WEBVTT 1 00:00:05.719 --> 00:00:10.279 Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Ruby Grogs podcast. This week, 2 00:00:10.279 --> 00:00:15.480 I'm talking to Mike McQuaid. Mike is one of the maintainers of Homebrew. 3 00:00:16.679 --> 00:00:19.480 If you have a Mac, you know, and if you don't have 4 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:25.440 a Mac then we'll get into what it is. But yeah, cool stuff 5 00:00:26.079 --> 00:00:29.600 calling in from Scotland. Is that what you said? Yep, Edinburgh, 6 00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:34.520 Scotland. Very cool. I have some Scottish in me. I have a 7 00:00:34.520 --> 00:00:39.079 whole bunch of other European countries in me too. But anyway, do you 8 00:00:39.159 --> 00:00:41.600 want to just jump in and let us know what else people ought to know 9 00:00:41.600 --> 00:00:45.679 about you before we get rolling? Hey, folks, this is Charles Maxwell. 10 00:00:45.719 --> 00:00:49.240 I've been talking to a bunch of people that want to update their resume 11 00:00:49.439 --> 00:00:52.920 and find a better job, and I figure, well, why not just 12 00:00:52.920 --> 00:00:56.600 share my resume? So you if you go to topendevs dot com slash resume, 13 00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:00.920 enter your name and email address, then you get a copy of the 14 00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:06.000 resume that I use, that I've used through freelancing through most of my career, 15 00:01:06.400 --> 00:01:08.319 as I've kind of refined it and tweaked it to get me the jobs 16 00:01:08.319 --> 00:01:12.079 that I want. Like I said, top endevs dot com slash resume. 17 00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:15.519 We'll get you that and you can just kind of use the formatting. It 18 00:01:15.599 --> 00:01:19.480 comes in word and pages formats and you can just fill it in from there. 19 00:01:22.840 --> 00:01:26.920 Sure. So yeah, as Charles as I said, I'm Mike McQuaid. 20 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:30.920 He said my name perfectly, which is not always something you can rely 21 00:01:30.000 --> 00:01:37.439 on, which is very nice. So I'm currently working on Humbrew in my 22 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.719 you know, volunteer life, spare time sort of stuff. Worked on it 23 00:01:42.760 --> 00:01:45.719 for fifteen years since two thousand and nine I got involved. I think I 24 00:01:45.760 --> 00:01:48.799 was the third person to get a commit bit on the project, and I'm 25 00:01:49.120 --> 00:01:51.920 oh, wow, I'm still standing after that time. And I'm like the 26 00:01:51.920 --> 00:01:56.599 project leader, which basically means I'm sort of an elected like figurehead, slash 27 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:00.200 tech lead, etc. So yeah, and my kind of outside of my 28 00:02:00.239 --> 00:02:05.760 Homebrew life work wise, I'm working right now start a company last year with 29 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:09.960 some ex Getthulb people called work Brew, where we're working on commercializing some stuff 30 00:02:09.960 --> 00:02:15.599 around humbrew and basically building the features that kind of small, medium large companies 31 00:02:15.680 --> 00:02:19.039 need that Homebrew does not have so that they can work in the way they 32 00:02:19.080 --> 00:02:23.199 want to work while Homebrew placed nicely with that and then before I was working 33 00:02:23.199 --> 00:02:27.360 here. I worked at GitHub for ten years. I left as like a 34 00:02:27.400 --> 00:02:30.599 principal engineer last year, and I was bounced all over the place there, 35 00:02:30.639 --> 00:02:36.039 but particularly I guess focused on developer experience stuff and open source scratching my own 36 00:02:36.039 --> 00:02:40.479 itches. Basically very cool. Yeah, I've known a few people who've worked 37 00:02:40.520 --> 00:02:46.400 at GitHub. I also remember way back in the day when Chris and Tom 38 00:02:46.439 --> 00:02:50.759 put their heads together and started the thing as kind of a project in a 39 00:02:50.840 --> 00:02:53.560 restaurant or something, And yeah, it's kind of funny to look at where 40 00:02:53.680 --> 00:03:00.599 it all wound up, with Microsoft buying them and everything else. Just kind 41 00:03:00.599 --> 00:03:02.680 of start with the fundamentals here. I did kind of mention that if you 42 00:03:02.680 --> 00:03:05.840 have a Mac, you probably know what Homebrew is, but do you want 43 00:03:05.879 --> 00:03:08.800 to give people a rundown of what it is? Sure? So Homebrew is 44 00:03:08.879 --> 00:03:15.520 a open source package manager for Mac os primarily and also increasingly Linux as well. 45 00:03:15.520 --> 00:03:16.840 Interestingly, oh, really could talk a little bit more about that layer, 46 00:03:16.840 --> 00:03:22.240 because that's sometimes confusing to particularly Mac people. But yeah, so basically, 47 00:03:22.280 --> 00:03:25.240 if you you write brew, which is the kind of shorthand Brew install, 48 00:03:25.439 --> 00:03:30.520 and then pretty much any application you would want, and you can install 49 00:03:30.520 --> 00:03:36.400 that on your Mac, So it's I believe them kind of we have some 50 00:03:36.680 --> 00:03:40.039 degree of evidence that you know, about thirty million people and or bots make 51 00:03:40.120 --> 00:03:45.039 use of Homebrew, and it's yeah, in our opinion, like the best 52 00:03:45.080 --> 00:03:46.879 way of installing open source software your Mac. Well you may not know as 53 00:03:46.919 --> 00:03:51.639 well. With Homebrew, it started off just being like building everything from source 54 00:03:51.719 --> 00:03:54.080 package manager for like open source tools, w get, kurl, whatever, 55 00:03:54.439 --> 00:03:59.560 whereas nowadays you can also install like upstream binaries, so like say like Chrome, 56 00:03:59.639 --> 00:04:03.159 which I'm a diehard Safari guy, so I'm streaming in Chrome today because 57 00:04:03.800 --> 00:04:09.199 I had my usual sadness of learning the website didn't support Safari, so I 58 00:04:09.240 --> 00:04:12.599 find up Chrome, but I install Chrome by just typing brew and still google 59 00:04:12.639 --> 00:04:15.560 Chrome, and then it sticks everything in my applications folder, sets it all 60 00:04:15.639 --> 00:04:17.839 up and all that type of things. And there's a long taiale of like 61 00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:23.120 ecosystems where you can have like brew Bundle is another favorite of mind, where 62 00:04:23.120 --> 00:04:27.199 you can have like declarative ways of telling him Brew what to do and all 63 00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.160 this type of stuff. So yeah, that's basically and my my non tech 64 00:04:30.199 --> 00:04:35.519 expansion of rom brew is like a app store for open source in your terminal, 65 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:42.839 right, Yeah, you just brew install whatever you want, and off 66 00:04:42.839 --> 00:04:46.600 it runs and does its thing. In fact, a lot of tutorials if 67 00:04:46.639 --> 00:04:51.680 you need a particular piece of the puzzle, a lot of the gems and 68 00:04:51.720 --> 00:04:56.199 things that I use in Ruby, it'll it'll basically say, oh, Brew 69 00:04:56.240 --> 00:04:59.399 install your blah blah blah, right, and then and then you can run 70 00:04:59.439 --> 00:05:01.839 from there. So yeah, it's definitely something that I use and I reach 71 00:05:01.920 --> 00:05:05.279 for and I don't even think anymore that, oh gee, somebody actually made 72 00:05:05.360 --> 00:05:13.319 this, right, It's just part of life. So anyway, So yeah, 73 00:05:13.319 --> 00:05:15.720 so I'm kind of curious as we kind of get into this a little 74 00:05:15.759 --> 00:05:18.040 bit, and there's a lot to talk about, right because I do want 75 00:05:18.040 --> 00:05:23.199 to get into work Crew and what that's all about. But before we do 76 00:05:23.279 --> 00:05:27.360 that, for those of us who have used homebrew for a long time and 77 00:05:27.399 --> 00:05:31.879 are excited to see, you know, maybe where it came from and what 78 00:05:32.040 --> 00:05:36.759 all is entailed in it, where did it come from? You said you 79 00:05:36.800 --> 00:05:41.199 weren't in it from necessarily the beginning, but you've got to commitment pretty early. 80 00:05:41.279 --> 00:05:44.519 So yeah, it was sorry there. I think I got involved about 81 00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:49.160 you know, maybe started using it four or five months and started contributing pretty 82 00:05:49.160 --> 00:05:53.120 short after when it was prostrated. It was made in two thousand and nine 83 00:05:53.639 --> 00:05:56.800 by a guy called Max Howell, who was in one that I think he 84 00:05:56.839 --> 00:06:00.759 was working at last FM at the time, the blast from the past that 85 00:06:00.040 --> 00:06:04.600 probably still exists but not as widely used as it once was. So he 86 00:06:05.360 --> 00:06:11.199 had, I have kids younger than Homebrew, I'm sure. Yeah, I 87 00:06:11.519 --> 00:06:15.279 also have because younger than Humbird's. And it's distressing when you meet kids who 88 00:06:15.319 --> 00:06:19.680 are the same age as he Brew and how articulate they are. So he 89 00:06:19.920 --> 00:06:24.240 basically had played around with all the package managers on the Mac at the time. 90 00:06:24.319 --> 00:06:27.759 You know, there was mac Ports and Think and oh yeah, I 91 00:06:27.839 --> 00:06:31.279 remember those, yeah coming what the other one was bats? But yeah, 92 00:06:31.360 --> 00:06:35.040 yeah, mac Ports is probably the dominant one. And he didn't have a 93 00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:40.000 huge amount of like good time using mac Ports, felt that it kind of 94 00:06:40.079 --> 00:06:43.839 did too much and he didn't like the approach, so he built Homebrew, 95 00:06:43.839 --> 00:06:48.399 which was this kind of beer themed package manager. And yeah, and the 96 00:06:48.439 --> 00:06:53.240 other interesting model is still called casks. Yeah, the packages are still called 97 00:06:53.319 --> 00:06:56.920 like formulating casks, and it's still got all the beer themes all over the 98 00:06:56.959 --> 00:06:59.519 place. But one of the interesting things he did as well is it was, 99 00:06:59.639 --> 00:07:01.480 you know, this was I come remember you probably know Chile's actually what 100 00:07:01.920 --> 00:07:05.040 your GitHub open to the public, but certainly this was in two thousand and 101 00:07:05.120 --> 00:07:10.399 nine, so GitHub was like relatively new. I'm pretty sure when humbrew first 102 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:15.720 got created, the poor request didn't exist yet. But Max from the outset 103 00:07:15.800 --> 00:07:17.839 had decided like, hey, I want to make this thing, but I 104 00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.439 can't maintain thousands of packages all by myself, so I'm going to have to 105 00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:26.319 kind of open this up and make it a community effort to do that. 106 