What Welcome to another episode of Let's Ask Paul, the podcast where you get
to ask me Paul Abernathy anything you want about the National Electric Code where all
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it for you in due time. All right, Well, welcome again to
the podcast. Today's episode, we're gonna be looking at a couple questions.
The first one is dealing with electric clothes dryers and some confusion that a gentleman
has based on other educators publications, and that can happen. It can get
confusing. Again, if you're in social media, people will post something maybe
from the one educator, then they'll post something from another, and if they're
wrong, then that will propagate incorrect information. And that's what's starting to take
our learning process downhill. And so again, not that I'm to say I'm
the only source for education. That is not what Paul is saying. Okay,
well, that is not what Paul is saying. Paul's just saying when
I put something out there, typically I'm only putting it out there because I'm
knowledgeab about the subject and I want to make sure that I'm propagating positive,
accurate information to the consumer. That's what oppen my members, my followers,
people that learn from us, like me or hate me, maybe just personally
you don't like me, and that's fine too, okay. And never got
into this industry to make friends, Okay, I'm just an educator. So
and I'm a master electrician overall, that's the most that I'm proud of.
Don't care about anything else. Okay, let's go on and look at this
question. So this question was submitted and it says, Hey, Paul,
I've been listening to your podcast while preparing to take my Washington Administrator's test.
It's based on the twenty twenty NEC. Could you please explain dryers in a
little more detail for me, I am getting confused on when to follow the
name plate if they are under five kW, instead of bumping them up to
five kW as a minimum for the dwelling calculation. My understanding of two twenty
fifty four is that I should use the name plate rating or five kW,
whichever is higher, for calculating the dryer no matter what. But many of
the resources I found, including the ray Holder calculation exam prep do it with
the nameplate no matter what. Then I go through other exam prep books like
the one from Tom Henry, and they say five kW or the nameplate,
whichever's largest, like I interpret the twenty twenty codebook. Am I overthinking it?
Or am I missing something important? Okay? Are you ready? You're
missing something important? Why the hell aren't you studying with my program instead of
those people's programs, because in my program, I'm going to guarantee you that
you get it right. Okay. So anyway, that's your first mistake.
You're using somebody else. Why are you using somebody else? We have the
best NEC learning programs, in my opinion, in the country, and from
somebody that has served on multiple code making panels and has been the top gun
by one of the other leading educators in the country, trusts me. I'm
going to spend the time teaching you right in our program, but you also
get to come to Wednesday nights to time every two weeks and you can bring
any question you want to me live right on our bi weekly sessions. And
where else are you going to get that? Okay? So all that money
you've invested in those other resources, you could have gotten our program in Boom,
you'd have had that answer by now, okay, But we're going to
answer your question. Okay. So first thing I'm going to assume what's happening
in these other publications. In all fairness, great educators both are is that
I think when you're looking at it, you're possibly seeing where one is talking
about the optional method for calculating electric clothed dryers, and one is talking about
the traditional standard we call it standard method or part three method, and the
optional method is part four. I think it's what's happening is you're getting the
two confused, and most exams, if you're preparing for an exam, most
of exams are going to be based on the standard method, which is part
three of article two twenty unless they tell you that to use the optional which
is part four in the standard method. What you're going to be at two
twenty fifty four, I'm going to read you what it says verbal datum.
It says the load for household electric clothed dryers in a dwelling unit shall be
either five thousand watts which is synonymous also means voltampires for this case in this
calculation, or the name plate rating, whichever is larger for each dryer served.
Okay, so what that means is if the dryer, if you're doing
a standard calculation, and that's what you're gonna use unless they state otherwise.
They have to tell you to use the optional if they want you to just
use the name plate. So if you're if it's a standard calculation, Part
three calculation, then you're going to use five thousand or the name plate,
whichever is greater, and that's it. So if the the closed dryer is
forty five hundred watts, then you're going to use five thousand. Okay,
if the closed dryer is fifty five hundred watts, then you're going to use
fifty five hundred because the name plate would be greater than the five thousand.
