1 00:00:01,120 --> 00:00:07,280 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,799 --> 00:00:12,080 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:16,039 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:20,280 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,359 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,679 --> 00:00:28,519 with Kristin Dilly. My name is Kristin Dilly. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,559 --> 00:00:32,479 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,520 --> 00:00:37,799 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,840 --> 00:00:44,759 in crime, Bill Thomas. A brief warning before we start this interview with 10 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:50,399 Ashley Spence. We speak plainly about sexual assault in this interview, and if 11 00:00:50,439 --> 00:00:55,439 you find yourself triggered by such conversation, you might want to be aware of 12 00:00:55,479 --> 00:01:00,119 that fact before the interview starts. Thanks as always for listening to Mind for 13 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:06,519 Murder. Welcome to Mine Ever Murder. I'm Kristin Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas, 14 00:01:07,079 --> 00:01:11,560 and we're joined today by victim's advocate and fellow Sun Devil Ashley Spence, 15 00:01:11,599 --> 00:01:15,200 here to talk to us about the DNA Justice Project. Ashley, thank you 16 00:01:15,239 --> 00:01:18,799 for joining us. Thank you both so much for having me. I'm so 17 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,879 grateful. You have to explain what a sun devil is, Ashley. You 18 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,480 want to do the honors, you can do it. So I'm a sun 19 00:01:26,519 --> 00:01:30,000 devil and a longhorn. I was born and raised in Austin, and three 20 00:01:30,079 --> 00:01:33,680 case my dad hears this, I need to really I'm really a longhorn first, 21 00:01:33,719 --> 00:01:38,879 okay, and then I'm also there's some dual loyalties there. I think 22 00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:47,519 we're very serious here in Texas. Absolutely, And I'm actually of the two 23 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,200 colleges that I went to, a SU is the only one that has a 24 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:56,239 mascot. My undergraduate college does not have a mascot. It is a women's 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:02:00,359 only college, and we just don't have a mascot. We're just the Hollins 26 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:04,959 University Sun devil is the only mascot I can play too. So I'm a 27 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:12,360 Sun devil. Bill looks absolutely just perturbed by that. So if one attends 28 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:16,199 Arizona State University, as you both did, you are a sun devil, 29 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:22,520 correct? And what does a sun devil look like really fierce little guy with 30 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,479 a pitchfork. Pitchfork is what it comes to mind. Yes, okay, 31 00:02:27,719 --> 00:02:31,520 pitchfork. If you went to the women's basketball team, would there be somebody 32 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:38,520 walking around with a Sun Devil? Yes, yes, pitchfork. Yeah, 33 00:02:38,520 --> 00:02:42,919 absolutely. I actually spent a lot of time going to the Sun Devil women's 34 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,280 basketball because the guy I was dating back then was a huge Sun Devil's women's 35 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:51,960 basketball fan, So I went to a ton of Sun Devil's basketball games. 36 00:02:52,039 --> 00:02:53,599 Yes, you are not wrong about any of what you just said. I 37 00:02:53,639 --> 00:02:57,199 thought for sure you were going to say you were dating the guy that wore 38 00:02:57,280 --> 00:03:01,240 the red face fuzzy hat with them pitch fork for Jane would have loved that. 39 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:05,599 Actually, I think he would have. I think he would have eaten 40 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:07,879 that up with a spoon. And Hi, Dave, I know you're listening 41 00:03:07,159 --> 00:03:12,840 the Sun Devils. Okay. See, I feel better now I have a 42 00:03:13,039 --> 00:03:16,879 clearer understanding of your shared history. You and Ashley are both sun Devils, 43 00:03:17,199 --> 00:03:23,080 yes we are, and longhorns. We can't forget before we get. Now 44 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,719 that we've gotten that out of the way, Ashley, tell us a little 45 00:03:25,759 --> 00:03:29,960 bit about yourself, please, and the amazing advocacy work that you're doing. 46 00:03:30,479 --> 00:03:34,039 Yes, thank you so much. My time at Arizona State was a little 47 00:03:34,039 --> 00:03:36,599 bit short lived. I was really excited to go there. I loved the 48 00:03:36,639 --> 00:03:39,120 school, and I was about to start my sophomore year at Arizona State. 49 00:03:39,159 --> 00:03:42,360 Actually, and what I'm about to say might be a little bit triggering. 50 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:45,599 I always just like to give that preface about sexual assault. But I think 51 00:03:45,599 --> 00:03:49,400 it's really important that we have these conversations. Well, I had gone there 52 00:03:49,439 --> 00:03:52,439 for my freshman year. I loved it, and I was about to start 53 00:03:52,479 --> 00:03:58,319 my sophomore year in two thousand and three. I went to college early just 54 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:00,000 to get to know my new roommate. I was really excited. We were 55 00:04:00,039 --> 00:04:02,919 going to our first apartment while we were out of the dorms, and I 56 00:04:02,919 --> 00:04:06,759 felt so cool and so we were really excited to get settled in. But 57 00:04:06,879 --> 00:04:12,159 we were in a really giant apartment complex. You know this too, Christen. 58 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,160 It's very college oriented. So I was there before school started and it 59 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:18,319 was pretty empty at the time, in this big, giant apartment complex, 60 00:04:18,399 --> 00:04:23,240 and they moved us into the very back corner, ground floor unit. I 61 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:28,319 will never forget it, building, k It's etched in my memory. This 62 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:30,920 was before school had started, and I had been there about a week. 63 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,360 I went to bed one night. I had a feeling that day. It 64 00:04:34,480 --> 00:04:38,800 was really strange. I had this feeling. I was on the phone with 65 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:42,160 my mom and it was a warm summer Arizona night, and I just remember 66 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:46,240 the sky was like pink and purple and started to get blue, and the 67 00:04:46,319 --> 00:04:48,399 sun was setting, and as I'm speaking to my mom on the phone, 68 00:04:48,439 --> 00:04:53,879 I just felt the sinking feeling in the pit of my gut. Now it 69 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,639 wasn't like I don't know if you'll know, like that anxious feeling where you 70 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,439 feel like it's in your chest right, you know what it sa. It 71 00:05:00,519 --> 00:05:04,560 wasn't that. It was like this piercing, grounded, dark inner knowing that 72 00:05:04,639 --> 00:05:09,079 something was really terribly wrong. But I had no idea what it was. 73 00:05:09,160 --> 00:05:11,560 And as the sun went down, I talked to my mom and I remember 74 00:05:11,639 --> 00:05:14,839 thinking, I don't want to get off the phone. I don't even want 75 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:15,399 to go. I was supposed to be meet up with my friends. I 76 00:05:15,399 --> 00:05:17,199 didn't know. I had no idea. I'm like, I'm going to get 77 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,160 it be in trouble for going out in college. I had no idea, 78 00:05:20,199 --> 00:05:24,319 but I knew something was wrong. I hang up the phone. I go 79 00:05:24,399 --> 00:05:27,959 out with my friends. We come back to my apartment and it started to 80 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:30,680 get late. We were all talking, and I remember I had told my 81 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:32,560 friends, like, why don't you just stay here? You can some of 82 00:05:32,639 --> 00:05:35,720 you can save in the bed. We have the couch, and my roommate 83 00:05:35,759 --> 00:05:41,000 went to sleep with her boyfriend, and eventually my friends left. They took 84 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,839 a cab and they went home, and I went to bed that night. 85 00:05:43,879 --> 00:05:46,279 As I for my whole life had been fortunate too, I felt like I 86 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:49,959 was safe in my own home. I'm very blessed in that I came from 87 00:05:50,120 --> 00:05:55,560 a safe environment. I always felt protected. I never, in a million 88 00:05:55,639 --> 00:06:00,279 years much probably like what you all have endured. Imagine that these horrific times, 89 00:06:00,360 --> 00:06:02,040 whatever happened to me, but they do, they can happen to anyone. 90 00:06:02,720 --> 00:06:05,399 I went to bed and in the middle of the night and intruder broke 91 00:06:05,399 --> 00:06:09,759 into my apartment. While I was asleep. He smothered my face with a 92 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:15,639 pillow and began to tear off my clothes. I remember just thinking, this 93 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:17,800 is a dream, those nightmares you have and you can shake yourself and wake 94 00:06:17,879 --> 00:06:19,720 up. And I kept being like, wake up, Ashley, wake up, 95 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,800 trying to shake myself, and I realized really quickly, oh my god, 96 00:06:23,879 --> 00:06:27,079 this is not a dream, this is real life, and I need 97 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,240 to fight. And in that moment, I began to try to fight and 98 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:32,120 yell and move my arms and legs with everything I had in me, and 99 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,199 I was nearly killed. The pillow was suffocating my face so tightly. I 100 00:06:36,279 --> 00:06:40,759 tried to move my face all around, and I was beaten so severely, 101 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:44,480 and I knew in that moment, I just thought, I have two choices. 102 00:06:45,079 --> 00:06:48,160 I continue to fight and I die right here, right now, or 103 00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:53,800 I have to let it happen to try to live. And I desperately wanted 104 00:06:53,879 --> 00:06:58,240 to live, so for hours throughout the night, I endured this torture in 105 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,680 every unimaginable way possible. The entire time, I could not see the face 106 00:07:00,759 --> 00:07:05,319 of the person that was committing these horrific crimes against me. I am so 107 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:11,839 fortunate because I am standing here today, I'm able to share my story. 