1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:05,040 Wait, did you say Sunderland. Sunderland? Am I having a stroke? 2 00:00:05,960 --> 00:00:12,160 Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:20,640 for your country. Mister Gerbatcheff, Tear down this wall, read my lips. 4 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:27,839 It's the Rikoreshete podcast with Charlie Looks sitting in for Peter Robinson, Rob 5 00:00:27,879 --> 00:00:30,359 loong Us. Here. I'm James Lonnox and we're going to talk to Andy 6 00:00:30,399 --> 00:00:34,439 McCarthy because if there's an indictment, insign the doctor Andy so let's I was 7 00:00:34,439 --> 00:00:42,679 also podcast charging Donald J. Trump conspiring to defraud the United States, conspiring 8 00:00:42,719 --> 00:00:48,840 to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding. They 9 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,759 were a disaster, they were a disgrace to our country, and we've caught 10 00:00:52,799 --> 00:00:58,320 them. We've caught them all. Welcome everybody. It's THEE Podcast, number 11 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,079 three hundred and fifty three. How do we get this far? Simple? 12 00:01:02,520 --> 00:01:07,359 The raw power of ricochet dot com rules on decade to decade. Go there, 13 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:10,239 by the way, take a look. You won't be able to see 14 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,200 the member feed, which is where so much fine happens, because maybe you're 15 00:01:12,239 --> 00:01:15,040 not a member, but if you sign up, you'll be the keys to 16 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:18,840 the kingdom will be granted, and you'll see exactly why we've been around for 17 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:22,640 so long and done so many wonderful things, with the help of the founders, 18 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:25,359 Rob Along and Peter Robinson, who is not here again. He is 19 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:29,200 off, yeah, an anabasis of some sort, and we'll hear about them 20 00:01:29,239 --> 00:01:32,599 that soon. Don't worry, he's coming back. But sitting in his place 21 00:01:32,599 --> 00:01:34,680 in his stead is Charles A. CW. Cook, who, of course 22 00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:42,000 recently went on Ricochet to tease five point oh, the new version which is 23 00:01:42,000 --> 00:01:45,000 coming soon and I can't wait it. Maybe we'll hear about that at the 24 00:01:45,079 --> 00:01:48,680 end of the show. But first, Rob, is it really five point 25 00:01:49,359 --> 00:01:52,280 five point? Did I miss a point zero or something? That I miss 26 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:53,319 a point something? I thought it was three point oh, but I guess 27 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:57,599 no, No four was the blue was the one that we have now at 28 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,040 one point? Of course? Was? It was entirely more so. I 29 00:02:00,079 --> 00:02:02,319 remember one point oh, believe me, it's got my blood and one point 30 00:02:02,319 --> 00:02:08,800 oh, that's right, and number doesn't work anymore. That's exactly what's you 31 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:15,759 find so sclerotic and clotted with cholesterol. I remember two point which was all 32 00:02:15,759 --> 00:02:19,159 ticker tape delivered by pass by messenger pigeon. But that was great anyway. 33 00:02:19,159 --> 00:02:21,599 Before we began, Rob said, you wanted to throw a curve ball. 34 00:02:21,719 --> 00:02:24,560 Yeah, okay, I wanted to confess something to my to my friends on 35 00:02:24,719 --> 00:02:28,879 here and my friends listening. Uh. And I you know, I just 36 00:02:29,120 --> 00:02:34,199 want to. I want to. I want you to tell me if um, 37 00:02:34,240 --> 00:02:38,199 if this I mean, I'm just telling you my honest reaction. Absolutely, 38 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:43,560 how I read this new story and you tell me if I'm a hideous 39 00:02:43,599 --> 00:02:51,919 race sister? Done? Uh? Two US Navy sailors were accused, um 40 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:55,719 and arrested, I think of passing secrets to China. So they're arrested in 41 00:02:55,719 --> 00:02:59,800 California. They arrest the arrest of Wednesday. They're in California resid Wednesday. 42 00:03:00,039 --> 00:03:04,360 Separate cases accused of passing sensitive natural offense information and military secrets to Chinese agents 43 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:13,039 can exchange for money. And I scrolled way down, way way way down 44 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:17,039 in the article to see that one of them was the machinist mate named Jin 45 00:03:17,159 --> 00:03:24,199 Chow Way also known as Patrick Way and um no way uh yeah, and 46 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:30,159 the other was a petty officer named when Hang Chow and when I read, 47 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:35,080 also known as Thomas Chow or Zoo. I think the zh Zaoum, And 48 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:38,240 when I read that, I went, oh, of course, of course, 49 00:03:38,919 --> 00:03:42,479 it just I mean, I'm not I'm not saying that I was right 50 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,280 in this response. I'm not saying that, oh, I have a I'm 51 00:03:46,319 --> 00:03:50,400 just saying that my natural response when I read those two names of those two 52 00:03:50,879 --> 00:03:55,159 US naval officers charged with espionage for the Chinese government, my initial reaction was, 53 00:03:55,759 --> 00:04:00,759 yeah, I figured that. Then my second reaction, wait, don't 54 00:04:00,759 --> 00:04:04,919 tell me I'm not a racist yet. My second reaction was, shouldn't they 55 00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:11,120 have been keeping an eye on those guys? Well, that would depend on 56 00:04:11,199 --> 00:04:14,240 a lot of things. I mean, if in the nineteen fifties you saw 57 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:18,000 that a sailor had sold nuclear secrets to the USSR, you might think, 58 00:04:18,199 --> 00:04:23,600 I wouldn't be surprised if this is Ivan Ivanovich, you know, with something 59 00:04:23,639 --> 00:04:25,680 like that at the bottom of it, because you would think perhaps they had 60 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:28,600 gotten to him through family connections. With the rest of it, that would 61 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:33,079 not be an unreasonable reaction. As far as keeping tabs on them, I 62 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:39,360 would say no, unless there was some reason, unless they had family ties 63 00:04:39,399 --> 00:04:44,480 back to unless there was some hint that they had connections to the season. 64 00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:50,639 Otherwise I do we do we look at the guys who've got Venezuela and uncles 65 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:54,759 and U and put them under the microscope, do we? We're not under 66 00:04:54,959 --> 00:04:58,800 We're not in a global competition with Venezuela. Last I check, was not 67 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,240 a global hedge of on Um. I don't know. I mean, yes, 68 00:05:01,319 --> 00:05:08,079 I guess so your answer is yes, I am native born Americans who 69 00:05:08,079 --> 00:05:12,519 happened to have a particular ethnic heritage. Do not seem to be automatically suspect 70 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:15,040 unless you got something that tells you keep an eye on that guy. Yeah, 71 00:05:15,120 --> 00:05:19,319 okay, no, you're quite right, A right. It seems to 72 00:05:19,399 --> 00:05:24,240 want to be a racist here. I don't. I really don't. I 73 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:28,680 just I was. I was a present to my instant reaction, and I 74 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:30,600 wasn't proud of it. I said, okay, I'm not gonna pretend I 75 00:05:30,600 --> 00:05:32,519 didn't have his reaction. And then when I didn't pretend I had the reaction, 76 00:05:32,519 --> 00:05:34,959 I thought to myself, Well, I mean, I know it's complicated, 77 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,720 but I mean I was not surprised, And was I not surprised because 78 00:05:39,759 --> 00:05:44,079 I am, um, you know a bad person? Well do I is? 79 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:46,360 There is there is there something? I mean and now I'm going to 80 00:05:46,439 --> 00:05:51,759 complicate things by adding to it something that happened some a statement that was made 81 00:05:51,800 --> 00:05:56,800 in July twenty fourth by the CEO of Raytheon, which is one of the 82 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:04,079 biggest defense contractors in the country and M Raytheon CEO Greg Hayes said, Um, 83 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:13,040 there's no way to full supply chains out of China. So Raytheon one 84 00:06:13,079 --> 00:06:15,800 of the biggest defense contractors, high tech defense contractors in the country. Um, 85 00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:18,839 it's going to continue to get most of it's a lot of it stuff 86 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,680 in China. Okay, that's all. That's all I want to say. 87 00:06:23,199 --> 00:06:26,879 Well, he's wrong. It just takes time. It takes time, money, 88 00:06:26,879 --> 00:06:29,639 and will like the rest of it, Like every single bleepity, bleep 89 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,079 fargin problem that posts this country, it takes will get a bit of time, 90 00:06:34,439 --> 00:06:39,240 but most of the desire to do something. Um. But I guess 91 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,000 we're in the era of throwing up our hands and shrugging our shoulders and saying 92 00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:45,199 it's a big job. I can't do that anyway. Charles, are you 93 00:06:45,199 --> 00:06:47,160 going to say, well, I don't think you're a racist drop I think 94 00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:53,240 that No, you asked the question. I think that this all depends on 95 00:06:53,319 --> 00:06:58,519 the next step. So if the question is are you a racist for not 96 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,279 being shocked that the two people within the US who were passing secrets to the 97 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:09,839 Chinese were themselves of Chinese origin, however far back that goes, that's not 98 00:07:09,959 --> 00:07:12,839 racist at all. If your next move were to say, bring back the 99 00:07:12,920 --> 00:07:17,399 Chinese Exclusion Act, it wouldn't you didn't say, I think that this is 100 00:07:18,279 --> 00:07:23,800 in a sense of a piece with the plot of Oppenheimer, which I saw 101 00:07:23,839 --> 00:07:31,839 at the weekend. That was terrific. The movie was admirably nuanced, and 102 00:07:33,199 --> 00:07:36,519 I left it thinking, well, of course the US government was suspicious of 103 00:07:36,600 --> 00:07:43,560 Robert Oppenheimer because he had been a communist or communist adjacent. Right now, 104 00:07:43,839 --> 00:07:48,759 if the conclusion from that is therefore we should throw all communists in prison or 105 00:07:48,839 --> 00:07:51,399 McCarthy was right about everything, Well, that's something else, isn't it. 106 00:07:51,439 --> 00:07:55,720 But yes, of course they were worried about people who were communist adjacent or 107 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:59,680 communists themselves, because do you know who actually spread all of our secrets to 108 00:07:59,839 --> 00:08:03,480 the Russians? People who are communists or communists Jason, So I don't think 109 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,160 it's unreasonable to say, well, if we are going to have a pipeline 110 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:13,040 from the United States to China, it is more likely to be populated by 111 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,560 people who have Chinese names than it is by say me, well, that 112 00:08:18,639 --> 00:08:24,040 seems reasonable. The trick always it's not to overreact and open interman camps. 