1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:04:02,400 I stand stand in time to hello one two one two, Hey, what's 2 00:04:02,479 --> 00:04:11,680 up? You're here working? We're live, We're live, right right. 3 00:04:14,759 --> 00:04:16,240 Glad to have you guys back. It's been a while, it feels like 4 00:04:16,319 --> 00:04:23,920 forever. Yeah, it's been It's good to come here again as well. 5 00:04:23,959 --> 00:04:26,639 I mean we recently had to show you and I. Yeah, you and 6 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,759 I did. That's right, all right? Yeah, yeah, it's been 7 00:04:30,759 --> 00:04:33,800 a wide for me. I've been more working on the French side of things 8 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:39,639 with them. I'm still in touch if if everybody, and and yeah, 9 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:46,160 we've got we've got some projects. Yeah, so everything's doing great. Cool. 10 00:04:46,199 --> 00:04:47,399 Do you want to go ahead and get started or do you want to 11 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,560 go into some of those projects? Tell us what you're up to or just 12 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:57,680 get into it. Oh. On the French side, we've we we've been 13 00:04:57,720 --> 00:05:03,560 working with some local monasteries, uh, doing some crowdfunding. We've we've made 14 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:09,439 that piece of first ever icon of some local saints, so yeah, dautiful 15 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:15,680 bysant in style and all um. We also started a YouTube channel and four 16 00:05:15,759 --> 00:05:21,560 now we're just making like mega reviews of some church father So we've got five 17 00:05:21,879 --> 00:05:28,480 documentary on Urineers of Lance. We've got uh probably it's going to be more 18 00:05:28,519 --> 00:05:32,720 than ten hours on Clement of Rome. So he's just studying everything, historical 19 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:42,879 context, is studying um linguistics, um theology, proper everything. So is 20 00:05:42,879 --> 00:05:45,519 that is that only in French? Or is it going to be both English 21 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:48,600 and French. It's in French, but translated to is getting better by the 22 00:05:48,720 --> 00:05:53,920 day. So that's that's the question we're asking ourselves. Should we do a 23 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:58,839 English production, but oh no, it's going to be in French? But 24 00:05:59,040 --> 00:06:03,319 over time resort is it going to get translated, whether by yourselves or automatically? 25 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:08,519 Okay, cool, Well, yeah, remind me afterwards and I'll put 26 00:06:08,560 --> 00:06:13,519 the link to that channel in here. Sure. All right, So today 27 00:06:13,920 --> 00:06:16,639 David and Snecker joining me because, as some of you may or may not 28 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:25,040 know, the Vatican has recently approved of yet another keyad chad style document. 29 00:06:25,199 --> 00:06:30,399 It's known as the Alexandria Document, and so we're gonna kind of talk about 30 00:06:30,439 --> 00:06:32,959 both of those and once again we see a lot of admissions. In my 31 00:06:33,079 --> 00:06:38,519 understanding, my assessment is that, you know, post Vatican two, we 32 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:46,720 had a lot of attempts at reconciling tensions I think between the theology of Vatican 33 00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:49,199 One and the theology of Vatican two, and this in part led to a 34 00:06:49,199 --> 00:06:54,639 lot of looking at Eastern theology. You know, people like von Balthazar, 35 00:06:54,759 --> 00:06:59,839 another Roman Catholic theologians, felt that they could in some way give breath and 36 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,959 life back to the Eastern quote lung of the church. However, this proved 37 00:07:03,959 --> 00:07:08,759 to be in my view, really difficult and as I said, in a 38 00:07:08,759 --> 00:07:14,040 lot of tension with what the documents of Vatican one actually say. And so 39 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,959 we have these meetings and these documents produced by these committees which are papally approved. 40 00:07:19,000 --> 00:07:21,560 That's another key point that I think it's next probably going to get to. 41 00:07:23,279 --> 00:07:26,199 I'm just sort of setting a stage and I'll let you guys make your 42 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:30,000 points however you want. I've got a bunch of screenshots and things that I 43 00:07:30,279 --> 00:07:32,240 saw in these documents that I can pull up here when we're ready to get 44 00:07:32,279 --> 00:07:36,160 to them. But I think that again, both of these documents are tremendous 45 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:40,680 in their admissions. And it's not just because of on Balthazar. There's also 46 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,079 you know Dvornik, who wrote the Phocian Schism. This was one of the 47 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:50,040 first key text on sort of admitting and get granting a lot of concessions to 48 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:56,879 the east eaves Knegar's nine hundred years together after nine hundred years, right, 49 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:01,680 These are texts that made so many concessions that you know, a lot of 50 00:08:01,759 --> 00:08:03,680 Roman callitis will be like, well, look, you guys are getting all 51 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:07,839 your points made, so why don't you just go ahead and join us. 52 00:08:07,959 --> 00:08:11,800 Well, the problem is not are you conceding our points? And the problem 53 00:08:11,879 --> 00:08:18,160 is that this is a system that has already dogmentized a certain view that such 54 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:22,839 that these admissions are admitting that the Vatican one position is not correct. That's 55 00:08:22,879 --> 00:08:26,839 the key issue here. And so whoever wants to you guys, go ahead 56 00:08:26,839 --> 00:08:31,680 and take it, take it away wherever you want to start. Yeah, 57 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:37,120 yeah, I just want to make a short comment. Yeah, So the 58 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:39,399 point that you made about the Roman Catholic Church just saying, you know, 59 00:08:39,759 --> 00:08:43,120 we're going to give you these concessions as long as you accept people supremacy. 60 00:08:43,159 --> 00:08:48,480 I mean, in this very document, in the Alexandrian document in three points 61 00:08:48,519 --> 00:08:54,799 eleven, this document already admits that because it says that Pope Leo the Turteine's 62 00:08:54,879 --> 00:09:03,200 letter Oriental Adignitas is basically and praclera ult in eighteen ninety five, it says 63 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,480 that it invited all the Orthodox to union with the Church of Rome on the 64 00:09:05,480 --> 00:09:11,320 condition that they recognize the papal premiacue of jurisdiction. And what it previously said 65 00:09:11,399 --> 00:09:15,720 is that it recognized the district distinct rights of all of the Eastern churches and 66 00:09:16,279 --> 00:09:20,399 gave respect to Eastern traditions. So we're basically seeing here in three point eleven 67 00:09:20,480 --> 00:09:24,600 that the only thing here is it doesn't matter the doctor, doesn't matter, 68 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,200 the practices, none of these things matter. The only thing that matters, 69 00:09:28,279 --> 00:09:30,879 according to this document, according to the Roman Catholic Church, is as long 70 00:09:30,919 --> 00:09:35,600 as you licked the papal boot, all is fine, basically, and that's 71 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,639 the viewpoint of the Roman Catholic Church. And again, before Snick moves on, 72 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:45,600 I also want to make this key point that chapter five, I think 73 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:50,679 it says the quiet part out very loud. The Roman Catholic Church essentially in 74 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:56,120 some sense things that it has lost some senses of what it calls synodality, 75 00:09:56,799 --> 00:10:01,960 and the Orthodox Church is the church that has that snoidality. And so there's 76 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:05,440 this attitude of as you said, like you know, the Western Church and 77 00:10:05,480 --> 00:10:09,279 the Eastern Church being actually just one Church of two lungs, and they're supposed 78 00:10:09,279 --> 00:10:13,759 to be reunited. From an Orthodox standpoint, this is just we see this 79 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:18,879 as an admission that Roman Catholic Church itself is recognizing that it is a defunct 80 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:20,879 church of some sorts, but we don't admit that. We actually do believe, 81 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:24,039 you know, we have primacy, we have sinoidality. We have both 82 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:30,399 of them working in conjunction already within the Orthodox Church that is apostolic, and 83 00:10:31,519 --> 00:10:35,919 the Roman cathoit churity self admits that its doctrines are not Apostolic by admitting that 84 00:10:35,240 --> 00:10:39,600 people primacy in its own terms is doctrine development. I believe they say this 85 00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:46,039 in one point five, that they admit that Roman primacy is doctrine development. 86 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:50,879 Doctrine development Roman Catholic system is basically them admitting that this doctrine is not Apostolic. 87 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:56,720 It just logically develops to its logical conclusion. That's kind of the viewpoint 88 00:10:56,759 --> 00:11:00,279 of the Newmanite understanding of doctrine development. So these are the things that I 89 00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:05,440 want to point out. Yeah, I think this document is really interesting. 90 00:11:05,519 --> 00:11:11,039 So of course the scope of it Rome is concerning a lot and as David 91 00:11:11,080 --> 00:11:13,240 said, I think the point for them is to is to get people to 92 00:11:13,360 --> 00:11:18,720 join, because you know, they just want people to recognize in some capacity. 93 00:11:18,919 --> 00:11:24,240 I think that's the name of the game. Um. But still like 94 00:11:24,399 --> 00:11:30,799 these admissions that at least for a lot of apologists apologetic you know, Roman 95 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:35,559 apologics into the fire some of them. Some of them really look like it 96 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:39,440 was written by by one of us guys, Like some of the points looked 97 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:41,399 like, I don't know, like Ubi, Patris or Salves could have written 98 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:48,039 it. Because it's specifically answers arguments we are seeing all the time. You 99 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:50,799 know, the Orthodox are not have councils. The Orthodoxers did not retain a 100 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:54,399 traditional position. You will see that even in the time of Peters, a 101 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,720 great even at the darkest time of the Church of Russia in terms of ecclesiald 102 00:11:58,720 --> 00:12:03,399 power, they still say, well they retained there s noudalities that is antique. 103 00:12:03,879 --> 00:12:09,320 Um. I think I think you will see we'll see that as well. 104 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,720 At some point they try to mudie water a little bit. They try 105 00:12:11,759 --> 00:12:16,200 to, for example, do not place the Council of Constants as a display 106 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,080 of sinudality, because that would be too damning. So they're still retaining things. 107 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:26,080 But as long as the Pope is safe. It's all right. Um. 108 00:12:28,279 --> 00:12:31,000 So yeah, this document is going to be important, and we need 109 00:12:31,039 --> 00:12:35,799 to stress that this document, if it is like Kitty, it's going to 110 00:12:35,879 --> 00:12:39,799 be part of the magisterium at some point. Kitty was cited by the Pope. 111 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:45,519 So I can already see opponents, you know, doing curls, you 112 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:50,559 know, just just just thinking and going back and forth. Um. But 113 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:58,840 ultimately it is an official position of the church. Yeah, and I think 114 00:12:58,879 --> 00:13:01,600 I think this is a rather short read. You should like probably post it 115 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:07,600 right away so people can can have a look. And it's interesting that this 116 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:09,840 is many of the points. And I would say that outside of the part 117 00:13:09,879 --> 00:13:16,840 that criticizes Constants for being too secular, which which is a bit weird because 118 00:13:16,519 --> 00:13:22,559 this criticism can be extended to any other council before before this schism, and 119 00:13:22,639 --> 00:13:28,879 the later part that tries to equivocate, it tries to make an equivalence between 120 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:37,120 the Orthodox councils of the second millennium and the Um the very ecommunistic statements. 121 00:13:37,159 --> 00:13:41,679 So that's funny because we would say that, for example, balament is not 122 00:13:43,000 --> 00:13:48,080 is not a universal communical binding decision, but Rome here says that it is 123 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:50,559 so that's quite funny. We're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna cover that. 124 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,639 But a part of that, it's it's a pretty well summarized history of 125 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:58,919 compared the classility for a second millennium. I think someone who just wants to 126 00:14:00,279 --> 00:14:03,639 to diving to church. So we can easily pick up this this text, 127 00:14:05,039 --> 00:14:09,759 yeah, exactly. And first thing I noticed at the beginning, early on 128 00:14:09,799 --> 00:14:15,639 the document, it says, despite this is one point five, at that 129 00:14:15,759 --> 00:14:22,399 time, despite the doctrinal development of Roman primacy, synodality was still evident. 130 00:14:22,919 --> 00:14:26,200 So we have again a kind of an admission here early on the document that 131 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:30,679 prior to the twelfth century, and this will get into the period of the 132 00:14:30,679 --> 00:14:35,679 greg Royan reforms and all that, it notes that Roman premacy developed. So 133 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:41,279 we have an admission now of what appears to be the Newman doctrine of development. 134 00:14:41,399 --> 00:14:46,639 But when I read Poster Attornis, and when I read Satists Colognidum, 135 00:14:46,679 --> 00:14:50,320 I don't see development. I see no, this was always from the earliest 136 00:14:50,399 --> 00:14:52,039 days of the church. The case in fact, that's I think the first 137 00:14:52,039 --> 00:14:56,720 few paragraphs of Leo the thirteenth Satists Colognidum. So how is it the case 138 00:14:56,799 --> 00:15:01,960 that it's always there. It was always clear in the Fathers. I mean, 139 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,759 the wording of Southeast communion is very very strong. It does not leave 140 00:15:07,000 --> 00:15:09,600 or give any place for quote development. And yet we see here early on 141 00:15:09,639 --> 00:15:15,519 this document that yeah, it's a it's an admission of development, and it 142 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:18,360 was the premacy of Rome. It seems to say it was kind of evolving 143 00:15:20,039 --> 00:15:26,279 parallel to synodality, and that both were still evident at this time period prior 144 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:33,679 to the twelve I guess the tenth and eleventh century. Yeah, yeah, 145 00:15:33,679 --> 00:15:39,039 I mean that's that's a big thing. Like basically, the argument that Matthew 146 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:45,240 sixteen eighteen equals Pope of Rome if supremacy it as a church. The idea 147 00:15:45,279 --> 00:15:48,320 is that this is clear as they no, like this is this is a 148 00:15:48,399 --> 00:15:52,759 dead argument now because it requires an extra step. It requires the idea of 149 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:56,080 doctrinal development, which is something else that needs to be proven. So all 150 00:15:56,159 --> 00:16:00,399 the arguments you know, oh, Matthew sixteen eighteen clear as a uh no, 151 00:16:00,399 --> 00:16:04,759 no, you you request a specific exegesis and a specific doctrine of development 152 00:16:04,759 --> 00:16:11,080 to prove it. Now, Um, the document that Vatican won papacy since 153 00:16:11,159 --> 00:16:15,519 the time of the apostle that's done. So that's from the get go, 154 00:16:15,919 --> 00:16:18,559 that's it's a huge admission. And then we have another admission, which is 155 00:16:18,559 --> 00:16:26,480 the point that we made, which is that the selection of bishops in Rome 156 00:16:26,559 --> 00:16:30,000 itself actually underwent a Revolutionist says during the twelfth century the role of the Roman 157 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:36,080 synod was replaced with the consistory, meaning the cardinals. Now I mentioned this 158 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:40,600 many times because this is a revolution, not just in the governance of the 159 00:16:40,679 --> 00:16:42,919 Church as a whole, but we begin to see in the Roman Church itself 160 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:48,600 an alteration in how we see we get a bishop of Rome. And the 161 00:16:48,679 --> 00:16:52,399 reason that matters is that there were no cardinals. Okay, there were there 162 00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:59,240 was There was no cardinal, no consistory in the first eleven centuries. And 163 00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,640 so the documents saying yes, we get this transition to a Roman cardinal system 164 00:17:03,799 --> 00:17:07,200 in Rome itself, which leads to the election of the Roman bishop. Now, 165 00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,880 somebody might say, well, but that's not that big of a deal, 166 00:17:11,279 --> 00:17:15,160 but the prior way that bishops and metropolitans were elected was not this way. 167 00:17:15,680 --> 00:17:21,400 So if Rome itself can revolutionize the way that you know, the Apostolic 168 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:25,319 canons, for example, talk about the metropolitan or talk about the first the 169 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,880 protos. This document will talk about the protos. Right, if Rome can 170 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:33,960 revolutionize that, then it only makes sense that Rome could then revolutionize the way 171 00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:40,000 that all the bishops in the world are chosen. And so eventually it becomes 172 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:44,640 the case that known Rome now chooses and approves all of the bishops in the 173 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:48,160 world. But this is admitting that it wasn't that way prior to that. 174 00:17:48,200 --> 00:17:52,640 So again it's another revolution, and then we have to then every Roman cathlcropolis 175 00:17:52,720 --> 00:17:55,880 comes back and says, yeah, but see it evolves, it develops. 176 00:17:56,079 --> 00:18:00,200 We need this development, this evolution, because it's it's just it's a it's 177 00:18:00,200 --> 00:18:03,599 a seed that grows into a tree. Okay, Then it's not like Sneck 178 00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:07,279 said, then it's not clear as day in Matthew sixteen. Then it's not 179 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,480 something that was always there that the popes could have called on, like a 180 00:18:11,599 --> 00:18:15,920 Bara says, who was always there. They just didn't always have to use 181 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:19,319 it. They could have, but didn't. Okay, so they chose for 182 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:26,279 seven eight centuries not to use the most obvious, effective, efficient, pragmatic 183 00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:30,200 clear way to settle doctrinal disputes. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 184 00:18:33,279 --> 00:18:40,000 Yeah. And another point in regards to this is also that in one 185 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,960 point three it talks about it basically admits and this is already admitted by the 186 00:18:44,039 --> 00:18:47,920 Roman Catholic try it cel, but it's nice to see them reaffirming the fact 187 00:18:47,920 --> 00:18:52,279 that part of what allowed for the doctional development kickstart at the time is due 188 00:18:52,279 --> 00:18:56,880 to the forgeries and the false decretools and the donation of Constantine and end things 189 00:18:56,920 --> 00:19:03,160 of that nature helped develop the Roman Catholic Church into becoming what it is today 190 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:07,920 in some sense, and this we see a lot of Roman Catholic apologist trying 191 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:12,319 to downplay these things, but the Roman Catholic Church itself admits that these played 192 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:18,480 a huge role in the further developments and the controversies that surrounded it. Another 193 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,960 point that I want to make, maybe it's kind of like a change of 194 00:19:22,039 --> 00:19:26,359 the subject, but at one point a what I found very interesting is that 195 00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:30,920 a Roman Catholic Church actually admits that it's schismatic because they admit that in the 196 00:19:32,319 --> 00:19:37,839 Crusades they've established parallel jurisdictions contrary to the Orthodox bishoprics and the Apostolic sees. 197 00:19:38,319 --> 00:19:42,279 They did this in various different churches. One of them being Cyprus, and 198 00:19:42,319 --> 00:19:48,119 they admit that Cyprus had autocephaly. It's alpha was recognized in the thirty Chemical 199 00:19:48,160 --> 00:19:52,000 Council, right, And it basically saying, yeah, we established these parallel 200 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:59,440 jurisdictions in the eleventh century after the schism bit the Greek Church setting up parallel 201 00:19:59,480 --> 00:20:04,160 jurisdic is the definition of schismatic activity. And so it's quite ironic that it's 202 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,079 the Yorkstocks that are referred to as schismatic, but it's reading the Roman Catholic 203 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,599 Church. They established parallel jurisdictions, right, Yeah, just to be clear, 204 00:20:11,759 --> 00:20:15,440 So this admission is interesting. I'll read this point. I'll read let 205 00:20:15,480 --> 00:20:18,319 me read one point three real quick, because like David said, it's a 206 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,160 great admission. It reads I've got it on the screen here. I'm trying 207 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,359 to get it to where everything fits just right. But it says consequently, 208 00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:32,279 a more judicial ecclesiology was developed. The false to Credles and the false donation 209 00:20:32,319 --> 00:20:37,160 of Constantine, which were mistakenly supposed to be authentic, suppressed the central figure 210 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:41,839 of the pope in there give me stress, the central figure of the pope 211 00:20:41,839 --> 00:20:47,079 in the Latin Church. The new mendicant orders in the thirteenth centuries, such 212 00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:52,720 as Franciscans Mensica axempted from papal episcoal authority, prompted a conception of the papacity 213 00:20:52,759 --> 00:20:56,119 as being entrusted with pastoral care of the whole church. Now again, this 214 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:59,759 is like, like next said, it's almost like an UBI level document, 215 00:21:00,079 --> 00:21:02,799 like with all the admissions that it has in it. Oh yeah, like 216 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,640 everybody gets mad when we mentioned the forgeries, but that's not those here. 217 00:21:07,279 --> 00:21:10,000 And by the way, I'll let you go sneck. But so the other 218 00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:12,480 point is uh that I always like to bring up, is well, if 219 00:21:12,519 --> 00:21:18,799 the papacy was entrusted with this special divine terrorism, as Vatican One says, 220 00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:22,960 then how come it took so long for the papacy to recognize that these were 221 00:21:22,039 --> 00:21:26,960 fake and forged documents? Why were they having to back up their claims on 222 00:21:26,079 --> 00:21:32,319 something that, yes, later was discovered to be fraudulent and we're forgeries. 223 00:21:33,000 --> 00:21:36,720 But I thought the correct chroism and got into the Holy Spirit would have protected 224 00:21:36,759 --> 00:21:40,960 them from knowing that these were completely forged documents. And somebody could might say, 225 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:44,680 well, we threw not protected and chroism for everything. It's only faith 226 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,200 in morals. Yeah, I'm pretty sure that the issue here is faith in 227 00:21:48,279 --> 00:21:51,680 morals right, the governance of the church and whether it has a supreme earthly 228 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:57,039 head or not. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a really interesting point 229 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:03,799 that brought up, because the question is not like like today many many Roman 230 00:22:03,839 --> 00:22:07,720 Catholic apologies who say, well they use this, but they didn't. They 231 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,160 didn't need to, Like they had all the better documents, but these were 232 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:18,160 seen as a as the strongest one. And for example, they couldn't just 233 00:22:18,240 --> 00:22:22,119 come up with Matthew sixteen eighteen to the business tines, because of course they 234 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:26,160 had the envision as us that Peter is a is a Catholic meaning a universal 235 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:30,680 figure that applies to the entire episcopate. So of course they had to rely 236 00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:37,279 on on on judicial civil civic argument. And that's why the later part of 237 00:22:37,279 --> 00:22:41,240 what constant folds a little bit flat for me, and we're going to see 238 00:22:41,240 --> 00:22:45,000 it a bit later. I want to go back on the idea of Cortinlet. 239 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,799 So this is really interesting because as you said, um, the Roman 240 00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:55,519 position is that the pope is he is a bishop that has a special charism 241 00:22:55,759 --> 00:23:00,359 within the episcopacy, and that the power of all of the bishops come and 242 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,720 is legitimized by the communion with him and the approval by him. For example, 243 00:23:04,799 --> 00:23:10,640 today you cannot consecrate a bishop in the Roman Church without papal approval. 244 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:15,240 So that's really interesting because if that, if God's plan was to set up 245 00:23:15,279 --> 00:23:21,079 this charrism really clearly, why is there possibility even for it to happen? 246 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,920 And the cardinal it comes into that because before that the pope was elected just 247 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:30,839 like any other patriarch, meaning by his directs, a fragent synod. So 248 00:23:32,839 --> 00:23:36,119 yes, great point. You know, it works a variety, some of 249 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:41,640 them cast lots things like that. But the idea that the cut dinner it 250 00:23:41,759 --> 00:23:45,640 gets installed, which was subjected by the Bysantine. By the way, so 251 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,119 you can see when Ambert, Cardinal Lambert is a man who made the schism, 252 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:52,359 comes to Constantinople, is received only as a deacon, is not received 253 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:57,160 as a presbyter or an episcopus or something like this, and he gets really 254 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,079 pissed about it. It is quite it funny historically, but the establishment of 255 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:07,000 this conton it means that the pope can pick from wherever he wants people that 256 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,640 he that he likes. That that's a universal solidification of power. So saying 257 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:18,599 that this is not historically reflected in the structure and election of the papacy. 258 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,559 I think that's that's that's already showing a shift, and it is that quite 259 00:24:22,559 --> 00:24:27,160 clear about this. I would like to talk about the fact that they recognize 260 00:24:27,240 --> 00:24:32,319 the cannon that makes Cyprus autocephalis. How many times have you heard, hey, 261 00:24:32,319 --> 00:24:37,039 autocephaly doesn't make any sense exactly. Yes, I bring it up all 262 00:24:37,079 --> 00:24:40,599 the time to Roman Cathopologists in the last year or so, and yeah, 263 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,880 it's all I hear is Yeah, that's insane, that doesn't exist. In 264 00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,079 fact, a lot of Roman catelic apologists actually use the very existence of autosophalist 265 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,119 churches as somehow something that makes us ridiculous and not the Catholic Church. That's 266 00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:57,880 how deluded these people are, not recognizing that the Council of Ethics granted autocephaly. 267 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:03,400 Yeah, and on that point, I want to read a part of 268 00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,839 one point eight to kind of give an idea to people. What I'm referred 269 00:25:06,839 --> 00:25:10,880 to specifically says, as a result of the First Crusade, a Latin patriarch 270 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:15,839 and the Latin hierarchy were established in Antioch and in Jerusalem instead of or parallel 271 00:25:15,839 --> 00:25:19,880 to the Greek patriarch. It it says the same about Cyprus and various different 272 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,240 other bishoprics. Now this is a very crucial point because according to Roman Catholic 273 00:25:23,319 --> 00:25:27,519 Church, in fact, we do have sacraments, we do have holy orders, 274 00:25:27,559 --> 00:25:33,319 and so from the Roman Catholic perspective, actually the Orthodox Church at Antioch, 275 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:37,240 at Jerusalem and the other patriarchs that were established by the Orthodox Church, 276 00:25:37,680 --> 00:25:42,440 we're already you know, actual jurisdictions and althorities according to the perspective of Roman 277 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,960 Catholic Church. So even if you're a Roman Catholic, even if you believe 278 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:49,680 that the Roman Catholic Church is a true church, even within this logic, 279 00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:53,640 the Roman Catholic Church by definition is doing something that is schismatic, right, 280 00:25:53,720 --> 00:26:00,440 schism is setting up parallel jurisdictions and althorities. We already existing alterity and jurisdiction. 281 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:04,319 The Roman Catholic Church has done this historically, and it basically says, 282 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,319 yeah, I guess we are skismatic at the end of the day. And 283 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:12,039 this can be further shown, especially today by three different patriarchs. You know 284 00:26:12,039 --> 00:26:15,720 the fact that there are three different patriarchs at Antioch, then in the Roman 285 00:26:15,759 --> 00:26:19,160 Catholic Church. Then it's the Roman Catholic apologists that say, you know, 286 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:22,920 oh you have all of these bishops in America. It's like which Orthodox church? 287 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,599 I mean, you have that issue in Antioch? You have the exact 288 00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:30,519 issue with the patriarch of the Antioch. You have three different bishops at Antioch. 289 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,599 That is impossible to occur unless Roman Catholic Church is a schismatic church. 290 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:40,119 It's almost like, yeah, it's to see this admission. It's almost like 291 00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:45,079 Snack said, like not just ubi, but like, were the people at 292 00:26:45,119 --> 00:26:48,559 this conference literally just replying to all the things that all of us have been 293 00:26:48,599 --> 00:26:53,680 saying for the last five years. It's like and sees even go further. 294 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:59,359 The next point talks about the Fourth Cruisades. That's not even theological. But 295 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,279 if you dare brings the Fourth Crusade, everybody gets mad because oh you're not 296 00:27:03,079 --> 00:27:06,720 You're not to Busantine, so you shouldn't be bad about this. But well 297 00:27:06,799 --> 00:27:11,000 we'll see it's significant. But yeah, all the points are covered. Is 298 00:27:11,079 --> 00:27:12,799 great. It's just a start. The slave is going to be good. 299 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:15,440 Okay, I've got one point eight up. Do you want to go into 300 00:27:15,519 --> 00:27:21,160 one point nine with the crusade there, yeah, sure you want you want 301 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,160 to go over one point nine, or because because I have some things written 302 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:29,279 about one point nine as well that are that are important, like the main 303 00:27:29,319 --> 00:27:32,759 thing about the Forth Crusade. And the usual argument that you see with this 304 00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:34,240 is that, oh, you know, what about the Latin massacre and eight 305 00:27:34,279 --> 00:27:37,680 you know eleven eighty five and so and so forth. I think a big 306 00:27:37,680 --> 00:27:41,359 difference between that is the Fourth Crusade was papally sanctioned. Now people will point 307 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:45,759 out, oh, well, the pope regret it, right, he condemned 308 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:52,119 this event. But actually Pope not so innocent and she Senski notes this in 309 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,880 his book and phil Okay in his documents called Reductio Grecorum. This is his 310 00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:00,160 epistol seven point one fifty four. You can find this in Petrologility in the 311 00:28:00,839 --> 00:28:04,359 volume two hundred and fifteen. He actually says that, well, at the 312 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:08,000 end of the day, the Greeks deserved it, right, In a very 313 00:28:08,039 --> 00:28:11,599 simplistic manner, he basically said, well, the Greeks deserve it because there's 314 00:28:11,599 --> 00:28:15,240 schismatics and heretics. So even though you know the things that he didn't endorse, 315 00:28:15,279 --> 00:28:18,119 the things that happened in the Fourth Crusade. Eventually he used it to 316 00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:22,160 his own advantage. And guess what, he set up a parallel you know, 317 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:26,680 the Roman Catholic Church set up a parallel jurisdiction in Constantinople. So they 318 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:32,559 continued there's schismatic activities even in the thirteenth century. And again this is an 319 00:28:32,599 --> 00:28:34,519 important point because it's not just they didn't just have these wrong ideas in the 320 00:28:34,559 --> 00:28:40,400 eleventh century. Now, they were continuing schismatic activities even in the thirteenth century. 321 00:28:40,519 --> 00:28:44,640 And this document is admitting that, and that's a big admission. Yeah, 322 00:28:44,759 --> 00:28:47,279 so that's a great thing. But the Fourth Crusade, the Fourth Cruisade 323 00:28:47,319 --> 00:28:52,640 obviously was a terrible historical event. But I mean, you're American, you're 324 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:56,720 Turkish and French. It doesn't affect us, of course, like personally or 325 00:28:56,799 --> 00:29:02,119 no blood. I mean, David live lives in Istumble, so maybe maybe 326 00:29:02,119 --> 00:29:06,279 it does affect him in an ancestral sense. It doesn't affect us in an 327 00:29:06,319 --> 00:29:11,000 astress ancestral sense, but it's it is affecting the Church. And I think 328 00:29:11,039 --> 00:29:17,000 I think this is not a clear reference or direct reference, but it is 329 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:21,680 implied to the reduction record and to the ideas that yes, the papacy did 330 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,160 not sanction the crusade, but it greatly took advantage of it afterwards. It 331 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:30,880 I mean, maybe you should read a passage of the reduction. It compares 332 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,279 the authoction to a rebellious daughter that was quelled by by providence of the of 333 00:29:37,359 --> 00:29:42,039 the spillage. So of course this sets up the ideas that coercion became the 334 00:29:42,119 --> 00:29:45,240 norm in the in the East, that that all this, that many of 335 00:29:45,279 --> 00:29:49,440 these documents that try to reconciliate both parts and so on were made on the 336 00:29:49,799 --> 00:29:59,039 and the coercion of the West against the weakened East. So it is significant 337 00:29:59,039 --> 00:30:03,720 in an ecclearsal sense. And the classic argument is to say, don't you 338 00:30:03,799 --> 00:30:07,279 dare bring up the Fourth Crusade, the pope condemned thing. That's it. 339 00:30:07,559 --> 00:30:12,200 No, here it is clearly showing that it had ecclesial repercussions. So that's 340 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:19,599 another arguments that just a way, yeah, those are great points. Um, 341 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,640 do you want me to bring up a different section or do you want 342 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:26,680 to keep going with us? Which point by point, maybe we should read 343 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:32,759 the part for the US so it says, yeah, during the twelfth century, 344 00:30:32,759 --> 00:30:33,880 the role the Roman. I'm sorry, that's the wrong point. The 345 00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:42,640 wrong point. It's about the crusade part as that we're saying. The Fourth 346 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:48,240 Crusade resulted in the plundering of content and Open and established no parallel Latin hierarchies 347 00:30:48,319 --> 00:30:52,720 in the remaining anciencies of the Greek Church, though he discouraged the Venetians from 348 00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:56,119 conquering content and Ople. Pup Instant the Third consequently appointed a Latin patriarch and 349 00:30:56,200 --> 00:31:02,240 Constantople, as well as in Alexandria. Hold on a second, Yeah, 350 00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:10,039 here we go, I got something. The decisions of the fourth latter in 351 00:31:10,079 --> 00:31:14,119 Council in twelve fifteen were imposed, particularly on the churches of Jerusalem and Cyprus. 352 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:18,480 The principle whereby the Greeks could keep their liturgical rituals but had to accept 353 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,960 the Bishop of Romans their head and commemorate him, was practiced, especially in 354 00:31:22,039 --> 00:31:26,599 Cyprus. Cross reference the Latin centies of Limasol of twelve twenty and from Augusta 355 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:32,440 twelve twenty two and the Bola Cypria of Pope Alexander the Fourth in twelve sixty. 356 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,839 In many such cases, the great clergy consisted from now on as belonging 357 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,799 to the Latin Church were forced to participate in Latin liturgical actions. The atmosphere 358 00:31:40,839 --> 00:31:45,960 worsened with the polemical attitudes of the political attitude of the theologians, denouncing the 359 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:49,039 Eastern usages, of the errors of the Greeks or the errors of the Schismatics, 360 00:31:52,759 --> 00:31:57,119 which, by the way, contra Era Gricorum is based on forties. 