WEBVTT

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Welcome back to the Path with Chili. I'm Robin, I'm Jules, and

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I'm Ashley. Let's dive right into
this week's case. November thirtieth, nineteen

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sixty three, West Hollywood, California, after not being heard from for over

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two days, the nude body of
twenty two year old actress Karen cups in

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It is discovered on the couch inside
her apartment. Her death is initially suspected

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to be a drug overdose, but
when the coroner discovers a broken hyoid bone

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in Karen's throat, he rules that
she was a victim of strangulation. Years

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later, Karen's death would be linked
to conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination of President

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John F. Kennedy and allegations that
she made an anonymous phone call to warn

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people of his death minutes before it
happened. After that, the Path went

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chilly, So today we're going to
be exploring an unusual cold case, the

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unexplained nineteen sixty three death of Karen
coupsonant I originally covered this one in an

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episode of The Trail Went Cold,
which I released on November the twenty second,

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twenty seventeen. As that just happened
to be the fifty fourth anniversary of

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the assassination of President John F.
Kennedy. Well, this series of episodes

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is not going to be analyzing the
JFK assassination, because that would have to

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be twenty or thirty parts law.
Instead, we're going to be focusing on

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the death of an actress named Karen
Coupsonant, which occurred just over one week

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later under almost circum stances. There
shouldn't be any reason to link these two

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events, but to give you an
idea of how far reaching the JFK conspiracy

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theories go. There's some people who
believe that Karen cups in It was murdered

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because she knew too much about the
assassination. In fact, there's even's been

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speculation that she made a phone call
on the morning of the assassination and tried

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to warn people that it was going
to take place. I decided I wanted

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to revisit this one because when I
attended the True Crime Podcast Festival in Dallas

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last year, I paid a visit
to the JFK Museum, which is located

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in Daily Plaza at the building which
used to be the Texas School Book Depository.

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So you can stand right next to
the spot where Lee Harvey Oswald supposedly

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fired the fatal shots. After I
went there, I decided to go down

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the rabbit hole and start researching the
assassination again. So on this episode,

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I'll probably have some new thoughts about
it and the so called connection to Karen

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cups in it. Regardless of whether
or not you believe it as any connection

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to JFK, Karen's death is still
a pretty striguing mystery in its own right

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and well worth exploring from all possible
angles. Okay, you have me fascinated.

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I am obsessed with hearing different philosophies
and conspiracy theories about the JFK assassination.

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But even bigger than that Robin you
nailed it, like, maybe it

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has nothing to do with the JFK
assassination. And one of the things we

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hear all the time is someone saying, like, I want to know why

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this happened, but we know it
happened. Karen had her highoid bone broken,

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which means someone strangled her to death. So no matter what the why,

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we have this young model actress who
is found deceased and murdered and we

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don't know what happened to her,
So just like the JFK mystery, hers

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is equally important to saying, like
what happened to her? Not just why,

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but what and who? Which I
can't wait to hear more exactly.

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Like, it's possible that the whole
JFK angle has kind of muddled a case

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bit, that it might be spirit
steering it into conspiracy theory territory and kind

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of distracting from the real facts.
But like you said, regardless of whether

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or not there is a connection,
she still seemed like she was the victim

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of a very strange death and she
deserves a resolution. Our story begins in

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West Hollywood, California, in nineteen
sixty three. Our central figure is twenty

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two year old Karen Cupsinett, who
originally hails from Chicago, the home of

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her parents, Irv and Si Cupsinett. IRV Cupsinett, who usually went by

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his nickname Cup, was one of
the most prominent recognizable figures in Chicago,

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as he was a gossip columnist for
the Chicago Sun Times for several decades,

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hosted his own syndicated TV talk show, and worked as a radio announcer for

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the Chicago Bears. Football team.
Karen used her influential family name to break

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into acting before she moved to Hollywood
and made her screen debut with a bit

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part in the nineteen sixty one Jerry
Lewis comedy The Ladies Man. Which side

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note you because Jerry, is this
the same Jerry Lewis? That is the

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guy that married the thirteen year old? Or is that a different Jerry Lewis?

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Oh, that's Jerry lee Lewis,
the piano player. Okay, okay,

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I was like, but The Ladies
Man. But Jerry Lewis sounded kind

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of like a bit of a creep
as well. He had a lot of

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women in his lifetime, and he
was not particularly attractive all right. Over

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the next two years, Karen's acting
jobs would mostly be guest spots on television

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shows, and her final role was
on an episode of Perry Mason, which

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did not air until after her death. After doing a guest appearance on the

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TV series The Wild Country, she
became romantically involved with the show's star Andrew

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Prine. However, even though Karen
wanted to settle down, get married,

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and potentially start a family with Andrew, he did not wish to make their

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relationship exclusive and wanted to keep dating
other women. In July nineteen sixty three,

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Karen became pregnant with Andrew's child,
so she traveled down to Tijuana to

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have an illegal abortion and was accompanied
by her friends Mark and Marcia Goddard.

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Mark Goddard was also an actor and
went on to play the role of Major

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Don West on the TV series Lost
in Space, and he agreed to pay

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for Karen's abortion. How sad,
I mean, we've talked about this with

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other cases, but Karen, it's
nineteen sixty three. So this idea that

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she's a young actress, you know, she's in her prime. She's trying

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to book all of these roles,
and all of a sudden she gets pregnant

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with someone's baby who doesn't want a
long term, serious relationship with her,

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and so she's making a decision to
go down to Mexico and get an illegal

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abortion, and thank god she has
these two friends who are going to go

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with her, because of course Andrew
the father isn't involved or going with her.

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So really sad, difficult circumstance,
which also sets her up for some

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other problematic issues, right, like
is someone upset with her about the abortionist,

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someone upset with her about a relationship
with Andrew, Like, could some

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of those things have also later role
in what happened to her down the road?

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Is this a relationship, Robin that
you feel like Andrew just kind of

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overpromised and underdelivered and then when pushing
came to shove, he just wasn't there

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for Karen. That's what I'm guessing, Yeah, because I looked up Andrew

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Prine's biography and it says that he
had a spouse, but it's not clear

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to me if he ever got married
or have children. So he just sounded

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like a guy who wanted to date
a lot of women and just did not

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feel like settling down and having a
family. So it's probably similar to that

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episode we did last month about the
Judie Hyams disappearance, where she was another

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young woman who got pregnant with a
man who didn't seem to be interested in

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being a father, so she was
forced to have an illegal abortion on her

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own, but pretty much had to
fend for herself, and luckily she had

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some friends the Goddards, who were
willing to help her, and she did

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not die or anything like Judith Times
likely did, and neither man could bother

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to drive the woman that they were
with to their abortion, nor could pay

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for it. Like that's kind of
shocking, exactly, So thank god Mark

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Goddard seemed like a decent guy and
his wife right or Marcia yeah as well?

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Yeah yeah. So. In addition
to the abortion, Karen's entire personal

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life seemed to be in a tumultuous
state at this point, as she always

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had an obsession with her weight and
was abusing diet pills along with other prescription

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drugs. On the evening of November
the twenty seventh, Karen attended a dinner

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party at the Goddard's home in Beverly
Hills. Even though the dinner was scheduled

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to start at six thirty pm,
she arrived over an hour late. According

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to the Goddards, Karen barely ate
anything and mostly just played around with her

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food. She also looked like she
might be under the influence of something,

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as her pupils were constricted her lips. Her lips seemed numb, her voice

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sounded funny, and she was moving
her head around at odd angles. When

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Mark and fronted Karen about this,
she started crying before sharing an odd story

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about finding an abandoned baby on her
doorstep earlier that day. According to Karen,

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after she contacted the police, they
came to her apartment and took the

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baby away. Since the following day
was Thanksgiving, the Goodards invited Karen back

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for dinner, but she told him
that she and Andrew Pryne were planning to

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spend the day at the home of
actor Glenn Ford. Karen called a taxi

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to take her home at eight thirty, and she promised to phone the Gooddars

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later on. That's okay. So
you have Karen dealing with a lot of

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things here. This is not abnormal. If you're in the modeling actress industry

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even today, you're going to have
to make sure that you have the physique

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of what they tell you is beautiful. And unfortunately, the standards they've set

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for women specifically is that you need
to be tiny, you need to be

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itty biddy because clothes look better on
you. The camera adds weight, right,

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and that aging and gaining weight or
being a normal size person doesn't really

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get you a job. So Karen's
under this influence. In the nineteen sixties,

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she was pregnant and then had the
you know, had the abortion.

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Her hormones are probably all over the
place. She feels incredible pressure to be

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good enough, pretty enough, than
enough, and she is breaking into that

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industry, so I would imagine the
pressure was even more for her to continue

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to be successful. Back in the
sixties two, if you think about diet

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medications, they used to put crazy
things, Yes, and meth was like

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there would be mething, amphetamines would
be part of the concoction, and it

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was dangerous combinations. So when you
were saying she was moving her head at

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at angles and things like that,
I think it very well could have been

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some kind of high dose of Even
just the diet pills would have made her

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very her behavior problematic, And so
I feel sad for her. It does

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feel like everything's falling apart. And
then yet still she has sacrifice having a

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baby. If this story is true, that a baby's left on her doorstep,

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how psychologically damaging that you had an
abortion, You find a baby on

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your doorstep, You have to then
give that baby away. And now you're

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going to go hang out with the
man who got you pregnant and told you

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he didn't want a relationship with you, but now he still does want some

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kind of relationship with you. This
is not a healthy dynamic for Karen whatsoever.

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All the way around. He sounds
like a total f boy, right,

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Like that's just what he's there for. He's there for the good times,

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he's there for the fun times.
Who wants to sleep with her?

