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Let's pray. This goes okay with
a very unrebellious student Infidel, telling us

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all about prayer in the UK in
a world where prayer seems to be answered

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with a firm no. Mikaela's Community
School stands TAUS a beacon of discipline and

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order, much to the chagrin of
one student who, despite her fervent prayers

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for divine intervention, the High Court
is upheld the school's ban on rituals,

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citing its commitment to maintaining discipline and
order. While she may see it as

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a divine injustice, it does underscore
the ongoing debate about the role of religion

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and UK education and the ectonomy of
schools set to their own policies. Who

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needs prayer when you have the guiding
principles steering the way? And this story

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is brought by The Guardian by Sally
Wheel April sixteenth, twenty twenty four.

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But in all serious I have to
say that the student knew what they were

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getting into. The parents were precursively
warned of what was going to happen and

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what to expect. They have very
strict guidelines for not just prayer. It's

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not like they're being singled out.
But I will have to say that.

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I'm glad to hear that the student
is not going to leave the school over

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this, because I do think this
does present a good educational opportunity for them.

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Whether I agree with the school's methods
or not, that would be something

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a little different I'm not going to
go into. But that's basically what's going

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on here. The student said hey, I want to pray, students started

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doing so, and the ultimate the
school said no, and now courts,

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the courts themselves as sided with the
school itself saying no. This is divisive

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and will not breed the type of
environment you want to say. I hear

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you say that, but Emma and
I were both British. Here we will.

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Emma will understand what I'm about to
say. Here To hear religion band

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in a school in the UK is
absurd when you have religious and faith based

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schools up and down the UK thanks
to the good old Judge of England,

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the Roman Catholic Church, et cetera. Everywhere you turn, and you have

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parents up and down the UK doing
what's the word I'm looking for. It's

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not church, but they do church
by Oh look, I'm going to church

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just so I can get my kid
into school. I can't think of the

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correct term for that, but to
hear that a judge's gone. Now religion

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is not allowed in school for Britain
quite happily up and down goes yeah right.

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We could do religion anywhere you like, in any school you like.

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It just seems a bit hang on
a minute, which is all a bit

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odd. You know what I'm want
about, don't you? Ever? When

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you've got like the c OFV School
around the corner, the Roman Catholic school

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around the corner, and you've got
a presentation Catholicism and presentation Anglicanism where people

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do rock up on a Sunday and
go, yeah, the guy got I

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go to church? Yeah, Yeah, I'm good. I'm a good Christian.

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Yeah, my kid going to this
lovely school. Yeah. And it

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does seem to be all a bit
around the whacker do here because case the

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strictest headmaster, the strictest head mistress
in the UK. I mean, good

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grief, what is eineteen fifties we'll
be going back to the TV show that

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will teach you with Srvore. I
mean, did they have the sixteenth rule

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as well? They've got the rule
of four where you can't have more than

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four together. And I mean seriously, I mean, was it like that

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when you were a school because it
weren't like that when I was at school

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and I did go to a religious
school. Was it like that for you?

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And did you go to a school
that was, you know, the

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strictest school in England? Well,
I went to a Church of England school,

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which girl school as well. I
went to a school as well,

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I think most of us did.
And I would say the Church of England

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schools is a pretty much performative religion
because we had a statue of Jesus on

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the front of the school and that
was sort of as far as it was

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in the school grounds. Oh we
didn't. We didn't have anything like that.

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Now I did. It does feel
a bit. I just kind of

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feel like and I think part of
my bias is that I am a skeptical

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and atheist and I find the concept
of asking your faith adherence to pray five

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times a day because it was originally
supposed to be fifty. I find that

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all to be a little bit absurd
anyway, And I do kind of just

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think that because there are alternatives,
like either go to a school that's got

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a million insane rules, or you
go to a different school where you don't

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have to have those rules. Choice
to prayer at the right Hobson's choice though.

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You're doing Hobson's choice there though,
because the child doesn't have a choice

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as to which school they go to. The parent chooses for the child.

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So that's a Hobson's choice, And
I found that to be quite galling in

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the I'm a judge guy, so
which belies the fact that the child didn't

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choose to go to this school.
Oh yeah, And I'm that's part of

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what makes me more a lot more
sympathetic to the story, because you know,

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this is a kid who your school
is your life, and you've got

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your friends there and blah blah blah, And ultimately it is, in my

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opinion, a parent being picky.
But I still all, don't I still

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kind of think that this is fine. That if it's going to be a

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stuffy school in a million other ways, then I guess it can be stuffy

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in this way, and the parents
chose to send them to a stuffy school,

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and then politicians, of course it's
going to be a stuffy school.

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I mean exactly did she sella bravaman
was on the first board of governors.

