WEBVTT 1 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:05.040 Wait, did you say Sunderland. Sunderland? Am I having a stroke? 2 00:00:05.960 --> 00:00:12.160 Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do 3 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:20.640 for your country. Mister Gerbatcheff, Tear down this wall, read my lips. 4 00:00:24.679 --> 00:00:27.839 It's the Rikoreshete podcast with Charlie Looks sitting in for Peter Robinson, Rob 5 00:00:27.879 --> 00:00:30.359 loong Us. Here. I'm James Lonnox and we're going to talk to Andy 6 00:00:30.399 --> 00:00:34.439 McCarthy because if there's an indictment, insign the doctor Andy so let's I was 7 00:00:34.439 --> 00:00:42.679 also podcast charging Donald J. Trump conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring 8 00:00:42.719 --> 00:00:48.840 to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. They 9 00:00:49.320 --> 00:00:52.759 were a disaster, they were a disgrace to our country, and we've caught 10 00:00:52.799 --> 00:00:58.320 them. We've caught them all. Welcome everybody. It's THEE Podcast, number 11 00:00:58.320 --> 00:01:02.079 three hundred and fifty three. How do we get this far? Simple? 12 00:01:02.520 --> 00:01:07.359 The raw power of ricochet dot com rules on decade to decade. Go there, 13 00:01:07.400 --> 00:01:10.239 by the way, take a look. You won't be able to see 14 00:01:10.280 --> 00:01:12.200 the member feed, which is where so much fine happens, because maybe you're 15 00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:15.040 not a member, but if you sign up, you'll be the keys to 16 00:01:15.040 --> 00:01:18.840 the kingdom will be granted, and you'll see exactly why we've been around for 17 00:01:18.920 --> 00:01:22.640 so long and done so many wonderful things, with the help of the founders, 18 00:01:22.680 --> 00:01:25.359 Rob Along and Peter Robinson, who is not here again. He is 19 00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:29.200 off, yeah, an anabasis of some sort, and we'll hear about them 20 00:01:29.239 --> 00:01:32.599 that soon. Don't worry, he's coming back. But sitting in his place 21 00:01:32.599 --> 00:01:34.680 in his stead is Charles A. CW. Cook, who, of course 22 00:01:36.120 --> 00:01:42.000 recently went on Ricochet to tease five point oh, the new version which is 23 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:45.000 coming soon and I can't wait it. Maybe we'll hear about that at the 24 00:01:45.079 --> 00:01:48.680 end of the show. But first, Rob, is it really five point 25 00:01:49.359 --> 00:01:52.280 five point? Did I miss a point zero or something? That I miss 26 00:01:52.280 --> 00:01:53.319 a point something? I thought it was three point oh, but I guess 27 00:01:53.640 --> 00:01:57.599 no, No four was the blue was the one that we have now at 28 00:01:57.599 --> 00:02:00.040 one point? Of course? Was? It was entirely more so. I 29 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:02.319 remember one point oh, believe me, it's got my blood and one point 30 00:02:02.319 --> 00:02:08.800 oh, that's right, and number doesn't work anymore. That's exactly what's you 31 00:02:08.840 --> 00:02:15.759 find so sclerotic and clotted with cholesterol. I remember two point which was all 32 00:02:15.759 --> 00:02:19.159 ticker tape delivered by pass by messenger pigeon. But that was great anyway. 33 00:02:19.159 --> 00:02:21.599 Before we began, Rob said, you wanted to throw a curve ball. 34 00:02:21.719 --> 00:02:24.560 Yeah, okay, I wanted to confess something to my to my friends on 35 00:02:24.719 --> 00:02:28.879 here and my friends listening. Uh. And I you know, I just 36 00:02:29.120 --> 00:02:34.199 want to. I want to. I want you to tell me if um, 37 00:02:34.240 --> 00:02:38.199 if this I mean, I'm just telling you my honest reaction. Absolutely, 38 00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:43.560 how I read this new story and you tell me if I'm a hideous 39 00:02:43.599 --> 00:02:51.919 race sister? Done? Uh? Two US Navy sailors were accused, um 40 00:02:51.919 --> 00:02:55.719 and arrested, I think of passing secrets to China. So they're arrested in 41 00:02:55.719 --> 00:02:59.800 California. They arrest the arrest of Wednesday. They're in California resid Wednesday. 42 00:03:00.039 --> 00:03:04.360 Separate cases accused of passing sensitive natural offense information and military secrets to Chinese agents 43 00:03:04.360 --> 00:03:13.039 can exchange for money. And I scrolled way down, way way way down 44 00:03:13.080 --> 00:03:17.039 in the article to see that one of them was the machinist mate named Jin 45 00:03:17.159 --> 00:03:24.199 Chow Way also known as Patrick Way and um no way uh yeah, and 46 00:03:24.360 --> 00:03:30.159 the other was a petty officer named when Hang Chow and when I read, 47 00:03:30.280 --> 00:03:35.080 also known as Thomas Chow or Zoo. I think the zh Zaoum, And 48 00:03:35.120 --> 00:03:38.240 when I read that, I went, oh, of course, of course, 49 00:03:38.919 --> 00:03:42.479 it just I mean, I'm not I'm not saying that I was right 50 00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.280 in this response. I'm not saying that, oh, I have a I'm 51 00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:50.400 just saying that my natural response when I read those two names of those two 52 00:03:50.879 --> 00:03:55.159 US naval officers charged with espionage for the Chinese government, my initial reaction was, 53 00:03:55.759 --> 00:04:00.759 yeah, I figured that. Then my second reaction, wait, don't 54 00:04:00.759 --> 00:04:04.919 tell me I'm not a racist yet. My second reaction was, shouldn't they 55 00:04:04.960 --> 00:04:11.120 have been keeping an eye on those guys? Well, that would depend on 56 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:14.240 a lot of things. I mean, if in the nineteen fifties you saw 57 00:04:14.280 --> 00:04:18.000 that a sailor had sold nuclear secrets to the USSR, you might think, 58 00:04:18.199 --> 00:04:23.600 I wouldn't be surprised if this is Ivan Ivanovich, you know, with something 59 00:04:23.639 --> 00:04:25.680 like that at the bottom of it, because you would think perhaps they had 60 00:04:25.680 --> 00:04:28.600 gotten to him through family connections. With the rest of it, that would 61 00:04:28.680 --> 00:04:33.079 not be an unreasonable reaction. As far as keeping tabs on them, I 62 00:04:33.120 --> 00:04:39.360 would say no, unless there was some reason, unless they had family ties 63 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:44.480 back to unless there was some hint that they had connections to the season. 64 00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:50.639 Otherwise I do we do we look at the guys who've got Venezuela and uncles 65 00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:54.759 and U and put them under the microscope, do we? We're not under 66 00:04:54.959 --> 00:04:58.800 We're not in a global competition with Venezuela. Last I check, was not 67 00:04:58.839 --> 00:05:01.240 a global hedge of on Um. I don't know. I mean, yes, 68 00:05:01.319 --> 00:05:08.079 I guess so your answer is yes, I am native born Americans who 69 00:05:08.079 --> 00:05:12.519 happened to have a particular ethnic heritage. Do not seem to be automatically suspect 70 00:05:12.680 --> 00:05:15.040 unless you got something that tells you keep an eye on that guy. Yeah, 71 00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:19.319 okay, no, you're quite right, A right. It seems to 72 00:05:19.399 --> 00:05:24.240 want to be a racist here. I don't. I really don't. I 73 00:05:24.279 --> 00:05:28.680 just I was. I was a present to my instant reaction, and I 74 00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:30.600 wasn't proud of it. I said, okay, I'm not gonna pretend I 75 00:05:30.600 --> 00:05:32.519 didn't have his reaction. And then when I didn't pretend I had the reaction, 76 00:05:32.519 --> 00:05:34.959 I thought to myself, Well, I mean, I know it's complicated, 77 00:05:35.000 --> 00:05:39.720 but I mean I was not surprised, And was I not surprised because 78 00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:44.079 I am, um, you know a bad person? Well do I is? 79 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.360 There is there is there something? I mean and now I'm going to 80 00:05:46.439 --> 00:05:51.759 complicate things by adding to it something that happened some a statement that was made 81 00:05:51.800 --> 00:05:56.800 in July twenty fourth by the CEO of Raytheon, which is one of the 82 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:04.079 biggest defense contractors in the country and M Raytheon CEO Greg Hayes said, Um, 83 00:06:04.800 --> 00:06:13.040 there's no way to full supply chains out of China. So Raytheon one 84 00:06:13.079 --> 00:06:15.800 of the biggest defense contractors, high tech defense contractors in the country. Um, 85 00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:18.839 it's going to continue to get most of it's a lot of it stuff 86 00:06:18.839 --> 00:06:21.680 in China. Okay, that's all. That's all I want to say. 87 00:06:23.199 --> 00:06:26.879 Well, he's wrong. It just takes time. It takes time, money, 88 00:06:26.879 --> 00:06:29.639 and will like the rest of it, Like every single bleepity, bleep 89 00:06:29.920 --> 00:06:34.079 fargin problem that posts this country, it takes will get a bit of time, 90 00:06:34.439 --> 00:06:39.240 but most of the desire to do something. Um. But I guess 91 00:06:39.279 --> 00:06:42.000 we're in the era of throwing up our hands and shrugging our shoulders and saying 92 00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:45.199 it's a big job. I can't do that anyway. Charles, are you 93 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:47.160 going to say, well, I don't think you're a racist drop I think 94 00:06:47.279 --> 00:06:53.240 that No, you asked the question. I think that this all depends on 95 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:58.519 the next step. So if the question is are you a racist for not 96 00:06:58.680 --> 00:07:02.279 being shocked that the two people within the US who were passing secrets to the 97 00:07:02.360 --> 00:07:09.839 Chinese were themselves of Chinese origin, however far back that goes, that's not 98 00:07:09.959 --> 00:07:12.839 racist at all. If your next move were to say, bring back the 99 00:07:12.920 --> 00:07:17.399 Chinese Exclusion Act, it wouldn't you didn't say, I think that this is 100 00:07:18.279 --> 00:07:23.800 in a sense of a piece with the plot of Oppenheimer, which I saw 101 00:07:23.839 --> 00:07:31.839 at the weekend. That was terrific. The movie was admirably nuanced, and 102 00:07:33.199 --> 00:07:36.519 I left it thinking, well, of course the US government was suspicious of 103 00:07:36.600 --> 00:07:43.560 Robert Oppenheimer because he had been a communist or communist adjacent. Right now, 104 00:07:43.839 --> 00:07:48.759 if the conclusion from that is therefore we should throw all communists in prison or 105 00:07:48.839 --> 00:07:51.399 McCarthy was right about everything, Well, that's something else, isn't it. 106 00:07:51.439 --> 00:07:55.720 But yes, of course they were worried about people who were communist adjacent or 107 00:07:55.800 --> 00:07:59.680 communists themselves, because do you know who actually spread all of our secrets to 108 00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:03.480 the Russians? People who are communists or communists Jason, So I don't think 109 00:08:03.480 --> 00:08:07.160 it's unreasonable to say, well, if we are going to have a pipeline 110 00:08:07.680 --> 00:08:13.040 from the United States to China, it is more likely to be populated by 111 00:08:13.120 --> 00:08:18.560 people who have Chinese names than it is by say me, well, that 112 00:08:18.639 --> 00:08:24.040 seems reasonable. The trick always it's not to overreact and open interman camps. 