Made the Lord open. We have been bought good weather his bountiful how ovist
throw away all of the books. We have destroyed them all and we have
no longer got any more to read. Made the Lord open under his eye.
So there's this TikTok video that's gone viral on It's featuring Covenant Bible Church
pastor Joel Webbin, and he's preaching from the pulpit on the role of women
in the Christian household. In this video, he admits to regulating his wife's
reading, dictating what materials she's even allowed to explore. In addition to controlling
his wife, he also proclaimed showing no signs of shame whatsoever, as you
point out that he also rules his children's lives with an iron hand, even
dictating when they can use the bathroom. Needless to say, this video has
brought a lot of pushback against the pastor. This story is from Scarymammy dot
com by Katie Garretty and it was published on April fifth, twenty twenty four.
So after reading this, the first thing that came to my mind was
is this abuse? Okay? So we can clearly it's he's there's a line
and he's gone well beyond the line of healthy interactions within his family. But
my thoughts were, is it abusive? So he thinks that what he's doing
is right. He's thinking that he's doing right by his family. On the
one hand, I think intentions do make a difference. I think intentions do
come into play here. In his mind, he's trying to do it's right.
But on the other hand, there is such thing as negligence and so
us controlling behavior? What's that? And coercive and controlling behavior exactly exactly and
so so. But what if his wife is eagerly consenting? You know,
do we have a right to judge how they live in their family? It
made me think of, uh, the wearing of he job by Muslim women.
Very often we'll see Muslim women saying that they choose to wear it and
that they're proud to wear it, and that it's a way for them to
express their commitment to their religion while to the world. I think that's slightly
different in this case, because that's someone choosing their own at tire. Here
the guys, you would think, here's the guy is prohibiting left, right
and center what can and cannot be consumed right, But what I'm saying is
that is she consenting to that model? Okay? Is she consenting to that
model? Is she consenting to this type of relationship that is getting into And
I'm starting to sound like I'm defending him, So I need to change what
I'm saying now because I'm starting to feel kind of icky. So what is
some sort of Stockham syndrome? It could be, It very well could be.
It could be. But what So the way we judge these kind of
things is what would a reasonable person do in this instance? And I think
that definitely tips the scales, That definitely pushes us into the wrong end of
the spectrum at the very least. At the very least, it's unfair oppression.
At the worst though, it's just straight up abuse writ large. And
there's simply no good reason that anybody, much less a Christian family would need
to treat women this way. Remember, though, he's got kids, though,
and the kids can't consent to this. The kids don't have a choice
in this matter. So what is his wife? He says that he controls
the lives of his kids as well. Right, The problem here is when
he starts saying that he's controlling the life of his kids. And then we
go back to the beginning of this where we start going under his eye,
made the Lord open blah blah blah blah blah, referencing the handmaate out because
there's no consent there when it comes to the children, the children are not
consenting to this. It's being done to them as a product of being part
of this family. I think that argument can be made for the wife as
well. But the wife has chosen to enter into the marriage with him in
the first place, and that's the marriage. Maybe maybe marriage, not the
nature of the relationship. I think this is a product. I think this
is a product of the religion. I think because it reminds me, and
I've talked about this on the show before, but it reminds me of like
this graphic that I've seen and has like this is the model for a Christian
marriage or a Guidly marriage, and it's like the top umbrella is the church
or a God, and then the middle one is the husband and the bottom
one is the wife, and it is intended that the wife is like subservient
to the husband and supposed to listen. And it's like even in the Bible,
you look at what do we have here? We have one Timothy two
eleven through twelve. A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. Do
not permit a woman to teach or have authority over a man. She must
be silent. There's a fusions five twenty two. Wives, submit to your
own husbands as to the Lord. These are things that are taught in Christianity.
And I think that's why I think you can make that same argument for
the wife that she was taught this growing up, that that's how she's supposed
to be. Not only does he think this is okay, she thinks this
is okay, right right? Yeah? Asians, quite you make that that
has been interpreted many ways. Submit to your husband's as to the work that
has been interpreted on the other side's be equal, be subject to one another,
not be you know, high rock. There is also a verse in
the Bible that says, you know, subject yourself so one another. So
everyone reads the wives, be submission for your husbands. But the resource of
verse where it does say submit yourselves to each other, be subject to one
another. Yeah, when this one says as to the Lord, so that
wouldn't be a mutual relationship. Sorry, go ahead, I was gonna say
that we don't have the We're only speculating on the wife's perspective. So we
clearly have the husband the past of slash husband's perspective, but we don't have
the wife. So when I think it was a Scott or Scott ilo,
you said that the wife is submitting to this well things that is, she
really does she have a choice, So she feels like she has a choice,
because let's say this is a let's say this is a secular marriage in
which the husband is abusive and the wife feels no option to escape. Would
we then say that she is willingly submitting to an abusive marriage. So I
think speculating on the wife's intentions or beliefs is a little bit harder this situation.
