1 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:35,920 What Up? What Up? What Up? For everybody? Welcome to another 2 00:00:35,960 --> 00:00:39,799 episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where you get to ask me Paul 3 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:44,240 Abernathy anything you want about the National Electrical Code or all things electrically related. 4 00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,520 All you gotta do is go over to Paul Abernathy dot com, put your 5 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:52,640 last name in, first name in question, click the submit button and boom. 6 00:00:52,679 --> 00:00:55,840 You submit your question to me and it's selected. I will answer in 7 00:00:55,840 --> 00:01:03,719 an upcoming podcast or in an email. So today's episode is sponsored by Electrician 8 00:01:03,840 --> 00:01:11,239 Pride. 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Just let us know 18 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:52,159 and we will see if we can't make it happen for you. All right, 19 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:57,439 Today's question on Let's Ask Paul podcast. I guess this individual watched my 20 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:01,920 episode of Unit eleven in the Fast Tracks program. It was Fast Tracks Live. 21 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:07,079 It was just previously Wednesday, and they asked me to explain a little 22 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,960 bit because I did put a notice on there explaining there was a subtle difference 23 00:02:10,479 --> 00:02:15,680 between twenty twenty and twenty twenty three when it comes to the neutral and when 24 00:02:15,719 --> 00:02:19,280 we're doing a service or feeder calculation, and they asked me to elaborate on 25 00:02:19,319 --> 00:02:23,800 that in a podcast, so I figured I would elaborate a little bit on 26 00:02:23,879 --> 00:02:28,759 that for those that may be confused while I did the video episode. And 27 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:35,280 my understanding is that the intent of what the code is for calculating the neutral 28 00:02:35,439 --> 00:02:38,520 versus the way I explained it was based on the twenty twenty three, even 29 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:42,479 though all the information originally was from the twenty twenty It's kind of how I've 30 00:02:42,479 --> 00:02:46,159 always taught it when it comes to calculating the neutral. But I am very 31 00:02:46,159 --> 00:02:50,039 conscious of a fact that you're probably not going to have it come up on 32 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,159 an exam, But I wanted to explain the differences between a subtle change and 33 00:02:55,199 --> 00:03:00,400 how important a subtle change of one word really can make a difference, especially 34 00:03:00,439 --> 00:03:05,039 if you're not just preparing for code, but getting into a code debate or 35 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,759 or maybe even having to argue with an inspector on a site. It's one 36 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:14,680 word can really change the difference of the meaning of something. So, for 37 00:03:14,719 --> 00:03:17,639 example, what we're talking about is in the National Electrical Code, when you're 38 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:23,000 doing a feeder or service load calculation and now you have to calculate the neutral 39 00:03:23,039 --> 00:03:27,240 loads, you're going to use the benefits of two twenty dot sixty one A 40 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:32,520 and B and even C, which is to prohibited reductions and when you can't 41 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:36,840 reduce the size of the neutral But the big issue that we're going to be 42 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:43,280 talking about is a subtle change that took place between the twenty twenty and the 43 00:03:43,319 --> 00:03:49,240 twenty twenty three edition of the National Electrical Code. Now the change is it 44 00:03:49,319 --> 00:03:54,159 went from or to and right, and that is huge in the world of 45 00:03:54,199 --> 00:04:00,520 code. Right because or means you do this or that right and means you 46 00:04:00,520 --> 00:04:05,840 can apply or do this and you do that and so that's a subtle change. 47 00:04:06,120 --> 00:04:11,000 So let me paint you this mental picture. So you're doing a neutral 48 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,840 calculation. You're following all the steps to calculate the neutral, which we cover 49 00:04:14,879 --> 00:04:16,759 in our videos. If you haven't watched our videos, make sure you check 50 00:04:16,759 --> 00:04:23,519 our videos out on fasttrackstube dot com. That's our exclusive platform. You can 51 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,560 do monthly subscription or annual subscription, whatever you want, get what you need 52 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:30,680 and move on. If that's what you want, We've got both options. 