WEBVTT 1 00:00:09.400 --> 00:00:12.880 Hello, and welcome to this episode of Superhero Ethics. Today, we have 2 00:00:12.919 --> 00:00:18.440 some returning guests, Max and John from Superhuman Public Radio. It is an 3 00:00:18.559 --> 00:00:25.679 NPR style station podcast, a commentary on the entire superhero genre and also just 4 00:00:25.719 --> 00:00:29.000 a great story, and these two guys have created it. I had the 5 00:00:29.079 --> 00:00:32.439 mind to talk about season one a while ago. They're back with season two 6 00:00:32.799 --> 00:00:36.560 and we're gonna be talking with them not only about their what they put out 7 00:00:36.600 --> 00:00:39.759 and sort of thinking that goes into it, but what it means to talk 8 00:00:39.799 --> 00:00:43.799 about superheroes in an audio only format. So let me just start with some 9 00:00:43.880 --> 00:00:47.439 introductions. Max, what don't you go first? Yeah? Sure, Yeah, 10 00:00:47.439 --> 00:00:52.280 I'm Maximilian Clark. I've been the co creator with Jack on this. 11 00:00:52.719 --> 00:00:59.479 My backgrounds in film and web, and I'm I'm currently running three different shows 12 00:00:59.520 --> 00:01:03.679 and three different networks. Another fiction show for Good Scory Guild and a non 13 00:01:03.759 --> 00:01:08.319 fiction show for Podcast one, but Superhuman Public. But Superhuman Public Radio is 14 00:01:08.359 --> 00:01:12.519 my baby and I love it so much. You can also find me like 15 00:01:12.599 --> 00:01:19.040 trolling at QAN on events on socials Nice nice as you should be. And 16 00:01:19.120 --> 00:01:26.359 mister Dorsey, Yeah, and I'm John sometimes Jack John Jack Dorsey, co 17 00:01:26.480 --> 00:01:33.000 creator of the show. I produce less programs than Max, and beyond being 18 00:01:33.959 --> 00:01:40.200 a podcaster and writer, I work as a union prop master in the DMV 19 00:01:40.400 --> 00:01:45.760 area. Awesome, DMV. That's the Department of Motor Vehicles. That's true 20 00:01:45.840 --> 00:01:49.599 department. But I am wherever you get your license played. I was thinking, 21 00:01:49.680 --> 00:01:53.200 I mean, I've seen some DMV agents who I think think they are 22 00:01:53.239 --> 00:01:56.959 on set with the like level of Pedanta Tree, so that would make sense 23 00:01:56.959 --> 00:02:00.920 to me. Well, good, good to have union folks involved. So 24 00:02:00.159 --> 00:02:05.760 let me kind of just get started with what is SPR It is not Superhero 25 00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:08.759 Public Radio, as I put out under our social media last time, and 26 00:02:08.879 --> 00:02:14.800 Maximilian was very kind enough to gently correct me, But what is Superhuman Public 27 00:02:14.840 --> 00:02:17.960 Radio? Yeah, Superhero Public Radio would have been a good title, as 28 00:02:17.960 --> 00:02:24.439 it turns out from an SEO spit standpoint, but human. Let's see what 29 00:02:24.439 --> 00:02:28.840 I did there, Jack, I don't like the branding. Yeah yeah, 30 00:02:28.919 --> 00:02:36.319 yeah no. So we tell original stories in a superhero world through the lens 31 00:02:36.360 --> 00:02:42.439 of an NPR station. So we do in depth news reporting in our fictional 32 00:02:42.520 --> 00:02:46.520 world, but we also have segments like These American Supers or one hundred sent 33 00:02:46.560 --> 00:02:53.000 Invisible that does deep dives into the lives and behind the scenes of some of 34 00:02:53.039 --> 00:03:00.159 the things that make a superhero world work. It's the shorthand is it's what 35 00:03:00.319 --> 00:03:06.199 MPR would sound like if superheroes were real. Yeah, right right, yeah, 36 00:03:06.240 --> 00:03:08.120 and yeah, when we just try to tell really personal, original stories, 37 00:03:08.120 --> 00:03:14.159 it's a playground for us to do little thought experiments on stuff and you 38 00:03:14.199 --> 00:03:17.800 know, like all or just express our own world through goofy stuff. Right 39 00:03:19.120 --> 00:03:21.439 well, And I really love that. I think the term goofy that you 40 00:03:21.520 --> 00:03:25.039 used is really perfect because it is both you give a great picture into the 41 00:03:25.080 --> 00:03:29.000 world and I feel like, you know, it's funny. Yesterday I started 42 00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:31.400 listening to a couple of the older episodes because I wanted to kind of have 43 00:03:31.400 --> 00:03:35.159 it in my head, and I wanted to all build up to the first 44 00:03:35.199 --> 00:03:38.080 episode and the trailer that you have out for season two, which we'll definitely 45 00:03:38.080 --> 00:03:39.759 talk about at a later point in the podcast. And I was thinking to 46 00:03:39.800 --> 00:03:42.800 myself, like, Okay, we'll just listen to like three or four, 47 00:03:42.879 --> 00:03:46.120 and I got so wrapped up and things I couldn't stop. So I had 48 00:03:46.120 --> 00:03:47.439 to be like, wait, no, how much time to have before we 49 00:03:47.479 --> 00:03:53.159 record. Let me finish that this morning and and we'll talk more about the 50 00:03:53.159 --> 00:03:55.520 superhero side of it, but I want to hear you talk more about why 51 00:03:55.639 --> 00:04:00.039 NPR specifically, Like there are a lot NBR is a very particular brand with 52 00:04:00.159 --> 00:04:05.360 very particular sort of quirks that you really play into. Well, you know, 53 00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:11.159 everything from the kind of like gentle music in the like fresh air type 54 00:04:11.199 --> 00:04:15.160 segments and then this American life that is this American soups to the your version 55 00:04:15.199 --> 00:04:23.160 of click and clack, the Clackett Brothers of car talk in what utility about? 56 00:04:23.199 --> 00:04:27.680 Thank You? What was it about that kind of like because clearly my 57 00:04:27.720 --> 00:04:30.759 senses you both listened to a lot of NPR. What was it that made 58 00:04:30.759 --> 00:04:32.439 you kind of choose NPR? And kind of how how has it been? 59 00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:36.399 Like what have been your thoughts about what you're saying about that before you can 60 00:04:36.399 --> 00:04:41.439 get into the superhuman side of it. So a lot of it came from 61 00:04:41.480 --> 00:04:44.680 So the original idea for the show came from, you know, I write 62 00:04:44.720 --> 00:04:49.000 movies that nobody buys, but I wrote a gag into one of them, 63 00:04:49.040 --> 00:04:56.160 you know, that was essentially an NPR station called SPR and me and Max 64 00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:00.279 worked on a project that was going to be an independent web pile and that 65 00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:02.519 didn't wind up going anywhere, but we talked about the project, and you 66 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:09.399 know, both of us are dirty liberals, so we both listened to an 67 00:05:09.439 --> 00:05:14.759 incredible amount of NPR. But it was also just the fact that if you 68 00:05:14.800 --> 00:05:20.519 look at their programming, it's less it's it's a lot of it's not informative, 69 00:05:20.600 --> 00:05:23.959 isn't the right word, but it's a lot of you know, human 70 00:05:24.120 --> 00:05:30.399 stories, And it felt very easy to kind of go from there and you 71 00:05:30.399 --> 00:05:33.600 know, find a basis. The first segment that was ever written on the 72 00:05:33.639 --> 00:05:44.079 show was the interview between Cosmos, who's our Superman analog, and Kelly Close, 73 00:05:44.120 --> 00:05:46.839 who's basically Terry Gross, and from there it just kind of felt like, 74 00:05:46.839 --> 00:05:50.600 oh, we should just really dig into that and beyond that the ethos 75 00:05:50.680 --> 00:05:54.839 that we have on the show, because you know, there's a lot of 76 00:05:54.839 --> 00:05:58.959 superhero parody out today. You know, you have Invincible and you have The 77 00:05:59.000 --> 00:06:03.959 Boys, and you know they do a really good job of skewering comic book 78 00:06:03.959 --> 00:06:09.480 heroes. But we we like to use the phrase it's it's parody with a 79 00:06:09.519 --> 00:06:14.759 purpose. So whenever we pick a topic, we try to make sure like, 80 00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.399 Okay, what are we actually saying about this? Yeah, well, 81 00:06:17.439 --> 00:06:20.560 I mean as someone on Reddit actually said it better than we did, uh, 82 00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:26.240 where they said it's not so much a deconstruction of comic books as it 83 00:06:26.319 --> 00:06:30.839 is a deconstruction of the real world using comic books, Like like we're sating 84 00:06:31.079 --> 00:06:36.160 we're satirizing the news cycle more than we are comic books. But what I 85 00:06:36.199 --> 00:06:40.120 really like about the format too, is like it gives us a lot of 86 00:06:40.199 --> 00:06:42.720 variety. Like, I mean, you named like five of our different shows. 87 00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:46.720 We have another one based on Cereal this season, which is gonna be 88 00:06:46.720 --> 00:06:48.000 a lot of fun, and so we just get to attack it from a 89 00:06:48.040 --> 00:06:53.639 lot of different angles using a lot of different voices. And I mean we 90 00:06:53.680 --> 00:06:57.680 have a sixty three person cast, Like we we get to make this big, 91 00:06:57.759 --> 00:07:00.639 immersive world, and we designed it in a way that like, if 92 00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.319 you're playing in the car, like and you're not paying attention, your brain 93 00:07:03.399 --> 00:07:08.079 will just say, like, hey, I'm listening to NPR right now. 94 00:07:08.120 --> 00:07:11.160 And it's really cool to just sort of like be able to like create a 95 00:07:11.199 --> 00:07:15.160 world that feels very tangible for people. That's been one of the big great 96 00:07:15.160 --> 00:07:17.560 pieces of feedback we've done. One thing, if I understand how you're doing 97 00:07:17.560 --> 00:07:20.839 it, Like you gotta pay the bills and you do have advertising in it, 98 00:07:21.600 --> 00:07:26.959 but but you generally have a like an actual ad from some company that 99 00:07:27.000 --> 00:07:29.839 I'm hoping, you know, help help support you all, and then a 100 00:07:29.879 --> 00:07:32.279 fake ad that would exist in your world. And like, there's one ad 101 00:07:32.319 --> 00:07:35.639 that that played sometimes on mine that was, you know, for Nordstrom and 102 00:07:35.639 --> 00:07:39.319 I so we can immediately tell. But there was another one that was for 103 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:44.439 kind of like kind of new advance in eyeglasses, and I honestly couldn't tell 104 00:07:45.079 --> 00:07:46.959 if it was an ad you had created or an AD someone had put in 105 00:07:47.399 --> 00:07:50.639 that was helping to make you money. And because it came followed by your 106 00:07:50.680 --> 00:07:55.560 ad for uh, Spanko I think or not spanko. That's a real thing, 107 00:07:56.600 --> 00:08:01.160 sp spandexo. And I just thought it was so brilliant that like I 108 00:08:01.199 --> 00:08:05.959 could literally couldn't tell what was the ad from our own world and what was 109 00:08:05.000 --> 00:08:07.720 the ad internal to your own to your world. Oh that's always fun to 110 00:08:07.720 --> 00:08:11.399 hear. Yeah. No, we we typically uh like to play on like 111 00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:18.079 a lot of the podcast aids you here. Uh we have like uh over 112 00:08:18.279 --> 00:08:26.319 Armor this season, we have like Dollar Shoe Club in the Tar Shave Club. 113 00:08:28.439 --> 00:08:33.799 But what's the one from the first episode, big ass shorts, Yeah 114 00:08:33.840 --> 00:08:37.159 for for for Hulksters. Basically, uh, the extra stretchy what was the 115 00:08:37.200 --> 00:08:41.720 what was the one that we did with the squares space shield Space Shield space 116 00:08:41.720 --> 00:08:48.120 that like builds your custom uh superhero lare in minutes and and and plugs it 117 00:08:48.159 --> 00:08:50.759 in. But yeah, it's it's great. Actually, I think my favorite 118 00:08:50.799 --> 00:08:52.960 this season is going to be Rings dot Com. Oh my god. Yeah, 119 00:08:54.000 --> 00:08:56.919 yeah that's h episode six. And if you want to hear why it's 120 