00:07:27.240 --> 00:07:30.079 So yeah, so that's basically what happened, and more and more people kind 107 00:07:30.079 --> 00:07:31.920 of particularly in the Ruby community, Like I think the Ruby community was one 108 00:07:31.959 --> 00:07:35.800 of the early adopters of hombrew because humbrew itself was written and still it is 109 00:07:35.879 --> 00:07:40.959 primarily within Ruby, and yeah, basically just it kind of grew, more 110 00:07:41.000 --> 00:07:44.959 people got involved, more people contributed, and then you know, people who 111 00:07:45.000 --> 00:07:47.120 contributed lots and ended up doing a bunch of reviews and stuff like that. 112 00:07:47.439 --> 00:07:51.240 I guess folks like me ended up kind of becoming maintainers, and then the 113 00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:55.680 project's just sort of grown and growing over the time. So yeah, it 114 00:07:55.720 --> 00:07:58.839 went from originally like just Max in two thousand and nine to nowadays, we've 115 00:07:58.839 --> 00:08:03.600 got I think thirty something maintainerous. We've probably had like fifty total old time, 116 00:08:03.639 --> 00:08:07.439 and then we've had like over ten thousand people will contribute to some part 117 00:08:07.439 --> 00:08:16.240 of the project at least once. Very cool. So I have so many 118 00:08:16.360 --> 00:08:22.000 questions. So one of them is is there there are kind of a bunch 119 00:08:22.000 --> 00:08:26.120 of different pieces to this. Right, you've got the command line interface, 120 00:08:26.199 --> 00:08:28.240 and then you've got the hey, go grab the thing, and how do 121 00:08:28.279 --> 00:08:31.240 I know how to build the thing? And how do I know where to 122 00:08:31.279 --> 00:08:35.639 put the thing? And how do we write? And so let's just start 123 00:08:35.639 --> 00:08:41.759 with the command line interface. So what tools did you start out working with? 124 00:08:41.879 --> 00:08:48.120 And has that changed over the last what thirteen fourteen years? Yeah? 125 00:08:48.200 --> 00:08:56.039 Yeah, So humbrew was written originally exclusively in Ruby pretty much, and it's 126 00:08:56.039 --> 00:09:01.399 still primarily Ruby, like the Irony in homebrew Land, compared to maybe other 127 00:09:01.440 --> 00:09:07.559 bits of Ruby where because we're like a CLI, because we're we are installing 128 00:09:07.600 --> 00:09:09.879 a bunch of stuff related to compilers and things, but we can't rely on 129 00:09:09.919 --> 00:09:13.600 the necessarily being there, and we haven't wanted to ship native binaries for the 130 00:09:13.639 --> 00:09:18.960 application itself. When we want to make things faster in Homebrew. Often they 131 00:09:18.000 --> 00:09:22.279 are ported from Ruby to Bash. So an increasing amount of the kind of 132 00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:28.039 very performance intensive bits of Homebrew, like the bits where like you want to 133 00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:30.919 be able to run a command and have a response instantly, or you want 134 00:09:30.960 --> 00:09:35.360 to be able to have a command that you can run every time you open 135 00:09:35.399 --> 00:09:37.240 your shell and it not have too much overhead. So some of that, 136 00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:41.679 more of that stuff is kind of ported to like Bash and like the updaters 137 00:09:41.720 --> 00:09:46.799 in Bash. And because Homebrew installs its own Ruby nowadays, because you know, 138 00:09:46.840 --> 00:09:50.399 we originally used just the whatever rubyship with mac os and that worked all 139 00:09:50.519 --> 00:09:54.279 right for a pretty long time. But I think last year we were speaking 140 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.840 to our kind of Apple contacts and they theoretically deprecated Ruby. I think a 141 00:09:58.840 --> 00:10:01.320 few years ago in the system said hey, can we get a newer one? 142 00:10:01.799 --> 00:10:03.799 And it's still there. It is still there, but it's a two 143 00:10:03.840 --> 00:10:07.919 point six. Yeah, it's not a current version. Yeah, pretty ancient. 144 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:11.759 And so yeah, so we ended up we were rolling our own for 145 00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.279 really old Macwest versions and for Linux anyway. So we're just like, well 146 00:10:16.320 --> 00:10:20.399 we can roll around for everyone now and just make it mandatory. And I 147 00:10:20.399 --> 00:10:22.960 think it's Ruby three point one or two or something like that, uh huh 148 00:10:24.240 --> 00:10:26.559 nowadays, and yeah, and that's a much nicer experience for us and makes 149 00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:30.519 everything a bit faster and snappier and stuff. So yeah, So the main 150 00:10:30.519 --> 00:10:33.600 package manager is all in Ruby, and then we have I guess two main 151 00:10:33.759 --> 00:10:37.200 repositories. So there's like homebrew Brew we would call it, which is like 152 00:10:37.240 --> 00:10:41.039 you do com slasher and brew slash Brew. That's the package manager and that's 153 00:10:41.440 --> 00:10:46.440 that's my personal like favorite happy place to live and I kind of review pretty 154 00:10:46.519 --> 00:10:52.080 much every pr that is in that repo. And then there's like Homebrew Slash 155 00:10:52.600 --> 00:10:56.720 Homebrew Core and so that's like the core formula, like basically everything in there 156 00:10:56.759 --> 00:11:00.360 has to be open source and there's like six thousand packages or whatever there, 157 00:11:00.840 --> 00:11:03.639 and that again is I think one of the reasons why Ruby was such a 158 00:11:03.639 --> 00:11:07.679 good pick originally, like is that the like the the files that kind of 159 00:11:07.679 --> 00:11:13.720 describe how to install something are known as formula. And again going down the 160 00:11:13.720 --> 00:11:18.840 beer theme, and that is like a really nice Ruby DSL that kind of 161 00:11:18.279 --> 00:11:22.360 is I would say fairly if you if you kind of have a basic understanding 162 00:11:22.360 --> 00:11:26.360 of almost like you know, configure, make, make instore, like how 163 00:11:26.799 --> 00:11:30.279 Unix programs are generally built like it's you can read through that, and it's 164 00:11:30.279 --> 00:11:35.720 pretty obvious how to get started. And if you've ever had the misfortune of 165 00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:41.159 having to try and package like RPMs or like dB in packages or whatever, 166 00:11:41.200 --> 00:11:45.799 which are very, very robust, arguably better than Homebrew once they're there, 167 00:11:45.840 --> 00:11:50.919 But like the actual just process of going from nothing to something that works is 168 00:11:50.080 --> 00:11:56.600 fairly time consuming in my experience, whereas in Homebrew you can just you know, 169 00:11:56.840 --> 00:12:01.039 like make a fairly short little thing and then yourself up and running and 170 00:12:01.039 --> 00:12:05.440 storing applications in a pretty quick time. And I think that's why it's grown 171 00:12:05.480 --> 00:12:09.679 and stayed big, because it's quite easy for people to contribute and modify and 172 00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:11.799 change things, and it's just you know, you can do it all on 173 00:12:11.879 --> 00:12:16.399 get help nowadays. Right. So, when I was in college, I 174 00:12:16.039 --> 00:12:22.039 was a systems administrator on mostly red Hat systems, and so I've written some 175 00:12:22.080 --> 00:12:28.799 fugly pass scripts to do all kinds of things, and I've also done RPM 176 00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:31.519 packaging and you know later on I yeah, there are a few things that 177 00:12:31.559 --> 00:12:35.519 I've had to fiddle with and maybe put into a Debian package, and yeah, 178 00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:39.919 that is not a fun process. And then you just kind of have 179 00:12:39.000 --> 00:12:43.320 to put it out there and then pull it in with your package manager or 180 00:12:43.360 --> 00:12:48.480 with some utility that can pull it in and unpack it and do whatever it 181 00:12:48.519 --> 00:12:52.720 does. And oh man, yeah, Homebrew is pretty nice that way. 182 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:58.159 Also done plenty of stuff with Make, which is it's a powerful utility, 183 00:12:58.200 --> 00:13:03.600 but it's a little arcane sometime, and so yeah, I definitely feel you 184 00:13:03.679 --> 00:13:09.720 there. So yeah, so it's all written in Ruby. Is it pretty 185 00:13:09.919 --> 00:13:13.120 Is it pretty simple? Or are there are a lot of edge cases you 186 00:13:13.159 --> 00:13:16.639 have to handle or is that mostly in the packages or the formula or whatever. 187 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:18.679 Yeah, a bit of both. Like, I mean, there's I 188 00:13:18.720 --> 00:13:22.120 think with stuff like humbrew is like a really long tail. So I guess 189 00:13:22.360 --> 00:13:26.600 with the stuff that Max created in the first place, you know, I 190 00:13:26.799 --> 00:13:31.399 can't know how many packages he's almost like shipped with to begin with, but 191 00:13:31.039 --> 00:13:35.879 it's one of those things where if you have one hundred packages, everything seems 192 00:13:35.879 --> 00:13:37.120 pretty simple. If you have a thousand, things start to get a bit 193 00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:39.840 more complex, and then right you start getting up to like five six thousand, 194 00:13:39.879 --> 00:13:45.360 it's like it gets really messy. All the weird and wonderful things that 195 00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.600 things do. And as a packager of software. You have this kind of 196 00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:56.279 weird decision framework where there's often the way the people who write there the software 197 00:13:56.279 --> 00:14:00.320 originally, I guess we would refer to them as upstream. The way they 198 00:14:00.559 --> 00:14:03.200 want to release their software is not necessarily the way your users want to consume 199 00:14:03.240 --> 00:14:07.399 the software, or the way you want to be keeping it up to date 200 00:14:07.480 --> 00:14:09.759 and stuff. So you're trying to sort of balance these things. And yeah, 201 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:13.240 I mean the thing I've enjoyed about it personally is like I've always been 202 00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:16.639 a bit of a kind of generalist software ride, so like with Ruby, 203 00:14:16.639 --> 00:14:20.480 particularly when I was just doing a lot more of the packaging stuff than I 204 00:14:20.519 --> 00:14:22.600 do probably today. You know, in a given week, you could be 205 00:14:22.639 --> 00:14:28.000 writing Ruby, c C plus plus Haskell, like having to play around with 206 00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.200 like ten to twenty different languages and frameworks and you kind of develop a sense 207 00:14:31.240 --> 00:14:35.279 of how this stuff plays might see together, and what the what the edge 208 00:14:35.279 --> 00:14:37.960 cases are and what you need to watch out for and everything like that. 209 00:14:39.000 --> 00:14:45.360 But yeah, I mean, software is a wily beast, and packaging it's 210 00:14:45.399 --> 00:14:52.440 no less so interesting. So yeah, so what are your dependencies? I 211 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.480 know that you have to have the ex Code build tools installed. Does it 212 00:14:56.600 --> 00:15:01.960 pull in the rest of them for me. Yeah, basically that's on a 213 00:15:01.039 --> 00:15:05.720 map, like that's all you need. You just need to have the excode 214 00:15:05.759 --> 00:15:11.000 like utilities installed. And then even then, like we've we've sort of tried 215 00:15:11.039 --> 00:15:13.960 in the past, like sometimes to make them not required, but it's it's 216 00:15:15.000 --> 00:15:18.679 pretty hard, given like the state of things in Apple Land, to go 217 00:15:18.759 --> 00:15:22.120 completely without that. And you know, every few years Apple introduced some new 218 00:15:22.159 --> 00:15:26.639 requirement which requires using a CLI that only they provide, and there's no open 219 00:15:26.639 --> 00:15:30.639 source version, and we're kind of back to square one there. So yeah, 220 00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.080 basically just the Explode Comme online tools are the only dependency. And then 221 00:15:33.679 --> 00:15:37.639 if you're running Homebone Linux, there's a few other bits and pieces there. 