1 00:00:16,679 --> 00:00:20,879 We're back with another edition of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emil Jasnski, 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,679 culture editor here at the Federalist. As always, you can email the show 3 00:00:23,679 --> 00:00:27,359 at radio at the Federalist dot com, follow us on Twitter at fdr LST. 4 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:31,480 Make sure to subscribe wherever you download your podcasts into the premium version of 5 00:00:31,519 --> 00:00:35,719 our website as well. Not today's guest once again is Christopher Ruffo. He 6 00:00:35,840 --> 00:00:40,159 is the author of America's Cultural Revolution, How the Radical Left Conquered Everything. 7 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:44,399 It's a really really interesting rene. Highly recommend it before we get to that, 8 00:00:44,439 --> 00:00:47,880 and just want to say thank you to everyone for your comments. Last 9 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,960 week. We had some great guests, some big guests, Kim Strassel, 10 00:00:51,759 --> 00:00:55,759 Liz Wheeler. It was just a great lineup, and we have a really 11 00:00:55,799 --> 00:00:59,000 good lineup heading into the fall, so over the next month or so, 12 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,039 and then as we get into the post Labor day time, it's now the 13 00:01:03,119 --> 00:01:06,519 election cycle. It's the twenty twenty four cycle, where like a month out 14 00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,920 from the first debate, which is crazy and hard to believe because it feels 15 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:14,680 like we just did this, and of course we did, but it's only 16 00:01:14,719 --> 00:01:17,359 been a couple of years. So we're going to get back into the election 17 00:01:17,439 --> 00:01:19,640 cycle, groove back into the swing of things. So I just appreciate everyone 18 00:01:19,680 --> 00:01:25,719 listening. And you know, whenever we have an audio glitch, I always 19 00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:27,920 like to jump on and warn you first. This one is kind of funny 20 00:01:29,000 --> 00:01:33,079 and kind of an embarrassing audio glitch. A lot of people know. So 21 00:01:33,159 --> 00:01:37,319 Federalist Radio Hour used to be taped every single day in a studio before the 22 00:01:37,359 --> 00:01:42,079 pandemic. Since the pandemic, you know, especially during the pandemic, there 23 00:01:42,159 --> 00:01:47,359 was no way to get into a studio, and Federalist Radio Hours one of 24 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:49,560 the longest. I assume it's one of the longest running conservative podcasts. I've 25 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:53,439 never actually crunched the numbers, but that's thanks in no small part at all. 26 00:01:53,439 --> 00:01:59,079 It's a Ben dominicic being a visionarian and understanding where this medium was going 27 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:05,439 and putting so much time and energy and so many resources into it. So 28 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:10,759 we take audio quality very seriously, always have. But you probably know that 29 00:02:10,879 --> 00:02:15,280 I run a journalism training program during the summer months. It's called National Journalism 30 00:02:15,319 --> 00:02:21,080 Center. We work with twenty interns party Young America's Foundation and place them all 31 00:02:21,080 --> 00:02:24,439 over and so in the summer sometimes I have to record on the go. 32 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:30,319 So I've been recording on the goal with this great little microphone that I got, 33 00:02:30,439 --> 00:02:34,879 but it's we're just having some technical issues with that. So I got 34 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:38,680 another microphone, and long story short, actually this is just long story long. 35 00:02:39,159 --> 00:02:42,759 I realised I've been like rambling for a couple of minutes now. But 36 00:02:44,159 --> 00:02:46,000 you know, it's I think it's a sign of respectory of listeners. You 37 00:02:46,000 --> 00:02:49,800 know, as a somebody who listens to podcasts, I know how important, 38 00:02:49,879 --> 00:02:53,000 especially when you're listening with headphones. But in this case, I got a 39 00:02:53,120 --> 00:03:00,400 new like travel microphone, and part of the system that I have where I 40 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:07,560 was recording wasn't working, and so in this microphone, then another actually then 41 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:09,879 another glitch happened as we were recording. So we had like a perfect storm 42 00:03:10,039 --> 00:03:15,000 of errors. And this is after like actually prepping a lot for Chris to 43 00:03:15,039 --> 00:03:17,280 come on, because he's such a great guest and the book is so good. 44 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:23,879 But you will hear me breathing over Chris talking, because well, it's 45 00:03:23,919 --> 00:03:24,879 just for a lot of different reasons. If you know what audio is, 46 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:29,639 you know the importance of having multiple tracks going, you know the importance of 47 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:36,159 monitoring the audio and working on the different tracks as you're recording. So I 48 00:03:36,199 --> 00:03:40,400 won't get into the details of it, but basically there was an issue with 49 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:45,639 recording two separate tracks and you could just really here be breathing. That's why 50 00:03:45,639 --> 00:03:49,759 I say it's embarrassing because it picking up like every breath and just like amplifying 51 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:54,080 it that I take. So on that note, we this was just a 52 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:59,240 really good conversation with Chris. His book is excellent, and so we wanted 53 00:03:59,280 --> 00:04:02,319 to get it out to you all. But I do I promise you this 54 00:04:02,439 --> 00:04:06,719 is the last time you can hold me to account for this, So the 55 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:13,199 last time you'll have an audio glitch. Usually when that happens, I'm able 56 00:04:13,199 --> 00:04:16,000 to rerecord or do something to that effect, unless there's like a real time 57 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:18,720 crunch. But I promise you this is the last time you'll have an audio 58 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:24,600 glitch on Federalist Radio Hour, because we're putting a lot into making sure that 59 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:27,240 doesn't happen, a lot of resources, a lot of effort. And one 60 00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:30,519 of the cool things about Federalist Radio Hour also is that we have never had 61 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,399 like a professional podcasting staff. The Federalist is tiny. You'd be surprised to 62 00:04:33,439 --> 00:04:36,319 know how small our staff is, and so we all just sort of pitch 63 00:04:36,439 --> 00:04:43,040 in on the audio side, on the podcasting side, it's just it's it's 64 00:04:43,079 --> 00:04:46,680 so cool and I love that about us. And you know, that's where 65 00:04:46,759 --> 00:04:51,120 I think our podcast is like closer to a lot of folks, you know, 66 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:57,240 closer to a lot of folks in that it's you know, it's not 67 00:04:57,319 --> 00:05:03,560 this like big corporate operation in Manhattan, you know, where you have bosses, 68 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:09,360 you overseeing what said or whatever else. It's it's pretty raw and organic. 69 00:05:09,439 --> 00:05:13,160 So on that note, I just want to thank everyone for listening and 70 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:15,800 give you a little update. But please enjoy this conversation with the one and 71 00:05:15,839 --> 00:05:24,399 only Chris Ruffo. Chris, thank you for joining the show. It's great 72 00:05:24,399 --> 00:05:27,519 to be with you. Yeah, it's it's a really really, really really 73 00:05:27,519 --> 00:05:30,639 interesting book on so many different levels. We got into it a little bit 74 00:05:30,639 --> 00:05:33,639 with my coast rank Graham over on counterpoints to the sorting, and I loved 75 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:40,120 hearing kind of the back and forth. I want to start with something I 76 00:05:40,240 --> 00:05:43,680 thought that I had because our listeners are definitely familiar with critical race theory. 