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But when it comes to any responsibility, he isn't there. But with regards

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to what you said about the drugs
that she could have potentially been taking,

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the side effects that she was having
would be in line with that. And

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also when you look at the story
about the baby, you have to wonder

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if given the situation with the abortion. I mean, there is a lot

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of hormonal changes that will go along
with an abortion. Things can happen.

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Somebody may, due to the physical
stress and the emotional stress and the physiological

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changes, may have a psychotic episode. So is it possible that due to

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the loss of what could have been
her baby, she's then somehow materialized this

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other baby that's been left on her
doorstep. I mean, what are the

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chances that she would go and have
this abortion and then just by chance,

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somebody chooses her home to abandon a
infant. It just seems unlikely. I'm

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not saying it couldn't happen, But
it almost seems like a nightmare, like

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something where when you're thinking right before
you go to bed, you know,

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and you're thinking about, oh man, these are all the bad things that

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could happen with this situation, you
fall asleep and all of a sudden it

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gets into this grandized, you know, reality in your head. It does

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sound like that's something that's very probable. Jeweles in my opinion, that she

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was fixated on this quote letting go
of her baby, getting rid of her

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baby, and then oh now this
is back in your face, like do

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you really want to get rid of
that baby? Did you make the right

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decision? I could absolutely see it
being something that is a psychological break where

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she envisioned that. I would love
to know if there were police records where

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the police really did come and take
a baby away. I'm assuming we don't

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have that information, right Robin.
We're actually going to talk about that later.

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There is no records of this whatsoever. So it seems very likely to

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me that she completely made up this
story and that there was no abandoned baby,

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and she could have just been on
drugs that she had trouble deducing fantasy

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from reality, and this whole story
maybe and concocted from her subconscious because she

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was feeling trauma and guilt about losing
a baby during an abortion. After returning

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to her apartment in West Hollywood,
Karen was visited by one of her friends,

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a writer named Edward Rubin, and
they decided to watch television together.

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Karen apparently had a pretty state of
the art television set for nineteen sixty three,

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so her apartment was often a popular
hangout for her friends to watch television.

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Karen excused herself and went outside for
a quick walk, where she wound

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up bumping into another actor friend of
hers named Robert Hathaway, and invited him

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up to the apartment. The three
friends and you to watch TV together until

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Karen started falling asleep on the couch, so she decided to head into her

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bedroom. According to Ruben and Hathaway, they weren't entirely sure if Karen had

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gone to bed, so they lured
the volume on the TV set and continued

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watching. They both said they exited
the apartment together at around eleven fifteen pm,

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claiming that they made sure to lock
the door behind them. This sounds

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incredibly probable, right if there was
just one of them, I'd say,

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oh, you know, did they
do something to Karen? But if two

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of them are sitting out there and
she's inviting these people into her home,

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they very likely know each other because
it's probably a smaller circle of friends who

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all live in a similar area.
Would I'd be more concerned if it was

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just one of them, But if
both of them sat and watched TV,

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if both can account for the other
one being present, and they walked out

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lock her little door behind them,
so she's safe. Maybe it's just friends

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coming over and being done for the
night. At least I'm hoping that's the

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case. Yeah, there really isn't
anything particularly suspicious about them. As we're

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going to talk ab out, there
is kind of a long lineup of potential

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suspects who could have killed Karen that
night, and these two were kind of

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looked at it. They were investigated, and but they both still held to

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this story that they were there together
and Karen, for all we know,

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00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:15.919
she could have gotten to bed or
passed out or something like that. So

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00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:18.240
they just decided, well, we
don't want to wake her up, and

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that's when they decided to leave together
and said that they locked the door behind

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00:15:22.440 --> 00:15:26.840
them, so by the evening of
No Remember the thirtieth, Mark and Marcia

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00:15:26.919 --> 00:15:31.360
Goddard became concerned because Karen had not
phoned them in three days, so they

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00:15:31.399 --> 00:15:35.000
decided to pay a visit to her
apartment. The front door turned out to

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00:15:35.039 --> 00:15:39.320
be unlocked, so the Gaddards let
themselves inside and were shocked to discover that

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00:15:39.399 --> 00:15:43.159
Karen's new decomposing body was lying face
down on the couch with flecks of blood

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00:15:43.159 --> 00:15:48.440
on her face and a nearby pillow. The television set was on and playing

215
00:15:48.480 --> 00:15:50.600
at a very low volume, and
the apartment appeared to be in a state

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00:15:50.639 --> 00:15:54.480
of disarray. A half empty cup
of coffee was resting on a stand,

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00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:58.240
a coffee pot in a brandy sniffed
or full of cigarette puts were on the

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00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:03.799
floor. Sixteen cigarettes were strewn around
the couch, and a lamp was overturned.

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00:16:03.320 --> 00:16:07.200
A bathroom was laid across a chair
in the living room, and a

220
00:16:07.240 --> 00:16:11.360
towel was found on the bathroom floor. When police were summoned to the scene,

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they found a number of rambling notes
throughout the apartment which Karen had written.

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00:16:15.879 --> 00:16:19.039
The notes contained sentences like quote I'm
no good, I'm not really that

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00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.759
pretty. My figures fat and will
never be the way my mother wants it.

224
00:16:22.960 --> 00:16:26.080
Why must I be so alone?
What's the use of living with nothing

225
00:16:26.120 --> 00:16:32.559
to believe in? There's nothing only
phony motives, selfish egoists, selfless people,

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00:16:32.759 --> 00:16:36.840
fat heads and drunks, And I
want out? End quote. Karen

227
00:16:36.879 --> 00:16:41.240
also left behind a notes listing famous
people she liked, including President John F.

228
00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.919
Kennedy. This would turn out to
be somewhat prophetic, but we'll get

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00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:48.000
into that a little later. All
right, I'm always a little bit cognizant

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00:16:48.039 --> 00:16:53.639
of letters left behind or found that
aren't purposely placed in like a you know,

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this is a note I'm leaving at
my time of death, because my

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00:16:57.039 --> 00:17:02.960
god, if you happen to share
your ideas in a diary or a journal,

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00:17:03.120 --> 00:17:06.640
or you make notes, or you
are kind of processing things on paper,

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00:17:07.039 --> 00:17:08.519
you could look around my home and
find some things where you went,

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00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:11.920
Oh, she's she's struggling, or
look at this, this is proof she

236
00:17:12.000 --> 00:17:17.480
wanted out. It's like, no, no, I'm writing down my fears,

237
00:17:17.599 --> 00:17:22.359
my concerns, my angers, my
negative thoughts. It is possible that

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00:17:22.480 --> 00:17:26.599
Karen used that instead of telling other
people, right, she could have been

239
00:17:26.640 --> 00:17:30.839
a very private person. She also
could have not wanted to burden people around

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00:17:30.880 --> 00:17:36.079
her. Perhaps she felt healthier when
she got those negative thoughts down on paper.

241
00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:40.920
So I think you could make a
lot out of people's belongings if you're

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00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:44.880
looking at it after someone's death.
Now, when you are when you know

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00:17:44.880 --> 00:17:48.279
when something's out of place or a
concern. Now, I'm very bothered by

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00:17:48.319 --> 00:17:52.319
the scene that they walk into because
those guys say that they walked out and

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00:17:52.359 --> 00:17:56.799
locked the doors. That correct,
that's like the last time someone saw her,

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00:17:56.440 --> 00:18:00.839
exactly like they've always maintained that they
locked the door. So it is

247
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:04.880
possible that someone else could have gone
to her apartment and then Karen willingly unlocked

248
00:18:04.880 --> 00:18:08.920
the door and let that person inside, and that person killed her. But

249
00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:12.200
it's also possible that they could have
been misremembering as well, but they've always

250
00:18:12.240 --> 00:18:15.079
stuck to that story that they believe
they locked the door when they left.

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00:18:15.359 --> 00:18:19.079
Well, well, this is weird
because it seems like a very disturbed scene.

252
00:18:19.079 --> 00:18:23.720
And I'm assuming these two guys at
eleven fifteen didn't just ruin her home

253
00:18:23.759 --> 00:18:26.759
and then keep her safe and lock
her out, like lock her into her

254
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:32.200
house. It seems like she was
up having coffee or something's going on,

255
00:18:32.319 --> 00:18:37.079
and then you see that she is
nude and decomposing, face down on the

256
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.839
couch. They saw her go to
her room, so something happened. There's

257
00:18:40.920 --> 00:18:45.119
coffee out in a coffee pot,
which shows that she was waking up,

258
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:49.960
getting ready, doing something entertaining somebody. And then the multitude of cigarettes right

259
00:18:51.000 --> 00:18:55.599
there. Is it all hers like
chain smoking because she's stressed out or fixated

260
00:18:55.720 --> 00:19:00.000
or having an addictive, you know
kind of behavior, or are there multiple

261
00:19:00.279 --> 00:19:03.799
people in this room. It's a
concerning scene, much more to me than

262
00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.519
the letters themselves. So when people
walked in and we're going, okay,

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00:19:07.519 --> 00:19:12.319
she probably wanted to end her life. Maybe not, like the scene doesn't

264
00:19:12.359 --> 00:19:17.279
seem to match a scene of suicide. In my opinion. Quite honestly,

265
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I think the journal entries are kind
of like Schrodinger's cat. It's like a

266
00:19:22.000 --> 00:19:25.680
particle wants to try out, you
know, multiple pathways at the same time.

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When you're writing things in a journal, you may try out a scenario.

