1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:45,640 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:45,679 --> 00:00:51,479 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're back for another fun filled episode of Mind over 11 00:00:51,560 --> 00:00:54,600 Murder. It's a beautiful spring day here in Virginia. How is it where 12 00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,039 you are, mister Thomas. It's a beautiful spring day. Actually, we've 13 00:00:58,079 --> 00:01:07,680 had really extreme, really cold, windy weather with sixty mile an hour winds, 14 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:12,159 so lots of trees down, power outages, all that kind of stuff. 15 00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:18,560 We got lucky, and my voice is still recovering from a protracted belt 16 00:01:18,599 --> 00:01:22,879 of illness. But here I am ready to give it my all for you 17 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,079 good people. When you say illness, now, people are going to start 18 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:30,239 to be concerned that there's something wrong with you. No, it was, 19 00:01:30,359 --> 00:01:36,000 of all the darn things, it was an ear infection that was causing my 20 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:38,439 voice to get all wonky and weird. This is true. You are the 21 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:44,040 only person I know over the age of four who's ever had an ear infection. 22 00:01:44,959 --> 00:01:48,560 Right, it seems like a little kid thing. More research may be 23 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,920 called for, but in the meantime, we have more serious matters to discuss, 24 00:01:53,239 --> 00:01:56,879 we do. It has been two months since the January eighth presser during 25 00:01:56,920 --> 00:02:00,359 which the FBI and the VSP announced that Alan Wade Wilmer was linked to the 26 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:05,200 murders of Robin Edwards, David Knabling, and Teresa Howell. This was also 27 00:02:05,239 --> 00:02:09,039 the press conference at which they did not announce but should have, that Wilmer 28 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:14,240 Senior was also the prime suspect in the disappearance of Keith Call and Cassandra Haley 29 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,319 back in nineteen eighty eight. Since then, we have been I feel like 30 00:02:17,319 --> 00:02:23,240 maybe inundated isn't a strong enough word for what we have been with tips and 31 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:29,719 information, messages of support from so many wonderful listeners, and so we wanted 32 00:02:29,759 --> 00:02:32,400 to take a couple of minutes. Here we are two months later, and 33 00:02:32,479 --> 00:02:36,719 I feel like at this point we have to ask ourselves where do we go 34 00:02:36,800 --> 00:02:40,000 from here? I thought we would go ahead and just do a quick debrief, 35 00:02:40,479 --> 00:02:44,520 talk about some of the questions that we have now, and then make 36 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:49,039 a couple of announcements that hopefully our listeners will be very intrigued and enthused by. 37 00:02:49,639 --> 00:02:53,599 Sounds good. So let's talk debrief. My first question for you, 38 00:02:54,000 --> 00:03:00,719 because I have very definite opinions on this it's two months on, where are 39 00:03:00,719 --> 00:03:05,319 we both emotionally from I would say an advocate perspective for both of us obviously, 40 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:09,400 but also this has to have been emotionally traumatic, not just for your 41 00:03:09,439 --> 00:03:13,639 family, but for all the families in the case. Two months on, 42 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,319 where do you find yourself? How do you feel emotionally about this whole thing? 43 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:22,280 I'm not feeling quite as overwhelmed as I was when this whole thing first 44 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:25,719 started, but even now, for instance, a question came up within the 45 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:31,960 last twenty four hours and I'm racking my brain thinking which person provided us with 46 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:38,240 that piece of information and perhaps just as importantly, where do I find it 47 00:03:38,319 --> 00:03:42,840 now that I want to go back and revisit it, because so this multiplatform 48 00:03:42,840 --> 00:03:46,199 world, yeah, the whole multiplatform world thing, where we get communication and 49 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:52,719 messaging on so many different platforms. So now someone sent me something that I 50 00:03:52,719 --> 00:03:55,960 think could be very interesting and helpful moving forward, and now I have to 51 00:03:57,039 --> 00:04:02,120 go find the damn thing. I'm not as frustrated as I was two months 52 00:04:02,159 --> 00:04:06,319 ago, although when I stop and think about it even now, I was 53 00:04:06,400 --> 00:04:15,199 watching a report that Wavy television reporter Andy Fox did over a month ago that 54 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:18,160 I had seen, and then for some reason, I was going back over 55 00:04:18,240 --> 00:04:23,319 some research and I went back and watched this story a second time, and 56 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,759 I have to be honest, I was just about as angry, probably the 57 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:30,279 third time I've seen the story. I think I was almost as angry because 58 00:04:30,319 --> 00:04:35,680 of the misleading remarks at the press conference. I just find the whole thing 59 00:04:36,199 --> 00:04:43,959 still to this day infuriating that the FBI and the Virginia State Police, and 60 00:04:44,000 --> 00:04:47,279 to a lesser extent, the Hampton, Virginia Police Department, their failure to 61 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:56,199 be more straightforward in presenting the exciting news that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had been 62 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:01,040 identified as a suspect in the murder of Robin Edwards and David Knobling, and 63 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:08,759 then also now connected to the nineteen eighty nine murder of Teresa Howell, a 64 00:05:08,879 --> 00:05:13,639 cases we've talked about that we were less familiar with, but just the unwillingness 65 00:05:13,639 --> 00:05:19,120 to even mention the fact that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior was also suspect number one 66 00:05:19,439 --> 00:05:25,639 and remain so in my opinion, in the disappearance of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley 67 00:05:26,399 --> 00:05:30,240 in nineteen eighty eight. We've talked to family members