53 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:38,680 So basically, what we're talking about is when you're applying the seventy percent additional 54 00:04:38,879 --> 00:04:42,920 permitted reduction. So let's say doing the neutral. So if you know what 55 00:04:42,959 --> 00:04:46,120 your range is, you know what your dryer is and use size for the 56 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:49,279 ungrounded conductors the hots, and you know what your VA is for range. 57 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:53,759 Okay, we'll just use an example. Say it's just a normal range. 58 00:04:53,879 --> 00:04:58,959 Let's say it's you're using eight kW, right, So anything that's not over 59 00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:01,240 twelve KWF it's a single range in your range, you're going to be using 60 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,680 eight kW. So if you take that eight thousand, that's what you would 61 00:05:04,759 --> 00:05:09,959 use in your service or feeder load calculation for your ungrounded hot conductors. But 62 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:14,800 when it comes to the neutral you're allowed to have a permitted reduction under two 63 00:05:14,879 --> 00:05:17,879 twenty sixty one B, right, and so if you look at B one, 64 00:05:18,160 --> 00:05:25,279 we're able to reduce that by B tells me the items in B one, 65 00:05:25,319 --> 00:05:28,800 which example would be a range electric range. That's what we're talking about. 66 00:05:29,079 --> 00:05:32,360 That I can reduce that value by seventy percent, okay, or I 67 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,800 can have a seventy percent demand factor applied to it. The easiest way to 68 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:42,480 say that, so I'm gonna knock off thirty percent basically, so that eight 69 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:47,879 thousand times point seven zero is five thousand and six hundred. Okay, you 70 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:53,959 still say that eight thousand, okay, eight thousand. Damn it, eight 71 00:05:54,120 --> 00:05:59,680 thousand minus thirty percent is still five thousand, six hundred, okay. So 72 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,279 however you want to swing it. It allows me to have it reduction the 73 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:08,199 seventy percent demand applied, okay. So that's five thousand, six hundred. 74 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:13,199 Well that's a neutral contribution. Okay. That's when you're using two twenty dot 75 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:18,199 sixty one B and B one. So the question became is since you're doing 76 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:21,839 that, and if you're doing the standard method, this is gonna you're able 77 00:06:21,839 --> 00:06:29,079 to apply this, right, So if I'm applying these demands, okay, 78 00:06:29,160 --> 00:06:32,920 and I'm going to apply this seventy percent demand, the next question is what 79 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:41,839 happens if my total neutral unbalanced maximum unbalanced calculated load that I calculate for the 80 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:46,160 neutral What happens if it's over two hundred? Can I now also take an 81 00:06:46,199 --> 00:06:50,560 additional reduction into twenty dot sixty one B two And that's and it says here 82 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:56,639 that that portion of the unbalanced load in excess of two hundred where the feeder 83 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:02,079 or service is applied by a h three wire DC or single phase AC system, 84 00:07:02,120 --> 00:07:05,480 then blah blah blah, we'll just keep it at AC. So it 85 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,079 seems to imply that I can apply if it was two hundred and seventy nine 86 00:07:10,120 --> 00:07:14,279 amps of neutral load, then the first two hundred you have to take, 87 00:07:14,319 --> 00:07:16,839 and then the seventy nine you get to multiply by seventy percent. I mean, 88 00:07:16,839 --> 00:07:21,560 that's basically what two twenty dots sixty one B is telling us, right, 89 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:26,560 But the difference is in the twenty twenty edition of the Nationalctic Coal Code. 90 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,560 If you look at the charging statement of two twenty dot sixty one B, 91 00:07:30,439 --> 00:07:34,600 it says a service or feeder supplying the following loads shall be permitted to 92 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:42,480 have an additional demand factor of seventy percent applied to the amount in two twenty 93 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:47,279 