WEBVTT 1 00:00:03.919 --> 00:00:08.839 You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting 2 00:00:08.880 --> 00:00:14.839 podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 3 00:00:14.960 --> 00:00:19.519 Episode number three forty eight. Cinema should make you forget You're sitting in 4 00:00:19.559 --> 00:00:25.480 a theater Roman Polanski broadcasting from a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we 5 00:00:25.559 --> 00:00:30.160 really should be working on that next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, 6 00:00:30.480 --> 00:00:34.159 showing you the craft and business of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your 7 00:00:34.159 --> 00:00:40.520 screenplay bulletproof. And here's your host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to 8 00:00:40.560 --> 00:00:44.799 another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. 9 00:00:45.520 --> 00:00:50.560 Now. Today's show is sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike 10 00:00:50.679 --> 00:00:57.079 other script coverage services, Bulletproof Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project 11 00:00:57.159 --> 00:01:00.840 you are and the goals of the project you are. Actually break it down 12 00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.359 by three categories micro budget, indie film, market and studio film. There's 13 00:01:04.359 --> 00:01:07.920 no reason to get coverage from a reader that's used to reading temp pole movies 14 00:01:08.079 --> 00:01:11.359 when your movie is gonna be done for one hundred thousand dollars, and we 15 00:01:11.400 --> 00:01:15.280 wanted to focus on that At Bulletproof Script Coverage, our readers have worked with 16 00:01:15.319 --> 00:01:22.120 Marvel Studios, CIA, WME, NBC, HBO, Disney, Scott Free, 17 00:01:22.159 --> 00:01:25.120 Warner Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you 18 00:01:25.200 --> 00:01:30.200 need your screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to 19 00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:37.239 covermiscreenplay dot Com. Well, guys, today on the show, we have 20 00:01:38.079 --> 00:01:42.920 an amazing filmmaker by the name of Scott Cooper. You may know his work 21 00:01:42.000 --> 00:01:49.680 from the Academy Award nominated film Crazyheart, which was his first script and his 22 00:01:49.879 --> 00:01:55.120 first directorial debut, and from there he's done films like Out of the Furnace, 23 00:01:55.239 --> 00:02:00.959 Black Mass with Johnny Depp, Hostiles with Christian Bale, Antlers, and 24 00:02:00.079 --> 00:02:06.519 the new film The Pale Blue Eye with Christian Bale and a cast that is 25 00:02:06.640 --> 00:02:12.479 remarkable on Netflix. Scott and I had a fantastic conversation about how he got 26 00:02:12.479 --> 00:02:17.360 started, how he made the transition from actor to director, following your dreams, 27 00:02:19.000 --> 00:02:23.479 how to direct legendary actors. I mean, the casts in his films 28 00:02:23.080 --> 00:02:27.919 are just I can't even explain it. You have to see it when you 29 00:02:27.960 --> 00:02:30.280 watch these films. But we had a great conversation. I can't wait for 30 00:02:30.319 --> 00:02:32.439 you guys to hear it. So without any further ado, please enjoy my 31 00:02:32.479 --> 00:02:38.680 conversation with Scott Cooper. I like to welcome to the show, Scott Cooper. 32 00:02:38.680 --> 00:02:40.120 Man. How you doing, Scott great? Thank you, Alex, 33 00:02:40.759 --> 00:02:44.159 thanks for coming on the show. Man. I'm a fan, man, 34 00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:46.039 I've been a fan for a while. Man, you're doing some really good 35 00:02:46.080 --> 00:02:51.159 work. Brother. Seriously, Man, thank you, Thanks Upper and Tougher. 36 00:02:51.680 --> 00:02:55.639 It's man, I can I was just talking. I was just talking 37 00:02:55.639 --> 00:03:00.240 to somebody a few minutes ago about how the movie business is changing so dramatically, 38 00:03:00.240 --> 00:03:06.439 even from when you made Crazy Heart to now getting somebody to the movie 39 00:03:06.439 --> 00:03:14.319 theater. If Avatar is having a problem, I mean, you know, 40 00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:17.439 I suspect people go out for that film. I did know. I saw. 41 00:03:17.560 --> 00:03:21.280 It's one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen in my life. 42 00:03:21.280 --> 00:03:24.639 Like what what Jim did was, yeah, no problem, It's remarkable. 43 00:03:24.719 --> 00:03:28.280 But and it's doing well. But people are like, oh, it should 44 00:03:28.280 --> 00:03:30.520 be doing better. And there's a lot of pressure on a movie like that. 45 00:03:30.680 --> 00:03:35.280 But other than an Avatar and Top Gun last year, it's tough to 46 00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:38.280 get people out to the theaters. Man, yeah. Well, in fact, 47 00:03:39.560 --> 00:03:44.680 maybe that was happening also a little bit before COVID, certainly accelerated during 48 00:03:45.000 --> 00:03:50.719 COVID. Look, it's expensive to get a center and dinner and parking, 49 00:03:50.759 --> 00:03:54.240 and then the price of a movie. Maybe for the kind of movies that 50 00:03:54.319 --> 00:03:59.400 I make and some of my favorite filmmakers, perhaps the ticket prices should be 51 00:03:59.439 --> 00:04:04.159 lowered and then right will be more likely to come out, because there really 52 00:04:04.199 --> 00:04:12.879 is nothing like experiencing and in fact, the film will not have the same 53 00:04:12.879 --> 00:04:16.120 effect on you regardless support it is if you're watching it anywhere but in the 54 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.959 center. But there's no there's no question, my friend. But but you've 55 00:04:20.000 --> 00:04:24.800 lived a very interesting life in the film industry. You've you've you came up 56 00:04:25.120 --> 00:04:29.040 as an actor. So my first question, how did you and why did 57 00:04:29.120 --> 00:04:31.560 you want to get into this insanity that is the film industry. Well, 58 00:04:31.639 --> 00:04:39.160 look, it's uh, you don't choose your obsessions. Your obsessions choose you, 59 00:04:39.399 --> 00:04:42.639 right, very much. So I also spent, uh, I was 60 00:04:42.680 --> 00:04:45.759 born and spent with a lot of my formive years in this kind of artistic 61 00:04:45.879 --> 00:04:49.279 crown jewel of Virginia called Avenue, Virginia, where the state theater is also 62 00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:54.680 a lot of great uh music comes out of that that region, the Mountain 63 00:04:54.680 --> 00:04:57.680 Empire, as well as a lot of arts and crafts. So the arts 64 00:04:57.680 --> 00:05:00.759 were always a part of my life. My father would take me to see 65 00:05:01.160 --> 00:05:05.920 films at a young age at a local college, and then you know, 66 00:05:05.959 --> 00:05:10.720 when you're young and you're transfixed by that, and you also have spent time 67 00:05:10.800 --> 00:05:15.439 as an actor. At Christian Bale and I had discussed this that that that 68 00:05:15.480 --> 00:05:19.639 people who get into the film business aren't meant to have office jobs, and 69 00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:25.319 I think I realized that at a young age. I also realized at a 70 00:05:25.360 --> 00:05:30.600 young age that there were actors who were a whole lot better at this vocation 71 00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:34.800 than I, Especially when you're on the other side of the camera and your 72 00:05:34.800 --> 00:05:41.519 first film is you know, you're you're recording Jeff Bridges for Posterity and Roberto 73 00:05:41.560 --> 00:05:47.959 fall And and Maggie Jill at Hank Colin Ferrell. That quickly makes you realize 74 00:05:48.120 --> 00:05:51.399 that there are people who do it a whole lot better than you. And 75 00:05:51.439 --> 00:05:58.079 then my second film was Christian Bale and Casey Affleck and Woody Willem Dafoe and 76 00:05:58.120 --> 00:06:01.600 Sam Shephard and Forrest Whitiker and Zoey Saldana and then I'm like, Okay, 77 00:06:01.800 --> 00:06:08.360 I'm definitely not going to be an actor again. So but quite honestly, 78 00:06:08.439 --> 00:06:12.959 Alex, this is I mean, I couldn't imagine a better job than being 79 00:06:12.959 --> 00:06:15.959 a film writer film director. I mean, I suppose being Mick Jagger or 80 00:06:18.800 --> 00:06:24.800 Bono Eddie Vedder, you know, someone who's a rock star right and sings 81 00:06:24.839 --> 00:06:30.319 to eighty one hundred thousand people on certain events. But I love being able 82 00:06:30.360 --> 00:06:33.600 to express myself as a filmmaker. I love the people that I've met over 83 00:06:33.600 --> 00:06:39.160 the course of my career. I mean, look, I've been for an 84 00:06:39.199 --> 00:06:44.759 actor with an unremarkable career, I have been incredibly fortunate as a filmmaker. 85 00:06:45.199 --> 00:06:46.879 I'll just say that. You know, it's it's interesting because a lot of 86 00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:50.680 people like you know, everyone could play basketball, you know, generally everyone 87 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:54.240 could pick a ball and try to make a shot. But we're not all 88 00:06:54.279 --> 00:06:57.639 Michael Jordan or Lebron James and well, and that's I think that's where you 89 00:06:57.680 --> 00:07:01.319 were at. Well sure, I mean, even Robert Duvall, who was 90 00:07:01.399 --> 00:07:06.120 my mentor and and expressed to me and still does how much he liked me 91 00:07:06.160 --> 00:07:10.680 as an actor. Jeff Bridge is the same thing but but I just have 92 00:07:10.800 --> 00:07:15.199 much more fun doing this. And and I never even really had a chance 93 00:07:15.240 --> 00:07:18.399 to grow as an actor. I wasn't getting the kind of challenging parts that 94 00:07:18.399 --> 00:07:25.040 that I now write for actors, and I adoor actors and performance is critical 95 00:07:25.040 --> 00:07:30.600 to me, and and and and and working with actors that I've always uh 96 00:07:30.560 --> 00:07:38.879 uh admired uh and and you know, also being able to work with actors 97 00:07:38.879 --> 00:07:43.000 that teach me something, as Jeff certainly has, or Robert duball or or 98 00:07:43.279 --> 00:07:49.920 Christian or even Johnny Depp. So I'm blessed man. That's that's just the 99 00:07:50.000 --> 00:07:54.240 truth. So at what point, because I'm assuming as you were going down 100 00:07:54.279 --> 00:07:57.560 the path as an actor, there might have been some rejection, not much, 101 00:07:57.560 --> 00:08:01.319 I'm sure, but some rejection. You know, the actor who isn't 102 00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.040 who isn't rejected a lot. Right. So I love Baneler and he started 103 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.800 twelve, I mean so yeah, he had but he had a good start. 