113 00:08:24.800 --> 00:08:28.519 Right, He's always right. I mean, it is not racist to be 114 00:08:28.680 --> 00:08:31.639 not surprised. For example, when somebody who had that terrorist incident in far 115 00:08:31.679 --> 00:08:35.480 Going, North Dakota, where a man open fire on the police with automatic 116 00:08:35.519 --> 00:08:41.879 weapons, and it was not completely surprising that he hailed from the Middle East, 117 00:08:43.559 --> 00:08:45.360 and then people are in rehder to were saying, oh, you know, 118 00:08:45.399 --> 00:08:46.720 all the races are going to be yelling about this look. And they 119 00:08:46.720 --> 00:08:50.600 had a picture of the guy, and he didn't look particularly clichede Syrian, 120 00:08:50.679 --> 00:08:56.840 but I'm not sure what a Syrian looks like. Point was not his ethnicity. 121 00:08:56.120 --> 00:09:00.759 The point was his origin, I would say, and the fact that 122 00:09:00.799 --> 00:09:05.200 he came here from Syria in twenty nineteen and perhaps did not take to the 123 00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:09.559 customs and folk ways of Fargo, North Dakota as well as he should have. 124 00:09:09.120 --> 00:09:13.000 I mean, we all make these assumptions, these calculations a million times 125 00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:16.600 a day, and of course everyone's had their implicit bias tests or you're toy. 126 00:09:16.639 --> 00:09:22.440 I mean if if you guys had implicit biased tests and not. Yeah, 127 00:09:22.559 --> 00:09:26.279 okay, Well, the one that I like to say is that we 128 00:09:26.279 --> 00:09:28.600 were showing a whole bunch of pictures and we were asked to make assumptions about 129 00:09:28.600 --> 00:09:31.440 them, and everybody's very nervous. Of course, if we get the wrong 130 00:09:31.440 --> 00:09:33.840 marks, we think we're really going to get something put down in our final 131 00:09:33.879 --> 00:09:37.320 And they show a man who looks like, you know, he looked like 132 00:09:37.399 --> 00:09:41.000 Bob from Twin Peaks, and he had long hair and in a scary face 133 00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:45.759 and a leather jacket, and he was holding in his hand a bar like 134 00:09:45.759 --> 00:09:50.159 like a metal wad. So what assumptions did we make about this? And 135 00:09:50.200 --> 00:09:54.559 I have everyone is, well, he's kind of a scary character and maybe 136 00:09:54.600 --> 00:09:58.639 I'd crossed the street. Well then they zoom out like that and it turns 137 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:03.480 out that the bar that he has in his hand is the handle of a 138 00:10:03.519 --> 00:10:07.759 baby carriage, a prem and there's a there's there's a he's pushing a carriage. 139 00:10:07.840 --> 00:10:11.080 It's like, weren't you stupid to assume what you did based on what 140 00:10:11.120 --> 00:10:13.759 you saw? And I will say, look, I'm not walking around with 141 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:18.759 a toilet paper tube up to my head staring at people through a small little 142 00:10:18.759 --> 00:10:22.440 aperture. I would apprehend the totality of that man at the time and would 143 00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:26.879 be able to tell you that he's no threat whatsoever, because he's gone baby 144 00:10:28.279 --> 00:10:31.840 baby herman from who you know, from the Roger Rabbit that movie is gonna, 145 00:10:31.120 --> 00:10:33.279 you know, pop out with a stoke in his mouth and wake us 146 00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:39.039 all with a machine gun. So much money to have been in that room 147 00:10:39.039 --> 00:10:45.120 with James, I mentioned change. James said, it's such a dumb test, 148 00:10:45.200 --> 00:10:48.320 right. That's the equivalent of saying, James, tell me there is 149 00:10:48.360 --> 00:10:50.080 a man and he wants to kill you, what do you do? And 150 00:10:50.120 --> 00:10:52.840 then you say, I run away and they say, ah, I meant 151 00:10:52.919 --> 00:10:56.279 kill you with kindness to Rachel stupid now like, well, yeah, now 152 00:10:56.320 --> 00:11:01.120 you've changed the entire premise of the question I do. Yeah, I was. 153 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.639 I was unpopular with them from the start because when they asked me what 154 00:11:05.679 --> 00:11:09.720 my ethnicity was, how I identified I said North to Codon because I think 155 00:11:09.759 --> 00:11:13.759 that's much more of a guide than anything else that I could possibly say. 156 00:11:13.000 --> 00:11:16.159 Then we were given legos and we were asked to make something out of the 157 00:11:16.240 --> 00:11:20.600 legos right, and there was red, blue, yellow, white. And 158 00:11:20.639 --> 00:11:24.360 so what I did, because I have preference for Mondreon like compositions, I 159 00:11:24.480 --> 00:11:30.399 built something that was that segregated the individual colors in the structure to make it 160 00:11:30.480 --> 00:11:33.440 esthetically balanced. And I had to explain to the person when I said this, 161 00:11:33.000 --> 00:11:37.200 do not take this as a metaphor from my desire to wall off ethnicities 162 00:11:37.240 --> 00:11:41.919 into separate groups or physical localities in real life. I just think it's more 163 00:11:41.960 --> 00:11:45.759 play. I mean, I felt really, really nervous about the fact that 164 00:11:45.799 --> 00:11:50.840 I have expressing an esthetic pleasure with Legos and that somehow this spoke something about 165 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:52.600 me. It was all just ridiculous, that the whole notion of it. 166 00:11:52.639 --> 00:11:54.559 And I'm sure we're gonna have to go through it again if my boss and 167 00:11:54.600 --> 00:12:00.159 get ahold of this anyway. So Rob, there you have it. Um, 168 00:12:00.320 --> 00:12:03.120 I guess we give you a pass, but you know we would modified 169 00:12:03.159 --> 00:12:09.799 limited hangout pass. I guess. I was just thinking that phrase as I 170 00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:13.519 was walking back from the drug store with a sack of meat balls. Honest 171 00:12:13.559 --> 00:12:16.600 to god, limited modified hangout. I was thinking that that's what they're doing 172 00:12:16.600 --> 00:12:20.799 with the Biden and the heat. Well, of course, of course he 173 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:24.600 met with a son about business. You know, of course his son made 174 00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:28.279 money from which was not what we heard before. How are you guys taking 175 00:12:28.320 --> 00:12:31.799 these sort of shifting narratives? I mean, the four pinocchios was granted to 176 00:12:31.840 --> 00:12:35.759 Biden by the Washington Post just a little bit ago, which is everyone saying 177 00:12:35.759 --> 00:12:39.799 the signs that the narrative is cracking, walls are closing in. Not sure 178 00:12:39.799 --> 00:12:43.039 about that. But what do you think is the next step here? What 179 00:12:43.039 --> 00:12:46.919 are we looking for in him to come well? I mean we should say 180 00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:50.879 that we're you know, our guest today will be Andy McCarthy, so we'll 181 00:12:50.879 --> 00:12:54.440 be talking about the really big story that's with him, So we're not really 182 00:12:54.960 --> 00:13:03.919 we're avoiding that one. Um. Yeah, look, I uh, there's 183 00:13:03.960 --> 00:13:09.759 so many weird things about the Biden family and Biden presidency. UM. And 184 00:13:09.840 --> 00:13:13.159 I just don't understand. Um, maybe they maybe they've got some genius plan. 185 00:13:13.759 --> 00:13:20.399 I don't understand why with the seventh granddaughter they didn't make it a big 186 00:13:20.440 --> 00:13:24.000 deal. I don't know why they're embarrassed by this. This seems like it'ld 187 00:13:24.000 --> 00:13:30.519 be a heart you know, warming moment. I don't understand them. The 188 00:13:30.639 --> 00:13:35.039 strange protection of Hunter Biden. Um, I don't really get it. Like 189 00:13:35.440 --> 00:13:39.519 there's a million things they could do to sort of neutralize that and to actually, 190 00:13:39.559 --> 00:13:43.799 you know, put it in context if people feel a little bit sympathetic 191 00:13:43.840 --> 00:13:46.480 to this guy, I mean, not to Hunter Biden, but to his 192 00:13:46.600 --> 00:13:56.159 dad. Um the weird uh sort of Jersey City mafia style kind of not 193 00:13:56.519 --> 00:14:00.320 Tony Soprano, but like, you know what when the Sopranos when they were 194 00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:03.840 all involved in like the little stuff that got ugly and nasty. But it's 195 00:14:03.879 --> 00:14:07.080 like over like, that's what this feels like. And I don't I don't 196 00:14:07.200 --> 00:14:13.399 understand how. I mean, I'm always surprised at the incompetence of the Biden 197 00:14:13.480 --> 00:14:18.240 political team. It just always surprises me because there is there is so much 198 00:14:18.279 --> 00:14:22.480 there that they need to do, and there's so much work to do, 199 00:14:22.159 --> 00:14:26.799 and there's it's such a you know, a target rich environment, and their 200 00:14:26.039 --> 00:14:31.559 political operation is so incredibly amateurish and incompetent. It makes me think that, 201 00:14:33.399 --> 00:14:37.679 you know, honestly, it makes me think that that's a lot worse than 202 00:14:37.720 --> 00:14:46.720 we know. That this influence peddling is a lot worse than even our fevered 203 00:14:46.799 --> 00:14:56.279 anti Biden imaginations can conjure. I'm not going to make the same mistake as 204 00:14:56.320 --> 00:15:01.399 I decried with the Russia Gate nonsense and get ahead of myself, or make 205 00:15:01.879 --> 00:15:07.120 accusations or insinuations that aren't supported by the evidence we have. But I will 206 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:13.519 say, Okay, I will, but I will say that what we currently 207 00:15:13.799 --> 00:15:22.159 know about Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's involvement with his business is substantially worse than 208 00:15:22.200 --> 00:15:31.360 anything we knew about Donald Trump and the Russia Gate allegations. Substantially worse. 209 00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:39.279 And yet I won't say inexplicably because we all know why. Infuriatingly it's being 210 00:15:39.279 --> 00:15:46.600 ignored. I am so tired of reading nothing about it. If that makes 211 00:15:46.639 --> 00:15:52.799 sense. How many times did I sit on television in twenty seventeen, twenty 212 00:15:52.840 --> 00:15:58.320 eighteen, with everyone around me on CNN or MSNBC or what you will, 213 00:15:58.600 --> 00:16:04.159 hyper ventilating and thinking, you know, I'm not going to sit here and 214 00:16:04.200 --> 00:16:07.879 say that sounds like a load of old crap, because if I do that, 215 00:16:08.000 --> 00:16:15.399 I will lose my career. It will be played every time I say 216 00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:18.879 anything if I turn out to be wrong or I didn't do it. But 217 00:16:18.960 --> 00:16:22.279 I sat thinking, I think that's unlikely, and I said I don't know. 218 00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:25.879 I would wait to see the evidence. Of course, if it were 219 00:16:25.879 --> 00:16:27.039 true, it would be very serious. But I don't think we have any 220 00:16:27.080 --> 00:16:34.720 evidence. This is America. We know so much more that is a problem 221 00:16:34.799 --> 00:16:38.879 in this case, and yet it seems to me no one is deliberately, 222 00:16:40.639 --> 00:16:45.159 no one in a position of power in the press is doing anything about it. 223 00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:48.440 And it does matter because people think, oh, well, why doesn't 224 00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:52.840 the right just build you know, these great investigative reporting teams. I think 225 00:16:52.840 --> 00:16:55.759 it's a long term plan that is actually correct. I think the right has 226 00:16:55.799 --> 00:17:00.200 absolutely dropped the ball on this. But you can't do it overnight. You 227 00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:04.559 know, the expertise at the Post and the New York Times and ProPublica announced 228 00:17:04.559 --> 00:17:08.559 where is necessary for this one and can't be matched except maybe by the House 229 00:17:08.599 --> 00:17:14.240 of Representatives. You're wrong that the press isn't doing anything, isn't saying anything. 