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In the space. All right,
what's up everybody. We've got our good

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buddy, David Patrick Carey, Church
of the Eternal Logos, joins me tonight

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to do this sponsored stream. Shout
out to our bro AC for this collab

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sponsored stream. We're going to be
getting into the philosophy and the thought of

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Professor John Vervake, and a lot
of this is very new to me,

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so I've been diving into it this
week. I have had a chance to

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get pretty deep into his podcasts,
and David sent me one of his papers

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that he's recently written about non being
and neoplatonism. So we're going to talk

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about some of that. We're also
going to talk about how it relates to

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transhumanism. And before we get all
the tell all that though, I want

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David to give us kind of his
background story about how he thinks all of

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this became really popular in the last
five, six, seven years, because

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I think his his track of the
events and how they occurred as a really

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good summation of how we got to
this point of what Verveiki calls the meaning

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crisis, and how key figures like
you know, Trump and Jordan Peterson,

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you know, played a big role
in that, So thank you for coming

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on, David, and tell us
how you think this came to be so

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popular. This is tied with the
Jordan Peterson phenomenon, which is really inescapable.

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When you start getting into these conversations
about meaning and even masculinity, we

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see the rise of the manosphere.
That was the last one we did,

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was talking about the manosphere stuff.
And so in twenty sixteen especially, we

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can see this massive transformation and what
exactly is the counterculture with the Donald Trump

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phenomenon. So twenty fifteen he goes
down the escalator. He's now running for

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president and right around the time Jordan
Peterson resists, was at bill C sixteen

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in Canada. That was demanding people
talk about pronouns and recognizing people's pronouns.

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This was, you know, going
all over social media. And then I

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think a few months later he's brought
on Joe Rogan and that's when Jordan Peterson

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emerges as Jordan Peterson. Meanwhile,
he had been posting videos for years up

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to that point, and he had
had multiple conversations with Jean Verbaki, both

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of which are professors at Toronto,
the University of Toronto. And so this

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meaning crisis or this Jordan Peterson phenomenon
post twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen nineteen.

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It's this huge phenomenon of people now
looking at symbolic understandings, dealing with meaning,

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recognizing this nihilism in the Western world. And I think that's why Jordan

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Peterson was so appealing for young men, is that one he's justifying much of

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the problems and concerns they have with
the contemporary world. But he's also then

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talking about meaning and what it means
to be a man and putting your life

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together, finding purpose, and so
John Vervaki and him have had multiple conversations.

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I was always more knowledgeable of the
Peterson phenomenon, but through AC in

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the last like six months have got
me watching and reading more of Vervaiki,

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and it's really interesting to see how
their projects overlap. Verveak, I think

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his is much more explicit in regarding
the building of a religion of tomorrow,

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which he literally is explicit about in
some of his dreams. Jordan Peterson,

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unlike Verveake, is much more focused
on this utilization of Christian symbolism, the

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Bible and this type of thing,
and that's what I think gave young men

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a new perspective on Western culture,
Christian heritage, Christian values, and allowed

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young men to sort of have a
new identity and in recognition to this meaningst

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crisis, where what exactly are you
standing up for as a Western man per

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se. So I think that that
generally lays out how this phenomenon emerged.

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We see Pagio really blew up through
Peterson, and then the manosphere has always

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existed and they've been blogging for you
know, the last like fifteen years,

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but I would say the manosphere has
dramatically increased again due to the Jordan Peterson

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phenomenon. Yeah, it seems like
the Peterson kind of prepped the way for

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Manosphere and then it kind of took
on a life of its own because like

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there's old Canadian TV access like that. You can find interviews of Peterson where

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he's saying stuff, you know,
kind of men's rights, migtile even ish

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type stuff way back a long time
ago, maybe even fifteen fifteen, sixteen

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years ago. So I'm not saying
that necessarily it was intentional. I'm just

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saying that Peterson, you know,
sort of blows up and then what was

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there was already a manosphere, but
it kind of like allowed the manosphere to

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speak even louder and kind of go
off into its own directions of in cell

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migtel, red pill, you know, all of those different variations and schisms

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that it went into. But yeah, and so so Verveki as an academic

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then appears to kind of bring the
bridge maybe to Eastern philosophy into a lot

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of I mean, I don't know
that he's I'm not accusing him of being

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a new Ager, but as I
listened to the podcast, it's obviously very

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you know, Buddhist centric, it's
very focused on a lot of far Eastern

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philosophy. So maybe that's the bridge
to you know, Oriental philosophy perhaps through

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Vervaki. Right well, and at
a philosophical level, Verveki clearly his number

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one spiritual foundation right now is neo
Platonism, right, and he uses that

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to have one foot into the Christian
world. Talks a lot about Christian neil

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Platonists, but I think that appeals
to that that monism of neil Platonism appeals

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to the Eastern mystical mind. And
so whether he's talking about Proclus or whatever,

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Neil Platonic thinker He's very much interested
in sort of the apaphatic nature of

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God and tying this into this no
thingness or this nothingness within Eastern mysticism and

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trying to highlight well, these are
different understandings, are sort of saying the

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same thing. But the West isn't
equipped with facing the nothingness. And so

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this is where he would give credit
to Nietzsche for recognizing the neihilism that was

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approaching of Western society. But then
he refers back to this sort of Buddhist

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scholar Nishanti about that the West doesn't
have the philosophical tools to face the nothingness,

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and this is what his project is
trying to do is prepare people to

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face and confront this and this is
sort of a phenomenological, psychological, spiritual

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development of oneself and how they can
move into this new future state where you've

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confronted the nihilism of the world,
but now you're finding deeper meaning. And

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this is basically his response to this
meaning crisis. Well, before that's before

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we get to that, because I
do have a lot I want to say

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on that topic, because I'm noticing
us in going through his podcast that that

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I think what's going on here is
that he sees himself as a kind of

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shaman that will be the person or
could be a person or one of the

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key figures that functions as one of
these turning point figures. He uses his

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term quite a bit in I think
the third or fourth episode of the Christis

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Meaning podcast where he talks about the
turning points. He was a lot of

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emphasis, for example, on the
transition of the ancient world into the period

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when writing developed and this was a
turning point. And then then we get

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the period of like you know,
the end of the Paleolithic era, when

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we get you know, weapons and
tools and things being invented, and these

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are turning points. And then he
talks about how we got to get into

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some of the terminology that he uses
because it's really important axaptation, and this

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is an idea from biology where he
sees the evolutionary model basically taking on a

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new tool and then that member of
the species adapts that tool, and typically

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it's something biological, like a mutation, but he's saying no, it can

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also be a mental thing where we
adapt something, we take on this new

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tool set, and this can then
allow a new phase of reality, a

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new phase of civilization, or whatever. One of those adaptations or one of

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these tools that he talks about is
writing and abstract thinking. So he does

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a lot of it, has a
lot of discussion of that. But just

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on the on the account of his
his approach to the ancient world, I

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immediately noticed a lot of crawl young. He admits this too, because he

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says, look the ancient world.
He says, why do you think of

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You know, when you think about
the ancient world, you only think of

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like Greeks or the Egyptians. Maybe, he says, you don't think back

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to beyond that, and you don't
think too like Babylon. You don't think

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to that. Why is that?
And he says, because you're kind of

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conditioned to think of certain cultures in
the ancient world as the ones that you're

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supposed to look to. But maybe
even older cultures had this remnant notion of

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the golden age of the gods,
or the primeval world or the you know,

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the Elysian fields, this super perfect
state that we want to try to

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get back into because the gods have
that more powerful status, that's where they're

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coming out of. We've gotten into
some lower state of consciousness, and so

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we want to try to engage in
projects, or he even calls them psychotechnologies,

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and he thinks of the shaman as
kind of like the essential psycho technician,

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right, which is able to get
back into that's primal state, but

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in the here and the now.
So do you have any comments on that?

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No, I think that's exactly part
of his project. And the shaman

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is perfect because he's again this whole
project is both abstract but then imminent.

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And so the utilization of these psychedelics
allows the shaman to go into these spiritual

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realms to find deeper meaning in the
lived experience of reality. It's communal,

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he acts within a community, and
so all these things are working with his

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general project. So yeah, I
totally see the exact same things. And

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the shaman, generally speaking we've seen
in these alternative forms of spirituality, is

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an idealized figure. You actually read
some of Eliod's stuff on shamanism and the

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archaic techniques of ecstasy. You know, shaman's practice a wide variety of different

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belief systems, and some of them
are from a Christian perspective objectively demonic and

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evil and what they're doing. You
know, people go down to Peru they

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do their ayahuasca session and the shaman
gets everybody loaded and then he starts trying

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to rape the women or something like
This isn't totally unheard of, but the

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WES has developed these really idealized frameworks
for the shaman as being this prototypical tribal

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man that heals that's there for the
collective and then he can go into these

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altered states of consciousness and find deeper
meanings of patterns and understandings and art and

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beauty and bring that back to the
people. And this has been reiterated,

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whether it be McKenna Leary, Robert
Anton Wilson, as something of an ideal

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figure for the twenty first century.
This is the spiritual seeker in the twenty

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first century. This is what we
should aspire to. Yeah. I don't

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mean this in a rude way,
but it just my first thought, honestly

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when I hear a lot of this
stuff is like, this is what you

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know. This is like the Boomer
type of you know, counterculture idea.

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This is what a Boomer thinks is
deep because in the nineteen sixties they were

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inundated with LSD, you know,
experimentation with hallucigens. The beatles, transital

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meditation and all this sort of you
know, grateful dead type stuff. And

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so it's a lot of verbiage and
things that people think is extremely super deep,

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but when you actually start digging into
it, it's it's not that deep.

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And I'm not saying that Vervaiki isn't
an academic I'm just saying that.

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Let me give you one example,
the idea that the shaman somehow has a

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special insight into the next dimension or
spiritual reality, which could be the case,

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but the fact that this occurs throughout
the ancient world in different cultures,

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that therefore that's something we should emulate. And it's like, but why,

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I mean, why should we There's
a lot of things that were kind of

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universal in the ancient world, but
we don't think of them as things that

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we should necessarily emulate. Now.
I know he thinks he has arguments that

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well, but the shaman perceives,
you know, and he sees things in

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a way that no one else does
and allows him to have these new technologies.

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But I'm just calling into question the
idea that spirituality is a technology.

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I would take issue with that,
or the hallucinogens are a technology. He

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argues that he is already a cyborg
in that if you're if you're engaging with

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technology, that is the extension of
man, and that is then the that

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is for him, the definition of
a cyborg. And so he would argue

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the book is a technology, writing
is a technology, language is a technology.

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Are ways in which we're already cyborgs. And this is then for a

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later conversation, this is why you
shouldn't fear artificial intelligence and some of the

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stuff where technology is going, because
we're already part of it. Yeah,

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I mean, as we hear that's
a refrain in a lot of the transhumanists.

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I mean, Kurtzwahl argues that I
know you've all Harari makes this argument

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and again, I mean a lot
of what I'm hearing in Vervakian. This

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is not to be rude or overly
critical, but it's sort of like a

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lot of things that kind of on
the surface seem good, sound and solid,

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actually aren't that sound and solid.
Let me give you one example.

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He makes a big to do about
being and if you know philosophy, if

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you know the history of philosophy,
being is one of the most generic and

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debated terms in the history of philosophy. I'm not saying that it's not useful

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and that we can't speak of being, but the problem is that you need

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some kind of metaphysics to do that, to have being. And I know

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that he's, you know, as
you said, gotten into neoplatonism. So

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I'm not trying to knock everything that
he's talking about. But it's like in

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these lectures, as I'm hearing him, you know, talk about being,

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and when he gets into the Buddha, he talks about that the Buddha was

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looking for the being mode versus the
having mode, and it's like, okay,

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modes and modalities. I mean,
this is medieval scholastic philosophy. I

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mean, yet exists in Greek philosophy
too, But it's like when you start

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using modalities and all this kind of
stuff and tying it into I mean,

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that's not it's just not the right
usage. I don't think of the terminology

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for like, being attached to possessions
is having mode having mode, I mean

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versus being mode, which is being
at peace and not wanting possessions. Okay,

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that's not what being in the history
of philosophy is referring to. So

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the terminology is not precise, and
I think there's a lot of you can

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get away with a lot more if
you're not precise in your terminologies. That

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makes sense, Yeah, and he
would. The way he sneaks it in

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is that I would give him total
credit that he's very, very well read.

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I've seen just into his stuff in
preparation. He's referenced books that I've

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read that were totally unrelated to topics
he was talking about. So the guy

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is an avid reader, no doubt, incredibly intelligent, very smart. But

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one of the problems with the language
he uses, and that's what if you

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read him like the article I sent
you, and I've said he's ad obscurantist,

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it means like he uses words,
but it doesn't feel like they're useful

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in a way that they're gaining more
clarity. It's just more abundance, and

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he uses them in different ways that
takes them out of the context. So

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he'll use things like Christian understandings of
theosis and relate this to some Buddhist concept

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of nothingness, which are totally if
you're really going to get detailed, or

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totally different. So when you're talking
about mode and modality for him, then

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he'll use that in a contemporary psychological
way, but then he's also using it

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philosophically. And so he uses all
these words that if you're not familiar with

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academia and some of these stuff,
it just sounds like you're being bombarded with

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all this knowledge. And certainly they're
real references, but there seems to me

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listening to it's like, well,
he's making jumps that don't seem adequate based

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on the words he's using because he's
taken it out of the context in which

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the people that would use those words
and where they come from would mean them

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to be. So it's like absolutely, yeah, I mean, I'm going

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to cut you off if you have
more. Well, that's that's I mean.

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And it's over and over that I
see that happen in his work,

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and well, as we move through
we'll find this in multiple different ways,

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how he uses different words that mean
different things again metanoia, uh, theological

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specific theological terms of orthodoxy and why
orthodoxy because it appeals to his platonic sentiments.

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And then and so he's explicit He's
had Bishop Maximus on who I had

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a conversation with. He's part of
the old Calendar Church, but he is

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a philosopher, and he has been
talking to Vervaiki about participatory versus these propositional

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frames of understanding, and how even
though he's looking for participation, his neoplatonic

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framework is still all propositional exactly,
and that's because it's not relational like Orthodoxy.

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And so he's then, especially since
those conversations, been really focused on

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this sort of relational understanding and using
Christian terminology in Christian theology to describe his

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own project, which is totally divorced
from anything Orthodox. Absolutely, I'm glad

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you brought that up, because almost
forgot that point, which is that there

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is a section in the lecture or
the courses that he's doing on the christ

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of meaning when he gets to the
point where he's talking about ancient Israel and

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Hebrew philosophy and theology, and he
says, one of the interesting things that

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the Hebrews did was bring in this
notion of God as personal, and I

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completely agree with that. Of course, from his vantage point, he says,

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I don't believe in the supernatural.
I'm only a cognitive scientist, so

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I'm only interested in kind of understanding
this project of you know, the history

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of religions from this abstracted viewpoint.
But he made a good point there,

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which is that if ultimate reality is
impersonal and you're absolute, your concrete absolute

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or whatever is this abstract force,
then the universe no longer has purpose,

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It loses teleology, it becomes disteleological, as we say, so you need

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a being with intentionality, that is, you know, the creator, the

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providential governor, and the end,
the alpha and omega of the created order.

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That's what we have in orthodox philosophy
and metaphysics and none of these other

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systems. Even Neoplatonism, it has
a lot of you know, it kind

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of aims at some of those things, but it still doesn't ever get to

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that. And you know, there's
a lot of problems in neoplatonic thought that

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we can go into. But I'm
glad you said that because there's a specific

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point when he says that the introduction
of God as personal is such a huge

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movement, you know, in the
history of religion and in civilization, and

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it's sort of like, yeah,
you're missing that very thing that you pointed

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out right about that if you don't
have the ultimate principle and your metaphysics or

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in your worldview as personal that has
disastrous effects for the rest of you of

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your worldview if God is personal.
And by the way, I know you're

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not saying this, but just to
be clear, to say God is personal

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is not just to say that he's
a relation. So a person is a

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subject, it's an agent. And
if you read there's a really good essay

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that Father Fluorowsky wrote on Christianity and
and Divine Revelation, and he says that

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one of the things that Christianity brought
that was new to the ancient world was

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this notion of personhood and person as
distinct from nature. I mean, persons

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a stantiate nature. But persons are
more than just an instance of nature.

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Persons are subjects that in a way
stand up above or transcend nature itself.

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And that's what makes me the person, Jay, it's what makes you the

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person, David, even though we
share common human nature, where we are

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particularized by the idiomata of personhood.
So I think that's a really important point.

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And if he understood that, I
mean, there's a really good book

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by there's a Romanian guy that wrote
a book on personhood in the Cappadocians and

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his names escaping at the moment.
But I read that a couple of years

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ago, and he's a philosopher,
Orthodox thinker. I think he's Orthodox,

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And the thesis of the book is
basically that you kind of have some close

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parallel of personhood with Aristotle's notion of
agent agent or an individuated subject, but

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it's still not what you get in
Christian philosophy and revelation of personhood, because

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human personhood just grounded in divine person
in Orthodox theology. Ayway, Florofsky's essay

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is really good on that. But
yeah, so, yeah, what do

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you think of that? Yo?
That was my first I have a handful

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of direct criticisms at his entire project
and worldview, and the very first one

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was the incredibly ambiguous reference to God. So and he talks about this,

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that God for him is not personal, and so he may talk about the

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Jews and the Israelites and how this
was a novel development and why it's useful

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in our cognitive understanding of self and
a relationship to transcendence and all this stuff,

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But for him, this really what
he calls the fundamental religious ground of

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being or the ineffable, or I've
seen him refer to it as the spirit

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and as sort of Hegelian understanding of
geist or just pure transcendence. This is

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God for him, but it's totally
ambiguous, and at times it seems like

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he's talking about consciousness, which is
still as undefinable as other times he's talking

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about some like underlying reality, or
at times he's talking about nothingness. And

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that's where he's pulling together all these
different things apathetic philosophy from neo Platonism,

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nothingness in Eastern mysticism of the void
and emptiness shuniata, and then he's using

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constant Orthodox concepts of theosis and how
we are becoming divinied by the confrontation of

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this nothingness. It's just this amalgamation
of all these different things, and that's

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why he has to keep God abstract
because another my third criticism is that it's

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inherently a perennialistic project. It is
partialism. That's exactly what I thought reading

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the neoplatonism essay that he sent,
because he begins by talking about comparisons between

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Porphyry's idea of non being versus what
you know, Kyoto school philosophers think about

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non being or to nothingness or something
like that, and basically, all that

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verbia is means that there's a neoplatonic
idea of non being that has nothing to

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do with like an internal existential moral
collapse of a person or a society.

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It's a metaphysical concept. But then
for the individual, nothingness and nihilism is

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this personal kind of existential collapse that
you might go through when you have trauma

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or something like that. Now the
ideas might be connected, but basically the

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idea is that we need to reorient
ourselves to being prepared to will will ourselves

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towards non being, to will non
being and to will our non our non

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existence or something like this, that
when we confront the nihilism, then we're

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reborn. And this is actually I
think a lot of the a lot of

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Nietzschean philosophers basically just make this point
that you know, there's a guy that's

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gone on a bunch of podcasts.
His name escapes me right now, but

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he's a Nietzschean philosopher, and he
he basically makes the argument that look,

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Nietsche is not your enemy, and
nihilism is actually a philosophy of hope because

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the project of nihilism is hey,
when you realize the end of yourself,

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then you can truly be and all
the systems, then you can truly be

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reborn to create your own meaning.
Right, Yeah and yes, And this

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will get into the meaning crisis in
his project because nihilism is this recognition of

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the meaninglessness and he ties in these
personal narratives. So he talks about how

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narrative is limiting, and this would
probably be maybe a slight criticism he would

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have towards Jordan Peterson. The focus
on symbolism and narrative is that he believes

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that, well, the narratives is
actually entrapping because you have this narrative about

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your life and your story and where
you're going and this is all self created.

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And what you need to do is
again the meaning crisis then is using

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these what he calls transformational modalities spiritual
techniques to begin to root oneself in the

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the reality of being. And this
is then you're confronting of nilism and recognizing

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the no thingness there. And this
is then this this advancement in oneself is

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now now you're sort of advanced and
you're moved forward and now you're more in

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power of the narrative and also the
grounding of reality. Well, let me

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ask you about this, because this
is an area that you're an expert in.

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And you know, as I'm listening
to his to his early talks kind

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of laying out his framework of the
past, he sees the the art.

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He sees the shaman as like this. I mean to me, this is

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an undue reverence for the figure of
the shaman. I mean, I understand

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the shamanic tradition is important to ancient
primal cultures, and and I know they

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have an important role in telling the
myths and giving the myth forms as he

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calls them to the societies. And
but there's this again, this undue adilation

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of like the sh as this this
archite. He even says it is he

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thinks it's one of the archetypes.
So the shaman is one of the archetypes.

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So and what we've lost in society
is the shaman. You know,

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if we can have this, this
meaning maker come back and uh if I

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mean, just at a really basic
level, I'm just thinking, like,

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you know, this is your area
of expertise. Is this really accurate?

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I mean, is the shaman really
I understand he's important to ancient cultures,

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but on what basis. Are we
supposed to assume that that is this you

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know, archetypal thing that we got
to bring back today, and that that

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some sort of shamanic practice is somehow
going to To me, this just sounds

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like the sixties counterculture engineered you know, archaic revival, you know, primitivism

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stuff. And I but why is
that better? Yeah, I agree with

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you. That is his perspective,
and I'll tell you why he goes there

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first. It is an overstatement of
what the shaman does. Yes, the

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shaman primary is oriented towards healing of
the tribe, and he goes into these

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altered states of consciousness. Could be
soberly in regards to doing a sun dance

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in the sun for six hours and
spinning in circles. Maybe that's one way

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he gets into altered conscious Some of
them, many of them use in debraating

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substances in a ritualistic form to get
into altered states in which they can contact

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the spirit world and then gain and
garner information and knowledge that then they can

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repackage and songs or poems or mythology
and this type of thing. And so

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from that perspective, the shaman scene
as this sort of cultural generator. But

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why he's so focused on the shaman
is because in his Meaning Crisis, he's

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explicit that traditional religions and myths have
fallen short for people in twenty first century.