361 00:31:59,039 --> 00:32:02,359 Yeah, but much of it is. And the next point that I that 362 00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,920 I had it it talks about Saint Philotius Kocinos and others. It kind of 363 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:14,119 makes a statement about recognizing the so called Palamites, which I don't think it's 364 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:17,160 it's I don't think they just said it just to say something, because especially 365 00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:22,200 today in the Roman Catholic Church, though historically center your Polomos was seen as 366 00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:24,920 this villain and so and so forth, today in a Roman Catholic Church he 367 00:32:25,000 --> 00:32:29,319 is recognized as as a saint. In the Eastern Catholic churches, and even 368 00:32:29,319 --> 00:32:31,000 Pope John Poled the second refers to him as a holy man, as a 369 00:32:31,039 --> 00:32:37,400 saint, and so this reflects a very big shift in the Roman Catholic attitude 370 00:32:37,440 --> 00:32:40,599 towards the East. One of the many examples of it, I think one 371 00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:45,079 point eleven very much. I mean, I'll read one point eleven for you 372 00:32:45,119 --> 00:32:50,880 guys. It says, during the second millennium in the East, the Concilier 373 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:55,440 institution functioned according to the canonical principles of Apostolic Canaturty four. Very the Patriarch 374 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,240 of Constantinople, as the protos and the bishops present in cost Santinople participated in 375 00:33:00,319 --> 00:33:05,039 sessions of the end of Musa Synod. Through the end of Musa Synod, 376 00:33:05,079 --> 00:33:08,119 the Church expressed a form of permanent snodality in which the patriarchs of the East 377 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:13,960 present in Constantinople or their representatives and other bishops were convoked by the Patriarch of 378 00:33:13,960 --> 00:33:19,440 Constantinople to make snodo decisions. So this is an admission that the Orthodox ecclesiological 379 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:24,960 system is Apostolic in Ancient They're basically admitting that. And you know, Chapter 380 00:33:25,039 --> 00:33:30,960 five is already trying to make an argument by making that admission with the whole 381 00:33:30,000 --> 00:33:34,319 like, you know, two lungs of the same church kind of language, 382 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:38,240 an idea. Sorry, but I think it's very important that we recognize this 383 00:33:38,319 --> 00:33:43,759 admission, because again, this is a Roman Catholic Church admitting that the Orthodox 384 00:33:43,799 --> 00:33:49,960 ecclesiological structure is patristic, it's ancient, it's apostolic, and it's canonical, 385 00:33:50,079 --> 00:33:52,319 whereas it admits that some of the things that the Roman Catholic Church did in 386 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:59,519 history were uncanonical in advents against the ancient canons. So as as Snake and 387 00:33:59,599 --> 00:34:01,519 Jay has pointed out, I mean, this might as well have been written 388 00:34:01,519 --> 00:34:05,920 by any of us, because these are the arguments that we had been making 389 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:07,639 four years. By the way, you see, I've got that right there 390 00:34:07,679 --> 00:34:12,360 on the screen. So and I think this one absolutely. Cannon thirty four 391 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,440 is a big admission, and the Kyad document too, right, we already 392 00:34:15,519 --> 00:34:19,599 mentioned. Yeah, so just for people who don't know, because I know 393 00:34:19,639 --> 00:34:22,559 they have some uers that might just you know, come to Autholoxy just learn 394 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:27,400 a little bit about it. Appostly, Cannon thirty four is significant, so 395 00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:31,480 it's part of a collection of cannon. The usually agreed upon date is that 396 00:34:31,599 --> 00:34:35,920 it's it's from fourth century Seria. So I don't know if they admitted it's 397 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,840 apostolic, but the debate concerning the cannons. The Roman should historically did not 398 00:34:42,039 --> 00:34:46,559 accept the collection of cannons up until I think twenty at least they didn't accept 399 00:34:46,599 --> 00:34:50,719 the full collection of the appostle Cannon, and this is part of the later 400 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,519 collection of the appostlely Cannons. And that's that's already mentioned the previous document in 401 00:34:53,599 --> 00:34:59,199 Katy that this was a principle and appostly Cannon thirty four is just a p 402 00:34:59,599 --> 00:35:07,400 of of early orthodoxically theology. It establishes the relation between a primate so at 403 00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:13,000 first, but strictly restricts the ideas that this primate as a supremacy. It 404 00:35:13,039 --> 00:35:17,679 says that the church is organized a head of bishops for nations. But that's 405 00:35:17,679 --> 00:35:21,559 also another argument. You know, oh you have national churches. Well you 406 00:35:21,599 --> 00:35:25,559 have fourth century documents within the Roman Empire that says that the church can be 407 00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:30,199 organized by nations. Exactly. Interesting. Yeah, I made this point many 408 00:35:30,239 --> 00:35:34,960 times, and it's like this, don't you understand this is the ancient synodality 409 00:35:35,079 --> 00:35:38,719 view is that the bishops to be chosen in this way and then you would 410 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:43,199 have a protost amongst them. It's from the from the from these ancient cannons. 411 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:46,760 Yeah, and and basically these plotos is not supreme. He has a 412 00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,239 prime exactly that that the synod can still oppose him. The synod can oppose 413 00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,320 him, the seenot can oppose his decision. It derives his authority from the 414 00:35:55,360 --> 00:36:00,679 synod, but the synod needs to obey him inasmuch as and let's make one 415 00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,800 last point where before you go on, because every Roman Catholic will say, 416 00:36:05,119 --> 00:36:07,880 yeah, but it's not talking about the Bishop of Rome. He doesn't count. 417 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,840 No, there's never an exception. You see, there's never the by 418 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,440 the way, this applies to everyone except the Bishop of Rome. And that's 419 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:16,880 how they treat every cannon and all the councils that goes against the Vatican one 420 00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,880 view. As they just say, well, but that's not counting that Rome 421 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,639 doesn't count in that it never makes the concession that well this is for everybody 422 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:28,239 except Rome. Yeah, I mean you can even you can't even say that 423 00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:34,639 it applies to Roman as much as as it shows what the primacy is understood 424 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,320 at that time. So I'm just going to read it because well, it 425 00:36:37,360 --> 00:36:38,599 also applies to Rome. Yeah, please do. But it also applies to 426 00:36:38,679 --> 00:36:45,760 Rome by the fact that the document just admitted that the Roman way of selecting 427 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:52,559 the Roman bishop changed in the twelfth century. Yeah. So Cannel thirty four 428 00:36:52,639 --> 00:36:57,800 says the bishops of every nation must acknowledge him who is first among them, 429 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:02,079 and account him as their head, and do nothing of consequence without his consent. 430 00:37:02,760 --> 00:37:07,960 But each may do these things only which concern his own parish and the 431 00:37:07,039 --> 00:37:14,360 country places which belong to him to it. But neither let him who is 432 00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,800 first, do anything without the consent of all. For so there will be 433 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:22,719 unanimity, and God will be glorified through the Lord in the Holy Spirit. 434 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:28,400 So that's really good because it shows that the primarcial head has a real power. 435 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:36,159 But this power cannot go against is on synod. So this cannon is 436 00:37:36,159 --> 00:37:40,519 a proof that we have from you know, we believe them to be Apostolic. 437 00:37:40,840 --> 00:37:44,440 But even if you want to be critical about it, from the fourth 438 00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:50,559 century onward a very clear definition of church relations that include birth, sinodality, 439 00:37:50,639 --> 00:37:54,480 and primacy and when and when a bit later it would says that even under 440 00:37:54,519 --> 00:38:00,760 the Automan Turcs, and even under Peter's a greage which reforms the Russian choos 441 00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:05,039 legs of Lutherans, and when they says that we retain and we continue to 442 00:38:05,079 --> 00:38:09,360 follow this canon, it means that even in the all these adverse consequences, 443 00:38:09,639 --> 00:38:16,840 the main basis of ecclesiology which is primacy inci metality was retaining the autos. 444 00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:22,360 That's great. And on that same point, let's look at what the Key 445 00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:29,639 eighty document said in section eighteen from a few years earlier. It says, 446 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:35,800 from the first Ecumenical Council onward, many questions, major questions regarding faith and 447 00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:40,320 canonical order in the Church were discussed and resolved by appealing to the final authority 448 00:38:40,320 --> 00:38:42,920 of the Roman Bishop. Oh wait, no, it doesn't say that. 449 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:46,440 It says by ecumenical councils. Although the Bishop of Rome was not personally present 450 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:51,920 at those councils, in each of those cases, he was represented by the 451 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,880 League gates, and he agreed with the council's conclusions after the fact. The 452 00:38:55,000 --> 00:39:00,559 church is understanding of the criteria for reception as a council ecumenical developed over the 453 00:39:00,599 --> 00:39:06,280 course of the first millennium. For example, prompted by historical circumstances, the 454 00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:09,800 seventh Ecumenical Council of Nicea too gave a detailed description of the criteria that they 455 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,880 understood. The council itself says that the agreement of the Symphonia of the heads 456 00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:22,239 of the Churches in cooperation Synergaia of the Bishop of Rome and the agreement of 457 00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:27,280 all of the other patriarchids. Thus, an ecumenical council must have its proper 458 00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:32,159 number in the sequence of ecumenical councils and teaching in accord with previous councils. 459 00:39:32,159 --> 00:39:39,239 Thus, reception by the Church as a whole has always been the ultimate criteria 460 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,960 for the ecumenical nature of a council for ecumenic city of council. So wait 461 00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,960 a minute, that is exactly the opposite of what every Roman Catholic apologist says. 462 00:39:47,519 --> 00:39:51,360 They say, what makes it an ecumenical council is the approval of the 463 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,119 pope. Ultimately, that is not what this says. Says. This says 464 00:39:54,159 --> 00:39:59,960 no reception by the church as a whole, which is what Orthodoxy always argue. 465 00:40:00,159 --> 00:40:05,039 And they always say, don't you can't know what countries because they ain't 466 00:40:05,079 --> 00:40:08,480 going to be the whole church, blah blah, And their own documents say 467 00:40:08,599 --> 00:40:14,079 what we say, We repeat their documents, and they think that we're being 468 00:40:14,199 --> 00:40:16,199 weirdos and crazy. You know, that's what your documents say. That's that's 469 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:22,239 key eight right there in section eighteen. Yeah, and on that point, 470 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:27,719 I mean the Roman Catholic system, It isn't any different when it comes to 471 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,800 you know, receptionism, because at the end of the day, the pope 472 00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:37,599 is determined by the same factor. Right does the church recognize the pope as 473 00:40:37,599 --> 00:40:39,239 a pope? Well, any decision that the pope makes us recognized on the 474 00:40:39,320 --> 00:40:43,599 on that basis right. So why is Qope France the pope and not an 475 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:47,360 anti pope according to the Roman Catholic system. I think even one Peter five 476 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,639 was that the website, I mean they have they have an article of making 477 00:40:51,679 --> 00:40:58,039 this exact argument that it's the reception that how the pope is received is how 478 00:40:58,159 --> 00:41:01,000 it is very fine at thee is indeed the pope. It's the same. 479 00:41:01,599 --> 00:41:05,840 It's a very similar logic at the very least. So I'll also add that 480 00:41:06,039 --> 00:41:10,199 there's also actual you know, episcopal um standards that are that are employed, 481 00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,800 right, that the patriarchs have to accept this in a snodal manner, right, 482 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,440 So to these things are also factored in to understand how the church receives 483 00:41:19,519 --> 00:41:23,920 councils and the decisions made by those councils universally as well. So, um, 484 00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:30,039 there's that point as well, and I think that I think in a 485 00:41:30,119 --> 00:41:35,920 sense I will say that Alexandra document does, for the most part accurately reflect 486 00:41:36,079 --> 00:41:43,039 the Orthodox ecclesiological system, I referring to it as synodality um for the most 487 00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:49,119 part. As I've said, snackers, you want to say anything here or 488 00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:54,039 up before I pull up another key eight section UM, I mean, yeah, 489 00:41:54,079 --> 00:41:57,559 you can. You can go to Kitty. I think I think it's 490 00:41:57,599 --> 00:41:59,599 important. I think we're going to cover as this a bit data, a 491 00:41:59,599 --> 00:42:05,840 bit um. This, like the new document, as copious examples of Orthodox 492 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:12,039 second millennium vis of the papacy binding councils, and it mentioned Coquinos because there's 493 00:42:12,079 --> 00:42:15,519 a dogmatic civil war in Rome, right, the Neotomis faction, which was 494 00:42:15,599 --> 00:42:21,280 leading at some point, is no longer leading. And this is a quiet 495 00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:28,000 endorsement of the the genius of the Palamites quote unquote. So yeah, the 496 00:42:28,039 --> 00:42:30,960 difficulty, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I just want to make one short 497 00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:35,400 comment one of them, one of the councils that it is hinting at in 498 00:42:35,679 --> 00:42:40,119 one point twelve at the last sentence says that the profession of Lyons was rejected 499 00:42:40,119 --> 00:42:45,480 by the Church of Constantinople in twelve eighty five. It doesn't know the council 500 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,719 but this happened in the Senate of black Day, where the Council of Lyons 501 00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,039 was promptly rejected. Yes, and what happened. What that council did is 502 00:42:53,039 --> 00:43:00,679 in fact elaborate an Orthodox understanding of energetic procession as a counter understanding to certain 503 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:04,599 statements about Church fathers, specifically one of Saint John Damascus, where he says 504 00:43:04,599 --> 00:43:08,679 that the whole two proceeds from the Father through the son. The Council of 505 00:43:08,679 --> 00:43:16,440 black Grenade basically exemplified, basically showcased an Orthodox theological understanding of the idea of 506 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:21,159 the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father through the son. Right, So it 507 00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:23,960 is referring, in fact to another Orthodox council that again was accepted by all 508 00:43:24,079 --> 00:43:30,559 Orthodox Christians as an official response against certain arguments from the Roman Catholics. And 509 00:43:30,639 --> 00:43:34,320 doesn't the document, I think it's the new one, doesn't it admit that 510 00:43:34,880 --> 00:43:40,519 the Palamite theological quote development was from Maximus and the Cappadocians, Which, yeah, 511 00:43:40,599 --> 00:43:45,199 like it says, it's let me find it. This is it's in 512 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:51,239 one point thirteen. Yeah, one point thirteen. So yeah, so one 513 00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:55,920 point ten says in spite of this trial, So the difficulties after after the 514 00:43:55,960 --> 00:44:01,239 Crusades, and all says steel Wes in the East wotivated good eclearsing relations and 515 00:44:01,320 --> 00:44:05,400 work for the restoration of unity. So or you know, we're other bad 516 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:10,199 schismatic Greeks, great patriarchs with deep theological understandings, such as Philotios Cochinos. 517 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:17,320 So a disciple of Gregory Palamas examined the possibility of convoking in the Chimerican councils 518 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:22,480 that will provide a solution for the division. And in point thirteen it says, 519 00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:27,519 during the fourth centuries, the hesicast controversy provoked by Balam, a monk 520 00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:31,840 of Calabria, arose in the East. The monks of Montatos delegated Saint Gregory 521 00:44:31,840 --> 00:44:37,519 Palamas to answer the challenges of Balam. During the fourth century, fourth Synods 522 00:44:37,519 --> 00:44:45,320 in Constantinople defended the distinction between the essence and the uncreated energy of God developed 523 00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,880 by Saint Gregory Palamas on the basis of fathers of the Church are just Saint 524 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,000 Basil of Caesarea and Saint Maximus, a confessor. These events in the indicate 525 00:44:54,079 --> 00:45:00,239 the continuing practice of sinodality in the East. That's a wonderful text so it 526 00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:04,599 says that, well, Palamas didn't just just pull this thing by himself. 527 00:45:05,800 --> 00:45:09,639 Balm was the one who was a clear attacking a previous tradition that was held 528 00:45:09,639 --> 00:45:16,159 in Mount Athos, and the Synod of Constantinople were reunited to formulate a dogmatic 529 00:45:17,039 --> 00:45:23,119 and binding defense of this doctrine. And this shows that sinodality remained in the 530 00:45:23,159 --> 00:45:30,800 east. Uh, the banks doesn't. Doesn't say that sindality was maintained that 531 00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:36,440 well in the west. So that's really interesting. Yeah, there's a lot 532 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:42,079 of emissions, we had many, I've got thank you. Yeah, so 533 00:45:42,119 --> 00:45:45,199 I've got if I finally got that part put put up on the screen here. 534 00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:50,079 So um, you'll notice a snack read right that it's admitting the essence 535 00:45:50,079 --> 00:45:53,960 synergy debate. It says it was caused by BARLEYM, provoked by BARLEYM. 536 00:45:53,960 --> 00:46:00,239 But it note that the energy uncreated energy distinction is developed by Palma out of 537 00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:06,760 yoga, out of made up theology of the Middle Ages, out of polytheism. 538 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,400 No what all the Roman Catholics say, all of that nonsense. No, 539 00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:17,400 it's it's developed quote unquote from who cappadoceans in Maximus exactly as we always 540 00:46:17,440 --> 00:46:23,559 point out so this is literally what we say, fourteenth fifty century witness a 541 00:46:23,679 --> 00:46:29,840 radical change in the political sphere. And I want to note this because they're 542 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:35,480 admitting everybody knows what's in Unam Sanctum, right. Unam Sanctum is not just 543 00:46:35,519 --> 00:46:40,599 a document that says you have to also every creature on earth must be subject 544 00:46:40,639 --> 00:46:45,880 to the Roman Pontiff for salvation. Yes, it says that, and everybody 545 00:46:45,920 --> 00:46:49,000 knows that. But that's not all it's saying. It's saying that you must 546 00:46:49,039 --> 00:46:52,960 be subject to the Roman Pontiff in all in matters temporal. In other words, 547 00:46:53,000 --> 00:47:00,760 you have to accept the temporal supremacy of the Roman Bishop overall the world 548 00:47:00,639 --> 00:47:04,920 as also part of your salvation. You see, it's not just are you 549 00:47:04,960 --> 00:47:08,320 accepting the quote Catholic faith to be saved? No, No, it's the 550 00:47:08,400 --> 00:47:13,480 Cavoic faith, which includes the universal temporal supremacy of the Roman Bishop to be 551 00:47:13,519 --> 00:47:16,360 saved. You see. The document is admitting that it says to reaffirm papal 552 00:47:16,400 --> 00:47:23,280 supremacy in the temporal order. So they're admitting that, yes, this geopolitical 553 00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:32,519 earthly papal power right is also the basis for the Western schism of the Three 554 00:47:32,559 --> 00:47:36,719 popes. This is this is what we bitch about all the time. Wait 555 00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:42,639 a minute, So Peter moves his seed to France for seventy five years, 556 00:47:42,639 --> 00:47:46,599 and I'm supposed to accept that. That's all what That's what Jesus intended in 557 00:47:46,599 --> 00:47:52,159 the first century was to set up a giant palace in France where the Sea 558 00:47:52,199 --> 00:47:58,000 of Peter's in Avignon. And why did that happen? Well, it happened 559 00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:02,440 because the papacy became a geo political historical power tool. Right, it's not 560 00:48:02,559 --> 00:48:09,000 it's not primarily a thing to adjudicate doctrine. It's the Pope's now calling his 561 00:48:09,039 --> 00:48:13,480 own wars. He's got his own army, right, if you watch the 562 00:48:13,519 --> 00:48:16,360 Borgias, he's got his own army at this time. This document is emitting 563 00:48:16,360 --> 00:48:19,760 all that. That's all the stuff that we met about all the time. 564 00:48:20,559 --> 00:48:24,159 That's really interesting because many people will quote Unam Santem in a vacuum without understanding 565 00:48:24,199 --> 00:48:29,519 the context. And here's a context exactly. Sometimes says, oh, if 566 00:48:29,519 --> 00:48:34,039 you do not submit to the pope in any in every way, you're going 567 00:48:34,039 --> 00:48:37,360 to hell. But it was it was a claim of the pope to try 568 00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:43,960 to curse people who have the factual temporal power kings. The name is the 569 00:48:44,039 --> 00:48:46,000 king of France and Frances is going to come up again and again. So 570 00:48:46,039 --> 00:48:51,760 we can see that the French kings simply didn't didn't take kindly to it, 571 00:48:52,519 --> 00:48:55,519 that the papacy was basically subjugated short left to this send. We had a 572 00:48:55,599 --> 00:49:01,679 talk talking specifically about that um. So that's interesting as well. It just 573 00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:07,119 means that they isn't protected and when and when ye, when someone puts when 574 00:49:07,119 --> 00:49:10,360 them sunk them saying, hey, is that that that's the church showing the 575 00:49:10,400 --> 00:49:14,599 full power. No, it was pretty much an active disperation at this point 576 00:49:14,639 --> 00:49:20,280 because it ended up captive. They called it, they called it. This 577 00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:24,840 is this is basically admitting the Frankish thesis exactly. Yeah, I mean it's 578 00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:30,079 a little bit after after the Frankish, right, it's after Charlomagne, but 579 00:49:30,119 --> 00:49:36,559 it's it's the principle that the papacy has become a political tool, right uh, 580 00:49:36,599 --> 00:49:40,599 And that principle is still exaggerated by the fourteenth fifteenth century, right, 581 00:49:40,639 --> 00:49:45,840 so Charlomagne's eight hundred. But the point is that there's this revolution that has 582 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,159 taken place in the East, which is a meta by Devarnick and by Kongar. 