1 00:00:16,559 --> 00:05:46,839 Up the times spring open, I standing the stand and spelling the I love 2 00:05:51,600 --> 00:08:18,680 love and Sandy. All right, what's up? Welcome, It's that time 3 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:28,839 again, another night, another fair all bunch of crazy blogny coming in hot, 4 00:08:30,120 --> 00:08:35,320 fresh from the frying pan. We've never tried it on a Friday night, 5 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:41,960 though. We usually get our own unique blend of fair ale individuals coming 6 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:50,240 in hot on the weekday. What about on a Friday night? Hopefully we 7 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,440 all got to see you today's installment of Lord Baltimore. We had a lot 8 00:08:54,480 --> 00:09:00,519 of fun over there today. Jamie joined me. I got my cool nineties 9 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,399 guy here falling down in my face. How are you gonna be the guy 10 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:09,440 in a debate? That's kind of like Jamie said, I could look like 11 00:09:09,559 --> 00:09:16,279 a nineties cool guy boyfriend, and I said, okay, I'll go with 12 00:09:16,399 --> 00:09:22,399 that. Imagine losing a debate to a nineties cool guy, alternative boyfriend. 13 00:09:24,159 --> 00:09:28,159 That's what's gonna happen to you tonight. When you try to you try to 14 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:31,559 make your dumb arguments. I'm just kidding with you. It's okay, you're 15 00:09:31,600 --> 00:09:39,840 not dumb tonight. We're gonna open it up. Why not. I even 16 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:43,480 got our buddy, the famous white board. It's a white board summer. 17 00:09:43,879 --> 00:09:48,639 If you haven't heard, I got it ready to go because I know we're 18 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:54,799 gonna have some some heat, we're gonna have some smoke, so we can 19 00:09:54,879 --> 00:10:01,240 help clear up the confusion via the white board tonight. The topics are as 20 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:07,360 you probably have surmised. Catholicism, Atheism, Protestantism, Islam, paganism, 21 00:10:07,759 --> 00:10:13,759 neopaganism. That means we can talk about why you believe there is no God, 22 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,000 why you think I'm crazy and wrong. We'll talk about philosophical topics, 23 00:10:18,159 --> 00:10:22,799 logic, transit argumentation, there's a good argument, it's a bad argument, 24 00:10:22,919 --> 00:10:28,559 transforgument for God. That is, we'll talk about recent topics I've covered. 25 00:10:28,559 --> 00:10:31,200 Maybe you're a peterson Ian. You want to talk about my take on Jordan 26 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,799 Peterson. We can talk about that. You want to talk about the Essencenary 27 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,480 section. You want to talk about absolutely divine sublicity. You wants about the 28 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:39,000 history of the papacy. You want to talk about John Calvin, Calvinism, 29 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:43,519 James White. You want to talk about Trent Horn, You want to talk 30 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:48,399 about Taylor Marshall, trad cats, whatever. As long as it's in those 31 00:10:48,519 --> 00:10:52,159 domains, we'll talk about it. So you want to talk about the papacy, 32 00:10:52,200 --> 00:11:03,240 you want to talk about whatever Eastern religions mean, natural theology. It's 33 00:11:03,320 --> 00:11:07,080 open for him. That means you can have the floor. The rules are 34 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:11,360 you can make arguments as long as you want. You can make whatever presentation 35 00:11:11,440 --> 00:11:15,919 you want within reason. You can't talk for an hour. Don't nobody want 36 00:11:15,919 --> 00:11:20,919 to listen to you doing your slam poetry. We don't care about your latest 37 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:26,799 rap. We don't care about your the single that you're about to drop. 38 00:11:26,159 --> 00:11:30,120 Ain't nobody over here interested in the Only music every we like over here is 39 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:33,559 called crunch Score. That's my music, which I'll be doing live in LA. 40 00:11:33,679 --> 00:11:39,240 By the way, if you sign up for the LA event July sixth, 41 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:46,039 tickets available in the show description in the show ascriptions, you're gonna need 42 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:52,279 some prescriptions. All you gotta do is request to speak. You call in 43 00:11:52,639 --> 00:12:00,240 via Twitter spaces. It doesn't have to be a debate. You don't after 44 00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:03,279 debate if you don't want to. If you feel like you just want to 45 00:12:03,279 --> 00:12:09,240 ask a question, that's also good. We that's acceptable. However, I'm 46 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,240 not gonna talk about geo politics. I'm not gonna talk about conspiracies. I'm 47 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:16,000 not gonna talk about how you think I'm a KGB sorcerer. Um, I'm 48 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,360 not gonna talk about how hot you think I am. We all know you 49 00:12:20,440 --> 00:12:24,360 think I'm hot. That's fine. We're not gonna talk about, um, 50 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,279 what else mama jokes? No, mama jokes allowed. We're not gonna talk 51 00:12:31,279 --> 00:12:35,799 about what else? Is there else? Crazy people calling? They want to 52 00:12:35,799 --> 00:12:41,480 talk about crazy stuff. We're not gonna talk about your gnostic vision quest and 53 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,480 how you're the bloodline of the Grail and all this nonsense like that one guy. 54 00:12:46,639 --> 00:12:52,200 No. Sorry, if you make dumb arguments, I'm gonna call him 55 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:58,039 out. If you get sassy, I'm gonna get sassy right back. It's 56 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,120 well, you're gonna get some sass. If you're cool, you'll get cool. 57 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,159 If for an I round here, it's straight to lex talionis baby. 58 00:13:07,759 --> 00:13:09,399 So the way it works is you request to speak, you call in via 59 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:13,519 Twitter Spaces. Unfortunately, Twitter Spaces only works on the app, so if 60 00:13:13,519 --> 00:13:16,039 you're on a PC or whatever, it's not gonna work. You gotta be 61 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:22,399 on your phone to call in via Twitter Spaces. I have put the link 62 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:28,480 in many times. Can we talk about how you know you're hot again. 63 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:31,279 We already know that I'm hot, but that would be a meta level question. 64 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,120 Do I know that I know that I'm hot? Yes, so, 65 00:13:35,399 --> 00:13:39,879 but we can't talk about that. I'm a ten on a ten scale, 66 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:46,000 baby, talk about a weight scale. If you weigh me, my hotness 67 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:50,840 comes out as a ten. I don't even weigh three fifty pounds. You 68 00:13:50,879 --> 00:13:54,320 probably think you look upon this man, you think that man through waste three 69 00:13:54,360 --> 00:13:58,399 hundred fifty pounds at lease because of all the beefcake that's full of He's full 70 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:01,679 of beefcake. So you sway three hundred fifty pounds. No, when I 71 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:05,080 step on the scale, it's a ten. Why because I'm a dime bag. 72 00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:09,759 I'm a dime piece. I'm don bag Darrel. That means that you 73 00:14:09,919 --> 00:14:13,639 they used people think that's a weed reference. No dime back darrel. The 74 00:14:13,759 --> 00:14:22,600 women thought he was a hot piece, dimebag, a ten piece. We 75 00:14:22,759 --> 00:14:26,639 bust in the fourth wall to night. That's right, it's open for him. 76 00:14:26,679 --> 00:14:28,519 That means you can have the floor. You can tell me why I'm 77 00:14:28,559 --> 00:14:33,840 wrong, you can refute me, you can bust my chops, you can 78 00:14:35,240 --> 00:14:39,080 demolish me, annihilate me, do whatever it is you want. To do. 79 00:14:39,559 --> 00:14:43,559 Just keep it to argumentation. That's it. Some dude caught on it. 80 00:14:43,679 --> 00:14:48,320 He said, I'm a I got a forty point IQ above you. 81 00:14:50,159 --> 00:14:52,399 How do you know my IQ? Dude? He's like, I'm at least 82 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:56,559 forty points Q higher than you, and it's got to be trolling. But 83 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:01,120 who knows. You never know. Almost it's almost impossible to troll. I 84 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:03,600 hope he comes in here. I mean, this dude was talking some serious 85 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:09,159 smack. He's got the highest IQ of anybody in the Twitter space for sure. 86 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,399 Man. He said, he's gonna set me straight. I'm not joking 87 00:15:13,399 --> 00:15:16,759 about this. Dude's like, you're a dick and MYCS will lose forty parts 88 00:15:16,879 --> 00:15:24,919 higher than you. I mean, anybody that's like shouting out their IQ on 89 00:15:24,039 --> 00:15:28,919 Twitter. Come on, dude, you gotta be trolling. You can't be 90 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:35,440 taking yourself serious. Where's he at? What's his name? T Free? 91 00:15:35,720 --> 00:15:39,440 T Free? Eight one seven? I'll send him with damn space? Where's 92 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,600 you? Where are you at? T Free? Put me in my place? 93 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,679 Come shoot me down. He's like, you're a dick, dude, 94 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:54,039 Buffalo billions. What's up? Dude? You're on? Put me in my 95 00:15:54,120 --> 00:15:58,320 place? Set me straight? Hey, can you hear me? Yes, 96 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,600 sirry what's going on? Man? Um? So, first of all, 97 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:06,799 I was just wondering if you have any if you know of any resources, 98 00:16:07,120 --> 00:16:11,480 um, that would be useful in finding a saint for intersensory prayer, you 99 00:16:11,519 --> 00:16:17,480 know, for specific stuff. UM, do you know of any resources like 100 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,799 that? Do you know what I'm talking about? Um? You mean for 101 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:29,480 like a specific issue like saints related to travel or health issues? Is every 102 00:16:29,519 --> 00:16:33,440 tithing about? Yeah? UM, I'm not sure off top of my head. 103 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:37,159 I mean, you could probably just go to Rocreps website and there's probably 104 00:16:37,360 --> 00:16:40,600 lists of saints there. Okay, But I mean, yeah, that's a 105 00:16:40,639 --> 00:16:42,559 good question. I don't have like a I think, you know, the 106 00:16:42,679 --> 00:16:47,200 Orthodox Church is basically just you just attend the liturgy and then you'll find them 107 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:48,840 in the calendar, I guess. But did you have any issues you disagree 108 00:16:48,879 --> 00:16:52,720 with or anything like that? No, I didn't really, Um. I 109 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,879 just saw you put Q and M the titles. I was just worried about 110 00:16:56,879 --> 00:17:00,399 it. But I also wanted to thank you for the youth a couple of 111 00:17:00,519 --> 00:17:04,319 years. And I'm loving the Twitter spaces because it just goes to show that 112 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:07,519 you're not fearing anyone, and that they're free to come and join. But 113 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:11,160 no one's no one. Big Is really didn't coming to challenge you, you 114 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:15,279 know, yeah, of course, I think a lot of those people are 115 00:17:15,319 --> 00:17:21,480 gonna just say, well, it's not a formal debit and he's going to 116 00:17:21,599 --> 00:17:23,920 cheat or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I mean, if 117 00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:27,160 they really wanted to come have a conversation, it'd be easy to set up. 118 00:17:27,200 --> 00:17:30,960 I mean, yeah, I've been trying the whole last week to get 119 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:37,200 some kind of Roman calicy discussion. But I get tired of the same old 120 00:17:37,200 --> 00:17:38,960 papal debates. They always wanted tobate the papacy. I wanted to debate some 121 00:17:40,079 --> 00:17:41,839 other interesting things, like, you know, at least at least Trent was 122 00:17:41,920 --> 00:17:45,000 willing to debate uh, you know, natural theology, which was cool. 123 00:17:45,079 --> 00:17:51,160 So I like to debate I don't know the history of the geopolitical entanglements of 124 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:55,599 the papacy. Nobody ever wants to debate that. I think that's actually a 125 00:17:55,799 --> 00:18:00,920 much a much more grounded, realistic assessment of what's going on in the twentieth 126 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:08,599 century papacy. So I've posed the debate something like what's about, Like, 127 00:18:08,880 --> 00:18:14,720 uh, is the paper does the papacy still maintain. How did I word 128 00:18:14,720 --> 00:18:17,400 it? Let me see how word I worded it really well in this uh 129 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:21,359 tweet here that I sent. Let me see, I sent this to a 130 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,680 couple of people. But nobody will come debate this. They don't want to 131 00:18:23,759 --> 00:18:30,640 debate the is the papacy a captured, captured institution of geopolitical powers or is 132 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:36,880 it still the infallible, divinely guided chair that Christ established. I'd really like 133 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:40,200 to debate something like that, but they never want to debate that. Um, 134 00:18:40,279 --> 00:18:44,960 they only want to debate well, of course, of course it's infallible. 135 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:49,279 Yeah, and you you Orthobro's getting owned because they don't have a central 136 00:18:49,319 --> 00:18:57,279 authority. All right, what's up? Fola Fola aabade sounds like a Muslim? 137 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,160 Hello, what's up, dude? How are you doing? Yeah? 138 00:19:07,200 --> 00:19:11,200 I'm good, I'm good. I'll go two questions, really okay. The 139 00:19:11,319 --> 00:19:15,359 first one will be like, how do we historically like affirm that we have 140 00:19:15,839 --> 00:19:21,920 apostolic succession? How do we know that we have it? Like in the 141 00:19:22,079 --> 00:19:26,559 specific church. I think every church has a record of like who ordained who? 142 00:19:26,759 --> 00:19:30,480 So you know it's it's even it's even posted on websites. You mean, 143 00:19:30,519 --> 00:19:32,880 like, how is it not made Is it made up? Yeah? 144 00:19:33,079 --> 00:19:37,759 How do you affirm that that list? Well, for one, I think 145 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,960 we can have a basic reliable trust, basic reliability when it comes to the 146 00:19:42,079 --> 00:19:47,559 history of the Church, that these churches have existed since the first and second 147 00:19:47,640 --> 00:19:49,720 century, and we have writings going all the way back to those times. 148 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:56,759 So like, what why would it be questionable that there is a succession? 149 00:19:56,799 --> 00:20:00,359 Are you saying, like from a Protestant perspective, what if a protest and 150 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,559 says you moved it up right? Now? Well, we can actually go 151 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:07,039 read the church fathers and they consistently talk about apsolete succession. So you can 152 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:10,960 read book three aaron As talks about it. You can read Cyprian talking about 153 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:12,319 it. You can read you know, the first, second, third century 154 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:18,519 church fathers all talk about absolute succession and they listed right like in uh against 155 00:20:18,559 --> 00:20:22,400 Herresey's book three, aaron As says, look to the pre eminent Church of 156 00:20:22,559 --> 00:20:26,079 Rome founded by Peter and Paul, and you can see the succession of the 157 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:32,519 bishops from the Apostolic period in the Church of Rome. So even Anglicans admit 158 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:37,240 Apostolic succession. Yeah, but wouldn't it wouldn't it be like alack a nation 159 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:41,200 because some of them say, like, for example, like was his name 160 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:45,559 Ignatius or play called? Don't directly you claim to be taught by Peter and 161 00:20:45,039 --> 00:20:49,039 Peter and j and John. So no, actually no, well hold on, 162 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,680 So polycarp does claim to be taught by John. So what do you 163 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:56,319 mean he said he was the disciple of John. Oh I live in London. 164 00:20:56,519 --> 00:20:59,680 Well, I guess said, I haven't read it appropriately. Yeah, 165 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,200 well, I'm I mean it's like it's if you look at Paul's letters to 166 00:21:02,240 --> 00:21:04,720 Timothy, he says that the body of things that I taught you, that 167 00:21:06,000 --> 00:21:08,319 entire teaching that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses. If 168 00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,880 you look at acts, he says, he taught in ephesis for three years, 169 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:15,759 day and night. He says, passed on all of that to men. 170 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:19,839 After you lay on hands, he says, and that is the passing 171 00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:22,599 on it to give to the Holy Spirit. So that body of deposit that 172 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,279 that body of faith, that the doctrines that are deposited by the laying on 173 00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,519 of hands to the teaching of the ministry that Paul laid hands on on. 174 00:21:30,599 --> 00:21:33,799 Timothy says, you can lay hands on men, f you, but don't 175 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,079 do it hastily because it passes on the power of the Holy Spirit. So 176 00:21:37,240 --> 00:21:45,359 that's apostolic succession and the letters to Timothy. Okay, thanks, yeah, 177 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:53,119 and uh, well the second question would be on I've heard on what Gregor 178 00:21:53,160 --> 00:22:00,160 of Nissa, Yeah, Nissa, and I've heard that he ends um am 179 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:06,720 i in uh classical numerical identity when he's talking about like not free gods and 180 00:22:06,759 --> 00:22:11,759 stuff like that. Uh, he's some other like the Muslim argument from that 181 00:22:14,039 --> 00:22:18,200 Jake makes or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think doctor Branson 182 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:25,200 has dealt with this, like there's no such thing as like a universal numerical 183 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,359 style like how we number how we number things, right, So the fact 184 00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:33,799 that people are using like modern numerical attribution and saying, oh they didn't they 185 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:38,160 didn't do it the right way back then, Um, he's just he's just 186 00:22:38,279 --> 00:22:44,160 saying that so he can do his LPT argument, which again trades on the 187 00:22:44,319 --> 00:22:48,480 fact that God only picks out one thing, so you can have something being 188 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:52,279 one and also many, right, and so he's just kind of like assuming 189 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:56,640 that there's only one way to talk about numbers, or there's only one way 190 00:22:56,720 --> 00:23:00,759 to speak of something being one, uh, depending upon on again, like 191 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,039 what time period we're talking about, And it's just not true. There's no 192 00:23:04,400 --> 00:23:10,039 there's no such thing as a quote classical universal number theory. By the way, 193 00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:11,640 Islam doesn't have that. So I don't know how he thinks that that's 194 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:23,599 going to help Islam. Yeah. Man, good questions. So tonight we're 195 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:32,400 taking profitably people who disagree. So if you have an issue, you want 196 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:37,839 to debate an issue, you want to discuss a topic you disagree with, 197 00:23:38,319 --> 00:23:52,680 you're welcome to Gregorios. Hello, Yeah, what's up? All right? 198 00:23:53,400 --> 00:24:00,000 I am Orthodox, but I mainly had a theological topic and we do disagree. 199 00:24:00,839 --> 00:24:06,640 Um, so I support icons of God the Father. I was wondering 200 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:12,160 if you would if that was on topic enough. Sure, So the first 201 00:24:12,279 --> 00:24:18,000 question I would have would be what would be the basis for drawing say like 202 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,279 the So we we typically say that the basis for icons is that you know, 203 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:29,160 Christ became incarnate. Um, my question would be what would be the 204 00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:37,119 basis for things like Theophany is being depicted. H The basis is that the 205 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:42,160 Theophanes are picking out just like the icons are picking out the hypostasis. So 206 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:52,920 the theophany is the hypostasis of the sun manifesting in an energetic way. So 207 00:24:52,599 --> 00:24:56,839 what what I So I looked into this and I actually made a video that 208 00:24:57,079 --> 00:25:02,240 got a little bit popular at the time I made it. I looked into 209 00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:07,759 the topicum and I because there are like many miracles that I sort of had 210 00:25:07,799 --> 00:25:14,960 a very difficult time reconciling. So some examples miracles. Yet, well, 211 00:25:15,039 --> 00:25:18,720 on miracles you had a hard time reconciling. What do you mean? There 212 00:25:18,799 --> 00:25:22,759 are a lot of miracles that have are icons that are miraculous, that have 213 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,720 even been like commanded to be made by the Theotokos, that have the icon 214 00:25:26,839 --> 00:25:32,400 of God Father in them. Well, so do you think that the normative 215 00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:37,519 way that we go about doing theology as claims of miracles? No, but 216 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:41,839 I I've how do I how do I put it? I found it very 217 00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:48,720 difficult to have a consistent view. Why is it difficult to have a consistent 218 00:25:48,839 --> 00:25:52,279 view? I mean, to me, it seems that the logic of the 219 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:56,440 Seventh Council and the Canons and in the Moscow councils is pretty consistent. So 220 00:25:56,799 --> 00:26:02,759 what's what's inconsistent with it? So your only hangout was that there's claims of 221 00:26:02,839 --> 00:26:07,240 miracles around certain icons. I mean it's an entire like, I mean, 222 00:26:07,319 --> 00:26:14,440 you would have to remove a large portion of the entire Russian tradition. Well, 223 00:26:15,519 --> 00:26:21,319 so let's be clear, because it's not forbidding all depictions of God the 224 00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:25,480 Father, it's certain depictions. And so the Moscow icons sent as recall, 225 00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:30,960 precisely because there was heterodox iconography that was influencing the Russian Church, and so 226 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:33,920 a lot of the icons were teaching the philioqua, Right, so you're familiar 227 00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:41,240 with that, yes, yes, okay, So but don't you think that 228 00:26:41,559 --> 00:26:45,599 the logic and the theology and argumentation of like John Damascus and the Seventh Council 229 00:26:45,640 --> 00:26:49,759 about not depicting the Father? Is that not no longer it doesn't hold or 230 00:26:49,799 --> 00:26:55,400 what? Well, I don't. I don't think the intention of the icons 231 00:26:55,559 --> 00:27:00,200 is to depict the hypostasis. I think they're depicting an energetic manifestation. I 232 00:27:00,279 --> 00:27:06,359 agree with that. So that so like when I see like the Cursed Root 233 00:27:06,599 --> 00:27:10,440 icon or I see the Port Arthur icon, like, yeah, it's it's 234 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:14,240 a man in the sky quote unquote, but it's not a depicting person in 235 00:27:14,319 --> 00:27:17,559 the same way that we would depict Christ. Okay, well then I mean 236 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,680 that part is I think probably harmonizable. I wouldn't have a disagree with it, 237 00:27:22,039 --> 00:27:25,000 That's what I was saying, because there's a lot of people who are 238 00:27:25,119 --> 00:27:29,000 very against it. But there are articles in Greek and Russian that you have 239 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:33,960 to translate that explain it more in depth. And I just wanted to bring 240 00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,480 it up because I haven't heard I haven't heard someone publicly defended in this way 241 00:27:38,559 --> 00:27:44,960 before, and I think it's pretty important with our iconographic understanding. Yeah, 242 00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:48,920 as long as we understand that we're not depicting the person of the Father, 243 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,279 Yeah, I think there is room for some flexibility there, and that's why 244 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,519 the Ancient of Day's icon it is a father, but it's a father presented 245 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:02,599 as Christ in the way he's presented and Eequiel and Apocalypse one, which is, 246 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,799 you know, with white hair and this kind of stuff. Well, 247 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,119 I mean, if you pay attention to the Russian tradiction of depicting God the 248 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:15,440 Father, I mean, he's like encased in clouds and things, and in 249 00:28:15,559 --> 00:28:18,359 the Old Testament, the Holy Spirit has you know, an energetic manifestation of 250 00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,119 clouds like that. That's what kind of Yeah, that's I just wanted to 251 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,839 bolster that and to you know, start a discussion about it, because I 252 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,160 mean, that's genuinely what I think, and I think the miracles are consistent 253 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,960 with that view. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah. So 254 00:28:33,519 --> 00:28:37,400 I don't think we're I don't think we disagree there. So, yeah, 255 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:41,720 I don't think it's it's not a prohibition of all depiction or imagery. It's 256 00:28:41,799 --> 00:28:47,400 specifically ultimately the person of the Father, and the logic and argumentation is the 257 00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:52,599 same for the Holy Spirit. Right, there is no direct image of the 258 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,680 hypo states of the Spirit. We don't know what the hypo states of the 259 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:00,680 Spirit is, but he's manifested as tongues of fire, cloud and so forth. 