any number of times in 68 00:05:30,279 --> 00:05:34,720 the last few months, I think, in particular for the Colin Haley families, 69 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,600 after being told at a private briefing with the FBI that the FBI was 70 00:05:40,759 --> 00:05:46,160 ninety nine percent certain that Wilmer was responsible for the disappearance and likely homicide of 71 00:05:46,319 --> 00:05:53,959 Keith Colin Cassandra Haley, for them two days later to fail to highlight that 72 00:05:54,319 --> 00:06:00,120 or even mention it is incredibly frustrating. From what we've heard from the Call 73 00:06:00,120 --> 00:06:06,920 and Haley families, it feels a deceptive It feels privately, your investigators are 74 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:12,079 telling you one thing, but then when it comes to a public statement two 75 00:06:12,199 --> 00:06:17,199 days later, they highlight the Robin Edwards dated noveling and Teresa Howell connection, 76 00:06:17,360 --> 00:06:24,959 which is deserved and it's exciting news. It's not exactly good news, but 77 00:06:25,160 --> 00:06:29,839 as we've talked about here before, when you've been waiting for information for over 78 00:06:29,959 --> 00:06:35,160 thirty years, receiving that information and none of us ever expected that the Colonial 79 00:06:35,199 --> 00:06:40,600 Parkway murders are going to have a happy ending. But when you've been waiting 80 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,279 for a good chunk of your life for answers in your sister and brothers, 81 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:53,360 daughter and sons brutal homicide, those are answers you've sought, and now you 82 00:06:53,560 --> 00:06:59,920 have some answers. So we continue to be excited for the Edwards and Novelin 83 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:06,600 families and for Howell family. At the same time, we're in constant contact 84 00:07:06,759 --> 00:07:13,079 with other family members and they're infuriated because they're like, what happened to the 85 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:18,439 information you provided to us privately, which you still haven't even confirmed publicly. 86 00:07:19,319 --> 00:07:23,839 I know I'm with you on all of that. So it sounds like you 87 00:07:23,959 --> 00:07:28,399 are not as overwhelmed, but still just as frustrated. Did I get that 88 00:07:28,519 --> 00:07:32,480 right? Yeah, in the beginning, it was just such a whirlwind. 89 00:07:32,560 --> 00:07:36,720 And of course we've made no bones about the fact that we knew this was 90 00:07:36,800 --> 00:07:42,279 coming. Yes, several months before we had heard from media sources that this 91 00:07:42,439 --> 00:07:46,519 was coming, and we knew Alan Wade Wilmer's name, a bit about his 92 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:50,759 family, his brother Keith, his brother Tim or Timmy, the youngest brother. 93 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:56,519 Two of those brothers are deceased now. Alan Wade Wilmer, of course, 94 00:07:56,560 --> 00:08:01,319 died in twenty seventeen, and then Timmy, the youngest died almost a 95 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:09,000 year exactly the following Christmas twenty eighteen. We're actually trying to spend a bit 96 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,720 more time on the youngest brother, because it seems that information about how this 97 00:08:13,879 --> 00:08:18,160 youngest brother, Timmy, lived and died, seems to be in short supply. 98 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:24,399 The family has said that he died in an automobile accident, but it 99 00:08:24,439 --> 00:08:30,759 seems real light on specifics. That is interesting and odd all at the same 100 00:08:30,879 --> 00:08:37,039 time. I agree. I think that the news that the families got on 101 00:08:37,159 --> 00:08:43,360 January eighth, if you can use the phrase both a blessing and a curse 102 00:08:43,759 --> 00:08:48,799 for any one piece of information, I feel like this is that piece of 103 00:08:48,879 --> 00:08:54,240 information. We're thrilled for the Noblings and the Edwards and the Howells. Just 104 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:56,759 as you said, boy, I don't think either you or I had really 105 00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,840 stopped to take a minute and figure out, Okay, if we get news 106 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:07,720 in this case, what is this going to look like for us, all 107 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:09,600 of us, for you and me as a podcast partnership, for all of 108 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:13,320 the different families. I think it is just one of those things where we've 109 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,600 been doing this for so long. I don't think we really at least I 110 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:20,480 didn't hold out hope that it was actually going to come to fruition, and 111 00:09:20,519 --> 00:09:26,000 then when it did, I did not expect the overwhelming amount of information that 112 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:31,080 came pouring into us, Like almost immediately from day one after that press conference, 113 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,519 you and I were both slammed with information from our social media pages, 114 00:09:37,039 --> 00:09:41,519 and it didn't let up for at least a good month and a half. 115 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:45,600 It didn't let up. And for that first week or so, you and 116 00:09:45,639 --> 00:09:48,200 I were talking to each other three, four or five times a day. 117 00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:50,960 And I love talking to you, but that was a lot, even for 118 00:09:52,039 --> 00:09:54,000 the two of us, that was a lot. It has been an interesting 119 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,759 journey over these last two months, and I agree with you, Bill, 120 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:05,279 the overwhelmedness has led up a little bit. There's still a lot going on 121 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:07,879 and a lot of balls in the air, And I would say that, 122 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:11,600 yes, there is definitely still a lot of frustration there, but it's something 123 00:10:11,639 --> 00:10:15,320 that I've had to figure out. Okay, we're going to have to go 124 00:10:15,360 --> 00:10:18,039 with the assumption that the frustration is going to be there for a while. 