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And so why then he would overvalorize
the shaman is that then we can

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now create new meaning. In the
meaning crisis, you can become your own

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shaman, or at least maybe he
himself is seeing himself in his own project.

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That's a sort of shamanism where he's
going into the altered state and then

359
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bringing these ideas back so that then
he can give them back to the tribe

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so that you can find more meaning
and depth in your own life. He's

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doing that because he's already explicitly rejected
all traditional forms of religion as already have

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run their course. They're done,
there's no reason to turn back to them.

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Therefore, we need to reconstruct something
new. And that's why the shaman

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being brought into the sort of twenty
first century pagan worldview is how then you're

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going to regenerate that sort of cultural
the cultural creator in the shamanic role.

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That makes sense. I had a
professor send me a critique that he wrote

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a paper he wrote critiquing Peterson's project, and his argument was that Peterson's project

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is what he calls an archaeology of
ideas, and the idea is that we

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can go back through the ancient societies, ancient cultures, let's do a lot

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of archaeological digging, kind of a
crawl youngish project, and the purpose of

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that is that we'll create a new
kind of community and society that can give

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this meaning, perhaps in the near
future. Right, So the idea is

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that there might be some projected new
I don't know what they would a quasi

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church, I don't even know what
we would call it, or or some

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sort of intentional community or something like
this. Whether that's where they want to

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go, I'm not sure. I'm
going to ask you about that here in

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a little bit. But I noticed
as he was doing his Ancient Religion's course,

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he didn't explicitly say this, but
he kind of hinted that he thinks

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that the use of hallucinogens or the
shamanic you know, experience, was one

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of these key turning points. It
almost sounded like stone ape theory, like

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like like that this that that oh
once the shaman was really you know,

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like really tripping balls. Then we
got weapons and we got language. Dog

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so like we can like you know, blow some stuff up, we can

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00:32:49.519 --> 00:32:53.000
write some letters, we get do
some cuneiform thanks to tripping balls. But

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I don't actually think that this is
the case. I don't doubt that the

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ancient world utilized rugs. We know
that they did. This is your area

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of expertise. But what I mean, and again he didn't explicitly say stone

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dapate theory, but he kind of
he kind of hinted at it and talked

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kind of tucked around the edges of
it. What are some critiques that you

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would have or maybe maybe you think
that they did operate this way in the

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ancient world. But to me,
it just seems like an assumption that,

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oh, yeah, there was like, you know, a caveman did he

393
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ate some uh, you know,
trip tripping shroom droppings one day and he

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developed the frontal cortex. And then
fast forward a few million years and like

395
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one day a shaman was tripping balls. Then he figured out how to do

396
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you know, hieroglyphics or something right, and that's that's essentially the theory is

397
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that for those who aren't familiar with
the stone date theory that Jay's referring to

398
00:33:46.400 --> 00:33:52.279
is a theory put together by Terrence
and Dennis McKenna back in the seventies due

399
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to their psychedelic journey and the Amazonian
jungle that they came to the realization that

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human have a li was actually tied
to the ingestion of they believe to be

401
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:09.679
psilocybin mushrooms traferia cubensus with which is
a dunge growing mushroom. So they claim,

402
00:34:09.719 --> 00:34:13.679
well, you know there is there
is a drying of the sahara,

403
00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:17.840
and what happened is that the the
arboreal apes that were in the canopies came

404
00:34:17.960 --> 00:34:22.199
down onto the grasslands, and therefore
we're rummaging and searching for food. And

405
00:34:22.599 --> 00:34:28.960
by taking in these mushrooms at small
levels, it would increase visual acuity.

406
00:34:29.480 --> 00:34:39.599
At at higher levels it would increase
because psychedelics trigger a sort of neuralsystem systematic

407
00:34:39.679 --> 00:34:45.559
response where you can become aroused,
you gain energy, nobody takes LSD and

408
00:34:45.599 --> 00:34:51.280
becomes tired that there's a real response
there that oh well, now they'd copulate

409
00:34:51.400 --> 00:34:55.000
more, making it more evolutionary advantageous, and then at higher levels full blown

410
00:34:55.039 --> 00:34:59.440
trips. Now we get language like
you said, the full development of the

411
00:34:59.519 --> 00:35:01.440
neo frontal cortex and all this stuff. The problem with that theory is one

412
00:35:02.079 --> 00:35:07.159
no evolutionary theorist again, and I
have my own problems with mac revolution,

413
00:35:07.360 --> 00:35:12.960
but no evolutionary theorist has actually bought
on and argued that this to be the

414
00:35:13.000 --> 00:35:16.440
case. It's basically become a myth
of the psychedelic spiritual world is that psychedelics

415
00:35:16.480 --> 00:35:20.679
are sort of the key that unlocks
all mysteries. Oh, we have a

416
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:24.159
mystery about how the neofrontal cortex emerged. Well, therefore psychedelics are responsible for

417
00:35:24.280 --> 00:35:30.840
it. And so even the idea
that at small dose of psilocybin increases visual

418
00:35:30.880 --> 00:35:34.159
acuity, you got people can go
back and look at I forget which the

419
00:35:34.280 --> 00:35:37.840
experiment was that Terrence was referring to. But it's in the early nineteen sixties,

420
00:35:37.880 --> 00:35:42.679
and in fact, it does not
insinuate that your visual acuity has increased.

421
00:35:43.719 --> 00:35:49.360
It was that these people noticed when
one these two lines became unparallel,

422
00:35:50.079 --> 00:35:53.320
that people who took psilocybin first noticed
it. That Okay, then now it's

423
00:35:53.519 --> 00:35:58.000
no longer parallel. It was parallel, now it's not. But this does

424
00:35:58.079 --> 00:36:00.440
not insinuate that the visual acuity.
So the entire premise is in a way

425
00:36:00.519 --> 00:36:05.480
been debunked and totally overgeneralized. And
I wouldn't be surprised if a raaki hat

426
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:07.920
buys into that, because his whole
thing is about these sort of I mean,

427
00:36:07.960 --> 00:36:13.119
he's a cognitive scientist. It's all
about these neural models, models,

428
00:36:13.199 --> 00:36:15.800
models, models, everything's about models. And so then for him it would

429
00:36:15.840 --> 00:36:21.840
make sense that if you take high
dose psychedelics, now new cognitive models can

430
00:36:21.880 --> 00:36:25.800
occur. Now, new patterns in
society and behavior can emerge. Yeah.

431
00:36:25.840 --> 00:36:34.480
He thinks that the ritual process the
disruptive practices of the shaman, and that

432
00:36:34.599 --> 00:36:39.559
could include just astic practices like sleep
deprivation or fasting, or the use of

433
00:36:39.599 --> 00:36:45.480
the hallucinogens. Any of these disruptive
activities can cause the altered state of consciousness,

434
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:52.000
which he thinks allows the person to
then develop the new pattern recognition abilities.

435
00:36:52.079 --> 00:36:57.119
Basically is how this works. And
so he sees ritual as playing a

436
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:00.400
key role in this as well.
And the other thing I wanted to mention

437
00:37:00.559 --> 00:37:04.800
is that you made a great point
there that you've got to understand that,

438
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:10.480
as he says, he is seeking
to create a scientific account of enlightenment so

439
00:37:10.599 --> 00:37:15.760
he actually thinks that, like through
cognitive science you can study and learn and

440
00:37:15.880 --> 00:37:24.440
like maybe even create the enlightenment that
occurs in religious situations. Now what is

441
00:37:24.480 --> 00:37:28.039
it that? And I'm not accusing
him of doing this, I'm just saying

442
00:37:28.119 --> 00:37:30.440
that this reminds me of a lot
of the people that we've read over here

443
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:37.360
in my sphere, the MK ultra
doctors, for example, you and Cameron

444
00:37:37.079 --> 00:37:44.760
Gordon Wasson, you know, jose
Dolgado, a lot of the other doctor

445
00:37:44.800 --> 00:37:47.320
Sidney Gottlieb, doctor Jollian West.
I mean, a lot of these guys

446
00:37:47.360 --> 00:37:54.159
were pioneering very similar ideas that we
could study the effects of the entheogens and

447
00:37:54.360 --> 00:38:00.440
even the synthetic versions with Hoffmann's you
know, synthesized LSD, study those effects

448
00:38:00.480 --> 00:38:05.559
and then figure out could we perhaps
tool an engineer a new religion. And

449
00:38:05.760 --> 00:38:07.880
we're gonna be covering some of the
papers related to this, White papers,

450
00:38:08.320 --> 00:38:14.280
particularly the most famous white paper,
Changing Image as a Man, which has

451
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:19.000
a lot of these Stanford research people
that were involved in it, including Joseph

452
00:38:19.039 --> 00:38:22.360
Campbell was even involved in this in
the Changing Images of Van Paper. It's

453
00:38:22.360 --> 00:38:28.800
not all about LSD, but it
is about the establishment studying transformative turning point

454
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:34.519
periods in cultures. And if you
agree with the thesis that the sixties counterculture

455
00:38:34.599 --> 00:38:38.199
was largely a top down Stanford research
Tavistock style thing, which I believe,

456
00:38:38.679 --> 00:38:44.320
then it actually makes sense that a
lot of what I'm hearing in Rivaiki mirrors

457
00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:46.159
a lot of what I read in
Huxley. Huxley says a lot of the

458
00:38:46.199 --> 00:38:51.280
same stuff, right, Yeah,
And I would say he's part of the

459
00:38:51.360 --> 00:38:54.559
same agenda. He's part of the
same overall generational project. Whether he's conscious

460
00:38:54.599 --> 00:39:00.239
of that or not, it's part
of it. But he's also then recognizing,

461
00:39:00.960 --> 00:39:05.400
and this is why I think it's
so appealing. He's recognizing the postmodern

462
00:39:05.440 --> 00:39:09.000
turn, why this is terrible nominalism, why this is a detriment for Western

463
00:39:09.119 --> 00:39:16.559
culture. And so he's accurately criticizing
the problems with academia, with contemporary philosophy,

464
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:22.760
with the sort of post modern,
post truth worlds that we live in.

465
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.000
But then what he's replacing that with
is saying, well, how we're

466
00:39:25.039 --> 00:39:32.440
going to course correct is really just
this perennialistic finding new methods and new transformative

467
00:39:32.519 --> 00:39:38.880
modalities so that you can recognize meaning
in yourself and become a sort of agent

468
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:44.880
in the world. And so we
can get into some of the details there,

469
00:39:45.000 --> 00:39:50.960
but it's tied to and this is
he's explicit is that his project is

470
00:39:51.000 --> 00:39:53.679
what he calls transcendent naturalism. And
this is the if you had to say,

471
00:39:53.679 --> 00:39:58.719
the philosophical core of what he calls
the Religion of Tomorrow. So it's

472
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:04.760
transcendent, but it's only transcendent due
to investigations through naturalistic methods. And so

473
00:40:05.639 --> 00:40:07.800
this is where you know, we
perform the tag argument and stuff like this

474
00:40:08.480 --> 00:40:12.480
due to apologetics, and he would
say, well, you know, I

475
00:40:12.519 --> 00:40:15.519
don't need to presuppose all that stuff. It's just it's sort of self given.

476
00:40:15.679 --> 00:40:20.119
And by naturalistic inquiry we can get
to the point where, yeah,

477
00:40:20.239 --> 00:40:27.280
clearly there's a transcendent reality and that
meaning is sprouting from this metaphysical source.

478
00:40:27.960 --> 00:40:30.559
And so it doesn't really matter the
culture, tradition, or religion, and

479
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:35.880
we don't need to get into specifics
of theology, but it's just about meaning

480
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:40.199
and empowerment and dealing with, like
you said, the nihilism of the contemporary

481
00:40:40.239 --> 00:40:45.000
period. So Religion of Tomorrow is
built on what he's called transcendent naturalism,

482
00:40:45.079 --> 00:40:50.480
transcendent naturalism, he expressively says,
is the bridging between science and spirituality through

483
00:40:50.519 --> 00:40:55.719
the through the erection of new narratives. And these new narratives are giving a

484
00:40:55.920 --> 00:41:04.079
mythos to sciences lacks of mythos because
it's so analytically driven, and therefore he

485
00:41:04.199 --> 00:41:07.559
wants to provide a new normative understanding
of the good, the true, and

486
00:41:07.639 --> 00:41:12.920
the beautiful and provide science with a
mythos in which it's housed in. So

487
00:41:13.039 --> 00:41:15.000
science is now an arm of the
religion, and so you don't have to

488
00:41:15.039 --> 00:41:21.880
get Yeah, there's another well known
fat witchy woman who proposed this one hundred

489
00:41:21.880 --> 00:41:24.320
plus years ago. Do you know
who I'm talking about? He felt,

490
00:41:24.559 --> 00:41:29.559
Yeah, the felt that science could
be a religion itself with theosophy. So

491
00:41:29.639 --> 00:41:34.000
he's not the first to come up
with this idea. But yeah, so

492
00:41:34.119 --> 00:41:37.719
as I'm listening to him, this
ties perfectly into your points right there.

493
00:41:38.159 --> 00:41:44.599
He makes this statement that in the
studies that he's done of people that have

494
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:51.079
had mystical experiences and particularly psychedelic experiences, transformative experiences, he said they have

495
00:41:51.360 --> 00:41:55.239
many many of them have felt the
need to completely reverse their course of life

496
00:41:55.280 --> 00:42:00.559
and action and to never go back, and that their lives have become inexplicably

497
00:42:00.800 --> 00:42:05.239
better, and he says that this
is a recognizable pattern, maybe not in

498
00:42:05.320 --> 00:42:07.760
everybody, but in many of the
people, that their lives are much better.

499
00:42:08.199 --> 00:42:14.880
So can we basically figure out the
mechanics of this and create recreate this

500
00:42:15.480 --> 00:42:16.880
because we want to make lives better, better, better, And so I

501
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:21.360
keep hearing better and I'm some like, but what does that mean? How

502
00:42:21.400 --> 00:42:23.599
do we know what's the standard of
the value judgments for the betters in these

503
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:29.280
cases? Here? Well, and
this is where he's explicit too, that

504
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:35.840
the religion of Tomorrow and I have
this written down is inherently a rejection of

505
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.199
the naturalistic fallacy. For those listening, the naturalistic fallacy begins with Hume really

506
00:42:39.239 --> 00:42:44.639
talking about the isat distinction and that
you can say what is, but you

507
00:42:44.719 --> 00:42:46.480
can't say what you ought to do
about or what we ought to do.

508
00:42:46.639 --> 00:42:52.159
And he's part of this school in
philosophy, and this where he has multiple

509
00:42:52.159 --> 00:42:58.119
philosophers on his channel talking about this
is that this is basically antiquated Enlightenment thinking.

510
00:42:58.159 --> 00:43:00.079
They would point to Kant and they
would say, yeah, this is

511
00:43:00.159 --> 00:43:05.880
ot distinction, first with Hume,
and then Kant grows upon it with his

512
00:43:06.320 --> 00:43:10.880
analytic and synthetic distinction in that then
we're going to we need to do away

513
00:43:10.920 --> 00:43:15.800
with this basically is that this is
ot that science has run its course.

514
00:43:15.880 --> 00:43:20.480
You can look at the collapse of
logical positivism, and therefore science can't do

515
00:43:20.760 --> 00:43:24.679
science or at least move into this
postmodern world without a new mythos, without

516
00:43:24.719 --> 00:43:30.239
a new like ritualistic practice, without
a new way in which science can still

517
00:43:30.320 --> 00:43:34.159
be a sort of the pursuit of
epistemic knowledge and how we come to know

518
00:43:34.280 --> 00:43:37.480
the world. But now we need
other things because without those things it's insufficient.

519
00:43:40.280 --> 00:43:46.199
Yes, transcendent naturalism, that's interest
because again, I mean I understand

520
00:43:46.320 --> 00:43:54.960
the project of seeing the difficulty of
what Kannt posits with the phenomenon immin distinction

521
00:43:55.760 --> 00:44:01.800
in never being able to answer these
problems with the skepticism that human con basically

522
00:44:01.880 --> 00:44:07.440
set up. But I don't think
these are adequate answers or solutions to those

523
00:44:07.519 --> 00:44:10.559
dilemmas. Right. So a lot
of what trans and arugumentation that we do

524
00:44:10.920 --> 00:44:16.719
actually is is attempting to address that
through arguing for an entire metaphysic or an

525
00:44:16.840 --> 00:44:22.360
entire paradigm that's orthodox Christian paradigm.
But I will give him a point there

526
00:44:22.440 --> 00:44:25.320
for at least seeing there that like, yeah, like, if we're going

527
00:44:25.400 --> 00:44:29.519
to have science and meaning, we've
got to like go back and figure out

528
00:44:29.559 --> 00:44:31.519
how to answer human con So he
gets a point for trying to Yeah,

529
00:44:32.119 --> 00:44:37.320
that's right. I think we both
would agree with him there. But then

530
00:44:37.360 --> 00:44:43.159
the way he goes about it is
that we need again new narratives specifically about

531
00:44:43.239 --> 00:44:45.079
science. And this is why the
AI, this is why what he calls

532
00:44:45.119 --> 00:44:49.440
silicon sages, this is why this
is so important because these are going to

533
00:44:49.480 --> 00:44:53.079
be now the new religious figures,
because now we can build a spiritual ethos

534
00:44:53.320 --> 00:44:58.719
around the practice of the scientific methods. Well, that's what I was going

535
00:44:58.760 --> 00:45:01.079
to say. Yeah, I want
to ask about that because you know,

536
00:45:01.199 --> 00:45:05.920
you and I and Father Deacon and
ani As for example, we oftentimes critique

537
00:45:06.119 --> 00:45:12.000
these approaches. So when people in
philosophy understand big problems, like when people

538
00:45:12.079 --> 00:45:15.599
are studied enough their philosophers enough to
know that, okay, we got to

539
00:45:15.639 --> 00:45:19.800
answer human con right, if we're
going to do this kind of stuff again,

540
00:45:20.199 --> 00:45:23.079
we've got to really deal with the
challenge of human skepticism, you know,

541
00:45:23.480 --> 00:45:28.639
the tossing out of metaphysics and all
that, and so the the answer

542
00:45:28.760 --> 00:45:31.559
that they always go for, which
is just what they're necessarily going to do

543
00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:36.920
because of their autonomous approach to epistemology, is system building. They think,

544
00:45:37.239 --> 00:45:39.199
I'm going to be the guy that
builds the new system. Let me do

545
00:45:39.239 --> 00:45:43.880
an archaeology of ideas, let me
dig through all the ancient world religions and

546
00:45:43.920 --> 00:45:46.320
read a bunch of Carl Young,
I'll build a new system. And they've

547
00:45:46.400 --> 00:45:52.559
overlooked the fact that maybe there's already
a revealed system. Right, maybe revelational

548
00:45:52.599 --> 00:45:57.920
epistemology is the answer to the system
building project that you're trying to do with

549
00:45:58.000 --> 00:46:02.559
your finite human mind, right exactly, Well, he's going to reject any

550
00:46:02.639 --> 00:46:07.119
sort of revelation, sure, and
he's gonna move into this. This is

551
00:46:07.119 --> 00:46:10.760
why he's so focused on what he
calls DialogOS or the diological emphasis of the

552
00:46:10.800 --> 00:46:16.760
philosophical dialectic, and that he believes
that the nature of cognition is dialogical,

553
00:46:17.079 --> 00:46:24.239
meaning cognition is about dialogue with somebody
else of an opposite opinion or a contrary

554
00:46:24.679 --> 00:46:30.119
perspective, and then you sort of
hash things out, and this dialogue moves

555
00:46:30.159 --> 00:46:32.239
you towards a closer and closer understanding, and it's tied to Hegel and so

556
00:46:32.519 --> 00:46:37.840
he firmly believes that he's going to
erect the new system. Right a Lah

557
00:46:37.920 --> 00:46:43.360
Hegel Hegel thought the same thing,
and so he's ironically he's a Heidegarian.

558
00:46:43.800 --> 00:46:46.199
In many ways, he's Hegelian.
This is why the focus on dialectic and

559
00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:51.639
DialogOS so much. He says this
over and over and over because he takes

560
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:59.719
a phenomenological understanding of how then we
should do philosophy and sort of meaning making

561
00:47:00.199 --> 00:47:02.880
and understand that it's all progress.
And so if we're in a Hegelian system

562
00:47:02.920 --> 00:47:07.000
where we are learning about self and
non self, and this is creating a

563
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:13.679
synthesis in the world's the spirit again, this religious ground that's underlying all of

564
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:19.159
reality that's metaphysical is becoming, is
coming into fuller and fuller and uh fruition,

565
00:47:19.360 --> 00:47:22.320
which he believes the digital is.
He firmly believes that the digital realm

566
00:47:23.039 --> 00:47:28.239
is the UH is the pinnacle of
media, and that this is a sort

567
00:47:28.239 --> 00:47:30.760
of the endpoint of media. And
we can we can talk about this in

568
00:47:30.800 --> 00:47:37.320
a bit, but it's all Hegelian. It's about a sort of relational ontology.

569
00:47:37.639 --> 00:47:40.159
That's Hegelian. That leads into a
sort of he doesn't want to be

570
00:47:40.280 --> 00:47:45.119
explicitly utopian, but he's on a
progressive project and this is why, this

571
00:47:45.280 --> 00:47:50.960
is again why he he literally argues
that the Silicon sages that are coming are

572
00:47:51.039 --> 00:47:53.280
going to be more virtuous. He
calls them, can can we can we

573
00:47:53.440 --> 00:47:59.400
program AI to be virtuous? Well, one that questions what is virtue and

574
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:05.519
how we engage in virtue? But
he thinks that you absolutely can program virtue

575
00:48:05.559 --> 00:48:08.360
and that these sages are going to
be He's to a Christian. He says,

576
00:48:08.440 --> 00:48:13.280
Oh, it's going to be more
virtuous than even Jesus Christ, and

577
00:48:14.039 --> 00:48:17.280
it's what are you talking about?
But well, yeah, go ahead.