260 00:29:00,839 --> 00:29:07,680 Right. Yeah, well that's thank you. Yeah, good questions there. 261 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,000 I'm glad you made that clear. I think that that actually does clear 262 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:18,039 things up. Let's see who is We've got a bunch of different people here, 263 00:29:18,599 --> 00:29:27,480 Ungar, Nicholas, what's up, dude? Got on mute dog? 264 00:29:30,279 --> 00:29:34,640 Oh that's good? And Jaye there, what's up? Man? I just 265 00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:38,200 want to tell you I'm I am a pretty big fan of yours and I 266 00:29:38,319 --> 00:29:44,559 do like good content. Um in for wars I've been on in for Wars 267 00:29:44,799 --> 00:29:51,279 several times. Okay, um um. I have a substack um at nick 268 00:29:51,279 --> 00:29:55,160 anonymous that substack dot com. And I'm writing an article currently, and I 269 00:29:55,279 --> 00:29:59,319 wanted to bounce some things off you and get your opinion. All right, 270 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:03,960 So the topics tonight are I'm not being rude to you, but it's atheism, 271 00:30:04,079 --> 00:30:10,359 Catholicism, Islam, paganism. Do you have a theological religious kind of 272 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:17,559 disagreement or it's a political ism? Okay? What I'm writing an article about 273 00:30:18,559 --> 00:30:26,319 neo Malphusianism, and I'm writing an article about internationalism, and I have I 274 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:30,519 have a belief that this talk of globalism is actually some kind of a facade. 275 00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:36,880 It's kind of like a I believe it's actually when when somebody like Trump 276 00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,640 talks about globalism, he actually is talking about internationalism and he kind of masks 277 00:30:41,799 --> 00:30:47,599 that. Okay, but the topic tonight is theological stuff. So not trying 278 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:49,720 to be rude to you, but we're going to move on to if you 279 00:30:49,759 --> 00:30:56,279 have a disagreement about theology religion, that's fine. Criminally something I can't see 280 00:30:56,319 --> 00:31:00,519 the rest of your name. So it's open for him to not on conspiracy 281 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:03,119 and Joe politics, which what I said at the beginning of the show, 282 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:07,839 So not being rude. Maybe you weren't here for that, so we're not 283 00:31:08,519 --> 00:31:15,599 not here to talk about that. Go ahead, Hello, what's up? 284 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:18,759 Hey? How are you? I'm great, man, How are you? 285 00:31:18,720 --> 00:31:26,720 I'm pretty good. I just I want to give you some um congratulations. 286 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:33,200 I think you are a very good um, a proponent of of what you 287 00:31:33,319 --> 00:31:37,079 believe. Okay. I also I also consider like a modern day kind of 288 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:45,119 Jean Scott. Who's Jean Scott? You do know Jean Scott? If you 289 00:31:47,759 --> 00:31:52,880 if you're familiar with weren't Bernard hart SOG's documentaries He did a documentary on Jean 290 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:56,839 Scott. Yeah, okay, Who's joy Man of God? I think something. 291 00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,880 I think that was the time that oh man, you think I'm like 292 00:32:01,039 --> 00:32:07,200 some kind of crazy Pentecostal preacher. Good grief, dude. Yeah, well, 293 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:12,319 not in that way I would say you were in. I would try 294 00:32:12,400 --> 00:32:15,119 to do it as more of a compliment. I would say you do it 295 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:21,559 a good job, but in a kind of way of you're very literate, 296 00:32:21,759 --> 00:32:25,039 and oh is this is he the one that uh would smoking costs? Like 297 00:32:25,119 --> 00:32:30,680 he's got a cigar? Oh? I don't know about the cigar. I'm 298 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:32,160 not sure. Well he's yeah, I'm looking at him. He's sitting here 299 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:37,920 with a cigar. So anyway, not sure, he doesn't. Anyway, 300 00:32:38,039 --> 00:32:44,240 where I'm coming from is um. Uh, I guess how do I sum 301 00:32:44,359 --> 00:32:51,200 it up? As someone who was I guess Christian brought up somewhat, grew 302 00:32:51,279 --> 00:32:57,880 up Lutheran, became you know, Presbyterian tried to you know what as a 303 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,839 believer as you could be. Um. But in light of you know, 304 00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:07,400 I mean so much. Okay, well, let me let me put it 305 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,640 this way, um, if you can, if you could summarize religion, 306 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,119 if you could, you know, put it into some you know, it 307 00:33:16,319 --> 00:33:21,920 is a part of what we are as humans, as primates, and what 308 00:33:22,079 --> 00:33:28,440 it's come from. It was our first explanation of the world. It's our 309 00:33:28,519 --> 00:33:35,359 explanation of you know, everything, our first attempt at science. And so 310 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:38,920 you would have to believe that for hundreds of thousands of years that uh, 311 00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:44,319 you know, the world just exists. And then a few thousand years ago 312 00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:51,920 God comes along in in this place and says, okay, we've got to 313 00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,480 do something about this, and and and here we go, here's you know, 314 00:33:55,759 --> 00:34:01,480 we're we're going to get involved and then you know, but I just 315 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:09,039 I can't reconcile the science, the archeology, the uh, the observations we 316 00:34:09,119 --> 00:34:14,760 have around us, the science we have with oh, would just be like 317 00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,079 the same science that says that biology is not determined by chromosomes. That science 318 00:34:20,679 --> 00:34:25,679 what science? Biology is not determined by chromosomes? Yeah? Your gender? 319 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,079 No, not at all? Um So that's not good science? Is that? 320 00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:38,039 Is that? Because that's the science today? Right? I don't think 321 00:34:38,079 --> 00:34:42,800 so. I think there are two sexes as far as I know. Okay, 322 00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:45,679 But what I'm saying is, so, what's the true science here? 323 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:52,079 Okay? So I would land on the side of observable science. I mean 324 00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:58,599 science that you can be you know, actually you know, tested in reality, 325 00:35:00,119 --> 00:35:06,920 not not social science, not not any any type of um as a 326 00:35:07,039 --> 00:35:14,679 doctor conservative, the doctors count because I mean they're the ones saying that they 327 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,880 do a lot of observable I mean they're the ones that are actually like changing 328 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:27,840 the ppees. Right well, okay, I mean no, I am against 329 00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,840 all that. I mean, let me take it. Okay, let me 330 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,199 ask you this. You know, as as I respect you, as as 331 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:38,320 a fellow primate, as a fellow human. But you know we come from 332 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:45,320 other humans. We are Homo sapiens sapiens now, but we have come from 333 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:49,159 a long line of other You know, what is that? What's hap to 334 00:35:49,199 --> 00:35:54,119 do with anything to do with God's existence? So okay, I can understand 335 00:35:54,159 --> 00:36:00,679 that, But I mean you would have to believe that for three hundred thousand 336 00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:07,119 years there was no Christianity as we were talking about today, there was there 337 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:09,199 was. Where are you getting the three hundred thousand years? Is that an 338 00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:14,400 observable thing? What did you observe that? Would you give me one hundred 339 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,239 thousand you can make it as many AONs as you want, or any of 340 00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:23,079 those AONs observable? Are those people any less valuable than than the humans that 341 00:36:23,199 --> 00:36:27,480 exist today? I ask you a question? So then you two quote quayed 342 00:36:27,559 --> 00:36:30,920 me. Are any of those humans observed? Is that? Is that observable 343 00:36:30,920 --> 00:36:32,920 at all? The humans in the hun the eight Men, the piltdown man 344 00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,559 in the hundred thousand and your time friend you're talking about, have you observed 345 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:43,760 that? Okay? Well, they would be observable in archaeological evidence, yes, 346 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,880 I mean we have proof that there were like you know, like pilt 347 00:36:46,920 --> 00:36:50,920 down, like like who like pilt down man, Nebraska. Man, are 348 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,760 those good examples there are? Yeah, I mean there would be some there 349 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,599 are. Oh well those are frauds though, well those are frauds. There, 350 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:07,800 go ahead, those are frauds. Okay, they're famous, their famous 351 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:14,000 fraud um. But you, I mean you would all the ones that there 352 00:37:14,079 --> 00:37:22,360 is an archaeological evidence that does go back hundreds of thousands of years science. 353 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,519 Well okay, so it's funny. But now wait a minute. You said 354 00:37:27,519 --> 00:37:31,039 it was observable science, So I'm just wondering, like, you didn't observe 355 00:37:31,119 --> 00:37:36,239 it. So but a scientific establishment claims to have observed it, but they 356 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:40,000 didn't observe it either, Right, Well, yes, I mean we are. 357 00:37:40,519 --> 00:37:45,960 We are assuming that is you know, it is something that is that's 358 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:50,000 a pretty big it's pretty big as excavated from the ground, has been studied, 359 00:37:50,119 --> 00:37:52,480 has been you know, I mean, it has been built upon for 360 00:37:52,639 --> 00:37:59,639 many years. And it's something that's not you know, it's not a uh 361 00:38:00,119 --> 00:38:01,920 in the sense that scientist. I mean, it's not something that's perfect, 362 00:38:02,599 --> 00:38:08,159 but it is something that does you know, have a usefulness. Is something 363 00:38:08,199 --> 00:38:12,840 that we can measure, right, I mean, we can measure ice cores, 364 00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:15,159 we can measure a tree rate. Okay, we can. How how 365 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:21,639 are how are their fossils that extend below in between various ice cores that should 366 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:30,480 not be there in in in what instance? Many of them? There's many 367 00:38:30,519 --> 00:38:32,199 of them, you can there's many of them. You can look them up, 368 00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:36,840 right. What about the fly geyser? The fly geyser is supposedly, 369 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:39,800 you know, that's something that takes I think about two hundred thousand and eighty 370 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,280 thousand years to form, and it formed in forty years. So how's that 371 00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:51,400 possible? I would I wouldn't doubt there are events and I'm not a scientist 372 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,719 at all. Well wait a minute, so you're not a scientist, so 373 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:59,960 this is not your observation. No, it's not right. So you've accepted 374 00:39:00,119 --> 00:39:05,199 that a new you've accepted a new authority that's not based on any of your 375 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:10,000 own For the vast majority of humans, it's never going to be you know 376 00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:15,960 something but that that that that same scientific establishment now says that a man can 377 00:39:16,039 --> 00:39:19,239 be a woman. And you said, no, I don't believe that. 378 00:39:19,679 --> 00:39:22,800 So you don't you see, you don't follow the science. Well I don't 379 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:29,320 think that the serious scientists, Oh really like the like the Tavistock Institute, 380 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,920 the Tavistock So Tavistock is not a serious science entity. You know. You 381 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:39,239 don't think the biggest, most powerful clinics in the United States, which are 382 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:45,119 pushing out Vanderbilt University, is not an authoritative scientific institution. I thought it 383 00:39:45,239 --> 00:39:52,280 was like the pre eminent medical institution. I wouldn't give it that. I 384 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:57,599 don't I don't know Vanderbilt University. Okay, so Vanderbilt the premier, Yeah, 385 00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:00,800 the premier medical institution of the United States according to you. Now, 386 00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:04,559 isn't that because you haven't given it that title? The United States is two 387 00:40:04,639 --> 00:40:08,079 hundred years old. I mean, these things go back far beyond, you 388 00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:13,039 know, even our own country. I gave you an example of a medical 389 00:40:13,119 --> 00:40:16,920 institution that is esteemed as one of the top medical institutions in the country, 390 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,719 which is a spearhead of the idea that you can become a woman if you're 391 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:25,360 a man. And you're saying I don't accept that authority. I think that's 392 00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:31,599 twisted by social sciences. So they're not really doing those it's social science, 393 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:38,239 but they're not really doing it. They're not really changing. I think they're 394 00:40:38,320 --> 00:40:42,840 trying to do things. I think they're trying to change things. I don't 395 00:40:42,880 --> 00:40:45,519 know. So all you've done is adopted. All you've done is adopt a 396 00:40:45,599 --> 00:40:50,079 new authority structure. And when it comes down to it, there's not actually 397 00:40:50,199 --> 00:40:53,960 any real basis for you to believe these things other than that a lot of 398 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:57,639 people believe it, and a lot of powerful people believe it. But you 399 00:40:57,639 --> 00:41:01,599 yourself have not verified any of these things. But well, yes, I 400 00:41:01,639 --> 00:41:04,760 mean, I mean, there's only so much that one human can do. 401 00:41:05,039 --> 00:41:07,199 I mean, I mean, so it operates kind of like on a faith 402 00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:13,960 based sounds like a faith based thing for you. I see what you're saying 403 00:41:14,079 --> 00:41:20,800 in that sense. But okay, that's true. You're also making a faith 404 00:41:21,079 --> 00:41:24,880 based claim, correct, because I believe everything at rate claims correct. Right? 405 00:41:25,119 --> 00:41:28,920 Yeah? And you know, so who's so whose world view it? 406 00:41:29,519 --> 00:41:34,159 So? Who? Well, whose world view is more consistent because likelihood is 407 00:41:34,159 --> 00:41:38,239 going to depend upon more fundamental presuppositions. So I think I have a consistent 408 00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:43,440 worldview which can give an account for how we know things, how we have 409 00:41:43,599 --> 00:41:46,119 ethics, how we live in the world. But I don't. I don't 410 00:41:46,159 --> 00:41:50,840 believe that the atheist naturalist world view that I hear you present thing can give 411 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:58,639 an account for any of those things. I don't necessarily think that any of 412 00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:04,199 the scientific world accounts that you're you're you're refuting a lot of a lot of 413 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,760 things that there are probably is probably a lot of evidence for and that it 414 00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:14,199 probably cannot be right. But you don't know that it just probably maybe maybe 415 00:42:14,280 --> 00:42:17,440 probably. Well, let me ask you this way. Can can science provide 416 00:42:17,519 --> 00:42:23,519 us with ethics? No, that's I mean, that's not a shot. 417 00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:28,320 But that's not that's not what it should do. Okay, But it can 418 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:34,559 provide truth? Well, I think it can provide insight into reality, yes, 419 00:42:34,800 --> 00:42:38,280 I mean into what exists. But it can't do anything with values. 420 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:45,119 Do you think truth pertains to values? The true and the false don't relate 421 00:42:45,199 --> 00:42:51,880 to values. Should you follow the truth as opposed to the false? Yeah? 422 00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:54,519 I think you should not deceive yourself. Yes, I think you should 423 00:42:54,519 --> 00:43:00,320 not. So it does pretend to values. Well, I don't think that 424 00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:05,039 believing in in fairy tales is Well, you're calling it a fairy tale. 425 00:43:05,079 --> 00:43:07,719 Well, I'm I'm saying on your position, it sounds like all values would 426 00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:12,199 be a fairy tale. But you just told me that you should follow what's 427 00:43:12,199 --> 00:43:21,079 true. Why ought I follow what's true in your world view, follow what's 428 00:43:21,159 --> 00:43:25,199 true? Uh, well, what do we know that's true? How do 429 00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:28,960 we know? Well, you said science can you give us? You said 430 00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:32,559 science gives us an insight into reality. You said that it pertains to what 431 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:37,800 is true? And I said, does the true relate to value judgments? 432 00:43:37,960 --> 00:43:40,519 Like the true versus the false? I followed, the true versus the false? 433 00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:45,239 But that's value judgments. But you said science doesn't give value judgments. 434 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,280 So trying to figure out why ought I follow what's true in your view? 435 00:43:47,599 --> 00:43:55,159 What's the basis for your ethics? Well, I think ethics are an extension 436 00:43:55,239 --> 00:44:00,079 of what we are as humans over many many years. Okay, but that 437 00:44:00,239 --> 00:44:02,079 was an explanation. That's not an explanation for why I ought to And if 438 00:44:02,119 --> 00:44:07,760 you, I mean, if you look at it evolution, and that's not 439 00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,199 an explanation for why I ought to do something. Right, that's a that's 440 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:17,119 a story about the past, but it gives us an insight into what we 441 00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:21,079 are today. Well, there's no But what why is that telling me what 442 00:44:21,199 --> 00:44:23,960 I ought to do? Aught? Can you get an aught from an is? 443 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:30,920 I mean you would have to nail that down for you. What do 444 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:37,199 you exactly mean by that by stating how things are doesn't tell me how they 445 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:39,360 ought to be. So you can tell me all day along that we're primates 446 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,440 and we're apes and we can for you blah blah blah. Okay, but 447 00:44:42,679 --> 00:44:45,880 how ought we live? What's the basis for the ethics of the value judgments? 448 00:44:45,880 --> 00:44:49,360 There? Because you minute ago you're saying we should follow what's true? 449 00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:53,519 Why should I do anything in your world? What's the basis for the shoulds, 450 00:44:53,559 --> 00:44:58,920 the ought, the value judgments, the ethics? Would it? Would 451 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:02,199 that not come? I mean, I don't. One thing is I have 452 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:08,039 to tell I don't discount religion as part of the overall human process of trying 453 00:45:08,079 --> 00:45:15,960 to find the truth of reality. So I mean I would never say that, 454 00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:21,320 you know, we don't need religion historically. I mean, it was 455 00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,719 part of what got us to the point where we are now. But going 456 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:30,880 forward, do we still need to believe in Zeus and thor and? You 457 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,079 know? So none of that was an answer to a very simple question. 458 00:45:35,119 --> 00:45:37,519 I would think that with all of your sophistication, the knowledge of science that 459 00:45:37,559 --> 00:45:42,519 your propelling, that we would have some way to account for what we ought 460 00:45:42,599 --> 00:45:46,199 to do. But I'm not hearing why I ought to follow what you're saying 461 00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:52,599 or any other value judgment. I don't ask you to follow me though. 462 00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:55,280 Wait a minute, you said that I should know. You said I should 463 00:45:55,320 --> 00:46:00,440 follow what's true, namely the science. Why should I follow anything that's an 464 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:04,599 aught, that's a that's a value judgment ethics, Right, Well, I 465 00:46:05,119 --> 00:46:08,360 would not follow another primate, another human. Okay, then I don't. 466 00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:12,599 Then I shouldn't listen to your claims. So I shouldn't listen to your arguments 467 00:46:12,800 --> 00:46:19,599 beyond what you know would are believable, would are approvable, or even But 468 00:46:19,679 --> 00:46:24,400 I'm asking I'm asking you a question. That's what I'm asking you a question 469 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:29,719 that's prior to that claim, which is about value judgments themselves. How are 470 00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:35,800 they possible in your worldview? It's a very simple question, how are you 471 00:46:36,519 --> 00:46:43,559 okay? So ethics, value judgments it's a specific domain of philosophy. Right, 472 00:46:44,079 --> 00:46:47,199 When you said that you should follow what's true, namely the science, 473 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:53,000 that is an ethical value judgment claim. But you're going to have to make 474 00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:58,159 good on that given your naturalistic worldview. In the history of philosophy, this 475 00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,920 is called can I get an aught from an is? And the answer, 476 00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:05,239 of course, is that you can't. There's no ought. Science can't give 477 00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,039 you value judgments. But you told me I should follow what's true versus what's 478 00:47:08,079 --> 00:47:13,639 false. So that's an inconsistency in your position. And I'm saying that your 479 00:47:13,679 --> 00:47:16,800 position as an atheist naturalist can't even tell me if there aren't value judgments, 480 00:47:17,079 --> 00:47:21,280 it makes them all the time. And yet you're turning around and saying, 481 00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:25,360 why don't you basically come from you know, our experience as humans. That 482 00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,159 doesn't tell me what's right or wrong. Their origin doesn't tell me what's right 483 00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:37,079 or wrong. What basis should I follow it? Why not? Because it 484 00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:39,800 could be false? Because it's a fallacy. Do you know what if? 485 00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,760 Do you know what fallacies are? It's called the genetic fallacy. So the 486 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,960 origin of something doesn't entail whether it's true or false. That's a genetic fallacy. 487 00:47:49,079 --> 00:47:52,480 If if we can't cooperate with each other, if we don't understand that 488 00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:58,000 for all of the sophisticate, if we don't understand these things, how can 489 00:47:58,079 --> 00:48:04,039 you progress at all? Is a society again value judge? Progressing is a 490 00:48:04,119 --> 00:48:08,679 value judgment, So you can't tell me what it means to progress well, 491 00:48:09,360 --> 00:48:15,239 well, here we are. We've done it all right, good tribe, 492 00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:19,400 but we're gonna have to move on. Um uh, let's see, we're 493 00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,119 looking for people who disagree. So I'm not being rude to anybody, but 494 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:27,559 blocked. What's up? Blocked? So again it's like I'm not being rude, 495 00:48:27,639 --> 00:48:30,719 but no, just no idea what we're talking about. Absolutely doesn't know 496 00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:35,920 what fallacies are, doesn't know why they matter. Just like talking like, 497 00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:43,639 no idea what I'm talking about? What's up? Dude? You got mute 498 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,039 or not? I'm mute or not? Yes, sir? Alright, alright, 499 00:48:46,079 --> 00:48:55,360 and I am starting to wrap my head around, my slow boy head 500 00:48:55,400 --> 00:49:05,639 around how hag is they to kind of refute the um like the philosophical framework 501 00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:10,360 of atheism. But I think you've mentioned in the past that tag leads more 502 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:16,400 towards trinitarian Christian theology than it would to say, a generic theism. So 503 00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:23,119 yeah, sort of twofold question is is a what exactly is the way that 504 00:49:23,199 --> 00:49:30,119 it suggests Christian theology? Right? Because so it's an argument and then you 505 00:49:30,159 --> 00:49:34,360 go ahead, you had a two part question, go ahead, oh yeah, 506 00:49:34,440 --> 00:49:38,360 and then if um and then if this is the case, how does 507 00:49:38,440 --> 00:49:45,480 it suggest orthodox Christian theology more so than say, Catholical Protestant theology. Right. 508 00:49:45,559 --> 00:49:49,239 So it's an argument for an entire paradigm. That means it's not just 509 00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:52,599 an argument for an abstract God or some sort of speculative thing or some sort 510 00:49:52,639 --> 00:49:55,960 of math problem logic, you know, it's an argument for the entire Christian 511 00:49:57,039 --> 00:50:00,760 paradigm, meaning not just the existence of God, but also the world that 512 00:50:00,840 --> 00:50:05,119 God created, also the entirety of the divine revelation that we have in this 513 00:50:05,320 --> 00:50:08,079 religion, the Christian metaphysic, the Christian all of that goes into it. 514 00:50:08,199 --> 00:50:13,039 So it's all it's like a package deal. So I'm not saying it's true 515 00:50:13,079 --> 00:50:16,320 because I'm making the argument for a package deal. I'm saying that the argument 516 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,480 hinges on it being a package deal. Right. So it's not an argument 517 00:50:21,679 --> 00:50:28,159 that can pick out God apart from the rest of the divine revelation. So 518 00:50:28,280 --> 00:50:32,159 it's an argument before the whole of Christian revelation that includes a specific metaphysic. 