dot sixty one B one or portion of the amount in two twenty dot sixty 94 00:07:47,319 --> 00:07:54,279 one B two determined by the following basic calculations. So the sheer statement here 95 00:07:55,360 --> 00:08:01,160 and again we can understand that that we know that this discussions. That was 96 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,360 never the intent to make you have to pick one or the other. And 97 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,319 in the twenty twenty three that's cleared up. That ore is now an and 98 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:13,240 okay, so I could apply both to the neutral right in the twenty twenty 99 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:18,600 three, but not in the twenty twenty because of that ore. Now, 100 00:08:18,680 --> 00:08:20,560 most people that teach it, we will try to teach it in a way 101 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:22,439 we're going to like, well, well, we know that that's what they 102 00:08:22,480 --> 00:08:26,759 really meant, but the ore is there and you can't ignore it. So, 103 00:08:28,319 --> 00:08:31,279 you know, for an exam, you could run into a question where 104 00:08:31,279 --> 00:08:37,679 they focus in on a question like this and they're really really trying to say, 105 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:41,600 well, you applied the seventy percent to the range and the dryer whatnot, 106 00:08:41,279 --> 00:08:46,480 So now you can't use two twenty sixty one B two right, So, 107 00:08:46,879 --> 00:08:50,679 and if that's the case, then that's correct. You could only use 108 00:08:50,720 --> 00:08:56,120 the one. And since you're using the seventy percent for the range for the 109 00:08:56,159 --> 00:09:05,519 neutral and seventy percent of the the VA for the dryer in the first step 110 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:09,399 for the neutral, then you can't use the T twenty that sixty one B 111 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:11,799 two. Now, the thing about that is usually this is only going to 112 00:09:11,799 --> 00:09:18,080 come into play if you have over two hundred amps of neutral load anyway, 113 00:09:18,240 --> 00:09:22,039 So in most residential applications that's not going to be an issue, but in 114 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,519 a multi family building it most certainly could be an issue. So that's why 115 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:33,039 we kind of cover it in our unit eleven in our fast Tracts program is 116 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:37,480 because again that unit deals with multifamily and so now when I try to teach 117 00:09:37,519 --> 00:09:43,279 it, I try to get people understanding that reality it should be this one 118 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,399 and you could use both. But that again, if you want to be 119 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:52,360 a purist in it, that ore is very important. So it should probably 120 00:09:52,399 --> 00:09:56,600 tell you that it's different for the exam prep, which in a real world, 121 00:09:56,840 --> 00:10:00,240 as you can see in the twenty twenty three, we're allowed to use 122 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:05,960 both. And that's was my belief, is what the intent was but again 123 00:10:05,159 --> 00:10:11,360 the powerfulness of words the ore makes it so that you can't. It's either 124 00:10:11,440 --> 00:10:18,519 this or that, y all right anyway, So that's why I had to 125 00:10:18,519 --> 00:10:22,360 put the little disclaimer on it to you know, to make it clear to 126 00:10:22,399 --> 00:10:26,120 everybody that, all right there, if you're taking an exam and it just 127 00:10:26,159 --> 00:10:31,559 happened to come into play right for the twenty twenty edition and in the twenty 128 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,200 seventeen edition, that it's this or that. So if you're already gonna apply 129 00:10:35,279 --> 00:10:39,320 to seventy percent to the range and the dryer and all that, then then 130 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:46,200 you can't. And if the maximum unbalanced load is over two hundred, you 131 00:10:46,279 --> 00:10:50,240 can't apply to twenty dot sixty one B two because you've already applied to twenty 132 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:54,799 dot sixty one B one. That's what I was saying. And again that's 133 00:10:54,960 --> 00:10:58,879 you know, that's twenty twenty twenty seventeen. In the twenty twenty three it's 134 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,440 worded differently, and so you know it's important for me. I'll read you 135 00:11:03,519 --> 00:11:07,960 how it's you know, how it's done in that edition, so that you 136 00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:13,320 can see the difference of how it's verbaged. Uh. It says in the 137 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,720 