230 00:17:15.240 --> 00:17:18.920 One hour ago, Hunter Biden businesses socially testified he had it's no knowledge 231 00:17:18.920 --> 00:17:23.119 of wrong doing by Joe Biden, you would say today, Devin Archer testifies 232 00:17:23.160 --> 00:17:29.480 Joe Biden never talked business when put on the phone Washington Post, Devin Archer 233 00:17:29.519 --> 00:17:37.279 said the opposite of what Republicans claimed. So there it is except I'm sort 234 00:17:37.319 --> 00:17:41.440 of I'm reading a lot of these things. I'm reading some notes about barisma 235 00:17:41.400 --> 00:17:48.599 and the rest of it, and it seems unlikely how that this concatenation of 236 00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:56.599 calls and appointments and money and prosecutorial firing and the rest of it does not 237 00:17:57.000 --> 00:18:03.240 smell like loot fisk that's been left in the broiling sun for three hours. 238 00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.119 A couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, there was a story 239 00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:11.319 with three buyelines on it in the Washington Post about a Christmas party that Clarence 240 00:18:11.359 --> 00:18:15.640 Thomas had held, which many of his clerks attended, and then paid him 241 00:18:15.680 --> 00:18:22.960 twenty dollars via Venmo for the chicken fingers and hamburgers and hot dogs and pepsi. 242 00:18:22.759 --> 00:18:26.519 And there were people on Twitter saying, it's very clear what's happened here. 243 00:18:26.640 --> 00:18:30.839 These twenty dollars. Twenty dollars, These twenty dollars Venmo payments are bribes. 244 00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.759 They're a vig. They're a vig. We all know how this works, 245 00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:37.720 We've seen the movies. Twenty dollars And then people would say, well, 246 00:18:37.720 --> 00:18:40.799 could you talk me through how the mechanism works. It doesn't matter. 247 00:18:41.039 --> 00:18:44.559 Once the money had been paid, Thomas knew what to do, all right. 248 00:18:45.039 --> 00:18:48.640 Now, the same people are saying, Joe Biden got on the phone 249 00:18:49.000 --> 00:18:53.640 and talked to Hunter Biden's business associates, but we can't draw anything from that. 250 00:18:55.160 --> 00:18:59.359 Come on, right, right, Yeah, Clarence Thomas goes on a 251 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:04.559 vacation paid for by I happen to know of a lovely, lovely man actually 252 00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:14.559 and his friend and a legitimate friend. And it's clear indication of a bribery. 253 00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:19.319 Joe Biden gets on the phone with Hunter Biden's clients, and it doesn't 254 00:19:19.319 --> 00:19:26.839 mean anything. It's not bribery. Consider it an investment. Use those words. 255 00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.079 Government invests people to bribe, They invest I mean. But you know, 256 00:19:30.400 --> 00:19:33.440 all of us like to invest in things right different the market essentials, 257 00:19:33.799 --> 00:19:37.599 ways that our life will get better down the road. But there's an investment 258 00:19:37.680 --> 00:19:42.039 you can make absolutely today that will make your life so much better that the 259 00:19:42.359 --> 00:19:45.480 moment the thing arrives. Am I talking about? What? Investing in high 260 00:19:45.519 --> 00:19:48.759 quality shoes so you walk around better, my high quality jackets, high quality 261 00:19:48.799 --> 00:19:52.759 cookwares that you cook better. That's all great, that's that's just a fine. 262 00:19:52.759 --> 00:19:55.079 But you know what, how about something you use for eight hours at 263 00:19:55.079 --> 00:19:59.400 a stretch those would be sheets. The sheets you use make a huge different 264 00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:00.839 in your quality of life, and you can start investing in your best sleep 265 00:20:00.839 --> 00:20:04.440 today. With Bowl and Branch, they make the only sheets. They get 266 00:20:04.480 --> 00:20:08.599 softer with every wash, buttery breathable on night one, and they keep getting 267 00:20:08.640 --> 00:20:12.119 softer and softer for years to come. Bold and Branch signature him to sheets 268 00:20:12.160 --> 00:20:15.079 are the best sellers for a reason. 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And now something legal happened. 287 00:21:26.000 --> 00:21:30.079 We go to our legal guy. I was glad to see him too, 288 00:21:30.440 --> 00:21:33.839 Andy McCarty, senior fellow at the National Review Institute, contributing editor there 289 00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:38.039 as well and as well at Fox News, served as a assistant I'm sorry, 290 00:21:38.119 --> 00:21:44.240 and assistant US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. And Andy, 291 00:21:44.279 --> 00:21:48.039 how you doing? Good to see you. Indictment number TWI. This 292 00:21:48.119 --> 00:21:51.799 is going to be the one right this, So walls are closing in. 293 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.920 They're gonna sink the guy. They got him this time? Or do they 294 00:21:56.640 --> 00:22:00.880 walk us through what's being accused and what do you make of the charges, 295 00:22:00.720 --> 00:22:04.119 Well, I don't think they were strong if they got him, James, 296 00:22:04.319 --> 00:22:07.960 I think they got him on the moralago thing when they got him on this 297 00:22:08.079 --> 00:22:17.680 thing. So I think the charges here are weak, and the weakness isn't 298 00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:22.839 apparent because the indictment, I think, is teaming with a lot of deceptive 299 00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:29.240 behavior. Right, So there's a lot of evidence which would paint Trump in 300 00:22:29.319 --> 00:22:37.319 a very bad light and strongly suggested that everything he did was deceptive. But 301 00:22:38.079 --> 00:22:41.759 see, the thing is, I think there's been like lavish coverage about his 302 00:22:41.880 --> 00:22:45.480 state of mind over the last few days, like what did he really know? 303 00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:49.720 Could you prove his state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt? And really, 304 00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.759 you know, he's Bill Barr's out there, for example, saying, 305 00:22:53.759 --> 00:22:56.720 you know, he absolutely knew he was lying. I told them that there 306 00:22:56.759 --> 00:23:02.880 was no election for it. So that's all very interesting about Trump's state of 307 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:06.160 mind. But the thing is, in a criminal case, you don't get 308 00:23:06.240 --> 00:23:11.920 to the guy's state of mind unless you can prove that he committed a crime, 309 00:23:11.480 --> 00:23:15.920 you know, putting the putting, whether he did it intentionally and knowledgeably, 310 00:23:15.960 --> 00:23:19.000 and all that stuff to decide whether the acts that they've accused him of 311 00:23:19.440 --> 00:23:26.480 make out a violation of law. And I think the problem that Smith has 312 00:23:26.680 --> 00:23:34.519 is that what he has charged either are not actually crimes and I'm speaking there 313 00:23:34.519 --> 00:23:41.400 about the fraud count and maybe the obstruction count or are crimes, but they 314 00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:48.480 don't fit this particular fact pattern. And that's obscured by the factual recitation in 315 00:23:48.519 --> 00:23:52.400 the indictment, which is, you know, obviously it's it's immense and it's 316 00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:59.200 it's it paints Trump in a very unflattering LFE. But I don't think that 317 00:23:59.359 --> 00:24:03.839 the fraud account, and this is a this is a favorite of creative prosecutors, 318 00:24:03.880 --> 00:24:11.079 this charge of conspiracy to defraud the United States, I don't think that 319 00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:15.880 the Supreme Court would allow it if the case gets to the Supreme Court to 320 00:24:17.000 --> 00:24:23.119 be applied to political corruption. They've been very clear that fraud in the United 321 00:24:23.160 --> 00:24:30.160 States and federal law is a deceptive scheme to build somebody out of money or 322 00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:37.240 tangible property. They said that in two cases involving Cuomo's Andrew Cuomo's pronies chim 323 00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:41.599 and Ellie and Percoco in the middle of May, which is why I said 324 00:24:41.640 --> 00:24:45.799 at the time, I thought that that would be sort of a shot across 325 00:24:45.839 --> 00:24:52.960 the bow that might make might make Jacksmith fold his tent on the election interference 326 00:24:52.960 --> 00:25:00.319 stuff. He's going with an interpretation of the defraud the United States Statute that 327 00:25:00.359 --> 00:25:06.799 the Justice Department likes. It has always liked because it enables prosecutors essentially to 328 00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:12.720 criminalize things that Congress has never enacted in a criminal statute. But the court 329 00:25:12.759 --> 00:25:17.160 has pretty much warned the government not to do this sort of thing, and 330 00:25:17.240 --> 00:25:22.440 he's indicted into the teeth of that jurisprudence, So we'll see how that goes. 331 00:25:25.640 --> 00:25:30.279 The obstruction counts, I think are problematic because everybody is allowed to try 332 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:34.400 to influence Congress, including the president. The question always when you try to 333 00:25:34.440 --> 00:25:41.039 influence a tribunal is have you done it corruptly? And corruption is a term 334 00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:48.039 in federal law that, much like fraud, is one that has been extended 335 00:25:48.079 --> 00:25:55.119 in a very elastic way to cover a lot of conduct that could be constitutionally 336 00:25:55.160 --> 00:26:00.319 protected conduct. So there's always a dispute about what do you have to do 337 00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:06.519 to make out corruption and is it so vague that you should just get rid 338 00:26:06.559 --> 00:26:11.079 of the law entire home. And I think he's going to run into that 339 00:26:11.160 --> 00:26:15.920 problem because a lot of what Trump did is constitutionally protected activity. And you 340 00:26:15.039 --> 00:26:19.279 have some judges in the DC Circuit who've taken the position that unless you do 341 00:26:19.400 --> 00:26:29.480 something that is traditional criminal corrupt behavior like witness intimidation or document evidence manipulation, 342 00:26:30.119 --> 00:26:37.440 that doesn't meet corruption. And the theme here I should I should stress is 343 00:26:37.440 --> 00:26:41.799 that as as just as Scolia among others said, I think Scalia said it 344 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:49.640 best. It's a bedrock principle of the criminal law that criminal statutes have to 345 00:26:49.680 --> 00:26:57.400 be sufficiently clear that a person of ordinary intelligence can understand what the law prohibits. 