1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind Over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,760 murders and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together with 6 00:00:24,839 --> 00:00:29,120 Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a researcher, 7 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,840 a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social media 8 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,880 manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner in 9 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:49,520 crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilly and 10 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,600 I'm Bill Thomas, and we're joined today by our podcast colleague, Jessica Bettencore 11 00:00:54,719 --> 00:00:58,560 here to talk to us about her podcast DNA I d Jess, thank you 12 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:03,479 for joining us today. Hi guys, thanks for having me. You sound 13 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:07,719 so excited to be here that joy just bubbles over. I'm excited to be 14 00:01:07,760 --> 00:01:11,519 here. We had so much fun at Crime Con we did. It was 15 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,359 wonderful to see you. We thought we'd pick up on some of the cool 16 00:01:14,359 --> 00:01:19,400 things we were talking about at Crime Con in this conversation today. Absolutely, 17 00:01:19,599 --> 00:01:23,480 and just for anybody who is new to your podcast or who hasn't had a 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,680 chance to listen to it yet, can you give us just a little bit 19 00:01:26,719 --> 00:01:32,879 of background about what your podcast is all about. I started, dnaid The 20 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:37,799 idea was hatched at the end of twenty twenty now, right because I was 21 00:01:37,920 --> 00:01:42,879 noticing in the papers all these cases being solved by what I call forensic genealogy. 22 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:45,760 Just because there's so many different names you can call it, it's evolved 23 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:49,120 into FIG, which is now the term that's being used for it a lot, 24 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:53,359 forensic investigative genetic genealogy FIG. I've always called it forensic genealogy, so 25 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:57,480 that's just what I'll call it. I noticed all these cases being solved, 26 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:00,280 and they were mainstream media covered them because it's all it's cutting edge stuff, 27 00:02:00,319 --> 00:02:05,280 right. Golden State Killer kicked this off, and now the cases are being 28 00:02:05,319 --> 00:02:08,599 solved rapid fire. But I wasn't satisfied with the level of detail I was 29 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:14,240 getting in the reporting because these are cold They had started out in any way 30 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,560 that for the first few years. This was all cold cases right decades ol. 31 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:21,240 I just needed more answers other than so and so was killed in nineteen 32 00:02:21,240 --> 00:02:24,520 seventy six and her murderer was revealed to be John Smith and next at six. 33 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,000 I kept looking around at my people I was working with at the time, 34 00:02:29,039 --> 00:02:32,159 who were Nick from Drue cron Garage and Mike Morford and saying, someone 35 00:02:32,159 --> 00:02:37,080 should do a podcast about this, because it seems like it's a real virgeoning 36 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:42,000 niche a special area that is really up and coming, is going places. 37 00:02:42,439 --> 00:02:46,400 Everyone's busy, and when you find yourself saying enough times someone should and then 38 00:02:46,479 --> 00:02:50,199 you just you'd have to say, Okay, I guess it's me. And 39 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,400 COVID happened. So I had some time, and I was trying to avoid 40 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:57,599 my kids being home all the time, so started looking into the cases myself. 41 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:02,319 The topic is specifically the podcast, specifically cold cases and or now non 42 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:07,840 cold cases solved by forensic genealogy and including that. Just this year we added 43 00:03:07,879 --> 00:03:15,080 a dough identification component. Let's back up for one step back. How did 44 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:20,560 you originally get into true crime podcasting? When you and I first met my 45 00:03:20,719 --> 00:03:23,159 recollection, which may not be correct, is that I think We met when 46 00:03:23,199 --> 00:03:28,919 you were working as a writer producer for True Crime Garage. So how did 47 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:32,120 you get into true crime podcasting? Do you start as a fan or how's 48 00:03:32,159 --> 00:03:37,159 it all come together. I was a consumer, A heavy consumer. The 49 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:40,039 short backstory is that by age seven, I read all fifty three Nancy Drew's 50 00:03:40,159 --> 00:03:46,719 Okay, I reached out into Trixie Belden, you name it, I read 51 00:03:46,759 --> 00:03:51,199 it, so I've always had an affinity for it. It never occurred to 52 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:53,639 me to actually go into the field myself, which I don't really know why. 53 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:58,400 It just didn't happen that way. When I found myself a stay at 54 00:03:58,439 --> 00:04:01,039 home mom with a legal background, and I was at the point that the 55 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,439 kids didn't need me anymore and I was looking for something to do. I 56 00:04:04,639 --> 00:04:10,520 started listening to We all listened to Cereal right, and then I branched out 57 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,000 into more and more podcasts came out, and I started listening to Crime Lines. 58 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,839 But it wasn't Crimelines back then. It was Charlie's former show, which 59 00:04:16,879 --> 00:04:20,040 she had with a female partner. I listened to them religiously, and I 60 00:04:20,120 --> 00:04:24,160 got on their website one day and they said, we're looking for research help, 61 00:04:24,319 --> 00:04:27,759 and I had just finished a project where I was working as a such 62 00:04:27,759 --> 00:04:30,160 a typical gen X story, but I was working as a writer for a 63 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,879 website called quimby that helps law students prepare for the bar exam by doing little 64 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:41,600 tiny cartoon blurbs of cases because gen X doesn't actually read anything, sorry guys. 65 00:04:41,879 --> 00:04:45,879 So it was like, let's ceb Ferguson and I was doing the writing 66 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:49,199 for that and that project ended, so I was looking around and Charlie and 67 00:04:49,319 --> 00:04:53,959 her partner needed some help, so I started just doing some pro bono research 68 00:04:54,040 --> 00:04:56,920 for them, and then I said I can write too. I think I 69 00:04:57,079 --> 00:05:01,000 ended up writing four scripts for them, and Charlie scrambled to get me paid 70 00:05:01,079 --> 00:05:03,279 was as much as she could, and it wasn't much back then. Of 71 00:05:03,360 --> 00:05:09,279 course, one of the cases I covered for them, I asked permission, 72 00:05:09,319 --> 00:05:12,879 and I took what I had done and sent it to Nick at True Crime 73 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:16,439 Garage, which I listened to and asked. And it was one of those 74 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,959 things that it was like a huge script with like bullet pointed footnotes and because 75 00:05:20,959 --> 00:05:24,240 I can't help it, I'm a lawyer, that's the way I write. 