twenty twenty three edition into twenty that sixty one B. It says a service 138 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:24,080 or feeder supplying the following loads shall be permitted to have an additional demand factor 139 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,399 of seventy percent applied to the amount in two twenty that sixty one B one, 140 00:11:26,639 --> 00:11:33,279 and a portion of the amount into twenty that sixty one B two. 141 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:37,519 So you get to still apply your seventy percent for your neutral calculation to your 142 00:11:37,600 --> 00:11:41,759 ranges and dryers and whatnot as normal and the standard method. But if your 143 00:11:43,039 --> 00:11:48,440 maximum unbalanced load is over two hundred, you can also to that portion that 144 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,639 is over two hundred, you can apply the seventy percent to that as well. 145 00:11:52,080 --> 00:11:56,200 So that's why it's important to have that and in there. And you 146 00:11:56,200 --> 00:12:00,000 know, sometimes people forget these subtle changes and it can make a difference. 147 00:12:00,279 --> 00:12:03,840 Obviously, it's going to make a difference in the neutral calculation. If you 148 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,200 happen to have a neutral value that is over two hundred AMP and you're doing 149 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,200 a multi family building, it's going to affect the size of the neutral conductor, 150 00:12:13,159 --> 00:12:16,519 remembering it has to handle the maximum um violence load. It means you 151 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:18,279 have to do a calculation, you have to know what you're doing. But 152 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,799 if you do get a neutral amount that's over two hundred. Then that amount 153 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,480 that's over two hundred. Even though you've already applied the seventy percent, let's 154 00:12:26,480 --> 00:12:30,000 say, to the ranges and dryers for the neutral, you can very much 155 00:12:30,039 --> 00:12:35,159 still apply the seventy percent to that value that's over two hundred in B two 156 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,200 of to twenty sixty one. Okay, So hopefully that you know, that 157 00:12:39,279 --> 00:12:45,120 kind of clears that up a little bit for folks, and probably not something 158 00:12:45,159 --> 00:12:50,720 that you're going to see on an exam. But and I teach it the 159 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:52,200 way it is in the twenty twenty three, and I have for a long 160 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:56,919 time because I believe that's what the intent was, and it made sense that 161 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,320 it was clarified in the twenty twenty three. And I get it. It's 162 00:13:01,399 --> 00:13:03,240 people are going to say, and I've got my haters out there that it'll 163 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,960 say, well, that's not what it says in the twenty twenty I get 164 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:09,039 it. But you know, you teach whoever you want, and I'll teach 165 00:13:09,039 --> 00:13:11,000 you who I ever want. You worry about you, I worry about me. 166 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,360 You don't have to like me. I don't care whether you follow me. 167 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:16,360 Listen, whatever you can bad mouth me. I don't care. I 168 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:20,159 teach what I think is best for the students and moving forward once you get 169 00:13:20,159 --> 00:13:22,279 that license, because the chances are that is never going to be on an 170 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:28,919 exam. But once you move out into the real world and you start experiencing 171 00:13:28,000 --> 00:13:33,480 your states change to the twenty twenty three and things like that. And I 172 00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:37,559 knew this was coming all the way back in the development cycle, back when 173 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:39,519 the twenty twenty was out and we started working on the twenty twenty three. 