00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:01.080 my favorite, you know, come back later. I I was thinking about 121 00:09:01.080 --> 00:09:05.279 this the other day because we made so in our first season, like even 122 00:09:05.799 --> 00:09:09.200 for our press releases, we did it all in universe. We even got 123 00:09:09.200 --> 00:09:15.039 an email back from somebody who's like, this is the weirdest press release I've 124 00:09:15.080 --> 00:09:18.559 ever gotten. I don't know what's happening, but I am going to publish 125 00:09:18.639 --> 00:09:20.559 this, which is kind of like, oh, that's great. But then 126 00:09:20.600 --> 00:09:24.519 a lot of people sort of missed out on the joke. So we've sort 127 00:09:24.519 --> 00:09:28.159 of we've dropped the mask a little bit. Yeah, we're on Fable and 128 00:09:28.159 --> 00:09:31.080 Folly this season, and it was into our trailer and looked at some of 129 00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:35.519 our promos and they're like, hey, we liked the trailer, you never 130 00:09:35.320 --> 00:09:39.320 you never mentioned that it's like audio fiction and that people can listen to it 131 00:09:39.360 --> 00:09:43.679 and then you make episodes of the thing. And we both looked at each 132 00:09:43.679 --> 00:09:48.639 other like, yes, because in a trailer that would be good for people 133 00:09:48.679 --> 00:09:54.240 to know that it's a show. But that's a level of like dedication and 134 00:09:54.279 --> 00:09:58.519 immersiveness. You know, it feels like the equivalent to the actor who just 135 00:09:58.639 --> 00:10:01.960 like method, you know, is never breaking character. I like that. 136 00:10:01.559 --> 00:10:05.200 Yeah, I mean, we might do intellectually, but as it turns out 137 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:09.080 inside like a great yeah. But it I was, I was, I 138 00:10:09.120 --> 00:10:13.360 was really thinking about like why I love doing this, and I was, 139 00:10:13.960 --> 00:10:18.559 I guess I still remain. I was a huge fan of Lost, and 140 00:10:20.360 --> 00:10:28.480 specifically I loved that expanded universe that they had with the Dharma Foundation, and 141 00:10:28.799 --> 00:10:33.039 they even published the book that Sawyer's reading in season one, and it felt 142 00:10:33.120 --> 00:10:37.000 like this this you know, it felt like this world that you could could 143 00:10:37.279 --> 00:10:43.840 could scratch at just endlessly and find new nuggets of information, which is what 144 00:10:43.840 --> 00:10:48.440 we've tried to do with the show and make sure it feels as real and 145 00:10:48.519 --> 00:10:56.279 seamless as possible. Right. We have gags from the first season that people 146 00:10:56.360 --> 00:11:01.120 have not found that we like built into the website, into the artwork, 147 00:11:01.399 --> 00:11:05.879 and just they're there. Well, and folks, listeners, if you go 148 00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:09.519 back, hopefully you've already listened to season one. If you haven't, definitely 149 00:11:09.600 --> 00:11:11.240 do so. And if you find some new ones, send them into us. 150 00:11:11.279 --> 00:11:13.840 So I'll give you the contact avation at the end and make sure John 151 00:11:13.879 --> 00:11:18.399 and Max get tagged. Yeah, we'll send you a T shirt. Yeah, 152 00:11:18.080 --> 00:11:22.120 especially if you find the one that promises you a teacher. That's true. 153 00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.639 Awesome, Okay, sounds good, sounds good. Well, and I 154 00:11:26.840 --> 00:11:30.000 want to talk more about the superhero format that you guys are satirizing in a 155 00:11:30.000 --> 00:11:31.840 bit. But but I want to start to do with what you said about 156 00:11:33.960 --> 00:11:37.799 the way you're kind of using superheroes as a method to make commentary on our 157 00:11:37.799 --> 00:11:41.080 own real world because one of my favorite segments that I listened to from season 158 00:11:41.159 --> 00:11:46.919 one, so I fell okay, Spoiling is about a man who gets rescued 159 00:11:46.919 --> 00:11:50.120 by a powerful woman and he's so overwhelmed about the experience that he starts crying 160 00:11:50.879 --> 00:11:54.440 and then he like a picture of that gets taken and it gets turned into 161 00:11:54.440 --> 00:11:58.320 a meme, and then that meme winds up getting used to support causes that 162 00:11:58.360 --> 00:12:03.120 he's totally against, and he talks about how much it affects his life. 163 00:12:03.240 --> 00:12:07.639 And as I was listening to that, I was struck by I have heard 164 00:12:07.720 --> 00:12:11.720 this story and if you take out the fact that it was a super person 165 00:12:11.159 --> 00:12:18.279 who rescued him, a woman's superhero, and just make it some other embarrassing 166 00:12:18.320 --> 00:12:24.639 photo of him became an internet meme and has been online and cause this person 167 00:12:24.759 --> 00:12:26.480 harm. Like, that's a real life story. And to me that was 168 00:12:26.519 --> 00:12:31.440 a brilliant thing where you're just you're making the superhumanists the cause of it, 169 00:12:31.799 --> 00:12:37.360 but it's really just an incredibly relatable real life situation. Yeah, I mean, 170 00:12:37.360 --> 00:12:41.600 I mean that's always the goal. I loved that segment. To Jeff 171 00:12:41.639 --> 00:12:45.399 Grimwood is a guy I always try to plug into things I use. He 172 00:12:45.759 --> 00:12:50.960 plays the cry baby in that episode and Hesus is such a good performer. 173 00:12:52.000 --> 00:12:56.440 I think that's actually a good example the mix we try to do where we 174 00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:00.320 we like, we look at something, you know, and that goes the 175 00:13:00.360 --> 00:13:03.159 other way. Because that's something that we think about a lot in comic worlds 176 00:13:03.200 --> 00:13:07.000 of like what is the traumatic ripple effect of being rescued? Right? Like, 177 00:13:07.039 --> 00:13:11.519 like people to act like Superman pulls you out of a like erupting volcano 178 00:13:11.600 --> 00:13:16.759 and then you're just fine. But like, yeah, just the like the 179 00:13:16.039 --> 00:13:22.000 unintended consequences from just any interaction you have in the superhero world fascinates us. 180 00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:28.840 And yeah and yeah, and we we we we try to find like an 181 00:13:28.840 --> 00:13:31.440 emotional mirror when we're discussing something like that, and we're just like, yeah, 182 00:13:31.559 --> 00:13:35.840 do you know what that feels like? It feels like the unintentional consequences 183 00:13:35.919 --> 00:13:39.679 of these people that like like hide the pain Herald that's a real dude, 184 00:13:39.360 --> 00:13:43.120 right, like like like he has to go out and live his life with 185 00:13:43.159 --> 00:13:48.360 people just like given him that that little grin at him and uh, like 186 00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:52.879 all he did was sign up for a stock image like photo shoot. He 187 00:13:52.879 --> 00:13:56.519 probably got paid like twelve hundred buckstops and now his life is defined by this 188 00:13:56.600 --> 00:14:01.120 thing. And and I think that both of those are fascinating and it's really 189 00:14:01.159 --> 00:14:05.480 cool when we get to Nixon. Yeah, I mean, I apologize in 190 00:14:05.519 --> 00:14:09.600 advance for anyone who's going to feel chronologically challenged by this. But you know 191 00:14:09.759 --> 00:14:15.879 a lot of the kind of like pictures of young children that became internet memes, 192 00:14:15.879 --> 00:14:18.679 like you know, angry baby or girl in front of fire with a 193 00:14:18.679 --> 00:14:22.440 mysterious smile on her face, Like those people are now adults and or you 194 00:14:22.480 --> 00:14:26.240 know, they'll talk about how like they didn't even get page twelve hundred bucks. 195 00:14:26.279 --> 00:14:30.039 Maybe their parents did, but you know they're constantly minded of you know, 196 00:14:30.159 --> 00:14:31.720 or they're trying to hide the fact that please no one record, no 197 00:14:31.759 --> 00:14:35.759 one look at my baby pictures because you'll see that I'm that meme that everyone 198 00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:39.320 has seen. Yeah, yeah, I mean I think that's sort of like 199 00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:43.240 the weird thing about internet culture in general too, is like anything you do 200 00:14:43.320 --> 00:14:48.919 online could potentially like just spiral way out of control for no reason. And 201 00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:52.919 so you're now kind of at the point where like when you're here or have 202 00:14:52.000 --> 00:14:56.080 you always been at this kind of point, or where you're hearing a new 203 00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:58.360 story, or you're thinking about some new you know, group of people who 204 00:14:58.360 --> 00:15:01.559 are getting screw it over, or some new kind of evil that's happening in 205 00:15:01.559 --> 00:15:05.559 our own world, or you know, terrible thing and thinking, Okay, 206 00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:09.200 how can we make this, how can we put this into the super human 207 00:15:09.240 --> 00:15:13.240 world. It's definitely something that we talk about a lot, because even when 208 00:15:13.240 --> 00:15:20.000 you look at just like the characters that already exist Superman, Batman, Spider 209 00:15:20.039 --> 00:15:24.840 Man, and I feel like the stories that really kind of carry through and 210 00:15:24.879 --> 00:15:28.080 are the ones that are iconic, They're the ones that are inspired by world 211 00:15:28.320 --> 00:15:35.519 world things, all right. Clark Kent's whole identity is based in the fact 212 00:15:35.559 --> 00:15:39.559 that the writers were Jewish during a time when it was not cool to be 213 00:15:39.639 --> 00:15:41.919 Jewish, and they wrote this character that was about the fact they couldn't be 214 00:15:41.960 --> 00:15:46.519 there their real selves, they couldn't feel that they could live up to their 215 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:50.840 potential, and they created Superman, and he's he's become this icon that, 216 00:15:50.159 --> 00:15:56.600 like you know, is eternal. So when we're trying to tackle these stories, 217 00:15:56.679 --> 00:16:02.120 it's it's never We almost never start with comix first. It is usually 218 00:16:02.919 --> 00:16:08.840 something going on in the world. So when we finished season one, you 219 00:16:08.919 --> 00:16:12.840 know, just like a couple of weeks later, January sixth happened, and 220 00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.759 you know what, we watched I live outside of DC, and I was 221 00:16:18.799 --> 00:16:21.320 holding my newborn son and I was like, oh my god, is the 222 00:16:21.399 --> 00:16:23.840 United States going to burn down? And that's made its way into the show. 223 00:16:25.519 --> 00:16:30.559 The Women's March has made its way into the show. Yeah, I 224 00:16:30.559 --> 00:16:33.440 mean Markland, Yeah, I mean season two. It's been two and a 225 00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:40.120 half years since season one ended, and in that time, like I've been 226 00:16:40.120 --> 00:16:44.879 producing for my friend Walter Masterson for like all that time, and he was 227 00:16:44.919 --> 00:16:49.320 at January sixth. I was only not there because my wife has a long 228 00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:52.919 thing and we didn't we weren't. This is prevacs and I was like, 229 00:16:52.000 --> 00:16:56.279 oh no, like I can't wear a mask, like I'll join you for 230 00:16:56.320 --> 00:16:59.919 the inauguration. But like, you know, we spent a lot of time 231 00:17:00.279 --> 00:17:04.160 in the ault Right spaces and talking to people, like like having these deep 232 00:17:04.160 --> 00:17:11.640 conversations with QAnon, and that's shaped one of our main antagonist groups in season 233 00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:18.680 two. And it's funny because some feedback that I've gotten on our draft is 234 00:17:18.720 --> 00:17:22.079 that it seems like a characterature, and I'm like I have to explain, 235 00:17:22.119 --> 00:17:27.039 like, no, this is so authentic to the way that these that the 236 00:17:26.680 --> 00:17:32.599 that the ault Right is right now, like like I am sometimes like lifting 237 00:17:32.720 --> 00:17:41.480 quotes for our segments here. It just seems like two dimensional satire because of 238 00:17:41.000 --> 00:17:45.039 the nature of the space. But yeah, like I don't know, this 239 00:17:45.079 --> 00:17:48.079 is well, I mean, you know, the world's on fire and this 240 00:17:48.119 --> 00:17:49.640 is how we cope. Yeah, yeah, well, I mean that's one 241 00:17:49.640 --> 00:17:55.319 thing I really appreciate because I think it's all the stray before, but I 242 00:17:55.400 --> 00:17:56.319 know it's all the stray before, So I'm trying to make a brief. 