583 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:52,280 Right, So the Gregorian reforms and after the Gregorian Reforms, I mean, 584 00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:57,039 you have that period of one hundred years of Germanic papacy and then we 585 00:49:57,119 --> 00:50:01,800 get the shift over into Avignon papacy and all that. But it's the principle 586 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:08,440 that this is a world power now and it's mainly focused on geopolitical world power, 587 00:50:08,840 --> 00:50:13,199 and theology and doctrine become secondary. And the reason I'm saying that is 588 00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:17,880 that that's still the case. So the reunion attempts that we get later on, 589 00:50:19,000 --> 00:50:22,519 like Breast and others, those are actually other further manifestations of this point, 590 00:50:22,559 --> 00:50:28,079 which is that it's no longer primarily about the theological disputes. Look at 591 00:50:28,119 --> 00:50:31,320 the first seven councils. Is it about geopolitical temporal power. No, the 592 00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:38,760 disputes and the councils are about Christology, trinity, incarnation, energies. Icons. 593 00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:45,719 Now in the second millennia in the Latin Church, the disputes keep being 594 00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:49,480 about the role of the pope. Why is that, Well, it's again 595 00:50:49,599 --> 00:50:53,960 because when the pope offers union to the East, it's basically look at Melkites, 596 00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:59,440 look at all the scale of what the people in the Eastern Union churches 597 00:50:59,719 --> 00:51:02,639 that they have a scale from I only accept seven councils all the way over 598 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:08,880 to basically being almost Roman Catholic or Latin so to speak. Right, another 599 00:51:09,000 --> 00:51:14,800 argument that just cuts short like it literally says. This episode was followed for 600 00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:17,239 a few years. A few years later by the exile of the papacy in 601 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:22,599 the French city of Avignon, where the popes leave for seventy years under the 602 00:51:22,679 --> 00:51:28,440 control of the French monarchy. So the argument that, um, oh, 603 00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,480 the businessine church is just like you just see the or papies, it's just 604 00:51:30,599 --> 00:51:36,440 the emperor who dictates whatever you want. It is not exactly against against the 605 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,119 emperor. The church is controlled by that are or by putting, or by 606 00:51:39,159 --> 00:51:44,280 the Turkish Sultan, all of that, like you can see that. And 607 00:51:44,440 --> 00:51:50,559 the ideas that in order to to not have anything to say to the worldly 608 00:51:50,599 --> 00:51:54,440 authorities, the church needs to become a state by itself and a worldly authority, 609 00:51:54,960 --> 00:52:00,760 Well that that's contradicted because the pope had a state that that point and 610 00:52:00,159 --> 00:52:06,480 specifically why it got subjugated by the French monarchy, and we will see that 611 00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:10,960 throughout history is there's still had been this extension vi the French monarchy until an 612 00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:15,039 event. And there's still also a very funny admission that we're going to see 613 00:52:15,039 --> 00:52:19,719 it in a few minutes. Okay, So what's actually we're going to pull 614 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:24,719 up next? One point fifteen is I think the next big one because it 615 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:30,320 talks about the Council of Constance, it talks about Hike Suncta, and it 616 00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:35,800 talks about conciliriism. So for those who don't know, there was a period 617 00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:39,559 or there were three popes in the Roman Catholic Church between the fourteenth and the 618 00:52:39,559 --> 00:52:45,280 fifteenth centuries. This problem was resolved by the Council of Constance, which is 619 00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,320 an ecumenical council accords to the Roman Catholic Church. It's published a decree called 620 00:52:49,400 --> 00:52:53,679 Hike Suncta, and this document says that the highest authors in the church belongs 621 00:52:53,719 --> 00:52:59,320 to a council. Now, afterwards, the Roman Catholic Church said, now 622 00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:02,519 we're gonn ignored this right, we're going to reject this. But it developed 623 00:53:02,519 --> 00:53:07,480 this teasis in order to solve the issue of three different papal claimants, because 624 00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:12,280 well, you have three different papal claimants and they all have some kind of 625 00:53:12,360 --> 00:53:15,760 legitimacy, So which one are you going to be choosing. Well, you 626 00:53:15,800 --> 00:53:20,079 need a council, a true counsel in order to choose the correct pope, 627 00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,079 but you need to have a correct pope to call the council, right. 628 00:53:23,159 --> 00:53:29,159 And so they try to get themselves away from this contradiction by trying to use 629 00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:30,920 a temporary, temporary fix up, and once that fixed up a cure, 630 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:35,639 they just okay, we'll just ignored this. This was just just something that 631 00:53:35,679 --> 00:53:38,079 we kind of just had to do for the time being. And but that's 632 00:53:38,119 --> 00:53:40,679 not really a valid outlook because because at the end of the day, this 633 00:53:42,039 --> 00:53:47,000 has some kind of dogmatic approval and it ended up being a legitimate position within 634 00:53:47,039 --> 00:53:52,719 the Roman Catholic Church throughout many, many different years. And so this document 635 00:53:52,840 --> 00:53:55,599 self treats conceliriism in a very negative fashion. But in fact, what's really 636 00:53:55,639 --> 00:54:00,920 interesting is that conciliarism I myself and say it's the exact same thing as sinodality, 637 00:54:01,239 --> 00:54:07,519 but it's very similar in many key aspects to sinodality. Of course, 638 00:54:07,599 --> 00:54:09,559 this document again looks at it from a negative perspective, while it looks at 639 00:54:09,559 --> 00:54:14,360 sinodalty from a postic perspective. But I think it's kind of them trying to 640 00:54:14,400 --> 00:54:17,039 cover their tracks a little bit, at least from my perspective, and the 641 00:54:17,079 --> 00:54:21,840 Council of Constance is really I mean, the whole thing is just a great 642 00:54:22,119 --> 00:54:27,800 illustration of the Roman Catholic system not working, particularly in the fourteenth and the 643 00:54:27,840 --> 00:54:30,559 fifteenth centuries. That's kind of how I google cat. Yeah, that's a 644 00:54:30,599 --> 00:54:35,480 great point. It is a great point, and it reminds me of what 645 00:54:36,199 --> 00:54:40,840 the funny satirical account on Twitter trag cat Watch said the other day, which 646 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:49,639 was that for the Roman Catholic for the trag cat especially, the papal magisterium 647 00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:53,920 is a thing that exists in theory and it doesn't actually have anything to do 648 00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:58,119 with the actual history of the church. It's just like when that girl called 649 00:54:58,159 --> 00:55:00,840 in last night or the night before and she was like, you always want 650 00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:05,920 to go to history. I want to talk about the idea of authority, 651 00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:08,320 and how that kind of tells us that the papacy is the case. Oh 652 00:55:08,519 --> 00:55:13,280 so you mean an abstraction and not the actual historical papacy. So this is 653 00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,800 as it just makes sense. That doesn't make no first of all, like 654 00:55:17,039 --> 00:55:22,119 we're looking for historical church as instituted and second of all, many things can 655 00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:30,480 make sense, like you republicanism, it makes sense. That's that's not the 656 00:55:30,599 --> 00:55:32,960 that's not the superb argument. You know, is the idea is that, 657 00:55:34,039 --> 00:55:36,679 oh, there needs to be an authority. Well, you have to develop 658 00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:40,119 the authority. We can have primacy the no system. Sure, yeah, 659 00:55:40,119 --> 00:55:45,880 and if there wasn't so, But the usually the admission of those people is 660 00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:51,639 that it took the church the first thousand years to realize that synodality, collegiality, 661 00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,480 conciliarism didn't work the best. So the next thousand years they figured out 662 00:55:54,519 --> 00:55:59,039 papalism. So it's like, wait a minute, So where was the Holy 663 00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:01,559 Spirit guiding the church in the first thousand years? That the Holy Spirit wasn't 664 00:56:01,559 --> 00:56:06,639 smart enough to tell the church that the best, most pragmatic, effective way 665 00:56:06,639 --> 00:56:10,559 to govern the church is the top down God emperor monarchy. Well, you're 666 00:56:10,599 --> 00:56:15,000 looking for historic church. So if if, if, if the claims of 667 00:56:15,079 --> 00:56:23,880 the organization of your church needs to rely on modern communication technologies, that it 668 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:27,320 doesn't, that doesn't really work. Well that's why. Yeah, that's why 669 00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:32,239 I asked her. I asked her go ahead, Okay, So that's why 670 00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:38,159 Vatican one is U is really modern in that sense, because you can see 671 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:42,639 as a spirit of absolutism breathing it. It even says that you should not 672 00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:46,440 like cut ways of communication with the pope, like you know, probably referring 673 00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:52,039 to great point and circle, the telegraph or whatever. So if if a 674 00:56:52,119 --> 00:56:59,719 historic church needs to rely on modern or industrial ways of communication, if that 675 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:04,440 pod and postle and then the sysithemial system, probably a system is not the 676 00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,000 Yeah, that's and she essentially went on to admit, Yeah, the Church 677 00:57:08,039 --> 00:57:13,119 of the first thousand years is not the Vatican One church. Yeah, exactly, 678 00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,199 that's the That's our whole point. So who's the historic church? Who's 679 00:57:16,239 --> 00:57:19,639 the church of the first thousand years? I mean, that's the key issue 680 00:57:19,679 --> 00:57:22,840 between the key point of debate between a Roman Catholic and Orthodox person. And 681 00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:27,559 if it's not the Vatican One system, that's it. That system is canceled 682 00:57:27,599 --> 00:57:30,840 out. It does it doesn't matter. So that's why I always ask these 683 00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:35,159 people, how would anybody the average person in the year three hundred member the 684 00:57:35,159 --> 00:57:37,840 papal system is supposed to be so practical and so obvious. Well, there 685 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:42,280 was no internet, modern communications, like snack saying, so how's the person 686 00:57:42,360 --> 00:57:45,800 in the year three hundred prior to the First Ecumenical Council. How am I 687 00:57:45,800 --> 00:57:49,920 supposed to recognize what the true church is in the year three hundred? If 688 00:57:49,920 --> 00:57:53,519 the papal system is true, am I supposed to buy osmosis? If I 689 00:57:53,719 --> 00:57:57,679 if I live in Ephesus, I'm supposed to know what's going on in Rome 690 00:57:58,119 --> 00:58:00,079 if I live in Ephesus. It's just crazy to make any sense, right, 691 00:58:00,079 --> 00:58:07,920 So you can't make it this apologetics of post Vatican one apologetics. Right, 692 00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:12,039 And if that was how the Church operated in the first seven hundred years 693 00:58:12,079 --> 00:58:15,440 or the first thousand years, how come none of the church fathers are doing 694 00:58:15,760 --> 00:58:20,559 post Vatican one style apologetics. They would have been simply proving the church in 695 00:58:20,599 --> 00:58:22,880 this Vatican One way. Well, yeah, but it didn't. The Church 696 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:29,039 hadn't evolved yet to have this truth exactly. So all we constantly we see 697 00:58:29,119 --> 00:58:31,760 that this position, on the one hand, is not the Church of the 698 00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:37,079 first thousand years. Yet they constantly quote mine and pick things out of the 699 00:58:37,079 --> 00:58:38,719 first thousand years to try to prove that it was the Church of the first 700 00:58:38,719 --> 00:58:42,440 thousand years. Yet they then turned around and say, well, all the 701 00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,599 counter evidence just proves development. You see, Well, this is a ridiculous, 702 00:58:46,719 --> 00:58:51,960 unfalsifiable position. So it's not the church of the first thousand years, 703 00:58:52,039 --> 00:58:55,920 but also it's there, but it also developed and it's a completely different structure 704 00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,599 of the church and the second millennium. Sure, but that's because we figured 705 00:58:59,599 --> 00:59:01,480 out a more practical way to run the church. Okay, but again that 706 00:59:02,039 --> 00:59:06,119 what you think is more practical, It is not the point here if that's 707 00:59:06,199 --> 00:59:08,840 not the structure that Christ laid down. And remember, the faith is once 708 00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:13,719 for all delivered to the saints. How can there be something that's good enough 709 00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,199 in the first, second, and third century but not good but that's not 710 00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:22,400 good enough in the year one thousand, twelve hundred, thirteen hundred. You 711 00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:27,519 say, you want to know? The thing about this is that the church 712 00:59:27,599 --> 00:59:34,760 fathers, especially since these Epius of Cesarea exactly, do make theological argument for 713 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:40,679 a centralized administration vifa single head. They do it for the emperor, and 714 00:59:42,119 --> 00:59:45,199 which was like, if it was clear that, oh, we have one 715 00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:51,519 God, therefore we need to have one supreme head. Um therefore is the 716 00:59:51,559 --> 00:59:54,199 papacy. I mean, all the arguments were already here. Now wait it 717 00:59:54,280 --> 00:59:58,760 was real quick detour snack. I have a question for you snack because I 718 00:59:58,760 --> 01:00:01,480 think you were saying this in a comments and discussion, so in terms of 719 01:00:01,519 --> 01:00:04,760 Ladder and six forty nine, and we don't have to spend a whole lot 720 01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:08,719 of time on this, but to me it looks like actually an egg on 721 01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:14,119 the face argument against the papers. The Roman Calics want to use Ladder and 722 01:00:14,119 --> 01:00:15,480 sixty forty nine as a papal proof, but to me, it looks like 723 01:00:15,519 --> 01:00:20,639 it's not. Because weren't you making the point that Ladder and six forty nine 724 01:00:20,760 --> 01:00:24,599 was not conceived of as acumenical at the time because the Pope couldn't get the 725 01:00:24,639 --> 01:00:29,960 emperor to approve it. Is that correct? So that's really interesting that you 726 01:00:30,079 --> 01:00:34,679 mentioned it. I think some would say it's acumenical at the time, nameless 727 01:00:34,719 --> 01:00:37,960 and Maximus between Maximus, doesn't you know, I understand, But I'm saying 728 01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,360 from the Roman Calic view, they don't count it as one. Yeah, 729 01:00:40,480 --> 01:00:45,000 yeah, they don't count it. But if you if you look at some 730 01:00:45,039 --> 01:00:49,360 of the claims there, which which of course saying that Rome is a pillow 731 01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,039 of the faith because at the time it was the only the only jurisdiction that 732 01:00:53,079 --> 01:00:58,320 maintains the faith. So it's it's well deserved, but they did not accept 733 01:00:58,320 --> 01:01:02,719 it. And if you go to the act of this synod by Father Price, 734 01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:07,360 who was a wrong Catholic, it would say, oh Rome is of 735 01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:12,679 course, um, this is really kind and appreciative words for Rome. But 736 01:01:12,840 --> 01:01:17,400 the Roman delegates themselves did not understand the synot to be be a comedical. 737 01:01:17,719 --> 01:01:22,480 They understood that without the approval of the of the other patric yes, it 738 01:01:22,519 --> 01:01:30,159 wouldn't work. And I found some other historians, Latin historians, um, 739 01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:35,719 like Libertus of Carthage, who says this for Casidon. They says that the 740 01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:42,119 legates wouldn't want a synod to happen without the approval of the Emperor and the 741 01:01:42,239 --> 01:01:46,719 and the Eastern churches, because nobody would take them seriously. Yeah, real 742 01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:50,079 quick, we'll go back to David. I don't want to leave David out. 743 01:01:50,920 --> 01:01:53,239 The reason we're bringing up I'm bringing up six forty nine is that so 744 01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:59,039 this is the first attempt of the Roman bishop to call his own counsel with 745 01:01:59,360 --> 01:02:02,400 I think they had over had like one hundred eight bishops present. So with 746 01:02:02,559 --> 01:02:06,920 Roman approval and with one hundred eight bishops, including bishops from the East, 747 01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:12,639 president in the Roman Catholic idea of what makes a council an ecumenical council. 748 01:02:13,000 --> 01:02:16,760 There's no reason why that should not be a Roman Catholic council. If in 749 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:21,840 the year six forty nine they had the Vatican One mindset, it has all 750 01:02:21,880 --> 01:02:28,079 the criteria for an ecumenical council. However, Rome does not count Ladder in 751 01:02:28,119 --> 01:02:32,320 six forty nine amongst us ecumenical councils. So this shows us that they clearly 752 01:02:32,519 --> 01:02:37,239 that in that year in the in the seventh century, nobody had the mindset 753 01:02:37,320 --> 01:02:43,119 that all that's needed for an ecumenical council is simply the approval of the Roman 754 01:02:43,119 --> 01:02:47,320 bishop. And it would it would have been waysier for the church because right 755 01:02:47,400 --> 01:02:52,880 off TSI there is a new whip of bisecutions and Maximus gets told to the 756 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:59,440 next side, Pope Saint Martin is killed. So, um, if there 757 01:02:59,519 --> 01:03:04,440 was a poem were to definitely adjudicate forever be if everybody agreeing, it would 758 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:07,559 have been over then. And then yeah, David, I want to go 759 01:03:07,639 --> 01:03:12,440 back to you if you want to move on to a specific pointer area. 760 01:03:12,599 --> 01:03:15,800 Yeah, the next part that I was thinking of it talks about the Council 761 01:03:15,800 --> 01:03:21,199 of Florence next. But before we can we move on to Council of Florence. 