76 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,720 See this C point A two seven below whatever, And I sent it to 77 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:30,920 him, and it was a case he had already covered. I didn't want 78 00:05:30,959 --> 00:05:33,199 him to have any conflict with using someone else's work product. He was already 79 00:05:33,199 --> 00:05:35,399 done with that case. I said, this is what I can do. 80 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:41,519 And I happened to catch him at the time that he was like the show 81 00:05:41,639 --> 00:05:45,360 was starting to take off. His show. He needed help. You can't 82 00:05:45,399 --> 00:05:47,600 do all that yourself. They put on two episodes a week on a separate 83 00:05:47,680 --> 00:05:50,639 case every week. That's as soon as they're done recording an episode, they 84 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:56,040 launched right into the next one. It's an incredibly fast turnover. I aligned 85 00:05:56,040 --> 00:06:00,199 with Nick and that was in February twenty eighteen, and through Nick, I 86 00:06:00,639 --> 00:06:02,639 met a lot of people. I met Mike Morford, and I met Bill 87 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:08,040 Thomas and here we are. And so you mentioned that you're a lawyer by 88 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:12,360 training. So did you practice law for a period of time before you got 89 00:06:12,439 --> 00:06:16,120 into writing and podcasting and all that good stuff. I sure did so. 90 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:21,399 I graduated from Georgetown Law School in ninety six. I'm sorry, I'm dating 91 00:06:21,399 --> 00:06:24,800 myself. People are going to figure out how old I really am. And 92 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,399 I landed my dream job at a firm that I really loved in DC, 93 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:30,680 which is where I grew up. Literally two weeks later I met my house, 94 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:33,279 which is that's the way it goes, right when you're not I was 95 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:36,199 not interested in looking at no relationship. I was busy. I was going 96 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:41,079 to be a lawyer, and sure enough we met. So I ended up. 97 00:06:41,319 --> 00:06:44,040 He could not move because of his job, but mine I worked. 98 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:46,439 I was a young associate for a law firm. I'm a down of desk, 99 00:06:46,639 --> 00:06:48,040 right, I could just ladder all over to a firm where he was 100 00:06:48,399 --> 00:06:51,480 did that, had to take a second bar exam, had taken Virginia, 101 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:56,720 had to take Rhode Island and moved up there. We got married, and 102 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,879 then I had to take another bar exam when we moved to again following his 103 00:07:00,000 --> 00:07:03,560 job around. So that was three bar exams. Not my favorite activity, 104 00:07:03,759 --> 00:07:06,279 but all in all, I practiced for six and a half years, and 105 00:07:06,439 --> 00:07:11,279 then it was about that time where you're like, they're making noises about are 106 00:07:11,279 --> 00:07:14,480 you going to try to make partner? And I'll be honest, I had 107 00:07:14,519 --> 00:07:17,360 no interest in doing that. I was practicing corporate law like mergers, acquisitions, 108 00:07:17,439 --> 00:07:21,959 securities. Not a ton of really happy, go lucky people in that 109 00:07:23,439 --> 00:07:28,519 realm. There weren't a lot of happy people that I worked with. My 110 00:07:29,959 --> 00:07:32,160 husband's job ladder of hit him again to Massachusetts. I was gonna have to 111 00:07:32,199 --> 00:07:36,000 take a fourth bar and I moved up there with a ten day old baby. 112 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:40,600 And then once you know it, we had three kids in four years, 113 00:07:40,800 --> 00:07:44,160 and I didn't have time to even think about the bar exam anymore. 114 00:07:44,279 --> 00:07:48,199 I ended up stopping my legal career and did the mommy thing for quite a 115 00:07:48,279 --> 00:07:53,199 few years. We moved again to Wisconsin. We moved back to Connecticut. 116 00:07:53,240 --> 00:07:57,199 Bill I've been I've lived in Connecticut three times so and now we're back in 117 00:07:57,240 --> 00:08:01,240 Massachusetts. We're done moving. I'm gonna be dragged out of here in a 118 00:08:01,439 --> 00:08:07,040 casket for sure, and hopefully not anytime soon. No, no time soon. 119 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:09,480 So it was the last move to Connecticut where I started to want to 120 00:08:09,519 --> 00:08:11,839 look for something to do, and as a stay at home mom with a 121 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:16,720 law degree, who I just missed the technology revolution. It's a little difficult, 122 00:08:16,839 --> 00:08:20,240 right because I can do research and write and all that great stuff. 123 00:08:20,319 --> 00:08:24,279 But by then they were hiring twenty two year old who are willing to work 124 00:08:24,399 --> 00:08:26,319 around the clock and seven days a week. I almost past that point in 125 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:31,319 my life. That's where I happen to get into podcasting. Do you feel 126 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:35,360 like that legal background has helped you in all of the podcasting work that you're 127 00:08:35,399 --> 00:08:41,240 doing, especially and maybe understanding the legal ramifications of cases. Absolutely one. 128 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:43,919 Yeah, it doesn't matter that I was a corporate lawyer. I know how 129 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,000 to contact the clerk's office and get the documents I'm looking for. I know 130 00:08:48,039 --> 00:08:50,480 how to submit Foyer requests to till I'm blue in the face, and believe 131 00:08:50,519 --> 00:08:52,080 me, they all hate me because I submit lots of them. I know 132 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:56,919 how to find the records i'm looking for. I can pretty much find anything 133 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,320 out, and I will. The researching skills have been absolutely paramount for me 134 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,159 with this podcast because it's so fact based, and I really take pride in 135 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:07,360 making sure that I get the facts correct, which means that I need to 136 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,000 see them on the paper, which again dating myself, but sometimes on the 137 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:15,279 screen, but on paper, laying it all out. There's a stack behind 138 00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,600 me. You can't see it, but it's eight inches thick of documents I 139 00:09:18,679 --> 00:09:22,519 got from Wisconsin like a couple of weeks ago, and it's the case file. 140 00:09:22,879 --> 00:09:24,600 It took them two years to get it to me. That kind of 141 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,279 thing. I can look through that in a day and a half. I'm 142 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,759 a fast reader. I'm quick, and I think that's all just my law 143 00:09:31,840 --> 00:09:35,320 background coming to the forefront to help. So yes, very useful. It 144 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:39,720 might take you two years to get the file, but once you finally have 145 00:09:39,919 --> 00:09:41,919 the content, you're able to take it all in, absorb it, and 146 00:09:43,000 --> 00:09:45,960 then you've got to put that out in a way that the rest of us 147 00:09:45,960 --> 00:09:48,919 who were civilians can understand. And that's been a challenge. I think that's 148 00:09:48,960 --> 00:09:52,759 one of the strengths of the podcast though. And I just listened to another 149 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:56,440 episode this afternoon, and you really do tell the story in a way that 150 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:01,200 I think most of us can grasp, those that aren't lawyers and aren't scientists. 151 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:05,120 Yeah, I do try to stay away from too much legal ease, 152 00:10:05,200 --> 00:10:07,279 right or sometimes if I quote from a core document, I'll say okay in 153 00:10:07,399 --> 00:10:13,200 English, that means because literally lawyers are taught to write in the most convoluted 154 00:10:13,639 --> 00:10:16,399 manner possible, but it's like they can't figure out conciseness, but they want 155 00:10:16,440 --> 00:10:20,279 to be very specific about what they're saying. So that's how it all works. 156 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:22,519 And what's been interesting about that bill in terms of trying to make it 157 00:10:22,639 --> 00:10:28,120 understandable is the science component to the show True Confession. The last time I 158 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,639 took science was high school biology. I was an English major. I'm a 159 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:35,279 lawyer. I science is not my jam, So of course I have a 160 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,279 podcast about DNA. Like, how does that make any sense? I don't 161 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:43,519 know. But that's why I think trying to understand the material myself has helped 162 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,919 me explain it in a way that is easier for everyone else to understand as 163 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,279 well. Sometimes you're talking to somebody who's an expert in the field and they're 164 00:10:50,360 --> 00:10:54,840 shooting off terms and no one can really grasp it if they're not in that 165 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:58,919 exact field. So hopefully I made it so that everyone can understand it. 166 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:03,759 We chatting just before we went on the air. The principle one of the 167 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,879 many differences between your podcast and ours is but you are a scripted podcast. 