222 00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:41.720 But the bigger one I mentioned before like Ruby, like we we build our 223 00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:46.480 own kind of statically compile with Ruby, which you can just use anywhere that's 224 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.799 altered install for you and everything. So I guess some of the something else 225 00:15:50.840 --> 00:15:54.960 that I'm wondering is are you taking advantage of some of the newer features in 226 00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:58.960 Ruby. So for example, you've got wygit right that speeds things up quite 227 00:16:00.080 --> 00:16:03.519 a bit, or the other one is like fiber scheduler and stuff like that 228 00:16:03.519 --> 00:16:07.559 which gives you some level of currency. Are you digging into any of that 229 00:16:07.720 --> 00:16:11.720 or is that kind of upcoming when you get to it. Yeah, so 230 00:16:11.759 --> 00:16:15.000 we've we've played around with like bits and pieces around there. Like so it's 231 00:16:15.120 --> 00:16:18.799 it's funny because humbrew is very much you know that there's been this kind of 232 00:16:18.840 --> 00:16:22.080 meme in the Ruby community for a while that like people get sad that like 233 00:16:22.840 --> 00:16:29.000 Ruby is associated almost entirely with rails most of the time, and like Homebrew 234 00:16:29.240 --> 00:16:32.600 is pretty much as far away from that as you can get, right, 235 00:16:32.679 --> 00:16:34.240 you know, we're not we're not even a web app. We're not attached 236 00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:40.840 to a database like you're running a CLI. So it's funny. I guess 237 00:16:41.159 --> 00:16:44.919 a lot of the places from where the jets come from like never say never, 238 00:16:45.000 --> 00:16:47.639 like it may well make things faster in the future, but right now, 239 00:16:47.679 --> 00:16:49.279 all of the kind of jet, different jets we've tried, and the 240 00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:53.360 different jeits sessions we've tried, Like just the way Homebrew runs, even if 241 00:16:53.399 --> 00:16:59.960 it's doing a relatively complex task like a the run times are relatively short. 242 00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:03.919 Access only sticks around for you know, at most probably a few minutes, 243 00:17:03.680 --> 00:17:07.640 but then a lot of the time it's just around for a second, and 244 00:17:08.640 --> 00:17:14.319 there's new data every time, so you can't necessarily cash things super hard. 245 00:17:14.920 --> 00:17:19.240 And like basically everywhere where humebrew is slow, and like that's the most common 246 00:17:19.240 --> 00:17:23.720 complaint about Homebrew is that Homebrew is slow. That almost everywhere it's slow, 247 00:17:23.759 --> 00:17:30.680 it's slow because of the like io basically like we're either down or something on 248 00:17:30.759 --> 00:17:33.720 the internet, we're write something to your hard drive, we're reading something from 249 00:17:33.759 --> 00:17:36.160 your hard drive, whatever, and we can maybe do a little bit more 250 00:17:36.160 --> 00:17:41.200 paralyzation. But again, like in the past, there's been times where I've 251 00:17:41.440 --> 00:17:45.359 and again some of this may be changing from spinning platters to SSDs or whatever, 252 00:17:45.400 --> 00:17:48.839 there's been times where I've ripped out paralyzed code that we have in Homebrew, 253 00:17:49.079 --> 00:17:53.519 and it's actually dramatically faster running to really than it is parallel. So 254 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:57.279 yeah, I mean, we we definitely have a decent amount of like profiling 255 00:17:57.319 --> 00:18:02.359 tools like we rely on, but basically everything you would expect and wouldby land 256 00:18:02.400 --> 00:18:06.200 stack, corporal, all these types of things. But yeah, but we 257 00:18:06.240 --> 00:18:10.200 do try and make things as possible we can, and thegits don't seem to 258 00:18:10.359 --> 00:18:14.319 really be helping much for us at the moment, but as I say maybe. 259 00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:21.240 Yeah, So I'm going to move on a little bit too. You 260 00:18:21.279 --> 00:18:26.279 mentioned Homebrew Core, so is that the list of casks in formulae, So 261 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:30.599 Homebrew Core is the list of formula. So we have Homebrew cosk and Homebrew 262 00:18:30.680 --> 00:18:37.519 Core. So the difference between casks and formula are Like Homebrew cosks used to 263 00:18:37.559 --> 00:18:40.680 be a certain like separate project, and that's the way. That's what you 264 00:18:40.799 --> 00:18:45.200 use for installing like binaries from other people, so like say like Google Chrome 265 00:18:45.519 --> 00:18:51.400 or one password or whatever, like if you're installing that basically if the project 266 00:18:51.799 --> 00:18:55.200 is whether it's a source or not, if the main way that that's delivered 267 00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.920 is like a pre compiled thing or like a dot app or DMG or don't 268 00:19:00.960 --> 00:19:03.880 or whatever, then you're installing that with humbrew cost like the essentially to the 269 00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:07.599 user, the interface is more or less the same nowadays, like you type 270 00:19:07.599 --> 00:19:11.680 bruinstall Google Chrome, but brewinstall w GET and it's it looks essentially transparent under 271 00:19:11.680 --> 00:19:15.720 the hoods. But right, yeah, they're they're managed in separate repos Like 272 00:19:15.039 --> 00:19:21.559 this was previously like a requirement due to some open source political nonsense. But 273 00:19:21.640 --> 00:19:25.839 yeah, so everything in Homebrew Core is open source software. And everything, 274 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:30.240 and Homebrew cost has a much looser requirement basically there and so yeah, they're 275 00:19:30.240 --> 00:19:33.480 managed separately. They have roughly the sammamulate packages, but then like again, 276 00:19:33.559 --> 00:19:37.480 the the DSL that's used are kind of slightly different. And hombrew cost is 277 00:19:37.480 --> 00:19:41.279 a bit more friendly to like propriet your software for guy's whatever. And then 278 00:19:41.359 --> 00:19:45.119 humbrew Core is a bit more friendly to like CLIs and is all open source 279 00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:52.279 software. I gotcha. So yeah, and see I didn't even know you 280 00:19:52.279 --> 00:19:56.039 could install some of those binaries with Homebrew because I always just go to the 281 00:19:56.079 --> 00:20:00.559 website and download it and run the installer and right open the DMG and drag 282 00:20:00.599 --> 00:20:07.279 it to applications or whatever. So that that's really interesting as you get into 283 00:20:07.319 --> 00:20:11.119 some of the open source stuff in particular, how do you know how to 284 00:20:11.160 --> 00:20:15.680 build it? Are you always looking for the make file or is there something 285 00:20:15.680 --> 00:20:19.119 else to it? Or so sometimes there's instructions in like a GitHub repo or 286 00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:23.680 whatever, or sometimes that's kind of you know, it's got to make file, 287 00:20:23.799 --> 00:20:27.920 and sometimes you just kind of try it out and figure it out and 288 00:20:29.839 --> 00:20:33.079 hopefully you can do the right thing. And then two years later the author 289 00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:34.160 pops up and they say, hey, you can building this totally wrong, 290 00:20:34.160 --> 00:20:37.680 and it's like, well, you didn't tell us what to do, dude, 291 00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.000 so like that's that's what's going to happen. So yeah, it's it's 292 00:20:41.000 --> 00:20:48.839 always a like there's definitely like a certain amount of kind of trends and traits 293 00:20:48.920 --> 00:20:53.400 of things that behave pretty similarly, and those projects are very nice to deal 294 00:20:53.440 --> 00:20:57.720 with. And then those projects who decide, hey, I'm gonna invent my 295 00:20:57.799 --> 00:21:03.200 own build system because all the other ones saw, and yeah, those are 296 00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:08.160 less fun to deal with. Right. So essentially, if I do a 297 00:21:08.200 --> 00:21:17.079 brew install on something like Google Chrome, it's just gonna pull the binary off 298 00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:22.440 of wherever and it's going to put it wherever it goes and make sure it's 299 00:21:22.440 --> 00:21:23.960 in my path or whatever whatever it has to do in order for me to 300 00:21:25.000 --> 00:21:29.519 be able to run it, Yeah exactly. And then for a formula, 301 00:21:29.720 --> 00:21:33.519 it's going to go through some kind of build process and it sounds like you 302 00:21:33.559 --> 00:21:37.680 don't like auto detect the build script. You go and you look it up 303 00:21:37.720 --> 00:21:41.319 and you add that to the formula and tell it how to build it. 304 00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.559 Yeah exactly. So what we try and do like certain bits of what the 305 00:21:45.559 --> 00:21:48.880 in perfection for an end user for the you know, if you're running Brew 306 00:21:48.880 --> 00:21:52.240 and so on your machine, the experience is actually kind of similar because