108 00:07:11,879 --> 00:07:15,839 I survived it physically, but he got away and I never saw his face, 109 00:07:15,879 --> 00:07:17,439 And before he left, he said, do not remove the pillow from 110 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,720 your face until I'm gone, and do not tell anybody, because if you 111 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:26,480 do, I will be watching you and I will kill you. I was 112 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:28,959 trembling, but I thought, oh my god, I'm going to survive. 113 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:31,560 I might survive, and but I had to just use my senses. When 114 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,199 I felt like he was gone, I jumped out of bed. I slammed 115 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:38,040 the door shut, locked it. I put on clothes, and I desperately 116 00:07:38,079 --> 00:07:39,920 looked for my phone. I knew I went to bed with it, but 117 00:07:39,959 --> 00:07:42,480 it was gone. So I had to think quick. I had to get 118 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:45,000 out of that apartment. So I broke the window. I jumped out the 119 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:48,879 window and ran to my roommate's master patio door and I was just beating the 120 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:51,839 door down, and she opened the door, and I will never forget the 121 00:07:51,879 --> 00:07:56,360 look on her and her boyfriend's face. I'm standing there, covered in blood, 122 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:59,399 just screaming, I've been raped. Call nine when one I've been raped. 123 00:07:59,439 --> 00:08:05,240 And I was fortunate. I had a really good responding law enforcement officer, 124 00:08:05,279 --> 00:08:09,160 Williams, and I was pacing in the parking lot. I didn't want 125 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,319 to go inside, and when we met ies, he pulled up in the 126 00:08:13,360 --> 00:08:16,399 police car, and it felt like it was months. I don't know how 127 00:08:16,399 --> 00:08:18,920 long it was, but it felt like it had been a really long time 128 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:22,800 and locked eyes and I could just see him mouth the words, oh my 129 00:08:22,920 --> 00:08:26,079 god when he saw the state I was in. And I mean I worked 130 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:30,480 day and night with detectives. I had a rapekud examination done, I did 131 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:35,120 everything, but there were just no leads. What agency were you dealing with 132 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:39,519 at the time of the attack? Who was the responsible law enforcement agency? 133 00:08:39,080 --> 00:08:43,240 So I was in Tempee at the time of the attack. He was amazing 134 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,600 And I tell people this all the time. It is so important every single 135 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:54,799 victim needs to have that first initial response be someone that is either trauma and 136 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,559 for him trained, or that has that compassion. Because had it not been 137 00:08:58,639 --> 00:09:01,759 him, I would not have felt safe enough to go forward. I truly 138 00:09:01,759 --> 00:09:05,679 wouldn't have. I would have been scared to death. Because of him, 139 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:07,440 he opened up this safety for me to take the next step to have a 140 00:09:07,519 --> 00:09:11,960 rape kit examination done. Did you go to the hospital right away then to 141 00:09:13,039 --> 00:09:16,279 do your rape kit? Tell us a little bit more about how the rest 142 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:22,039 of the evening unfolds than once you've reported the sexual assault. Yeah, so 143 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:24,879 this was the morning. This was like morning daytime at that point, and 144 00:09:24,919 --> 00:09:30,399 I remember I had gone in back into the house when the police officer arrived 145 00:09:30,399 --> 00:09:33,399 and I saw in front of my roommate's doore was a barricade of stools and 146 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,679 pillows and all these items from my house that this guy had put in front 147 00:09:37,720 --> 00:09:39,960 of the roommate's doore because it opened outward, so he wanted to be able 148 00:09:41,000 --> 00:09:46,080 to have some notice if anyone was coming down. So I saw that. 149 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,840 I was pretty startled by that, and I just remember him saying, we 150 00:09:48,919 --> 00:09:50,360 have to act quick. He didn't really say these words to me, but 151 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:54,159 after the fact he knew that there was no eyesight evidence. I didn't see 152 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:58,759 him, so they needed to get any evidence possible, any DNA, anything 153 00:09:58,759 --> 00:10:03,120 that they could find. I knew nothing about rape kids. I didn't know 154 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,399 anything about it. I don't even know if see if I was around at 155 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:07,320 the time, Like, I didn't know anything about the process at all. 156 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,600 I remember just saying, he was like, we're going to take you in 157 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:15,799 a van, and we need to go and have evidence collected and get you 158 00:10:15,879 --> 00:10:18,360 checked out. And I remember I just said, oh, I have to 159 00:10:18,399 --> 00:10:20,279 shower first. I'm not going anywhere. I need to think an hour, 160 00:10:20,919 --> 00:10:26,440 I need to brush my teeth. I feel disgusting, like I was just 161 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:30,799 felt disgusting, and he just said, I'm so sorry you can't shower, 162 00:10:31,399 --> 00:10:35,720 you can't brush your teeth, that you're going to be safe. And again 163 00:10:35,799 --> 00:10:39,159 I trusted him. So I got in a van and I went to a 164 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:43,480 hospital and I was very fortunate once again I had a trained I didn't know 165 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:46,159 anything about saying a sexual SELT nurse examiner, and she was changed. Her 166 00:10:46,240 --> 00:10:50,080 name was Jennifer, and I can tell y'all, I don't remember the hours 167 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,240 of evidence collection, photographing. I don't remember that. I do remember, 168 00:10:54,279 --> 00:10:58,960 though, how she made me feel. And after an attack this traumatic, 169 00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:01,159 but any attack is tried, any sort of one. You can imagine having 170 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:05,720 to get undressed and to have evidence like taken off your body. It would 171 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:09,919 really just terrible. But for me the experience, she made me feel calm, 172 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:16,279 She made me feel supported, She was compassionate, like all these amazing 173 00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:20,320 I call them my angels because I know not everybody has had this experience, 174 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,639 but I want to share it because there is good out there, and I 175 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,840 think this should be the model, the level that we all achieve and strive 176 00:11:26,879 --> 00:11:28,840 for. And so she worked very hard in what we would find out down 177 00:11:28,879 --> 00:11:31,799 the road was that this guy was very good at what he did, as 178 00:11:31,919 --> 00:11:35,039 a lot of these very serial predators are I've heard you speak about this too, 179 00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:39,000 but maybe not book smart, but smart criminal smart. Okay, it's 180 00:11:39,039 --> 00:11:43,759 scary, it's different, but he's smart. So they actually she would end 181 00:11:43,799 --> 00:11:46,759 up getting the evidence, which was a tiny bit of saliva on my chest 182 00:11:46,799 --> 00:11:50,480 and this is graphic, but he was pretty good at protecting everything else and 183 00:11:50,519 --> 00:11:56,480 all the other evidence even really even through these violent attacks. So that was 184 00:11:56,480 --> 00:12:00,919 the small evidence that ended up being collected. But I didn't know much about 185 00:12:00,919 --> 00:12:03,960 it. But so what they do then is they take your kit and hopefully 186 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,559 if all goes right and if there's not backlogs, it gets tested, it 187 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:11,279 gets stored properly, it's not destroyed, it's taken care of very well. 188 00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,840 And luckily that happened to mine and it was entered though into Cotis and there 189 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:20,279 were no hits. The detectives working on my case were fantastic, and I 190 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:24,440 think they collected DNA from over fifty people that would actually give their DNA or 191 00:12:24,480 --> 00:12:26,759 they'd chase them down because you can get you can obtain DNA off a cup 192 00:12:26,879 --> 00:12:31,399 or whatever it is. But all these guys were actually giving up their DNA. 193 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:35,600 And at this point we ran out of people because school hadn't started yet. 194 00:12:37,279 --> 00:12:41,960 We took DNA from everybody, possibly every mail that I thought possibly could 195 00:12:41,960 --> 00:12:46,039 have been at school around They gave their DNA and there were no matches, 196 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,159 and I just I couldn't take it anymore. I can tell you all. 197 00:12:48,159 --> 00:12:52,320 The fear was so scary that I had thought, not only am I all 198 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:54,919 over the news. He told me he would be watching me. He said, 199 00:12:54,919 --> 00:12:56,159 if I told anyone, he's gonna kill me. And now there's no 200 00:12:56,279 --> 00:13:01,039 leads, Like I'm terrified. I lived in a state of perpetual fear. 201 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:03,919 And I tried to go to school and I sat in class and I had 202 00:13:03,960 --> 00:13:09,480 this horrific panic attack, and I just thought, is he sitting behind me 203 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,320 right now? Yeah? I was thinking the same thing, is this Could 204 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:15,440 he be in the same lecture hall with him? Like, I just lived 205 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:20,000 in the state of absolute terror, and I couldn't even do things like wash 206 00:13:20,080 --> 00:13:22,440 my face because it would mean I would shut my eyes. Now when I 207 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,639 look back on it, and as you all know, your story is just 208 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,679 it breaks my heart to lose a family member or sister, to lose someone 209 00:13:31,759 --> 00:13:35,480 to violence, It's so unfair and it breaks my heart and for me, 210 00:13:35,639 --> 00:13:37,360 I didn't even realize the impact it had on everyone that I went to school 211 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:41,720 with. How terrifying. We're nineteen, we're kids. In the end, 212 00:13:41,799 --> 00:13:46,679 Did you end up feeling like I have to step away from school, This 213 00:13:46,759 --> 00:13:50,480 isn't going to work for me, even though I'm just entering my sophomore year, 214 00:13:50,519 --> 00:13:54,559 which should be a really exciting time. Yes, I remember I was 215 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:56,960 in the sort of state of and this was before like PTSD was talked about. 