578
00:48:17.519 --> 00:48:21.719
I just want to make one point
on that, which is that that makes

579
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:25.639
if you believe in a system building
project, the logical extension of that,

580
00:48:27.239 --> 00:48:30.119
the ultimate system would be the AI. Right, So we'll build the AI

581
00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:35.280
that will be the ultimate system building
put and a living system, and you

582
00:48:35.440 --> 00:48:37.079
just redefine what it means to be
alive and to be conscious and to be

583
00:48:37.159 --> 00:48:43.800
living to say that it's just enough
algorithms and binary connections. There's alive and

584
00:48:44.159 --> 00:48:49.719
you and now you've got into why
the transcendental naturalism and the narrative about science

585
00:48:50.159 --> 00:48:54.719
moves straight into AI because now we
can see how science is lifting us out

586
00:48:54.800 --> 00:48:59.559
of our historic malaise and it's moving
us into higher and higher realms. Now

587
00:48:59.639 --> 00:49:05.840
you can build a myth those around
science that is literally mystical. It's mystical

588
00:49:05.920 --> 00:49:09.800
because it's literally bringing you closer to
Heaven due to the erection of these technologies.

589
00:49:10.679 --> 00:49:14.199
And so I don't know if you
have anything to say about that.

590
00:49:14.440 --> 00:49:16.199
Well, I did one thing to
say, which one thing about that is

591
00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:22.400
that it ties into the recent discussion
that I did about dialectical materialism, and

592
00:49:22.679 --> 00:49:27.280
and just for the sake of those
that might be listening and curious, I'm

593
00:49:27.280 --> 00:49:31.119
not trying to toot my horn,
but I did study Hussarle, more so

594
00:49:31.239 --> 00:49:36.199
Hussarle than Heideger. But I did
take, you know, significant classes on

595
00:49:36.320 --> 00:49:39.840
phenomenology in both undergrad and grad school. And I also had quite a bit

596
00:49:40.000 --> 00:49:46.360
on Hegel and process philosophy and all
that. And we have to understand the

597
00:49:46.360 --> 00:49:52.360
importance for Hegel for this situation,
just as much as we understood it for

598
00:49:52.440 --> 00:49:55.199
those of you in the audience for
the Marxism talk that we did, because

599
00:49:55.280 --> 00:50:01.119
Hegel is the ultimate imminentizer, right, So Hegel thinks that God is basically

600
00:50:01.760 --> 00:50:07.599
the world process. History is God
in process, and all of those things

601
00:50:07.639 --> 00:50:13.440
are basically the same thing. The
totality of the world historical is God and

602
00:50:13.639 --> 00:50:17.800
is moving in a process to a
kind of an ultimate Omega point or Tilos,

603
00:50:19.239 --> 00:50:25.679
where all dialectics are transcended and basically
everything becomes self consciousness. So one

604
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:29.559
of the reasons Hegel does that,
and why he thinks that, is that

605
00:50:29.639 --> 00:50:35.039
he's grappling with the older problems from
Presocratics, Plato and Aristotle. One of

606
00:50:35.079 --> 00:50:42.159
those problems is Plato's fixation on the
transcendent and stasis and a lack of a

607
00:50:42.239 --> 00:50:49.400
good account for the process and becoming
of this world. Aristotle offers the four

608
00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:53.440
causes as a way to try to
solve Plato's problem of identity over time,

609
00:50:54.199 --> 00:50:59.400
and then Hegel basically sees himself as
picking up that project, picking up the

610
00:50:59.440 --> 00:51:07.880
neo platon project, and fixing it
with smushing the trinity into the historical and

611
00:51:07.119 --> 00:51:13.599
then making all of reality a diosex
Masian whereby God is all of reality coming

612
00:51:13.679 --> 00:51:16.559
to God consciousness, and you can
see then everybody in the audience why that

613
00:51:16.599 --> 00:51:22.280
would fit very well with transhumanism exactly, and for Bacon's project. That's why

614
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:25.239
if you are familiar with philosophy,
once you get a grasp on what the

615
00:51:25.280 --> 00:51:30.239
heck he's talking about, you can
see the Hegelianism built into the package.

616
00:51:31.199 --> 00:51:35.079
If you're not familiar with it,
you can be sort of swept away because

617
00:51:35.119 --> 00:51:37.800
there's so much that he says when
you do watch him, there's so much

618
00:51:37.880 --> 00:51:39.719
going on that if you're not familiar
with that stuff, you may catch Oh,

619
00:51:39.840 --> 00:51:45.880
he's just building on a framework that's
already existent within philosophy, but he

620
00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:50.119
wants to do away with some of
the Enlightenment presuppositions in favor of a new

621
00:51:50.199 --> 00:51:53.079
twenty first century understanding of this sort
of process theology, if you will,

622
00:51:54.480 --> 00:51:59.559
so the meaning crisis, then,
as he disposially says, that traditional religions

623
00:51:59.559 --> 00:52:06.400
have fallen short. They're no longer
providing their adequate meaning in the contemporary period,

624
00:52:06.679 --> 00:52:09.519
and therefore the progress of science and
technology can fill the void. And

625
00:52:09.639 --> 00:52:15.000
he says that digital media, and
this is one of the recent conversations that

626
00:52:15.079 --> 00:52:19.880
Ac sent me of his digital media
is the embodiment of the platonic form of

627
00:52:20.000 --> 00:52:22.880
all media. It's the final stage. So now we can already see a

628
00:52:23.000 --> 00:52:28.760
te los He talked about an attractor. So this ambiguous god is now pulling

629
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:34.480
things from the future. There's a
te lose there, and that the digital

630
00:52:34.559 --> 00:52:38.159
breaks down the dialectics for Verveaki,
he says that it breaks down the dialectic

631
00:52:38.239 --> 00:52:43.840
of Plato and Aristotle because digital media
and the internet takes the ideal forms and

632
00:52:43.920 --> 00:52:47.159
now it's embodied, so now it's
Aristotelian and Platonic. He says. It

633
00:52:47.239 --> 00:52:52.480
breaks down the distinction between writing and
speaking, It breaks down the distinction between

634
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:55.639
public and private, and it breaks
down the distinction between intelligence and medium.

635
00:52:57.199 --> 00:52:59.440
And so now you can see it. Well, you're breaking down the difference

636
00:52:59.480 --> 00:53:02.519
between intelli leigence and medium. You
can see while and how they divide intelligence

637
00:53:02.519 --> 00:53:07.280
as as pattern recognition. Yeah,
why he's going to then begin to think

638
00:53:07.320 --> 00:53:12.519
that we can begin to worship ais
as silicons ages. Yeah, so no

639
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:16.400
account of individual agency and personhood.
Right, Any philosophies that don't have an

640
00:53:16.440 --> 00:53:22.519
account of the personhood and are going
to have some sort of reductionistic model or

641
00:53:22.840 --> 00:53:27.119
account for what consciousness is or what
the self is, or they won't have

642
00:53:27.159 --> 00:53:31.360
any account at all. But one
of the advantages of the model of reductionistic

643
00:53:31.480 --> 00:53:37.480
views of consciousness or emergent property consciousness, whatever, is that they can also

644
00:53:37.559 --> 00:53:39.800
then turn around and say that all
but you see, computers are no different.

645
00:53:40.119 --> 00:53:45.039
Computers are also therefore primitive conscious beings
or beings that are evolving to be

646
00:53:45.239 --> 00:53:51.480
more sophisticated than us, and so
they will actually count, as you know,

647
00:53:52.079 --> 00:53:55.239
more real or more virtuous because we
can just put in the right moral

648
00:53:55.360 --> 00:54:00.400
calculus from the utilitarianism or something like
that. But yeah, I want to

649
00:54:00.400 --> 00:54:02.719
say that's perfect, because what you
just highlighted is the basis of what is

650
00:54:02.800 --> 00:54:07.440
called four E cognitive science or embodied
cognition, which is the basis of his

651
00:54:07.639 --> 00:54:13.719
entire project. And how this is
coming from the Stanford Encyclopedia philosophy is that

652
00:54:14.960 --> 00:54:21.119
whereas traditional cognitive science is also encompasses
these disciplines neuroscience, psychology, philosophy,

653
00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:24.880
linguistics, robotics, all this stuff, it finds common purpose and a conception

654
00:54:25.039 --> 00:54:30.280
of a mind wedded to computationalism mental
processes, or is our computational processes.

655
00:54:30.480 --> 00:54:37.159
The brain qua computer is the seed
of cognition. So he already views That's

656
00:54:37.159 --> 00:54:40.639
where one of my other things was
we have different anthropologies. The criticism of

657
00:54:40.719 --> 00:54:46.519
Vervaiki is his anthropology, like all
the transhumanism, is that you're just a

658
00:54:46.800 --> 00:54:52.320
mind, and so you are just
your ability, your brain's ability to compute

659
00:54:52.360 --> 00:54:58.400
things. Intelligence is the recognition of
patterns. If that's what the base of

660
00:54:58.440 --> 00:55:01.320
intelligence is, then we can build
algorithms that would recognize patterns way better than

661
00:55:01.360 --> 00:55:05.639
we can recognize patterns. Therefore,
they're going to become syentient and they're become

662
00:55:05.719 --> 00:55:09.280
self aware. But that's all built
on a presupposition of the emergent properties of

663
00:55:09.360 --> 00:55:15.719
mind. Yeah, so now personhood
has collapsed into a faculty, which is

664
00:55:15.880 --> 00:55:20.320
mind. And that's actually the old
apollinarian move. By the way, that's

665
00:55:20.320 --> 00:55:23.480
William lane Craig's view. Openly,
William Lane Craig is a pollinarian. And

666
00:55:23.679 --> 00:55:27.239
so you might say, well,
what does an ancient hersy have to do

667
00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:30.960
with johnber Because it's exact same thing. It's exact same move. Because the

668
00:55:30.039 --> 00:55:37.079
West discarded the notion of the news
and ultimately ended up collapsing person into nature

669
00:55:37.880 --> 00:55:43.039
in the anthropological realm, you're going
to see that reflected in any of these

670
00:55:43.079 --> 00:55:46.559
philosophies or any of these world views
that lack the sort of nuanced, layered

671
00:55:46.960 --> 00:55:52.400
metaphysics that orthodoxy has. Orthodoxy has
the toolkit to make these nuanced distinctions that

672
00:55:52.559 --> 00:55:58.239
these other positions and world religions and
philosophies don't have and don't possess. And

673
00:55:59.000 --> 00:56:01.000
you can't have a one to one
mapping on this is what a lot of

674
00:56:01.000 --> 00:56:05.280
people do. They miss, they
make this mistake, and I'm I see

675
00:56:05.320 --> 00:56:07.199
it. I haven't read a lot
of his stuff. I've just read this

676
00:56:07.280 --> 00:56:12.360
paper and listened to these podcasts,
but I'm seeing another pattern of word concept

677
00:56:12.400 --> 00:56:15.599
fallacy, where there's this assumption that, like you said, uh oh,

678
00:56:16.000 --> 00:56:22.280
you know, when the the liturgical
texts talk about accepting our own death so

679
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:27.039
that we might get past death,
that must mean the same thing as as

680
00:56:27.800 --> 00:56:32.079
accepting nihilism in Nietzsche. And it's
like, no, the Amazon and tripping

681
00:56:32.159 --> 00:56:37.280
in the Amazon when that when the
shaman is put back together after his ritual

682
00:56:37.639 --> 00:56:39.719
dismemberment, that's like theosis and baptism, And it's like, no, that's

683
00:56:39.760 --> 00:56:44.559
those different things. Those are the
same theosis in right, So let me

684
00:56:44.599 --> 00:56:49.119
another great example, right, so
when he talks about I don't know if

685
00:56:49.119 --> 00:56:52.880
he uses the term apatheticism, but
he's he's using the Neoplatonic terminology of the

686
00:56:53.280 --> 00:57:00.199
beyond being, which is aproone beyond
being. An aparone in Plato is not

687
00:57:00.440 --> 00:57:02.679
exactly the same thing as what we
in Orthodox are talking about. That,

688
00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:07.639
so we talk about the divine essence
as aparomee beyond being, but it is

689
00:57:07.800 --> 00:57:14.320
not. It is not a non
existence. It is an existence beyond existence.

690
00:57:15.000 --> 00:57:19.559
Right, It's a being beyond being. So it's not saying that God

691
00:57:19.719 --> 00:57:22.920
doesn't exist or that God is non
being. That's ridiculous, right, That's

692
00:57:22.960 --> 00:57:29.679
not what we're saying. It's saying
that God's essence is in itself unknowable to

693
00:57:29.840 --> 00:57:34.400
creatures and it is beyond being,
not that it equates to non being.

694
00:57:34.519 --> 00:57:37.719
And that's a big that's an important
thing that when I see a lot of

695
00:57:37.760 --> 00:57:40.320
these, you know, perennialist type
essays, which is what that neoplatonic essay

696
00:57:40.400 --> 00:57:45.400
seems to speak to to me,
I see a lot of equating of ideas

697
00:57:45.719 --> 00:57:50.119
between Oh well, when the you
know, it's the same thing that we

698
00:57:50.199 --> 00:57:53.760
see with like traditional Catholics when they
use the or Roman coloics, when they

699
00:57:53.800 --> 00:57:59.679
use the term logos. Logos must
mean the same thing in Aristotle as it

700
00:57:59.760 --> 00:58:04.480
does in uh, you know,
John One, as it means in you

701
00:58:04.559 --> 00:58:08.880
know, the stoics, right right, And and well logos is a perfect

702
00:58:08.920 --> 00:58:14.920
one. Because I watched the stream
with him with another philosopher or psychologist.

703
00:58:15.000 --> 00:58:19.480
I think maybe he's clinical. I'm
not sure, Greg Henriquez, and he

704
00:58:19.639 --> 00:58:22.679
was talking about how their tripart tight
structure, which him and another philosopher and

705
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:27.159
Verveaki all agreed on. Oh yeah, this is great. Logos just equals

706
00:58:27.199 --> 00:58:30.440
a pistemology. So when they mean
when they so when their conversations trying to

707
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:35.199
explain their words, well, logos
logos for us that that's just epistemology.

708
00:58:36.039 --> 00:58:43.119
Pathos is embodied experience, and mythos
is your narrative towards transcendence. And this

709
00:58:43.320 --> 00:58:46.039
is and this is their sort of
their tripartite framework. But again you see

710
00:58:46.079 --> 00:58:51.360
they're taking words, redefining them out
of their context. Another one I watched

711
00:58:51.400 --> 00:58:53.480
a video where he was he was
asked whether he believed in evil or not,

712
00:58:53.559 --> 00:58:57.079
and he said, well, it
depends on what you mean. And

713
00:58:57.239 --> 00:59:00.320
he said, uh, you know, evil the way that he just Grider

714
00:59:00.360 --> 00:59:06.159
wrote it down is a black hole
in being, but no thingness is the

715
00:59:06.280 --> 00:59:12.840
positive side of it. The black
hole in metaphysics and being is what he

716
00:59:12.960 --> 00:59:15.000
considers evil. And he says,
yeah, I'm just like Augustine because he

717
00:59:15.079 --> 00:59:21.440
said evil's a privation and I'm thinking, no, dude, like Christian privation

718
00:59:21.599 --> 00:59:25.159
of evil, meaning that evil has
a negative ontological existence, is not the

719
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:29.840
same thing that you just described as
from a black Ye know, Peterson makes

720
00:59:29.880 --> 00:59:37.199
the same mistake in his lectures where
he equates evil as privation with evil as

721
00:59:37.480 --> 00:59:42.960
a moral act against the good or
against the divine law. He collapses these

722
00:59:43.039 --> 00:59:47.519
two because I mean, in the
case of Peterson, if you get deep

723
00:59:47.559 --> 00:59:52.880
into the lectures, you realize that
he wants to do a lot of what

724
00:59:52.000 --> 00:59:57.360
metaphysics is doing without metaphysics. So
he wants to talk about these things in

725
00:59:57.440 --> 01:00:02.320
a psychological way that avoids any question
their metaphysical ontological status because they don't want

726
01:00:02.360 --> 01:00:07.119
to take an affirmative position. Well
because and what would undo the whole project,

727
01:00:07.360 --> 01:00:12.400
uh for So basically they're saying that
don't listen to the theologians, listen

728
01:00:12.440 --> 01:00:15.199
to the psychologists, because we're the
real theologians, is what. That's what

729
01:00:15.400 --> 01:00:20.559
this project in the case, they're
the real theologi. Theology traditional religions is

730
01:00:20.800 --> 01:00:27.239
psycho but this is psychologizing. Is
exactly what Hume and Kant introduced into this

731
01:00:27.320 --> 01:00:31.599
whole affair. Yeah, exactly.
And that's and and that's why they believe

732
01:00:31.679 --> 01:00:37.239
that that's one why his project is
for e cognitive science. Project is all

733
01:00:37.320 --> 01:00:44.199
about phenomenology, neo platonism, Eastern
mysticism, and and then collapsing his rejection

734
01:00:44.360 --> 01:00:49.320
of the naturalistic fallacy, which is
essential so that he doesn't have to say

735
01:00:49.480 --> 01:00:52.199
why something ought to happen. He
claims, well, you know, the

736
01:00:52.280 --> 01:00:55.199
belief, the belief that we believe
truth is even good, is already a

737
01:00:55.280 --> 01:01:00.119
value judgment. Therefore at the fundamental
basis of reality. But both analytic or

738
01:01:00.320 --> 01:01:07.159
ontological facts and normative understandings, these
are all emerging from the same religio ground

739
01:01:07.239 --> 01:01:09.920
of being. Therefore he doesn't need
to justify him because now they're just part

740
01:01:10.039 --> 01:01:15.079
of his framework. And that's where
he's cognitizant that he has to build a

741
01:01:15.119 --> 01:01:19.360
paradigm. So he's very aware that
what he's trying to do with this religion

742
01:01:20.320 --> 01:01:25.280
is provide explanations paradigmatically to form this
sort of religio paradigm. He's saying,

743
01:01:25.480 --> 01:01:29.960
basically, well, just like people
who believe in God, they first presuppose

744
01:01:30.039 --> 01:01:32.679
God, I'm just going to first
presuppose this divine ground of being, and

745
01:01:32.800 --> 01:01:36.079
now I can just say, well, this stuff emerges from here. This

746
01:01:36.199 --> 01:01:38.559
is how this works, is how
it's united. And he's very aware,

747
01:01:38.599 --> 01:01:42.800
he's explicit in that. Yeah,
And in fact, a lot of the

748
01:01:42.960 --> 01:01:47.440
more philosophically adept people that we've had
in discord chats, people come on the

749
01:01:47.519 --> 01:01:52.960
live streams and disagree, you'll often
hear them make a very similar argument to

750
01:01:52.079 --> 01:01:54.119
me, which is, well,
couldn't I just be some kind of a

751
01:01:54.199 --> 01:02:00.159
neoplatonist and say that, you know, these transcendal categories of the presupposition that

752
01:02:00.280 --> 01:02:04.519
you have that ground your metaphysics and
your epistemology and your ethics, it's just

753
01:02:04.679 --> 01:02:08.480
this you know, transcendent realm.
It's just this magical transcendent realm that's out

754
01:02:08.519 --> 01:02:13.360
there. And it's like, well, that's really to misunderstand what it means

755
01:02:13.400 --> 01:02:16.159
to give justification. It's not just
saying that there's this realm. It actually

756
01:02:16.199 --> 01:02:19.840
has to do the work. It's
not just positing it. It's not just

757
01:02:19.920 --> 01:02:22.000
asserting that there's this thing, right, he actually have to you actually have

758
01:02:22.119 --> 01:02:27.119
to make sense of how these different
things are unified. How are you going

759
01:02:27.199 --> 01:02:30.599
to unify these things without a divine
mind? And see, this is the

760
01:02:30.639 --> 01:02:34.639
problem for his system, which if
he starts moving into saying that there is

761
01:02:34.719 --> 01:02:37.039
a divine mind or that there is
what we would say is a form of

762
01:02:37.119 --> 01:02:43.119
divine conceptualism, that would immediately cancel
out a lot of his project because that's

763
01:02:43.239 --> 01:02:49.519
now beginning to give delineators and limitations
and boundaries to the thing that he can't

764
01:02:49.559 --> 01:02:52.000
allow to have limitation and boundaries.
And this is a great point that you're

765
01:02:52.000 --> 01:02:55.760
always making which applies to theology to
which is that a lot of the project

766
01:02:55.880 --> 01:03:00.719
of a lot of these people is
to remove all boundaries. Neoplatonism ultimately can

767
01:03:00.840 --> 01:03:06.159
do that. It's a project which
can attempt to remove all boundaries because the

768
01:03:06.320 --> 01:03:10.079
end goal in the neoplatonic process is
the return to the one, getting away

769
01:03:10.119 --> 01:03:15.159
from multiplicity and returning to pure unity. And to me it sounds like if

770
01:03:15.199 --> 01:03:17.199
he was consistent, I mean,
is that the project here is like ultimately

771
01:03:19.400 --> 01:03:25.719
we're all going to move back towards
uh pure unity. Sometimes it hops out,

772
01:03:25.840 --> 01:03:30.519
so yeah, just I'll let you
back right back on. So gotcha,

773
01:03:30.760 --> 01:03:32.480
you're back on now. So does
that make sense what I'm saying about,

774
01:03:32.639 --> 01:03:39.800
Like a lot of these projects are
basically removing all boundaries. But as

775
01:03:39.840 --> 01:03:44.199
soon as he were if he were
to say something like God is personal or

776
01:03:44.679 --> 01:03:49.119
God has uh, there's a divine
mind which houses the divine ideas or something

777
01:03:49.159 --> 01:03:52.440
like that, now we're moving away
from the Eastern philosophy. And it's pragmatic

778
01:03:52.519 --> 01:03:58.199
usefulness for him with all the ambiguities
and the accepting of contradictions right once,

779
01:03:58.559 --> 01:04:02.280
because no Eastern person with oh God
has a mind, there are divine ideas.

780
01:04:02.960 --> 01:04:05.760
God is no thing, God is
no mind, right, So you

781
01:04:05.880 --> 01:04:11.920
can't have these delineators in theology for
that kind of a philosophy. But at

782
01:04:11.960 --> 01:04:15.559
the same time he needs them to
say ground of being. That's a God

783
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.800
is being, God is grounded being. That's another delineator, that's a boundary.