you're 307 00:21:52.440 --> 00:21:55.279 still downloading a binary most of the time. If you're installed hem brew on 308 00:21:55.319 --> 00:21:59.079 like a supported MACROS version, which is one of the last three, and 309 00:21:59.119 --> 00:22:03.359 they're kind of defaulting location right then what it will do is essentially, when 310 00:22:03.640 --> 00:22:08.119 someone submits a formula or an update to a formula, we have our poor 311 00:22:08.119 --> 00:22:11.519 request get hub, our continuous integration will go and like build that, and 312 00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:17.039 then when that works, we then have a process that kind of that build 313 00:22:17.319 --> 00:22:21.920 artifact gets uploaded. We call those like bottles, the binary packages and news 314 00:22:21.960 --> 00:22:26.359 like that. That was my probably favorite contribution to humbrew is doing that just 315 00:22:26.359 --> 00:22:30.400 for the amount of time, it's probably saved the world because before that, 316 00:22:30.480 --> 00:22:33.480 you know, if you wanted to install w get, it would take five 317 00:22:33.519 --> 00:22:38.480 minutes and everyone would essentially spend five minutes with their CPU fans, you know, 318 00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:42.119 in the days before addle Silicon like going at one hundred percent to spit 319 00:22:42.200 --> 00:22:47.200 out essentially the same binary at the end. So yeah, now we kind 320 00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:51.680 of have these binary packages and those are downloaded on your machine and installed and 321 00:22:51.720 --> 00:22:56.400 it's all nice quick and also it's way less error prone because with the compilation 322 00:22:56.440 --> 00:23:00.359 stuff, there's always things where you know, you have some brand them up 323 00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.240 utility on your machine and the build script de text that and then blows up 324 00:23:03.319 --> 00:23:07.920 or whatever. So you don't have those same issues with the binaries. And 325 00:23:10.440 --> 00:23:12.519 Hey, there, this is Charles Maxwood. I'm excited because I wanted to 326 00:23:12.599 --> 00:23:17.519 let you know about this thing that I pulled together that I had just I've 327 00:23:17.519 --> 00:23:21.400 been dying to have this for years and I never felt like I could, 328 00:23:21.680 --> 00:23:23.640 and then I just realized that there's no reason why I can't. So I'm 329 00:23:23.640 --> 00:23:27.480 putting together a book club and we're going to read development focused books, career 330 00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:30.920 books, you know, technical books, whatever. The first book that we're 331 00:23:30.920 --> 00:23:36.440 going to do is going to be Clean Architecture by Uncle Bob Martin. If 332 00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:38.839 you're not familiar with clean code or some of the other stuff that Bob has 333 00:23:38.920 --> 00:23:41.599 done, check that out. I've also talked to him on the Clean Coders 334 00:23:41.640 --> 00:23:45.079 podcast, which is on Top End Devs. But yeah, we're going to 335 00:23:45.160 --> 00:23:48.440 get on. He's going to show up to some of our meetings, and 336 00:23:48.440 --> 00:23:52.200 what I'm thinking is we'll probably have like five or six people part of the 337 00:23:52.240 --> 00:23:56.839 conversation along with Bob and I at the same time, and we'll just so 338 00:23:56.880 --> 00:24:00.319 somebody can come on, they can ask their question, and then we'll just 339 00:24:00.680 --> 00:24:03.680 rotate people through, so we'll mute one person, unmute another person when it's 340 00:24:03.720 --> 00:24:07.480 their turn to come on and be part of the discussion. So we'll do 341 00:24:07.559 --> 00:24:10.960 that for like an hour hour and a half. And then the other part 342 00:24:10.960 --> 00:24:14.519 of it that I'm putting together is just kind of a meet and greet gather 343 00:24:14.680 --> 00:24:19.680 area on Gathertown, And so after the meetup and the call, we we'll 344 00:24:19.680 --> 00:24:22.759 do as we'll all go over to gather Town and you can just log in, 345 00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:26.079 walk up to a group and have a conversation, and that way we 346 00:24:26.119 --> 00:24:30.000 can all kind of get to know each other and make friends and get to 347 00:24:30.039 --> 00:24:33.039 know people across the world. One thing that I'm finding is that, yeah, 348 00:24:33.079 --> 00:24:36.680 the meetups are starting to come back, but a lot of people don't 349 00:24:36.720 --> 00:24:38.480 have the opportunity to go to a meetup. And I really want to meet 350 00:24:38.480 --> 00:24:41.920 you guys and talk to you. So we're gonna put all that together. 351 00:24:41.000 --> 00:24:44.559 We'll all be part of that book club. You can go to topendevs dot 352 00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.720 com slash book Club to be part of it, and I'm looking forward to 353 00:24:47.759 --> 00:24:52.200 seeing you there. The first book club meeting will be in December, the 354 00:24:52.240 --> 00:24:56.799 beginning of December. We're starting the first week of December, and you'll also 355 00:24:56.799 --> 00:25:00.440 be part of the conversation about which book we do next. I have one 356 00:25:00.440 --> 00:25:03.480 in mind, but I want to see where everybody's at. So there you 357 00:25:03.519 --> 00:25:07.559 go. Right, So it looks at my setup and says, oh, 358 00:25:07.680 --> 00:25:11.440 I know that this bottle's compatible, So I'm just going to give you the 359 00:25:11.480 --> 00:25:17.079 binary instead of making you build it totally, and then if it can't for 360 00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:21.359 whatever reason, then it'll do the build step or the build process. Yeah. 361 00:25:21.559 --> 00:25:26.119 Yeah, and I mean that that essentially should never happen on you know, 362 00:25:26.200 --> 00:25:29.559 support market support right location. But yeah, if you're outside of that, 363 00:25:29.680 --> 00:25:33.599 then it will fall back to kind of building from source and when it 364 00:25:33.680 --> 00:25:37.559 can't do that otherwise. But yeah, but most most things, most of 365 00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:41.440 the time will always be you get like a binder factage for most users. 366 00:25:41.519 --> 00:25:48.279 So right, So just backing up a little bit because you mentioned Homebrew Core 367 00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.119 and Homebrew casks is kind of the places where these things live. Is Homebrew 368 00:25:53.160 --> 00:25:59.119 literally going to get hub and cloning it or like, how does it get 369 00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:03.359 that list. Yeah. Originally, well until very recently, yes, we 370 00:26:03.720 --> 00:26:08.519 did that to get hub. Yes. So the original updater for Homebrew was 371 00:26:08.599 --> 00:26:17.519 just it had one repo which was like mxcl which is Max How's GitHub mxcl 372 00:26:17.519 --> 00:26:19.279 slash Homebrew, and that would just be cloned in a directory and when you 373 00:26:19.359 --> 00:26:23.000 ran brew update to like you know, pull the latest packages, that was 374 00:26:23.079 --> 00:26:27.400 just doing a get pull basically. So over time that became more and more 375 00:26:27.440 --> 00:26:33.599 sophisticated. As Homebrew grew, that became slower and slower, Like even the 376 00:26:33.640 --> 00:26:37.599 no up operation of just doing a get fetch on that repo and it's telling 377 00:26:37.640 --> 00:26:40.880 you you don't need anything. That was taken like a couple of seconds. 378 00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:44.640 At the time, I worked at GitHub and I was getting annoyed with how 379 00:26:44.640 --> 00:26:48.960 slow it was, so I actually added a entry to the GitHub api to 380 00:26:48.279 --> 00:26:55.000 specifically to make Homebrews updates faster, and like it ended up being used by 381 00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:56.680 a bunch of other cases and package managers or whatever. Essentially, what you 382 00:26:56.720 --> 00:27:00.839 could do is you could just like pass the the hash that you have I 383 00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:07.079 have used that the the what's called the hp eat tag, So you could 384 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.640 pass the get commit hash as the eat tag and then you would get a 385 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.680 whatever I can vote it is the status code that says not modified essentially, 386 00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.759 so it would you do that, and it also wouldn't count against your GitHub 387 00:27:18.839 --> 00:27:22.960 rate limit because that was very heavily cash that operation. So that basically meant 388 00:27:22.960 --> 00:27:26.039 you could get a really really fast response for like gethub repers and we still 389 00:27:26.039 --> 00:27:32.319 rely on that API to this day. And yeah, so until very recently, 390 00:27:32.359 --> 00:27:33.680 like that was still how it was done and we would like fetched off 391 00:27:33.720 --> 00:27:37.680 or whatever, but over time that was getting slower and slower, and also 392 00:27:37.720 --> 00:27:41.519 like GitHub were like, you know, they were pretty nice about it all. 393 00:27:41.519 --> 00:27:45.640 But I think at some point I believe there was like a dedicated bare 394 00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:49.519 metal server that was essentially just twenty four to seven serving Homebrew core to people. 