243 00:17:56.359 --> 00:18:00.279 But I got into science fiction because my mother would sit me down to watch 244 00:18:00.359 --> 00:18:03.799 all the episodes of Star Trek, the original series, and she didn't care 245 00:18:03.799 --> 00:18:07.119 at all about the spaceships and that the science of it, but she wanted, 246 00:18:07.240 --> 00:18:10.400 you know, to talk to me at like age eight or nine, 247 00:18:10.519 --> 00:18:12.960 about like, yeah, this episode where these people have different colors on their 248 00:18:12.960 --> 00:18:15.000 face, what do you think is going on there? And what does it 249 00:18:15.039 --> 00:18:19.119 have to think? She she introduced me the idea of science fiction as holding 250 00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:22.359 up a mirror to worn world, and I figure, like comics can do 251 00:18:22.400 --> 00:18:26.400 that. You guys are really doing that too, and I love how intentionally 252 00:18:26.400 --> 00:18:29.880 you're being about that. Yeah, yeah, thanks, I mean I mean 253 00:18:29.880 --> 00:18:32.480 that's I mean, that's why we tell stories, right, I mean, 254 00:18:32.519 --> 00:18:37.200 like like it's why literally any story exist, is to con face something about 255 00:18:37.200 --> 00:18:41.440 the world. And yeah, it's just nice that we have this like outlet 256 00:18:41.519 --> 00:18:45.720 where we get to like talk about so many different things. And it also 257 00:18:45.799 --> 00:18:48.359 like it softens it, right, like like it's hard, like you know, 258 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:52.640 are especially season two is incredibly political, but it is softened a little 259 00:18:52.640 --> 00:18:55.759 bit by the fact that, you know, we're talking about people who are 260 00:18:56.279 --> 00:19:00.359 concerned about getting melted in their seats, uh, you know, by their 261 00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:03.440 classmates, and that's why they want to ban supers from public schools. You 262 00:19:03.480 --> 00:19:10.480 know. Yeah, you know, it's just another way in go ahead, 263 00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:14.759 please check. Well. I was just gonna say, it's just the stories 264 00:19:14.759 --> 00:19:17.720 that you're talking about, the ones that are taking things in the real world. 265 00:19:18.240 --> 00:19:21.839 Those are the ones that you remember, just just the sort of blank 266 00:19:22.279 --> 00:19:27.160 hero fights, villain saves day. You know, those are not the ones 267 00:19:27.240 --> 00:19:33.880 that stay with you because they're kind of inherently hollow. Yeah. Yeah, 268 00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:38.640 I mean, I mean not to dis sky beams, but I mean, 269 00:19:38.680 --> 00:19:42.720 how many of us really think about sky beams in your day to day life. 270 00:19:42.599 --> 00:19:45.799 Yeah, that's fair, that's fair. Well, and I I'm so 271 00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:48.279 tempted the one. I don't want to ask you more about season two, 272 00:19:48.279 --> 00:19:52.160 but I also, with every media cover have such a strong anti spoilers policy 273 00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:55.839 that I don't want to go too deep. But I just what you said 274 00:19:55.880 --> 00:19:59.799 about like this idea of students being afraid that someone else is gonna, you 275 00:19:59.799 --> 00:20:03.480 know, help them in their seat. You know, on the one hand, 276 00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:04.920 I get that there's a humor there of oh, that is such a 277 00:20:06.000 --> 00:20:08.960 ridiculous fear compared to our own world. But also if you listen to people 278 00:20:10.000 --> 00:20:11.039 who are afraid of you know, and I'm sure this is kind of where 279 00:20:11.039 --> 00:20:15.400 you're going, you know, trans kids in their school or you know a 280 00:20:15.880 --> 00:20:21.119 certain books on the bookshelves, those fears are actually just as fictionally ridiculous as 281 00:20:21.160 --> 00:20:22.799 the They're gonna melt me in my seat. But that's what we're dealing with 282 00:20:22.839 --> 00:20:27.880 in our own world. So yeah, it is very believable. Yeah, 283 00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:33.319 I mean, I guess no official comment given the spoiler, it's full, 284 00:20:33.640 --> 00:20:38.240 it's not a spoiler to say when we were initially and you can kind of 285 00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:42.680 see because we wrote this over. We wrote the season over last year, 286 00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:48.400 but we had been talking about it for a year before, and it took 287 00:20:48.440 --> 00:20:52.319 us a while because I got COVID, I had one COVID, I was 288 00:20:52.400 --> 00:20:56.240 a sleeper, I've got a toddler. You know, I was working on 289 00:20:56.319 --> 00:21:00.359 a TV show, so everything was getting in the way. And originally we 290 00:21:00.440 --> 00:21:06.279 had you know, imagine sort of like you know, this sort of que 291 00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:10.759 kind of figure, you know, leaking something about storyline that is so gone, 292 00:21:10.920 --> 00:21:12.759 and that was back when Q was like, ha ha, look at 293 00:21:12.799 --> 00:21:17.720 this cute thing these fringe people are doing. It's like, by the time 294 00:21:18.240 --> 00:21:25.119 we started writing that is really bad. This is incredibly dangerous, and then 295 00:21:25.440 --> 00:21:29.279 start thinking more about kind of our world and sort of the pieces on the 296 00:21:29.319 --> 00:21:30.960 table. Well, I mean, I think that storyline got kind of absorbed 297 00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:36.799 by what we are doing. But it's also like it did. But one 298 00:21:36.839 --> 00:21:41.240 of the things that we we did is just kind of we looked at where 299 00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.880 the baton was in season one and we're trying to figure out, Okay, 300 00:21:44.880 --> 00:21:48.319 who's going to pick this up. At the end of our first season, 301 00:21:48.000 --> 00:21:56.480 the the United States is considering publicly registering all superhumans. So it's you know, 302 00:21:56.519 --> 00:22:00.480 what's that the response to that. You're gonna have people who are for 303 00:22:00.599 --> 00:22:03.400 it, You're you know, all right, and then you're gonna have well, 304 00:22:03.400 --> 00:22:07.079 I mean, who's centrist people do who also are like caught up in 305 00:22:07.119 --> 00:22:11.440 the well you know, I hear, I hear these things. Yeah, 306 00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:15.039 and then it's how a how are young people are going to respond? You 307 00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:22.000 know? Obviously, you know X Men has been sort of overtly and unintentionally 308 00:22:22.039 --> 00:22:26.000 political throughout its run so kind of you know, how are the youth gonna, 309 00:22:26.119 --> 00:22:30.119 yeah, going to respond to this? What's going to be the corporate 310 00:22:30.160 --> 00:22:33.519 response? And and it's worth pointing out there that, like, you know, 311 00:22:33.799 --> 00:22:37.839 it's it's funny because like we talk about things that are topical to a 312 00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:41.240 certain extent, but it's like, you know, the cyclical nature of history. 313 00:22:41.319 --> 00:22:45.279 We're doing the mutant Registration Act. I mean, when was that storyline 314 00:22:45.319 --> 00:22:48.359 first put out? Like like the first time that X Men talked about that. 315 00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:52.160 But like what's old is new again, right, It's just there are 316 00:22:52.240 --> 00:22:59.839 certain societal dynamics that just keep rearing their ugly heads, and yeah, we 317 00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:02.960 we try to bring a fresh perspective, but like him, yeah, it's 318 00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:04.599 twenty twenty three, and here we are again. Yeah, you have people 319 00:23:06.039 --> 00:23:10.000 saying the thing that tried. You know, I'm in DC Comics, Twitter, 320 00:23:10.359 --> 00:23:11.519 Marvel, Twitter, and every once in a while they'll see it's just 321 00:23:11.559 --> 00:23:15.519 like, oh my gosh, this book got political, and like people will 322 00:23:15.559 --> 00:23:18.519 be saying this about the They'll be saying it about the X Men, a 323 00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:25.240 book where the leaders were based on MLK and Malcolm X, and like it 324 00:23:25.279 --> 00:23:30.720 makes my head want to explode every time, and they're trying to get everything 325 00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:36.839 scrubbed out of comics. I don't know if you're familiar with like the Comics 326 00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:41.720 Code Authority, which was basically right, and like people are essentially asking for 327 00:23:41.759 --> 00:23:47.960 this thing to return. And while like some very cool art kind of eked 328 00:23:48.039 --> 00:23:53.599 by just sort of how you know, there's a lot of very not controversial 329 00:23:53.640 --> 00:23:59.160 but artistically done films who were trying to dodge like the Haze Code. It 330 00:23:59.319 --> 00:24:03.200 just seemed it's weird that people are trying to muzzle themselves so that they don't 331 00:24:03.240 --> 00:24:11.240 have artwork that challenges any idea that they might have. You know, it's 332 00:24:11.279 --> 00:24:15.559 so true. And we've got a couple episodes on the history of comics on 333 00:24:15.559 --> 00:24:18.119 this podcast, and you know, for those folks who say, like, 334 00:24:18.160 --> 00:24:22.039 why is it so woke? Now, you know, the first literal episode 335 00:24:22.160 --> 00:24:26.720 of Superman, some of the villains he deals with are a greedy landlord who's 336 00:24:26.759 --> 00:24:32.920 overcharging tenants because they have nowhere else to go, and a person who's you 337 00:24:32.920 --> 00:24:37.160 know, committing in him Department of violence against their spouse, and a man 338 00:24:37.200 --> 00:24:41.400 who's beating his wife, and like, those certainly aren't issues in our own 339 00:24:41.440 --> 00:24:44.799 world anymore, but they were they're very political now, and they were just 340 00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:48.440 a political then. Jack Kirby, I'm convinced, created Captain America because he 341 00:24:48.519 --> 00:24:52.519 wanted the US government to pay him to go over and punch Nazis in the 342 00:24:52.599 --> 00:24:55.880 army. And it was a nineteen thirty nine and we weren't fighting the Nazis 343 00:24:55.960 --> 00:24:59.519 yet, so he created a person who could punch Nazis because that's what he 344 00:24:59.559 --> 00:25:04.559 wanted to So yeah, and that's actually a great segment because there's a way 345 00:25:04.599 --> 00:25:07.759 in which I never really put this together, and I was listening to this 346 00:25:07.160 --> 00:25:14.359 these episodes again, there is a huge frustration I have with the comic book 347 00:25:14.440 --> 00:25:18.079 superhero genre that you guys are addressing in a way I've never really thought about 348 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.359 before it and I want to talk to you about it and wonder how much 349 00:25:21.400 --> 00:25:25.680 this is intentional, because, like