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We're doing a free community event at
my workplace, socahom Melescien University here in

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town on Thursday night to sort of
sync up with LINT as Christians turn their

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eyes toward the Cross and toward the
resurrection, and to ask some questions of

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well, how does that work when
we say that Jesus saves, especially through

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the unlikely means of death and through
across how does that actually work? And

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that's what the book is trying to
unpack for just regular folks. Well,

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that's great, and especially in this
time of our world, having that understanding,

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I think is very important and very
beneficial for people to really understand how

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it is that Jesus saves. And
you know, I don't want you to

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divulge too much information on your book
because then people won't come to the community

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event. But you are having this
discussion about how long is the discussion going

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to be happening on Thursday? So
on Thursday night, it starts at six

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thirty and it's going to last from
between forty five minutes to an hour,

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so it won't take your whole evening, but we do want to give some

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time for questions as well as a
presentation it's going to be accessible, so

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there won't be a test afterwards,
and we're going to try to make it

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accessible for anybody. You don't have
to be a pastor a theologian to come

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and enjoy it. Doctor mcnawll,
What made you have the decision or the

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want or desire to author this book? Well, several years ago I wrote

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a big academic book on atonement doctrine, which is just essentially looking at how

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Jesus saves and it was well received
by professors and things like that, which

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is I jokingly say that means that
nobody read it. And so one night

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I was praying with my daughter before
she went to sleep. And if you're

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a parent, you know that bedtime
often brings out kind of the deep questions.

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And sometimes those questions are just stalling
tactic to try to put off sleep

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a little bit. But never do
that. Never. Just yeah, Well,

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this particular, my daughter asked me, She said, Dad, how

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does Jesus save us by dying on
the cross? And she's a smart girl

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and she knows that death is not
normally a good thing. We had just

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been to our first funeral as a
family. Her uncle died when he was

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thirty years old from Louke Grigg's disease. And so here's a guy that she

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loved who had passed away about the
same age as Jesus. And so she

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was wrestling with We say this every
night when we pray, Jesus, you

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know, thank you for dying on
the cross for our sins, thank you

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for saving us. She sees the
cross at church, but even at a

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young age, she was like,
wait a minute, Like this doesn't really

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make sense. Death is a bad
thing, not a good thing. How

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does an innocent person dying for guilty
people fix anything? I mean, that

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seems unjust and kind of backwards when
we think about how justice or penalties work.

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And so, whether she knew it
or not, she was asking,

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how does atonement doctrine actually make any
sense once we get past just kind of

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the bumper stickers or the things we
say without thinking about it. And so

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I wrote this book to connect not
just with my daughter, but we just

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ordinary people who have those sorts of
questions. And I want to try to

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help them make sense of the Cross. Not that I've entirely figured it out,

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sure, but to help it connect
with ordinary people so that we can

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have more confidence in the Jesus that
we say we worship, not necessarily the

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understanding of the Jesus that we worship, in the faith in which that we

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have in him. I think you
open up very important topics because the concept

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of death as a reward almost I
hate to use the word of reward,

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but that is a very difficult thing
for most humans to understand. And so

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I would assume that your book,
I haven't read it yet, I look

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forward to reading it delves into that
topic a bit about how death can be

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seen as a reward, especially whenever
our Savior did it on behalf of our

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of us. Yeah. I think
one of the things I try to argue

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in the book is that human beings
have more than one problem. And we

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know that because we know we're fallen, we know we're frail, and death

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is one of the biggest ones.
And so I would say that Jesus comes

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to address all of our problems,
but he doesn't solve them in the same

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way. Right, And so we
say that Jesus bears our penalty. We

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say that Jesus conquers death and the
devil. We say that Jesus reveals what

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love looks like, and all of
these are important, but you mentioned the

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death question. That's the one that
my daughter was short was kind of spinning

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around in her mind. And so
I think what I would say for Christians

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is that Jesus transforms death. The
death is not a penalty right for those

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who are in Christ Jesus. Death
is a gateway to the presence of Jesus.

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Paul says, to be absent from
the body is to be present with

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the Lord. And ultimately death is
just part one because the hope that we

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have is what happened to Jesus,
that the God who raised Jesus from the

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dead will raise our bodies also,
And so the end of the story is

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not death. The end of the
story is not even living as like a

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ghost up in the clouds in heaven. The end of the story is what

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happened to Jesus, which is resurrection. And I think that's one of the

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things that makes the good news good
news, is that death doesn't get the

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final word. That's very true,
and you're right, your daughter unknowingly asked

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a deep question that I think every
human struggles with, especially if you are

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within the faith, and even more
so if you are outside of the faith.

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And what is your goal besides really
explaining how the atonement for ordinary people

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to take from your title of your
book, what is the goal that you're

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hoping to accomplish for maybe even non
believers. Yeah, I have a huge

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heart for people who are interested in
Jesus. They find him compelling, but

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they're kind of on the fence,
and they have questions they have maybe they

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have church hurt, maybe they have
baggage like all of us do. And

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so I would hope that even those
folks would come to the event. It's

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really designed for them, just as
much as it's designed for people who consider

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them selves Christians. I want them
to come with their questions and things like

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that. So really my goal is
to illuminate how Jesus saves from more than

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one angle. Most Christians have some
sort of answer that they give, but

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in most cases I think they fixate
on maybe just one angle, one angle

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of the problem, but also one
angle of the solution. And so one

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of my goals is to say that
the good News is actually better than we

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think, and it's greater than our
attempts to explain it. And so I

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want to illuminate some historic answers that
Christians have given throughout the centuries to expand

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our appreciation for what Jesus does.
And again we're talking here with doctor Josh

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mcnawll and Associate Professor Pastoral Theology at
Oklahoma Wesleyan University. He has authored a

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book, How Jesus Saves Atoned for
ordinary People and again just touch again on

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them. In the event that you're
going to be hosting this week, where

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is it at on campus? Where
are you going to be doing? What

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time? About? How long everything's
going to be? Well? Thank you

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again Nathan for having me. So
it's Thursday night, it's at six point

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thirty and it's on the campus of
Oklahoma Wesleyan University here in Bartlesville, Oklahoma.

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It's going to be in the Lion
Performance Hall, which is in the

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Chapel Fine Arts Center, is the
big building that you see from Silver Lake

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Road. There'll be plenty of parking
there. So six thirty is when it

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starts. There'll be copies of the
book for sale. There's small small group's

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curriculum, there's video curriculum, and
so folks want to pick up a copy,

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they can do that with check or
cash or Venmo. And we just

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want to serve the community. It's
free, it's for people from all backgrounds,

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from a variety of churches or denominations. We want to bless Bartlesville and

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not just the students who attend our
campus or suing their degree. We want

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to serve the community, and so
this is our chance to just say hey,

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we love you, we want to
help you out as we wrestle with

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How Jesus Saves Well, Doctor mcnaell, I tell you great things are always

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coming out of Oklahoma Wesleyan University.
This is just another thing. Your book,

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How Jesus Saves Atonemed for Ordinary People, will be available at that discussion

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that you'll be having on Thursday at
the Lion Performing Arts Center on the campus

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of Oklahoma wesley University six thirty pm. Doctor mcnawell, thank you so much

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for sharing your story and sharing your
book with us here as well. Thank

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you, Nathan, You're very welcome.