WEBVTT 1 00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:25.760 Hello, and welcome to Western SIEV. In this bonus author interview, I 2 00:00:25.839 --> 00:00:31.559 sit down with a repeat guest, Adrian Goldsworthy. He's probably one of the 3 00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:38.280 premier ancients and classical historians in today's society. You may recall last time we 4 00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:42.880 chatted about Philip and his son. Maybe you've heard of him, Alexander the 5 00:00:42.920 --> 00:00:49.399 Great. This time we talk about the relationship that dominates the East West split 6 00:00:49.960 --> 00:00:56.039 really up to the rise of Islam, Rome and Persia Persia through its various 7 00:00:56.159 --> 00:01:00.079 permutations. The link to buy the book is in the show notes. But 8 00:01:00.119 --> 00:01:04.239 of course the relationship between Rome and Persia is one of the most important relationships 9 00:01:04.680 --> 00:01:10.480 in all of antiquity, at least when looking at the West. Today, 10 00:01:10.519 --> 00:01:14.840 I sit down with historian Goldsworthy and we talk about that relationship in great detail, 11 00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:19.400 and why it was so different from Rome's relationship compared to other kingdoms and 12 00:01:19.439 --> 00:01:25.480 states that it came into contact with, why one never could truly conquer the 13 00:01:25.560 --> 00:01:30.239 other, why this was to an extent a symbiotic relationship. We'll talk about 14 00:01:30.239 --> 00:01:52.799 all that and more in the interview right now. So back with historian Adrian 15 00:01:52.840 --> 00:01:56.319 Goldsworthy. As I mentioned moments ago, author of many many books that are 16 00:01:56.359 --> 00:02:00.239 sitting on my shelf right now. We did Philip and Alexander last time several 17 00:02:00.400 --> 00:02:06.799 years ago, and now we're back in the era of ancient Rome classical history. 18 00:02:06.959 --> 00:02:10.719 Are all of our favorites talking about Roman Persia's new book out, Roman 19 00:02:10.759 --> 00:02:15.599 Persia the Seven hundred Year Rivalry. And this is one of my favorites to 20 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:22.439 talk about because Rome and Persia, and we could talk about the Parthians versus 21 00:02:22.479 --> 00:02:27.240 the Persians later on, but they sort of define this East West rivalry for 22 00:02:27.319 --> 00:02:32.199 such a massive period of time that is so important. But I wanted to 23 00:02:32.199 --> 00:02:36.560 start out by asking about something that you bring up at the very beginning of 24 00:02:36.599 --> 00:02:40.280 the book, which is that the story of Roman Persia is so frequently told 25 00:02:40.639 --> 00:02:46.360 through Roman eyes and from the Roman perspective. And I wanted to ask you, 26 00:02:46.240 --> 00:02:49.439 first of all, why is that, although I think we all know 27 00:02:49.520 --> 00:02:53.120 the answer, But then secondly, more importantly, how does that maybe change 28 00:02:53.560 --> 00:03:00.879 how we understand this relationship in general? It's the old problem that you get 29 00:03:00.879 --> 00:03:04.800 the story from whoever chose to wrote it, to write it down, and 30 00:03:04.840 --> 00:03:08.639 then those manuscripts survived, so essentially nearly everything about the ancient world is told 31 00:03:08.680 --> 00:03:13.719 from a Greco Roman perspective. So you're talking about Alexander the Great conquering the 32 00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.159 Persian Empire. You never get in any meaningful way the Persian perspective, let 33 00:03:17.199 --> 00:03:23.120 alone that of Indian rulers and communities that he encounters when he's getting to the 34 00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:28.960 far eastern extent of his campaigns and conquests. So we always it's always told 35 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:32.639 by the Greeks and the Romans. You know, the odd variation you'll get 36 00:03:32.680 --> 00:03:37.599 in Roman history is where you might get the Jewish perspective. So Josephus is 37 00:03:37.639 --> 00:03:40.280 really the only person who writes in detail about what it's like to fight against 38 00:03:40.360 --> 00:03:44.759 the Roman army. Otherwise there's no one whoever does that. Even and you 39 00:03:44.759 --> 00:03:49.159 know there aren't surviving Greek sources. Polybius writes about the Romans on campaign, 40 00:03:49.199 --> 00:03:53.280 but he never writes of his own experiences. He's always looking from the Roman 41 00:03:53.479 --> 00:03:59.280 sidelines, from the Roman camp when he was physically present, So it's always 42 00:03:59.280 --> 00:04:01.039 told from the Greeks Roman's point of view. It's nearly always told from the 43 00:04:01.080 --> 00:04:04.479 Roman point of view once you get to the dominance of Rome, so that's 44 00:04:04.680 --> 00:04:11.919 inevitable. There are at least some sources that give you a sense of primarily 45 00:04:11.919 --> 00:04:17.600 Sicanian rather than Parthian memories of these conflicts, though much of it is filtered 46 00:04:17.680 --> 00:04:24.040 through tradition that isn't written down for centuries. So you have the medieval Islamic 47 00:04:24.040 --> 00:04:28.120 tradition that sometimes look back and remembers great Sasanian kings of kings. You have 48 00:04:28.199 --> 00:04:31.560 the Armenian tradition, which is a little older but is obviously naturally focused on 49 00:04:31.720 --> 00:04:36.319 Armenia and its issues rather than the empires in their own rights. So you 50 00:04:36.319 --> 00:04:40.040 know you're there, You're caught between them. They are useful to you, 51 00:04:40.079 --> 00:04:44.639 they are threats to you, and a mix of both. But it's so 52 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:47.519 that's interesting. And then there are a few documents that survive a few inscriptions. 53 00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.600 It is still, though overwhelmingly told from the Roman perspective and by authors 54 00:04:53.600 --> 00:04:57.399 writing in Latin or in Greek, occasionally later on in Syriac of these other 55 00:04:57.480 --> 00:05:01.399 languages as you get further on, But primarily it's that viewpoint. So that's 56 00:05:01.680 --> 00:05:05.800 a big, big problem. You are looking at a rivalry and a series 57 00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:13.399 of conflicts overwhelmingly from one person's point of view or one side's point of view, 58 00:05:14.160 --> 00:05:17.079 and it's much easier to trace the changes in perceptions of things on that 59 00:05:17.160 --> 00:05:23.399 side, how the Roman Empire alters and therefore how its attitudes change over the 60 00:05:23.439 --> 00:05:28.800 centuries. I think the only approach you can try to do that's fair is 61 00:05:28.839 --> 00:05:31.720 to ask the same questions of both sides, even if the evidence will often 62 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.720 leave you unable to answer them fully from the point of view of the Parthian 63 00:05:35.800 --> 00:05:40.879 or the Sesanians. So you look at them, you don't begin by saying, 64 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:43.480 okay, it's it's I mean, you know, it's the age old 65 00:05:43.480 --> 00:05:46.519 thing. If you look at Thucydides and it's normally presented as the Peloponnesian War, 66 00:05:47.000 --> 00:05:51.279 the war of Athens against the Peloponnesians, well that's not how the Spartans 67 00:05:51.279 --> 00:05:55.560 are thinking about this. For them, it's the Athenian War. So you 68 00:05:55.720 --> 00:06:00.360 have to remind yourself at every stage that we shouldn't automatically think the Romans are 69 00:06:00.399 --> 00:06:02.399 right, or the Romans are stronger, or the Romans are more sophisticated. 70 00:06:02.560 --> 00:06:09.639 We shouldn't also be looking for answers to why do the Romans lose on occasions 71 00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:13.000 any more than we should be looking for a wider the Parthians or the Persians 72 00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:18.240 win and vice versa when depending on the fortunes of the particular battle or campaign, 73 00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:21.839 whatever it might be. So I think it comes down to trying to 74 00:06:21.920 --> 00:06:28.720 understand these are two empires that are incredibly successful by any standards of human history. 75 00:06:29.040 --> 00:06:30.959 They are around for a very long time, they are very large. 76 00:06:31.279 --> 00:06:35.240 Yes, the Roman Empire is physically bigger, has more people, more resources 77 00:06:35.560 --> 00:06:40.959 than the Party and Sicanian Empire. But the Party in Sesenian Empire is still 78 00:06:41.160 --> 00:06:46.480 massive by any ancient standards. And when you think it's around for over eight 79 00:06:46.560 --> 00:06:49.519 centuries and it's in contact with the Romans for about seven hundred of those years, 80 00:06:50.079 --> 00:06:55.600 then this is success. You know, this is a sophisticated, efficient, 81 00:06:55.920 --> 00:07:00.680 successful ancient power, ancient regime, and rather like the Romans. That 82 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:02.199 doesn't mean you have to think they're nice or they're wonderful, but it means 83 00:07:02.240 --> 00:07:06.560 they are worth understanding, they are important, they have done something right by 84 00:07:06.600 --> 00:07:12.439 their standards to be so successful. So I think that's the only way that 85 00:07:12.480 --> 00:07:15.399 I felt you could approach it is to view them very much in that sense 86 00:07:15.439 --> 00:07:19.800 as two rivals, as too more or less equals, at least in the 87 00:07:19.839 --> 00:07:25.399 sense that they are the great powers around there's nothing else like them that either's 88 00:07:25.399 --> 00:07:29.000 in contact with. You've got China off further to the east. But although 89 00:07:29.000 --> 00:07:32.279 they have some contact with the parthy Ins Sesanians, they're not rivals, you 90 00:07:32.279 --> 00:07:35.480 know, They're never close enough to be a real challenge to each other. 