77 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,759 They're familiar with your protriques of critical race theory, broader sort of critical theory 78 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:51,639 world. I want to start in a sort of historical question. As I 79 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:56,160 was reading the book, I realized so much of the development of the New 80 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:59,639 Left, it sort of was forged in the cauldron of the Cold War. 81 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,000 And I want to ask how the end of the Cold War, as we 82 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:05,360 get to the eighties and the nineties and you have, you know, Judith 83 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:11,199 Butler, the evolution of the new Left into something a little bit different, 84 00:06:11,639 --> 00:06:15,560 a little bit Marcusian. Maybe, how does the end of the Cold War 85 00:06:15,800 --> 00:06:20,079 effect the direction the left takes into something that feels a lot more elite than 86 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:27,600 Marxist. I think that the failure of global communism that was really kind of 87 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,600 conclusively revealed by the end of the Cold War changed left wing politics. In 88 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,079 some ways, they've retreated to issues of race, gender, and identity that 89 00:06:36,199 --> 00:06:42,199 required less of those structural, economic, and revolutionary changes. But in other 90 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:46,040 ways they accelerated into those issues. I mean, they used them and wielded 91 00:06:46,079 --> 00:06:51,560 them as tools for achieving power in a way that's had a profound influence on 92 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:56,800 our country, and in most cases, a profoundly negative influence. But it 93 00:06:56,879 --> 00:07:01,920 also had a critical impact on the right. The end of the Cold War 94 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:06,920 put the right to sleep, you know, conservatives frankly felt that they had 95 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:13,319 defeated communism, it had been vanquished forever, and they stopped being vigilant, 96 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,680 they stopped paying attention, and they let the left, and the radical left 97 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:21,639 in particular, complete its long march through the institutions without any resistance. And 98 00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:25,839 so the end of the Cold War, although it was a triumph for the 99 00:07:25,839 --> 00:07:30,839 politics of the political right, also created an opening for the political left that 100 00:07:30,879 --> 00:07:39,959 they exploited quite brilliantly, and I think exposed some of the tendencies to either 101 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:45,759 abdicate or retreat on behalf on our side that have left us in a weak 102 00:07:45,839 --> 00:07:49,319 position institutionally today. Yeah. So William F. Buckley's writing got him in 103 00:07:49,360 --> 00:07:54,040 at Yale in the fifties, and you rite, you have this great section 104 00:07:54,079 --> 00:07:57,040 in the book about how, you know, the new left kind of looking 105 00:07:57,079 --> 00:08:03,279 around at a certain point they end up taking to the academy and becoming, 106 00:08:03,439 --> 00:08:09,240 you know, the establishment of the university system essentially. And I want to 107 00:08:09,240 --> 00:08:11,000 ask you just sort of about the conditions you kind of just answered this question 108 00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:16,560 interestingly enough, But answer this incredible question of Now we take for granted that 109 00:08:16,639 --> 00:08:20,519 there are you know, former Weather underground guys all over the university system. 110 00:08:20,519 --> 00:08:26,240 But what conditions allowed for them to enter the academy even as you have pretty 111 00:08:26,319 --> 00:08:30,480 high profile, high profile critics like William of Buckley. Although this isn't the 112 00:08:30,519 --> 00:08:33,399 context of communism, Um, how do you end up, you know, 113 00:08:33,399 --> 00:08:39,759 with these this total takeover of one of the institutions at a time when the 114 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:45,279 public really had no interest in that takeover happening. I think the answer is 115 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,720 that in the nineteen sixties and seventies, the left wing radicals learned politics in 116 00:08:48,759 --> 00:08:54,159 the streets. They were prepared to riots, to attack the police, to 117 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:58,840 plant bombs, to to take other extreme measures to advance their political cause. 118 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:05,000 And although that failed, they took those lessons that they learned with them as 119 00:09:05,039 --> 00:09:11,360 they entered and really infiltrated academic institutions. And so when you have these battle 120 00:09:11,480 --> 00:09:18,480 hardened revolutionaries going into faculty meetings with these timid, bespectacled you know, a 121 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,440 small l liberal academics, there's no contest there. The radicals are gonna win. 122 00:09:22,480 --> 00:09:28,240 They're gonna certain their will, their authority, They're gonna decisively take over 123 00:09:28,519 --> 00:09:33,639 in time. That's exactly what they did. And at the same time, 124 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:39,360 as these radicals are moving through the university systems. Conservatives are in a sense 125 00:09:39,519 --> 00:09:43,120 retreating. They're they're they're taking solace in the nineteen eighties and nineties and in 126 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:48,080 economic positions, positions, in business positions, and let's say, the hard 127 00:09:48,159 --> 00:09:54,080 sciences, feeling that they could essentially let go of the culture, the humanities, 128 00:09:54,120 --> 00:09:58,559 the liberal arts. And then by the time you get into the two 129 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,919 thousands, even the twenty ten, the conservative position is, look at all 130 00:10:01,919 --> 00:10:09,039 these morons with blue hair graduating with gender studies degrees. Hahaha, They're never 131 00:10:09,039 --> 00:10:11,840 gonna be able to get a job. But that was always a naive and 132 00:10:11,879 --> 00:10:16,559 self satisfied view that was not true at all. And in fact, those 133 00:10:16,919 --> 00:10:20,519 you know, blue haired gender studies, you know, the lunatics, are 134 00:10:20,559 --> 00:10:26,799 now like teaching your kids, you know, the pronouns in kindergarten. They're 135 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:31,679 staffing the HR bureaucracy and corporations. They're you know, leading the di initiatives 136 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:37,879 at public universities. They weren't unemployable in the traditional business sense. They were 137 00:10:39,159 --> 00:10:45,360 useless economically, but they were highly employable in these new ideological positions. And 138 00:10:45,399 --> 00:10:48,600 that's exactly what they did, and that's exactly how they took their ideas into 139 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,919 positions of power. I wonder, as somebody who's studied Marxism really closely, 140 00:10:54,120 --> 00:10:58,080 if there's a I'm genuinely curious about this. I don't know the answer because 141 00:10:58,120 --> 00:11:01,240 I haven't liked closely at it, I'm not familiar with the literature. If 142 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,679 there's an