104 00:08:09.879 --> 00:08:13.720 That's a little Spueberg a independent film thing he did. Yeah. But 105 00:08:13.240 --> 00:08:18.480 so when you're going so, when you're going through the acting process, at 106 00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:22.079 what point did you say, you know what, I'm not going to hit 107 00:08:22.079 --> 00:08:24.759 the All Star team as an actor. I want to jump to the other 108 00:08:24.839 --> 00:08:26.839 side of the ft, like, what was the point when you decided I'm 109 00:08:26.839 --> 00:08:31.839 gonna write. I was just auditioning a lot and you know, kind of 110 00:08:31.320 --> 00:08:39.200 coming a bridesmaid coming in second and uh and and we're and and not getting 111 00:08:39.240 --> 00:08:41.159 the parts that made me want to become an actor in the first place. 112 00:08:41.200 --> 00:08:46.080 I think everybody who's you know, a young actor coming up in the nineties 113 00:08:46.120 --> 00:08:48.360 one you know a career at least I did, like Sean penn or de 114 00:08:48.440 --> 00:08:52.759 Niro, right or pack Himan a Paccino. So when you're not getting those 115 00:08:52.799 --> 00:08:58.600 parts and you're going up for leading men and you're not really loving but you 116 00:08:58.639 --> 00:09:01.879 have to support yourself, it just ultimately the rejection. It's a lot. 117 00:09:05.240 --> 00:09:07.879 And I mean, look, we all get rejected, certainly in the art 118 00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:13.240 when you make things that take big risks, for sure. But it was 119 00:09:13.320 --> 00:09:18.840 really just the continual process of auditioning and films that I would have liked to 120 00:09:18.879 --> 00:09:24.679 have been in not getting parts in them, whether it would be then Redline 121 00:09:26.320 --> 00:09:31.480 or Saving Private Ryan. And then I was doing a Western with Duval being 122 00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:37.279 directed by the great Walter Hill, who was also an mentor of mine, 123 00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:43.639 and Duvall said you know, you should really write something, And of course 124 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:46.799 I ended up. At the time, I had spending a lot of time 125 00:09:46.440 --> 00:09:50.559 considering writing the film about Merle Haggard. He had too many ex wives. 126 00:09:50.600 --> 00:09:56.279 Getting the rights were difficult, so I ended up writing We'll be right back 127 00:09:56.440 --> 00:10:03.919 after a word from our sponsor, and now back to the show, Crazy 128 00:10:03.960 --> 00:10:09.279 Hart and Duvall was the first person to read it. And and you know, 129 00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:13.799 Alex, the truth is when Jeff Bridges says yes to your film, 130 00:10:13.799 --> 00:10:16.440 it changes your life. And that's exactly what happened to me. So is 131 00:10:16.440 --> 00:10:18.279 that how you got the Because I was going to ask, like, you're 132 00:10:18.320 --> 00:10:20.799 basically a first time filmmaker at this point. Yeah, you've been on set 133 00:10:20.840 --> 00:10:24.519 for a long time, but you're about first time writer. That's all right. 134 00:10:28.200 --> 00:10:31.840 I've never directed a film, I've never directed a commercial, I've never 135 00:10:31.919 --> 00:10:35.519 directed a high school play. But I know this world and I know that 136 00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:43.120 by surrounding myself with great collaborators, production designers, costumers, hammermen, women, 137 00:10:43.240 --> 00:10:45.600 that sort of thing, that I knew that I could tell this story. 138 00:10:46.000 --> 00:10:48.399 And Jeff, I remember it is though it were yesterday, And Jeff 139 00:10:48.440 --> 00:10:50.519 says, so this is your first time? Yeah, I said it is, 140 00:10:52.320 --> 00:10:54.759 he said, I've had a lot of success with first time directors, 141 00:10:54.960 --> 00:11:01.360 the Fabulous Baker Boys being one of them. Said I'm in And you know, 142 00:11:01.440 --> 00:11:05.919 Alex at that point that my life is near the same. And so 143 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.960 I have to ask you. First day on set, you're sitting you're the 144 00:11:09.960 --> 00:11:13.320 big man on your big man on campus, first day, how do you 145 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:16.840 deal with not only the pressure of the first day and making sure that you 146 00:11:16.919 --> 00:11:20.799 make that first day, but you're looking through the lens and you see Jeff 147 00:11:20.799 --> 00:11:28.159 Bridges there like, and you're directing a legend, multiple legends by the way, 148 00:11:28.200 --> 00:11:31.120 in that film. Okay, how how do you deal with that as 149 00:11:31.159 --> 00:11:35.559 a director? Well, you deal with it by forgetting to call cut. 150 00:11:35.679 --> 00:11:39.440 In my ad Karen and Chow was looking at me as the scene had finished, 151 00:11:39.720 --> 00:11:43.639 and I'm trans and this is the truth and I'm transfixed and and she 152 00:11:43.679 --> 00:11:48.440 looked at me and she said, and I said cut. That was and 153 00:11:48.519 --> 00:11:52.120 literally it was like, my god, I remember that night that Jeff Bridges 154 00:11:52.559 --> 00:11:56.399 is taking Dialogue what I have written and taking it to places that I never 155 00:11:56.440 --> 00:12:01.240 expected. And that's especially because I've written specifically for him. That's the sign 156 00:12:01.320 --> 00:12:09.440 of a great actor. And now five films later, it's happened in every 157 00:12:09.600 --> 00:12:13.840 film, thankfully. So the one thing that's so impressive about your work, 158 00:12:13.960 --> 00:12:16.240 not only the writing and the directing, but the cast that you're able to 159 00:12:16.440 --> 00:12:22.240 attract is honestly unheard of. I mean, your second film, that list 160 00:12:22.279 --> 00:12:26.360 of actors, any one of them could have been the star, but a 161 00:12:26.399 --> 00:12:30.559 lot of them took secondary roles because they wanted to work on the project. 162 00:12:31.080 --> 00:12:33.919 How do you attract all of these? I mean, and it's film after 163 00:12:33.960 --> 00:12:37.320 film after film after film. As I'm going through filmography, I'm just like, 164 00:12:37.679 --> 00:12:41.480 how the hell is this guy grabbing? I know it's the material, 165 00:12:41.960 --> 00:12:46.240 but like even good material doesn't attract a lot of times because of politics and 166 00:12:46.279 --> 00:12:50.879 schedules and this or that that is the case. It's difficult too, because 167 00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:54.840 all the actors that you're referring to, everybody else wants and right trying to 168 00:12:54.879 --> 00:13:01.399 fit them into a schedule is one of the it's difficult things to do about 169 00:13:01.919 --> 00:13:09.240 making a film. But I think look, certainly the success of Crazy Hart 170 00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:11.480 has helped win. When your film, your first film is nominated for free 171 00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:16.320 oscars and wins a couple that certainly changes the calculus for everybody. Else when 172 00:13:16.320 --> 00:13:22.120 they see how wonderful Jeff is and Maggie and Colin and d Ball and on 173 00:13:22.120 --> 00:13:26.639 and on and on right, So that probably doesn't happen if that film doesn't 174 00:13:26.679 --> 00:13:31.159 have the success that it did. And then Out of the Furnace had kind 175 00:13:31.159 --> 00:13:35.600 of like a murderer's row of actors that all of whom are you know, 176 00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:43.440 considered to be favorites of mine. So I think once those two films were 177 00:13:43.440 --> 00:13:46.519 made, I think actors felt like, you know what, he I can 178 00:13:46.519 --> 00:13:52.080 feel safe with Scott, because that's the key is to really make an actor 179 00:13:52.799 --> 00:13:56.519 feel very safe, safe to take big risks, knows that I'm going to 180 00:13:56.559 --> 00:14:00.200 protect them, not only on the day when we're shooting, but all so 181 00:14:00.399 --> 00:14:05.919 in the cutting room. I think the actors that we're talking about know that 182 00:14:05.000 --> 00:14:11.720 I'm more interested in films that push me into an uncomfortable space. I've spoken 183 00:14:11.759 --> 00:14:16.120 to all of them about the great danger is really doing safe work where all 184 00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:20.000 of it the edges are sanded off, so that a lot of people will 185 00:14:20.120 --> 00:14:24.759 like your film, the Academy or people who are voting bodies, right, 186 00:14:26.639 --> 00:14:33.840 And I think they realize that those don't those concerns don't really concern me. 187 00:14:33.000 --> 00:14:37.039 So it's all about telling a very honest story, a very authentic story, 188 00:14:37.600 --> 00:14:46.799 and a story that's not afraid to not let the audience off the hook. 189 00:14:46.639 --> 00:14:52.480 I think striving for consensus is not something that I tend to do. I 190 00:14:52.480 --> 00:14:56.639 don't make films out of fear, and certain actors respond to that. And 191 00:14:56.720 --> 00:15:01.799 so another thing about working with all of these amazing actors is I know that 192 00:15:01.919 --> 00:15:07.039 all of them have very different processes. So as a director, I mean, 193 00:15:07.159 --> 00:15:09.600 as a director, how do you handle it when you have, you 194 00:15:09.600 --> 00:15:11.919 know, four or five different of these actors in a in a scene. 195 00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.559 You can't just yell out direction. You've got to kind of go first. 196 00:15:16.799 --> 00:15:20.799 I never do that. I owed a direction to actors that nobody hears but 197 00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:24.120 the actor. I'll make sure that exactly Mixer has turned off all Mike, 198 00:15:24.200 --> 00:15:28.600 so nobody even sat we'll hear the direction that I give Sam super Right or 199 00:15:28.679 --> 00:15:35.399 Robert Duval Christian, whomever it is. I think, well, I don't 200 00:15:35.399 --> 00:15:39.639 think. I know, you have to be very specific with actors. Don't 201 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:43.720 talk in the abstract. Uh, It's really about who is your character, 202 00:15:43.399 --> 00:15:48.519 what does the character want in the scene, what's the subtext? And again 203 00:15:48.759 --> 00:15:52.440 make them feel safe, safe and free to take big risks. And every 204 00:15:52.519 --> 00:15:58.039 actor comes at a scene differently. A c Affleck and Willem Devote couldn't be 205 00:15:58.080 --> 00:16:03.960 more dissimilar in terms of react styles, and you have to on the day 206 00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:08.799 balance those styles to make sure that all ideas are welcome, but that we're 207 00:16:08.840 --> 00:16:15.159 all trying to serve the theme of the film and what's the subtext of a 208 00:16:15.240 --> 00:16:17.840 theme. And then when you cast people up with Willem to Foe who's made 209 00:16:17.879 --> 00:16:21.360 out of probably one hundred films, or because she who's made fifty to Ball 210 00:16:21.440 --> 00:16:23.440 has made a hundred, I mean it's like, and I've said this before, 211 00:16:23.440 --> 00:16:26.960 it's almost as though you're like a jockey at the but I would imagine 212 00:16:27.000 --> 00:16:30.840 when to be at the Kentucky Derby. You're on the best and it's a 213 00:16:30.840 --> 00:16:34.919 little bit of guidance here, a little bit of guidance there, shown the 214 00:16:34.960 --> 00:16:40.000 whip, you know, and then let them run the rest of the work. 215 00:16:40.080 --> 00:16:41.480 I mean, that's the key, is like not getting in their way 216 00:16:41.879 --> 00:16:45.440 and helping an asked, Ball would always say to me the key to being 217 00:16:45.440 --> 00:16:49.919 a successful director of performances, which is what I hope I am is knowing 218 00:16:51.000 --> 00:16:55.480 how to help an actor and he or she is in trouble. Now with 219 00:16:55.559 --> 00:17:00.039 Crazy Heart, you, I mean again, you're you're very rare example of 220 00:17:00.080 --> 00:17:03.279 your first film being nominated for three Oscars. It doesn't happen quite very often. 