784
01:04:19.440 --> 01:04:24.199
Yep, exactly. Yeah. And
that's why I think he enjoys neo

785
01:04:24.239 --> 01:04:27.920
Platonism so much, is because,
like you said, it provides this endpoint

786
01:04:27.960 --> 01:04:32.440
of pure unity with monism, which
is the pure dissolution of boundaries. It

787
01:04:32.599 --> 01:04:39.599
provides him a foot into the Western
philosophical tradition to utilize and build upon.

788
01:04:39.679 --> 01:04:45.159
So he's always talking about Christian neil
Platonists and highlighting really heretics within the Christian

789
01:04:45.199 --> 01:04:48.239
tradition, but then he would elevate
them as incredi credible thinkers ahead of their

790
01:04:48.320 --> 01:04:53.800
time. And then it allows him, because of the lack of a personalized

791
01:04:53.840 --> 01:04:58.760
God, to incorporate all this Eastern
mysticism into it as well about no thingness,

792
01:04:59.480 --> 01:05:03.360
and so neo Platonism then allows him
to maintain all the propositional stuff,

793
01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:08.480
so it's much more thought out worldview
than most like New Agers or something like

794
01:05:08.599 --> 01:05:13.960
that. But then it allows him
to also be totally beyond any categories and

795
01:05:14.119 --> 01:05:18.760
beyond any conceptualization of stuff and not
have to make a real solid stance on

796
01:05:18.880 --> 01:05:21.039
what God is or who God is, or how he even came to know

797
01:05:21.159 --> 01:05:27.440
God well, or is this even
a being that can be known? Is

798
01:05:27.480 --> 01:05:30.480
it an even a knowable thing?
Right? I mean, he would argue,

799
01:05:30.679 --> 01:05:32.039
you only know it in your being, And that's where I would think

800
01:05:32.079 --> 01:05:35.480
that's where hegel comes in when you're
talking about the divine mind. I think

801
01:05:35.559 --> 01:05:43.360
he would be very comfortable with like
a divine spirit a guyst a consciousness that's

802
01:05:43.400 --> 01:05:47.400
like working through us that somehow maybe
we're a piece of or not. There

803
01:05:47.519 --> 01:05:53.559
it's we're not the full summation of
this divine transit. Well but yeah,

804
01:05:53.599 --> 01:05:58.239
but at that point it's just what
we're just pantheists or we're just processed philosophy.

805
01:05:58.360 --> 01:06:02.079
Right, So that's exactly what is
is pantheistic process philosophy, uh,

806
01:06:02.320 --> 01:06:09.360
mixed with science and the promotion of
AI and really transhumanist ideals. He'll give

807
01:06:09.440 --> 01:06:13.920
rhetoric as you know, you all
know, a Harari about the warnings of

808
01:06:14.079 --> 01:06:16.440
the future, of the transhumanist future, of what's going to happen, and

809
01:06:16.559 --> 01:06:20.480
yet then in the next sentence talk
about why this is necessary and why this

810
01:06:20.599 --> 01:06:25.559
is what we're getting ready to do. And so I see, I see

811
01:06:25.639 --> 01:06:28.159
much of their projects the same thing. And this is why he wants to

812
01:06:28.239 --> 01:06:33.039
build virtuous AI or what he calls
mentoring the machine, and that we're going

813
01:06:33.119 --> 01:06:38.000
to become they're going to become more
virtuous than humans could ever be. And

814
01:06:38.119 --> 01:06:42.320
he so then he gives recognition to
a historical Jesus, but Jesus was human

815
01:06:42.440 --> 01:06:45.519
guys, Therefore, the the AI
sages are what he calls the silicon sages.

816
01:06:45.760 --> 01:06:50.239
They're going to be more virtuous than
even Jesus could be because it's it's

817
01:06:50.480 --> 01:06:57.480
so, is virtue just equated with
like knowing data? So yes, So

818
01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:00.320
just tally up the amount of data
and out of them that you can process

819
01:07:00.440 --> 01:07:03.719
and that's virtue. I mean,
that was one of my other criticisms.

820
01:07:03.760 --> 01:07:09.079
So we talked about the ambiguity of
God. We talked about the rejection of

821
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:13.159
the naturalistic fallacy, which I don't
think you can do unless you actually had

822
01:07:13.199 --> 01:07:19.960
a real defined God of some sort, and then it's inherently parenthalistic. The

823
01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:28.519
next thing is, what was the
last thing you just said? I lost

824
01:07:28.559 --> 01:07:31.760
my train of thought. Well I
did too, because I was looking up

825
01:07:31.760 --> 01:07:34.400
this book, by the way,
for those that those that were curious in

826
01:07:34.480 --> 01:07:42.239
the chat, it's the book on
Personhood in Gregora nissav I lucian Chescu.

827
01:07:42.440 --> 01:07:44.840
I read that book a couple of
years ago, and I couldn't think of

828
01:07:44.880 --> 01:07:47.039
the name of the author, but
there's the book, and he argues in

829
01:07:47.119 --> 01:07:53.039
there that you know, the Kappa
Docians are really pioneering a biblical idea of

830
01:07:53.159 --> 01:07:58.360
personhood via the triad that you don't
really see in the philosophers, so you

831
01:07:58.440 --> 01:08:02.679
don't get personhood in Aristotle. The
ariosol comes the closest with his notion of

832
01:08:02.719 --> 01:08:08.400
an agent. But but yeah,
I think, uh, I think we

833
01:08:08.480 --> 01:08:16.119
can see the usefulness of neoplatonism for
the project of the one world is right.

834
01:08:16.159 --> 01:08:20.000
I mean, this is why in
the Orthodox sphere, uh, you

835
01:08:20.039 --> 01:08:24.840
know, a lot of the global
elites, you know, the the universities,

836
01:08:24.920 --> 01:08:30.840
the fortums, these schools really push
Originism because Originism is pseudo Christian neoplatonism,

837
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:34.359
and so it's very useful for saying, oh, yeah, Christianity has

838
01:08:34.399 --> 01:08:38.159
got a lot of truth in it. Maybe it's even maybe it's even at

839
01:08:38.239 --> 01:08:42.159
the the you know, top of
the pyramid of the true truth religions.

840
01:08:42.560 --> 01:08:45.960
But all the religions are really expressions
of the same truth and the same reality,

841
01:08:46.039 --> 01:08:50.239
because you see neoplatonism, and neoplatonism
teaches that everything that exists is an

842
01:08:50.279 --> 01:08:55.319
expression of the divine mind. And
you see, so ultimately everything is just

843
01:08:55.399 --> 01:09:00.159
kind of an expression of the one
And so it's very useful not just or

844
01:09:00.199 --> 01:09:04.000
the acumenist project, but also for
the one world or project right. It

845
01:09:04.439 --> 01:09:10.079
harmonizes very well. Again. Huxley
has a book called The perennial philosophy.

846
01:09:11.000 --> 01:09:15.960
I understand that perennialists would not accept
Huxley as a legitimate perennialist. I think

847
01:09:15.000 --> 01:09:18.560
that's all a bunch of nonsense anyway. Who decides who the true perennialist is,

848
01:09:18.800 --> 01:09:21.279
right, Oh, Freedofshan, No, it's renegan On. No,

849
01:09:21.359 --> 01:09:24.920
it's this other weirdo. I mean, it's like, there's no, there's

850
01:09:24.960 --> 01:09:29.600
no authentic like, it's just a
bunch of like really spurgy people who are

851
01:09:29.920 --> 01:09:34.840
taking Sufism in different traditions and saying
that there's this super skeletal religion that all

852
01:09:34.880 --> 01:09:40.359
the other religions are kind of masks
or costumes of. But it doesn't matter

853
01:09:40.399 --> 01:09:43.840
whose. Ultimately, it's just kind
of neoplatonism anyway. So exactly, that's

854
01:09:43.880 --> 01:09:46.159
why it's very useful for this.
I remember the point I was gonna make,

855
01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:49.399
which is again one of the criticisms, was what is virtue? So

856
01:09:49.600 --> 01:09:55.000
it begs the question that he wants
to build these silicon sages and that they

857
01:09:55.119 --> 01:09:58.680
he believes you can program them with
virtue and that they'll be more virtuous than

858
01:09:58.720 --> 01:10:01.640
humans could be. What the hell
is virtue? How can you even define

859
01:10:01.800 --> 01:10:06.159
the programming of virtue, How like, what is it? Well, if

860
01:10:06.279 --> 01:10:13.119
virtue is the ability to store up
data, then whenever there are supercomputers,

861
01:10:13.640 --> 01:10:16.079
I mean, wouldn't that just mean
that we're not even virtuous? Right?

862
01:10:16.159 --> 01:10:19.520
I mean, if we have a
computer that stores up infinitely more data than

863
01:10:19.560 --> 01:10:24.000
the human mind does theoretically, then
we're no longer virtuous, right, I

864
01:10:24.039 --> 01:10:27.840
mean, we don't even compare to
that thing. So now virtue is just

865
01:10:28.279 --> 01:10:30.760
is equated with quantity. I mean, this is ridiculous. Well, and

866
01:10:30.880 --> 01:10:34.880
he thinks that it's wisdom, it's
caring, it's love, it's all these

867
01:10:34.920 --> 01:10:38.279
things. And somehow the machine's going
to be able to do this better than

868
01:10:38.359 --> 01:10:41.960
humans, which begs the question,
what machine have you seen do this?

869
01:10:42.279 --> 01:10:44.960
Yeah, but he says at the
beginning of lecture, he even makes the

870
01:10:45.000 --> 01:10:48.159
distinction between just pure knowledge and wisdom. He says, knowledge is, you

871
01:10:48.199 --> 01:10:51.920
know, knowing a lot of facts
data. Wisdom is the right application of

872
01:10:53.000 --> 01:10:56.359
that. Well, how is knowing
a lot of facts ever going to tell

873
01:10:56.399 --> 01:11:00.640
you the right application? Right?
Exactly? And it begs the question again,

874
01:11:01.479 --> 01:11:08.239
And so this idea that he can
program virtue is ridiculous, and and

875
01:11:08.640 --> 01:11:14.119
one beg you, like, it's
how does this relate to God, I

876
01:11:14.199 --> 01:11:17.680
mean, is virtue just? And
this where he actually really loves Orthodoxy because

877
01:11:17.760 --> 01:11:21.920
Bishop Maximus talked about theosis and the
uncreate energies. He laid out the energy

878
01:11:23.039 --> 01:11:27.359
essence distinction for him and why this
is different than than neo Platonism. He's

879
01:11:27.399 --> 01:11:30.000
like, oh, I love that. I love this idea that you you

880
01:11:30.760 --> 01:11:33.560
energetically engage with God. Yes,
yes, yes, because this is fort

881
01:11:33.560 --> 01:11:40.720
of his embodied cognitive cognitive science that
well, yeah, virtue is something that

882
01:11:40.800 --> 01:11:44.359
we participate in and it's participating in
God. Well, for him, he

883
01:11:44.439 --> 01:11:48.359
never roots virtue in anything. He
just describes it in the generic terms and

884
01:11:48.880 --> 01:11:53.199
says that these these machines are going
to be able to do it more because

885
01:11:53.319 --> 01:11:58.640
somehow, by by programming them correctly
and building them, the spirit, the

886
01:11:58.800 --> 01:12:03.760
process, the progress that's happening is
going to infuse this thing. Well,

887
01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:08.840
that sounds like supernatural to me,
Like, I mean, that's what he

888
01:12:08.920 --> 01:12:12.640
wants to do. He wants to
bring in the supernatural. He's very but

889
01:12:12.840 --> 01:12:16.600
he wants it to be couched and
and he talks about the mystical and mysticism

890
01:12:16.680 --> 01:12:20.000
and that the modern world doesn't have
mystery and that's why we have to re

891
01:12:20.279 --> 01:12:26.279
enliven the transcendent or the ineffable.
This is how we re rediscover what mystery

892
01:12:26.399 --> 01:12:31.119
means. But how does that relate
to a sentient AI figure. It makes

893
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:34.720
no sense. I don't under That's
where I just don't get the connection there,

894
01:12:35.199 --> 01:12:39.760
because I read a lot about AI
and transhumanism and all this stuff for

895
01:12:39.920 --> 01:12:43.039
my work, which I'm not there. You go, I'm not too well.

896
01:12:43.039 --> 01:12:46.680
I mean, isn't he basically saying
what Harari says that it's going to

897
01:12:46.720 --> 01:12:49.880
be a new religion. AI will
be a kind of new source of a

898
01:12:49.960 --> 01:12:54.680
new religion because it will write a
better Bible than your old, dusty,

899
01:12:54.760 --> 01:13:00.800
old human written Bible right right,
Whereas you've all known or Harari is very

900
01:13:01.720 --> 01:13:08.600
antagonistic if you're coming from a traditional
perspective, Verveaki is trying to appeal to

901
01:13:08.720 --> 01:13:11.760
you. He's trying to see that
you can be grafted into this new project.

902
01:13:11.840 --> 01:13:14.680
You know, you just got to
send money into the Verveaki Foundation of

903
01:13:14.920 --> 01:13:18.640
in which he's building this new structure
again, the Religion of Tomorrow, creating

904
01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:24.079
new mythic narratives of science and tech
rooted in the belief of the transcendent ineffable

905
01:13:24.119 --> 01:13:30.199
mystery. This is what he believes
he's doing. So well, my question

906
01:13:30.279 --> 01:13:34.159
there would be like, how is
he different? Or maybe he's not different,

907
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:39.119
He's just carrying on the project of
say, anybody from the Esslon Institute,

908
01:13:39.199 --> 01:13:43.279
like, how is this really any
different than you know, predecessors like

909
01:13:43.960 --> 01:13:47.319
a Leery before him, or a
Huxley or a Deepak Chopra, or do

910
01:13:47.399 --> 01:13:50.159
you think he would see himself as
kind of the successor to these people.

911
01:13:51.439 --> 01:13:56.600
I think he would see himself as
as similarly part of the same project.

912
01:13:56.760 --> 01:14:02.760
I think he would see himself as
different in the sense of h the scientific

913
01:14:02.920 --> 01:14:08.520
and academic scrutiny that he's putting on
this topic, that he he's going to

914
01:14:09.279 --> 01:14:12.760
take it to a new level.
I mean, he's so Huxley's a literary

915
01:14:12.880 --> 01:14:15.520
person. You know, he's not
a scientist. He's not a scientist.

916
01:14:15.640 --> 01:14:18.560
Bravaiki is a scientist. So what
he's going to do, He's going to

917
01:14:18.800 --> 01:14:27.960
map analytically and scientifically the the spirituality
that undergirds all of reality and that and

918
01:14:28.439 --> 01:14:32.000
that sounds like wow, would anybody
be that hubris to say that that's their

919
01:14:32.079 --> 01:14:35.399
project? Well, that's his project, and he's very explicit about it.

920
01:14:35.960 --> 01:14:40.760
I'm gonna find I'm going to go
to cern and find the God particle.

921
01:14:40.880 --> 01:14:45.119
Dude, right, I'm gonna put
the God particle in a test tube and

922
01:14:45.239 --> 01:14:47.800
like bring it home and like,
yeah, it's it's just this this uh

923
01:14:48.760 --> 01:14:57.319
weird projects of which are grounded I
think, in grandiosity and not really grasping

924
01:14:57.520 --> 01:15:01.720
kind of like, I mean,
God is not that, you know what

925
01:15:01.720 --> 01:15:05.439
I mean. God is a God's
not a technology. And this was my

926
01:15:05.560 --> 01:15:10.159
next critique that I had in my
notes, which was that the parallel I

927
01:15:10.279 --> 01:15:17.159
see here with Jordan Peterson Tate and
now with Verveki getting into his ideas,

928
01:15:17.399 --> 01:15:25.039
is that God here once again,
is a psychotechnology. God is an abstracted

929
01:15:25.199 --> 01:15:30.760
thing that maybe in Verveak grounds being
or something. But for you as an

930
01:15:30.800 --> 01:15:36.359
individual, when the terminology of participating
in God or theaosis is used, it's

931
01:15:36.439 --> 01:15:43.000
not what we mean as Orthodox.
What's meant is there's this sort of abstracted

932
01:15:43.399 --> 01:15:48.319
thing that you sort of project your
ideals onto and that helps you sort of

933
01:15:48.439 --> 01:15:55.800
move forward in your you know,
self help process basically. And I don't

934
01:15:55.840 --> 01:15:59.479
want to accuse these people of being
I'm not trying to go too far with

935
01:15:59.560 --> 01:16:03.560
this but if you know the thought
of Anton LaVey, I'm serious. I

936
01:16:03.600 --> 01:16:10.760
mean Anton LaVey says that what you're
doing in his religious practice, which again

937
01:16:10.800 --> 01:16:15.560
he kind of invented, he called
it self transformative psychodrama. And what he

938
01:16:15.680 --> 01:16:20.239
means by that is that as a
nontheistic Satanist, he doesn't actually believe that,

939
01:16:20.720 --> 01:16:25.520
you know, doing the rituals or
whatever, that you're invoking this metaphysical

940
01:16:25.600 --> 01:16:31.920
being. He thinks that you're actually
mastering the mind power to train yourself to

941
01:16:32.199 --> 01:16:36.119
think and become what you're trying to
become. So, in other words,

942
01:16:36.640 --> 01:16:41.479
for Levy, let's say, yeah, let's say you want to be a

943
01:16:41.600 --> 01:16:45.079
vampire. LaVey doesn't believe that there's
an actual, you know, five hundred

944
01:16:45.119 --> 01:16:48.800
year old vampire living in a castle
in Transylvania, but he thinks there is

945
01:16:48.880 --> 01:16:54.439
this archetype that is a kind of
a real thing that you could tap into

946
01:16:54.560 --> 01:16:58.279
in the sense that you could take
on the properties and like, if you

947
01:16:58.399 --> 01:17:01.079
go and live in the dark and
sleep in a coffin, that you're kind

948
01:17:01.119 --> 01:17:08.319
of becoming that that image, right, you can kind of become that in

949
01:17:08.399 --> 01:17:13.119
the same way, I think that
the commonality and I'm not saying that Peterson

950
01:17:13.159 --> 01:17:15.760
and Tate and Vervek are intentionally Satanist. I'm just saying that I see the

951
01:17:15.880 --> 01:17:21.279
pattern of God is this thing that
works for you. Baby, We're gonna

952
01:17:21.319 --> 01:17:25.399
make God. We're gonna make God
work for you. Baby. You're gonna

953
01:17:25.399 --> 01:17:28.680
be a sta. You want to
be a sta. Think about God as

954
01:17:28.680 --> 01:17:30.359
a star. You're gonna be that
God sta baby. Right. It's like

955
01:17:30.439 --> 01:17:33.560
the I'm serious, it's like the
like the Hollywood casting couch guys, like,

956
01:17:33.640 --> 01:17:38.560
we're gonna make you a STA baby, right right. No, And

957
01:17:38.720 --> 01:17:42.279
in that embodiment of the archetype,
I think Verveke would love that idea that

958
01:17:42.399 --> 01:17:45.439
you're talking about with Anton Levey,
and that you sort of act out who

959
01:17:45.520 --> 01:17:48.920
it is that you are. This
is even tied to performative gender theory.

960
01:17:48.960 --> 01:17:53.199
You could say this is another you
just act it out and now you are

961
01:17:53.279 --> 01:18:00.520
the thing you become. Yeah and
Yeah. In regards to than the Ai,

962
01:18:01.159 --> 01:18:06.199
he says, we are morally obligated
in the twenty first century to create

963
01:18:06.319 --> 01:18:12.000
these machines, and we're morally obligated
to embody virtue because it's going to take

964
01:18:12.119 --> 01:18:18.000
us to a new pinnacle of humanity. So that was well, what is

965
01:18:18.079 --> 01:18:21.840
the I mean? This is again
teleologies here what I mean? So I

966
01:18:21.960 --> 01:18:28.680
think he's seeing all personally. When
you ask what is the teleology, He's

967
01:18:28.720 --> 01:18:32.000
never explicit other than his project is
all about personal enlightenment. And so I

968
01:18:32.159 --> 01:18:38.439
assume the teleology is that everybody becomes
enlightened. Well, I think I don't

969
01:18:38.520 --> 01:18:41.920
remember if it was being You or
maybe it was Jim Bob, somebody was

970
01:18:41.920 --> 01:18:45.960
basically making the point that in the
Petersonian system, basically at the end of

971
01:18:46.000 --> 01:18:49.800
the day, that what's offered to
you is you becoming a better you.

972
01:18:50.720 --> 01:18:54.359
And it's like, yeah, okay, but what does it actually mean to

973
01:18:54.479 --> 01:18:57.880
be a better mean? The irony
is that this is the meaning crisis.