346 00:26:57.440 --> 00:27:03.519 So if you get these loose concepts in statutes like fraud and corruption, 347 00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:11.359 there's a divide in the Court had to handle that. Some judges think you 348 00:27:11.359 --> 00:27:17.759 should just invalidate those statutes in toto because their presence on the books chills people 349 00:27:17.839 --> 00:27:23.279 from acting in manners that are protected by the constitution. Other judges prefer what 350 00:27:23.319 --> 00:27:30.680 they call limiting construction. So, for example, Congress try to enact a 351 00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:38.119 fraud statute that would extend fraud to this concept of honest services fraud, the 352 00:27:38.480 --> 00:27:45.799 idea that you have deprived people of their right to honest services. The Supreme 353 00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:52.119 Court ended up saying that that is too vague, it's not clear where that 354 00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:56.319 obligation comes from, who it applies to, etc. So they, instead 355 00:27:56.359 --> 00:28:00.119 of throwing the statute out, which Scalia and a couple of other job this 356 00:28:00.279 --> 00:28:03.720 is on the court wanted to do. What they did instead was do what 357 00:28:03.759 --> 00:28:08.839 they call limiting construction. So now that statute only applies to bribery and kickbacks, 358 00:28:10.480 --> 00:28:12.960 so fraud in the United States, as far as I understand, it 359 00:28:14.039 --> 00:28:25.279 is applicable only to financial crimes, either stealing money or tangible property or bribery 360 00:28:25.279 --> 00:28:30.039 and kickbacks. But it doesn't apply to As they've said, it's not a 361 00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:34.720 vehicle by which prosecutors are supposed to impose somebody's idea of what good government looks 362 00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:41.400 like. And if Congress wants to do that, they've said Congress can enact 363 00:28:41.400 --> 00:28:44.839 a statute like that as long as they are clear about it and they don't 364 00:28:44.880 --> 00:28:48.839 do it in a vague manner. But it's not licensed for prosecutors to sort 365 00:28:48.839 --> 00:28:56.039 of freelance as as lawmakers in the penal law. So I think he's going 366 00:28:56.079 --> 00:28:59.119 to have big problems with those counts. And I'll just say quickly, the 367 00:28:59.200 --> 00:29:02.640 last count goes. There's been a lot of talk about this already. The 368 00:29:02.720 --> 00:29:07.240 last count is a civil rights count, and it invokes a statute that was 369 00:29:07.359 --> 00:29:14.599 enacted in the post Civil War period which was designed to combat the use of 370 00:29:14.680 --> 00:29:22.559 force, specifically by the ku Klux Klan preventing violently preventing black voters from exercising 371 00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:27.480 their right to vote. And that's the statute that he's trying to bring to 372 00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:33.039 bear in this situation. He's got one Supreme Court case from the sixties that 373 00:29:33.079 --> 00:29:36.880 he's relying on for this, which is a ballot box stuff in case, 374 00:29:37.599 --> 00:29:41.960 also removed from the facts of this case. So I think the modern textualist 375 00:29:41.000 --> 00:29:47.440 Supreme Court would not even approve what the Court did in the sixties applying that 376 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:51.480 statute to ballot stuffing. But I don't think they have to invalidate it in 377 00:29:51.559 --> 00:29:55.359 order to just say, look, this doesn't apply here, because even if 378 00:29:55.359 --> 00:30:04.279 the ballot stuffing rationale is color that is directed at the act of voting, 379 00:30:04.599 --> 00:30:11.799 whereas what is involved in the case with Trump is after the fact challenges to 380 00:30:11.839 --> 00:30:15.880 the voting, which would have the effect of canceling out votes. But it's 381 00:30:15.920 --> 00:30:18.519 not the same thing as ballot box stuffing. So I just think legally, 382 00:30:18.599 --> 00:30:25.359 all four counts are they have big trouble with them? So and it just 383 00:30:26.319 --> 00:30:30.240 so we're clear here, because I've seen people conflating these two questions in both 384 00:30:30.559 --> 00:30:36.640 directions, trying to hang one on the other. What we are discussing here 385 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:42.519 is whether or not what Trump did was a crime. But we're not discussing 386 00:30:42.519 --> 00:30:48.079 whether or not he did it. What Trump did was to try to rewrite 387 00:30:48.279 --> 00:30:57.039 the Electoral count Act and the Twelfth Amendment to empower Vice President Pence to overturn 388 00:30:57.079 --> 00:31:03.799 the results of the election and make president once again. That's not really at 389 00:31:03.839 --> 00:31:12.000 stake. What is being debated here is whether there are statutes that support this 390 00:31:12.119 --> 00:31:25.160 indictment and or whether this is an intrinsically political matter. But the facts of 391 00:31:25.240 --> 00:31:32.680 the case are established. I asked this because I've seen people say, essentially, 392 00:31:33.720 --> 00:31:37.400 well, we know what Trump did was terrible. I agree, and 393 00:31:37.599 --> 00:31:42.319 we know January sixth happened. I agree therefore he should be charged with a 394 00:31:42.319 --> 00:31:45.799 crime, which is a non secretary. But I've also seen people saying, 395 00:31:47.200 --> 00:31:51.599 we're implying if this isn't a crime, if this is intrinsically political, if 396 00:31:51.599 --> 00:31:56.680 there's no statutory basis for it, if the definition of fraud has indeed been 397 00:31:56.759 --> 00:32:01.799 narrowed by the Supreme Court such that this your fools outside of the law. 398 00:32:02.279 --> 00:32:07.480 Therefore, Trump didn't do anything wrong. That's not correct, right, right, 399 00:32:07.480 --> 00:32:10.160 It would mean he didn't do anything that was prohibited by the criminal law. 400 00:32:10.200 --> 00:32:14.240 But there are a lot of things that are not prohibited by the criminal 401 00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.079 law that are wrong. And I think, Charlie, though, you also 402 00:32:16.160 --> 00:32:22.200 hit on something which is a point I've been trying to make about the political 403 00:32:22.480 --> 00:32:27.880 nature of this. I think what's going on here in part is that they 404 00:32:27.880 --> 00:32:34.079 are trying to use the criminal justice process as a proxy for the failure of 405 00:32:34.119 --> 00:32:38.440 the political process to hold Trump accountable. All the things that Charlie just laid 406 00:32:38.440 --> 00:32:45.000 out are indisputable he did these things. There's no doubt that they're high crimes 407 00:32:45.000 --> 00:32:50.480 and misdemeanors. But you don't have to have a criminal offense in order to 408 00:32:50.480 --> 00:32:53.480 have high crimes and misdemeanors. What Hamilton, for example, in the Federalist 409 00:32:53.519 --> 00:33:01.599 Papers talks about is high crimes or impeachable offenses as what he called political offenses, 410 00:33:02.039 --> 00:33:07.759 by which he meant profound abuses of the political power that's allotted in the 411 00:33:07.839 --> 00:33:15.160 Constitution. And you know the fact that Smith does not have a crime that 412 00:33:15.200 --> 00:33:21.640 he can easily apply to Trump's activity. I think he is a feature of 413 00:33:21.680 --> 00:33:24.640 the system, not a bug. I don't think this is something people forgot, 414 00:33:24.880 --> 00:33:30.119 like like Congress just you know, in some oversight, they in almost 415 00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:35.599 the order of a millennium, they haven't enacted criminal laws that would put the 416 00:33:35.640 --> 00:33:40.880 Justice Department in the FBI monitoring elections. I think that's intentional. And the 417 00:33:40.920 --> 00:33:46.599 way the system is designed, presidential abuses a power are supposed to be checked 418 00:33:46.640 --> 00:33:52.880 by Congress, not by the criminal law. So I think that's the main 419 00:33:52.000 --> 00:33:55.680 problem that that Smith has. Can I ask a very by follow up on 420 00:33:55.759 --> 00:34:01.720 that exact point. I read through the indictment, and I read the debate 421 00:34:01.880 --> 00:34:07.639 between the editors at National Review and Noah Rothman and you and Noah Rothman and 422 00:34:07.719 --> 00:34:13.760 some of the criticisms of National Reviews editorial, and it struck me. And 423 00:34:13.840 --> 00:34:20.000 correct me if I'm wrong that a creative prosecutor under this theory, even with 424 00:34:20.119 --> 00:34:24.840 the narrowed conception of fraud, could bring a case against an out of office 425 00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:32.679 Joe Biden for his student loan order, because you could argue ass here, 426 00:34:32.960 --> 00:34:37.800 and again, Andy, correct me if this is wrong, that Joe Biden 427 00:34:37.880 --> 00:34:43.559 tried to defraud the treasury. He tried to gain a pecuniary advantage from the 428 00:34:43.639 --> 00:34:47.760 Treasury by misrepresenting a law. Now, usually you would say, well, 429 00:34:47.760 --> 00:34:52.039 that's a political question, but I suppose the argument against this indictment is, 430 00:34:52.079 --> 00:34:55.599 well, so is this Is that a fair analogy? Yeah, I think 431 00:34:55.639 --> 00:35:00.519 that's right. The way they would put it would be to say that he 432 00:35:00.039 --> 00:35:07.119 engaged in a deceptive scheme that undermined an essential function of government, to wit 433 00:35:07.400 --> 00:35:14.880 Congress's ability to budget. And you can see how dangerous this is. I 434 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:20.519 mean, basically. In fact, during the Muller investigation, Andrew Weiseman, 435 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:27.559 I'm you know, this line of reasoning is very popular with progressives in the 436 00:35:27.639 --> 00:35:32.599 Justice Department, who liked to use the Statute in order to impose their own 437 00:35:32.719 --> 00:35:36.960 visions of good government, just like, for example, they used the Civil 438 00:35:37.039 --> 00:35:43.719 Rights Statute to impose their own vision of what good policing is. And in 439 00:35:43.320 --> 00:35:51.119 the Muller investigation, they charged Paul Manifford with defrauding the United States, and 440 00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:57.960 the scheme was that by failing to register as a foreign agent, he undermined 441 00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:02.519 the ability of the government to have a comprehensive accurate registry of foreign agents. 