125 00:10:18,480 --> 00:10:22,840 How do I put it aside and compartmentalize it and deal with it so that 126 00:10:22,879 --> 00:10:26,399 I can do all the rest of my jobs. I imagine that's probably a 127 00:10:26,399 --> 00:10:28,399 little harder for you, though, because this is what you do, this 128 00:10:28,519 --> 00:10:33,200 is your case, this is your focus, and I imagine that's probably a 129 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,879 little harder for you than it is for me. Would I be writing that? 130 00:10:37,879 --> 00:10:43,320 I think I'd be a bit happier if the FBI, Virginia State Police 131 00:10:43,360 --> 00:10:48,279 in the Hampton Police Department had been more straightforward in their delivery of the information 132 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:52,799 on January eighth, and then, of course they were obligated to respond to 133 00:10:52,879 --> 00:11:00,919 press inquiries asking was Alan Wade Wilmer Senior a suspect in the disappearing to Keith 134 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:03,399 Colin Cassandra Haley, Oh, by the way, you didn't mention that at 135 00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:11,080 the press conference, and they were forced to admit that Wilmer was a suspect 136 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:18,519 and would remain one. I found myself going back and watching clips of interviews 137 00:11:18,039 --> 00:11:24,639 with former sac IRV Wells, who is the person who is the source of 138 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:31,440 this information about why the FBI let Wilmer go in nineteen eighty eight after identifying 139 00:11:31,519 --> 00:11:35,559 him as a likely suspect in the Colonial Parkway murders. I would add, 140 00:11:35,720 --> 00:11:43,159 correctly identifying him, if not the offender in the Colonial Parkway murders, certainly 141 00:11:43,519 --> 00:11:48,120 one of the offenders. Because despite the fact that our friends in law enforcement 142 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:54,559 went to the ridiculous length of renaming the Robin Edwards and David Nobling murder as 143 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,720 the Isle of White Murders, which no one has ever called them the Isle. 144 00:12:00,039 --> 00:12:01,799 Oh yeah, And we want to come back to that in a couple 145 00:12:01,799 --> 00:12:09,240 of minutes too, because that is infuriating. Without doubt, I's stole a 146 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:13,519 lot of sleepless nights, and I have a lot of questions. There is 147 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,320 some good news that comes out of all of this, though, which is 148 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:20,799 we have a suspect to focus on, and I want to be clear here, 149 00:12:22,120 --> 00:12:28,879 Wilmer fits what they were looking for yes in Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, 150 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:33,879 and now he's confirmed to be attached to via DNA Robin Edwards and David 151 00:12:33,919 --> 00:12:41,600 Knoppling a year later, and then he is suspect number one in the disappearance 152 00:12:41,639 --> 00:12:46,840 of Keith Colin Cassandra Haley about eight months later following April, and now we're 153 00:12:46,879 --> 00:12:52,120 up to April nineteen eighty eight, and he's a good solid fit for the 154 00:12:52,759 --> 00:12:58,080 Labor Day nineteen eighty nine murders of Anna Maria Phelps and Daniel Lauer. So 155 00:12:58,200 --> 00:13:03,240 there's a lot there as we begin to explore his family dynamic with his older 156 00:13:03,279 --> 00:13:07,799 brother Keith, who's still alive, and his younger brother Tim or Timmy, 157 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:15,399 who I think deserves a significantly greater level of scrutiny because, as I understand 158 00:13:15,399 --> 00:13:18,399 it, now, we've met a lot of people from Lancaster County and a 159 00:13:18,399 --> 00:13:24,399 lot of people that have been very close with the Wilmers for decades and know 160 00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:28,720 the family well. These people want to help. Now we're urging all of 161 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:33,360 these people to please talk to the FBI and the Virginia State Police with any 162 00:13:33,399 --> 00:13:39,000 information they have about Alan Wade Wilmer Senior at the same time, his brother 163 00:13:39,159 --> 00:13:43,240 Keith, the oldest brother who does not appear to be very close to Alan 164 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:48,639 in life, and his younger brother, Timmy, who appears to be significantly 165 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:54,039 closer on an emotional basis in terms of their personal connection. If you were 166 00:13:54,080 --> 00:13:58,919 looking at accomplices or someone who might have assisted in some way, as we 167 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:03,080 we've talked about with the movement of the cars and potentially boats, including the 168 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:11,279 Denny Wade Alan Wade Wilmer Senior's working fishing boat, the assistance of a second 169 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:16,639 person would be incredibly helpful and maybe even logical in some of these examples. 170 00:14:18,279 --> 00:14:22,679 It seems to me that for all the conversation about Keith Wilmer, actually I 171 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:30,720 think Timmy Wilmer, the younger brother who apparently was quite close to Alan, 172 00:14:30,759 --> 00:14:33,639 who's the middle brother of the three in that generation. Seems to me that 173 00:14:33,759 --> 00:14:41,200 Timmy needs significantly more time, attention, and resources because he could be an 174 00:14:41,279 --> 00:14:48,399 accomplice. We have this odd circumstance where he dies under kind of mysterious circumstances 175 00:14:48,519 --> 00:14:52,960 almost a year after his older brother died. Those new sources of information from 176 00:14:54,000 --> 00:14:58,080 our friends in Lancaster County have been incredibly helpful. And so I regard that 177 00:14:58,159 --> 00:15:03,440 as a real pos development. By the way, one comment that's been made 178 00:15:03,440 --> 00:15:07,759 by people that have known the family for generations is that their father, that 179 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:13,000 is Heath Allan and Timmy's father apparently was an exceptionally cruel man, or could 180 00:15:13,039 --> 00:15:18,360 be quite cruel, and was very abusive, and for whatever reason, much 181 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:24,919 of his anger and cruelty and abuse was directed at the middle son, Allan. 