Without having her saying ex for this behavior, I think like in yeah,
obviously the religion is being used as an excuse, But what I'm trying
to say is that speculating on the wife's acceptance of it is speculative, speculative
at this stage without having her direct words. If we got the wife in
a room by herself and said, you, you know, what you say
in this room stays in this room, what do you really think would she
say, yeah, I love this arrangement everything so that are forming, or
I really want my own freedom. Can you help me find a way out.
I also find it ironic that we're reading this article considering she probably wouldn't
be allowed to read this article in the first place, well at least not
until after he's read it and given the thumbs up for it. Right,
yeah, exactly. But we get into the thing here, well, where
does religion start and grotesque abuse start in these cases? Oh, I mean,
there's definitely a lot of overlap. I think I don't think that because
it is religion that it is not grotesque abuse. So I think that that
if if you can call it abuse, you can call it that whether it
is a tenant or a factor of a religious belief or not. I think
that abusive behavior, to to more to a degree more so than not,
is objective rather than subjective. And I think Scott made a good point about
you know, there are there are plenty of women in Islam who do say
they choose to weigh the hit job and and and don't see it as oppressive
and problematic or abusive, and that in their subjective view they don't see it
as abusive. But if you look at the idea of somebody controlling the actions
and the decisions and the mode of dress and any aspect of another person's life,
I think you start to encroach into abusive behavior at that point. I
mean, take Afghanistan and Iran for example. Those countries they see it tis
acceptable to controled the dress of women, in particular because it's been institutionalized.
And are we as a society, as a Western society, what right do
we actually have to start complaining about what these other cultures are doing. Why
are we imposing what we consider to be correct here on these people? If
they think it's fine, it's fine, Scott, isn't it well, on
one hand, we could say yes, But on the other hand, we
could say that there is definite manipulation here. And it's not just manipulation at
the top level. It's not just today being manipulated. You know, your
husband telling you to do what you do. It's manipulation that's been taking place
since childhood. It's deeply ingrained in their development. When you know the famous
saying, you know, give me a child when but before he's six years
old, and I'll have them for life, right, and so they train
them from an early age to not only be accepting of these religious dictates and
these religious standards, but also to be proud and enthusiastic about embracing them about
It's part of their identity, it's part of it's part of the way families
are meant to be and part of the way families are supposed to be.
And so when when, uh, you know, these people grow up and
they become adults. Yes, they're technically giving they're technically giving consent, but
are they really I mean, is it really a heartfelt consent? Is it
really an informed consent? Is it really a freely given consent? It's hard
to say. So to answer your question, can we judge other other cultures?
Of course we can judge them. Are we justified in judging them,
Well, it depends how we couch that judgment, and so it would it
would really depend. I think that it's it doesn't take much of an argument
to show that there is oppression happening here, that there is you know,
rights being taken away and restricted from from this man's wife, and and so
you know, it's it's uh there, I think it was was Eli that
was said that there is objective abuse happening, or is objective oppression happening,
And that's a There's a clear case to be made for that. And I
think that just because a culture is accepting of something does not mean that it's
healthy, and it does not mean that it's good. And I think following
on from that, I mean as the resident non American resident here, Damien,
what's your take on seeing is as somebody who is from the land down
Under? And what is it like seeing this from an Australian perspective? I
mean, is this shocking to you if this was happening in Australia? Would
it be more or less shocking if it was happening in something very big megachurch?
Yeah, well, I would say if this was in Australia, I
think there would be especially considering that right now Australia is going through this this
very large discussion about gender based violence and abuse. So if it came out
that a pastor was essentially abusing his wife in this way, I think that
would that would add fuel fuel to the fire, so to speak. But
just reading reading this story, it really sounds like a prison where in prison
your mail is read before you get it. And you know, the prison
authorities will cut out certain articles in the newspaper before they give you the newspaper
and that, and it really it really got me thinking that this is essentially
a cult. If you're you know, if you only allowed certain information or
opinions that are pre approved and vetted by a higher authority, then that is
that is essentially a cult. And I remember from my time in a in
the fundamentalist charismatic church group. You know, you were I suppose the word
of the pastor was like the highest authority in the church. And so if
the pastor didn't like something, or if the pastor you know, said I
really would read that, I far were you. You know, it was
like anathema to read it. And so a lot of religions, I mean,
take Jehovah's witnesses who shun people for consuming ungodly like materials, or I
do the same. I was also going to say, though, that America
seems to be very very good at this, this fundamental fundamentalist religion in that
you know, you have you know, your Appalachian snake handlers, and you
have these you know, like the Amish. Actually I was going to say,
this is like the Amish, where the Armish will raise their children,
you know, up until they're eighteen, and then if I if I have
it correct, at eighteen, they let their children go for a year to
decide if they if they want to come back. Well, if you if
you've raised a child for eighteen years in a very strict in a very strict
way, and then let them go, of course they're going to struggle and
want to come back because you've taken away all their support. Yeah, there
at all, is what you're saying. Yeah, exactly exactly. So I
suppose to me like if a if a past read a book and the wife
goes, hey, you know what he as? You know, if the
wife was reading a book and the husband goes, you know, hey,
what's what's in that book? The right response to be, hey, honey,
is there anything interesting in that book that we could both learn? Not?
