was Eli that 141 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:03.200 was said that there is objective abuse happening, or is objective oppression happening, 142 00:10:03.240 --> 00:10:05.840 And that's a There's a clear case to be made for that. And I 143 00:10:05.879 --> 00:10:13.200 think that just because a culture is accepting of something does not mean that it's 144 00:10:13.240 --> 00:10:16.039 healthy, and it does not mean that it's good. And I think following 145 00:10:16.080 --> 00:10:20.840 on from that, I mean as the resident non American resident here, Damien, 146 00:10:20.519 --> 00:10:26.159 what's your take on seeing is as somebody who is from the land down 147 00:10:26.240 --> 00:10:28.960 Under? And what is it like seeing this from an Australian perspective? I 148 00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:31.639 mean, is this shocking to you if this was happening in Australia? Would 149 00:10:31.679 --> 00:10:35.960 it be more or less shocking if it was happening in something very big megachurch? 150 00:10:37.440 --> 00:10:39.679 Yeah, well, I would say if this was in Australia, I 151 00:10:39.720 --> 00:10:46.240 think there would be especially considering that right now Australia is going through this this 152 00:10:46.399 --> 00:10:52.519 very large discussion about gender based violence and abuse. So if it came out 153 00:10:52.559 --> 00:10:56.200 that a pastor was essentially abusing his wife in this way, I think that 154 00:10:56.240 --> 00:11:01.320 would that would add fuel fuel to the fire, so to speak. But 155 00:11:01.519 --> 00:11:07.840 just reading reading this story, it really sounds like a prison where in prison 156 00:11:07.000 --> 00:11:11.240 your mail is read before you get it. And you know, the prison 157 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:16.279 authorities will cut out certain articles in the newspaper before they give you the newspaper 158 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:22.200 and that, and it really it really got me thinking that this is essentially 159 00:11:22.240 --> 00:11:26.559 a cult. If you're you know, if you only allowed certain information or 160 00:11:26.600 --> 00:11:33.720 opinions that are pre approved and vetted by a higher authority, then that is 161 00:11:33.120 --> 00:11:39.639 that is essentially a cult. And I remember from my time in a in 162 00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:46.759 the fundamentalist charismatic church group. You know, you were I suppose the word 163 00:11:46.879 --> 00:11:50.919 of the pastor was like the highest authority in the church. And so if 164 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:56.159 the pastor didn't like something, or if the pastor you know, said I 165 00:11:56.279 --> 00:11:58.639 really would read that, I far were you. You know, it was 166 00:11:58.720 --> 00:12:03.039 like anathema to read it. And so a lot of religions, I mean, 167 00:12:03.080 --> 00:12:09.960 take Jehovah's witnesses who shun people for consuming ungodly like materials, or I 168 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:13.960 do the same. I was also going to say, though, that America 169 00:12:15.039 --> 00:12:22.879 seems to be very very good at this, this fundamental fundamentalist religion in that 170 00:12:22.159 --> 00:12:26.399 you know, you have you know, your Appalachian snake handlers, and you 171 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:30.440 have these you know, like the Amish. Actually I was going to say, 172 00:12:30.440 --> 00:12:33.120 this is like the Amish, where the Armish will raise their children, 173 00:12:33.559 --> 00:12:35.759 you know, up until they're eighteen, and then if I if I have 174 00:12:35.879 --> 00:12:39.519 it correct, at eighteen, they let their children go for a year to 175 00:12:39.600 --> 00:12:43.399 decide if they if they want to come back. Well, if you if 176 00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:46.320 you've raised a child for eighteen years in a very strict in a very strict 177 00:12:46.360 --> 00:12:50.600 way, and then let them go, of course they're going to struggle and 178 00:12:50.639 --> 00:12:54.559 want to come back because you've taken away all their support. Yeah, there 179 00:12:54.600 --> 00:12:56.279 at all, is what you're saying. Yeah, exactly exactly. So I 180 00:12:56.279 --> 00:13:01.840 suppose to me like if a if a past read a book and the wife 181 00:13:01.879 --> 00:13:03.279 goes, hey, you know what he as? You know, if the 182 00:13:03.320 --> 00:13:07.360 wife was reading