113 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,519 Right, He's always right. I mean, it is not racist to be 114 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:31,639 not surprised. For example, when somebody who had that terrorist incident in far 115 00:08:31,679 --> 00:08:35,480 Going, North Dakota, where a man open fire on the police with automatic 116 00:08:35,519 --> 00:08:41,879 weapons, and it was not completely surprising that he hailed from the Middle East, 117 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:45,360 and then people are in rehder to were saying, oh, you know, 118 00:08:45,399 --> 00:08:46,720 all the races are going to be yelling about this look. And they 119 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,600 had a picture of the guy, and he didn't look particularly clichede Syrian, 120 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:56,840 but I'm not sure what a Syrian looks like. Point was not his ethnicity. 121 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:00,759 The point was his origin, I would say, and the fact that 122 00:09:00,799 --> 00:09:05,200 he came here from Syria in twenty nineteen and perhaps did not take to the 123 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:09,559 customs and folk ways of Fargo, North Dakota as well as he should have. 124 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:13,000 I mean, we all make these assumptions, these calculations a million times 125 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:16,600 a day, and of course everyone's had their implicit bias tests or you're toy. 126 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:22,440 I mean if if you guys had implicit biased tests and not. Yeah, 127 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,279 okay, Well, the one that I like to say is that we 128 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:28,600 were showing a whole bunch of pictures and we were asked to make assumptions about 129 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,440 them, and everybody's very nervous. Of course, if we get the wrong 130 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,840 marks, we think we're really going to get something put down in our final 131 00:09:33,879 --> 00:09:37,320 And they show a man who looks like, you know, he looked like 132 00:09:37,399 --> 00:09:41,000 Bob from Twin Peaks, and he had long hair and in a scary face 133 00:09:41,039 --> 00:09:45,759 and a leather jacket, and he was holding in his hand a bar like 134 00:09:45,759 --> 00:09:50,159 like a metal wad. So what assumptions did we make about this? And 135 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:54,559 I have everyone is, well, he's kind of a scary character and maybe 136 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,639 I'd crossed the street. Well then they zoom out like that and it turns 137 00:09:58,639 --> 00:10:03,480 out that the bar that he has in his hand is the handle of a 138 00:10:03,519 --> 00:10:07,759 baby carriage, a prem and there's a there's there's a he's pushing a carriage. 139 00:10:07,840 --> 00:10:11,080 It's like, weren't you stupid to assume what you did based on what 140 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,759 you saw? And I will say, look, I'm not walking around with 141 00:10:13,799 --> 00:10:18,759 a toilet paper tube up to my head staring at people through a small little 142 00:10:18,759 --> 00:10:22,440 aperture. I would apprehend the totality of that man at the time and would 143 00:10:22,480 --> 00:10:26,879 be able to tell you that he's no threat whatsoever, because he's gone baby 144 00:10:28,279 --> 00:10:31,840 baby herman from who you know, from the Roger Rabbit that movie is gonna, 145 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:33,279 you know, pop out with a stoke in his mouth and wake us 146 00:10:33,279 --> 00:10:39,039 all with a machine gun. So much money to have been in that room 147 00:10:39,039 --> 00:10:45,120 with James, I mentioned change. James said, it's such a dumb test, 148 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,320 right. That's the equivalent of saying, James, tell me there is 149 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:50,080 a man and he wants to kill you, what do you do? And 150 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:52,840 then you say, I run away and they say, ah, I meant 151 00:10:52,919 --> 00:10:56,279 kill you with kindness to Rachel stupid now like, well, yeah, now 152 00:10:56,320 --> 00:11:01,120 you've changed the entire premise of the question I do. Yeah, I was. 153 00:11:01,440 --> 00:11:05,639 I was unpopular with them from the start because when they asked me what 154 00:11:05,679 --> 00:11:09,720 my ethnicity was, how I identified I said North to Codon because I think 155 00:11:09,759 --> 00:11:13,759 that's much more of a guide than anything else that I could possibly say. 156 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:16,159 Then we were given legos and we were asked to make something out of the 157 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:20,600 legos right, and there was red, blue, yellow, white. And 158 00:11:20,639 --> 00:11:24,360 so what I did, because I have preference for Mondreon like compositions, I 159 00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:30,399 built something that was that segregated the individual colors in the structure to make it 160 00:11:30,480 --> 00:11:33,440 esthetically balanced. And I had to explain to the person when I said this, 161 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:37,200 do not take this as a metaphor from my desire to wall off ethnicities 162 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,919 into separate groups or physical localities in real life. I just think it's more 163 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,759 play. I mean, I felt really, really nervous about the fact that 164 00:11:45,799 --> 00:11:50,840 I have expressing an esthetic pleasure with Legos and that somehow this spoke something about 165 00:11:50,879 --> 00:11:52,600 me. It was all just ridiculous, that the whole notion of it. 166 00:11:52,639 --> 00:11:54,559 And I'm sure we're gonna have to go through it again if my boss and 167 00:11:54,600 --> 00:12:00,159 get ahold of this anyway. So Rob, there you have it. Um, 168 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,120 I guess we give you a pass, but you know we would modified 169 00:12:03,159 --> 00:12:09,799 limited hangout pass. I guess. I was just thinking that phrase as I 170 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:13,519 was walking back from the drug store with a sack of meat balls. Honest 171 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,600 to god, limited modified hangout. I was thinking that that's what they're doing 172 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,799 with the Biden and the heat. Well, of course, of course he 173 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,600 met with a son about business. You know, of course his son made 174 00:12:24,639 --> 00:12:28,279 money from which was not what we heard before. How are you guys taking 175 00:12:28,320 --> 00:12:31,799 these sort of shifting narratives? I mean, the four pinocchios was granted to 176 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,759 Biden by the Washington Post just a little bit ago, which is everyone saying 177 00:12:35,759 --> 00:12:39,799 the signs that the narrative is cracking, walls are closing in. Not sure 178 00:12:39,799 --> 00:12:43,039 about that. But what do you think is the next step here? What 179 00:12:43,039 --> 00:12:46,919 are we looking for in him to come well? I mean we should say 180 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,879 that we're you know, our guest today will be Andy McCarthy, so we'll 181 00:12:50,879 --> 00:12:54,440 be talking about the really big story that's with him, So we're not really 182 00:12:54,960 --> 00:13:03,919 we're avoiding that one. Um. Yeah, look, I uh, there's 183 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,759 so many weird things about the Biden family and Biden presidency. UM. And 184 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:13,159 I just don't understand. Um, maybe they maybe they've got some genius plan. 185 00:13:13,759 --> 00:13:20,399 I don't understand why with the seventh granddaughter they didn't make it a big 186 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:24,000 deal. I don't know why they're embarrassed by this. This seems like it'ld 187 00:13:24,000 --> 00:13:30,519 be a heart you know, warming moment. I don't understand them. The 188 00:13:30,639 --> 00:13:35,039 strange protection of Hunter Biden. Um, I don't really get it. Like 189 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,519 there's a million things they could do to sort of neutralize that and to actually, 190 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:43,799 you know, put it in context if people feel a little bit sympathetic 191 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:46,480 to this guy, I mean, not to Hunter Biden, but to his 192 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:56,159 dad. Um the weird uh sort of Jersey City mafia style kind of not 193 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:00,320 Tony Soprano, but like, you know what when the Sopranos when they were 194 00:14:00,360 --> 00:14:03,840 all involved in like the little stuff that got ugly and nasty. But it's 195 00:14:03,879 --> 00:14:07,080 like over like, that's what this feels like. And I don't I don't 196 00:14:07,200 --> 00:14:13,399 understand how. I mean, I'm always surprised at the incompetence of the Biden 197 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,240 political team. It just always surprises me because there is there is so much 198 00:14:18,279 --> 00:14:22,480 there that they need to do, and there's so much work to do, 199 00:14:22,159 --> 00:14:26,799 and there's it's such a you know, a target rich environment, and their 200 00:14:26,039 --> 00:14:31,559 political operation is so incredibly amateurish and incompetent. It makes me think that, 201 00:14:33,399 --> 00:14:37,679 you know, honestly, it makes me think that that's a lot worse than 202 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:46,720 we know. That this influence peddling is a lot worse than even our fevered 203 00:14:46,799 --> 00:14:56,279 anti Biden imaginations can conjure. I'm not going to make the same mistake as 204 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:01,399 I decried with the Russia Gate nonsense and get ahead of myself, or make 205 00:15:01,879 --> 00:15:07,120 accusations or insinuations that aren't supported by the evidence we have. But I will 206 00:15:07,159 --> 00:15:13,519 say, Okay, I will, but I will say that what we currently 207 00:15:13,799 --> 00:15:22,159 know about Hunter Biden and Joe Biden's involvement with his business is substantially worse than 208 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:31,360 anything we knew about Donald Trump and the Russia Gate allegations. Substantially worse. 209 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:39,279 And yet I won't say inexplicably because we all know why. Infuriatingly it's being 210 00:15:39,279 --> 00:15:46,600 ignored. I am so tired of reading nothing about it. If that makes 211 00:15:46,639 --> 00:15:52,799 sense. How many times did I sit on television in twenty seventeen, twenty 212 00:15:52,840 --> 00:15:58,320 eighteen, with everyone around me on CNN or MSNBC or what you will, 213 00:15:58,600 --> 00:16:04,159 hyper ventilating and thinking, you know, I'm not going to sit here and 214 00:16:04,200 --> 00:16:07,879 say that sounds like a load of old crap, because if I do that, 215 00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:15,399 I will lose my career. It will be played every time I say 216 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:18,879 anything if I turn out to be wrong or I didn't do it. But 217 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,279 I sat thinking, I think that's unlikely, and I said I don't know. 218 00:16:22,399 --> 00:16:25,879 I would wait to see the evidence. Of course, if it were 219 00:16:25,879 --> 00:16:27,039 true, it would be very serious. But I don't think we have any 220 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:34,720 evidence. This is America. We know so much more that is a problem 221 00:16:34,799 --> 00:16:38,879 in this case, and yet it seems to me no one is deliberately, 222 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:45,159 no one in a position of power in the press is doing anything about it. 223 00:16:45,159 --> 00:16:48,440 And it does matter because people think, oh, well, why doesn't 224 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,840 the right just build you know, these great investigative reporting teams. I think 225 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:55,759 it's a long term plan that is actually correct. I think the right has 226 00:16:55,799 --> 00:17:00,200 absolutely dropped the ball on this. But you can't do it overnight. You 227 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,559 know, the expertise at the Post and the New York Times and ProPublica announced 228 00:17:04,559 --> 00:17:08,559 where is necessary for this one and can't be matched except maybe by the House 229 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:14,240 of Representatives. You're wrong that the press isn't doing anything, isn't saying anything. 