potential argument that we're at a point in the sort of Marxist process 143 00:11:05,840 --> 00:11:11,480 that societies go through from capitalism to the ultimate sort of ends where a Marxist 144 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:16,080 might sort of step back and say, actually, you know, the contradictions 145 00:11:16,080 --> 00:11:20,000 are heightening, or a Leninist, the contradictions are heightening, and we are 146 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,000 we are actually just in the middle of this uncomfortable period. But this is 147 00:11:24,159 --> 00:11:28,720 in a sense sort of what Marx predicted or what he was describing. Is 148 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:33,000 there an argument for that as at all, especially in the context of the 149 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:35,879 class argument that you make in this book that's so important, you know, 150 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:41,000 I don't think so. Actually, I think that the opposite is more true, 151 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:46,559 because you know, class has more or less disappeared from the debate, 152 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:54,159 and in a sense, the neoliberal economics have become supreme everywhere, including the 153 00:11:54,720 --> 00:12:01,000 last remaining large communist country, the People's Republic of China. They don't even 154 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:05,960 believe in the materialist dialectic anymore. They don't believe in the labor theory of 155 00:12:05,039 --> 00:12:09,240 value. They don't believe that societies are based on class conflict that will eventually 156 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:16,120 culminate in a classless society. They too have become comfortable, which with what 157 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,480 I believe is inevitable. There will be a social hierarchy. There will be 158 00:12:20,799 --> 00:12:26,000 social classes. There always have been in the past, there always will be 159 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:31,519 in the future. You know, groups will never be fully equal in every 160 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,519 measurable way. There's going to be distinctions and differences. And so I think 161 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:39,360 that even even mark you know, you ever, once in a while, 162 00:12:39,399 --> 00:12:43,559 I'll come across an orthodox Marxist economic mark system. It's like you're talking to 163 00:12:43,639 --> 00:12:48,200 a museum exhibit. I mean, it's really fascinating. It's like these people 164 00:12:48,320 --> 00:12:52,279 rattle off about all these all the kind of orthodox Marxist theories, and you 165 00:12:52,360 --> 00:13:00,279 say your theories have no harmony or no relationship to reality. I mean, 166 00:13:00,399 --> 00:13:05,360 it's like it's kind of actually fascinating in a way. But I think besides 167 00:13:05,399 --> 00:13:09,639 some people who have really insulated their minds, you know, pretty much everyone 168 00:13:09,639 --> 00:13:11,519 on the left, certainly the mainstream left, even the radical left, the 169 00:13:11,519 --> 00:13:16,600 EI left, whatever you want to talk about, historical materialism just doesn't hold 170 00:13:16,679 --> 00:13:20,360 water anymore. Yeah, no, that's that's a really good perspective. When 171 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:26,159 we were talking about the book with Ryan Graham of The Intercept and my coaster 172 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:28,919 over at Counterpoints I mentioned earlier, we were talking to you about this today 173 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:35,799 and he sort of took issue with the role that MARCUSA plays in your book, 174 00:13:35,919 --> 00:13:39,919 and I thought that was kind of interesting. It was an interesting critique 175 00:13:39,919 --> 00:13:46,679 because you actually outline pretty well how MARCUSA influences Angela Davis and sort of ushers 176 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:52,240 in this tradition you know, in the sort of mid century period that was 177 00:13:52,279 --> 00:13:54,960 really effective. But for the benefit of this audience, could you talk to 178 00:13:56,039 --> 00:14:00,200 us a little bit about I know, you obviously already were very famili You're 179 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,399 with Mark Crisman as you were writing the book and sort of putting together this 180 00:14:03,519 --> 00:14:07,120 narrative, which it really is. It's so compelling because it goes through it 181 00:14:07,159 --> 00:14:11,200 as a narrative. What do you think stands out about his influence over the 182 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:15,960 left at that really critical time period. Yeah? Absolutely, I mean the 183 00:14:16,279 --> 00:14:20,240 I approached the book with a storytelling frame because I wanted it to be interesting 184 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:24,279 and entertaining as well as, you know, educational. But I think your 185 00:14:24,279 --> 00:14:28,519 colleagues critique was quite interesting. And I've actually had the same critique from someone 186 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:35,759 on the right, an author named Richard Hanania, and both Hannania and Grim 187 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:39,840 offered the same critique, And the essence of the critique is, well, 188 00:14:39,879 --> 00:14:45,039 you're looking at these personalities. You're looking at specifically at intellectuals like Herbert Marcusa. 189 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:48,240 You're attributing all this power to them. But isn't it more true to 190 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:56,120 say that there were structural and economic forces at play that were more determinative of 191 00:14:56,600 --> 00:15:05,240 the arc of the historical process, And aren't you overweighting the power of intellectuals? 192 00:15:05,279 --> 00:15:09,080 And I think that the answer is no to both of those critiques, 193 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:13,840 for slightly different reasons for each one. But but but the ultimate thing is, 194 00:15:13,919 --> 00:15:20,559 you know, the ideas shape policy, the shape law, they shape 195 00:15:20,559 --> 00:15:26,440 politics, They shape these movements, and and of course the deeper let's say, 196 00:15:26,600 --> 00:15:33,960 societal or economic or political trends are extremely important, but they always express 197 00:15:33,080 --> 00:15:41,080 themselves ultimately through individuals. And Marcusa served to rationalize the politics of the nineteen 198 00:15:41,159 --> 00:15:46,120 sixties, to turn it into a coherent story to give it a language, 199 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:54,440 and so I reject a kind of materialist reduction or it says, oh no, 200 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:56,799 no, it's all these structural things and the ideas don't matter, the 201 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:02,639 intellectuals don't matter. And I think both in grim and Hanania's case, you 202 00:16:02,639 --> 00:16:07,600 know, their own work betrays that even they do not believe it, because 203 00:16:07,720 --> 00:16:10,679 why would they be writers, why would they be intellectuals. Why would they 204 00:16:10,679 --> 00:16:15,360 be talking to me if they didn't believe that the ideas actually mattered and determine 205 00:16:15,399 --> 00:16:18,159 the course of events. And so I think the truth is some sort of 206 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,120 mixed. But what I did in the book, and I think it's the 207 00:16:22,159 --> 00:16:26,399 correct way of doing it in this case, is I told the stories of 208 00:16:26,399 --> 00:16:30,879 the individuals as symbols of these larger processes and then try to relate their ideas 209 00:16:30,919 --> 00:16:36,320 and their personal stories to these larger trends. And ultimately, I think that's 210 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:38,759 more entertaining too, for the readers to say, oh wow, I get 211 00:16:38,759 --> 00:16:45,120 to grasp these human stories and have that reveal maybe a more