519 00:50:32,679 --> 00:50:37,119 And the reason that Protestantism and run Catholicism don't work is because they have fundamental 520 00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:45,559 metaphysical problems due to their erroneous doctrines of God, so they have an insufficient, 521 00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:52,360 incoherent model of the Trinity first and foremost, whereby there's no essencenity distinction. 522 00:50:52,800 --> 00:50:55,519 Literally, the Orthodox Church is the only religion in the world that has 523 00:50:55,559 --> 00:51:00,400 a consistent presentation of the essenceynery distinction. And it's very fun to mental to 524 00:51:00,119 --> 00:51:04,960 how we ground the created order. So if I'm going to ground the created 525 00:51:05,079 --> 00:51:08,519 order in a form of divine conceptualism, it can't be the divine essence, 526 00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:15,119 and so tomaism. Roman Catholicism typically identifies the divine ideas with the divine essence, 527 00:51:15,159 --> 00:51:21,800 and so that would actually undercut the possibility of grounding the particulars in God. 528 00:51:21,960 --> 00:51:24,159 They would be canceled out, they would be or they would be necessary 529 00:51:24,239 --> 00:51:28,599 because the divine essence is necessary. So they have to be energies, they 530 00:51:28,639 --> 00:51:31,039 have to be logi. They can't be the divine essence. And that's so 531 00:51:31,159 --> 00:51:34,559 that's just one thing, but also the problem the one of the many. 532 00:51:35,679 --> 00:51:40,519 My argument is that the Roman Catholic system has a much more tilted over into 533 00:51:40,639 --> 00:51:45,679 modalism. Absolutely divine simplicity, which is dogmatized at the fourth ladder in Council 534 00:51:46,199 --> 00:51:51,800 pretty much makes I think God more or less a monad. It's more of 535 00:51:51,840 --> 00:51:53,840 a modalistic position. So I know they give verbal credence to the trinity, 536 00:51:53,960 --> 00:52:01,800 but really it's slided over into dialectical essentialism or Neoplatonism, so none of those 537 00:52:01,960 --> 00:52:07,199 systems. So I would say that just as much as the Roman Catholic doctrine 538 00:52:07,639 --> 00:52:10,119 falls, it falls as much as Neoplatonism falls, because I see them as 539 00:52:10,159 --> 00:52:15,039 basically the same thing. So the essence inter distinction is utilized by the Cappadocians 540 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:22,880 against neoplatonic presuppositions from the Eunomius. And you can demonstrate that Eunomius has explicit 541 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:27,760 neoplatonic presuppositions and argumentation back. He basically just copies from Platonis when he makes 542 00:52:27,840 --> 00:52:32,800 his unitarian argument. So so that's part of it. And I mean Protestantism 543 00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:38,039 is just by default Augustinianism. So the models are going to be determined by 544 00:52:38,119 --> 00:52:42,639 the God that they have as the determining factor for the world, you for 545 00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:45,840 the system. So if I have a polytheistic God, for example, that's 546 00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:52,199 going to give me a chaotic metaphysic overall. If I have a orthodox trinitarian 547 00:52:53,079 --> 00:52:58,920 model where there's equal ultimacy between unity and multiplicity in the triad. That's going 548 00:52:58,960 --> 00:53:00,559 to give me a unique roach to things like the problem of the one of 549 00:53:00,559 --> 00:53:04,719 the many in the history of philosophy. So those are a couple examples of 550 00:53:04,840 --> 00:53:07,559 why the Christian metaphysics. Others could be given as well. A Maximus makes 551 00:53:07,599 --> 00:53:12,880 an interesting argument for on the basis of the incarnation of the Logos and that 552 00:53:14,039 --> 00:53:19,360 human knowledge needs to be ground and not just in the divine in a general 553 00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,199 sense, but the divine in a concrete sense, and so he argues that 554 00:53:22,559 --> 00:53:27,920 we actually have the ground and incarnate Logos, which again is against the notion 555 00:53:28,000 --> 00:53:34,079 of the neo platonic theological presuppositions. So those are a bunch of examples that. 556 00:53:34,840 --> 00:53:40,679 Again, most world religions are monistic or dualistic, so Orthodox metaphysics is 557 00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:50,679 premised on not being monistic and not being dualistic. Okay, so I could 558 00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,079 call about half of that, but basically, so if I'm at the point 559 00:53:54,159 --> 00:54:00,800 where I can wrap my head around how tag gets you passed past atheism and 560 00:54:01,000 --> 00:54:04,960 the next thing, in order to narrow it down I need to dig into 561 00:54:06,039 --> 00:54:13,159 right well, the essence, thenery distinction is just an outflowing of correct trinitarian 562 00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:19,599 theology, and so Cappadocean trinitarian theology is, you know, we will we 563 00:54:19,679 --> 00:54:22,960 believe in one God because the Father is the one God. So it's not 564 00:54:23,239 --> 00:54:28,039 a It doesn't put essentialism first. It puts the person of the Father first, 565 00:54:28,079 --> 00:54:31,159 and so the personalism and the person of the Father comes first, and 566 00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:40,400 that makes God not part of a category philosophical classification. So God's not defined 567 00:54:40,559 --> 00:54:45,599 or known first and foremost as essence, but as the person of the Father. 568 00:54:45,679 --> 00:54:47,320 That's what the creed says, I believe in one God. The Father 569 00:54:47,559 --> 00:54:51,519 doesn't say I believe in one God. That of mind essence is true that 570 00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:53,480 there is one God, because it's one to bine essence, but that's not 571 00:54:54,079 --> 00:54:58,559 first in our order of theology or the order of theologic. So that's very 572 00:54:58,559 --> 00:55:01,960 important for trinitarian theo oology because that's how we're going to get the soul. 573 00:55:02,039 --> 00:55:07,679 Cause the cappind Oceans and the Council content, they're able to find that the 574 00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:12,320 soul causes the person of the Father fathers not share his causal role with the 575 00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:15,760 Son. There's no secondary causes in the triad. There's only one cause and 576 00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:19,639 that's the person of the Father. All the rest of the theology flows from 577 00:55:19,719 --> 00:55:28,519 that, The essence inter distinction flows from that. So yeah, okay, 578 00:55:30,400 --> 00:55:32,320 I wish I could sit down with you for like five hours. Well, 579 00:55:32,360 --> 00:55:37,960 I've lectured through. That's why there's there's a thousand videos. I've lectured through 580 00:55:37,000 --> 00:55:39,960 the entirety of John Damascus is on the Orthodox faith. So I would say 581 00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:45,079 start with those lectures. Okay, okay, great, thank you? Yeah, 582 00:55:45,159 --> 00:55:54,280 great, questions. Let's see looking for people that disagree. So if 583 00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:59,280 you have questions, that's fine, And I'm looking for people who take issue 584 00:55:59,320 --> 00:56:05,599 with the topics are not conspiracies or geopolitics. Topics are Catholicism, Atheism, 585 00:56:05,679 --> 00:56:09,199 Protestantism, Muslims, pagans uh. And if you want to ask questions about 586 00:56:09,199 --> 00:56:14,559 apologetics, transtant argument, that's all fine too. Tough love. Oh he's 587 00:56:14,599 --> 00:56:17,039 gonna give me some tough love, gonna put me in my place? What's 588 00:56:17,159 --> 00:56:27,320 up? Can hear me? Yes? Sir? Thank ye? How are 589 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:30,000 you going? I got a potential potential disagreement, But that's a question. 590 00:56:30,159 --> 00:56:37,519 I apologize to addressing such stuff. But um, it's about apicatosis or universe, 591 00:56:37,599 --> 00:56:43,559 about apologeta, stays Okay, sure, Yeah. So I'm a huge 592 00:56:43,559 --> 00:56:49,960 fan of I've been reading his um on the Life and Resurrection. He's pretty 593 00:56:50,079 --> 00:56:52,119 clear in what his position is on the whole thing, and I think it's 594 00:56:52,159 --> 00:57:00,760 theology shows together the view of humanity really well in terms of and he makes 595 00:57:00,920 --> 00:57:05,039 a lot of sense of Paul as well. And I see that thread all 596 00:57:05,079 --> 00:57:09,400 throughout the Patristic Fathers. So I'm kind of wondering why you're why your disagreement 597 00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:14,760 with that doctrine is so strong. Well, because the Church rejects it in 598 00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,400 three councils. So it's it's fine to have certain church fathers at certain times 599 00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:24,360 having speculations and theories, right, And we would say the same thing about 600 00:57:24,360 --> 00:57:30,679 Augustine. Augustine has certain speculations and theories about the Trinity that we're not accepted 601 00:57:30,719 --> 00:57:35,960 at constant to nber One. So the doctrine of a pocket of status is 602 00:57:36,039 --> 00:57:42,079 rejected at the fifth, sixth, and seventh councils explicitly. So that's the 603 00:57:42,239 --> 00:57:46,159 first and foremost. At the fifth there was anathemas that were attended to the 604 00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:51,920 council. I'm well aware of all that, and I'm well aware of that, 605 00:57:52,079 --> 00:57:53,920 and I know all these objections, and it doesn't matter because the sixth 606 00:57:54,000 --> 00:58:00,679 and seventh Council affirm explicitly, particularly in the four pages that reject originism, 607 00:58:00,360 --> 00:58:06,079 exactly what is meant by the rejection of a pocket of stasis. So you 608 00:58:06,159 --> 00:58:09,599 can say there's a I mean, I believe in recapitulation, But the fact 609 00:58:09,639 --> 00:58:15,280 that there's recapitulation does not mean that every individual hypostasis is saved or participates in 610 00:58:15,360 --> 00:58:21,440 thiosis. Even Nisus says that it doesn't. Maximus corrects Nisa and says that 611 00:58:22,239 --> 00:58:30,280 the means by which we participate in thiosis are particular to each individual hypostasius recapitulating 612 00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:32,800 the virtues, So it does not. So the restoration of nature does not 613 00:58:32,920 --> 00:58:39,760 necessitate that every individual hypostasis is saved, right, but reconciliation would imply salvation 614 00:58:39,840 --> 00:58:44,639 in the context of scripture if but salvation is not the same thing in every 615 00:58:44,719 --> 00:58:47,199 sense, and so that's why Palamas talks about in different modes. So all 616 00:58:47,239 --> 00:58:52,760 of nature will be restored, and nature is saved. Human nature is saved, 617 00:58:52,800 --> 00:58:55,519 But that doesn't mean the individual hypostasis is saved, because that person can 618 00:58:57,079 --> 00:59:00,880 go against God and then have a negative, bad experience of the escaton because 619 00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:06,199 it's it's all about the mode or the will that their mode of willing, 620 00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:09,119 whether they recapeculate the virtues or not. So they haven't recapitulate the virtues. 621 00:59:09,159 --> 00:59:15,440 Their nature is made ever existing or it has ever being. But it's experience 622 00:59:15,519 --> 00:59:19,960 of God cannot be good because it has rejected God. Right, you experience 623 00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,119 the level God like, it's rash if you haven't been ye, silent christis 624 00:59:23,199 --> 00:59:28,440 right life. Yeah, I get that part. It's just it's just like 625 00:59:28,519 --> 00:59:31,679 I come from a Protestant background. I'm trying to figure out if if Father's 626 00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:36,719 like this, like grigordially is a pillar of Orthodoxy or Origin. For example, 627 00:59:37,760 --> 00:59:44,280 Origin is not a pillar of Orthodoxy. He's rejected by the saint either 628 00:59:44,360 --> 00:59:46,760 Optidus of his days. He was rejected in his day by one of the 629 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:51,599 saints. Origin is a heretic who cut off his balls, which is self 630 00:59:51,719 --> 00:59:55,559 mutilation, and Origin is an aryan. An. Origin teaches, Uh, 631 00:59:57,159 --> 01:00:00,079 do you understand that at the sixth Council there's a four pay each condemnation of 632 01:00:00,159 --> 01:00:05,239 the entire system of Origin. So he's a heretic. But the problem is, 633 01:00:05,280 --> 01:00:07,679 it's it's difficult to even decipher how much of that is even accurate about 634 01:00:07,719 --> 01:00:13,000 him historically, because there's there's all kinds of things that this is your So 635 01:00:13,239 --> 01:00:16,159 okay, So now the academics no better than the church Fathers who condemned them. 636 01:00:16,559 --> 01:00:20,199 So now the council you're not. So you're still a Protestant because the 637 01:00:20,280 --> 01:00:25,199 councils are not authoritative in their exposition. When Saint Sophronius Is four page condemnation 638 01:00:25,280 --> 01:00:30,360 of originism is accepted at the sixth Council, you submit to that. You 639 01:00:30,400 --> 01:00:34,039 don't submit to your intellect reading the Church Fathers on your own and figuring out, 640 01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:37,920 well, I'm going to follow what I think is the true Christianity of 641 01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:45,360 origin and of pocket of stasis. That's heresy, picking and choosing. I 642 01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:50,440 mean, so you don't care what the sixth and seventh Councils say. No, 643 01:00:50,599 --> 01:00:52,800 I do care what they say. I just don't know, like it's 644 01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:58,719 difficult to It's not difficult, it's not. I mean, the condemnations are 645 01:00:58,840 --> 01:01:01,679 explicitly clear, including a pocket discasis. So you just said, well they're 646 01:01:01,719 --> 01:01:07,119 appended. Yeah, but it doesn't matter if the six and seventh Councils reaffirm 647 01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:10,599 the condemnation of originism. I mean, what about originism would we even want 648 01:01:10,639 --> 01:01:15,880 You're saying Maximus had to write two books called the Ambigua dealing with all of 649 01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:20,920 the problems that origin had created. You understand that all the iconoclass were motivated 650 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:25,000 about originism. He was a massive problem for the church. Neoplatonism is the 651 01:01:25,119 --> 01:01:30,000 greatest plague for the first seven centuries of the church. It's awful. Okay. 652 01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:34,360 I'm not trying to really just go all out in origin I just brought 653 01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:38,519 his name up because I think he was an extent. Have you read have 654 01:01:38,639 --> 01:01:45,400 you read the Ambigua? Have you read the Ambigua? Okay, so maybe 655 01:01:45,559 --> 01:01:49,320 the most famous father of the Sixth Council, Saint Maximus, who wrote two 656 01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:54,039 books correcting mistakes in origin and in gregoriveness. So that might be relevant and 657 01:01:54,159 --> 01:01:58,199 you might want to read that because that's the theology of the Sixth Council of 658 01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:04,599 Saint Maximus, right, got it. I'm not trying to be rude to 659 01:02:04,639 --> 01:02:09,360 you. I'm just saying that originism and a pocket of stasis in this sense 660 01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:14,960 are also tools for people at Fordham, David Bentley, Heart and these people 661 01:02:14,960 --> 01:02:19,039 to push a humanism and David Bentley Heart basically says on his blog, I'm 662 01:02:19,079 --> 01:02:22,719 a perennial list now for all intents and purposes, I can say I'm Orthodox, 663 01:02:22,760 --> 01:02:25,119 but I'm pretty much a perennial list. That's because of the very confusions 664 01:02:25,119 --> 01:02:29,559 that we're talking about. So this this, what this does is it's a 665 01:02:29,679 --> 01:02:34,199 tool. It's not about ideologies. It's a tool to take people into a 666 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:43,880 humanism. It's a geopolitical tool beyond all this stuff. Yeah, that's an 667 01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:52,079 interesting take. I see how he commented. I use the word he commend, 668 01:02:52,159 --> 01:02:54,480 he commenical. I don't know how um he's used in this context, 669 01:02:54,559 --> 01:03:04,400 but um, does any of that produce fruit? Does any of that produce 670 01:03:04,519 --> 01:03:09,079 fruit? Certainly that's true. Well, I'm saying the neo platonic structure in 671 01:03:09,280 --> 01:03:19,239 Originism is utilized by Acumanists at Saint Vladimir Seminary at Fordham. They're all Acumanists 672 01:03:19,280 --> 01:03:23,159 and they really like origin because he's amenable to that. Right, Yeah, 673 01:03:23,360 --> 01:03:28,119 I'm definitely really do it when the herd one's origin Well, they all do 674 01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:34,199 because it's what originism is. Neoplatonism. Okay, with a veneer of Christianity. 675 01:03:34,239 --> 01:03:37,119 It's like, okay, there's Christianity, but the real Christianity is what 676 01:03:37,239 --> 01:03:39,960 I'm telling you. And if you read the four page condemnation at the sixth 677 01:03:40,039 --> 01:03:45,760 Council, it's called the Confession of Saint Semphronius. There's a four page condemnation 678 01:03:45,800 --> 01:03:50,679 of the Council accepts explaining the entire system of Origin, and it says that 679 01:03:50,719 --> 01:03:55,000 when or for example, it says that when Origin posits that the creation of 680 01:03:55,079 --> 01:04:00,519 Adam and Eve in the garden is really a myth about the platonic fall into 681 01:04:00,679 --> 01:04:05,159 having bodies, they said, that is a ridiculous pagan myth. Okay. 682 01:04:06,360 --> 01:04:11,719 And when we read Origins first principles, right, he's the one that first 683 01:04:11,800 --> 01:04:16,840 defines absolute DeWine simplicity. He uses the Neoplatonic definition of what God's divinity is 684 01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:23,000 in terms of simplicity. And it's repeated by Augustine. So and I'm not 685 01:04:23,079 --> 01:04:27,679 saying that Origin it's because they're getting it from Neoplatonism. It's not. Augustine 686 01:04:27,719 --> 01:04:30,719 wasn't getting it from Origin. But I'm saying that the definition is the same 687 01:04:30,199 --> 01:04:35,440 because they have different and erroneous triadic models. Origins triatic model is based on 688 01:04:35,639 --> 01:04:43,880 Neoplatonism, Okay, yeah, okay, but that's not the Orthodox Church's trinity 689 01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:47,639 model. You understand, that's not what's accepted at Constantinople one. And so 690 01:04:47,840 --> 01:04:53,559 just because there, in other words, we wouldn't accept the speculations of Nissa 691 01:04:53,599 --> 01:04:58,800 anymore than we would accept the speculations of Augustine. When the church later has 692 01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:01,400 a you know, theological counsel what says, no, we can't accept this. 693 01:05:01,480 --> 01:05:04,840 And that's why if you look at the Sunday of Orthodoxy, a lot 694 01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:11,239 of the church doesn't do it, but you have appended to it the U 695 01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:20,000 the uh Sonoticon, and the Sonoticon explicitly rejects origin as well. So Platonism 696 01:05:20,119 --> 01:05:28,280 is rejected, Aristotilianism is ejected, rejected. Originism is explicitly rejected. So 697 01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:30,519 you know, if you want to be an originist or a neo Platonist, 698 01:05:30,920 --> 01:05:34,360 people can go do that in their you know, perennialist circles. It's not 699 01:05:34,440 --> 01:05:42,880 the Orthodox Church though, by the way, Maximus got things wrong too. 700 01:05:43,639 --> 01:05:46,960 Maximus thinks, and I think this Maxim has definitely had some some inclinations toward 701 01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:53,000 that as well, because yeah, exactly, the whole well, hold on, 702 01:05:53,079 --> 01:05:54,800 hold on, let's be clear here. Let's be clear, hear, 703 01:05:54,920 --> 01:06:01,719 because the two the ambiguous two books he wrote mainly going against originism in his 704 01:06:01,880 --> 01:06:10,400 Origins Universalism, but also areas where he takes on difficulties in Nissa and one 705 01:06:10,440 --> 01:06:13,599 of the places where origin also, I mean, excuse me. Where Maximus 706 01:06:13,679 --> 01:06:17,079 I think is still even wrong is that he believes that gender is a result 707 01:06:17,159 --> 01:06:20,480 of the fall, so men and women are a results. I don't think 708 01:06:20,519 --> 01:06:24,960 that's right. I think that that's contrary to what the narrative of Genesis says. 709 01:06:25,000 --> 01:06:28,800 So even Maximus can be wrong about things. So we don't pick and 710 01:06:29,000 --> 01:06:31,239 choose out of the church fathers, right, we have the consensus of the 711 01:06:31,360 --> 01:06:34,440 Church fathers, and then over time we have to submit to the Church. 712 01:06:34,519 --> 01:06:38,280 And so if the church in Council's five, six, and seven, and 713 01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:45,000 then the Sonauticon of the seventh, it's really explicit that we can't be originistic 714 01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:49,880 apocatastasis believers. So forgive me from my ignorance. Sure, but in the 715 01:06:49,920 --> 01:06:56,559 the Orthodox perspective, you can have spiritual fatherhood, you can have spiritual leadership, 716 01:06:56,719 --> 01:07:01,079 but ultimately, if there's an ecumenical council, it's going to take precedent 717 01:07:01,199 --> 01:07:06,320 over absolutely speculation, and I think does that go indefinitely? I mean, 718 01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:10,159 is there a certain point where you're like about that that part of the church 719 01:07:10,280 --> 01:07:13,039 is good, because there's parts of the Orthodox Church that don't. They are 720 01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:16,159 in communion with each other now, and so does the string go all the 721 01:07:16,239 --> 01:07:20,360 way down to today? And I know you'd say it would, But how 722 01:07:20,400 --> 01:07:23,599 do you how do you pick the right string? I guess is what I'm 723 01:07:23,599 --> 01:07:30,199 asking. Well, So the Church in history has had many times when various 724 01:07:30,239 --> 01:07:33,719 patriarchs and bishops were out of communion with others. So that is a canonical 725 01:07:33,880 --> 01:07:39,639 stage in discipline. It doesn't necessarily mean that the theology is different, right, 726 01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:44,280 So that comes at a certain point when there's mutual excommunication and then the 727 01:07:44,400 --> 01:07:46,760 churches don't recognize one another. So just being out of communion with one another 728 01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:53,000 is just a stage of canonical discipline. And sometimes you know, that's reconciled, 729 01:07:53,079 --> 01:07:56,519 like we just had the I think the Macedonian Schism, which lasted for 730 01:07:56,599 --> 01:08:00,239 a good while was just recently reconciled. But other times it's not reconciled, 731 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:04,880 so and then eventually the church's part ways. So time has a lot to 732 01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:09,719 do with vindicating and making it clear who is right and who is wrong. 733 01:08:11,880 --> 01:08:15,399 So that's one element to this, which is a version of reception And I 734 01:08:15,439 --> 01:08:19,439 don't care whether you Roman Catholic or Orthodox. I mean, everybody's going to 735 01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:25,600 have to have some idea of that receptionism over time. So for the Roman 736 01:08:25,640 --> 01:08:28,439 Catholics, it's right like, well is it this pope or that pope? 737 01:08:28,479 --> 01:08:30,840 Well, time will tell or this council will tell, which is ironic because 738 01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:36,319 right the Council of Constance is determining the right pope when there's rival posts. 739 01:08:36,359 --> 01:08:44,479 But anyway, so hold on. So that that's just one element as to 740 01:08:45,079 --> 01:08:47,359 his in history. How the church recognizes it, But there's no way to 741 01:08:47,479 --> 01:08:50,199 know. I mean, it depends on what kind of a division we're talking 742 01:08:50,199 --> 01:08:54,920 about. We're talking about, like disputes over jurisdictions. That's not the same 743 01:08:55,000 --> 01:08:59,560 thing as disputes over dogment theology. That's a little more serious. Right, 744 01:09:00,239 --> 01:09:05,439 So in the Church is considered an Astorian, right, what's that? So 745 01:09:05,600 --> 01:09:10,359 what is in the Armenian Orthodox Church considered historian? By Moost? No, 746 01:09:10,520 --> 01:09:15,479 they're Monophysite, not an Astorian. It's the opposite. Sorry, what was 747 01:09:15,520 --> 01:09:21,119 that? They are considered Monophysite, not an astorian that's the opposite of Nestorianism. 748 01:09:23,720 --> 01:09:26,520 Something like that is pretty fundamental. And so there's the branches of the 749 01:09:26,640 --> 01:09:30,159 Orthodox Church split off. They're not branches. There's no branches in the Orthodox 750 01:09:30,239 --> 01:09:36,640 Church. Okay, they're different, they're different different areas. The Orthodox Church, 751 01:09:38,439 --> 01:09:45,279 the Orthodox Church is a canonical body of people who have patriarchis that they 752 01:09:45,399 --> 01:09:48,520 submit to autocephalist churches in communion with one another, and their their boundaries are 753 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:54,640 determined by by canon law and what who who accepts and is in communi with 754 01:09:54,720 --> 01:09:59,640 who. So that's the canonical Orthodox Church. The canonical Orthodox Church is not 755 01:10:00,039 --> 01:10:02,840 what you're calling the Armenians or the Coptics. That's a different group that's not 756 01:10:02,960 --> 01:10:11,880 part of our group. What is your posture towards them that they're they are 757 01:10:11,960 --> 01:10:20,279 in schism, They are not Orthodox churches, correct, gotcha? I mean 758 01:10:20,359 --> 01:10:26,279 they hold to heresies too. But so so, the Orthodox Church is a 759 01:10:26,359 --> 01:10:29,199 singular body. It's a we believe that we are the one true Church. 760 01:10:29,680 --> 01:10:35,560 So that's different from just because the Coptics have the name Orthodox doesn't mean anything, 761 01:10:35,640 --> 01:10:39,760 just like Roman Catholics have the name Catholic. Well, we believe we're 762 01:10:39,800 --> 01:10:45,239 the Orthodox Catholic Church. So right, good questions, though, just stick 763 01:10:45,359 --> 01:10:49,880 stick to it. I would say check out the book The Confession of Saint 764 01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:56,199 Semphronius from the sixth Council and that you can get that on Amazon. I 765 01:10:56,239 --> 01:11:01,239 would also get Maximus's ambiguous because he goes into critique origin and originism. And 766 01:11:01,399 --> 01:11:05,159 really, if you get into the nature person distinction, if we lay out 767 01:11:05,239 --> 01:11:10,319 exactly what the nature person distinction is, really a lot of that stuff with 768 01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:15,560 n uh or David Benley Heart, it all gets kind of cleared up because 769 01:11:16,680 --> 01:11:20,439 confusing nature in person, not just in God, but confusing nature in person 770 01:11:20,479 --> 01:11:27,520 and anthropology is the source of for example, David Bentley Heart's mistake. Militant 771 01:11:27,560 --> 01:11:51,960 Thomas, what's updude? Just hit a mute? Are you there, Militant 772 01:11:53,000 --> 01:12:10,000 Thomas? Are you there? You have the floor? Dog? Where you 773 01:12:10,079 --> 01:12:24,039 at? I want you to speak so but I don't know why I can't 774 01:12:24,079 --> 01:12:27,239 hear you. So maybe try coming out and coming back in see if that 775 01:12:27,319 --> 01:12:39,760 works. You might have to turn. Let's try again here. Try Now, 776 01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,720 can you hear me? Yeah? I can kind I can kind of 777 01:12:45,800 --> 01:12:47,520 hear you. Okay, I can hear you. Now, I can hear 778 01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:53,119 I can hear you. Now go ahead? Okay, good well, oh 779 01:12:53,279 --> 01:12:58,199 Jay, you know I can. I can do book you really hard right 780 01:12:58,239 --> 01:13:01,560 now? You know you know how how's that? Oh? It's it's because 781 01:13:01,800 --> 01:13:08,319 you're you're uncharitable in your unnuanced Oh man, can you rash judgments all the 782 01:13:08,399 --> 01:13:11,800 time? Jake? You know? Do I need to engage in public repentance? 