221 00:17:04.240 --> 00:17:08.119 How did you man? I got to be here? Yeah, that 222 00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:12.519 was my question? How did you handle there? Not only the pressure, 223 00:17:12.640 --> 00:17:18.200 the accolades, the you're the greatest, the ego trips, being in the 224 00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:21.960 center of that hurricane, and then after winning, you know, the film, 225 00:17:21.960 --> 00:17:25.559 winning a few a couple of Oscars, and how the town treated you 226 00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:30.480 because how it was a dangerous place. And and but you already had been 227 00:17:30.640 --> 00:17:33.799 in town a bit as an actor, so you've seen a few things that 228 00:17:33.839 --> 00:17:37.559 I'm oh, yeah, So how did you deal with it? Man? 229 00:17:37.200 --> 00:17:42.759 Well, by making a film that was the complete polar opposite, which was 230 00:17:42.799 --> 00:17:45.799 Out of the Furnace, which you know, I hope to make as an 231 00:17:47.480 --> 00:17:52.799 giant prime film, right, that that would remind me of a smaller version 232 00:17:52.839 --> 00:17:56.880 of The Deer Hunter. Right, And you feel like, okay, well, 233 00:17:56.759 --> 00:18:00.519 you're definitely not going to sand off the edges. You're not going to 234 00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:04.000 strive for consensus. You're going to make a film that is as hard hitting 235 00:18:04.079 --> 00:18:11.559 as the people experience who actually live there. Right. And fortunately that's where 236 00:18:11.799 --> 00:18:17.079 Christian and I met in Braddock, Pennsylvania Mayor John Fetterman, who's now the 237 00:18:18.359 --> 00:18:22.519 Senator from Pennsylvania, right, And I know how tough it was to live 238 00:18:22.519 --> 00:18:25.920 in a place like that probably still is in brad it. So if you're 239 00:18:25.960 --> 00:18:30.000 being authentic to telling the story, that's really the key, and you don't 240 00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:34.640 worry about what others will say, You don't worry about what Academy voters will 241 00:18:34.640 --> 00:18:37.519 say, you don't worry about what critics say. Because if you look at 242 00:18:37.519 --> 00:18:41.640 most of Stanley Kubrick's films, they were not well received when they first came 243 00:18:41.640 --> 00:18:45.319 out, all of them, almost I think all of them Unionesty, were 244 00:18:45.359 --> 00:18:51.160 not well received. And time is what settles the store, right. So 245 00:18:51.240 --> 00:18:55.200 often you see movies that go on to win Oscars and receive acclaim and you 246 00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.599 watch them two, three or four years later, if not sooner, you've 247 00:18:57.599 --> 00:19:02.160 been and you realize that they don't really hold up. Right. So if 248 00:19:02.160 --> 00:19:03.920 you're if you're playing, and these actors that I work with know that you're 249 00:19:03.960 --> 00:19:07.920 playing for the long game. And really, what what means something to me 250 00:19:08.039 --> 00:19:14.880 is that when when I hear from people who are also filmmakers who have responded 251 00:19:14.920 --> 00:19:18.720 to me, whether it's Bogdanovitch with Crazy Heart, whether it was Michael Chimino 252 00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:23.960 calling me, or or William Freakin after seeing Out of the Furnace. You 253 00:19:23.960 --> 00:19:29.119 know, Michael Mann, who is has been very kind to me, Mike 254 00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:33.880 Nichols, like all of these people that I admire who really reach out to 255 00:19:33.920 --> 00:19:37.880 you after seeing your films and and and continued, you know, applaud you 256 00:19:37.920 --> 00:19:41.400 to continue to push. How how do you as a I mean, as 257 00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:45.359 a filmmaker. There's so many traps with that because you know, when you're 258 00:19:45.359 --> 00:19:49.440 getting your you're basically the people you admire falling you, telling you that you're 259 00:19:49.559 --> 00:19:55.240 great and to keep going. We'll be right back after a word from our 260 00:19:55.279 --> 00:20:03.079 sponsor. And now back to the show. The ego has to fall into 261 00:20:03.599 --> 00:20:07.680 how do you keep that in place, because that's a problem when you have 262 00:20:07.799 --> 00:20:11.960 so much James the Arc, Yes, and you have to. Of course, 263 00:20:12.039 --> 00:20:15.359 my wife would disagree with saying that I feel like I have no ego. 264 00:20:18.559 --> 00:20:23.119 Wife do that, yes, But ultimately it's really about serving the story, 265 00:20:23.160 --> 00:20:30.000 about telling the stories that that you want to tell. And you and 266 00:20:30.640 --> 00:20:34.720 Alex, what you try to do is try to keep ego out of any 267 00:20:34.839 --> 00:20:41.920 decisions that you make, which is often very difficult for artists to do, 268 00:20:42.079 --> 00:20:45.759 whether you're a painter or whether you position, you know, whether you're a 269 00:20:45.839 --> 00:20:51.799 filmmaker. Jeff Bridges said to me, I don't care what happens to a 270 00:20:51.799 --> 00:20:53.880 movie when it comes out in terms of winning awards. That that the reward 271 00:20:55.160 --> 00:20:59.160 is in the journey for him, and it's the experience and the more movies 272 00:20:59.160 --> 00:21:03.640 that I make that's the truth. It's when you and a group of gifted 273 00:21:03.680 --> 00:21:08.079 collaborators are are all striving for the same goal, and I think that's really 274 00:21:10.200 --> 00:21:15.920 important. I think also I have tended to her to figure out how to 275 00:21:15.400 --> 00:21:22.079 how to tell the truth about how tragic and unfair life is without losing hope. 276 00:21:22.720 --> 00:21:25.799 You know, most narratives lie to the audience about how life works out 277 00:21:26.279 --> 00:21:30.559 and shocking. Yes, and Hollywood does that. No, you're kidding me, 278 00:21:33.000 --> 00:21:37.039 Yes, So that's their bread and butter, it is. Yeah. 279 00:21:37.079 --> 00:21:40.960 So for me, really it's it's it's about, you know, working through 280 00:21:40.960 --> 00:21:45.319 the difficulties in my life by dressing them through art. Fair enough, fair 281 00:21:45.400 --> 00:21:49.079 enough. Now, the one thing that's not spoken of a lot about in 282 00:21:49.960 --> 00:21:55.160 the filmmaking space, especially in the film schools and for young filmmakers coming up 283 00:21:55.519 --> 00:21:59.599 is the politics of the set. As a first time director, you know, 284 00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:03.079 you have collaborators who you might have chosen wrong, you know, incorrectly 285 00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:07.480 that you didn't align with what you wanted, or try to enforce their vision 286 00:22:07.559 --> 00:22:11.279 on top of the director. To have you dealt with any of that, 287 00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.720 and if you have, how did you overcome it? No, frankly I 288 00:22:14.759 --> 00:22:18.920 haven't because I didn't think so, having not gone to film school. Actually, 289 00:22:18.160 --> 00:22:22.599 all six of my films have been incredibly harmonious. Now I work with 290 00:22:22.640 --> 00:22:26.759 the same crew largely over and over because we have a shorthand, and you 291 00:22:26.799 --> 00:22:32.319 know, my films are not inexpensive, and every moment counts in every minute 292 00:22:32.480 --> 00:22:36.000 is you know, you can just hear the dollar signs. I think it 293 00:22:36.039 --> 00:22:41.920 was Kubrick again who who said that. Actually prepping as much easier editing as 294 00:22:42.000 --> 00:22:45.680 you're much more relaxed, But when you're shooting, it's like you're in this 295 00:22:45.799 --> 00:22:49.799 cauldron of fire because you have to make so many decisions every day and you're 296 00:22:49.839 --> 00:22:57.559 dealing with production designers, actors, cameramen and women, sound everything is coming 297 00:22:57.559 --> 00:23:03.680 together at once. So the key is how do you hire people that see 298 00:23:03.720 --> 00:23:06.279 the world as you do, who will make push you to become a better 299 00:23:06.279 --> 00:23:08.440 filmmaker. Because I didn't go to film school, and all of my film 300 00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:15.039 school is reading as much as I can about film directors watching their movies over 301 00:23:15.119 --> 00:23:18.359 and over and over with the sound off. How do they move the camera 302 00:23:18.480 --> 00:23:23.799 most importantly when they don't move it, how they use composition and missle scene 303 00:23:23.880 --> 00:23:30.079 and lighting staging to help tell a story, And which is more and more 304 00:23:30.119 --> 00:23:37.839 difficult because we're living in the most impatient of ages, because yes, right, 305 00:23:37.599 --> 00:23:42.680 and because we're getting our instanment in social media, we're getting instant gratification 306 00:23:44.319 --> 00:23:48.799 constantly, and that we were no longer patient. We have to really resist 307 00:23:48.799 --> 00:23:52.200 that when you're making a film, because you want to put an audience today 308 00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:56.640 in from of two thousand and one, Oh, I do what that was 309 00:23:56.079 --> 00:24:02.799 Barry Lyndon the Odd Father even and they'd never heard of these actors or seen 310 00:24:02.799 --> 00:24:07.079 that. People would find it it's painfully slow, boring, and if they 311 00:24:07.079 --> 00:24:08.920 were watching home, they would turn it off. Not everybody, but a 312 00:24:08.960 --> 00:24:12.039 lot of people. And you have to resist that. You have to say 313 00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:15.160 Okay, well this is the story I'm telling. People might find it to 314 00:24:15.160 --> 00:24:18.240 be a slow burn, but I've said this before. Making you know, 315 00:24:18.519 --> 00:24:22.720 experiencing a film in a cinema is not like getting an enema. You don't 316 00:24:22.599 --> 00:24:26.680 want to want it to get over as fast as possible. Luxuriate in Stanley 317 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:33.559 Kubrick's world, or in Jane Campion's world or countless other filmmakers that have inspired 318 00:24:33.599 --> 00:24:37.880 me for years. Right, that's the key. So so it's really about 319 00:24:38.240 --> 00:24:44.839 trying to essue any ego. Hire people that see the world as you do, 320 00:24:45.039 --> 00:24:49.039 know their work incredibly well, take meetings with them, and then you'll 321 00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:52.839 just learn to push one another. I mean, even when you work with 322 00:24:52.920 --> 00:24:56.839 trusted collaborators, there will be moments on set where there is storm underin. 