174 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:45,080 I kind of knew what was coming, so I started shifting my how I 175 00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:48,679 taught it to be ready for the twenty twenty three and how it really was 176 00:13:48,759 --> 00:13:52,600 intended to be and it is. This is intended that you could apply both 177 00:13:52,639 --> 00:13:56,639 of those. Okay, So that's kind of why I didn't the way I 178 00:13:56,679 --> 00:14:01,240 do. But again, I don't work to the of the drum of anybody 179 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:03,000 else. I do my own thing, and you can like it or hate 180 00:14:03,039 --> 00:14:05,720 it or whatever. I don't really care. You won't change me, so 181 00:14:05,759 --> 00:14:09,360 it doesn't matter. You can say what do you want to you're blue in 182 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:16,480 the face. It doesn't bother me. But anyway, that was that one, 183 00:14:16,519 --> 00:14:18,879 and I hopefully that answered the question to the gentleman that was asking or 184 00:14:18,919 --> 00:14:24,600 sent the email just to subtle change in that. Now we have gone back 185 00:14:26,399 --> 00:14:31,840 and readjusted our fast tracks program to reflect that because I don't want to. 186 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,960 I didn't want to impose my own will on everybody with this, especially since 187 00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:41,639 it's exam prep and again it's not going to make a big difference in anything, 188 00:14:43,519 --> 00:14:48,120 But it is important that I realized that twenty twenty to twenty twenty three, 189 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:52,879 while I was trying to push people onto that that reality is, I 190 00:14:52,919 --> 00:14:54,799 figured, you know, I better go on and explain it the way it's 191 00:14:54,799 --> 00:15:01,159 written in twenty twenty and let that or and be a focal point, and 192 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:05,200 then in the twenty twenty three I will, you know, focus. That's 193 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:11,639 just another testament, folks, that subtleness of a single word can make all 194 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:16,600 the difference in a calculation. It can be the difference from a one ot 195 00:15:16,639 --> 00:15:18,639 to a two ought. It could be a difference from a three ought to 196 00:15:18,679 --> 00:15:22,440 a four ought. In conductor sizing. All those type of things can be 197 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:28,360 radically changed by something as simple as an and or an ore. Okay, 198 00:15:28,799 --> 00:15:31,279 all right, folks, hopefully got something out of that, hopefully answered the 199 00:15:31,360 --> 00:15:33,039 question the gentleman that ask about it, we have adjusted for that. And 200 00:15:33,039 --> 00:15:37,399 again I apologize for imposing my own will, but I'm trying to train you 201 00:15:37,519 --> 00:15:43,440 for what the intent was. But I do understand for exam prep it's important 202 00:15:43,440 --> 00:15:46,519 for twenty twenty and twenty seventeen folks that when you're dealing with the neutral and 203 00:15:46,600 --> 00:15:52,519 you're applying it, that the ads and the ores do make a huge, 204 00:15:52,799 --> 00:15:58,240 huge difference. Now, I will also remind you that if you're not going 205 00:15:58,279 --> 00:16:03,519 to be utilizing the seventy percent, for example, in the standard method for 206 00:16:03,759 --> 00:16:10,679 the ranges and dryers, and you're not utilizing that, and it may be 207 00:16:10,879 --> 00:16:14,559 a more of a benefit to ignore it and take the neutral for those as 208 00:16:14,559 --> 00:16:19,360 one hundred percent and then applying to twenty dot sixty one B two for the 209 00:16:19,559 --> 00:16:22,960 overall and balanced neutral, it may end up working out better for you. 210 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,960 So when it says or in the twenty twenty to twenty seventeen you can do 211 00:16:26,039 --> 00:16:30,000 this one. And remember, the seventy percent reduction is permitted, it's not 212 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:34,080 a requirement. You're permitted to reduce the range and the dryer, uh, 213 00:16:34,279 --> 00:16:40,080 the seventy percent reduction, right, but it's not it's not mandatory. So 214 00:16:40,320 --> 00:16:44,200 in the end of the day. You know you, it's up to you 215 00:16:44,279 --> 00:16:47,799 how you want to apply it. If you're in the field on exam, 216 00:16:47,879 --> 00:16:51,080 most all cases they're going to apply the seventy percent to the range and dryer 217 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:53,799 when you're doing the neutral that type of scenario, right, But if they 218 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,639 didn't, then you most certainly can apply to twenty dot sixty one B two 219 00:16:57,679 --> 00:17:03,679 to your overall mac some unbalanced load and it would it would be fine. 220 00:17:03,879 --> 00:17:06,799 Okay, all right, hopefully got something out of that, folks. Until 221 00:17:06,799 --> 00:17:08,519 next time, Stay safe, God bless, and again, as always, 222 00:17:08,519 --> 00:17:11,839 if you got questions you want to submit them, just go to Paul Abernathy 223 00:17:11,839 --> 00:17:15,240 dot com submit them to the portal. I'll do my best to answer your 224 00:17:15,359 --> 00:17:17,960 questions. The is best I can. Till next time, Stay safe, 225 00:17:18,039 --> 00:17:41,920 God bless,