You know, take it away. I'm going to read it for you.
Here you go. You are allowed to otherwise, having cut out nasty
little words, but otherwise otherwise. It's essentially a marriage cult. And I
mean, I'm a married woman. I don't consider my marriage to be a
cult. I mean, did anyone else on the panel consider marriage to be
a cult. Do you think marriage is a cult? I'm not saying marriage.
Need to answer no to that question. Do you think marriage is a
cult? I'm no longer married. Like an answer, however, I want
you said you meant the religion, or at least his church, is a
cult of interpretation, his interpretation of the religon. Yeah, I'm just saying
marriage itself is a call. I'm saying that this marriage, this particular marriage,
in which information is controlled and even what the toilet breaks for the children
are controlled. That's a bit that is way weird. That's more than a
bit weird. That's just that is life of suburbia weird. I wonder if
he was just kind of using hyperbole at that point. But honestly, at
the same time, I was so surprised, like I thought when he said
he had the four people whose lives he controlled, I was so certain that
his wife was going to be one of those four people that I was surprised
to find out that his wife has four kids and not three. But he
does say in the video like they are my children, so he's talking about
his kids. But I was really surprised that so he doesn't even consider it
to be controlling her life. That's what that's saying. Yeah, exactly,
that's the more thing about it. Now here's a question for all three of
you. If she was doing it to him, would this be a more
shocking story? Would it be more shocking? I would be more surprised to
see that dynamic, especially with him being like in their culture, in their
religion, and in their circumstances. I would be surprised to see that dynamic.
Would I be surprised to learn of something like that happening? Generally speaking?
Not at all. No, I think that's absolutely within the realm of
reason. Yeah, it would be more surprising. It wouldn't be any more
offensive, but it would be more unusual. Would it be any less offensive?
You said it wouldn't be more offensive? Would be it would be equally
offensive? Yeah, I mean, Damien, would would it be more less
offensive? Would it be weird to see it? Would? It would definitely
be weird? And look, I agree, it's equally it's equally offensive because
you know, to me, a good marriage is where both partners are equal.
You know, you can equally share with each other, you know,
so to me, like a controlling. A controlling marriage is a controlling marriage.
You know, there's this, there is the trope that the wife,
you know, a happy wife, happy wife. You know which I mean.
Old marriage vowers used to say that the woman used to use to use
the word submit in the marriage house. I mean. Queen Elizabeth I Winston
Churchill famously tried to have the words submit removed from the marriage vows when married
the Duke of Edinburgh as he then became, because she was the head of
the Church of England and she could only be submitted to God, not to
a man on earth. When when my wife and I got married, we
we her. My wife's uncle, who was a minister, married us.
She'd always wanted to have that done. That was fine. I agreed with
that, and he gave us some vows that we could that we were intended
to build on. But we decided we were going to take out the obey.
There was love, honor, and obey, and we said, you
know, take that obey out. That's just that's going a little too far,
that's crossing the line for us, and so so yeah, so so
we didn't we didn't want to include that in our own commitment to each other.
It's such a strange concept if you think about it, like, I'm
going to choose a person to obey for the rest of my life? Right
would I want to do that? The problem is in American fundamentalist religion,
especially when you get to the idea of purity culture. The idea of you
know, a woman choosing a man to sit under as her authority. Isn't
that alien? Is that alien or strange? It's only it's only alien and
strange to us who have been in there and now outside of us will hold
I would a woman, you know, willingly sit under the authority of a
man for the rest of the rest of a life. Well, it reminds
me of the psychological concept of learned helplessness, Right, so learn helplessness.
You know, you know that there's nothing you can do about it, and
so you become helpless, kind of like in the Shah Shank Redemption, when
one of the older prisoners Brooks I think his name was he he gets out
and before they let him out, he actually tries to kill one of the
other prisoners because he doesn't want to leave. He doesn't know how, he
doesn't know how to deal with the world. He doesn't know how to interact,
and you know, he ends up harming himself. But but it's you
know, it's it's learned helpless helplessness. He's had that for such a long
time. She's had this for a long time. These families have had this,
this type of uh, this normality for a long time, and then
and they get used to it, and then they can't function outside of it.
I mean, in social services, there's a social work. There's another
concept called de skilling people. If you try to do everything for somebody because
you think you're helping them, but in the fact, you're actually de skilling
them. And I do hope that this has skilled you up to be a
bit more knowledgeable on this. And if you want to read more about this
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