230 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,920 One hour ago, Hunter Biden businesses socially testified he had it's no knowledge 231 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:23,119 of wrong doing by Joe Biden, you would say today, Devin Archer testifies 232 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:29,480 Joe Biden never talked business when put on the phone Washington Post, Devin Archer 233 00:17:29,519 --> 00:17:37,279 said the opposite of what Republicans claimed. So there it is except I'm sort 234 00:17:37,319 --> 00:17:41,440 of I'm reading a lot of these things. I'm reading some notes about barisma 235 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:48,599 and the rest of it, and it seems unlikely how that this concatenation of 236 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:56,599 calls and appointments and money and prosecutorial firing and the rest of it does not 237 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:03,240 smell like loot fisk that's been left in the broiling sun for three hours. 238 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,119 A couple of weeks ago, maybe a month ago, there was a story 239 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:11,319 with three buyelines on it in the Washington Post about a Christmas party that Clarence 240 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:15,640 Thomas had held, which many of his clerks attended, and then paid him 241 00:18:15,680 --> 00:18:22,960 twenty dollars via Venmo for the chicken fingers and hamburgers and hot dogs and pepsi. 242 00:18:22,759 --> 00:18:26,519 And there were people on Twitter saying, it's very clear what's happened here. 243 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,839 These twenty dollars. Twenty dollars, These twenty dollars Venmo payments are bribes. 244 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:33,759 They're a vig. They're a vig. We all know how this works, 245 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,720 We've seen the movies. Twenty dollars And then people would say, well, 246 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,799 could you talk me through how the mechanism works. It doesn't matter. 247 00:18:41,039 --> 00:18:44,559 Once the money had been paid, Thomas knew what to do, all right. 248 00:18:45,039 --> 00:18:48,640 Now, the same people are saying, Joe Biden got on the phone 249 00:18:49,000 --> 00:18:53,640 and talked to Hunter Biden's business associates, but we can't draw anything from that. 250 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,359 Come on, right, right, Yeah, Clarence Thomas goes on a 251 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:04,559 vacation paid for by I happen to know of a lovely, lovely man actually 252 00:19:04,839 --> 00:19:14,559 and his friend and a legitimate friend. And it's clear indication of a bribery. 253 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:19,319 Joe Biden gets on the phone with Hunter Biden's clients, and it doesn't 254 00:19:19,319 --> 00:19:26,839 mean anything. It's not bribery. Consider it an investment. Use those words. 255 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,079 Government invests people to bribe, They invest I mean. But you know, 256 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:33,440 all of us like to invest in things right different the market essentials, 257 00:19:33,799 --> 00:19:37,599 ways that our life will get better down the road. But there's an investment 258 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:42,039 you can make absolutely today that will make your life so much better that the 259 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:45,480 moment the thing arrives. Am I talking about? What? Investing in high 260 00:19:45,519 --> 00:19:48,759 quality shoes so you walk around better, my high quality jackets, high quality 261 00:19:48,799 --> 00:19:52,759 cookwares that you cook better. That's all great, that's that's just a fine. 262 00:19:52,759 --> 00:19:55,079 But you know what, how about something you use for eight hours at 263 00:19:55,079 --> 00:19:59,400 a stretch those would be sheets. The sheets you use make a huge different 264 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:00,839 in your quality of life, and you can start investing in your best sleep 265 00:20:00,839 --> 00:20:04,440 today. With Bowl and Branch, they make the only sheets. They get 266 00:20:04,480 --> 00:20:08,599 softer with every wash, buttery breathable on night one, and they keep getting 267 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:12,119 softer and softer for years to come. Bold and Branch signature him to sheets 268 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,079 are the best sellers for a reason. 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And now something legal happened. 287 00:21:26,000 --> 00:21:30,079 We go to our legal guy. I was glad to see him too, 288 00:21:30,440 --> 00:21:33,839 Andy McCarty, senior fellow at the National Review Institute, contributing editor there 289 00:21:33,839 --> 00:21:38,039 as well and as well at Fox News, served as a assistant I'm sorry, 290 00:21:38,119 --> 00:21:44,240 and assistant US Attorney for the Southern District of New York. And Andy, 291 00:21:44,279 --> 00:21:48,039 how you doing? Good to see you. Indictment number TWI. This 292 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,799 is going to be the one right this, So walls are closing in. 293 00:21:52,440 --> 00:21:55,920 They're gonna sink the guy. They got him this time? Or do they 294 00:21:56,640 --> 00:22:00,880 walk us through what's being accused and what do you make of the charges, 295 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,119 Well, I don't think they were strong if they got him, James, 296 00:22:04,319 --> 00:22:07,960 I think they got him on the moralago thing when they got him on this 297 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:17,680 thing. So I think the charges here are weak, and the weakness isn't 298 00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,839 apparent because the indictment, I think, is teaming with a lot of deceptive 299 00:22:22,519 --> 00:22:29,240 behavior. Right, So there's a lot of evidence which would paint Trump in 300 00:22:29,319 --> 00:22:37,319 a very bad light and strongly suggested that everything he did was deceptive. But 301 00:22:38,079 --> 00:22:41,759 see, the thing is, I think there's been like lavish coverage about his 302 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,480 state of mind over the last few days, like what did he really know? 303 00:22:45,839 --> 00:22:49,720 Could you prove his state of mind beyond a reasonable doubt? And really, 304 00:22:51,200 --> 00:22:53,759 you know, he's Bill Barr's out there, for example, saying, 305 00:22:53,759 --> 00:22:56,720 you know, he absolutely knew he was lying. I told them that there 306 00:22:56,759 --> 00:23:02,880 was no election for it. So that's all very interesting about Trump's state of 307 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:06,160 mind. But the thing is, in a criminal case, you don't get 308 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,920 to the guy's state of mind unless you can prove that he committed a crime, 309 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:15,920 you know, putting the putting, whether he did it intentionally and knowledgeably, 310 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:19,000 and all that stuff to decide whether the acts that they've accused him of 311 00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:26,480 make out a violation of law. And I think the problem that Smith has 312 00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:34,519 is that what he has charged either are not actually crimes and I'm speaking there 313 00:23:34,519 --> 00:23:41,400 about the fraud count and maybe the obstruction count or are crimes, but they 314 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:48,480 don't fit this particular fact pattern. And that's obscured by the factual recitation in 315 00:23:48,519 --> 00:23:52,400 the indictment, which is, you know, obviously it's it's immense and it's 316 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:59,200 it's it paints Trump in a very unflattering LFE. But I don't think that 317 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:03,839 the fraud account, and this is a this is a favorite of creative prosecutors, 318 00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:11,079 this charge of conspiracy to defraud the United States, I don't think that 319 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:15,880 the Supreme Court would allow it if the case gets to the Supreme Court to 320 00:24:17,000 --> 00:24:23,119 be applied to political corruption. They've been very clear that fraud in the United 321 00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:30,160 States and federal law is a deceptive scheme to build somebody out of money or 322 00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:37,240 tangible property. They said that in two cases involving Cuomo's Andrew Cuomo's pronies chim 323 00:24:37,279 --> 00:24:41,599 and Ellie and Percoco in the middle of May, which is why I said 324 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:45,799 at the time, I thought that that would be sort of a shot across 325 00:24:45,839 --> 00:24:52,960 the bow that might make might make Jacksmith fold his tent on the election interference 326 00:24:52,960 --> 00:25:00,319 stuff. He's going with an interpretation of the defraud the United States Statute that 327 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:06,799 the Justice Department likes. It has always liked because it enables prosecutors essentially to 328 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:12,720 criminalize things that Congress has never enacted in a criminal statute. But the court 329 00:25:12,759 --> 00:25:17,160 has pretty much warned the government not to do this sort of thing, and 330 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:22,440 he's indicted into the teeth of that jurisprudence, So we'll see how that goes. 331 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:30,279 The obstruction counts, I think are problematic because everybody is allowed to try 332 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:34,400 to influence Congress, including the president. The question always when you try to 333 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:41,039 influence a tribunal is have you done it corruptly? And corruption is a term 334 00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:48,039 in federal law that, much like fraud, is one that has been extended 335 00:25:48,079 --> 00:25:55,119 in a very elastic way to cover a lot of conduct that could be constitutionally 336 00:25:55,160 --> 00:26:00,319 protected conduct. So there's always a dispute about what do you have to do 337 00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:06,519 to make out corruption and is it so vague that you should just get rid 338 00:26:06,559 --> 00:26:11,079 of the law entire home. And I think he's going to run into that 339 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,920 problem because a lot of what Trump did is constitutionally protected activity. And you 340 00:26:15,039 --> 00:26:19,279 have some judges in the DC Circuit who've taken the position that unless you do 341 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:29,480 something that is traditional criminal corrupt behavior like witness intimidation or document evidence manipulation, 342 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:37,440 that doesn't meet corruption. And the theme here I should I should stress is 343 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:41,799 that as as just as Scolia among others said, I think Scalia said it 344 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:49,640 best. It's a bedrock principle of the criminal law that criminal statutes have to 345 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:57,400 be sufficiently clear that a person of ordinary intelligence can understand what the law prohibits. 