762 01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,719 One thing I think Snake will especially will like to deal with this. 763 01:03:25,880 --> 01:03:31,039 It starts to talk about Gallicanism, right, that Concilerism gave rise to Gallicanism, 764 01:03:31,559 --> 01:03:37,760 and that it points out that that Gallicanism lasted until the nineteenth century until 765 01:03:38,119 --> 01:03:43,400 I think Napoleon and Snack being French, I think he has a lot of 766 01:03:43,440 --> 01:03:46,360 knowledge regarding Galicanism. So before we move, before we can talk about the 767 01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,039 Council of Florence, Sank, would you like to give some comments about the 768 01:03:50,079 --> 01:03:55,000 whole like the Gallicanist movement and how it kind of resisted papal supremacy in the 769 01:03:55,199 --> 01:03:59,360 in the history of the vest in some form. Yeah. So this goes 770 01:03:59,400 --> 01:04:02,840 back to pol to one point fifteen and it says that the Council of of 771 01:04:02,920 --> 01:04:09,239 Constants issued a deposition of the Pope and the idea of all the popes and 772 01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:15,400 named another one and stated that the Pope is as an authority that is under 773 01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:16,519 the council. And we would agree, you know, we would say that 774 01:04:17,519 --> 01:04:23,519 a primate has authority, but it cannot like overrule an echemical council in his 775 01:04:23,639 --> 01:04:28,519 own And here I think it's probably the first point of the document I don't 776 01:04:28,519 --> 01:04:32,679 really appreciate. So it said, oh, sinodality is great, but between 777 01:04:32,679 --> 01:04:39,159 the pope got humiliated like this. It's actually not sinordality, it's concelerism, 778 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:43,960 which is just the Latin root of the same term um. And then it 779 01:04:44,039 --> 01:04:49,159 says that this system is based on a civic Roman understanding. Well, didn't 780 01:04:49,159 --> 01:04:56,480 you just agree that, I mean arguments that the donation of Constantine was used 781 01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,360 by the Roman church because that was a civic Roman doc that was supposed to 782 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:08,960 be a low altonation passed by constantly. So saying that the integration of Roman 783 01:05:09,360 --> 01:05:14,599 civic institutions into the church is inherently disqualifying, I mean it's a bit weird. 784 01:05:14,639 --> 01:05:16,599 You know, you still have diocese, you still have you know, 785 01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:21,440 even the central Rome. You know, the earliest statistication of Rome having a 786 01:05:21,440 --> 01:05:28,239 central role back to Clement of Rome. It's because Rome is the center of 787 01:05:28,280 --> 01:05:31,800 the empire literally, you know, Orion is. So I think it's a 788 01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,599 bit of a cup out. I think that this is a point where the 789 01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:41,000 document tries to not give in too much because like literally, if you say, 790 01:05:41,119 --> 01:05:45,239 yeah, they can't give everything exactly. Yeah, So that's basically barring 791 01:05:45,519 --> 01:05:50,559 this and then saying, oh this this idea conceilerism. It led to the 792 01:05:50,679 --> 01:05:58,119 French Church being Galican meaning basically autocephalis under a king. But no, like 793 01:05:58,159 --> 01:06:00,480 if you look at the Gallican writers, they do not say I mean. 794 01:06:00,519 --> 01:06:03,760 Of course they mentioned Xana, of course they mentioned the Council of Basil. 795 01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:09,599 Of course they mentioned these. Of course they mentioned Honorious. But they're not 796 01:06:09,679 --> 01:06:14,840 saying they're not saying, oh we we we do it because of the Roman 797 01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:19,280 institute, civic institution, or because of of Xancta proper. They will quote, 798 01:06:19,320 --> 01:06:23,639 you know, you have people like Bosuns and they will mention the mayor 799 01:06:23,760 --> 01:06:27,119 Visian cannons, they will mention the canons of the ancient Church of Gold, 800 01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:30,400 they will mention the car Lindian cannons, they will mention all of these councils. 801 01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:34,320 That that shows that this count. This system, you know, concelerism, 802 01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:40,239 which literally is the nodality, was already established, and we had a 803 01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:44,159 whole talk about this. But there even was a triple proclamation, you know, 804 01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,159 the like in like in the business in numpire, meaning that the king 805 01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:50,960 like he's not the one who chose the bishop, but he he approved them. 806 01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:54,920 He approved them, and the people also acclaim them, which is something 807 01:06:54,960 --> 01:06:57,519 we see in the author of Church. So I think this is a bit 808 01:06:57,519 --> 01:07:00,239 of a couple. I think they're trying to uh to give as much, 809 01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:05,320 to consider as many points as possible to the offdox, but not concede either 810 01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:12,239 Gallicanism or or concelerism of accent that we would agree with I eccenta and actually 811 01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:15,400 going to the Council of Florence. A big part of why the delegation came 812 01:07:15,440 --> 01:07:18,679 to Florence is because they looked at what was happening in the West and they 813 01:07:18,719 --> 01:07:21,840 say, oh, look the Roman Church, just as the council is above 814 01:07:23,119 --> 01:07:27,079 the pope. So maybe we'll be able to discuss again and we'll see that 815 01:07:27,079 --> 01:07:30,519 that's not exactly what happened. Actually the opposite happened. But basically, I 816 01:07:30,559 --> 01:07:34,239 don't think we can sweep Gallicanism under the rug. I think it's coming later 817 01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:40,800 again in the documents, so we'll talk about it later. But essentially Gallicanism 818 01:07:40,920 --> 01:07:43,920 is a notocephalist church. Well, I was going to say, didn't didn't 819 01:07:43,920 --> 01:07:45,960 you make an argument a long time ago one of our streams that the ancient 820 01:07:46,079 --> 01:07:50,559 French Church was autocephalous something like that. Yeah, yeah, I mean, 821 01:07:50,559 --> 01:07:57,199 I mean it recognized Rome as as a patriarch. Yeah, it was organized 822 01:07:57,239 --> 01:07:59,920 by itself, and you needed to go through the king, and the king 823 01:08:00,159 --> 01:08:03,280 so himself as a protector of the church in Israel. Um. And and 824 01:08:03,360 --> 01:08:08,760 of course you know, even the subjugation of the papacy in Avignue was an 825 01:08:08,760 --> 01:08:12,079 action to protect his church. And you have, for example, Council of 826 01:08:12,119 --> 01:08:15,920 the Clergy. Um. You know, at some point kings were getting assassinated 827 01:08:16,079 --> 01:08:19,479 by the way, most of the French kings that got assassinated, we were 828 01:08:19,479 --> 01:08:27,680 assassinated by by by Catholics, theocrats. That's interesting. And they proclaimed, 829 01:08:27,680 --> 01:08:30,880 for example that the king is a is a statue of God. So he's 830 01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:36,000 basically saying that he's got an iconographic role and therefore um attacking him is attacking 831 01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:40,199 God. That's exactly the same thing you have You've got with Bysantine emperors. 832 01:08:40,479 --> 01:08:45,439 That's the same rhetoric. So um the idea that this was a novel thing, 833 01:08:45,560 --> 01:08:50,079 that was um, that didn't have any no that that's that's not what 834 01:08:50,159 --> 01:08:54,159 it was. You know, you can see it from the conversion of the 835 01:08:54,199 --> 01:08:58,520 Frankish people from from Clovis in five to eleven. The day is the year 836 01:08:58,600 --> 01:09:01,520 he died. He convened the sling. You already levels it already the rights 837 01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:08,880 of bishops being preserved. You already have the triple triple approval of the bishops. 838 01:09:09,119 --> 01:09:11,880 This is already in place. This is not something that was invented, 839 01:09:11,920 --> 01:09:15,720 so something that was solidified, especially when Rome medalled, but it was not 840 01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:21,039 a new thing. Were clear about that, by the way, for those 841 01:09:21,079 --> 01:09:25,680 and that, I want to remind everybody in the chat too, that the 842 01:09:25,760 --> 01:09:30,960 link for the Alexandria document is too long to put into the YouTube chat, 843 01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,760 So I'm going to include the link I did put a Twitter. I tweeted 844 01:09:34,760 --> 01:09:39,239 out the link and you can go to my twitter and get the full document. 845 01:09:39,359 --> 01:09:44,439 But after this, I'll put underneath the show description both documents so you 846 01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,680 can pull them up. They're not very long. I highly recommend everybody read 847 01:09:46,720 --> 01:09:50,439 them because I mean, there's like ninety percent conceding all the points that we 848 01:09:50,520 --> 01:09:55,439 make. So look for the documents. If you're watching this. Later on 849 01:09:55,760 --> 01:10:04,680 in the show description, go ahead, say you want to continue, No, 850 01:10:04,720 --> 01:10:08,319 I think I think we're going to touch the Gallicanism a bit a bit 851 01:10:08,439 --> 01:10:12,640 later. But oh, let's go to Florence and this is this is ZEPUALI. 852 01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,000 Yeah, well I suppose so. Yeah, So the Council of Florence 853 01:10:16,359 --> 01:10:23,000 Snack already made this point. There was at the same time a concilious assembly 854 01:10:23,319 --> 01:10:29,319 in in Basel, which is what convinced a lot of the Orthodox bishops to 855 01:10:29,520 --> 01:10:32,600 go to Florence, like to to well, not to Florence specifically, but 856 01:10:32,680 --> 01:10:38,000 to have a council of Roman Catholics because they sold the encouraging developments. But 857 01:10:38,199 --> 01:10:43,199 later on the church again it basically ruled, oh, well, that decision 858 01:10:43,239 --> 01:10:45,560 we made, actually we don't follow that decision anymore. We're just gonna, 859 01:10:45,640 --> 01:10:50,079 you know, scrub it off. And the Council of Florence happened instead, 860 01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:55,800 and there were various phyteological debates. I think, um, I want to 861 01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:59,720 kind of note some some specific things. A lot of people kind of I 862 01:10:59,800 --> 01:11:02,279 think mistake some people online do is that they look at the kind of the 863 01:11:02,319 --> 01:11:08,600 pet theories of certain figures in the in the Council, and they use their 864 01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:11,800 views in order to push all this is the official view of the of this 865 01:11:11,960 --> 01:11:15,520 specific issue, like the fully occur or whatever. But one of the biggest 866 01:11:15,640 --> 01:11:20,960 blunders of the Council of Florence is that it says that the Holy Spirit proceeds 867 01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:24,000 from the Father in the sun as a cause. Right. It says, 868 01:11:24,000 --> 01:11:28,960 it's very explicitly that it does so in the Greek sense, and it the 869 01:11:29,079 --> 01:11:34,920 Council also rejected the interpretation of causality as having any understanding of mediate causality. 870 01:11:35,000 --> 01:11:39,840 So when it speaks about the Greek sense of causality, it spasically refers to 871 01:11:39,840 --> 01:11:43,680 being unused, like not on caused cause, but being cause at all. 872 01:11:43,800 --> 01:11:45,520 Right, So the sun is not a cause of the Holy Spirit at all, 873 01:11:45,600 --> 01:11:49,319 verreas the Council of Florence says it is. But the same confessor says 874 01:11:49,439 --> 01:11:51,720 that the Holy Spirit, that the sun is not a cause of the Holy 875 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:55,319 Spirit. So this is one of the big blunders of the Council of Florence 876 01:11:55,560 --> 01:12:00,119 is that it directly contradicts Saint Maximis as this letter to Marion, which at 877 01:12:00,159 --> 01:12:03,000 first the bishops that the Count said, oh, yeah, this is in 878 01:12:03,039 --> 01:12:05,560 fact, or this is in fact from Saint Maximus, and then it says, 879 01:12:05,560 --> 01:12:08,840 oh, actually it's not from Saint Maximus. It's kind of So there's 880 01:12:08,840 --> 01:12:11,319 a lot of really interesting things that happened to council from us. But we 881 01:12:11,359 --> 01:12:15,880 see the same team in the Council of Florence in spite of the very different 882 01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:18,159 theological disputes, which at the end of the day, as long as you 883 01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:23,640 kissed the papal feet, everything is fine. And one of the things that 884 01:12:24,039 --> 01:12:27,760 Alstomov notes in his book on the Council of Florence is that after the Council, 885 01:12:28,239 --> 01:12:32,720 right after the union occurred the Greek the Greek bishops didn't even commune with 886 01:12:33,079 --> 01:12:36,680 the Roman Catholics. They didn't even to minologs, they didn't even even say 887 01:12:36,720 --> 01:12:41,560 the Creed with the fulca, they said it without the Folioki. And they 888 01:12:41,600 --> 01:12:45,079 pretty much literally they pretty much acted as if nothing happened. But a key 889 01:12:45,239 --> 01:12:49,800 part of this and many Roman Catholic apologists pushed misinformation about this, They said, 890 01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:54,720 the Council of Florence is proved that Orthodoxy is wrong, because apparently the 891 01:12:54,800 --> 01:12:58,880 Orthodox world completely accepted it. Well. In fact, the only church that 892 01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:02,319 can be spoken of accepting this council is the Greek Church. And the patriarch 893 01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:06,000 died before he even signed it. And it's well known that the so called 894 01:13:08,079 --> 01:13:11,600 the signature of the patriarch is not in fact, it's in fact forged, 895 01:13:11,680 --> 01:13:15,399 it's not the real signature of the patriarch. The patriarch died before the council 896 01:13:15,520 --> 01:13:17,760 was signed by the Greek Church, so the patriarch didn't even sign the council. 897 01:13:18,319 --> 01:13:24,880 And this document admits, in fact this was not received. It says, 898 01:13:25,119 --> 01:13:29,520 it says so in one point nineteen that this council was not received by 899 01:13:29,560 --> 01:13:32,560 the Greek Church. It wasn't even being contested to being received by the other 900 01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,840 churches. It was not received by the Greek Church, right and you know, 901 01:13:38,359 --> 01:13:42,399 even by the Greek Church. And it was officially rejected in fourteen eighty 902 01:13:42,399 --> 01:13:46,520 four. And it also had the participation of the East four Eastern patriarchates. 903 01:13:47,119 --> 01:13:50,560 And it says true this President Snodal Thomas, we overturned the council which was 904 01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:55,840 convened in Florence, along with its definition and the propositions contained within it, 905 01:13:55,840 --> 01:13:59,199 and be declared by this Thomas that the council is null and void. Now 906 01:13:59,239 --> 01:14:01,840 this is the official declaration. Prior to this, the Council of Fornce wasn't 907 01:14:01,880 --> 01:14:06,199 accepted either, right, not by Consciantinople nor by any of the Orthodox Church. 908 01:14:06,439 --> 01:14:11,000 So it mostly has a couple of rogue figures becoming Roman Catholic and that's 909 01:14:11,039 --> 01:14:13,920 the end result of the Council of fun. So a lot of Roman Catholics 910 01:14:14,039 --> 01:14:17,279 used this as a gotcha against against the Orthodox Christians, But in fact this 911 01:14:17,319 --> 01:14:21,479 document admits that the Ordodox Church didn't accept this council, that it was really 912 01:14:21,520 --> 01:14:26,840 only the Greek Church that was that could be spoken of accepting this council at 913 01:14:26,840 --> 01:14:30,479 a time, and even by the very standards of the Greek courtsdoct church itself, 914 01:14:30,439 --> 01:14:34,800 that didn't occur. Those conditions were not met. So it's similar to 915 01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:40,239 the Council of Lyons in a sense that the Greek Church and the ordsdouct Church 916 01:14:40,239 --> 01:14:43,399 in general did not accept the Council of Frons. Right. The document also 917 01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,159 says that the Council of Lyons was rejected by the by their church exactly. 918 01:14:47,680 --> 01:14:50,279 Well, you know the arguments that, oh that excuse them never happened. 919 01:14:50,279 --> 01:14:54,800 Oh you know, like you actually in union with us because you accepted Leon 920 01:14:56,119 --> 01:14:59,920 and Florence, and no, no, like exactly they see that we reject 921 01:15:00,039 --> 01:15:05,359 it is even mentioned a council that authoritative at least rejected it. So again, 922 01:15:05,720 --> 01:15:11,640 the Orthodox Church has the ability to make binding decisions into second millennium. 923 01:15:12,279 --> 01:15:15,680 Well, they already admit I mean, you know, Benedict and his books 924 01:15:15,680 --> 01:15:23,279 admits that the Orthodox Church maintained its faith for the last thousand years. Oh 925 01:15:23,279 --> 01:15:26,359 okay, then that isn't that an admission that we don't need the papers? 926 01:15:27,239 --> 01:15:30,399 If we maintained the Orthodox faith for the last thousand years, then what is 927 01:15:30,399 --> 01:15:34,319 it exactly the papacy gives us? And when I look at contemporary papism, 928 01:15:34,399 --> 01:15:39,800 I don't see all of the practical unity and guidance and uh, you know, 929 01:15:40,279 --> 01:15:43,000 clarity that it's supposed to get, like all the things they claim it 930 01:15:43,039 --> 01:15:45,880 gives, it doesn't actually give. But um, yeah, I didn't want 931 01:15:45,880 --> 01:15:47,279 to add too that if you guys, remember I love bringing this up, 932 01:15:47,359 --> 01:15:54,600 not because it is necessarily one percent approof of anything, but the when a 933 01:15:54,600 --> 01:16:01,479 lot of these dialogues started happening, you know, more recently there or publications, 934 01:16:01,600 --> 01:16:05,720 and you know, Catholic apologists that we're already noticing, Hey, wait 935 01:16:05,720 --> 01:16:13,640 a minute, we're already basically admitting that Vatican One's universalizing claims our contrary to 936 01:16:13,760 --> 01:16:17,199 historical fact. And so here is this one. I love to note that 937 01:16:17,600 --> 01:16:21,479 since publishing Orthodox in premises in two thousand and eleven. I continue to follow 938 01:16:21,520 --> 01:16:26,119 the dialogues doctor Adam de Ville, and he says, uh, yeah, 939 01:16:26,119 --> 01:16:29,880 it's just a fact that the first thousand years the papacy weren't Vatican one. 940 01:16:30,159 --> 01:16:34,800 Yeah, exactly, regional limitations to the Bishop of Rome. Regional limitations to 941 01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:39,319 the Bishop of Rome. That's our admitting our point. Now, Roman callous 942 01:16:39,359 --> 01:16:41,800 always say, well, who cares, He's just one guy, doesn't matter. 943 01:16:42,039 --> 01:16:45,640 Yeah, but these are these are documents and counsels and synods, assuming 944 01:16:45,680 --> 01:16:49,720 not counsels, but documents and theological commissions that Francis has no problem with. 945 01:16:50,279 --> 01:16:54,319 He doesn't. He approves of these things. And as next said, what 946 01:16:54,479 --> 01:16:58,640 Francis cided? What Ballamont or the one of these, Katie, one of 947 01:16:58,640 --> 01:17:00,880 these was cited by the papacy, right, I mean they're papally approved commissions, 948 01:17:01,000 --> 01:17:05,000 right, so so many of them proofs. Let me pull up the 949 01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:10,640 documents. This is part of a mega series, by the way, um, 950 01:17:10,760 --> 01:17:15,039 so you can say it isn't the document of the Pontifical Council for for 951 01:17:15,199 --> 01:17:27,119 promoting Right Christian and it is amavicum and the Pope mentions it mentions Ravenna it 952 01:17:27,199 --> 01:17:31,520 mentions Kitty, it mentions Balaman, so yeah, you can, you can 953 01:17:31,600 --> 01:17:35,239 just pull up. Now. The reason we want to mention this is that 954 01:17:35,439 --> 01:17:38,720 now the Roman Callegics will say, well, yeah, but it doesn't matter 955 01:17:38,840 --> 01:17:42,319 because it's not a binding. So but here's the thing, and this is 956 01:17:42,319 --> 01:17:45,760 why I always stress this, is that for the Pope to teach or promote 957 01:17:45,880 --> 01:17:51,439 error, or any other bishop or lay person in the Callegs church, there's 958 01:17:51,479 --> 01:17:56,760 no requirement that to be a heretic it has to be binding. Because if 959 01:17:56,800 --> 01:17:59,680 that was the case, then nobody could be a heretic in the Roman Callic 960 01:17:59,720 --> 01:18:02,760 church because it would require that you that that person bind everyone to it. 961 01:18:03,279 --> 01:18:08,079 Martin Luther couldn't bind anyone to his heresies, and yet he's condemned by the 962 01:18:08,119 --> 01:18:11,800 Pope and he's called a heretic. So likewise, it doesn't matter who is 963 01:18:11,840 --> 01:18:15,359 saying it or what the degree of authority that they have is. If someone 964 01:18:15,479 --> 01:18:21,119 is publicly teaching and affirming and promoting heresies or schism, then they're guilty of 965 01:18:21,119 --> 01:18:26,800 the sin of heresy and schism in Roman Catholic moral theology and canon law. 966 01:18:27,000 --> 01:18:30,319 So if Francis is promoting and pushing these documents and citing them and saying that 967 01:18:30,399 --> 01:18:34,960 it doesn't matter the level of authority that he's putting behind the documents. He's 968 01:18:35,000 --> 01:18:42,279 promoting and pushing something heretical, heterodox, something wrong theologically. So if if 969 01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:47,079 if we are in error as Orthodox, and if these documents are admitting our 970 01:18:47,119 --> 01:18:51,439 positions, then the documents are in error and our heterodox, and Francis promoting 971 01:18:51,439 --> 01:18:56,000 and pushing them makes Francis in error and heterodox. And so it doesn't matter 972 01:18:56,000 --> 01:19:00,000 how many thousands of times Roman Caltis come back with saying who was newably binding? 