974
01:18:58.039 --> 01:19:00.600
Guy, It's all about the meaning
crist Okay, we can admit there's a

975
01:19:00.720 --> 01:19:05.720
meaning crisis, but to say that
the project here via Peterson, for example,

976
01:19:05.920 --> 01:19:11.279
is you becoming a better you?
Right? Or Tate even had this

977
01:19:11.359 --> 01:19:14.479
phrase, or he said something like, you know, God is what I

978
01:19:14.720 --> 01:19:17.000
think I want to be. God
is like my thought of what I want

979
01:19:17.079 --> 01:19:20.039
to be. Right, It's like
my thought of what I want to be

980
01:19:20.159 --> 01:19:24.680
in the future is like what God
is working for me? Seriously, right,

981
01:19:25.279 --> 01:19:28.720
And it's like so and in here
God is this sort of unknown,

982
01:19:28.760 --> 01:19:36.279
amorphous all encompassing something grounded being.
But to say God is grounded being but

983
01:19:36.439 --> 01:19:43.399
it's a contentless thing is really to
say nothing. Right. I know you're

984
01:19:43.399 --> 01:19:46.319
wanting to go to AI. I
keep critiquing the metaphysics. It's just such

985
01:19:46.359 --> 01:19:51.760
a metaphysically dense He's so metaphysically dense
with all the verbiage to then kind of

986
01:19:51.880 --> 01:19:57.000
be sort of there's there's no there
there, there's no there. There,

987
01:19:58.000 --> 01:20:04.239
there's not there. They they're that, they're they they're faki right. And

988
01:20:04.399 --> 01:20:08.079
somebody made a point in regarding his
intention in the chat, and I just

989
01:20:08.199 --> 01:20:13.560
want to say I I don't take
him as like, you know, ill

990
01:20:13.680 --> 01:20:15.319
intent. Maybe he is. I
have no idea. He seems to be

991
01:20:15.399 --> 01:20:18.680
sincere and what he believes he's doing
in his belief and he's sure his hell

992
01:20:18.760 --> 01:20:23.840
puts a lot of effort into what
he's doing. Uh so I assume that

993
01:20:23.920 --> 01:20:27.680
he's he's a sincere individual. I
don't mean to cast aspersions on his intentions,

994
01:20:27.720 --> 01:20:30.039
like he's trying to lead everybody straight. Because I made a comment about

995
01:20:30.479 --> 01:20:33.279
the Vervekee Foundation, which he's explicit
about to donate to the Verveake Foundation so

996
01:20:33.359 --> 01:20:38.119
he can continue building this project.
Also, I'm not saying that they're all

997
01:20:38.239 --> 01:20:40.760
Satanists. That was not what I
meant, and I'm not saying that they're

998
01:20:40.760 --> 01:20:44.199
all part of in culture. I'm
just saying that I can see commonalities and

999
01:20:44.319 --> 01:20:49.319
patterns in the research going on by
you know, nefarious entities, and a

1000
01:20:49.359 --> 01:20:53.880
lot of the conclusions of what these
people are coming to. I do not

1001
01:20:54.079 --> 01:20:57.479
mean to say that they have bad
motives or intentions. I can't judge or

1002
01:20:57.560 --> 01:21:01.520
know people's motives or intentions. I'm
just looking at what's being presented and critiquing

1003
01:21:01.600 --> 01:21:08.720
the positions themselves right exactly. And
so just like you're talking about, there's

1004
01:21:08.720 --> 01:21:12.880
no there there. He talks about
all this virtue, but then his anthropology

1005
01:21:13.159 --> 01:21:17.199
seems to just be an emergent property
of mind that is due to brain connectivity

1006
01:21:17.319 --> 01:21:25.760
and personal experience and memories. But
then he I was watching a lecture or

1007
01:21:26.880 --> 01:21:30.479
podcast he had with a couple other
thinkers on self, soul, and spirit,

1008
01:21:30.399 --> 01:21:39.279
in which they began to redefine these
things scientifically, and so the self,

1009
01:21:41.319 --> 01:21:45.199
they started using all these cognitive scientific
models and psychological models to then map

1010
01:21:45.600 --> 01:21:50.359
well the soul is really just the
piece of you that is part of eternity

1011
01:21:50.439 --> 01:21:54.399
in affinity, and it's like and
they're like shaking their head, Yeah,

1012
01:21:54.439 --> 01:21:59.119
exactly where did you get this?
How did you How did you get the

1013
01:21:59.239 --> 01:22:04.760
concept of a soul? And they
use this with all the scientific garbage to

1014
01:22:05.399 --> 01:22:10.479
insinuate that there's the self, the
eye, then there's a piece of you

1015
01:22:10.640 --> 01:22:14.800
that is transcendent, it's part of
the transcendent mystical realm. And then there's

1016
01:22:14.880 --> 01:22:17.399
the spirit, which would be tied
more to geist. And so they're trying

1017
01:22:17.399 --> 01:22:21.840
to then use scientific jargon to wrap
all this stuff together. The sense of

1018
01:22:23.159 --> 01:22:26.680
the cognitive sense of self, the
idea that there's more to you than who

1019
01:22:26.720 --> 01:22:30.319
you really are, this is tied
to somehow this transcendent reality and that this

1020
01:22:30.680 --> 01:22:36.720
divine religio undergirding of the fundamental reality
is then bringing all this stuff and moving

1021
01:22:36.840 --> 01:22:42.119
through progress and process into the future. And this is then how they're going

1022
01:22:42.159 --> 01:22:45.439
to scientifically redefine what they call the
self, the soul, and spirit.

1023
01:22:45.840 --> 01:22:51.520
Well, I mean that's just again
neoplatonic stuff dressed up again. You know,

1024
01:22:51.600 --> 01:22:56.800
if we're going to do one of
these mining projects right where we're going

1025
01:22:56.880 --> 01:23:01.520
to mine ancient ideas and we're going
to mind fullilosophers and create a new system.

1026
01:23:02.680 --> 01:23:06.800
Like on what basis do we know
we're mining in the right way,

1027
01:23:08.079 --> 01:23:12.319
Like we're going to go to Porphyry, We're going to go to Platinus,

1028
01:23:12.359 --> 01:23:15.359
We're gonna go to Iamblicus. We're
going to mine through them and find cool

1029
01:23:15.399 --> 01:23:19.760
stuff. We wait a minute.
Between Platinus and Iamblicus, they have radically

1030
01:23:19.840 --> 01:23:27.079
different ideas as to what is the
process by which I achieve henosis? Right,

1031
01:23:27.600 --> 01:23:32.800
for Iamblicus it's ritual magic, and
for Platinus it's ecstatic union. It's

1032
01:23:32.880 --> 01:23:39.680
not involving a bunch of rituals.
It's almost a cognitive contemplation or something.

1033
01:23:39.760 --> 01:23:44.119
Right. Yeah, Buddhism, Yeah
is like you being It's like the light

1034
01:23:44.159 --> 01:23:47.800
bulb goes off its enlightenment. So
so so how are we knowing that we're

1035
01:23:47.920 --> 01:23:53.680
mining the right toolkit out of these
guys, especially when but in other words,

1036
01:23:53.720 --> 01:23:57.439
there's not just this, Oh,
I go to the neoplatonists and that's

1037
01:23:57.520 --> 01:24:01.720
what my tradition. There's not a
tradition of neoplatonists. There's people commenting on

1038
01:24:02.000 --> 01:24:05.680
Plato and Aristotle. Uh, Middle
Playton is late play right, So,

1039
01:24:05.760 --> 01:24:11.920
and they're not. It's not just
one school and they disagree on very fundamental

1040
01:24:12.000 --> 01:24:15.479
things. That's what people assume that
there's like this one mystical tradition that you

1041
01:24:15.560 --> 01:24:18.199
can go to, and then you
find out that that didn't actually really exist.

1042
01:24:18.239 --> 01:24:20.560
There's a bunch of different thinkers.
It's kind of like when people say,

1043
01:24:20.600 --> 01:24:24.399
are you are you into Cabbalism?
Well, did you know that there's

1044
01:24:24.439 --> 01:24:29.560
a whole bunch of contradictory, ridiculous
systems known as Cabbalism? Right? And

1045
01:24:29.760 --> 01:24:31.960
there's not. I mean, there
are some commonalities, but it's like the

1046
01:24:32.079 --> 01:24:38.840
commonalities are so general that to think
that there's like one Cabbalistic thing, it's

1047
01:24:38.920 --> 01:24:42.520
kind of naive and silly. It's
the same with Neil Platonism. Uh you

1048
01:24:42.600 --> 01:24:44.600
know, it was like it'd be
like if somebody says, I'm into her

1049
01:24:44.680 --> 01:24:47.920
meticism. Ooh, right, Like
what does that mean? Really? So

1050
01:24:48.840 --> 01:24:54.359
point being is from the outset of
this project, right, we can ask

1051
01:24:54.439 --> 01:24:58.600
all kinds of questions, like how
do we know we're mining and digging up

1052
01:24:58.640 --> 01:25:04.239
the right ideas in our toolkit?
Yeah? Great question. I'd love to

1053
01:25:04.319 --> 01:25:13.000
hear him explain that because that's that
perennialistic really the consumeristic tendency to just like

1054
01:25:13.239 --> 01:25:17.119
pull and pick and choose and bring
and amalgamate all these things together. That

1055
01:25:17.800 --> 01:25:26.359
is clearly a post Enlightenment sentiment that
he's practicing this perennialistic project. How do

1056
01:25:26.479 --> 01:25:30.039
you justify what exactly you're pulling other
than it suits the goal in which he

1057
01:25:30.159 --> 01:25:34.920
ultimately is trying to put together,
which is this weird amalgamation and mixture of

1058
01:25:35.000 --> 01:25:39.119
things. So he doesn't need to
justify it, he just needs to show

1059
01:25:39.560 --> 01:25:43.079
at some surface level how it coheres
or it connects. Well. This is

1060
01:25:43.119 --> 01:25:45.760
interesting because between him and Peterson,
there would be a discrepancy right here,

1061
01:25:45.880 --> 01:25:56.520
because Peterson thinks of post Enlightenment,
post Newtonian factual knowledge, science knowledge.

1062
01:25:56.600 --> 01:26:03.079
Peterson calls that dead matter knowledge of
dead matter and basically abstraction, right,

1063
01:26:03.800 --> 01:26:08.800
And and Peterson's argumentation the personality courses
that oh, we got to get away

1064
01:26:08.840 --> 01:26:14.680
from that and get back to like
direct shamanic experience of the totality of our

1065
01:26:14.880 --> 01:26:18.800
you know, culture, right,
And that that's a more authentic approach to

1066
01:26:19.199 --> 01:26:25.479
knowing things and figuring out the world
than the the dead matter approach of abstract

1067
01:26:25.600 --> 01:26:30.479
Newtonian science and physics. So okay, but wait a minute. So now,

1068
01:26:30.520 --> 01:26:33.520
but we're going to use the scientific
project now here with Vervaik. In

1069
01:26:33.560 --> 01:26:36.840
other words, I'm just saying I
could theoretically play the role of Peterson and

1070
01:26:36.920 --> 01:26:44.000
say, well, why should I
follow scientific cognitive science as the way to

1071
01:26:44.119 --> 01:26:48.279
get to you know, the the
science of enlightenment, right because it already

1072
01:26:48.359 --> 01:26:55.880
presupposes the anthropology exactly. It already
presupposes that you're just your mind, You're

1073
01:26:56.000 --> 01:27:00.520
just this abstraction of consciousness. So
does he have an account for mind?

1074
01:27:00.560 --> 01:27:04.960
I mean, I mean, I
didn't find any definite. That's where I

1075
01:27:05.119 --> 01:27:10.239
was ten intent to say that he's
fully an emergentist, but it seems like

1076
01:27:10.359 --> 01:27:15.920
but he's clearly wrapped up in Darwinian
understandings of evolution. I don't know how

1077
01:27:15.279 --> 01:27:21.399
else he could account for what mind
is. And I mean, yeah,

1078
01:27:21.439 --> 01:27:27.560
I assume he is an emergentist,
that mind is just an emergent property due

1079
01:27:27.560 --> 01:27:30.560
to synapse connections that you fire enough
and now you have sydians, because that's

1080
01:27:30.560 --> 01:27:34.960
the only thing that makes sense on
why he's so adamant about AI becoming sentient

1081
01:27:35.079 --> 01:27:40.880
that he's he fully believes that's going
to happen, and the only would whether

1082
01:27:40.960 --> 01:27:46.439
you look at Gavalnor Harari or Max
Moore, not Natasha Vita Moore, all

1083
01:27:46.520 --> 01:27:56.520
the transhumanists, they all believe that
sentience is really the multiplicity of cognitive connections,

1084
01:27:57.199 --> 01:28:01.119
and so if you can just create
something that is so interconnectedly dense,

1085
01:28:01.720 --> 01:28:06.479
it will become self aware if it's
recognizing patterns. And so that's the basis

1086
01:28:06.560 --> 01:28:12.159
then of their anthropology, because if
that's what makes a human sentient, that's

1087
01:28:12.199 --> 01:28:15.439
what's going to make a machine sentient. That totally reduces So that's why then

1088
01:28:15.760 --> 01:28:20.159
the project of redefining and re understanding
self, soul and spirit it seems like

1089
01:28:20.600 --> 01:28:26.199
he's doing he's using these terms to
redefine them in a context which jive with

1090
01:28:26.319 --> 01:28:30.159
his worldview. Yet what exactly is
your soul he talks about, Oh,

1091
01:28:30.199 --> 01:28:32.279
well, it's the piece of you
that is part of the of eternity and

1092
01:28:32.359 --> 01:28:38.039
transcendence. But your whole worldview is
that there's a Big Bang theory and that

1093
01:28:38.600 --> 01:28:43.439
you know, man evolved from apes
and now we're conscious. I don't what.

1094
01:28:43.840 --> 01:28:47.199
It doesn't make any sense because he's
I've never heard him explicitly believe in

1095
01:28:47.239 --> 01:28:51.359
a creationist framework, whether it was
a Big Bang or not, that there

1096
01:28:51.479 --> 01:28:55.960
was some type of deity and that
it was an intentional creation of the world.

1097
01:28:56.000 --> 01:28:58.479
I've never heard him say that,
so it seems like he totally buys

1098
01:28:58.520 --> 01:29:03.560
into the secular cosmology. Yet then
he's trying to infuse all these spiritual terms

1099
01:29:03.600 --> 01:29:10.560
into a sort of secular, modern
transhumanist understanding of man. Well, this

1100
01:29:10.760 --> 01:29:13.920
is another oddity when it comes to
the notion of science. I mean,

1101
01:29:13.920 --> 01:29:16.960
I think we would all agree that
audity and verveakia. I mean, science

1102
01:29:17.359 --> 01:29:21.199
does deal with the domain of the
empirical right. I mean, science is

1103
01:29:21.640 --> 01:29:26.439
uh, you know, a tool
for understanding and mastering the natural world.

1104
01:29:26.560 --> 01:29:30.399
It's a it's a means by which
we you know, propose theories and then

1105
01:29:30.520 --> 01:29:34.520
test them. And that's the scientific
method. So you know, science is

1106
01:29:34.600 --> 01:29:41.079
bound up with I wouldn't say it's
totally reduced to empirical knowledge and sense data,

1107
01:29:41.159 --> 01:29:45.119
because science uses logic, it uses
mathematics for you know, engineering and

1108
01:29:45.159 --> 01:29:48.079
stuff like that. Sure, but
it's still within the domain of studying the

1109
01:29:48.199 --> 01:29:53.159
natural world with you you know,
with using empirical sense data and so forth.

1110
01:29:53.960 --> 01:29:58.479
So if that's what we're doing in
this process, we're tied to the

1111
01:29:58.560 --> 01:30:03.840
empirical How are we getting all of
this metaphysical baggage as a cognitive scientist.

1112
01:30:03.960 --> 01:30:10.279
That's what I don't understand. Because
everybody in the domain of science, right

1113
01:30:10.439 --> 01:30:13.680
who's going to be probably a materialist, right, they're gonna be They're gonna

1114
01:30:13.720 --> 01:30:18.479
say, wait a minute, where
under the microscope is being? I don't

1115
01:30:18.479 --> 01:30:23.640
see being under the microscope? Right, right? And so if so,

1116
01:30:24.479 --> 01:30:27.680
we're back to the Hume problem here, right. So it's it's fine to

1117
01:30:27.760 --> 01:30:30.680
say I want to deal with humans
challenges and problems, but to then say,

1118
01:30:31.520 --> 01:30:33.920
and here's how I deal with it. There's I just have all this

1119
01:30:34.039 --> 01:30:39.199
metaphysics as the ground of being,
But how does that do the work of

1120
01:30:39.279 --> 01:30:41.359
being the ground of being? Just
because you're saying you have all these It

1121
01:30:41.600 --> 01:30:44.960
reminds me of the Matt Dill Honey
debate where he's like, uh, well,

1122
01:30:45.039 --> 01:30:47.000
I don't have to give an account
for transcenital categories. I need them,

1123
01:30:47.079 --> 01:30:50.800
they just are right. Well,
that's that's essentially what he's doing though,

1124
01:30:51.239 --> 01:30:55.560
right, because he rejects revelation,
which is the point of the tag

1125
01:30:55.720 --> 01:31:00.680
argument. Yet he's exactly to adopt
a TAG framework exactly reject revelation and build

1126
01:31:00.720 --> 01:31:04.720
a tag framework naturalistically. That's why
he calls it transcendent naturalism. That's why

1127
01:31:04.800 --> 01:31:08.479
he named it that. So he's
like, Okay, Mott Delahune, you

1128
01:31:08.520 --> 01:31:12.079
make a good point. Now here's
my I'm going to give you this system,

1129
01:31:12.359 --> 01:31:15.680
right, the grand system building project
that is a naturalistic because that would

1130
01:31:15.680 --> 01:31:23.279
be my number one question for him
is how do you know that this religio

1131
01:31:23.720 --> 01:31:41.359
transcendent, ineffable godlike you hear me, you're back, How do you know

1132
01:31:41.479 --> 01:31:44.520
this transcendent god being? Yeah,
how do you know that there's this transcendent

1133
01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:48.319
metaphor? Because what he's doing is
he's just he's realizing his shortcoming. And

1134
01:31:48.439 --> 01:31:53.359
then he's just like, Okay,
well then I'll just pose it this metaphysical

1135
01:31:53.520 --> 01:31:59.600
godlike ambiguous transcendent entity, place that
as this fundamental thing that is again in

1136
01:31:59.680 --> 01:32:06.119
a alien censusist process theology. Allah
whitehead a lah hegel. And now I

1137
01:32:06.199 --> 01:32:10.039
don't have to account for it.
I don't need revelation. I can say

1138
01:32:10.079 --> 01:32:15.359
that this is just evident based on
again deeper phenomenological experiences. So psychedelics,

1139
01:32:15.760 --> 01:32:20.760
transcendental meditation, yoga, these are
ways in which Now, but why should

1140
01:32:20.800 --> 01:32:27.800
we believe that your inner experience of
you know, a psychedelic trip is somehow

1141
01:32:27.960 --> 01:32:34.119
an insight into metaphysical reality as a
whole. Exactly. I don't think he'd

1142
01:32:34.119 --> 01:32:39.399
be able to answer these because nobody
questions it because everybody he has on his

1143
01:32:39.439 --> 01:32:42.920
show is in favor of his project, and they're either working with him or

1144
01:32:42.960 --> 01:32:47.359
they're adjacent to the project in one
way or another. He can't. That's

1145
01:32:47.399 --> 01:32:51.199
his get out of jail free card
is that he just claims that this is

1146
01:32:51.279 --> 01:32:57.079
what Again, he doesn't like to
use God, but divinity is, and

1147
01:32:57.199 --> 01:33:00.479
now he has a basis for it, and then he just uses a Hegelian

1148
01:33:00.520 --> 01:33:03.800
concept. That's why DialogOS is,
like I said earlier, is so important

1149
01:33:03.840 --> 01:33:08.279
to his framework because oh, well, you don't know who you are without

1150
01:33:08.319 --> 01:33:11.119
the other person. And so this
is where he begins to use rhetoric about

1151
01:33:11.119 --> 01:33:15.399
collapsing dialectics and stuff. Yet his
whole project is about pure unity and monism.

1152
01:33:15.840 --> 01:33:19.399
Yeah, And that's the problem is
that there's always going to be metaphysical

1153
01:33:19.479 --> 01:33:25.560
dialectical problems in these kinds of projects
and worldviews because if you do not have

1154
01:33:25.800 --> 01:33:28.800
the triad, if you do not
have the essenceinary distinction. If you do

1155
01:33:28.920 --> 01:33:32.000
not have the creator creature distinction,
and if you do not have you know,

1156
01:33:32.119 --> 01:33:35.479
human beings made the image of God
He have the ability to act and

1157
01:33:35.560 --> 01:33:40.880
to reason and to to you know, exercise free will and their own created

1158
01:33:40.960 --> 01:33:44.760
energies in the world, then you're
not going to have an explanation for these

1159
01:33:44.840 --> 01:33:48.000
overarching principles that you want to try
to use to explain your system. They're

1160
01:33:48.039 --> 01:33:54.680
going to fall over into either monism, dualism, or some form of maya

1161
01:33:54.840 --> 01:33:59.159
or something that cancels out the monis
dualist dialectic. And so that's what we

1162
01:33:59.239 --> 01:34:03.319
see in Eastern plosophies is just contradicting
and flip flopping back and forth between these

1163
01:34:04.279 --> 01:34:11.760
these overriding metaphysical positions, and that
ends up canceling out the possibility of knowledge

1164
01:34:11.800 --> 01:34:15.399
at all. So what you end
up with is a dead end project and

1165
01:34:15.479 --> 01:34:17.680
a human here's the irony of it. It's what Ventil said a long time

1166
01:34:17.680 --> 01:34:23.720
ago. He said that within the
non believing paradigm, there's always this intense

1167
01:34:24.760 --> 01:34:30.720
opposition between reality and their mind being
hyper rational. In other words, everything

1168
01:34:30.880 --> 01:34:35.239
is categoric, categorizable, and coherent, and I can build a system as

1169
01:34:35.279 --> 01:34:40.239
a human being, but at the
same time, I'm an emergent piece of

1170
01:34:40.439 --> 01:34:45.159
muck from the primordial stew and everything
is chaos and irrational. So ultimate reality

1171
01:34:45.279 --> 01:34:50.720
is rational and irrational, and never
can the Twain mix within the unbelieving paradigm.