442 00:36:02.800 --> 00:36:07.280 Now, if you wanted to have a statute like that, I mean, 443 00:36:07.320 --> 00:36:09.920 we do have a Foreign Agent Registration Act, but if you wanted to turn 444 00:36:09.920 --> 00:36:14.920 it into a conspiracy, you could. You could enact a conspiracy. That 445 00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:17.360 says, okay, So, since we're coming up with an analogies, here's 446 00:36:17.360 --> 00:36:23.400 the one I came up with yesterday. Barack Obama tells me told me a 447 00:36:23.400 --> 00:36:27.519 bunch of years ago, if I like my doctor, I can keep my 448 00:36:27.599 --> 00:36:31.199 doctor. At the time, he said that he knew that was not absolutely 449 00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:36.760 that was not possible under the Affordable Care Act. They acknowledged later that it 450 00:36:36.800 --> 00:36:39.519 was kind of a lie to get the thing passed, which to basically nationalize 451 00:36:39.519 --> 00:36:45.360 the gigantic part of the federal budget and the federal government entitled programs. Was 452 00:36:45.400 --> 00:36:52.639 he defrauding the government the people of America? Well, I guess it depends 453 00:36:52.639 --> 00:36:58.119 on who we said it to. Wow, so well right, But Trump 454 00:36:58.199 --> 00:37:01.360 is in charge. Even Smith has not gone so far as to say that 455 00:37:01.559 --> 00:37:07.880 lying to the public is a crime. I think he's close, very close 456 00:37:07.920 --> 00:37:12.760 to it. So, you know what, So, so just clarified this 457 00:37:12.800 --> 00:37:15.280 stuff for me, because I know you must be really tired of doing this, 458 00:37:15.280 --> 00:37:19.199 because basically, what you do when these things happen is you have to 459 00:37:19.239 --> 00:37:23.400 go and painstakingly explain to people what it really means. So there's a huge 460 00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:27.400 amount of pushback on this, which is basically and I think that will be 461 00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:30.199 the part of the Trump defense. It's like, hey, hey, he 462 00:37:30.239 --> 00:37:34.280 can say anything he wants First Amendment, right, And then the second part 463 00:37:34.400 --> 00:37:38.039 is what you said isn't really relevant. Which was interesting to me was that, 464 00:37:39.000 --> 00:37:42.760 well, it didn't matter. He knew that what he was saying was 465 00:37:42.800 --> 00:37:45.119 false, and he was lying so that he could remain in the White House. 466 00:37:45.519 --> 00:37:51.960 So his mental state in at least in the indictment is actually part of 467 00:37:51.960 --> 00:37:54.360 the indictment. When I read it, his mental state was important. Jack 468 00:37:54.360 --> 00:38:00.199 Smith thinks it's important, but you're telling me it's not. Well, let 469 00:38:00.280 --> 00:38:04.480 me try to put this in two different buckets because it raises two different concerns, 470 00:38:04.599 --> 00:38:07.320 right, So, well that's me. You know, I'm very complex. 471 00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:13.800 I'm a complex thinker. Yes, and you require so much new ucell. 472 00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:20.280 Yeah you gotta worm, yeah yeah. So um, you know I 473 00:38:20.440 --> 00:38:24.760 used to cases and if the you know, if the dons in the in 474 00:38:24.800 --> 00:38:30.239 the clubhouse with a bunch of the guys and they're deciding, like what are 475 00:38:30.239 --> 00:38:34.960 we doing tomorrow, and he says, I want that guy whacked. I 476 00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:40.039 never once in all the years I did mafia cases heard of First Amendment defense. 477 00:38:43.079 --> 00:38:49.199 I was sizing right different. So the way that we usually prove conspiracy 478 00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:53.960 and the way that we prove criminal conduct is by speech as much as anything 479 00:38:53.960 --> 00:38:59.199 else, because it conveys not only it not only results in action, it 480 00:38:59.280 --> 00:39:06.960 also conveys is what people's intent was when they acted. So it's been a 481 00:39:07.159 --> 00:39:14.679 it's long been a doctrine of law that there is no free speech prohibition on 482 00:39:14.760 --> 00:39:20.320 the use of words as evidence. What the criminal law prohibits is, or 483 00:39:20.360 --> 00:39:29.280 what the constitution prohibits is in almost every context making statements criminal per se, 484 00:39:29.360 --> 00:39:32.719 like just for the fact that you say them, the fact that you say 485 00:39:32.800 --> 00:39:38.719 words making that act of a crime. But to the extent that the acts 486 00:39:38.800 --> 00:39:46.280 either trigger action or they convey somebody's intent, they are admissible as evidence if 487 00:39:46.360 --> 00:39:50.960 you can show that they are evidence of a crime. So, for example, 488 00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:55.559 I heard Bill bare on CNN say, try to make this point, 489 00:39:58.320 --> 00:40:02.199 but he makes it in further so, the idea that the statute as it's 490 00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:07.920 been interpreted by the Fraud Statute as it's been interpreted by the Justice Department to 491 00:40:07.039 --> 00:40:15.280 prohibit deceptive schemes that undermine essential functions of government. What he's saying is that 492 00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:20.719 if you have speech that shows that that that's not a problem. And I 493 00:40:20.760 --> 00:40:22.159 think it is a problem, but I don't think it's a problem because you're 494 00:40:22.239 --> 00:40:24.960 using speech. I think it's a problem because it's not a crime. The 495 00:40:25.039 --> 00:40:37.519 other bucket here is constitutionally speech that gets enhanced constitutional protection, And if you're 496 00:40:37.559 --> 00:40:45.719 talking about words that are used or speech that is used politically or in a 497 00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:52.039 political context, or in an electoral context, there's obviously a higher interest in 498 00:40:52.119 --> 00:41:01.119 the Justice Department and the government generally not using that speech to prove crimes unless 499 00:41:01.159 --> 00:41:06.800 the crimes are very serious. And this more gets into i think, probably 500 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:14.199 prosecutorial discretion than any strict legal prohibition. But the Justice Department ought to stay 501 00:41:14.239 --> 00:41:21.079 out of electoral politics unless you have a very clear crime that's supported by very 502 00:41:21.079 --> 00:41:24.400 convincing evidence. If you don't have that, and you're doing what I think 503 00:41:24.400 --> 00:41:29.440 Smith is doing, which is trying to jimmy something up in a way that 504 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:37.320 puts a damper on people's ability to participate in electoral politics. That's a real 505 00:41:37.440 --> 00:41:40.960 problem as far as constitutional laws. Games, can I ask just one more 506 00:41:42.000 --> 00:41:45.639 question. I know James wants to get into, So just go back to 507 00:41:45.679 --> 00:41:51.079 Muller reports. As you mentioned, the Muller report said kind of what people 508 00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.559 say it said, which is like, he didn't do any of the stuff. 509 00:41:52.559 --> 00:41:58.639 This Russia hopes was a Russia hopes basically right, But there was obstruction 510 00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:02.880 and Mueller said, I can't. I'm not going to process. I'm not 511 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.920 going to indict anyone for obstructions that do I have that right? Well, 512 00:42:07.960 --> 00:42:10.719 it seems like people, yeah, people can argue about Muller report, those 513 00:42:10.760 --> 00:42:14.039 of us who say, well, the Bull report proves that this whole thing 514 00:42:14.119 --> 00:42:15.280 was a put up job, And then people say, oh, no, 515 00:42:15.320 --> 00:42:19.599 it doesn't remember because there was that obstruction. Is that am I he missreading 516 00:42:19.639 --> 00:42:24.280 that he didn't find obstruction. What he said was that he couldn't he wouldn't 517 00:42:24.280 --> 00:42:29.400 answer the question of whether there was obstruction or not. And it was a 518 00:42:29.400 --> 00:42:35.119 complete weasel move by Muller. What he said, which was precious, was 519 00:42:36.519 --> 00:42:44.320 it would be it would be bad to make a finding that he had committed 520 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:50.000 obstruction because under Justice Department guidelines you can indict a sitting president, So it 521 00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:55.119 would be like indicting the president without indicting him and putting the stain on him 522 00:42:55.119 --> 00:42:59.599 in the court of public opinion when he doesn't have a trial venue to go 523 00:43:00.039 --> 00:43:02.480 defend his honor. And by the way, here's two hundred pages of what 524 00:43:02.559 --> 00:43:12.360 he did, yea. So in the end, what happened was the whole 525 00:43:12.360 --> 00:43:19.039 concept of accusing the president of obstruction of justice if he if it's based on 526 00:43:19.119 --> 00:43:23.599 things that the president constitutionally can do, like firing the FBI director, is 527 00:43:23.599 --> 00:43:30.800 a wayward idea. So Barr and Rod Rosenstein, who were the you know 528 00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:35.960 AG and the deputy ag when Muller filed his report, said, you know, 529 00:43:36.000 --> 00:43:37.920 I don't know what we're going to do with this guy because there was 530 00:43:38.199 --> 00:43:43.000 it was already known there was no Russia collusion at the time he got the 531 00:43:43.039 --> 00:43:45.559 case. So the one thing we actually need this guy for is to make 532 00:43:45.639 --> 00:43:49.760 up finding about whether there's obstruction here or not. And he won't do it, 533 00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:53.000 basically abdicated. So they say we're going to look at it, and 534 00:43:53.119 --> 00:43:58.400 basically there's a lot of ikey conduct here. But like if if Trump is 535 00:43:58.400 --> 00:44:00.360 flying off the handle, that he wants mull Or fired, or he wants 536 00:44:00.360 --> 00:44:05.440 Sessions fired, or he wants whatever he wants. That's all stuff he's allowed 537 00:44:05.480 --> 00:44:08.480 to do. And even if some you know, subordinate like a prosecutor, 538 00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:14.800 thinks that he took an action he was allowed constitutionally to take for a corrupt 539 00:44:14.840 --> 00:44:20.320 reason, right, it's not obstruction. So they looked at it and said, 540 00:44:20.400 --> 00:44:23.440 there's no obstruction. Okay. So um, special prosecutor Andy McCarthy, 541 00:44:24.880 --> 00:44:32.920 does he indict Trump for the January sixth stuff? No, not taking Trump 542 00:44:32.920 --> 00:44:37.400 out of it. Rob. If a prosecutor, when I was a boss 543 00:44:37.400 --> 00:44:43.199 in the US Attorney's office, if a prosecutor brought me an indictment that was 544 00:44:43.280 --> 00:44:49.599 based on a theory of fraud that the Supreme Court had slapped down like five 545 00:44:49.719 --> 00:44:53.760 minutes ago, I would tell him that he needed to get caught up on 546 00:44:53.840 --> 00:44:57.559 his reading, you know. Okay, So I think that's what he did. 547 