395 00:27:51.160 --> 00:27:53.960 Because also the way that that that reaper had super long history loads or 396 00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:59.960 contributories, right, didn't. I did a lot of like squash and rebasings 397 00:28:00.200 --> 00:28:06.759 like not very kind like history management, and again like thousands of filesand of 398 00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:11.599 folder which we never reknew when humbrew is created is extreme. If you have 399 00:28:11.720 --> 00:28:17.519 very deep histories, get gets very angry and the performance goes to bad places 400 00:28:17.559 --> 00:28:22.640 pretty quick. So yeah, so as of I think it was a year 401 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.559 and a half, maybe two years ago, like someone one of the Humbrew 402 00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:33.400 maintainers kind of started a first attempt at like a little project to see about 403 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:37.720 Okay, well we can you can effectively turn pretty much all the hungry packages 404 00:28:37.759 --> 00:28:41.920 into like Jason output anyway, and when you're just downloading binary packages, you're 405 00:28:41.920 --> 00:28:47.559 basically just downloading I think, off the Internet and sticking it in like installing 406 00:28:47.599 --> 00:28:49.799 it that way anyway, you don't need all the kind of sophisticated build information 407 00:28:49.920 --> 00:28:53.680 for every package. So yeah, so as of yeah, like about a 408 00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:57.279 year ago, I think we've migrated entirely to what we call our kind of 409 00:28:57.400 --> 00:29:02.519 Jason API, which is downloading just a single Jason file which provides all the 410 00:29:02.559 --> 00:29:06.759 details for those packages, and then you just have that single download. You 411 00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:08.680 don't need to have that Git reports showing your machine anymore, which saves a 412 00:29:08.680 --> 00:29:14.480 bunch of space, and it's like a lot quicker with downloading. And yeah, 413 00:29:14.519 --> 00:29:18.960 and the implementation of that API is another disgusting thing. Where So, 414 00:29:18.519 --> 00:29:22.279 perhaps because I'm Scottish and we are known for such things, or just I 415 00:29:22.319 --> 00:29:26.839 don't know, I don't like pain for things, and in open source projects 416 00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:34.880 I even less so. Our our Jason API is actually on GitHub pages and 417 00:29:36.240 --> 00:29:40.680 it's yeah, so it's all like it's a statically generated API essentially, so 418 00:29:40.720 --> 00:29:44.559 like every fifteen minutes we like regenerate our packages. And what that means is 419 00:29:44.599 --> 00:29:48.759 that it's really really really fast and essentially, you know, nigh infinitely scalable 420 00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.000 for GitHub to stick a CDN in front of that and host it that way, 421 00:29:52.400 --> 00:29:56.000 and it's also pretty easy for us to kind of download and debug, 422 00:29:56.039 --> 00:30:02.039 and we're not maintaining some like complex and like you know, when I worked 423 00:30:02.039 --> 00:30:07.720 on the api GitHub, like, maintaining the performance on that thing when you 424 00:30:07.759 --> 00:30:11.640 were at the scales we were out was not an easy feat. And yeah, 425 00:30:11.680 --> 00:30:12.839 and I saw that, I guess working brew and I was like, 426 00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.640 nope, I'm gonna If I can make this just entirely static, unauthenticated API, 427 00:30:18.839 --> 00:30:21.440 then let's do that. So that's the route we went down, and 428 00:30:21.480 --> 00:30:26.839 it's been working pretty well for us. That's awesome. I love that. 429 00:30:27.039 --> 00:30:32.079 It also makes me think a little bit that sometimes I might be over complicating 430 00:30:32.119 --> 00:30:34.079 my life but trying to make it work the other way. Right, the 431 00:30:34.160 --> 00:30:37.720 more traditional i'm gonna build, I'm gonna build an endpoint on rails and it's 432 00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:41.799 gonna give all this stuff and it's gonna check all these things instead of just 433 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.519 saying, hey, it doesn't matter if everybody knows this, and it'll be 434 00:30:45.559 --> 00:30:51.839 way faster and it's not that big a file, so yeah, just go 435 00:30:51.960 --> 00:30:55.319 get it. Yeah, it's funny because I had this idea for like over 436 00:30:55.359 --> 00:31:00.440 a decade about like building essentially static APIs where because you know, like static 437 00:31:00.519 --> 00:31:04.640 site. I've used like Jacko and get hub pages for my page for a 438 00:31:04.680 --> 00:31:08.359 long time. I kind of like that sort of static site building model, 439 00:31:08.400 --> 00:31:12.079 and you know, the results are nice and super fast, and it's really 440 00:31:12.160 --> 00:31:17.319 cheap and easy to host and very non error prone. Right once once you've 441 00:31:17.359 --> 00:31:18.920 generated the files, you're like, well nothing can go ron no, right 442 00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:23.799 compared to like maintaining a real SAP. But yeah, so I always kind 443 00:31:23.839 --> 00:31:26.279 of liked the idea of having something a by and I was pleased that I 444 00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.640 was actually finely abel to do it because in cases where essentially you want to 445 00:31:30.640 --> 00:31:33.960 deliver the data to absolutely everyone, the data is the same, it's not 446 00:31:34.000 --> 00:31:38.920 like user dependent on whatever, and the data only needs updated like not very 447 00:31:38.920 --> 00:31:42.119 often, like you're not updating like second by second from some debase, but 448 00:31:42.119 --> 00:31:45.559 you're updating it, like, you know, a few times an hour. 449 00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:49.200 Then yeah, like this approach has actually been really quite cool and fun, 450 00:31:49.319 --> 00:31:53.440 and yeah, and encourage others to play it out, although play around with 451 00:31:53.480 --> 00:31:56.799 the approach, and maybe not on gaun pages because get on Ganguru. So 452 00:31:59.000 --> 00:32:02.519 well. I can imagine though, because I'm just thinking through maybe what I 453 00:32:02.559 --> 00:32:07.440 want to do with building an app for the podcast network, right, and 454 00:32:08.000 --> 00:32:12.839 yeah, like ninety nine percent of the stuff that I'm putting out there, 455 00:32:13.160 --> 00:32:16.759 it's going to be the same for everybody, and it's all public and right, 456 00:32:16.799 --> 00:32:20.359 so I don't have to protect it at all, and so yeah, 457 00:32:20.359 --> 00:32:23.240 why not just have a static file out there that it can just go, 458 00:32:23.599 --> 00:32:29.240 Oh, you want the list of podcasts here right Oh you want this podcast 459 00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:32.279 and all of its episodes here right now. Granted, some of the podcasts 460 00:32:32.279 --> 00:32:36.480 have more than five hundred episodes at this point, and so you might get 461 00:32:36.480 --> 00:32:39.440 a little longer a Jason file, but still it's not terribly large, and 462 00:32:40.759 --> 00:32:45.000 you know, you start getting into it really when you start pulling down images 463 00:32:45.119 --> 00:32:49.000 or audio files. But you know, I can put those in as URLs 464 00:32:49.039 --> 00:32:52.000 on the Jason and just make it really wicked fast. And then it's okay. 465 00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:55.480 Now I have restricted access from memberships and stuff like that. That's where 466 00:32:55.519 --> 00:33:00.240 I can, you know, maybe put a check in front of it, 467 00:33:00.359 --> 00:33:05.480 but still then just have them pick up a statically generated thing, because once 468 00:33:05.519 --> 00:33:08.319 you're authenticated, that's all the same too. So yep, killy, I'm 469 00:33:08.359 --> 00:33:13.480 really digging this. Yeah, it's it's been fun. I think, I 470 00:33:13.519 --> 00:33:15.880 don't know that. This is the thing I like about working with open source 471 00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:19.359 and stuff like humbrew is that you know, you get. I guess the 472 00:33:19.400 --> 00:33:22.400 thing I've learned in my career is the most interesting projects are the ones often 473 00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:28.759 worth any sort of constraints, right, Like the projects would like, you 474 00:33:28.759 --> 00:33:30.039 know, take as long as you want, you have as many people as 475 00:33:30.039 --> 00:33:32.599 you want, do it whatever you want, in whatever language you want. 476 00:33:32.680 --> 00:33:37.680 Like they're they're often like maybe I'm just a masacus, but I find them 477 00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:40.000 often like less fun, whereas the fun thing was saying our humbrew as well, 478 00:33:40.039 --> 00:33:44.839 it's like you're building humbrews that you're it's that well we we have Like 479 00:33:45.519 --> 00:33:49.079 I guess the way I describe Humbrew's financial situation is like not enough to pay 480 00:33:49.119 --> 00:33:52.880 anyone, but too much for stickers. Right, so you have like this 481 00:33:52.039 --> 00:33:59.279 like middle ground of money, and as a result, like it's this tricky 482 00:33:59.319 --> 00:34:00.240 thing of like, well, I don't really want to put us in a 483 00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:05.559 situation where we're paying vast hosting bills, so let's try and figure out a 484 00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:07.920 way of doing this for free essentially, but it has to be able to 485 00:34:07.920 --> 00:34:13.519 scale to like, you know, millions and not tens of millions of people 486 00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:17.239 like using this thing. So yeah, so like that's been a fun kind 487 00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:22.239 of comparison compared to as I say, you know, like get up dates, 488 00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:24.480 where you're scaling to many more people than that, but you also have, 489 00:34:25.400 --> 00:34:30.920 particularly post Microft acquisition, like many more resources you disposal in order to 490 00:34:30.440 --> 00:34:35.400 achieve those scales, and you're not worrying quite as much about the bottom line 491 00:34:35.400 --> 00:34:39.199 as you along. Yeah. Yeah. The other thing that I can I 492 00:34:39.400 --> 00:34:45.119 just went through my head was and this isn't Jason at XML but RSS feeds 493 00:34:45.400 --> 00:34:52.079 right Oh yeah, yeah, yep. So yeah, all right, so 494 00:34:52.159 --> 00:34:58.159 we've kind of talked through how the repository works. And let's say that I 495 00:34:58.199 --> 00:35:00.960 decided I wanted to be build the cl lie and it was moderately complex. 496 00:35:01.800 --> 00:35:07.559 Are there are there things that you recommend to me as a Ruby developer as 497 00:35:07.639 --> 00:35:13.559 places to get started. I mean, the funny thing is, I wasn't 498 00:35:13.639 --> 00:35:17.679 you know, I realized this. Maybe I don't know, a controversial take 499 00:35:17.800 --> 00:35:22.039 for the podcast, but like I mean, nowadays, I probably wouldn't necessarily 500 00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:27.920 reach for Ruby for a CLI, like it's it's okay for like doing doing 501 00:35:28.079 --> 00:35:30.519 you know, I still think it's great for doing web apps. But like 502 00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:34.039 you know, I've I've been building like a new CLI for some of the 503 00:35:34.079 --> 00:35:38.639 stuff we've been doing with work Brew, and like Go feels like a more 504 00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:44.719 I was basically weighing up between like Go, Rust and Swift basically as like 505 00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:50.320 the Swift for that Well, yeah, I didn't tank Swift at the end 506 00:35:50.440 --> 00:35:52.599 for various reasons, but you know, I ended up going with Go, 507 00:35:52.760 --> 00:35:58.840 which I it's I don't know, like for me, Go is just it's 508 00:35:58.920 --> 00:36:00.760 good at what it does. It's such a boring language. I don't have 509 00:36:00.880 --> 00:36:06.440 any fun when I'm writing Go. But you can ship a single static language. 