a book and the husband goes, you know, hey, 183 00:13:07.960 --> 00:13:11.320 what's what's in that book? The right response to be, hey, honey, 184 00:13:11.480 --> 00:13:15.200 is there anything interesting in that book that we could both learn? Not? 185 00:13:15.399 --> 00:13:16.480 You know, take it away. I'm going to read it for you. 186 00:13:18.240 --> 00:13:22.679 Here you go. You are allowed to otherwise, having cut out nasty 187 00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:28.159 little words, but otherwise otherwise. It's essentially a marriage cult. And I 188 00:13:28.200 --> 00:13:31.159 mean, I'm a married woman. I don't consider my marriage to be a 189 00:13:31.200 --> 00:13:33.799 cult. I mean, did anyone else on the panel consider marriage to be 190 00:13:33.879 --> 00:13:39.360 a cult. Do you think marriage is a cult? I'm not saying marriage. 191 00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:43.639 Need to answer no to that question. Do you think marriage is a 192 00:13:43.639 --> 00:13:46.759 cult? I'm no longer married. Like an answer, however, I want 193 00:13:52.440 --> 00:13:56.480 you said you meant the religion, or at least his church, is a 194 00:13:56.480 --> 00:14:01.240 cult of interpretation, his interpretation of the religon. Yeah, I'm just saying 195 00:14:01.240 --> 00:14:03.639 marriage itself is a call. I'm saying that this marriage, this particular marriage, 196 00:14:03.679 --> 00:14:07.960 in which information is controlled and even what the toilet breaks for the children 197 00:14:09.000 --> 00:14:13.919 are controlled. That's a bit that is way weird. That's more than a 198 00:14:13.960 --> 00:14:22.200 bit weird. That's just that is life of suburbia weird. I wonder if 199 00:14:22.200 --> 00:14:24.519 he was just kind of using hyperbole at that point. But honestly, at 200 00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:28.720 the same time, I was so surprised, like I thought when he said 201 00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.240 he had the four people whose lives he controlled, I was so certain that 202 00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:35.440 his wife was going to be one of those four people that I was surprised 203 00:14:35.480 --> 00:14:37.519 to find out that his wife has four kids and not three. But he 204 00:14:37.559 --> 00:14:41.360 does say in the video like they are my children, so he's talking about 205 00:14:41.399 --> 00:14:45.200 his kids. But I was really surprised that so he doesn't even consider it 206 00:14:45.279 --> 00:14:48.639 to be controlling her life. That's what that's saying. Yeah, exactly, 207 00:14:50.039 --> 00:14:52.919 that's the more thing about it. Now here's a question for all three of 208 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.279 you. If she was doing it to him, would this be a more 209 00:14:56.360 --> 00:15:01.399 shocking story? Would it be more shocking? I would be more surprised to 210 00:15:01.440 --> 00:15:07.360 see that dynamic, especially with him being like in their culture, in their 211 00:15:07.840 --> 00:15:11.960 religion, and in their circumstances. I would be surprised to see that dynamic. 212 00:15:13.279 --> 00:15:16.919 Would I be surprised to learn of something like that happening? Generally speaking? 213 00:15:16.039 --> 00:15:18.360 Not at all. No, I think that's absolutely within the realm of 214 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.600 reason. Yeah, it would be more surprising. It wouldn't be any more 215 00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:28.279 offensive, but it would be more unusual. Would it be any less offensive? 216 00:15:28.600 --> 00:15:31.080 You said it wouldn't be more offensive? Would be it would be equally 217 00:15:31.080 --> 00:15:35.159 offensive? Yeah, I mean, Damien, would would it be more less 218 00:15:35.159 --> 00:15:39.840 offensive? Would it be weird to see it? Would? It would definitely 219 00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.840 be weird? And look, I agree, it's equally it's equally offensive because 220 00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:48.600 you know, to me, a good marriage is where both partners are equal. 221 00:15:48.039 --> 00:15:50.720 You know, you can equally share with each other, you know, 222 00:15:50.960 --> 00:15:56.039 so to me, like a controlling. A controlling marriage is a controlling marriage. 