973 01:19:00,359 --> 01:19:04,680 It doesn't matter. Infallibly binding has nothing to do with whether the person 974 01:19:04,760 --> 01:19:08,680 pushing it is pushing Harris he or not. It's a really simple point, 975 01:19:09,079 --> 01:19:13,600 but they always deflect under this ridiculous reply that yeah, but he doesn't blind 976 01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:17,079 us to it, so it doesn't count. Martin Luther couldn't bind anyone to 977 01:19:17,199 --> 01:19:20,560 his heresies, So does that mean it doesn't count? No, the Pope 978 01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:25,279 still excommunicated Luther Firs Harres. He's a really simple point, Roman Calvix. 979 01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:33,640 I think it applies to Florence here too, because it's one key takeaway from 980 01:19:33,640 --> 01:19:39,239 how it discusses Florence here is that the pope wasn't really in the mindset of 981 01:19:39,399 --> 01:19:42,800 uniting the church. Is here, it was in a mindset of asserting his 982 01:19:42,880 --> 01:19:47,239 authority because there was Concealrism going around in the West or resulgence of it. 983 01:19:47,920 --> 01:19:53,239 So the ideas that the documents of Florence that just show a pope in a 984 01:19:53,560 --> 01:19:57,960 strong position that just asserts himself as he is not really it shows him in 985 01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:00,840 a position of weakness, trying to fight for keeping the control of his own 986 01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:06,920 flock at the expense of unity with the East. So it's so again the 987 01:20:08,000 --> 01:20:12,680 Greek bishops came thinking we're gonna, you know, Considrism is back, We're 988 01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:16,119 gonna be able to be treated as um as equals. And the pope just 989 01:20:16,199 --> 01:20:21,640 tried to be as strong as possible in order to reign in the Western bishops. 990 01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:26,720 And again that's a that's that's that's a big problem. It shows that 991 01:20:27,039 --> 01:20:30,960 that Rome here failed. Like if you think that this is terrible, this 992 01:20:30,039 --> 01:20:35,600 is tragic, his chism is bad. That's a huge failure by Rome because 993 01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:40,720 of the pope trying to inflate himself. That's literally what but Paul says, 994 01:20:41,119 --> 01:20:43,880 is going to cut you off from the church and to the Roman Church in 995 01:20:43,960 --> 01:20:46,000 Romans eleven. Yeah, it doesn't count. It doesn't count. It doesn't 996 01:20:46,079 --> 01:20:48,960 count. He's not talking to the church. He's talking only to delay people 997 01:20:48,960 --> 01:20:53,119 in the church. So that these are the deflections that you get with that. 998 01:20:53,279 --> 01:20:55,399 Yeah, yeah, I mean no, like, I'm not making a 999 01:20:55,479 --> 01:20:59,520 feel of complete theological augment here. I'm just saying that, No, I 1000 01:21:00,119 --> 01:21:01,399 agree with you, I agree that. I'm just saying that they have all 1001 01:21:01,439 --> 01:21:06,039 they all have all of these just ridiculous replies, right, Like Paul clearly 1002 01:21:06,119 --> 01:21:10,239 is saying to the entire Roman Church that if you're arrogant, you can be 1003 01:21:10,239 --> 01:21:14,159 cut off. No, he's only talking to the lay people in the church. 1004 01:21:14,199 --> 01:21:16,840 He's not saying what he's talking about. He's talking about the Church of 1005 01:21:16,960 --> 01:21:19,680 Rome. It's the letter to the church at Rome. That's all the people 1006 01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:23,920 in the church at Rome warning that you can be cut off anyway. I'm 1007 01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,840 just going on a tangent. Sorry, go ahead. No. So, 1008 01:21:26,840 --> 01:21:30,039 so that's the first take away that he's assertion, just like when i'm sometimes 1009 01:21:30,319 --> 01:21:33,960 it's not an assertion that that's made from a position of par a bit of 1010 01:21:34,039 --> 01:21:41,000 desperation, And that's what stops stops the discussion. And then of course it 1011 01:21:41,159 --> 01:21:46,840 explains that the council was held and the coersion, so coersion according to Saint 1012 01:21:46,880 --> 01:21:51,079 definitions, according to Roman Catholic apologies themselves. When it comes to Liberius, 1013 01:21:51,399 --> 01:21:55,119 I was gonna say, they'll say, they'll say Liberius doesn't count because it 1014 01:21:55,159 --> 01:21:58,640 was under coersion. Yeah, but here it says, oh, it doesn't 1015 01:21:58,680 --> 01:22:03,000 count because it's under coersion, like Florence was under coersion. It literally says 1016 01:22:03,039 --> 01:22:08,560 that it was accepted under pressure. So if we have canonical norms, if 1017 01:22:08,600 --> 01:22:12,159 we understand, you know, I think that's quite easy to understand, you 1018 01:22:12,199 --> 01:22:14,880 know, like we everybody agrees. You know, Epesis too is not a 1019 01:22:14,920 --> 01:22:20,840 comenical because they started to to ride during the council. Coersion is sufficient to 1020 01:22:21,239 --> 01:22:25,880 reject the authority and the legitimacy of of a council. And here it says 1021 01:22:25,880 --> 01:22:30,439 that there were coersions. So, um, you know I've seen apologies. 1022 01:22:30,600 --> 01:22:34,000 Oh actually no, actually it's not true. That's an Orthodox lander. That's 1023 01:22:34,039 --> 01:22:39,359 only in their sources. Well, we seem to agree here, so let's 1024 01:22:39,359 --> 01:22:45,840 be let's be charitable and um and go to the to the documents that both 1025 01:22:45,039 --> 01:22:54,079 churches approving or at least your church approves it um in terms of discussing with 1026 01:22:54,159 --> 01:22:58,199 all church. So yeah, that probably should be an important part. So 1027 01:22:58,560 --> 01:23:03,600 Um mentioned about Florence upholding the cannons at least at least giving lip service, 1028 01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:09,960 but that doesn't amount too much. But yeah, key takeaways. Rome doesn't 1029 01:23:09,960 --> 01:23:13,079 speak in a position of power, a bit of desperation, and that's what 1030 01:23:13,319 --> 01:23:18,920 derails the council. The Council is rejected on canonical grounds by the Greeks, 1031 01:23:19,000 --> 01:23:24,399 you know, as well as I do want to touch on, I don't 1032 01:23:24,399 --> 01:23:27,880 want to close out yet on this because I want to touch on Sardica and 1033 01:23:27,960 --> 01:23:32,840 Trollo because it admits a point that I said a long time ago that I'm 1034 01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:34,800 sorry. I don't mean to cut you off. I just don't want to 1035 01:23:35,039 --> 01:23:42,239 close out yet because that the paragraph nineteen is also an interesting admission to go 1036 01:23:42,239 --> 01:23:44,920 ahead and finish your thought. I just want to go to nineteen for sure, 1037 01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:48,600 like and another key takeaways that the Orthodox Church could, indeed and had 1038 01:23:48,640 --> 01:23:56,000 the authority to unite a dogmatic bindinge counsile in specifically rejecting the Council of Florence. 1039 01:23:56,760 --> 01:24:02,000 So that's also points we've been making all the time. Yeah, go 1040 01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:10,439 ahead, go ahead, David, whn' gona Wren't you gonna make a point 1041 01:24:10,439 --> 01:24:12,560 about Yeah, I want to. I just so, I don't want to. 1042 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,960 I want to give everybody the chance to talk. I just didn't want 1043 01:24:14,960 --> 01:24:19,560 to close it out without going to the admissions in paragraph nineteen, because I'll 1044 01:24:19,600 --> 01:24:23,439 pull it up in a second, but it says I'll read it. Over 1045 01:24:23,479 --> 01:24:26,720 the centuries, a number of appeals were made to the Bishop of Rome from 1046 01:24:26,800 --> 01:24:31,000 the East in disciplinary matters such as the deposition of a bishop. This was 1047 01:24:31,119 --> 01:24:34,159 made at the Synod of Sardica. Now, remember the Roman Calicism made a 1048 01:24:34,239 --> 01:24:38,840 huge deal of Sartica, and by the way, UBI has covered the Sartican 1049 01:24:39,279 --> 01:24:44,319 issue quite well over on his website, but it says that it established rules 1050 01:24:44,359 --> 01:24:48,000 for such procedure. Sartica was received at Trolo six ninety two, and the 1051 01:24:48,000 --> 01:24:51,399 Cannons of Sardica determined that a bishop who had been condemned could appeal to the 1052 01:24:51,399 --> 01:24:54,880 Bishop of Rome. Now, if you remember when I was arguing with a 1053 01:24:55,000 --> 01:24:58,239 bar years ago, I said, yeah, there was an appeals process, 1054 01:24:58,920 --> 01:25:01,439 and their argument assumption was that, oh, this is only to Rome. 1055 01:25:01,600 --> 01:25:06,000 Everyone could only just appealed because there are presupposing that the only appeals process was 1056 01:25:06,119 --> 01:25:12,000 just to Rome. Sardica is mentioning it was a local canon in the West, 1057 01:25:12,479 --> 01:25:15,239 mentioning, Yeah, you can appeal to Rome. However, listen to 1058 01:25:15,279 --> 01:25:20,960 this. It says the cannons a start determined that a bishop could be condemned. 1059 01:25:21,000 --> 01:25:24,119 If he was condemned, he could appeal to the Bishop of Rome, 1060 01:25:24,119 --> 01:25:26,880 and that the latter, if he deemed it appropriate, might order a retrial 1061 01:25:26,920 --> 01:25:30,840 to be conducted by bishops in the province neighboring the bishop's own. So number 1062 01:25:30,840 --> 01:25:35,720 one, the appeal is not Rome make the final decision. The appeal is 1063 01:25:35,720 --> 01:25:41,399 for a retrial with other bishops, which is not a Vatican One style thing. 1064 01:25:41,920 --> 01:25:47,600 Appeals regarding disciplinary matters were also made to Constantinople. That's exactly what I 1065 01:25:47,640 --> 01:25:51,720 said. I said the appeals appelate structure and system was not just to Rome, 1066 01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:59,439 because it's mentioned about Athanasius, as mentioned about Alexandria as also if I 1067 01:25:59,479 --> 01:26:02,720 recall up in this as well as Constantinople. No, you're looking it up. 1068 01:26:02,840 --> 01:26:06,039 It's just a row. Oh, here's your document admitting what I said 1069 01:26:06,319 --> 01:26:17,039 that there was an appeals process to other patriarchis yeah. And oh, by 1070 01:26:17,039 --> 01:26:19,079 the way, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. One last point, the last 1071 01:26:19,079 --> 01:26:21,359 sentence. I forgot the last sentence, it's the most important part. It 1072 01:26:21,359 --> 01:26:25,960 says, appeals to the Bishop of Rome from the east expressed the community of 1073 01:26:26,000 --> 01:26:30,800 the church. However, this does not mean the Bishop of Rome did not 1074 01:26:30,039 --> 01:26:34,960 exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East. Huge admission in point nineteen. 1075 01:26:35,399 --> 01:26:41,479 However, the Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches 1076 01:26:41,479 --> 01:26:45,439 of the East. I'm sorry, this is Kiati document. I went back 1077 01:26:45,439 --> 01:26:48,600 to the Kiati document. I wanted to mention that I've got both of these 1078 01:26:48,640 --> 01:26:51,319 documents pulled up and they're on the exact same website. So I was on 1079 01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:56,880 the wrong document. But Kiati document, paragraph nineteen is one of the key 1080 01:26:56,920 --> 01:27:00,840 points I wanted to mention in regard to the Avara. They excuse me, 1081 01:27:01,159 --> 01:27:04,319 Oh, yeah, that's yeah, that's fine. I guess we can move 1082 01:27:04,359 --> 01:27:10,000 to the section from the Reformation to the eighteenth century right chapter two, where 1083 01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:15,319 they talk about some of the things that occurred. Two point one. It 1084 01:27:15,359 --> 01:27:24,479 reaffirms the admission that Orthodoxy continues to practice the apostolic understanding of synodality, whereas 1085 01:27:25,520 --> 01:27:31,000 this document admits that there's further developments due to the Protestant Reformation that occurred, 1086 01:27:31,279 --> 01:27:35,760 and it's as synodality was still practiced in the East during this difficult periods. 1087 01:27:35,760 --> 01:27:42,520 And you know, while the Roman Catholic Church was dealing with certain issues in 1088 01:27:42,560 --> 01:27:47,039 the Vest, the Orthodox Church was dealing with issues of being under for example, 1089 01:27:47,359 --> 01:27:51,239 you know, Ottoman captivity and so on so forth. In two point 1090 01:27:51,399 --> 01:27:59,640 four it reaffirms this. Oh, it talks about various different other councils that 1091 01:27:59,640 --> 01:28:02,399 the Church accepted. Right, so this further disproused the whole You know, 1092 01:28:02,479 --> 01:28:06,439 you Orthodox can't have councils, you can't make decisions. I hear this over 1093 01:28:06,520 --> 01:28:10,199 and over and over and over again by many, many different Roman Camolics, 1094 01:28:10,199 --> 01:28:13,319 and they think that if they repeat this lie enough then it's just going to 1095 01:28:13,439 --> 01:28:16,039 end up being truth. But I'll just read the entires of two point four 1096 01:28:16,079 --> 01:28:21,399 because it's very important. The juridical Millet system assigned all Orthox living in the 1097 01:28:21,439 --> 01:28:26,880 Ottoman Empire, irrespective of ethnic considerations, to the room milet dependent upon the 1098 01:28:26,880 --> 01:28:31,319 echumenical patriarch of constant opal ecclesiastical and civil matters. This emphasized the latter central 1099 01:28:31,319 --> 01:28:35,720 position within the Orthodox Church known already from the canonical order right. This was 1100 01:28:35,800 --> 01:28:41,199 establishing the Second Council, then really very much confirmed in the four Tech Medical 1101 01:28:41,239 --> 01:28:45,119 Council Right Account twenty eight, and enhanced its importance visa v. The other 1102 01:28:45,159 --> 01:28:50,800 ancient patriarchates. Despite this new situation, the spirit of synodality was nevertheless preserved. 1103 01:28:51,199 --> 01:28:56,000 Councils were convoked by the chemical patriarch to resolve issues in a sonodal way, 1104 01:28:56,399 --> 01:28:59,680 such as the Council of constant Amum in fifteen ninety three to confer the 1105 01:28:59,680 --> 01:29:02,680 title of Patriarch granted early to the Metropolitan of Moscow, the Council of Yasi 1106 01:29:03,039 --> 01:29:09,880 to adjudicate the confessional faith of the Metropolitan Kiev Peter Morkila, and the two 1107 01:29:09,920 --> 01:29:13,960 Great Council of Constants Noble in sixteen thirty eight and sixteen forty two. Furduston 1108 01:29:14,000 --> 01:29:16,640 Alsfer convoked the Constants Opol sixteen seventy two sixteen ninety one, and by Patriarch 1109 01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:23,640 Dossitius in Jerusalem sixteen sixteen seventy two, which condemned the confessional faith attributed to 1110 01:29:23,680 --> 01:29:28,119 the patriarch Kira Lacariz So what we see here, and there's a there's a 1111 01:29:28,119 --> 01:29:30,479 different debate one can make about therese various different councils. But what we see 1112 01:29:30,560 --> 01:29:33,520 here is an admission from the stock and from the Roman Catholic Church that the 1113 01:29:33,600 --> 01:29:41,880 Orthodox Church did indeed make dogmatically bounding, concilier decisions even after the schism, 1114 01:29:41,920 --> 01:29:45,520 which showcases that from the perspective the Roman Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church can 1115 01:29:45,560 --> 01:29:51,079 make snodal dogmatic decisions that are bounding to all Orthodox Christians and Roman Catholics have 1116 01:29:51,199 --> 01:29:55,199 to understand this. This is not just us saying that your own church is 1117 01:29:55,239 --> 01:29:59,560 admitting this right now. You're not just listening. You're not just not listening 1118 01:29:59,600 --> 01:30:01,840 to us, You're also not listening to your own church. And that's that's 1119 01:30:01,880 --> 01:30:06,319 just ridiculous. And doesn't this prove, by the way, how ridiculous and 1120 01:30:06,439 --> 01:30:11,520 terrible the apologetics of Lofton and a Bara are. I mean, this is 1121 01:30:11,560 --> 01:30:16,960 basically constantly admitting every argument we've made against a lot of their arguments. I 1122 01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:20,279 mean, Trent Horne, where are you at bro This is this is admitting 1123 01:30:20,279 --> 01:30:24,520 all of our points. So when are the Roman caw that's going to stop 1124 01:30:24,520 --> 01:30:29,479 giving up their their tired old pop apologetics and start dealing with what their own 1125 01:30:29,560 --> 01:30:35,119 experts in Francis are admitting. Yeah, something else that's interesting from this same 1126 01:30:35,159 --> 01:30:41,920 section at two point seven, So talking about Russia, it mentions the reforms 1127 01:30:41,960 --> 01:30:46,359 of Peter's a great you know, it could be leaky, which basically like 1128 01:30:46,479 --> 01:30:51,239 it says it and it's just probably it's probably true to a large extent that 1129 01:30:51,399 --> 01:30:59,079 the church administration was reformed and the president models patriarch it was abolished and then 1130 01:31:00,199 --> 01:31:04,600 was a civil servant that administered a permanent synod. And it says that even 1131 01:31:04,640 --> 01:31:09,680 even even when strongly under the influence of the state, even at that point, 1132 01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:15,720 the synodal structure prevailed. And that's what we see today, like today 1133 01:31:15,039 --> 01:31:23,680 the Moscow patriarch it was re established, so um so sinodality even under this 1134 01:31:23,880 --> 01:31:27,920 sort of captivity, even with this kind of meddling, you know, which 1135 01:31:27,920 --> 01:31:30,640 is a classic argument as well, you know, or the church wasn't was 1136 01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:36,159 controlled by by the state, it's still prevailed. It still managed to to 1137 01:31:36,239 --> 01:31:40,960 take decisions and to participate to other decisions. You know, some of the 1138 01:31:40,960 --> 01:31:45,840 council we've mentioned were approved universally through also the reception of the Russian jurisdiction. 1139 01:31:46,800 --> 01:31:56,520 That's really interesting. Yeah, before we move out to chapter three, I 1140 01:31:56,560 --> 01:32:00,640 think there's some other additional comments made about Gallicanism, so people will be time 1141 01:32:00,680 --> 01:32:04,760 that if you also covered the whole Gallic history of Gallicanism. Uh, it's 1142 01:32:04,800 --> 01:32:12,680 specific, the specific part I am referring to give me a second, So 1143 01:32:12,720 --> 01:32:15,760 as you while you're looking for that, I want to be while you're looking 1144 01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:18,079 at that, I'm gonna note that. So in the chat, a lot 1145 01:32:18,119 --> 01:32:21,119 of the Roman Catholics and the people that are asking questions or whatever, it's 1146 01:32:21,119 --> 01:32:25,000 like, these are the you guys are bringing up the same old stuff that 1147 01:32:25,039 --> 01:32:29,520 we've always talked about for a million years, all of the same old objections 1148 01:32:29,520 --> 01:32:31,319 if you want to deal. So if you want the formula of her missed 1149 01:32:31,399 --> 01:32:34,840 us, there's ubi's article on that. We've covered that. Ubi's covered all 1150 01:32:34,880 --> 01:32:40,239 of this, So guys, look, just go read these articles because today 1151 01:32:40,319 --> 01:32:45,000 we're talking about the document from Alexandria and in the Kiati documents, so those 1152 01:32:45,000 --> 01:32:48,319 are the document We're not covering all these tired old Roman Catholic objections. We've 1153 01:32:48,319 --> 01:32:53,319 covered those a million times, So go look at those documents from UBI on 1154 01:32:53,399 --> 01:33:00,680 those specifics yeah, so yeah, I think we can go to Gallicanism. 1155 01:33:00,960 --> 01:33:03,920 I'd like you to have a word on Unionism as well because as a section 1156 01:33:03,960 --> 01:33:12,359 of this. But what's really interesting that um it shows that, of course 1157 01:33:12,359 --> 01:33:16,520 the vision of the pope was reinforced as a Council of Trent, but that 1158 01:33:17,239 --> 01:33:21,960 basically France maintained its own system. And I'm gonna I'm gonna read two point 1159 01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:28,760 three provincial synod aimed at implementing the Trenance in reform took place in Italy into 1160 01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:33,199 German Empire, in France, in the Polish between Commonwealth. Under political pressure, 1161 01:33:33,439 --> 01:33:39,520 the Roman Catholic bishops of Many Kingdom thought greater autonomy with regards to papal 1162 01:33:39,560 --> 01:33:43,880 primacy. So this was not being accepted. So all the arguments so you 1163 01:33:43,920 --> 01:33:48,079 know, oh, we're based monarchist and all like, no monarchy was seeing 1164 01:33:49,600 --> 01:33:57,439 seeing itself in conflict with people supremacy with these kind of claims, these episcopalis 1165 01:33:57,479 --> 01:34:02,680 tendencies example, Gallican them in France for Robbianism in Germany continue to advocate for 1166 01:34:02,720 --> 01:34:06,199 Conceleavism. This is a system that was in place in the Amber of Indians. 