323 00:24:57.200 --> 00:25:02.599 As the director and is the and as the producer, you have to be 324 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:06.680 able to solve those issues. You also have to be open and realize that 325 00:25:06.759 --> 00:25:10.839 all ideas are welcome, and that is the key. You can't only just 326 00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:14.680 say it's my way. You have to very strong vision, but it's clear 327 00:25:14.799 --> 00:25:18.839 that there are people that you hire who will bring ideas to make you're not 328 00:25:18.880 --> 00:25:22.119 only a better filmmaker, but makes the film better. Now, how do 329 00:25:22.160 --> 00:25:30.240 you approach the writing process because your work is so character driven? How do 330 00:25:30.279 --> 00:25:36.079 you just deal with the writing processes? Quite quite frankly, and I work 331 00:25:36.279 --> 00:25:41.119 very long stretches from early in the morning through lunch, take a break, 332 00:25:41.319 --> 00:25:45.200 and then get back at it, because I do kind of what Copola did, 333 00:25:45.200 --> 00:25:48.519 which is like this vomit draft where you don't go back and edit. 334 00:25:48.000 --> 00:25:52.160 You literally write the story from page one to page one to twenty however long 335 00:25:52.200 --> 00:25:56.640 it is, without going back to edit and reading it, and it very 336 00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:00.400 often will be terrible to see if this is a story that you would want 337 00:26:00.440 --> 00:26:04.079 to race out to see on Friday night. That's my litmus test. And 338 00:26:04.119 --> 00:26:07.880 before I became a writer, I would study Robert Town's work. I would 339 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:15.319 study Freakin's work. I would study the network, Pattishis whoever, and I 340 00:26:15.319 --> 00:26:18.720 would try to understand these are all people who write characters. How is it 341 00:26:19.160 --> 00:26:25.000 that they're telling the story largely through subtext, and they're telling it visually, 342 00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:29.839 they're telling it with spare dialogue, all these sort of things that you just 343 00:26:29.960 --> 00:26:33.240 keep writing. Writing is rewriting, and eventually you come to a place where 344 00:26:33.559 --> 00:26:37.039 we feel like you can share a screenplay with Robert Duval, who was the 345 00:26:37.039 --> 00:26:41.880 first one to read Crazy Heart. Or now the person who reads all my 346 00:26:41.920 --> 00:26:45.720 scripts, whether he's in them or notaa's Christian Vale, right. Christiano's been 347 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:49.440 making films since he's twelve. He'll tell you if the story of the character 348 00:26:49.519 --> 00:26:53.839 is working quickly. And it's great to have. And I'm very fortunate to 349 00:26:53.880 --> 00:27:00.359 have those kind of trusted collaborators who read my things and help guide me, 350 00:27:00.440 --> 00:27:03.960 because so often and even in the editorial process, you get very snowbarn snowblarn, 351 00:27:04.240 --> 00:27:07.200 and you can't quite see think things are great. But then there are 352 00:27:07.200 --> 00:27:11.799 other people who will come in and say this didn't quite land for me, 353 00:27:11.880 --> 00:27:15.319 this isn't working, this is overstated, this is understated. So all of 354 00:27:15.359 --> 00:27:19.119 those sort of things. I'm just getting a text from my pow Casey Affleck 355 00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:27.880 right now speaking so Alex. That's really it, man, It's about how 356 00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:33.400 do you use other people's ideas. Look at I mean, I can't say 357 00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:41.680 enough to young filmmakers read great screenplays. See not only what are writers trying 358 00:27:41.680 --> 00:27:45.319 to express, but what they aren't. So much is left to the unspoken, 359 00:27:47.160 --> 00:27:51.480 and that will make a real connection with the audience and I tell people 360 00:27:51.519 --> 00:27:57.240 all the time first time filmmakers tell the truth, write stories that are close 361 00:27:57.240 --> 00:28:00.920 to you, that you know in person. Similize everything, because then if 362 00:28:00.960 --> 00:28:06.319 you do it, your theme will become universal and it will speak to most 363 00:28:06.319 --> 00:28:10.759 everybody because we're all suffering, right, and we all if you deign to 364 00:28:10.799 --> 00:28:12.440 make the kind of films that I do, and you want to move people 365 00:28:12.880 --> 00:28:22.759 or you want to challenge people, A great filmmaker who shall remain unnamed, 366 00:28:22.799 --> 00:28:26.759 once said to me, and this guy's one of the greats. He says, 367 00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:30.480 scot up, everybody likes your film, it's likely not very good, 368 00:28:33.480 --> 00:28:38.400 very true. Now do you outline at all? If I'm adapting something, 369 00:28:38.839 --> 00:28:44.880 if I'm writing an original funny because I use Kubrick again, because I've read 370 00:28:44.920 --> 00:28:47.880 everything he's ever said, well, me too. My friend to me to 371 00:28:48.000 --> 00:28:52.559 watch all of his interviews, and he would never direct an original screenplay. 372 00:28:52.559 --> 00:28:55.759 It always has to be based on existing material, because he says, you 373 00:28:55.799 --> 00:28:59.559 can sit down in one sitting and tell this is a story that I want 374 00:28:59.599 --> 00:29:02.440 to tell, this is what I want to spend the next five years of 375 00:29:02.480 --> 00:29:11.119 my life. Outlining can be really quite helpful if there's existing The pale blue 376 00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.599 eye, very sprawling novel, more characters than I could that I could or 377 00:29:15.680 --> 00:29:19.880 should explore in a two hour timeframe. Different if you're making a limited series 378 00:29:22.880 --> 00:29:26.519 something that's longer and more sprawling, you should certainly outline. But our original 379 00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:32.759 screenplay it helps. It helps to give you guideposts as you're writing, for 380 00:29:32.839 --> 00:29:41.200 sure. But certainly if you're adapting something and it's really all about finding the 381 00:29:41.319 --> 00:29:47.519 essence of the novel or nonfiction piece or magazine ricle, whatever it is, 382 00:29:47.519 --> 00:29:52.920 your adapted podcast, we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, 383 00:29:56.559 --> 00:30:00.240 and now back to the show, And then it helps to outline that. 384 00:30:00.359 --> 00:30:06.240 For sure. There's also something very free about not knowing where a narrative is 385 00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:10.039 going. You had a kernel of an idea, like out of the furnace, 386 00:30:10.039 --> 00:30:12.200 and off I went and just wrote. And I was doing press for 387 00:30:12.240 --> 00:30:17.480 Crazy Heart Albums in Pittsburgh, drove over to Braddock, Pennsylvania, wrote very 388 00:30:17.519 --> 00:30:22.400 specifically for all of these locations, took images out of that king the narrative. 389 00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:32.920 So I do both. I've just just adapted something that I hope to 390 00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:37.880 make certainly my next number or the film after that. And I didn't outline 391 00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:41.599 I'd read the novel four or five times. William Goldman had certainly once he 392 00:30:41.640 --> 00:30:45.279 realized he was going to read something and read it two or three times. 393 00:30:45.480 --> 00:30:48.480 Did I like it the second time as much as the first? What are 394 00:30:48.480 --> 00:30:52.319 the themes? Who are the characters that I'm going to excize? Who the 395 00:30:52.480 --> 00:30:56.480 characters I'm going to focus on? That's the piece that I just that I've 396 00:30:56.519 --> 00:31:02.759 just adapted that. When you have someone who's given you a great piece of 397 00:31:04.319 --> 00:31:08.920 source material, like, for instance, Lewis Bayard and The Pale Blue, 398 00:31:11.079 --> 00:31:15.799 you can take that and if the author knows and understands that a film is 399 00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:18.720 very different than a book, you could just use a seed and off you 400 00:31:18.759 --> 00:31:25.440 go. So what really is is project continuing, whether I outline or not. 401 00:31:26.440 --> 00:31:30.319 I don't do it always now as directors, there's always that day on 402 00:31:30.359 --> 00:31:33.119 set where we feel like the entire world's come and crashing down around you. 403 00:31:33.160 --> 00:31:38.119 The sun's yea every day there is that, But there's that one day that's 404 00:31:38.160 --> 00:31:41.640 like, oh, I don't think we're going to make it. That day 405 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:44.640 that you like, holy cow, what was that day on any of your 406 00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.079 projects? And how did you overcome it? Well? You never have enough 407 00:31:48.279 --> 00:31:52.759 time ever, Honestly, even though you've got and I've got fifty five days 408 00:31:52.759 --> 00:31:56.319 to shoot this Jesus, I had twenty four for Crazy Heart, and then 409 00:31:56.519 --> 00:32:04.119 every day by the time you're finished. There are no easy days on a 410 00:32:04.119 --> 00:32:07.880 film set. One of them, of course, is is if you have 411 00:32:07.960 --> 00:32:14.599 to vacate a location because it's a restaurant that you've brought it out, or 412 00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:19.920 someone's house in the ray to move back in, or it can be because 413 00:32:19.960 --> 00:32:27.279 you have monsoonal rains coming. And that would have been in Hostiles where I 414 00:32:27.440 --> 00:32:32.079 was shooting the sequence towards the end of the film where Rory Cochran's character before 415 00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:40.480 he before he meets his maker, and it's pouring rain and it's I think 416 00:32:40.519 --> 00:32:46.000 it's probably thirty eight degrees. It's going to be snowing later. Rory is 417 00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:51.200 dressed only in a very thin shirt, but we hadn't quite gotten the scene, 418 00:32:51.200 --> 00:32:54.440 but I could tell that he was he was very affected by the weather 419 00:32:54.559 --> 00:32:59.960 and was starting to hypothermic. I'm not a doctor. I'm supposing I can 420 00:33:00.039 --> 00:33:05.039 see how it was affecting him. And these monsoonal rains up in the continental 421 00:33:05.079 --> 00:33:07.839 divide you just can't control. But it was giving me everything that I wanted 422 00:33:07.920 --> 00:33:12.480 in the scene. So you're trying to balance somebody's health with also trying to 423 00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:16.960 know that you have to vacate a location vacator location and trying to balance the 424 00:33:16.960 --> 00:33:20.400 scene. But and I would go to Rory, I would say, listen, 425 00:33:20.440 --> 00:33:27.599 I think we have this, but I'm also very concerned that you are 426 00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:30.720 experiencing something now that you shouldn't be. No, Scott, I haven't quite 427 00:33:30.759 --> 00:33:34.440 gotten it. This is what Rory would say, We're going to keep pushing. 