168 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,679 How long does it take you to get a script done for a podcast episode 169 00:11:11,759 --> 00:11:16,000 like start to finish? Are you super super quick about it or are you 170 00:11:16,159 --> 00:11:18,080 like me and you tinker and tinker? No, I tinker and tinker. 171 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:24,440 It's literally month. It's a process, right, So it's not just about 172 00:11:24,759 --> 00:11:26,720 the writing, which for me that's my favorite part is when I sit down, 173 00:11:26,759 --> 00:11:30,960 and I've got the case file here, and I've got newspapers dot com 174 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:33,960 articles from nineteen seventy six over here, which, by the way, the 175 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:37,720 reporting back then was just night and day, different from the stuff that's going 176 00:11:37,759 --> 00:11:41,720 on now, right, Yeah, actual facts, interviews with neighbors, witnesses. 177 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:46,080 I digress. But there's nothing that I like better than sitting down and 178 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,080 starting that writing. However, I always find when i'm writing it that I 179 00:11:50,159 --> 00:11:52,559 have more questions. There's the case file, like something's redacted, or it's 180 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:56,759 missing a page, or I don't understand why this guy did this here, 181 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:01,039 like why do the police follow this lead? Because the case files, some 182 00:12:01,159 --> 00:12:05,720 of the ones I'm getting, they're from the seventies and they are literally detectives 183 00:12:05,759 --> 00:12:07,480 writing things on napkins. I know that's a cliche, but I've actually seen 184 00:12:07,600 --> 00:12:11,559 that, so it's you gotta keeps it together. So the way it works 185 00:12:11,639 --> 00:12:16,200 is I put together my script, which is the sequence of the story, 186 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:20,480 and I use newspapers articles, I use the case file notes that I have, 187 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,840 and then I call the detective who closed the case, who is always 188 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,919 intimately familiar with the entire case file because they've had to be I have found 189 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,159 that to a man with one exception, to a man or a woman with 190 00:12:35,279 --> 00:12:39,320 one exception, they have been willing to talk to me. The reason is 191 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:46,320 because these cases are the agencies have prioritized these cases for decades. These cases 192 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,799 are like for some reason, this case was like the I hate the expression 193 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:54,360 pet case. But so many detectives put their all into it and then they 194 00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,480 retired and the next guy picked it up and they were all they didn't solve 195 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,360 it. I can't tell you how many times I've come across this case. 196 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:05,399 The detective had the victim's picture in his on his desk, and they really 197 00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:07,720 they it's a case that really means a lot to the department as a whole. 198 00:13:07,799 --> 00:13:11,320 So when they solve it, they're proud of it and they should be 199 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:16,600 right, and they want to talk about it because it's an absolute craft ton 200 00:13:16,639 --> 00:13:20,159 of hard work that paid off. Everyone loves a resolution, so the detectives, 201 00:13:20,480 --> 00:13:24,080 their input is really valuable, and that's my favorite part. Second favorite 202 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,360 part is talking to them and getting the insights, and they almost always tell 203 00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:31,159 me some juicy story off the record, which I love too. For the 204 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:37,919 most part, these investigators are they on active duty or sometimes they are retired. 205 00:13:37,240 --> 00:13:41,200 When they're talking to you, I would say, for the most part 206 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,720 their active duty, they retired. I have had plenty of interviews with retired 207 00:13:45,799 --> 00:13:50,120 detectives. But sometimes they're retired. They go off the grid, like they 208 00:13:50,159 --> 00:13:54,600 don't want to be found. They're done. They're off hunting somewhere or golfing. 209 00:13:54,879 --> 00:13:58,600 They usually it's active duty. And if it's if a detective retired and 210 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:01,919 I can't get him, then I'll talk to his lieutenant or something, or 211 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,279 the captain who oversaw the case being solved, and they're again, they're almost 212 00:14:05,279 --> 00:14:09,240 always willing to talk to me. I have had a couple exceptions, which 213 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:13,080 is strange in Florida, which is bizarre because Florida and the Sunshine laws there 214 00:14:13,159 --> 00:14:16,399 are like literally everything's inn open book. They'll send you. I've got crime 215 00:14:16,440 --> 00:14:20,200 scene photos that are undredacted, They'll send you everything. They often don't let 216 00:14:20,279 --> 00:14:24,480 me talk to the detective, so I have to submit questions to the detectives. 217 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:26,559 Just a strange dichotomy. I'm like, you, guys know that doesn't 218 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:30,799 really add up, but whatever. And then in a case I covered in 219 00:14:30,879 --> 00:14:33,159 Montana, those guys actually hung up on me. No, not interested in 220 00:14:33,279 --> 00:14:39,759 talking. Yeah, how do you choose the cases that you're covering. This 221 00:14:39,919 --> 00:14:43,799 is something Kristin and I were wondering because you've covered a lot of fascinating cases, 222 00:14:45,159 --> 00:14:48,759 but a lot of cases that we were less familiar with or not familiar 223 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:52,360 with at all. How do you choose the cases? How do they move 224 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,320 on to your radar? They come onto my radar because I have like alerts 225 00:14:56,360 --> 00:15:01,360 set all over the internet for any forensic genealogy or genetic genealogy. But like 226 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:05,320 I get emails every day all day about and I can look at it and 227 00:15:05,399 --> 00:15:07,919 say, no, I know that case already, or I'm not. This 228 00:15:09,039 --> 00:15:11,799 one doesn't fit the parameters. The main criteria for me is that I have 229 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:18,360 to have access to information. I've got probably six half scripts written or scripts 230 00:15:18,399 --> 00:15:22,159 started. I realized I can't get the case file. Therefore, for me, 231 00:15:22,519 --> 00:15:24,639 I can't I don't feel that I can really cover that case because I 232 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,080 don't know the real story. The agency won't talk to me, or the 233 00:15:28,159 --> 00:15:31,519 detective is retired, and I can't do it, so I abandon it and 234 00:15:31,639 --> 00:15:35,159 move on. I don't like to get to that point. Obviously, once 235 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,399 I've started writing, I want to plead it, but I usually evaluate the 236 00:15:37,480 --> 00:15:41,320 case and see where it took place, whether I've got any contact there, 237 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:48,000 whether what their sunshine laws are like, whether they'll they'll it seems like they'll 238 00:15:48,039 --> 00:15:50,720 work with me. How amenable the detective was to talking to the media is 239 00:15:50,759 --> 00:15:56,600 a good clue, right. How open the agency was California is a It's 240 00:15:56,679 --> 00:16:00,320 a problem because they lead the way by far in these cases. Absolutely hands 241 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:04,039 down the most number of forends of genealogy cases solved. But they will not 242 00:16:04,159 --> 00:16:07,080 hand out their records, just will not do it. That's where I have 243 00:16:07,159 --> 00:16:11,919 to go to the detectives and basically try to sweet talk them into talking to 244 00:16:11,000 --> 00:16:15,600 me and giving me all the