182 00:15:26,799 --> 00:15:31,320 So when you start to try to figure out where does all of this 183 00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:35,600 anger and lashing out, where does it originate? I think you have to 184 00:15:35,639 --> 00:15:41,200 take a look at the fact that Alan appears to have been very badly abused 185 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:46,240 by his father and sometimes by his older brother Keith as well. Timmy, 186 00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:50,200 the youngest brother, seems to be the one that sort of got by because 187 00:15:50,360 --> 00:15:54,200 the two older brothers, Keith and Allen, had taken the brunt of the 188 00:15:54,240 --> 00:16:00,120 abuse, especially Alan. Timmy who had his own troubles in life. There 189 00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:03,879 were drug issues and a number of petty crimes, and he was sentenced to 190 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:10,799 jail at several different points, often ordered to and to rehab programs, so 191 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:15,399 he clearly struggled with drugs through the course of his life. The youngest brother 192 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:19,759 seems to have skated on some of the abuse that the two older brothers suffered, 193 00:16:19,759 --> 00:16:23,919 but in particular people that have known the family for many years are highlighting 194 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:30,200 the fact that it's allan who with the nexus for this abuse from their father. 195 00:16:30,159 --> 00:16:34,279 Yeah, it does sound like in terms of logical next steps for the 196 00:16:34,320 --> 00:16:37,799 FBI and the VSP to take a look at it. Sounds like Timmy Wilmer 197 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:44,320 would be a next good step forward. We've had a number of people reach 198 00:16:44,399 --> 00:16:48,080 out and point us to the Murder of the Rappahannock article, which we are 199 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:52,080 very familiar with, and ask about Keith Wilmer. But I think that, 200 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:56,840 as you said, it is probably a good idea for Timmy Wilmer to get 201 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:00,799 a look as well. I would say one of the other popositive things that's 202 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,079 come out of this new development is the fact that we do have more and 203 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:08,559 more people talking about this case, and that is really only to the good. 204 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:15,640 The more people that talk about the case in present terms, the more 205 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:18,240 likely people are to have their memory jogged about things that may have happened to 206 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:23,119 them out on the parkway or adjacent to the Parkway. The number of tips 207 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:27,480 that we've had come into us from people who remembered seeing Wilmer's truck, or 208 00:17:27,519 --> 00:17:33,000 who had an encounter with Wilmer, whether it's at the Yorktown Pub or the 209 00:17:33,079 --> 00:17:36,920 Victory Monument or out on the Parkway. That has been tremendous. I had 210 00:17:36,960 --> 00:17:40,960 no idea there were that many people out there who had that kind of experience 211 00:17:41,039 --> 00:17:45,960 with him, And certainly that is only to the good. That information is 212 00:17:45,039 --> 00:17:49,039 very important to law enforcement. We certainly hope that they're getting all of the 213 00:17:49,039 --> 00:17:52,680 information that they need from people, and again we do stress it is so 214 00:17:52,759 --> 00:17:57,039 important that you go forward to law enforcement with this information. So I would 215 00:17:57,039 --> 00:18:02,599 say just the fact that we are very much in the present conversation thanks to 216 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:07,839 our media partners at WAV and WTKR, WBC, really every media outlet over 217 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,960 here who has covered it. They have done a great job of making sure 218 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,559 that this case stays in the spotlight and that people are talking and sharing information. 219 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:19,119 Nothing good comes of silence. The more that we talk, the more 220 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,599 that we share, and the more information there is out there to assist law 221 00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:27,039 enforcement. I find that really positive. And speaking of law enforcement, I 222 00:18:27,079 --> 00:18:33,640 would love to see some sort of update in the next month. There has 223 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,839 to be some sort of interim report about what's going on in terms of what 224 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:45,480 leads are the various agencies developing. How can the public assist that they have 225 00:18:45,559 --> 00:18:51,279 any more information that they can provide. I hope they're taking a really careful 226 00:18:51,319 --> 00:18:56,359 look, not just a Keith the oldest brother, but Timmy the youngest brother 227 00:18:56,480 --> 00:19:00,720 as well. The other thing I've been thinking quite a bit about is with 228 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:04,920 Timmy's arrest record, I'm actually hoping that at some point, even though some 229 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,160 of those arrests were for not necessarily capital offenses, We're not necessarily talking about 230 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,599 rape or murder or something like that. But he's been arrested a number of 231 00:19:15,640 --> 00:19:18,680 times, and he's been in and out of jail several times prior to his 232 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:25,640 death in twenty eighteen. I'm hoping that somewhere along the line, law enforcement 233 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:32,039 took his DNA or fingerprinted him and there could be evidence which should be compared 234 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:37,440 against available evidence from the Colonial Parkway murders, because I think Tim Wilmer needs 235 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,160 a second and a third look here. Agreed. One of the questions that 236 00:19:42,200 --> 00:19:47,920 I think we all need to be asking ourselves at this point, law enforcement 237 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,319 more than anyone else, is how do we go about making sure that all 238 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:59,440 of the cold cases in this area are being sufficiently reinvestigated to see if they 239 00:19:59,519 --> 00:20:03,079 may, some way or another be connected to Alan Wade Wilmer Senior. And 240 00:20:03,160 --> 00:20:07,400 that starts with Parkway adjacent cases like Lori M. Powell and Brian Puttinger, 241 00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:12,400 that extends to cases like Donna Canaday and Chesapeake. I think that local law 242 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:18,319 enforcement should really be taking a close look at any cold case murders from around 243 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,079 that time period, the mid eighties late eighties, and really ask themselves, 244 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,079 is there any potential for this to be linked to Alan Wade Wilmer Senior? 