profound truth than 212 00:16:45,639 --> 00:16:49,039 some dry statistical analysis with a bunch of charts and tables at the back. 213 00:16:51,120 --> 00:16:56,919 Yeah, that's fair. Can you talk to about Freers such an interesting moment 214 00:16:56,279 --> 00:16:59,960 in the history of the left that I think it's glossed over a lot. 215 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:02,919 I didn't know a lot of the history you include in the book, but 216 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,079 just sort of like for the audience, you guys should go buy the book, 217 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:08,599 but maybe what their appetites a little bit crisis to what they can expect 218 00:17:08,599 --> 00:17:12,839 from that chapter. Yeah, there's a whole section on education. And the 219 00:17:14,720 --> 00:17:19,720 figure that I profile most in depth is a Brazilian Neo Marxist pedagogist named Paolo 220 00:17:19,799 --> 00:17:25,680 Frera, and he's kind of an interesting figure because, of course he comes 221 00:17:25,759 --> 00:17:30,480 from the Third World, but he served a term as a visiting scholar at 222 00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,000 Harvard and then over the course of the last fifty years has actually become the 223 00:17:34,039 --> 00:17:41,079 most influential educational theorists in the United States and actually the third most cited academic 224 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:44,440 in all of the social sciences. I mean, he is truly like the 225 00:17:44,559 --> 00:17:48,680 god of the education schools in the United States. And I go through his 226 00:17:48,759 --> 00:17:52,480 actual record and that's the thing that to me was the most instructive. It's 227 00:17:52,519 --> 00:17:56,160 like, well, you know, he preached kind of a Marxist style of 228 00:17:56,279 --> 00:18:00,000 education, but does it work? That seems to be a fair question to 229 00:18:00,039 --> 00:18:04,799 ask, and the historical record in his own life, he actually became the 230 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:14,960 leading kind of education propagandist or education consultant to the Marxist Leninist governments of in 231 00:18:15,000 --> 00:18:18,680 Africa and in Latin America. And he actually ran the education program for a 232 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:26,200 small country called Guinea Bissau after it was liberated from Portuguese rule in the in 233 00:18:26,240 --> 00:18:30,240 the nineteen sixties and then you know, into the seventies where he worked there, 234 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,000 and and some scholars went in afterwards and they said, oh, wow, 235 00:18:33,079 --> 00:18:37,240 pala Fare was in charge of education, you know, and he wanted 236 00:18:37,279 --> 00:18:40,599 to bring literacy to the to the to the impoverished masses. How did he 237 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:45,759 do? And they found that he actually is likely to have taught exactly zero 238 00:18:45,839 --> 00:18:49,720 people how to read. I mean like he had an illiterate society when he 239 00:18:49,799 --> 00:18:55,279 arrived. They did all this work, and then he left in the society 240 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:57,359 was still more or less illiterate. And so it's like, wait a minute, 241 00:18:57,720 --> 00:19:03,680 if you can't teach people how to read in these places, why should 242 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:10,200 we change our very successful educational system in the United States to model it on 243 00:19:10,279 --> 00:19:14,240 your theories? And so over and over that's what you'll find in the book 244 00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:18,559 is idealism that turns into disillusionment, that turns into despair, that turns into 245 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,319 nihilism. That's the process that I see over and over. I'm curious for 246 00:19:23,480 --> 00:19:27,559 your thoughts on why, because, especially since you've worked so closely on, 247 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:33,480 for instance, stop Woke or with Governors santisis various policy proposals, many of 248 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:40,240 which were creative and targeted, but should have, from my perspective and probably 249 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,359 your perspective, happened years ago. These are things that probably could have been 250 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,240 on the table. I get that the threat wasn't as sort of open and 251 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,960 bold as it is now, especially post twenty twenty, but why was the 252 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:57,720 conservative movement not targeting legislation like this? Wasn't you know why we're policy solutions 253 00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:02,920 like these not on the table at the conservative movement for so long, despite 254 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:06,039 the fact that there are so many organizations in the conservative movement and there has 255 00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:11,440 been so much conversation the conservative movements since William of Buckley largely founded it about 256 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:17,599 the academy, about the corruption of the university system. I think because conservative 257 00:20:17,599 --> 00:20:23,640 politicians felt a sense of fear. I think because conservative politicians, you know, 258 00:20:23,680 --> 00:20:30,079 were persuaded incorrectly in my view, that the culture War was not something 259 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:34,359 that was substantive or important. And then I think also because conservatives who had 260 00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:38,759 fought on these issues for many, many decades, had consistently lost on these 261 00:20:38,759 --> 00:20:42,720 issues. And so if you're a politician, or you're ambitious, or you 262 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,400 want to make a name for yourself, you know, why would you pick 263 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:51,880 up a set of losing issues that you weren't sure was worth fighting that could 264 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:56,680 you had had high risk and low return. And the reason that I think 265 00:20:56,720 --> 00:21:03,960 that everything changed was first and foremost, um, the country changed dramatically after 266 00:21:03,599 --> 00:21:08,480 twenty twenty, the George Floyd riots, critical race theory, gender ideology, 267 00:21:10,039 --> 00:21:18,519 the real clear understanding that our institutions had been captured by these ideas. And 268 00:21:18,079 --> 00:21:23,640 I think it also created an opening for some some political creativity, some activisms, 269 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,759 a lot of the projects that I've been working on to actually turn these 270 00:21:27,960 --> 00:21:36,039 ideas into winning ideas for conservatives. And then when we had these great leaders 271 00:21:36,079 --> 00:21:41,599 like Governor to Santus in Florida and others demonstrate that, uh, that that 272 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:45,440 not only were these important issues to work on, but they actually made you 273 00:21:45,559 --> 00:21:48,640 more popular. They got you in the headlines, They rallied the base, 274 00:21:48,720 --> 00:21:53,359 they galvanized voters, they won over swing voters. UM. Certainly Glen Youngcan 275 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:59,079 in Virginia won his campaign on critical race theory in twenty twenty one. UM. 276 00:21:59,599 --> 00:22:03,279 You know, politicians are our creatures of opportunity, and so we created 277 00:22:03,279 --> 00:22:07,200 the conditions through the narrative work, through the activist work, through the journalistic 278 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:12,079 work, for politicians to win. And what I've learned, like the biggest 279 00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:17,680 lesson I've learned about politics, is create the conditions for politicians to win, 280 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,400 and they're going to do what you desire and and and it's in a sense, 281 00:22:23,039 --> 00:22:30,119 channeling self interest into a productive and mutually beneficial arrangement or system of incentives. 