information I'm looking for, or use court documents 245 00:16:15,639 --> 00:16:19,120 when applicable. Of everything that you've covered so far, do you have maybe 246 00:16:19,279 --> 00:16:23,279 like a case that has really stuck with you and one that you're particularly fond 247 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:27,200 of, or one that you're particularly interested in continuing to explore a lot of 248 00:16:27,279 --> 00:16:33,039 them, there's no continuing to explore them because they're resolved. And I do 249 00:16:33,159 --> 00:16:37,440 have quite a few cases that I feel like the episode really I put my 250 00:16:37,519 --> 00:16:40,320 all into it, and I really feel and I feel like that about most 251 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:41,840 of them, but some of them are just really they're special to me for 252 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:47,080 some reason. I'll give you one example, the Judy Nesbit case. I 253 00:16:47,159 --> 00:16:51,600 covered it in season two. She was a mother for getting ready for Thanksgiving 254 00:16:51,679 --> 00:16:56,559 with her family and she went to meet a customer who was interested in buying 255 00:16:56,639 --> 00:17:02,279 the family boat and her family found or shot and killed on the boat. 256 00:17:02,679 --> 00:17:06,359 And for some reason, that case I really just it really resonated with me. 257 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,920 I don't know if it's because I have kids or that age, and 258 00:17:08,559 --> 00:17:12,480 she was just a mom. She was a normal person and doing nothing wrong, 259 00:17:12,599 --> 00:17:17,839 no, not a risk of verse lifestyle. And the detective is also 260 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:21,519 a detective who worked that case is out of Newport Beach, California. Is 261 00:17:21,559 --> 00:17:25,079 one of my absolute favorite one of the people who you would just sit back 262 00:17:25,200 --> 00:17:29,480 and admire the level of dedication to his work and the pride he takes in 263 00:17:29,559 --> 00:17:33,599 the detail that he comes up with, and somebody I really enjoyed talking to. 264 00:17:33,839 --> 00:17:37,240 So that case is probably I usually send people to that one just as 265 00:17:37,279 --> 00:17:40,640 a starter, because it really is a case that and by the way, 266 00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:45,319 it is solved eventually by forensic genealogy. Turns out the police missed some stuff 267 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,559 there and probably would have been solved a long time ago, if they had 268 00:17:48,640 --> 00:17:51,759 done good police work, which is not something that I see a lot of 269 00:17:51,799 --> 00:17:55,519 these cases. Can you say not something you see a lot of you mean 270 00:17:55,640 --> 00:18:00,359 bad police work? Yeah, most of these cases. The amount of their 271 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:04,000 cold cases from the seventies eighties generally right, because this is the era before 272 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,480 DNA that if they you know, once you get into the nineties, if 273 00:18:07,480 --> 00:18:10,880 they can collect DNA the crime scene, go to codas use it as elimination 274 00:18:11,039 --> 00:18:15,559 purposes, that sort of takes away the element of their just chasing their tails, 275 00:18:15,799 --> 00:18:18,200 right, which is what happened in the seventies and eighties. Right, 276 00:18:18,279 --> 00:18:22,519 They literally have nothing but erology to work with the blood types, and it's 277 00:18:22,839 --> 00:18:26,039 almost useless. Most of the cases, I would say, the vast majority 278 00:18:26,559 --> 00:18:32,319 these cases. The reason they weren't solved is because before DNA they were unsolvable 279 00:18:32,559 --> 00:18:37,240 because there was no connection to the killer and the victim. This sounds like 280 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:41,240 the Colonial Park Ram murders, which start in nineteen eighty six and stretch to 281 00:18:41,359 --> 00:18:45,799 eighty nine. And as we've explained, we both just did lengthy interviews about 282 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:52,640 the case. These are pre DNA cases. You're always praying that they've managed 283 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:56,079 to hang on to some of the evidence so that we can apply twenty twenty 284 00:18:56,160 --> 00:19:02,640 three technology to case evidence from the seventies and eighties. Part of the thing 285 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:07,039 that's just almost impossible to wrap your brain around is that a large amount of 286 00:19:07,079 --> 00:19:11,319 that is luck. It just so happened that they retained. One of the 287 00:19:11,359 --> 00:19:14,640 cases I covered, it was a drop of semen on a boot because they 288 00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,839 had thrown away the swabs from the rape kit. They detected sperm on them. 289 00:19:18,839 --> 00:19:22,000 Okay, so she was raped and they'd throw them out because they didn't 290 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,640 know that they were going to be useful. How many cases did that happen 291 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:29,200 in? Right? And can those cases can't be solved anymore. So much 292 00:19:29,240 --> 00:19:32,920 of it is luck that there's like a tiny little bit left or now we 293 00:19:33,039 --> 00:19:36,400 have the impact right, which can get DNA off. Thing like clothing that 294 00:19:36,519 --> 00:19:38,799 we was never anticipated, but that clothing has to still be in evidence, 295 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:44,000 right. And I've talked to so many police agencies as well, where they're 296 00:19:44,039 --> 00:19:47,400 like, there was a flood in our property room or a fire, or 297 00:19:47,599 --> 00:19:51,240 we moved and all that stuff got lost, Yeah, thrown out. Yeah, 298 00:19:51,319 --> 00:19:55,279 it's been decades. But yet if you get lucky, and for example, 299 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,759 the clothing is still somewhere in a paper bag or a cardboard box or 300 00:19:59,799 --> 00:20:03,160 something thing you can get Jared Bradley and the MBAC folks in there. He'll 301 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,759 train your people and the next thing you know, you're extracting evidence you didn't 302 00:20:07,759 --> 00:20:11,079 even know existed exactly. And I know there's some federal grants that have been 303 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:15,960 handed out to some different agencies to start doing testing on a bunch of cases. 304 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:19,240 I know. I think it's a jurisdiction of Maryland, for Georgie's County 305 00:20:19,319 --> 00:20:23,039 has twenty five cases in the works that they're working on, and I know 306 00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:27,039 there's also some in Virginia. So there. I feel like behind the scenes 307 00:20:27,079 --> 00:20:30,319 there's like mad testing going on, you know what I mean, because now 308 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,640 it's the heyday of testing, because we could do things now with stuff that's 309 00:20:34,680 --> 00:20:37,960 been sitting there, abandoned forever, but thank god it's not thrown out and 310 00:20:38,039 --> 00:20:42,160 they could actually test it and see what we can get to provide answers to 311 00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:47,440 these families. Have you ever started working on a case and you're doing your 312 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:49,400 research, you're getting into it, and then someone asks you, hey, 313 00:20:49,519 --> 00:20:52,559 can you not cover this. We're in the middle of testing, we're doing 314 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,319 something. Have you ever, basically just been told please put the brakes on 315 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,480 for a little bit. No, because I won't cover a case, and 316 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:02,480 I publish to mention that in the criteria section. I won't cover a case 317 00:21:02,559 --> 00:21:07,680 until it's resolved. Now there are cases where they are resolved and I don't 318 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,640 cover them because they're the agency tells me they're looking at the guy for other 319 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:15,440 things and those are still in the works. But once the forensic genealogy is 320 00:21:15,599 --> 00:21:19,680 done and we've identified the suspect and he's dead or it's wound through the court 321 00:21:19,759 --> 00:21:22,480 system, I consider a fair game to cover it, right because I can 322 00:21:22,519 --> 00:21:26,599 get access to the materials if he's under if it's under appeal. Sometimes I 323 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,920 wait for that. No, that's my worst nightmare is actually to get that 324 00:21:30,079 --> 00:21:34,839 far and be told please don't cover that. I really I have back burner 325 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:37,279 things for a while. When the detective says, I can't talk to you 326 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,920 right now, but in a couple of months I will. But that's as 327 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,799 far as it's gotten. You're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right 328 00:21:45,920 --> 00:22:00,720 back after this word from our sponsors. We're back here at my murder. 