245 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:32,720 And if so, are we doing a reinvestigation on it? I really hope 246 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:36,440 that's being done, and I have faith that there are people in law enforcement 247 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:41,000 who are asking that same question and making those same determinations. One of the 248 00:20:41,039 --> 00:20:45,880 examples of the kind of case that I think should be looked at that was 249 00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:52,119 recently solved is that of Stafford County resident Jacqueline Lard. She was also murdered 250 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:59,720 in nineteen eighty six, and they've recently identified her killer. He's still a 251 00:20:59,759 --> 00:21:06,039 lot and he was arrested and the announcement was made on March fifth. So 252 00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:11,880 a man named Elroy Harrison, whose aged sixty five, was arrested. This 253 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:18,880 is after a DNA match and this followed a trajectory which is very similar, 254 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:25,200 I believe to how the Robin Edwards and David Nobling case was cracked, how 255 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:30,960 the connection was made to Teresa Howell. Note how this all worked. November 256 00:21:32,039 --> 00:21:36,720 nineteen eighty six, Jacqueline Lard was raped and murdered. She was working at 257 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:42,799 a real estate office in Stafford, Virginia. In twoenty twenty one, the 258 00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:48,920 Stafford County Sheriff's Office, together with Prince William County and the FBI and the 259 00:21:49,039 --> 00:21:55,319 DEA worked together. Interesting that the Drug Enforcement Agency was involved as well. 260 00:21:55,799 --> 00:22:00,480 They were able to extract DNA from the available evidence from this nine in eighty 261 00:22:00,519 --> 00:22:06,720 six rape and murder. This evidence was sent down to DNA Labs International in 262 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:11,440 Florida and DNA Labs International in Florida, which had also worked on the Robin 263 00:22:11,519 --> 00:22:18,839 Edwards David Noblin case without success. In this particular example, DNA Labs International 264 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:25,319 was able to extract a working profile and we thank them for their outstanding work. 265 00:22:25,599 --> 00:22:32,119 And then they turned the DNA profile over to Parabon Nanolabs in Virginia who've 266 00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:36,640 done some outstanding work. We know the folks there and they did the forensic 267 00:22:36,759 --> 00:22:44,640 genealogy. As a result, Elroy Harrison was identified in December twenty twenty three, 268 00:22:44,759 --> 00:22:49,440 a family name was created so they had a working name, and then 269 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:55,640 they were able to identify Harrison as the offender in February, So this is 270 00:22:55,839 --> 00:23:00,400 only last month. What's amazing about this is finally now we have an offender 271 00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:07,279 who's identified for the rape and murder of Jacqueline Lard. Through further work, 272 00:23:07,519 --> 00:23:12,359 they've identified this same man, mister Harrison, is also likely responsible for the 273 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:17,720 rape and murder of an eighteen year old young woman named Amy Baker up in 274 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:23,640 Fairfax. The analysis that they did on the DNA which led to the arrest 275 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:30,319 also led them to the unsolved nineteen eighty nine murder of Amy Baker in Fairfax 276 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:37,319 County, and then Stafford County and Fairfax County joined forces and worked together. 277 00:23:37,519 --> 00:23:44,000 They have not yet charged mister Harrison with the murder of Amy Baker, but 278 00:23:44,079 --> 00:23:48,960 that appears to be pending, so I think that is coming. When you 279 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:53,599 look at this case, all of this originates with a sake grant, a 280 00:23:53,680 --> 00:24:00,680 sexual assault kit Initiative grant, just like Robin Edwards and David Nobling. So 281 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:06,359 you can see how even though we don't know all the details about how Robin 282 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:11,119 Edwards and David Nobling's killer was identified, we know that DNA Labs International was 283 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,279 involved. We know that after they were unable to get a profile because the 284 00:24:15,319 --> 00:24:19,359 amount of DNA was very small and very degraded in the Robin Edwards and David 285 00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:26,160 Nobling example, it went to another private lab. We weren't sure which private 286 00:24:26,279 --> 00:24:29,400 lab that was, and we still don't know for certain, although I'm sure 287 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:33,680 at some point law enforcement will tell us. My thought at the time was 288 00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:37,400 that if it went to one of the top labs in the country, it 289 00:24:37,519 --> 00:24:41,559 probably went to Athram, Body or Parabon, just to name three of the 290 00:24:41,559 --> 00:24:48,079 top DNA labs. Very interesting that Parabon is credited in these recent arrests in 291 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:56,920 Stafford. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Athram Body or Parabon in the 292 00:24:56,039 --> 00:25:03,599 Robin Edwards David Nobling example. Either way, outstanding work by these labs and 293 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:08,319 that has resulted in an arrest of a living person. This guy is still 294 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:15,359 alive and we'll be facing a significant sentence if he's found guilty of these two 295 00:25:15,680 --> 00:25:21,799 rapes and murders. And I'm hoping that they'll be able to identify other victims 296 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,200 of this man. Mister Harrison. Yeah, agree, this is best case 297 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:33,640 scenario. When law enforcement agencies and DNA labs work together, amazing things happen. 