So that is if you're using the standard method. Now when it comes to
the optional method, that's where you can we'll talk just for a dwelling unit,
just a single dwelling unit application, although applies everywhere else as well.
If you look at it under two twenty dot eighty two and you look under
B for general loads, then you're gonna notice that B three says the name
plate rating of the following in subdivision C says closed dryers that are not connected
to the laundry circuit specified in two twenty dot eighty two B two, and
that was the twenty amp laundry circuit. So the closed dryer typically would not
unless maybe it's gas and it's just simply powered into that twenty amp circuit to
supply. But it's gas. As far as hot operas so that's just an
example of when that would take place. So it's just a normal h closed
dryer electric closed dryer, then you're going to just use the name plate.
So if it was forty five hundred, you're going to use forty five hundred,
If it's fifty five hundred, you're going to use fifty five hundred.
So that is when you're using two twenty dot eighty two, and that is
under part four, and that's when you're using the optional method. So I
think when you're probably looking at these two educators, one of them, you're
probably in the area where it's talking about the standard method, which is typically
on an exam unless they state otherwise that's the default, and then the other
one is talking about the optional method, and under the optional method, that
is where you typically are going to take the nameplate. Hopefully that clears that
question up for you again. As always, thanks for sending in your question.
I'm sure there's other people that maybe I wondered about that question as well
in the past, so I'm glad we could clear that up for you again.
As always, if you have a question to this and you want to
follow up, all you got to do is go to Paul Abernathy dot com.
Put in your name, put in your email address, and then let
me know what episode you're following up. Give me a brief summary of your
question pertaining to the episode, and then it can ask your question. Be
very clear which code cycle you're working with as well, because it does change
from cycle to cycle, and we want to make sure that we're always giving
you the most accurate information that we can based on the current NEC in your
area. All right, all right, let's move on to another question.
All right, folks, so let's see the next question we have, and
this is a pretty long one, so bear with me here. So this
one says, sir big fan, the rule in question is two thirty seventy
one. A link below is a mic Holt discussion for your reference. Okay,
it says. The product in question is below. It's an eaten two
hundred ant panel with two one hundred ant breakers. I included the link to
the product. So what he did was is I've already looked at the picture.
So this is one of those double stack meters that have the two meters
on the left and on the right has the two separate breakers. Okay,
which outside these would be you know, these would be the disconnects and the
service disconnect right here, right, so they're right there, all in that
meter socket, all in the same enclosure there. Okay. So you have
a meter, a meter on the left, and then on the right you
have separate vertical channel and it has a breaker for the top meter and a
breaker for the bottom meter. So those are your service disconnects right there,
and then everything out of that is the feeder. So that's what he showed.
Okay. So that is a an eaten two hundred ant panel with two
separate compartments with one hundred ant breaker in each compartment. That's what image that
he gave me. Okay, So that's the kind of painting you that mental
picture of what he's got going on. Okay, it's says, Okay,
the California Electric Code section is in the link below, and I'm not going
to go look that up because basically they're really pretty much referring to the NEC
so I'm not going to Obviously this is a podcast, so we don't need
to go there. He says. I'm a building department's supervisor for the jurisdiction
in Southern California. One of my inspectors saw this rule in the NEC handbook
and brought it to my attention after he did an inspection after looking at the
Mike Coult video. I would like your thoughts and commentary. Okay, if
this is accurate that the two disconnects cannot be in the same vertical segment of
the panel to protect the installer or maintainer from live parts, then we would
like to put out an advisory to our contractors to ensure their panels are compliant.
Okay, this is going to be important to understand terminology because he says
vertical segment and the picture that he expressed me wasn't a we say, the
vertical section we were it wasn't It wasn't a switchboard, Okay. It was
just a meter what do we call a meter center with two meters and on
the right side it had a breaker in the top and a break in about
a one breaker for each meter right and it was to the right, so
that meant that you had the bus for the meter was on the left and
then the bus continued off of that over to the right section, and that
meant you had a breaker at the top and a breaker in the bottom.