329 00:22:02,799 --> 00:22:07,160 So do you have a whiteboard somewhere with all of these cases, or how 330 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,559 do you organize this stuff when you're moving forward on so many different potential cases 331 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:15,000 to cover? As my husband will tell you, I am a list person. 332 00:22:15,319 --> 00:22:19,160 Uh huh. I love lists. I have lists everywhere. So I 333 00:22:19,319 --> 00:22:25,400 have multiple legal pads with lists on them of cases to cover, and I'll 334 00:22:25,519 --> 00:22:30,400 have a no asterisk if I foil them, and I have a highlighter if 335 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,559 the guy's dead or if the case is in the legal process, I note 336 00:22:33,599 --> 00:22:38,079 it. I've got answers to your question bill lists upon lists, and by 337 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,480 the way, they're all actually written in henwriting. I don't use the computer 338 00:22:41,559 --> 00:22:45,400 for that. The next logical question I think was going to be do you 339 00:22:45,559 --> 00:22:52,000 have one of the corkboards with red string all over it? No? But 340 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:55,640 I do have multiple legal pads, and I'm one of those people who I 341 00:22:56,000 --> 00:22:59,359 process information by writing it. I don't know if there's different ways of that 342 00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,960 people process information. And I remember this guy in law school with me who 343 00:23:03,039 --> 00:23:04,599 would sit next to me in class and he would just sit there with his 344 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,400 arms crossed, didn't even bring up pen Okay, oh I hate that. 345 00:23:08,599 --> 00:23:12,720 I hate just sat there and was like brilliant, I'm like somehow osmosis to 346 00:23:12,759 --> 00:23:15,480 all the information into his brain. Okay, that is not the way I 347 00:23:15,599 --> 00:23:18,359 operate. I'm the person who raised their hand like, can you repeat that 348 00:23:18,519 --> 00:23:22,240 to the professor seventy times? Then I would take thing and digest them down 349 00:23:22,319 --> 00:23:26,000 into little blurbs, and then I would make an outline. And I have 350 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:30,079 a little tiny sheet of paper that's six by six with all my cases until 351 00:23:30,119 --> 00:23:33,000 the end of the year and what's happening on them. I like to just 352 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,359 dial it down to a little tiny bullet point thing. But yeah, no, 353 00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:40,759 it's all very old. I get you. Yeah, I laughed the 354 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:44,759 other day. Though you're clearly a visual learner, which I am too. 355 00:23:45,279 --> 00:23:48,799 Even though I love music and I like listening to the radio, I'm a 356 00:23:48,839 --> 00:23:52,240 big NPR fan, and I love an intelligent talk show, which is a 357 00:23:52,279 --> 00:23:55,039 little bit about what we're shooting for, a mind of our murder. I'm 358 00:23:55,079 --> 00:23:57,039 not saying we're a talk show, but I find if I really want to 359 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:02,200 grasp something, I need to see, even if it's just me. Kristen 360 00:24:02,279 --> 00:24:03,839 was teasing me the other day. She said, I've never seen anybody take 361 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:08,599 more notes than you, because I've got like pieces of paper and one after 362 00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:12,480 another, just writing things down. I'm doing it even here listening to your 363 00:24:12,519 --> 00:24:15,440 answers, which are yes, Sam, I was the person with the textbook 364 00:24:15,519 --> 00:24:18,480 in school would like highlighter, and then I would write in a little more 365 00:24:18,599 --> 00:24:22,960 and the next to the like this, just this quick synopsis of that paragraph, 366 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,160 because that's just the way I learned. So it's very paper intensive. 367 00:24:26,319 --> 00:24:30,079 I am killing many trees. I apologize for that, but I don't learn 368 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,960 as well. Just I can't just scan things on the computer and process it 369 00:24:34,039 --> 00:24:37,759 that way. I have to actually write things down. No, I'm with 370 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:42,519 you same way. It's interesting because more and more kids are moving away from 371 00:24:44,079 --> 00:24:45,559 I'm going to sit here and take notes. A lot of them will sit 372 00:24:45,599 --> 00:24:48,680 there and try to do it basmoss, and I'm like, I don't know 373 00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:51,400 how you guys do this. I'm giving you so much information. I don't 374 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,559 know how you're not writing this down right now. I know I'm one hundred 375 00:24:53,559 --> 00:24:57,200 percent with you on that. I want to take notes. It's some mus 376 00:24:57,880 --> 00:25:02,839 my jaw dropped a moment ago when you started to tell us about your fellow 377 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,400 law school. Didn't you just sit there with it absorbing. I can't do 378 00:25:07,559 --> 00:25:11,680 that. It's just stressful work for me. If I remember correctly, I 379 00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:15,240 think he graduated like super Culoudy or something. I mean, it's just more 380 00:25:15,279 --> 00:25:18,920 people like that. That's not me. I always have to be I never 381 00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,519 missed class, very prepared and always making sure I write everything down, get 382 00:25:22,559 --> 00:25:25,519 the notes from somebody else if God forbid I was sick. That's just the 383 00:25:25,640 --> 00:25:29,880 way I am. So to understand the science of it all, do you 384 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:34,359 have a go to book or text or do you have science reference books anywhere 385 00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,119 on your bookshelf? I know you've have bookshelves right above your head. Is 386 00:25:37,160 --> 00:25:41,480 there anything that you use is just reference so that if you need to take 387 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,640 a look at the science, it's right there available Or do you just go 388 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:47,240 to the world Wide Web for that? No? I do go to the 389 00:25:47,279 --> 00:25:51,160 world Wide Web quite a bit. I also, I've taken notes throughout as 390 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,799 I've gone. But I have my own little like Bible here now that I'm 391 00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:59,480 like notus twenty low side. Oh, I love that. Okay, So 392 00:26:00,279 --> 00:26:03,079 it's multiple pages as long as you can see, and it's got like the 393 00:26:03,240 --> 00:26:08,599 history of when forensic genealogy started, types of DNA. But I google things 394 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,240 like everyone else obviously. Now I don't need to look up the difference between 395 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,599 str and snips. That's all part of the regular language now for a show 396 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,720 like mine. But like I said, there's still plenty of stuff that I 397 00:26:22,799 --> 00:26:25,359 don't know that I have to look up. And again, I try not 398 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,519 to make it too complicated. Try I really try to simplify it so that 399 00:26:29,599 --> 00:26:32,920 everyone can understand it, which means I have to understand it myself. I 400 00:26:33,079 --> 00:26:37,200 was reading about your podcast today preparing for this discussion. A lot of people 401 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:41,279 love it, but then there are still people that say, I need more 402 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:48,319 facts, I need more science. I know you're trying to hit this at 403 00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:52,240 a level so that I like to refer to myself as a civilian that I 404 00:26:52,319 --> 00:26:55,279 can understand. I'm not a scientist. I'm more like you. I'm an 405 00:26:55,440 --> 00:27:00,519 English history sort of side of my brain. I couldn't run a DNA lab 406 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,240 to save my life, but I really admire the people that do, and 