428 00:33:34.759 --> 00:33:37.799 And then you're sitting behind the monitor next to the lens and you're thinking, 429 00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:39.240 Okay, man, I've got to stop him because he'll keep going till 430 00:33:40.079 --> 00:33:44.440 until he falls down, because he's that kind of actor who's so great Rory 431 00:33:44.440 --> 00:33:52.160 Cotton as I've worked with so scenes like that that really pressure you. Or 432 00:33:52.240 --> 00:33:57.279 when the monsoon rains and rattlesnakes have come out of the ground they're everywhere, 433 00:33:57.279 --> 00:34:00.480 but you're still shooting. You know, those sort of things you said about 434 00:34:00.559 --> 00:34:04.799 really balancing, and you know, if you're eight ten thousand feet above sea 435 00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:08.400 level and oxygen is very difficult for people. Always trying to balance those sort 436 00:34:08.440 --> 00:34:14.760 of things, or shooting the Pale Blue Eye and it's eight below zero, 437 00:34:15.559 --> 00:34:21.840 and those are long days and you want to make certain that the crew are 438 00:34:22.000 --> 00:34:23.559 well taken care of. But if you're the writer, director, producer, 439 00:34:23.559 --> 00:34:27.599 and you're on a location and you're focused on that and then but you're also 440 00:34:28.119 --> 00:34:32.480 concerned about the crew's well being, you know, those are things that you 441 00:34:32.599 --> 00:34:37.199 really have to juggle as a filmmaker that they certainly don't teach you in film 442 00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:38.840 school. Having not gone to film st I don't know for sure, but 443 00:34:38.880 --> 00:34:47.880 I suspect they don't. Elevation. I missed the Rattlesnake Bears suing class when 444 00:34:47.880 --> 00:34:51.599 I went. At least it wasn't there. It wasn't in the curriculum when 445 00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:55.239 I went, So right, maybe there should be a class on that. 446 00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:01.840 I mean, if someone's listening at USC for hell at us to have that 447 00:35:01.880 --> 00:35:09.039 exactly now. I've talked to so many writers that when they are when they're 448 00:35:09.039 --> 00:35:13.280 writing, and it happens. It's happened to me, it happens to every 449 00:35:13.280 --> 00:35:19.000 writer. I think is when you're writing, you you're almost channeling, You're 450 00:35:19.000 --> 00:35:22.760 almost like it's something flowing through you to what point, to the point where 451 00:35:22.119 --> 00:35:25.320 after you're done you look at it and you go holy crap who wrote this? 452 00:35:25.320 --> 00:35:30.159 This is good almost every time, and quite frankly, it comes from 453 00:35:30.199 --> 00:35:32.199 a very deep, subconscious place. I mean, you're very conscious as you're 454 00:35:32.199 --> 00:35:36.280 writing it, but you're not questioning it. My wife asks me that all 455 00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.079 the time when she when she reads something like Jesus, where did this come 456 00:35:38.079 --> 00:35:43.599 from? And you can't quite really understand it. And quite frankly, the 457 00:35:43.679 --> 00:35:47.280 more films you make and the more experience you can come now as a film 458 00:35:47.320 --> 00:35:52.000 director, but as a film writer, the more difficult it gets about saying 459 00:35:52.079 --> 00:36:00.000 less and not over imparting to the audience and trying to give them a numb 460 00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:07.320 information to keep them satisfied, but not too much information. And that's where 461 00:36:07.360 --> 00:36:10.079 you become more conscious about it. But generally, as you're writing, if 462 00:36:10.119 --> 00:36:14.280 you're in that flow and that stream of consciousness and it's coming from the place, 463 00:36:14.480 --> 00:36:17.239 don't question it and don't stop. So it seems like it's, you 464 00:36:17.239 --> 00:36:21.840 know, we could call it the other side the ether. Wherever ideas come 465 00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:24.800 from? I think Spielberg talked about it, and I think Prince and Michael 466 00:36:24.840 --> 00:36:29.239 Jackson talked about it as well, like where ideas come from? And I 467 00:36:29.280 --> 00:36:31.920 think Spielberg said in an interview where he's like, if an idea comes to 468 00:36:31.960 --> 00:36:37.679 me, I know that if I don't act on it, in a week 469 00:36:37.880 --> 00:36:40.639 or two, I'll hear that Marty got it or someone else got it, 470 00:36:40.679 --> 00:36:45.199 because the idea needs to be birthed into the world, and they chose you 471 00:36:45.239 --> 00:36:46.960 first, but if you don't move they'll move on to the next one. 472 00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:51.559 Look, and those are our three geniuses that you just mentioned. So I 473 00:36:51.559 --> 00:36:55.760 wouldn't question any of that, but I think he's probably right, and I 474 00:36:55.840 --> 00:37:02.239 try not to. I try not to question anything honestly in terms of where 475 00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:07.159 it comes from, because when you make the kind of films that that I 476 00:37:07.320 --> 00:37:15.000 make, you you have to understand that no two people see the same film, 477 00:37:15.840 --> 00:37:21.599 right, And which is why I think it's so frankly absurd to rank 478 00:37:21.760 --> 00:37:25.320 art as we do in America. What's the best? You know? Who 479 00:37:25.320 --> 00:37:30.039 do you who do you think is a better painter? Side Twomblei or Jackson 480 00:37:30.079 --> 00:37:37.880 Pollock? You're going to have varying responses right from a number of people when 481 00:37:37.880 --> 00:37:40.960 you present them with that, or who's better Miles or Coltraining, Right, 482 00:37:42.000 --> 00:37:45.159 those were things and the fact that we that we rank art is something that 483 00:37:45.280 --> 00:37:49.119 for whole nother discussion, Alex, But you can't really be concerned with any 484 00:37:49.159 --> 00:37:55.239 of that when you are making a film or when you write who come from 485 00:37:55.719 --> 00:37:59.840 don't know? How are people going to receive this? Oh god no, 486 00:38:00.079 --> 00:38:02.480 I think that No, you have to just let it come out. And 487 00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:09.840 that's where I think a lot of writers generic and were easily forgotten. One 488 00:38:09.880 --> 00:38:15.239 thing I've noticed with your work is it seems that there hasn't been a drop 489 00:38:15.280 --> 00:38:20.079 off, meaning that the level that you were able to set, the bar 490 00:38:20.159 --> 00:38:22.840 you were able to set with Crazy Heart, you've been able to keep that 491 00:38:22.920 --> 00:38:27.039 film after film on the level of the writing and the direct and because to 492 00:38:27.079 --> 00:38:30.280 be honest, and I know you know this as well, there are directors 493 00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:35.440 who pop. But then they overthink or they and then you could start seeing 494 00:38:35.440 --> 00:38:38.320 it in their work, their work starts to drop off. Unfortunately. Do 495 00:38:38.400 --> 00:38:43.760 you think when you wrote Crazy Heart where you were basically there was no pressure 496 00:38:43.880 --> 00:38:47.360 to write Crazy Heart? Oh? Nobody, No. So it was such 497 00:38:47.360 --> 00:38:52.480 a freeing experience that you let go. Do you are you able to continuously 498 00:38:52.679 --> 00:38:55.480 do that with your work or do you start to do you get in your 499 00:38:55.480 --> 00:39:00.280 own way and stop that flow sometimes from happening? Well, both only because 500 00:39:01.639 --> 00:39:12.480 my work explores the darker corners of the human psyche, and since Crazy Heart 501 00:39:12.480 --> 00:39:17.920 have gotten progressively darker. Although Pale Blue Eyes certainly it's not that, I 502 00:39:17.920 --> 00:39:24.559 mean, that's much more accessible. So you try to guard against that only 503 00:39:24.639 --> 00:39:29.360 because you know that your films affect people in the ways. I've been to 504 00:39:29.400 --> 00:39:34.079 countless screenings over the last six movies where people have come out of my films 505 00:39:34.119 --> 00:39:37.800 as though they were just you know, festivals screenings, as they were just 506 00:39:37.840 --> 00:39:43.280 hit by a two by four, and you can tell that they're deeply moved 507 00:39:43.440 --> 00:39:50.360 or deeply angered or upset, whatever it is. So you know, you're 508 00:39:50.400 --> 00:39:52.480 sometimes mindful of that, like you know, and I never try to make 509 00:39:52.519 --> 00:39:55.039 the same film twice. You make a music film, you make a gangster 510 00:39:55.119 --> 00:40:00.880 movie, a western horror, family horror, trauma with antlers, and now 511 00:40:00.920 --> 00:40:09.840 this we'll be right back after a word from our sponsor, and now back 512 00:40:09.880 --> 00:40:15.119 to the show. So I never try to repeat myself. But I also 513 00:40:15.280 --> 00:40:19.880 never let the audience off the hook, and that is something that you sometimes 514 00:40:19.920 --> 00:40:22.280 have to be reminded of because look, we want, I mean, movies 515 00:40:22.280 --> 00:40:27.440 are an expensive endeavor, and their investments want their movies at least to break 516 00:40:27.440 --> 00:40:30.280 even, but they want to make money. You know, it is cliched 517 00:40:30.320 --> 00:40:32.199 as it is. It is show business and not show art. So I've 518 00:40:32.199 --> 00:40:39.079 been lucky to make the kind of films that I make. And quite