282 00:22:30,839 --> 00:22:33,279 And that's kind of it. I don't I don't know, maybe it's 283 00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,359 maybe it's more complex than that, but that's how I think of it, 284 00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:38,640 and I think, you know, in my experience, it's worked. I 285 00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:44,000 just read the great Mary Harrington's review of the book right before we started taping. 286 00:22:44,079 --> 00:22:48,319 I gave it a glance, and it's largely positive. She has one 287 00:22:48,319 --> 00:22:51,720 point where she says, you know, the book basically could have had more 288 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:57,400 on what conditions speaking of conditions created an opening. Its actually used the same 289 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:03,559 language for the new Left and the contemporary left to have people rioting in the 290 00:23:03,599 --> 00:23:07,240 streets in nineteen sixty eight and in twenty twenty. And I'm paraphrasing Mary, 291 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:11,720 that's son exactly how she said it. I'm sort of taking extending the argument. 292 00:23:12,039 --> 00:23:17,039 And that's an interesting question because it gets to what conservatives can be doing 293 00:23:17,079 --> 00:23:21,559 in the future. You know, is there something This is probably a fair 294 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,640 question because the book does touch so much on class appropriately, so is there 295 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:30,960 something the conservative movement that the Republican Party needs to do on the economic question 296 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:40,880 to make critical race theory less palatable to people from coast to coast on economics, 297 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,279 I don't think so. I don't think that people feel one way or 298 00:23:44,559 --> 00:23:48,640 another about critical race theory because of economic conditions or their own economic fortunes. 299 00:23:51,480 --> 00:23:55,640 I'm not sure that you'd find a lot of argument there. I think actually, 300 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:59,079 one thing that I really hope conservatives can do, and it's a great 301 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:03,079 question to head off some of these dynamics, to kind of take the legs 302 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:08,640 out from underneath them is more of a demographic and political coalition question. And 303 00:24:10,079 --> 00:24:14,000 um, what I think conservatives have a huge opportunity to do right now is 304 00:24:14,039 --> 00:24:19,000 to split what we could. You know, what has traditionally been called the 305 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:22,359 minority vote. So people say, oh, it's the minority vote, it's 306 00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:26,720 a it's a voting block. It goes left, you know, kind of 307 00:24:26,799 --> 00:24:32,000 non whites. You know, originally in our kind of demographic history mostly you 308 00:24:32,079 --> 00:24:34,599 know, predominantly white and black population. Now you have a white and multiracial 309 00:24:34,599 --> 00:24:40,359 population. But we think of minority voters as a block. That that's not 310 00:24:40,480 --> 00:24:45,200 true. There's a lot of evidence to suggest that Asian Americans and Hispanics and 311 00:24:45,319 --> 00:24:52,039 Latinos are are very much open to the message from conservatives on a number of 312 00:24:52,079 --> 00:24:56,039 issues. And we've had elections even in places like Boston, New York, 313 00:24:56,079 --> 00:25:00,039 San Francisco where Asians have broken hard towards conservative play is like Florida and Texas 314 00:25:00,039 --> 00:25:06,240 where Latinos have broken hard towards conservatives. And so I think that if conservatives 315 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:10,720 can make a concerted push to win over the most gettable votes, that's kind 316 00:25:10,759 --> 00:25:14,200 of how you where you have to line up, but specifically with Asians and 317 00:25:14,319 --> 00:25:18,359 Latinos, if you can, if you can have a broad, you know, 318 00:25:18,759 --> 00:25:26,359 multiracial political coalition, you can sap the entire narrative energy and advantage that 319 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,200 the left has, which is to say, you know, essentially the critical 320 00:25:30,279 --> 00:25:34,160 race theory whiteness is evil, and you know bipoc are are are great and 321 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:40,440 virtuous. They've created that division that has been successfully for them, successful for 322 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:44,279 them rhetorically. But if you can say that no, no, no, 323 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:48,920 this is not a pure kind of white non white question or a pure kind 324 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:55,559 of racially tribal question, you depolarize that that conflict, which I think is 325 00:25:55,599 --> 00:25:59,960 good for the country, and you also deprive your opponents of a rhetorical tool, 326 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,319 and in fact, you can build a broader base of support that is 327 00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:08,599 less vulnerable to that line of critique, both substantively and also rhetorically. And 328 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:14,200 so I think conservatives need to do that. And Asians of Latinos are of 329 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:18,400 course also a fast growing demographic and I think going to be one that is 330 00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:25,519 determining elections. So that, to me is the most important thing that political 331 00:26:25,599 --> 00:26:29,440 leaders need to be working on. I think there's a huge opportunity there. 332 00:26:30,279 --> 00:26:34,039 One area that just fills me with despair is thinking about litigating so much of 333 00:26:34,039 --> 00:26:40,000 this over social media, and yet you've been really successful social media seems to 334 00:26:40,039 --> 00:26:44,519 me like it's been a net benefit to the cause of eradicating critical race theory 335 00:26:44,599 --> 00:26:48,400 from in so many institutions that have embedded itself in without the public necessarily realizing 336 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:52,759 it. So I wonder just on that super almost it's almost a silly question, 337 00:26:52,880 --> 00:27:00,880 but do you think social media has been overall helpful or full in the 338 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:04,359 fight against CRT and basically the broader cultural left that you describe in the book. 339 00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,279 I think social social media is essential and it's the most powerful tool that 340 00:27:10,319 --> 00:27:15,519 we have as conservatives. And while of course I share everyone's concern about censorship, 341 00:27:15,599 --> 00:27:21,880 about deep platforming, about you know, whatever kind of machinations you know, 342 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,319 people are trying to do to suppress conservative voices, the real truth, 343 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:32,480 the kind of bedrock reality of the situation, is that conservatives have more ability 344 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,119 to reach the public today than they've ever had before. And even though we 345 00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:41,759 don't have the mainstream media institutions on our side, we can bypass them and 346 00:27:41,839 --> 00:27:48,720 in a way that is just unprecedented and offers us huge advantage and conservatives too. 347 00:27:48,759 --> 00:27:52,119 We thrive on low cost communications methods. Talk radio is the one in 348 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:56,079 