346 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:03,519 So if you get these loose concepts in statutes like fraud and corruption, 347 00:27:07,279 --> 00:27:11,359 there's a divide in the Court had to handle that. Some judges think you 348 00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:17,759 should just invalidate those statutes in toto because their presence on the books chills people 349 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:23,279 from acting in manners that are protected by the constitution. Other judges prefer what 350 00:27:23,319 --> 00:27:30,680 they call limiting construction. So, for example, Congress try to enact a 351 00:27:30,799 --> 00:27:38,119 fraud statute that would extend fraud to this concept of honest services fraud, the 352 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:45,799 idea that you have deprived people of their right to honest services. The Supreme 353 00:27:45,799 --> 00:27:52,119 Court ended up saying that that is too vague, it's not clear where that 354 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:56,319 obligation comes from, who it applies to, etc. So they, instead 355 00:27:56,359 --> 00:28:00,119 of throwing the statute out, which Scalia and a couple of other job this 356 00:28:00,279 --> 00:28:03,720 is on the court wanted to do. What they did instead was do what 357 00:28:03,759 --> 00:28:08,839 they call limiting construction. So now that statute only applies to bribery and kickbacks, 358 00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:12,960 so fraud in the United States, as far as I understand, it 359 00:28:14,039 --> 00:28:25,279 is applicable only to financial crimes, either stealing money or tangible property or bribery 360 00:28:25,279 --> 00:28:30,039 and kickbacks. But it doesn't apply to As they've said, it's not a 361 00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:34,720 vehicle by which prosecutors are supposed to impose somebody's idea of what good government looks 362 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:41,400 like. And if Congress wants to do that, they've said Congress can enact 363 00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:44,839 a statute like that as long as they are clear about it and they don't 364 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:48,839 do it in a vague manner. But it's not licensed for prosecutors to sort 365 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:56,039 of freelance as as lawmakers in the penal law. So I think he's going 366 00:28:56,079 --> 00:28:59,119 to have big problems with those counts. And I'll just say quickly, the 367 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,640 last count goes. There's been a lot of talk about this already. The 368 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:07,240 last count is a civil rights count, and it invokes a statute that was 369 00:29:07,359 --> 00:29:14,599 enacted in the post Civil War period which was designed to combat the use of 370 00:29:14,680 --> 00:29:22,559 force, specifically by the ku Klux Klan preventing violently preventing black voters from exercising 371 00:29:22,559 --> 00:29:27,480 their right to vote. And that's the statute that he's trying to bring to 372 00:29:27,519 --> 00:29:33,039 bear in this situation. He's got one Supreme Court case from the sixties that 373 00:29:33,079 --> 00:29:36,880 he's relying on for this, which is a ballot box stuff in case, 374 00:29:37,599 --> 00:29:41,960 also removed from the facts of this case. So I think the modern textualist 375 00:29:41,000 --> 00:29:47,440 Supreme Court would not even approve what the Court did in the sixties applying that 376 00:29:47,519 --> 00:29:51,480 statute to ballot stuffing. But I don't think they have to invalidate it in 377 00:29:51,559 --> 00:29:55,359 order to just say, look, this doesn't apply here, because even if 378 00:29:55,359 --> 00:30:04,279 the ballot stuffing rationale is color that is directed at the act of voting, 379 00:30:04,599 --> 00:30:11,799 whereas what is involved in the case with Trump is after the fact challenges to 380 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:15,880 the voting, which would have the effect of canceling out votes. But it's 381 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:18,519 not the same thing as ballot box stuffing. So I just think legally, 382 00:30:18,599 --> 00:30:25,359 all four counts are they have big trouble with them? So and it just 383 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:30,240 so we're clear here, because I've seen people conflating these two questions in both 384 00:30:30,559 --> 00:30:36,640 directions, trying to hang one on the other. What we are discussing here 385 00:30:37,759 --> 00:30:42,519 is whether or not what Trump did was a crime. But we're not discussing 386 00:30:42,519 --> 00:30:48,079 whether or not he did it. What Trump did was to try to rewrite 387 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:57,039 the Electoral count Act and the Twelfth Amendment to empower Vice President Pence to overturn 388 00:30:57,079 --> 00:31:03,799 the results of the election and make president once again. That's not really at 389 00:31:03,839 --> 00:31:12,000 stake. What is being debated here is whether there are statutes that support this 390 00:31:12,119 --> 00:31:25,160 indictment and or whether this is an intrinsically political matter. But the facts of 391 00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:32,680 the case are established. I asked this because I've seen people say, essentially, 392 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:37,400 well, we know what Trump did was terrible. I agree, and 393 00:31:37,599 --> 00:31:42,319 we know January sixth happened. I agree therefore he should be charged with a 394 00:31:42,319 --> 00:31:45,799 crime, which is a non secretary. But I've also seen people saying, 395 00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,599 we're implying if this isn't a crime, if this is intrinsically political, if 396 00:31:51,599 --> 00:31:56,680 there's no statutory basis for it, if the definition of fraud has indeed been 397 00:31:56,759 --> 00:32:01,799 narrowed by the Supreme Court such that this your fools outside of the law. 398 00:32:02,279 --> 00:32:07,480 Therefore, Trump didn't do anything wrong. That's not correct, right, right, 399 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:10,160 It would mean he didn't do anything that was prohibited by the criminal law. 400 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:14,240 But there are a lot of things that are not prohibited by the criminal 401 00:32:14,319 --> 00:32:16,079 law that are wrong. And I think, Charlie, though, you also 402 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:22,200 hit on something which is a point I've been trying to make about the political 403 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:27,880 nature of this. I think what's going on here in part is that they 404 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:34,079 are trying to use the criminal justice process as a proxy for the failure of 405 00:32:34,119 --> 00:32:38,440 the political process to hold Trump accountable. All the things that Charlie just laid 406 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:45,000 out are indisputable he did these things. There's no doubt that they're high crimes 407 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:50,480 and misdemeanors. But you don't have to have a criminal offense in order to 408 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,480 have high crimes and misdemeanors. What Hamilton, for example, in the Federalist 409 00:32:53,519 --> 00:33:01,599 Papers talks about is high crimes or impeachable offenses as what he called political offenses, 410 00:33:02,039 --> 00:33:07,759 by which he meant profound abuses of the political power that's allotted in the 411 00:33:07,839 --> 00:33:15,160 Constitution. And you know the fact that Smith does not have a crime that 412 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:21,640 he can easily apply to Trump's activity. I think he is a feature of 413 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,640 the system, not a bug. I don't think this is something people forgot, 414 00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:30,119 like like Congress just you know, in some oversight, they in almost 415 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:35,599 the order of a millennium, they haven't enacted criminal laws that would put the 416 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,880 Justice Department in the FBI monitoring elections. I think that's intentional. And the 417 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,599 way the system is designed, presidential abuses a power are supposed to be checked 418 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:52,880 by Congress, not by the criminal law. So I think that's the main 419 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,680 problem that that Smith has. Can I ask a very by follow up on 420 00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:01,720 that exact point. I read through the indictment, and I read the debate 421 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:07,639 between the editors at National Review and Noah Rothman and you and Noah Rothman and 422 00:34:07,719 --> 00:34:13,760 some of the criticisms of National Reviews editorial, and it struck me. And 423 00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:20,000 correct me if I'm wrong that a creative prosecutor under this theory, even with 424 00:34:20,119 --> 00:34:24,840 the narrowed conception of fraud, could bring a case against an out of office 425 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:32,679 Joe Biden for his student loan order, because you could argue ass here, 426 00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:37,800 and again, Andy, correct me if this is wrong, that Joe Biden 427 00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:43,559 tried to defraud the treasury. He tried to gain a pecuniary advantage from the 428 00:34:43,639 --> 00:34:47,760 Treasury by misrepresenting a law. Now, usually you would say, well, 429 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:52,039 that's a political question, but I suppose the argument against this indictment is, 430 00:34:52,079 --> 00:34:55,599 well, so is this Is that a fair analogy? Yeah, I think 431 00:34:55,639 --> 00:35:00,519 that's right. The way they would put it would be to say that he 432 00:35:00,039 --> 00:35:07,119 engaged in a deceptive scheme that undermined an essential function of government, to wit 433 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:14,880 Congress's ability to budget. And you can see how dangerous this is. I 434 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:20,519 mean, basically. In fact, during the Muller investigation, Andrew Weiseman, 435 00:35:20,559 --> 00:35:27,559 I'm you know, this line of reasoning is very popular with progressives in the 436 00:35:27,639 --> 00:35:32,599 Justice Department, who liked to use the Statute in order to impose their own 437 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:36,960 visions of good government, just like, for example, they used the Civil 438 00:35:37,039 --> 00:35:43,719 Rights Statute to impose their own vision of what good policing is. And in 439 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:51,119 the Muller investigation, they charged Paul Manifford with defrauding the United States, and 440 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:57,960 the scheme was that by failing to register as a foreign agent, he undermined 441 00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,519 the ability of the government to have a comprehensive accurate registry of foreign agents. 