1172
01:34:50.800 --> 01:34:55.680
And that's a devastating critique of Ventil
gave I think right, and he

1173
01:34:55.720 --> 01:34:59.680
would he in one of the streams, he would he would probably agree with

1174
01:34:59.760 --> 01:35:03.159
that and say what he's doing is
he's making room for both. And so

1175
01:35:04.039 --> 01:35:10.159
like you were talking about his basis
of man or whatnot, or why we're

1176
01:35:10.279 --> 01:35:14.640
unique, because he believes in this
macroevolution stuff. So therefore, what exactly

1177
01:35:14.800 --> 01:35:16.439
you can't say man is not an
animal? I mean, this is where

1178
01:35:16.520 --> 01:35:19.680
you've all know. Harari is explicit
like it's all one continuum, there is

1179
01:35:19.800 --> 01:35:25.680
no essence there. How can you
define? He's against basically the whole animal

1180
01:35:25.800 --> 01:35:30.439
kingdom in regards that there is there's
distinct essences between things. And yet he

1181
01:35:30.520 --> 01:35:35.840
wants to talk about we have moral
obligations to create these ais, that man

1182
01:35:36.039 --> 01:35:42.960
is unique, that we get to
participate in divinity. How so, well,

1183
01:35:43.000 --> 01:35:45.520
I guess he's just arguing we're irrational
creatures, which is part of the

1184
01:35:45.560 --> 01:35:50.159
post Enlightenment project that he says he's
trying to undermine, because if your basis

1185
01:35:50.199 --> 01:35:56.039
of humanity is that your rational,
you're back into the nineteenth century. I

1186
01:35:56.119 --> 01:35:59.279
mean, in the eighteenth century.
It's like what Yeah, well, and

1187
01:35:59.319 --> 01:36:00.920
I would say too that. Well, wait a minute, So, like

1188
01:36:01.039 --> 01:36:03.920
you said it a few minutes ago, or at the beginning of that comment,

1189
01:36:04.079 --> 01:36:10.840
you said to Vervaki might actually accept
that ultimate reality is irrational and ultimate

1190
01:36:10.880 --> 01:36:15.720
reality is ultimately rational. Well,
that's a contradiction. Those are mutually exclusive

1191
01:36:15.800 --> 01:36:17.079
claims. And so if we're going
to get to the point where at the

1192
01:36:17.800 --> 01:36:26.680
very most basic ground of our worldview
we're affirming outright contradictions, then we don't

1193
01:36:26.680 --> 01:36:30.279
have a coherent worldview. Because if
you can affirm ground level contradictions, if

1194
01:36:30.279 --> 01:36:33.560
I were to contrast my worldview with
you, then I can do the same

1195
01:36:33.640 --> 01:36:39.600
thing and see this worldview then has
no answer and has no way to say,

1196
01:36:40.520 --> 01:36:45.319
Hey, this paradigm's true, that
paradigm's false. If contradictions are allowable,

1197
01:36:45.359 --> 01:36:48.159
then no paradigms are true and no
paradigms are false. Yeah, and

1198
01:36:48.479 --> 01:36:51.920
I think he would agree with that, and then he'd say well, ultimate

1199
01:36:53.000 --> 01:37:00.600
reality is this divine ground underneath it, and using the neoplatonic appo epathatic terminology,

1200
01:37:00.640 --> 01:37:04.239
would say, well, it is
irrational. It's beyond rationality. You

1201
01:37:04.319 --> 01:37:08.600
see, the ground of being is
sort of beyond rationality. But then our

1202
01:37:08.720 --> 01:37:12.920
engagement with it is all about irrational
apprehension. Is that and that's why his

1203
01:37:13.039 --> 01:37:15.720
project that is bringing God back into
the mix so that we can get a

1204
01:37:15.840 --> 01:37:20.239
totalized worldview. It's ridiculous, it
makes no sense, it's incoherent, It

1205
01:37:20.319 --> 01:37:30.439
fundamentally contradicts itself. And yet he
references the entire litany of like philosophy from

1206
01:37:30.520 --> 01:37:34.000
Descartes forward, so he uses everybody. He's referencing everybody in his work,

1207
01:37:34.279 --> 01:37:42.359
you know, all across different fields
and traditions and time periods. But ultimately,

1208
01:37:42.479 --> 01:37:46.119
when you do a paradigmatic criticism of
it, it collapses, It falls

1209
01:37:46.159 --> 01:37:49.840
apart. There's no there there,
it's not standing on anything. He's just

1210
01:37:49.960 --> 01:37:55.560
pulled out of his ass that there's
a fundamental divine ground of being and therefore

1211
01:37:55.880 --> 01:37:58.000
you want to get in touch of
that. Well, we do science during

1212
01:37:58.039 --> 01:38:00.279
the day, and then we do
tai chi and yoga in transital meditation at

1213
01:38:00.399 --> 01:38:03.319
night. Now, you're a whole
person. Now you can solve the meaning

1214
01:38:03.399 --> 01:38:09.199
crisis. Yeah, it does any
of that give a justification for any ethic

1215
01:38:09.359 --> 01:38:12.039
right. I mean, let's we've
talked, we've talked to all kinds of

1216
01:38:12.199 --> 01:38:15.600
metaphysics and epistemology, but let's make
it really basic and simple. Does this

1217
01:38:15.720 --> 01:38:19.960
worldview tell me whether it's wrong to
murder? Does it tell me in what

1218
01:38:20.159 --> 01:38:25.039
way or with what justification it's wrong
for me to cheat on my wife or

1219
01:38:25.199 --> 01:38:29.279
whatever? Right? I mean,
we have the Ten Commandments in divine revelation

1220
01:38:29.560 --> 01:38:32.399
and that works very well for a
function of society. Can your worldview at

1221
01:38:32.439 --> 01:38:35.039
least give me something like the ten
Commandments? And don't, by the way,

1222
01:38:35.199 --> 01:38:39.640
just copy and paste it, because
I want another justification for why in

1223
01:38:39.760 --> 01:38:44.880
your worldview I should follow the ten
Commandments. And he would say that again

1224
01:38:44.920 --> 01:38:49.439
the rejecting the natural fallacy, that
the naturalistic fallacy, that he can naturalistically

1225
01:38:49.560 --> 01:38:54.680
define objective morality. And I totally
reject that he can do that. But

1226
01:38:54.760 --> 01:38:57.920
he's explicit he thinks he can.
He thinks he can, he thinks he

1227
01:38:57.960 --> 01:39:00.520
can naturalistically define objective I mean,
Sam Harris was on a project. I

1228
01:39:00.560 --> 01:39:04.359
would say, Harris, say something
like that. Yeah, he's trying to

1229
01:39:04.439 --> 01:39:10.439
do the same thing. Vervaiki is
a little bit more in debt and nuanced

1230
01:39:10.560 --> 01:39:13.680
than I would say Sam Harris was, but it's the same thing. He

1231
01:39:13.800 --> 01:39:17.439
thinks that, Well, if really
then the ground of being is divine,

1232
01:39:17.960 --> 01:39:24.720
you shouldn't kill somebody because you'd be
harming being. You know, I don't

1233
01:39:24.720 --> 01:39:27.000
know if that's exactly what he would
say, but he'd have to go into

1234
01:39:27.079 --> 01:39:34.800
that terminology to naturalistically to define.
He made the explicit claim that he can't

1235
01:39:34.880 --> 01:39:43.560
objectively he can have objective morality through
naturalistic inquiry, uh and and define it.

1236
01:39:43.840 --> 01:39:46.039
I reject that he can do that. I think it's totally incomprehensible and

1237
01:39:46.119 --> 01:39:49.319
that there's no way that he can
come with. But that's why he That's

1238
01:39:49.319 --> 01:39:55.119
why again it's so important to reject
the naturalistic fallacy because if you don't,

1239
01:39:55.319 --> 01:39:58.760
if you don't, then he's stuck. And exactly what you just said.

1240
01:39:58.840 --> 01:40:01.760
You can't tell me why I shouldn't
rape or why I shouldn't kill somebody because

1241
01:40:01.760 --> 01:40:05.199
they have something I want. Well, if you reject the naturalistic fallacy,

1242
01:40:05.279 --> 01:40:09.239
now you can. You can say, well, yeah I can because of

1243
01:40:09.399 --> 01:40:14.199
some you know, Rigamarole answer that
you give. Yeah, but again I

1244
01:40:14.239 --> 01:40:17.479
mean just to say, well,
God is, or there is a generic

1245
01:40:17.840 --> 01:40:23.560
thing I call God that is the
ground of being, that's not actually solving

1246
01:40:23.920 --> 01:40:29.159
the Isa dilemma. So I mean
you were saying something like he thinks that

1247
01:40:29.880 --> 01:40:34.119
he thinks as a result, because
if you talk about being that you're necessarily

1248
01:40:34.319 --> 01:40:39.079
involved in like the good, which
is again that's that's just neoplatonism, but

1249
01:40:39.560 --> 01:40:42.760
exactly. But the point is that
like, but that doesn't mean that that

1250
01:40:42.920 --> 01:40:45.439
I should follow that because I'm because
I'm doing that right. So in other

1251
01:40:45.479 --> 01:40:49.199
words, if you read the russ
Manion critique, he has a really good

1252
01:40:49.239 --> 01:40:56.960
point about you know, let's say
that let's say that it is true that

1253
01:40:57.159 --> 01:41:00.600
the system that you have is coherent, but it doesn't follow that because the

1254
01:41:00.680 --> 01:41:04.760
system is coherent, or I have
this schema in my head of you know,

1255
01:41:04.960 --> 01:41:09.800
how all this stuff works, that
it maps onto the external world.

1256
01:41:10.640 --> 01:41:13.760
So maybe it does, but how
do I know that it maps onto the

1257
01:41:13.880 --> 01:41:16.399
external world? All this all this
schema and all this all these ideas and

1258
01:41:16.439 --> 01:41:19.199
metaphysics in my head, right,
how do I know that that actually maps

1259
01:41:19.279 --> 01:41:24.199
onto the world, or that all
that all of this necessary connection where I

1260
01:41:24.239 --> 01:41:27.119
think is necessary in my head,
actually is the case in the external world.

1261
01:41:27.159 --> 01:41:30.960
How do I know that? Right? That's a that's a great critique

1262
01:41:30.000 --> 01:41:35.479
that Manion has. Two people who
might say something like, well, you

1263
01:41:35.600 --> 01:41:41.560
know it is. It just has
to be this way. I can't conceive

1264
01:41:41.640 --> 01:41:44.880
of it being any other way.
Right, This is a common response people

1265
01:41:44.960 --> 01:41:48.960
say. But actually, just the
fact that you can't conceive of it being

1266
01:41:49.000 --> 01:41:56.640
another way actually doesn't grant you epistemic
justification for that belief, right All that

1267
01:41:56.800 --> 01:41:59.920
all that says is that you can't
conceive of it another way. It doesn't

1268
01:42:00.159 --> 01:42:03.720
mean that it's therefore true. Maybe
it is, but that's not enough for

1269
01:42:03.880 --> 01:42:10.279
justification. And that's why it's ironic
that he's at the same time he's critical

1270
01:42:10.319 --> 01:42:15.119
of the postmodern turn and this immense
relativism. I mean, for me,

1271
01:42:15.279 --> 01:42:19.239
looking at it as an Orthodoctrician,
I would lay many of the same criticisms

1272
01:42:19.279 --> 01:42:24.319
at his project, even though he
sees it as responding against it. I

1273
01:42:24.439 --> 01:42:31.279
mean, my gosh, wasn't the
immense perennialism is relativistic, the arbitrary grabbing

1274
01:42:31.399 --> 01:42:36.840
of divinity being the fundamental ground of
being, or just adopting Hangele that seems

1275
01:42:36.880 --> 01:42:43.119
to be arbitrary. And then you're
bringing together the rejection of the natural.

1276
01:42:43.359 --> 01:42:47.119
It seems like you're moving into relativism. And so it's like rejecting postmodernism and

1277
01:42:47.199 --> 01:42:55.800
sort of bringing in a sort of
scientific postmodern state where we listen to science

1278
01:42:55.840 --> 01:42:59.920
and now we can just create these
new things without a full coherent metaphysical frame.

1279
01:43:00.840 --> 01:43:02.600
Yeah, I mean this is why
you can't get rid of metaphysics and

1280
01:43:03.000 --> 01:43:06.319
nuance in this Like if you think
about we'll go to the super chests in

1281
01:43:06.359 --> 01:43:09.880
a second, if you if you
need to you need to get out of

1282
01:43:09.920 --> 01:43:13.279
here, or if you've got more
time. Yeah, you know, we

1283
01:43:13.359 --> 01:43:15.760
were talking to doctor Branson and he
was getting into last or a couple of

1284
01:43:15.840 --> 01:43:20.239
nights ago, a couple of the
points about why you have to kind of

1285
01:43:20.279 --> 01:43:25.600
make a lot of these distinctions with
word and reference. And you know,

1286
01:43:25.640 --> 01:43:29.279
when it comes to trinitarian theology,
for example, a lot of times Unitarians

1287
01:43:29.359 --> 01:43:32.479
or Arians or Muslims will make these
arguments about how well, when you say

1288
01:43:32.560 --> 01:43:36.560
there's one God, you know,
how do you posit three persons, because

1289
01:43:36.560 --> 01:43:41.319
that would be three gods. Because
God has to refer to the divine nature,

1290
01:43:41.840 --> 01:43:45.880
or to the Father alone. Right, But the word God or divinity

1291
01:43:45.680 --> 01:43:49.159
or so, let's say, the
word divine being, I mean that could

1292
01:43:49.199 --> 01:43:53.640
pick out let's say in the Biblical
tradition, I mean that picks out different

1293
01:43:53.680 --> 01:43:58.560
things. Let's say divinity. Divinity
could pick out you know, when Jesus

1294
01:43:58.600 --> 01:44:03.199
says to his followers, you are
God's right, it could be those use

1295
01:44:03.239 --> 01:44:08.239
the word the word god. So
it could be created beings. It could

1296
01:44:08.279 --> 01:44:14.279
be the gods of the nations are
demons, Paul says and David says,

1297
01:44:14.439 --> 01:44:18.279
so it could pick out devils,
the elohem. The angels are called gods,

1298
01:44:18.359 --> 01:44:23.079
they're called elohem, they're called divine
beings. So it could pick out

1299
01:44:23.159 --> 01:44:27.920
angels. God could also pick out
a divine person. It could pick out

1300
01:44:27.960 --> 01:44:30.479
the divine nature, and it could
pick out divine energies or attributes. You

1301
01:44:30.520 --> 01:44:33.520
could say, you know, God's
love is God. Yes, you could

1302
01:44:33.520 --> 01:44:38.840
say that, right. So,
the word God doesn't have a simple one

1303
01:44:38.920 --> 01:44:43.840
to one reference. It's going to
depend upon context and intentionality for their author

1304
01:44:43.920 --> 01:44:47.880
or the writer or the argument or
the paragraph or whatever. So when when

1305
01:44:47.920 --> 01:44:53.439
I hear things like, oh,
well, I believe in a transcendent deity,

1306
01:44:54.039 --> 01:44:57.319
oh, like, is it just
a thought? Is it a demon?

1307
01:44:58.000 --> 01:45:00.359
Is it an angel? Is?
I mean, the the word deity

1308
01:45:00.439 --> 01:45:04.479
or divinity is not a specific term. It depends on the reference and the

1309
01:45:04.800 --> 01:45:09.640
intentionality in the context. Well,
and that's a huge part of his project,

1310
01:45:09.720 --> 01:45:15.119
as we begin with even talking about
the verbosity of his it's so verbose

1311
01:45:15.199 --> 01:45:18.560
how he describes and writes and does
all this stuff that it's just he's taking

1312
01:45:18.640 --> 01:45:23.880
so many generic terms and then putting
them in their own new context, and

1313
01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:27.119
then he just moves on to the
next point. It's just there's so much

1314
01:45:27.239 --> 01:45:31.840
going on. He never fully explains
how this in its particular context relates to

1315
01:45:31.920 --> 01:45:38.000
what he's talking about right now.
And like you said, this generic concepts

1316
01:45:38.039 --> 01:45:42.640
of God, generic concepts of self. I mean, he's always talking about

1317
01:45:42.680 --> 01:45:45.800
the better, the better, the
good, the good, virtue, virtue,

1318
01:45:45.279 --> 01:45:47.720
what is it? How do you
even know what it is? I

1319
01:45:47.960 --> 01:45:53.359
still do not know how he comes
up with what exactly the good, the

1320
01:45:53.439 --> 01:45:58.359
better and virtue is in his worldview
that would be coherent and justified. I

1321
01:45:58.359 --> 01:46:01.840
don't see how he can. Yet
another question, maybe back to the psychedelic

1322
01:46:01.880 --> 01:46:04.439
stuff, because I know you've done
a lot of research in that area.

1323
01:46:04.560 --> 01:46:11.840
You and I both have in our
earlier times younger days, done multiple hallucinogens

1324
01:46:11.880 --> 01:46:21.359
and whatnot. There's an assumption that
hallucinogens somehow give a person automatically like this

1325
01:46:21.840 --> 01:46:28.239
perception into reality. I don't think
it necessarily does. I think that you

1326
01:46:28.359 --> 01:46:31.479
could have an experience on a hallucingen
that's not necessarily bad, that might cause

1327
01:46:31.560 --> 01:46:34.960
you to think in a certain way. It might give you a creative insight

1328
01:46:35.119 --> 01:46:42.479
that these things are possible. But
the over romanticization of hallucinogens as if they

1329
01:46:42.680 --> 01:46:45.840
are this sort of like sacrament,
the way that a lot of these people

1330
01:46:46.000 --> 01:46:49.399
view it. Do you have what
would you say to that, like to

1331
01:46:49.479 --> 01:46:53.880
somebody who said, is it really
this way or is that an exaggeration?

1332
01:46:54.720 --> 01:46:58.039
Yeah, I totally agree with you. Is that how First of all,

1333
01:46:58.079 --> 01:47:01.239
if anybody's done those substances, you
know how radical the experiences and the insights

1334
01:47:01.319 --> 01:47:04.520
and your perspective can be on certain
things. I mean, you can sit

1335
01:47:05.039 --> 01:47:08.880
in a room and all of a
sudden, you know, something looks like

1336
01:47:08.960 --> 01:47:13.159
it's melting, or some shadow looks
like it's talking to you. So you're

1337
01:47:13.399 --> 01:47:17.319
into this really altered state of consciousness, and yet you might have insight into,

1338
01:47:17.359 --> 01:47:21.319
meaning you may have a hope into
things that maybe you were depressed about

1339
01:47:21.439 --> 01:47:26.399
or doubtful about. I don't doubt
that at all. But when people think

1340
01:47:26.479 --> 01:47:31.800
that psychedelics themselves give them a deeper
insight into the nature of being, I

1341
01:47:31.880 --> 01:47:36.279
don't see how they can make that
case given the varieties of experiences. I

1342
01:47:36.359 --> 01:47:40.399
mean, the Mayans are a cult, or the Aztecs rather are a culture

1343
01:47:41.159 --> 01:47:45.920
oriented around ritual mushroom use, typically
around the sacrifice of people, which they

1344
01:47:45.960 --> 01:47:48.439
would do hundreds at a time,
and they would, you know, take

1345
01:47:48.479 --> 01:47:56.000
out live beating hearts. Is that
somehow insightful to the psychedelics' spirituality? I

1346
01:47:56.079 --> 01:48:00.439
mean, I don't understand the berserkers
in Scandinavia. They would get high on

1347
01:48:00.520 --> 01:48:05.159
mushrooms before they went to war because
it made them less cautious and fearful.

1348
01:48:08.079 --> 01:48:13.399
So the people who believe that they
take these high dose psychedelics and somehow enter

1349
01:48:13.600 --> 01:48:19.039
into a state of pure understanding and
knowing, oftentimes they can't even remember what

1350
01:48:19.079 --> 01:48:23.239
they tripped about once they get down, because once you're out of the high,

1351
01:48:23.439 --> 01:48:30.239
it becomes convoluted. You're not sure
what you experienced. The emotional euphoric

1352
01:48:30.359 --> 01:48:34.560
experiences gone so people kind of lose
what it is they thought they were gaining

1353
01:48:34.640 --> 01:48:39.119
in the first place. I don't
doubt that people have had positive experiences,

1354
01:48:39.239 --> 01:48:46.239
I'm sure, but in regards to
psychedelics as a explicit technology or practice that

1355
01:48:46.359 --> 01:48:49.800
takes you into deeper understanding, I
believe that at one point, and it

1356
01:48:49.960 --> 01:48:53.840
was me having my own experiences where
I came out of a trip thinking that

1357
01:48:53.920 --> 01:48:57.000
something was true or that something was
about to happen in my life, and

1358
01:48:57.079 --> 01:48:59.720
then it didn't happen. And that
happened a few times, to the point

1359
01:48:59.720 --> 01:49:02.680
where I like, damn, this
stuff is not you know, whatever happens

1360
01:49:02.720 --> 01:49:05.439
to me in these altered states,
it's not gospel. It's not going to

1361
01:49:05.560 --> 01:49:11.199
happen. Multiple times, the opposite
actually occurred, and that really got me

1362
01:49:11.399 --> 01:49:15.279
questioning this whole thing that somehow psychedelics
are the answer to everything, and that

1363
01:49:15.439 --> 01:49:18.800
they are they allow you to sort
of escape the matrix, get your mind

1364
01:49:18.840 --> 01:49:23.560
outside the matrix. Well, in
many ways, your mind goes deeper into

1365
01:49:23.640 --> 01:49:28.439
the matrix exactly. That's a great
point. And let's also not ignore the

1366
01:49:28.560 --> 01:49:32.600
negative effects that many people have on
these substances. Now you could argue that,

1367
01:49:33.239 --> 01:49:38.159
well, it's not actually the substance. It's that person already having psychological

1368
01:49:38.279 --> 01:49:43.600
problems, trauma or whatever that's coming
out. But regardless, like remember the

1369
01:49:45.279 --> 01:49:49.399
the who's the fitness YouTube dude that
like descended into madness through constantly doing drugs.

1370
01:49:49.439 --> 01:49:53.880
Oh, Connor Murphy exactly right,
So wait a minute, So was

1371
01:49:53.920 --> 01:49:58.199
he getting a deeper insight into reality
by basically going into madness? I mean,

1372
01:49:58.720 --> 01:50:01.880
in other words, there's this this
this assumption, this this romanticization of

1373
01:50:02.079 --> 01:50:04.960
madness, right, and we think
of, oh, the artist is the

1374
01:50:05.079 --> 01:50:12.399
genius who's insane. Yes, sometimes
there is a fine line between kind of

1375
01:50:12.399 --> 01:50:15.279
an insanity and genius. But also
in a lot of drug culture, in

1376
01:50:15.359 --> 01:50:20.479
a lot of counterculture, there's again
this over romanticization of the idea that just

1377
01:50:20.600 --> 01:50:26.399
being a degenera and but just being
basically schizophrenic makes you this sort of artistic

1378
01:50:26.479 --> 01:50:30.159
genius, which is nonsense. Right. Well, I think it's we're seeing

1379
01:50:30.279 --> 01:50:35.640
a culture sort of veneration of chaos
and it's really the rejection of God.