783 01:13:12,159 --> 01:13:15,039 Uh? Dude, you need to. You need to go like full 784 01:13:15,159 --> 01:13:21,960 on like medieval potentiaries, flagelent, flagelent on your knees. If I roll 785 01:13:23,039 --> 01:13:26,760 over glass on my knees and I flagelate myself with a cat of nine tails 786 01:13:26,840 --> 01:13:30,399 whip? Is that enough repentance for you, Michael Lofton? Or do I 787 01:13:30,520 --> 01:13:32,920 need more? No? No, you gotta you gotta get some pot mama 788 01:13:32,960 --> 01:13:39,279 too in there? Okay, okay, well patcha mama is basically married because 789 01:13:39,279 --> 01:13:42,680 they're both women, So I guess that's the same thing, right, That's 790 01:13:42,760 --> 01:13:45,520 that's true. That's a good point, Jay. Or when when do you 791 01:13:45,800 --> 01:13:50,119 when are you joining in the church? When I finished the public penance with 792 01:13:50,239 --> 01:13:53,439 the cat of nine tails, so I got to do that first. Then? 793 01:13:54,079 --> 01:14:02,119 Oh, okay, are you there? Hello? You robot it there? 794 01:14:02,119 --> 01:14:13,560 Are you there? Try again if you want to maybe come out and 795 01:14:13,600 --> 01:14:15,159 come back in, because I imagine you have a point you want to make. 796 01:14:15,239 --> 01:14:17,880 You can have the floor, you can make whatever point you want to 797 01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:23,640 make. We allow the opponents to speak around here. We're not afraid of 798 01:14:24,119 --> 01:14:30,079 letting the opponent speak. Are you there? Try coming out and coming back 799 01:14:30,119 --> 01:14:31,520 in again because there's not any sound, and then I'll give you the mic. 800 01:14:34,079 --> 01:14:38,199 Can you hear me? You must be on the road or something. 801 01:14:41,159 --> 01:14:43,560 Just come right back in and I'll give you the mic. Let's see, 802 01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:56,840 let's try one more person while he's doing that loom Villa loom via. Thank 803 01:14:56,880 --> 01:14:58,880 you guys for those super chowts. We'll get to some of those are in 804 01:14:58,960 --> 01:15:02,840 a second loom via what's up? Hey, how's it going, Hey, 805 01:15:03,199 --> 01:15:09,079 what's on your mind? I was actually I was actually a Christian. For 806 01:15:09,159 --> 01:15:15,000 a while, I was Catholic, and then I slowly went into Buddhism. 807 01:15:15,079 --> 01:15:19,560 But then I kind of went to even further, just to seeing like philosophy 808 01:15:19,640 --> 01:15:29,439 in itself, and I realized Christianity to me seems like I guess the word 809 01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,439 for the kind of word they used at the time was an allegoresis, where 810 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:42,920 religious stories whether like whatever religion it is, takes philosophy and kind of um 811 01:15:43,520 --> 01:15:47,239 puts it into like a packet or like a metaphor, or they take philosophy 812 01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:53,359 and kind of condense it into a story, and it kind of I did 813 01:15:53,399 --> 01:15:59,880 a lot of analysis on the New Testament and the Old Testament and how they 814 01:16:00,119 --> 01:16:05,079 were creating a kind of Uh, it's kind of like I could see the 815 01:16:05,199 --> 01:16:10,640 nuggets of wisdom that in there, but I don't actually believe they literally happened, 816 01:16:11,319 --> 01:16:17,880 but they can kind of It's kind of like for most people to under 817 01:16:18,079 --> 01:16:25,880 rather than most people taking whole philosophy courses, the the the stories can help 818 01:16:26,399 --> 01:16:30,680 kind of give them an idea. Ok So they're just like mythical self help 819 01:16:30,840 --> 01:16:34,840 stories or something like that. Yeah, okay, where it's kind of like 820 01:16:35,720 --> 01:16:41,920 and it's kind of like based on Plato's idea of the noble lie where I 821 01:16:42,039 --> 01:16:45,439 actually take a methisis position where I don't think you could ever prove it. 822 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:51,199 But I think with all the how all the documents developed, like the Gospels, 823 01:16:51,239 --> 01:16:57,199 and how each how they how they're changed and were edited over time, 824 01:16:57,640 --> 01:17:03,199 I think it makes more sense for like the evolution of the ideas that Jesus 825 01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:12,279 and also Buddha were most likely just made up to be like a role model 826 01:17:12,359 --> 01:17:20,680 to kind of the like a character in the story that represents the writer's philosophy 827 01:17:20,760 --> 01:17:28,560 and morality and puts it into practice for the Okay, so they're fables, 828 01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:31,560 I got it. So they're they're fables. Okay, So what is the 829 01:17:32,239 --> 01:17:36,760 real true philosophy or worldview that we should believe? What's what's your view? 830 01:17:36,960 --> 01:17:41,159 What's your world view? So the Bible's not true, so what what should 831 01:17:41,159 --> 01:17:49,439 we believe? It's um it like to actually explain it would be, you 832 01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:51,560 know, it's kind of like, okay, so it's it's too it's too 833 01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,760 deep for us. I got it. It's kind of like it's too deep 834 01:17:54,800 --> 01:17:57,560 for us. I know we're low Q. I got it, We're low 835 01:17:57,720 --> 01:18:00,560 Q is too deep. But what I really not really low IQ, but 836 01:18:00,720 --> 01:18:06,000 more like it's kind of like it's kind of like essence and energies where each 837 01:18:08,439 --> 01:18:11,119 it I might butcher the idea, but it's kind of like no one can 838 01:18:11,199 --> 01:18:15,199 know God's essence, right, But that's what each religion is trying to explain. 839 01:18:15,880 --> 01:18:20,960 So each religion trying to they whatever you write down, it's going to 840 01:18:21,039 --> 01:18:28,720 fall short of whatever's like, actually there so so whatever it's written down, 841 01:18:29,159 --> 01:18:30,760 So if I wrote down So, if I wrote down what you just said 842 01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:36,720 the last three sentences, does it it doesn't work anymore? Well, even 843 01:18:36,840 --> 01:18:42,319 what I say, it's like no matter what words you use, I'm like, 844 01:18:42,479 --> 01:18:45,800 even what I'm saying, it's like, how to approach it is through 845 01:18:46,680 --> 01:18:50,800 there's like a method where you learn more. It's kind of like a limit 846 01:18:50,880 --> 01:18:58,800 function and calculus right where it's like you approach a better understanding of it the 847 01:18:58,960 --> 01:19:03,079 more you learn about it. But you the words who used will never accurately 848 01:19:03,399 --> 01:19:09,279 soott yeah, eastern As the limit approach is infinity, you get a better 849 01:19:09,359 --> 01:19:14,079 and better approximation of what I'm talking about. Okay, so it will it 850 01:19:14,119 --> 01:19:18,520 will always The words I'm using will never accurately describe it. But you, 851 01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:25,079 through a method of intellectual exhaustion, you could get closer and closer to getting 852 01:19:25,079 --> 01:19:29,079 a better picture of what it actually is. Okay, So how do how 853 01:19:29,119 --> 01:19:34,399 do we know that we're actually approximating any anything quote closer? Given what you 854 01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:40,680 said about the words not matching up to this infinite thing, how do we 855 01:19:40,760 --> 01:19:45,960 know we're getting closer to anything? Well, through the through a process of 856 01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:51,760 elimination, you could just like show. So it's about like apathetic, like 857 01:19:51,800 --> 01:19:55,760 the via negativ that you're saying, Do we do that with mathematics or something? 858 01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:59,520 What? How do we know that that's telling us about God? And 859 01:19:59,800 --> 01:20:02,119 what? What is there's not a God or what is it just an infinite 860 01:20:02,520 --> 01:20:06,560 thusness? I mean, what are we talking about? Well, they're like, 861 01:20:08,199 --> 01:20:11,000 I'm trying to like condense so much information, so I know, I 862 01:20:11,079 --> 01:20:15,039 gotta but is there an argument? What's the argument for this? There's this 863 01:20:15,319 --> 01:20:24,680 uh concepts both in Greek and uh Dermic thought called the tetralemma, where it's 864 01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:30,720 like God or the One or whatever you want to call it is beyond these 865 01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:36,880 four statements or I'm not sure when to call them, like logical states, 866 01:20:38,159 --> 01:20:44,800 where the four states are God exists, God does not exist. God both 867 01:20:44,960 --> 01:20:49,199 exists and does not exist, and God neither exists nor not exists, and 868 01:20:49,359 --> 01:20:56,439 God is beyond all four of those. Okay, So like um, it's 869 01:20:56,520 --> 01:21:01,520 kind of like better describing how God is both everywhere and nowhere, like he's 870 01:21:01,720 --> 01:21:06,199 outside of existence but all through existence. So in kind of a way, 871 01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:12,520 like the words themselves are kind of pointless right where you could say God is 872 01:21:12,760 --> 01:21:15,000 outside of existence, which is the same thing I thing he doesn't exist, 873 01:21:15,439 --> 01:21:20,439 or God is now everything you're saying, everything you're saying is garbled. You 874 01:21:20,520 --> 01:21:25,800 know you can prove it wrong no matter what if you're not rambling. All 875 01:21:25,840 --> 01:21:29,000 right, So now it's all garbled nonsense. I apologize, but that's not 876 01:21:29,039 --> 01:21:32,840 gonna go anywhere. So yeah, if we can't make positive predicates and everything 877 01:21:33,000 --> 01:21:38,039 is just garbled nonsense and everything cancels out everything, then everything that you were 878 01:21:38,079 --> 01:21:49,600 saying canceled the self out. What's up, militant Thomas? Can you hit 879 01:21:49,680 --> 01:22:10,479 him? Try to talk? Now you're there, I guess you can keep 880 01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:15,039 trying. Well, we'll move on to Jack Victor. What's up Jack? 881 01:22:27,079 --> 01:22:30,560 Hi Jay? What's up? How you doing? Jack? Um? Well, 882 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:35,359 I'm a last son of Evangelicalism, and once I read pilled On just 883 01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:41,720 the total dishonesty of Protestantism, I wanted them to do with nine of them. 884 01:22:42,439 --> 01:22:46,319 But I'm not so sure that orthodoxy is meaningfully that different. Um, 885 01:22:46,399 --> 01:22:51,600 So here's my question. Um, all these eleven people seem to agree on 886 01:22:51,800 --> 01:23:00,359 one thing. Jesus the Apostle, paul Tertullian Justin Martyr or Moss, Origins, 887 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,760 Climent, Cyprian, Athenagoras, and Theopolis of Antioch. They all agree 888 01:23:06,560 --> 01:23:12,720 that a woman who gets remarried while her husband is alive is comming the adultery. 889 01:23:14,239 --> 01:23:24,960 So help me understand the Orthodox position on how they justify remarrying women whose 890 01:23:25,039 --> 01:23:28,520 husbands are still alive. Okay, Well, first of all, it wouldn't 891 01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:31,840 matter what Pertillion says, because Pertillion ended up a heretic, so I don't 892 01:23:31,920 --> 01:23:36,600 really think he's that relevant. We don't accept all the documents that you listed. 893 01:23:38,319 --> 01:23:42,399 There's a lot of things that some of the apologists in the first and 894 01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:46,039 second century believe that nobody ends up believing. So just because we can kind 895 01:23:46,079 --> 01:23:48,800 of find different views at different times. I mean, for example, some 896 01:23:48,920 --> 01:23:53,640 of those people at that time believe that if you were a traded tour or 897 01:23:53,680 --> 01:23:57,239 if you had surrendered the scriptures under persecution, you could never be saved. 898 01:23:57,760 --> 01:24:00,600 So some of those people thought there were certain sins that you could never repent 899 01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,640 if I'm never received forgiveness from now. When it comes to the specific issue 900 01:24:03,760 --> 01:24:08,960 of what's allowable that first of all, the Orthodox Church doesn't promote or allow 901 01:24:09,119 --> 01:24:14,840 quote divorce. It does in certain cases for the issue of fornication, allow 902 01:24:15,479 --> 01:24:18,840 a woman or a man to remarry because of what Christ said in the case 903 01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:24,800 of fornication. And so the canons of Saint Basil, for example, allow 904 01:24:24,920 --> 01:24:28,079 for that, and those were normative in the East for centuries, and so 905 01:24:28,359 --> 01:24:32,880 even the Roman Catholic Church canon of Saint Basil, it would be in the 906 01:24:33,000 --> 01:24:39,720 days of Basil, so that would be in the three hundreds. So another 907 01:24:39,880 --> 01:24:43,119 what I'm getting at is that you can cite individual church fathers, just like 908 01:24:43,239 --> 01:24:46,079 that guy was citing Nissa. But but you would agree it's kind of the 909 01:24:46,239 --> 01:24:53,399 overwhelming number of church fathers. No, it's not. No, it's not 910 01:24:53,680 --> 01:24:59,359 Jesus. Just by the way Jesus says that except for fornication. So the 911 01:24:59,520 --> 01:25:04,840 Orthodox Church interprets that as that importication is also a reason why you can remarry, 912 01:25:05,640 --> 01:25:10,319 and it's but I think I think one thing that you know that when 913 01:25:10,479 --> 01:25:13,880 Jesus makes that exhemption, and I think this is what all of these church 914 01:25:13,960 --> 01:25:17,239 follows would also echo, is that he was only making that. You know, 915 01:25:17,399 --> 01:25:21,560 Jesus is using you know, we have in most of the passages. 916 01:25:21,600 --> 01:25:27,960 There's only one exemption in Matthew nineteen where it says, okay except for um 917 01:25:28,479 --> 01:25:35,239 cornea. But he's specifically addressing men and that in that statement, he's not 918 01:25:35,479 --> 01:25:40,680 ever permitting women to remarry. In the fact, when he makes Jesus four 919 01:25:40,800 --> 01:25:45,039 times in three of our gospels explicitly says a divorced woman who gets remarried commits 920 01:25:45,119 --> 01:25:49,439 adultery. So it seems to me you have to kind of eliminate the gender. 921 01:25:49,600 --> 01:25:54,039 So wait a minute, why why wait, why would he why would 922 01:25:54,079 --> 01:25:59,760 that only be for one of the genders. Well, because we because Jesus, 923 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:04,720 all the passage in the New Testament that talk about divorce and marriage use 924 01:26:05,159 --> 01:26:09,840 very explicit gendered language to describe what they say. This is the role of 925 01:26:09,920 --> 01:26:13,199 men and this is the role of women. They make that distinction because there 926 01:26:13,359 --> 01:26:16,760 is a hierarchy within the marriage. I think it's a reflection of you know, 927 01:26:16,800 --> 01:26:20,800 when you see in numbers, I believe thirty is thirty where you know, 928 01:26:21,239 --> 01:26:26,399 a woman cannot make a vow, She cannot you know, enter into 929 01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:31,319 a binding agreement unless her father or her husband consents to it. So how 930 01:26:31,399 --> 01:26:36,279 can a woman then, you know, choose to divorce her husband and then 931 01:26:36,520 --> 01:26:41,439 enter into a new arrangement, which she doesn't. She simably doesn't have that 932 01:26:41,600 --> 01:26:45,039 authority to begin with. And I think that even the early fathers also make 933 01:26:45,079 --> 01:26:55,039 that distinction when they are speaking about very often with women who you know that 934 01:26:55,520 --> 01:26:59,039 there is a distinction between the hold on so two things here. So you're 935 01:26:59,119 --> 01:27:01,520 right in principle obviously in the ancient world, in the medieval world too, 936 01:27:01,760 --> 01:27:05,399 the typically a woman wouldn't have the authority to do those things kind of on 937 01:27:05,479 --> 01:27:10,239 our own. But I think that one thing that happens with canon law, 938 01:27:10,319 --> 01:27:13,279 and by the way, can the Orthodox Church is not operating the basis of 939 01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:15,279 like citing this or that church father, And so when you say that the 940 01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:19,279 majority of the church fathers, that's absolutely wrong, because the cannons are what 941 01:27:19,399 --> 01:27:24,159 become normative, not individual church fathers and sort of going through them like a 942 01:27:24,279 --> 01:27:28,279 Protestant sort of quote mining. When the cannons are accepted, the cannons that 943 01:27:28,359 --> 01:27:31,399 are normative trump all of that, because the cannons are accepted at the councils, 944 01:27:31,520 --> 01:27:35,560 you see. So if it's normative for the Brazilian cannons to be accepted, 945 01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:40,960 that's the norm. Not what did Athenagoras? What didation? What adjustin 946 01:27:41,000 --> 01:27:45,880 martyr this or that person say, because again there's other examples where you could 947 01:27:45,920 --> 01:27:48,439 say, well, a lot of and this happened when you had the disputes 948 01:27:48,479 --> 01:27:55,079 with the novationists and the sort of what would become the donatists like they made 949 01:27:55,119 --> 01:27:59,520 the argument that well, earlier church fathers were on our side, that if 950 01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:04,560 you folded under persecution, you can't be saved, and they would cite, 951 01:28:04,600 --> 01:28:08,359 you know, Hebrew six, that you've tasted the heavenly gift, you can't 952 01:28:08,399 --> 01:28:12,960 be saved. So so that that rigorous view, which was actually popular at 953 01:28:13,000 --> 01:28:17,560 certain times in the first and second century, eventually was ruled canonically to be 954 01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:21,399 wrong. So just because something at a certain point in time, even if 955 01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:27,000 it is the majority view. Give another example, the death penalty. There 956 01:28:27,039 --> 01:28:30,760 are some church fathers that do not agree on the death penalty or whether you 957 01:28:30,880 --> 01:28:34,880 could, for example, be a Christian and serve in the military. But 958 01:28:35,000 --> 01:28:38,760 when you go to the Council of Nicea, this question is raised in the 959 01:28:38,840 --> 01:28:41,960 canons, and the Cannons of Nicias say no, actually, you can be 960 01:28:42,239 --> 01:28:45,640 a Christian and be in the military. Despite many first and second and third 961 01:28:45,720 --> 01:28:53,800 century church fathers and writers, Patristic writers opining that it's absolutely impossible to kill 962 01:28:54,239 --> 01:28:58,199 and be a Christian. So you see how it doesn't really work to just 963 01:28:58,359 --> 01:29:02,840 say, well, when you look at just the statements about Jesus and Paul, 964 01:29:02,920 --> 01:29:08,359 you know, Paul says twice a woman is legally bound as long as 965 01:29:08,399 --> 01:29:12,039 her husband is alive. These are very clear statements. And also that we 966 01:29:12,119 --> 01:29:16,279 don't only have any church early church fathers at all who are making statements in 967 01:29:16,399 --> 01:29:20,119 support of women getting remarried while their husbands are alive. It seems to me 968 01:29:20,199 --> 01:29:27,039 it's just a pragmatic institutional decision way down the line. Yeah, and again 969 01:29:27,159 --> 01:29:30,399 I understand that at certain times, like in the ancient world, right, 970 01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:35,680 it wasn't there weren't as many equalitarian notions. I understand that, but not 971 01:29:36,039 --> 01:29:41,920 the Asian law is actually just within the whole Testament law. It was very 972 01:29:42,039 --> 01:29:45,800 okay. But the Church is. So this is a principle of economia which 973 01:29:45,920 --> 01:29:50,239 every council, when you read the councils, they talk about how the law 974 01:29:50,439 --> 01:29:56,720 is to be interpreted. So just like the Jews had rabbinical courts, right, 975 01:29:56,800 --> 01:30:00,439 and the rabbinical courts would make decisions on these kinds of issues, the 976 01:30:00,520 --> 01:30:04,439 Church adopted a very similar model where the Church has synods, and then the 977 01:30:04,520 --> 01:30:10,199 synods basically interpret and enforce the laws and the rules. So it's not just 978 01:30:10,319 --> 01:30:13,680 a matter of I'm going to go back and read what the canon say, 979 01:30:13,880 --> 01:30:15,760 or I'm going to go back and read what the Old Testament, you know, 980 01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:19,600 political law said, and then I'll apply that based on like my modern 981 01:30:19,640 --> 01:30:26,560 Protestant presupositions, the Church always had the authority at the local level to interpret 982 01:30:26,640 --> 01:30:29,840 and enforce the canons. Now that doesn't mean they always did it faithfully. 983 01:30:29,920 --> 01:30:32,039 Sometimes they messed up. Sometimes the Church made error, and in certain regions 984 01:30:32,359 --> 01:30:36,560 certain places were wrong. But what I'm getting at is that it's not a 985 01:30:36,640 --> 01:30:40,880 matter of you deciding that, well, Paul says this, and so I'm 986 01:30:40,880 --> 01:30:45,239 going to interpret it that way. The Church interprets the canons and applies them 987 01:30:45,600 --> 01:30:49,359 as the Church sees fit to those situations. And that's why Jesus set up 988 01:30:49,399 --> 01:30:57,199 in a body that has authority. That's what the Apostolic deposit has as the 989 01:30:57,319 --> 01:31:01,800 absolute succession, right. It is like, it's not just Protestant like abstract 990 01:31:01,920 --> 01:31:08,840 doctrines. It's a body of people like the rabbinical sages who would interpret and 991 01:31:09,000 --> 01:31:12,840 enforce the law. The church has that same model of interpreting and enforcing the 992 01:31:12,920 --> 01:31:17,079 law. Yeah, we have the institutional authorities. So what we say our 993 01:31:17,159 --> 01:31:20,399 canons, you know, we get together. No, it's not so. 994 01:31:20,600 --> 01:31:25,039 Yeah, so you're just back to more Protestants, the Protestants to get together 995 01:31:25,159 --> 01:31:29,279 with the Westminster Confession. We have a cabal of politicians and religious leaders. 996 01:31:29,439 --> 01:31:31,720 Yeah, it's not a cabal. So did Jesus say that he would lay 997 01:31:31,800 --> 01:31:35,920 down a body, that he would establish a body of people or not. 998 01:31:36,039 --> 01:31:39,720 He says that he that hears you, here's me. So there's a normative 999 01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:43,760 authority. So you're just likning the Orthodox Church to any other church and saying, 1000 01:31:43,760 --> 01:31:45,119 well, you're just a cabal. Well, Jesus said that the Holy 1001 01:31:45,159 --> 01:31:48,560 Spirit would guide and lead the church into all truth. So when did the 1002 01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:51,119 church in your in your view, when did the Holy Spirit leave the church? 1003 01:31:54,840 --> 01:32:00,720 I don't believe that the church has represented in any particular human institution. 1004 01:32:00,399 --> 01:32:03,439 Okay, well, the church is not a human institution. It's a thanthropic 1005 01:32:03,560 --> 01:32:09,800 institution. I think that the church is a collection of individuals who are regenerate 1006 01:32:09,920 --> 01:32:13,199 and you know, you know, have the Holy Spirit. So and who 1007 01:32:13,359 --> 01:32:15,199 is that who who is that? Is that the same church that put the 1008 01:32:15,239 --> 01:32:25,199 Bible together? Um? The men who had the Holy Spirit? How well, 1009 01:32:25,479 --> 01:32:29,399 how do you know who has the Holy Spirit? Um? There's no 1010 01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:32,800 public ultimately say okay, so, but there's no public way to adjudicate between 1011 01:32:32,960 --> 01:32:39,560 rival holy spirit claims. I think that individual men who are who have faith 1012 01:32:39,600 --> 01:32:44,039 in Jesus Christ can make assessments about Okay, so a Mormon says that. 1013 01:32:44,119 --> 01:32:46,039 A Mormon says, I'm an individual has faith in Jesus Christ. Does he 1014 01:32:46,159 --> 01:32:58,199 participate in your true church? Uh? I don't know to participate? He 1015 01:32:58,319 --> 01:33:01,439 can, he can, he can go wherever the if he has the Holy 1016 01:33:01,479 --> 01:33:03,960 Spirit. Okay, So now I can be an anti trinitari. I could 1017 01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:06,239 be a Mormon, an anti Trinitarian, and I have the Holy Spirit. 1018 01:33:06,359 --> 01:33:12,119 So you are hung up on this weird thing to do with like divorce. 1019 01:33:12,720 --> 01:33:15,239 But in your view, Mormons are acceptable, so the Trinity doesn't even matter 1020 01:33:16,760 --> 01:33:18,920 that at all. You did say that, you said that he can go 1021 01:33:19,000 --> 01:33:23,479 where the Holy Spirit leads. So I'm a Mormon. I know, I 1022 01:33:23,600 --> 01:33:27,800 caveat it with to say if if he does have the Holy Spirit, how 1023 01:33:27,880 --> 01:33:30,079 could a Mormon have the Holy Spirit when a Mormon is an anti Trinitarian. 1024 01:33:31,800 --> 01:33:36,119 Yeah, I don't. Well, I so you right now, I'm kind 1025 01:33:36,119 --> 01:33:41,920 of looking more towards um anti Baptism, and I think okay, so so 1026 01:33:42,119 --> 01:33:45,199 yeah, then that would make sense with your heresy because you said that the 1027 01:33:45,600 --> 01:33:50,600 you basically would require the church blacking out. So the Antbaptist, the Anabaptist 1028 01:33:50,600 --> 01:33:56,640 theology believes that the church blacked out. Okay, where was it? Okay? 1029 01:33:56,760 --> 01:34:01,399 Where was it in the fourth century? Um in individuals? Who are 1030 01:34:01,720 --> 01:34:03,960 and where are it? So you're just, yeah, you don't have any 1031 01:34:04,039 --> 01:34:12,680 examples of people who believe that. So it's just theoretic when Jesus entered the 1032 01:34:12,800 --> 01:34:16,840 world. I'm not asking about what you think the Gospel says. I want 1033 01:34:16,880 --> 01:34:20,000 to know about the fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh century. Where were 1034 01:34:20,199 --> 01:34:24,439 your true Christians there? Give me an example of one? What group? 