frankly, 519 00:40:39.119 --> 00:40:44.800 I think actors and other directors, whether they're in my contemporaries or people 520 00:40:44.880 --> 00:40:49.079 that I have long long admired and became a filmmaker because of them, have 521 00:40:49.199 --> 00:40:52.039 embraced my work in ways that the public just isn't aware of, and that 522 00:40:52.159 --> 00:40:59.800 really keeps you going. Walter Hill got an email from Walter today telling me 523 00:40:59.840 --> 00:41:02.639 how much that he loved Pale Blue Eye and what he thinks is my same 524 00:41:04.079 --> 00:41:06.599 reason. I bring it up because you just mentioned it and how he's seen 525 00:41:06.639 --> 00:41:13.800 my career a send. And you know, I think people are thankful when 526 00:41:13.880 --> 00:41:20.679 directors really really respect the audience and want to give them something that's challenging and 527 00:41:20.760 --> 00:41:24.119 something that's different and most importantly, something that and I do believe this will 528 00:41:24.119 --> 00:41:28.480 stand the test of time. Let me, I gotta ask you this question 529 00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:32.960 because I mean we you and I are both of a generation that remembers all 530 00:41:34.000 --> 00:41:37.119 those great filmmakers you talked about, all those great movies from the seventies and 531 00:41:37.159 --> 00:41:44.320 the sixties and the eighties, and I feel like those kind of filmmakers, 532 00:41:44.360 --> 00:41:49.280 and to be honest, filmmakers like yourself aren't a dangered species right now because 533 00:41:49.320 --> 00:41:53.079 of what's happening in the in the business. There's it's it's just getting crazier 534 00:41:53.079 --> 00:41:58.840 and crazier. And if it wasn't for people like Netflix. You know, 535 00:41:58.880 --> 00:42:01.039 a Pale Blue Eye, which is is your new movie that's not getting a 536 00:42:01.079 --> 00:42:06.599 theatrical release today, that's not being made today, It just it wouldn't get 537 00:42:06.599 --> 00:42:09.719 made unless it was with a streamer who wants to do that kind of work 538 00:42:12.519 --> 00:42:17.639 because the studios. Honestly, if Scorsese is having a problem getting his films 539 00:42:17.679 --> 00:42:23.960 made and yes to go to Netflix to get we're all in trouble so making 540 00:42:24.000 --> 00:42:30.639 his new film right exactly. So what do you think about the future of 541 00:42:30.639 --> 00:42:34.239 where we're going, Because as a film lover, I'm seeing I'm seeing a 542 00:42:34.280 --> 00:42:37.599 problem. The new generation coming up its problem. I I mean, Christian 543 00:42:37.639 --> 00:42:43.840 and I just spoke about it today because The Payable Eye is debuting on Netflix. 544 00:42:44.320 --> 00:42:45.960 It's been in theaters for the last two weeks. I mean, I'm 545 00:42:46.480 --> 00:42:52.199 eternally grateful that Netflix have allowed this film, should people want to see it 546 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.159 from the big screen experience, to debut in the top markets all over the 547 00:42:55.159 --> 00:42:59.960 world. We've got two weeks to see it in a theater if you want 548 00:43:00.079 --> 00:43:04.519 to see that, and should you want to wait until it comes to your 549 00:43:04.519 --> 00:43:07.119 house, which is what most people will do to your home theater, that's 550 00:43:07.159 --> 00:43:09.360 how the majority of people will see my film, then that's how they're going 551 00:43:09.440 --> 00:43:16.559 to see it. I am eternally grateful that Netflix, Apple, Amazon are 552 00:43:16.599 --> 00:43:22.559 making films that the legacy studios no longer want to make, because those are 553 00:43:22.599 --> 00:43:29.039 the films that the reason I became a filmmaker, and the movies that still 554 00:43:29.039 --> 00:43:35.400 excite me. I mean, I've been asked to do major superhero films or 555 00:43:35.400 --> 00:43:40.840 the kind of films that guarantee an audience. I've been offered us many times 556 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.199 and have as of yet elected not to do them because I want to tell 557 00:43:45.239 --> 00:43:51.800 these stories, stories that make me want to race out to see a film 558 00:43:51.800 --> 00:43:54.639 on Friday night. It's getting tougher and tougher because if you look at this 559 00:43:54.800 --> 00:44:00.559 fall in some of my pals, their films that debut ins animals, just 560 00:44:00.119 --> 00:44:06.559 no one came to see them. And these are excellent films and made the 561 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:13.440 highest uh craftsmanship, in great performances, and it's it's a bit terrifying, 562 00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:20.519 and we're you know, we're heading into uh potentially uh strike here. We 563 00:44:21.639 --> 00:44:29.559 that's right, potentially could be facing would be facing you know, economic headwinds. 564 00:44:30.360 --> 00:44:34.320 So all of these things make it more difficult for people to get their 565 00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:38.480 films made, certainly more difficult than than it does for Scorsese or or or 566 00:44:40.559 --> 00:44:45.119 the all those land most of myself whoever, are making you know, challenging 567 00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:52.880 adult dramas. But still it's never easy. And and I fear that uh 568 00:44:52.559 --> 00:44:59.840 people, until we're really beyond COVID, which we certainly are not. H 569 00:45:00.159 --> 00:45:02.159 I think an older audience won't come back, and I think ticket price is 570 00:45:02.159 --> 00:45:06.039 probably going to have to come down to to entice people to come back to 571 00:45:06.639 --> 00:45:08.199 the cinemas. But I can assure you because if you look around in the 572 00:45:08.239 --> 00:45:14.199 world, there's such great cinema being made, and those are the films that 573 00:45:14.239 --> 00:45:21.559 I most respond to. Quite frankly, international filmmakers who've inspired me a great 574 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:25.840 deal over the last fifteen twenty years, they're still getting their films made. 575 00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:31.840 Their home countries sometimes help subsidize them, which we don't quite have here. 576 00:45:35.159 --> 00:45:37.480 It is getting tougher. But then every year movies come out and you think, 577 00:45:37.519 --> 00:45:43.119 Okay, great, this is why we love cinema. It's just just 578 00:45:43.159 --> 00:45:47.079 getting harder and harder, Alex. And it's what I'll call any filmmaker, 579 00:45:47.800 --> 00:45:53.880 you should make the film you're about to make as though at your last Yeah, 580 00:45:54.039 --> 00:45:59.320 and it's you know a lot of times. Well, first of all, 581 00:45:59.320 --> 00:46:01.079 I think what you're said about the foreign films. We're getting access to 582 00:46:01.159 --> 00:46:07.079 them so much easier now because of streaming services. They're just coming in and 583 00:46:07.159 --> 00:46:09.760 something like Parasite winning the Oscar and things like that that would have never happened 584 00:46:10.679 --> 00:46:15.480 ten twenty years ago, which just wouldn't have happened. So that's a good 585 00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:19.639 Those are good signs. But the younger generation of filmmakers coming out, because 586 00:46:19.639 --> 00:46:22.880 I teach these filmmakers, they listen to me all the time, and they 587 00:46:22.920 --> 00:46:28.519 watched the show, and and I see them at festivals and I see them 588 00:46:28.519 --> 00:46:31.280 at events and I talk to them, and it's just it's so much harder 589 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:37.440 now to get stuff off the ground than it was before, and especially to 590 00:46:37.480 --> 00:46:42.599 tell the kind of challenging stories that you're telling, and I mean, any 591 00:46:42.639 --> 00:46:45.800 of Kubrick's films, any of them. Try to release them today. Any 592 00:46:46.199 --> 00:46:52.280 Kubrick film today, release it. It's not even possible. Can you imagine 593 00:46:52.639 --> 00:46:58.199 the Clockwork Orange I watched the other day, just the first the first twenty 594 00:46:58.239 --> 00:47:00.960 minutes of that. I'm like, you released that today. It's just not 595 00:47:01.480 --> 00:47:06.079 in today's environment. You can't release a film like that or Taxi Driver. 596 00:47:06.679 --> 00:47:13.559 No, are you kidding? Are your students disparited from from following their passions 597 00:47:13.639 --> 00:47:16.119 or do they just going to be a tougher road to hope? Well, 598 00:47:16.159 --> 00:47:21.119 this is the thing, man, I think that filmmakers, the younger film 599 00:47:21.239 --> 00:47:24.960 generation coming up, are still stuck a lot of times in the glory days, 600 00:47:24.960 --> 00:47:30.679 which in many ways for our generation was the nineties, which was the 601 00:47:30.719 --> 00:47:34.880 independent film movement, the sun Dance movement, where and I've spoken to a 602 00:47:34.920 --> 00:47:37.840 lot of these filmmakers, you know, the Ed Burns and the Rober rodriguezz 603 00:47:37.840 --> 00:47:42.360 and the Tarantinos, these guys that they were legendary stories of what happened in 604 00:47:42.400 --> 00:47:45.239 the nineties, and they're stuck into that world. And I think that that's 605 00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:49.119 the path. And I keep yelling from the top of the mountain, this 606 00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:52.119 is not the way anymore, as you can't. I talked to Ed Burns 607 00:47:52.119 --> 00:47:57.039 about Brothers McMullen. That movie wouldn't make it today. Clerks wouldn't make it 608 00:47:57.079 --> 00:48:01.400 today. El Mariachi wouldn't make it today. Flacker wouldn't make it today. 609 00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:06.239 It's deep there and and they think that that's the path. So then I 610 00:48:06.280 --> 00:48:08.079 have to kind of break that illusion a bit and then they go, well 611 00:48:08.119 --> 00:48:12.719 what do I do? And I go, you the game is so different 612 00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:15.960 now, and it's so much easier to make a film, but it's so 613 00:48:16.039 --> 00:48:20.719 much harder to get it seen because when when we were coming up, it 614 00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:23.880 was impossible to make a film because you needed thirty five, you needed sixteen 615 00:48:23.960 --> 00:48:27.880 if you were lucky. And then you have to really understand technology. You 616 00:48:27.960 --> 00:48:30.800 really need to understand lighting. Now anyone can make, you know. I 617 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:34.559 had Sean Baker on a few a couple times on my show It what he 618 00:48:34.599 --> 00:48:38.920 did with Tangerine with the iPhone and cameras are so cheap and things look so 619 00:48:39.039 --> 00:48:43.880 good. Sean's doing it the right way, Sean, No, Sean is 620 00:48:43.920 --> 00:48:45.760 amazing, and he's you know Red Rocket. I love Red Rocket. I 621 00:48:45.800 --> 00:48:50.480 saw that in the theater shot at sixteen. It was great, but that 622 00:48:50.639 --> 00:48:53.639 but that it's it's I think people are starting to get disheartened a bit, 623 00:48:53.960 --> 00:48:59.760 and I think, what where our generation looked into the nineties, let's say, 624 00:49:00.159 --> 00:49:02.119 for hope, And of course obviously the seventies and the eighties and the 625 00:49:02.119 --> 00:49:07.199 sixties and the great filmmakers and the legends were kind of like if you remember 626 00:49:07.199 --> 00:49:13.280 when everybody wanted to grow up to be a rock star, right then in 627 00:49:13.320 --> 00:49:16.480 the nineties, everybody wanted to grow up to be a director because Quentin made 628 00:49:16.519 --> 00:49:21.079 it so cool and Robert made it so cool, and it was just like 629 00:49:21.159 --> 00:49:23.920 everybody, yeah, Soderberg, everybody was so cool to be a director. 