216 00:13:58,039 --> 00:14:01,159 I didn't really know anything about, but I was in this. I 217 00:14:01,240 --> 00:14:03,120 think of it as like a trance or a day is just moving my going 218 00:14:03,159 --> 00:14:07,559 through emotion and trauma. We have all had different traumatic experiences, but it 219 00:14:07,600 --> 00:14:11,720 can infect the brain and the body, and our response is the same. 220 00:14:11,759 --> 00:14:13,919 So I think we can all say in our own ways, we've experienced some 221 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,320 sort of reaction like that to the things that have happened to us. I 222 00:14:18,399 --> 00:14:20,480 just felt like a daze and one foot, like just surviving. I was 223 00:14:20,519 --> 00:14:24,799 just surviving, and I dropped out of school, and I remember I had 224 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:28,120 to sit in the office and the person I was telling at the school was 225 00:14:28,159 --> 00:14:31,320 not very compassion I don't know if they were worried because it happened on it 226 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:33,840 was a campus. I don't know, but it was handled really bizarrely, 227 00:14:33,879 --> 00:14:37,960 I would say, But I just dropped out of school. I couldn't do 228 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,360 it anymore. I was all bruised up trying to go to school. Everyone's 229 00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:43,559 staring at me. I'm all over the news, and it just it's stripped 230 00:14:43,559 --> 00:14:46,440 away. I will never be the same. And I think I heard you 231 00:14:46,519 --> 00:14:50,559 Bill talk about this as well. It's you can go back to those places. 232 00:14:50,559 --> 00:14:54,320 And I was in it for a long time, a long like scary 233 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:56,919 which I'll touch. It changes you forever, and it doesn't mean that you're 234 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:01,639 broken per se, but you lose a part of yourself that you can ever 235 00:15:01,679 --> 00:15:05,279 get back. And I refer to this kind of because now it's two thousand 236 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:07,519 and three and I've had closure. I've been doing healing work a lot of 237 00:15:07,639 --> 00:15:13,240 I've tried every healing anything you can imagine. I've tried. But there are 238 00:15:13,279 --> 00:15:16,919 times when I think that it's a star, and then all of a sudden, 239 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:18,559 something will happen and then I feel like it's like a gaping, deep 240 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:22,039 wound that's bleeding. I don't know if that makes sense. But you feel 241 00:15:22,039 --> 00:15:24,600 like I've healed, and then all of a sudden, it's just ah, 242 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:28,240 it's there again. It's alive. It's painful, it's dark, it's hard, 243 00:15:28,360 --> 00:15:31,360 but we have to face it and choose to look for the good things 244 00:15:31,399 --> 00:15:35,399 in the light. And I dropped out of school and I picked Newport Beach, 245 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,080 California to live it. I moved there with my friend and it was 246 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,200 a random place I'd never thought about living. But I'm like, I'm going 247 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,519 to the ocean. I'm just going to be Ashley, no more victim. 248 00:15:45,639 --> 00:15:48,320 No one's gonna know. I'm not going to talk about it. It's gonna 249 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:52,440 be amazing. I'm gonna start fresh. And it's not that easy to restart. 250 00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:54,840 But so I moved to Newport Beach. I struggled. You know, 251 00:15:54,879 --> 00:15:58,799 on the outside, you might think I was okay, but my roommate knew 252 00:15:58,799 --> 00:16:02,279 the darkness and bless her, I mean, what she endured and how she 253 00:16:02,399 --> 00:16:06,279 stuck through me, she was an angel. I thought I was doing okay, 254 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,600 but I mean I was numbing out with massive amounts of alcohol, pills 255 00:16:10,759 --> 00:16:12,440 nipael during the day because I couldn't sleep. At night, I would hear 256 00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,960 like muffled screams of women that he was hurting. I knew he was out 257 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:19,360 there. Like that was the most awful thing for me was I could hear 258 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:22,440 how I was trying to scream in that pillow, but I would hear it 259 00:16:22,480 --> 00:16:26,879 on repeat in my head at night because I knew he was out there. 260 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:32,399 And we know these people do not stop. They don't stop. They don't 261 00:16:32,440 --> 00:16:33,840 wake up one day and say I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm 262 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,799 not going to violently rape and break into people's homes or kill people. I'm 263 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:41,960 just decided I'm not doing that. That doesn't happen, let's be real. 264 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:45,240 So that was terrifying for me. And I can remember not just one time, 265 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,399 but there were two times that I would peel my eyes open and it 266 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:51,639 was like I felt like I had been hit over the head with a brick. 267 00:16:51,759 --> 00:16:56,240 My eye is hazy, and I could see my cry my eye open 268 00:16:56,360 --> 00:16:59,399 with a pounding migraine, and I would see a hospital band on my wrist. 269 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:03,039 And I wouldn't remember not only not going in an ambulance from the bar 270 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:07,039 because I overdrank, I wouldn't remember being clear to go home, okay, 271 00:17:07,160 --> 00:17:11,359 Like it was absolutely terrifying, and I won't go into this whole story, 272 00:17:11,359 --> 00:17:12,799 but I ended up getting into yoga. My mom had done it, and 273 00:17:12,839 --> 00:17:15,720 my friend took me there and I started to get more clear. Like yoga 274 00:17:15,759 --> 00:17:19,440 gave me this clarity of healing and it was a pathway for me that really 275 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,759 worked. And I started to be able to feel my pain, to process 276 00:17:22,799 --> 00:17:26,680 it, to let go, and to know that some things I have to 277 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,079 surrender to. Sometimes the power is just surrendering and accepting that I can either 278 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:34,759 continue to self medicate and kill myself I should, or I can take this 279 00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:37,759 and put one foot in front of the other, get my head clear and 280 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:41,319 start my life. No more victim mentality, pick up the pieces. It 281 00:17:41,319 --> 00:17:45,319 got to that point and I said, I can't live like this anymore. 282 00:17:45,559 --> 00:17:48,359 So I got clear headed. I ended up going back to college. I 283 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,839 got a job, I graduated college. It was really awesome and that's a 284 00:17:51,839 --> 00:17:56,039 big deal. And I decided to move back to Austin eventually, and it 285 00:17:56,079 --> 00:18:00,039 was here in twenty ten. So seven years after my Attech, I get 286 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:03,680 a call from the detectives and there was a DNA match in my case. 287 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,680 Wow, after seven years, I endured such a wide range of emotion. 288 00:18:08,759 --> 00:18:14,319 I was shocked because I had to in order to get on with my life. 289 00:18:14,319 --> 00:18:17,519 I had decided, you know what, I just am't accepting that I 290 00:18:17,599 --> 00:18:19,599 might not ever have an answer to this, and so it was shocking. 