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00:19:30.680 --> 00:19:33.880
It may be like I am over, I'm done with this, and

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it's just you're playing that out.
You're almost acting it out in your brain

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00:19:37.640 --> 00:19:41.599
to see how it feels. But
you're not actually planning to take actionable steps

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00:19:41.640 --> 00:19:45.799
towards ending your life. There's something
about writing it down that can be cathartic

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00:19:45.839 --> 00:19:49.480
and may get out kind of the
point that you're trying to make. But

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I don't think that those notes would
be indicative of a suicide note personally,

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00:19:55.559 --> 00:19:59.680
just because you're airing you know,
your grievances and saying you're done, you

275
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.599
know, the earthly plane or whatever. Just the way she worded it didn't

276
00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:07.559
really seem like there was finality.
It just seemed like she was incredibly frustrated

277
00:20:07.880 --> 00:20:11.799
with the situation with certain people.
And I echo your sentiments as with the

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00:20:11.839 --> 00:20:15.519
scene, I'm curious about the door
knob. Was it a push doorknob?

279
00:20:15.720 --> 00:20:18.960
Did they have a key? How
did they lock the front door? I'm

280
00:20:19.000 --> 00:20:22.559
also curious about the cigarette butts.
But given the fact that we know that

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00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.359
Karen did entertain she had a state
of the art TV, it's possible that

282
00:20:26.440 --> 00:20:32.319
she might have just had an ashtray
that she didn't empty all that often that

283
00:20:32.519 --> 00:20:34.559
is true. I mean, when
they talk about how messy the apartment was,

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00:20:34.640 --> 00:20:37.799
it sounds like Karen's life was in
disarray in general. So for all

285
00:20:37.799 --> 00:20:41.440
we know, maybe she just kept
the apartment messi all the time, so

286
00:20:41.519 --> 00:20:45.400
it was very in character for her
to leave cigarettes laying around, but it's

287
00:20:45.440 --> 00:20:49.160
never really been confirmed by the two
other men whether the apartment was that messy

288
00:20:49.200 --> 00:20:56.559
when they originally left that night.
The content of Karen's writings could have been

289
00:20:56.599 --> 00:21:00.240
interpreted as a potential suicide note,
and some troubling things about her would soon

290
00:21:00.279 --> 00:21:06.240
emerge. When Andrew Prine was questioned
by police, he claimed that Karen had

291
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:10.480
spoken to him on the phone on
the afternoon of November twenty seventh and shared

292
00:21:10.519 --> 00:21:15.000
the same story that she had told
the Goddards about finding an abandoned baby on

293
00:21:15.039 --> 00:21:18.759
her doorstep. Andrew said that after
he arrived back home at his own apartment

294
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:23.119
at midnight, he called Karen back
and she informed him she'd called the cops

295
00:21:23.240 --> 00:21:27.880
who took the baby away. Since
this phone call took place after Ruben and

296
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:33.000
Hathaway had said they left Karen's apartment, this would turn out to be the

297
00:21:33.119 --> 00:21:37.160
last time she was confirmed to be
alive. However, the police had no

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00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:41.079
record of ever having picked up an
abandoned baby from her place on November twenty

299
00:21:41.119 --> 00:21:45.640
seventh, and found zero evidence to
indicate that Karen's story was true. Well,

300
00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:49.119
here's the thing, so tell me
the timeline again. We have that

301
00:21:49.400 --> 00:21:55.359
Karen is she going to the Goddard's
house and telling them about the baby before

302
00:21:55.440 --> 00:22:00.279
Andrew. It sounds like she told
Andrew during the afternoon of the twenty seven,

303
00:22:00.480 --> 00:22:03.000
then she went to the Goddard's house
that evening for the dinner and then

304
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.920
told that exact same story, and
the police apparently looked into it. There

305
00:22:07.960 --> 00:22:11.039
was no record of them ever having
paid a visit to her apartment on the

306
00:22:11.079 --> 00:22:15.359
twenty seventh to have collected a baby. And then at midnight on the twenty

307
00:22:15.359 --> 00:22:18.519
seventh, that's when she has her
final phone call with Andrew, and then

308
00:22:18.599 --> 00:22:22.279
she dies at some point in has
found three days after that. That's a

309
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:25.440
quite busy day. I mean,
she has this let's say she has a

310
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:27.160
psychotic break, or let's say the
baby's found on her doorstep, but I

311
00:22:27.160 --> 00:22:32.920
think it's more of this psychotic break
or manifestation where she envisions having this child

312
00:22:33.039 --> 00:22:36.559
on her doorstep. She goes to
pieces, she tries to get or she

313
00:22:36.680 --> 00:22:38.480
thinks she gets the police over there. Then she says, well, I'm

314
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:44.319
still going to go to this party. At the Goddard's house. She's struggling

315
00:22:44.400 --> 00:22:48.880
obviously with her eating there, so
you can tell her depression anxiety is pretty

316
00:22:48.920 --> 00:22:52.720
intense at that point. Then she
goes home and it's almost like she didn't

317
00:22:52.720 --> 00:22:55.640
want to be alone. She invites
her friend over to watch TV. She

318
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:59.839
goes outside and finds another close friend
of theirs and invites him up to what

319
00:23:00.160 --> 00:23:04.240
TV. And then about forty five
minutes after they say they left, she's

320
00:23:04.240 --> 00:23:10.480
on the phone with Andrew. So
if that's the last time we know she's

321
00:23:10.519 --> 00:23:15.920
talking to someone, what days her
body found? Thirtieth? Okay, so

322
00:23:15.000 --> 00:23:18.880
basically it's the morning of the twenty
eighth that she's talking to Andrew at midnight,

323
00:23:19.359 --> 00:23:26.599
and two days later her body's found. There are now so many questions

324
00:23:26.599 --> 00:23:29.880
of who else could she have been
exposed to, because it did seem like

325
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:33.759
she needed somebody present, or she
needed to be in contact with somebody even

326
00:23:33.839 --> 00:23:37.680
though she's exhausted, she's struggling,
right, she's kind of feels like her

327
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.920
world's falling apart. It sounds like
she was seeking people around her at that

328
00:23:41.000 --> 00:23:45.200
moment, so that would make sense, like because the door was found unlocked,

329
00:23:45.200 --> 00:23:48.359
that if someone else just happened to
stop by her apartment after midnight.

330
00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.119
She might have just decided to let
them in because she needed company, but

331
00:23:52.279 --> 00:23:56.440
it may have turned out that this
person was the one who ultimately killed her.

332
00:23:57.599 --> 00:24:02.599
There would be another disturbing of Alasia
when police discovered a pile of magazines

333
00:24:02.640 --> 00:24:06.759
and Karen's apartment which had been shredded
and cut up with scissors. During the

334
00:24:06.799 --> 00:24:11.279
preceding months, Andrew Pryne had found
a number of threatening messages on his doorstep,

335
00:24:11.519 --> 00:24:15.920
which were assembled together with letters and
phrases cut out of magazines. When

336
00:24:15.920 --> 00:24:18.720
Andrew told Karen about this, she
claimed she had been receiving the same threatening

337
00:24:18.759 --> 00:24:23.680
messages on her doorstep and even showed
them to him. While investigators started looking

338
00:24:23.720 --> 00:24:29.279
into these notes and found numerous fingerprints
on the paper and scotch tape which were

339
00:24:29.359 --> 00:24:33.680
used to assemble the cutout letters.
One year earlier, Karen had been arrested

340
00:24:33.680 --> 00:24:37.599
for shoplifting some books and clothing.
While she only got off with a fi

341
00:24:37.839 --> 00:24:41.000
in three years probation, her fingerprints
were still on file, and they turned

342
00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:45.759
out to be an exact match to
the prints on the paper and scotch tape.

343
00:24:45.119 --> 00:24:48.759
So yes, this meant that Karen
had cut up the magazines and assembled

344
00:24:48.799 --> 00:24:55.160
all the threatening notes before sending them
both to Andrew and herself. A search

345
00:24:55.200 --> 00:24:59.559
of Karen's diary also revealed that she
had been keeping records of Andrew's encounters with

346
00:24:59.599 --> 00:25:03.680
his new girlfriend, which meant she
had been spying on them. It was

347
00:25:03.720 --> 00:25:07.759
clear that Karen had not reacted well
to Andrew's decision to date other women,

348
00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:12.599
and seemed obsessed with rekindling the relationship. Andrew also confirmed that he did spend

349
00:25:12.680 --> 00:25:17.839
Thanksgiving at Glenn Ford's house, which
is where Karen told the Goodard she would

350
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:21.839
be, but both actors denied that
Karen had ever been invited to this get

351
00:25:21.839 --> 00:25:26.279
together. In addition, Karen had
told her family she was not traveling back

352
00:25:26.279 --> 00:25:30.160
to Chicago to spend Thanksgiving with them
because she had work to do on Perry

353
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.000
Mason, but this also turned out
not to be true since the episode she

354
00:25:33.079 --> 00:25:38.400
appeared in had already been filmed.
Okay, okay, bear with me here.

355
00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:45.440
Karen is obsessed and loves Andrew.
She's obsessed with him, she loves

356
00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.400
him. I guarantee you this is
a man. I'd love to know the

357
00:25:48.400 --> 00:25:49.960
age difference, but that it has
been telling her like, you know,

358
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:53.839
you're beautiful, I love you.
I enjoyed being around you. In a

359
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:59.920
moment where she doesn't really feel like
she's good enough for anybody, she gets

360
00:26:00.119 --> 00:26:03.400
pregnant by this man, and I'm
sure that very much complicated the relationship.