take Captain America, Civil War probably my 350 00:25:25.759 --> 00:25:30.720 favorite comic movie, one of them, in part because I think the question 351 00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:34.720 of if people have the ability to use violence to do what they think is 352 00:25:34.799 --> 00:25:40.039 right, to what extent should they be accountable to others and what happens if 353 00:25:40.039 --> 00:25:45.279 that accountability isn't good accountability and the dangers of both sides, and what I 354 00:25:45.359 --> 00:25:49.160 want is Tony and Steve to sit in a room and debate it for two 355 00:25:49.160 --> 00:25:53.680 hours, but that doesn't sell tickets, and so instead one of them states 356 00:25:53.720 --> 00:25:56.200 their point and the other states their point, and then they start to punch 357 00:25:56.240 --> 00:26:03.119 each other. Or you know, T'Challa his idea about how a powerful black 358 00:26:03.200 --> 00:26:07.119 nation should act, and kill Monger has his idea, and they state it 359 00:26:07.160 --> 00:26:08.759 once or twice, and then they start punching each other because that's what looks 360 00:26:08.759 --> 00:26:15.640 good on screen and on comic book pages. You guys are telling a story 361 00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:22.319 about superheroes and supervillains and superpowered people where you have some cool sound effects every 362 00:26:22.319 --> 00:26:23.920 now and then, but you can't really do a fight scene. And so 363 00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:29.279 you're giving me kind of what I wanted there, and that it is all 364 00:26:29.359 --> 00:26:33.880 just the talking, it's all the lets. We don't have to put up 365 00:26:33.160 --> 00:26:37.240 a huge spectacle on screen, so we can just go so much deeper in 366 00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:41.400 those conversations, to what extent is that something that's been conscious in your head? 367 00:26:41.440 --> 00:26:45.720 Is it something you just kind of stumbled into, because it seems like 368 00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:48.440 such a brilliant part of this is that you can go deeper in a way 369 00:26:48.519 --> 00:26:52.079 that when it's on the page, or on the screen, and people are 370 00:26:52.079 --> 00:26:56.920 expecting the visual side of it that so often gets lost. Yeah, well, 371 00:26:56.920 --> 00:26:59.720 I mean, I mean something I like about comics is the ability to 372 00:27:00.079 --> 00:27:04.880 maintain a conversation through an action scene, right, Like that's that like uh, 373 00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:08.319 you know, but it's just that not everyone does it. But like, 374 00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:15.279 like you know, I mean Alan Moore doesn't like stop talking. Yeah, 375 00:27:15.960 --> 00:27:18.359 that's fair. I think we should say it's more about the on screen. 376 00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:22.559 Yeah, And I think that's for showing because like the it's it's a 377 00:27:22.640 --> 00:27:26.920 very corporatized model, right, like like the mcuth like like like these are 378 00:27:26.960 --> 00:27:32.960 these are products more than they are stories to a certain extent, right, 379 00:27:33.000 --> 00:27:37.720 and so having a like you know, it's it's like if you have to 380 00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.759 drop a character because it's not going to test well in China or they're not 381 00:27:41.799 --> 00:27:45.920 going to screen you in China, you're no longer making art, right, 382 00:27:45.119 --> 00:27:48.400 right, you are making a product. And I think that a lot of 383 00:27:48.400 --> 00:27:52.720 the filmmakers, like we're like Jack mentioned with like the haste code, it's 384 00:27:52.759 --> 00:27:56.519 like they find a way to insert it, right. But but but like 385 00:27:56.559 --> 00:28:03.440 they are overcoming the the the mission. And I think because Jack and I 386 00:28:03.480 --> 00:28:07.400 have no one can give us money or set the expectations for us. We 387 00:28:07.400 --> 00:28:14.039 get to just say things freely and like you maintain a viewpoint. I yeah, 388 00:28:14.079 --> 00:28:17.799 I think this season we are bringing a little bit more action in but 389 00:28:17.960 --> 00:28:22.559 it's audio, so it's it's like zip zip talk talk talk. It is. 390 00:28:22.680 --> 00:28:26.200 But you know, like a catchphrase we use for the show is, 391 00:28:26.440 --> 00:28:29.920 you know, these are the stories between the panels, you know, and 392 00:28:30.119 --> 00:28:33.440 it actually it actually goes on. I'll go on to say, like, 393 00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:37.559 you know, this is what happens after the punching is done and the hero 394 00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:41.039 flies away, because you know, as Max said, we're not beholding to 395 00:28:41.079 --> 00:28:47.279 Disney or anybody or even readers, like we're just gonna We're just gonna have 396 00:28:47.559 --> 00:28:52.119 these characters wind up where they wind up. You know. One of the 397 00:28:52.160 --> 00:28:56.160 big storylines that we have that we carry through is, you know, our 398 00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:00.519 our Superman analog cosmos. You know, he got deported last season and he's 399 00:29:00.200 --> 00:29:04.640 now on an island with a bunch of other people that have been rejected by 400 00:29:04.680 --> 00:29:10.359 the countries where they are from. And this question of and this isn't a 401 00:29:10.359 --> 00:29:14.359 spoiler, because we talked a lot about Magneto and sort of what would happen 402 00:29:14.400 --> 00:29:17.319 with him, because you know, we've seen a lot of evil Superman, 403 00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:23.480 but we've never seen We've never seen a Superman who's just kind of dealing with 404 00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:29.279 the consequences of his actions and just with how people treat him. And we 405 00:29:29.400 --> 00:29:33.559 had a lot of conversations about where this guy would end up, where is 406 00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:37.039 his head and what's going to happen because of it? Yeah, yeah, 407 00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:42.200 yeah, And the interesting thing about Superman to us is the restraint is the 408 00:29:42.440 --> 00:29:48.519 responsibility that he feels. But like, yeah, we experimented a lot with 409 00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:52.559 untethering that from the rule of law and like, like what happens when Superman 410 00:29:52.640 --> 00:29:57.599 gets to pursue his own idea of justice, which is like what the versions 411 00:29:57.599 --> 00:30:02.319 of Magneto we like best does. It's like, yeah, right, you 412 00:30:02.359 --> 00:30:04.599 know, if you know this is Malcolm X, like like what is the 413 00:30:07.160 --> 00:30:11.880 you know, just response not necessarily the lawful response? Yeah, no, 414 00:30:11.920 --> 00:30:14.559 I think that makes so much sense. I mean, especially as and you 415 00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:15.920 know, and there's a lot we actually did an episode recently on on the 416 00:30:17.039 --> 00:30:21.839 X Man and how the Malcolm x mart Luke King comparison doesn't always hold up 417 00:30:22.000 --> 00:30:26.720 directly, but it certainly does in terms of the American perception of those two 418 00:30:26.799 --> 00:30:29.319 characters. And that one thing I think is fascinating about the X Man is 419 00:30:29.359 --> 00:30:37.240 how the way Malcolm X was perceived by most of America in the sixties really 420 00:30:37.279 --> 00:30:41.680 reflected who malcol who Martino was today, who at then. You know, 421 00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:45.000 today a lot of people have read the autobiography of Malcolm X, like he's 422 00:30:45.000 --> 00:30:48.960 not seen as the villain, whereas Martin Luther King was the good guy, 423 00:30:48.359 --> 00:30:52.400 and and the perception of Magneto I think has changed in a lot of similar 424 00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:56.599 ways. And so yeah, it's it's I love how you can address those 425 00:30:56.599 --> 00:31:02.240 things and keep those stories going. And a big piece of that is also 426 00:31:02.599 --> 00:31:07.279 consequence. We try to make sure that if something happens, then we're gonna 427 00:31:07.319 --> 00:31:14.440 try try and take it to like it's more it's most natural and most dramatic 428 00:31:14.720 --> 00:31:18.839 point. Yeah, because you know, comics are super guilty of you know, 429 00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:25.319 these huge storylines will happen, and then because there's a change in editorial, 430 00:31:25.400 --> 00:31:27.440 like you know, it's all reset. Like I'm a huge fan of 431 00:31:27.480 --> 00:31:36.279 Tom King. His run on Batman was essentially a relationship drama between Batman and 432 00:31:36.359 --> 00:31:38.720 Catwoman where they get married and kind of one are the stresses of all of 433 00:31:38.799 --> 00:31:45.200 that. And I like his comics because he writes very adult storylines and not 434 00:31:45.279 --> 00:31:48.799 in the sense of adult there's nudity and gore and violence. It's more, 435 00:31:49.480 --> 00:31:53.079 well, here, here's something that's actually going to be interesting to you, 436 00:31:53.079 --> 00:32:00.240 you know, thirty five and up man. And then immediately after his run 437 00:32:00.279 --> 00:32:02.880 was done, they're like, no, this is not married anymore, like 438 00:32:04.000 --> 00:32:07.240 let's throw it all away. And we we're not going to do that. 439 00:32:07.720 --> 00:32:12.960 These these characters are going to change when something big happens, it's going to 440 00:32:13.000 --> 00:32:16.279 affect everyone. Yeah, and and and we try, I mean as hard 441 00:32:16.319 --> 00:32:21.200 as we can too people who I mean Season two was like three hundred and 442 00:32:21.200 --> 00:32:24.200 fifty pages. Uh so, but we try our best to maintain continuity. 443 00:32:24.559 --> 00:32:28.960 On my wall, I have a map of the US with little posted flags 444 00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:32.079 of every story rerun, just in case something happens in the area. It'd 445 00:32:32.119 --> 00:32:37.160 be like, oh wait, do what happened in this area in season one? 446 00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:39.599 Right? Like like like because you know, we said a story in 447 00:32:39.599 --> 00:32:45.240 the Southwest, We're like, okay, Hella Monster is the Legion hero. 448 00:32:45.400 --> 00:32:49.599 That's that's uh, you know, assigned to this district, and so what 449 00:32:49.640 --> 00:32:51.279 do we know about this? Like, like, how is that going to 450 00:32:51.319 --> 00:32:55.319 affect things, which is extremely annoying to do, and I do not recommend 451 00:32:55.359 --> 00:33:00.640 it for any creative just we get guys, it's it's all. So we 452 00:33:00.680 --> 00:33:05.480 are a two man team not only doing the business and the directing and the 453 00:33:05.640 --> 00:33:10.680 editing and the boys like just everything, and we just need like a writer's 454 00:33:10.680 --> 00:33:14.519 assistant. But again, we have no money, so we can't be like, 455 00:33:14.599 --> 00:33:17.759 come work for us for not even exposure. You'll just be working in 456 00:33:17.799 --> 00:33:22.359 the dark. I mean, I'm trying hard not to make myself volunteer for 457 00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.000 that role. But that's the story entirely. But no, I really get 458 00:33:25.000 --> 00:33:29.440 it, and I there's like five conversational directions I can take that in. 459 00:33:29.519 --> 00:33:31.559 But just just staying on this one more second. That line about the stories 460 00:33:31.599 --> 00:33:37.160 between the panels. For me, the thing that I've always been so fascinated 461 00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:42.480 by and where a lot of this podcast has gone, is that is what 462 00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:45.240 happens to people