291 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,839 The irony is I moved to Newport Beach, out of all the places in 292 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:27,200 the country, to escape this man. In reality, I moved to the 293 00:18:27,319 --> 00:18:30,960 very city that he lived, Newport Beach. Have you all been there to 294 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:34,519 Newport Beach? Yes, No, I haven't been. Okay, it's a 295 00:18:34,559 --> 00:18:38,920 tiny beach town. Tiny, Okay. So I lived on the Peninsula on 296 00:18:40,039 --> 00:18:42,759 fortieth Street. I know when they arrested him. Guess what he was on 297 00:18:42,839 --> 00:18:48,680 forty first Street, one block from where I live. Oh, is this 298 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:55,559 this is not him following you or anything like that. It's bizarre. No, 299 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,000 he actually told the court that I followed him there. I don't know. 300 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,400 He said that I saw him, that I went to like restaurant, 301 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:03,079 said he was in, that he saw me on the peninsula. There was 302 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,160 a time like in my jeep there were photographs from like a rooftop taken and 303 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,039 put in the front seat of my car, and I called the detective on 304 00:19:08,079 --> 00:19:11,400 my case, thinking I don't know if it's connected, I still will never 305 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,079 know, but whether or not, like he saw me out or he was 306 00:19:14,079 --> 00:19:18,160 just saying that it's just eerie. It's just one of those weird what I 307 00:19:18,200 --> 00:19:19,839 don't know. It doesn't make total sense, but there's a reason that it 308 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:23,119 was a blessing. He was caught in Newport Beach trying to break into a 309 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,160 home one block from where I lived all those years. He was tinkering with 310 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:30,960 the door. Three young women lived in this home. A police officer saw 311 00:19:30,039 --> 00:19:36,079 him, questioned him, then tried to arrest him. He resisted the officer's 312 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:40,599 arrest. In California, that's a felony offense. Thankfully, California was one 313 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:44,079 of just eighteen at the time. My home state of Texas, we just 314 00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:48,039 became the nineteenth state. I'm so proud to collect DNA upon all felony arrest 315 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:55,400 So the difference is fifty states. So all fifty collect upon conviction of a 316 00:19:55,440 --> 00:20:00,240 felony thirty one states. Virginia is included in this. Thirty one states collect 317 00:20:00,279 --> 00:20:07,599 for certain violent felony arrest and burglary. Of those, nineteen do all felony 318 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,480 arrests. California was one of the states at the time. Thankfully it was 319 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,160 in California that he was arrested. Because what they did was when they took 320 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:17,279 him down, they took his fingerprints, they took us photographs, they took 321 00:20:17,279 --> 00:20:21,119 a DNA cheek swap, so it's a minimally invasive cheek swab of saliva. 322 00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:23,759 They uplifted in dakotas our national database and it hit a match back to my 323 00:20:23,839 --> 00:20:30,039 case all those years before and others. My DNA evidence was strongest, so 324 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,720 they were going to trial with mine first. He was a violent serial predator. 325 00:20:34,799 --> 00:20:37,799 He had a wife and a son, and a shed behind his home 326 00:20:37,839 --> 00:20:42,920 full of women's underwear and ID cards like his trophies from all over the world. 327 00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:47,960 He would take odd job chainting. He went to the Olympics. The 328 00:20:48,079 --> 00:20:52,240 amount of people that he has harmed we will not ever know. And I 329 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:55,759 can tell you there is a reason why too, because the level of fear 330 00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:00,000 he instills in his victims is next level. I just that was my automatic 331 00:21:00,119 --> 00:21:03,039 response, go tell, like I can see many circumstances where people are not 332 00:21:03,079 --> 00:21:06,599 telling, or it takes the while, or they're not coming out. But 333 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,799 he had trophies of all these women in there, so they arrested him. 334 00:21:08,799 --> 00:21:12,920 He was extradited to Arizona. But as the lost hands in Arizona today, 335 00:21:14,319 --> 00:21:17,039 he would still be free to rape and harm other women because they wouldn't have 336 00:21:17,079 --> 00:21:22,000 taken his cheek swab there right, Anyways, I wait on trial for five 337 00:21:22,079 --> 00:21:25,799 years, so twenty ten to twenty fifteen. Wait, let's stop for a 338 00:21:25,799 --> 00:21:30,000 second. Why did you have to wait five years for a trial? Two 339 00:21:30,039 --> 00:21:33,799 big reasons. One, this guy was he's insane and he thought he wanted 340 00:21:33,799 --> 00:21:37,400 to represent himself. And so again, as we're saying, he might not 341 00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,519 have been the smartest businessman, but he was criminal smart, like he knew 342 00:21:40,559 --> 00:21:42,799 how to play the system. So he represented himself. But the really big 343 00:21:42,839 --> 00:21:45,920 reason, the most important one, is that there was a Supreme Court case 344 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:52,319 twenty thirteen. There is a case called Marilyn versus King. In this they 345 00:21:52,400 --> 00:21:57,680 found that taking your DNA cheek swab for a qualifying arrest is a reasonable and 346 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:02,920 just part of the book procedure, just like taking your fingerprints, just like 347 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,599 taking your photographs. So this was challenged that it was a violation of the 348 00:22:06,599 --> 00:22:08,039 Fourth Amendment. They found no, that it is not a violation of the 349 00:22:08,079 --> 00:22:11,519 Fourth Amendment for qualifying arrest. So because of that ruling, Thank goodness, 350 00:22:11,799 --> 00:22:15,839 we were able to go to trial. Had they found that not had that 351 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,680 ruling not gone that way, I would have never had disclosure. This man 352 00:22:18,839 --> 00:22:22,680 could have still been out there. Because of that, trial was postponed. 353 00:22:22,680 --> 00:22:25,640 But then we eventually we went and I remember, I'll never forget it. 354 00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,400 At this point, I had yoga studios in Austin, and I gave birth 355 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:32,440 to my son. All these big achievements for me that I never thought could 356 00:22:32,559 --> 00:22:36,720 be possible. Again when I had trouble getting pregnant with my son, and 357 00:22:37,039 --> 00:22:41,440 I remember the prosecutor called and he said, Ashley trial is happening May of 358 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:44,880 twenty fifteen, and there's no going back. We're going to trial. And 359 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,119 I just was on the phone, like, wait, in my business, 360 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:48,880 we're finally turning a profit. You know how hard that is. I'm not 361 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,240 crying on the steps anymore inviting homeless people to come take my yoga class for 362 00:22:52,319 --> 00:22:56,240 free, just to fill the room. This is a big deal. But 363 00:22:56,799 --> 00:22:59,839 I had a son and I said, he's eight months old, as too 364 00:22:59,880 --> 00:23:03,279 young. He can't be separated from me. I'm his mom. Deep down, 365 00:23:03,319 --> 00:23:06,319 I was just terrified, like this guy told me he would kill me. 366 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,119 And now I'm a mama and I have a child to protect if they 367 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,200 find him not guilty. It's just I never saw a space. I don't 368 00:23:11,240 --> 00:23:14,799 know this guy. He was a stalker and a stranger. I'd never seen 369 00:23:14,839 --> 00:23:17,519 him before. It really scared me. And he said, Ashley, if 370 00:23:17,519 --> 00:23:18,799 you don't show up, this is totally He was really kind about it, 371 00:23:18,839 --> 00:23:22,880 but he said very directly, the maximum this man can get his ten years. 372 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,519 And I said, I'm gonna have to think about it. I hung 373 00:23:25,599 --> 00:23:27,880 up the phone, went about my business, and I remember I got the 374 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,599 shocking news that I was pregnant, and just a complete and total shock. 375 00:23:32,799 --> 00:23:34,920 And so with my son, we didn't find out the sex, but with 376 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,240 this child, surprise or pregnant when I didn't think I could get pregnant on 377 00:23:38,279 --> 00:23:42,480 my own, and I was, and I'll never forget when I just got 378 00:23:42,480 --> 00:23:45,640 the letter and it just said you're having a baby girl, and I thought, 379 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:48,519 oh my gosh, Ashley, well because you're going back for her, 380 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,960 You're going back for everyone's daughter, sisters, friends like you were going to 381 00:23:53,039 --> 00:23:56,720 trial. So pregnant as can be with my daughter, I lied to Arizona. 382 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,000 When I face this man, and there was a lot of darkness, 383 00:24:00,039 --> 00:24:03,599 but I persevered through and there was a lot of light. The officer, 384 00:24:03,759 --> 00:24:08,279 the forensic nurse, the DNA analysts, they were able to prove purely through 385 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,759 DNA it was thirty eight trillion times more likely his DNA on me than anybody 386 00:24:12,799 --> 00:24:18,680 else's, Okay, thirty eight trillion. The real compelling evidence in court was 387 00:24:18,039 --> 00:24:22,880 by twenty ten they were able to do what is called ysdr analysis, and 388 00:24:22,039 --> 00:24:26,559 what they did was they extracted the X and the Y chromosome. When they 389 00:24:26,599 --> 00:24:30,200 did that, they retested the DNA and they found his DNA all over my 390 00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:34,880 body, everywhere. And guess what it aligned with every story that I told 391 00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:41,160 detectives and lawn immediately after the attack, which made for extremely compelling evidence and 392 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:45,599 quorus. So they found him guilty. We waited on sentencing for a year, 393 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,880 so this was May of twenty sixteen. At this point my daughter was 394 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,799 born. I fly back to Arizona for sentencing. I'll never forget, the 395 00:24:52,839 --> 00:24:57,000 prosecutor says Ashley. This man's family is here, and I just start sobbing 396 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:02,279 because it humanized him, and I'm like, no, like this is he's 397 00:25:02,319 --> 00:25:04,359 a monster. I don't want him to be human at all. It broke 398 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:07,880 my heart. And he said, they are here, but they're here in 399 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:11,480 support of you. And I said what, And he said, and they 400 00:25:11,519 --> 00:25:15,680 want to know if they can talk to you. And I just said, 401 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,480 okay, tears falling down my face, and oh, this one gets me. 402 00:25:18,519 --> 00:25:21,759 I don't cry a lot when I talk anymore, but this always makes 403 00:25:21,759 --> 00:25:25,240 me choke up because I'll never forget hugging his sister and his nieces and his 404 00:25:25,319 --> 00:25:27,680 family. And I was just sharing how sorry we were for one another, 