442 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,280 Now, if you wanted to have a statute like that, I mean, 443 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,920 we do have a Foreign Agent Registration Act, but if you wanted to turn 444 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:14,920 it into a conspiracy, you could. You could enact a conspiracy. That 445 00:36:15,039 --> 00:36:17,360 says, okay, So, since we're coming up with an analogies, here's 446 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:23,400 the one I came up with yesterday. Barack Obama tells me told me a 447 00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:27,519 bunch of years ago, if I like my doctor, I can keep my 448 00:36:27,599 --> 00:36:31,199 doctor. At the time, he said that he knew that was not absolutely 449 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:36,760 that was not possible under the Affordable Care Act. They acknowledged later that it 450 00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,519 was kind of a lie to get the thing passed, which to basically nationalize 451 00:36:39,519 --> 00:36:45,360 the gigantic part of the federal budget and the federal government entitled programs. Was 452 00:36:45,400 --> 00:36:52,639 he defrauding the government the people of America? Well, I guess it depends 453 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:58,119 on who we said it to. Wow, so well right, But Trump 454 00:36:58,199 --> 00:37:01,360 is in charge. Even Smith has not gone so far as to say that 455 00:37:01,559 --> 00:37:07,880 lying to the public is a crime. I think he's close, very close 456 00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,760 to it. So, you know what, So, so just clarified this 457 00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,280 stuff for me, because I know you must be really tired of doing this, 458 00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:19,199 because basically, what you do when these things happen is you have to 459 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:23,400 go and painstakingly explain to people what it really means. So there's a huge 460 00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:27,400 amount of pushback on this, which is basically and I think that will be 461 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,199 the part of the Trump defense. It's like, hey, hey, he 462 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:34,280 can say anything he wants First Amendment, right, And then the second part 463 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,039 is what you said isn't really relevant. Which was interesting to me was that, 464 00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:42,760 well, it didn't matter. He knew that what he was saying was 465 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,119 false, and he was lying so that he could remain in the White House. 466 00:37:45,519 --> 00:37:51,960 So his mental state in at least in the indictment is actually part of 467 00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:54,360 the indictment. When I read it, his mental state was important. Jack 468 00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:00,199 Smith thinks it's important, but you're telling me it's not. Well, let 469 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:04,480 me try to put this in two different buckets because it raises two different concerns, 470 00:38:04,599 --> 00:38:07,320 right, So, well that's me. You know, I'm very complex. 471 00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:13,800 I'm a complex thinker. Yes, and you require so much new ucell. 472 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:20,280 Yeah you gotta worm, yeah yeah. So um, you know I 473 00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:24,760 used to cases and if the you know, if the dons in the in 474 00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:30,239 the clubhouse with a bunch of the guys and they're deciding, like what are 475 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,960 we doing tomorrow, and he says, I want that guy whacked. I 476 00:38:35,119 --> 00:38:40,039 never once in all the years I did mafia cases heard of First Amendment defense. 477 00:38:43,079 --> 00:38:49,199 I was sizing right different. So the way that we usually prove conspiracy 478 00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:53,960 and the way that we prove criminal conduct is by speech as much as anything 479 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:59,199 else, because it conveys not only it not only results in action, it 480 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:06,960 also conveys is what people's intent was when they acted. So it's been a 481 00:39:07,159 --> 00:39:14,679 it's long been a doctrine of law that there is no free speech prohibition on 482 00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:20,320 the use of words as evidence. What the criminal law prohibits is, or 483 00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:29,280 what the constitution prohibits is in almost every context making statements criminal per se, 484 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,719 like just for the fact that you say them, the fact that you say 485 00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:38,719 words making that act of a crime. But to the extent that the acts 486 00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:46,280 either trigger action or they convey somebody's intent, they are admissible as evidence if 487 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,960 you can show that they are evidence of a crime. So, for example, 488 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:55,559 I heard Bill bare on CNN say, try to make this point, 489 00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:02,199 but he makes it in further so, the idea that the statute as it's 490 00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:07,920 been interpreted by the Fraud Statute as it's been interpreted by the Justice Department to 491 00:40:07,039 --> 00:40:15,280 prohibit deceptive schemes that undermine essential functions of government. What he's saying is that 492 00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:20,719 if you have speech that shows that that that's not a problem. And I 493 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:22,159 think it is a problem, but I don't think it's a problem because you're 494 00:40:22,239 --> 00:40:24,960 using speech. I think it's a problem because it's not a crime. The 495 00:40:25,039 --> 00:40:37,519 other bucket here is constitutionally speech that gets enhanced constitutional protection, And if you're 496 00:40:37,559 --> 00:40:45,719 talking about words that are used or speech that is used politically or in a 497 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:52,039 political context, or in an electoral context, there's obviously a higher interest in 498 00:40:52,119 --> 00:41:01,119 the Justice Department and the government generally not using that speech to prove crimes unless 499 00:41:01,159 --> 00:41:06,800 the crimes are very serious. And this more gets into i think, probably 500 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:14,199 prosecutorial discretion than any strict legal prohibition. But the Justice Department ought to stay 501 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:21,079 out of electoral politics unless you have a very clear crime that's supported by very 502 00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:24,400 convincing evidence. If you don't have that, and you're doing what I think 503 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:29,440 Smith is doing, which is trying to jimmy something up in a way that 504 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:37,320 puts a damper on people's ability to participate in electoral politics. That's a real 505 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,960 problem as far as constitutional laws. Games, can I ask just one more 506 00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,639 question. I know James wants to get into, So just go back to 507 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:51,079 Muller reports. As you mentioned, the Muller report said kind of what people 508 00:41:51,119 --> 00:41:52,559 say it said, which is like, he didn't do any of the stuff. 509 00:41:52,559 --> 00:41:58,639 This Russia hopes was a Russia hopes basically right, But there was obstruction 510 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:02,880 and Mueller said, I can't. I'm not going to process. I'm not 511 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:07,920 going to indict anyone for obstructions that do I have that right? Well, 512 00:42:07,960 --> 00:42:10,719 it seems like people, yeah, people can argue about Muller report, those 513 00:42:10,760 --> 00:42:14,039 of us who say, well, the Bull report proves that this whole thing 514 00:42:14,119 --> 00:42:15,280 was a put up job, And then people say, oh, no, 515 00:42:15,320 --> 00:42:19,599 it doesn't remember because there was that obstruction. Is that am I he missreading 516 00:42:19,639 --> 00:42:24,280 that he didn't find obstruction. What he said was that he couldn't he wouldn't 517 00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:29,400 answer the question of whether there was obstruction or not. And it was a 518 00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:35,119 complete weasel move by Muller. What he said, which was precious, was 519 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:44,320 it would be it would be bad to make a finding that he had committed 520 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:50,000 obstruction because under Justice Department guidelines you can indict a sitting president, So it 521 00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:55,119 would be like indicting the president without indicting him and putting the stain on him 522 00:42:55,119 --> 00:42:59,599 in the court of public opinion when he doesn't have a trial venue to go 523 00:43:00,039 --> 00:43:02,480 defend his honor. And by the way, here's two hundred pages of what 524 00:43:02,559 --> 00:43:12,360 he did, yea. So in the end, what happened was the whole 525 00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:19,039 concept of accusing the president of obstruction of justice if he if it's based on 526 00:43:19,119 --> 00:43:23,599 things that the president constitutionally can do, like firing the FBI director, is 527 00:43:23,599 --> 00:43:30,800 a wayward idea. So Barr and Rod Rosenstein, who were the you know 528 00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:35,960 AG and the deputy ag when Muller filed his report, said, you know, 529 00:43:36,000 --> 00:43:37,920 I don't know what we're going to do with this guy because there was 530 00:43:38,199 --> 00:43:43,000 it was already known there was no Russia collusion at the time he got the 531 00:43:43,039 --> 00:43:45,559 case. So the one thing we actually need this guy for is to make 532 00:43:45,639 --> 00:43:49,760 up finding about whether there's obstruction here or not. And he won't do it, 533 00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:53,000 basically abdicated. So they say we're going to look at it, and 534 00:43:53,119 --> 00:43:58,400 basically there's a lot of ikey conduct here. But like if if Trump is 535 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,360 flying off the handle, that he wants mull Or fired, or he wants 536 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:05,440 Sessions fired, or he wants whatever he wants. That's all stuff he's allowed 537 00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:08,480 to do. And even if some you know, subordinate like a prosecutor, 538 00:44:08,559 --> 00:44:14,800 thinks that he took an action he was allowed constitutionally to take for a corrupt 539 00:44:14,840 --> 00:44:20,320 reason, right, it's not obstruction. So they looked at it and said, 540 00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:23,440 there's no obstruction. Okay. So um, special prosecutor Andy McCarthy, 541 00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:32,920 does he indict Trump for the January sixth stuff? No, not taking Trump 542 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:37,400 out of it. Rob. If a prosecutor, when I was a boss 543 00:44:37,400 --> 00:44:43,199 in the US Attorney's office, if a prosecutor brought me an indictment that was 544 00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:49,599 based