361
00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:07.759
That probably resulted in an argument saying, look, this is not serious to

362
00:26:07.799 --> 00:26:11.559
me. I don't want to be
your husband. I don't want a family

363
00:26:11.599 --> 00:26:15.200
with you, and he really is. She's starting to learn he's playing her,

364
00:26:15.599 --> 00:26:19.440
but that doesn't minimize how badly she
wants that family and that love that

365
00:26:19.599 --> 00:26:23.720
she's in vision to be true.
So this is the sixties. I can't

366
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:29.319
do much of anything like you know, harass you and text you or reach

367
00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:32.880
out to you. Her access to
him is very limited, and if he

368
00:26:32.880 --> 00:26:34.559
cuts her off, he cuts her
off. And so it would be driving

369
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:38.720
her mad to be thinking about the
fact that he's with somebody else. She's

370
00:26:38.759 --> 00:26:45.240
already mentally ill and struggling, so
add that need for Andrew to truly love

371
00:26:45.279 --> 00:26:48.000
her the way she loves him.
She's in a bad spot with him.

372
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:55.160
I think that it's sad that someone
didn't recognize she needed help, and that

373
00:26:55.240 --> 00:26:57.000
in the sixties, mental health was
not something that was at the forefront of

374
00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:02.640
a discussion because you can you can
list the things that any one of those

375
00:27:02.640 --> 00:27:07.079
would have made her mental health go
to pieces, And yet multiple ones are

376
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:11.599
happening to Karen. Here her telling
her parents that she couldn't travel back because

377
00:27:11.640 --> 00:27:15.240
she was working on a show.
Go back to that note where she's saying

378
00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:18.079
she's never gonna be good enough for
her mom. Her parents are high performing

379
00:27:18.119 --> 00:27:22.640
people. So if she was putting
pressure on herself, or if her parents

380
00:27:22.680 --> 00:27:26.240
were putting pressure on her, like
it could have been imagined pressure, right,

381
00:27:26.759 --> 00:27:33.559
I could see her avoiding the family
communication or reunion at the holidays because

382
00:27:33.640 --> 00:27:37.039
that's not a quote safe space for
her. That she's imagined that as a

383
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:41.519
place that brings even more stress.
So she uses her career as a way

384
00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.440
to keep some distance in what she
perceives as an unhealthy dynamic at her home.

385
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:49.680
But it really sounds like she's losing
in touch with reality. Those notes,

386
00:27:49.720 --> 00:27:56.759
as quote crazy or wild as they
seem, it's so indicative of her

387
00:27:56.880 --> 00:28:02.359
whole struggle, from the eating disorder
to the abortion, to the need for

388
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:07.640
this relationship, to not feeling good
enough him pretty it's sad, like I'm

389
00:28:07.640 --> 00:28:12.160
starting to feel this such tragic weight
around Karen for everyone in her life.

390
00:28:14.640 --> 00:28:15.960
Yeah, we're going to talk about
this later on in the episode, but

391
00:28:17.279 --> 00:28:21.200
Karen definitely did not have the nicest
relationship with her mother. It sounds like

392
00:28:21.240 --> 00:28:23.480
she got along well with her father, but her mother was something of a

393
00:28:23.559 --> 00:28:26.559
stage mom. So she's probably thinking
to herself, if I have to go

394
00:28:26.599 --> 00:28:30.359
back and have Thanksgiving with my family, my mother's going to be hounding me

395
00:28:30.400 --> 00:28:34.359
about my acting career, about my
relationship. She might be angry because I'm

396
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:38.519
not already married and have children,
so I can totally understand her making up

397
00:28:38.559 --> 00:28:42.480
excuses to not spend Thanksgiving with them, But like you said, there was

398
00:28:42.519 --> 00:28:47.200
just so much going on in the
fact when I don't think anyone realized this

399
00:28:47.279 --> 00:28:49.640
until after she died, But when
they found out that she'd been sending threatening

400
00:28:49.720 --> 00:28:53.920
letters to both Andrew and fabricating these
threatening notes to herself, that was just

401
00:28:53.960 --> 00:28:57.519
a major red flag. And I
think that's when they started wondering could her

402
00:28:57.599 --> 00:29:00.839
death have been a suicide or that
it had been an accidental drug overdose,

403
00:29:02.160 --> 00:29:06.680
because she clearly was needed some serious
mental help at that point. It just

404
00:29:06.720 --> 00:29:11.599
gave me a Cindy James Vibe with
the notes and the cutouts and stuff.

405
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:15.160
Oh exactly, yeah, very very
much. And keep in mind too,

406
00:29:15.240 --> 00:29:18.559
it's Thanksgiving, so she's already struggling
with an eating disorder, and she says

407
00:29:18.599 --> 00:29:22.960
her mom thinks she's too fat.
So that's another reason she wouldn't want to

408
00:29:22.000 --> 00:29:25.519
go home and be with her family, because again, is it real or

409
00:29:25.559 --> 00:29:30.039
is it perceived? But she set
up this narrative that her mother will never

410
00:29:30.079 --> 00:29:33.640
approve of her weight, her looks, you know, the way that she

411
00:29:33.200 --> 00:29:37.480
behaves. So God, Thanksgiving dinner
would be the worst thing to be home

412
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:41.079
with your family for if that's the
perceived relationship you have. It's harder if

413
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:45.599
you have an eating disorder too,
because there's going to be this constant discourse

414
00:29:45.079 --> 00:29:49.160
on your weight or your lack of
eating, or any number of different things

415
00:29:49.160 --> 00:29:52.440
where she feels like she's falling short. So yeah, I can completely understand

416
00:29:52.480 --> 00:29:56.359
her decision to skip that. So
there was a lot to indicate that Karen

417
00:29:56.480 --> 00:30:02.319
was a very troubled woman, which
was reinforced when thirteen bottles of prescription drugs

418
00:30:02.319 --> 00:30:04.839
were found in her medicine cabinet,
including I just looked these up. So

419
00:30:06.079 --> 00:30:11.480
desoxin is one of them, and
it is straight up methamphetamine, Milltown,

420
00:30:11.559 --> 00:30:17.039
which is an anti anxiety drug,
an Amvacile, which is some crazy amphetamine

421
00:30:17.119 --> 00:30:22.559
combination which is extremely strong. According
to Reddit, many of these bottles were

422
00:30:22.559 --> 00:30:26.799
either empty or half empty, so
the initial assumption from most people who knew

423
00:30:26.839 --> 00:30:30.279
Karen was that she had either taken
her own life or was the victim of

424
00:30:30.279 --> 00:30:36.200
an accidental overdose. However, the
case went in an entirely different direction once

425
00:30:36.279 --> 00:30:41.400
Karen was examined by the La County
Coroner, doctor Harold Kade, who estimated

426
00:30:41.440 --> 00:30:45.960
that her approximate time of death was
twelve thirty am on November twenty eighth,

427
00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.880
only about a half hour after she
last spoke with Andrew Pryne on the phone.

428
00:30:49.519 --> 00:30:53.759
According to doctor Kade, Karen had
a broken hyoid bone in her throat

429
00:30:53.880 --> 00:31:00.000
and enough damage to her neck to
indicate strangulation. Therefore, he officially ruled

430
00:31:00.119 --> 00:31:04.359
that Karen's death was a homicide.
This prompted the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department

431
00:31:04.440 --> 00:31:11.359
to launch a murder investigation and they
start looking at potential suspects. Remember that

432
00:31:11.400 --> 00:31:14.279
the one friend said that she was, you know, nodding her head and

433
00:31:14.359 --> 00:31:18.559
moving her head in odd angles.
It's very possible that the desk oxen or

434
00:31:18.799 --> 00:31:22.240
you know, the other kind of
amphetamines that she was taking, we're causing

435
00:31:22.279 --> 00:31:26.839
that reaction. But that was not
abnormal. Remember, we didn't know as

436
00:31:26.920 --> 00:31:32.920
much then as we know now about
psychiatry and about mental health drugs or diet

437
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:36.359
drugs or things like that. So
the things that yep, sure do make

438
00:31:36.400 --> 00:31:40.359
you lose weight, like meth,
were used. And so I think it's

439
00:31:40.400 --> 00:31:42.799
it's um they're looking and you're going, oh my god, there's thirteen prescription

440
00:31:42.960 --> 00:31:47.480
drugs. Will shoot. She's probably
begging for anything, to say thin,

441
00:31:47.799 --> 00:31:51.000
to figure out why she's so sad, to go back and forth, you

442
00:31:51.039 --> 00:31:55.400
know, looking for something that makes
her feel better. And so it's,

443
00:31:55.839 --> 00:31:59.759
oh man, it's just it's a
shame because you could tell someone someone dropped

444
00:31:59.799 --> 00:32:01.400
the ball here trying to help her, or she wasn't able to get the

445
00:32:01.440 --> 00:32:06.920
kind of help she needed. I
could absolutely see why people immediately thought this

446
00:32:07.000 --> 00:32:10.079
is a suicide, because people are
watching her kind of unravel throughout all of

447
00:32:10.079 --> 00:32:15.759
this. But then you guys said, look, you can't say this is

448
00:32:15.880 --> 00:32:19.480
a suicide. Look at the damage
to her throat into the bones, and

449
00:32:19.519 --> 00:32:22.640
her throat. It's very clear she
was strangled, and there's nothing still tied

450
00:32:22.680 --> 00:32:27.400
around her neck. She's not found
hanging or anything like that, which would

451
00:32:27.400 --> 00:32:29.880
indicate, well, of course it
could break that, it could break the

452
00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:31.400
highoid bone if she were to,
you know, let's say, hang herself.