91 00:07:36.920 --> 00:07:41.160 So it is down to these two and there is no one else out there 92 00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:46.000 in their world that can come anywhere close to them. So it's starting with 93 00:07:46.079 --> 00:07:50.360 that level of equality of similarity, the fact that both were aggressive expansionist empires, 94 00:07:50.360 --> 00:07:55.120 and then trying to understand each one in its own right, but particularly 95 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:59.000 in the relationship with the other. And I think that that makes a lot 96 00:07:59.040 --> 00:08:03.920 of sense. You know, reading the Western sources, which of course is 97 00:08:03.920 --> 00:08:07.600 what I grew up with, you know, you would you'd see you know, 98 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.680 Crassis as disaster at the Battle of Kerry, for example, and that's 99 00:08:11.120 --> 00:08:18.279 that's portrayed as an unmitigated defeat and disaster. It's not portrayed as a magnificent 100 00:08:18.079 --> 00:08:22.560 Parthian victory, which perhaps is how would have been portrayed if we had more 101 00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:26.120 sources from the other side. I think the other thing that's worth pointing out. 102 00:08:26.439 --> 00:08:30.920 I like the word rivalry in this book, and I kept coming back 103 00:08:30.920 --> 00:08:35.360 to it for two reasons. First of all, Rome doesn't really have another 104 00:08:35.480 --> 00:08:39.159 rival, and neither do the Parthian Persians on it. You know, we'll 105 00:08:39.200 --> 00:08:43.919 just we can use all the terms, but they just don't like they there's 106 00:08:43.000 --> 00:08:48.039 no one else. Yes, of course, ultimately various Germanic kingdoms are going 107 00:08:48.120 --> 00:08:50.639 to bring down the West, but that's not really a rivalry. There's not 108 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:54.799 really a back and forth. And the other thing I think is important here 109 00:08:54.879 --> 00:09:00.279 is that this isn't this is not an ideological conflict, and I think it's 110 00:09:00.360 --> 00:09:03.879 kind of a mistake to put it in that way. Like we tend to 111 00:09:03.639 --> 00:09:09.360 view the conflict, especially in modern terms between sort of West and maybe Islamic 112 00:09:09.399 --> 00:09:13.399 East, is as one that's driven by ideology, and that's not the case 113 00:09:13.960 --> 00:09:16.879 back then, is I can't you can't really say that the Romans are the 114 00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:22.200 good guys in this, you know practice, the Romans practiced slavery on an 115 00:09:22.279 --> 00:09:26.919 unprecedented scale. It's horrifyingly brutal culture. Yeah, there's a lot to that 116 00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:31.759 we can admire about them, but they're not. It's not it's not the 117 00:09:31.799 --> 00:09:35.240 same thing as looking at sort of the axis versus the allied powers in World 118 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:37.639 War Two. I don't. I don't think you could paint it that way. 119 00:09:37.759 --> 00:09:41.559 So that's why I think the word rivalry really makes a lot of sense. 120 00:09:43.080 --> 00:09:45.840 I guess the first question that I wanted to ask, because I have 121 00:09:45.879 --> 00:09:48.399 a bunch of questions kind of about this idea, and the first one is 122 00:09:50.639 --> 00:09:56.759 when did like both sides recognize that the other was different, different in terms 123 00:09:56.799 --> 00:10:01.919 of, Okay, this is a rival that may we're just simply not going 124 00:10:01.960 --> 00:10:05.679 to be able to conquer and we're going to have to learn to coexist with 125 00:10:05.759 --> 00:10:11.840 them. At some point did they come to that understanding simultaneously at about the 126 00:10:11.879 --> 00:10:15.840 same time? Was there back and forth? Like when did that sort of 127 00:10:15.919 --> 00:10:22.159 mutual existence develop? I mean, it's most obvious in the age of Augustus, 128 00:10:22.200 --> 00:10:24.600 So you're talking end of the first century BC, early first century AD. 129 00:10:26.080 --> 00:10:30.120 Because Augustus, in spite of all the things that poets like Horace and 130 00:10:30.159 --> 00:10:33.000 others are talking about, these great parthy and victories, the conquest. You 131 00:10:33.039 --> 00:10:33.799 know, you're going to go to India, You're going to be the new 132 00:10:33.840 --> 00:10:37.039 Alexander or one of your children will be all this sort of thing never does. 133 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:43.519 It makes no serious attempt whatever to launch even the war that Julius Caesar 134 00:10:43.600 --> 00:10:46.559 was supposed to be planning and preparing when he was murdered, this great expedition 135 00:10:46.600 --> 00:10:50.519 against the Parthians, and we don't really know because it didn't happen what he 136 00:10:50.679 --> 00:10:54.200 planned. So I think there is an element. But one thing to remember. 137 00:10:54.240 --> 00:10:58.240 We know this rivalry is going to go on for all these centuries, 138 00:10:58.320 --> 00:11:01.159 and we know these empires are going to exist for all this time. But 139 00:11:01.279 --> 00:11:07.799 when you think the first contact comes in the nineties BC, the first war 140 00:11:07.879 --> 00:11:13.480 is in fifty four BC when Crisus attacks and gets defeated here later, but 141 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:18.879 it all happens at a time when the Seleucid Empire has only just shriveled up 142 00:11:18.919 --> 00:11:22.000 finally and gone, and Pompey's just abolished it. I mean, it's got 143 00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:24.200 smaller and smaller, but it is one of the oddities. And it comes 144 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:30.159 back to this sense of you can't break this down into a simple East and 145 00:11:30.200 --> 00:11:33.960 West rivalry other than you know, there's some basic facts of geography, but 146 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.519 beyond that, because in the middle you have that area that was ruled by 147 00:11:37.559 --> 00:11:43.919 the Seleucids for several centuries, the largest chunk of the Asian part of Alexander's 148 00:11:43.960 --> 00:11:48.360 conquests. That has a lot of Greek communities, but it also has lots 149 00:11:48.360 --> 00:11:54.159 of other people's as well, and in its entirety that is never taken by 150 00:11:54.200 --> 00:11:56.159 either of these new empires, the Parthians or the Romans who come along. 151 00:11:56.360 --> 00:12:00.200 They sort of cut it down the middle. And there are a lot lots 152 00:12:00.279 --> 00:12:03.840 of communities like Selucia on the Tigris, which next to Alexander and Antioch, 153 00:12:03.960 --> 00:12:07.840 is the biggest Greek city in the world, and it's never part of the 154 00:12:07.919 --> 00:12:09.360 Roman Empire. You know, they take it a few times, but it's 155 00:12:09.399 --> 00:12:15.960 always Parthian and then Sicanian, and they still have Greek law, Greek tradition, 156 00:12:16.159 --> 00:12:18.919 all of these ideas that whatever the ethnicity, culturally, there is still 157 00:12:18.919 --> 00:12:22.639 this perception that this community. Now if you're looking at things in a sort 158 00:12:22.679 --> 00:12:28.519 of where a natural boundaries where that shouldn't be there, or if it is, 159 00:12:28.600 --> 00:12:35.200 then Syria has more in common with Selucia than it does necessarily with Libya 160 00:12:35.320 --> 00:12:37.320 or something like that, or much of the Roman Empire. So it cuts 161 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.879 down the middle this political grouping that has lasted again for a long time, 162 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:46.879 and that's the other reminder. Both of them are new powers in the area. 163 00:12:48.360 --> 00:12:52.519 You know, the Romans start intervening, they prod around, they get 164 00:12:52.519 --> 00:12:54.919 involved this big war with Mithridates of Pontus in the first century BC. That 165 00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:00.720 sort of spreads to Armenia and other areas around, and Roman command will march 166 00:13:00.759 --> 00:13:03.840 around. The Parthians have been coming from the other direction but doing much the 167 00:13:03.840 --> 00:13:07.480 same thing. They've expanded quickly, but they've started to overrun these and they 168 00:13:07.480 --> 00:13:15.320 are piecing together an empire that isn't again a sort of simple entity waiting to 169 00:13:15.360 --> 00:13:18.840 be united under one rule. Yes, it has a large part of what 170 00:13:18.000 --> 00:13:22.559 had been the Achemenid Persian Empire, but it doesn't have Syria, Palestine, 171 00:13:22.559 --> 00:13:26.600 Egypt, all the areas which were part of that. And you know, 172 00:13:26.759 --> 00:13:30.720 there are brief attems, but they don't get that. So nobody is taking 173 00:13:30.759 --> 00:13:35.480 over something that is is naturally there or you know, you can see the 174 00:13:35.519 --> 00:13:39.279 outline of what should be this this regime, these provinces, this region controlled 175 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:45.559 united under one authority. So they're both expanding and I think there is a 176 00:13:45.559 --> 00:13:50.240 shock there. It strikes me if you look at the Kahi campaign, if 177 00:13:50.240 --> 00:13:54.759 you look at the campaigns of marc Antony and others in those first few decades 178 00:13:54.759 --> 00:14:00.480 of conflict when they actually fight quite a lot, but then it down. 179 00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:07.519 Both sides are very confident in themselves because both are the great power. They 180 00:14:07.559 --> 00:14:11.200 are people who've got used to winning that any other foreigner you meet and fight, 181 00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:15.720 you will probably prove that you're superior. And this is the same era 182 00:14:15.759 --> 00:14:18.960 when Caesar has been charging around Gall and crossing the Rhine and coming to Britain, 183 00:14:18.000 --> 00:14:20.919 all this sort of thing. The Romans are expanding. They're used to 184 00:14:20.919 --> 00:14:24.759 the fact they're better at fighting than anybody else out there. But the Parthians 185 00:14:24.759 --> 00:14:28.279 have exactly the same perception, and it's a bit of a shock to find 186 00:14:28.360 --> 00:14:35.240 someone who is rather more dangerous and has a depth to their power that simply 187 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.720 defeating them once or twice isn't going to be enough to bring them down. 188 00:14:39.320 --> 00:14:43.240 So I suspect early on there is probably a sense that anything could happen, 189 00:14:43.159 --> 00:14:48.480 and that's why you have Crasus declaring he's going to march on Selucia. Doesn't 190 00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:52.279 necessarily mean him plan to conquer Parthia anymore than you could say Julius Caesar is 191 00:14:52.279 --> 00:14:56.240 actually planning on conquering Gall. He wants to extend Roman dominance, but that 192 00:14:56.279 --> 00:15:01.879 doesn't necessarily mean permanent occupation per provinces. It just means that everybody becomes your 193 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.200 ally and knows their place, and there's no other competitor within that region. 194 00:15:07.080 --> 00:15:16.360 And then by forty BC you've got the Parthians overrunning Syria, overrunning capturing Jerusalem, 195 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:18.960 and pushing to the coast because they think, well, maybe we can 196 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.960 do this, and it takes those early campaigns where both sides suffer serious defeats. 