the eighties and nineties. The Internet is the one for the you know, 349 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,640 twenty twenty, twenty twenties, and so I know in my own experience, 350 00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:06,240 but also my observation that this is an essential tool that we have to master 351 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:11,160 and offers us really unlimited opportunities. You know, that's interesting because from my 352 00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:18,200 perspective, one of the reasons Marxism starts to catch I mean, obviously this 353 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:22,759 is an industrial era, industrial revolution era philosophy, but then a lot of 354 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:30,079 the reasons some of the starts catching tractions because the effects of industrialization that are 355 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,000 negative. I'm obviously not saying they're all negative, but the ones that are 356 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:40,519 create conditions that make it really easy for miserable people to flock to a moral 357 00:28:40,559 --> 00:28:42,720 relativism. You know, if you are starting, because of technology to a 358 00:28:42,799 --> 00:28:48,759 question objective reality and objective truth, that lays the groundwork for people who are 359 00:28:48,839 --> 00:28:52,720 saying or have really bad philosophies to come in, and because you see your 360 00:28:52,759 --> 00:28:57,359 truth versus another person's truth, it's just easier to gravitate towards bad ideas. 361 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:03,720 And I feel like social media really creates those conditions just psychologically, especially for 362 00:29:03,759 --> 00:29:07,119 young people who grow up you know, without landlines even and in the age 363 00:29:07,119 --> 00:29:10,119 where by fens just sort of in the air. And you're a dad, 364 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:12,680 so you probably have a little bit more insight into this than I do. 365 00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,920 But it seems like just on a psychological level, social media is sort of 366 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:22,799 dangerous in that terrain. Yeah, for sure, Yeah, certainly. And 367 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:27,119 my comments before, you know, we we have political opportunities. I think 368 00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:32,720 there's huge potential. It's an essential tool, but of course, you know, 369 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:37,640 like everything else, that comes also with some costs, and we're seeing 370 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:41,440 those costs, and I think that politicians are becoming more comfortable with figuring out 371 00:29:41,519 --> 00:29:47,559 how to you know, restrict or regulate social media. I know that as 372 00:29:47,599 --> 00:29:51,119 a father, I restrict and regulate social media in the sense that my kids 373 00:29:51,119 --> 00:29:52,720 don't have any devices. They don't have to sell the phones, they don't 374 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,359 have you know, you know, they have a little TV time, everyone's 375 00:29:56,400 --> 00:30:02,400 little while movies like nineties movies that I let them a I. Um, 376 00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:06,359 you know, we're like getting really into Arnold Schwarzenegger and the Ninja Turtles and 377 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:11,640 all that. But but you know, it's a question, you know, 378 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,960 of how you use it. It's a question for what ends, um, 379 00:30:15,920 --> 00:30:19,960 But it is a reality that we have to grapple with and and and I 380 00:30:21,039 --> 00:30:25,440 kind of, you know, in my personal life maybe maybe have a bit 381 00:30:25,519 --> 00:30:29,720 different policy than in my political life, where I'm very very online. UM. 382 00:30:29,759 --> 00:30:33,599 But for the questions we're talking about today, UM, I just think 383 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:38,960 that we need to have strength messaging. The movement needs to get more sophisticated. 384 00:30:40,599 --> 00:30:44,200 UM. And in the way we communicate. UM. I think that 385 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:48,240 there's so much room for improvement. UM. And I hope that as many 386 00:30:48,279 --> 00:30:52,519 people have told me, and I don't think I'm you know, being boastful, 387 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:53,400 but they said, hey, you know, I've learned a lot watching 388 00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:59,680 you work and watching your activism go from social media to the actual real political 389 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,319 world. And so I'm hoping that I can, you know, even teach 390 00:31:03,359 --> 00:31:07,799 others in our sphere some of the lessons that I've learned, you know. 391 00:31:07,799 --> 00:31:15,079 And you're a part of catching Gunald Trump's attention on embedded CRT in the federal 392 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:19,440 bureaucracy. And if you combine Trump and de Santis in polling right now, 393 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,279 that's like seventy percent of the Republican Party, about fifty percent of it to 394 00:31:22,279 --> 00:31:26,240 Donald Trump, about twenty percent of it to run to Santis. So I 395 00:31:26,279 --> 00:31:30,200 feel like the sentiment when it comes to this sort of cultural leftism embedded in 396 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:34,559 our bureaucracy, embedded in our institutions is now mainstream, and the Republican Party 397 00:31:34,880 --> 00:31:37,799 so on that. No, Chris, I want to ask you what you 398 00:31:37,839 --> 00:31:45,000 think Republicans are still doing wrong when it comes to sort of defeating the cultural 399 00:31:45,319 --> 00:31:48,920 left. There is the party? Is the Republican Party? Is the conservative 400 00:31:48,960 --> 00:31:53,319 movement still getting some key things? Any key things wrong? Yeah? No, 401 00:31:53,559 --> 00:31:56,400 I mean I think your your point is is great, and I think 402 00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:00,720 you know Trump and de Santis are both ready willing and able to fight the 403 00:32:00,759 --> 00:32:05,279 culture war. I think if either of them gets into office, they'll be 404 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,200 working hard on these issues. I'm, of course I'm supporting Governor to Santis. 405 00:32:10,279 --> 00:32:14,599 I've worked closely with him. I also worked with President Trump and his 406 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,920 team, and I still know many of his advisors and have good relationships there. 407 00:32:19,039 --> 00:32:22,640 But they know what the fight is and that's why voters are responding to 408 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:28,720 them. But yet we still have some of these kind of old school Republicans 409 00:32:28,799 --> 00:32:32,000 and in the Nicky Haley vein of things that just don't get it. And 410 00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:37,720 it's like I remember watching Nicky Haley's campaign launch and the whole thing was you 411 00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:42,039 know, I'm a minority woman. Hear me, roar. The left is 412 00:32:42,079 --> 00:32:45,440 so terrified of me because they've never seen a minority woman, you know, 413 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:49,519 with her high heels on, you know, stomping out, you know thet 414 00:32:49,599 --> 00:32:53,440 It's like, what are you doing? You aren't giving an identity politics frame 415 00:32:53,559 --> 00:32:59,960 to your campaign which seems, you know, sassy and bold on the surface, 416 00:33:00,599 --> 00:33:06,079 but actually concedes the entire premise of your argument to your opponents. And 417 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,920 guess what if that's your frame is you know, who is more identity? 