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.599 Here, a special prosecutor, a special process heter Andie McCarthy walks through 548 00:45:00.639 --> 00:45:06.159 the hotel buffet of the you know, the brunch, and all the tables 549 00:45:06.159 --> 00:45:08.559 are out there. He can choose any one of these Trump cases or a 550 00:45:08.559 --> 00:45:15.880 future case he wants to take and to make your be successful with which one 551 00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:19.960 do you like? Which one would Andie McCarthy think this is going to be 552 00:45:20.000 --> 00:45:23.400 easy, I can I could go home at four. I think the Moralogo 553 00:45:23.519 --> 00:45:29.079 case is that case. Now. I don't think it's going to be easy 554 00:45:29.159 --> 00:45:32.639 on the prosecutors who have to do it, only because I've been through a 555 00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:42.000 couple of these Classified Information Procedure Act litigations. It's called SIPA, and these 556 00:45:42.039 --> 00:45:49.239 are they're in their resource intensive prosecutions because they feature what I would call like 557 00:45:49.280 --> 00:45:54.079 a free trial trial of the trial, in other words, before the case 558 00:45:54.159 --> 00:45:57.360 goes to the jury. I've been asked, like a number of times, 559 00:45:57.400 --> 00:46:00.000 do you have to get clearance for the jury in the moral Ago case. 560 00:46:00.559 --> 00:46:07.480 The way it works is you have to litigate prior to trial what classified evidence 561 00:46:07.599 --> 00:46:12.039 is admissible, and then once you figure that out, the court tells the 562 00:46:12.119 --> 00:46:15.719 government you have to declassify this stuff. And if they don't want to declassify 563 00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:22.960 it, they can propose a substitution that puts the defendant in the same position 564 00:46:22.000 --> 00:46:25.760 to make whatever arguments that he would otherwise make to the jury, but withholds 565 00:46:28.360 --> 00:46:30.960 methods and sources and that kind of stuff. That's not always practical to do. 566 00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:38.199 So it's the one weird area of law where the law allows the Attorney 567 00:46:38.239 --> 00:46:45.840 General to order the court not to allow admissible evidence into the case. But 568 00:46:45.039 --> 00:46:52.559 while the government, the executive branch, is the master of classified intelligence, 569 00:46:52.920 --> 00:46:57.760 the court is the master of the legal proceeding. So if the Attorney General 570 00:46:57.920 --> 00:47:01.920 orders the judge don't let this submissible evidence in, the judge can't let the 571 00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:06.800 evidence in. But the judge can dismiss counts in the indictment that the evidence 572 00:47:06.880 --> 00:47:09.480 is relevant to, or dismiss the whole indictment if it comes to that. 573 00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:15.960 So that takes a long time to do. We had a SEPA litigation in 574 00:47:15.960 --> 00:47:17.599 the blind Shake case that you know. I mean, it wasn't the only 575 00:47:17.599 --> 00:47:21.519 thing going on, but we've litigated it for about a year and a half. 576 00:47:21.960 --> 00:47:24.719 I had a real problem getting information out of the CIA. It was 577 00:47:24.760 --> 00:47:30.719 all about like what were we doing in Afghanistan and who was our cut out 578 00:47:30.840 --> 00:47:36.239 and all that stuff. But after eighteen months, I think at the end 579 00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:39.239 of the rainbow, I ended up reading a nine line stipulation to the jury 580 00:47:39.239 --> 00:47:45.079 at the end of the case. So it's a lot of work for what 581 00:47:45.239 --> 00:47:47.679 sometimes is very little at the end of the rainbow, so that part of 582 00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:52.960 it is going to be resource intensive. But the actual case, I don't 583 00:47:52.000 --> 00:47:55.800 think it is a hard case. I mean, I just think it's a 584 00:47:55.800 --> 00:48:00.920 pretty black and white violational law, and it looks to me like the evidence 585 00:48:00.000 --> 00:48:07.519 has gotten stronger over time. Speaking of cutouts and pro Russian members of Ukrainian 586 00:48:07.559 --> 00:48:12.840 oil companies, gas companies before my then revolution, What are we looking at 587 00:48:12.920 --> 00:48:16.920 with Biden here in terms of legal trouble. Can you see the will or 588 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:23.239 the means or the actual case for impeaching him now? Well, I think 589 00:48:23.280 --> 00:48:28.400 there should certainly be an impeach impeachment inquiry. I heard and I agreed with 590 00:48:28.519 --> 00:48:34.199 Charlie before I came on that there's obviously more evidence here to, you know, 591 00:48:34.280 --> 00:48:38.039 just to justify an investigation. I think there's more evidence here than what 592 00:48:38.119 --> 00:48:44.280 they actually impeach Trump for the first time, you know, the actual oracles 593 00:48:44.320 --> 00:48:51.880 of impeachment where if you remember in the Ukraine impeachment they had to call it 594 00:48:52.119 --> 00:48:55.159 I can't remember who was it called abuse of power, But the reason they 595 00:48:55.159 --> 00:48:58.960 had to call it whatever they called it was they couldn't come up with a 596 00:48:58.960 --> 00:49:04.800 penal crime that he it commit so here, Uh, you know, I 597 00:49:04.840 --> 00:49:10.239 think you have a lot more evidence and if the poll Manafoord case is the 598 00:49:10.280 --> 00:49:15.119 model, and that's the closest thing I can think of that that comes to 599 00:49:15.159 --> 00:49:19.000 what you know Hunter and company were up to. You know, they charge 600 00:49:19.039 --> 00:49:23.400 that as a tax case of money laundering, failure to register as a foreign 601 00:49:23.440 --> 00:49:28.679 agent, etc. So it's a Capone stuff, right, Yeah, Well, 602 00:49:28.719 --> 00:49:31.519 it looks like there's a there's evidence of real crimes and when they bring 603 00:49:31.679 --> 00:49:37.800 money laundering in, money laundering has very heavy penalties because it's customarily associated with 604 00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:43.639 organized crime and drug trafficking. So for that reason, it's it's it's got 605 00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.960 very high penalty structure. So these are real crimes. As to Biden, 606 00:49:49.280 --> 00:49:52.840 you know, it looks like the constitution says that you could be impeached not 607 00:49:52.920 --> 00:49:58.159 just for high crimes and misdemeanors, but for treason or bribery. And a 608 00:49:58.199 --> 00:50:00.679 lot of this looks like bribery. So you know, I don't want to 609 00:50:00.679 --> 00:50:05.639 get ahead of what we know, but like, there's there's pretty significant evidence 610 00:50:05.639 --> 00:50:08.639 of bribery here, right. I wish al Capone had taken up painting, 611 00:50:09.960 --> 00:50:14.159 you know, I had become a cubist painter and started selling all of his 612 00:50:14.199 --> 00:50:16.239 work to launder his money to people who wanted to. You know, the 613 00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:20.119 whole dodge that we have with Hunter in his are just imagine all of the 614 00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:23.320 great crime families, all of the dons, all of them taking up painting 615 00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:30.079 as the stylistic wasn't Hitler. Wasn't Hitler a painter, yeah, and a 616 00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:37.679 mediocre one really, but a dog lover. I'm glad was God went all 617 00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:39.639 the way here, you know, to end up maybe on on on a 618 00:50:39.679 --> 00:50:44.360 gaseous note, because I all my questions have been answered here pretty much. 619 00:50:44.800 --> 00:50:49.039 It's interesting that you and Rob and probably Charlie take refuge in this charming thing 620 00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:53.840 that you call constitutionality. I mean, yes, I too share your concern 621 00:50:53.920 --> 00:50:57.519 for the Founding Document and the preservation of it. But we have a new 622 00:50:57.559 --> 00:51:02.360 generation, and we have a party that is increasingly disinclined to believe that free 623 00:51:02.360 --> 00:51:06.119 speeches as absolute as we'd like, as a matter of fact, that it's 624 00:51:06.119 --> 00:51:08.760 the government's job to protect us from misinformation and from hate speech and all the 625 00:51:08.760 --> 00:51:12.920 rest of those things. It seems to me that even if there's no there 626 00:51:13.039 --> 00:51:15.599 there when it comes to criminality on Trump's part, the fact that he said 627 00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:22.280 lies is almost enough now to justify a criminal investigation. I mean when Charles 628 00:51:22.320 --> 00:51:24.960 was saying, rob was talking earlier about the Obama statement about the amount of 629 00:51:25.159 --> 00:51:30.280 your doctor I mean at the time, Yeah, politicians lie. We accept 630 00:51:30.320 --> 00:51:32.000 that it's built in, it's baked in. But now it seems like we're 631 00:51:32.000 --> 00:51:36.679 getting to a point that politically, you have a party that would certainly like 632 00:51:36.840 --> 00:51:42.519 to prosecute somebody simply for lying because the end result is hateful. When Charles 633 00:51:42.519 --> 00:51:45.320 mentioned, could it possibly be that they would go back and get Joe Biden 634 00:51:45.400 --> 00:51:51.360 for unconstitutional lifting of the student debt? Well, no, because that was 635 00:51:51.360 --> 00:51:53.519 a good thing. His heart was in the right place. The objectives were 636 00:51:53.519 --> 00:51:59.159 all truistic. Do you see us actually drifting into a place where this sort 637 00:51:59.199 --> 00:52:06.599 of political intentional desire to criminalize statements is what we're getting to. Yeah, 638 00:52:06.800 --> 00:52:12.480 I think we're there already, And I think the more dangerous thing is the 639 00:52:12.519 --> 00:52:15.079 criminalization of the things that you say that are true. You know, anybody 640 00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:20.800 who says things that are untrue, if you're saying in a legal context or 641 00:52:20.880 --> 00:52:24.599 in a financial context, you're probably on the border of fraud or false. 642 00:52:24.639 --> 00:52:28.719 Statements that are actionable and that sort of thing. So, you know, 643 00:52:28.800 --> 00:52:31.360 false statements is one thing, but what I worry about is true statements. 