407 00:27:04,559 --> 00:27:10,759 every time I talk to these scientists, I just I'm so blown away. 408 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,680 Like you were saying a moment ago, Jess, there are times when I 409 00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,799 think to myself, I'm sorry, could you repeat that again? Because I'm 410 00:27:17,839 --> 00:27:22,359 not completely grasping the science of it. All to use Christians point. Yeah, 411 00:27:22,559 --> 00:27:23,960 I have found that. I really haven't found that so much. I've 412 00:27:25,319 --> 00:27:29,200 a lot of people who listen to my show are the lab workers. I've 413 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:30,240 found a lot of them to come up and said thank you so much, 414 00:27:30,279 --> 00:27:37,240 because no one ever talks about us, and that's true. They're the ones 415 00:27:37,279 --> 00:27:40,279 that are doing this day in and day out, and thank goodness for their 416 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:45,640 processes and their adherence to protocols and proper procedures, because that is what is 417 00:27:45,039 --> 00:27:49,359 making and breaking these cases the way they do things according by the book. 418 00:27:49,759 --> 00:27:53,319 No. I find the biggest complaint about my podcast is A that I talked 419 00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,240 too fast and b and I'm like, you can slow it down. I'm 420 00:27:56,279 --> 00:28:00,400 the listening to guys who just do the points whatever, but I don't is 421 00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:03,920 that. And the other thing is people want more, people want more episodes 422 00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:07,720 and I'm already doing is I'm doing as much as I can do and feeling 423 00:28:07,759 --> 00:28:11,000 like I'm putting out a product that I am proud of. And I don't 424 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,359 think people really realize, Quinte, how much work goes into each episode, 425 00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:18,039 Like I said, months, because my scripts for some of these cases are 426 00:28:18,079 --> 00:28:23,920 twenty five thousand words. Wow, way to a look. Yeah, my 427 00:28:25,039 --> 00:28:29,119 script for the Colonial Parkway for Nick was twenty six thousand words, and I 428 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:30,079 know for a fact when I sent him that, he was like, oh 429 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:38,200 shit, because that's just too much information. It's too much. But that's 430 00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:42,240 what generally happens, is that I write that much. In every case, 431 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:45,480 I just can't do I can't do it any more than I am at a 432 00:28:45,599 --> 00:28:49,000 certain point. You just have to decide, you know what. I am 433 00:28:49,119 --> 00:28:52,720 happy with the product I'm putting out, and listeners who have no idea about 434 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,880 what the process is, they're just going to have to take a seat and 435 00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:57,240 deal with it. You're gonna have to take several seats and deal with it. 436 00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:02,039 Yeah. And I also I don't use a research assistant. I don't 437 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,640 use anybody. The person going through newspapers, dot Com and ancestry and trying 438 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:08,559 to put together is meat. That's all meat. And I'm not tooting my 439 00:29:08,599 --> 00:29:11,519 own horn. I'm just saying I'm also a terrible delegator. I don't know 440 00:29:11,599 --> 00:29:15,519 that I would even be comfortable having somebody else do it for me, because 441 00:29:15,559 --> 00:29:18,279 I have to go through the information myself in order to process it. Here 442 00:29:18,319 --> 00:29:22,759 we are, yeah, yeah, we're testing out a potential research assistant, 443 00:29:22,799 --> 00:29:26,359 and I am having the hardest time telling people, Okay, this is what 444 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:30,039 we need. Can you get us this? It's I'm having such a hard 445 00:29:30,079 --> 00:29:34,920 time letting No. I don't kudos to you. I'm trying very hard because 446 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:37,880 we both need help. We have very busy, active lives, as to 447 00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,559 you, and this is a ton of work, and I don't think people 448 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,279 realize how much to your point, yeah, no, I really, in 449 00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,559 all seriousness, I would love to clone myself. If I could do that 450 00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:52,160 and then have my oneself doing all this work on this side and my other 451 00:29:52,279 --> 00:29:56,880 self dealing with my three kids and everything else, that would work out great. 452 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:00,319 Unfortunately if they haven't done that yet, but maybe meaning of the technology, 453 00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:06,759 so we'll see. Hey, they did it with a sheep, because 454 00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:10,000 they can. They can take into it. Yeah, one of these days. 455 00:30:10,759 --> 00:30:14,440 So what is your thinking regarding the future of I'm going to go ahead 456 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:18,119 and keep killing it investigative genetic genealogy. I hadn't heard FIG before. Yeh 457 00:30:18,359 --> 00:30:22,559 vegas taking over all the pocaters and everyone are calling it FIG. Yeah big 458 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,240 okay, So what is your thinking regarding the future of forensic genealogy? Invest 459 00:30:27,279 --> 00:30:30,680 give genetic genealogy. It's all the same thing. Is this the wave of 460 00:30:30,759 --> 00:30:36,000 the future, Yeah, it is. We are seeing the beginnings of a 461 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:41,559 pushback with states starting to create legislation to set some parameters for what is and 462 00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:47,759 isn't acceptable to the people of that state, the legislators. We've just got 463 00:30:47,799 --> 00:30:48,759 a law in Maryland. We've got a law in Utah, we got a 464 00:30:48,839 --> 00:30:52,000 law in Montana. I know they're working on one in California, various other 465 00:30:52,039 --> 00:30:56,559 places. I think Florida. In fact, i'd bet most states are going 466 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:00,119 to pass legislation addressing the issue because it's not going away. It is the 467 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:06,359 most efficient way to solve a case by a factor of a team. I've 468 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:08,599 heard so many detectives speak about this at various conferences I've been to. Now, 469 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:15,240 the number of man hours put into a forty year investigation, right, 470 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,400 just think about that, mind Bob, versus giving ccmore taking ten hours to 471 00:31:19,559 --> 00:31:23,359 solve it. It's not culpable, it's inefficient, it's a waste of resources 472 00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,279 not to use it, and there is starting to be a movement to use 473 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,680 it in cases that are not full cases to use it. Why does it 474 00:31:30,759 --> 00:31:33,079 have to be a last resort when it is the most efficient, quick way 475 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,920 to get a guy off the streets who might still be operating, by the 476 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:41,359 way. But I feel like I've been having this argument with the FBI in 477 00:31:41,519 --> 00:31:45,759 particular over the last five six years. It just there's been a tremendous amount 478 00:31:45,799 --> 00:31:49,559 of foot dragging. When I first heard about this, which is I guess 479 00:31:49,559 --> 00:31:53,200 it's about six years ago now, my first goal was I want to track 480 00:31:53,319 --> 00:31:57,079 these people down that I'm reading about in all these articles, and I want 481 00:31:57,079 --> 00:32:00,039 to introduce myself, and I want to ask them how this thing work, 482 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:06,039 and do you think this could work in the Colonial Parkway murders, for example? 483 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:10,039 These people who are all the ogs of the of the space were all 484 00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:15,559 incredibly generous with their time and explain this to me in a way that I 485 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:19,240 think I could understand. And I began to see that there was an opportunity. 