630 00:49:24.599 --> 00:49:30.760 Now, the younger generation then they want to be content creators. They want 631 00:49:30.800 --> 00:49:36.039 to be YouTubers to tell their stories, and they're able to monetize there much 632 00:49:36.079 --> 00:49:38.480 faster than they could with film. And then don't get me started about film 633 00:49:38.480 --> 00:49:43.480 distribution, which is a whole other world that I'm deep into as far independent 634 00:49:43.519 --> 00:49:47.000 film distribution. So it's just a difficult, it's so hard man at certain 635 00:49:47.079 --> 00:49:51.239 levels. Yeah, you're going to get the Ryan Couglers that come out of 636 00:49:51.280 --> 00:49:54.880 film school and make some great films in your film like crazy heart these but 637 00:49:54.920 --> 00:50:00.360 these are anomalies. We'll be right back for a word from our sponsor, 638 00:50:04.960 --> 00:50:08.679 and now back to the show. I mean your stories and anomaly right. 639 00:50:09.159 --> 00:50:13.079 So, I don't know, I don't know where this conversation is going, 640 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:15.480 but I just love to hear your thoughts on where you think from your point 641 00:50:15.480 --> 00:50:17.760 of view. Well, now you may just crawl up in the fetal position, 642 00:50:21.239 --> 00:50:27.840 Jesus Alan. Look Gamel del Toro, who writes my film Antlers, 643 00:50:28.000 --> 00:50:30.519 and yes, who's a great pal of mine. He said, Look, 644 00:50:30.559 --> 00:50:36.280 you know, if COVID remind us of anything, we know that we need 645 00:50:36.320 --> 00:50:39.920 food, we need shelter, we need medicines, and we need stories, 646 00:50:40.760 --> 00:50:46.760 and we will always need films. We will always need long form television, 647 00:50:47.480 --> 00:50:53.599 whether it's content as you mentioned on YouTube, whether it's short films. People 648 00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:59.239 need stories. We always have ever since when we go back to cavemen, 649 00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:05.079 right of course, of course, and cave art in the caves and France 650 00:51:05.159 --> 00:51:07.920 and elsewhere. So that I'm not concerned about what I am concerned about. 651 00:51:08.000 --> 00:51:15.719 The economic headwins the difficulty to entry for the marketplace, the marketplace and distribution. 652 00:51:16.480 --> 00:51:22.480 And my hope is that and I don't know that we're on the tail 653 00:51:22.559 --> 00:51:28.599 end of COVID. Hopefully I still have it now and it's as bad as 654 00:51:28.639 --> 00:51:34.320 ever, as intense as ever. Hopefully, once people come back, the 655 00:51:34.320 --> 00:51:38.800 older audience come back to cinemas, perhaps it will get easier. But I 656 00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:45.079 don't know that film going is the first choice for eighteen to thirty four year 657 00:51:45.079 --> 00:51:49.599 olds. I have kids. They love going to the cinema. They try 658 00:51:49.599 --> 00:51:52.800 to go as often as possible. But it's also because I'm a film director. 659 00:51:52.320 --> 00:51:55.840 Of course, friends love to go to the movies, but they're also 660 00:51:55.880 --> 00:52:00.440 on TikTok all the time, and they're on Instagram, and they're on YouTube 661 00:52:00.760 --> 00:52:07.280 phones YouTube. Yeah, so it's it's, uh, there are many things 662 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:15.280 that are challenging our time for movies. It's it's it's it's expensive and time 663 00:52:15.360 --> 00:52:19.159 consuming to get to the to the cinema. I hope that that changes. 664 00:52:19.239 --> 00:52:22.320 I hope that that that it will shake out with COVID and the legas. 665 00:52:22.320 --> 00:52:27.519 Studios now realize that making films like the films that I make, are more 666 00:52:27.559 --> 00:52:30.559 important. But it's really all about economics, always has been, but you 667 00:52:30.599 --> 00:52:36.079 know it has but I think that the studios are now run by corporations and 668 00:52:36.119 --> 00:52:39.039 by boards of directors. Oh, but before they were run by filmmakers, 669 00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:43.719 you know, you know, I mean arguably, Igor Bob Iger is probably 670 00:52:43.719 --> 00:52:45.840 the only guy who understands. And look what he's done with Disney, for 671 00:52:45.880 --> 00:52:50.440 God's sake, and God he's back, and think guy's back. He understood, 672 00:52:50.599 --> 00:52:55.000 he understands story telling, understands filmmaking. But I remember growing up, 673 00:52:55.000 --> 00:52:59.159 I worked at the video store and we would have movies like what about Bob, 674 00:52:59.800 --> 00:53:02.840 you know, and these smaller films not in Virginia home right exactly, 675 00:53:02.880 --> 00:53:07.320 So, these smaller films with big stars at nice budgets, you know, 676 00:53:07.440 --> 00:53:12.079 ten million, fifteen million, that there was a shot they'd do ten of 677 00:53:12.119 --> 00:53:15.000 those and one would pop and the other ones would do okay, and then 678 00:53:15.000 --> 00:53:17.920 maybe two or three would bomb. But they will all work together. And 679 00:53:17.960 --> 00:53:21.760 there was more content, more ideas, more things. And that's why we're 680 00:53:21.800 --> 00:53:25.199 going back to those times to mind those ideas, because everyone's terrified of doing 681 00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:30.000 that kind of stuff right now, where Netflix and Amazon and Apple aren't scared 682 00:53:30.039 --> 00:53:35.119 to do that because their business model is different, that's right. And I 683 00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:42.239 suspect that there are a lot of different streaming platforms which are expensive for people 684 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:46.559 to have six or eight of them. I imagine that there will be fewer 685 00:53:46.840 --> 00:53:53.400 going forward, but those will still be providing great content. And that's of 686 00:53:53.400 --> 00:54:00.639 course Netflix and Apple and Amazon Disney plus who are well capitalized. But then 687 00:54:00.679 --> 00:54:07.159 I think you'll probably also see some consolidation and uh, the less buyers, 688 00:54:07.280 --> 00:54:10.920 the worse off for all of us. Agreed, My friend agreed, that's 689 00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.599 without question. Have companies like Sony Pictures Classics and my good friends at Fox 690 00:54:15.639 --> 00:54:22.320 Searchlight who a couple of my films, and they and they really are run 691 00:54:22.360 --> 00:54:30.159 by filmmakers, films a year in and year out. They're great supporters of 692 00:54:30.440 --> 00:54:34.679 films A twenty four, yeah, twenty four four and uh and now and 693 00:54:34.800 --> 00:54:37.159 of course Netflix. Netflix has a whole division that will allow you to make 694 00:54:37.280 --> 00:54:43.480 Roma or Bardo or The Power of the Dog or The Pale Blue Eye or 695 00:54:44.119 --> 00:54:46.280 on and on and on, and hopefully we can continue to make that because 696 00:54:46.280 --> 00:54:52.079 there's so many young filmmakers who are listening to this podcast or your podcasts in 697 00:54:52.119 --> 00:54:57.840 general, who have stories to tell and should be absolutely and if you can, 698 00:54:58.039 --> 00:55:00.960 and if you have that burning desire that said, this is the only 699 00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:04.000 thing I can do with my life, which is ultimately what I said, 700 00:55:04.719 --> 00:55:07.800 then you'll find a way to succeed and tell your story. Amen, brother, 701 00:55:07.840 --> 00:55:12.119 I think that's the that's the key is it's not and and maybe you 702 00:55:12.119 --> 00:55:14.719 should maybe you can back me up on this. It's always not about the 703 00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:20.599 talent, but perseverance, because there's a lot of people who are who are 704 00:55:20.639 --> 00:55:22.880 around they're like, man, they're they're not the best, but they just 705 00:55:22.880 --> 00:55:28.760 stuck it out. They just survived. Oh yeah, we all know examples 706 00:55:28.800 --> 00:55:31.280 of that for sure. Yeah. And that's something they don't teach you in 707 00:55:31.280 --> 00:55:35.119 film school. It's like, I don't look Michael Jackson, Michael Jackson, 708 00:55:35.159 --> 00:55:38.320 Michael Jordan got cut from his high school team. Talent wasn't enough, Alan 709 00:55:38.480 --> 00:55:42.639 wasn't He had to go in hustle and work and build it up and keep 710 00:55:42.679 --> 00:55:45.000 going. And and that's something that I try to try to yell from the 711 00:55:45.039 --> 00:55:47.239 top of the mountain here as well. Yeah, Hey, if you have 712 00:55:47.360 --> 00:55:52.480 my pal Adam Sandler on to talk about Hustle, please, I would love 713 00:55:52.519 --> 00:55:54.239 to have Adam on the show. Please call him up and let him know 714 00:55:54.280 --> 00:55:59.920 because I love I don't know why he didn't come on Hustle. I love, 715 00:56:00.000 --> 00:56:04.039 by the way, I love that movie love that he's a man, 716 00:56:04.079 --> 00:56:07.480 and he's great in the film and and he's and if you want to talk 717 00:56:07.480 --> 00:56:09.519 about Adam, and people always ask like, how come Adam keeps getting all 718 00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:14.679 these this deal on Netflix? And I always say, like, the reason 719 00:56:14.760 --> 00:56:19.239 why is because when you're on Friday night with your wife sitting on Netflix and 720 00:56:19.239 --> 00:56:22.840 you're scanning all those thumbnails and you see Adam's face, you go, oh, 721 00:56:22.960 --> 00:56:27.079 I know what I'm gonna get, and I'm gonna get something that, 722 00:56:28.760 --> 00:56:30.920 and he's he's either gonna be super funny or when he gets into this dramatic 723 00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:36.679 stuff, which's so underrated in his dramatic acting, he and he just he 724 00:56:36.840 --> 00:56:39.320 gets it and he understands his brand, he understands what he's doing. And 725 00:56:39.360 --> 00:56:45.119 man, he's unlike any other actor. I really he's He's done such amazing 726 00:56:45.159 --> 00:56:50.400 stuff over the years. Whether you like his film, yeah, whatever you 727 00:56:50.519 --> 00:56:52.760 like, I don't care if people like his films, and everyone has their 728 00:56:52.760 --> 00:56:57.960 opinions on stuff, well you can't deny what the man has done and continues 729 00:56:58.039 --> 00:57:00.760 to do it, keeps knocking it out of the park. I loved Hustle. 