on a theory of fraud that the Supreme Court had slapped down like five 545 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:53,760 minutes ago, I would tell him that he needed to get caught up on 546 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,559 his reading, you know. Okay, So I think that's what he did. 547 00:44:57,599 --> 00:45:00,599 Here, a special prosecutor, a special process heter Andie McCarthy walks through 548 00:45:00,639 --> 00:45:06,159 the hotel buffet of the you know, the brunch, and all the tables 549 00:45:06,159 --> 00:45:08,559 are out there. He can choose any one of these Trump cases or a 550 00:45:08,559 --> 00:45:15,880 future case he wants to take and to make your be successful with which one 551 00:45:15,920 --> 00:45:19,960 do you like? Which one would Andie McCarthy think this is going to be 552 00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:23,400 easy, I can I could go home at four. I think the Moralogo 553 00:45:23,519 --> 00:45:29,079 case is that case. Now. I don't think it's going to be easy 554 00:45:29,159 --> 00:45:32,639 on the prosecutors who have to do it, only because I've been through a 555 00:45:32,639 --> 00:45:42,000 couple of these Classified Information Procedure Act litigations. It's called SIPA, and these 556 00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:49,239 are they're in their resource intensive prosecutions because they feature what I would call like 557 00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:54,079 a free trial trial of the trial, in other words, before the case 558 00:45:54,159 --> 00:45:57,360 goes to the jury. I've been asked, like a number of times, 559 00:45:57,400 --> 00:46:00,000 do you have to get clearance for the jury in the moral Ago case. 560 00:46:00,559 --> 00:46:07,480 The way it works is you have to litigate prior to trial what classified evidence 561 00:46:07,599 --> 00:46:12,039 is admissible, and then once you figure that out, the court tells the 562 00:46:12,119 --> 00:46:15,719 government you have to declassify this stuff. And if they don't want to declassify 563 00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:22,960 it, they can propose a substitution that puts the defendant in the same position 564 00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:25,760 to make whatever arguments that he would otherwise make to the jury, but withholds 565 00:46:28,360 --> 00:46:30,960 methods and sources and that kind of stuff. That's not always practical to do. 566 00:46:31,599 --> 00:46:38,199 So it's the one weird area of law where the law allows the Attorney 567 00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:45,840 General to order the court not to allow admissible evidence into the case. But 568 00:46:45,039 --> 00:46:52,559 while the government, the executive branch, is the master of classified intelligence, 569 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:57,760 the court is the master of the legal proceeding. So if the Attorney General 570 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,920 orders the judge don't let this submissible evidence in, the judge can't let the 571 00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:06,800 evidence in. But the judge can dismiss counts in the indictment that the evidence 572 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,480 is relevant to, or dismiss the whole indictment if it comes to that. 573 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:15,960 So that takes a long time to do. We had a SEPA litigation in 574 00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,599 the blind Shake case that you know. I mean, it wasn't the only 575 00:47:17,599 --> 00:47:21,519 thing going on, but we've litigated it for about a year and a half. 576 00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,719 I had a real problem getting information out of the CIA. It was 577 00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:30,719 all about like what were we doing in Afghanistan and who was our cut out 578 00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:36,239 and all that stuff. But after eighteen months, I think at the end 579 00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,239 of the rainbow, I ended up reading a nine line stipulation to the jury 580 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:45,079 at the end of the case. So it's a lot of work for what 581 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,679 sometimes is very little at the end of the rainbow, so that part of 582 00:47:47,679 --> 00:47:52,960 it is going to be resource intensive. But the actual case, I don't 583 00:47:52,000 --> 00:47:55,800 think it is a hard case. I mean, I just think it's a 584 00:47:55,800 --> 00:48:00,920 pretty black and white violational law, and it looks to me like the evidence 585 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:07,519 has gotten stronger over time. Speaking of cutouts and pro Russian members of Ukrainian 586 00:48:07,559 --> 00:48:12,840 oil companies, gas companies before my then revolution, What are we looking at 587 00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:16,920 with Biden here in terms of legal trouble. Can you see the will or 588 00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:23,239 the means or the actual case for impeaching him now? Well, I think 589 00:48:23,280 --> 00:48:28,400 there should certainly be an impeach impeachment inquiry. I heard and I agreed with 590 00:48:28,519 --> 00:48:34,199 Charlie before I came on that there's obviously more evidence here to, you know, 591 00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:38,039 just to justify an investigation. I think there's more evidence here than what 592 00:48:38,119 --> 00:48:44,280 they actually impeach Trump for the first time, you know, the actual oracles 593 00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:51,880 of impeachment where if you remember in the Ukraine impeachment they had to call it 594 00:48:52,119 --> 00:48:55,159 I can't remember who was it called abuse of power, But the reason they 595 00:48:55,159 --> 00:48:58,960 had to call it whatever they called it was they couldn't come up with a 596 00:48:58,960 --> 00:49:04,800 penal crime that he it commit so here, Uh, you know, I 597 00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:10,239 think you have a lot more evidence and if the poll Manafoord case is the 598 00:49:10,280 --> 00:49:15,119 model, and that's the closest thing I can think of that that comes to 599 00:49:15,159 --> 00:49:19,000 what you know Hunter and company were up to. You know, they charge 600 00:49:19,039 --> 00:49:23,400 that as a tax case of money laundering, failure to register as a foreign 601 00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:28,679 agent, etc. So it's a Capone stuff, right, Yeah, Well, 602 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,519 it looks like there's a there's evidence of real crimes and when they bring 603 00:49:31,679 --> 00:49:37,800 money laundering in, money laundering has very heavy penalties because it's customarily associated with 604 00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,639 organized crime and drug trafficking. So for that reason, it's it's it's got 605 00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:47,960 very high penalty structure. So these are real crimes. As to Biden, 606 00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:52,840 you know, it looks like the constitution says that you could be impeached not 607 00:49:52,920 --> 00:49:58,159 just for high crimes and misdemeanors, but for treason or bribery. And a 608 00:49:58,199 --> 00:50:00,679 lot of this looks like bribery. So you know, I don't want to 609 00:50:00,679 --> 00:50:05,639 get ahead of what we know, but like, there's there's pretty significant evidence 610 00:50:05,639 --> 00:50:08,639 of bribery here, right. I wish al Capone had taken up painting, 611 00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,159 you know, I had become a cubist painter and started selling all of his 612 00:50:14,199 --> 00:50:16,239 work to launder his money to people who wanted to. You know, the 613 00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,119 whole dodge that we have with Hunter in his are just imagine all of the 614 00:50:20,159 --> 00:50:23,320 great crime families, all of the dons, all of them taking up painting 615 00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:30,079 as the stylistic wasn't Hitler. Wasn't Hitler a painter, yeah, and a 616 00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:37,679 mediocre one really, but a dog lover. I'm glad was God went all 617 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,639 the way here, you know, to end up maybe on on on a 618 00:50:39,679 --> 00:50:44,360 gaseous note, because I all my questions have been answered here pretty much. 619 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:49,039 It's interesting that you and Rob and probably Charlie take refuge in this charming thing 620 00:50:49,039 --> 00:50:53,840 that you call constitutionality. I mean, yes, I too share your concern 621 00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:57,519 for the Founding Document and the preservation of it. But we have a new 622 00:50:57,559 --> 00:51:02,360 generation, and we have a party that is increasingly disinclined to believe that free 623 00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:06,119 speeches as absolute as we'd like, as a matter of fact, that it's 624 00:51:06,119 --> 00:51:08,760 the government's job to protect us from misinformation and from hate speech and all the 625 00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:12,920 rest of those things. It seems to me that even if there's no there 626 00:51:13,039 --> 00:51:15,599 there when it comes to criminality on Trump's part, the fact that he said 627 00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:22,280 lies is almost enough now to justify a criminal investigation. I mean when Charles 628 00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:24,960 was saying, rob was talking earlier about the Obama statement about the amount of 629 00:51:25,159 --> 00:51:30,280 your doctor I mean at the time, Yeah, politicians lie. We accept 630 00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,000 that it's built in, it's baked in. But now it seems like we're 631 00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:36,679 getting to a point that politically, you have a party that would certainly like 632 00:51:36,840 --> 00:51:42,519 to prosecute somebody simply for lying because the end result is hateful. When Charles 633 00:51:42,519 --> 00:51:45,320 mentioned, could it possibly be that they would go back and get Joe Biden 634 00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:51,360 for unconstitutional lifting of the student debt? Well, no, because that was 635 00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,519 a good thing. His heart was in the right place. The objectives were 636 00:51:53,519 --> 00:51:59,159 all truistic. Do you see us actually drifting into a place where this sort 637 00:51:59,199 --> 00:52:06,599 of political intentional desire to criminalize statements is what we're getting to. Yeah, 638 00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:12,480 I think we're there already, And I think the more dangerous thing is the 639 00:52:12,519 --> 00:52:15,079 criminalization of the things that you say that are true. You know, anybody 640 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:20,800 who says things that are untrue, if you're saying in a legal context or 641 00:52:20,880 --> 00:52:24,599 in a financial context, you're probably on the border of fraud or false. 642 00:52:24,639 --> 00:52:28,719 Statements that are actionable and that sort of thing. So, you know, 643 00:52:28,800 --> 00:52:31,360 false statements is one thing, but what I worry about is true statements. 