1035 01:34:24,520 --> 01:34:30,680 Anybody where? Why does it have to be an institutional group because Jesus said 1036 01:34:30,800 --> 01:34:33,840 that there's one that Paul says, there's one Lord, one faith, one 1037 01:34:33,920 --> 01:34:39,399 body. The church is his body? Is Jesus body invisible? Did he 1038 01:34:39,479 --> 01:34:42,800 have a did he have a visible body or an invisible body? It's an 1039 01:34:42,880 --> 01:34:46,239 institution. It is an institution. It's a human institution that you can it's 1040 01:34:46,359 --> 01:34:51,079 it's a divine human institution. It's a divine human institution. It's the very 1041 01:34:51,119 --> 01:34:55,680 institution that the Apostle said up Paul said he laid hands on Timothy and that 1042 01:34:55,760 --> 01:34:59,000 Timothy would pass the Holy Spirit. You're not You're not if you're not going 1043 01:34:59,039 --> 01:35:01,119 to listen, if you're gonna keep interrupting. Didn't Paul say that he would 1044 01:35:01,199 --> 01:35:04,960 lay hands on Timothy and he told Timothy to lay hands on people after him 1045 01:35:05,000 --> 01:35:14,199 in a pass on the gift of the Holy Spirit? Is that not a 1046 01:35:14,359 --> 01:35:20,720 historical visible institution the church at Ephesus where Timothy was a bishop. I think 1047 01:35:20,800 --> 01:35:27,159 my understanding of that early church, what does that passage mean? I specifically 1048 01:35:27,239 --> 01:35:33,960 gave you a passage there wasn't. My understanding is that there wasn't. Necessarily 1049 01:35:34,000 --> 01:35:38,479 it was more of a brotherhood with the Apostle. So you're not going to 1050 01:35:38,560 --> 01:35:45,239 answer the specific passages exactly. All right, goodbye, go ahead, militant 1051 01:35:45,279 --> 01:35:56,000 Thomas. Okay it finally, yeah, I can hear you. Go ahead, 1052 01:35:57,039 --> 01:36:00,840 Okay, good good. So I was originally going to ask something about 1053 01:36:00,399 --> 01:36:04,039 Damascenes dialectica, but I actually thought it something more interesting to ask you, 1054 01:36:04,079 --> 01:36:10,880 because I've been wondering this myself. So how does the issue of the canon 1055 01:36:10,960 --> 01:36:15,600 of Scripture work within Orthodoxy? I mean there's there's obviously some claims to get 1056 01:36:15,680 --> 01:36:23,199 from Catholics that Orthodox are deebooked because you know, uh, we we had 1057 01:36:23,560 --> 01:36:27,520 the super based Council of Trent, which was able to define our cannon for 1058 01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:30,680 us. And you know that the cringe Orthobros they have, they have no 1059 01:36:31,319 --> 01:36:35,960 ability to make a cannon or anything and crying go to Rome and so on. 1060 01:36:36,399 --> 01:36:41,000 So when it comes to the canon of Scripture within Orthodoxy, like, 1061 01:36:41,159 --> 01:36:44,039 how do you how do you view that? Because it's from my understanding, 1062 01:36:44,720 --> 01:36:49,239 Um, there there's some Orthodox thinkers who restrict the cannon, so why have 1063 01:36:49,319 --> 01:36:55,039 like a tiered sort of system, and then some that basically have an almost 1064 01:36:55,079 --> 01:36:59,680 identical cannon as we do. Yeah. So the Orthodox canon, I would 1065 01:36:59,720 --> 01:37:03,760 say, is confirmed in the ecumenical councils that for example Trullo, even though 1066 01:37:03,760 --> 01:37:10,000 it's not technically ecumenical council, it was received in its canons at the sixth 1067 01:37:10,039 --> 01:37:13,600 and seventh Council. So when Nicia too, you know, when it confirms 1068 01:37:13,760 --> 01:37:18,079 the canons of Carthage through So Trollo says, we accept these specific not every 1069 01:37:18,159 --> 01:37:23,399 Carthage canon, but it's the same canon as the Catholic Church for the most 1070 01:37:23,439 --> 01:37:27,800 part. Now there's some churches who have historically translated and included, like Third 1071 01:37:28,000 --> 01:37:32,239 Esdras and the Slavic can or something like that. But to us, it's 1072 01:37:32,279 --> 01:37:35,640 not that big of a deal, Like it's not like we can't have an 1073 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:40,600 extra book here or there, because the canon for us is there's flexibility in 1074 01:37:40,720 --> 01:37:45,680 that because it's it's it's a liturgical document and the history of the Church is 1075 01:37:45,720 --> 01:37:49,279 always kind of flex flexible on those kinds of things. So the highest council, 1076 01:37:49,359 --> 01:37:54,520 the highest authority for us is the council. So when the Seventh Council 1077 01:37:54,560 --> 01:37:58,520 affirms Trolo, that would include the douter canonical text. But there is a 1078 01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:02,319 there is a hierarchy within liturgy itself. I mean, Paul's epistles are read 1079 01:38:03,039 --> 01:38:06,760 and then they're not given the honor in the liturgy that the Gospels are given. 1080 01:38:06,800 --> 01:38:11,720 So the Gospels are given a higher authority, even authority of honor. 1081 01:38:11,880 --> 01:38:14,720 Right, I'm not saying that that means that the rest of the texts are 1082 01:38:14,760 --> 01:38:17,159 not inspired or whatever, because I mean, the dude, econical texts are 1083 01:38:17,800 --> 01:38:21,279 are part of the cannon. Yeah, yeah, how would I would just 1084 01:38:21,319 --> 01:38:26,600 fit in with um the Apocalypse of Saint John, because from my understanding, 1085 01:38:26,680 --> 01:38:31,359 that was a little bit uh shakier in the East there for a while due 1086 01:38:31,399 --> 01:38:36,119 to the fact that it wasn't read as much in the liturgy. Yeah, 1087 01:38:36,239 --> 01:38:41,319 it's it's cited in one of the one of the daily readings. But I 1088 01:38:41,359 --> 01:38:44,199 don't think there's any reason why we wouldn't include it in the cannons. At 1089 01:38:44,239 --> 01:38:49,800 Saint Athanasius is who convinced Rome to include it in the cannon. You can, 1090 01:38:49,880 --> 01:38:54,720 I also ask about the that's whatever you want, Yeah, whatever you 1091 01:38:54,800 --> 01:39:00,439 want. Yeah. So with the with the Dialectica of Saint John da Messes, 1092 01:39:00,840 --> 01:39:03,039 I've been I've actually been reading through Shan John A Damascus as works. 1093 01:39:03,079 --> 01:39:06,920 I want to read through Maximus after that. I've only read limited readings from 1094 01:39:06,960 --> 01:39:15,720 Maximus. But with Damacy in the Dialectica, he's obviously like presenting some sort 1095 01:39:15,760 --> 01:39:26,439 of like beginning instruction in philosophy as it's necessary for theology, and he does 1096 01:39:26,479 --> 01:39:33,479 a lot of interesting quoting from the peripatetic commentators. Yes, or like Ammonius 1097 01:39:34,119 --> 01:39:39,960 doing that when when it comes to like what he's teaching in philosophy, how 1098 01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,399 does how does that kind of fit in with sort of your vision of how 1099 01:39:44,119 --> 01:39:47,079 philosophy has been received in the Orthodox Church and is it would it be appropriate 1100 01:39:47,279 --> 01:39:55,039 for orthodox to read some of those peripatetic commentators to get an idea of philosophy. 1101 01:39:55,640 --> 01:39:58,239 Yeah. I think if you look at zach Huber's recent book, like 1102 01:39:58,359 --> 01:40:00,760 he talks a lot about by the time of Maxim, but she mean by 1103 01:40:00,760 --> 01:40:05,199 the time of Maximus and John Damascus, Aristotle was a lot more available, 1104 01:40:05,279 --> 01:40:11,880 and so Aristotilianism became a lot more natural. And I think you could argue 1105 01:40:11,880 --> 01:40:15,319 that Damascene is a lot more Aristotilian than he is Neo Platonic Habadocians have more 1106 01:40:15,359 --> 01:40:21,880 influence from Neo Platonic and Platonic philosophy than Aristotle. Obviously Damascene has more Aristotilian 1107 01:40:21,920 --> 01:40:26,720 influence, and so I would say that, Yeah. In fact, I 1108 01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:30,800 did a lecture through the fount of Knowledge, I think six years ago, 1109 01:40:30,840 --> 01:40:35,880 because I think Orthodoxy should be familiar with those topics. Absolutely. Okay, 1110 01:40:36,039 --> 01:40:39,640 Okay, thank you, that's all I had. Yeah, good questions. 1111 01:40:40,560 --> 01:40:46,720 Thank you for that. Let's see Hine, Augustine, what's up, dude. 1112 01:40:50,159 --> 01:40:54,600 Welcome everybody, if you would hit like and share, we are opening 1113 01:40:54,640 --> 01:41:00,880 it up to questions, answers, disputes, aments. You can raise your 1114 01:41:00,960 --> 01:41:08,880 questions, and you can use your super chats. Right there, do your 1115 01:41:08,880 --> 01:41:15,920 super chests. Did you want to I'm mute, Heine, Augustine, you 1116 01:41:15,039 --> 01:41:29,720 got the mic dog on mute? Okay, If you're not gonna mute, 1117 01:41:29,760 --> 01:41:38,960 then we'll move on knee. Well, then everybody's just dropping off as soon 1118 01:41:39,000 --> 01:41:42,039 as I'm about to go to him. Zen, did you want to speak? 1119 01:41:42,079 --> 01:41:47,800 You've been waiting a while. Zen. Hello, Jay, Yes, 1120 01:41:47,880 --> 01:41:57,439 sir, I got a question about natural theology. Sorry fans in the background, 1121 01:41:57,520 --> 01:42:01,199 It can't turn them off. Um. So, I was wondering if 1122 01:42:01,239 --> 01:42:06,920 we can argue whether God exists and if it's the Orthodox Christian God, specifically 1123 01:42:08,800 --> 01:42:13,159 by arguing for the existence of certain universal truths such as laws of logic, 1124 01:42:13,439 --> 01:42:17,439 free will, morals, or truth itself. Would that be natural theology or 1125 01:42:17,520 --> 01:42:23,239 something like along the lines of transcendent no right. So natural theology is defined 1126 01:42:23,319 --> 01:42:29,359 specifically as arguing for God's existence without divine revelation. So I would just simply 1127 01:42:29,439 --> 01:42:32,159 say that No, the categories that we're talking about here are like truth itself 1128 01:42:32,359 --> 01:42:38,640 or logic or universals. Although they themselves are not necessarily divine revelation, they're 1129 01:42:38,720 --> 01:42:45,079 grounded in divine revelation by the LOGI. So doing argumentation and logic is not 1130 01:42:45,279 --> 01:42:48,680 natural philosophy or natural theology. And that's something that like Trent didn't understand. 1131 01:42:50,439 --> 01:42:54,720 I see, all right, Well, thanks to your question, just I 1132 01:42:54,840 --> 01:42:57,640 came to orthodoxy. Thanks for you, so I want to say that right, 1133 01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:00,119 thank you very much, have a great day. Thank you. Glad 1134 01:43:00,119 --> 01:43:04,079 to hear that. Man, um Hin and Augustin, did you want to 1135 01:43:04,119 --> 01:43:19,840 try again? You got a hit on? Mute dog? I mean, 1136 01:43:20,000 --> 01:43:25,520 God is the trinity, so how are we gonna argue for God's existence? 1137 01:43:26,920 --> 01:43:30,039 That's not the trinity? I mean, this doesn't Are you there? Man? 1138 01:43:30,119 --> 01:43:34,399 What's up? Hey? Jake? Can you hear me? How what's 1139 01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:39,439 up? Man? Oh? No? Great? Sorry? Um yeah, 1140 01:43:39,680 --> 01:43:44,399 I'm still good at the time. I first want to read up a bit 1141 01:43:44,479 --> 01:43:47,640 so I can give you a run for your money. Um okay, I'm 1142 01:43:47,680 --> 01:43:51,359 working on a documentary on the workman friends, and I see you guys are 1143 01:43:51,439 --> 01:43:56,640 traced it back to to the Gnostics. Wait, what hold on, hold 1144 01:43:56,720 --> 01:44:02,119 down? Most of whatever read do si Illenistic world. I don't know what 1145 01:44:02,239 --> 01:44:05,680 you're saying. I was wondering, guys, you came across anything earlier, 1146 01:44:05,840 --> 01:44:10,479 like I don't know what you're talking about, Egyptian, bro slow down? 1147 01:44:11,359 --> 01:44:14,039 Is there is there a delay? I don't know what you're saying. You're 1148 01:44:14,039 --> 01:44:18,079 working on a documentary on gnostics. Yes, okay, I heard that part. 1149 01:44:18,239 --> 01:44:23,079 Then what slow down a little bit? Okay, go ahead, okay, 1150 01:44:23,399 --> 01:44:29,159 so yeah, so so and the most most sources trace it back to 1151 01:44:29,199 --> 01:44:33,119 the Ellenistic world. Um yeah, okay, yeah, So I was just 1152 01:44:33,199 --> 01:44:40,479 wondering because they say they are earlier influences like Egyptian, Persian and these guys. 1153 01:44:40,560 --> 01:44:44,399 I was just one problem if you, James Lindsay, any of you 1154 01:44:44,479 --> 01:44:48,239 guys came across anything that that that goes back further because I'm trying to get 1155 01:44:48,279 --> 01:44:51,760 trace it back to it to its ultimate source, which which might be the 1156 01:44:51,840 --> 01:44:57,199 Garden of Eden. But you know who knows? Um, yeah, I 1157 01:44:57,239 --> 01:44:59,960 don't know. I mean that's really I guess that would get really speculative, 1158 01:45:00,159 --> 01:45:03,520 and I'm not you know, I'm not a historian of religion. Are not 1159 01:45:03,680 --> 01:45:08,520 trained in comparative religion per se. So I mean I could just say, 1160 01:45:08,640 --> 01:45:13,520 look, you know, Plato talks about the mysteries of Platonism go back to 1161 01:45:13,680 --> 01:45:17,000 Egypt. That's his claim in the tomaos Um. I think in one of 1162 01:45:17,039 --> 01:45:20,960 the other dialogues it actually says that the mysteries of Platonism are the mysteries of 1163 01:45:21,079 --> 01:45:28,000 though. So. Uh, but whether that's true or not, I don't 1164 01:45:28,039 --> 01:45:31,159 know. And I understand there's a difference between gnosticism and Platonism, but they 1165 01:45:31,239 --> 01:45:34,840 clearly have some kind of you know, common roots. So I would guess 1166 01:45:34,960 --> 01:45:42,119 that Platonism probably has some root in Egypt, as does anosticism. So but 1167 01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:47,439 but as to what's older than that, I don't know. Okay, they 1168 01:45:47,920 --> 01:45:51,720 like the same different streams of the same river, I mean, their mysticism, 1169 01:45:51,840 --> 01:45:57,000 gnosticism. There's a lot of similarities between them, so I think there's 1170 01:45:57,159 --> 01:46:00,640 there's something something similar to them. But yeah, those are great questions. 1171 01:46:00,880 --> 01:46:06,359 Yeah, um, yeah, I think a lot of stuff in like the 1172 01:46:06,560 --> 01:46:10,760 you know, the ancient ancient world. You know, Lat's law of speculations, 1173 01:46:10,800 --> 01:46:15,199 So it's a lot of stuff we don't know. Um, we've got 1174 01:46:15,239 --> 01:46:20,359 a lot of people here lined up. I recognize some of these names, 1175 01:46:20,439 --> 01:46:24,640 and I'm a little I'm like, I don't know, it's just one of 1176 01:46:24,720 --> 01:46:30,600 our I feel like I've heard this name before. Order of things. Didn't 1177 01:46:30,640 --> 01:46:39,479 we talk? Yeah, we've talked him of what would you are? Get? 1178 01:46:39,520 --> 01:46:57,880 Remember? Go ahead? Are you there? All right? Nico? 1179 01:46:58,399 --> 01:47:11,000 What's up? Nico? You go house? What's up? I'm you a 1180 01:47:11,119 --> 01:47:15,119 dude? Who? Yeah? What's up? Man? Gee? No way? 1181 01:47:15,479 --> 01:47:20,319 So a big fan. Um. So, I'm gonna challenge you on 1182 01:47:20,479 --> 01:47:27,119 that you are a pagan? Okay? Sure? So I looked up the 1183 01:47:27,159 --> 01:47:31,680 etymology of the word and it says a person of non Christian or non Jewish 1184 01:47:31,760 --> 01:47:38,640 faith, and in Latin it's a villager citizen, non combatant, so of 1185 01:47:38,880 --> 01:47:43,319 the country or of the village. So I would ask you, are you 1186 01:47:43,439 --> 01:47:49,159 an American citizen? Yeah, so you are of a country? Sure, 1187 01:47:50,520 --> 01:47:59,479 so you are a pagan. It sounds like a fallacy. So it's just 1188 01:48:00,000 --> 01:48:04,159 the origin of the work. All right, Good job dude. Wait, 1189 01:48:04,279 --> 01:48:08,880 you weighed that long? You weighed that long to say something that done? 1190 01:48:09,000 --> 01:48:18,079 Good job, doc? And what's up dude? Hey jay? Um? 1191 01:48:18,239 --> 01:48:23,880 Yes, sir, So I actually want to push back on something that I 1192 01:48:24,039 --> 01:48:26,760 do. I know you're a young Earth Chreasianist, and this is going to 1193 01:48:26,800 --> 01:48:30,920 be kind of my argument against you, Okay, Um, so I'm an 1194 01:48:30,960 --> 01:48:34,199 oldest Christianist, um, and I would like to know what you think of 1195 01:48:34,399 --> 01:48:40,680 the idea of the Earth being old on the basis of um the speed of 1196 01:48:40,760 --> 01:48:45,760 light basically because I heard that argument that the Earth is essentially like four point 1197 01:48:45,840 --> 01:48:50,720 five billion years old, and they calculated on the basis of essentially the speed 1198 01:48:50,760 --> 01:48:55,880 of light, like how far light travels to a certain to a certain distance. 1199 01:48:56,720 --> 01:48:59,640 So yeah, but that's just a that's just a that's just a saeming. 1200 01:49:00,159 --> 01:49:02,520 It could be like six thousand years old based on that. Yeah, 1201 01:49:03,479 --> 01:49:09,840 yeah, I just don't. I think that's a highly speculative um basis for 1202 01:49:10,000 --> 01:49:15,399 an argument. So it's the assumption is that, oh, you know, 1203 01:49:15,319 --> 01:49:19,439 it took the light you know, how are many million years to get here. 1204 01:49:19,520 --> 01:49:25,439 So therefore from the Big bang, right, like everything expanding out, 1205 01:49:25,560 --> 01:49:30,239 it would have taken I mean, God could place the you know, stellar 1206 01:49:30,359 --> 01:49:33,680 luminaries there and the light already be here, right. And furthermore, I 1207 01:49:33,760 --> 01:49:42,159 mean we don't actually know that they're the other planets and galaxies are you know, 1208 01:49:42,479 --> 01:49:45,600 zillions of light years away. That's all just assumed. There's not any 1209 01:49:45,680 --> 01:49:48,520 real way to prove. But women, we do actually know this um because 1210 01:49:48,560 --> 01:49:55,640 it's actually been scientifically observed. Um that it's actually it's actually been scientifically observed 1211 01:49:55,680 --> 01:50:00,279 that light does travel. It's only but that's based on period to actually get 1212 01:50:00,319 --> 01:50:03,159 to from one point to the other. But that's based on the assumption that 1213 01:50:03,520 --> 01:50:10,680 the measurements are that everything operated in the same way that it always has. 1214 01:50:10,880 --> 01:50:15,000 Right, So, like the uniformity of nature has to be assumed such that 1215 01:50:15,680 --> 01:50:18,439 the light always traveled at that same speed or that and none of that's provable, 1216 01:50:18,560 --> 01:50:23,520 right, So it's it's based on assumptions that are not actually demonstrable. 1217 01:50:23,680 --> 01:50:26,560 How do you prove that it always operated that way? How do you how 1218 01:50:26,560 --> 01:50:30,439 do you know that's not accurate? Because I can do there's actual Man, 1219 01:50:30,560 --> 01:50:33,359 there's actually scientific measurement instead of improven that yes, light travels. No, 1220 01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:36,319 No, that's not what I say. That's not what I say. Like, 1221 01:50:36,680 --> 01:50:42,520 that's not what I say. That's not what I said. I said, 1222 01:50:42,640 --> 01:50:45,640 how do you know that it operated in a uniform Even if that is 1223 01:50:45,720 --> 01:50:50,079 the case, how do you know that it operated in a uniform way all 1224 01:50:50,119 --> 01:50:55,720 the way back into the AONs of the Big Bang or whatever, because I 1225 01:50:55,760 --> 01:50:59,800 mean, the Big Bang has been scientifically proven, like based on cosmics, 1226 01:50:59,800 --> 01:51:03,560 bammariation waves so like, um, so like for me, someone, who 1227 01:51:03,800 --> 01:51:05,920 did you not hear what I just asked you? You didn't hear what? 1228 01:51:06,039 --> 01:51:09,079 You didn't hear what I just asked you? I said, how do you 1229 01:51:09,239 --> 01:51:14,800 know? And the uniformity of nature that it was? It was uniform billions 1230 01:51:14,800 --> 01:51:17,359 of years ago. Um, what do you mean how do I know? 1231 01:51:17,439 --> 01:51:21,079 Based aim of nature? I mean it's a mathematic equation. Yeah, So 1232 01:51:21,239 --> 01:51:25,520 again, not going to answer the question. It's a very specific question about 1233 01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:30,359 the principle of uniformity, that nature operated in a uniform way all the way 1234 01:51:30,399 --> 01:51:33,600 back into aon's past. So if you're not going to answer that question, 1235 01:51:33,760 --> 01:51:35,960 and you're just going to keep blowing past it, you just keep saying, 1236 01:51:36,000 --> 01:51:41,479 no, it's scientifically proven, it's scientifically I asked a specific question about the 1237 01:51:41,640 --> 01:51:45,119 principle of uniformity operating in the distant past. How do you know that? 1238 01:51:46,039 --> 01:51:50,960 Maybe it's true? But what you replied with does not answer the question that 1239 01:51:51,000 --> 01:52:04,760 I asked you. X muslims um hike, thanks for letting me speak. 1240 01:52:05,520 --> 01:52:11,680 Um. Although I'm an atheist. I do agree with Jay on this on 1241 01:52:11,840 --> 01:52:19,359 what on that science assumes uniformitarianism. Okay, so how do we prove that? 1242 01:52:20,399 --> 01:52:27,119 I think, like, from a philosophical point of view, simplicity is 1243 01:52:27,199 --> 01:52:31,319 always better, and that doesn't that's doesn't prove anything. That's not a proof. 1244 01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:36,399 That's a principle that may or may not be useful to what we're talking 1245 01:52:36,439 --> 01:52:41,760 about. Doesn't prove anything. Um, it depends on what you mean by 1246 01:52:41,920 --> 01:52:48,520 proof. Yeah, anything can be demonstrated, but it's rational in the sense 1247 01:52:48,640 --> 01:52:55,039 that it's probable. And none of these answers are at all getting at the 1248 01:52:55,159 --> 01:52:58,640 question that I asked. So we have t free the guy who said that 1249 01:52:58,680 --> 01:53:00,600 he's got a much HIGERARQ than me. What's up, dude? Put me 1250 01:53:00,640 --> 01:53:09,600 in my place. I'm mute, I'm mute. You got up? You 1251 01:53:09,640 --> 01:53:17,760 got a two hundred IQ. You're not. I'm mute, right, Bro? 1252 01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:21,720 You said that you were forty points higher than me an IQ, and 1253 01:53:21,800 --> 01:53:30,199 you can't un mute. I sent you the link. Dude. What's up? 1254 01:53:30,039 --> 01:53:32,960 Hello? Can you hear me? JA? Yeah, you gotta forty 1255 01:53:33,000 --> 01:53:38,079 points higher IQ. Go ahead, JA, don't don't repeat my name. 1256 01:53:38,800 --> 01:53:43,800 Don't do this disrespectful. I'm kind of retarded, dude. Don't don't lie 1257 01:53:43,840 --> 01:53:45,399 to me. You told me, you said I'm a dick, And then 1258 01:53:45,439 --> 01:53:48,239 you're like, well, no, troll to be ghost respectful? How am 1259 01:53:48,279 --> 01:53:51,600 I dead? You're you're trying to stole my hair, by the way too, 1260 01:53:53,840 --> 01:53:57,319 How am I dick? What do you mean? Wha I mean? 1261 01:53:58,039 --> 01:54:01,279 To be honest, you, there's the last few men that you've been speaking 1262 01:54:01,319 --> 01:54:05,039 with their kindt you know, so you have to dumb it down a little 1263 01:54:05,039 --> 01:54:13,199 bit, and your intelligence is hard to intercept for the lower of the you 1264 01:54:13,319 --> 01:54:15,600 know, the prime. Look, well you're a mensa man. Yeah, 1265 01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:18,359 you're a mensa man, so you can intel, you can enlighten us. 1266 01:54:18,399 --> 01:54:23,079 So go ahead, and yeah, sir, I'm just saying that the things 1267 01:54:23,119 --> 01:54:30,479 that you say sometimes are really mean to not only yourself but others around you. 1268 01:54:30,760 --> 01:54:36,319 You really mean, are very smart, and you do the same thing 1269 01:54:36,399 --> 01:54:41,520 that I do, sir, And what's up? My problem is is that 1270 01:54:41,800 --> 01:54:47,000 I hate on people constantly for not being able to keep up. If you 1271 01:54:47,079 --> 01:54:51,600 would like to pause and put a pin on that subject of me thinking you're 1272 01:54:51,960 --> 01:54:55,079 I'm not hating on people, So I don't know what you dumb up. 1273 01:54:55,720 --> 01:54:58,720 No, you do. You constantly hit on people that are stupid, and 1274 01:54:59,159 --> 01:55:00,479 how am I hating people? I don't know what you're talking at all. 1275 01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:06,319 Yeah, no, you're a little bit mean to the crazy leftists, which 1276 01:55:06,520 --> 01:55:11,840 they need to be saved by Jesus. Okay, you know, yes, 1277 01:55:12,039 --> 01:55:14,680 yes, sir, I'm not trying to like hate on you at all by 1278 01:55:14,720 --> 01:55:16,560 any means. I'm just trying to do as our father wishes us to do. 1279 01:55:17,359 --> 01:55:20,600 And I'm saying that's really pious. Okay, So where do you disagree? 1280 01:55:20,680 --> 01:55:25,680 What argument would you like to present a new new new knew. That's 1281 01:55:25,720 --> 01:55:28,560 what I would like you to present to me. I don't, like I 1282 01:55:28,680 --> 01:55:32,039 said, and all of my chats as I don't find many things will dig 1283 01:55:32,319 --> 01:55:38,239 upon um. But I would love to debate you on any topic from Jesus, 1284 01:55:38,479 --> 01:55:42,840 God, Aliens, anything, whatever you want. And it's more, 1285 01:55:43,079 --> 01:55:45,720 well, I don't engage, hold on, so hold on, So I 1286 01:55:45,760 --> 01:55:48,680 don't. I don't engage in debates just to debate. So I only debate 1287 01:55:48,720 --> 01:55:53,399 the positions that I actually hold. So I want to know like a lot 1288 01:55:53,439 --> 01:55:58,600 of holds of these positions. Okay, I got it. Jesus, Aliens, 1289 01:55:58,680 --> 01:56:01,560 God, you could start on aliens. Okay, so you're really smart, 1290 01:56:01,720 --> 01:56:06,439 So tell me where you think I'm wrong. Oh no, that's first 1291 01:56:06,479 --> 01:56:10,399 and foremost. If you look back to the message, I said that there's 1292 01:56:10,399 --> 01:56:14,159 a lot of things that I don't think disagree upon. I just think you're 1293 01:56:14,279 --> 01:56:19,479 okay, So tell me where you do disagree. Yes, sir, I'm 1294 01:56:19,479 --> 01:56:25,880 sorry you cut out, So tell me where you do disagree. The only 1295 01:56:25,920 --> 01:56:29,600 times you're you're mean to stupid people. I think that Jesus said. No. 1296 01:56:29,800 --> 01:56:32,520 No, literally, bro, You're on point with ninety nine point nine 1297 01:56:32,960 --> 01:56:38,880 percent of everything that God and the Orthodox shirts wants from us, except that 1298 01:56:39,239 --> 01:56:42,960 the love and kindness it just seeps from me. So how is it loving 1299 01:56:43,039 --> 01:56:45,319 and how is it loving kindness? To tell me that I'm a dick and 1300 01:56:45,560 --> 01:56:48,880 you're so much smarter than me. That sounds like you're just trolling. So 1301 01:56:49,039 --> 01:56:54,439 this is not a serious person. I mean, I I don't care about 1302 01:56:54,479 --> 01:57:00,960 your mensa car, dude, good grief, man, unbelievable, what dude? 1303 01:57:04,720 --> 01:57:10,680 Go ahead, docing, go ahead? Yeah, what about it? 1304 01:57:10,760 --> 01:57:13,960 Oh um? Okay, So I feel like you kind of brush my argument 1305 01:57:14,000 --> 01:57:15,920 off when it came to the age of the area. I asked you a 1306 01:57:15,000 --> 01:57:18,960 specific question about what the argument presupposed, and you blew past it, wouldn't 1307 01:57:18,960 --> 01:57:23,119 answer it. That's why I booted you. Well, can I can I 1308 01:57:23,199 --> 01:57:27,039 speak and presents an argument? Every Hold on a second, hey Jay, 1309 01:57:27,239 --> 01:57:30,880 I apologize for and can you guy actually just on his buddy. I actually 1310 01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:31,920 just wanted to say, I really do it and now your work and that 1311 01:57:32,039 --> 01:57:35,000 kind and I will love your debatement big fans. Sorry, I gotta be 1312 01:57:35,000 --> 01:57:39,399 a little biased, but um, you know, keep killing it. And 1313 01:57:39,600 --> 01:57:43,079 by the way, I'm getting into your introductions on Genesis soon. So once 1314 01:57:43,119 --> 01:57:45,920 I uh, once I finished that in Exodus, I'm gonna start watching say 1315 01:57:45,960 --> 01:57:50,159 your videos explaining it. Yes, it's awesome. Okay. Um, So 1316 01:57:50,439 --> 01:57:56,680 I asked you about the principle of uniformity uniformitarianism, that that underlies your argument, 1317 01:57:57,800 --> 01:58:00,720 and it doesn't matter which one you pick, the light argument, the 1318 01:58:00,319 --> 01:58:03,800 radioactive decay argument. That's another argument I was gonna bring up, was the 1319 01:58:03,880 --> 01:58:11,520 radioactive to k argument. Yeah, So for that to work, because for 1320 01:58:11,840 --> 01:58:15,279 that too, what listen, dude, for that to work, you're gonna 1321 01:58:15,279 --> 01:58:18,680 have to demonstrate the principle of uniformitarianism. So just how about it. Go 1322 01:58:18,840 --> 01:58:23,880 for it? Okay, I mean, okay, so the scientific formula is 1323 01:58:23,960 --> 01:58:28,439 that the decay You're not gonna So again, you're not gonna address the question 1324 01:58:28,479 --> 01:58:31,920 I asked you. I am I'm trying. No, you're not. You 1325 01:58:32,039 --> 01:58:38,720 even understand the question? Good god, Bro, don't you don't just listen? 1326 01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:42,920 Man, don't follow and like your claims that the earth is six thousand 1327 01:58:43,000 --> 01:58:45,000 years old on the basis of this, are you how many bears? Diould 1328 01:58:45,000 --> 01:58:47,399 you have? Dude? Are you? Can you not listen to what I'm 1329 01:58:47,399 --> 01:58:53,199 asking you? That your argument presupposed uniformitarianism, So it's not gonna work until 1330 01:58:53,199 --> 01:58:56,520 you address that. So just telling me the argument is not addressing the question. 1331 01:58:57,840 --> 01:59:00,840 Can you can you? Can you prove that? Did you not hear 1332 01:59:00,880 --> 01:59:05,279 what I asked you? That's a two quote quay? What's a two quote 1333 01:59:05,319 --> 01:59:11,720 quay? What's a two quot quay? Two quo qu quick fallacy? That's 1334 01:59:11,760 --> 01:59:15,159 a fallacy of every statement of it. No, it's not it's against it's 1335 01:59:15,159 --> 01:59:18,039 a what about? Is um? It's what about you not answering this question? 1336 01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:25,479 So you're I'm sorry, Yeah, you know what, Bro, that's 1337 01:59:25,520 --> 01:59:28,159 fine. We're done. You don't and don't you can unfollow me. It's 1338 01:59:28,199 --> 01:59:35,119 fine, go on, move on, Jim. Whatever. So I put 1339 01:59:35,199 --> 01:59:42,159 up with this idiocy from people, right and then oh, you mean dude, 1340 01:59:42,319 --> 01:59:45,560 And I'm a fortyr IQ points above you mensa guy? Do you mean 1341 01:59:45,680 --> 01:59:50,439 bro? I mean, dude? Is everybody just drunk on Friday night? 