418 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:15,000 You know they're going to win every time. Ultimately, they don't give a 419 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:19,920 they don't give two. You know, they don't care at all about your 420 00:33:19,960 --> 00:33:22,720 actual identity. You know, they'll they'll say that you're the black face of 421 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:27,000 white supremacy if they have to. Right, do you think you're going to 422 00:33:27,079 --> 00:33:30,680 out identity politics that left Nikki Haley? No? And then you say, 423 00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,319 well, what are your actual policies? And it's like unlimited warfare all over 424 00:33:35,359 --> 00:33:38,240 the planet, um and and then and then you know, but don't intervene 425 00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:45,000 when when they're they're giving pornography to kids in public schools. It's like these 426 00:33:45,079 --> 00:33:49,079 folks are insane. They want to intervene militarily in other countries, but they 427 00:33:49,079 --> 00:33:52,640 don't want to intervene uh politically in our own institutions at home. It's just 428 00:33:54,119 --> 00:34:00,519 that whole faction of the of the Republican Party deserves to be buried in salted 429 00:34:00,599 --> 00:34:04,960 over for good. That just is not going to cut it anymore. Well, 430 00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:07,960 and as recently as ten years ago, that was really the mainstream, 431 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,440 and we look at the Republican Party's autopsy in twenty twelve, this is very 432 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:15,679 much mainstream here in Washington, DC. It was absolutely the winning the day 433 00:34:15,679 --> 00:34:22,039 in the Republican Party, and actually to suggest otherwise would have been incredibly contrarian. 434 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,119 And so I guess on that, like, that's where I want to 435 00:34:25,159 --> 00:34:29,599 ask, why do you think it is that you stepped in with fresh perspective 436 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:36,440 and and part helped rebrand some of these conversations, like very staid attacks on 437 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:38,679 the left and the cultural left in particularly the conservative movement has sort of been 438 00:34:38,679 --> 00:34:43,559 attached to, but wasn't winning with Well, why do you think just on 439 00:34:43,599 --> 00:34:46,760 a personal level, you had fresh perspective that sort of moved the ball forward. 440 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:52,679 Yeah, I mean, certainly up for others to decide, but I 441 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,679 would say venture a personal guest. I think a lot of it has to 442 00:34:54,679 --> 00:34:59,400 do with the fact that, you know, I am as a younger person, 443 00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:01,360 I was on the left, so I know how how they think. 444 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,840 I know the ideas, I know the weaknesses. I've lived in those kind 445 00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:09,559 of environments for a long time. And then also, my background is not 446 00:35:09,639 --> 00:35:15,760 the traditional you know, um you know, you know Washington intern background, 447 00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,880 you know road tie, you know, you know, country club background. 448 00:35:20,360 --> 00:35:24,719 I actually worked as a documentary filmmaker for many years and developed some storytelling skills, 449 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:30,760 narrative skills, language skills that were kind of wildly different than what you'd 450 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:35,000 get in a you know, Republican staffer, you know, break room. 451 00:35:35,039 --> 00:35:37,599 And I think that those those those messages and stories and narratives that I was 452 00:35:37,639 --> 00:35:44,320 able to build the last few years, were able to scramble the left defenses, 453 00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:51,760 really get behind enemy lines and then land some really vicious blows against their 454 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,119 their ideology, against their institutions in a way that they were not prepared to 455 00:35:55,239 --> 00:36:00,280 counter because no one had come at them in that manner. Yeah, and 456 00:36:00,679 --> 00:36:05,239 I think Ryan, after reading the book, was surprised at how fluently you 457 00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,639 speak the language of the Left. And that's incredibly important because they have I 458 00:36:09,679 --> 00:36:13,400 mean, it is a different language. And on that note, I actually 459 00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:17,760 wanted to ask you about queer theory because there's sort of a the left of 460 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:22,519 somewhat baffled or the center somewhat baffled right now, and how the tea being 461 00:36:22,559 --> 00:36:28,800 attached to the LGB suddenly seems to have initiated backlash to just Pride as talk 462 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:32,440 about a brand. The brand of Pride, which was pretty popular with Americans 463 00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:37,480 has suddenly become controversial again, and that seems to be thanks in large part 464 00:36:37,519 --> 00:36:42,440 to the tea. A lot of people might wonder how CRT and queer theory 465 00:36:42,599 --> 00:36:45,519 are connected. You were just talking about pornography. People might wonder how CRT 466 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,920 and Marx and Marcus are are related, but actually they really are you right 467 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,760 about it? CRT as the sort of uber discipline. What is what is 468 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:59,960 the influence of queer theory and how is it attached to this kind of broader 469 00:37:00,079 --> 00:37:06,079 issue of CRT. Yeah, it's it's it's actually a really interesting intellectual history, 470 00:37:06,119 --> 00:37:10,920 and queer theory and critical race theory emerge on parallel tracks. Their origins 471 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:15,639 are not they don't share the same origins. They're they're the kind of intellectual 472 00:37:15,679 --> 00:37:20,719 children of different lineages, but they've managed to come into this coalition. Of 473 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,159 course, and the coalition for the left is race and sex. Both are 474 00:37:24,159 --> 00:37:28,960 the two big issues. So critical race theory and queer theory have become the 475 00:37:29,039 --> 00:37:35,039 dominant ideologies on those two axes. And sometimes it works together, sometimes it's 476 00:37:35,119 --> 00:37:39,719 at odds or in contradiction. And I think that queer theory comes more from 477 00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:45,840 the postmodern vein. That's very clear in their literature, um and and queer 478 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:54,000 theory is more interested in transgression, is interested in in violating sexual norms. 