644 00:52:32,079 --> 00:52:38,840 And I started to complain about this during the Obama administration when they co sponsored, 645 00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:44,960 i think with Turkey in Egypt, a UN resolution that wanted to make 646 00:52:44,960 --> 00:52:49,719 it a crime and impose on every country the obligation to enact in its criminal 647 00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:59,159 code a prohibition against speech that would cause hostility to religion. And it was 648 00:52:59,199 --> 00:53:02,519 clear that there was only one religion obviously that they were were talking about, 649 00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,039 but you know, they had a lot of other stuff in there too that 650 00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:10,960 you could legitimately criminalize. But if you just parsed it down to that, 651 00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:19,800 you can't criminalize speech that would cause hostility to anything in American law. And 652 00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:25,519 yet the Obama administration tried to sort of end around the Congress by signing onto 653 00:53:25,559 --> 00:53:29,039 that with a bunch of countries and then try to, you know, the 654 00:53:29,079 --> 00:53:31,920 same way they did the Iran deal, not go through the treaty provision, 655 00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:38,960 not go to Congress for enabling legislation. Basically make a deal with a bunch 656 00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:43,880 of countries and then impose it as if you could do it by customary international 657 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:49,679 law or something along those lines, but they were the left was all in 658 00:53:50,079 --> 00:53:55,039 on this idea that you could criminalize that speech. And what they wanted to 659 00:53:55,079 --> 00:53:59,880 go after were you know, for example, people like the same people who 660 00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:06,880 about purged from their gigs as FBI lecturers because they were teaching people about the 661 00:54:06,920 --> 00:54:12,440 history of jihad and and you know what its roots in Islamic doctrine was. 662 00:54:12,679 --> 00:54:17,199 All those things they were saying were true, but they wanted to outlaw them 663 00:54:19,079 --> 00:54:27,719 in the interest of you know, uh, not humiliating Muslim countries or not 664 00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,840 upsetting them. And mainly it was like a lot of it was like Heckler's 665 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:35,960 Veto kind of stuff, where you know, it's now supposed to be your 666 00:54:36,039 --> 00:54:39,599 fault if you say something that makes somebody else violent, rather than their fault 667 00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:45,119 that they're violent irrationally. So I think this has been you know, that 668 00:54:45,159 --> 00:54:47,679 goes back to two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine, so we've 669 00:54:47,719 --> 00:54:52,320 been there for a long time. It's just snowballed, and I think it's 670 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:57,360 become one of those things where it's like, yeah, it's just, um, 671 00:54:58,119 --> 00:55:00,679 what do they say about bankruptcy, Like how did you go bankrupt? 672 00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:01,800 You know, wells over a long time, and then it was all at 673 00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:06,840 once. It seems to be like it seems to be that we're like, 674 00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:09,440 we're there with this stuff. You know, you could see the seeds a 675 00:55:09,519 --> 00:55:15,000 bit going along over the last ten plush years. But I think we're it's 676 00:55:15,039 --> 00:55:17,679 really hitting us over the head. That's that's a Fitzgerald quote. I believe. 677 00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,079 How did you go broke gradually? Then suddenly, Charles, you had 678 00:55:22,079 --> 00:55:24,960 something to do? I do. I have a final question that I've been 679 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:30,559 wondering about for a while, Andy, what is the limit on what you 680 00:55:30,679 --> 00:55:37,079 can be prosecuted for in conversations with a lawyer. So one of the defenses 681 00:55:37,119 --> 00:55:42,280 that I've seen against this indictment is it's not a crime to follow bad legal 682 00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:46,320 advice. So if you go back to the Trump administration, I remember there 683 00:55:46,320 --> 00:55:50,880 were some progressives who wanted to prosecute him for a conversation you have with Don 684 00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:55,760 McGann. Yeah, if I call up my tax lawyer and I say, 685 00:55:57,320 --> 00:56:00,760 what would happen to me if I didn't pay any of my taxes? It's 686 00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:04,760 not a crime for me to ask him that question, obviously, But if 687 00:56:04,800 --> 00:56:07,559 I call up my lawyer and I say, I'm thinking of blowing up my 688 00:56:07,639 --> 00:56:12,119 local Wendy's, Like, you know, would I get prosecuted for that? 689 00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,000 And then he says, no, you wouldn't, And then I go and 690 00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:16,440 do it. I can't turn around to the court and say, well, 691 00:56:16,679 --> 00:56:20,400 my lawyer said that I'd get away with it, right, So you know, 692 00:56:20,679 --> 00:56:22,960 I'm just just being prosecuted for taking bad legal advice. Right now, 693 00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,960 it was the blowing up the Wendy's that did it. Like, where is 694 00:56:27,000 --> 00:56:31,119 the line here? Because there has to be some room, obviously for people 695 00:56:31,760 --> 00:56:36,679 to say in good faith, Look, I think the interpretation of this law 696 00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:38,679 is wrong. I mean there are lawyers who for fifty years said rov Wade 697 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:44,880 was wrong. Obviously that's not a crime, But where's the line? Yeah, 698 00:56:45,119 --> 00:56:51,280 just like the sign Feld episode where you know he has sex with the 699 00:56:52,360 --> 00:56:57,920 janitor on the Yeah, was that wrong? Because someone told me if there 700 00:56:57,920 --> 00:57:01,320 are a bit of rule against that. Yeah. But I think I think 701 00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:07,119 the divide you're talking about is the one they always talk about between you know, 702 00:57:07,320 --> 00:57:12,880 malam and say and malam prohibit them laws, Like there are certain things 703 00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,480 that are evil innately and you can't get out of the having the mental state 704 00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:21,519 for committing them by like passing it off on. You know, my lawyer 705 00:57:21,519 --> 00:57:22,840 told me it was okay to burder that guy. That's you know, you 706 00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:30,119 can't. But I think the more you have laws and especially regulations that now 707 00:57:30,159 --> 00:57:34,800 have you have some regulations now that have criminal penalties attached to them, and 708 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:38,480 even if they're not criminal penalties, to heavy duty financial penalties as well. 709 00:57:38,719 --> 00:57:44,800 I think the more that you get into the area of things that we prohibit 710 00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:51,000 because we decide to prohibit them, not that are innately wrong, the better 711 00:57:51,119 --> 00:57:54,320 you have a defense that you relied on the people that were expected to rely 712 00:57:54,440 --> 00:57:59,760 on, like accountants and lawyers, and they steered you wrong. Which ones 713 00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:06,079 there? I think, Well, this is a different issue because I think 714 00:58:07,079 --> 00:58:12,159 with respect to with respect to Trump, what you have in the indictment is 715 00:58:12,159 --> 00:58:16,039 the prosecutor's version of what he was told for the purpose of proving that he 716 00:58:16,159 --> 00:58:20,679 knew what he was doing was wrong. Okay. And I think what Trump 717 00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:23,400 is going to say is, if his lawyer is clever enough, I think 718 00:58:23,400 --> 00:58:30,400 he'll say the indictment itself shows that it's reasonable as far as the government is 719 00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:35,320 concerned, to deduce what somebody must have known by what other people were telling 720 00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:38,679 him. Now let me bring you the hundred witnesses that were telling President Trump 721 00:58:38,719 --> 00:58:44,159 things that the grand jury was never told. And you know, they'll bring 722 00:58:44,159 --> 00:58:45,440 in a lot of witnesses who told them there was a lot of fraud. 723 00:58:45,519 --> 00:58:49,119 And I you know the other thing, Charlie, that I would do if 724 00:58:49,119 --> 00:58:53,039 I were Trump's lawyers, is you know Bill Barr could come in and say, 725 00:58:53,119 --> 00:58:58,280 I told him that was wrong. I told him these three fraud fraudulent 726 00:58:58,400 --> 00:59:00,760 voting things that he was relying on were wrong. They'll bring in a bunch 727 00:59:00,760 --> 00:59:05,920 of people who told them that. You know, in connection with the Pennsylvania 728 00:59:06,000 --> 00:59:09,480 case that the Supreme Court refused to take about whether the court and the election 729 00:59:09,519 --> 00:59:16,119 officials had the authority to change the statutory rules in Pennsylvania, Clarence Thomas wrote 730 00:59:16,119 --> 00:59:22,880 a dissent when the Court wouldn't take that case, in which he said, 731 00:59:22,320 --> 00:59:27,719 you know, look, we need to take these cases before the election, 732 00:59:28,039 --> 00:59:31,039 because if you wait until after the election, the time is too compressed. 733 00:59:31,719 --> 00:59:37,679 There's no reasonable way that you can figure out, investigate and litigate whether there 734 00:59:37,840 --> 00:59:42,559 was fraud. And I think what Trump is going to say is, you 735 00:59:42,599 --> 00:59:46,880 know, whatever everybody's state of information was in December, say early December when 736 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,880 I spoke to bar look at all this evidence we now have that the election 737 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,960 was stolen. And one of the things his lawyers have been talking about is 738 00:59:53,960 --> 00:59:59,679 the fact that for the first time, because Jack Smith has indicted him, 739 00:59:59,760 --> 01:00:02,480 he he now has subpoena power. So for the first time he can go 740 01:00:02,519 --> 01:00:07,679 out and actually use subpoena power to investigate what he says was the election fraud 741 01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:10,679 of twenty twenty. And I think they're going to try to litigate that in 742 01:00:10,679 --> 01:00:15,880 this case. I know, you got to go. I got one. 743 01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,679 I just I got to ask you one question of Bautist indictment in general, 744 01:00:17,840 --> 01:00:22,559 right, if you were looking at all the bits and pieces of it, 745 01:00:22,599 --> 01:00:28,079 isn't the certification of the false electors the strongest case that Jack Smith has. 746 01:00:29,559 --> 01:00:31,639 You know, I don't think it's going to be that way, Rob when 747 01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:35,400 it all, when everything comes out. Now, maybe I could be wrong 748 01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:38,760 about this, but I always understood and I've read, you know, some 749 01:00:38,800 --> 01:00:42,960 of the things that have been said by the electors with the so called fake 750 01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:51,079 electors in Georgia, where their point is that they were contingent electors that they 751 01:00:51,119 --> 01:00:55,119 were signing on to be electors in the event that right, And I think 752 01:00:55,159 --> 01:01:00,400 that's what you know. Now there's people in Trump's can who called them, 753 01:01:00,719 --> 01:01:05,000 you know, fake electors or whatever they call them. Yeah, but you 754 01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,119 know, I think this is one of these things that actually reads better than 755 01:01:08,119 --> 01:01:12,920 it played at the time. I mean, at the time on January sixth, 756 01:01:12,960 --> 01:01:15,639 nobody thought those slates of electors were going to be a Yeah. It 757 01:01:15,639 --> 01:01:19,199 wasn't like they were. They were kidnapping the electors and showing up with