453
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.279
But she didn't do that. So
all of a sudden, all these

454
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:38.160
things that make it so easy to
think, oh, she accidentally took her

455
00:32:38.200 --> 00:32:42.480
own life or personally took her own
life. Now you say there is a

456
00:32:42.519 --> 00:32:46.039
physical injury that we cannot look away
from. Someone pressed on her throat to

457
00:32:46.160 --> 00:32:51.680
break that highoid bone, and therefore
we have completely changed gears and we are

458
00:32:51.759 --> 00:32:54.519
chasing down a murder suspect at this
point. And like we talked about earlier,

459
00:32:54.640 --> 00:32:59.680
she was so desperate to have people
around her. I'm assuming the list

460
00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:04.519
of possible candidates is quite extensive.
And don't you both find this so frustrating

461
00:33:04.559 --> 00:33:08.000
that when we cover these cases and
somebody is struggling with mental health issues,

462
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.240
maybe they're there's some kind of suicidal
ideation or something that would lead people to

463
00:33:14.240 --> 00:33:16.559
believe that they're very troubled at that
time, and they're really going through it.

464
00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:21.599
It's like oh, well, obviously
it's suicide. That's what people jump

465
00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.799
to initially. But just because somebody
is struggling doesn't mean that that is a

466
00:33:24.920 --> 00:33:30.119
foregone conclusion. They would also be
more vulnerable in that situation, it would

467
00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.680
be easier to victimize them, and
I think sometimes we forget that with these

468
00:33:34.720 --> 00:33:39.880
cases. Incredibly true, incredibly true. People watch for individuals to be struggling,

469
00:33:39.960 --> 00:33:45.680
people look for more vulnerable targets,
And you are absolutely right, Jules.

470
00:33:45.720 --> 00:33:49.079
This is a woman who doesn't believe
in herself. This is a woman

471
00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:53.519
who's struggling with her mental and physical
health. She is going through a breakup,

472
00:33:53.599 --> 00:33:58.440
she's had an abortion, she doesn't
feel connected to her family. And

473
00:33:58.480 --> 00:34:02.599
so when you meet people that,
you can tell their immediate need to trust

474
00:34:02.720 --> 00:34:08.199
and be with people, whether they're
safe or not right. And so I

475
00:34:08.239 --> 00:34:14.440
think her mental and physical health would
put her as a very strong target to

476
00:34:14.519 --> 00:34:19.480
people who say she is physically and
mentally weak right now, and she would

477
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:22.920
become someone that I could hurt and
get away with it. And it's so

478
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:27.559
sad that you're right. When people
are struggling, it's not just a danger

479
00:34:27.960 --> 00:34:31.599
of themselves hurting themselves, but other
people looking I say that person's vulnerable,

480
00:34:31.760 --> 00:34:37.199
I can go after them. Well, Andrew Prime was at the top of

481
00:34:37.199 --> 00:34:40.519
the list of potential suspects as investigators
wondered if he might have killed Karen and

482
00:34:40.679 --> 00:34:45.760
Rage after finding out she had been
sending him threatening letters and spying on them.

483
00:34:45.239 --> 00:34:49.519
Well, it turned out that Andrew's
alibi witnesses just happened to be the

484
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:53.400
last two people to see Karen alive. After leaving her apartment. Edward Ruben

485
00:34:53.480 --> 00:34:58.199
and Robert Hathaway claimed they went out
for a drink at a bar before heading

486
00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:02.039
back to Hathaway's duplex, where he
and Andrew Prime were neighbors. Shortly after

487
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:06.880
they arrived, Prian decided to stop
by the duplex to hang out with them,

488
00:35:06.920 --> 00:35:09.960
and all three men claimed they chatted
and watched television together until three am.

489
00:35:12.199 --> 00:35:16.400
Reuben and Hathaway were all extensively interviewed
and investigate as possible suspects. They

490
00:35:16.440 --> 00:35:22.480
each took polygraph tests, which came
back inconclusive. One red flag occurred when

491
00:35:22.519 --> 00:35:25.679
the three men were reinterviewed three years
later, and Ruben changed his story,

492
00:35:25.960 --> 00:35:30.960
claiming that he and Hathaway went their
separate ways at the bar after leaving Karen's

493
00:35:30.000 --> 00:35:35.239
apartment and he spent the night with
two women he met there rather than going

494
00:35:35.320 --> 00:35:38.679
to Hathaway's apartment. But otherwise there
was no evidence to implicate any of the

495
00:35:38.760 --> 00:35:43.719
three men. And in their defense, the coroner believed that Karen was strangled

496
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:46.880
by a left handed person, and
none of them were left handed. That's

497
00:35:47.000 --> 00:35:52.719
terrifying. So okay, how would
we know that she was strangled by a

498
00:35:52.840 --> 00:35:57.679
left handed person. That's just ignorance
on my part. How well, we're

499
00:35:57.679 --> 00:36:00.599
going to talk about this probably on
our next episode. But there are some

500
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:04.800
issues with the credibility of this coroner, doctor Pates, So it's possible he

501
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:07.440
might have just pulled this assessment out
of his as ass and there's no way

502
00:36:07.440 --> 00:36:10.360
of knowing if she was actually strangled
by a left hand and a right handed

503
00:36:10.400 --> 00:36:14.440
person. Okay, So immediately in
my head, I'm thinking, okay,

504
00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.320
maybe, like the highoid bone was
pressed a certain direction. But let's say

505
00:36:17.320 --> 00:36:23.199
I grabbed you from behind, my
left hand could make the same impression as

506
00:36:23.239 --> 00:36:28.400
my right hand could from the front. I think that's right, But it

507
00:36:28.480 --> 00:36:32.800
seems like that would be a very
difficult conclusion to make. I also find

508
00:36:32.800 --> 00:36:39.639
it very difficult to understand how we
have Ruben, Hathaway and then Prine now

509
00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:44.679
associated on that night when that was
never mentioned before. Is that correct?

510
00:36:45.880 --> 00:36:47.599
I don't think so. Like they, I don't think they realized it until

511
00:36:47.639 --> 00:36:52.360
they started interrogating them, where they
just assumed Ruben and Hathaway left together,

512
00:36:52.440 --> 00:36:54.239
and then Pride is saying, oh, yeah, after I called Karen,

513
00:36:54.280 --> 00:36:58.920
we all hung out together that night. So it makes you wonder like if

514
00:36:59.360 --> 00:37:01.679
any of these and were responsible for
Karen's murder, than the others had to

515
00:37:01.719 --> 00:37:07.199
cover for them and provide an alibi. Another potential suspect was an aspiring actor

516
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:13.360
named David Lange, who lived in
the apartment directly below Karen's. He happened

517
00:37:13.400 --> 00:37:16.599
to be the brother of actress Hope
Lang, who'd earned an Academy Award nomination

518
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:22.159
for Best Supporting Actress her performance in
the nineteen fifty seven film Paid in Place.

519
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:25.360
On the night of Karen's death,
Lang had gone out on a date

520
00:37:25.400 --> 00:37:30.400
with Natalie Wood, who, ironically
enough, would suffer her own mysterious death

521
00:37:30.440 --> 00:37:34.920
two decades later, but that's another
story. Lang claimed he was drunk and

522
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:38.400
returned to his apartment at twelve thirty
am. The estimated time of Karen's death,

523
00:37:38.719 --> 00:37:43.519
but he went straight to bed without
hearing anything unusual. Well, a

524
00:37:43.559 --> 00:37:46.679
few days later, Lange allegedly told
a friend that he killed Karen, but

525
00:37:46.760 --> 00:37:51.800
when questioned by police, he maintained
he was just choking. Lange hit a

526
00:37:51.880 --> 00:37:55.960
history of erratic behavior and was known
for drunkenly entering other people's apartments without being

527
00:37:55.960 --> 00:38:00.719
invited, but no evidence tied him
to Karen's death. When police trusted the

528
00:38:00.719 --> 00:38:05.880
apartment, they did find fingerprints belonging
to Edward Ruben, but none of the

529
00:38:05.880 --> 00:38:09.159
other three persons of interest, and
a couple of unidentified prints which could not

530
00:38:09.239 --> 00:38:14.480
be matched to anyone. Well,
within the next few years, the investigation

531
00:38:14.519 --> 00:38:17.639
into Karen cups in its death would
go in a direction no one ever suspected.

532
00:38:19.599 --> 00:38:22.519
A lot of things to think about
in this little chunk. So they

533
00:38:22.599 --> 00:38:27.199
find fingerprints belonging to Edward Rubin.
But the problem is, y'all said that

534
00:38:27.360 --> 00:38:30.599
Karen had a great TV at the
time, and she really was like this

535
00:38:30.639 --> 00:38:34.840
party hub for people. So this
is one of those cases unless you had

536
00:38:34.840 --> 00:38:38.320
a suspect say, I have never
been inside Karen's apartment. I don't even

537
00:38:38.360 --> 00:38:42.480
know her, I've never been around
Karen's house and all of a sudden,

538
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.559
I find their fingerprints. Then what
else are we going to do? Because

539
00:38:45.559 --> 00:38:51.000
of course Edward Ruben's fingerprints were there, he was there the night that she

540
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:54.719
was last seen. Of course Andrew's
fingerprints were there. He's her boyfriend.

541
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:59.960
Of course, the friend that they
brought in with Ruben would have his finger

542
00:39:00.079 --> 00:39:05.840
prints there. So what's frustrating is
that, because so many people were welcomed

543
00:39:05.880 --> 00:39:09.280
into that home, the fingerprints would
basically be useless unless you nail down someone

544
00:39:09.320 --> 00:39:13.480
like I said that said yeah,
no, I've never been in that apartment,

545
00:39:13.519 --> 00:39:16.440
and bingo. We hit on it
years later when we have a fingerprint

546
00:39:16.519 --> 00:39:22.159
database, and it'd probably be a
red flag if they had found David Lange's

547
00:39:22.199 --> 00:39:23.880
fingerprints in there, because as far
as I know, I don't think she

548
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:28.559
ever willingly invited him in there,
So if they found his prints, that

549
00:39:28.559 --> 00:39:30.840
would look suspicious. But out of
all these people we talked about, Lang

550
00:39:30.920 --> 00:39:36.000
definitely seems like the most troubling where
he allegedly confesses that he killed Karen and

551
00:39:36.000 --> 00:39:37.639
then just says, oh, I
was only joking, Like that's the thing

552
00:39:37.679 --> 00:39:40.960
people just joke about to their friends. Yeah, I only confessed to three

553
00:39:42.000 --> 00:39:45.519
murders this morning. But you know, there's also Lang has that history of

554
00:39:45.559 --> 00:39:51.679
going into people's apartments without being invited, so that has that very bizarre field

555
00:39:51.719 --> 00:39:55.760
too. I'm praying that the guys
really did log up her apartment and wouldn't

556
00:39:55.840 --> 00:40:00.840
allow for someone like Lang to enter
the apartment. But again, Karen could

557
00:40:00.880 --> 00:40:05.360
have let him in as well,
And it could be too that they've fabricated

558
00:40:05.400 --> 00:40:07.840
that detail, like we see that
sometimes in cases they've got nothing to do

559
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:10.840
with the murder, but given the
guilt that they feel, they kind of

560
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:15.559
guild the lily a little bit with
regards to what they did to protect Karen,

561
00:40:16.239 --> 00:40:20.639
and they're saying, oh, we
definitely locked up well did you Was

562
00:40:20.679 --> 00:40:22.480
it a push lock? Was it
the type of lock that you could lock

563
00:40:22.599 --> 00:40:27.480
from the inside, Did you have
a key? Without these types of details,

564
00:40:27.480 --> 00:40:31.880
It's hard to know definitively if they
actually did that. So I don't

565
00:40:31.880 --> 00:40:36.400
know, the fact that this guy
is going into people's apartments is super creepy,

566
00:40:37.079 --> 00:40:39.599
But also the fact that his apartments
weren't found I don't think tells us

567
00:40:39.639 --> 00:40:44.480
definitively he wasn't there, especially given
the fact that the two men that were

568
00:40:44.519 --> 00:40:50.280
there earlier, their fingerprints weren't found. Correct Edward Rubens was, but Hathaways

569
00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:53.159
wasn't. Okay placed himself there.
But it's true you can enter someone's apartment

570
00:40:53.159 --> 00:40:57.320
and not leave fingerprints depending on what
you touch. I mean you could wear

571
00:40:57.360 --> 00:41:00.960
gloves too, right, So just
because he wasn't there doesn't mean the absence

572
00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:07.960
of evidence isn't the evidence of absence, Yeah, exactly so. At the

573
00:41:07.039 --> 00:41:10.639
time Karen died, the United States
was still reeling for one of the biggest

574
00:41:10.639 --> 00:41:15.159
tragedies in their nation's history, as
President John F. Kennedy had been assassinated

575
00:41:15.239 --> 00:41:20.679
while riding in his motorcade through Dealey
Plaza and Dallas on November the twenty second.

576
00:41:21.320 --> 00:41:24.159
Lee Harvey Oswald was identified as the
assassin who fired the failed shots.

577
00:41:24.199 --> 00:41:28.599
But as you well know, many
people have always believed that there's a lot

578
00:41:28.639 --> 00:41:31.280
more to this story, and the
Kennedy assassination has been the subject of more

579
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:36.719
conspiracy theories than any other event.
Ever, well, no one had any

580
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:40.239
angling that it might have a connection
to Karen consonant until nineteen sixty seven,

581
00:41:40.559 --> 00:41:45.360
when an author named Penn Jones Junior, known for being one of the very

582
00:41:45.400 --> 00:41:50.199
first Kennedy assassination. Conspiracy theorists and
a heavy critic of the war in commission's

583
00:41:50.239 --> 00:41:54.360
report, released a self published four
volume book about the event titled Forgive My

584
00:41:54.440 --> 00:42:00.559
Grief. Jones believed that the conspiracy
was so large that over one bill connected

585
00:42:00.599 --> 00:42:06.679
to the assassination died under mysterious circumstances
in the ensuing years. One significant event

586
00:42:06.760 --> 00:42:09.199
chronicled in this book occurred in Oxnard, California, at ten a m.

587
00:42:09.239 --> 00:42:14.840
Pacific time on November the twenty second, nineteen sixty three, a switch for

588
00:42:15.079 --> 00:42:19.039
operator received a phone call from an
anonymous woman who spoke in a low whisper

589
00:42:19.280 --> 00:42:22.840
and claimed that the President of the
United States was going to die in ten

590
00:42:22.880 --> 00:42:28.519
minutes. She started rambling on and
uttering cryptic statements like quote the Justice the

591
00:42:28.559 --> 00:42:31.159
Supreme Court, There's going to be
fire in all the windows. The government

592
00:42:31.239 --> 00:42:35.840
is going up in flames. The
government takes over everything, lock stock and

593
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.159
barrow end quote. The operator got
one of her co workers to listen in

594
00:42:39.199 --> 00:42:43.360
on the call, and at some
point they thought they heard the woman put

595
00:42:43.400 --> 00:42:46.239
the phone down and dial another number. When the operator asked the woman if

596
00:42:46.239 --> 00:42:50.400
she needed assistance, she said,
quote, Noah, I'm using the phone

597
00:42:50.639 --> 00:42:53.800
and stated the president was now going
to die at ten thirty. The call

598
00:42:53.880 --> 00:42:59.280
finally ended at ten twenty five Pacific
time, and within five minutes, President

599
00:42:59.320 --> 00:43:02.239
Kennedy would be dead, as the
fatal bullet struck him at Daily Plaza at

600
00:43:02.280 --> 00:43:08.559
twelve thirty pm Central time. What
in the actual hell are you serious?

601
00:43:08.599 --> 00:43:15.960
So there's somebody who did make a
phone call randomly spouting off this stuff about

602
00:43:16.400 --> 00:43:21.480
government conspiracy and then burning everything to
the ground and that he's going to die

603
00:43:21.559 --> 00:43:27.760
at ten thirty, which in California
would be twelve thirty Central time, and

604
00:43:28.039 --> 00:43:31.960
this person's accurate. Yeah, that's
what's so weird about this story. I

605
00:43:31.960 --> 00:43:37.400
mean, I'm sure like the government
or random operators received like a bunch of

606
00:43:37.400 --> 00:43:39.719
calls like this every day from people
who go on these wild ramblings that the

607
00:43:39.719 --> 00:43:43.519
president will be killed and such and
such is going to be happened. But

608
00:43:43.639 --> 00:43:45.800
this turned out to be the one
time or not only did the accurately predict

609
00:43:45.840 --> 00:43:51.199
the president's death, but they got
the exact time right. That's horrifying.

610
00:43:52.519 --> 00:43:57.000
Following the news of the assassination,
the call was reported to the FBI later

611
00:43:57.039 --> 00:44:00.440
that same day, and they believe
it had originated from the ox Nard area.

612
00:44:00.719 --> 00:44:06.400
It's certainly possible that the anonymous female
caller was suffering from mental health issues

613
00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:10.280
and that it was nothing more than
a massive coincidence that she predicted Kennedy's assassination,

614
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:15.599
but the fact that she got the
exact time right raised a few eyebrows.

615
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:21.239
Kennedy's motorcade was originally scheduled to arrive
at Daily Plaza at around twelve ten

616
00:44:21.280 --> 00:44:25.400
pm Central time or ten ten Pacific
time, which was the woman's original prediction,

617
00:44:25.679 --> 00:44:30.119
but there were delays and the motorcade
got held up about twenty minutes since

618
00:44:30.159 --> 00:44:35.199
the operators thought they heard the woman
attempting to phone someone else during the call.

619
00:44:35.599 --> 00:44:38.440
But she's somehow finding out about the
motorcaide's delay, which prompted her to

620
00:44:38.519 --> 00:44:44.840
change the time of the president's death
to ten thirty. This is really odd

621
00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:47.599
because she made the first call at
ten, so if she's saying he's going

622
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:52.880
to die in ten minutes, she
accurately predicted the time of death the first

623
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:57.000
time, when he quote should have
been shot or should have passed by that

624
00:44:57.079 --> 00:45:00.239
exact spot. And then, like
you said, you hear her fumble to

625
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.480
make a phone call and all of
a sudden, she's changing the time and

626
00:45:02.639 --> 00:45:08.480
again tells you the exact same time
that he does get shot when he passes

627
00:45:08.480 --> 00:45:13.519
that spot. So this is horrifying. Like she's literally on the other end

628
00:45:13.519 --> 00:45:17.519
of a phone with someone at the
location in Dallas. Or she happens to

629
00:45:17.559 --> 00:45:23.840
know somebody who's very well connected to
the assassination. Oh, I have chills.

630
00:45:24.119 --> 00:45:28.039
I don't know who this person is
or if it happens to be Karen.

631
00:45:28.119 --> 00:45:30.679
But how in the heck would she
know this to get it right?

632
00:45:30.920 --> 00:45:37.559
Not once twice she named the right
time twice. Well, now I'm going

633
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:40.039
to tell you about the alleged connection
to this case, believe it or not.

634
00:45:40.280 --> 00:45:45.079
Penn Jones, Junior believed that the
anonymous female caller might have been Karen

635
00:45:45.119 --> 00:45:50.199
Coupsinant, who was attempting to warn
people about the impending assassination. If you're

636
00:45:50.199 --> 00:45:53.119
wondering why a twenty two year old
actress in California would even have knowledge of

637
00:45:53.199 --> 00:45:58.000
something like this, Jones's theory was
that Karen may have learned about it from

638
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:01.880
her father or Earth Coupsinant aka Cup. You see, during the nineteen forties,

639
00:46:02.159 --> 00:46:06.519
Cup became acquainted with a guy who
might have heard of named Jack Ruby,

640
00:46:06.800 --> 00:46:10.000
who subsequently moved from Chicago to Dallas
in nineteen forty seven and became a

641
00:46:10.119 --> 00:46:15.679
nightclub owner. On November the twenty
fourth, nineteen sixty three, two days

642
00:46:15.719 --> 00:46:20.320
after President Kennedy's assassination, Lee Harvey
Oswald, was in the midst of being

643
00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:23.599
transported by police when Ruby shot him
to death on live television in front of

644
00:46:23.639 --> 00:46:29.119
millions of people. While the Warren
Commission concluded that Ruby acted alone when he

645
00:46:29.239 --> 00:46:32.719
killed Oswald, conspiracy theorists have always
believed that since Oswald was set up to

646
00:46:32.760 --> 00:46:37.519
be the fall guy in Kennedy's assassination, Ruby was assigned the job of silencing

647
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:43.840
him before he could reveal anything incriminating. Penn Jones Junior believed that the mafia

648
00:46:43.960 --> 00:46:47.800
somehow learned that Ruby told IRV Cup
Sinant about the assassination plot, and Cupp

649
00:46:47.840 --> 00:46:52.360
subsequently shared this information with his daughter, But when Karen tried to warn people

650
00:46:52.400 --> 00:46:57.400
and stop the assassination, the mafia
had her killed in order to send a

651
00:46:57.440 --> 00:47:01.159
message to her father to remain silent. It's very possible, I mean,

652
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:05.639
there is a link there, but
is it probable? Like, do you

653
00:47:05.800 --> 00:47:08.679
think if you learned I can't imagine
learning the president was going to be killed

654
00:47:08.800 --> 00:47:13.599
and then being like, you know
who I'm going to tell Reagan? Like

655
00:47:13.679 --> 00:47:19.000
that's who I'm gonna go tell my
Regan, not Ronald Reagan, No,

656
00:47:19.239 --> 00:47:22.880
my baby, Like if I learned
something so heavy, so dangerous, so

657
00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:28.800
important, am I gonna tell my
child? I don't care that she's little

658
00:47:28.840 --> 00:47:30.719
now, Like I can't see turning
to my thirty year old daughter, my

659
00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:35.320
twenty five year old daughter and saying, guess what I just learned? President's

660
00:47:35.320 --> 00:47:38.039
gonna die? Like what? Mom? That is? What? Dad?

661
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:42.039
That is a really big thing to
drop on me. And for a father

662
00:47:42.119 --> 00:47:45.440
to drop on his daughter who's already
struggling in what world? Does that make

663
00:47:45.480 --> 00:47:52.199
sense to share that very dangerous information
with Karen? It doesn't. It doesn't

664
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:55.239
make sense. She's emotionally and mentally
unstable. And I'm pretty sure that her

665
00:47:55.320 --> 00:47:59.800
dad, Cup would have been able
to spot the signs. So if he

666
00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:02.000
was going to relay this information to
somebody else to then share it, I

667
00:48:02.039 --> 00:48:07.119
would think it would be somebody who
wasn't his daughter, because can you trust

668
00:48:07.159 --> 00:48:13.159
somebody who is on a myriad of
different drugs and they're also clearly dealing with

669
00:48:13.280 --> 00:48:16.239
other emotional and mental health issues.
It wouldn't be the person who's going to

670
00:48:16.280 --> 00:48:20.480
be a steel trap. And exactly, and what's to say that Eerv cups

671
00:48:20.480 --> 00:48:23.039
in It, if he found out
information about the assassination of the president,

672
00:48:23.079 --> 00:48:28.159
wouldn't tell someone important, someone in
authority, because most people would be kind

673
00:48:28.159 --> 00:48:30.400
of shocked if her friend of yours
goes, oh, by the way,

674
00:48:30.440 --> 00:48:34.360
I'm involved in an assassination attempt on
the president and I'm going to kill the

675
00:48:34.360 --> 00:48:37.559
fall guy, the assassin, it's
like the first most normal people aren't going

676
00:48:37.639 --> 00:48:40.239
to say, oh, you know, I should tell my daughter that just

677
00:48:40.280 --> 00:48:44.559
before Thanksgiving dinner and stuff. So
it just seems like this is a major

678
00:48:44.599 --> 00:48:47.679
reach here where this guy is looking
for this elaborate conspiracy theory, trying to

679
00:48:47.719 --> 00:48:52.400
look at links between Karen cups in
It and JFK and all I can find

680
00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:55.480
was while her father might have been
acquainted with Jack Ruby, like fifteen years

681
00:48:55.559 --> 00:49:00.719
earlier. Well, of course,
Eerv cups in It believe these claims were

682
00:49:00.760 --> 00:49:06.559
absolutely ridiculous and staunchly maintained that neither
he nor his daughter had any knowledge of

683
00:49:06.559 --> 00:49:12.800
a conspiracy involving the Kennedy assassination.
Andrew Prine claimed on the evening of November

684
00:49:12.800 --> 00:49:16.199
twenty second, he and Karen had
traveled the Palm Springs with two other friends,

685
00:49:16.599 --> 00:49:21.760
and even though Karen was visibly upset
by JFK's death, she gave off

686
00:49:21.800 --> 00:49:25.400
no indication that she had any inside
knowledge or that she attempted to warn people

687
00:49:25.400 --> 00:49:30.639
about it Earlier that day. Two
phone operators from Oxnard also stated that the

688
00:49:30.679 --> 00:49:36.280
anonymous female caller sounded like she was
an older, middle aged woman and not

689
00:49:36.360 --> 00:49:39.679
a twenty two year old like Karen
was. In December nineteen ninety one,

690
00:49:39.800 --> 00:49:45.320
Oliver's Stone released the controversial hit film
JFK, which drove home the message that

691
00:49:45.360 --> 00:49:50.840
President Kennedy's death was a result of
a massive conspiracy. Herb Cups in it

692
00:49:51.000 --> 00:49:53.480
was a vocal critic of the film, and two months after its release,

693
00:49:53.920 --> 00:50:00.719
he became particularly upset when The Today's
Show published a list of mysterious death connected

694
00:50:00.760 --> 00:50:06.320
to the Kennedy assassination and listed Karen
Cups in its name. This prompted Cup

695
00:50:06.360 --> 00:50:10.239
to publish an angry column in the
Chicago Sun Times which he expressed his disgust

696
00:50:10.280 --> 00:50:15.679
at this and maintained that his daughter's
death had nothing to do with the assassination.

697
00:50:16.239 --> 00:50:19.320
Well, that's the thing. I
mean, you have this man who's

698
00:50:19.360 --> 00:50:22.079
going wait a minute, I got
questioned about maybe telling my daughter, who

699
00:50:22.480 --> 00:50:27.360
you know, gets killed because of
this link to JFK, when I knew

700
00:50:27.400 --> 00:50:32.679
nothing about JFK's assassination beforehand. And
then all of a sudden he's being part

701
00:50:32.760 --> 00:50:37.840
of a media report on the issue, and all of a sudden, his

702
00:50:37.000 --> 00:50:40.360
daughter, who's now deceased, is
named as a potential link to it.

703
00:50:40.719 --> 00:50:47.360
I would be absolutely furious too.
You guys are making these insane claims about

704
00:50:47.559 --> 00:50:52.440
not just my daughter but about my
family that you know, if you really

705
00:50:52.440 --> 00:50:55.360
go back and follow the link to
Karen, it's because Dad supposedly knew and

706
00:50:55.440 --> 00:51:00.800
told the wrong person, aka his
daughter, And it just all seems very

707
00:51:00.920 --> 00:51:02.840
heavy for someone to have to deal
with, To say, I already had

708
00:51:02.840 --> 00:51:07.840
to bury her, someone hurt her. We didn't know anything about this,

709
00:51:07.079 --> 00:51:10.320
you know, like this is something
that kind of through the whole world for

710
00:51:10.360 --> 00:51:15.679
a loop, and you're saying maybe
my daughter and myself inadvertently had something to

711
00:51:15.719 --> 00:51:21.880
do with it. It's beyond stressful, and it dishonors his daughter's legacy and

712
00:51:21.920 --> 00:51:25.119
puts blame on him for her death
too, which is very harmful and hurtful

713
00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:29.480
too. Yeah, that's why I
think is the worst thing is just trying

714
00:51:29.480 --> 00:51:32.920
to put yourself in the shoes of
a victim's family where she's been murdered and

715
00:51:32.960 --> 00:51:37.440
it's been nearly thirty years and you
still haven't found the real killer or god

716
00:51:37.440 --> 00:51:40.119
any insights into her death. And
then all these conspiracy theories are coming out,

717
00:51:40.119 --> 00:51:45.199
which not only like distract the investigation
and try to link your daughter's death

718
00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:50.559
to a major historical event, but
they're implying that cup was somehow complicit because

719
00:51:50.599 --> 00:51:53.400
he told her the secret information that
God or killed and that must be very

720
00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:57.639
difficult to hear when you know that
there's no truth to it whatsoever, and

721
00:51:57.679 --> 00:52:01.400
that it's just distracting from trying to
find out who was really responsible for killing

722
00:52:01.400 --> 00:52:07.079
your loved one. In the years
following Karen's death, her parents seemed certain

723
00:52:07.119 --> 00:52:12.119
that Andrew Prime killed her, and
see Cupson had even waged a personal of

724
00:52:12.280 --> 00:52:16.960
endetta against Prime and attempted to destroy
his reputation. Pride's acting career wound up