405 00:25:27,799 --> 00:25:32,599 all crying in each other's arms. Powerful. And his sister stood up that 406 00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,359 day at sentencing, his own sister, and she looked the judge straight in 407 00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:37,880 the eye and said, she said, I grew up with this man as 408 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,319 a brother. I had to become a detective because I had to live with 409 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,920 him as my brother. Not only is what he did horrific to her, 410 00:25:45,000 --> 00:25:48,559 but we are certain that he has killed people. Do not ever let him 411 00:25:48,599 --> 00:25:52,680 see the light of day again. His own sister point, there was a 412 00:25:52,759 --> 00:25:56,160 man that kind of made me feel uncomfortable, that sat behind in trial, 413 00:25:56,279 --> 00:25:59,279 and so that you have this amazing victim advocate that holds the hand of a 414 00:25:59,279 --> 00:26:02,200 stranger on. I love her so much. I always think of helped me 415 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,880 rond that she really helped me that song. She was a little angel too. 416 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,079 And she went to ask him, she said, who are you? 417 00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,799 And he said, I grew up with this guy in high school and I 418 00:26:11,880 --> 00:26:14,680 drove all the way here from California to see him. Fry he is a 419 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,880 bad man. Oh wow. So he wasn't support either, and he had 420 00:26:18,920 --> 00:26:23,119 been in and out of trouble burglary voyeurism, never had his DNA collected, 421 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,839 but he's not getting caught for the homicides. For his sister says, she's 422 00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:30,319 certain that these murdered people. Okay, in my evidence it was the small 423 00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:34,039 amount of saliva that actually they got it off of. But they actually sentenced 424 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:41,160 him to one hundred and thirty seven point five years in prisons. You're listening 425 00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,720 to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this word from our sponsors. 426 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,920 We're back here at mindover Murder. I sat in the back of court 427 00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:03,920 and I just saw and I felt like this weight of justice, that piece 428 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,759 that I felt. I thought when I flew home and I ended up reconnecting 429 00:27:07,759 --> 00:27:10,559 with my forensic nurse, and I thought you know what, I can't live 430 00:27:10,559 --> 00:27:12,039 in silence. I never told anybody, my own brother, who was very 431 00:27:12,079 --> 00:27:15,920 close to me. He was so young at the time. We just said 432 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:18,799 that someone broke in and robbed my house. I'm going to start telling people, 433 00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:26,519 and all victims deserve justice, every single one, every single victim deserves 434 00:27:26,519 --> 00:27:30,039 closure. We can't stop it all from happening, but we need to do 435 00:27:30,079 --> 00:27:33,759 everything we can. And I was terrified when I realized that every state did 436 00:27:33,759 --> 00:27:38,720 not collect UNA upon felony arrest right fifty conviction. How many of these people 437 00:27:38,759 --> 00:27:42,160 are getting convicted of these felonies, they get it taken down to a misdemeanor, 438 00:27:42,279 --> 00:27:48,519 they flee. The most prolific serial rapist of young girls in Colorado was 439 00:27:48,559 --> 00:27:52,799 caught not through serial raping young girls. He was caught through a felony level 440 00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:59,160 forgery. Fellony level forgery. Okay, So we're not talking about swabbing DNA 441 00:27:59,279 --> 00:28:02,480 for a routine traffic stop. Okay, that's illegal, But we are saying, 442 00:28:02,519 --> 00:28:04,960 if you are arrested for a violent felony offense, we need to collect 443 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:10,119 your DNA. It's interesting because now I advocate for this with DNA Justice Project. 444 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:11,680 I formed it to not just you know, help with victim advocacy, 445 00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:15,960 but tried to change laws and I got inspired in twenty seventeen. Actually I 446 00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,160 was testifying in Texas, just on the side to try to get it to 447 00:28:19,200 --> 00:28:22,880 certain violent felonies. It didn't go. In twenty seventeen, twenty nineteen, 448 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,799 it got across and I met this woman named Jane Seppich. I don't know 449 00:28:26,799 --> 00:28:32,319 if you all are familiar with her or her daughter's story. So Jane's wonderful 450 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,400 and her daughter, Katie Seppich, was a twenty three year old grad student 451 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,480 in New Mexico in two thousand and three, so the same year of my 452 00:28:38,559 --> 00:28:42,519 attack. Her story did not end as well. She was walking home from 453 00:28:42,519 --> 00:28:45,200 a party. She had gotten in an argument with her boyfriend. She left 454 00:28:45,359 --> 00:28:49,759 and she was walking alone at night, and she ended up being very brutally 455 00:28:49,839 --> 00:28:55,200 raped, murdered. Her body was lit on fire, and she was dumped 456 00:28:55,200 --> 00:29:00,799 in a field. Oh my gosh, horrible she had and you've lived through 457 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:03,599 this the effect. She had siblings, you know, a sister, a 458 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:07,240 young sister I think she was nine at the time, and an older brother, 459 00:29:07,640 --> 00:29:11,440 and they did not know who did it. For a while, I 460 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,359 thought maybe it was a boyfriend because they had gotten in that argument. But 461 00:29:15,279 --> 00:29:19,079 I remember when Janne tells this story, she said, very directly to the 462 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,440 law enforcement officer, So, Katie, the stories that you hear of her 463 00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,839 and meeting her mother, when you know her, she's become like a second 464 00:29:25,839 --> 00:29:29,680 mom to me. Katie was a fighter. And the only evidence that they 465 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,079 had because her body was burned, was actually under her fingernails. She had 466 00:29:33,119 --> 00:29:37,920 fought for her life so hard that his skin was the DNA was under her 467 00:29:37,920 --> 00:29:41,319 fingernails, so they were able to collect that. And Janne told the detective, 468 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:45,279 this guy, he's repealed, he'll do it again. People like this, 469 00:29:45,400 --> 00:29:48,559 don't just stop. Like we're all like, we all know, and 470 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,880 when they arrest him for another felony, they'll just take his DNA and then 471 00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:53,519 we'll find the match. We're going to find this guy. And the detective 472 00:29:53,559 --> 00:29:57,279 just said, no, you actually you can't. That's illegal to take DNA 473 00:29:57,359 --> 00:30:00,640 upon felony arrest and explain to her, and she was she's felt gutted. 474 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:07,920 So three years later, her perpetrator was actually caught convicted of a felony, 475 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,160 and that is when they swapped him for DNA and they found that had they 476 00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:14,200 had the law, which is now called Katie's Law in Mexico. Jane is 477 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,359 a fierce warrior with her husband, Dave and kids, and they fought for 478 00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:19,519 this. Katie's all there. It saved many lives. But had they had 479 00:30:19,519 --> 00:30:23,720 that law, her family would have had justice two months after her murder instead 480 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:26,960 of three years. And you know the pain, and I can't imagine thirty 481 00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,039 plus years of waiting, but to not have that closure and to know that 482 00:30:30,079 --> 00:30:34,119 there are ways that are loopholes that we have today in our criminal justice system 483 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,880 and in the way that we can actually make this change like we can't. 484 00:30:38,119 --> 00:30:41,599 So she fought for that. She trained me and she since retired, so 485 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:47,279 she entrusted me to step into her big you know, the big wings of 486 00:30:47,319 --> 00:30:49,160 her. But I do. I carry Katie's memory and I won't be carrying 487 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,240 your sisters as well in this work because we can't give up hope. We 488 00:30:52,319 --> 00:30:56,680 have the tools, we have these DNA databases that are incredible. Cotus is 489 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,240 incredible. My greatest challenge is trying to convince legis on why we need to 490 00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:03,279 do this. But I'm like, why don't we all need to be doing 491 00:31:03,279 --> 00:31:06,720 this? It's crazy to me it's absolutely crazy. It makes no sense. 492 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,119 I get it though, because people say, if you collect my DNA before 493 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:14,519 I'm convicted, that's a violation of my civil liberties. I hear that a 494 00:31:14,559 --> 00:31:17,920 lot, and here's why it's not. And I love when people come with 495 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:21,759 these challenges because I've really studied. I was no forensic expert before this. 496 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:23,759 I don't if I was a younger girl that had a business. I mean 497 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,839 I ran astud, I had some, but not this come on. But 498 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:33,599 I just began to get fascinated with the database and learn why and study the 499 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:34,920 ins and outs of it. And COTIS, So if you don't mind me 500 00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,319 going into this really quick, it's it's been around since nineteen ninety eight. 