223 00:15:56.120 --> 00:15:58.840 You know, there's this, there is the trope that the wife, 224 00:16:00.120 --> 00:16:02.799 you know, a happy wife, happy wife. You know which I mean. 225 00:16:02.879 --> 00:16:04.720 Old marriage vowers used to say that the woman used to use to use 226 00:16:04.759 --> 00:16:08.919 the word submit in the marriage house. I mean. Queen Elizabeth I Winston 227 00:16:10.039 --> 00:16:15.240 Churchill famously tried to have the words submit removed from the marriage vows when married 228 00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:21.240 the Duke of Edinburgh as he then became, because she was the head of 229 00:16:21.240 --> 00:16:23.799 the Church of England and she could only be submitted to God, not to 230 00:16:25.200 --> 00:16:30.200 a man on earth. When when my wife and I got married, we 231 00:16:30.200 --> 00:16:33.759 we her. My wife's uncle, who was a minister, married us. 232 00:16:33.799 --> 00:16:36.159 She'd always wanted to have that done. That was fine. I agreed with 233 00:16:36.200 --> 00:16:38.159 that, and he gave us some vows that we could that we were intended 234 00:16:38.159 --> 00:16:41.799 to build on. But we decided we were going to take out the obey. 235 00:16:41.840 --> 00:16:44.360 There was love, honor, and obey, and we said, you 236 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:47.679 know, take that obey out. That's just that's going a little too far, 237 00:16:47.799 --> 00:16:51.360 that's crossing the line for us, and so so yeah, so so 238 00:16:51.399 --> 00:16:53.480 we didn't we didn't want to include that in our own commitment to each other. 239 00:16:55.440 --> 00:16:57.080 It's such a strange concept if you think about it, like, I'm 240 00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.120 going to choose a person to obey for the rest of my life? Right 241 00:17:00.600 --> 00:17:07.160 would I want to do that? The problem is in American fundamentalist religion, 242 00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:11.279 especially when you get to the idea of purity culture. The idea of you 243 00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:17.960 know, a woman choosing a man to sit under as her authority. Isn't 244 00:17:18.400 --> 00:17:22.519 that alien? Is that alien or strange? It's only it's only alien and 245 00:17:22.599 --> 00:17:26.240 strange to us who have been in there and now outside of us will hold 246 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:30.039 I would a woman, you know, willingly sit under the authority of a 247 00:17:30.039 --> 00:17:34.599 man for the rest of the rest of a life. Well, it reminds 248 00:17:34.640 --> 00:17:41.799 me of the psychological concept of learned helplessness, Right, so learn helplessness. 249 00:17:41.799 --> 00:17:44.200 You know, you know that there's nothing you can do about it, and 250 00:17:44.240 --> 00:17:48.799 so you become helpless, kind of like in the Shah Shank Redemption, when 251 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.960 one of the older prisoners Brooks I think his name was he he gets out 252 00:17:53.200 --> 00:17:56.680 and before they let him out, he actually tries to kill one of the 253 00:17:56.680 --> 00:18:00.359 other prisoners because he doesn't want to leave. He doesn't know how, he 254 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:02.920 doesn't know how to deal with the world. He doesn't know how to interact, 255 00:18:03.279 --> 00:18:06.880 and you know, he ends up harming himself. But but it's you 256 00:18:06.920 --> 00:18:10.680 know, it's it's learned helpless helplessness. He's had that for such a long 257 00:18:10.720 --> 00:18:14.119 time. She's had this for a long time. These families have had this, 258 00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.759 this type of uh, this normality for a long time, and then 259 00:18:17.920 --> 00:18:19.720 and they get used to it, and then they can't function outside of it. 260 00:18:19.839 --> 00:18:22.759 I mean, in social services, there's a social work. There's another 261 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:29.039 concept called de skilling people. If you try to do everything for somebody because 262 00:18:29.079 --> 00:18:32.839 you think you're helping them, but in the fact, you're actually de skilling 263 00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.400 them. And I do hope that this has skilled you up to be a 264 00:18:36.440 --> 00:18:38.400 bit more knowledgeable on this. And if you want to read more about this 265 00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:42.599 article, it's the other non profit episodes. 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