their 758 01:01:19,239 --> 01:01:22,079 big idea. Okay, that was the That's the only thing that was sort 759 01:01:22,119 --> 01:01:23,119 of in my head. And I think that's that makes sense, That makes 760 01:01:23,119 --> 01:01:27,480 sense to me. Yeah, Andy, we hope to have you back when 761 01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,880 the Department of Justice indicts Ronda Santis for fraud because his cowboy boot heels give 762 01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,760 the appearance of him being taller than he is, and this was a means 763 01:01:37,760 --> 01:01:40,000 of defrauding the electorate going forward. I mean, I'm sure they got there 764 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:43,920 working up something. Anyway, great to talk to you and hear from you, 765 01:01:43,920 --> 01:01:45,199 and it'll listen to you and get the analysis. As ever, we'll 766 01:01:45,239 --> 01:01:50,559 see you again, and we'll see you on television and scattered about the podcasts 767 01:01:50,559 --> 01:01:52,320 and here and there. Thanks Andy, Thanks guys, thank you a weekend 768 01:01:52,559 --> 01:01:58,519 you too, We shouldn't we won't. Um. We might have one of 769 01:01:58,559 --> 01:02:00,519 those weekends where you have somebody over, but you, the listener, could 770 01:02:00,519 --> 01:02:05,599 possibly have somebody over that you don't know yet. What did Will Rogers say 771 01:02:05,599 --> 01:02:07,079 you never met a man he didn't like. Let's the other line, that 772 01:02:07,760 --> 01:02:10,760 stranger is just a friend you haven't met yet, or some sort of you 773 01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:15,079 know. I know they're both nauseating that line, I've never met a man 774 01:02:15,119 --> 01:02:16,440 I didn't like. I think it's one of the most dishonest things I've ever 775 01:02:16,519 --> 01:02:22,960 been a square, just bs. But anyway, now and then you do 776 01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:27,000 meet new people and you realize, wow, it's good to meet new people. 777 01:02:27,679 --> 01:02:30,280 And that's where Rob Long comes in. Not that Rob's going to show 778 01:02:30,320 --> 01:02:32,079 up at your door, but he's gonna tell you how you can have people 779 01:02:32,079 --> 01:02:35,800 show up at your or go down well, you know, James, of 780 01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,199 course, you know Ricochet is online club. You could join Ricochet. You 781 01:02:39,199 --> 01:02:42,840 can mix it up in the comments, mix it up on the member feet 782 01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:45,199 and in the member's lodge, right, but you can also do we alls 783 01:02:45,199 --> 01:02:50,800 do meetups irl. Meetups in real life is the people say um and the 784 01:02:50,880 --> 01:02:53,960 summer now is coming to a close. Our last summer meetup is in Cookville, 785 01:02:53,960 --> 01:02:58,880 Tennessee Labor Day weekends. That's September one through four in Cookeville, Tennessee. 786 01:02:58,960 --> 01:03:00,880 So if you're in the area and you want something to do, the 787 01:03:00,920 --> 01:03:04,360 bunch of Ricochet members are getting together in Cookville. That is always a good 788 01:03:04,400 --> 01:03:07,960 time. I highly recommend the meetups if you would like to. If you're 789 01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:09,239 a member, I want to go, go. If you're not a member 790 01:03:09,239 --> 01:03:13,559 and you want to go join Ricochet and then go. If you are a 791 01:03:13,559 --> 01:03:15,679 member or non member and you're like, yeah, I don't know, Cookdills 792 01:03:15,719 --> 01:03:17,199 far away or Labor Day we can have booked and you want to set something 793 01:03:17,280 --> 01:03:20,880 up for the autumn, here's what you do. You go to ricochet at 794 01:03:20,960 --> 01:03:23,599 com you join, You go to the member feed that's a member's room, 795 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:28,039 and you say, hey, how about a meetup here at on this date, 796 01:03:28,079 --> 01:03:36,320 and I guarantee you Ricochet members will join you. That's fun. I 797 01:03:36,360 --> 01:03:38,880 wish there was one here soon too. I'm just I'm sorry. I was 798 01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:42,280 stunned for a second there when you said that summer is drawing to a close. 799 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:45,400 There's more horrifying words, right, you know what that means, James, 800 01:03:45,679 --> 01:03:50,199 it means NFL season is approaching. Yeah, there's that, There's that, 801 01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:52,360 there's that, and we can we can we can look for that. 802 01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,239 There's all these compensations and awards that the life gives to us. Charles, 803 01:03:55,239 --> 01:04:02,280 you said that you saw Um Oppenheimer, Rob. I assume you've seen them 804 01:04:02,280 --> 01:04:09,719 both. I've I saw Barbie instead of Openheimer, and I was wondering if 805 01:04:09,840 --> 01:04:14,280 if either of you had seen Barbie, and apparently Rob hasn't. It's an 806 01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:16,800 important movie to understand, the night guy. So Charles, you're rushing off 807 01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:20,440 to it soon, right, Sure, you're painting your golf cart pink and 808 01:04:20,519 --> 01:04:26,559 heading off to the to the I take it. No, well you know 809 01:04:26,599 --> 01:04:30,039 what, guys, James, I was waiting to see where you were going 810 01:04:30,039 --> 01:04:35,800 with that too. No, the sort of thing. Um, but you 811 01:04:35,840 --> 01:04:40,840 want to now, even when it when it shows up on streaming some day, 812 01:04:41,239 --> 01:04:46,159 you you ought to watch it. Um. I think it's been foundly 813 01:04:46,239 --> 01:04:49,800 misunderstood and mis characterized by a lot of people in the right online. I 814 01:04:49,840 --> 01:04:53,880 think in one sense the movie is half an inch deep. But there is 815 01:04:54,079 --> 01:04:58,519 so much there that you can ascribe to various schools of thought and interpretation and 816 01:04:58,559 --> 01:05:01,719 as such, because it's made by fairly smart people, it's an interesting cultural 817 01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,280 artifact. And whether or not you think it is the wokest thing in the 818 01:05:05,320 --> 01:05:11,199 world or you realize that it's got a lot more nuance built into it, 819 01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:17,599 the opening scenes of this movie are something that is more anthropologically profound than ninety 820 01:05:17,679 --> 01:05:20,800 nine percent of the stuff that that was turned out in the year twenty twenty 821 01:05:20,800 --> 01:05:24,159 three, and not in a good way, my dear, And that's what 822 01:05:24,280 --> 01:05:27,719 makes it interesting to me. So what you're telling me is that for the 823 01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:31,719 good of my own intellect and edification, I have to watch Margot Robbie for 824 01:05:31,760 --> 01:05:38,360 two hours. Yeah, you are willing to do that for your country, 825 01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:41,519 than good for you. It is, yes, it is not exact. 826 01:05:41,599 --> 01:05:45,639 It is not it's odd to say that a movie with Margot Robbie in it 827 01:05:45,719 --> 01:05:46,920 for two hours is actually hard on the eyes. But it is sort of 828 01:05:46,960 --> 01:05:49,599 hard on the eyes, just simply because of the color palette and the rest 829 01:05:49,639 --> 01:05:56,320 of it. But to dismiss this as just some this this woke screed, 830 01:05:56,480 --> 01:06:00,440 I think is a big mistake. No, I haven't done that. I 831 01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:02,639 just didn't have a great desire to see it because I'm not. I have 832 01:06:02,880 --> 01:06:09,920 never been in a great Bobby Target. Well, this is the brilliance of 833 01:06:09,920 --> 01:06:12,920 it. I mean, here's something that has been derided for decades by feminist 834 01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,320 as being the epitome of the of the Chauvin's patriarchal system that keeps to women 835 01:06:15,360 --> 01:06:17,519 it down and reduces them to their image. And all of a sudden, 836 01:06:17,599 --> 01:06:25,039 now Barbie's hot, and in an ironic postmodern sort of fashion, it's okay 837 01:06:25,079 --> 01:06:29,360 to embrace Barbie and everything connected with it. It's fast. I mean, 838 01:06:29,360 --> 01:06:31,360 it's a great job by Mattel of repositioning themselves. And you know, I 839 01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:36,639 look forward to the Jenga movie that's inevitably gonna follow. Yeah, there's a 840 01:06:36,679 --> 01:06:42,840 polypockets move. As a dad who went through who saw these phases move through 841 01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:45,639 our own household and has his own relationship with Barbie, you know, I 842 01:06:45,719 --> 01:06:49,679 gotta find the the hot Barbie this year for Christmas. I have to get 843 01:06:49,840 --> 01:06:54,119 the game. I have to hear that song again. I have a different 844 01:06:54,119 --> 01:06:57,880 relationship with it, and maybe that's why I was curious. But no, 845 01:06:59,280 --> 01:07:02,039 don't put it this way. If I had to say how I would want 846 01:07:02,039 --> 01:07:06,119 to spend three hours on a beautiful summer evening. I think Barbie and Margot 847 01:07:06,239 --> 01:07:11,679 Robbie would be preferable to Oppenheimer in Imax, although I do want to see 848 01:07:11,719 --> 01:07:15,400 that. Yeah, I'm going to see it too. Well, there we 849 01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:18,679 have it, there's your We we dig deep here when it comes to our 850 01:07:18,679 --> 01:07:23,800 cultural reviews, you know, not that mainstream stuff. Now we're talking Barbie 851 01:07:23,000 --> 01:07:28,159 and Barbie in the Bomb, which is apparently the only movies that exist right 852 01:07:28,199 --> 01:07:30,000 now at this day. Squeezing out mission impossible. It seems to be in 853 01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:32,639 the public imagination, which is supposed to be something of a pity. Since 854 01:07:32,679 --> 01:07:38,199 Tom Cruise our last, our last action hero, our last, the last 855 01:07:38,280 --> 01:07:43,000 guy who seems really invested in a molecular level in the art of cinema. 856 01:07:43,039 --> 01:07:45,000 Who would have thought that back in the days of a risky business. Anyway, 857 01:07:45,159 --> 01:07:50,239 risky business would be you not following through the promise we made at the 858 01:07:50,280 --> 01:07:53,760 top of the show where you go and join Ricochet. Well you forgot you 859 01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:57,800 made that promise. We did, We heard you. And also you promised, 860 01:07:57,840 --> 01:08:02,039 you promised to go to Apple where the podcasts are and give us five 861 01:08:02,079 --> 01:08:06,039 stars, because that would be great, wouldn't sure. But you know, 862 01:08:06,239 --> 01:08:10,920 here's the thing. Ricochet five point was right around the corner, and you're 863 01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:13,679 gonna love it so much that you don't want to comment over and over and 864 01:08:13,719 --> 01:08:16,079 over about the magnificence of the design and the brilliancy of the men who have 865 01:08:16,640 --> 01:08:21,640 of the people I'm sorry, who have Steward steward this into being, so 866 01:08:21,720 --> 01:08:25,359 you got to join. You gotta have a little skin in the game. 867 01:08:25,359 --> 01:08:28,039 As Rob said so many episodes ago, six hundred and fifty two, I 868 01:08:28,079 --> 01:08:31,159 believe in order to comment on Ricochet, that's what keeps it sane and civil. 869 01:08:31,239 --> 01:08:35,119 At the Code of Conduct moderators then a group of people who are really 870 01:08:35,119 --> 01:08:41,479 interested in having intelligent conversations and some fun nonsense as well. Gennlemana wish you 871 01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:45,039 a good weekend, and Charles, it's been great as ever. Rob regards 872 01:08:45,039 --> 01:08:49,079 to Gotham. We'll see everybody in the comments at Ricochet four point zero, 873 01:08:49,199 --> 01:08:56,039 but soon to be five next week. Next week, Fellas Ricochet joined the conversation