730 00:57:00.800 --> 00:57:07.159 I loved Hustle so good power. I love the guy so let's talk 731 00:57:07.199 --> 00:57:12.440 about the Pale Blue Eye, you know with Netflix. You know it looks 732 00:57:13.519 --> 00:57:17.760 beautiful, dude, It's stunning. It is stunningly shot. It almost reminded. 733 00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:22.800 It almost has a sleepy hollow vibe to it as far as I guess, 734 00:57:22.000 --> 00:57:25.599 Yeah, that's right, that that has that kind of texture, well, 735 00:57:25.679 --> 00:57:30.920 color aesthetic for sure. Yeah, it's it's stunning, man. So 736 00:57:30.079 --> 00:57:34.599 tell me how that that whole thing came to be and and how you were 737 00:57:34.599 --> 00:57:36.920 able. I mean'm assuming you gave the script to Christian. Christian said yes, 738 00:57:36.920 --> 00:57:38.159 and then Netflix sid ye, Yeah, yeah, he read it probably, 739 00:57:38.480 --> 00:57:40.559 Uh oh, I don't know. Ten or twelve years ago after we 740 00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:45.920 did Out of the Furnace that he was too young to play Augustus Land or 741 00:57:45.960 --> 00:57:52.239 the World where he Detective was too old to play Edgar Allan Poe. That 742 00:57:52.280 --> 00:57:54.480 we'd always talked about it, and I've written a lot of things that that 743 00:57:54.840 --> 00:57:58.079 I think he and I will make at some point. It's all about, 744 00:57:58.119 --> 00:58:01.599 as we discussed early on in the podcast, all about timing availability, what 745 00:58:01.639 --> 00:58:09.519 we feel like making. But we both were interested in what drives someone to 746 00:58:09.639 --> 00:58:15.840 madness, how much pressure has to build before they explode in violence? You 747 00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:21.199 know, what causes morality and decency to erode and otherwise decent people, right, 748 00:58:21.320 --> 00:58:25.760 Real horrors seldom have easy explanations, and that's what we wanted to explore 749 00:58:25.800 --> 00:58:29.719 with the story. In terms of the aesthetic, it was. It was 750 00:58:29.719 --> 00:58:32.880 a brutal shoot. It's all. My wife thinks I'm a massacres. But 751 00:58:34.400 --> 00:58:38.000 like I said, it was incredibly cold therese bracing winds coming from the northeast 752 00:58:38.079 --> 00:58:42.599 are just almost Revenant style. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. 753 00:58:42.760 --> 00:58:49.360 It was tough, But that was all in serving kind of this Gothic aesthetic 754 00:58:49.960 --> 00:58:58.719 and really trying to serve as an Edgar Allan Poe origin story that the two 755 00:58:58.800 --> 00:59:04.519 Hours will take place in this film motivate Poe to become the writer that we 756 00:59:04.679 --> 00:59:07.400 know and love, the writer of the macabre, the man who bequeathed to 757 00:59:07.519 --> 00:59:14.639 us detective and horror fiction, the man who writes about tragedy and death and 758 00:59:14.719 --> 00:59:20.239 the satanic and the occult and where life ends and death begins, all those 759 00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.400 sort of things that kind of course through this narrative. And I thought that 760 00:59:23.480 --> 00:59:30.960 again, in trying not to do safe work, Christian stood on that ledge 761 00:59:30.000 --> 00:59:36.519 with me and we both took the leap and were yeah. So once I 762 00:59:36.599 --> 00:59:43.920 attached Christian, my agency creative artists took the screenplay out and we got a 763 00:59:43.920 --> 00:59:46.320 lot of bids from the Legacy studios, a lot of bids from streamers, 764 00:59:46.719 --> 00:59:52.960 but Netflix made us an offer that we thought was too good to pass up. 765 00:59:53.639 --> 01:00:00.519 We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor. And now back 766 01:00:00.559 --> 01:00:09.039 to the show. In terms of having both theatrical experience and streaming, my 767 01:00:09.079 --> 01:00:15.199 first platform experience, and also, uh, quite frankly, there there their 768 01:00:15.320 --> 01:00:20.280 ranks are filled with great filmmakers who really understood the film and allowed me to 769 01:00:20.320 --> 01:00:24.679 make the film that you see. I hope that people find it, you 770 01:00:24.719 --> 01:00:30.880 know, starting today on the on the streamer, and allow people coming behind 771 01:00:30.920 --> 01:00:37.119 me to make films that are similarly difficult to make in this marketplace. And 772 01:00:38.079 --> 01:00:42.039 you've worked with Christians so many times now, I mean, you guys, 773 01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:46.079 are you're scorses to his DeNiro at this point or to his DiCaprio at this 774 01:00:46.239 --> 01:00:51.280 point. Uh, Christian is one of the greatest actors of his generation. 775 01:00:51.559 --> 01:00:55.199 There's no question, one of the greatest actors of his generation. And his 776 01:00:55.280 --> 01:00:59.400 physical transformations that he's done over the course of his life, which I know 777 01:00:59.440 --> 01:01:02.320 has harmed wealth. Oh yeah, that's the part of myself. And there's 778 01:01:02.360 --> 01:01:08.039 nobody who's ever done anything at that again and again and again and again. 779 01:01:08.519 --> 01:01:14.320 From the Machinist the Batman, You're like, what, how? How? 780 01:01:14.360 --> 01:01:19.360 How? It's really remarkable? What is the what is the biggest lesson you've 781 01:01:19.400 --> 01:01:23.880 learned working with an actor like him? No detail is too small, and 782 01:01:24.480 --> 01:01:31.360 always striving for the truth, always striving for excellence, and realizing that we 783 01:01:31.360 --> 01:01:36.239 can always do better. And you need people like that to make you a 784 01:01:36.280 --> 01:01:40.000 better filmmaker. I've spoken about it publicly. Christians, my closest pal, 785 01:01:40.559 --> 01:01:45.880 my closest collaborator, is a brother to me and uh and I'm thankful that 786 01:01:45.880 --> 01:01:49.639 that. As a director, I've had someone who has served as as a 787 01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:55.280 muse for for the stories that I want to tell, and people continue to 788 01:01:55.320 --> 01:01:58.519 come out and see our work. It won't be the end of it our 789 01:01:58.559 --> 01:02:01.119 collaboration, for sure, but he pushes me to be the best filmmaker I 790 01:02:01.159 --> 01:02:06.000 can be. And and quite frankly, I admired him more off the set 791 01:02:06.039 --> 01:02:09.519 than I do on. He's He's an incredibly devoted father and husband and you 792 01:02:09.679 --> 01:02:14.559 never see Christian in the public eye. You never see him on talk shows, 793 01:02:14.920 --> 01:02:17.599 because he always thinks the less the public knows about him, the more 794 01:02:17.639 --> 01:02:22.719 easily they will believe him as Batman or Dick Cheney or Augustus Land or in 795 01:02:22.760 --> 01:02:29.559 the Pale Brewer where he pumps his gas, who he's partying with, where 796 01:02:29.599 --> 01:02:34.280 he went for holiday. You never see it. Yeah, it's almost a 797 01:02:34.360 --> 01:02:37.440 danielda Lewis vibe too, because when Daniel did, he just wouldn't you doing 798 01:02:37.960 --> 01:02:40.320 nothing? You knew nothing about day. He just show up three ten years 799 01:02:40.360 --> 01:02:45.000 later. I'll do a part now. That's exactly right. And and that 800 01:02:45.039 --> 01:02:49.119 way you're able to be transported with the filmmakers to a world and you never 801 01:02:49.199 --> 01:02:53.360 even question, hold on, is he dating? You're right, You're right, 802 01:02:53.400 --> 01:02:57.920 he's He's brilliant on multiple levels, without question. Yes. And now 803 01:02:57.920 --> 01:03:00.199 I continue to write for him. Now I have a few questions. Ask 804 01:03:00.239 --> 01:03:04.519 all my guests, what advice would you give a filmmaker or screenwriter trying to 805 01:03:04.519 --> 01:03:08.480 break into the business today. Tell personal stories. Tell personal stories that you 806 01:03:08.599 --> 01:03:16.159 know will connect in a very universal way to people in America, people in 807 01:03:16.800 --> 01:03:22.599 Iran, people in Afghanistan, people in Ukraine. All people need stories help 808 01:03:22.639 --> 01:03:27.280 make personal films. What is the lesson that took you the longest to learn, 809 01:03:27.360 --> 01:03:30.840 whether in the film industry or in life. And it's difficult, but 810 01:03:30.960 --> 01:03:36.920 patients and to believe in yourself and to believe in your stories, and to 811 01:03:37.039 --> 01:03:43.039 believe that you'll ultimately cultivate your talent in such a way that it will be 812 01:03:43.119 --> 01:03:46.719 undeniable that people will want to work with you. But it all takes patience 813 01:03:46.760 --> 01:03:52.719 and experience and the toughest question. Of all three of your favorite films of 814 01:03:52.719 --> 01:04:00.960 all time, I would say, even though I have yet to make a 815 01:04:01.039 --> 01:04:06.320 documentary, I love them. I would say Barbara Copple's Harlan County, USA. 816 01:04:08.239 --> 01:04:11.199 That's a great one, something that really has influenced me. The Maze 817 01:04:11.199 --> 01:04:18.480 Old Brothers Salesman. Here's another. I would say, Jean Pierre Melville's Les 818 01:04:18.559 --> 01:04:25.639 Samurai. Nice, very nice, very nice. List. My friend Scott 819 01:04:25.679 --> 01:04:29.320 Brother, I appreciate you coming on the show and sharing all your knowledge and 820 01:04:29.320 --> 01:04:31.679 experience with the audience. Man, and please continue to make a movie great 821 01:04:31.760 --> 01:04:36.679 questions, man, keep it up and please people in all seriousness. Don't 822 01:04:36.679 --> 01:04:41.599 lose faith. Gotta tell stories. I want to thank Scott so much for 823 01:04:41.639 --> 01:04:45.079 coming on the show and sharing his journey and dropping his knowledge bombs on the 824 01:04:45.159 --> 01:04:47.199 Tribe today. Thank you so much, Scott. If you want to get 825 01:04:47.239 --> 01:04:51.280 links anything we spoke about in this episode, including how to watch his new 826 01:04:51.320 --> 01:04:56.280 film The Pale Blue Eye on Netflix, head over to the show notes at 827 01:04:56.320 --> 01:05:00.960 Bulletproof Screenwriting dot tv. Forward slash three forty eight. Thank you so much 828 01:05:00.960 --> 01:05:03.679 for listening to guys as always, keep on writing no matter what. I'll 829 01:05:03.719 --> 01:05:09.639 talk to you soon. Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproof 830 01:05:09.719 --> 01:05:11.079 Screenwriting dot tv.