510 00:36:06.920 --> 00:36:10.000 Yeah, and it's super fast and for CLI's like it's like the responsiveness 511 00:36:10.039 --> 00:36:14.400 is really great. I think I think that's the thing that maybe I'm just 512 00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:16.679 burned for like fifteen years of working in a Ruby Cli. But like there's 513 00:36:16.719 --> 00:36:22.000 a certain amount of people will complain about the slowness that it's like literally even 514 00:36:22.119 --> 00:36:27.440 like a Ruby interpreter spinning up and saying hello world is like unacceptably slow to 515 00:36:27.440 --> 00:36:30.400 some people, right, And at that level, I can't really do anything 516 00:36:30.400 --> 00:36:34.639 to make it it faster. But I guess if you, if you are 517 00:36:34.840 --> 00:36:37.840 going down the route of almost like really wanting to get into make it some 518 00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:39.920 sort of Ruby cli or whatever, I guess I would just say, like, 519 00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:45.000 you know, the beauty of Ruby is that you can start with like 520 00:36:45.039 --> 00:36:47.480 a single script, right. You can just have a script stick the shebang 521 00:36:47.519 --> 00:36:51.639 at the top, like the for those who don't know, that's the thing 522 00:36:51.679 --> 00:36:59.719 where it has like exclamation mark ash like user bin anyway, like user bin 523 00:36:59.800 --> 00:37:02.480 room or whatever, and then you can just start writing Ruby code straight away, 524 00:37:02.719 --> 00:37:07.360 right, And like that's that's how I think is the best way to 525 00:37:07.400 --> 00:37:12.000 maybe get started with like CLIs or whatever. It's just like rough and almost 526 00:37:12.079 --> 00:37:15.719 like reaching for some option parsing framework or whatever. No, just go and 527 00:37:15.400 --> 00:37:21.119 just start writing some Ruby and just read the rg V, which is the 528 00:37:21.239 --> 00:37:23.119 array of like the arguments you pass into the script, and like just read 529 00:37:23.119 --> 00:37:29.239 that yourself and just you know, don't don't go too fast, too quickly, 530 00:37:29.559 --> 00:37:31.519 and you'll probably have like a good time. Because again, like when 531 00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:36.559 you're CLIs if you wanted to distribute them to other people, like if they 532 00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:38.679 you know, if you start lying on loads of other gems and stuff, 533 00:37:38.679 --> 00:37:42.880 then it becomes like a little bit more of a headache to kind of distribute 534 00:37:42.920 --> 00:37:45.880 and use these things and keep them up to date and whatever. So like, 535 00:37:45.960 --> 00:37:47.440 yeah, I think the beauty of Ruby is like Ruby has like a 536 00:37:47.440 --> 00:37:52.440 pretty decent broad standard library you could do a lot with like a single script, 537 00:37:52.440 --> 00:37:54.679 and even like an old version of Ruby, like the ones that ship 538 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:59.480 with like nec o s like there's still you know, it's still a powerful, 539 00:37:59.840 --> 00:38:07.400 like pleasant language to work in. So yeah, very cool. So 540 00:38:07.519 --> 00:38:13.440 yeah, so is there anything new coming in Homebrew or yeah, I mean 541 00:38:13.480 --> 00:38:17.440 we're always working on It's funny because people quite people ask periodically about like the 542 00:38:17.519 --> 00:38:22.920 roadmap for Homebrew and because we're essentially i mean maybe except for me, now 543 00:38:22.239 --> 00:38:25.679 like essentially almost everyone is like a volunteer. The room map for Hebrew is 544 00:38:25.760 --> 00:38:30.679 kind of like, well, let's see what people want to work whatever people 545 00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:34.880 want to work on, right, And it's like the product management on Homebrew 546 00:38:35.079 --> 00:38:40.679 kind of looks more like nerds attempting to nerd snipe other maintainers into solving problems 547 00:38:40.679 --> 00:38:45.480 that it does like you know, building a team and assigning them a six 548 00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:47.559 month project or whatever. So yeah, I mean, I think like a 549 00:38:47.559 --> 00:38:52.079 big thing is like performance, Like we're continually trying to kind of eke out 550 00:38:52.519 --> 00:38:55.320 better performance where we can. And then yeah, and I guess like I'm 551 00:38:55.320 --> 00:38:58.840 looking at it from the kind of work Brew end as well of being like, 552 00:38:58.920 --> 00:39:04.400 okay, well, so if me and a team of people are actually 553 00:39:04.440 --> 00:39:07.360 able to work on Homebrew full time or like spend like a decent amount of 554 00:39:07.519 --> 00:39:12.920 our time putting into hombrew like one of the really big impactful things in Homebrew, 555 00:39:12.960 --> 00:39:15.760 that kind of might people might look at and say, that's just impossible 556 00:39:16.119 --> 00:39:20.239 that we could do if we have like a paid team of people who are 557 00:39:20.239 --> 00:39:22.519 working on this stuff full time. And I don't want to, you know, 558 00:39:22.599 --> 00:39:25.519 I don't want to be too spoilery with that, but yeah, there's 559 00:39:25.519 --> 00:39:31.400 definitely there's definitely some stuff we're exploring where if we see that there's interest and 560 00:39:31.480 --> 00:39:35.599 we can kind of pull it off, I think people will really say wow 561 00:39:35.639 --> 00:39:38.679 about but in the short to medium time, I think there's more along the 562 00:39:38.760 --> 00:39:43.079 lines of yeah, just like making Homebrew faster, more secure, and making 563 00:39:43.119 --> 00:39:46.280 the contribution process better and just trying to do everything we do right now like 564 00:39:46.519 --> 00:39:52.280 better basically, Like I mean, I'm a big fanic GitHub and on Homebrew 565 00:39:52.280 --> 00:39:57.000 of like when I wasn't get helped, that was like reading really really heavily 566 00:39:57.039 --> 00:40:00.719 into automation. So again, like a lot of what we're trying to do 567 00:40:00.840 --> 00:40:04.800 on Homebrew sometimes is like we've only got thirty people maintaining the project. But 568 00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:08.039 yeah, the throughput of like prs we have and it's fairly ridiculous, and 569 00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:12.880 we just try and have so much automation, leaning more and more and more 570 00:40:12.920 --> 00:40:16.079 heavily into that. And anytime you know, I catch people doing things that 571 00:40:16.119 --> 00:40:19.400 I'm like a bot could do this, then it's like, right, I 572 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:22.599 try and write some code and get the humans down the human things and save 573 00:40:22.639 --> 00:40:29.119 the boat work for the bots. So I was going to ask about work 574 00:40:29.119 --> 00:40:35.400 Brew. I'm gonna ask about in a second, but you did mention maintainers, 575 00:40:35.800 --> 00:40:38.000 and so if somebody is like, oh, I've got a great idea 576 00:40:38.039 --> 00:40:42.480 for Homebrew, or you know, I use this all the time, and 577 00:40:42.480 --> 00:40:45.239 I'd like to contribute back to it, right, Is there a good way 578 00:40:45.239 --> 00:40:50.280 for people to get started with contributing? Yea, so Homebrew the best way 579 00:40:50.320 --> 00:40:52.960 to get started is like a contribution section on the read me of the homebrew 580 00:40:53.000 --> 00:40:57.920 brew. So if you go there then you'll or if you even just search 581 00:40:57.960 --> 00:41:00.320 for like contributing to homebrew, like the result by results a pretty decent. 582 00:41:00.400 --> 00:41:06.119 I would say our docs are probably like on the better end for like contribution, 583 00:41:06.760 --> 00:41:08.320 our tooling is probably pretty good. But like I would say, like 584 00:41:08.800 --> 00:41:15.280 it's a really easy project to get started with, and we we really try 585 00:41:15.320 --> 00:41:17.679 to kind of cheerlead the people who want to get involved with the project. 586 00:41:17.800 --> 00:41:22.159 So like, if you're in any doubt, just try something and we'll help 587 00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:25.639 you out, and you can mention me by my GitHub handle or whatever if 588 00:41:25.639 --> 00:41:28.719 you say that it's your first PR and you're struggling, and I'll try and 589 00:41:28.719 --> 00:41:30.599 do what I can to help you and stuff like that. It's a yeah, 590 00:41:30.760 --> 00:41:34.440 as I say, I think it's a really good project to kind of 591 00:41:34.559 --> 00:41:37.599 get started with, but as you know, for some of us at least, 592 00:41:37.599 --> 00:41:44.639 it's also can be fairly addictive at times, so be wary from that 593 00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:47.880 perspective as well. Yeah, all right, So the other question I have 594 00:41:49.119 --> 00:41:51.639 then is, yeah, do you want to talk about work Brew like what 595 00:41:51.760 --> 00:41:55.599 it is and your head and with that, yeah, So I mean, 596 00:41:55.840 --> 00:41:59.599 as I mentioned earlier with like Homebrew, like, I've been working on humbrew 597 00:41:59.639 --> 00:42:04.599 for fifteen years and for you know, probably ten of those years, there's 598 00:42:04.639 --> 00:42:07.280 been people who have been encouraging me at various points to oh, you know, 599 00:42:07.320 --> 00:42:10.920 you should make a company doing stuff around humbrew, and I have been 600 00:42:12.119 --> 00:42:16.559 historically kind of down on this idea or fairly cynical, but do when I 601 00:42:16.599 --> 00:42:20.039 mean not going to name any names, but you know, there's been various 602 00:42:20.039 --> 00:42:23.679 companies who kind of have done open source stuff and then you know they can 603 00:42:23.719 --> 00:42:28.599 plain down the line when everyone uses their software, but they're not making enough 604 00:42:28.639 --> 00:42:30.960 money or whatever it may be. And right, I guess to me it's 605 00:42:31.000 --> 00:42:36.360 like open source itself is not a business model. And also like I you 606 00:42:36.360 --> 00:42:38.599 know, I kept like you mentioned earlier, like you've got you know, 607 00:42:38.719 --> 00:42:43.800 kids younger than Homebrew and stuff like, I also feel like who was kind 608 00:42:43.800 --> 00:42:45.000 of my first child, and I feel quite precious of it, and I 609 00:42:45.039 --> 00:42:51.519 wouldn't want to you know, like destroy it or whatever. So it's yeah, 610 00:42:51.559 --> 00:42:52.440 it took a while for me to get to a place that I was 611 00:42:52.480 --> 00:42:55.360 like, yeah, actually, it feels like a few things have come together. 