1342 01:59:53,199 --> 01:59:56,760 Is that what it is? What's up, Jim? You know of a 1343 01:59:57,640 --> 02:00:02,960 interesting side point to the conversation be the population of the human race. By 1344 02:00:03,039 --> 02:00:11,600 all scientific measures, only two percent of the population human population existed before the 1345 02:00:11,680 --> 02:00:17,800 advent of Christ's pres effection and resurrection. Why do you think that plays into 1346 02:00:17,840 --> 02:00:21,640 this kind of you know, even if the you know it's trying to speaking 1347 02:00:21,640 --> 02:00:24,680 about the age of the earth. I hear you guys going on about this 1348 02:00:24,840 --> 02:00:30,479 like you, I don't understand the question was so perspective on that, you 1349 02:00:30,600 --> 02:00:32,720 know, by all you know scientific I'm sorry to get Look, I'm not 1350 02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:34,760 trying to be rude to you. I'm not, but I don't understand the 1351 02:00:34,800 --> 02:00:38,000 point of that question. And I'm just I'm just gonna have to Like, 1352 02:00:38,039 --> 02:00:41,760 I'm starting to get annoyed. People are starting to get on my nerves, 1353 02:00:41,880 --> 02:00:45,119 and when it gets on my nerves, I'll start to get sassy. You 1354 02:00:45,239 --> 02:00:47,640 see, and then that's when people say, oh he's me, we got 1355 02:00:47,880 --> 02:00:54,279 him, exposes me. I don't want to hear your dumb arguments. If 1356 02:00:54,279 --> 02:00:58,920 you got a good argument, and dude, get out of here all you 1357 02:00:59,199 --> 02:01:06,239 like weirdos with your IQ bullshit order of things. I guess now we know 1358 02:01:06,439 --> 02:01:11,560 to get like the really ridiculous stuff we do it on Friday night. Yes, 1359 02:01:11,640 --> 02:01:15,680 sir, um, I want to say, what, um, the 1360 02:01:15,800 --> 02:01:24,199 elytics and in practice, what really happens is that the parties are you drunk? 1361 02:01:24,680 --> 02:01:30,960 Is everyone drunk to night? No? Okay, go ahead. The 1362 02:01:31,079 --> 02:01:34,720 party has become radicalized in their positions. What is this? This is not 1363 02:01:34,920 --> 02:01:40,960 We're not about politics, bro, it's theology debate, right, this is 1364 02:01:41,119 --> 02:01:46,399 this is regarding the ealytics and how they work in practice, Okay, And 1365 02:01:46,720 --> 02:01:57,479 what happens is the party has become radicalized and the progress and so the common 1366 02:01:57,960 --> 02:02:02,119 assumption is that it's it's a it's a way to find common ground, but 1367 02:02:02,319 --> 02:02:08,479 actually what happens is that it's the ideas to become outside the margin, the 1368 02:02:08,600 --> 02:02:14,199 redicalized idea become How does this relate to atheism? Also, um, it's 1369 02:02:14,199 --> 02:02:19,600 not politics and debates. People redicalize, They put their positions and they are 1370 02:02:20,000 --> 02:02:27,840 sometimes outside yeah, okay, sometimes yeah. So the Gospel in your hand 1371 02:02:28,159 --> 02:02:32,159 or evangelian Is has a different posture. It's it's it's a declarative it's um 1372 02:02:33,119 --> 02:02:40,039 has a declarative posture, not political posture. Jesus engages in polemics. So 1373 02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:45,760 not true, not right. I mean I'm not let'stical here, but in 1374 02:02:45,880 --> 02:02:48,600 primary I would say it would be it would have it's a posture, would 1375 02:02:48,600 --> 02:02:53,600 be would declarative. Then the posture of the Gospels is in the context of 1376 02:02:53,720 --> 02:03:01,920 liturgy. Well, the evangelian is proclamation right, the crisis king Okay, 1377 02:03:02,239 --> 02:03:06,239 sorry, not relevant to what we're talking about, but thank you, um 1378 02:03:09,840 --> 02:03:24,720 Aga square, I'm you, hey, j how's he going? What's up 1379 02:03:24,760 --> 02:03:27,439 man? How are you doing? Wealth? And well yeah, just quick 1380 02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:30,079 questions. So just want to get your maybe your opinion or maybe the general 1381 02:03:30,680 --> 02:03:35,840 uh consensus or well opinion of the Eastern Orthodox Church, because I've heard some 1382 02:03:36,000 --> 02:03:41,079 different things about this topic. So how do you guys feel and maybe given 1383 02:03:41,159 --> 02:03:45,000 your your perspective and I've, like I said, I've heard some different you 1384 02:03:45,039 --> 02:03:48,439 know, perspectives that you think within the Eastern Orthodox of UM like non Eastern 1385 02:03:48,560 --> 02:03:54,119 Orthodox apparitions. So, um, like ore, you know the Coptic apparition 1386 02:03:54,199 --> 02:03:58,039 of our lady as itumb like the sixties. Um, obviously you know the 1387 02:03:58,079 --> 02:04:01,119 big Catholic ones, our Lady of Guadalupe, our Lady of Fatima. I've 1388 02:04:01,199 --> 02:04:06,560 heard a lot of Eastern Orthodox specifically being a little sympathetic toward like the Coptic 1389 02:04:06,600 --> 02:04:12,880 apparitions, which I find kind of strange and confusing. Um. But um, 1390 02:04:13,000 --> 02:04:15,319 yeah, I would love to mabeate your positions. Yeah, I think 1391 02:04:15,359 --> 02:04:20,079 that it's very simple. The Pauline structure is that we don't go by the 1392 02:04:20,159 --> 02:04:25,840 apparitions. We go by what is divine revelation, and paul is just restating 1393 02:04:25,960 --> 02:04:30,000 what's in Deuteronomy thirteen, in Deuteronomy eighteen. So, um, could Mary 1394 02:04:30,079 --> 02:04:34,199 appear to whoever? Sure, But that has nothing to do with what we're 1395 02:04:34,239 --> 02:04:39,680 going to do for our practice and our what we do in terms of normativity, 1396 02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:42,359 right, So it has nothing to do with what we do. If 1397 02:04:42,359 --> 02:04:45,600 you want the specifics, I've done multiple live streams getting into the Cold War 1398 02:04:45,760 --> 02:04:49,760 structure and situation of a lot of those Marian apparitions and how that's used in 1399 02:04:49,800 --> 02:04:56,960 the Cold War for psychological operations on record so that's part of this um. 1400 02:04:57,239 --> 02:05:00,039 But yeah, I've I've done really long live streams on that. No, 1401 02:05:00,119 --> 02:05:02,720 I don't accept fatima or magic gooray or any of that stuff. And I 1402 02:05:02,760 --> 02:05:09,720 would not accept. And again, it doesn't matter if Mary appeared here or 1403 02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:13,399 there, whatever, It has nothing to do with again, the previous revelation. 1404 02:05:15,239 --> 02:05:25,279 I don't think I must Hello, yeah, hell yeah, Hello, 1405 02:05:30,560 --> 02:05:34,520 Matt. It's about to get's getting vised to you up in here. What's 1406 02:05:34,600 --> 02:05:39,000 up, Matt? Hey? How you doing? Man? I'm biting my 1407 02:05:39,079 --> 02:05:42,239 lip. I'm gonna try to be nice. I'm gonna try. I'm gonna 1408 02:05:42,239 --> 02:05:44,640 try. I'm here on what you're going through. And uh, and I 1409 02:05:44,720 --> 02:05:47,800 appreciate it. Man, thanks for let me speak. Go ahead, I 1410 02:05:47,920 --> 02:05:54,720 have a question about so do photorology. Okay, as far as the Orthodoxy 1411 02:05:54,840 --> 02:05:59,439 paper is concerned. In you, I'm curious about your position. It was 1412 02:05:59,479 --> 02:06:03,920 funny I was invited onto this the faces by some Orthodox people. I'm not 1413 02:06:04,079 --> 02:06:10,640 orthodoxed myself. And one of the big second points I have is where grace 1414 02:06:10,960 --> 02:06:15,119 is actually extended to people. I believe. I actually I hadn't known you, 1415 02:06:15,199 --> 02:06:17,000 aheadn't followed you before this. I think I saw a video of you 1416 02:06:18,000 --> 02:06:27,479 talking about grace extended potentially past the Orthodox Ecclesiastic and I just wanted to know 1417 02:06:27,560 --> 02:06:32,399 your position on it. The Orthodox Ecclesiastic. Okay, yeah, so the 1418 02:06:32,560 --> 02:06:36,239 Orthodox the Orthodox Church. Yeah, so there's grace outside the church, but 1419 02:06:36,319 --> 02:06:40,439 that doesn't mean that there's salvation outside the church. So you have to be 1420 02:06:40,600 --> 02:06:44,920 united to the Church in some way to be saved. And if God does 1421 02:06:45,000 --> 02:06:46,800 that in his own way, that's certainly possible. We see that with the 1422 02:06:46,880 --> 02:06:50,800 thief on the cross. But the normative means by which a person has saved 1423 02:06:50,840 --> 02:06:57,359 as the Orthodox Church. Right, So I guess I guess my question is 1424 02:06:57,359 --> 02:07:00,960 worth the wine. Well, I mean we're not told that, So I 1425 02:07:01,079 --> 02:07:04,600 mean, how could I say? What do you mean? Where's the line? 1426 02:07:04,720 --> 02:07:09,119 Like? Well, I mean, I guess what I mean is this 1427 02:07:09,359 --> 02:07:11,840 is that, like, the grace of God is something that we can't obviously 1428 02:07:11,960 --> 02:07:16,000 fully comprehend it on this side of eternity. Right, And so with us 1429 02:07:16,520 --> 02:07:21,960 like a murdering China who's never had the grace of the Orthodox Church to be 1430 02:07:23,000 --> 02:07:26,399 able to be PSI upon them and take sacraments of any kind, they could 1431 02:07:26,439 --> 02:07:30,119 have authentic salvation. Correct. Well, again, that's what I just said 1432 02:07:30,279 --> 02:07:34,359 that it's possible for God to unite somebody to the mystical body in his own 1433 02:07:34,439 --> 02:07:40,960 way, and that's why the church does have We consider you know, baptism 1434 02:07:41,039 --> 02:07:44,079 of blood, baptism desire, those people are considered members of the church. 1435 02:07:44,800 --> 02:07:47,720 But when it comes to people that are in those other countries that we don't 1436 02:07:47,720 --> 02:07:49,560 have, I mean, we don't know that, right. So we know 1437 02:07:49,720 --> 02:07:53,680 God is a just judge and he's fair, and we leave that up to 1438 02:07:53,840 --> 02:07:57,079 him. So all we know is what we're told to do, which is 1439 02:07:57,159 --> 02:08:01,039 it's our job to tell people to become orthods. Okay, so forgive me 1440 02:08:01,159 --> 02:08:05,640 because you're you're It's funny when when you have have somebody jump on a speaker, 1441 02:08:05,680 --> 02:08:09,800 it's funny you start to break up on grand It's it's kind of a 1442 02:08:09,880 --> 02:08:13,119 weird thing. So I think I heard what you were saying. And if 1443 02:08:13,199 --> 02:08:22,079 I can clarify, just a clarifying question. So why, like like cross 1444 02:08:22,119 --> 02:08:26,520 the nonominational, are there a remnant within cross the nomination, I don't know 1445 02:08:26,600 --> 02:08:31,119 what that means. A remnant within cross and within crossing? Is vation? 1446 02:08:31,199 --> 02:08:35,880 Within the policism? Is there a process? Is there? No? Because 1447 02:08:35,920 --> 02:08:39,079 there's one true church and it's the orbit our church. Right, So how 1448 02:08:39,079 --> 02:08:41,720 does that account for the people that have never had the grace of the church. 1449 02:08:43,079 --> 02:08:50,479 What I said that the God is able through through his power to unite 1450 02:08:50,520 --> 02:08:52,640 people to the mystical body in his own way, right, So it's not 1451 02:08:54,079 --> 02:08:58,840 a matter of spatial location. It's a matter of whether or not the grace 1452 02:08:58,920 --> 02:09:01,239 of God unites you to the mystical body. The mystical body is the Orthodox 1453 02:09:01,359 --> 02:09:07,760 Church. So is he is your stance that salvation through to become through the 1454 02:09:07,880 --> 02:09:13,399 Orthodox So correct? Yes, I guess I'm trying to understand. Yes, 1455 02:09:13,439 --> 02:09:18,159 I said, yes, how you can, like I guess, overlay that 1456 02:09:18,720 --> 02:09:22,960 with what like the mystery of God's rist So I don't think that the mystery 1457 02:09:24,000 --> 02:09:28,520 of God's grace contradicts what he has revealed. So He's revealed that there's one 1458 02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:31,159 true church, and that's the church that put the scriptures together for example. 1459 02:09:35,119 --> 02:09:41,039 Okay, and again clarifying questions more so than anything else, I'm I'm confused 1460 02:09:41,159 --> 02:09:43,319 about that aspect of things. Well, let's make this simple. Let me 1461 02:09:43,479 --> 02:09:46,319 let me clarify it for you. Let me clarify it for you. So 1462 02:09:48,239 --> 02:09:52,479 in the sixth seventh eighth century, the Orthodox Church put the Bible together, 1463 02:09:52,640 --> 02:09:56,199 and it's the Bible that you have, So why aren't you in the Orthodox 1464 02:09:56,399 --> 02:10:03,439 Church if you're using its Bible. Well, I don't understand why that would 1465 02:10:03,560 --> 02:10:07,760 necessarily matter, because if you're going or unissions and giving the Bible whatever, 1466 02:10:07,840 --> 02:10:13,760 the Bible is um with you, because it's assuming that there's so much background 1467 02:10:13,840 --> 02:10:18,880 noise, I can't Hey, can you call sorry? Can you call in? 1468 02:10:20,000 --> 02:10:22,560 When there's not so much background noise, it's really hard to hear you. 1469 02:10:22,479 --> 02:10:26,159 I'm sorry, Sorry, I'll move out. Let's try. Let's try 1470 02:10:26,279 --> 02:10:30,079 try coming back or something. It's like, I can't get through all this 1471 02:10:30,199 --> 02:10:35,760 background noise. Dude, I don't want to. I don't want to talk 1472 02:10:35,800 --> 02:10:37,239 to you. Get out of here, Like, why would you think I 1473 02:10:37,279 --> 02:10:54,560 want to interact with you? People acting ridiculous? Artie Lucas, Oh hi 1474 02:10:54,720 --> 02:11:09,319 Jay, do you hear me? Oh yeah? Can you hear I can 1475 02:11:09,399 --> 02:11:13,239 hear you? Can you hear me? Okay? Sorry? Just yes. 1476 02:11:13,720 --> 02:11:18,760 So basically, I'm Presbyterian, I'm twenty two years old, and I was 1477 02:11:18,960 --> 02:11:24,279 getting into ORTHODOXI lately, and I'm curious on the point of iconography. Okay, 1478 02:11:24,399 --> 02:11:31,039 what's the point of iconography? And this does this ghost against a god 1479 02:11:31,319 --> 02:11:35,439 Jesus saying that did not create an image of me. It's worship. Okay, 1480 02:11:35,680 --> 02:11:37,439 Jesus, When did Jesus say, don't create an image of me? 1481 02:11:37,960 --> 02:11:41,680 First of all, Jesus is the icon of the Father, according to Paul 1482 02:11:43,720 --> 02:11:48,319 in his epistles, and so iconography is based in and rooted in human nature 1483 02:11:48,359 --> 02:11:52,399 itself. Right, We're told in the Garden of Eden that man was made 1484 02:11:52,479 --> 02:11:56,680 in the icon the image of God. So iconography is really fundamental to how 1485 02:11:56,800 --> 02:12:01,840 God communicates and reveals himself to the created order, all divine revelation. And 1486 02:12:01,920 --> 02:12:07,159 if you think about words and the scriptures their iconographic right, they're images. 1487 02:12:07,760 --> 02:12:11,680 And so if there's something fundamentally problematic with images themselves, then the temple would 1488 02:12:11,720 --> 02:12:15,800 not be full of images. The arc would not have seraphim on it, 1489 02:12:15,840 --> 02:12:18,000 there would not be angels in the temple everywhere. So no, God is 1490 02:12:18,039 --> 02:12:24,840 not anti image. In fact, he's very iconographic. And so the earliest 1491 02:12:24,920 --> 02:12:31,560 days of the church's worship include all these principles of created things as mediums of 1492 02:12:31,680 --> 02:12:39,680 grace, and so iconographic worship and iconographic symbology and reality is fundamental to how 1493 02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:43,199 God relates to the world. And so the icons, for example, are 1494 02:12:43,720 --> 02:12:48,479 mediums of grace via the divine energies. So they're windows to heaven, we 1495 02:12:48,640 --> 02:12:52,800 say. And so the Bible being full of imagery, the Bible being full 1496 02:12:52,840 --> 02:12:56,960 of John seeing into heaven, seeing a vision, the form of God appearing 1497 02:12:58,079 --> 02:13:01,359 to Isaiah, the form of God, the voice of God speaking to Elijah, 1498 02:13:01,359 --> 02:13:07,680 and Elship. Right, there's a theophanic manifestation. Right, there's a 1499 02:13:07,760 --> 02:13:11,119 form in that form. And the Old Testament is Jesus is the logos. 1500 02:13:11,720 --> 02:13:15,760 And then Jesus takes on a human nature. So he takes on created things, 1501 02:13:16,279 --> 02:13:20,319 creation and deifies it by doing so. And so when we go to 1502 02:13:20,720 --> 02:13:26,600 the earliest church fathers, they talk about the Eucharist as the real presence of 1503 02:13:26,680 --> 02:13:31,399 Christ because his uncreated divine energy is present there, the medicine of immortality. 1504 02:13:31,880 --> 02:13:37,079 Saint Cyril Alexander calls it the uncreated energies that deify the flesh, to make 1505 02:13:37,119 --> 02:13:43,800 it the deified flesh. So everything about the worship of the Church is iconographic 1506 02:13:45,239 --> 02:13:50,079 to its all the way down to like everything in the created order being a 1507 02:13:50,520 --> 02:13:56,680 manifestation of the Logos. So Maximus says that Christ wears all of the created 1508 02:13:56,760 --> 02:14:11,000 order like a vestiment. I guess he dropped off. So I don't know 1509 02:14:11,159 --> 02:14:15,159 people coming back that we didn't have a good exchange. So I don't know 1510 02:14:15,199 --> 02:14:20,239 why you keep coming back in here with these bad exchanges, mister Anderson. 1511 02:14:20,479 --> 02:14:28,600 Mister Anderson, mister Anderson, mister what's up? Uh? Not much. 1512 02:14:28,039 --> 02:14:33,640 I had a couple of questions, that's okay, um, okay, Yeah, 1513 02:14:33,920 --> 02:14:37,760 so some things I've been thinking about. Yeah, I've been listening in 1514 02:14:39,439 --> 02:14:46,039 to your past few streams, and um, the topic about ye in the 1515 02:14:46,159 --> 02:14:52,840 Catholic system of them having unity and clarity, um, and uh, but 1516 02:14:52,039 --> 02:14:56,399 really, when it comes down to it, uh, it's not much different 1517 02:14:56,399 --> 02:15:01,079 than the Protestant system when it comes to basically personal interpretation of documents. And 1518 02:15:01,159 --> 02:15:07,640 I was just wanting to get sort of like your statement and perspective on how 1519 02:15:07,680 --> 02:15:13,680 that contrasts to the Eastern Orthodox system and how that's different, you know, 1520 02:15:13,760 --> 02:15:18,560 and how we know what the true doctrines are and whatnot. And then I 1521 02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:20,159 also have a couple of other questions too. Yeah. So you know, 1522 02:15:20,159 --> 02:15:22,840 I mean, I've answered that. I'm not trying to be rude. I'm 1523 02:15:22,840 --> 02:15:28,439 just I've answered that many many times in many many podcasts So there's two different 1524 02:15:28,520 --> 02:15:33,079 questions there. One is about individual certitude and assurance, and there's another question 1525 02:15:33,159 --> 02:15:37,239 of normative authority. So if it's a question of public authority, we would 1526 02:15:37,600 --> 02:15:41,960 disagree with the Protestants and agree with the Roman cality. There is a public 1527 02:15:43,039 --> 02:15:48,640 authority that exists that men have from Christ right. But when it comes to 1528 02:15:48,199 --> 02:15:52,439 what that authority is, we believe that authority is what we see in the 1529 02:15:52,520 --> 02:15:56,119 first thousand years of the Church, which is snodal, collegial church government. 1530 02:15:56,199 --> 02:16:01,560 It's not a monarchical system of everybody just asked Sking the Bishop of Rome what 1531 02:16:01,720 --> 02:16:03,800 the answer is. So, but that's different from the question of well, 1532 02:16:03,800 --> 02:16:07,680 how does an individual have certitude? Because every individual person, whether you're a 1533 02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:11,319 Protestant, Roman Catholic, Orthodox, is in the same boat. And there's 1534 02:16:11,359 --> 02:16:16,560 no way to answer that question other than to say that in the final analysis, 1535 02:16:16,640 --> 02:16:20,840 it's the Holy Spirit that gives a certitude. But again where we disagree 1536 02:16:20,880 --> 02:16:22,880 is the means that the Holy Spirit uses. So the means the Holy Spirit 1537 02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:26,840 uses in the Roman Catholic system is you and the papal documents. The means 1538 02:16:26,880 --> 02:16:31,120 the Holy Spirit used the Orthodox view is you and the entire life of the 1539 02:16:31,200 --> 02:16:35,600 Church, the liturgy, the lives of the saints, the church fathers, 1540 02:16:35,680 --> 02:16:39,040 the cheminical counsels, the Bible, all of that is a holistic thing, 1541 02:16:39,360 --> 02:16:46,360 right, So obviously the Orthodox u is the holistic view of the individual's experience 1542 02:16:46,399 --> 02:16:48,639 within the entire life of the Church, including all of those elements that you 1543 02:16:48,680 --> 02:16:54,360 can't you can't like like a science experiment like pick out like one thing that 1544 02:16:54,600 --> 02:16:58,559 gives you certitude, because those are all created things that are part of the 1545 02:16:58,719 --> 02:17:03,239 life of the Church, and they're all endued with grace, they're all indued 1546 02:17:03,280 --> 02:17:07,360 with the divine energies, and so they're all experiences of God. There's no 1547 02:17:07,559 --> 02:17:11,680 super experience of God that the Roman bishop has to the exclusion of any other 1548 02:17:11,760 --> 02:17:15,680 bishop. That's why the earliest church fathers say that the fullness of Catholicity exists 1549 02:17:16,079 --> 02:17:20,520 in the local bishop. So there's no super bishop in Rome that has super 1550 02:17:20,600 --> 02:17:22,879 Catholicism. You see, the fullness of the Church, the fullness of the 1551 02:17:22,920 --> 02:17:26,440 life of the Holy Spirit, is in the local church with the local bishop. 1552 02:17:28,920 --> 02:17:31,479 That's the Orthodox view, and so the Protestant view is, well, 1553 02:17:31,559 --> 02:17:37,639 good luck with you and the Holy Spirit in your Bible, and view is 1554 02:17:37,680 --> 02:17:43,639 good luck with you reading to the papal documents. We're doing people who have 1555 02:17:43,799 --> 02:17:52,000 not called in and who disagree tonight. So Daniel Griffin looks like he's been 1556 02:17:52,040 --> 02:18:13,319 waiting a while. Are you there? Daniel? All right? Daniel's not 1557 02:18:13,440 --> 02:18:20,479 there? Daniel? Are you there? Christian preacher and husband preacher? Daniel? 1558 02:18:20,520 --> 02:18:24,639 Are you there? Where are you at? You've been waiting for all 1559 02:18:24,680 --> 02:18:30,239 this time? You don't want to speak? Look a meanis you zue me? 1560 02:18:33,319 --> 02:18:41,680 Colonel Donnelly, Colonel Donnelly? Are you a real colonel? Colonel Sanders? 1561 02:18:41,760 --> 02:18:48,159 What's up? Yeah? What's up? Stuff? Um? One question? 1562 02:18:48,399 --> 02:18:54,799 Um? What does the does the mystical or mystical experienced planning part in 1563 02:18:54,920 --> 02:19:03,600 the Orthodox Church? With qualifications and caveats? I mean like, we wouldn't 1564 02:19:03,879 --> 02:19:11,159 say that the kind of mystical experiences that Eastern religions promote or that Charismatics have 1565 02:19:11,520 --> 02:19:16,399 is equivalent to or good for us. No, So I mean yeah, 1566 02:19:16,399 --> 02:19:18,399 I mean we would say that the Saints have a mystical union for sure, 1567 02:19:20,280 --> 02:19:22,959 but it's always it's always within the context of the church and the sacraments and 1568 02:19:24,040 --> 02:19:28,040 a spiritual Father. It's never like this thing of you going out there and 1569 02:19:28,319 --> 02:19:33,040 doing a ayahuasca vision quest or something like that. Oh yeah, I got 1570 02:19:33,079 --> 02:19:37,840 your h Is there any like description, hey, Jamie, that experience or 1571 02:19:37,959 --> 02:19:43,120 those experiences? H yeah, you could read about the Hess Cass and Saint 1572 02:19:43,159 --> 02:19:46,760 Gregor Palamos. Jamie, can you turn the air on? It's really hot 1573 02:19:46,840 --> 02:19:50,000 there. Do you know how they describe it? Is it? Like? 1574 02:19:52,159 --> 02:19:56,399 Yes, it's the vision of God's It's described as seeing God and it surpasses 1575 02:19:56,840 --> 02:20:01,920 all conceptual understanding. Okay, that's what Paul talks about when he talks about 1576 02:20:01,959 --> 02:20:05,040 being caught up into the third heavens. That's that's the same for us. 1577 02:20:05,120 --> 02:20:09,399 That's the same thing. Um, Matt, did you want to say something 1578 02:20:09,479 --> 02:20:18,399 now that you're back? Hey? Hey, you got sorry about the back 1579 02:20:18,479 --> 02:20:20,079 right, know it before? Bro, It's still there, but go ahead, 1580 02:20:22,159 --> 02:20:24,959 uh man An, let me get off the bee your phone, Daniel, 1581 02:20:24,280 --> 02:20:31,079 I'll put it real quick second. I mean, it's gonna this is 1582 02:20:31,120 --> 02:20:33,079 gonna go bad, so you don't even have to. I can already tell 1583 02:20:33,159 --> 02:20:39,079 this is it's gonna go back, right, Bro, It's it's even worse 1584 02:20:39,760 --> 02:20:43,440 good. Agree, I can already I can already tell it's gonna go bad 1585 02:20:43,479 --> 02:20:46,319 anyway. But maybe if I'm maybe another time if I'm in a better mood. 1586 02:20:46,479 --> 02:20:52,360 But Daniel Griffin's back. What's a pastor, Daniel. He's gonna put 1587 02:20:52,440 --> 02:20:56,159 us, put us straight, pretty the word of God to us. He's 1588 02:20:56,200 --> 02:20:58,959 going to set up straight. Hey, j can you hear me? Yes, 1589 02:20:58,040 --> 02:21:01,440 sir? Oh right on? Uh yeah, No, I'm not gonna 1590 02:21:01,559 --> 02:21:05,879 do any creation right now. I'm actually I'm a former Reformed Presbyterian. I'm 1591 02:21:05,879 --> 02:21:13,399 an Orthodox inquired oh um. Largely your videos really helped me a lot with 1592 02:21:13,479 --> 02:21:16,879 that. I just had a had a kind of I just thought of this 1593 02:21:18,000 --> 02:21:22,079 the other day with it because a lot of my family is still Presbyterian and 1594 02:21:22,079 --> 02:21:26,719 they look at you know, praying to saints is idolatry and icons idolatry and 1595 02:21:26,799 --> 02:21:31,040 all that. Um. I'm thinking though, uh, you know, they 1596 02:21:31,079 --> 02:21:35,559 also refer to the Bible as the Word of God, and upon you know, 1597 02:21:35,840 --> 02:21:39,159 inquiring into Orthodoxy, I'm I'm realizing, like, no, it's not. 1598 02:21:39,360 --> 02:21:43,559 Actually the Word of God is always Christ, It's always Jesus. Um. 1599 02:21:43,239 --> 02:21:48,120 So wouldn't calling the Bible the Word of God? Calling something God when 1600 02:21:48,159 --> 02:21:52,440 it's not God, wouldn't that be idolatry? No? I think that's fine 1601 02:21:52,520 --> 02:21:56,399 too. There is a sense in which we can call the scripture is the 1602 02:21:56,440 --> 02:21:58,840 word of God. There's something wrong with that. It's just that it's, 1603 02:21:58,000 --> 02:22:01,879 uh, you know, it's not mutually exclusive, or it's not the only 1604 02:22:03,040 --> 02:22:05,319 sense, right. I mean, Jesus says in John five, you know 1605 02:22:05,399 --> 02:22:09,479 you search the scriptures because you think that is in them that you have eternal 1606 02:22:09,559 --> 02:22:13,159 life, when it was they that testify of me. So the scriptures are 1607 02:22:13,280 --> 02:22:16,079 the word of God in the same way that the natural world is the word 1608 02:22:16,120 --> 02:22:20,159 of God. Right. So, Maximist says that there's one of the reasons 1609 02:22:20,280 --> 02:22:24,760 that if you read stunt Eloy's volume one of Orthodox Dogmatics, he says that 1610 02:22:24,920 --> 02:22:28,639 one of the reasons that there's no natural theology and the Orthodox tradition is because 1611 02:22:28,159 --> 02:22:33,440 there's no fundamental difference between the content and the revelation and nature and the content 1612 02:22:33,520 --> 02:22:37,719 and the revelation and scripture. The content of both is the same, which 1613 02:22:37,799 --> 02:22:41,159 is the logos, and the only difference is the medium. Right, sticks 1614 02:22:41,200 --> 02:22:46,040 and trees are not identical to the book, but what the sticks and the 1615 02:22:46,120 --> 02:22:52,239 trees point too is the same thing that the book points to. So so 1616 02:22:52,520 --> 02:22:58,280 everything is a theophanic manifestation of the logos, including the Bible and including sticks 1617 02:22:58,319 --> 02:23:01,239 and trees. Okay, so it's cool, it's still call it the word. 1618 02:23:01,360 --> 02:23:03,520 Yeah, so a word of God unlimited sense, right, but not 1619 02:23:03,639 --> 02:23:09,920 in the ultimate sense like the person itself Jesus is the literal living word of 1620 02:23:11,000 --> 02:23:13,280 God, a divine person. Right. So again, John five thirty nine. 1621 02:23:15,280 --> 02:23:18,399 Okay, cool man, Yeah, good questions. Thanks for your videos 1622 02:23:18,440 --> 02:23:20,360 and everything you do. Man, Thank you. It's joy to listen to 1623 02:23:20,719 --> 02:23:24,760 appreciate that. Yeah, God bless you. Man, appreciate that. I 1624 02:23:24,840 --> 02:23:33,079 thought that was going to get hot and heated. Caboose lube, oh, 1625 02:23:33,319 --> 02:23:43,360 butt lube. I guess this is gonna definitely be high quality. Are you 1626 02:23:43,440 --> 02:23:54,440 there, but lube? Are you there? I'm mute, all right, 1627 02:23:54,479 --> 02:23:56,920 so we know what we get on a Friday night. We get butt lube 1628 02:23:56,959 --> 02:24:16,520 calling in Okay, sure, m Kite and Jacob I'm mute. I'm mute. 1629 02:24:16,520 --> 02:24:20,040 You've been waiting all this time. I don't people wait for like an 1630 02:24:20,079 --> 02:24:24,360 hour and then they don't. I'm mute. Okay, Well we'll just move 1631 02:24:24,440 --> 02:24:31,680 on. Your majesty. Uh, we got the king. The king is 1632 02:24:31,719 --> 02:24:39,360 in the house. What's up, your majesty? What's so Jake? Yes, 1633 02:24:39,440 --> 02:24:43,600 sir, Yeah, So I wanted to ask you some questions, not 1634 02:24:43,760 --> 02:24:46,200 necessarily like just debate, just ask you questions, Um, what do you 1635 02:24:46,239 --> 02:24:50,520 think about Molanism from an Orthodox point of views that accepted in Orthodox Church or 1636 02:24:50,639 --> 02:24:56,479 what I mean? It's still couched in Protestant dialectics. So I would hesitate 1637 02:24:56,559 --> 02:25:01,239 from saying that the Orthodox Church is quote Molinists. So what would be like 1638 02:25:01,319 --> 02:25:07,920 the disagreements. Let's say, uh, it's it's sateriology is what solves our 1639 02:25:07,360 --> 02:25:13,760 you know, Crystal assuming Cristology is what solves our steriological issues. So it's 1640 02:25:13,799 --> 02:25:18,120 not a question of, um, you know, the relationship of Grace to 1641 02:25:18,200 --> 02:25:22,479 the individual. It's just a question of the relationship between Grace and the human 1642 02:25:22,600 --> 02:25:26,760 nature in the two natures of Christ. Right, So when the divine person 1643 02:25:26,879 --> 02:25:33,760 Logos deifies as human nature, that becomes the model for how humans synergize through 1644 02:25:33,760 --> 02:25:37,639 their natural energy to cooperate with Grace. So in a limited sense of like 1645 02:25:37,760 --> 02:25:43,920 cooperation, I guess you could say Molinism is part of that. And and 1646 02:25:43,319 --> 02:25:50,399 I would say that in the specifics of predestination, we don't really get into 1647 02:25:50,600 --> 02:25:54,799 like individual predestination per se, because in Paul's epistles. For example, predestination 1648 02:25:56,040 --> 02:26:00,559 is like it's collective and it's in the context of Christology. So Paul's writing 1649 02:26:00,559 --> 02:26:03,920 a letter to a visible church in Ephicis and he's saying you are the predestined. 