1167 01:34:06,239 --> 01:34:11,880 The ideas that bishops had specific rights this see that in cloth already. 1168 01:34:12,119 --> 01:34:16,119 But the ideas that it's it's it's it's a lingering tendency that appeared that after 1169 01:34:16,720 --> 01:34:21,920 the Council of Conscience is kind of weird. The French Revolution finally led to 1170 01:34:23,000 --> 01:34:27,920 the downfall of the ancier regime and to the destruction of the State Church, 1171 01:34:28,760 --> 01:34:32,680 which ultimately strengthened the ties between the Church of France and Rome, since after 1172 01:34:32,720 --> 01:34:38,479 the collapse of the order, only the papacy at the authority to reorganize the 1173 01:34:38,600 --> 01:34:44,760 church sees the conquered that of France and the Congress of Vienna. So this 1174 01:34:45,079 --> 01:34:49,800 is under Napoleon and post Napoleon. But you can see that all the arguments, 1175 01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:54,239 you know, all we fight against the revolution, oh we are based 1176 01:34:54,279 --> 01:34:58,640 monarchists and all this. No, the monarchy was seeing the papacy and these 1177 01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:02,680 kind of claims as a threat, and they did not allow the people meddling 1178 01:35:02,720 --> 01:35:06,720 into their affairs. Um, you know, to to to to a huge 1179 01:35:06,760 --> 01:35:14,159 extent. And the only thing that could actually make these paple centered reform happened 1180 01:35:15,079 --> 01:35:18,960 was literally as a tabula ras as a blank slate, the destruction of the 1181 01:35:19,039 --> 01:35:24,880 revolution. So the ideas that um, oh you know, That's that's really 1182 01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:30,199 common among many, many French frenchwoman Catholics is the ideas that all the true 1183 01:35:30,239 --> 01:35:34,239 friends is a monarchist friend, that that that fought against the revolution, and 1184 01:35:34,319 --> 01:35:39,039 we cannot accept the revolution. No. Literally, the Church of Friends was 1185 01:35:39,079 --> 01:35:44,600 also Cephalus Gallican. It was only snuffed out because of the revolution. Rome 1186 01:35:44,720 --> 01:35:55,119 came only by signing Concorde that vives the post revolutionary authorities. Literally, I 1187 01:35:55,159 --> 01:35:59,159 mean, I'm not saying that Rome made this happen, but just like the 1188 01:35:59,199 --> 01:36:02,039 Siege of constantly it benefited from it. It's the same thing that you see 1189 01:36:02,640 --> 01:36:08,840 at the time of the revolution in Russia in nineteen seventeen. After you see, 1190 01:36:08,880 --> 01:36:14,000 for example, um Roman Catholic apologies and someone saying, oh no, 1191 01:36:14,119 --> 01:36:16,239 that sorry is dead. So so we can't we can't, we can't go 1192 01:36:16,279 --> 01:36:20,479 in, we can't benefit from the tabula rasa. That's a terrible thing to 1193 01:36:20,520 --> 01:36:25,560 admit, you know. Basically, the only reason why the Church of France 1194 01:36:25,760 --> 01:36:31,880 is not a Galican autocephalis under a king church like it always was since Clovis, 1195 01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:36,279 since the establishment of the Kingdom of the Franks, is because of the 1196 01:36:36,359 --> 01:36:42,600 revolution. That's huge politically, I mean, in terms of fact, the 1197 01:36:42,640 --> 01:36:49,720 zoology probably less, but in terms of the ecclesial identity of a French person, 1198 01:36:50,239 --> 01:36:55,039 you can see that there's a Galicans were opposed to that, and you 1199 01:36:55,039 --> 01:37:00,520 can see that in personalities like a Begette for example, who was Gallican. 1200 01:37:00,680 --> 01:37:03,960 He came a little bit after because it was a resurgence of Galican he identified 1201 01:37:04,000 --> 01:37:13,800 clearly the papal claims, the ultimunting claims as a threat to the legitimate French 1202 01:37:13,880 --> 01:37:17,439 government. Yeah, because remember, as we'd said, the paper suit had 1203 01:37:17,479 --> 01:37:24,800 already become very much a geopolitical power. And so that's also admitted in two 1204 01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,560 point six, where it says that with all of these attempted reunion councils like 1205 01:37:29,720 --> 01:37:35,560 brassed, Croatia, Transylvania, uzlod Serbia, it says the motives for these 1206 01:37:35,680 --> 01:37:42,399 unions have been contested. There was probably some real desire, but there's a 1207 01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:45,520 lot of political influence as well. So it's like, haven't we always been 1208 01:37:45,560 --> 01:37:48,680 saying that the motivation for this wasn't anything to do with theology, but it 1209 01:37:48,720 --> 01:37:54,199 was it was papal all right, yeah exactly, and this document saying yeah, 1210 01:37:54,239 --> 01:38:00,840 I mean, it says religious and political factors were frequently intertwined. Oh 1211 01:38:00,880 --> 01:38:04,039 yeah, like if you see Poland, it's a it's a shift after the 1212 01:38:04,399 --> 01:38:11,439 end of the Regalian dynasty, the shift towards more centralism with links to Rome. 1213 01:38:11,520 --> 01:38:15,039 You can see that. You can see that also with the mail Kites 1214 01:38:16,560 --> 01:38:21,279 or in the in the far is Many. Often it was linked to the 1215 01:38:21,439 --> 01:38:30,680 establishment and ability to to enter some school institutions on so um it was, 1216 01:38:30,720 --> 01:38:33,119 it was baiting people. It was done in yes, INDs that are not 1217 01:38:33,199 --> 01:38:39,840 theological. You can even say coersion sometimes which again we've we've seen is is 1218 01:38:39,840 --> 01:38:44,760 even an instigating factor. So the ideas that unionism is actually seen proceed as 1219 01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:47,840 a threat to ordunity, something that Rome admits. Now, So the ideas 1220 01:38:47,840 --> 01:38:51,000 that oh I'm going to be I'm gonna go to an Eastern Catholic shich, 1221 01:38:51,079 --> 01:38:55,920 I'm going to be a union to be able to um to to evil, 1222 01:38:55,960 --> 01:38:59,920 that Rome itself says, I think if I don't know if it's in Baliament, 1223 01:39:00,079 --> 01:39:04,000 if it's in the CUBAD document, that it's not a valid way to 1224 01:39:04,039 --> 01:39:09,000 proceed anymore because it's perceived as a threat. Rightfully, so according to the 1225 01:39:09,079 --> 01:39:12,560 document. Well keep in mind too, just the mere fact that the pope 1226 01:39:12,560 --> 01:39:16,880 has removed the triple crown, which the triple crown was signified his authority over 1227 01:39:17,000 --> 01:39:19,760 the temporal domain. I mean, the Trads make a big deal about this 1228 01:39:19,800 --> 01:39:24,560 because it's a symbolic gesture that. Okay, by the way, I'm not 1229 01:39:24,640 --> 01:39:29,960 interested in geopolitical power and supremacy over all temporal authorities like I used to be. 1230 01:39:30,159 --> 01:39:32,439 Like when I'm signed them says you have to believe for salvation, so 1231 01:39:32,439 --> 01:39:38,079 so to be saved in the time of you know, when I'm signed them, 1232 01:39:38,079 --> 01:39:41,119 I had to believe in the temporal power of the Roman bishop. Since 1233 01:39:41,159 --> 01:39:44,720 the pope now and Vatican two documents say we're no longer concerned with that. 1234 01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:47,760 Now it's no longer necessarily for salvation. So you understand that the Roman Catholic 1235 01:39:47,880 --> 01:39:54,640 system evolving theology means evolving criteria for salvation. I only know what I mean. 1236 01:39:54,720 --> 01:39:56,520 It depends on the pope at the time, right, I mean, 1237 01:39:56,600 --> 01:40:00,840 ultimately, my salvation depend upon what the present day papacy sent, which is 1238 01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:03,039 ridiculous, and they will actually say, well, that's also the keys, 1239 01:40:03,079 --> 01:40:06,800 bro also the keys. You gotta believe whatever's going on now at the present 1240 01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:15,880 time, How can the requirement for salvation change. That's crazy. I mean, 1241 01:40:15,000 --> 01:40:19,800 ultimately that's a longer traditional religion. That's just a pure cult of authority. 1242 01:40:19,840 --> 01:40:23,720 I think Ji jac makes this point. It just says that at this 1243 01:40:23,800 --> 01:40:28,119 point is just followed with now that's yeah exactly, that's the same justin Popovitch, 1244 01:40:28,119 --> 01:40:30,000 that's the same thing too. It's a worship of authority. It's a 1245 01:40:30,000 --> 01:40:34,920 pure, pure cult of authority exactly. Lelinger says that at this point the 1246 01:40:35,000 --> 01:40:40,199 pope is just an oracle of the Tiber, meaning that you you have someone 1247 01:40:40,279 --> 01:40:45,039 that that is himselves the tradition and the only way to interpret previous traditions. 1248 01:40:45,039 --> 01:40:48,880 So you cannot look into tradition like people's done. You cannot look into a 1249 01:40:48,880 --> 01:40:53,960 book because you know, we're still a religion of scripture. You need to 1250 01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:58,399 wrap the magic lamp and ask you your question. You need to consult the 1251 01:40:58,399 --> 01:41:02,840 oracle of the Tiber. So that was that was an argument early early Christian 1252 01:41:02,880 --> 01:41:08,199 would make against against the pagan saying, hey, you don't have a solid 1253 01:41:08,239 --> 01:41:11,680 grounding. Yeah, yeah, like you go half of you don't believe in 1254 01:41:11,720 --> 01:41:15,680 your own tradition and and you don't have a unified texture towards it. We 1255 01:41:16,960 --> 01:41:24,680 we're back to square one, a pure pagan worship avority exactly, all right, 1256 01:41:24,680 --> 01:41:27,079 what's next year, I think? And I think, I mean it's 1257 01:41:27,159 --> 01:41:30,439 Chapter three pretty much starts with semi admitting this, right, I mean, 1258 01:41:30,479 --> 01:41:34,239 it talks about how the papacy adopted the douction of the Church as a perfect 1259 01:41:34,239 --> 01:41:40,640 society, meaning that the Church was an independent, autonomous and sovereign society in 1260 01:41:40,680 --> 01:41:44,680 her own sphere of competence, just as the state was sovereign in temporal affairs. 1261 01:41:45,479 --> 01:41:49,079 And what it says then next, well, not what it says next, 1262 01:41:49,119 --> 01:41:55,399 but I mean combine this at Vatican one and other papal declarations in the 1263 01:41:55,439 --> 01:42:00,319 past. Um, this is basically admitting that started in nineteenth century church, 1264 01:42:00,640 --> 01:42:04,960 the Roman Catholic Church saw itself as the head of pretty much both temporal society 1265 01:42:05,479 --> 01:42:10,800 and you know, heavenly that is, ecclesial society. So this kind of 1266 01:42:10,840 --> 01:42:16,000 like amassing of authority, right that gradually occurred over time, is really manifesting 1267 01:42:16,039 --> 01:42:21,880 itself in Vatican one. And it also knows in three point two talks about 1268 01:42:21,920 --> 01:42:27,720 an epistle where it argues that the supreme authority of the Roman puntist was always 1269 01:42:27,760 --> 01:42:30,880 recognized in the East it's really interesting that you know, it mentions this epistle, 1270 01:42:30,920 --> 01:42:33,760 but then this document self say as well, actually the epistle is kind 1271 01:42:33,760 --> 01:42:40,199 of wrong, and that to me is quite strange. I mean, it 1272 01:42:40,199 --> 01:42:43,640 doesn't say it's in the period, doesn't say it explicitly, but I mean 1273 01:42:43,720 --> 01:42:47,760 when it talks about papal supremacy, it calls it papal premacy, but really 1274 01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:51,960 the more correct term is papal supremacy. This document miss people's supremacy as being 1275 01:42:53,000 --> 01:42:58,000 a doctrine of development, right, and so in a sense Suprema Petrio Pistoli 1276 01:42:58,079 --> 01:43:01,920 said it right in eighteen forty, which got responded by Dorstock's patriarchs in the 1277 01:43:02,319 --> 01:43:06,840 Encyclical Letter of eighteen forty eight. This documents a meaning that throwing a Catholic 1278 01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:12,880 perspective is also wrong at the very least. Yeah, and it's not just 1279 01:43:12,920 --> 01:43:17,119 that. Also, Southeast Cognidium says that as well. And the argumentation of 1280 01:43:17,199 --> 01:43:23,359 postereturnis is the reasons in a similar way, which is that it's not based 1281 01:43:23,359 --> 01:43:27,760 on development, it's based on what was always the case and always recognized. 1282 01:43:27,960 --> 01:43:31,920 But they trade on that ammiguity there, well, what exactly was recognized the 1283 01:43:33,279 --> 01:43:39,279 peter as the korifaus peter As first peter as As. This document says that 1284 01:43:39,319 --> 01:43:44,319 the Bishop of Rome giving canonical privileges. Yeah, that's always been recognized, 1285 01:43:44,800 --> 01:43:49,239 but that doesn't translate into Vatican one's claims of universal supremacy and jurisdiction. That 1286 01:43:49,359 --> 01:43:54,920 was not always recognized, and so that's why they have to again, guys, 1287 01:43:54,960 --> 01:43:57,560 don't you understand. It's like people, it's like talking to the slow 1288 01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:00,439 boys out there, like you can't. On the one hand, argued that 1289 01:44:00,439 --> 01:44:02,479 it was always the case and clear, but it was also the case that 1290 01:44:02,520 --> 01:44:06,239 it was never clear and it required development. Those two things are mutually exclusive. 1291 01:44:06,279 --> 01:44:14,840 They can't both be true, yeah, exactly. And then it first 1292 01:44:14,920 --> 01:44:20,359 talks about it talks about a council that Ortodox did to condemn the philotism and 1293 01:44:20,439 --> 01:44:27,119 how the echemical Patriot granted autocephaly the Church of Greece, Serbia, Romania due 1294 01:44:27,159 --> 01:44:30,680 to the situations that occurred at the time, right, the movement in the 1295 01:44:30,760 --> 01:44:35,600 Balkans between the balcan you know, the Greek people, the Serbian people remaining 1296 01:44:35,640 --> 01:44:39,520 people against you know, the Turkish government and so on and so forth. 1297 01:44:40,199 --> 01:44:44,279 And it talks about, you know, the first Vatican Council, but I 1298 01:44:44,279 --> 01:44:48,119 think I think particularly if it does, it still makes comments about conciliarism, 1299 01:44:49,880 --> 01:44:55,359 though I think Jay, you will definitely be more in line with kind of 1300 01:44:55,399 --> 01:45:00,359 referring, like talking about what passed their turns was the first balls council talk. 1301 01:45:00,560 --> 01:45:03,680 I just want to retrate something I said at the beginning, which is 1302 01:45:03,840 --> 01:45:08,159 three point eleven. I want to read this. It says Pope Leo the 1303 01:45:08,199 --> 01:45:13,439 thirties epistock letter Orientalium Dignitas in eighteen ninety four recognize the distinct rights of all 1304 01:45:13,520 --> 01:45:16,600 the Catholic Eastern churches and show the respectful approach to Eastern traditions. So this 1305 01:45:16,640 --> 01:45:21,600 is where you start this kind of acceptance of Eastern traditions over time, and 1306 01:45:21,640 --> 01:45:30,319 it's sporadically increasing this moment sporadically increasing. Then his encyclical letter Praclea Grazola in 1307 01:45:30,359 --> 01:45:32,680 eighteen ninety five invited all the Orthodox to union with the Church of Roman the 1308 01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:39,479 condition that they recognize the papal supremacy of jurisdiction. So here you see very 1309 01:45:39,479 --> 01:45:43,680 clearly that at the end of the day, at the end of nineteenth century, 1310 01:45:43,760 --> 01:45:45,199 all all you need to do as an Orcholized Christian in order to be 1311 01:45:45,319 --> 01:45:49,000 united with the Roman Catholic Church. Turns out, you can keep your faith, 1312 01:45:49,039 --> 01:45:51,560 you can keep your doctrines, so you can keep everything that you have. 1313 01:45:53,159 --> 01:45:56,119 You just need to kiss the papal feet. Right, that's basically what 1314 01:45:56,279 --> 01:45:59,520 it's telling you. Right, And it's oh, yeah, that's a great 1315 01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:04,920 admission, exactly, great admission. Yeah. And the Orthodox basically rejected this, 1316 01:46:05,039 --> 01:46:08,319 right. The Ortodox said, this is ridiculous, We're not going to 1317 01:46:08,359 --> 01:46:10,479 accept this. Well. By the way, by the way, we should 1318 01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:14,800 add that the eighteen or nineteen of Kiaty, which we just read, says 1319 01:46:14,840 --> 01:46:19,439 the opposite of this, right. It notes that the very criteria that Leo 1320 01:46:19,600 --> 01:46:24,800 is asking for here is not the historic position of the church. So wait 1321 01:46:24,800 --> 01:46:30,439 a minute, Kiati says that I have to accept something that So Kiati says, 1322 01:46:30,439 --> 01:46:33,840 it's not the historic position, but Leo's letter says that it is the 1323 01:46:33,960 --> 01:46:38,880 necessary position to accept. So why am I forced to accept something that is 1324 01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:43,880 admittedly not the traditional position of the church. You see how these contradict Kia 1325 01:46:44,119 --> 01:46:46,399 eighteen or nineteen or whatever it is. Let me read it again, because 1326 01:46:46,399 --> 01:46:53,000 I got them both pulled up here. Kati nineteen says, quote appeals to 1327 01:46:53,079 --> 01:46:56,960 the Bishop of Rome from the east expressed communion of the church, but the 1328 01:46:57,000 --> 01:47:00,880 Bishop of Rome did not exercise canonical authority over the churches of the East, 1329 01:47:01,159 --> 01:47:05,359 quote unquote. That's nineteen f K eighty. And what does this say right 1330 01:47:05,359 --> 01:47:11,079 here? It says that the requirement according to Leo the thirteenth was that you 1331 01:47:11,159 --> 01:47:15,760 accept precisely that which is admitted to be not the case. So that's called 1332 01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:27,279 a contradiction Roman Catholics contradiction. I'd like to comment on this section as a 1333 01:47:27,319 --> 01:47:34,439 whole. I think I think here m Philes's scope is looking towards the talks 1334 01:47:34,439 --> 01:47:39,840 of twenty twenty five. I think it's strength to prop up Constantinople quite a 1335 01:47:39,840 --> 01:47:45,960 bit. And I think it's it's absolutely displaying documents that we would say are 1336 01:47:45,039 --> 01:47:50,279 in debate as having full authority. So that's funny because that would be the 1337 01:47:50,439 --> 01:47:58,479 run Catholic side saying that the Orthodox actually have more counsels and more and more 1338 01:47:58,520 --> 01:48:03,920 authoritative documents, and the Orthodox themselves admit, so considering the classic argument as 1339 01:48:03,920 --> 01:48:11,119 to say that we don't, it's a bit contradictory. And I think it's 1340 01:48:11,119 --> 01:48:18,960 going to say that the primercial role of Constantinople is Um. It's is really 1341 01:48:18,960 --> 01:48:23,800 bolstered up to the point that it doesn't really mention, for example, the 1342 01:48:23,840 --> 01:48:30,000 fact that the Jerusalem Council of the o Theseus wasn't made by Constantinople. It 1343 01:48:30,159 --> 01:48:35,199 was made against a patriarch of Constantinople, Lucres. So I think it really 1344 01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:41,119 skips a little bit on this on this part, even though it admitted it 1345 01:48:41,159 --> 01:48:46,640 was binding council before. So I think here's a goal would be too legitimize 1346 01:48:47,560 --> 01:48:54,000 some more Roman powers by saying, hey, Constantinople can have that too, 1347 01:48:54,039 --> 01:48:58,840 but in the East. So um, this is another part of the No, 1348 01:48:58,920 --> 01:49:01,560 you're absolutely right preparing for twenty twelve object a little bit too, because 1349 01:49:02,359 --> 01:49:06,680 something in discussion within the action. Because it is true, it is factual 1350 01:49:06,760 --> 01:49:14,920 that autocephalis were historically confirmed by Constantinople. But you know, we can also 1351 01:49:14,920 --> 01:49:19,319 say that many churches confirmed them, and that maybe constant Aople gave the impetus, 1352 01:49:19,359 --> 01:49:25,600 but it cannot act supremely on that. And I think it goes back 1353 01:49:25,600 --> 01:49:30,319 to Cannon thirty four, which is which is great, which is great and 1354 01:49:30,399 --> 01:49:35,800 very balanced, which is to say that the synod cannot oppose the decision of 1355 01:49:35,920 --> 01:49:42,640 the Primate. But the Primate cannot go against the decision the decisions of the 1356 01:49:42,640 --> 01:49:45,520 Synod, so they need to act intendem And I think here it's doing two 1357 01:49:45,560 --> 01:49:50,159 proplemsatople as much as possible, but it's it's still quite tame compared to some 1358 01:49:50,239 --> 01:49:55,880 of the papal claim Real quick, let's do that. I just want everyone 1359 01:49:55,960 --> 01:50:00,960 to see, because I know how the slow boys in the audience operate. 1360 01:50:00,399 --> 01:50:03,720 They're not going to pay attention to what we said. They're going to blow 1361 01:50:03,760 --> 01:50:08,359 pass it and ignore it. Okay, to make this really easy for you 1362 01:50:08,439 --> 01:50:12,319 guys, on the left of the screen three point eleven, you'll see what 1363 01:50:12,439 --> 01:50:17,079 David was talking about. Put Leo the thirteenth Letter or Intallium dignatatas right dignata 1364 01:50:17,119 --> 01:50:23,840 excuse me, recognize distinct rights of all the Catholic Eastern Churches and show to 1365 01:50:23,920 --> 01:50:33,199 respect for their traditions. His encyclical letter Preclara rutilationis invited all the Orthodox to 1366 01:50:33,319 --> 01:50:39,159 union with the Church of Rome on the condition that they recognize the primacy papal 1367 01:50:39,159 --> 01:50:45,119 premacy of jurisdiction. Okay, that's the present day Alexandria document on the right 1368 01:50:45,159 --> 01:50:47,600 of the screen. You'll see the Kiati document in paragraph nineteen a few years 1369 01:50:47,600 --> 01:50:51,159 ago. Both of these are similar documents. What does it say there? 