612 00:42:55.480 --> 00:43:00.480 So one is like Homebrew feels I mean even with the Roman stuff, 613 00:43:00.519 --> 00:43:02.079 Like if we'd have this conversation a year ago or two years ago, I 614 00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:06.119 probably would have said, like more stuff on the horizon, But it feels 615 00:43:06.159 --> 00:43:10.039 like fairly close to kind of feature complete at this point without almost like a 616 00:43:10.039 --> 00:43:15.079 big injection of kind of effort and stuff. But that was one part. 617 00:43:15.119 --> 00:43:17.719 The other part is that we've got I won't go into all the boring details 618 00:43:17.760 --> 00:43:21.079 of like open source governance, but you know, but we have an open 619 00:43:21.119 --> 00:43:24.360 collective. We have a like a leadership committee, we have elections every year, 620 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:28.920 We have like ways of getting involved with the project beyond just like corn 621 00:43:29.000 --> 00:43:32.079 dogs and stuff like that. We have money that we're using to like provide 622 00:43:32.119 --> 00:43:36.599 stipends to some maintainers and pay for them to kind of come and meet each 623 00:43:36.639 --> 00:43:38.400 other in person and stuff. So the project feels like it's in a really 624 00:43:38.440 --> 00:43:43.639 good, mature place, and it's also in a place where no one party 625 00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.719 could ever kind of completely take over oh Brew, even if they wanted to 626 00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:50.559 and so yeah, so, And it's also in the backdrop of this, 627 00:43:50.639 --> 00:43:52.760 I guess, like, you know, I left GitHub last year and were 628 00:43:52.800 --> 00:43:55.960 sort of looking for a new challenge and something new. And you know, 629 00:43:57.079 --> 00:44:00.199 again, over the last ten years, there's been various times where companies come 630 00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:02.159 and say, hey, we'd like, you know, Homebrew to do this 631 00:44:02.320 --> 00:44:07.800 or that or whatever. And essentially what a lot of humbrew features come down 632 00:44:07.800 --> 00:44:09.400 to is, like, do the volunteers who are mainly working in their spare 633 00:44:09.480 --> 00:44:15.159 time want to build and support this right and for a lot of like big 634 00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.119 enterprise stuff at dinner Charles, if you ever had the misfortune of reading through 635 00:44:19.159 --> 00:44:22.039 like a samle speck or something like that before. But you know, once 636 00:44:22.320 --> 00:44:24.639 once you get into this like big enterprise tech, like, it's often not 637 00:44:24.920 --> 00:44:28.840 very fun and it's not what we want to spend their evenings and weekends doing. 638 00:44:29.400 --> 00:44:31.559 And I previously worked like before my Homebrew days, and like an open 639 00:44:31.559 --> 00:44:37.880 source company back when I was a KDE contributor and this company consulting company, 640 00:44:37.880 --> 00:44:40.119 and they hired more KD contributors than anyone else, and I worked and I 641 00:44:40.119 --> 00:44:42.960 thought, sweet, I'm going to be able to work on open source mods 642 00:44:42.960 --> 00:44:45.920 at the time, but I learned pretty quickly that their open source projects were 643 00:44:45.920 --> 00:44:50.039 actually not super fun because they were basically stuff that people would play a consulting 644 00:44:50.119 --> 00:44:52.000 company to go and like, hey, like we've got this stuff which we 645 00:44:52.039 --> 00:44:57.000 can't get anyone to do for fun, so will you do this for money? 646 00:44:57.480 --> 00:45:00.360 And then they're like okay, well fine. So with work Brew, 647 00:45:00.599 --> 00:45:04.360 I kind of see it as being a similar thing where what we're trying to 648 00:45:04.400 --> 00:45:06.719 do is, you know, there's a lot of talk about sustainability and open 649 00:45:06.760 --> 00:45:09.880 source and stuff right now, and I guess that's on my mind. I 650 00:45:09.920 --> 00:45:14.960 worked on the original team of people who built get up Sponsors and have helped 651 00:45:15.039 --> 00:45:17.400 kind of Humbrew have that open collective, and to me, like this is 652 00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:22.800 the next almost like step in the evolution of like what sustainability could look like 653 00:45:22.880 --> 00:45:27.719 for Humbrew is having a commercial entity where we're trying to kind of make a 654 00:45:27.719 --> 00:45:31.920 sustainable like commercial antitee who has an interest in making money in the Humber ecosystem, 655 00:45:32.199 --> 00:45:37.320 but not charging money directly for Humber itself. Humber itself will is and 656 00:45:37.400 --> 00:45:40.119 will always remain like free of charge, but we're going to make Humbrew better 657 00:45:40.119 --> 00:45:45.480 by making work grew better and be providing services to companies in the humbre ecosystem 658 00:45:45.559 --> 00:45:50.400 through our expertise and by building stuff that tightly integrates with Humbury. So essentially, 659 00:45:50.840 --> 00:45:52.760 the version of work Brew that I like run on my local machine today 660 00:45:52.960 --> 00:45:58.519 looks and behaves almost exactly the same as Homebrew, except it's got a little 661 00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:01.920 coffee cup instead of a beer emerge. But it's you know, it's running 662 00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:06.159 in a different way. It's running in a more isolated like fashion and multi 663 00:46:06.239 --> 00:46:09.480 user fashion. Right, it's like reporting back to do fleet management, so 664 00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:15.119 someone could upgrade like if I've got critical vulnerabilities remotely and so that people can 665 00:46:15.159 --> 00:46:19.920 see kind of oh like you've you haven't updated in six months and we've got 666 00:46:20.079 --> 00:46:22.480 some problems with that or whatever it may be. So yeah, So essentially 667 00:46:22.519 --> 00:46:24.760 that's what we've tried to do. We're trying to build something that provides a 668 00:46:24.760 --> 00:46:30.159 better experience for using home brew at work, but for most hobbyists, I 669 00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:34.320 mean, we very much have the goal that if you in five or ten 670 00:46:34.400 --> 00:46:37.599 years and we're successful, even if you've never heard of work Brew, even 671 00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:40.480 if you never interact with work Brew, you will look at essentially roundabout now 672 00:46:40.519 --> 00:46:45.119 as being an inflection point where Homebrew gets really really good in the next five 673 00:46:45.199 --> 00:46:49.840 or ten years and it gets noticeably better for everyone using it because we're able 674 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:54.280 to kind of get involved and improve the sustainability of the project through the commercialization 675 00:46:54.320 --> 00:47:01.480 of this part of the ecosystem. That's cool if people want to know a 676 00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:06.920 little bit more about what's going on with that, like do you have a 677 00:47:06.960 --> 00:47:09.679 mailing list or something, or yeah, so update somehow. Yeah, the 678 00:47:09.679 --> 00:47:13.480 best way of like getting in touch with us, We've got a contact form 679 00:47:13.480 --> 00:47:15.519 on our website. If you got to work through dot Com slash contact, 680 00:47:16.360 --> 00:47:21.400 then you can like send us all your message and then we can go and 681 00:47:21.800 --> 00:47:22.920 get in touch and we'll kind of send you emails and stuff like that. 682 00:47:22.960 --> 00:47:25.280 And you can also see if you go to work with dot Com our demo 683 00:47:25.320 --> 00:47:30.360 of what we have in private beta right now, which is essentially like fleet 684 00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:34.800 management for Homebrew and kind of integrated with the MDM tools, so that basically 685 00:47:34.840 --> 00:47:39.280 like mac Adminson primarily and you know, security professional developer experience where us can 686 00:47:39.280 --> 00:47:44.840 basically get a nicer experience of using Homebrew at work. So yeah, so 687 00:47:44.880 --> 00:47:47.519 we're recruiting like design partners for that right now, which essentially means like people 688 00:47:47.519 --> 00:47:52.760 who will give us lots of feedback while we make the beta kind of more 689 00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:54.599 to their requirements. So again, if you're interested in that, best way 690 00:47:54.639 --> 00:47:59.760 is reaching out through the contact form, and if you have any thoughts equally 691 00:47:59.800 --> 00:48:00.960 as well, if it's easier, if you're one of these people who's get 692 00:48:01.000 --> 00:48:06.159 scooped by contact forms, you can send me an email. My email address 693 00:48:06.199 --> 00:48:08.000 is pretty easily findable on the internet, so if you do that, or 694 00:48:08.039 --> 00:48:13.320 it's just micut workbow dot com or at brew dot sh if you want my 695 00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:20.199 open source email, awesome, all right, Well, if people want to 696 00:48:20.199 --> 00:48:23.599 connect with you on some other level, where do they find you on the 697 00:48:23.599 --> 00:48:31.039 internet. So I'm still I'm basically read only mainly on Twitter nowadays. I'm 698 00:48:31.320 --> 00:48:36.159 Mike McQuaid on there, but the best place probably is I'm Mike mccaid at 699 00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:39.280 massive on dot social on like masted on nowadays, or if you just find 700 00:48:39.280 --> 00:48:44.639 my website at Mike mcad dot com. That's basically got you know my I 701 00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:49.320 try and kind of put if I write blog posts or like do talks, 702 00:48:49.800 --> 00:48:52.400 and all my contact information is there and stuff as well. So yeah, 703 00:48:52.519 --> 00:48:58.039 and you'd be surprised how a few people actually just email me to say hi 704 00:48:58.159 --> 00:49:00.480 or share their opinions. So feel free to do that for almost anything, 705 00:49:00.480 --> 00:49:04.840 except for saying my herd Bruce broken, please fix it? In which case, 706 00:49:04.960 --> 00:49:08.039 okay, right, all right, good deal. Well I'm gonna go 707 00:49:08.039 --> 00:49:13.400 ahead and roll us into the picks here. Have you ever wished that you 708 00:49:13.480 --> 00:49:15.400 had a group of people that were just as passionate about writing code as you 709 00:49:15.440 --> 00:49:19.599 are? I know I did. I did that for most of my career. 