1650 02:26:05,319 --> 02:26:09,120 It's not writing a letter to the invisible elect So again, Molinism is 1651 02:26:09,159 --> 02:26:15,959 still couched within Reformation dialectics and it's just not really addressing the main shift because 1652 02:26:16,000 --> 02:26:22,520 there's a different order of theology amongst Protestants as pros Orthodox got it, got 1653 02:26:22,559 --> 02:26:24,959 it? So, um, I had another question when it comes to like 1654 02:26:24,159 --> 02:26:30,040 orthodoxistemology, what what is the Orthodox to you want it? Is it Amollininism 1655 02:26:30,239 --> 02:26:35,000 or prem Illinism or what. I don't think there's one set. I mean 1656 02:26:35,040 --> 02:26:39,559 obviously you can't be premill I mean that's rejected at in the early Councils. 1657 02:26:39,600 --> 02:26:43,399 So you can't be premillennial. But that's why the Creed says, you know 1658 02:26:43,479 --> 02:26:46,719 who's kingdoms shall have no end. That was intended to exclude all forms of 1659 02:26:48,280 --> 02:26:54,000 millennialism. So he would say either either amel postmill could be acceptable in Orthodox 1660 02:26:54,159 --> 02:26:58,280 You okay, what about like Jesus and John sakes? He says that, 1661 02:26:58,079 --> 02:27:01,920 Um, what he talks about like you know, the Father. He says 1662 02:27:01,959 --> 02:27:05,399 that all that he has given we shall lose none of it, and they 1663 02:27:05,520 --> 02:27:09,040 raised them up to the last day. Doesn't that prove the Calvinistic doctrine? 1664 02:27:13,760 --> 02:27:16,959 Uh No, because all men are raised, right, So in this context 1665 02:27:18,000 --> 02:27:22,239 of recapitulation, Christ does raise all men at the last day. Nobody's lost. 1666 02:27:22,520 --> 02:27:26,399 All human nature has resurrected, right, So Jeffrey Dahmer gets resurrected for 1667 02:27:26,559 --> 02:27:30,200 on the same basis. Right. So when Jesus says that all that He's 1668 02:27:30,280 --> 02:27:33,680 given me, he's referring to like pretty much all of mankind, not like 1669 02:27:33,799 --> 02:27:35,920 the elect Well, it's all of the above, it's both and it's not 1670 02:27:37,159 --> 02:27:39,520 either one. Right, So all human nature is given to Christ because he 1671 02:27:39,600 --> 02:27:45,040 assumed universal human nature and there is there is a fixed number of the elect 1672 02:27:45,440 --> 02:27:48,200 but we don't know who that is, Okay, And what about like a 1673 02:27:48,319 --> 02:27:52,120 chrystologist, So like, how can um, how can you have something like 1674 02:27:52,319 --> 02:27:56,639 divine nature and then you know human nature who existing when they're like really the 1675 02:27:56,719 --> 02:28:01,479 opposite and they're not opposites, right, So they're not opposites, right, 1676 02:28:01,520 --> 02:28:05,440 that's dialectical thinking. God made man in his image, not as a dialectical 1677 02:28:05,479 --> 02:28:09,200 opposite. So they were all they were all, they were always meant to 1678 02:28:09,239 --> 02:28:20,399 go together. The incarnation is not an after thought. M damassing something I 1679 02:28:20,479 --> 02:28:30,159 can't read your full name. Probably gonna have to Uh, if we keep 1680 02:28:30,239 --> 02:28:33,000 going, I'm probably gonna get a little too sassy, so I might I 1681 02:28:33,079 --> 02:28:37,280 might have to just stop tonight. But what's up, damassing? There's going 1682 02:28:37,360 --> 02:28:39,799 man um. I had a Protestant friend rich out to me, and he 1683 02:28:41,000 --> 02:28:46,319 was asking me the difference between the Lutheran concept of baptismal generation and the Orthodox 1684 02:28:46,399 --> 02:28:50,360 concept. I don't know anything about the Lutheran concept. I'm wondering if you 1685 02:28:50,399 --> 02:28:54,280 could like summarize that real quick. Well. I don't think there's a big 1686 02:28:54,399 --> 02:29:01,319 difference just in baptismal regeneration itself from the Orthodox and the Lutheran view in terms 1687 02:29:01,360 --> 02:29:05,440 of like doing it for an infant or doing it for an adult. But 1688 02:29:05,879 --> 02:29:11,760 I don't know that. I don't know that Lutheranism has any specific idea of 1689 02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:16,159 uncreated grace. You know, there might be Lutheran theologians who have the opinion 1690 02:29:16,319 --> 02:29:18,840 that they believe in uncreated grace, but I mean, for us, it's 1691 02:29:18,840 --> 02:29:28,840 always couched within the holistic context. Of Christology. So weather baptism regenerates, 1692 02:29:28,799 --> 02:29:33,280 weather water baptism regenerates is not a point of difference between an Orthodox and a 1693 02:29:33,399 --> 02:29:39,840 Lutheran. The basis for justification is and what that grace is differs. Probably, 1694 02:29:41,000 --> 02:29:46,319 Okay, do you think that whatever Luther might have said about regenerating, 1695 02:29:46,399 --> 02:29:52,000 he probably got from Orthodoxy originally, whether he knew it or not. I 1696 02:29:52,079 --> 02:29:54,719 mean, Luther's just coming from an Augustinian tradition, and so you know, 1697 02:29:54,799 --> 02:30:03,520 the Latin Roman Catholic Augustinian Church professors baptismal regenerate. So okay, all right, 1698 02:30:03,559 --> 02:30:05,879 maybe my friend's question was a little maybe he didn't really know what he 1699 02:30:05,959 --> 02:30:11,840 was getting it. But I don't think Luther's concerned with what the quote Orthodox 1700 02:30:13,000 --> 02:30:18,000 Church teaches. I think Luther's just kind of defaulting to the Augustinian ethos. 1701 02:30:18,920 --> 02:30:30,399 Shady, what's up? I'm mute, Hey, Jay, I'm here to 1702 02:30:30,440 --> 02:30:33,440 get a little combative. If that's all right, Well might as well? 1703 02:30:33,680 --> 02:30:39,799 All right? Uh so I've heard you say that um, Christianity is not 1704 02:30:39,479 --> 02:30:46,319 a religion that's proven by miracles or miraculous works. Is that an accurate description 1705 02:30:46,360 --> 02:30:50,479 of your position? Yeah? I think miracles can attest to it, but 1706 02:30:50,559 --> 02:30:54,239 they can't be a strict proof because you know, I mean, every group, 1707 02:30:54,360 --> 02:30:58,200 every sect will claim miracles, right, so miracles themselves can't be quote 1708 02:30:58,280 --> 02:31:01,920 proof, but they can be evidences or they can attest to the religion being 1709 02:31:01,000 --> 02:31:05,360 true. Sure, Okay, do you think that was always the case? 1710 02:31:05,520 --> 02:31:13,000 Or is this in like you know, a postum maybe like you know, 1711 02:31:13,079 --> 02:31:15,760 in the Church era this is the case or would you say this has always 1712 02:31:15,840 --> 02:31:20,079 kind of been a case for God's people to not you know, prove the 1713 02:31:20,520 --> 02:31:28,040 trueness of their religion through miracles. Well because of the fact that at any 1714 02:31:28,159 --> 02:31:33,239 point anybody could claim a miracle. Yes, I would say that that's always 1715 02:31:33,319 --> 02:31:37,120 true, that the definitive proof is not going to be a miracle, but 1716 02:31:37,200 --> 02:31:41,639 would have to be some other kind of argumentation, like a worldview or you 1717 02:31:41,719 --> 02:31:46,639 know, something else beyond just a miracle. Okay, let me let me 1718 02:31:46,639 --> 02:31:50,520 can I let me give an example that like let we say, well, 1719 02:31:50,760 --> 02:31:54,920 let's say that we let's say for the sake of argument, that somebody put 1720 02:31:56,000 --> 02:32:03,680 together a really solid scientific paper somehow that maybe proved the shroud of Turan or 1721 02:32:03,799 --> 02:32:11,799 they proved that the you know, tomb in Jerusalem had to be the tomb 1722 02:32:11,879 --> 02:32:15,360 where Jesus was and it's empty. Okay, So let's say there was like 1723 02:32:15,399 --> 02:32:18,959 some really solid proof of the resurrection or you know, the tomb being empty 1724 02:32:20,000 --> 02:32:24,879 or the shroud or something like that. Right, like that itself, how 1725 02:32:24,920 --> 02:32:28,680 would that prove the totem? It wouldn't prove the Christian religion because the resurrection 1726 02:32:28,719 --> 02:32:35,159 of Jesus only makes sense with the rest of the theology, right because somebody 1727 02:32:35,239 --> 02:32:39,840 could say, Okay, well maybe he just you know, maybe maybe crazy 1728 02:32:39,920 --> 02:32:43,600 stuff happens, maybe he passed out, Maybe there's a lot of other things 1729 02:32:43,680 --> 02:32:50,040 that could be brought in. So one miracle like that doesn't necessarily mean the 1730 02:32:50,120 --> 02:32:52,680 rest of the religion is true, right, I mean a Muslim might say, 1731 02:32:52,360 --> 02:32:54,920 okay, well if that was the case, you know you have other 1732 02:32:56,120 --> 02:33:00,559 holy Men who were resurrected. Okay, so what so you know the Bible 1733 02:33:00,639 --> 02:33:09,239 talks about the bones of Elifsha bringing somebody back from the dead, right. 1734 02:33:11,040 --> 02:33:16,760 Um. I guess the reason I'm asking this question is like we see in 1735 02:33:16,840 --> 02:33:20,879 Matthew eleven, when you know, John the Baptist sends his disciples to Jesus 1736 02:33:22,520 --> 02:33:24,920 and they're asking, you know, basically for proof that he is who he 1737 02:33:26,000 --> 02:33:31,159 says he is, like all of everything Jesus tells them is is. You 1738 02:33:31,239 --> 02:33:35,760 know. Look, tell him what you've seen. The work is on the 1739 02:33:35,840 --> 02:33:39,319 list of his miracles. Yeah, the works. But you notice that Jesus 1740 02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:45,200 also says that a wicked and adulterous generation seeks a sign, and no sign 1741 02:33:45,239 --> 02:33:46,879 will be given to it but that of Jonah. And he says that if 1742 02:33:46,920 --> 02:33:50,600 you know, remember the story of the guy who died. If you remember 1743 02:33:50,600 --> 02:33:52,600 the story of the guy who dies. Uh, he says, hey, 1744 02:33:52,879 --> 02:33:56,399 you know, he's in neighbor, he's in torments. And he says, 1745 02:33:56,520 --> 02:33:58,760 uh, let me go back and warm my brothers. If one rises from 1746 02:33:58,760 --> 02:34:03,159 the dead, they will believe. And Jesus doesn't say, yes, if 1747 02:34:03,200 --> 02:34:05,959 they just saw a miracle of a resurrection and coming back from the dead, 1748 02:34:05,959 --> 02:34:09,600 they would believe. No, Jesus says, they have Abraham and the prophets, 1749 02:34:09,799 --> 02:34:11,520 and if they don't listen to Abraham the prophets, they will not believe 1750 02:34:11,600 --> 02:34:15,239 though one rise from the dead. So no, I don't think Jesus is 1751 02:34:15,239 --> 02:34:20,440 actually teaching that any kind of miracle will somehow prove the faith. The miracles 1752 02:34:20,479 --> 02:34:22,799 attest to it. That's why he says that if you don't, if you 1753 02:34:24,239 --> 02:34:26,239 believe that, He actually gives two options. He says, believe what I 1754 02:34:26,360 --> 02:34:30,680 taught and you can see the scriptures, and otherwise believe on the case on 1755 02:34:30,799 --> 02:34:33,840 the basis of the miracles. So it's fine to believe on the basis of 1756 02:34:33,879 --> 02:34:39,959 the miracles, but they don't prove it. Okay. Yeah, I was 1757 02:34:41,000 --> 02:34:45,280 just looking at you know, let me tells, go back and report to 1758 02:34:45,360 --> 02:34:48,159 John what you hear and see. And I was also just thinking, you 1759 02:34:48,280 --> 02:34:52,159 know, back for Moses, for example, he used miracles to prove that 1760 02:34:52,319 --> 02:34:56,719 he, you know, was legit, whereas the magicians, to your point, 1761 02:34:58,319 --> 02:35:01,239 could do some with miracles, but they kind of were proven to be 1762 02:35:01,360 --> 02:35:07,479 lesser than what Moses did. Yeah. Again, I think that in certain 1763 02:35:07,520 --> 02:35:13,399 cases, You're right, you could have situations where God demonstrates his power being 1764 02:35:13,639 --> 02:35:18,040 above those of the challenge him. But what I'm saying is, how do 1765 02:35:18,159 --> 02:35:22,559 I know, as an individual who isn't there for any of this stuff. 1766 02:35:22,600 --> 02:35:26,360 I just hear this stuff like I can't confirm it. And you know, 1767 02:35:26,440 --> 02:35:31,600 I've got I've got a book over on my Muslim shelf of all these stories 1768 02:35:31,680 --> 02:35:35,559 of Islamic miracles, and you see that's supposed to vindicate improve Islam for me. 1769 02:35:35,959 --> 02:35:41,520 Right, So you see what I'm saying is like, if I'm not 1770 02:35:41,639 --> 02:35:46,959 physically present for these events, then how are these events going to be the 1771 02:35:48,120 --> 02:35:50,959 final arbiter or a proof? Right? So sometimes too, you could have 1772 02:35:52,079 --> 02:35:56,799 people talking about evidences can be called proofs in a limited sense and not in 1773 02:35:58,040 --> 02:36:01,959 like a strictly philosophical sense. Right. So miracles, I think can attest 1774 02:36:03,000 --> 02:36:05,680 to the faith, they can be evidences for it, but they're not proofs 1775 02:36:05,760 --> 02:36:13,000 in a strict philosophical sense of proof. Okay, because you gotta have some 1776 02:36:13,079 --> 02:36:18,479 way. You gotta have some way to judge between every different religious group claiming 1777 02:36:18,520 --> 02:36:24,840 miracles, right, And I guess these were miracles that the person, the 1778 02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:31,319 people in these different passages we're seeing exactly exactly. And also remember Deuteronomy thirteen 1779 02:36:31,399 --> 02:36:37,360 and Deronomi eighteen explicitly say that you have a duty not just to believe the 1780 02:36:37,479 --> 02:36:43,680 signs and the wonders, but to test the theology. So the primary way 1781 02:36:43,799 --> 02:36:46,479 by which we judge it is on the basis of the divine revelation that comes 1782 02:36:46,559 --> 02:36:52,600 before. Because don Aronmi thirteen and Deteronomy eighteen say that when you see a 1783 02:36:52,719 --> 02:36:56,680 prophet or a person claiming to be a prophet and their miracles, their signs 1784 02:36:56,680 --> 02:37:00,760 and wonders come true. Don't believe it if they tell you to do some 1785 02:37:00,879 --> 02:37:03,959 other kind of religious practice or theology. You see, So the divine revelation 1786 02:37:05,159 --> 02:37:11,040 is the primary judge, not the other way around. Okay, Um, 1787 02:37:11,959 --> 02:37:16,159 I had a second. I guess it's somewhat related. Point. You'll read 1788 02:37:16,479 --> 02:37:22,559 in different uh, you know, church fathers in different places to not trust 1789 02:37:22,719 --> 02:37:26,559 dreams, not to believe dreams, pre less in these type of things. 1790 02:37:28,000 --> 02:37:33,520 But then there's also a lot of stories just through church history, I mean, 1791 02:37:33,559 --> 02:37:39,719 like Saint Nicholas for example, where really important, powerful events are communicated 1792 02:37:39,079 --> 02:37:45,040 through dreams, you know, even like with you know, Saint John Chrysossom 1793 02:37:45,680 --> 02:37:50,280 and I think Saint Cyril, you know. Like so it seems like there's 1794 02:37:50,799 --> 02:37:54,079 some writings where it says don't trust dreams at all, and then there's other 1795 02:37:54,159 --> 02:37:58,440 places where, um, you know, right after a guy punches someone in 1796 02:37:58,520 --> 02:38:01,200 the face through a dream that told it, that's you know, okay, 1797 02:38:01,719 --> 02:38:05,399 and I get I know that maybe that's like the level of the holiness of 1798 02:38:05,440 --> 02:38:09,799 the person receiving a dream or something like that, But is there any Yeah, 1799 02:38:09,840 --> 02:38:13,040 this is the role of a strip, This is the role of a 1800 02:38:13,120 --> 02:38:16,520 spiritual father. So the role of the spiritual father is precisely to help through 1801 02:38:16,639 --> 02:38:24,840 these kinds of experiences so that we don't fall into prelust. Absolutely, Okay, 1802 02:38:26,000 --> 02:38:28,680 so I guess, like you know, in other words, if I 1803 02:38:28,799 --> 02:38:33,239 thought I was having h I'm not. I'm not saying this because I don't 1804 02:38:33,280 --> 02:38:35,959 think I have any prophetic powers or dreams. But let's say that I did 1805 02:38:37,040 --> 02:38:39,440 have a dream that I thought was prophetic or I thought God was speaking to 1806 02:38:39,559 --> 02:38:43,520 me, right, like what I would the proper process would be I would 1807 02:38:43,559 --> 02:38:46,840 talk to my spiritual father about it and get his wisdom and insight, and 1808 02:38:46,920 --> 02:38:52,639 there would be probably kind of tests, and you know, people would bounce 1809 02:38:52,719 --> 02:38:54,079 it off of other people. It wouldn't be this thing where it's like, 1810 02:38:54,920 --> 02:38:58,879 you know, you just run with it. There would be cautious processes and 1811 02:38:58,000 --> 02:39:01,719 steps by which we would want to make sure that it's not some kind of 1812 02:39:01,760 --> 02:39:05,799 delusion, right, and so, well, did it does the if it's 1813 02:39:05,840 --> 02:39:07,120 a you know, I saw a dream that where something's going to happen, 1814 02:39:07,159 --> 02:39:11,040 and well did it come to pass? Okay? Yes, then okay, 1815 02:39:11,120 --> 02:39:13,840 maybe it was and then we would still you know, it would be under 1816 02:39:13,879 --> 02:39:16,559 the guidance of a spiritual father. Right. So, um, that's the 1817 02:39:16,719 --> 02:39:22,399 process that we have and that's why it's it's that's to guard against the kind 1818 02:39:22,399 --> 02:39:24,079 of stuff that we see in the Roman Catholic Church, like in the you 1819 02:39:24,200 --> 02:39:28,280 know, with these crazy women saints that are you know, talking to flying 1820 02:39:28,360 --> 02:39:31,799 hosts and flying around the room and carving things in their chest. Right, 1821 02:39:31,840 --> 02:39:33,920 that's that's not what we do, right, we would say that's all prelist. 1822 02:39:35,280 --> 02:39:39,840 So but it doesn't mean that there's not miracles, clairvoyance and spiritual gifts 1823 02:39:39,879 --> 02:39:46,159 and all that. But that's done in the context of guidance, Okay, 1824 02:39:46,319 --> 02:39:50,280 because yeah, that makes sense. And I'm thinking about a lot of profits 1825 02:39:50,319 --> 02:39:56,959 from the Old Testament who obviously were in the minority and maybe the you know, 1826 02:39:56,040 --> 02:40:01,040 the people who would maybe in the whole coming to be looked at as 1827 02:40:01,159 --> 02:40:05,440 spiritual elders or guides were typically the people that were you know, maybe compromise 1828 02:40:05,559 --> 02:40:09,559 or whatever that we're tending to prophesy like things that people wanted to hear. 1829 02:40:09,719 --> 02:40:13,239 So you know, in a case like Amos or some of these other guys, 1830 02:40:13,959 --> 02:40:16,680 they might not have been able to uh, you know, he didn't 1831 02:40:16,719 --> 02:40:22,079 have really any credentials to begin with. And um, you know, well 1832 02:40:22,079 --> 02:40:24,360 it's not a matter of credentials. It's a matter of being in the presence 1833 02:40:24,440 --> 02:40:30,159 of holy men and elders and saints, right, So it's not about academics 1834 02:40:30,239 --> 02:40:33,479 per se. Uh. And that's why I think we would say that, 1835 02:40:33,719 --> 02:40:37,159 you know, the role of the elder is kind of like the role of 1836 02:40:37,440 --> 02:40:41,840 Elijah and the schools of the prophets. So Orthodoxy still has even that that 1837 02:40:41,200 --> 02:40:46,280 um office beyond just okay, yeah, there's the hierarchy of the priests and 1838 02:40:46,360 --> 02:40:50,360 the bishop, but a lot of times the you know, secular we could 1839 02:40:50,360 --> 02:40:58,280 say clergy have been compromised. And so that's that's that role of the sage 1840 02:40:58,479 --> 02:41:03,200 the elder that calls you know, people back to repentance even even perhaps um 1841 02:41:05,559 --> 02:41:09,040 the clergy, right, um, and an elder can function in that kind 1842 02:41:09,040 --> 02:41:13,200 of alges style of role. Yeah, That's kind of what I was imagining 1843 02:41:13,360 --> 02:41:18,479 is if you had, you know, just an Amos type of figure, 1844 02:41:18,520 --> 02:41:22,520 just some random shepherd or you know, just some simple person who was told 1845 02:41:22,639 --> 02:41:26,920 something and he goes to his Well, we don't know that Amos who didn't 1846 02:41:26,920 --> 02:41:28,719 have yeah, we don't. We don't know that Amos didn't have any other 1847 02:41:28,840 --> 02:41:31,760 holy men, right, I mean maybe there were, like you said, 1848 02:41:31,840 --> 02:41:35,719 compromised uh you know, Levites and whatnot, but he could have still had 1849 02:41:35,799 --> 02:41:39,799 other you know, holy men that he interacted with a lot of the minor 1850 02:41:39,879 --> 02:41:43,440 prophets. You know, we only have a little a little bit of what 1851 02:41:43,600 --> 02:41:46,079 they said, and you know, we don't really know much about their life. 1852 02:41:46,520 --> 02:41:50,680 Okay, Yeah, that I guess. It's just what I'm trying to 1853 02:41:50,600 --> 02:41:56,319 understand, maybe the balance between like these obvious periods where you have you know, 1854 02:41:56,639 --> 02:42:01,479 even today, like large portions of the Church that are you know, 1855 02:42:01,639 --> 02:42:05,440 water down or liberal or eyes or you know, whatever it is. And 1856 02:42:05,559 --> 02:42:09,079 it's not a new problem like you see it through the Old and Testament all 1857 02:42:09,159 --> 02:42:13,879 through the ages and sort of throwing the balance between you know, just letting 1858 02:42:15,280 --> 02:42:20,959 a bunch of soft liberal you know priests tamped down people who are you know, 1859 02:42:20,040 --> 02:42:24,600 they'll put whatever label on him versus um you know that actually being in 1860 02:42:24,680 --> 02:42:28,959 the case, I guess, yeah, I would agree with you. Good 1861 02:42:28,959 --> 02:42:33,520 points. I thought you're gonna be combative. You had great points. Uh 1862 02:42:33,239 --> 02:42:43,280 why sorry, I already already removed you there, Um, We'll get Matt 1863 02:42:43,319 --> 02:42:46,799 one last chance to see if his phone's good. But I'm kind of tired, 1864 02:42:46,840 --> 02:42:50,399 so I don't know if I can, I don't know. I think 1865 02:42:50,440 --> 02:42:54,440 go much longer. Oh, sir, Yes, sir. He just wanting 1866 02:42:54,479 --> 02:43:01,360 to circle back on ceology sateriology. Sorry, I am bad at pronunciations, 1867 02:43:01,520 --> 02:43:07,360 so tiology excuse me? Fine, yes, sir, yeah, no, 1868 02:43:07,520 --> 02:43:09,760 I just wanted to talk about grace and in relation to that, as well 1869 02:43:09,879 --> 02:43:15,600 as what the Orthodox perspective is. Yeah. So, I mean, obviously 1870 02:43:16,120 --> 02:43:20,159 the difference though, is that we have two different presuppositions about what grace is. 1871 02:43:20,399 --> 02:43:24,760 Right. So for most Protestants, grace is conceived of as a dispositional 1872 02:43:24,959 --> 02:43:28,879 change and how God views them. I'm not saying that they don't believe there's 1873 02:43:28,920 --> 02:43:31,360 some dwelling of the Holy Spirit. And understand, the most Protestant thing to 1874 02:43:31,360 --> 02:43:35,280 the Holy Spirit dwells you and then now that the Holy spirits there, it's 1875 02:43:35,319 --> 02:43:39,920 because you are justified by faith, and you know, God has now changed 1876 02:43:39,399 --> 02:43:43,799 from the disposition of wrath too. He likes you, know so. But 1877 02:43:43,000 --> 02:43:46,639 we have a different notion. I mean, some of that is in our 1878 02:43:46,719 --> 02:43:52,440 theology, but we believe grace is an uncreated energy of God. So you 1879 02:43:52,520 --> 02:43:56,319 know, very different ideas that work here. So when we say grace and 1880 02:43:56,639 --> 02:44:00,879 what the Orthodox Church has in its sacraments, that's what we're talking about, 1881 02:44:01,040 --> 02:44:05,840 the uncreated grace of God. So very different from what you you typically would 1882 02:44:05,959 --> 02:44:11,159 be thinking of, Right, I guess could you could you elaborate on it? 1883 02:44:11,200 --> 02:44:13,479 I mean, like I that's a new concept to me. Right, 1884 02:44:13,520 --> 02:44:18,159 So Jesus says, Jesus says in John seventeen that he came to give us 1885 02:44:18,920 --> 02:44:22,040 the glory that he had with the Father before the foundation of the world. 1886 02:44:22,120 --> 02:44:28,040 So to partake of the vine glory is not a creature, so that glory 1887 02:44:28,159 --> 02:44:31,879 isn't something created, It's an uncreated reality which makes us immortal. So for 1888 02:44:33,079 --> 02:44:35,879 us, grace is the gift of the Holy Spirit, namely the divine energy 1889 02:44:35,959 --> 02:44:43,399 of immortality, life, uncreated life and immortality. Right, Okay, So 1890 02:44:43,639 --> 02:44:46,799 then as far as salvation is concerned, like that is salvation. It is 1891 02:44:46,920 --> 02:44:52,200 being resurrected after the image of the resurrected Christ. So Christ's body is made 1892 02:44:52,799 --> 02:44:56,200 in that way when he's resurrected, right, So he's resurrected, his flesh 1893 02:44:56,319 --> 02:45:00,719 is deified, it's not bound by the limitations of time space, he walks 1894 02:45:00,760 --> 02:45:05,280 through walls, he disappears, etcetera. That's the deified flesh that we believe 1895 02:45:05,719 --> 02:45:09,399 we're eating in the Eucharist. So the Eucharist is the summation of all of 1896 02:45:09,479 --> 02:45:13,959 those Old Testament ceremonies and rituals, litbitical rights. It is the passover of 1897 02:45:15,040 --> 02:45:18,920 the Christian and the summation of all the Jewish feasts. What Paul calls in 1898 02:45:18,040 --> 02:45:24,040 Hebrews thirteen the altar that we eat from. That's not the altar that the 1899 02:45:24,239 --> 02:45:31,559 people at the temple eat at. Okay, So could you could you tell 1900 02:45:31,639 --> 02:45:37,200 me like where from an Orthodox perspective, like where does salvation occur for an 1901 02:45:37,280 --> 02:45:43,200 individual? Salvation begins with baptism, It's a process of living, and it 1902 02:45:43,879 --> 02:45:50,479 ends in final salvation in the resurrection. Okay. So in that case, 1903 02:45:50,159 --> 02:45:56,000 is like if somebody's baptized as an Orthodox and they go through all the stuff 1904 02:45:56,000 --> 02:46:01,520 that they need to do that um, but they don't of a Orthodox life. 1905 02:46:01,040 --> 02:46:05,959 Are they saved or not? No? No, okay, So they 1906 02:46:05,079 --> 02:46:11,840 still have that that consecration, sanctification aspect of the lifestyle. Right, Well, 1907 02:46:11,879 --> 02:46:16,520 they're part of the church, but they are eventually at whatever point, 1908 02:46:16,600 --> 02:46:18,959 whether they in this life or in the next, are cut out of the 1909 02:46:20,040 --> 02:46:22,920 Covenant. So they're no longer in the Covenant because they didn't live according to 1910 02:46:24,280 --> 02:46:28,440 the stricters of the Covenant. Got it? So could you could you tell 1911 02:46:28,479 --> 02:46:33,920 me the Orthodox perspective on the thief on the cross? Yeah, I used 1912 02:46:35,000 --> 02:46:39,799 him as an earlier example of somebody who was joined to the mystical body outside 1913 02:46:39,799 --> 02:46:43,239 of the normative means of baptism in the Eucharist. This is also before the 1914 02:46:43,319 --> 02:46:48,520 institution of baptism, by the way, right, So the when I guess 1915 02:46:48,680 --> 02:46:54,120 the institution of baptism would have happened in Matthew twenty eight, I imagine baptized 1916 02:46:54,159 --> 02:46:56,920 them in the name of the Father Son of Holy Spirit. So sure, 1917 02:46:58,440 --> 02:47:03,319 so, are there's still aspects now? Are still people now that have that 1918 02:47:03,799 --> 02:47:09,120 sort of like I don't know? So I already answered that. I already 1919 02:47:09,159 --> 02:47:11,559 answered that question when you when you called him before. Maybe you couldn't hear 1920 02:47:11,639 --> 02:47:16,520 me, but yes, I answered in the affirmative that there may be people 1921 02:47:16,600 --> 02:47:20,079 who are like the Catechumans that are murdered in the early Church, who are 1922 02:47:20,120 --> 02:47:26,680 still considered part of the church um and they're baptized by desire, baptized by 1923 02:47:26,719 --> 02:47:30,639 blood, or baptized by fire. Those are different baptisms that the early church 1924 02:47:30,719 --> 02:47:37,799 fathers talk about. So I guess that's certainly possible. With like when do 1925 02:47:37,840 --> 02:47:41,319 you when can you tell if somebody's like salvations? We're not told that, 1926 02:47:41,680 --> 02:47:45,120 and so we go by is the public confession of the church. As I 1927 02:47:45,200 --> 02:47:48,559 said, how do I know any I don't know. I can't judge into 1928 02:47:48,719 --> 02:47:54,920 I can't, okay, so fault, that's okay. I can't judge anybody's 1929 02:47:54,000 --> 02:47:58,040 individual cases. I don't I don't know their hearts. It's not my job 1930 02:47:58,120 --> 02:47:58,920 to do that, right, Paul says, what do we have to do 1931 02:48:00,079 --> 02:48:03,440 with judging those who are without? We judge those that are within. So 1932 02:48:03,639 --> 02:48:05,959 God will judge those that are without um, you know, in his way. 1933 02:48:07,600 --> 02:48:09,319 But it's our duty to you know, what is it? What does 1934 02:48:09,319 --> 02:48:13,840 it say in the Old Testament? Right? The things that are the secret 1935 02:48:13,879 --> 02:48:16,399 things belong to the Lord. But the things that are revealed belong to us 1936 02:48:16,440 --> 02:48:18,360 in our children, right, And so what's revealed to us while we tell 1937 02:48:18,399 --> 02:48:20,920 people to join the Orthodox Church, that's what's revealed to it. I don't 1938 02:48:20,959 --> 02:48:24,280 know the secret decree of God and in what ways he can join people to 1939 02:48:24,360 --> 02:48:28,840 the mystical body Orthodox Church. Right. So I and I think that I 1940 02:48:28,920 --> 02:48:35,319 watched a video of you where it was a tertiary topic where you were talking 1941 02:48:35,399 --> 02:48:41,280 about how the disciples came to Jesus and they said, hey, these people 1942 02:48:41,280 --> 02:48:43,280 are doing things in your name, and he said, hey, if they're 1943 02:48:43,319 --> 02:48:46,280 not against us, there for us. Well, he also says they will 1944 02:48:46,360 --> 02:48:50,040 not they will not always be against us, right, And so there's nobody 1945 02:48:50,079 --> 02:48:54,079 who can do a miracle in my name who will always be against us. 1946 02:48:54,120 --> 02:48:56,040 And if you look in the Book of Acts, it's I think chapters eight 1947 02:48:56,239 --> 02:49:01,360 nine and then eighteen and nineteen, you'll find in two cases where the apostles 1948 02:49:01,479 --> 02:49:05,959 find disciples of John and disciples of the Lord who were not fully instructed. 