below the page. You know, what happens to the people 463 00:33:45.319 --> 00:33:50.319 who are affected by all this. And as you said, you know, 464 00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:52.960 if you're gonna pay Chris Hemsworth a huge amount of money, you're mostly going 465 00:33:53.000 --> 00:33:58.079 to keep him on stage. You're not going to have on screen. You 466 00:33:58.160 --> 00:34:01.119 might get the few moments that we've gotten the Avengers movies of a support group 467 00:34:01.160 --> 00:34:06.359 of people who were affected by the blip in the MCU, but that's not 468 00:34:06.400 --> 00:34:09.480 the main part of the story. And I just that as a sociologist, 469 00:34:09.599 --> 00:34:13.599 theologian and something like that, that's what's fascinating to me. You know, 470 00:34:14.119 --> 00:34:19.199 in The Boys, they do this really interesting plot line of a religion that 471 00:34:19.239 --> 00:34:22.000 would form and how that would change, and like you know, Zack Snetter 472 00:34:22.039 --> 00:34:27.039 Superman explored that for like five seconds but then moved on. But then I 473 00:34:27.119 --> 00:34:29.639 know you guys might understand it's gonna go deeper and things like that. I 474 00:34:29.719 --> 00:34:36.719 think there's just for me, there's something really fascinating about asking how would society 475 00:34:37.079 --> 00:34:40.320 change when these superhumans exist? And I just love to hear you talk more 476 00:34:40.360 --> 00:34:44.159 about kind of your thinking on that and how you're exploring that side of it. 477 00:34:44.480 --> 00:34:50.679 Yeah, Jack actually had a people worshiping Cosmos story that it still exists 478 00:34:50.960 --> 00:34:54.920 in a folder somewhere because I couldn't quite figure out the way to break it. 479 00:34:55.000 --> 00:34:59.199 But it was we were gonna it was a segment that was going to 480 00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:05.519 be about someone who is specifically writing about superhero cults and it was it was 481 00:35:05.599 --> 00:35:10.199 based on an interview I had heard somewhere on the radio with a woman who 482 00:35:10.280 --> 00:35:14.840 was who was talking about cult leaders, because I was, you know, 483 00:35:14.960 --> 00:35:20.440 it's a it's again I like you. I just I'm endlessly fascinated by Okay, 484 00:35:20.559 --> 00:35:24.760 who's like, who's the Rosencrantz and Gildenstern of this world? And what 485 00:35:24.960 --> 00:35:29.360 are the reactions to all that? One of my favorite you know, we 486 00:35:29.440 --> 00:35:32.920 had talked about The X Men. One of my favorite runs was The X 487 00:35:34.039 --> 00:35:38.400 Force, where a multiple man is a PI in mutant town and New York 488 00:35:38.519 --> 00:35:43.840 and you know, it's again it's the street level hero and you get to 489 00:35:43.920 --> 00:35:50.440 see how these mutants are getting treated and the issues and trials of their lives. 490 00:35:50.679 --> 00:35:53.960 And you know, they were lower stake stories and obviously we do hide 491 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:58.960 stake stories, but we also kind of delight and what are going to be 492 00:36:00.199 --> 00:36:05.880 you know, what's what's going to be the macro lens of what's going on 493 00:36:06.079 --> 00:36:09.679 in this world and we can go further and further to the ground and look 494 00:36:09.800 --> 00:36:15.599 up instead of being that person and the sky looking down. Yeah, and 495 00:36:15.920 --> 00:36:19.320 we also we have a lot of anime influences. I mean, you'll see 496 00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:22.800 traces of My hero and one Punchman on this. But something I really love 497 00:36:22.840 --> 00:36:30.559 about Attack on Titan is they will spend ninety seconds on a random apartment of 498 00:36:30.679 --> 00:36:34.920 characters you've never met, and it's just like a old woman teaching her granddaughter 499 00:36:35.000 --> 00:36:37.840 how to knit and there have finally getting their life back on track and then 500 00:36:38.000 --> 00:36:43.519 boom of, like a giant fist comes through and kills them all and what 501 00:36:43.719 --> 00:36:45.599 like when you zoom out, that's like every time a building gets destroyed, 502 00:36:46.280 --> 00:36:51.719 that's happening, right, Like you know we like you know nine to eleven 503 00:36:51.960 --> 00:36:54.599 was a week ago, and you know you hear these personal stories. When 504 00:36:54.639 --> 00:37:00.800 the tower felt like every individual life of there was a story and like and 505 00:37:00.920 --> 00:37:06.639 we never get them, and it makes the destruction feel so small. Right 506 00:37:06.679 --> 00:37:12.199 if you destroy a city of nobodies, I mean, what do they say, 507 00:37:12.280 --> 00:37:14.519 Like a person dies, it's a tragedy. A million people dies, 508 00:37:14.559 --> 00:37:19.039 it's a statistic, right, and it just like there's no emotional impact. 509 00:37:19.079 --> 00:37:22.400 But an Attacking Titan. You show that scene for a minute and then when 510 00:37:22.440 --> 00:37:29.199 that building goes down, like your heart just squeezes. Yeah. I had 511 00:37:29.239 --> 00:37:34.519 to take a break from that show because I I just can't take it anymore? 512 00:37:34.800 --> 00:37:39.480 Fatherhood huh Yeah. A long time ago. I used to love watching 513 00:37:39.599 --> 00:37:44.400 Law and Order and my views on the police and the way police retreated media. 514 00:37:44.400 --> 00:37:46.119 I've changed a lot, but but still one thing I always remember is 515 00:37:46.440 --> 00:37:51.639 they would always have like three to five minutes of either the people who are 516 00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:54.679 having this argument and they come across the dead body and or whatever it is, 517 00:37:54.719 --> 00:37:57.079 and it often feel like, no, no, I want to know 518 00:37:57.159 --> 00:37:59.960 more about that story, like what happened when you got back from the club, 519 00:38:00.239 --> 00:38:04.119 you know, like and it's such a cree thing, but you know, 520 00:38:04.199 --> 00:38:07.719 another one of my favorite segments you guys did in season one was about 521 00:38:07.880 --> 00:38:13.199 the people who have powers that aren't actually that useful and you're this great thing 522 00:38:13.239 --> 00:38:16.119 about a woman who can turn pickles back into cucumbers and things like that. 523 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:21.480 That's actually season two. Oh I'm sorry, you're right, it is season 524 00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.079 two, and I just I loved it because, like when I've talked to 525 00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.159 my friends about the X Men, that was always my comment was, how 526 00:38:28.280 --> 00:38:32.039 is it that these completely random genetic mutations always seem to be so useful in 527 00:38:32.119 --> 00:38:36.199 combat? You know? And what about the people, like if it is 528 00:38:36.239 --> 00:38:39.079 just random genetic mutation aren't some of them totally useless? And you guys normally 529 00:38:39.079 --> 00:38:44.039 addressed that we're talked about how that would be pretty devastating to find out you're 530 00:38:44.039 --> 00:38:49.480 a superhuman in a completely useless way. Yeah. Yeah, that second that 531 00:38:49.519 --> 00:38:54.079 actually used to be almost twice as long too, just really going into like, 532 00:38:54.639 --> 00:39:00.320 yeah, like like the idea that like if your superpowers you can jump 533 00:39:00.400 --> 00:39:05.639 six inches higher, you don't know you have a superher a superpower. You 534 00:39:05.719 --> 00:39:07.719 think you're really good at track and field, like you're great at basketball, 535 00:39:07.840 --> 00:39:12.599 you jump a foot and you go to the NBA you jump twenty feet and 536 00:39:12.679 --> 00:39:16.800 you're a superhero, And it's like that idea of degrees and how Yeah, 537 00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:22.079 I still I wish there's a way that that could have made the funnel draft. 538 00:39:22.119 --> 00:39:30.280 But but but yeah, just like these like small little like like like 539 00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:34.280 it's a complete world, right Like you look at you know, Savior School 540 00:39:34.320 --> 00:39:37.960 for the Gifted, and you know they're recruiting for their paramilitary force, right 541 00:39:38.719 --> 00:39:42.400 like, like you know, I'm sure that there's the person who can tell 542 00:39:42.440 --> 00:39:45.400 you how many pulls ceiling fan has before it turns off, But like you 543 00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:51.840 know they're not going to go in the blackbird. Yeah, well, and 544 00:39:51.880 --> 00:39:53.840 so let's start talking about season two, and I want to hear more about 545 00:39:54.000 --> 00:39:57.679 the overall process, but I want to start with how how I got a 546 00:39:57.719 --> 00:40:00.760 little bit involved with this, because I think it it really speaks to your 547 00:40:00.800 --> 00:40:05.480 writing process in a way that we talk about so often is missing. It's 548 00:40:05.519 --> 00:40:08.199 the idea of representation not only on screen but in the writer's room. Because 549 00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.199 and I and we'll talk much more about this in the future. I have 550 00:40:12.239 --> 00:40:15.679 another episode with these folks planned after a much later episode, which also for 551 00:40:15.719 --> 00:40:19.400 those of you who are wondering at you're yelling at your radios or your your 552 00:40:19.440 --> 00:40:22.760 podcast things of like forget about spoilers, Matthew, you asked them more about 553 00:40:22.800 --> 00:40:24.719 upcoming storylines. We'll get to talk to you much more about the upcom storylines 554 00:40:24.719 --> 00:40:28.519 when we do that. But the reason we're doing that is because I know 555 00:40:28.760 --> 00:40:31.199 that disability is going to be a theme you explore. And I know that 556 00:40:31.360 --> 00:40:35.920 because you all approached me a disabled person and asked me to kind of like 557 00:40:35.960 --> 00:40:37.440 look at the script and look at some of these ideas and talk with you 558 00:40:37.519 --> 00:40:44.000 through it, which I really loved and talking to you more like my understanding 559 00:40:44.079 --> 00:40:45.400 is that yeah, when you cover transisues, you like, reached out to 560 00:40:45.440 --> 00:40:50.000 people in that community and things like that. That is something that so often 561 00:40:50.119 --> 00:40:52.239 is missing and that will often hear. You know, you'll look at a 562 00:40:52.320 --> 00:40:55.440 character and people from a community will be like, clearly they didn't like that 563 00:40:55.719 --> 00:41:00.000 character was written by people who don't understand that community. Talk to us about 564 00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:06.119 like how that was a part of your writing process and why I think it's 565 00:41:07.480 --> 00:41:08.920 well, personally, you know, I come from a film background, so 566 00:41:09.000 --> 00:41:13.440 I've like been around writers and I've her into how they've run rooms. But 567 00:41:13.519 --> 00:41:19.159 it's also just we're two straight white guys, and you know, you can 568 00:41:19.199 --> 00:41:22.239 come up with a great idea for a story, and you can there's nothing 569 00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:28.519 that stops you from imagining somebody who's you know, LGBT or you know who 570 00:41:28.679 --> 00:41:31.400 who is disabled. But then once you're going to put that story out into 571 00:41:31.440 --> 00:41:36.239 the world, you know you're also representing those people, and if you have 572 00:41:36.480 --> 00:41:40.880 zero input from them, it just you know, it does not take much 573 00:41:42.239 --> 00:41:45.800 to make sure that you were doing right by a community by reaching out. 574 00:41:46.000 --> 00:41:51.519 You know, we have people in our writer's room this season who were queer 575 00:41:51.679 --> 00:41:55.960 who gave us feedback on stories that you know that weren't overtly queer, but 576 00:41:57.199 --> 00:42:02.679 dealt with those storylines and they certainly weighed in on them. It's just