1370 01:50:51,560 --> 01:50:58,399 Appeals to disciplinary matters were made also to Constantinople and other seas. You see 1371 01:50:58,439 --> 01:51:01,920 that that was my point against the bar. Such appeals to major sis were 1372 01:51:01,920 --> 01:51:05,800 always treated in a synautical way. Appeals to the Bishop of Rome from the 1373 01:51:05,840 --> 01:51:10,479 east express the community of the church, but the Bishop of Rome did not 1374 01:51:10,680 --> 01:51:15,199 exercise canonical authority over the churches of the east. Do you see these admissions 1375 01:51:15,239 --> 01:51:17,640 and do you see that that's a contradiction. The document on the left is 1376 01:51:17,640 --> 01:51:23,960 admitting that Leo the thirteenth's attitude is that you must accept the ancient view, 1377 01:51:24,279 --> 01:51:30,720 the traditional Vatican One view, that the Roman bishop has universal authority and canonical 1378 01:51:30,760 --> 01:51:35,000 authority over all churches. The document on the right says in the first thousand 1379 01:51:35,079 --> 01:51:41,640 years he didn't have that authority and exercise. That's called a contradiction Roman Catholics. 1380 01:51:42,000 --> 01:51:45,119 Do you see that counter argument would be to say, oh, like, 1381 01:51:45,199 --> 01:51:51,800 he didn't have canonical jurisdiction, but he still had this charism of universal 1382 01:51:51,960 --> 01:51:58,600 jurisdiction and beings ahead of the church that he didn't use it, and it 1383 01:51:58,680 --> 01:52:01,960 wasn't recognized by Zeas and it wasn't reflected in Canada. Yeah, that's called 1384 01:52:01,960 --> 01:52:06,840 being unfalsifiable arguments from silence. It was there always and never used it. 1385 01:52:06,840 --> 01:52:11,840 It was secret hidden powers. By the way, this is the practical system 1386 01:52:11,920 --> 01:52:14,920 which makes it all easy and simple. And the post shit, why didn't 1387 01:52:14,920 --> 01:52:17,880 he just use these powers? Eric, Well, the pope hurd these powers, 1388 01:52:18,000 --> 01:52:23,960 but he just didn't use it retricides. But the way I'm getting I 1389 01:52:23,960 --> 01:52:28,880 mean thing is an argument of silence. Suppose that there is no direct count 1390 01:52:29,039 --> 01:52:32,520 argument Like an argument of silence would would say, oh cannon, now sort 1391 01:52:32,560 --> 01:52:40,680 of leftist spot for this to happen, whereas we can see clearly the opposite 1392 01:52:40,720 --> 01:52:45,720 practice and being enshrined. You know, name needs autophais and all exactly like 1393 01:52:46,560 --> 01:52:50,079 yeah, Like you're pretty much begging the question if you're saying this power exists, 1394 01:52:50,079 --> 01:52:56,439 but it wasn't used, it wasn't demonstrated, nobody felt a need to 1395 01:52:56,439 --> 01:53:00,159 to proclaim it. Well, I mean again, so does that make things 1396 01:53:00,279 --> 01:53:04,359 easy and simple? If this power is there to resolve the problems, but 1397 01:53:04,720 --> 01:53:09,319 the papacy is not smart enough to use the power that it has to resolve 1398 01:53:09,399 --> 01:53:14,000 the problems. And by the way, the classical you know, proof text, 1399 01:53:14,039 --> 01:53:19,880 but this would be um, you know, papal other jurisdiction appealing to 1400 01:53:19,920 --> 01:53:27,479 the pope or people document being said and being ratified by everybody. But as 1401 01:53:27,520 --> 01:53:30,840 the document of Kitty itself says, well, this is not something that that 1402 01:53:30,000 --> 01:53:34,840 strictly existing the Pope. And this idea of you know, sending documents for 1403 01:53:34,920 --> 01:53:42,079 approval by us as isn't really right. Isn't really the papacy in his claim, 1404 01:53:42,119 --> 01:53:45,920 it's just manifesting is a unity or oh yeah, remember when I brought 1405 01:53:45,920 --> 01:53:48,560 that up to Erica barn I said, why didn't everybody just write letters to 1406 01:53:48,640 --> 01:53:51,880 the Pope to have all the issues settled? And he said, because the 1407 01:53:53,039 --> 01:53:57,239 vet can be full of paper stucks everywhere. You wouldn't have time to get 1408 01:53:57,279 --> 01:54:06,760 through more. Okay, uh, what's the case You can't You couldn't use 1409 01:54:06,800 --> 01:54:12,720 examples for example of Liqui the papercin to evening and nobody caring in case exactly 1410 01:54:13,279 --> 01:54:18,640 resecution and you know that I cannot clause if it was case closed because Ron 1411 01:54:18,720 --> 01:54:23,199 took Yeah, many cases would have been closed. Yeah, but you're east 1412 01:54:24,399 --> 01:54:27,760 remember they'll use the art they'll they'll use the letter of Clement to try to 1413 01:54:27,760 --> 01:54:30,079 act like that's how the church operated in the first century. Oh, we 1414 01:54:30,159 --> 01:54:33,560 just asked Clement. Clement writes a letter and solves the disputes in the Church 1415 01:54:33,600 --> 01:54:38,560 of Corinth from you know, eight hundred miles away or whatever, five hundred 1416 01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:42,319 miles what however for our Corinth. But so they'll be like, oh, 1417 01:54:42,359 --> 01:54:47,520 look see quote Clement is uh, just with a swipe of the pen resolving 1418 01:54:47,520 --> 01:54:51,640 the issues in a church, you know, one hundred miles away. Again, 1419 01:54:51,680 --> 01:54:57,439 at this point, it just means that had been communicating, uh, 1420 01:54:57,520 --> 01:55:03,239 you know, calling someone forehead means that he has follow over you against that 1421 01:55:03,319 --> 01:55:10,840 speaking the question. But but but yeah, but but it's but it's it's 1422 01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:13,479 saying, well, but wait a minute. So if it was there that 1423 01:55:13,520 --> 01:55:16,359 whole time, then it didn't develop as a seed form. How can Clement 1424 01:55:16,479 --> 01:55:23,560 be exercising full full universal Vatican one jurisdiction. It's supremacy, and yet it's 1425 01:55:23,560 --> 01:55:27,399 something that has to develop, you see. So it can't be both of 1426 01:55:27,439 --> 01:55:30,159 those things. As my point, it can't be always there, clear as 1427 01:55:30,239 --> 01:55:35,239 day, existing as an exercisable power, but it's also not always there. 1428 01:55:35,279 --> 01:55:43,720 It developed you see yeah, yeah, and two two clothing that this documentarily 1429 01:55:43,800 --> 01:55:49,640 says that it's it's a development and Satisco Nisum says it's not a development, 1430 01:55:49,680 --> 01:55:56,920 it was always there or what do you guys want to go to next? 1431 01:55:59,199 --> 01:56:03,119 Yeah, I mean chapter four kind of just talks about some like it gives 1432 01:56:03,159 --> 01:56:12,000 an overview to very stifferin eclesiological views across various different parties. I suppose the 1433 01:56:12,119 --> 01:56:16,680 one thing to me, this tribo really interests me too much. I guess 1434 01:56:16,800 --> 01:56:21,720 it talks a little bit about the constos subornos, which again it was developed 1435 01:56:21,720 --> 01:56:28,319 by in nineteenth century Russia, but it kind of just goes over the history 1436 01:56:28,319 --> 01:56:31,960 of this position, so you kind of see that this kind of understanding didn't 1437 01:56:32,000 --> 01:56:36,880 really influence the church as a whole, but rather a specific part of the 1438 01:56:36,960 --> 01:56:42,039 church, which I think SEC already got into the history of the history of 1439 01:56:42,079 --> 01:56:45,119 the Russian Church and kind of how it got out of the mess that it 1440 01:56:45,279 --> 01:56:49,760 ended up getting out of today. And other than that, I suppose one 1441 01:56:50,039 --> 01:56:55,600 view that kind of like some of these views are like the ecoistic ecclesiology view 1442 01:56:55,680 --> 01:56:58,560 and the kind of the church's communion. I mean, these are kind of 1443 01:56:58,600 --> 01:57:01,680 interesting views, but the Vede it is described here in this document is a 1444 01:57:01,720 --> 01:57:06,800 bit too broad, which is fine because it's you know, the document is 1445 01:57:06,840 --> 01:57:12,279 kind of just going over several different views, and the main part of the 1446 01:57:12,319 --> 01:57:15,319 document is interesting is kind of admissions that it makes. And I think that 1447 01:57:15,319 --> 01:57:18,840 I want to kind of point out actually, now that I remember the it 1448 01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:26,279 kind of treats it props up Creates twenty sixteen way too much. Whereas everyone 1449 01:57:26,279 --> 01:57:29,039 who knows a little bit about the Council of Creed knows that in fact it 1450 01:57:29,199 --> 01:57:36,359 didn't really have complete Catholic pan Orthodox acceptance. Many different churches didn't show up. 1451 01:57:38,680 --> 01:57:43,439 The documents did, but they didn't discuss what they plan to discuss um. 1452 01:57:44,520 --> 01:57:48,760 So basically the fourth part is it's a history of ecumunism, so um, 1453 01:57:48,800 --> 01:57:53,560 you know, that's something that's still contested to an extent on both sides. 1454 01:57:54,720 --> 01:58:00,840 Really interesting is, you know, is they share they expressed what theological 1455 01:58:00,880 --> 01:58:04,479 concept we're shared and for example, in mentioning so bonus so the idea that 1456 01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:09,880 everybody is involved, which is true to an extent. But I think here 1457 01:58:09,920 --> 01:58:13,439 they are just trying to to attack a little bit of in the traditionist position, 1458 01:58:13,520 --> 01:58:19,520 which is which is like only only clerical because in Romes they've they've really 1459 01:58:19,520 --> 01:58:25,119 got this um. It's back and forth in this fight right now, and 1460 01:58:25,159 --> 01:58:28,880 you can see that in their council that they're really doing everything they can to 1461 01:58:29,000 --> 01:58:35,279 promote the authority of parish council women. They're doing everything they can to promote 1462 01:58:38,439 --> 01:58:41,239 basically they have this fight, and I think it's it's mostly linked to the 1463 01:58:41,279 --> 01:58:46,119 fact that historically and socially, because of mandatory celibacy, the priest wasn't often 1464 01:58:46,159 --> 01:58:51,840 really included in the parish life. Yeah, so maybe less important, but 1465 01:58:51,880 --> 01:58:55,920 they're still saying, also bonus is interesting, which you know, yes, 1466 01:58:55,960 --> 01:59:00,760 it's interesting, but it also has its limits. It talks about eucharistic zoology, 1467 01:59:00,319 --> 01:59:04,039 and we would say that it's it's very important because that's that's the earliest 1468 01:59:04,039 --> 01:59:10,439 the classiology we have. That's from Sipron of coffee, that's from especially Ignacious 1469 01:59:10,479 --> 01:59:15,239 of Antioch, and that's how we explained communion, you know, because the 1470 01:59:15,319 --> 01:59:19,039 classic Roman system would be saying that the church is submission to Rome. But 1471 01:59:19,239 --> 01:59:24,479 here there is this idea that you know, the church can communicate with one 1472 01:59:24,560 --> 01:59:29,920 another through communion. Yeah, and that's important. But I think that this 1473 01:59:30,039 --> 01:59:32,439 document is propping it up to say, hey, maybe we just try to 1474 01:59:32,520 --> 01:59:39,720 re establish communion, to make your union before having all this all this um 1475 01:59:40,399 --> 01:59:44,680 right, which which is, like you said, is preparation for twenty You 1476 01:59:44,720 --> 01:59:47,760 know, even I think even banned the sixteen said maybe we should try to 1477 01:59:47,920 --> 01:59:54,520 solve the problems, you know, theological and actually before communion. Maybe, 1478 01:59:54,439 --> 01:59:59,079 yeah, the community, it shouldn't be done before in the hope that it 1479 01:59:59,119 --> 02:00:02,079 would be solved, but should be done after when it's done, which is 1480 02:00:02,079 --> 02:00:06,399 what the plentitude of the community means. But these had two points that kind 1481 02:00:06,399 --> 02:00:10,880 of stick out. Apart from that, it's just a history of a communism, 1482 02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:18,560 Yeah exactly. I mean, how can you have a reunion without the 1483 02:00:18,600 --> 02:00:25,359 issues that separate being sold? First, I mean, union presupposes truth, 1484 02:00:25,560 --> 02:00:32,199 and it presupposes union of doctrial matters. And you know, the papal system 1485 02:00:32,319 --> 02:00:38,720 is a system that doesn't admit to much flexibility. Even though these documents are 1486 02:00:38,760 --> 02:00:45,760 being quote unquote flexible and making a lot of admissions to our position. The 1487 02:00:45,880 --> 02:00:47,960 nature of the Vatican One papal system, which has already been set in stone, 1488 02:00:48,159 --> 02:00:53,199 is inflexible. So it's great that they're admitting all these things, But 1489 02:00:53,560 --> 02:00:58,880 why are they wanting us to sign onto a system which all of Vatican one 1490 02:00:59,199 --> 02:01:03,319 is completely rigid and completely set in stone. And the traads you know, 1491 02:01:03,399 --> 02:01:09,319 quote unquote that are constantly harping on Vatican one, contradicting Vatican two and so 1492 02:01:09,399 --> 02:01:14,039 forth, they are absolutely correct. There is a contradiction between what's being admitted 1493 02:01:14,079 --> 02:01:17,399 in these documents and Vatican one. And I'm sorry, but contradictions at the 1494 02:01:17,479 --> 02:01:24,159 papal and dogmatic level amount to this system itself being false. You understand that 1495 02:01:24,199 --> 02:01:28,600 these are exclusive systems for Roman Catholics out there, So the a lot of 1496 02:01:28,720 --> 02:01:30,600 Roman Caloitis will be like, well, look, why can't you guys just 1497 02:01:30,920 --> 02:01:33,399 we're being flexible. Why can't you be flexible? Because the nature of your 1498 02:01:33,439 --> 02:01:40,119 system is such that it is a totalizing system. You can't have Roman Catholicism 1499 02:01:40,119 --> 02:01:43,960 being true and Vatican one being wrong. You can't have Roman Catholicism being true 1500 02:01:43,960 --> 02:01:46,600 and Vatican two being wrong. You see, it doesn't it doesn't work that 1501 02:01:46,680 --> 02:01:49,920 way. If Vatican one or Vatican two, or the papal teachings of the 1502 02:01:50,000 --> 02:01:54,840 last seventy years are wrong, or any other papal teachings, then the papal 1503 02:01:54,960 --> 02:02:03,920 system is wrong. It's that something, all right, what's next to anything? 1504 02:02:05,880 --> 02:02:12,239 No, I think that summarizes part four. So yeah, like even 1505 02:02:12,279 --> 02:02:15,600 goes further than than we would in terms of the authority of the church, 1506 02:02:15,920 --> 02:02:19,680 especially through the patriarch prom Constantinople, but it also mentioned other patriarchs such as 1507 02:02:19,760 --> 02:02:25,279 Jrusalem. Yeah. I don't know if you have anything else to say about 1508 02:02:25,279 --> 02:02:29,199 this part, David, Yeah, I don't really have much else to say. 1509 02:02:29,279 --> 02:02:31,560 And I think I kind of went over the conclusion to kind of give 1510 02:02:31,600 --> 02:02:34,680 an idea about this document. But we can go over the conclusion again. 1511 02:02:34,680 --> 02:02:40,319 And this is kind of the shifty usage of words that I see from Roman 1512 02:02:40,359 --> 02:02:45,239 Catholic documents quite regularly, because after making all of these admissions, they just 1513 02:02:45,359 --> 02:02:50,479 ended well, okay, or primacy, which really is supremacy. And yeah, 1514 02:02:50,800 --> 02:02:57,239 the kind of and it's characterization of the Orthodox system as a federation of 1515 02:02:57,279 --> 02:03:01,279 self sufficient churches is not really the adequate understanding. So it basically makes the 1516 02:03:01,319 --> 02:03:04,479 point that okay, if we made all of these admissions, but really the 1517 02:03:04,560 --> 02:03:10,239 Orthodox Church as it is has also these kinds of like lacks these certain things, 1518 02:03:10,279 --> 02:03:13,479 whereas we Orthodox people who say no, we don't. We have primacy 1519 02:03:13,560 --> 02:03:17,479 and we also have you know, unity and distinction, so to speak. 1520 02:03:17,560 --> 02:03:21,760 Right, so we have primacy and sinodality simultaneously. It's the Roman Catholics that 1521 02:03:23,039 --> 02:03:27,479 lacks synodality in the truest sense because they have supremacy, not merely just primacy. 1522 02:03:27,520 --> 02:03:31,079 And so I see this in communication between primacy supremacy by Roban Catholic apologies 1523 02:03:31,119 --> 02:03:34,159 and by the Roman Catholic Church itself, whereas the Ordsdog Church we actually do 1524 02:03:34,239 --> 02:03:38,640 have an understanding of primacy that is distinct from the Roman Catholic understanding. It 1525 02:03:38,640 --> 02:03:44,800 has its own fleshed out understanding of it. So what it's basically trying to 1526 02:03:44,840 --> 02:03:46,880 push, and this is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church today, 1527 02:03:47,239 --> 02:03:53,880 is that essentially they see the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church as two 1528 02:03:54,319 --> 02:03:57,600 you know, lungs of the same church. Right at the end of the 1529 02:03:57,680 --> 02:04:01,800 day, they're basically the same church. Are just having a fight between each 1530 02:04:01,800 --> 02:04:04,439 other. At the end of the day, it's a fight that somehow, 1531 02:04:04,479 --> 02:04:10,279 for some reason last four thousand years. And you know, if they fix 1532 02:04:10,479 --> 02:04:13,920 all of these minor different issues, they might just come back again in union 1533 02:04:14,039 --> 02:04:18,600 and just become one Church in a complete sense. Until then the two churches 1534 02:04:18,640 --> 02:04:23,439 are just one church that are just separate from each other in some sense. 1535 02:04:23,520 --> 02:04:27,560 Right, And in Roman Catholic ecclesiology in the modern day, as promulgated by 1536 02:04:27,680 --> 02:04:31,199 even various different so called traditional Roman Catholic apologists, is that the Orthodox Church 1537 02:04:31,680 --> 02:04:35,520 pretty much has everything. The Orthodox Church has Christ. But as Father Peter 1538 02:04:35,640 --> 02:04:40,119 Hughes kind of has a has a tile to one of his videos, if 1539 02:04:40,119 --> 02:04:42,960 we have Christ, why do we need the Pope? Right? And at 1540 02:04:43,000 --> 02:04:47,439 the end of the day, the Roman Catholic system is one of paople recognizing 1541 02:04:47,479 --> 02:04:51,239 the Pope as the leader of Christianity. And once you do that, you 1542 02:04:51,279 --> 02:04:54,439 can just believe in anything that you want, which is why you have all 1543 02:04:54,479 --> 02:04:59,239 of these Eastern Catholics who believe in Orthodox doctrines and Historian doctrines, Monoposyte doctrines 1544 02:04:59,600 --> 02:05:05,039 and the can somehow be part of the Roman Catholic Church because the theology doesn't 1545 02:05:05,119 --> 02:05:09,359 actually matter. Turns out, the only thing that matters is if you kiss 1546 02:05:09,399 --> 02:05:12,720 the papal feet, and that's just it. And this document, in spite 1547 02:05:12,720 --> 02:05:15,600 of all of the admissions that it makes, it is still it's still at 1548 02:05:15,600 --> 02:05:20,359 the end of the day showcases the intention of having, however, and increasing 1549 02:05:20,399 --> 02:05:24,880 its own alterity of the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the day. 1550 02:05:24,960 --> 02:05:28,399 Yeah, I mean the document admits that it says cynodality and primacy need to 1551 02:05:28,439 --> 02:05:32,279 be seen as quote, interrelated, complementary, and separable realities, and it's 1552 02:05:32,359 --> 02:05:38,319 quoting the Kyati document. Now, wait a minute, how many ecclesiologies are 1553 02:05:38,319 --> 02:05:43,520 there? Does the Church have rival ecclesiologies existing within it? No, there's 1554 02:05:43,560 --> 02:05:46,439 one ecclesiology. And if it's the ecclesiology handed down in the first, second, 1555 02:05:46,479 --> 02:05:49,279 third, four phist six seventh centuries, that's good enough. Why do 1556 02:05:49,359 --> 02:05:56,279 we need competing ecclesiologies within the church? Right? So, in other words, 1557 02:05:56,279 --> 02:05:59,279 this is again admitting that, look, okay, we can see all 1558 02:05:59,279 --> 02:06:02,520 the points that you have been saying, but let's still have the papacy because 1559 02:06:02,960 --> 02:06:05,960 look, both of these systems can cohere. Both of them kind of need 1560 02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:10,560 each other complimentary. No, they're not. Vatican one does not have a 1561 02:06:10,640 --> 02:06:15,840 complimentary ecclesiology. And by complimentary, I don't mean does Vatican one ever admit 1562 02:06:15,960 --> 02:06:19,000 that there are other bishops in the church and that they have authority in their 1563 02:06:19,039 --> 02:06:24,439 diocese. I know it says that that's not the point, because the point 1564 02:06:24,600 --> 02:06:32,279 is universal supremacy without reference to any other bishops is precisely a non Patristic ecclesiology. 1565 02:06:32,359 --> 02:06:40,399 It's a non first millennium ecclesiology. So these are two different systems Allah. 1566 02:06:40,439 --> 02:06:44,600 That's why there's two different churches Roman Orthodoxy. So the idea that they're 1567 02:06:44,640 --> 02:06:49,239 interrelated and complimentary is just like David said, and like Sneck said, really 1568 02:06:49,279 --> 02:06:54,399 just preparing the way for twenty twenty five. And oh look see we can 1569 02:06:54,439 --> 02:06:58,560 all work together and come up with some new tertium quid church which has all 1570 02:06:58,720 --> 02:07:02,880 all of this smushed together. Yeah, I mean, I mean, Karen, 1571 02:07:03,640 --> 02:07:08,600 That's why I'm interested in Cann thirty four of the Apostles is that we 1572 02:07:08,680 --> 02:07:15,319 already ass we already have an understanding of primacy that is not completely with or 1573 02:07:15,399 --> 02:07:18,239 understanding of sinidality. And I think that the point here is to say, 1574 02:07:18,279 --> 02:07:25,319 hey, you're stressing sinidality, we've been stressing primacy. Let's let's let's let's 1575 02:07:25,399 --> 02:07:28,439 mix, let's do a little bit of both. No, the Awthac position 1576 02:07:28,520 --> 02:07:31,359 would be that we have both. We have and and that's why we have been