644 00:52:32.079 --> 00:52:38.840 And I started to complain about this during the Obama administration when they co sponsored, 645 00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:44.960 i think with Turkey in Egypt, a UN resolution that wanted to make 646 00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:49.719 it a crime and impose on every country the obligation to enact in its criminal 647 00:52:49.800 --> 00:52:59.159 code a prohibition against speech that would cause hostility to religion. And it was 648 00:52:59.199 --> 00:53:02.519 clear that there was only one religion obviously that they were were talking about, 649 00:53:04.000 --> 00:53:07.039 but you know, they had a lot of other stuff in there too that 650 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:10.960 you could legitimately criminalize. But if you just parsed it down to that, 651 00:53:12.320 --> 00:53:19.800 you can't criminalize speech that would cause hostility to anything in American law. And 652 00:53:19.920 --> 00:53:25.519 yet the Obama administration tried to sort of end around the Congress by signing onto 653 00:53:25.559 --> 00:53:29.039 that with a bunch of countries and then try to, you know, the 654 00:53:29.079 --> 00:53:31.920 same way they did the Iran deal, not go through the treaty provision, 655 00:53:32.880 --> 00:53:38.960 not go to Congress for enabling legislation. Basically make a deal with a bunch 656 00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:43.880 of countries and then impose it as if you could do it by customary international 657 00:53:43.960 --> 00:53:49.679 law or something along those lines, but they were the left was all in 658 00:53:50.079 --> 00:53:55.039 on this idea that you could criminalize that speech. And what they wanted to 659 00:53:55.079 --> 00:53:59.880 go after were you know, for example, people like the same people who 660 00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:06.880 about purged from their gigs as FBI lecturers because they were teaching people about the 661 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:12.440 history of jihad and and you know what its roots in Islamic doctrine was. 662 00:54:12.679 --> 00:54:17.199 All those things they were saying were true, but they wanted to outlaw them 663 00:54:19.079 --> 00:54:27.719 in the interest of you know, uh, not humiliating Muslim countries or not 664 00:54:27.880 --> 00:54:30.840 upsetting them. And mainly it was like a lot of it was like Heckler's 665 00:54:30.920 --> 00:54:35.960 Veto kind of stuff, where you know, it's now supposed to be your 666 00:54:36.039 --> 00:54:39.599 fault if you say something that makes somebody else violent, rather than their fault 667 00:54:39.800 --> 00:54:45.119 that they're violent irrationally. So I think this has been you know, that 668 00:54:45.159 --> 00:54:47.679 goes back to two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, so we've 669 00:54:47.719 --> 00:54:52.320 been there for a long time. It's just snowballed, and I think it's 670 00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:57.360 become one of those things where it's like, yeah, it's just, um, 671 00:54:58.119 --> 00:55:00.679 what do they say about bankruptcy, Like how did you go bankrupt? 672 00:55:00.760 --> 00:55:01.800 You know, wells over a long time, and then it was all at 673 00:55:01.880 --> 00:55:06.840 once. It seems to be like it seems to be that we're like, 674 00:55:07.320 --> 00:55:09.440 we're there with this stuff. You know, you could see the seeds a 675 00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:15.000 bit going along over the last ten plush years. But I think we're it's 676 00:55:15.039 --> 00:55:17.679 really hitting us over the head. That's that's a Fitzgerald quote. I believe. 677 00:55:19.760 --> 00:55:22.079 How did you go broke gradually? Then suddenly, Charles, you had 678 00:55:22.079 --> 00:55:24.960 something to do? I do. I have a final question that I've been 679 00:55:24.960 --> 00:55:30.559 wondering about for a while, Andy, what is the limit on what you 680 00:55:30.679 --> 00:55:37.079 can be prosecuted for in conversations with a lawyer. So one of the defenses 681 00:55:37.119 --> 00:55:42.280 that I've seen against this indictment is it's not a crime to follow bad legal 682 00:55:42.320 --> 00:55:46.320 advice. So if you go back to the Trump administration, I remember there 683 00:55:46.320 --> 00:55:50.880 were some progressives who wanted to prosecute him for a conversation you have with Don 684 00:55:50.960 --> 00:55:55.760 McGann. Yeah, if I call up my tax lawyer and I say, 685 00:55:57.320 --> 00:56:00.760 what would happen to me if I didn't pay any of my taxes? It's 686 00:56:00.800 --> 00:56:04.760 not a crime for me to ask him that question, obviously, But if 687 00:56:04.800 --> 00:56:07.559 I call up my lawyer and I say, I'm thinking of blowing up my 688 00:56:07.639 --> 00:56:12.119 local Wendy's, Like, you know, would I get prosecuted for that? 689 00:56:12.280 --> 00:56:15.000 And then he says, no, you wouldn't, And then I go and 690 00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:16.440 do it. I can't turn around to the court and say, well, 691 00:56:16.679 --> 00:56:20.400 my lawyer said that I'd get away with it, right, So you know, 692 00:56:20.679 --> 00:56:22.960 I'm just just being prosecuted for taking bad legal advice. Right now, 693 00:56:23.000 --> 00:56:25.960 it was the blowing up the Wendy's that did it. Like, where is 694 00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:31.119 the line here? Because there has to be some room, obviously for people 695 00:56:31.760 --> 00:56:36.679 to say in good faith, Look, I think the interpretation of this law 696 00:56:36.800 --> 00:56:38.679 is wrong. I mean there are lawyers who for fifty years said rov Wade 697 00:56:38.719 --> 00:56:44.880 was wrong. Obviously that's not a crime, But where's the line? Yeah, 698 00:56:45.119 --> 00:56:51.280 just like the sign Feld episode where you know he has sex with the 699 00:56:52.360 --> 00:56:57.920 janitor on the Yeah, was that wrong? Because someone told me if there 700 00:56:57.920 --> 00:57:01.320 are a bit of rule against that. Yeah. But I think I think 701 00:57:01.360 --> 00:57:07.119 the divide you're talking about is the one they always talk about between you know, 702 00:57:07.320 --> 00:57:12.880 malam and say and malam prohibit them laws, Like there are certain things 703 00:57:12.880 --> 00:57:17.480 that are evil innately and you can't get out of the having the mental state 704 00:57:17.519 --> 00:57:21.519 for committing them by like passing it off on. You know, my lawyer 705 00:57:21.519 --> 00:57:22.840 told me it was okay to burder that guy. That's you know, you 706 00:57:22.880 --> 00:57:30.119 can't. But I think the more you have laws and especially regulations that now 707 00:57:30.159 --> 00:57:34.800 have you have some regulations now that have criminal penalties attached to them, and 708 00:57:34.840 --> 00:57:38.480 even if they're not criminal penalties, to heavy duty financial penalties as well. 709 00:57:38.719 --> 00:57:44.800 I think the more that you get into the area of things that we prohibit 710 00:57:44.880 --> 00:57:51.000 because we decide to prohibit them, not that are innately wrong, the better 711 00:57:51.119 --> 00:57:54.320 you have a defense that you relied on the people that were expected to rely 712 00:57:54.440 --> 00:57:59.760 on, like accountants and lawyers, and they steered you wrong. Which ones 713 00:57:59.840 --> 00:58:06.079 there? I think, Well, this is a different issue because I think 714 00:58:07.079 --> 00:58:12.159 with respect to with respect to Trump, what you have in the indictment is 715 00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:16.039 the prosecutor's version of what he was told for the purpose of proving that he 716 00:58:16.159 --> 00:58:20.679 knew what he was doing was wrong. Okay. And I think what Trump 717 00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:23.400 is going to say is, if his lawyer is clever enough, I think 718 00:58:23.400 --> 00:58:30.400 he'll say the indictment itself shows that it's reasonable as far as the government is 719 00:58:30.400 --> 00:58:35.320 concerned, to deduce what somebody must have known by what other people were telling 720 00:58:35.400 --> 00:58:38.679 him. Now let me bring you the hundred witnesses that were telling President Trump 721 00:58:38.719 --> 00:58:44.159 things that the grand jury was never told. And you know, they'll bring 722 00:58:44.159 --> 00:58:45.440 in a lot of witnesses who told them there was a lot of fraud. 723 00:58:45.519 --> 00:58:49.119 And I you know the other thing, Charlie, that I would do if 724 00:58:49.119 --> 00:58:53.039 I were Trump's lawyers, is you know Bill Barr could come in and say, 725 00:58:53.119 --> 00:58:58.280 I told him that was wrong. I told him these three fraud fraudulent 726 00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:00.760 voting things that he was relying on were wrong. They'll bring in a bunch 727 00:59:00.760 --> 00:59:05.920 of people who told them that. You know, in connection with the Pennsylvania 728 00:59:06.000 --> 00:59:09.480 case that the Supreme Court refused to take about whether the court and the election 729 00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:16.119 officials had the authority to change the statutory rules in Pennsylvania, Clarence Thomas wrote 730 00:59:16.119 --> 00:59:22.880 a dissent when the Court wouldn't take that case, in which he said, 731 00:59:22.320 --> 00:59:27.719 you know, look, we need to take these cases before the election, 732 00:59:28.039 --> 00:59:31.039 because if you wait until after the election, the time is too compressed. 733 00:59:31.719 --> 00:59:37.679 There's no reasonable way that you can figure out, investigate and litigate whether there 734 00:59:37.840 --> 00:59:42.559 was fraud. And I think what Trump is going to say is, you 735 00:59:42.599 --> 00:59:46.880 know, whatever everybody's state of information was in December, say early December when 736 00:59:46.880 --> 00:59:51.880 I spoke to bar look at all this evidence we now have that the election 737 00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:53.960 was stolen. And one of the things his lawyers have been talking about is 738 00:59:53.960 --> 00:59:59.679 the fact that for the first time, because Jack Smith has indicted him, 739 00:59:59.760 --> 01:00:02.480 he he now has subpoena power. So for the first time he can go 740 01:00:02.519 --> 01:00:07.679 out and actually use subpoena power to investigate what he says was the election fraud 741 01:00:07.719 --> 01:00:10.679 of twenty twenty. And I think they're going to try to litigate that in 742 01:00:10.679 --> 01:00:15.880 this case. I know, you got to go. I got one. 743 01:00:15.920 --> 01:00:17.679 I just I got to ask you one question of Bautist indictment in general, 744 01:00:17.840 --> 01:00:22.559 right, if you were looking at all the bits and pieces of it, 745 01:00:22.599 --> 01:00:28.079 isn't the certification of the false electors the strongest case that Jack Smith has. 746 01:00:29.559 --> 01:00:31.639 You know, I don't think it's going to be that way, Rob when 747 01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:35.400 it all, when everything comes out. Now, maybe I could be wrong 748 01:00:35.400 --> 01:00:38.760 about this, but I always understood and I've read, you know, some 749 01:00:38.800 --> 01:00:42.960 of the things that have been said by the electors with the so called fake 750 01:00:43.000 --> 01:00:51.079 electors in Georgia, where their point is that they were contingent electors that they 751 01:00:51.119 --> 01:00:55.119 were signing on to be electors in the event that right, And I think 752 01:00:55.159 --> 01:01:00.400 that's what you know. Now there's people in Trump's can who called them, 753 01:01:00.719 --> 01:01:05.000 you know, fake electors or whatever they call them. Yeah, but you 754 01:01:05.000 --> 01:01:08.119 know, I think this is one of these things that actually reads better than 755 01:01:08.119 --> 01:01:12.920 it played at the time. I mean, at the time on January sixth, 756 01:01:12.960 --> 01:01:15.639 nobody thought those slates of electors were going to be a Yeah. It 757 01:01:15.639 --> 01:01:19.199 wasn't like they were. They were kidnapping the electors and showing up with their 758 01:01:19.239 --> 01:01:22.079 big idea. Okay, that was the That's the only thing that was sort 759 01:01:22.119 --> 01:01:23.119 of in my head. And I think that's that makes sense, That makes 760 01:01:23.119 --> 01:01:27.480 sense to me. Yeah, Andy, we hope to have you back when 761 01:01:27.480 --> 01:01:32.880 the Department of Justice indicts Ronda Santis for fraud because his cowboy boot heels give 762 01:01:32.920 --> 01:01:37.760 the appearance of him being taller than he is, and this was a means 763 01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:40.000 of defrauding the electorate going forward. I mean, I'm sure they got there 764 01:01:40.000 --> 01:01:43.920 working up something. Anyway, great to talk to you and hear from you, 765 01:01:43.920 --> 01:01:45.199 and it'll listen to you and get the analysis. As ever, we'll 766 01:01:45.239 --> 01:01:50.559 see you again, and we'll see you on television and scattered about the podcasts 767 01:01:50.559 --> 01:01:52.320 and here and there. Thanks Andy, Thanks guys, thank you a weekend 768 01:01:52.559 --> 01:01:58.519 you too, We shouldn't we won't. Um. We might have one of 769 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:00.519 those weekends where you have somebody over, but you, the listener, could 770 01:02:00.519 --> 01:02:05.599 possibly have somebody over that you don't know yet. What did Will Rogers say 771 01:02:05.599 --> 01:02:07.079 you never met a man he didn't like. Let's the other line, that 772 01:02:07.760 --> 01:02:10.760 stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet, or some sort of you 773 01:02:10.760 --> 01:02:15.079 know. I know they're both nauseating that line, I've never met a man 774 01:02:15.119 --> 01:02:16.440 I didn't like. I think it's one of the most dishonest things I've ever 775 01:02:16.519 --> 01:02:22.960 been a square, just bs. But anyway, now and then you do 776 01:02:22.000 --> 01:02:27.000 meet new people and you realize, wow, it's good to meet new people. 