Right Now, there is also a barrier between the top and the bottom breaker.
Okay, so it's two separate compartments. But that is not the vertical
segment that he's referring to. That is in the code. Okay, now
let me go on and read a little more. Here it says we looked
at the paneling question and this is the case in most panels the dissindex are
in the same vertical section. This is a big deal for the manufacturer and
our customers who will be removing and replacing panels. The key verbage is vertical
section and separate compartment. Your answer, you answered one of my questions before,
and relatively quickly, I might add, so that is much appreciated.
I look forward to your commentary. And of course he gave me some links
over to the various references that he's talking about. Okay, so first thing
I'm going to do really quickly is I'm going to change my code cycle to
twenty twenty to answer your question. And we're going to go and you should
too if you're following along so I can read it. We're going to two
thirty dot seventy one. Now, two thirty dot seventy one is specific to
the maximum number of disconnects, and it's two thirty seventy one is broken into
an A and a B in the twenty twenty edition of the National Electrical Code.
Now I always tell people, make sure you tell me the code cycle
in but he told me it's California. So I know that they're now testing
on the twenty twenty. So let's we have to make sure that we stick
in the right code cycle. So I'm gonna go with the twenty twenty.
So now let's read what he's talking about. So the first thing we're talking
about is the two to six service disconnects are permitted in each service permitted by
two thirty two. All right, So what you've got is that what changed
for the twenty twenty is that you could not have the two to six disconnects
in a single cabinet. You still can do that with a feeder because you
could turn the feeder off upstream and isolate the downstream cabinet. Okay, Now,
this was very common in data centers. This is very common in industrial
applications where they hit one big cabinet and have up to six of these breakers
in there. Okay, it's very common for that to take place. Well,
in the twenty twenty code, you no longer can do that. You
can't have one cabinet. Uh. And for people out there, let me
paint you this mental picture. This would be like hitting a main lug only
panel and then having the service disc next being the up to the six individual
breakers that are in there. And that was previously to twenty twenty that was
that was acceptable, okay, So in this case in the twenty twenty that
is not acceptable. That was removed. That was changed for the twenty twenty
edition. So here's what it says now for the twenty twenty it says two
to six service disc next shall be permitted for each service permitted by two thirty
dot two, or for each set of service entrance conductors permitted by two thirty
dot forty exception one, three, four or five. The two to six
service disc NICKT means shall be permitted to consist of a combination of any of
the following. So it used to be allowed in here again to have one
single cabinet, And think of the cabinet is what you put a panel board
into, that's what you mount your breakers on. Okay. To paint you
that mental picture, you used to be able to have up to six breakers
in there and that would serve as your service and that would be your two
to six service disconnect application. Well, that's no longer allowed, so here's
your options. Number one is I can have separate enclosures with the main service
disconnecting means in each enclosure. So I could have a six separate up to
six separate disconnects that are rated for uses service equipment and they have a breaker
in there, and I could have up to six of them obviously grouped kind
of we can't forget to thirty seventy two, which is the grouping requirement.
So they're all grouped in the right same location, right, that's acceptable.
The second option was that I can have panel boards with the main service disconnecting
means in each panel board enclosure. So I can have six up to six
separate panels grouped in the same location. And obviously i'd have separate individual circuit
breakers after the service disconnecting means. Right, just because it's a panel board,
I can have that still can have six of them group to one location,
that's okay. Item number three says switchboards where there are only one service
disconnecting in each separate vertical section where there are barriers separating each vertical section.
So this only applies to switchboards. And I think the question that the gentleman
is asking when he brings up vertical section and all this, that he's confusing
switchboards with what he has, which what he has is a meter center.
Ok. It just says a two meter center or a two meter stack,
that type of thing. So I think that's where his confusion is for that.
Now, a switchboard has different separate vertical sections in it, and you
could have a separate service disconnect in each one of those vertical sections up to
six and you would be okay, and it's all inherent in the design of
the switchboard. So that's acceptable to do that. And then item number four
is the more pertinent to this one here for the gentlemen, it says service
disconnects in switch gear or the power of that or now or metering centers,
where each disconnect is located in a separate compartment. So what I believe is
in this product that on the right side there is a barrier, and what's
extending into each barrier is the bus from where the meter is located. It's
because it's all built that way, and then so the top breaker is the
service disconnect in the top one is for the top meter and the one in
the bottom is for the underneath that is for the bottom meter. So they're
in separate quote compartments, right, and if that's the case, then they
comply with two thirty seventy one B four. Okay, So I think that's
what's going on. Now. What's interesting about this is that it obviously generated
a pretty neat discussion, and what happens is you can actually go over and
look at the change in the twenty twenty three edition of the NEEC and you
will see that they expanded that even more for simplicity and trying to get the
message across. So that's definitely was explained a little bit better in the twenty
twenty three edition of the NEEC. So I hope that answers that question for
you, and thank you for the question. Again. Always, if people
have follow ups to this question, you know what you can do. You
can always go to Paul avinaty dot com, let me know what episode you're
commenting on and give me a brief summary of what you're asking a question about,
and then be sure to ask your own question, and because I don't
want to go back and rewatch. I mean, I have over a thousand
podcasts episodes out there. I am not going back and rewatching to see what
I said, because again I do these off the cuff. I don't study
and prepare for them. This is what my life is. This is what
I do every day. Is I eat, sleep, and breathe code all
the time. So you know, I'm still eat up with it. I
love it. I love this trade. I love what Electrician stands for,
and so it does offend me when I see people not taking it as serious
as I do. But I get life is short. You gotta do what
you gotta do to enjoy life. But again, this is what I love
to do. So so anyway, that's what we have for that question.
But make sure if you're going to do a follow up, give us all
the information you can so I can make an educated follow up response. All
right, So let's see here if we've got another question of the day's episode.
All right, So the last question we have is a in My wife
has triggered this one. Darlene Is. If you don't know Darling Is,
she's the VP of operations here. She keeps everything running on the day to
day basis of everything, shipping stuff out, everything that she does. She
keeps it all going, and she also keeps track of these things. And
she sent me one of these questions that she flagged that says, Hey,
Paul, I follow your podcast religiously. I love everything that you do.
I'm a master electrician in multiple states, but I want to continually continue to
learn. Okay, that's great, That's exactly how you should be. I
have apprentices and electricians that work under me, and they always ask me,
other than the National Electrical Code, what other learning program do I recommend to
help further their career and to get a better understanding of basic electrical theories and
concepts. Any advice you can give would be appreciated. Thanks in advance.
Okay, well, thank you for that. So if you're already lie and
you're not just taking our NEC course to get a better understanding of the NEC.
One of the things that I tell people that they really need to focus
in their career on why they're learning is article two fifty and article two fifty
and then article two hundred dealing with grounded conductors in the in the in the
confusion that people have between grounded, grounding, bonded, bonded, all those
type of things. Equipment grounding conductors serving both the grounding and a bonding purpose.
Instead of arguing that an equipment grounding conductor should be called equipment bonding conductor,
rather than argue it, embrace the concept of what the conductor actually does
all those type of things. So for me, probably my biggest passion obviously
is dealing with Article two fifty. Not just because I serve on code making
Panel five. It's because I'm always enamored at the grounding and bonding and the
fact that even when you do electrical wrong and you bond things and do things
wrong, it still works. The only problem is that it creates potential hazards
that are sitting there waiting like a ticking time bomb. The beautiful thing about
electricity is it again when people say, what does electricity take the path of
least resistance. Now, the electricity takes all paths they're available. The amount
of current that travels is proportional to the impedance of that path. So a
low impedance path is going to allow more current to flow. It's going to
allow the overcurrent devices to operate. Okay, it's going to allow current to
flow so that you get an imbalance for GFCI devices to function. All these
type of things and all of it is a fundamental understanding of grounding and bonding.
So for me, one of my passions has always been talking about Article
two fifty. There is simply still stuff in there that blows my mind.
And then we have some great members on Code Panel five that their specialty is
in high resistive grounding and all this kind of stuff that are really Eric Stromberg,
who's who loves that kind of thing and he really lives in that world.
There's just so many people. We've got Joe Andre who you know,
works with the raceway manufacturers as their representative for steel tube, and he's got
such a knowledge of steel tube. And so I'm just a sponge when I
sit there. I'm a wiring cable guy and a general code guy. And
I sit in there with these these people. And you got the people that
actually serve for different like et L and U L who do have a lot
of testing and and then you get to listen to their understanding of testing with
grounding and bonding and all. And it's just to be able to sit in
that room and comment when I comment, or chime in when I chime in.
It's just been great for the last you know, I guess ten years
that I've been doing that for that code panel. So it's it's I enjoy
doing it. But if I had to give advice to any electrician that's already
licensed, I would say get our Grounding and Bonding Program the twenty twenty three
edition. Doesn't matter which cycle you're on as far as your state the grounding
and Bonding principles. You always want to stay up to date on that because
we're always changing it every three years, clarifying things, writing it a little
bit better. You definitely want to get a good grounding and bonding course.
Now. The beautiful thing about our new Grounding and Bonding courses it does not
expire, so when you purchase it, you've got it for years. So
if you get the twenty twenty three, then whether you're on the twenty seventeen,
the twenty twenty or whatever, it's still going to be good relevant information
and you don't and it doesn't expire. So that's the beautiful thing about the
Grounding and Bonding Program. It is one of the ones we're most proud of
and it's a great price over on our website fastracksystem dot com. And if
you go there, you can also sign up for our free webinar that's going
to be again on June fifteenth, twenty twenty four, and if you miss
it, it'll be available over on fasttrackstube dot com after the fact. Now,
fasttracks Tube is a paid subscription platform. We have hundreds of videos over
there, exclusive videos. You also, as a fasttracks Tube subscriber, you
get access to our biweekly Wednesday night sessions. Without being a member of our
courses. You can still come and join us on those Wednesday nights that we
had that session. So that's another benefit to the fasttracks Tube program, well
subscription program over there for the videos. But here's what we're going to do.
If you go and buy our Grounding and Bonding course, which again I
recommend to anybody whether you're licensed or not, you want to get a better
understanding of grounding bonding. If you go to fasttrackssystem dot com and you buy
our core, then let me know in the comments that you heard about it
on TikTok or on a podcast on this podcast, and what we'll do is
we will give you a free twelve month subscription over to fasttrackstube dot com.
We'll just give you twelve months for you to try it out and maybe at
the end of twelve months you will renew it because you see value in it.
And the good news is we have a new series it's exclusive to fast
Tracks Tube network and that is just calculations where we're going to break down calculations
in video. All the calculations that you're gonna need, We're going to break
it down in a new series that's exclusive over on fast Tracks Tube. So
you want to make sure you get that, and you're only going to get
that if you are a subscriber over on fast Tracks Tube. So get our
grounding and bonding course and when you check out putting the comments that you heard
about the free twelve month fast Tracks Tube subscription on the podcast or on TikTok
and then we will send you the information on how to get set up to
get your free twelve month access to that video platform. And I'm telling you,
folks, that is the coolest video platform out there, far cooler than
YouTube. Okay. We had it made from the ground up and tweaked just
for our needs. It's got so many neat features you'll love it. It
even has this neat feature where you can turn off all the lights. So
if you're watching somewhere in bed or doing something and you have all this other
clutter on your screen, you click one button and just the players the only
thing that's lit up. That is cool. You don't see that anywhere else,
so check that out. All right, folks, That's all I've got
for this episode of the Let's Ask Paul. Until next time, Stay safe,
god bless, and remember you can submit any questions you want to me
over at Paul Abernathy dot com and it will either be answered in an upcoming
podcast or in an email. Till next time, Stay safe, God bless.
Both both ask nothing, Ask nothing,