it's 577 00:42:02.920 --> 00:42:07.239 it. It's it's the way people should do it. It just it feels 578 00:42:07.239 --> 00:42:08.599 like this should be common practice these days. Well, you know, I 579 00:42:08.679 --> 00:42:14.639 think there was this toxic thing that went around uh studio execs in like twenty 580 00:42:14.719 --> 00:42:17.480 fifteen is when I first remember hearing it, the uh this idea of right 581 00:42:17.559 --> 00:42:22.119 what you know, but they misinterpreted it. They're like, oh, you're 582 00:42:22.119 --> 00:42:24.960 a banker, you should write about banking, Like like this is great, 583 00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:29.960 you have a life. Like it's like because the idea isn't that you can 584 00:42:30.079 --> 00:42:35.239 only write things that you yourself have lived. It's that when you write something, 585 00:42:35.679 --> 00:42:38.679 you should be knowledgeable in it and you it should be a in conversation 586 00:42:38.760 --> 00:42:44.599 with people who, like, who have lived those experiences in order to bring 587 00:42:44.679 --> 00:42:45.440 it to life. I mean, because not everyone's a writer, but you 588 00:42:45.480 --> 00:42:49.880 know, everyone has, you know, distinct viewpoints and perspectives and it's important 589 00:42:49.880 --> 00:42:52.159 to collect those as you're as you're writing things. And I love that, 590 00:42:52.280 --> 00:42:55.320 like you know, and like you know, we try also, like in 591 00:42:55.440 --> 00:43:00.199 casting, to like make sure that we create opportunities for uh, actors of 592 00:43:00.559 --> 00:43:05.239 all walks of life, and really like as we're going, just like you 593 00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:09.079 know, uh, whenever I direct someone, I always like try to like 594 00:43:09.199 --> 00:43:13.639 check in, like even regional things like like when A characters from the South 595 00:43:14.440 --> 00:43:16.880 in places I've never been in it like is this fog horn? Like horn? 596 00:43:17.079 --> 00:43:22.000 Is this? Like did I just did I hear this in the Looney 597 00:43:22.039 --> 00:43:24.480 Tunes and write this down? Like how would you say this? And you 598 00:43:24.519 --> 00:43:29.360 know, just fine tuning it, yeah, because when I mean, you 599 00:43:29.400 --> 00:43:31.360 know, it's when doesn't hit, it's just a minstrels show, like it's 600 00:43:31.400 --> 00:43:36.599 not like, yeah, it's not substantive. And I love how you're talking 601 00:43:36.599 --> 00:43:39.079 about that with a really both hand perspective, because like, yeah, you're 602 00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:45.360 right the right what you know can sometimes me so no more like learn more 603 00:43:45.400 --> 00:43:49.119 about something before trying to write about it. But also I think sometimes that 604 00:43:49.199 --> 00:43:52.880 can be Oh, I've got a trans friend and I read one book about 605 00:43:52.039 --> 00:43:55.159 being trans, so now I know how to write trans people. And I 606 00:43:55.280 --> 00:43:59.840 like what you guys are saying of that. Both you want to educate yourself 607 00:44:00.440 --> 00:44:04.159 so that you know more, but then also you're bringing those people into the 608 00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:07.599 writing room and they're writers, not just you know, your friend who had 609 00:44:07.639 --> 00:44:10.920 one conversation with Yeah. Yeah, it's just like, yeah, you know, 610 00:44:10.960 --> 00:44:14.719 I guess the party didn't say. It's like, if you just write 611 00:44:14.719 --> 00:44:17.840 what you know and you stay in your box, then like, you know, 612 00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:22.480 guys like us will only write boring stories about straight white dudes no thank 613 00:44:22.519 --> 00:44:27.000 you, which is a lot of what we get right exactly, you know, 614 00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.880 yeah, because of the way the note is usually assigned to people, 615 00:44:30.280 --> 00:44:37.480 but it's also just it's an opportunity for different voices. My favorite segment on 616 00:44:37.920 --> 00:44:43.840 this season period is in the next episode, and it is one that someone 617 00:44:43.880 --> 00:44:49.320 else pitched and wrote, and it's a writer named Rachel Music. She's working 618 00:44:49.400 --> 00:44:54.480 with Max on another series right now called Josie and Josie's Onely Hearts Club Joe's 619 00:44:54.519 --> 00:44:59.599 Josie's Lonely Hearts Club, and she she had heard the show. She approached 620 00:44:59.679 --> 00:45:07.320 Max at the Catalyst Festival. She's become part of our writing team and she's 621 00:45:07.400 --> 00:45:12.599 just she's one of those strongest writers that we have. And again, like 622 00:45:13.239 --> 00:45:16.719 one of my favorite favorite pieces like it came out of her and had we 623 00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:21.559 not thought like, hey, we need women in the writings room, because 624 00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:25.719 it's otherwise it's just me and Max making unblinking eye contact for like days, 625 00:45:27.440 --> 00:45:32.199 which you know, some gold nuggets come out of but there is there's a 626 00:45:32.280 --> 00:45:37.880 lot of dry poop that falls out of there as well. So there we 627 00:45:37.920 --> 00:45:43.400 are forty seven minutes in before Jack mentioned poop. This is a miracle our 628 00:45:43.480 --> 00:45:45.440 recording sessions. When he does his parts, it's this poop poop, poop, 629 00:45:45.440 --> 00:45:49.920 poop poop. And no, it's not poop, it's specifically my armpit 630 00:45:50.000 --> 00:45:52.760 butthole. Yes, I was trying, which is a piece of relationship lore 631 00:45:53.119 --> 00:45:58.119 between me and my wife that's somehow bled into our recording sessions. Oh my 632 00:45:58.199 --> 00:46:05.960 goodness. So moving back to it's awesome. I love it. But yeah, 633 00:46:06.000 --> 00:46:08.360 I love that idea, the process and so so talk more about in 634 00:46:08.440 --> 00:46:12.719 writing season two. I imagine there's a lot of lessons learned from season one. 635 00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:15.760 What did you learn after doing it that you wanted to kind of either 636 00:46:15.840 --> 00:46:17.519 like, oh, let's do more of that in season two, or maybe 637 00:46:17.559 --> 00:46:21.960 this was like we could have done this better differently, or what was that 638 00:46:22.039 --> 00:46:24.480 process, Like would you learn from doing the first season of this? So 639 00:46:25.079 --> 00:46:31.320 a big piece was we kind of had a main character in Stephen Singh, 640 00:46:31.360 --> 00:46:39.400 who's our newsreader and spoilers. He dies and he's essentially we knew we wanted 641 00:46:39.519 --> 00:46:45.280 a sort of death of Superman storyline for the first season, which I will 642 00:46:45.320 --> 00:46:49.800 admit was kind of for the shock factor. We we decided it was going 643 00:46:49.840 --> 00:46:52.159 to be somebody's voice who our audience was going to hear all the time, 644 00:46:52.960 --> 00:47:00.320 and through killing this character off and it became this kind of big tipping point 645 00:47:00.440 --> 00:47:02.840 for the world and the politics of the world, we decided, Okay, 646 00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.400 we need We're gonna need main characters. We're gonna need somebody that folks can 647 00:47:07.599 --> 00:47:10.840 grab onto. I mean, one of my favorite characters on the show was 648 00:47:10.840 --> 00:47:15.400 whiz Kid, and you know he doesn't essentially have a story right now, 649 00:47:15.519 --> 00:47:20.519 so we wanted to go back figure out, Okay, who's the heart of 650 00:47:20.559 --> 00:47:27.079 the show, and we it was a throwaway line that Stephen Singh had two 651 00:47:27.159 --> 00:47:30.599 daughters, and we had just it was something I wrote in a little bit 652 00:47:30.760 --> 00:47:34.760 of Hey, it's even worse that this guy died because he has kids. 653 00:47:35.360 --> 00:47:37.960 But then we were talking like, oh, where's season two going to go? 654 00:47:37.039 --> 00:47:40.280 Who are we going to follow? We had started thinking about, Okay, 655 00:47:40.519 --> 00:47:44.639 this act is going to come this, the Superacts coming coming out. 656 00:47:45.199 --> 00:47:47.119 You know, there's gonna be pro registration, there's going to be people are 657 00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:52.320 Auntie, and we've we've decided that his daughters are essentially going to be on 658 00:47:52.440 --> 00:47:55.039 different sides of this issue. So you're going to meet a poor of a 659 00:47:55.159 --> 00:48:04.159 Singh who is Stephen's eldest daughter who works for spr and is balancing her life 660 00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:07.519 of being a reporter with her feelings towards what's happening in the world. And 661 00:48:07.880 --> 00:48:13.440 his youngest daughter too. He's saying, who as an activist, And we 662 00:48:13.599 --> 00:48:16.679 don't because we like to present the world. We don't like just saying like, 663 00:48:16.800 --> 00:48:21.719 hey, here's the main character. You're following them. Now they we 664 00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:25.039 kind of slowly get to know them, and you know this isn't spoilers through 665 00:48:25.079 --> 00:48:30.360 the season, but you know, really everything's going to revolve around these two 666 00:48:30.840 --> 00:48:35.800 young women, and especially as we go into season three. Yeah, and 667 00:48:35.920 --> 00:48:38.840 especially as we go into season three, but it became, you know, 668 00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:43.360 we started caring about these characters more. And yeah, well, I mean, 669 00:48:43.440 --> 00:48:45.199 I mean, I mean that was really huge for us, because you 670 00:48:45.280 --> 00:48:51.239 know, the first season is very anthology based for the most part, but 671 00:48:51.599 --> 00:48:53.039 yeah, I mean, you know, because like we do like we have 672 00:48:53.119 --> 00:48:57.199 these big emotional beats, but then we weave the characters for the most part, 673 00:48:57.639 --> 00:49:01.519 and we found that we tended to miss them and like yeah, and 674 00:49:01.960 --> 00:49:07.280 that like, you know, because we are telling a fictional story that like, 675 00:49:07.760 --> 00:49:10.960 yeah, this like we wanted to find more ways to make it, 676 00:49:14.519 --> 00:49:19.280 uh, and to to find an overarching narrative and like you know, as 677 00:49:19.360 --> 00:49:22.360 Jack was saying, like like like to make it about characters that we carry 678 00:49:22.400 --> 00:49:24.719 back and come back to, but also have storylines that really feel like you're 679 00:49:24.840 --> 00:49:30.320 progressing as you listen to it. And so uh, season two definitely listened 680 00:49:30.320 --> 00:49:34.920 to it in order there's gonna be some really cool stuff that happens as the 681 00:49:34.960 --> 00:49:37.920 season progresses. No, and I think I'm really interested in that that as 682 00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:42.079 well. First of all, it's one thing I noticed with Stephen Stephens saying 683 00:49:42.119 --> 00:49:45.440 when I was listening to it is because here again how representation matters in a 684 00:49:45.480 --> 00:49:49.440 way that you don't have to lambshade it. You know, that last name 685 00:49:49.599 --> 00:49:52.760 sounds South Asian, but it's not a character beat at all. And then 686 00:49:52.880 --> 00:49:57.880 when I heard his daughter's names mentioned and they both also were South Asian, 687 00:49:57.960 --> 00:50:00.719 I was like, oh, that is just such again, a brilliant part 688 00:50:00.920 --> 00:50:07.800 of just making this feel like a real part of our world. And here 689 00:50:07.800 --> 00:50:08.960 I want to it's such a brilliant part of it, and I don't want 690 00:50:08.960 --> 00:50:10.800 to spoil anything, so I'm gonna be as vague as I can. Here. 691 00:50:12.480 --> 00:50:15.920 In the first season, you have someone call into your Car Talk story 692 00:50:16.880 --> 00:50:22.519 where it sounds like something bad happens on air to that person and you're not 693 00:50:22.679 --> 00:50:25.800 sure about it. And then I heard in the trailer that that storyline is 694 00:50:25.840 --> 00:50:29.480 get further explored, and I was like, oh, that is so cool. 695 00:50:30.159 --> 00:50:35.559 How you know, because yeah, it made me wonder and I might 696 00:50:35.639 --> 00:50:38.119 google this at some point or maybe you know, like has anybody ever called 697 00:50:38.159 --> 00:50:45.760 in to I guess probably not because it's no like it maybe wonder like has 698 00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:50.800 anyone ever called in like while they were driving to click and clack it and 699 00:50:50.880 --> 00:50:53.719 then like people heard an accident happened on air or something terrible like that? 700 00:50:53.880 --> 00:51:00.119 Oh my god, probably probably not on car Talk nothing but that dramatic and 701 00:51:00.400 --> 00:51:02.519 we can talk about it, so we have a well we can. It 702 00:51:02.599 --> 00:51:06.800 doesn't spoil anything. Yeah, I guess it's in the season two trailer. 