777 01:02:27.679 --> 01:02:30.280 And that's where Rob Long comes in. Not that Rob's going to show 778 01:02:30.320 --> 01:02:32.079 up at your door, but he's gonna tell you how you can have people 779 01:02:32.079 --> 01:02:35.800 show up at your or go down well, you know, James, of 780 01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:39.199 course, you know Ricochet is online club. You could join Ricochet. You 781 01:02:39.199 --> 01:02:42.840 can mix it up in the comments, mix it up on the member feet 782 01:02:42.840 --> 01:02:45.199 and in the member's lodge, right, but you can also do we alls 783 01:02:45.199 --> 01:02:50.800 do meetups irl. Meetups in real life is the people say um and the 784 01:02:50.880 --> 01:02:53.960 summer now is coming to a close. Our last summer meetup is in Cookville, 785 01:02:53.960 --> 01:02:58.880 Tennessee Labor Day weekends. That's September one through four in Cookeville, Tennessee. 786 01:02:58.960 --> 01:03:00.880 So if you're in the area and you want something to do, the 787 01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:04.360 bunch of Ricochet members are getting together in Cookville. That is always a good 788 01:03:04.400 --> 01:03:07.960 time. I highly recommend the meetups if you would like to. If you're 789 01:03:07.960 --> 01:03:09.239 a member, I want to go, go. If you're not a member 790 01:03:09.239 --> 01:03:13.559 and you want to go join Ricochet and then go. If you are a 791 01:03:13.559 --> 01:03:15.679 member or non member and you're like, yeah, I don't know, Cookdills 792 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:17.199 far away or Labor Day we can have booked and you want to set something 793 01:03:17.280 --> 01:03:20.880 up for the autumn, here's what you do. You go to ricochet at 794 01:03:20.960 --> 01:03:23.599 com you join, You go to the member feed that's a member's room, 795 01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.039 and you say, hey, how about a meetup here at on this date, 796 01:03:28.079 --> 01:03:36.320 and I guarantee you Ricochet members will join you. That's fun. I 797 01:03:36.360 --> 01:03:38.880 wish there was one here soon too. I'm just I'm sorry. I was 798 01:03:38.880 --> 01:03:42.280 stunned for a second there when you said that summer is drawing to a close. 799 01:03:42.440 --> 01:03:45.400 There's more horrifying words, right, you know what that means, James, 800 01:03:45.679 --> 01:03:50.199 it means NFL season is approaching. Yeah, there's that, There's that, 801 01:03:50.440 --> 01:03:52.360 there's that, and we can we can we can look for that. 802 01:03:52.360 --> 01:03:55.239 There's all these compensations and awards that the life gives to us. Charles, 803 01:03:55.239 --> 01:04:02.280 you said that you saw Um Oppenheimer, Rob. I assume you've seen them 804 01:04:02.280 --> 01:04:09.719 both. I've I saw Barbie instead of Openheimer, and I was wondering if 805 01:04:09.840 --> 01:04:14.280 if either of you had seen Barbie, and apparently Rob hasn't. It's an 806 01:04:14.320 --> 01:04:16.800 important movie to understand, the night guy. So Charles, you're rushing off 807 01:04:16.800 --> 01:04:20.440 to it soon, right, Sure, you're painting your golf cart pink and 808 01:04:20.519 --> 01:04:26.559 heading off to the to the I take it. No, well you know 809 01:04:26.599 --> 01:04:30.039 what, guys, James, I was waiting to see where you were going 810 01:04:30.039 --> 01:04:35.800 with that too. No, the sort of thing. Um, but you 811 01:04:35.840 --> 01:04:40.840 want to now, even when it when it shows up on streaming some day, 812 01:04:41.239 --> 01:04:46.159 you you ought to watch it. Um. I think it's been foundly 813 01:04:46.239 --> 01:04:49.800 misunderstood and mis characterized by a lot of people in the right online. I 814 01:04:49.840 --> 01:04:53.880 think in one sense the movie is half an inch deep. But there is 815 01:04:54.079 --> 01:04:58.519 so much there that you can ascribe to various schools of thought and interpretation and 816 01:04:58.559 --> 01:05:01.719 as such, because it's made by fairly smart people, it's an interesting cultural 817 01:05:01.800 --> 01:05:05.280 artifact. And whether or not you think it is the wokest thing in the 818 01:05:05.320 --> 01:05:11.199 world or you realize that it's got a lot more nuance built into it, 819 01:05:11.840 --> 01:05:17.599 the opening scenes of this movie are something that is more anthropologically profound than ninety 820 01:05:17.679 --> 01:05:20.800 nine percent of the stuff that that was turned out in the year twenty twenty 821 01:05:20.800 --> 01:05:24.159 three, and not in a good way, my dear, And that's what 822 01:05:24.280 --> 01:05:27.719 makes it interesting to me. So what you're telling me is that for the 823 01:05:27.800 --> 01:05:31.719 good of my own intellect and edification, I have to watch Margot Robbie for 824 01:05:31.760 --> 01:05:38.360 two hours. Yeah, you are willing to do that for your country, 825 01:05:38.400 --> 01:05:41.519 than good for you. It is, yes, it is not exact. 826 01:05:41.599 --> 01:05:45.639 It is not it's odd to say that a movie with Margot Robbie in it 827 01:05:45.719 --> 01:05:46.920 for two hours is actually hard on the eyes. But it is sort of 828 01:05:46.960 --> 01:05:49.599 hard on the eyes, just simply because of the color palette and the rest 829 01:05:49.639 --> 01:05:56.320 of it. But to dismiss this as just some this this woke screed, 830 01:05:56.480 --> 01:06:00.440 I think is a big mistake. No, I haven't done that. I 831 01:06:00.519 --> 01:06:02.639 just didn't have a great desire to see it because I'm not. I have 832 01:06:02.880 --> 01:06:09.920 never been in a great Bobby Target. Well, this is the brilliance of 833 01:06:09.920 --> 01:06:12.920 it. I mean, here's something that has been derided for decades by feminist 834 01:06:12.960 --> 01:06:15.320 as being the epitome of the of the Chauvin's patriarchal system that keeps to women 835 01:06:15.360 --> 01:06:17.519 it down and reduces them to their image. And all of a sudden, 836 01:06:17.599 --> 01:06:25.039 now Barbie's hot, and in an ironic postmodern sort of fashion, it's okay 837 01:06:25.079 --> 01:06:29.360 to embrace Barbie and everything connected with it. It's fast. I mean, 838 01:06:29.360 --> 01:06:31.360 it's a great job by Mattel of repositioning themselves. And you know, I 839 01:06:31.400 --> 01:06:36.639 look forward to the Jenga movie that's inevitably gonna follow. Yeah, there's a 840 01:06:36.679 --> 01:06:42.840 polypockets move. As a dad who went through who saw these phases move through 841 01:06:42.880 --> 01:06:45.639 our own household and has his own relationship with Barbie, you know, I 842 01:06:45.719 --> 01:06:49.679 gotta find the the hot Barbie this year for Christmas. I have to get 843 01:06:49.840 --> 01:06:54.119 the game. I have to hear that song again. I have a different 844 01:06:54.119 --> 01:06:57.880 relationship with it, and maybe that's why I was curious. But no, 845 01:06:59.280 --> 01:07:02.039 don't put it this way. If I had to say how I would want 846 01:07:02.039 --> 01:07:06.119 to spend three hours on a beautiful summer evening. I think Barbie and Margot 847 01:07:06.239 --> 01:07:11.679 Robbie would be preferable to Oppenheimer in Imax, although I do want to see 848 01:07:11.719 --> 01:07:15.400 that. Yeah, I'm going to see it too. Well, there we 849 01:07:15.480 --> 01:07:18.679 have it, there's your We we dig deep here when it comes to our 850 01:07:18.679 --> 01:07:23.800 cultural reviews, you know, not that mainstream stuff. Now we're talking Barbie 851 01:07:23.000 --> 01:07:28.159 and Barbie in the Bomb, which is apparently the only movies that exist right 852 01:07:28.199 --> 01:07:30.000 now at this day. Squeezing out mission impossible. It seems to be in 853 01:07:30.000 --> 01:07:32.639 the public imagination, which is supposed to be something of a pity. Since 854 01:07:32.679 --> 01:07:38.199 Tom Cruise our last, our last action hero, our last, the last 855 01:07:38.280 --> 01:07:43.000 guy who seems really invested in a molecular level in the art of cinema. 856 01:07:43.039 --> 01:07:45.000 Who would have thought that back in the days of a risky business. Anyway, 857 01:07:45.159 --> 01:07:50.239 risky business would be you not following through the promise we made at the 858 01:07:50.280 --> 01:07:53.760 top of the show where you go and join Ricochet. Well you forgot you 859 01:07:53.800 --> 01:07:57.800 made that promise. We did, We heard you. And also you promised, 860 01:07:57.840 --> 01:08:02.039 you promised to go to Apple where the podcasts are and give us five 861 01:08:02.079 --> 01:08:06.039 stars, because that would be great, wouldn't sure. But you know, 862 01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:10.920 here's the thing. Ricochet five point was right around the corner, and you're 863 01:08:10.960 --> 01:08:13.679 gonna love it so much that you don't want to comment over and over and 864 01:08:13.719 --> 01:08:16.079 over about the magnificence of the design and the brilliancy of the men who have 865 01:08:16.640 --> 01:08:21.640 of the people I'm sorry, who have Steward steward this into being, so 866 01:08:21.720 --> 01:08:25.359 you got to join. You gotta have a little skin in the game. 867 01:08:25.359 --> 01:08:28.039 As Rob said so many episodes ago, six hundred and fifty two, I 868 01:08:28.079 --> 01:08:31.159 believe in order to comment on Ricochet, that's what keeps it sane and civil. 869 01:08:31.239 --> 01:08:35.119 At the Code of Conduct moderators then a group of people who are really 870 01:08:35.119 --> 01:08:41.479 interested in having intelligent conversations and some fun nonsense as well. Gennlemana wish you 871 01:08:41.720 --> 01:08:45.039 a good weekend, and Charles, it's been great as ever. Rob regards 872 01:08:45.039 --> 01:08:49.079 to Gotham. We'll see everybody in the comments at Ricochet four point zero, 873 01:08:49.199 --> 01:08:56.039 but soon to be five next week. Next week, Fellas Ricochet joined the conversation