197 00:15:24.320 --> 00:15:28.759 We know a lot about Krhai because the Roman sources that survive talk about 198 00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.799 it, though again they're written quite a lot later. It's assumed a prominence 199 00:15:31.840 --> 00:15:37.440 that perhaps it didn't really have. For much of Roman history, we don't 200 00:15:37.519 --> 00:15:43.159 hear very much about the defeats of the Parthians by Ventidius, which involved the 201 00:15:43.279 --> 00:15:48.080 death of the crown prince of Parthia. That the king of king's favorite son 202 00:15:48.360 --> 00:15:52.000 gets himself killed fighting the Romans, is beheaded, his head is paraded around 203 00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:56.600 the recently reoccupied cities of Syria. You know, it's even it's a scene 204 00:15:56.639 --> 00:15:58.679 that nearly always gets cut, but it's even in Shakespeare's as the a Cleopatri 205 00:16:00.240 --> 00:16:03.600 that far. So there's a sort of shock factor that suddenly, and I 206 00:16:03.639 --> 00:16:07.480 think there's a learning process where people start to think, oh, actually, 207 00:16:08.080 --> 00:16:11.480 these aren't a pushover. From the pathy of perspective, the Romans are a 208 00:16:11.480 --> 00:16:15.440 lot tougher than anyone else they've met. This is not a declining Solucid kingdom 209 00:16:15.679 --> 00:16:18.600 that we can beat in the end. This is something bigger. They've got 210 00:16:18.679 --> 00:16:22.480 lots more soldiers, they'll keep coming back. And the Romans have also realized 211 00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:27.600 that these people are dangerous because the Emperor Augustus doesn't fight a big Parthian war, 212 00:16:27.960 --> 00:16:33.039 but he fights wars all over Europe and in western parts of North Africa, 213 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:37.120 so he will fight lots of aggressive campaigns. He adds lots of territory 214 00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:40.879 to the Roman Empire, consolidates areas where the Romans had intervened, but he 215 00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:45.399 doesn't do that very noticeably in the East. So I think there's there may 216 00:16:45.399 --> 00:16:49.039 be an element of personal recognition of somebody shrewdly sort of looking at the costs 217 00:16:49.039 --> 00:16:52.840 of the benefits and saying, well, I can get the glory I need 218 00:16:52.879 --> 00:16:57.240 over here and it's less risky. Whereas if I go that way, where 219 00:16:57.240 --> 00:17:00.919 do I stop? I mean, one thing we always forget, And I 220 00:17:00.960 --> 00:17:07.160 wrote this book very consciously, having just done Philip and Alexander before. Yes, 221 00:17:07.240 --> 00:17:11.559 the Romans don't necessarily have recent detailed geographical knowledge of large parts of the 222 00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.680 Parthian Empire one beyond, but they have that memory of Alexander. They do 223 00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:19.680 know how far the world stretches that way, They do know that all these 224 00:17:19.720 --> 00:17:22.000 lands are out there, and they do know how rugged some of the terran 225 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:26.240 is, how difficulty is. So it isn't you know that Sometimes you get 226 00:17:26.279 --> 00:17:29.920 from modern scholars this perception they have very little sense of geography and they don't 227 00:17:29.960 --> 00:17:33.640 really know. They think they could conquer the world. I think they actually 228 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.839 know that while Alexander's tried that and they didn't quite you know, it didn't 229 00:17:36.920 --> 00:17:41.119 last. Yes it's glorious, but we know what's involved, just how far 230 00:17:41.680 --> 00:17:44.319 we'd have to go, and how big these people might you know, how 231 00:17:44.319 --> 00:17:48.319 big this empire might be. So I think that comes together with this sense 232 00:17:48.519 --> 00:17:52.400 very quickly. Because the dominant pattern for the First Entry AD is that while 233 00:17:52.440 --> 00:17:57.599 there are moments of tension and some limited campaigning in Armenia under Nero, they 234 00:17:57.599 --> 00:18:04.279 don't fight. The two great empires effectively coexist nervously, perhaps with great suspicion 235 00:18:04.599 --> 00:18:08.119 with lots of saber rattling on each side, and Augustus claims that the Parthians 236 00:18:08.119 --> 00:18:12.440 have submitted to him, builds this big arch in the forum, just as 237 00:18:12.440 --> 00:18:17.119 you can go and look at Chapa the first triumphal monuments where he talks about 238 00:18:17.160 --> 00:18:19.480 these vast Roman armies he's defeated. You know, both need to be taken 239 00:18:19.519 --> 00:18:22.440 with the same pinch of salt, because this is a great leader telling his 240 00:18:22.559 --> 00:18:26.160 people how great he is, and they're the home audience. They don't know 241 00:18:26.200 --> 00:18:29.799 the details, and even if they do, they're not going to say anything. 242 00:18:30.000 --> 00:18:33.720 So it's trying to it's reminding us als, but I think it's actually 243 00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:40.640 it probably takes a generation, but I think remarkably quickly they do seem to 244 00:18:40.680 --> 00:18:45.079 realize that this is something different, This is something that is so much stronger 245 00:18:45.559 --> 00:18:48.200 that you have to be a lot more careful in what you do. But 246 00:18:48.440 --> 00:18:52.759 neither also seems to have this great ambition to just keep on conquering until there's 247 00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:57.559 nothing left to conquer. So it tells us something about how aggressive states in 248 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:03.039 this period work in that they they are willing to see that there are limits 249 00:19:03.079 --> 00:19:07.759 to what's useful what's what's worth doing. Well, yeah, I mean there 250 00:19:07.799 --> 00:19:11.480 has to be something worth taking. You know, the Romans looked at a 251 00:19:11.519 --> 00:19:18.000 lot of areas and said, plus, it's not worth the trouble of why 252 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:21.480 would we march south of the Sahara, for example, Like, what would 253 00:19:21.519 --> 00:19:25.400 be the purpose of that. There's there's no reason to do so. And 254 00:19:25.720 --> 00:19:27.640 I do think, you know, I tend to go back to if you 255 00:19:27.640 --> 00:19:32.000 talk about sort of this the idea of sort of personal emperors, And I 256 00:19:32.039 --> 00:19:36.680 do wonder also if there's sort of a transition in mindset as we go from 257 00:19:36.720 --> 00:19:40.559 republic to principal, you know, where you know, there's no longer this 258 00:19:40.759 --> 00:19:45.400 need to drive your own standing through military success in glory anymore. And if 259 00:19:45.480 --> 00:19:49.279 Rome remains a republic and it's in its current sense, do we launch endless 260 00:19:49.319 --> 00:19:53.920 campaigns to try to replicate the efforts of Alexander? Who? Yes, I 261 00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:57.160 mean I think that that's that's important. You know, Alexander, you know, 262 00:19:57.359 --> 00:20:03.240 had to string up a reas of victories against the Achemenid Empire. It 263 00:20:03.279 --> 00:20:06.720 wasn't just one and done, which is the way that it is in a 264 00:20:06.759 --> 00:20:11.119 lot of other states. You know, these are two empires who can take 265 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.680 a punch, and that is a big deal to that extent, And you 266 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:21.279 know, I kind of think of sometimes the transition between Trajan and Hadrian. 267 00:20:21.720 --> 00:20:25.720 You know, Trajan is sort of the last Roman emperor to say I'm gonna 268 00:20:25.799 --> 00:20:30.279 I'm gonna roll the dice on this, and Hadrian looks at it and says, 269 00:20:30.839 --> 00:20:36.519 nah, this is this isn't worth it. What are we trying to 270 00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:40.720 hold on to so far away from the heart of our empire. It's going 271 00:20:40.799 --> 00:20:44.160 to cost far more than it is. Give it back to them and and 272 00:20:44.599 --> 00:20:48.599 go back receive some areas. Sign one of those treaties that I love that 273 00:20:48.640 --> 00:20:52.039 the you know people sign in the ancient engine classical world of this is a 274 00:20:52.079 --> 00:20:56.519 treaty of perpetual peace, which is then broken two years later. And I 275 00:20:56.519 --> 00:20:57.519 mean, you just you get this all the way, you get this all 276 00:20:57.559 --> 00:21:00.240 the way up to the early modern aid. I mean, you know, 277 00:21:00.319 --> 00:21:04.119 France is the first and Charles the fifth are still doing it in the in 278 00:21:04.160 --> 00:21:10.279 the sixteenth century. So it's a lot of it's ludicrous. But sometimes I 279 00:21:10.599 --> 00:21:12.039 do wonder. And the next question that I had about this is like, 280 00:21:12.839 --> 00:21:18.279 was there also just sort of a uniqueness in terms of the way these two 281 00:21:18.319 --> 00:21:23.599 empires organized their fighting forces that made it to such that it made it a 282 00:21:23.599 --> 00:21:29.000 lot easier for either to win on their home turf, their home field, 283 00:21:29.000 --> 00:21:32.359 and a lot more difficult to win, you know, when they were the 284 00:21:32.480 --> 00:21:36.319 visitor. You know, it was a lot harder for Roman legions to march 285 00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.519 into the Iranian plateau, and a lot more difficult maybe for Cisonid or Parthian 286 00:21:44.240 --> 00:21:49.440 step horse archers to go into the dense Balkans and be successful. I've always 287 00:21:49.440 --> 00:21:55.759 wondered if there's something to that sort of uniqueness of military styles that it just 288 00:21:55.759 --> 00:21:59.720 didn't lend itself to either conquering the other. What do you think about that? 289 00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:04.359 It's very difficult because there are so many gaps in our knowledge when it 290 00:22:04.359 --> 00:22:07.240 comes to the military side. I mean, it had never really struck me 291 00:22:07.319 --> 00:22:14.440 in quite just the extent to which we have descriptions of the Battle of Kai 292 00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:18.000 fifty three BC. Prass's is defeated. We've got Plutarch, We've got Dio, 293 00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:22.920 who seems rather more confused, more impressionistic. Plutarch's account, by Plutarch 294 00:22:22.960 --> 00:22:27.400 standards, is pretty good and seems reasonably plausible, reasonably logical. We then 295 00:22:27.559 --> 00:22:33.319 have to jump until procopious talking about the sixth century AD before we have another 296 00:22:33.440 --> 00:22:37.599 battle description that's anything like is detailed, and we know they fight lots of 297 00:22:37.640 --> 00:22:40.599 battles, and we know the Romans wind sun, the Parthians or the Persians 298 00:22:40.640 --> 00:22:47.839 win others, but they're not described. So we sometimes can jump to conclusions 299 00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:53.279 about the military systems which are based on very little understanding of how these campaigns 300 00:22:53.279 --> 00:22:56.759 played out. Now you can step back and say, well, it's all 301 00:22:56.799 --> 00:23:00.480 the sort of the military systems. So the number of soldiers you can journal 302 00:23:00.559 --> 00:23:03.480 rate, how well you can supply them, how effectively they will fight in 303 00:23:03.559 --> 00:23:07.480 these environments