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I mean, you've got Kenny bad
and not going and sticking her fingers in

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the pie, and you've got Rishis
sooner go oh, it's just like,

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why are you sticking your fingers in
this pie? Oh? Wait, you're

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good friends with the headmistress here.
It was just sing it's a bit a

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bit weird, but heaven. What
was it like when you were going to

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school? And what's it like in
America where they have no religion in school

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and they keep fighting over it in
court? Well, fun fact, I

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went to Calva School when I was
going, Oh you're a post girl,

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you're one of those Did you go
to a religious school? Did you go

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to a religious school? You see? But so so the difference is though

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that like even still like we would
have services, but they were completely like

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if like it was Easter, we
would have We always had good Friday off,

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but we would have a service Thursday
towards the end of the day.

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You had to go to regular classes
all day and then if there was a

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service, it would either be first
thing in the morning or the last thing

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in the day. It wasn't not
to interrupt the flow of the school days

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too much. And also like this, one of the benefits of going to

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Catholic school is that a lot of
the religious stuff is kept separate. So

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like we would have religion class and
science class because they were considered two separate

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subjects, you know classes in Boma, Well we did not, Yeah,

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we don't know. I have creationism
classes. That's why I find the whole

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ye see thing like fucking weird.
So because I didn't grow up with that,

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you know. So, But what
I found really interesting about this when

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I was reading through this story,
I was like, oh, I'm curious,

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and so like in American schools,
like you can you can pray in

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school. You can like if you
like, if you're having lunch and you

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say grace over a meal, you
can't. You are allowed to read whatever

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religious texts you want to. You
can carry a Koran, a Bible,

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you know, the Toro, you
know, the Vedas, whatever, like,

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whatever religion you follow and there's religious
texts that is important to you,

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you can carry it with you and
practice your faith as long as it doesn't

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disrupt other students. And there's no
proclamation from the staff of any so like

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staff can't you know, actively pray, you know, with the students,

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you know, but they're they're not
even prevented like they can. If they

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themselves can want to pray over their
meals and take time for meditation and prayer

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throughout the day, they can,
but again, it cannot interrupt the flow

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of the school day. So when
I was reading this, I was like,

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this sounds like the same thing we
do in the United States, Like

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you can practice your religion, but
it can't be to an extreme where it's

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interrupting the whole school day. And
if you have to pray to Mecca five

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times a day at certain times during
the day, but you're supposed to be

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like an English class, you can't
play in Mecca in the middle of English

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class because that's because Yeah, so, Intel, you're the only one out

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of the three of us here who
didn't go to a religious school. You

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just said, so, how do
you see this case as somebody who did

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not go to a religious school.
I think first that I probably see it

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colored from the perspective of someone who's
fighting the influx of Christianity here in our

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own schools, even in the public
sector, So that probably colors my perspective

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quite strongly bias against religion in general. I would school in a public school.

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I did my best to absolutely hide
any connection I had with religion because

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being raised in a very small minority
faith in a very Catholic city, I

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wanted to have nothing to do with
the way I was raised as far as

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in public because I wasn't living that, so why take on that responsibility.

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So for me, the idea of
wanting to bring your religion to school and

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wrap yourself into it like a cocoon
seems odd in the first place, but

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I get it because that's what these
people are learning day in and day out

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on how to be a good person, whether that's for Islam or Christianity or

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whatever. And I do think that
in the UK there tends to be a

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more sanitized view of Christianity than hearsay
in Texas. King Charles is the head

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of the Church of England. You've
got the Archbishop of Canterbury, You've got

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faith schools up and down the country. You've got the establishment of religious schools

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from Hamy the eighth when he stole
the kasako off the pipemint. I'll be

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wearing that, not you, mate, and the school had a cool statue,

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so you know, unfortunately in our
world, that's not what being a

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Christian or a non circular organization is. So for me, I look at

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it and the one thing that I
will say is the school is probably not

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exactly the type of place for free
thought, but I am glad to see

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that they are having the right to
say, let's not bring in bad ideas

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and let's not share our bad ideas
among each other, because that's really all

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religion does bring to the team.
So just a bit of background on here.