1949 02:49:07,520 --> 02:49:11,200 And so what they do is bring them under the episcope. They appoint bishops 1950 02:49:11,239 --> 02:49:15,000 in those places. So the fact that there are people at that time period 1951 02:49:15,079 --> 02:49:18,680 in redemptive history before the establishment of the Church at Pentecost, that's not a 1952 02:49:18,840 --> 02:49:22,680 proof of a humanism or the idea that there is no visible church structure, 1953 02:49:22,799 --> 02:49:28,200 because Pentecost is still yet to happen. And that's a really important event in 1954 02:49:28,280 --> 02:49:31,120 redemptive history. So Pentecost is the real birth of the church, right, 1955 02:49:31,239 --> 02:49:35,479 and that's where the church is empowered to go forth. And if you learn 1956 02:49:35,559 --> 02:49:39,680 the New Testament, it's very clear that the church is setting up a successive 1957 02:49:39,239 --> 02:49:46,879 visible structure which can with authority judge the church. Okay, So in I 1958 02:49:46,000 --> 02:49:50,680 think it's Acts nine. If Philip goes and it's the story of the magician 1959 02:49:50,799 --> 02:49:58,079 that had some conversion ish Poulis or like he's someone happened with him and he 1960 02:49:58,319 --> 02:50:01,079 was actually baptized, then Peter showed up on the scene with that you talk 1961 02:50:01,079 --> 02:50:07,840 about Simon, Yeah, yeah, what about it? I I'm just curious 1962 02:50:07,879 --> 02:50:13,520 about that because that's so Philip was baptizing people and was talking the Gospel to 1963 02:50:13,639 --> 02:50:16,760 them, but then Peter showed up on the scene giving Holy Spirit. So 1964 02:50:18,079 --> 02:50:22,399 what I Yeah, that's called Chris Mason. That's Chris that well Chris Mason, 1965 02:50:22,600 --> 02:50:28,719 and anointing on the Holy Spirit occurs throughout the book of Acts, right, 1966 02:50:28,760 --> 02:50:31,840 But what was Philip not doing that Peter was doing? Well, doesn't 1967 02:50:31,879 --> 02:50:35,719 Peter? Isn't there a Chris Mason that occurs? Is that what he lays 1968 02:50:35,760 --> 02:50:39,079 hands on it? But like was p Was Philip not like allowed to do 1969 02:50:39,319 --> 02:50:45,079 was he not able to do that? Um? Well, what was Philip 1970 02:50:45,120 --> 02:50:50,840 a deacon? I'm trying to remember, but he was one of the twelve 1971 02:50:50,040 --> 02:50:56,239 if I'm not mistaken. Well, it could be that he wasn't there, 1972 02:50:56,760 --> 02:51:03,200 He wasn't endued with or didn't know about, like the full initiation into the 1973 02:51:03,280 --> 02:51:07,000 Christian mysteries like Chris Mason. So it's certainly possible he didn't know about Christmason. 1974 02:51:07,120 --> 02:51:11,600 Sure, it's not like everybody in the Book of Acts knows the fullness 1975 02:51:11,639 --> 02:51:16,239 of what all is coming. Right. For example, Peter has to learn 1976 02:51:16,319 --> 02:51:20,280 about the dietary laws, right because in chapter ten, Peter still thinks that 1977 02:51:20,319 --> 02:51:24,639 we're supposed to keep the Jewish dietary laws, and God has to give him 1978 02:51:24,680 --> 02:51:28,600 the vision of the sheet to convince him. So even Peter doesn't fully know 1979 02:51:28,680 --> 02:51:31,559 what's going on. But we do see the principle of the laying on of 1980 02:51:31,600 --> 02:51:35,639 hands to receive the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts, and which is 1981 02:51:35,719 --> 02:51:41,920 not just ordination, it's also Chris Mason, which is the Orthodox sacrament. 1982 02:51:43,920 --> 02:51:48,840 Yeah, I guess I'm not familiar with Chris Nation as the sacrament. Can 1983 02:51:48,920 --> 02:51:52,319 you tell me what that is real quick ages, so I know. Yeah, 1984 02:51:52,399 --> 02:51:56,280 so this is the anointing that James talks about, anointing with oil, 1985 02:51:56,440 --> 02:52:01,360 and it's what we do to I mean, if if an infant is baptized, 1986 02:52:01,399 --> 02:52:05,559 has also Christ made it, but it signifies the individual's personal pentecost. 1987 02:52:05,799 --> 02:52:11,200 So it's a ritual with holy oil of anointing. That's what we see in 1988 02:52:11,200 --> 02:52:15,360 the Book of Acts, right right, right, So okay, so yeah, 1989 02:52:15,399 --> 02:52:20,760 I understand that. Um, I guess my question would be like, 1990 02:52:20,520 --> 02:52:26,559 because I guess it's circling back into this idea of grace, which you say, 1991 02:52:26,639 --> 02:52:31,360 we have differing definitions on them. That's all right, we like so 1992 02:52:33,200 --> 02:52:37,639 you have you like, how do you evangelize like into countries that are like 1993 02:52:37,120 --> 02:52:41,159 basically all they have, Like when you give them the Gospel, that's literally 1994 02:52:41,239 --> 02:52:43,200 all they have. You don't have an orthodox preach priest there to be able 1995 02:52:43,239 --> 02:52:46,719 to like give them chrismation. You don't have an orthodox priest there. Okay, 1996 02:52:46,760 --> 02:52:50,680 well, I mean people, Okay, so people do the best that 1997 02:52:50,719 --> 02:52:52,879 they can. But if you if you know the history of the Church, 1998 02:52:52,079 --> 02:52:56,719 it is the church actually setting up churches and ordaining people and doing the liturgy. 1999 02:52:58,079 --> 02:53:03,440 So that's the only historical church there is is that this so is prosonism 2000 02:53:03,520 --> 02:53:07,879 going out and spreading the gospel. That's not the gospel or not, it's 2001 02:53:07,959 --> 02:53:13,200 not the gospel. The gospel is what the totality of the theology Orthodox Church 2002 02:53:13,319 --> 02:53:16,879 is the gospel. There's no scale down Romans road. That is the gospel. 2003 02:53:18,040 --> 02:53:20,319 Okay, So I see what you're saying. So as far as somebody 2004 02:53:20,680 --> 02:53:26,680 if you're if you only have the scriptures, that just say, the canon 2005 02:53:26,799 --> 02:53:31,399 the canonical scriptures, So why would we make the exemptions to the rule? 2006 02:53:31,479 --> 02:53:35,120 The rule? Here? What I detect here is just this idea that well, 2007 02:53:35,319 --> 02:53:37,799 it's lowest common denominator and because somebody like this, so the thief on 2008 02:53:37,879 --> 02:53:41,799 the cross, uh, you know, is is saved in a you know, 2009 02:53:43,319 --> 02:53:46,440 uh, out of the ordinary way. So that the ordinary now is 2010 02:53:46,479 --> 02:53:50,319 the normative way. And it's just that's it's it's reverse, you got it 2011 02:53:50,360 --> 02:53:54,200 backwards, like the normative way is not that the normative way is that there's 2012 02:53:54,239 --> 02:53:58,680 a historic church that exists from the time of the Apostles that put the Bible 2013 02:53:58,719 --> 02:54:01,879 together other and has this ritual that they do called the liturgy, and they 2014 02:54:01,959 --> 02:54:05,840 have this introductory right called baptism, and they have chrismation, and they have 2015 02:54:05,920 --> 02:54:11,120 all these things that you find the Orthodox Church. So the normative way of 2016 02:54:11,159 --> 02:54:15,959 poor like modern ish cultures, right, Like there's a lot of cultures out 2017 02:54:16,000 --> 02:54:18,399 there that like going on missions that they don't have those cultures, Am I 2018 02:54:18,479 --> 02:54:24,280 correct? Or they don't have that ability like so if like, for instance, 2019 02:54:24,600 --> 02:54:26,680 okay, but I mean in the book in the Book of Acts, 2020 02:54:26,280 --> 02:54:31,719 in the Book of Acts in the Bibles, and they talk about Christ and 2021 02:54:31,799 --> 02:54:33,840 talk about Hey, that's okay, that's good, but none of that's the 2022 02:54:33,920 --> 02:54:37,840 gospel, right And even in the Book of Acts they're even told at one 2023 02:54:37,840 --> 02:54:39,840 point not to go into Asia minor, the Holy Spirit tells them not to 2024 02:54:39,879 --> 02:54:43,879 go into Asia. Mind, I don't know why, but so, um, 2025 02:54:43,600 --> 02:54:48,879 you know, the why God's Providence doesn't yet have the Orthodox Church in 2026 02:54:48,959 --> 02:54:52,799 certain areas, I don't know. But none of what you're saying really has 2027 02:54:52,799 --> 02:54:56,879 anything to do with whether there is a visible public church in history or not. 2028 02:54:56,000 --> 02:54:58,440 I'm not trying to be rude to you. I'm just saying, like 2029 02:54:58,639 --> 02:55:03,760 the that a Protestant can send a Bible to China, Like, what does 2030 02:55:03,760 --> 02:55:05,760 that have to do with whether or not there's a historic visible church or not. 2031 02:55:07,840 --> 02:55:11,680 Well, I guess, like I mean, the churches in the first 2032 02:55:11,719 --> 02:55:16,000 century started off as like quote unquote house churches. Yeah, but that's yeah. 2033 02:55:16,040 --> 02:55:20,559 But when you look into actual liturgical church historians explaining the house churches, 2034 02:55:20,600 --> 02:55:24,159 it's not what you think it is. They have altars, right, they 2035 02:55:24,200 --> 02:55:30,760 have liturgical baptismal funts, their convert their houses that are like basilicas converted into 2036 02:55:30,879 --> 02:55:33,399 churches. So it's not what Protestants think of like this low church thing. 2037 02:55:33,520 --> 02:55:39,680 In fact, liturgy is celebrated in those houses. And even Protestants like where 2038 02:55:39,680 --> 02:55:43,639 did that precedent start though, because like if you're coming off of the upper 2039 02:55:43,760 --> 02:55:48,239 room, you just had everything like land on you, holy spirits on you, 2040 02:55:48,360 --> 02:55:50,079 all the type of stuff. They didn't sit there and like right out 2041 02:55:50,159 --> 02:55:54,639 like yes they did, Yes they did. The apostles went and they set 2042 02:55:54,719 --> 02:56:00,360 up liturgical worship in churches that are like synagogues and temples, so they actual 2043 02:56:00,520 --> 02:56:05,120 history of the church is a combination of temple worship and synagogue worship in liturgical 2044 02:56:05,239 --> 02:56:11,719 fashion, and the apostles directly borrowed that from the synagogue and the temple liturgies, 2045 02:56:11,799 --> 02:56:16,719 and that's unanimous amongst even Protestant history historians of liturgy. So in your 2046 02:56:16,879 --> 02:56:24,120 perspective, what is the most effective form of like evangelizing nations or people's the 2047 02:56:24,159 --> 02:56:26,200 way the Church did it for the way the Church did it for the first 2048 02:56:26,239 --> 02:56:31,280 thousand years and still does it, and it's not the Protestant way. Yeah, 2049 02:56:31,520 --> 02:56:35,760 and so we have different ideas of what Christianity is. We have different 2050 02:56:35,799 --> 02:56:39,840 ideas. We have different ideas of what Christianity is right for us. It's 2051 02:56:39,920 --> 02:56:43,520 not getting them a Bible and getting them into doing their private devotions. It's 2052 02:56:43,719 --> 02:56:48,000 living the liturgical rhythm in life of the church to a chief diosis so that 2053 02:56:48,079 --> 02:56:52,399 they have a good resurrection. Right, two totally different ideas. Anyway, 2054 02:56:52,079 --> 02:56:54,719 I'm not I'm sorry. I just can't keep going. And you're gonna ask 2055 02:56:56,040 --> 02:57:01,159 constantly ask questions. I gotta go. I'm super tired. Anyway. All 2056 02:57:01,200 --> 02:57:03,639 right, thank you guys. Let's do the super chats. We got quite 2057 02:57:03,639 --> 02:57:07,799 a few here, and I'll never get through these if we don't go ahead 2058 02:57:07,799 --> 02:57:11,200 and do it. TJ. One Dollar, please do more music and comedy. 2059 02:57:11,239 --> 02:57:13,440 I love the cringe court. I'm sure that as the inspiration comes, 2060 02:57:13,479 --> 02:57:18,319 there will always be an infinite well of crnch Court, DC wood Working three 2061 02:57:18,360 --> 02:57:20,600 dollars, no question, I'm joined the streams, God blessed. Thank you 2062 02:57:20,639 --> 02:57:24,280 so much, DC Woodworking, Daniel Brent ten dollars. I enjoy your content. 2063 02:57:24,399 --> 02:57:28,760 My family and I, after research in prayer, started attending a local 2064 02:57:28,799 --> 02:57:33,760 Antiochian Orthodox church. We enjoyed the service and it was unapologetic and strong. 2065 02:57:35,440 --> 02:57:39,319 Do you have any advice for somebody converting? Just keep at it, get 2066 02:57:39,319 --> 02:57:43,239 an Orthodox study Bible. A big fan of the Orthodox Study Bible, and 2067 02:57:43,959 --> 02:57:48,360 you know, just keep going to church. Daniel Brent five dollars. Follow 2068 02:57:48,440 --> 02:57:54,239 up on the request for advice. Are there big controversies I should be aware 2069 02:57:54,280 --> 02:58:01,680 of in Eastern Orthodoxy? I would just stay away from the liberal minded clergy 2070 02:58:01,799 --> 02:58:05,559 pushing obvious liberal things. So you do that, you'll be good. Majorian 2071 02:58:05,639 --> 02:58:11,719 twenty dollars. Do evolutionary atheists have a real argument against social Darwinism or eugenics? 2072 02:58:11,840 --> 02:58:15,879 I would say no, I never hear a good one. Maybe there 2073 02:58:16,040 --> 02:58:20,840 is some evolutionary proponent who could go in that direction, but you'll notice that 2074 02:58:20,559 --> 02:58:24,879 that's all bound up with the history of their thesis. All of them across 2075 02:58:24,959 --> 02:58:28,120 the board would decry that. Nowadays at least most of them, not all 2076 02:58:28,200 --> 02:58:33,399 of them, but of them would. And you're saying, is it an 2077 02:58:33,479 --> 02:58:37,719 arbitrary cope? Absolutely itchy cornhole. Ten dollars. Keep up the good work 2078 02:58:37,879 --> 02:58:41,399 of your content. Thank you, Gary twenty five dollars. Related to Jesus 2079 02:58:41,479 --> 02:58:46,959 as the logost is it correct to say that logic and mathematics are part of 2080 02:58:46,079 --> 02:58:50,120 God's uncreated energies? No, so, logic and mathematics are features of the 2081 02:58:50,239 --> 02:58:56,280 created order. They're logical structures that are also created applicable to the created order. 2082 02:58:56,680 --> 02:59:03,440 However, they do have their log which they're based on in the Divine 2083 02:59:03,520 --> 02:59:07,920 mind, which our logi, which our energies. So the answer is kind 2084 02:59:07,920 --> 02:59:13,159 of both. But the number seven is created, but it has a a 2085 02:59:13,319 --> 02:59:18,879 grounding in the divine mind, which is the Divine mind, right, little 2086 02:59:18,920 --> 02:59:22,280 logi of the number seven? Random user name one, two, three, 2087 02:59:22,479 --> 02:59:26,520 four, seven, one five dollars. Can you touch on why polygamy was 2088 02:59:26,559 --> 02:59:31,200 outlawed and why because it wasn't the original intention in the garden of Eden? 2089 02:59:31,239 --> 02:59:35,319 And I think that Christ is returning us back to what was intended for a 2090 02:59:35,440 --> 02:59:41,000 man in the garden. Jay Zuna ten dollars, do you have thoughts on 2091 02:59:41,319 --> 02:59:45,280 churches taking government money to feed and place migrants. Yeah, that's a control 2092 02:59:45,399 --> 02:59:50,200 mechanism for social engineering and for buying off and politically steering control in the churches. 2093 02:59:50,719 --> 02:59:54,680 Is it wrong? Absolutely? P Divine fifty dollars. I love your 2094 02:59:54,719 --> 02:59:56,920 stuff. Thank you for the Q and a thank you so much, Pete 2095 02:59:56,920 --> 03:00:00,680 Divine. He wins the super chat weapon tonight, ward and right, Terry 2096 03:00:00,719 --> 03:00:05,280 seventy seventy five dollars. There's a new papal document affirming the Alexandria document. 2097 03:00:05,360 --> 03:00:11,479 Oh good, yeah, we gotta look at that. Um, I'll have 2098 03:00:11,600 --> 03:00:20,239 to go into I can't pull up links from stream labs obs, so let 2099 03:00:20,319 --> 03:00:22,280 me go over to stream labs and find the original link. Good grief. 2100 03:00:22,319 --> 03:00:26,440 It's hot man, I'm sweating in here. People get me all riled up. 2101 03:00:31,200 --> 03:00:35,319 Where's the super chests, all the super chets. Let's see here? 2102 03:00:35,559 --> 03:00:39,200 Comments creator man, I'll never find this. I want to pull that up 2103 03:00:39,319 --> 03:00:43,959 because that's Jamie. Could you turn the air on? It's super hot in 2104 03:00:43,000 --> 03:00:58,239 here. Oh dripping dude, Jamie, she's in the bed. Oh as 2105 03:00:58,280 --> 03:01:07,680 you can't hear me? Tip history Here we go, Here we go, 2106 03:01:07,959 --> 03:01:15,879 press Vatican publication. Yeah, I mean I think Francis already approved of both 2107 03:01:16,000 --> 03:01:26,399 the Key eighty document and Alexandrew document. Right. Oh man, it's putting 2108 03:01:26,440 --> 03:01:35,120 the whole freaking I don't want all that. I just want that. There 2109 03:01:35,200 --> 03:01:46,719 we go. Let's see what this says. Audience with members of delegation from 2110 03:01:46,760 --> 03:01:56,760 the Ecumenical Patriarchy, piece of Peter and Paula Pope's address. So here's Francis. 2111 03:01:58,719 --> 03:02:07,479 Is it mentioned the Alexandria Document. I wish the good outcome of the 2112 03:02:07,959 --> 03:02:11,319 plinary session of the dialogue at the Alexandria Yeah, okay, so there you 2113 03:02:11,360 --> 03:02:16,680 go. So Francis is, does Francis call out all the admissions and the 2114 03:02:16,760 --> 03:02:22,280 Alexandria document, the basically admitting ninety percent of what Orthodox apologists have been arguing 2115 03:02:22,360 --> 03:02:28,120 for the lass thousand years. No, Francis says he's happy with it. 2116 03:02:30,280 --> 03:02:35,479 Roman Catholics, were you at? Francis affirms the Alexandria Document, which goes 2117 03:02:35,559 --> 03:02:41,280 even further than the Kyaty document. So, Roman Catholics, I don't want 2118 03:02:41,280 --> 03:02:45,840 to hear this nonsense that it's not infallible. It doesn't matter because if it's 2119 03:02:45,840 --> 03:02:50,399 admitting the heresies of the Orthodox schism Church, then Francis is a heretic. 2120 03:02:50,879 --> 03:02:58,879 It's very simple. Doesn't matter what authority Francis puts behind the document. If 2121 03:02:58,920 --> 03:03:03,680 the document is teaching heresy, that would mean that Francis is a faughter of 2122 03:03:03,799 --> 03:03:09,520 heresy, a supporter of heresy. Thank you for that, Terry Chronicle, 2123 03:03:09,639 --> 03:03:16,600 five dollars for your information. The Matt guy makes blasphemous comments about the theat 2124 03:03:16,639 --> 03:03:24,959 Tokos. Uh, let's see if we can pull that up. The Matt 2125 03:03:24,040 --> 03:03:26,799 guy. I guess that's the Protestant guy that we were just talking to. 2126 03:03:28,079 --> 03:03:33,920 Let's see what he says. Man, come on, oh, so on 2127 03:03:35,120 --> 03:03:41,879 here the Matt guy. Let's see what the Matt guy says. Oh so 2128 03:03:43,040 --> 03:03:58,639 he's mad about icons? Do you lick the image? So? Oh yeah? 2129 03:03:58,520 --> 03:04:07,120 Gross? Yeah? So yeah, Well, I mean that's standard Protestant 2130 03:04:07,159 --> 03:04:11,600 fair show gun ten dollars. What's your best argument against Orientals? Go watch 2131 03:04:11,719 --> 03:04:15,959 David's videos and the interviews that we've done. David and I have done many 2132 03:04:16,520 --> 03:04:22,399 interviews on this. They say that the distinctions are caught up anoia. I 2133 03:04:22,479 --> 03:04:24,719 know, yeah, we've covered that. Terry seventy seven, five dollars. 2134 03:04:24,760 --> 03:04:26,840 Where do you think of John Frame? I don't, I don't really, 2135 03:04:26,959 --> 03:04:30,040 I'm not a huge fan of John Frame. I mean, I think that 2136 03:04:30,280 --> 03:04:33,719 Apologizes to the Glory of God has has a couple of interesting chapters that were 2137 03:04:33,760 --> 03:04:43,159 insightful, But I mean, I just don't think that Calvinists can really do 2138 03:04:43,319 --> 03:04:52,399 anything with metaphysics. Right, So you're saying that John Frame can almost seems 2139 03:04:52,479 --> 03:04:58,040 orthodox in some ways because the dedication to ban Till and yeah, I mean 2140 03:04:58,079 --> 03:05:05,159 again there are overlaps there, but there's just severe deficiencies because they just don't 2141 03:05:05,200 --> 03:05:09,799 really get orthodox Trinitarian theology, which would which would really give them a better 2142 03:05:09,920 --> 03:05:15,959 metaphysic Mister Anderson, five dollars would you say that Roman Catholic arguing that Moses, 2143 03:05:16,280 --> 03:05:18,479 what would you say to Roman Caloicy argue that Moses the type of the 2144 03:05:18,520 --> 03:05:22,600 pope? Yeah, I mean this is just a fanciful ice a Jesus, 2145 03:05:22,799 --> 03:05:28,840 because I mean, you could make a connection between Moses and the bishopric. 2146 03:05:28,680 --> 03:05:31,920 But I mean the New Testament, and you know, the majority of the 2147 03:05:31,920 --> 03:05:37,760 apologetics of the Early Church is concerned with Moses the type of Christ. And 2148 03:05:37,079 --> 03:05:43,600 really that obsession with finding types of the papacy is a very late development. 2149 03:05:43,680 --> 03:05:48,639 It doesn't happen until the controversies over the papacy, particularly if you look at 2150 03:05:48,799 --> 03:05:58,040 the history of the after the two rival Eighth councils. So I just read 2151 03:05:58,120 --> 03:06:03,920 this really good article on the from Ortho Christian doctor Ford. Let me give 2152 03:06:03,920 --> 03:06:05,200 you this. This is a really good article. Here. Let me pull 2153 03:06:05,239 --> 03:06:11,040 that up. Yeah, here it is. And the reason I'm bringing this 2154 03:06:11,159 --> 03:06:16,360 up is because this article cites a lot of the sources you've seen me side 2155 03:06:16,360 --> 03:06:26,639 over the years, the Dragas article, and he goes into he goes into 2156 03:06:26,719 --> 03:06:35,799 the relationship of these kinds of disputes after Rome's acceptance of the Phocean Council. 2157 03:06:37,559 --> 03:06:41,760 So for two hundred years Rome accepted the Phocian Council, the Eighth Council, 2158 03:06:41,879 --> 03:06:46,200 and then later on after the Gregorian reforms. Key element there, key period. 2159 03:06:46,600 --> 03:06:50,079 Oh, now we're going to go back and say we accept the Ignation 2160 03:06:50,200 --> 03:06:54,120 Council, right, because that has the so called papal claims. And I 2161 03:06:54,159 --> 03:07:01,479 wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't connected with that period of the forger. So 2162 03:07:03,079 --> 03:07:07,079 there's that article by doctor Ford that I recommend on that. So, in 2163 03:07:07,120 --> 03:07:11,079 other words, after this period of the Rome reversing its stance on the Eighth 2164 03:07:11,159 --> 03:07:18,319 Council and accepting the ignation eighth Council instead of the Eighth Council. Then they 2165 03:07:18,399 --> 03:07:24,040 started to say and need more and more vindications for the new role of the 2166 03:07:24,120 --> 03:07:28,280 Bishop of Rome. So oh well, then he's got to be the new 2167 03:07:28,319 --> 03:07:33,959 Moses, right, And how can we fish through the scriptures to find Moses 2168 03:07:33,040 --> 03:07:37,040 is a type of the pope? Do we find that in the Patristic era? 2169 03:07:37,239 --> 03:07:43,040 Not really no, I mean maybe, as Cyprian says, you could 2170 03:07:43,120 --> 03:07:48,920 find these Old Testament figures as archetypes of all of the bishops, right Peter, 2171 03:07:50,120 --> 03:07:54,319 as the every bishop is Peter, is what Cyprian and many church fathers 2172 03:07:54,360 --> 03:08:01,079 say. Augustine says that, right, Terry seventies axcum Golden Arm seventy five 2173 03:08:01,120 --> 03:08:01,959 dollars. Well, thank you so much. Are you still working on a 2174 03:08:03,000 --> 03:08:07,200 book on Catholicism? Well sort of. I mean all of the essays that 2175 03:08:07,360 --> 03:08:13,879 I did got put into the Red Book. So if you want the version 2176 03:08:13,920 --> 03:08:16,840 of that, the immediate version of that, this is six hundred pages, 2177 03:08:18,799 --> 03:08:24,200 six hundred sixty pages and has about two or three hundred pages dealing with Roman 2178 03:08:24,200 --> 03:08:28,239 Catholicism. So you could get the Red Book. But the Red Book was 2179 03:08:28,319 --> 03:08:31,399 not made by me. It was all my essays that's funny put together. 2180 03:08:31,559 --> 03:08:35,600 So it's not technically my book, even though it is my book, but 2181 03:08:35,680 --> 03:08:41,159 it's it's not ideal. It's just kind of slammed together a bunch of essays. 2182 03:08:41,639 --> 03:08:45,680 So it really needs to be redone and put into a better format. 2183 03:08:45,879 --> 03:08:48,479 And you know, I've learned a lot since I wrote a lot of those 2184 03:08:48,600 --> 03:08:52,040 essays. I think most of the essays hold up, but you know, 2185 03:08:52,079 --> 03:08:58,639 I've gotten a lot deeper into the energy stuff and you know later synods, 2186 03:08:58,719 --> 03:09:01,000 the Palm White synods and so forth. So I've learned a lot since a 2187 03:09:01,040 --> 03:09:05,319 lot of those essays, So they would have to be severely updated. But 2188 03:09:05,600 --> 03:09:09,600 maybe one day, Terry seventy seven one dollars, I bought Ultimate Proof of 2189 03:09:09,680 --> 03:09:11,559 God and Experience of God, Volume one of Stunnylois. Thank you for the 2190 03:09:11,600 --> 03:09:16,159 subgestion suggestions. I was a presubsisition reformed person, had the Orthodoxy. Thank 2191 03:09:16,200 --> 03:09:22,319 every work. Yeah, absolutely, yeah. You will definitely enjoy Stunnyloy's Orthodox 2192 03:09:22,440 --> 03:09:28,639 dogmatics um. And you will notice areas where Dan til overlap of Orthodox the 2193 03:09:28,680 --> 03:09:33,280 ann You'll notice the deficiencies in the blind spots where you know, Ventel wasn't 2194 03:09:33,360 --> 03:09:35,719 able to get get there. All right, thank you guys so much. 2195 03:09:35,840 --> 03:09:41,680 And tomorrow is gonna be fun because we will be uh doing all of Indiana 2196 03:09:41,799 --> 03:09:48,120 Jones, not just the new one. We're gonna do them all. So 2197 03:09:48,440 --> 03:09:52,799 we had a lot of fun watching all the na Jones and we will have 2198 03:09:52,840 --> 03:09:54,200 a good podcast. It'll be fun on that after we go see the new 2199 03:09:54,239 --> 03:09:58,280 one. Also, remember head over to chalk dot com choq dot com use 2200 03:09:58,319 --> 03:10:03,719 the promo cup j fifty to fifty percent off toncat Alle boosting tessastone, And 2201 03:10:03,799 --> 03:10:09,719 as Rachel pointed out, women also can take the toncat Alle. 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So use a Promaco Jay five zero to get fifty percent 2211 03:10:56,399 --> 03:11:01,520 off. And Chalk is an excellent red pill based company and they've been our 2212 03:11:01,559 --> 03:11:05,000 supporter, our sponsor for two years now. So I don't know where to