298 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:40,359 And this is just the latest example. You're listening to Mind over Murder. 299 00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:59,279 We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here 300 00:25:59,319 --> 00:26:04,000 at mindover Murder. Interestingly enough, my aunt. My aunt is on a 301 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:10,480 cruise and she goes on a significant number of cruises, like they go multiple 302 00:26:10,519 --> 00:26:14,440 times a year. She doesn't. She's at spotty Internet where she is right 303 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,599 and she can only get unreliable headlines. But she she texted me the other 304 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:22,200 day when she was able to and she said, Oh, a headline about 305 00:26:22,200 --> 00:26:26,079 an unsolved nineteen eighty six cold case in Virginia just popped up on my phone, 306 00:26:26,079 --> 00:26:27,160 but I can't read it. She goes, is it yours? Is 307 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,079 it y'all? But I was like, no, it's not, but thank 308 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:33,480 you for trying to catch up on it. She's, oh, yeah, 309 00:26:33,519 --> 00:26:37,839 no problem. But I love the fact that everyone in my life suddenly is 310 00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:41,160 a tuned to cold cases from Virginia from the late eighties. But here she 311 00:26:41,279 --> 00:26:45,319 is. She's in French Polynesia right now with my other aunt. Yeah, 312 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,359 seriously, they're on a like a thirty day cruise to French Polynesia. And 313 00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,759 she texted me and said, I can't read the whole article, but I 314 00:26:52,799 --> 00:26:57,279 heard nineteen eighty six Virginia cold case. Is this y'all creeps into the whole 315 00:26:57,319 --> 00:27:00,480 rest of my family. Oh, I think that's great. And at the 316 00:27:00,519 --> 00:27:06,680 same time, we don't know Jacqueline Lard's family or Amy Baker's family, but 317 00:27:06,839 --> 00:27:10,720 boy, I think I can put myself in their place, and I have 318 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,440 a bit of a sense of what they've been through. This is a long 319 00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:18,119 time to wait, but they finally have answers, and in this example, 320 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,920 they actually have an offender who's been clapped in irons and is heading off to 321 00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:29,160 face trial. This is phenomenal news. And I think this trajectory, this 322 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:34,160 plan that they implemented with great effect in the Jacqueline Lard Amy Baker example, 323 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:41,799 sounds like the very same approach, and this is something that we have to 324 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:47,319 praise law enforcement. The Virginia Department of Forensic Science and the state Police and 325 00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:52,440 all of the agencies. I love the fact that these two counties are working 326 00:27:52,519 --> 00:27:56,839 together help solve these cases, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Elroy Harrison 327 00:27:57,119 --> 00:28:03,680 named in other cases. Is I sincerely doubt that these are the only two 328 00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:07,680 people who's ever attacked. I'm hoping that the rest of law enforcement agencies around 329 00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:11,359 Virginia are taking note on this and realizing, look, there is the potential 330 00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:17,599 here, the very good potential to solve cold case homicides, especially ones that 331 00:28:17,799 --> 00:28:21,759 have been languishing for a while. They just need to be willing to go 332 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,319 back into it, to do the work, to get the sake grants, 333 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:27,480 and to have somebody carry the ball all the way down the court. But 334 00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:32,359 I think this is tremendous news. This gives us a lot of hope for 335 00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:37,240 what may come up as the investigation unfolds. Here. The current question, 336 00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:41,079 though, that I have, and I guess we'll take this back to we 337 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:42,960 can go with frustrating, but I'm also going to go with infuriating here. 338 00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:49,559 I do not understand why the VSP and the FBI are working so hard to 339 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:56,039 divorce the noveling and Edwards murders from the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders by 340 00:28:56,079 --> 00:29:00,319 renaming it the Isle of Wight murders. No one has ever called this case 341 00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:07,119 the Isle of Weight murders up until now. Why why are they working so 342 00:29:07,319 --> 00:29:11,880 hard to divorce the Edwards and the Nobling cases away from the rest of the 343 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,119 Colonial Parkway murders cases, She asked hypothetically, because I think I know, 344 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:18,400 but I want to hear your thoughts on it. Well, I'll say it, 345 00:29:18,519 --> 00:29:22,839 and these things need to be said. I think this is incredibly irresponsible 346 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,039 of the FBI and the Virginia State Police to do this. I think they're 347 00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:34,079 actively misleading the public. You can't say that Alan Wade Wilmer Senior had nothing 348 00:29:34,119 --> 00:29:38,559 to do with the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders. Yes, the Virginia 349 00:29:38,599 --> 00:29:45,839 State Police spokeswoman said, there's nothing connecting these cases. Forensically, we understand 350 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:52,640 that, but circumstantially they were looking at Wilmer four days after Keith Colin Cassandra 351 00:29:52,720 --> 00:30:00,680 Haley disappeared, and I have heard nothing that indicates that he's not somehow involved 352 00:30:00,799 --> 00:30:06,039 in the disappearance of Keith call and Cassandra Haley, particularly when the FBI told 353 00:30:06,119 --> 00:30:11,759 the families at the private briefing that they were ninety nine percent certain he was 354 00:30:11,799 --> 00:30:15,319 the right guy. I don't know why they're doing this. I think if 355 00:30:15,319 --> 00:30:19,000 this is all about reputation management, they don't want to admit that they had 356 00:30:19,039 --> 00:30:23,519 Wilmer and let them go in nineteen eighty eight. I recognize that to tremendous 357 00:30:23,559 --> 00:30:27,519 embarrassment to the FBI, but it is what it is. So if we 358 00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:34,400 can't be grown up enough to admit our own failures and learn from our mistakes, 359 00:30:34,440 --> 00:30:38,440 then we can't move these cases forward. I think it's the height of 360 00:30:38,519 --> 00:30:44,680 irresponsibility, and it aims me to see the FBI and the Virginia State Police 361 00:30:44,839 --> 00:30:48,400 actively misleading the public in Virginia and across the country and around the world. 