501 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:45,160 It leaked the local, state, and national DNA databases. Since nineteen ninety 502 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,519 eight, we have never had a breach into the database. Okay, now, 503 00:31:48,559 --> 00:31:52,039 even if someone were to break into the database, all they would find 504 00:31:52,039 --> 00:31:56,960 our numbers. So people think that cotis is like twenty three and meters ancestry 505 00:31:56,000 --> 00:32:00,240 dot com and forensic geology is doing incredible things to solve crimes. It's amazing, 506 00:32:00,599 --> 00:32:04,480 But that is not what this is. And I think this is important 507 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,799 to talk to and what codis is that is not it at all. So 508 00:32:07,839 --> 00:32:14,359 what goes into CODIS is not your whole dnago made up of three billion markers. 509 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,680 So markers are two sets of numbers. Okay, so three billion of 510 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:21,240 those. That's all of our information. It wouldn't say in CODIS if I 511 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,920 were to get arrested for phony, wouldn't say that I am Lebanese, that 512 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:27,400 I have brown hair, if I'm predisposed to any genetic diseases. It wouldn't 513 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,359 say my siblings unless you have familial CODIS laws in place that allow that. 514 00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:34,359 But that's not even what we're talking about. It wouldn't say even a name. 515 00:32:34,839 --> 00:32:37,839 So the only thing it has it's an auto generated specimen ID number that 516 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:43,359 is given by the lab. So these numbers are so precise that there's twenty 517 00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:45,960 to twenty four depending on the state. But it doesn't say any coding information. 518 00:32:46,039 --> 00:32:49,880 The only thing you could tell, if you knew how to read it, 519 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,759 would be male or female. That's it. Okay. Now the second 520 00:32:53,759 --> 00:32:57,880 part, you guys still with me? Yeah? Oh absolutely, yeah, 521 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,519 yeah, keep going so much. I love this stuff, so you just 522 00:33:00,519 --> 00:33:02,039 stop me whenever. But okay, so the second part is where are the 523 00:33:02,119 --> 00:33:06,519 names stored then, okay, So if there is an actual match into the 524 00:33:06,599 --> 00:33:10,640 database of those numbers, the names are stored actually in an offline computer at 525 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:15,680 the state lab. So these are state the state owns. Holy what goes 526 00:33:15,720 --> 00:33:21,319 into codis in the database. Okay, that's important too. So what happens 527 00:33:21,319 --> 00:33:23,200 then, is there's a match, the name is kept in this offline computer, 528 00:33:23,759 --> 00:33:27,599 they reaffirm, they retest. Okay, that is a match. So 529 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,440 the person that owns this computer, there's only a limited number of people that 530 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:34,880 have access to it. There are heavy fines of upwards to one hundreds some 531 00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:37,559 states two hundred and fifty thousand dollars if you violate this and jail time if 532 00:33:37,559 --> 00:33:42,279 you violate the privacy. They can release the name to the detectives working the 533 00:33:42,319 --> 00:33:46,880 case. They can only use this DNA match is an investigative lead, so 534 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:51,279 they have to build their own case. They have to get a search warrant 535 00:33:51,279 --> 00:33:53,839 for the arrest. For the second swab of DNA, they re swab, 536 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:59,079 they put it into codis and that if that matches, that is the DNA 537 00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,960 that is in miss in court. So very protected and it's very accurate. 538 00:34:04,359 --> 00:34:07,920 Now, if you are found not guilty for whatever reason, you're not guilty. 539 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,079 It is a federal law and requirement. You have to be able to 540 00:34:10,119 --> 00:34:15,920 have your DNA completely expunged and destroyed from the database. So the Office of 541 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,360 the Inspector General does annual and random audits on the crime lab and again they 542 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:22,480 are heavy fines if it's violated. So I tell people, do you believe 543 00:34:22,480 --> 00:34:25,119 in fingerprinting? And some of them say no, And I just say, 544 00:34:25,119 --> 00:34:31,840 oh, I don't know what to tell you. But if you believe in 545 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:36,559 finger printing, then you should believe in this because it's even more accurate. 546 00:34:36,639 --> 00:34:40,320 And why are we not maximizing this Because not only can it provide justice to 547 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:45,199 families like yours that are desperately waiting and not giving up hope, it can 548 00:34:45,199 --> 00:34:50,239 prevent these crimes from happening to our children. It exonerates those that are wrongfully 549 00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:53,159 in our prison and it protects the civil liberties and the privacy of those that 550 00:34:53,199 --> 00:34:57,400 are arrested. Your DNA is not accessible by third parties. You can't look 551 00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,679 it up, you can't be prohibited from getting a job having your DNA in 552 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,400 the database. The only thing that's public is your arrest record, and that's 553 00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:07,239 going to be public, but your DNA it's not. Why is it that 554 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:14,519 there are so many violent offenders that just aren't in the CODA system. What 555 00:35:14,679 --> 00:35:19,000 is the problem here, because this sounds like a great system. What is 556 00:35:19,039 --> 00:35:22,400 going on that we're not having every violent offender put into codis? Please help 557 00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:28,599 us understand that really crucial question. There's many reasons unfortunately that I keep finding 558 00:35:28,599 --> 00:35:30,800 it learning more and more. But I like to look at these as opportunities 559 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,280 of growth, shed light so that we can work towards fixing them. For 560 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,360 one, the DNA collection laws, so states just aren't collecting unless it's a 561 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:44,079 conviction of a felony. That's not good. Honestly, we are missing the 562 00:35:44,119 --> 00:35:47,360 bulk of these people. Okay, we have answers that can be given today 563 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,199 if we start to collect for all felony arrests. That's why I think a 564 00:35:51,199 --> 00:35:53,079 good stepping stone is if your state's newer to it. But up north and 565 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:58,199 where y'all are, I'm really eager to get stuff going. I had I 566 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:00,039 have a billstone West Virginia, but it didn't go as well. In the 567 00:36:00,079 --> 00:36:04,119 House. The Senate side, I have Snator Olavario, who's amazing. He's 568 00:36:04,159 --> 00:36:07,199 resurrected it. He believes in it so much. He's such a fighter for 569 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:09,599 good and I'm so grateful to him no matter the outcome, because he's brought 570 00:36:09,599 --> 00:36:15,760 it back to life. Pennsylvania have incredible sponsors Kentucky, but up north we 571 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:17,159 don't have a lot of this. It's all I have a map, and 572 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:21,599 I have it color coordinated, dark blue for all felony arrest, light blue 573 00:36:21,599 --> 00:36:23,639 for violent felonies, and then white. And up north it's all white basically 574 00:36:23,679 --> 00:36:28,119 because you only do conviction and these criminals they don't stay their lane or their 575 00:36:28,199 --> 00:36:30,280 state. They are on the move, and so we need to do this. 576 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:35,639 We will solve so many crimes, so many So that's one area. 577 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,440 Another one is we have incredible technology at our fingertips as well as you all 578 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,639 know too. Whether it's there's different advancements with forensic genealogy. Again it's not. 579 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:45,159 I don't know as much about that, but I do know things. 580 00:36:45,159 --> 00:36:49,239 I had a bill in Arkansas, we did a working group. There's technology 581 00:36:49,239 --> 00:36:52,960 called rapid DNA technology. To give you some background, we have an issue. 582 00:36:53,079 --> 00:36:58,159 I was shocked to find out the Department of Justice estimates that we are 583 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:06,000 missing her state between forty to fifty thousand samples of lawfully oed DNA or uncollected 584 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,800 offender DNA. So what does this mean. It means as the last stands 585 00:37:08,119 --> 00:37:12,599 for conviction or for a violent filund arrest, or whatever your law is in 586 00:37:12,679 --> 00:37:17,960 your state, we're missing, on average per state forty to fifty thousand samples. 587 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,519 Process that these are not just samples. These are violent repeat offenders, 588 00:37:22,519 --> 00:37:25,559 and we could expose a lot of cases, but we have to be swabbing 589 00:37:25,559 --> 00:37:29,440 for the DNA. It's just like the rape kit backlog. It's amazing. 590 00:37:29,440 --> 00:37:32,239 There are all these organizations that have done great work, Joyful Heart Foundation rate 591 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:36,760 incredible things. But we can do all this work on clearing the backlog, 592 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:38,639 but if we're not utilizing the other side of the coin, the DNA database, 593 00:37:38,639 --> 00:37:42,360 we will not get the hits. So we have to enhance our DNA 594 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,760 database so with lawfully Oh why does this happen? There's a multitude of reasons. 