is limited. But on the other hand, Alexander has steamed through 304 00:23:07.599 --> 00:23:11.599 a Persian empire with effectively an infantry based army. Yes, he gets lots 305 00:23:11.640 --> 00:23:15.279 of cavalry. They're important, but there are always a small minority of the 306 00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.640 overall force, perhaps until you get to the latest stages where he's picked up 307 00:23:18.680 --> 00:23:22.519 all these various nomads and horse archers and other types by the time he's pushing 308 00:23:22.519 --> 00:23:26.279 into India. So infantry armies can do really well. And of course one 309 00:23:26.319 --> 00:23:33.160 of the solutions have done quite well fighting against the Parthians and then suffered defeats 310 00:23:33.160 --> 00:23:36.359 in other battles. It depends on how well you manage things. So I 311 00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:38.240 used to come from this point of view because I very much you know, 312 00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:41.799 my early research was all onto the Roman army. How do And I thought, 313 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:44.279 well, yeah, maybe this is a lot of people had said. 314 00:23:44.279 --> 00:23:48.279 It's simply the legions can't function in that area, but they adapt to all 315 00:23:48.359 --> 00:23:52.480 sorts of other environments and function very well. Now, obviously the difference is 316 00:23:52.519 --> 00:23:56.240 that the resources of the Parthians are considerably larger. Again, coming back to 317 00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.039 the point you made a few moments ago talking about the Persians, you don't 318 00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:03.079 they don't just fold. If you win one battle, they can form another 319 00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:07.839 army, they could replace it. I found looking at the sort of the 320 00:24:07.920 --> 00:24:11.400 longer term, is that it's interesting how the two sides seem to adapt. 321 00:24:11.839 --> 00:24:15.440 Now again we see it most from the Roman side, But if you look 322 00:24:15.480 --> 00:24:18.920 at the army of the first century AD, the Roman army, it's moved 323 00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:22.799 from being the purely legion based or primarily legion based force. You've got all 324 00:24:22.799 --> 00:24:29.279 these auxiliaries. You've got very large quantities of archers on foot, of horse 325 00:24:29.400 --> 00:24:34.799 archers, and looking at the Armenian campaigns described by Tacitus and Veniro's reign, 326 00:24:36.200 --> 00:24:38.319 the Romans seem pretty much most of the time able to march where they like, 327 00:24:38.359 --> 00:24:42.720 besiege what they like. Now Armenia is different country to other parts. 328 00:24:42.799 --> 00:24:47.359 And obviously, yes, we never find out about what the Romans would do 329 00:24:47.400 --> 00:24:51.559 if they'd got into the Iranian heartland, because they don't try it and they 330 00:24:51.599 --> 00:24:55.960 don't push that. Could they have adapted to those circumstances. Perhaps, perhaps 331 00:24:56.000 --> 00:25:02.400 not, But there is an ability, and you see it the other side 332 00:25:02.440 --> 00:25:06.079 in that there's this emphasis. The classic Parthian warrior, as far as the 333 00:25:06.160 --> 00:25:08.200 Romans are concerned the Greeks are concerned, is the horse archer, the man 334 00:25:08.200 --> 00:25:11.839 who shoots you, then gallops away and shoots you a bit more and keeps 335 00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.240 on wearing you down, but doesn't get close until you're very weak. The 336 00:25:15.240 --> 00:25:21.599 classic Sasanian warrior is the heavily armored Climinarius catafract whatever he might be, who 337 00:25:21.680 --> 00:25:23.559 might still be using a bow, but he's using it from much closer range, 338 00:25:23.559 --> 00:25:27.759 and he certainly isn't trotting away and then coming back at you. He 339 00:25:29.000 --> 00:25:32.880 goes toe to toe. He'll shoot you first at close range and then eventually 340 00:25:32.880 --> 00:25:37.119 he'll come in with sword or mace. So and you've got then the prominence 341 00:25:37.119 --> 00:25:38.519 of war elephants and the like. So you've got an army that's changed, 342 00:25:38.559 --> 00:25:41.359 you do. Yes, it's still primarily cavalry, or at least it's most 343 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:45.720 prestigious and important part, but it's fighting in a very different way, in 344 00:25:45.799 --> 00:25:51.200 the same way that the Roman army will eventually develop into the sort of precopious 345 00:25:51.279 --> 00:25:55.720 army and the army of the strategicon, which is predominantly cavalry at least in 346 00:25:55.759 --> 00:26:03.200 its aggressive arm and its battlefield arm So think, actually it's it's it's more 347 00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:07.759 that at this higher level they realize that the scale of a war against the 348 00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.039 other is just too risky. And it's not I don't think that either things. 349 00:26:11.079 --> 00:26:12.960 We couldn't do it. It's just it's too much, it's not worth 350 00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.599 it. It comes back to your you know, the Augustine tag that he 351 00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:21.000 doesn't want reckless generals. He compares them to fishing with a golden hook. 352 00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:25.039 This idea, you know, it's simply any gain you can possibly get is 353 00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:29.799 not worth the risk that just if you do lose. So I think there's 354 00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:33.839 there's a difference, but it is deeply frustrating. And you mentioned Trajan, 355 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.400 these major campaigns that break that tradition of the first century a d. When 356 00:26:37.400 --> 00:26:42.079 you haven't gone deep into parthy and territory at all, and you certainly haven't 357 00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:47.200 fought these major expeditions. Trajan suddenly does that for a couple of years, 358 00:26:47.599 --> 00:26:52.400 and there's all sorts of interesting questions about why. But the big problem is 359 00:26:52.440 --> 00:26:56.720 we don't know the sources for that period. Those campaigns are atrocious. You 360 00:26:56.079 --> 00:27:00.039 have you don't have even have dire. You have an epitome of written centuries 361 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.480 later that's very brief, very confused. You've got bits from the Historia Augusta, 362 00:27:04.640 --> 00:27:07.160 and you're using this stuff in the same way that when you come to 363 00:27:07.240 --> 00:27:12.880 Lucius Verus's campaign in the earliess of Marcus Aurelius's reign, where again the Romans 364 00:27:12.880 --> 00:27:18.480 will go right down the Tigris Euphrates valley, we end up relying on Lucian 365 00:27:18.759 --> 00:27:25.079 and his satire of the terrible military histories he viewed the of this campaign to 366 00:27:25.160 --> 00:27:27.279 try and piece together what the heck is going on, because we just don't 367 00:27:27.319 --> 00:27:32.759 know, so I'd like it would be wonderful to know more about that development 368 00:27:32.839 --> 00:27:34.920 what has changed. Why do the Romans suddenly get more aggressive? Apparently? 369 00:27:36.799 --> 00:27:40.279 How are the Parthian armies fighting? Because the Sasanians will spring up in the 370 00:27:40.279 --> 00:27:44.279 third century and look a bit different in the way they conduct things, most 371 00:27:44.319 --> 00:27:47.839 of all because they could suddenly they're very good at sieges in a way that 372 00:27:47.880 --> 00:27:51.880 Parthian armies have not seemed to be, and that is an extra dimension in 373 00:27:51.880 --> 00:27:53.680 the warfare. It was something again going back to Philip and Alexandra, I 374 00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:57.319 wanted to emphasize with them that once you get an army like that that can 375 00:27:57.359 --> 00:28:03.039 actually take wall stronghold and walled cities, they can make their victories far more 376 00:28:03.079 --> 00:28:06.400 permanent because you can't just go back and hide behind your walls and wait for 377 00:28:06.440 --> 00:28:10.680 them to run out of food and go away. Suddenly there is no refuge, 378 00:28:10.720 --> 00:28:14.359 because they will come for you. Now the Romans fight in a similar 379 00:28:14.400 --> 00:28:15.960 pattern. At least the Romans by the time you get even to Crasus this 380 00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.279 day, let alone the Imperial army, they're very good engineers, they're very 381 00:28:19.279 --> 00:28:25.480 good at siege craft anise. Initially the Parthians don't seem to have matching skills, 382 00:28:25.480 --> 00:28:27.799 but by the time you get to the third century, the Sasanians do, 383 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.279 and by the time you get to the fourth century and amianas, there's 384 00:28:32.440 --> 00:28:37.359 very little difference between the way the Persians and the Romans actually go about attacking 385 00:28:37.720 --> 00:28:41.640 walled strongholds and walled cities, and the wars between them are dominated by sieges, 386 00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.759 not battles. So the armies have become very similar, so that none 387 00:28:45.799 --> 00:28:49.119 of this is static. Things develop at every stage, and there is probably 388 00:28:49.240 --> 00:28:53.799 more back and forth. Somebody has an innovation than the other side thinks of, 389 00:28:53.880 --> 00:28:56.920 okay, maybe we can get around this by doing that to regain the 390 00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:00.519 advantage, and perhaps that works. Perhaps it does, or they copy something 391 00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:07.599 the other one does. So there's probably you can see the broad outline of 392 00:29:07.640 --> 00:29:11.640 that going on, but you can't see all the detail. And again it's 393 00:29:11.680 --> 00:29:15.920 a danger doing one of these sort of long, long range studies, really, 394 00:29:15.960 --> 00:29:21.119 but we forget how many lifetimes and how many incidents are taking place. 395 00:29:21.200 --> 00:29:25.240 And then again you step back and you realize that actually warfare at any time 396 00:29:25.519 --> 00:29:27.440 is the exception. Most of the time, they're not fighting each other at 397 00:29:27.480 --> 00:29:33.680 all. And I think that that's the important part of one of the aspects 398 00:29:33.680 --> 00:29:36.440 of the title of the book, which is you know, the seven hundred 399 00:29:36.519 --> 00:29:42.160 year rivalry. This isn't that both sides to an extent have the benefit of 400 00:29:42.279 --> 00:29:49.400 time. They have the benefit of understanding your opponent and adapting into the different 401 00:29:49.440 --> 00:29:56.079 ways that they do things. If you look for opposite to the collapse of 402 00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:00.480 the Achemenid Empire, an empire that had lasted several hundred years, you know, 403 00:30:00.519 --> 00:30:04.599 Alexander sort of explodes out of Macedon with this highly professional army. And 404 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:11.920 yes, you know, Derius is able to hire Greek mercenaries to try to 405 00:30:11.720 --> 00:30:18.319 combat these elite sarissa wielding warriors, but they're just not up to the task, 406 00:30:18.440 --> 00:30:22.119 and there's no time. There's no time to sort of if you I 407 00:30:22.200 --> 00:30:27.119 sort of the equivalent that I give is sort of an old boxing match where 408 00:30:27.359 --> 00:30:30.960 you know, Mike Tyson would explode out of the corner and three or four 409 00:30:32.000 --> 00:30:34.640 punches later, the opponent is down. There's no time to sort of get 410 00:30:34.680 --> 00:30:38.559 your feet under you. They're just coming at you too quickly. With the 411 00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:44.319 Romans and the Parthians and then the Sosanids, they have the time to sort 412 00:30:44.359 --> 00:30:48.440 of adapt to one another. And the siege aspect that you bring up is 413 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:53.960 so critically important like, yes, battles of course matter in the pre modern 414 00:30:55.000 --> 00:31:00.359 age especially, but it's actually pretty rare that a kingdom is simply knocked out, 415 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.400 even by a decisive defeat on the battlefield. And I think the best 416 00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:08.680 example of that that would be probably the Byzantines that you just can't take Constantinople. 417 00:31:08.759 --> 00:31:11.720 You just can't. You know, they try and they try and they 418 00:31:11.759 --> 00:31:14.440 try, but you can't crack those walls. So if you don't have the 419 00:31:14.440 --> 00:31:17.119 capacity to do that, then it just doesn't matter. You know, you 420 00:31:17.160 --> 00:31:18.880 can march around, but you're going to run out of food at some point, 421 00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:22.839 you're going to have to go home. So without the ability to take 422 00:31:22.880 --> 00:31:25.920 those major cities, and that sort of leads me to my next question, 423 00:31:25.920 --> 00:31:30.960 because if you back up and you look at the maps here, I come 424 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.880 to the conclusion and I don't know, I honestly don't. I don't know 425 00:31:34.920 --> 00:31:41.880 how much the Parthians slash the Sonids knew of Europe and European geography and what 426 00:31:41.960 --> 00:31:45.519 that looked like. I mean, they maybe have had no conception of what 427 00:31:45.559 --> 00:31:51.559 would become Great Britain. But you look at the map and you simply come 428 00:31:51.559 --> 00:31:55.839 to the conclusion that there is no way at least I do that either of 429 00:31:55.880 --> 00:32:00.000 these empires could have ever conclusively knocked the other one out. There's too many 430 00:32:00.119 --> 00:32:04.559 choke points. From the Hellaspant, you know, then you have to get 431 00:32:04.599 --> 00:32:07.119 around the Balkans, and from the opposite side for the Romans, you have 432 00:32:07.200 --> 00:32:13.400 to get into the Iranian plateau, and that's mostly desert. It just seems 433 00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:15.559 impossible to me. I mean, what do you think about that? It 434 00:32:15.599 --> 00:32:19.960 just seems like neither of these two ever could have knocked the other one out. 435 00:32:21.799 --> 00:32:22.759 I think you're probably right. I mean, they might have done it, 436 00:32:22.759 --> 00:32:28.279 but it would have taken decades and huge effort, and everything would have 437 00:32:28.319 --> 00:32:32.119 had to keep on going your way, and that's simply not in the interest 438 00:32:32.240 --> 00:32:36.200 of any king of kings or emperors. You know, why do this for? 439 00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:37.839 In the end, what will you get an empire that's probably too large 440 00:32:37.839 --> 00:32:43.759 to be manageable. I think they look at smaller ambitions that are still quite 441 00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.039 big. I mean, even if you look at you know, Treasure was 442 00:32:46.079 --> 00:32:52.279 supposed to be planning perhaps beginning the administration of a province of Assyria. Whenever 443 00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:54.920 that meant, you know, he's taken Armenia, he's developing this, but 444 00:32:55.000 --> 00:33:01.119 this is all within less than three years of campaigning before it all goes horribly 445 00:33:01.119 --> 00:33:06.200 wrong. But even if you'd taken that, and even if you stretched our 446 00:33:06.200 --> 00:33:10.279 mean an if you said he wanted testifon Salucia, those big cities down there, 447 00:33:10.799 --> 00:33:15.680 then that still leaves eighty percent of the Parthian empire. Yes, you've 448 00:33:15.720 --> 00:33:22.519 taken a big chunk of population and a bit that is probably most most similar 449 00:33:22.559 --> 00:33:25.759 to you, but an area you could probably assimilate because it's it's cities, 450 00:33:25.960 --> 00:33:29.880 at least one of them, a big Greek city that you can understand. 451 00:33:30.200 --> 00:33:31.519 You know how those work, you know how they administer, you know how 452 00:33:31.559 --> 00:33:35.799 they think. You've put Plenty of those still run their own affairs, but 453 00:33:35.799 --> 00:33:38.119 they're part of your empire. And I think there's an element of back and 454 00:33:38.119 --> 00:33:43.680 forth that the Parthians and then the Persians could go so far thinking well, 455 00:33:43.720 --> 00:33:45.799 we know what these people are like, we know how this works, we 456 00:33:45.799 --> 00:33:52.359 can manage this. But you know you have apart from in the that forty 457 00:33:52.359 --> 00:33:54.799 one forty PC when they do look as if they're going into Syria and maybe 458 00:33:54.799 --> 00:33:58.480 they're thinking, well, it's actually you know, take Antioch and keep it. 459 00:33:59.200 --> 00:34:01.960 Everything else they do until the very last conflict right at the end there 460 00:34:02.000 --> 00:34:07.279 in the seventh century is we go in, we plunder, we capture people, 461 00:34:07.359 --> 00:34:09.239 we take them away, but we go home. We don't stay here. 462 00:34:09.239 --> 00:34:13.519 This is about glory, this is about prestige. So they do seem 463 00:34:13.559 --> 00:34:19.679 to have what they consider sort of realistic ambitions, even if sometimes they prove 464 00:34:19.719 --> 00:34:22.760 they can't fulfill those because the other side fights harder, or there's just bad 465 00:34:22.840 --> 00:34:28.079 luck, whatever. So that even when you look at people like Crasus or 466 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:30.880 Trajan, actually they're not going they're not trying to do an Alexander all out 467 00:34:30.880 --> 00:34:35.760 whatever anybody says, because Alexander is not going to do yes, let's take 468 00:34:35.800 --> 00:34:37.000 this bit in a few years time and maybe do the next. He just 469 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:42.519 keeps going. This is different. But those were peculiar circumstances. But I 470 00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:45.559 think the other big advantage, I mean another theme, which is not you 471 00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:50.800 know, I'm not the first to say this, but often there is conflict, 472 00:34:50.840 --> 00:34:53.760 competition, perhaps warfare between the Romans and the Parthians or the Persians, 473 00:34:54.199 --> 00:34:59.559 but then one side breaks away and makes peace, often on unfavorable terms because 474 00:34:59.559 --> 00:35:02.960 they've got a bigger problem somewhere else. For the Parthians, for the Persons. 475 00:35:02.960 --> 00:35:06.800 It's very often the northeastern front of you, but it can be elsewhere. 476 00:35:06.800 --> 00:35:08.480 It's up by the Caspian Sea. It's all this area for the Romans. 477 00:35:08.480 --> 00:35:14.159 Maybe somebody has just come steaming across the Danube to start plundering the settled 478 00:35:14.159 --> 00:35:19.719 provinces there. The big differences with the other empire is that if you come 479 00:35:19.760 --> 00:35:23.480 to an agreement with the king of kings or an emperor that covers a wide 480 00:35:23.519 --> 00:35:29.440 area and more or less you can expect them to keep to it. Now 481 00:35:29.480 --> 00:35:31.519 it comes back to your point earlier that yes, you'll declare so many years 482 00:35:31.559 --> 00:35:35.199 peace and all this sort of thing or eternal peace, and you know it 483 00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:37.239 isn't you know, that's not going to happen. It's going to be anything 484 00:35:37.239 --> 00:35:42.320 else but that, and you'll never you know it, but you'll probably have 485 00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:44.840 warning. So yes, it'll be a big war, but you'll probably have 486 00:35:44.880 --> 00:35:49.960 some warning. But if you're trying to deal with different warleaners amongst the nomads 487 00:35:50.159 --> 00:35:53.119 of the steps, if you're a Parthian or a Persian, if you're dealing 488 00:35:53.199 --> 00:35:59.719 with kings, warlords in the swabe of the Alamanni or Franks, so whoever 489 00:35:59.719 --> 00:36:02.800 it is, there's loads of them. There's never anybody who's so powerful that 490 00:36:02.880 --> 00:36:07.519 if you deal with them, either by defeating them that solve that problem, 491 00:36:07.639 --> 00:36:12.840 or even just negotiating and settling a piece, there is probably another leader within 492 00:36:12.880 --> 00:36:15.400 a you know, fifty miles or so who's going to do the exact jobs 493 00:36:15.440 --> 00:36:17.440 in a town and break that piece and tack you. So it's I think 494 00:36:17.440 --> 00:36:21.840 there's always there's probably an element of relief in that, even though, yes, 495 00:36:21.920 --> 00:36:24.480 the potential threat of each empire to the other is much bigger, there's 496 00:36:24.519 --> 00:36:28.400 also a sense that, okay, we can deal then, we can quantify 497 00:36:28.440 --> 00:36:30.039 it more, we can predict what they're going to do more, and if 498 00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:34.360 they do we do get an agreement with them, we can be reasonably confident. 499 00:36:34.480 --> 00:36:37.320 So it's almost easier to deal with that. And it is striking how 500 00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:43.880 often they will make peace in with the other empire so that they can go 501 00:36:43.920 --> 00:36:46.679 and deal with another problem, which might also be for many periods in both 502 00:36:46.719 --> 00:36:51.199 cases a civil war. You know, a usurper who's appeared somewhere and is 503 00:36:51.280 --> 00:36:53.159 challenging you, So you've got to deal with that, and you'll give up 504 00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:57.960 some territory, you'll pay them some money, you know, you'll let them 505 00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:00.840 strut around saying how they've humbled you and you've bit and all this sort of 506 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:05.320 thing. But you're not giving up too much. You're never giving up critical 507 00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:09.840 things. You know. It's striking that even the big horror in the fourth 508 00:37:09.880 --> 00:37:15.039 century, after Julian's been killed and Jovian's treaty, you know, there are 509 00:37:15.039 --> 00:37:17.880 two major cities that the Romans give up to the Persians, and this is 510 00:37:17.920 --> 00:37:22.079 seen as a terrible sort of dishonor and breach and strategically a big loss, 511 00:37:22.519 --> 00:37:27.119 and it is, but it's still only two cities, and the frontier is 512 00:37:27.159 --> 00:37:30.239 still broadly in the same place. It's not that different. So that's the 513 00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:34.639 level you're dealing with. You it's sort of finer points of negotiation. But 514 00:37:34.719 --> 00:37:39.519 again, if you can get peace there, it relieves you of a really 515 00:37:39.880 --> 00:37:44.639 big problem. So you can go to deal with the dozens of little problems 516 00:37:44.639 --> 00:37:46.719 that are likely to be propping up anywhere else but could explode into something bigger 517 00:37:46.719 --> 00:37:51.519 if you don't deal with them. Yeah, and I think that also one 518 00:37:51.559 --> 00:37:54.360 of the things that it's worth pointing out here is that I don't think we 519 00:37:54.440 --> 00:37:59.800 do ourselves any favors when we do this all the time with maps where we 520 00:37:59.880 --> 00:38:01.440 just draw this line don the map and we say this is this was the 521 00:38:01.480 --> 00:38:05.800 border and such and such, you know, a d or ce whatever you 522 00:38:05.800 --> 00:38:07.599 want to call it. And it was a firm border, so as though 523 00:38:07.639 --> 00:38:13.360 there were like some sort of checkpoints or something across the two. And we 524 00:38:13.440 --> 00:38:15.800 do this a lot. But when it comes to like the colonialization of North 525 00:38:15.840 --> 00:38:20.280 America, you know, this was France, Like there was no French people 526 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:22.639 in this in what it's going to be North Dakota, are you kidding me? 527 00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:27.119 But like it's blue, so it's France. Like That's that's kind of 528 00:38:27.159 --> 00:38:30.079 how we do it, and when in reality, what we probably should have 529 00:38:30.079 --> 00:38:34.119 done, especially when we think about the Romans visa v. The parthy in 530 00:38:34.239 --> 00:38:37.400 Sessanis, is draw sort of a couple of lines and say like, well, 531 00:38:37.440 --> 00:38:40.559 this is more or less this is sort of high tide for this side 532 00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:45.159 and this is high tide for that side, and this area in between can 533 00:38:45.239 --> 00:38:49.519 kind of go back and forth. But we're not, you know, never 534 00:38:49.639 --> 00:38:54.199 really held forever by one side or the other. And I wanted to follow 535 00:38:54.280 --> 00:38:58.920 up on one thing that you said, because I'm always perplexed by this of 536 00:38:59.519 --> 00:39:04.840 you know, I sometimes wonder, like to what extent are Romans, especially 537 00:39:04.840 --> 00:39:07.440 I'm thinking in the late Republic period, Julius Caesar is said to have wept 538 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:12.840 when he thinks about everything that Alexander has accomplished by the time that he's of 539 00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:17.079 the same age. You know, is there this sort of Alexander syndrome of 540 00:39:17.159 --> 00:39:22.239 like, oh, he's the he's the model that I have to emulate, 541 00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:27.119 or is there sort of the opposite, sort of a tacit understanding of like, 542 00:39:27.679 --> 00:39:30.719 well, that was interesting, but look what happened to his empire immediately 543 00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:36.960 upon his death, and that's not something that we have to emulate, you 544 00:39:37.000 --> 00:39:43.880 know, our emperors and maybe even you know late Roman official senators. Are 545 00:39:43.880 --> 00:39:50.039 they looking at at Alexander as something to copy or are they looking him as 546 00:39:50.119 --> 00:39:54.719 somewhat of almost an anomaly of this is something that is fascinating, but you 547 00:39:54.760 --> 00:40:00.400 know, it's not worth trying to replicate. It's it's interesting that that there's 548 00:40:00.440 --> 00:40:05.719 a clear distinction between what they say and what they do. And obviously, 549 00:40:05.800 --> 00:40:08.480 because of the nature of sources, we don't get the dull letters reports from 550 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.639 one governor writing to the emperor saying, well, this is what's going on. 551 00:40:12.639 --> 00:40:15.840 You know what I think the Parthians are thinking about. We get the 552 00:40:15.880 --> 00:40:19.480 poets, we get the propaganda, we get the monuments, we get Augustus 553 00:40:19.480 --> 00:40:22.079 boasting of his empire, stretching to India, ownA this sort of thing. 554 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:27.719 So it's always there, and any Roman has to do no more than think 555 00:40:28.039 --> 00:40:31.519 about looking in the direction of anything sort of east of Asia minor, and 556 00:40:31.599 --> 00:40:35.920 Alexander will appear from nowhere, and people will talk about the new Alexander and 557 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:39.960 these great victories. But it's never that concrete. It doesn't come in anyone 558 00:40:40.039 --> 00:40:45.679 formally saying you know you have even with someone like Julian, who clearly is 559 00:40:45.719 --> 00:40:51.760 a very theatrical individual who likes play acting and pretending to be Emilianus and doing 560 00:40:51.800 --> 00:40:54.519 all this sort of thing, and even he is not in any practical way 561 00:40:54.559 --> 00:41:00.920 trying to do this limitless conquest of Alexander, partly because they know it's but 562 00:41:00.119 --> 00:41:05.719 also I think it is. It's almost like we can watch lots of movies 563 00:41:05.760 --> 00:41:08.840 where the hero gets upset and then slaughters a whole load of people in revenge. 564 00:41:08.840 --> 00:41:12.639 Now, probably the villains have done something terrible to deserve this, but 565 00:41:12.760 --> 00:41:15.880 the body count is staggeringly high, and you feel, you know, some 566 00:41:15.960 --> 00:41:19.639 city has become basically depopulated as a result of these actions. And we go 567 00:41:19.719 --> 00:41:22.519 back and you're after your audiences will watch this stuff, but they don't live 568 00:41:22.559 --> 00:41:27.079 that way. Now that's obviously an extreme case, but Alexander has become a 569 00:41:27.079 --> 00:41:30.639 lot of the Alexander that we read about. The Alexander the Great as he 570 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:36.880 becomes is something that is created. Yes, he was consciously projecting his own 571 00:41:36.880 --> 00:41:39.440 image as this this wonderful, you know, semi divine son of a god 572 00:41:39.519 --> 00:41:44.000 sort of thing, but it develops afterwards. It's what the successes are saying 573 00:41:44.039 --> 00:41:46.679 when everybody's trying to be the next Alexander, and then it's what the romans 574 00:41:46.679 --> 00:41:52.159 are saying. He becomes. He's like in an ansort of where he's almost 575 00:41:52.239 --> 00:41:54.960 like an Achilles from the Iliad. He's he's the best hero, he is 576 00:41:55.000 --> 00:42:00.559 the greatest warrior. But you don't actually live that way. Yes you say 577 00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:04.480 that's great, yes you admire it, but that's not how the world works 578 00:42:04.519 --> 00:42:09.639 anymore. So I think he's there in the same way that citizens from Athens 579 00:42:09.760 --> 00:42:13.679 or any other city state can read the really and be inspired to be brave. 580 00:42:13.679 --> 00:42:15.960 In Batman, feel I've got to live up to this, but they 581 00:42:15.960 --> 00:42:19.679 still don't try and do the Achilles just half their way through all the enemy 582 00:42:19.719 --> 00:42:24.039 on their own and die young. You know. It's so I think Alexander 583 00:42:24.400 --> 00:42:29.199 is there. It's powerful, But actually I would say it's the practical side 584 00:42:29.239 --> 00:42:31.400 that seems to influence their behavior. They know because of Alexander, as I 585 00:42:31.400 --> 00:42:35.440 said before, how big the world is out there. They have a pretty 586 00:42:35.440 --> 00:42:38.480 fair idea of what's out there, and they realize that, you know, 587 00:42:38.519 --> 00:42:44.079 this is a long way to go. And they also perhaps you do get 588 00:42:44.079 --> 00:42:46.760 some criticism later on of Alexander the sense, you know, it's an empire 589 00:42:46.760 --> 00:42:51.480 that doesn't last, doesn't outlive him at all. It fragments. Some of 590 00:42:51.480 --> 00:42:54.519 those fragments survive a long time, but in the end it goes. There 591 00:42:54.599 --> 00:43:02.440 is always that strange relationship between the Romans and the memory of the Greeks, 592 00:43:02.840 --> 00:43:06.599 in this sense that yes, this is a culture you admire, you've taken 593 00:43:06.639 --> 00:43:09.159 over, but also, well, we've conquered them, so we must be 594 00:43:09.159 --> 00:43:15.880 better than they are. But it's it is just striking. Even you have 595 00:43:15.920 --> 00:43:22.599 people like Caracala supposedly forming two legions and equipping them in what he thought was 596 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:25.679 what the Macedonians had worn. It's you know, it's rather like Civil War 597 00:43:25.800 --> 00:43:30.800 armies dressing up as Napoleon soldiers or that French influence you get and then talking 598 00:43:30.840 --> 00:43:34.880 a lot about Napoleon because that's relatively recent history. But that's how you win 599 00:43:34.920 --> 00:43:38.239 great battles, that's how your glorious soldiers. You get this emulation. So 600 00:43:38.280 --> 00:43:42.679 it's there, there's an element of it, but that experiment doesn't last, 601 00:43:42.719 --> 00:43:47.239 doesn't that live Caracala, And it's you know, there's no we don't even 602 00:43:47.239 --> 00:43:51.800 know whether it was anything ever more than an idea. In the same way 603 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:55.559 that you know, briefly, Napoleon asked the artist David to design a uniform 604 00:43:55.639 --> 00:43:59.639 one of the regiments of the Imperial Garden. He came out this classically inspired 605 00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:04.199 tune and bare legs and sort of helmet and everything to make them look like 606 00:44:04.599 --> 00:44:07.840 Greco Roman warriors sort of things, which was yes, thank you very much, 607 00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:10.559 and here's your money. But yes, we'll quickly sideline that nobody actually 608 00:44:10.599 --> 00:44:15.440 thinks of doing it in a practical sense. So I think he's there. 609 00:44:15.519 --> 00:44:22.039 But it's the other thing we've got to remember is that Alexander is as far 610 00:44:22.079 --> 00:44:28.039 away even from Crassus as the late seventeenth century early eighteenth century is from us. 611 00:44:28.239 --> 00:44:31.360 It's a long time ago, so they know the world is it has 612 00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:37.760 been sort of relegated history by this point, and it's it's moving into that 613 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:42.880 so and particularly because I mean you get it in the you know whats the 614 00:44:42.920 --> 00:44:46.880 Alexander romance, this tradition on the fiction side of things of his story gets 615 00:44:46.880 --> 00:44:52.119 more and more exaggerated. And yes, people still read about Alexander and say, 616 00:44:52.159 --> 00:44:53.840 well, you know, this is a great strategym as a general, 617 00:44:53.880 --> 00:44:58.480 this is something you can copy. You have people like Arion in the second 618 00:44:58.519 --> 00:45:02.960 century writing a Man All which has drills and tactics for modern Roman cavalry. 619 00:45:02.960 --> 00:45:06.559 And then when you get to the infantry, it's the phalanx of Alexander, 620 00:45:07.159 --> 00:45:09.480 and it's you know, quite why he does this to what extent his audience 621 00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:13.199 is just saying, well, this is all a literary device. Nobody's trying 622 00:45:13.199 --> 00:45:15.639 to do this. So I think he's there. I think he's a memory. 623 00:45:15.679 --> 00:45:22.039 And there's an element where, particularly under the Republic, the Roman aristocratic 624 00:45:22.039 --> 00:45:25.400 culture has been one of superlatives. You have to outdo the last success, 625 00:45:25.400 --> 00:45:29.719 You've got to go better you've got to go better. Alexander sort of gets 626 00:45:29.760 --> 00:45:31.760 added on to that, but in a vague sense, in the same way 627 00:45:31.840 --> 00:45:36.760 that whether it's Corbulo saying you know how fortunate the generals of the republic were, 628 00:45:37.159 --> 00:45:40.039 you don't actually do that anymore. Emperors aren't expected to leave their army 629 00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:44.599 in battle until very late, and then it's mostly in civil wars or because 630 00:45:44.599 --> 00:45:49.800 things are desperate, and that eventually stops as well. A governor's a lot 631 00:45:49.840 --> 00:45:52.920 allowed the free reign of somebody like Caesar to go off and provoke wars all 632 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:59.599 over the base or Pompey before that in the east. So everybody knows it's 633 00:45:59.599 --> 00:46:02.119 a different world, and that's different in terms of the sort of state you're 634 00:46:02.119 --> 00:46:07.519 in. And again, this is a Roman empire that is pretending to be 635 00:46:07.079 --> 00:46:12.199 a republic, and the emperor is still pretending for a long time to be 636 00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:15.719 the greatest magistrate, the greatest servant of the state, rather than its ruler. 637 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:19.800 He's not a king, he's not a monarch, and they studiously avoid 638 00:46:19.840 --> 00:46:25.719 that royal title. Even when later on they develop all this ornate ceremony around 639 00:46:25.760 --> 00:46:30.159 the imperial court, they're still pretending. They still never call themselves king, 640 00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:35.960 so I think they just know the world is different. And I think Alexander 641 00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:39.280 is an inspiration in some respects, but not to the extent of this is 642 00:46:39.320 --> 00:46:42.760 what you want to do. Other than yes, I can be a great 643 00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.960 commander, I can lead me as brave and skilled as Alexander, but not 644 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:50.840 in I don't have to do what he did. I think because sometimes because 645 00:46:50.880 --> 00:46:54.719 technology doesn't change as dramatically as it has in the modern age, I think 646 00:46:54.719 --> 00:46:59.679 sometimes when we look at especially the ancient classical world to some extent the medieval 647 00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:04.679 world, we tend to shrink time down and we don't realize the length of 648 00:47:04.719 --> 00:47:08.159 time that has passed. Because you're right, it's between the time that Alexander 649 00:47:08.559 --> 00:47:15.880 begins his Persian conquests and the time that Augustus forms the principed is almost exactly 650 00:47:15.920 --> 00:47:21.480 three hundred years. And that's a long time, because that's the time between 651 00:47:21.840 --> 00:47:23.000 now and if you want to go back, say, let's we can just 652 00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:27.400 almost exactly go back to George Washington almost, you know, and say, 653 00:47:27.639 --> 00:47:30.280 you know, so that that is sort of the mythology that develops over the 654 00:47:30.320 --> 00:47:35.199 time. And you're right, I mean Julius Caesar, for all his protesting 655 00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:37.960 that you know, he wants to emulate Alexander. With a couple of exceptions, 656 00:47:38.199 --> 00:47:43.159 he is not mounting a horse and riding directly into the opponent's lines. 657 00:47:43.280 --> 00:47:47.000 Like maybe to even him, that seems like an antiquated and foolish way of 658 00:47:47.000 --> 00:47:52.159 doing things. I do think to an extent, Alexander is the anomaly in 659 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:54.960 a lot of ways, and and a lot of that just simply has to 660 00:47:55.000 --> 00:48:00.679 do with he really believed he was emulating Achilles. You know that that was 661 00:48:00.760 --> 00:48:04.760 the model for him, and you know that he had a different mindset. 662 00:48:04.800 --> 00:48:08.920 It wasn't create an empire that lasts forever. It was glory and that was 663 00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:14.360 what mattered. But I want to ask one last question because we're up on 664 00:48:14.440 --> 00:48:17.400 time here, so I'm going to jump way forward. But I'm always curious 665 00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:22.119 about this. So the the you know, the Arab armies of Islam explode 666 00:48:22.320 --> 00:48:29.119 in the seventh century out and sort of wipe away what was the Soanet Empire 667 00:48:29.239 --> 00:48:32.800 in a few quick strokes. The people who are calling themselves the Romans that 668 00:48:32.840 --> 00:48:37.119 we call them the business teams, they survive, And I'm always curious about 669 00:48:37.119 --> 00:48:42.079 this. Is it are the I'm going to call them the Romans. For 670 00:48:42.119 --> 00:48:47.360 the sake of argument, are they stronger or is it just simply geography bails 671 00:48:47.400 --> 00:48:52.519 them out in this particular case. And if we switch the Issanids and the 672 00:48:52.599 --> 00:48:58.239 Romans around, then they get wiped out and the Issanets make it. I'm 673 00:48:58.280 --> 00:49:01.880 just curious. I think it's a combination. I mean, some of its 674 00:49:01.920 --> 00:49:07.719 geography. But we have to remember the Romans do lose Syria, Palestine, 675 00:49:07.920 --> 00:49:12.559 Egypt. They will eventually lose the rest of the North African provinces as well, 676 00:49:12.760 --> 00:49:16.920 that some of which they've only just in relatively recent terms reacquired under Justinian 677 00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:21.840 that they'd lost before to the Vandals. So and then eventually, you know, 678 00:49:21.880 --> 00:49:24.840 the Arabic armies will be coming into southern Spain and pushing beyond that. 679 00:49:24.960 --> 00:49:29.920 So there's an element where it comes back to the Dardanelles and the simple strength 680 00:49:30.000 --> 00:49:34.760 of fortified Constantinople and it's really hard to take. So that saves them, 681 00:49:35.000 --> 00:49:37.239 but they do lose an awful lot. Yes, they maintain a presence in 682 00:49:37.280 --> 00:49:40.960 Asia Minor, but it's never as prosperous as it has been because it's always 683 00:49:40.960 --> 00:49:46.119 a potential war zone. Some of its chants in that if the Arab armies 684 00:49:46.119 --> 00:49:50.599 had come a little bit earlier, they would have hit the Romans, which 685 00:49:50.960 --> 00:49:55.199 the time of the great successes of the Persians against them, when they overrun 686 00:49:55.320 --> 00:50:00.480 many of the same areas that the Arab armies will take, like like Alexandria 687 00:50:00.519 --> 00:50:04.920 in Egypt, all this sort of thing. They've taken these places within living 688 00:50:04.920 --> 00:50:08.039 memory at the time when the Romans are divided in a civil war, the 689 00:50:08.079 --> 00:50:12.800 Arab armies attack the Persians when they are still very vulnerable, when it's not 690 00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.719 clear who should be king of kings, who's going to succeed. Where you 691 00:50:15.920 --> 00:50:22.239 have that the brief periods where you have a female king of kings, I 692 00:50:22.239 --> 00:50:25.239 mean they're still used the same title, and then her sister, though she 693 00:50:25.280 --> 00:50:28.960 never gets to min coins with her image on them. But other than that, 694 00:50:29.280 --> 00:50:31.400 you've suddenly got this break because they are desperate to find members of the 695 00:50:31.440 --> 00:50:37.599 royal family. And these are traditionally royal houses that have produced lots of children 696 00:50:37.679 --> 00:50:40.639 because of multiple concubines and wives of the king of kings, and there's always 697 00:50:40.639 --> 00:50:45.760 been lots of potential rulers out there. Suddenly you seem to be running out. 698 00:50:45.000 --> 00:50:50.280 So there's an element whereby they are particularly vulnerable. The other thing as 699 00:50:50.280 --> 00:50:53.480 well, which which recent research in the last few decades has pointed out that 700 00:50:53.599 --> 00:50:59.960 there are many essentially Parthian noble families in the heart of Iran that change side 701 00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:04.599 again. And they've done this before to back the Sicanians, and they stay 702 00:51:04.719 --> 00:51:09.199 for at least several generations, still controlling their old lands under the Caliphate, 703 00:51:10.039 --> 00:51:15.239 and they, as far as we can tell, it's fairly slow the process 704 00:51:15.280 --> 00:51:21.440 of really converting to Islam. There's an element because that's again it comes back 705 00:51:21.480 --> 00:51:23.280 to a point raised earlier. Yes, we can look at the weaknesses. 706 00:51:23.320 --> 00:51:29.000 These two empires have just fought this monumental war where the Romans have nearly they've 707 00:51:29.039 --> 00:51:32.880 come the closest to extinction they've ever come in any struggle with Parthians or Persians. 708 00:51:34.199 --> 00:51:37.480 You know it. Again, they've been saved by the Bosporus by and 709 00:51:37.679 --> 00:51:44.000 by the walls of Constantinople, but because the Persian army couldn't get to join 710 00:51:44.039 --> 00:51:47.880 the Avars to help attack and capture the city. But even then it's a 711 00:51:47.960 --> 00:51:53.320 narrow victory in that siege. So they're very vulnerable. But again you've got 712 00:51:53.360 --> 00:51:57.639 to remember, yes, we should see there are weaknesses there are problems they're 713 00:51:57.639 --> 00:52:00.559 facing, but there's also the Arab armies are doing a lot. That's right. 714 00:52:00.800 --> 00:52:04.119 You know, they are successful. They've got good leaders, they've got 715 00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:08.199 highly motivated forces, they're very skillful, and they are combining as all successful 716 00:52:08.239 --> 00:52:12.760 empires have done, like the Parthians, like the Romans in the past, 717 00:52:13.119 --> 00:52:19.599 they combine military force and threat with diplomacy, and they manage to convince the 718 00:52:19.639 --> 00:52:23.679 areas they overrun that it's actually worth being loyal to them, because reprisals will 719 00:52:23.719 --> 00:52:28.920 be terrible. But actually life under us isn't that bad because we don't interfere 720 00:52:28.960 --> 00:52:31.280 with your religion, We don't interfere with your daily life. We just want 721 00:52:31.280 --> 00:52:35.320 you to get on with things and not cause us any trouble. So you 722 00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:39.159 pay tribute, and it helps perhaps in the Roman provinces that in most of 723 00:52:39.159 --> 00:52:44.320 these areas, the ones that fall first, you've fairly recently been occupied by 724 00:52:44.320 --> 00:52:46.239 the Persians and you've come to the same deal with them. You've decided, 725 00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:50.039 well, if the empire can't protect us, there's no point dying for an 726 00:52:50.039 --> 00:52:52.320 emperor who isn't going to turn up and save us with his armies. So 727 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:54.719 let's just wait and see you know, these people aren't asking too much of 728 00:52:54.800 --> 00:52:59.480 us, They're respecting us, they're respecting our traditions. So there's a lot, 729 00:53:00.119 --> 00:53:04.000 a lot of reasons why the Arabamis are successful, as well as reasons 730 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.320 why both of the empires are defeated. But I think it's it's really a 731 00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:13.920 combination of those things that that all come together, and both empires are exhausted 732 00:53:13.960 --> 00:53:19.440 after this long struggle both the week the Persians are divided, they are in 733 00:53:19.519 --> 00:53:22.760 the same way that, of course Alexander hits an Achemen in Persian Empire with 734 00:53:22.159 --> 00:53:27.559 a Darius as king who hasn't been there very long, and isn't you know, 735 00:53:27.800 --> 00:53:30.679 perhaps a generation or so before, wouldn't have been the obvious candidate to 736 00:53:30.760 --> 00:53:35.960 be there and has had problems with recently, There'll be rebellions in Egypt you've 737 00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:38.039 just managed to put down, but you're struggling to control what you've got, 738 00:53:38.360 --> 00:53:45.760 and then suddenly this avalanche hits you that's come from nowhere. So all of 739 00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:51.079 these things come together, and I don't think there's there's one simple answer as 740 00:53:51.119 --> 00:53:57.199 to why it changes so suddenly, But again there's it all comes back to 741 00:53:57.239 --> 00:54:01.519 this perception as historians of time for us, it's really sudden, but actually 742 00:54:01.639 --> 00:54:07.800 much of this is happening over years, and if you're living through it in 743 00:54:07.840 --> 00:54:13.599 the same way that you know the Second World War doesn't yes in one sense 744 00:54:13.639 --> 00:54:15.920 it starts. If your Polish September thirty nine doesn't finish till forty five, 745 00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:20.639 that's still six years. Best part off that you've got to live through. 746 00:54:20.639 --> 00:54:25.119 It sounds quick, but it isn't. And we always have this dangerous archaeologists 747 00:54:25.119 --> 00:54:28.920 as well are prone to it, where you see things as a trend, 748 00:54:29.000 --> 00:54:32.920 and the less evidence you have, the more you compress all the events and 749 00:54:34.039 --> 00:54:37.559 make them very, very rapid. And they are fairly rapid, but there 750 00:54:37.599 --> 00:54:40.800 are still probably lots of occasions where people are living through this thinking well, 751 00:54:40.840 --> 00:54:45.119 this might all change and we might win. And it isn't all inevitable, 752 00:54:45.119 --> 00:54:47.840 and it hasn't been instant. It's quick, and yes things are bad, 753 00:54:47.920 --> 00:54:52.119 but again from the Roman perspective, those provinces have been overrun, but they 754 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:55.239 retook them within a few years, and maybe people are thinking, well, 755 00:54:55.320 --> 00:54:58.880 let's just hunker down and see what happens, but maybe the Romans will be 756 00:54:58.880 --> 00:55:02.719 back. They've always come back the past, so it's trying to restore that 757 00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:08.440 human element, but also that sense of time that we can so easily lose 758 00:55:08.480 --> 00:55:14.360 when we just focus on the big events, and particularly big events that are 759 00:55:14.400 --> 00:55:16.360 the only things that appear in very meager sources. You know, we would 760 00:55:16.360 --> 00:55:21.360 love to know more about all of this, and that's the doing this story. 761 00:55:21.360 --> 00:55:23.119 It was striking, even from the Roman perspective, when you know we 762 00:55:23.159 --> 00:55:27.519 know most of the sources come from them, there are huge chunks where we 763 00:55:27.639 --> 00:55:34.320 know almost nothing about what's going on for decades really and sometimes for the best 764 00:55:34.360 --> 00:55:38.159 part of a century, and we're left with making do and trying to understand 765 00:55:39.079 --> 00:55:44.039 what's going on. But that can sometimes mean we sort of we compress these 766 00:55:44.039 --> 00:55:49.719 centuries into short periods of time instead of several people's lifetimes. And I think 767 00:55:50.320 --> 00:55:54.920 that's ultimately one of the biggest challenges, whether it's writing about history or teaching 768 00:55:54.960 --> 00:56:00.920 about history, is trying to avoid the narrative of inevitability that this was going 769 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:05.599 to happen, because obviously we have the benefit of knowing what will happen, 770 00:56:06.039 --> 00:56:10.760 but at the time they didn't know. I mean, if you were betting, 771 00:56:12.039 --> 00:56:16.480 you'd probably say in the mid third century that the Roman Empire was done, 772 00:56:16.760 --> 00:56:21.480 but it wasn't. It makes a comeback. It's fine in the fourth 773 00:56:21.519 --> 00:56:28.440 century by and large, so these things aren't inevitable. But it's a fascinating 774 00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:32.599 book and it's such an interesting story. I'm sure that people will pick it 775 00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:36.960 up. I hope that they do. But we talked about a lot of 776 00:56:37.039 --> 00:56:39.559 interesting things here today, so you know, I just want to say thank 777 00:56:39.599 --> 00:56:44.159 you for coming on the show because this has been really illustrative, and I 778 00:56:44.199 --> 00:56:46.320 mean, we could talk about the Romans for years and no one would get 779 00:56:46.360 --> 00:56:51.239 tired of it, right, Yeah, absolutely, Well I kind of knew 780 00:56:52.199 --> 00:56:53.559 whether anybody wants to listen, I don't know, but no, thank you 781 00:56:53.559 --> 00:56:57.320 for inviting me. It's a lot of fun. It is nice to talk 782 00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.360 about this, and it's mean I'll be interesting to see how they this book 783 00:57:00.400 --> 00:57:02.559 does, because it's whereas if you write about Alexander or Julius Caesar, you 784 00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:06.480 know, people recognize the name and they'll pick it up and they probably know 785 00:57:06.559 --> 00:57:10.239 some of the story already. Lots of this is not familiar, and no 786 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:16.559 one's really looked at the rivalry as a whole. So it's really interesting, 787 00:57:16.639 --> 00:57:20.679 but it isn't something. There are lots of things I had to learn whilst 788 00:57:21.159 --> 00:57:23.920 researching it and writing it, and as a reader there probably there are going 789 00:57:23.960 --> 00:57:28.159 to be many people who know about all the things covered in this before they 790 00:57:28.159 --> 00:57:30.960 start, which you might get. There are plenty of people who are really 791 00:57:30.000 --> 00:57:36.199 keen on Alexander, really keen on Cleopatra, Caesar, whoever. So I'm 792 00:57:36.440 --> 00:57:40.119 it this is an interesting experiment to see whether you can just say, well, 793 00:57:40.159 --> 00:57:43.760 look, this is really interesting, trust me, But you are going 794 00:57:43.840 --> 00:57:45.079 to have to pick up You're gonna have to go and think about places that 795 00:57:45.119 --> 00:57:51.239 maybe we don't all the rest of the time. And there are lots of 796 00:57:51.760 --> 00:57:54.559 I've tried not to avoid too many names because otherwise you're dealing with all sorts 797 00:57:54.599 --> 00:57:58.320 of characters who pop up and I'm very hard to remember who they are, 798 00:57:58.840 --> 00:58:01.880 but even places you know. But in other respects you find this history and 799 00:58:01.920 --> 00:58:07.679 these conflicts go on in the same area again and again, rather like you 800 00:58:07.760 --> 00:58:13.199 know, Belgium from seventeenth century onwards really is in European Wars. People are 801 00:58:13.199 --> 00:58:15.519 probably going to come through there at some point or other. It's just that's 802 00:58:15.599 --> 00:58:19.440 the trap of geography, essentially, this is the way you're going to go. 803 00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:23.920 So there are similar patterns in terms of these frontier areas where there's nearly 804 00:58:23.960 --> 00:58:30.559 always tension and the same places are attacked, defended, taken, retaken again 805 00:58:30.719 --> 00:58:34.840 and again and again. So it's a different sort of story to the things 806 00:58:34.840 --> 00:58:37.159 I've told in the past. So I'm hoping hoping people will like it anyway. 807 00:58:38.199 --> 00:58:40.880 Well, I certainly enjoyed it, and I hope that people pick it 808 00:58:40.960 --> 00:58:45.039 up. So again, thank you so much for coming on. And in 809 00:58:45.079 --> 00:58:47.880 my experience, anytime you stamp the word roma and something is going to do 810 00:58:47.920 --> 00:58:52.119 pretty well. So let's hope that that holds true for the future, and 811 00:58:52.199 --> 00:58:58.119 I think that we will both be successful. Right yep, fingers crossed, 812 00:58:58.159 --> 00:59:01.519 Let's hope. But again, thanks for inviting me.