362 00:30:48,519 --> 00:30:53,640 Quite frankly, I agree entirely. This is all about reputation and face saving, 363 00:30:53,960 --> 00:31:00,400 and it is very irresponsible. It is exactly as you said, Bill, 364 00:31:00,759 --> 00:31:03,759 Mistakes were made. Mistakes happen. That is true in all aspects of 365 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:08,279 everything that we do and in everyone's life. You grow from learning from your 366 00:31:08,319 --> 00:31:11,599 mistakes. For being accountable for your mistakes, and for doing what you can 367 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:17,839 to rectify those mistakes, you do not grow, and you lose your reputation 368 00:31:18,279 --> 00:31:22,599 by concealing it, trying to well paper over it, or an other way, 369 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,319 refuse to be accountable for it. And that is exactly what the FBI 370 00:31:26,319 --> 00:31:30,519 and the VSP are doing here, and it is vastly irresponsible. We urge 371 00:31:30,559 --> 00:31:33,359 them to go ahead and take ownership of this. Okay, it is what 372 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:37,759 it is. It happened trying to divorce the Edwards novel in cases away from 373 00:31:37,799 --> 00:31:41,519 the rest of the Colonial Parkway murders by giving them some brand new, arbitrary 374 00:31:41,599 --> 00:31:45,720 name. They have never in all the years that we have been reporting on 375 00:31:45,759 --> 00:31:49,319 this case and following this case been called the Isle of White murders. Don't 376 00:31:49,359 --> 00:31:53,200 confuse people by doing this now, because that is all that it's doing. 377 00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:56,960 It is leading to confusion. Don't do that. The mistake is what it 378 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,440 was. It's time to own it, put on our big boy, big 379 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,400 girl pants, and deal with it. Agreed. It's been a pretty big 380 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,240 busy couple of months for Bill and I. It should go without saying, 381 00:32:08,359 --> 00:32:12,480 but we've said it here a couple of times this episode. But it's going 382 00:32:12,519 --> 00:32:15,720 to be a couple of big busy months coming up, and we are so 383 00:32:15,799 --> 00:32:21,640 excited to be able to share some really interesting and exciting events that are coming 384 00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:25,039 to you live in April and in May. Billy, you want to go 385 00:32:25,079 --> 00:32:30,359 ahead and start spilling the details. We have been approached about doing Mind over 386 00:32:30,519 --> 00:32:37,160 Murder live events. That is, we're going to record this podcast with a 387 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:44,400 live audience on April fifteenth and again on May thirteenth at the Yorktown Library in 388 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,279 Yorktown, Virginia. They have a beautiful, state of the art facility. 389 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:53,400 They've been after us for a number of months, starting in conversation last fall, 390 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:58,279 and we had told them we knew there was going to be significant news 391 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,880 and a big announcement made in the Colonial Parkway murders, and that we wanted 392 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:08,200 to wait until after that announcement was made. So we revisited the idea of 393 00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:14,480 a live Mind Over Murder podcast event. So that'll be held on April fifteenth 394 00:33:14,759 --> 00:33:17,920 at six pm. It'll be from six to eight pm at the Yorktown Library. 395 00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,680 We'll get you all the details as they all come together. The second 396 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,640 event, which will be on May thirteenth, so it would be my birthday 397 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:32,799 by the way, Yes, we're celebrating Kristen's birthday. There's a dedicated advocate 398 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,160 for you. How do you want to celebrate your birthday? Kristen, Oh, 399 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,920 I want to do it to our mind for murder live show. After 400 00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:45,599 the end of a work day with teenagers. I do this for you guys. 401 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,960 That's very kind. So they'll be two parts to this thing. We're 402 00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,200 going to be doing a live podcast and it'll be a discussion like this. 403 00:33:53,279 --> 00:33:58,079 We'll be reporting out on what's going on with the four double homicides and the 404 00:33:58,119 --> 00:34:01,720 Colonial Parkway murders and all the developments that have happened in this case. And 405 00:34:01,759 --> 00:34:07,400 then there'll be a real short break followed by a what I hope will be 406 00:34:07,559 --> 00:34:15,920 a freewheeling, provocative live question and answer session with questions from the audience. 407 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:20,639 In a perfect world, you'd come up identify yourself. If you don't want 408 00:34:20,639 --> 00:34:24,039 to be identified, you can use a last name or just whatever name you 409 00:34:24,159 --> 00:34:27,840 want. Make up a name. We're never going to know, well, 410 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:31,239 we won't know. We want to take questions from the audience courted, so 411 00:34:31,719 --> 00:34:34,719 you know, keep that in mind, So if you don't want to, 412 00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:38,440 you can use just your first name or any name you choose. The idea 413 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:43,760 is that we want to be able to answer questions from the public, and 414 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,920 this is a free event put on by the wonderful people at the Yorktown Library. 415 00:34:49,440 --> 00:34:52,760 We welcome you. We think this is going to be a sellout. 416 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:58,320 Although it is free, you are encouraged to sign up an advance because the 417 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:05,559 room holds ninety people and it's a beautiful facility. And obviously people around the 418 00:35:05,599 --> 00:35:08,400 world will be able to hear the Mind of a Murder podcast at a later 419 00:35:08,519 --> 00:35:14,719 date. This is something that we've been asked about for several years and we're 420 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:20,440 very excited to be able to bring Mind over Murder Live to you, and 421 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:23,239 if it goes well, we'll do it again. It's going to be a 422 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:28,039 party, for sure. My parents have taken this as an indication that I 423 00:35:28,079 --> 00:35:31,559 have somehow made it. This doesn't mean I'm famous or anything like that. 424 00:35:31,719 --> 00:35:37,039 It doesn't make me a millionaire. It just means I'm hanging out and doing 425 00:35:37,119 --> 00:35:40,400 podcasting with ninety of my closest friends and my podcast partner. But they love 426 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:44,480 the idea that they could come and watch me live. They're not going to 427 00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:47,440 because that's way past their bedtime, but they do love the idea that they 428 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:52,840 can come watch me live should they choose to. Six to eight pm is 429 00:35:52,880 --> 00:35:57,719 too late. My mom's in bed by seven, okay, because she's also 430 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,639 up at four in the morning. She's a crazy person. Would it make 431 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:05,920 any difference if she found out that our good friend Joyce called Canada is going 432 00:36:05,960 --> 00:36:08,800 to be there as a special guest, It just might. We are so 433 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,559 thrilled that Joyce will be joining us. I know that public speaking is not 434 00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:16,559 her favorite thing, but she is willing to be there and sharing the experience 435 00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:20,679 with both of us, and we're pleased by that. And we'll have special 436 00:36:20,679 --> 00:36:22,920 guests in May, but we'll announce those at a later date. So this 437 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:30,639 is Monday, April fifteenth, and then again Monday, May thirteenth, Kristin 438 00:36:30,679 --> 00:36:35,679 Dilly's birthday at the Yorktown Library. We'll be getting information out on all of 439 00:36:35,679 --> 00:36:38,880 our social media pages, so you know, and we would love to see 440 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,639 you there. Yes, absolutely, we are looking forward to that. And 441 00:36:43,679 --> 00:36:45,159 the other big event, of course, is going to be Crime Con, 442 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:51,199 which this year is in Nashville. It is May thirtieth, June first, 443 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:54,559 and June second. We will of course be on podcast row. We have 444 00:36:54,679 --> 00:36:59,960 some other stuff that we're cooking up in addition, so stay tuned for more 445 00:37:00,159 --> 00:37:04,199 information. About the things that we are doing at crime Con, but we 446 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,280 are very glad to be back at crime Con for our sixth crime CON's. 447 00:37:07,679 --> 00:37:12,639 I've had fewer than you have because you were at Austin. We've done quite 448 00:37:12,639 --> 00:37:15,000 a few crime cons though it's pretty crazy. We are very excited though, 449 00:37:15,039 --> 00:37:19,280 to go to crime Con. In addition to the amazing guest speakers in programming 450 00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,760 is to me all of you. We are so thrilled and so pleased every 451 00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:27,719 time that we get to meet someone who listens to the podcast. We absolutely 452 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,239 appreciate your support and your enthusiasm, so please do make it a point to 453 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:36,519 go to crime Con. All of that information is available on crime CON's social 454 00:37:36,559 --> 00:37:39,159 media sites there all over the place. It is just a wonderful time and 455 00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:43,800 we really cannot tell you how much we enjoy it. It is beyond all 456 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,400 measure. We are always looking for five star ratings and reviews to help us 457 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:50,440 grow our pod and our audience, so if you have not already done so, 458 00:37:50,519 --> 00:37:52,199 please take the time to leave us a five star rating in review on 459 00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:59,119 your podcast platform of choice. Please also join our social media pages Colonial Parkway 460 00:37:59,199 --> 00:38:02,239 Murders and Mine Over Murder, and we do have merch. If you go 461 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:07,119 to teapublic dot com you can get mindover Murder logos on pretty much anything, 462 00:38:07,599 --> 00:38:12,840 mugs, t shirts, hoodies, everything that you could possibly want. So 463 00:38:12,920 --> 00:38:15,599 please do feel free to buy some mind Over Murder merch and if you bring 464 00:38:15,639 --> 00:38:20,719 it to our live events, we will even autograph it for you. That 465 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:23,159 is going to do it for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you 466 00:38:23,199 --> 00:38:37,440 so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is 467 00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:43,599 a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill 468 00:38:43,679 --> 00:38:49,000 Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme 469 00:38:49,079 --> 00:38:53,199 music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral 470 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,000 Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 471 00:38:59,199 --> 00:39:02,599 You can also followollow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and 472 00:39:02,679 --> 00:39:07,159 finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. 473 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:10,559 Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.