725
00:52:17.000 --> 00:52:22.519
suffering for a little while, but
he eventually recovered and amassed a large filmography

726
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.840
of over one hundred and eighty credits
before he passed away in October of twenty

727
00:52:27.119 --> 00:52:30.360
twenty two at the age of eighty
six. In nineteen eighty eight, earth

728
00:52:30.400 --> 00:52:35.320
Cupson had published an autobiography about his
life, in which he stated that he

729
00:52:35.400 --> 00:52:38.960
no longer believed Pride had anything to
do with his daughter's debt. Up now

730
00:52:39.000 --> 00:52:44.800
believed that the prime suspect was David
Lange and believed that Lang's wealthy family used

731
00:52:44.840 --> 00:52:49.679
their influence to prevent him from being
properly investigated until his death in two thousand

732
00:52:49.679 --> 00:52:53.039
and six. While Lang's acting career
never went anywhere, he wound up working

733
00:52:53.039 --> 00:52:59.159
for acclaimed director Alan J. Pakula, and even co produced Pakula's nineteen seventy

734
00:52:59.159 --> 00:53:04.719
one thriller which are In Jane Fonda
an Academy Award for Best Actress. Earth

735
00:53:04.800 --> 00:53:07.840
cups in It passed away in two
thousand and three at the age of ninety

736
00:53:07.840 --> 00:53:10.880
one, two years following the death
of his wife, Essie. It's also

737
00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:15.159
worth mentioning that Karen's brother, Jerry
cups in It, became a successful television

738
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:20.519
director who won two Daytime Emmy Awards
and was credited with creating the look and

739
00:53:20.599 --> 00:53:25.000
formula of the popular courtroom show Judge
Judy before he passed away in January of

740
00:53:25.000 --> 00:53:30.280
twenty nineteen at the age of seventy
four. But unfortunately, after nearly sixty

741
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:35.920
years, there are still no concrete
answers about the unsolved death of Karen pups

742
00:53:36.000 --> 00:53:39.480
in it. So I guess you
could say the path went chilly. I

743
00:53:39.599 --> 00:53:44.400
have to agree. When we talk
about everyone who's been involved, Lang does

744
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.599
seem to be the one who's most
suspicious. I don't know who jokes about

745
00:53:47.719 --> 00:53:52.079
killing somebody, And then when you
think about the fact that his family was

746
00:53:52.119 --> 00:53:58.599
incredibly wealthy. You see this very
frequently where you have a wealthy suspect who

747
00:53:58.840 --> 00:54:02.320
is not just air I get,
but almost plays with investigators like it's a

748
00:54:02.400 --> 00:54:07.400
joke to them, and the person's
life is not valued or important. The

749
00:54:07.480 --> 00:54:12.119
victim's not seen as a person.
It's an object. This is a game.

750
00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:16.719
It's funny, and there is this
entitlement, especially especially back in the

751
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:21.079
sixties, but even today when there's
you know, in the sixties there was

752
00:54:21.159 --> 00:54:25.400
far less transparency of what would happen
in an interrogation or interview. But I

753
00:54:25.440 --> 00:54:29.800
could see Lane sitting there knowing that
my family has plenty of money. I

754
00:54:29.840 --> 00:54:35.280
will get out of anything these people
throw at me. Money buys a lot

755
00:54:35.320 --> 00:54:38.840
of leeway and power in our justice
system. And I remember the days when

756
00:54:38.880 --> 00:54:42.039
I'd be like, Oh, that
didn't happen, right, Like, that

757
00:54:42.079 --> 00:54:46.400
doesn't happen, and oh my lord, you can't read true crime or listen

758
00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:52.199
to true crime and not know that
wealthy families, that people with money do

759
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:58.440
get preferential treatment and somehow dodge justice. And so Lang's a very probable suspect.

760
00:54:58.800 --> 00:55:02.360
I'm not so sure or that Prime
didn't have something to do with it.

761
00:55:02.360 --> 00:55:07.519
It doesn't feel like he would have
because he was getting stalked by Karen.

762
00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:12.440
He was still in communications with Karen, and it seems like he was

763
00:55:12.599 --> 00:55:15.800
very forward about Yes, I talked
to her that morning, I talked to

764
00:55:15.800 --> 00:55:17.679
her that night. This is the
last time I saw her. So it

765
00:55:17.719 --> 00:55:21.800
sounds like he tried to cooperate.
Doesn't seem like a stand up man.

766
00:55:21.920 --> 00:55:25.360
But that does not make him her
killer. I'm not quite convinced he's completely

767
00:55:25.400 --> 00:55:30.119
innocent yet, but laying for sure
on the surface seems like the best fit

768
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:32.679
at this point. Being a dick
doesn't make you a murderer, and so

769
00:55:32.960 --> 00:55:37.400
I agree with you. I don't
think he's the likeliest suspect. I can

770
00:55:37.480 --> 00:55:42.079
understand why he would be frustrated with
her, but I really can't understand why

771
00:55:42.079 --> 00:55:45.639
he would go back and murder her. It just seems unlikely. I mean,

772
00:55:46.119 --> 00:55:49.599
it would seem more along in the
lines of what somebody would do.

773
00:55:49.679 --> 00:55:52.800
You go to the police, and
you would complain about what she's doing and

774
00:55:52.039 --> 00:55:55.400
have the launch and investigation. I
mean, even then, even now,

775
00:55:55.480 --> 00:56:00.599
stalking isn't always taken that seriously,
and so I'm sure he probably wouldn't get

776
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:05.800
all that much traction with police,
But who knows. Laying On the other

777
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:08.079
hand, I would really like to
know what he is doing, because it

778
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:13.840
seems an established pattern that he liked
to go into other people's apartments without them

779
00:56:13.920 --> 00:56:17.159
inviting him or without their knowledge.
What was he doing in those apartments,

780
00:56:17.159 --> 00:56:21.440
what would he do once he was
in there? And did this ever make

781
00:56:21.480 --> 00:56:24.199
it to law enforcement? Do we
know any of that? Robin, unfortunately

782
00:56:24.239 --> 00:56:28.480
don't. Like that's the only detail
I read that he would walk into people's

783
00:56:28.480 --> 00:56:30.920
apartments. But I haven't heard of
anything about him, like being charged with

784
00:56:30.920 --> 00:56:35.920
any crimes, him ever being accused
of sexual assault. But like they said,

785
00:56:36.119 --> 00:56:38.440
if it's a wealthy and influential enough
family, if he did get in

786
00:56:38.480 --> 00:56:42.519
trouble for it, then they could
have maybe had the influence in order to

787
00:56:42.639 --> 00:56:45.079
sweep it under the rug, and
that's why he was never caught. But

788
00:56:45.440 --> 00:56:49.280
yeah, overall, I definitely think
he's the best suspect out of all of

789
00:56:49.280 --> 00:56:52.079
these people we've talked about. But
the problem is that there is just no

790
00:56:52.320 --> 00:56:54.760
definitive evidence to point to any of
them, which is why this case is

791
00:56:54.800 --> 00:56:59.480
still unsolved. So I think this
now would be a good time to bring

792
00:56:59.480 --> 00:57:01.719
an end to one. But join
us next week as we present part two

793
00:57:01.760 --> 00:57:07.599
of our series about the death of
Karen cupsonant Robin. Do you want to

794
00:57:07.639 --> 00:57:09.960
tell us a little bit about the
Trail Went Cold Patreon? Yes, The

795
00:57:10.000 --> 00:57:14.280
Trail and Cold Patreon has been around
for three years now, and we offer

796
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:19.519
the standard bonus features like early ad
free episodes, and I also send out

797
00:57:19.760 --> 00:57:23.159
stickers and sign thank you cards to
anyone who signs up with us on Patreon

798
00:57:23.320 --> 00:57:29.199
if you join our five dollar tier
Tier two. We also offer monthly bonus

799
00:57:29.239 --> 00:57:32.719
episodes in which I talk about cases
which are not featured on The Trail Went

800
00:57:32.760 --> 00:57:37.079
Cold's original feed. So they're exclusive
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801
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tier, Tier three, the ten
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802
00:57:40.519 --> 00:57:46.039
offer is a audio commentary track over
classic episodes of UNSAWD Mysteries, where you

803
00:57:46.119 --> 00:57:52.000
can download an audio file and then
boot up the original UNSAWD Mysteries episode on

804
00:57:52.039 --> 00:57:57.039
Amazon Prime or YouTube and play it
with my audio commentary playing in the background,

805
00:57:57.119 --> 00:58:00.880
where I just provide trivia and factoids
about the case is featured in this

806
00:58:00.000 --> 00:58:05.320
episode, and incidentally, the very
first episode that I did a commentary track

807
00:58:05.400 --> 00:58:08.320
over was the episode featuring this case. So if you want to download a

808
00:58:08.320 --> 00:58:14.079
commentary track in which I make more
smartass remarks about Juel Kaylor than be sure

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00:58:14.119 --> 00:58:16.039
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811
00:58:21.159 --> 00:58:24.199
Path Went Chili. We've got our
Path Went Chili minis, which are always

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over an hour, so they're not
very many, but they're just too short

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to turn into a series, and
we're really enjoying doing those, so we

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hope you'll check out those. Patreons
will link them in the show notes.

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So I want to thank you all
for listening and any chance you have to

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share us on social media with a
friend or to rate and review is greatly

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00:58:42.079 --> 00:58:45.519
appreciate it. You can email us
at the Path Went Chili at gmail dot

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00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.480
com. You can reach us on
Twitter at the Path Went So until next

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time, be sure to bundle up
because cold trails and chili pass call for

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warm clothing. Music by Paul Rich
from the podcast Cold Callers Comedy