595 00:37:46,119 --> 00:37:51,719 It's hard to pinpoint just one. One offender flees. Two, there's 596 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,400 unclear communication. They don't know that they're supposed to give their DNA. Three 597 00:37:54,519 --> 00:37:59,280 Sometimes people are in prison and they're supposed to give their DNA after their prison 598 00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,960 sentence. Okay, that makes sense to me. After so some people are 599 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:05,360 in there for twenty years and then you're just going to take their DNA. 600 00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:07,000 Also, what if they're innocent, But think of the other crimes that you 601 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,280 can close the other offenses if you're collecting the DNA aut front. So we're 602 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,960 also missing them in prison. Some people aren't trained there, so they don't 603 00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:20,679 know. There's miscommunication amongst agencies, and so these people are being missed in 604 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:24,719 the system. It breaks my heart and this is something that everyone should uncover. 605 00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,679 And Alaska did their numbers and they're small population wise, and they had 606 00:38:29,679 --> 00:38:34,400 twenty one thousand laslio DNA samples in Arkansas and I was there for the working 607 00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,840 group which I'm going to retouch on. They had forty two thousand samples that 608 00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,519 were missing. So the list goes on. This is a real issue and 609 00:38:40,679 --> 00:38:44,480 we can't point fingers, but we need to say why is this happening? 610 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:46,519 And we need to make some solutions. Okay, one of the solutions. 611 00:38:46,519 --> 00:38:50,760 It's just a tool too, but you have more updates and technology. There's 612 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:53,559 rapid DNA technology. Louisiana. I just got back from visiting there a few 613 00:38:53,599 --> 00:38:59,039 months ago, and we just launched this in Arkansas. So it's a technology. 614 00:38:59,079 --> 00:39:01,360 It looks like a print. Okay, it's a tiny size. If 615 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:06,079 you have the policy, which is to collect DNA upon arrest and booking, 616 00:39:06,119 --> 00:39:07,599 so you have to be able to collect DNA when you're booking someone. You 617 00:39:07,639 --> 00:39:10,440 can actually take a cheek swab when you take their fingerprints and their photographs, 618 00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:15,719 you upload it into the national database and it counts down within ninety minutes, 619 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,440 it can turn green and if they are linked to any of the most violent 620 00:39:19,719 --> 00:39:23,639 offenses unsolved in the disc nationwide, then we will know right away within twenty 621 00:39:23,679 --> 00:39:28,239 four hours. It can search all of CODIS right now, we know it 622 00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:30,880 can take weeks, months, sometimes years. You have the ability and again 623 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,280 these are just tools, right, but this could help with Laflo DNA because 624 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:37,559 they're not fleeing, and it can help make really good decisions on bail and 625 00:39:37,599 --> 00:39:42,320 bond and things of that nature. It can exonerate people really quickly, So 626 00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:47,320 there's that. There is also it's pretty disheartening to know that sometimes our CODIS 627 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,719 hits actually aren't followed up on. There's now a company that they have hit 628 00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:57,239 tracking systems in so sometimes and again, whether it's from the lab side or 629 00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,760 law enforcement, we're missing. There could be a ding, there's a a 630 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:05,480 linked A hit to codis like a violent homicide or sexual assault, and it 631 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,719 gets missed for whatever reason. And so I'm working on some legislation in a 632 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:14,440 few states to try to make an accountability process so that within five days of 633 00:40:14,679 --> 00:40:17,360 finding the hit, the lab has to inform and vice versa. Because things 634 00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:22,280 are just they're just so many loopholes, and we have great systems in place, 635 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:24,599 and we do have great people doing these jobs, and I've towarded some 636 00:40:24,679 --> 00:40:30,599 of the most fantastic labs in the country. But we have to keep evolving 637 00:40:30,679 --> 00:40:35,039 because this means that people will not have justice and they will sit when we 638 00:40:35,079 --> 00:40:37,320 can find solutions, we can find answers, we can find the truth. 639 00:40:38,039 --> 00:40:43,639 Do you think the CODAS system is irreparably broken? Is this too much damage 640 00:40:43,639 --> 00:40:49,079 to fix or is there a way to make this system workable to the extent 641 00:40:49,119 --> 00:40:52,920 that we can get justice for everybody who deserves it. I love CODAS because 642 00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:57,679 it's how I think my story is a way of how it can work really 643 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:00,920 well. Right, we know that there are loops, but codis in itself 644 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:07,000 is one of the most powerful tools for law enforcement today. It's how we 645 00:41:07,039 --> 00:41:10,000 are solving it. But the more we can enhance our DNA in the database, 646 00:41:10,039 --> 00:41:14,119 this is where the loophole is for me. We have to continue to 647 00:41:14,199 --> 00:41:16,920 enhance the DNA in the database in a just way. The more we continue 648 00:41:17,000 --> 00:41:20,400 to enhance the DNA in the database, the more hits we're gonna get. 649 00:41:20,599 --> 00:41:23,039 The right people will get the wrong people up the street will also save money. 650 00:41:23,079 --> 00:41:25,920 This cares like to legislators. They want to know why is this important? 651 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,000 Doctor Jennifer Doli I did a great study. She's on a lot of 652 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,840 them. She's fantastic. If anyone wants to study more on arresting legislation and 653 00:41:34,079 --> 00:41:37,800 the power of it, she's great. And she found that for every thirty 654 00:41:37,880 --> 00:41:40,760 so the swab samples of the kits that you put into CODIS, they can 655 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:45,559 cost between thirty five to fifty dollars, depending on the state. For every 656 00:41:45,599 --> 00:41:50,400 sample that's put into the CODIS, we prevent er point five to seven crimes. 657 00:41:50,679 --> 00:41:53,679 Because of that crime prevention, the taxpayer sees twenty seven thousand dollars in 658 00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:58,400 savings. I tell people, you save money, you save lives. Come 659 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,360 on, it's a way and you give justice to people. But the problem 660 00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:05,280 is not Cotis the problem. Cotis is fantastic in my opinion, But the 661 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,920 problem is we are not getting the DNA that we need in da Kotis. 662 00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:12,480 We're going to get more hits. The more we get it in there, 663 00:42:12,599 --> 00:42:15,119 the more hits we're going to get. And tell me Jennifer's last name again, 664 00:42:15,159 --> 00:42:22,039 the person that authored the study, doctor Jennifer Doliac dol Eac. She's 665 00:42:22,119 --> 00:42:27,559 fantastic. Do you know why the rules for courtis seem to vary from state 666 00:42:27,639 --> 00:42:31,039 to state? Why do we not have the same set of rules across all 667 00:42:31,119 --> 00:42:36,400 fifty states? That just seems like that would be a really good place to 668 00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:39,039 start for all of us, so that we're all on even footing. Let's 669 00:42:39,119 --> 00:42:44,400 all have the same rules for every single state. What's the deal on that. 670 00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:46,000 That's a great question. State law. You have to do it state, 671 00:42:46,039 --> 00:42:51,320 but in UK they do it UK it's federal and federally. If you're 672 00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,800 arrested for any crime at the federal level like that, your DNA is taken, 673 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,119 so it it's federally you are you do that. You have to do 674 00:42:57,159 --> 00:43:00,599 this, but state to state, I wish I had the end. I 675 00:43:00,599 --> 00:43:01,639 think a lot of the constituents, okay, and maybe even a lot of 676 00:43:01,639 --> 00:43:05,880 listeners think, don't we already do this? Don't we already collect in it? 677 00:43:05,880 --> 00:43:07,239 If you're arrested, don't you do that? But no, we don't. 678 00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:12,360 It's a tough battle. It really is still to see the map and 679 00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,360 to see so many states fighting to not have DNA, which I think is 680 00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:20,320 a totally protected It's just it's a great system. It can help eliminate racial 681 00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:22,400 bias because we're not talking. If there's no coding information, it's not a 682 00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:27,360 photo way d I have a friend James Tillman, James Calvin Tillman, if 683 00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,159 you want to look him up and be inspired. But his story is horrible. 