703 00:51:06.960 --> 00:51:09.840 But so look, if you're if you haven't listened to episode four of season 704 00:51:09.920 --> 00:51:16.119 one, stop now, go over. Listen to it. A short episode 705 00:51:16.159 --> 00:51:21.679 to like twenty minutes long, but it's it's essentially our World's Robin, you 706 00:51:21.760 --> 00:51:28.039 know, stole the batmobile and he calls into the to the show asking for 707 00:51:28.159 --> 00:51:32.960 help, and then you know it disappears under mysterious circumstances and a new segment 708 00:51:34.039 --> 00:51:36.840 on the show, which you know, we had tried to figure out how 709 00:51:36.880 --> 00:51:38.440 to do on the first season, but we just we never could find the 710 00:51:38.599 --> 00:51:45.119 end. And after writing that, segments like, oh, our show on 711 00:51:45.239 --> 00:51:51.280 Cereal should be about this this young sidekick who disappears and what happened to him. 712 00:51:51.559 --> 00:51:53.320 Yeah, I mean, I mean essentially we're doing you know, Jason 713 00:51:53.400 --> 00:51:59.320 Todd Yeah, yeah, right, and as our version of Cereal, which 714 00:51:59.360 --> 00:52:02.440 is a lot of fun. And Jack wrote these four episodes and uh, 715 00:52:02.880 --> 00:52:07.280 they are so good and the build is so satisfying, and it was just 716 00:52:07.360 --> 00:52:12.239 like introduces his true crime into the season, which is just a lot of 717 00:52:12.360 --> 00:52:19.000 fun. Got it so much him. Yeah yeah, And also like I 718 00:52:19.000 --> 00:52:23.000 don't know, just like on on on the Stephen sing diversity thing, it's 719 00:52:23.039 --> 00:52:28.679 like, you know, Sean Ahmed who plays Stephen sing is great and we 720 00:52:28.760 --> 00:52:31.280 hated killing him off because he's like one of the best supporters of our show 721 00:52:31.400 --> 00:52:36.039 works all the time, does Hallmark Movies? Great actor he was, he 722 00:52:36.159 --> 00:52:38.559 was in the expanse. Yeah, And when he told me that, I 723 00:52:38.679 --> 00:52:43.639 was like, wait And he told and his scene is you know, he 724 00:52:43.760 --> 00:52:49.559 plays uh, he's he's a character actor, you know, and I remembered 725 00:52:49.639 --> 00:52:51.679 his scene, like his scene popped down. I was like, oh my 726 00:52:51.840 --> 00:52:54.679 god, we got that guy. Yeah, yeah, no, it was 727 00:52:54.719 --> 00:52:58.800 great. But but when we cast his daughter's uh, you know, we 728 00:52:58.920 --> 00:53:04.960 we we heard a lot of Indian American actresses and it was actually God, 729 00:53:05.000 --> 00:53:07.840 I have such mixed feelings about it. But like, uh, like whenever 730 00:53:07.960 --> 00:53:10.599 we did the cold reads and auditions and when I brought them in, they're 731 00:53:10.599 --> 00:53:13.159 like, so, like do you want the accent? I was like, 732 00:53:13.639 --> 00:53:16.960 why you grew up here? And and just like the look of relief on 733 00:53:17.039 --> 00:53:21.719 their face. Yeah. Like it's just like because you know, I mean, 734 00:53:22.639 --> 00:53:27.320 you know, we don't cast people for their diversity for the most part, 735 00:53:27.400 --> 00:53:30.239 but like you we try to get down to people from a mix of 736 00:53:30.320 --> 00:53:35.480 different places. But it's like, you know, because they're legitimate perspectives matter, 737 00:53:35.639 --> 00:53:37.559 not because we want to do like well say, characters and it's so 738 00:53:37.840 --> 00:53:40.679 good. It makes it so big. That's why we have so many actors. 739 00:53:42.280 --> 00:53:45.440 Yeah, but also, you know, the context helps there might be 740 00:53:45.559 --> 00:53:49.480 something that we wrote that was wrong. And also we found a lot of 741 00:53:49.840 --> 00:53:52.880 you know, we found a lot of really talented women through this who we 742 00:53:53.320 --> 00:53:57.840 you know, cast in other roles outside of these two leading roles. And 743 00:53:58.039 --> 00:54:00.719 probably one of our favorite voices of the season came from this casting call. 744 00:54:00.800 --> 00:54:06.880 And I don't know if she would have auditioned for the show and Jolly Jolly 745 00:54:07.760 --> 00:54:13.480 she disappears and what is her last name? Yeah? No, she has 746 00:54:13.480 --> 00:54:15.960 some move of sixty three people in the okay, so Max is going to 747 00:54:16.000 --> 00:54:20.800 look up her last name. Anyways, This this woman who auditioned for us 748 00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:24.679 specifically because we were looking for, you know, women of Indian descent. 749 00:54:25.519 --> 00:54:30.559 She came in and throughout the season when she plays characters, I yeah, 750 00:54:30.559 --> 00:54:35.039 because I'm pretty removed from the editing program, I would always ask Max, 751 00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:37.920 wait, which actress is this, and you'd be like, it's in Jolly, 752 00:54:37.039 --> 00:54:45.360 and she would just vanish into a role yeah, and Jolly Corona. 753 00:54:45.519 --> 00:54:49.239 Yeah, and like like like try to listen to her voice without falling a 754 00:54:49.280 --> 00:54:52.760 little bit in love with her, like it's tough and and but she plays 755 00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:59.559 a good spread throughout. She has a really good part in episode seven. 756 00:55:00.199 --> 00:55:04.440 And I do think that way you're talking about that is so important because yeah, 757 00:55:04.599 --> 00:55:06.320 like it'd be great to get, you know, if you do a 758 00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:09.519 story that is mirroring something happening in South Asia or India or Pakistan or whatever, 759 00:55:09.800 --> 00:55:13.239 to get actors from that world to do it, but that they don't 760 00:55:13.239 --> 00:55:15.360 have to you know, like I, and that their story doesn't have to 761 00:55:15.440 --> 00:55:20.199 be about that. You can have a story about a reporter who is an 762 00:55:20.280 --> 00:55:22.760 Indian man, but that's not what the story is about. I, you 763 00:55:22.840 --> 00:55:27.920 know, growing up recognizing that was bisexual when I was like sixteen or so, 764 00:55:28.239 --> 00:55:30.840 you know, And I was growing up in the eighties and nineties, 765 00:55:30.000 --> 00:55:35.199 and it was great at first that gay man and queer man were finally appearing 766 00:55:35.400 --> 00:55:37.679 on screen, but they were all dying of aids, which was, yes, 767 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.719 a very real story. But I still remember how important it was to 768 00:55:40.760 --> 00:55:45.280 me when that there was a queer man who was on screen, but his 769 00:55:45.400 --> 00:55:49.440 queerness wasn't his character arc. His character art was about something different. It 770 00:55:49.559 --> 00:55:52.400 just happened to be that the person he went home to was a man instead 771 00:55:52.440 --> 00:55:54.639 of a woman. And so I think the way you're doing that makes so 772 00:55:54.719 --> 00:55:58.320 much sense. Yeah, I mean, I mean I live in New York, 773 00:55:58.719 --> 00:56:00.760 right, I mean, like, like I look at the like WNYC 774 00:56:00.960 --> 00:56:05.559 news team or any of the TV news team, and it's a big mix 775 00:56:05.639 --> 00:56:07.480 of people, right, And it's like it's just our desire to make the 776 00:56:07.559 --> 00:56:13.320 world feel authentic, right, Like we need a giant mix of human beings. 777 00:56:13.639 --> 00:56:15.880 Like and also like this is what my wife talks about a lot a 778 00:56:15.960 --> 00:56:23.480 lot of older actors too, which it feels weird that they don't that people 779 00:56:23.639 --> 00:56:30.079 just aren't casting older actors as protagonists and things like I don't know how important 780 00:56:30.079 --> 00:56:32.519 it is for them to be sexy in like a horror movie. Yeah, 781 00:56:34.360 --> 00:56:37.280 because like there's some such good talent out there and they're bored as hell. 782 00:56:38.920 --> 00:56:44.719 They're just so bored doing like old person parts yea, instead of just like 783 00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:50.920 parts. Yeah, we stold a sense anything else I want to not do 784 00:56:51.079 --> 00:56:52.719 too much more of our time, And in our members only section, we're 785 00:56:52.719 --> 00:56:58.000 going to talk about a different part of geekiness that I wonder if it's impacted 786 00:56:58.039 --> 00:57:00.039 how you do your world building, because it's certainly what I thought of. 787 00:57:00.840 --> 00:57:02.599 But just for kind of like wrapping up, Is there any other last things 788 00:57:02.599 --> 00:57:07.760 you guys want to say about lessons learned from season one or things and how 789 00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:09.440 the plays into season two, or to other stuff that about season two you 790 00:57:09.519 --> 00:57:14.800 want to get get into. I mean, one big thing out of season 791 00:57:14.880 --> 00:57:17.880 one is we made the decision to go bigger. We wanted to, like, 792 00:57:19.119 --> 00:57:21.760 you know, everything was in world and we told like these quiet little 793 00:57:21.800 --> 00:57:24.079 stories throughout, but like at the end of it, it's like, you 794 00:57:24.159 --> 00:57:27.920 know, we're in total control of this. We could do whatever the hell 795 00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:31.559 we want, Like let's let's like up the anti end and yo, it 796 00:57:31.679 --> 00:57:36.159 created so much more work for us. Season two is one hundred pages longer 797 00:57:36.239 --> 00:57:42.199 than season one was, and like a bunch more characters, a bunch more 798 00:57:43.039 --> 00:57:46.559 like set pieces and things like that. And it's so fun the fact that 799 00:57:46.639 --> 00:57:55.079 we just like let ourselves like go off, that's awesome. Jack. It's 800 00:57:55.199 --> 00:58:00.079 just I would say for season two, it's just it's more serialized. You 801 00:58:00.119 --> 00:58:04.480 know, we we really wanted season one to feel a little bit more variety 802 00:58:04.599 --> 00:58:07.719 show. There's obviously an a story, but for this second season, we 803 00:58:08.639 --> 00:58:15.760 the story definitely takes bigger swings episode to episode, and certainly from our first 804 00:58:15.840 --> 00:58:19.039 half and the second half, because we're gonna have a two episode break where 805 00:58:19.760 --> 00:58:22.440 me and Max are going to interview each other about behind the scenes and things 806 00:58:22.519 --> 00:58:27.000 we might not have told each other about and sort of the inspiration of the 807 00:58:27.039 --> 00:58:30.000 show, and it'll be about the podcasts that have inspired it, and then 808 00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:36.280 another episode that's just absolutely about the comics that inspired it and mostly that exists. 809 00:58:36.320 --> 00:58:38.800 So Max gets a break because if he hasn't said it, he's our 810 00:58:38.920 --> 00:58:45.039 series director and editor as well as the co producers, so he wears a 811 00:58:45.119 --> 00:58:51.239 lot of hats and needs he needs time. Yeah, I'm I'm we are 812 00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:57.039 we really season. We release episode two on Wednesday of this week, and 813 00:58:57.480 --> 00:59:00.880 I have the first six done and then there's another six episodes that are not 814 00:59:01.480 --> 00:59:06.239 quite done, and so those are two weeks. It couldn't be great. 815 00:59:07.079 --> 00:59:08.880 I understand that. I understand it. Well, Yeah, it is really 816 00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:13.639 wonderful what you're doing with it. It's like I'll say, there's kind of 817 00:59:13.719 --> 00:59:16.000 especially about the directing part, like in terms of like the music and things 818 00:59:16.039 --> 00:59:20.400 like that. One thing I think is so interesting. I'm also a liberal 819 00:59:20.440 --> 00:59:24.320 I'm a New Yorker, I'm a lifelong NPR listener, and I love that 820 00:59:24.440 --> 00:59:31.320 you managed to poke gentle fun at some of the NPR things without it becoming 821 00:59:31.440 --> 00:59:36.079 satire, without I mean it's satire, but without it becoming mockery. Like 822 00:59:36.760 --> 00:59:39.880 there are times where the music is like every now and then I'll kind of 823 00:59:39.960 --> 00:59:43.599 roll my eyes a little the way I roll my eyes about that music during 824 00:59:43.639 --> 00:59:45.559 an NPR segment. But I'm also there are other times where the music is 825 00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:50.880 just it's having the effect on me that the music during NPR has, and 826 00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:53.400 I'm just like, oh, that's it's such a hard line to walk that 827 00:59:53.519 --> 00:59:58.079 it's it's tribute to NPR as much as it's poking gentle fun of it, 828 00:59:58.360 --> 01:00:01.519 but also it's just recreation that in ways that I just think are are brilliant. 829 01:00:01.800 --> 01:00:06.159 Yeah. Thanks, I mean, we love comics, we love NPR, 830 01:00:06.880 --> 01:00:08.880 we hate the world, and so NPR so so so so our show, 831 01:00:09.000 --> 01:00:12.440 like you know, on satirizes the things we hate using the things we 832 01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:15.119 love. Yeah. I love that. I love how you do that well. 833 01:00:15.280 --> 01:00:19.920 And that's maybe my last question. You're doing this all in NPR and 834 01:00:19.960 --> 01:00:22.480 showing us what NPR is like and I hope you stick with that. But 835 01:00:22.639 --> 01:00:29.840 will we ever have like play a moment from the CNN of your world or 836 01:00:29.960 --> 01:00:32.400 of the like the have a segment about well we all know that, you 837 01:00:32.440 --> 01:00:38.000 know, Blonde Vanity gave a speech last night, like yeah, talk about 838 01:00:38.039 --> 01:00:42.440 that. Uh. Well, it was a Patreon exclusive with season one, 839 01:00:42.519 --> 01:00:45.480 but we released it on April Fool's Day. We have an episode from The 840 01:00:45.559 --> 01:00:52.039 Villainous League news on our street. Uh, and you can hear great shows 841 01:00:52.079 --> 01:00:59.880 such as Wait Wait, Don't Kill Me and Frocks and Friends and yeah, 842 01:01:00.039 --> 01:01:04.719 yeah, it's It's episode thirteen. Is that what we called it. It's 843 01:01:04.719 --> 01:01:07.320 a It's Episode thirteen live from VLN. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So 844 01:01:07.400 --> 01:01:14.039 we have that a little bit. And you know, our third season is 845 01:01:14.159 --> 01:01:19.639 going to shift perspectives a lot a little bit when we get there. Uh 846 01:01:20.920 --> 01:01:25.519 we can't say how, yeah, but you'll you'll understand why by the end 847 01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:31.920 of the amount of work that we give ourselves and specifically we're gonna just dogpile 848 01:01:32.000 --> 01:01:37.079 on Max in season three is going to be so big but so worth it. 849 01:01:37.639 --> 01:01:40.320 I love it, I love I can't wait. And for those people 850 01:01:40.400 --> 01:01:44.000 who are hearing about you guys for the first time now, which want to 851 01:01:44.039 --> 01:01:47.000 hear more. First of all, tell us how we can find superhero Let 852 01:01:47.000 --> 01:01:51.880 me, first of all tell us how we can find Superhuman Public Radio, 853 01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:54.039 but then also how we can find some of the other creative projects or our 854 01:01:54.039 --> 01:01:59.119 commentary of places that that Max and Gen are up to. Sure, Superhuman 855 01:01:59.239 --> 01:02:02.199 Public Radio if you just search for that on any place you get your podcasts. 856 01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:07.599 Also, spr pod is all of our social head handles. It's our 857 01:02:07.639 --> 01:02:15.519 website sprpod dot com. And we're also like doing some like social media stuff. 858 01:02:15.800 --> 01:02:17.639 The season will behind the scenes and stuff you follow us on TikTok and 859 01:02:17.679 --> 01:02:22.960 in stuff. Yeah, Jack keeps saying I need to make a website for 860 01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:29.840 things. Yeah, yeah, you can hear me and Walter h go inside 861 01:02:29.920 --> 01:02:34.639 QAnon and uh, you know, mock Moms for Liberty and Matt Gates and 862 01:02:34.679 --> 01:02:38.440 folks to their Face. We have a show coming up called We Are Not 863 01:02:38.639 --> 01:02:45.440 Journalists, which does in depth dives from people who are asking the question journalists 864 01:02:45.480 --> 01:02:51.840 are too smart to ask and uh on Good Story Guild coming January, we 865 01:02:51.920 --> 01:02:58.599 have Josie's Womanly Hearts Club, which is a fake am romance love guru show 866 01:02:59.079 --> 01:03:01.679 with a bunch of improvis that I throw with the host and it's a lot 867 01:03:01.760 --> 01:03:07.639 of fun. That is conjunction with series writer Rachel Music. Yeah, who 868 01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:12.320 is pretty much the star of episode two, which comes out this Wednesday. 869 01:03:12.440 --> 01:03:15.719 Yeah awesome. We're recording this about a week and a half before this episode 870 01:03:15.719 --> 01:03:20.239 will come out last Wednesday. All that stuff will be upable by the time 871 01:03:20.280 --> 01:03:22.960 this all comes out. Yeah, and if you want to find me, 872 01:03:22.119 --> 01:03:28.679 just look me up at J and d i V. Pretty much anywhere this 873 01:03:28.880 --> 01:03:32.960 winter. I will be coming out with my friends comedy special, which I 874 01:03:34.480 --> 01:03:38.800 directed and produced over the summer. Yeah awesome. J N d I V. 875 01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:45.880 That's John Nelson Dorsey, the fourth J and d I V. Did 876 01:03:45.920 --> 01:03:47.920 you just get that? No, I've just thought it would be useful for 877 01:03:47.960 --> 01:03:52.880 people who can't like, if you spell like something in front of a toddler, 878 01:03:52.000 --> 01:03:54.320 I won't get it, And so I thought it'd be useful for people 879 01:03:54.480 --> 01:03:59.960 with auditory processing issues that you know, just saddler letters. What a guy 880 01:04:00.199 --> 01:04:01.679 just say six random letters at people and they're like, oh, yeah, 881 01:04:01.679 --> 01:04:06.639 I'll follow your gens. Dan like, yeah, I'm on the internet. 882 01:04:06.639 --> 01:04:11.719 You can you can find me. You know, my phone name is Matthew 883 01:04:12.079 --> 01:04:18.559 Davis McCreery. Fox and so my on my email my personal stuff. I'm 884 01:04:18.599 --> 01:04:21.400 not gonna tell you the whole of it, but it includes the words M 885 01:04:21.719 --> 01:04:28.320 D M Fox, which is what makes sense. But I've realized some people 886 01:04:28.320 --> 01:04:30.920 are like, wait, when did you become a medical doctor? It's medical 887 01:04:30.000 --> 01:04:34.519 doctor Matthew Fox, Like no, no, not what this is about. 888 01:04:34.559 --> 01:04:38.719 Well, thank you both so much. And to our listeners, what do 889 01:04:38.800 --> 01:04:41.079 you all think? Like? Have you listened to this? Are you NPR 890 01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:44.320 fans? What do you think some of the storylines we're talking about. Love 891 01:04:44.360 --> 01:04:46.159 to get your comments and feedback. You can find all the ways to contact 892 01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:49.280 us in the show notes. All the ways to contact them and all their 893 01:04:49.280 --> 01:04:53.239 stuff is in the show notes as well. Check it out. And of 894 01:04:53.320 --> 01:04:56.400 course, the best thing you can do is become a member. Members for 895 01:04:56.440 --> 01:05:01.360 only five dollars a month get ad free content. They get the bonus content. 896 01:05:01.440 --> 01:05:03.679 Like I said, we're going to ask these folks about another geeky passion 897 01:05:03.679 --> 01:05:06.559 of mind that I think plays into what they're talking about. And it's also 898 01:05:06.599 --> 01:05:10.880 just a great way to support everything that's going on. One reason why I'm 899 01:05:10.880 --> 01:05:12.760 able to have these guys on, which is great. As you all know, 900 01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.679 I'm supporting the strike, and so I'm not doing any commentary on struck 901 01:05:15.800 --> 01:05:18.800 media, and so it's just wonderful to seat. You know, Hollywood is 902 01:05:18.840 --> 01:05:23.960 not the only face that these stories are coming out of. And but but 903 01:05:24.039 --> 01:05:29.239 a reason I say all that is that during the strike twenty five percent is 904 01:05:29.280 --> 01:05:31.800 that during the strike, twenty five percent of everything that I get in through 905 01:05:31.840 --> 01:05:36.199 those membership fees is being donated to the Strike Fund. That helps out not 906 01:05:36.320 --> 01:05:41.360 only the actors and the writers themselves, but all the people who are affected 907 01:05:41.400 --> 01:05:45.719 by the strikes. You know, the security, the caterers. John you 908 01:05:45.760 --> 01:05:48.079 mentioned you to prop work. I don't know if you're affected by the strike, 909 01:05:48.119 --> 01:05:50.559 but I know certainly there are a lot of prop people who are affected 910 01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:54.320 by it. The Strike Fund helps support all of those kind of stuff, 911 01:05:55.440 --> 01:05:58.800 saying, oh, I've taken it on the chin. I would normally be 912 01:05:58.880 --> 01:06:02.639 working a television show right now. So my income went from you know, 913 01:06:02.840 --> 01:06:08.800 seventy K year to zero when the strikes started. So yeah, like, 914 01:06:08.960 --> 01:06:12.400 I think there's just so many ways that we're not we don't even think about 915 01:06:12.440 --> 01:06:15.880 how, you know, the awful things that these studios are doing is affecting 916 01:06:16.000 --> 01:06:18.599 everyone. It's not just the you know, people think, oh, you 917 01:06:18.679 --> 01:06:20.960 know, the writers and the actors, they get paid huge about some money. 918 01:06:21.119 --> 01:06:24.360 That's just the very top of the bill. You know. There's everything 919 01:06:24.480 --> 01:06:29.639 from security, the prop masters. There's some pizza shop that I'm sure you 920 01:06:29.679 --> 01:06:32.880 used to deliver late night pizzas to some studio in Hollywood that has just lost 921 01:06:32.920 --> 01:06:35.559 all its business. You know, these people, we need to help support 922 01:06:35.599 --> 01:06:39.599 it so the strike can go on and so the people can get what they 923 01:06:39.639 --> 01:06:42.360 need. So yeah, if you become a member of this, twenty five 924 01:06:42.360 --> 01:06:45.679 percent of that goes to that strike fund throughout the strike and also just helps 925 01:06:45.800 --> 01:06:48.280 keep the lights on and keeps us give me a chance to meet great people 926 01:06:48.320 --> 01:06:51.880 like Max and John and hear what they're doing. So please help support the 927 01:06:51.920 --> 01:06:56.480 podcast, Please help listen and pass us on to your friends. Check out 928 01:06:56.559 --> 01:07:01.559 Superhuman Public Radio. It's a fantastically entertaining uh and informational and it's it's the 929 01:07:01.639 --> 01:07:04.119 kind of thing that you're gonna want to pass on to people. So check 930 01:07:04.199 --> 01:07:06.480 that out. Check out all the great stuff we're doing. Thank you all 931 01:07:06.519 --> 01:07:09.039 so much. We have spoken