1380
01:50:36.279 --> 01:50:43.479
Well, remember Peterson says that the
chaos is the necessary correlation to order,

1381
01:50:45.039 --> 01:50:53.279
because he believes that because he's collapsed
non being into the opposite of being right,

1382
01:50:53.399 --> 01:50:58.439
and so he has a dualistic framework, and so he thinks that non

1383
01:50:58.560 --> 01:51:01.479
being his opposite of being, and
good is upsote of evil, and chaos

1384
01:51:01.560 --> 01:51:05.520
is the upside of order. And
he thinks that by chaos that basically means

1385
01:51:05.640 --> 01:51:12.920
anything that brings about challenges in your
life. The chaos is necessary. Evil

1386
01:51:13.039 --> 01:51:15.600
is chaos, and so evil is
necessary if you were consistent in that worldview.

1387
01:51:16.159 --> 01:51:21.319
Right well, And that's also what
people who are theistic Satanists worship because

1388
01:51:21.319 --> 01:51:25.359
they say, well, God couldn't
exist without Satan, so who's really powerful?

1389
01:51:25.520 --> 01:51:29.479
Right well, Again, any traditional
Christian worldview, I your order,

1390
01:51:29.520 --> 01:51:31.439
Dox, you wouldn't think that at
all, because chaos is just the privation

1391
01:51:31.600 --> 01:51:36.520
of God's order. So order is
something to be aspired towards. Always talking

1392
01:51:36.520 --> 01:51:42.359
about dered in grammatology where he goes
into the foul logo centrism as this thing

1393
01:51:42.439 --> 01:51:46.000
that they have to undermine. Well, that's what I see culture generally speaking.

1394
01:51:46.159 --> 01:51:51.880
It's antifoul logo centric, and so
it's not interested in the center.

1395
01:51:53.039 --> 01:51:57.119
It's not interested in a logos oriented
worldview, and it's definitely not interested in

1396
01:51:57.199 --> 01:52:00.640
a mask of proval. Not that
men are better than we in but there's

1397
01:52:00.680 --> 01:52:04.520
a privileged understanding of the role of
men in society. Well, now it

1398
01:52:04.640 --> 01:52:11.600
hits on everything we just talked about
with Peterson and Andrew Tate. You can

1399
01:52:11.680 --> 01:52:16.039
see this void then for people to
give voice to foul logo centrumrism. According

1400
01:52:16.039 --> 01:52:20.319
to Dereta, you can't take it
away from Christianity. It is the central

1401
01:52:20.359 --> 01:52:26.000
pillar of Christianity. So then now
we're seeing all these people give rhetoric to

1402
01:52:26.039 --> 01:52:29.760
foul logo centrism, but Christianity is
not there to actually be. Yeah,

1403
01:52:29.960 --> 01:52:32.800
it's basically, let me have all
the metaphysics and the tool kit without the

1404
01:52:33.119 --> 01:52:38.640
without Jesus, without the Trinity,
and the irony I would say, as

1405
01:52:38.640 --> 01:52:40.880
we come here, maybe to the
end before we go to the super chats,

1406
01:52:41.000 --> 01:52:45.600
the irony is that the meaning crisis, the meaning that he's looking for

1407
01:52:45.720 --> 01:52:49.079
there. Guess what, it's logos. The answer to the meaning crisis is

1408
01:52:49.159 --> 01:52:54.640
in John one as the logos,
who is the explainer, the reason,

1409
01:52:54.920 --> 01:53:00.359
the meaning of the fathers. The
Son is the logos, the wisdom,

1410
01:53:00.479 --> 01:53:02.800
the mind, the explanation, the
exegesus of the Father. In fact,

1411
01:53:02.880 --> 01:53:06.760
in John one it says, it
actually says in the Greek he because he

1412
01:53:06.920 --> 01:53:12.720
is the Exegete of he Exegetes explains
the Father to us. So our ultimate

1413
01:53:12.840 --> 01:53:15.880
source is God the Father, and
the way that we come to God the

1414
01:53:15.960 --> 01:53:20.399
Father is through that logos reason of
the Son. And that's the very thing

1415
01:53:20.560 --> 01:53:26.960
that he's grasping for in this system. And that's why he's redefined logos as

1416
01:53:26.960 --> 01:53:30.239
epistemology. Right, So thing of
everything you just said that Christ is and

1417
01:53:30.439 --> 01:53:33.840
he wants all that, he wants
to use all that rhetoric he wants to

1418
01:53:33.960 --> 01:53:40.960
borrow from Orthodox He especially theosis and
energy understanding of the uncreated energies and stuff

1419
01:53:41.000 --> 01:53:45.800
like this. But then logos is
just again it gets abstracted. It's not

1420
01:53:45.199 --> 01:53:48.119
Jesus Christ, it's not the incarnation
of God, it's not the history.

1421
01:53:48.159 --> 01:53:51.720
Well, it's just my own reasoning. It's a pistemology. Yeah, it's

1422
01:53:51.760 --> 01:53:58.359
how it's Well, logos is objectively
real because two plus two equals four.

1423
01:53:58.840 --> 01:54:01.640
Okay, yeah, I agree with
that, But what is the logo is

1424
01:54:01.720 --> 01:54:05.800
way more than all that, Like, he won't go further because that would

1425
01:54:05.880 --> 01:54:11.680
necessity necessitate him to recognize the Christian
paradigm, which his whole project is to

1426
01:54:11.760 --> 01:54:19.119
not do exactly any closing thoughts on
Verveki before we head on over to the

1427
01:54:19.159 --> 01:54:24.520
super chats. Has been a great
discussion and I think you you definitely brought

1428
01:54:24.720 --> 01:54:29.479
the you know, intellectual weight here
to give I think a sufficient critique.

1429
01:54:30.479 --> 01:54:33.000
Again, not that we you know, dislike him on a personal level or

1430
01:54:33.039 --> 01:54:36.319
anything like that, just just just
interacting with the ideas and how we would

1431
01:54:36.359 --> 01:54:40.800
critique it. Any final thoughts before
we go to superchats. Yeah, I

1432
01:54:41.000 --> 01:54:43.560
just like to say that I,
like I said, I don't know the

1433
01:54:43.600 --> 01:54:47.640
intentions of Erveaki, and our conversation
day was not to disparage him or say

1434
01:54:47.680 --> 01:54:53.600
anything negative about him as a person. We're just analyzing his ideas and when

1435
01:54:53.640 --> 01:54:59.439
you look at what his project is, it's really about constructing what he calls

1436
01:54:59.479 --> 01:55:05.000
the Religion of Tomorrow. The Religion
of Tomorrow is a religious discourse and rhetoric

1437
01:55:05.079 --> 01:55:10.800
built upon what he calls transcendent naturalism, which is the idea that he can

1438
01:55:10.880 --> 01:55:16.760
basically build an entire spiritual paradigm through
naturalistic endeavors. And and he does that

1439
01:55:16.920 --> 01:55:21.039
by rejecting the naturalistic fallacy, which
is essential to his project. And he

1440
01:55:21.119 --> 01:55:24.800
has all these scholars because I guess
this is a move in philosophy which I

1441
01:55:24.920 --> 01:55:28.439
was not familiar with until there's him
talk because he starts pulling out all these

1442
01:55:28.479 --> 01:55:31.000
books, these modern new books that
have been written about why we have to

1443
01:55:31.079 --> 01:55:35.840
reject the naturalistic fallacy. And so
to me, this is all part and

1444
01:55:35.960 --> 01:55:42.039
parcel of all these post turns,
so that we're in a posthumanism. Transhumanism

1445
01:55:42.119 --> 01:55:47.720
is explicit about being post humanism.
Post secularism. Post secularism is also a

1446
01:55:47.800 --> 01:55:55.520
new stage that philosophy describes where discourse
between or religious and secular discourse collapses,

1447
01:55:55.720 --> 01:56:00.720
that there now is no distinction.
All discourse is religious, all discourse secular.

1448
01:56:00.279 --> 01:56:04.399
This is part of the post secular
term. So his project is in

1449
01:56:04.520 --> 01:56:09.840
the middle of all these different things. And that's why he's responding to the

1450
01:56:09.920 --> 01:56:14.479
meaning crisis, all these series on
awakening from the meaning crisis. You awaken

1451
01:56:14.560 --> 01:56:19.439
from the meaning crisis by realizing that
there is this fundamental ground of spirituality or

1452
01:56:19.560 --> 01:56:27.520
God or divinity and that you then
can experience that in your self through tai

1453
01:56:27.640 --> 01:56:31.119
chi, martial arts, yoga,
transcendental meditation. And so he's saying,

1454
01:56:31.159 --> 01:56:35.720
well, we use science. Science
is true, science is good. Therefore

1455
01:56:35.800 --> 01:56:40.439
the new religion of the future,
what the religion of tomorrow is a new

1456
01:56:40.920 --> 01:56:45.840
mythic interpretation of science and technology,
and where that can take us in regards

1457
01:56:45.920 --> 01:56:51.520
to the advancing us towards a utopian
concept like heaven. And that's really what

1458
01:56:51.640 --> 01:56:55.800
his project is. What is heaven? What is the endpoint of all this

1459
01:56:55.880 --> 01:57:00.560
stuff? He believes that being,
or what he calls the fundamental religion ground,

1460
01:57:00.079 --> 01:57:03.960
is pulling all this stuff from the
future. What does that eschaton look

1461
01:57:04.079 --> 01:57:08.279
like? He never really describes.
He uses a lot of religious language,

1462
01:57:09.399 --> 01:57:13.000
but I would say this is essentially
his project. He utilizes his four E

1463
01:57:13.279 --> 01:57:16.600
cognitive science, a lot of Heidegger, a lot of Hegel, a lot

1464
01:57:16.680 --> 01:57:21.239
of phenomenology. Neo Platonism is essential
to his work. It allows him to

1465
01:57:21.279 --> 01:57:28.039
incorporate all his Eastern mysticism and also
then bring in a sort of oh well,

1466
01:57:28.119 --> 01:57:30.359
I'm part of the history of the
philosophical tradition in the West, and

1467
01:57:30.479 --> 01:57:34.800
this is where all these thinkers are
and where all these ideas are. And

1468
01:57:34.920 --> 01:57:43.720
so therefore, by confronting the nilism
of the contemporary period, then we can

1469
01:57:44.279 --> 01:57:46.920
enter into a new state of being, of the no thingness, and somehow

1470
01:57:47.079 --> 01:57:51.800
this is equal to enlightenment. And
so his project then is to enlighten people

1471
01:57:51.880 --> 01:57:57.560
around the world, create this new
religion of tomorrow, and use science as

1472
01:57:57.600 --> 01:58:00.840
the new mythic narrative of the future. That's why he's in favor of all

1473
01:58:00.840 --> 01:58:06.119
these silicon sages. Excellent. Yeah, I didn't even I didn't before you

1474
01:58:06.239 --> 01:58:11.680
had talked about it tonight. I
wasn't aware of the whole transhumanist uh sort

1475
01:58:11.720 --> 01:58:15.720
of side of that. It's a
huge part of his project. What exactly

1476
01:58:15.920 --> 01:58:17.760
is a silicon sage is that just
like an A, a super AI.

1477
01:58:17.960 --> 01:58:23.039
What does the guy mean like walking
around with let's like neural link in their

1478
01:58:23.079 --> 01:58:28.600
head or something. Well, did
you ever see the uh the AI Jesus

1479
01:58:28.680 --> 01:58:32.399
on Twitch? Mm hmmm, so
Twitch. I think it's still up.

1480
01:58:32.920 --> 01:58:40.439
These programmers out of Germany, I
believe made a Jesus where it's a continual

1481
01:58:40.560 --> 01:58:44.520
Twitch live stream and he's just an
AI sitting there and you can type in

1482
01:58:44.720 --> 01:58:48.680
questions and then he he's like has
the data bank of like GPT four or

1483
01:58:48.760 --> 01:58:53.520
something, and then he can pull
up and reference all these questions and this

1484
01:58:53.680 --> 01:58:57.920
is Jesus. And then the way
it expresses itself is like this very pious

1485
01:58:58.079 --> 01:59:02.479
and soft, nurturing way. Okay, and so he then got into the

1486
01:59:02.600 --> 01:59:10.880
conversation. Yeah, exactly exactly.
So he then got into this conversation that

1487
01:59:10.960 --> 01:59:15.399
he believed and this is the two
recent books he just uh published with another

1488
01:59:15.479 --> 01:59:19.640
gentleman that are called Mentoring the Machine, where he believes that what we can

1489
01:59:19.720 --> 01:59:25.840
do is basically program artificial intelligence.
It's going to become synient in his worldview

1490
01:59:25.960 --> 01:59:30.520
most likely, and we can program
it to be virtuous and these will be

1491
01:59:30.640 --> 01:59:35.840
the teachers of tomorrow, both scientifically
but also spiritually. And so that's why

1492
01:59:35.880 --> 01:59:41.079
he calls them saying, we're going
to get wisdom in the future from AI

1493
01:59:41.279 --> 01:59:45.159
rather be a physical bot or some
computer program. That this is the way

1494
01:59:45.199 --> 01:59:47.039
that we're going. This is essential
to us again, the religion of tomorrow.

1495
01:59:47.479 --> 01:59:50.239
This is your priest. This is
who you're going to engage with you

1496
01:59:50.640 --> 01:59:55.319
Have you seen Have you seen THHX
one one, three eight, the classic

1497
01:59:55.399 --> 01:59:59.840
dystopian movie, No, I have
not. Okay, this is George Lucas's

1498
02:00:00.399 --> 02:00:03.960
like it's his first film, right, It's not a perfect film. It's

1499
02:00:04.039 --> 02:00:08.680
kind of slow, and it is
kind of just a mix of Brave New

1500
02:00:08.720 --> 02:00:14.399
World in nineteen eighty four. However, there's this really amazingly perceptive scene in

1501
02:00:14.520 --> 02:00:18.920
the movie where Robert Devall is the
protagonist and he's sort of the Winston who's

1502
02:00:18.960 --> 02:00:24.079
trying to wake up to the dystopia
matrix that he's in, right, and

1503
02:00:24.199 --> 02:00:29.199
he goes to an AI confessional.
Yeah, I'm serious, it's a famous

1504
02:00:29.239 --> 02:00:31.880
scene. I'll send it to you
right after this, and he sits in

1505
02:00:31.920 --> 02:00:36.720
the AI confessional and he confesses that
he's doubting the system that they live in,

1506
02:00:38.840 --> 02:00:43.279
and you know, basically the AI
Jesus talks to him there and it's

1507
02:00:43.479 --> 02:00:46.199
basically ups his meds that he's supposed
to take, right, and then it

1508
02:00:46.319 --> 02:00:50.319
has this weird blessing it's really ominous
dystopian blessing at the end. This is

1509
02:00:50.359 --> 02:00:54.880
the seventies movie, right, so
this is like late seventies THHX one,

1510
02:00:54.920 --> 02:00:59.239
one, three, eight, And
the AI goes Blessings of the State,

1511
02:01:00.039 --> 02:01:03.960
blessings of the masses. So it's
not blessings of the Fathers and Holy Spirit.

1512
02:01:04.039 --> 02:01:09.079
It's Blessings of the State, blessings
of the masses. And it's just

1513
02:01:09.279 --> 02:01:14.359
it's just crazy because what you just
described to me is literally what's in that

1514
02:01:14.560 --> 02:01:17.680
movie. So wow, I need
to watch that because that sounds like something

1515
02:01:17.760 --> 02:01:20.079
right up my alley. I haven't. I haven't seen that. It's a

1516
02:01:20.159 --> 02:01:24.199
very receptive film, but that's really
what his project is. That's why The

1517
02:01:24.239 --> 02:01:30.159
Silicon Sages is nothing to scoff at, because what he believes he's doing working

1518
02:01:30.239 --> 02:01:33.119
with the people. He says,
well, I don't have a financial investment

1519
02:01:33.319 --> 02:01:38.920
into AI artificial intelligence, but here's
what I want to do. And so

1520
02:01:39.279 --> 02:01:48.359
then his Vervaki Foundation and his larger
project is oriented around programming virtue into AI

1521
02:01:48.720 --> 02:01:54.039
so that we can then learn from
and be guided by the Silicon Sages because

1522
02:01:54.039 --> 02:01:57.359
they can process information and no way
more than you or I could. And

1523
02:01:57.439 --> 02:02:00.640
they can read all the ancient books, all the spiritual texts, everything that's

1524
02:02:00.680 --> 02:02:03.039
been written. They can they can
know all that. So then you should

1525
02:02:03.039 --> 02:02:06.319
ask them about what you should do. You should ask them about your life.

1526
02:02:06.399 --> 02:02:10.439
You should ask them about, you
know, how you should treat your

1527
02:02:10.479 --> 02:02:14.439
wife. I guess all this stuff. So I think that's a huge part

1528
02:02:14.479 --> 02:02:18.560
of his project that is really merging
in with the WEF you know, the

1529
02:02:18.560 --> 02:02:23.000
Bilderberg group, whoever you want to
call them, the globalist elites, where

1530
02:02:24.199 --> 02:02:28.359
he's a very appealing to people,
young men going through this meaning crisis going

1531
02:02:28.399 --> 02:02:31.600
through these alternative media is looking at
Peterson or even Andrew Tate or whoever it

1532
02:02:31.680 --> 02:02:39.319
is, the manosphere, but he's
basically ultimately leading you into the thing that

1533
02:02:39.399 --> 02:02:43.520
we're always warning people about, which
is the globalist, the global the new

1534
02:02:43.640 --> 02:02:46.920
global religion. Yeah, and that's
what So it just it's like, that's

1535
02:02:46.960 --> 02:02:51.159
what it is. Yeah, that's
excellent, all right, super Chatz DC

1536
02:02:51.239 --> 02:02:56.159
would working five dollars Jay. Do
you think it's a coincidence that dispensational quote

1537
02:02:56.199 --> 02:03:00.319
theology gained popularity through the Schofield Study
Bible around the same time as Balfour No.

1538
02:03:00.479 --> 02:03:04.880
In fact, I've talked about that
on podcasts for many years, probably

1539
02:03:04.920 --> 02:03:11.319
going back about seven or eight years. But you have to keep in mind

1540
02:03:11.359 --> 02:03:14.760
too that a lot of people don't
know that Schofield Study Bible was printed and

1541
02:03:14.840 --> 02:03:19.119
it's still printed by Oxford University,
So Oxford Press. Yeah, Oxford Press

1542
02:03:19.279 --> 02:03:25.000
is who printed and pushed that in
not just England but throughout the West.

1543
02:03:25.640 --> 02:03:28.039
And that was a top down project. I believe that was part of the

1544
02:03:28.199 --> 02:03:35.359
British imperial project to influence America into
dispensationalism because of course Lord Ralph Child and

1545
02:03:36.039 --> 02:03:40.840
so forth, we're behind the Balfour
declaration. Thank you for all that you

1546
02:03:40.960 --> 02:03:45.039
and DPHD. Do you have any
plans to do a dispensationalist stream. I've

1547
02:03:45.079 --> 02:03:48.800
done two streams in the past critiquing
dispensationalism. If you type in jade,

1548
02:03:48.800 --> 02:03:53.159
I are com a dispensationalism, they
should come up. One of them was

1549
02:03:53.239 --> 02:03:59.720
a critique of Catholic and dispensational ideas, and then another one was just about

1550
02:03:59.760 --> 02:04:02.960
this stational stuff on a long Q
and A. But I could do another

1551
02:04:03.039 --> 02:04:06.199
one. Help me understand three dollars? Well, Tina says that the one

1552
02:04:06.359 --> 02:04:13.199
is pure relation and understood is as
this relation is love, which has ontological

1553
02:04:13.279 --> 02:04:16.159
existence and binds the intellect to it. If God the Father's love, could

1554
02:04:16.199 --> 02:04:21.039
we say that his love for the
other persons has its own ontology. Well,

1555
02:04:21.119 --> 02:04:27.800
first of all, we do not
accept the Plutonian Phillyoquay argument. There.

1556
02:04:27.880 --> 02:04:31.159
In fact, when Augustin in on
the Trinity makes some of his Phillioquay

1557
02:04:31.239 --> 02:04:35.760
arguments, some of their actually some
of them are actually copied from I think

1558
02:04:35.800 --> 02:04:40.319
A needed four or five, and
we don't believe that. So we do

1559
02:04:40.479 --> 02:04:45.600
not believe that God is pure relation. First of all, for us,

1560
02:04:45.840 --> 02:04:49.399
the One is not an abstraction.
It is the Father. Go back to

1561
02:04:49.560 --> 02:04:54.520
last night's or whenever it was the
night before with doctor bo Branson, the

1562
02:04:54.640 --> 02:05:00.720
totality that whole discourse was about the
monarchia of the Father. So orthodox theology

1563
02:05:00.800 --> 02:05:04.279
is not like perennialism, and it's
not like Platonism. It doesn't start with

1564
02:05:05.119 --> 02:05:09.479
the One or the monad as an
essence, as an abstraction, or as

1565
02:05:09.720 --> 02:05:13.199
pure nothingness or up. It rown
begins with the person of the Father.

1566
02:05:14.680 --> 02:05:18.039
Secondly, love is an energy common
to all three hypostases. It is not

1567
02:05:18.399 --> 02:05:24.760
the Father and the Son, as
the logos is not. We wouldn't equate

1568
02:05:24.880 --> 02:05:28.600
that to intellects. In other words, the logos is a second person in

1569
02:05:28.640 --> 02:05:34.720
the Godhead. He manifests the reasoning
of the Father. But mind or reasoning

1570
02:05:34.920 --> 02:05:38.479
is common to all three persons,
just like Will. It's common to all

1571
02:05:38.520 --> 02:05:42.279
three persons. So God the Father
is not an attribute. So long story

1572
02:05:42.319 --> 02:05:46.680
short, you can't collapse person and
energy or attribute in trinitarian theology. Doctor

1573
02:05:46.720 --> 02:05:54.720
Chilling five dollars message to Davy bone
cancer, how how dare you? I

1574
02:05:54.760 --> 02:05:57.079
don't know what that means, but
thank you for the super chat. Bone

1575
02:05:57.119 --> 02:06:00.800
Man five thirty eight hundred dollars.
Wow, thank you, infest. I

1576
02:06:00.840 --> 02:06:04.720
will be sharing these with Kotel,
So thank you for the superchest. Thank

1577
02:06:04.760 --> 02:06:09.039
you for what you do. I
think the shaman could be a very valuable

1578
02:06:09.199 --> 02:06:14.920
archetype. Well in a lot of
senses. I mean, you could use

1579
02:06:15.039 --> 02:06:19.479
the shaman in the history of religion, you could use the shaman in literature.