486 00:32:19,359 --> 00:32:22,400 And it's not like I'm time sort of rocket scientist. I just realized 487 00:32:22,519 --> 00:32:25,960 if this worked in the bear Brook case, the Golden State killer case, 488 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:30,359 I could see how this could work for potentially tens of thousands of other cases. 489 00:32:30,839 --> 00:32:36,160 Here we are several years later, and they're solving and hundreds of cases 490 00:32:36,599 --> 00:32:38,240 seeking of the proof is in the pudding co worker. Here we are with 491 00:32:38,319 --> 00:32:43,279 the Idaho four, so not a cold case. They use forensic genealogy. 492 00:32:43,319 --> 00:32:45,599 Within months of that case. A lot of people are really interested in that 493 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:50,440 case. People are following it. There's a massive chain on redd out of 494 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,799 people who are our dedicated to everything that comes out of there because they are 495 00:32:54,039 --> 00:32:59,839 challenging the forensic genealogy in that case very publicly, because a lot of people 496 00:33:00,079 --> 00:33:02,039 don't understand it. This is the problem that I've been hearing about, is 497 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:06,480 that a lot of the judges don't even understand it. Some of the lawyers 498 00:33:06,519 --> 00:33:10,000 don't understand it. They're trying to figure out how to educate the powers that 499 00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:15,119 be about this process and still maintain the privacy and integrity of it while doing 500 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:20,160 so. So it's a coburger case. The defense lawyer has asked to see 501 00:33:20,559 --> 00:33:23,880 all the forensic genealogy materials, which the general consensus is that none of that 502 00:33:24,119 --> 00:33:29,200 has any business being in the courtroom. It's literally irrelevant whether there was a 503 00:33:29,319 --> 00:33:35,039 match to Aunt Dora in Kansas. No arrests happened without an str confirmation, 504 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:38,400 So it would be a little like saying I want to see every fingerprint in 505 00:33:38,519 --> 00:33:44,920 the APHIS fingerprint file. Actually, I'm infuriated by some of this stuff. 506 00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:51,519 I understand that a defense attorney's job is to zealously defend their client. Some 507 00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:55,160 of this is ludicrous. I feel like the defense, I think they're probably 508 00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:59,759 representing a guilty client and that can be a tough spot to be in. 509 00:33:59,799 --> 00:34:06,000 That would imagine. And yeah, I referred to it as smoking mirrors. 510 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,679 There, it's smoking mars. They're trying to throw whatever where you throw spaghetti 511 00:34:09,679 --> 00:34:13,320 at the wall to see af it'll stick. Whatever they can do to cause 512 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:17,719 chaos and mayhem and distract and take everyone's eye off the ball. That coburger. 513 00:34:19,039 --> 00:34:22,280 His DNA was on that knife sheet, and there is no explanation for 514 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:25,920 that other than he was in that room and stabbed those girls. Innocentil proven, 515 00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:30,320 guilty, find But there there was another case, and in fact, 516 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,119 I'm sure there's more that I have unaware of. A lot of this stuff 517 00:34:32,159 --> 00:34:36,800 goes on behind the scenes pre trial hearings. Aware this is all hashed out, 518 00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:40,519 and the defense demands the forensic genealogy information, and the state resists, 519 00:34:40,679 --> 00:34:44,800 and the judge says, let me hear your arguments, And in one of 520 00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:51,360 the cases, the defense actually demanded Para Bond's proprietary work product. Alan Graytock 521 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:53,360 had to get involved, and it went back and forth and back and forth, 522 00:34:53,519 --> 00:34:57,880 and guess what, at the trial, absolutely none of that came in 523 00:34:58,039 --> 00:35:02,000 because it doesn't matter. It is an investigative lead and the arrest has to 524 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,639 be based on tangible, scientific measurable DNA. So if Parabond or any of 525 00:35:07,679 --> 00:35:13,360 the labs come back with we think you should be looking at this individual or 526 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:16,639 this family group, none of this moves forward in terms of an arrest until 527 00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:22,360 there actually is a scientific match. All this is, and maybe TIP is 528 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:25,400 a bit of a maybe not the best fit, but it's the only one 529 00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,719 I can come up with at the moment, and it seems to be the 530 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,039 one more all you're using. All that says is you should take a look 531 00:35:31,079 --> 00:35:37,280 at this individual. It doesn't say he or she is guilty of murder. 532 00:35:37,519 --> 00:35:43,079 Far from it. There's still a ton of additional confirming work and solid investigative 533 00:35:43,079 --> 00:35:45,559 work that has to be done before you're moving towards an arrest. Some of 534 00:35:45,599 --> 00:35:50,400 the legislation we've seen come out now it requires, for example, that they 535 00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:55,039 do a code of search before they do forensic geology. Duh who was of 536 00:35:55,119 --> 00:35:58,920 course, that would be just the worst police work on the planet. If 537 00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,599 they didn't do that, then the requiring them to destroy the samples that they 538 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:07,000 take after they put them in the database. Fine, if the guy's in 539 00:36:07,079 --> 00:36:09,599 a scent, we can work. There's some stuff in the legislation that is 540 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:15,360 making sense, but a lot of them are requiring that there is no arrest 541 00:36:15,679 --> 00:36:19,400 on forends of genealogy alone. It's common sense, of course, there's not 542 00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,280 an arrest on forensic genealogy alone. You would still need to be able to 543 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,599 build a case even if you get the DNA match, like you need to 544 00:36:24,599 --> 00:36:28,159 be able to put the guy at the location. You need to be able 545 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:30,679 to show some kind of nexus with the victim. Otherwise your case isn't going 546 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,519 to hold up in court, no matter if there's DNA or not. Again, 547 00:36:34,559 --> 00:36:38,119 it's all growing pains for this burgeoning field that has been a complete game 548 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:43,559 changer and will continue to solve cases at a rapid rate. And I think 549 00:36:43,639 --> 00:36:47,079 cases that are not just cold but are the quickest, easiest way to solve 550 00:36:47,119 --> 00:36:52,559 them is through this methodology. Other than our case, which we would love 551 00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:57,199 to see FPD used in the coin of Parkway murders. Is there a case 552 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:01,400 that you're aware of that you would really like to see see FGG used just 553 00:37:01,519 --> 00:37:06,159 to see if they can close the books on it. There are so many 554 00:37:06,599 --> 00:37:07,840 unsold. I think I have a list in my phone, A list, 555 00:37:09,559 --> 00:37:15,079 another, a list. We hear you like lists, I do, so 556 00:37:15,199 --> 00:37:19,239 here's my list. So it used to be Delphi, right, and here 557 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,360 we are. I guess I'm because I'm in Massachusetts. I'm hertial to the 558 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:28,679 Molly Bush case where she was a lifeguard at a local pond and was literally 559 00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,159 dragged into the woods in her bathing suit and raped and killed. And her 560 00:37:31,199 --> 00:37:36,239 family's been fighting to get that case sallved for years and years. The Katie 561 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:39,159 Jenness case in Atlanta. Have you ever even heard of that case? No? 562 00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,119 I don't think this is shocking to me that people haven't heard of this 563 00:37:43,239 --> 00:37:47,360 case. It was a twenty twenty one case a woman who her romantic partner 564 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,960 