710 00:49:19.599 --> 00:49:22.400 I'd go to the meetups, I try and create other opportunities, and 711 00:49:22.440 --> 00:49:24.519 it was just really hard, right the meetups. I got some of that, 712 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:28.400 but they were only like once or twice a month, and it was 713 00:49:28.480 --> 00:49:31.119 just really hard to find that group of people that I connected with and really 714 00:49:31.159 --> 00:49:35.400 wanted to, you know, talk about code a lot, right, I 715 00:49:35.400 --> 00:49:37.760 mean, I love writing code. I think it's the best. And so 716 00:49:38.119 --> 00:49:44.960 I've decided to create this community and create a worldwide community that we can all 717 00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:47.239 jump in and do it. So we're going to have two workshops every week. 718 00:49:47.519 --> 00:49:51.079 One of those or two of those every month are going to be Q 719 00:49:51.199 --> 00:49:52.960 and A calls right where you can get on you can ask me or me 720 00:49:53.079 --> 00:49:57.360 and another expert questions. The rest of them are going to be focused on 721 00:49:57.400 --> 00:50:01.400 different aspects of career or or things like that. Right, So it'll go 722 00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:07.039 anywhere from like deployments and containers all the way up to managing your four oh 723 00:50:07.079 --> 00:50:10.159 one K and negotiating your benefits package. Well, we'll cover all of it, 724 00:50:10.360 --> 00:50:14.960 okay. And then we're also going to have meetups every month for your 725 00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:19.440 particular technology area. So we have shows about JavaScript, React, angular view 726 00:50:19.480 --> 00:50:22.599 and so on. We're gonna have meetups for all of those things. I'm 727 00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:24.760 going to revive the freelancer show. We'll have one about that, right, 728 00:50:24.800 --> 00:50:29.079 so you can get started freelancing or continue freelancing if that's where you're at. 729 00:50:29.559 --> 00:50:35.840 And I'm working on finding authors who can actually do weekly video tutorials on some 730 00:50:36.159 --> 00:50:39.320 thing for ten minutes. This related again to those technology areas so that you 731 00:50:39.360 --> 00:50:43.960 can stay current keep growing. So if you're interested, go to topendevs dot 732 00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:49.599 com slash sign up and you can get in right now for thirty nine dollars. 733 00:50:49.800 --> 00:50:52.119 When we're done, that price is going to go up to seventy five 734 00:50:52.159 --> 00:50:58.519 dollars, and the thirty nine dollars price gets you access to two calls per 735 00:50:58.559 --> 00:51:02.280 week. The the full price at one hundred and fifty dollars, which is 736 00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:07.239 going to be seventy five dollars over the next few weeks. That price is 737 00:51:07.280 --> 00:51:09.639 going to get you access to all of the calls and all of the tutorials 738 00:51:09.679 --> 00:51:14.400 and everything else that we put out from top Endevs, along with member pricing 739 00:51:14.880 --> 00:51:19.079 for our remote conferences that are coming up next year. So go check it 740 00:51:19.079 --> 00:51:24.400 out topendevs dot com, slash sign up and I we usually have the host 741 00:51:24.480 --> 00:51:29.119 go first, so I'll go first. One of the first picks I have. 742 00:51:29.519 --> 00:51:32.920 I always pick a board game when I when I do my picks, 743 00:51:32.920 --> 00:51:38.159 and so I'm going to pick a board game called fire Tower. And basically 744 00:51:38.199 --> 00:51:43.440 it's a it was a relatively simple game. Let me look it up on 745 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:46.840 board game geep real quick while I tell you how it's played. But essentially, 746 00:51:47.519 --> 00:51:52.559 all of the players have fire towers in the corners of the board, 747 00:51:52.400 --> 00:52:00.519 and so what you're trying to do is you're trying to earn everybody else's tower 748 00:52:00.559 --> 00:52:07.039 down before the fire gets to and burns your tower down. And so you 749 00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:09.719 can play two to four players. We played it with four people. It 750 00:52:09.760 --> 00:52:14.480 was a lot of fun board game Geek rates at a one point seven to 751 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:19.800 seven. I tell people that it two is kind of a reasonably complicated game. 752 00:52:19.960 --> 00:52:22.599 It's complicated to be fun, but not so complicated that it's hard to 753 00:52:22.639 --> 00:52:24.679 pick up. And so, yeah, this is right in there at that 754 00:52:24.800 --> 00:52:29.679 level playing time, it says fifteen to thirty minutes. I think we played 755 00:52:29.679 --> 00:52:35.519 it forty five, but it was our first time. Yeah, ten plus 756 00:52:35.559 --> 00:52:39.400 player or ten plus on age. I honestly think my eight year old could 757 00:52:39.400 --> 00:52:44.960 play this game rights. It's pretty simple, and after she played it once 758 00:52:45.039 --> 00:52:47.039 or twice, she'd probably get most of the strategies figured out. Right, 759 00:52:47.440 --> 00:52:53.719 don't have the wind blowed toward your tower, put down the fire tokens in 760 00:52:53.760 --> 00:52:57.599 a way that gets it closer to the other people's towers, I mean, 761 00:52:57.679 --> 00:53:04.360 right anyway. So so I'm gonna go ahead and pick that it was a 762 00:53:04.400 --> 00:53:09.239 super fun game. Really enjoyed it. One other one that I'm gonna pick 763 00:53:09.480 --> 00:53:15.960 is we were talking about some of the install stuff and Daniel Keho, who's 764 00:53:15.400 --> 00:53:20.400 used to be in the Ruby community way back in the day. He has 765 00:53:20.440 --> 00:53:23.239 a website Mac dot install Dot Guide, and it walks through how to install 766 00:53:23.360 --> 00:53:29.159 like Ruby and a bunch of other stuff, and it pretty heavily refers people 767 00:53:29.199 --> 00:53:34.719 to homebrew. So anyway, I'm going to refer to that just as a 768 00:53:34.800 --> 00:53:44.480 resource that people can go check out. And then I had something else and 769 00:53:44.559 --> 00:53:49.599 I'm just kind of blinking on it. Anyway. The where I talked to 770 00:53:49.679 --> 00:53:54.079 Daniel most recently was when I picked up the Railscomposer dot com domain from him, 771 00:53:54.159 --> 00:53:59.679 and so I'm working on that. You can actually watch me build rails 772 00:53:59.679 --> 00:54:04.280 composed and all of the different rails engines that I plan on putting together for 773 00:54:04.320 --> 00:54:13.679 that on the Rails Clips video series. So just go to topendevs dot com 774 00:54:14.079 --> 00:54:16.280 you can find it. I think I also own railsclips dot com and I 775 00:54:16.320 --> 00:54:20.519 think that goes to the right place, so go check that out. But 776 00:54:21.719 --> 00:54:27.760 anyway, yeah, good stuff, Mike. What do you want to pick 777 00:54:27.760 --> 00:54:31.039 on the show. Yeah, okay, I guess I will do three little 778 00:54:31.119 --> 00:54:36.280 picks. So one would be I'm reading a book right now by a guy 779 00:54:36.280 --> 00:54:39.440 called Alistair Reynolds, and he's a science fiction author. He's written a lot 780 00:54:39.519 --> 00:54:44.280 kind of space opera stuff. I've written read all of his books that he's 781 00:54:44.280 --> 00:54:46.440 ever written so far, and he released a new one a couple of months 782 00:54:46.440 --> 00:54:50.920 ago, which on eighty eight percent of the way through called Machine Vendetta that 783 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:54.320 you Penny Arcade talked about it, and you probably don't want to jump straight 784 00:54:54.360 --> 00:54:59.119 into Machine Vendetta. This has been a couple of books of preceding it in 785 00:54:59.119 --> 00:55:01.599 the series. You want to deal with the discussion of hyper pigs in the 786 00:55:01.639 --> 00:55:07.199 first paragraph, which may throw you off. My second recommendation would be a 787 00:55:07.239 --> 00:55:12.920 band you may or may not be into their vibe. They're called Ale Storm 788 00:55:13.400 --> 00:55:16.199 like a storm of Beer, and I guess you can see there's a theme 789 00:55:16.199 --> 00:55:22.960 going on. They are Scottish pirates metal band. I'm seeing them live next 790 00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:29.440 Sunday in Scotland, but they play internationally. My kids really like a song 791 00:55:29.559 --> 00:55:34.199 from their latest album called Pirate Party because it has a moment with a man 792 00:55:34.280 --> 00:55:37.320 drinking from a shoe, which is apparently very funny when you're four and six 793 00:55:37.360 --> 00:55:40.320 years old. But generally I would not recommend most of their songs to children, 794 00:55:40.480 --> 00:55:45.679 and as they are very heavily expleted written in some of them. But 795 00:55:45.840 --> 00:55:50.440 you, you know whatever, they may work for you or not. And 796 00:55:50.519 --> 00:55:54.519 my final recommendation, I guess on the theme of open source maintenance in particular 797 00:55:54.679 --> 00:56:00.559 is therapy. I've been doing therapy intermittally since twenty two and I've something I've 798 00:56:00.599 --> 00:56:07.880 found tremendously helpful personally with all sorts of things in work, personal life, 799 00:56:07.119 --> 00:56:15.280 my relationships with my friend's family, kids, wife, and even on occasion 800 00:56:15.360 --> 00:56:19.360 I have sessions where I talk about particularly difficult person I'm dealing with open source 801 00:56:19.440 --> 00:56:22.559 land in a given therapy session. So if you're interested, I would highly 802 00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:25.639 recommend it. And I've written a blog person on my website of like a 803 00:56:25.639 --> 00:56:29.679 step by step guide if that's your way of doing things, of like how 804 00:56:29.719 --> 00:56:32.639 to find a therapist. So if you're interested and that's useful to you, 805 00:56:32.679 --> 00:56:37.119 please consider doing that. Oh man, given the last few months that I've 806 00:56:37.119 --> 00:56:43.480 had, I might need that anyway. What was the name of the band 807 00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:45.920 again? And if you can put a link into the comments, that'd be 808 00:56:45.960 --> 00:56:50.800 great. Yeah, I will drop a link into the band let me see. 809 00:56:52.679 --> 00:56:54.840 But yeah, we'll go ahead and wrap up here. One other thing 810 00:56:54.880 --> 00:56:58.079 I was just going to put out there, This is the thing I forgot, 811 00:56:58.760 --> 00:57:01.880 is that my contract work has slowed down a bit. So if you're 812 00:57:02.039 --> 00:57:06.920 looking I'm either looking for a full time job or a contract perfer contract. 813 00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:10.280 But you know, if you've got an interesting set of problems and you're going 814 00:57:10.320 --> 00:57:13.920 to pay me well to fix them, then I am happy to consider full 815 00:57:13.960 --> 00:57:17.280 time work. You can just email me Chuck at topendevth dot com. All 816 00:57:17.360 --> 00:57:24.039 right, thanks for coming, Mike, This was really really interesting. Thanks 817 00:57:24.039 --> 00:57:28.039 for having me, Chuck, and have a good rest today everyone. Yeah 818 00:57:28.119 --> 00:57:32.519 you too, max out everybody.