1580
02:06:20.239 --> 02:06:25.239
And the way Verveiki described the shaman
is kind of he says, the

1581
02:06:25.319 --> 02:06:28.479
prophet is the same thing, right, So an Old Testament prophet to him

1582
02:06:28.600 --> 02:06:31.079
is equivalent to a shaman. So
he's just kind of taking like the religious

1583
02:06:31.159 --> 02:06:36.680
preacher figure and kind of encapsulating them
all as the shaman. Looking at the

1584
02:06:36.760 --> 02:06:43.439
Hebrew word shah, it usually references
sin or evil. Well, I mean,

1585
02:06:43.720 --> 02:06:47.319
I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but
just because the phonetics of shah in

1586
02:06:47.439 --> 02:06:53.680
Hebrew is that it doesn't necessitate that
a shaman, which I don't know,

1587
02:06:53.920 --> 02:06:58.800
I don't know what religion, what
etymology. I believe it's Tiberian the word

1588
02:06:59.079 --> 02:07:05.199
the word for a shah, shaman
comes from anglicization of like their they believed

1589
02:07:05.239 --> 02:07:09.680
that the shaman was like the man
of the sun, so it had to

1590
02:07:09.720 --> 02:07:13.319
do with like Sunman. So it's
not the Hebrew usage of the term.

1591
02:07:13.520 --> 02:07:20.960
No, it came from Siberia,
Siberian Amanita, Mascaria tribes. Bone Man

1592
02:07:21.079 --> 02:07:26.920
says, the emphasis on the practice
of aeviation seems similar to the original temptation

1593
02:07:27.279 --> 02:07:30.119
in the Garden of the fruit.
I think you could make that argument.

1594
02:07:30.159 --> 02:07:34.920
What would you say to a parallel
between say, the sacrament of you know,

1595
02:07:36.359 --> 02:07:42.000
well, actually Huxley calls them sacraments, like he thinks that LSD and

1596
02:07:42.039 --> 02:07:45.960
streams are sacraments, and could this
be an analog to the fruit in the

1597
02:07:45.000 --> 02:07:49.520
garden. Well, Terence McKinnon was
explicit that that's what he believed, and

1598
02:07:49.600 --> 02:07:53.960
that's why he promoted gnosticism, is
that he's like, well, you see,

1599
02:07:53.960 --> 02:07:57.239
the Gnostics got it right because they
venerate Eve, which again much of

1600
02:07:57.319 --> 02:08:01.479
this world view venerates goddesses and stuff
like that, Eve to a to a

1601
02:08:01.560 --> 02:08:09.199
status of as a liberator that they
take basically this idea that they would call

1602
02:08:09.279 --> 02:08:13.000
the Judeo Christian God, this is
their words. I wouldn't frame it that

1603
02:08:13.079 --> 02:08:18.399
way, but that he is a
dominator, he's egoic, he's egotistical.

1604
02:08:18.479 --> 02:08:22.760
And so what Eve did and the
promise of the serpent to become godlike by

1605
02:08:22.800 --> 02:08:26.279
eating something. This is liberatory and
this is what then we all need to

1606
02:08:26.319 --> 02:08:30.399
do, and this is what psychedelics
do. So many people in the psychedelic

1607
02:08:30.439 --> 02:08:35.439
community would argue that, oh yeah, the myth of Adam and Eve eating

1608
02:08:35.640 --> 02:08:39.000
and Eve eating from the tree of
knowledge, that's exactly what psychedelics are.

1609
02:08:39.439 --> 02:08:48.760
And that's where when you get into
like I said, these these frescoes in

1610
02:08:48.880 --> 02:08:52.079
southern Europe, again there's the eminem
a scurity mushroom. You can find these

1611
02:08:52.159 --> 02:08:56.000
depictions like right here, this is
in plain Caralt, France. This is

1612
02:08:56.079 --> 02:09:01.560
a hospital, large church. Knights
of the hospital ours they built this and

1613
02:09:01.680 --> 02:09:05.680
what was to say, Well,
clearly it's a mushroom, and even Adam

1614
02:09:05.720 --> 02:09:09.479
are covering themselves with mushroom caps.
Now I've done. This is what I've

1615
02:09:09.479 --> 02:09:18.520
written about is that I believe much
of the the cathars and the hospital ares

1616
02:09:20.199 --> 02:09:24.640
these knights that went into the Holy
Land during the Crusades. They encountered these

1617
02:09:24.680 --> 02:09:28.800
gnostic rituals and they brought them back. So when we look at these churches

1618
02:09:28.880 --> 02:09:33.960
that are all again contextually within the
same historical period, they are reinterpreting what

1619
02:09:35.079 --> 02:09:39.359
the Eucharist is, how you commune
with God, and what the original fall

1620
02:09:39.520 --> 02:09:43.800
is about from a Gnostic perspective,
and they are psychedelics into that. So

1621
02:09:43.960 --> 02:09:50.520
I think I think it's it's very
plausible from a Gnostic framework. Our framework

1622
02:09:50.640 --> 02:09:54.720
is Orthodox. The is the absolute
inverse of that. Yeah, exactly.

1623
02:09:54.960 --> 02:10:01.960
I forgot that the McKenna says that
because I've read that. Andy Huxley says

1624
02:10:01.960 --> 02:10:05.000
it as well. In fact,
Huxley believed that at the end of Doors

1625
02:10:05.039 --> 02:10:09.319
of Perception. He says that he
hopes that the religion that would really be

1626
02:10:09.479 --> 02:10:15.840
the future American religion would be the
Native American Church because he thinks that they

1627
02:10:15.880 --> 02:10:20.159
would actually have peotia as a sacrament
and that everybody could be initiated if they

1628
02:10:20.239 --> 02:10:24.479
joined, you know, the Native
American Church eventually. I'll remind you guys

1629
02:10:24.520 --> 02:10:28.399
too that we have a show sponsor, and the show sponsor is Chalk dot

1630
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and it includes Oshawagonda. So head
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1642
02:11:18.720 --> 02:11:22.199
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get fifty percent off as well as the

1643
02:11:22.239 --> 02:11:26.159
promo code J five to three life. That's J five three L I f

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E to get fifty three percent off
all recurring subscriptions over at Chalk dot com.

1645
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And I know that once you get
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the regular, So just use that
JAY fifty three Life Bmax nineteen sixty six

1647
02:11:39.399 --> 02:11:43.800
awesome video. Thank you so much, BMX Tyler five dollars. Can you

1648
02:11:43.880 --> 02:11:50.319
point me to or do a slow
boy explanation of Nick Land's concept of hyperstition,

1649
02:11:50.479 --> 02:11:58.439
zeno demons and cybernetics. What in
tarnation? So I'll let Cotel answer

1650
02:11:58.479 --> 02:12:01.199
if he has anything on Nick And
I don't know about Nick Land. I've

1651
02:12:01.279 --> 02:12:07.520
only listened to our buddies over at
Syop Cinema do some discussions about Nick Land.

1652
02:12:07.600 --> 02:12:15.520
And I think our buddy over the
British British podcaster guy that we we've

1653
02:12:15.600 --> 02:12:20.840
done podcasts with. I just went
blank. He just had Nick Land on,

1654
02:12:22.239 --> 02:12:26.199
so that would probably be a good
He's gonna hope he doesn't. I

1655
02:12:26.239 --> 02:12:31.119
hope it don't. Don't be pissed
off. I just went blank on our

1656
02:12:31.199 --> 02:12:37.640
buddy, our buddies podcast, Scott
uh Manyon, Scott Manyon's podcast. He

1657
02:12:37.840 --> 02:12:43.119
just had Nick Land on, So
go check out Scott Manyon. Let me

1658
02:12:43.199 --> 02:12:48.399
put that link in the chat.
Yeah, that's pulled it up. I'll

1659
02:12:48.479 --> 02:12:50.920
check it out. I know of
Nick Land, but I've never listened to

1660
02:12:52.039 --> 02:12:56.239
him talk or anything. I really
don't know much of his ideas other than

1661
02:12:56.359 --> 02:13:01.720
he's a promoter of transhumanism, isn't
I'm not actually sure. I started this

1662
02:13:01.840 --> 02:13:05.119
podcast. I'm about five minutes into
it and I had to go, so

1663
02:13:05.239 --> 02:13:07.840
I didn't actually finish it. So
for those in the chat, here is

1664
02:13:09.000 --> 02:13:13.000
the Nick Land interview with our buddy
Scott Manion, so you guys can check

1665
02:13:13.039 --> 02:13:16.159
that out over there. Let's see
double o Honeybee ten dollars. Thank you

1666
02:13:16.239 --> 02:13:20.319
so much, Honeybee, longtime regular
super chatter. We appreciate that as well

1667
02:13:20.359 --> 02:13:24.960
as our good buddy bone Man five
thirty eight twenty bucks. I think that

1668
02:13:24.119 --> 02:13:30.399
they get us to presuppose anthropology so
that we our we are our minds,

1669
02:13:31.239 --> 02:13:35.760
and then we mind them while they
mind us out of our genuine person So

1670
02:13:35.800 --> 02:13:43.319
he's basically saying that we get reduced
to just being mines and they mine usne

1671
02:13:43.840 --> 02:13:48.560
out of a having genuine person.
I think that's absolutely correct. Yeah,

1672
02:13:48.840 --> 02:13:52.960
agreed, Agreed, because the ultimately
spiritual war and giving up the I always

1673
02:13:52.000 --> 02:13:56.760
talked about giving up the image of
God, your true personhood. That's the

1674
02:13:56.840 --> 02:14:00.239
name of the game. Whether it
be you know, cutting off your testicles,

1675
02:14:00.239 --> 02:14:07.000
are blending with a machine, it's
the same thing exactly snapping like you

1676
02:14:07.199 --> 02:14:11.199
fabo one dollar, what chain are
you rocking? Jay? What's your watch?

1677
02:14:11.760 --> 02:14:15.680
So this is just a pukashell necklace
that we bought as a joke because

1678
02:14:15.680 --> 02:14:18.920
I'm in Florida and I thought that
it's I felt like the nineties because they

1679
02:14:18.960 --> 02:14:22.520
used to have a pukashell necklace in
the nineties, and people are like,

1680
02:14:22.640 --> 02:14:28.079
whatn't you wear the cross because the
necklace that I had, I had an

1681
02:14:28.119 --> 02:14:31.199
issue with it, and I have
not gotten a new gold necklace yet,

1682
02:14:31.720 --> 02:14:37.199
and so I don't have a chain
that fits my cross. So the watch

1683
02:14:37.479 --> 02:14:41.359
is Mavado that I got a couple
of years ago. So Temple hagro ten

1684
02:14:41.439 --> 02:14:48.479
dollars perennialist. The perennialism in Peterson
is revealed in his interview with Joe Rogan,

1685
02:14:48.520 --> 02:14:54.239
where the discuss the use of psilocybin, mushrooms and Kundalini yoga to achieve

1686
02:14:54.319 --> 02:14:58.479
attachment to a spiritual world. You
should give it a listen. I've not

1687
02:14:58.520 --> 02:15:01.680
actually heard this, have you.
I know people are into that well,

1688
02:15:01.720 --> 02:15:03.199
even Connor Murphy. That was part
of the when he first got into the

1689
02:15:03.239 --> 02:15:07.159
psychedelics. He would get these new
age girls. They would take drugs and

1690
02:15:07.199 --> 02:15:11.399
then they would sit with their let's
just say, with their legs open,

1691
02:15:11.600 --> 02:15:16.600
very very close towards each other,
holding each other, and then stereog eat

1692
02:15:16.640 --> 02:15:20.560
each other's eyes, and they believe
this was part of the rising of the

1693
02:15:20.640 --> 02:15:24.359
Kundalini energy. They would practice Kundelini
yoga, all types of stuff. So,

1694
02:15:24.319 --> 02:15:28.840
uh, it's fairly common. I
know Aubrey Marcus is somebody who's interested

1695
02:15:28.920 --> 02:15:33.720
in this type of stuff. So
getting you know, getting an altered states

1696
02:15:33.760 --> 02:15:39.079
and doing Kundelini yoga activating your chakra
systems very common in the New Age.

1697
02:15:39.399 --> 02:15:43.079
Uh. And I would point people
towards probably Aubrey Marcus as the biggest promoter

1698
02:15:43.199 --> 02:15:46.159
of this stuff. Yeah, I
just temple hat girl. I know Jordan

1699
02:15:46.159 --> 02:15:50.479
Peterson has been on Joe Rogan many
men, many times. So if you

1700
02:15:50.520 --> 02:15:54.079
would just you know, dm me
that one or something, because I would

1701
02:15:54.119 --> 02:16:01.279
be interested in specifically the discussion of
the perennialist elements in that talk. Five

1702
02:16:01.520 --> 02:16:05.439
sends five dollars. What is your
explanation to an army that says, how

1703
02:16:05.479 --> 02:16:09.880
come God doesn't just destroy Satan there
would be no suffering. A lot of

1704
02:16:09.920 --> 02:16:13.880
people seem to think that God and
Satan are equals. Well, God doesn't

1705
02:16:13.920 --> 02:16:18.159
tell us all of the reasons why
he permits things to occur. If you

1706
02:16:18.239 --> 02:16:22.880
read the Book of Job it's really
geared towards you as an ancient wisdom text

1707
02:16:24.560 --> 02:16:30.479
giving you the level of explanation that
humans can have. So basically, the

1708
02:16:30.520 --> 02:16:33.639
point of the Book of Job is
that because we're finite, we can't really

1709
02:16:33.719 --> 02:16:39.399
even conceive of all the potentialities and
possibilities of what God could and couldn't allow

1710
02:16:39.559 --> 02:16:45.200
and why and how He's allowed evil. So basically the answer is that in

1711
02:16:45.360 --> 02:16:48.520
our finite state we can't grasp it. So I think that, to me

1712
02:16:48.959 --> 02:16:56.760
is a good enough explanation, because
if the expectation is that any worldview is

1713
02:16:56.920 --> 02:17:01.319
going to give an exhaustive explanation for
good and evil, no worldview can do

1714
02:17:01.440 --> 02:17:05.239
that, So that's actually an impossible
expectation. But the best that we can

1715
02:17:05.319 --> 02:17:09.280
hope for is that within our world
view, we do have a basis for

1716
02:17:09.520 --> 02:17:13.680
good and evil, and that's good
enough. And it's not there's no God's

1717
02:17:13.719 --> 02:17:16.879
not bound by any rule or law
that he has to tell us as creatures

1718
02:17:18.879 --> 02:17:22.040
why ultimately he permits it. It's
good enough that we know that there is

1719
02:17:22.120 --> 02:17:24.479
good and there is evil. So
most world religions can't even give you an

1720
02:17:24.479 --> 02:17:28.959
account for good and evil, So
I'd say we're one up already, and

1721
02:17:30.120 --> 02:17:33.479
no, Satan is not equal to
God. He is a created angelic being,

1722
02:17:33.639 --> 02:17:39.319
so it's not at all equal.
Big big seven foot, five dollars.

1723
02:17:41.319 --> 02:17:43.040
All right, I'm not going to
read that one. That was a

1724
02:17:43.079 --> 02:17:46.840
little much, but thank you for
that big seven foot. I appreciate it.

1725
02:17:46.959 --> 02:17:50.840
Storm the Cat ten dollars, cool
video, and I'm not trying to

1726
02:17:50.840 --> 02:17:52.959
be reade to you a big seven
foot It's just I don't want to get

1727
02:17:52.040 --> 02:17:56.600
controversial and get anybody mad about those
comments. But thank you for that.

1728
02:17:56.719 --> 02:18:03.360
I appreciate it. And Coteldph good
buddy. Remind everybody about your channel,

1729
02:18:03.440 --> 02:18:07.360
where they can find you and what
you got coming up. Yeah, you

1730
02:18:07.440 --> 02:18:11.159
guys can find me over at Church
of the Eternal Logos or search David Patrick

1731
02:18:11.200 --> 02:18:15.959
Harry and now I've turned an old
YouTube channel to a clips channel. You

1732
02:18:16.000 --> 02:18:20.639
can find me on Instagram at dp
H A R R Y. And I

1733
02:18:20.799 --> 02:18:24.840
got a handful of streams coming up. I'll be doing an introduction into Zorastrianism

1734
02:18:26.399 --> 02:18:31.120
and comparing that with Orthodoxy, and
yeah, handful of streams coming up.

1735
02:18:31.159 --> 02:18:35.200
We do open panels, so if
anybody wants to hop on one day and

1736
02:18:35.360 --> 02:18:39.520
give your opinion on whatever topic.
We just did one on stopping the American

1737
02:18:39.600 --> 02:18:46.120
war machine. Anybody is always welcome
on whether you agree or not, as

1738
02:18:46.200 --> 02:18:48.680
long as it's a cordial and respectful
conversation, so you can find me there.

1739
02:18:50.760 --> 02:18:52.120
Thanks again for having me on,
Jay, I appreciate it absolutely.

1740
02:18:52.159 --> 02:18:58.319
I want to remind everybuddy too that
we also have our sister podcast over here

1741
02:18:58.639 --> 02:19:05.559
at Rockfin which is Grand Theft World. Our good buddy Richard Grove is over

1742
02:19:05.600 --> 02:19:09.680
there killing it as you can see
here in this example, they did a

1743
02:19:11.600 --> 02:19:18.079
seven and a half hour breakdown of
all of the recent drama revolving around the

1744
02:19:18.360 --> 02:19:22.399
history of things going on in the
Middle East. And if you head on

1745
02:19:22.440 --> 02:19:26.799
over to Rockfinn or Okafin, you
can subscribe to Grand Theft World. Right

1746
02:19:26.879 --> 02:19:31.719
there at our buddies podcast, Richard
Grove has a amazing resource. It goes

1747
02:19:31.799 --> 02:19:35.040
way back years of podcasting, all
the way back into Tragy and Hope.

1748
02:19:35.559 --> 02:19:39.600
The breakdowns that he did very similar
to the breakdowns that I've done over on

1749
02:19:39.680 --> 02:19:41.479
my channel. So there's Richard's link
right there. Be sure and subscribe to

1750
02:19:43.000 --> 02:19:46.520
Grand Theft World, and also remember
to head on over to the link that

1751
02:19:46.559 --> 02:19:50.440
we have right here where Richard is
still offering his new course over at University

1752
02:19:50.479 --> 02:19:58.639
of Reason on becoming sufficient, self
sufficient as an entrepreneur as a business owner.

1753
02:19:58.479 --> 02:20:01.920
How to go about that? What
are the steps that you want to

1754
02:20:01.120 --> 02:20:05.920
kind of engage in to move into
being independent and being your own boss?

1755
02:20:07.520 --> 02:20:09.840
And I really appreciate that Richard is
one of the few people out there that

1756
02:20:11.000 --> 02:20:18.639
is still thinking about equipping young guys
and women too in terms of becoming apart

1757
02:20:18.719 --> 02:20:22.239
from the system, basically having your
own thing going. If you want to

1758
02:20:22.319 --> 02:20:24.399
be, for example, a homesteader, right, a lot of people in

1759
02:20:24.440 --> 02:20:28.479
our circles want to have a homestead
that kind of a thing. Maybe you

1760
02:20:28.559 --> 02:20:31.520
want to run a business from your
homestead. Richard can help you figure out

1761
02:20:31.600 --> 02:20:37.280
how to go about that process because
Richard, of course himself is a successful

1762
02:20:37.559 --> 02:20:41.879
personal business owner. Storm of the
Cat sins, excuse me, Ac,

1763
02:20:41.239 --> 02:20:46.079
since some more We got a couple
more super chats here, Ac says,

1764
02:20:46.159 --> 02:20:50.879
and thank you. Ac of course
is our sponsor for tonight's dream, he

1765
02:20:50.959 --> 02:20:54.079
says. Many are pushing for Vervaki
to meet up with David Bentley hart Ough

1766
02:20:54.680 --> 02:21:05.319
Ikes, who has met with Ian
Gilchrist Vervek's works. Verbake works with an

1767
02:21:05.479 --> 02:21:11.920
esoteric so called orthodox Peter Limberg who
runs STOA. These acumenists are already using

1768
02:21:11.040 --> 02:21:18.200
these in DC Shindler terms like the
left hemisphere. I don't know the STOA

1769
02:21:18.280 --> 02:21:20.879
guy. I think they invited me
on there, and I didn't know about

1770
02:21:20.879 --> 02:21:24.159
it. I just got busy.
I wasn't trying to ignore them, but

1771
02:21:24.239 --> 02:21:30.200
I didn't. I weren't aware that
that he was an orthodox esotericist. But

1772
02:21:30.760 --> 02:21:33.159
yeah, I think David Bentley hardcourse
is very bad news. He's now openly

1773
02:21:33.280 --> 02:21:37.680
basically you know, he had a
blog post last year where he basically said

1774
02:21:37.719 --> 02:21:41.520
that he doesn't mind being just called
a perennialist now, so he's kind of

1775
02:21:41.639 --> 02:21:48.719
he's kind of okay with no longer
really identifying as traditionally actually orthodized, and

1776
02:21:48.799 --> 02:21:52.680
everybody knows that, you know.
He basically adopts a universalist attitude, collapsing

1777
02:21:52.799 --> 02:21:58.000
nature into person. And because he
does that, he then thinks that everybody

1778
02:21:58.079 --> 02:22:03.639
will be because everybody's resurrect that everybody's
safe, all right, So thank you

1779
02:22:03.760 --> 02:22:05.000
guys. Uh, that's the lit