and woman was at work that night, and this woman was a bartender, 565 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,280 and she finished work and went to walk their dog in a very public park 566 00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,480 in downtown Atlanta at night. There were video cameras showing her looking into the 567 00:38:00,519 --> 00:38:04,239 park, and like joggers and people around, she and the dog were both 568 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:09,320 found slaughtered. Oh I'm looking at it right now. Wow. Her autopsy 569 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:14,880 report, which Joseph Scott Morgan did for body bags in great detail, is 570 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:20,480 shocking. Someone took very much time to carve her up, including carving letters 571 00:38:20,559 --> 00:38:24,119 into her Torso, oh my god. And this is in a public park 572 00:38:24,559 --> 00:38:30,760 and it's unsolved that one. There has got to be because it's almost impossible 573 00:38:30,840 --> 00:38:35,480 that the guy didn't leave something behind and he killed the dog, which was 574 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,880 a pit bull. So that one is a strangely unknown case which I've been 575 00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:44,639 following. And then I really would like to know about Amy Mahalovic. You 576 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:50,239 know, Okay, I'm writing down this Katie Jenas case. This is very 577 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:54,719 interesting. There's so many your head kind of spins. It's it's hard with 578 00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,599 the you asked me because some of the cases I have on this list or 579 00:38:59,599 --> 00:39:01,719 which are like like my cases, I'd most like to see Russell and Shirley 580 00:39:01,800 --> 00:39:06,119 Durman. That's a high on my list, the Lake o'coney murders where he 581 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,119 was beheaded and his head was never found. Some of the missing people ones. 582 00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:14,000 That's harder because then you don't have the forensic genealogy aspect a lot of 583 00:39:14,039 --> 00:39:16,920 the time, right Brandon Maitland, were all hoping the DNA that they found 584 00:39:17,000 --> 00:39:21,840 on that necklace would turn out to be something, but it wasn't. Ryan 585 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,719 Shape, Where the hell is Brian Shafer and Jennifer Kessey? She is my 586 00:39:25,639 --> 00:39:29,400 again. I hate the term red pet case. Some people use red light 587 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,480 case. Jennifer Kessey is mine. I must know what happened to her in 588 00:39:32,599 --> 00:39:37,960 my lifetime, and her parents have set the absolute standard. They shouldn't have 589 00:39:37,079 --> 00:39:39,880 had to go to the links they did and actually sue to get the case 590 00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,239 files and get the case away from the police department in Orlando, but they 591 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:49,199 did. They are working her case now very hard, raising money on a 592 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,760 gofund need to do that. I really want to know what happened to her. 593 00:39:52,159 --> 00:39:59,039 There's so much more. Can listeners suggest a case for you to cover 594 00:39:59,320 --> 00:40:04,039 on DNA? I of course, Yeah, I've got suggestions flowing in my 595 00:40:04,159 --> 00:40:07,400 inbox. Yeah. So there's multiple ways they can get in touch with us. 596 00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:09,480 The Facebook page is very active. People message me all the time with 597 00:40:09,599 --> 00:40:15,079 links for cases, Instagram, Patreon, and then the regular the show website. 598 00:40:15,199 --> 00:40:19,679 We are happy to take suggestions. Again, the case does have to 599 00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:23,000 be resolved in order to allow me to cover it. And the other thing 600 00:40:23,079 --> 00:40:28,599 is I do get some suggestions for cases from other countries. The problem with 601 00:40:28,760 --> 00:40:31,559 those Canada has got a few of these cases. Now. The problem with 602 00:40:31,679 --> 00:40:36,679 those is obtaining the case materials. Because I'm not a citizen of those countries, 603 00:40:37,039 --> 00:40:40,039 their sunshine laws don't operate the same way for me. So you know, 604 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:44,559 there might be a time when I find somebody I can access to get 605 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,599 materials that I need, but generally my cases have to be US based. 606 00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:52,440 So then justs what's next for you other than continuing the process of trying to 607 00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,800 clone yourself? Are we going to see you at crime cut again? And 608 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,239 let's help. And by the ways, I did clone myself, I make 609 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:01,519 myself twenty years younger. I'm sure you can do that. I would hop 610 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,800 yeah, yeah, I'm waiting to hear about it to see if I'm invited 611 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:08,639 back to crime Con. I wouldn't presume that I would be. It was 612 00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:13,480 my first year there on podcast row. This year I had a ball. 613 00:41:13,639 --> 00:41:15,679 I felt like quite a few listeners came up and said that they had never 614 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:19,360 heard of crime Con until I talked about it on my show, which was 615 00:41:19,679 --> 00:41:24,280 surprising. I thought people absolutely. I thought it was for me, the 616 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:29,079 best crime con crowd ever. People seem to be there for really the right 617 00:41:29,199 --> 00:41:32,079 reasons. I like the gravitas that has been brought to it a little bit 618 00:41:32,159 --> 00:41:37,360 with Bill the program that you were invited to participate in. It's not quite 619 00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:42,599 I know some people were a little offended because it is a crowd event of 620 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,400 true crime consumers, but I didn't see the like blood spattered t shirts as 621 00:41:46,480 --> 00:41:51,159 much as we used to. It really is seems like everyone is there for 622 00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:52,760 the right reason. I really enjoyed it. I had a ball. I 623 00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:57,360 loved being near you guys on podcast row. I'm crossing my fingers that I 624 00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:00,519 get invited back. We very much want you to be the We want you 625 00:42:00,559 --> 00:42:02,239 to be our neighbor again, because that was a lot of fun. That 626 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:07,000 is going to do it for this episode of Mind Over Murdered. Jess, 627 00:42:07,079 --> 00:42:08,920 thank you so much for joining us. And if everybody wants to listen to 628 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:14,360 your podcast, what network can they find you on? We are on every 629 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:20,119 podcast platform and the show is produced by Abject Entertainment, which is Mike Morford's 630 00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,000 cast network. As an in house one. He and I also share Missing 631 00:42:23,039 --> 00:42:29,760 Persons, which is an interview based podcast about missing persons. And there's a 632 00:42:29,800 --> 00:42:32,000 bunch of other really good shows on there, but the show itself is available 633 00:42:32,159 --> 00:42:36,480 anywhere you find your podcasts. Thanks so much for joining us today, Jess. 634 00:42:36,519 --> 00:42:38,920 We appreciate your time. Thank you. That is going to do it 635 00:42:39,039 --> 00:42:43,480 for this episode of mind Over Murder. Thank you so much for listening. 636 00:42:44,119 --> 00:42:57,559 We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero 637 00:42:58,039 --> 00:43:02,519 and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. 638 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:08,000 Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLeod. 639 00:43:08,559 --> 00:43:14,480 Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can 640 00:43:14,559 --> 00:43:17,679 follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our 641 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:22,199 page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow 642 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:28,440 Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas five six. Thank you for listening to 643 00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,920 mind Over Murder.