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So the judge said that there was
indirect discrimination here against the Muslim students,

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but that was not overridden in the
application of the Equality Act to promote

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legitimate aim, which as it regular
views you will know as a legally trained

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person in the English legal system.
I'm going to go on a bit of

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a legal ranked here. So the
Equality Act has nine protected characteristic to one

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of those is your religion or belief, which was what was being used here

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to try to allow them as in
students to pray at school. The school

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said no, and they said that
this is not allowed because we are furthering

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a legitimate aim here which allows us
not to be required to allow you to

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do that. They said, hang
on a minute, I want to pray,

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I'm required to pray five times a
day, and the judge went,

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yeah, there was discrimination, but
the legitimate aim came first, and the

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legitimate aim that the school successfully argued
was the maintenance of an inclusive and productive

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educational environment, which for a free
school is quite a big thing. And

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in the UK of free school is
a school which is autonomous from government but

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still funded by the government, so
it has an independent board of governors,

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is independent from the local educational authority, reports to erectary Department of Education,

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and is ultimately able to set its
own rules, catchment areas, et cetera,

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which is why a conservative politician was
on the board of governors and is

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very pally with other conservative politicians,
whereas any other school you'd go, hang

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on a minute, what's going on
here. So that's a bit of the

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background here. But I am,
as a legal person, a bit confused

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by the judgment here, and I
think that an appeal could potentially be successful

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here because it is a matter of
degrees here. What is this educational environment

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that we're trying to promote here,
and could it be argued that the spiritual

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health of the person is part of
the educational environment as well, and as

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where a skeptical organization here and the
four of us are very skeptical people,

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do we believe that spiritual health,
as was put forwards, as one of

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the things forward here, is something
that we should be looking at. Emma,

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Well, again, I'm sort of
I'm inherently biased, as you've just

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pointed out, and I have long
been an advocate for raising children secular.

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I think that's the better way to
you know, it's not my way or

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the highway, but I personally think
that's the better way to raise a child.

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And it just kind of comes down
to what Helen was saying about what

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the US law is, which is
does it interrupt the flow of education potentially?

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And you know, if it's disrupting
classes for one student, does that

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one student's potential spiritual health? Which
is an incredibly difficult thing to try and

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gauge or measure does that how much
do you weigh that against potential disruption?

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And I don't think I know enough
about to be honest, I don't think

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I know enough about the Muslim faith
and Muslim prayer because as I understand it.

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You don't because she's staying at the
school as well, this student,

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and as I understand it, you
don't. There are ways to make up

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prayer if you don't have those prayer
time. And again, it does seem

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like that because there are alternatives.
To me, just you know, I

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think Infidel was explaining to me that
there is something what it was called?

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What was the word that you used
to describe make up prayers or some thing?

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Is you used a very specual world? What was that word you used?

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Or you know. The problem is
is I use it and typing and

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I didn't bother seeing how tone you
know? So yeah, they but there

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is an official term for and designated
for people in exactly these situations. So

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the fact that you want to build
it as a situation of oh my god,

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it's the end of the world,
No, it's it's not. They

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can do it without having a scene
of thirty people laying their blazers out to

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kneel on in public when you're not
even supposed to have I think that that's

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just a fact clothing as well,
because blazers are actually quite a nice bit

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of kit. I mean, if
you're if you're gonna start kneel in a

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place. You're gonna get grass things
on it, You're gonna wear away the

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back. I mean, just think
about it. Please, don't sure your

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nice clothing has got better, because
if I was to say, em,

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knee high socks and a gingham dress, she had probably cringe at me.

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The straw boaters are going with that. My school uniform was purple, bright

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purple. To think about it,
mine was black with purple trim. That's

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nice. I went to account the
school that did not have a school uniform.

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Why I got to wear pants?
What kind of what kind of progressive

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Catholicism were you? Braizy? But
I don't want to ask this one question

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of the panel. Do we think
that it was right on the judge to

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say, no, you may not
pray at school? I'm sorry, what

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was that? Do you think it
was right in this case for the judge

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to turn around to the students go
nope, you may not pray. Oh

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this is this is where my fickleness
about freedom comes in because but at the

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same time, like if you're given
time throughout the day, like caught up

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prayer, I think you were trying
to stay infid that if you're allowed to

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make those up throughout the day.
Then I'm kind of like, well,

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you're you still have it out.
You still have the right to practice your

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faith. So if the judge said, like, hey, you can do

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it, but you can do it
under these circumstances, then I don't understand

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why people can't adapt to that standard. You know, because he was a

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he like the parent chose to put
him into the school system, you know,

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And it was pointed out like,
you have the freedom of choice,

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you have the freedom of religion,
which means that like if you wanted them

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to go to a stricter, more
religious school, you could have put them

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into a stricter, more religious school. So I don't know, you can

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throw it Ramadan fasting. Would you
have required the student to eat something in

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the daytime if they went to this
school, or would you have said,

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look, you have to eat something
or you can't come to school. No.

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I went on said that no,
because I understand because that doesn't enter

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up the school day, but it
could do, because it could have a

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physical education. Because because then because
there's also really like Christian rituals where people

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fast. So are we going to
say that this is part of my religious

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practice, but it's not disrupting anybody
else. Then I'm not going to say

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like, no, you have to
eat something, you know. I think

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that does raise the question here where
do the standards lie? And I think

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I think it's time to decide with
you, the viewer, as to where

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your standards lie or this story