479 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:59,679 Yeah, oh yeah, I mean it's all fuco and and so that's when 480 00:37:59,679 --> 00:38:02,360 you get things like quite different. You know, Andrew Sullivan when he was 481 00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:07,599 fighting for gay marriage, a lot of different opinions about it, but his 482 00:38:07,719 --> 00:38:13,960 argument was, well, you know, gay couples want to assimilate to middle 483 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:19,239 class bourgeois norms and have the same civil protections as everyone else. I think 484 00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:22,280 that is, you know, turn out to be with some kind of legal 485 00:38:22,320 --> 00:38:27,119 maneuvering and Supreme Court decisions or interventions, depending on how you look at it, 486 00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:31,840 fairly persuasive to people. But then you have the kind of queer theory 487 00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:35,320 camp that comes in and they says, yeah, but what we really want 488 00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:40,159 to do is kind of create schools, turn schools into you know, quote 489 00:38:40,199 --> 00:38:46,639 unquote queer spaces, and to explore queer sexualities and to provide students with new 490 00:38:47,039 --> 00:38:53,000 gender pronouns and and boutique sexualities, and then to share books like this book 491 00:38:53,079 --> 00:38:58,039 is Gay that teaches them how to use gay sex apps, or gender Queer 492 00:38:58,039 --> 00:39:02,400 which depicts, you know, of pedophilia and explicit sex. And and then 493 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,880 some parents are saying, hey, wait a minute. You know, I 494 00:39:05,960 --> 00:39:09,000 know that you know, Tim and Bob are the you know, the married 495 00:39:09,039 --> 00:39:12,719 couple that live next door. They seem to be, you know, doing 496 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,559 fine, not not hurting anyone. But why is you know, my my 497 00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:21,280 child elementary school teacher now suddenly, you know, bringing pornography into the classroom. 498 00:39:21,079 --> 00:39:23,400 Um. And that's that raises a lot of questions that I think activists, 499 00:39:23,599 --> 00:39:29,239 even on the left, UM, have tried to avoid answering. But 500 00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,519 I think eventually they're going to have to start answering, um, what is 501 00:39:31,519 --> 00:39:36,239 the relationship between all those two things? And that'll be a very interesting conversation 502 00:39:36,559 --> 00:39:39,159 once it gets started. My last question for you Chris Is, if you 503 00:39:39,239 --> 00:39:44,800 were sitting with Nicky Haley and explaining to her, Um, you know, 504 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:50,119 you're trying to take this academic argument and take it to somebody who frankly wants 505 00:39:50,119 --> 00:39:52,920 to win elections. Nicki Haley, Tim Scott, they want to win elections. 506 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,639 Goverbd Asa Hutchinson wants to win elections, and they're, you know, 507 00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,400 actually using a really outdated way of talking about this that's both morally wrong but 508 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:06,599 also politically disadvantageous. So if you had to explain to them, this is 509 00:40:06,599 --> 00:40:08,119 what I think Ron des Stantis really gets. He understands the stakes, he 510 00:40:08,199 --> 00:40:12,920 understands exactly what you just explained, that these are connected. But if you 511 00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,360 had to explain to Nicki Haley why you can't out identity the left based on 512 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:21,920 this, let's just say, the argument of the book itself and the work 513 00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:25,280 that you've done, what would you tell her to convince her that she's wrong 514 00:40:27,639 --> 00:40:30,440 both. I mean, I think that would be a very difficult job, 515 00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:36,079 given how committed she is to that that way of framing things. And I 516 00:40:36,079 --> 00:40:42,440 think what I would explain to her is that rhetorically, I mean substantively, 517 00:40:42,599 --> 00:40:45,159 I could explain to her all day why it's a mistake in position. But 518 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:50,840 even just rhetorically calculating in partisan political benefit or immediate political benefit, I could 519 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:54,559 say, you know what, there's maybe an immediate gratification to deploying that kind 520 00:40:54,599 --> 00:41:00,280 of rhetoric, but you're never going to actually win with that kind of hic 521 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:05,000 And so you have to actually go higher than your opponents. You have to 522 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:09,199 take the moral ground that is above the framing that they offer. And and 523 00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:14,239 do you want to be the kind of person that is given a set of 524 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,440 ideas by your enemies and then tries to defeat them with those ideas, or 525 00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:21,760 do you want to have a set of ideas that is so far above how 526 00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:25,760 they're thinking that that if you reframe the debate on that higher ground, you 527 00:41:25,800 --> 00:41:30,400 will inevitably destroy them. Um, you know, I think, you know. 528 00:41:30,519 --> 00:41:36,199 I mean maybe then you'd also have to maybe hypnotizer and keep program the 529 00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,119 Reagan brain or I don't know what it is, but I got to be 530 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:43,400 hard. I would maybe bring in some kind of you know, some expert 531 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,639 psychologists to help, But but that's kind of the basic for ust of what 532 00:41:45,679 --> 00:41:49,599 I would try to explain. I was gonna say, you would probably have 533 00:41:49,639 --> 00:41:52,400 to promise that if she gives up the identity politics, we can invade a 534 00:41:52,440 --> 00:42:00,800 country. We will give you one invasion Canada. Yeah, exactly. Actually 535 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:02,320 I was I had to do one more quick question for you, and I 536 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:07,119 suspect this one will be really quick. I'm sure. I know you've worked 537 00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:10,440 with a lot of Republican lawmakers. I am just have this morbid curiosity right 538 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:15,280 now to know if any Democrats, as you've become more and more high profile, 539 00:42:15,679 --> 00:42:21,039 have reached out any elected Democrats, democratic candidates, democratic organizations have reached 540 00:42:21,039 --> 00:42:23,360 out to sort of talk through some of this and get your advice on any 541 00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:28,800 of it at all. No, unfortunately, No, I've had many individual 542 00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,039 Democrats, right I reach out, of course, say hey, I'm a 543 00:42:31,079 --> 00:42:35,280 Democrat, but this stuff is just out of you know, out of out 544 00:42:35,280 --> 00:42:38,599 of control, um. But institutionally I have not you know, my my 545 00:42:38,599 --> 00:42:43,159 my door is open. I would love to talk to Democrats, but we're 546 00:42:43,199 --> 00:42:49,760 just in a very um polarized political, uh and institutional setup right now. 547 00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,079 So UM, I don't worry about it. It's like, you know, 548 00:42:52,480 --> 00:42:57,360 we need to win where we can win using the methods and and coalitions we 549 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,280 have available. But I'm certainly open to that and if you have any any 550 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:07,079 recommendations. Absolutely. Chris Rubo is the author of the new book America's Cultural 551 00:43:07,119 --> 00:43:09,519 Revolution, How the Radical Left Conquered Everything. It's out now. You should 552 00:43:09,559 --> 00:43:13,960 absolutely buy it. It's a great read. He's also with the Manhattan Institute. 553 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,679 You can follow his work there. Chris, thank you so much for 554 00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:20,639 joining the show. Thank you so much. You've been listening to another edition 555 00:43:20,679 --> 00:43:22,559 of The Federalist Radio Hour. I'm Emil Jasinski, culture editor here at the 556 00:43:22,559 --> 00:43:25,360 Federalist. We'll be back soon with more. Until then, the lovers of 557 00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:28,320 freedom and anxious for the Fray