684 00:43:30,199 --> 00:43:32,800 We met at the California Department of Justice speaking on the power of DNA. 685 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,199 He was victimized in a way that I can't imagine. He was a 686 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,679 young boy. I think he was like eighteen or nineteen and his mom was 687 00:43:39,719 --> 00:43:44,199 making a mistake and there's a knock at the door and you hear him tell 688 00:43:44,199 --> 00:43:46,000 the story and it just breaks your heart. The steak is sizzling and they 689 00:43:46,039 --> 00:43:49,519 say, mister Tillman, come with us. You're arrested for the rape of 690 00:43:49,519 --> 00:43:52,519 this woman, and he says, Mom, hold my steake, I didn't 691 00:43:52,519 --> 00:43:59,280 do it. Eighteen years later, eighteen of his life. Actually, the 692 00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:01,320 man that committed the rape was imprisoned at one time with them and knew that 693 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,079 mister Tillman was serving time for this rape. And this guy did it, 694 00:44:06,159 --> 00:44:09,199 okay. So eighteen years he wrote a book on the power of conviction and 695 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,960 faith and forgiveness. I don't know how he did that, but the Connecticut 696 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:16,760 Innocent Project kept pushing test the DNA they hadn't tested it. Finally tested it 697 00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:21,599 and exonerated him. But after all that time, he was the very first 698 00:44:21,599 --> 00:44:25,400 person to be exonerated by DNA in the state of Connecticut. So this is 699 00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:29,000 what I'm saying. We have good systems in place, but we are not 700 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,880 utilizing them. There's so many loopholes we have to fix them. Even recently 701 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:38,079 in the Colonial Parkway murders. Our big break came because a Sexual Assault Kit 702 00:44:38,199 --> 00:44:46,039 Initiative grant was applied for by the Department of Forensic Science and the Virginia State 703 00:44:46,119 --> 00:44:51,800 Police, which is something we've been asking for for a number of years. 704 00:44:52,599 --> 00:44:58,559 They finally get the grant. They run the tests and they identify Alan Wade 705 00:44:58,599 --> 00:45:02,840 Wilmer Senior as the offender in one of the double homicides in the Colonial Parkway 706 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:07,800 murders. So Robin Edwards and David Nobling's killer is identified, and then at 707 00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:14,039 the same time, in checking other unsolved cases in the area, they discover 708 00:45:14,159 --> 00:45:19,639 that this man is also responsible for the nineteen eighty nine murder of Teresa Howell. 709 00:45:20,159 --> 00:45:24,679 So this is another situation where if we conduct DNA testing, we find 710 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:30,920 that we can identify offenders and hopefully more cases will be solved. This man's 711 00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:35,760 never going to prison. He died in twenty seventeen. But as Kristin and 712 00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,920 I have said many times on the podcast, getting answers is incredibly important when 713 00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:46,000 you've been waiting, in some cases more than thirty years for answers in these 714 00:45:46,119 --> 00:45:52,400 unsolved homicides, incredibly important. And I can't even imagine. I can't imagine 715 00:45:52,679 --> 00:45:58,079 just the pain of that. It's unimaginable. I'm so sorry. And we 716 00:45:58,159 --> 00:46:00,119 might not be able to stop every crimeer solve, but we can solve a 717 00:46:00,159 --> 00:46:05,159 lot of them by testing this evidence. We can the DNA is it's key, 718 00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,400 it's DNA is science, it's accurate, it's truth, and yes, 719 00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:12,440 you have to I had a great you have to have the whole investigation with 720 00:46:12,519 --> 00:46:16,360 it. But it's such a good, solid system we have to continue to 721 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:21,280 maximize it. We just do, we will be able to close a lot 722 00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:24,079 of these cases out. So a good example of this isn't with the arreste 723 00:46:24,119 --> 00:46:28,599 legislation. So Texas, my home state, we in twenty nineteen when it 724 00:46:28,639 --> 00:46:31,519 got across, it was pretty divisive, honestly hard. It was hard to 725 00:46:31,559 --> 00:46:34,960 get past, and I was still new, pretty new at the time to 726 00:46:35,039 --> 00:46:37,960 this. I still am in the scheme of things. But you learn quick 727 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:42,760 when you're thrown in the fire with legislators. Let me tell you about So 728 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,199 we got it across from twenty nineteen for certain violent felonies and burglary. So 729 00:46:47,360 --> 00:46:52,000 in the first year of that we closed over two hundred and thirty cases that 730 00:46:52,039 --> 00:46:55,320 were cold. Twenty twenty one, fast forward, over six hundred and forty 731 00:46:55,679 --> 00:47:02,079 cases cold cases closed through this. So we go back huge, So we 732 00:47:02,159 --> 00:47:06,880 go back. The proof is in the numbers. We're saving lives, We're 733 00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:10,400 closing cases. A lot. We solve violent homicides that were cold cases, 734 00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:15,559 sexual assaults of children. So you see that it's working. You have an 735 00:47:15,639 --> 00:47:19,760 uprund investment from the state that we're actually saving money because we're getting the right 736 00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,800 people, we're closing out the case. The time is the time that it 737 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,599 is put into these cases and what it costs. So we're doing that. 738 00:47:25,679 --> 00:47:30,679 Then we go back and I expected to have because it's traditionally a little bit 739 00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:32,519 more. I don't know why, it's more what do you say, has 740 00:47:32,519 --> 00:47:37,000 a little more drama behind it. People fight over it, the DNA legislation. 741 00:47:37,119 --> 00:47:40,519 It just does. So I was surprised and so grateful to see everyone 742 00:47:40,599 --> 00:47:45,119 voted it through. I didn't have anyone come to testify against it. We 743 00:47:45,119 --> 00:47:49,239 were actually were allocated fourteen million dollars in funding from Governor Abbott just to get 744 00:47:49,239 --> 00:47:52,400 this program launched because they saw that it works. So the proof is in 745 00:47:52,440 --> 00:47:55,119 the system. Texas was a state that cares tremendously. They still do with 746 00:47:55,159 --> 00:47:59,400 several liberties right, but this they realize this is not affecting at all. 747 00:47:59,519 --> 00:48:01,920 In fact, we are closing cases, we're saving money, we're saving lives. 748 00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:07,039 Like it's a win. I love to share that because it shows the 749 00:48:07,079 --> 00:48:09,800 proof it works. And that's why I tell states that I try to get 750 00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:14,559 this legislation pass start here. Then if anything start with certain violent felonies and 751 00:48:14,599 --> 00:48:15,880 burglars, we're still not going to get them, all right, because they're 752 00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:21,360 doing my guy resisting the officer, But you're going to start to get more 753 00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:22,880 and then people develop trust in the system. They see it. We're going 754 00:48:22,920 --> 00:48:25,840 to give justice to people that are waiting for it. It just it works 755 00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:30,440 ashually. This is amazing work that you're doing. And obviously you have a 756 00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:36,599 lot of passion behind this, which is so admirable. And I'm really in 757 00:48:36,639 --> 00:48:39,079 awe of you right now. What is next for you in terms of projects? 758 00:48:39,119 --> 00:48:43,719 What to the next couple of months and probably I'm imagining you're scheduled out 759 00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:47,159 the next couple of years looking like for you, I'm just riding the wave 760 00:48:47,280 --> 00:48:52,719 of higher power you could have never found. I could have never picked this 761 00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,400 out to be my life in the first place. But I'm going to keep 762 00:48:55,440 --> 00:49:00,960 fighting. It's been an emotional legislative session and that's why are so sweet, 763 00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,760 because you have to fight and lose. I lose a lot in this and 764 00:49:04,079 --> 00:49:06,280 it always breaks my heart a little bit, to be honest, and it's 765 00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:07,880 raw and it's real and it can be very lonely on the road, but 766 00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:13,760 I'm doing it. I hope one day that we get your sister's perpetrator. 767 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:15,480 That's going to be a life mission of mine too, because they're good people 768 00:49:15,519 --> 00:49:19,400 out there fighting, and so I'm going to keep up this fight wherever it 769 00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,000 takes me. Hopefully we'll have some success with some states up north getting some 770 00:49:23,119 --> 00:49:27,840 legislation passed, and I'm just going to keep trying to educate along the way. 771 00:49:29,079 --> 00:49:32,039 Ashley Spence of the DNA Justice Project, thank you so much for joining 772 00:49:32,159 --> 00:49:38,000 us today and sharing your story. It is very painful, but so ultimately 773 00:49:38,039 --> 00:49:40,880 heartening and inspiring. So thank you for taking the time to be with us 774 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:45,079 today. It is my true honor. Thank you so much. And where 775 00:49:45,079 --> 00:49:49,440 can we find you online if we're more, if we're interested in learning more 776 00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:52,119 about the DNA Justice Project. Yes, I have. I'm a one woman 777 00:49:52,199 --> 00:49:58,119 show, so I don't judge. I have a website DNA Justice Project dot 778 00:49:58,239 --> 00:50:00,599 org. Social media. I do that and I do more updated on what's 779 00:50:00,639 --> 00:50:04,760 going on legislatively, news and things of that nature, and you can follow 780 00:50:04,800 --> 00:50:07,239 me there as well. I would be really grateful. And that's about it, 781 00:50:08,000 --> 00:50:12,119 all right. Ashley. Thank you so much. Thank y'all so much 782 00:50:12,159 --> 00:50:15,280 for joining us for this episode of mind Ever Murder. We'll see you next 783 00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:30,239 time. Mind Over Murder is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. 784 00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:36,559 Our executive producers are Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is 785 00:50:36,599 --> 00:50:42,039 by Pamela Arnois. Our theme music is by Kevin McLoud. Mind Over Murder 786 00:50:42,159 --> 00:50:46,480 is distributed in partnership with Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, 787 00:50:46,639 --> 00:50:51,360 Twitter, or Instagram. You can also follow our page on the Colonial 788 00:50:51,400 --> 00:50:55,199 Parkway Murders on Facebook, and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter 789 00:50:55,280 --> 00:51:02,960 at Bill Thomas. Five six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder.