1 00:00:50,560 --> 00:02:02,519 In the space. All right, what's up everybody. We've got our good 2 00:02:02,599 --> 00:02:07,000 buddy, David Patrick Carey, Church of the Eternal Logos, joins me tonight 3 00:02:07,479 --> 00:02:14,039 to do this sponsored stream. Shout out to our bro AC for this collab 4 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:17,719 sponsored stream. We're going to be getting into the philosophy and the thought of 5 00:02:19,599 --> 00:02:23,840 Professor John Vervake, and a lot of this is very new to me, 6 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,400 so I've been diving into it this week. I have had a chance to 7 00:02:27,439 --> 00:02:34,280 get pretty deep into his podcasts, and David sent me one of his papers 8 00:02:34,280 --> 00:02:38,759 that he's recently written about non being and neoplatonism. So we're going to talk 9 00:02:38,759 --> 00:02:40,039 about some of that. We're also going to talk about how it relates to 10 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:46,840 transhumanism. And before we get all the tell all that though, I want 11 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:53,800 David to give us kind of his background story about how he thinks all of 12 00:02:53,840 --> 00:02:58,719 this became really popular in the last five, six, seven years, because 13 00:02:58,719 --> 00:03:01,639 I think his his track of the events and how they occurred as a really 14 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:07,280 good summation of how we got to this point of what Verveiki calls the meaning 15 00:03:07,319 --> 00:03:13,240 crisis, and how key figures like you know, Trump and Jordan Peterson, 16 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,439 you know, played a big role in that, So thank you for coming 17 00:03:15,479 --> 00:03:19,240 on, David, and tell us how you think this came to be so 18 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:32,840 popular. This is tied with the Jordan Peterson phenomenon, which is really inescapable. 19 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,599 When you start getting into these conversations about meaning and even masculinity, we 20 00:03:38,599 --> 00:03:40,680 see the rise of the manosphere. That was the last one we did, 21 00:03:40,759 --> 00:03:47,039 was talking about the manosphere stuff. And so in twenty sixteen especially, we 22 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:53,240 can see this massive transformation and what exactly is the counterculture with the Donald Trump 23 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:57,919 phenomenon. So twenty fifteen he goes down the escalator. He's now running for 24 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:03,520 president and right around the time Jordan Peterson resists, was at bill C sixteen 25 00:04:03,719 --> 00:04:10,319 in Canada. That was demanding people talk about pronouns and recognizing people's pronouns. 26 00:04:10,919 --> 00:04:14,039 This was, you know, going all over social media. And then I 27 00:04:14,039 --> 00:04:16,920 think a few months later he's brought on Joe Rogan and that's when Jordan Peterson 28 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:21,600 emerges as Jordan Peterson. Meanwhile, he had been posting videos for years up 29 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:27,120 to that point, and he had had multiple conversations with Jean Verbaki, both 30 00:04:27,120 --> 00:04:32,199 of which are professors at Toronto, the University of Toronto. And so this 31 00:04:32,399 --> 00:04:39,920 meaning crisis or this Jordan Peterson phenomenon post twenty sixteen, seventeen eighteen nineteen. 32 00:04:40,399 --> 00:04:46,680 It's this huge phenomenon of people now looking at symbolic understandings, dealing with meaning, 33 00:04:46,879 --> 00:04:51,079 recognizing this nihilism in the Western world. And I think that's why Jordan 34 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:57,720 Peterson was so appealing for young men, is that one he's justifying much of 35 00:04:57,759 --> 00:05:02,199 the problems and concerns they have with the contemporary world. But he's also then 36 00:05:02,319 --> 00:05:05,759 talking about meaning and what it means to be a man and putting your life 37 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:12,079 together, finding purpose, and so John Vervaki and him have had multiple conversations. 38 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:16,560 I was always more knowledgeable of the Peterson phenomenon, but through AC in 39 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,639 the last like six months have got me watching and reading more of Vervaiki, 40 00:05:23,199 --> 00:05:28,879 and it's really interesting to see how their projects overlap. Verveak, I think 41 00:05:28,920 --> 00:05:32,319 his is much more explicit in regarding the building of a religion of tomorrow, 42 00:05:32,319 --> 00:05:36,560 which he literally is explicit about in some of his dreams. Jordan Peterson, 43 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:43,319 unlike Verveake, is much more focused on this utilization of Christian symbolism, the 44 00:05:43,399 --> 00:05:46,879 Bible and this type of thing, and that's what I think gave young men 45 00:05:47,199 --> 00:05:54,519 a new perspective on Western culture, Christian heritage, Christian values, and allowed 46 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:59,079 young men to sort of have a new identity and in recognition to this meaningst 47 00:05:59,399 --> 00:06:02,959 crisis, where what exactly are you standing up for as a Western man per 48 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:09,839 se. So I think that that generally lays out how this phenomenon emerged. 49 00:06:09,879 --> 00:06:15,120 We see Pagio really blew up through Peterson, and then the manosphere has always 50 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,160 existed and they've been blogging for you know, the last like fifteen years, 51 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:23,199 but I would say the manosphere has dramatically increased again due to the Jordan Peterson 52 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:28,000 phenomenon. Yeah, it seems like the Peterson kind of prepped the way for 53 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:31,079 Manosphere and then it kind of took on a life of its own because like 54 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:39,639 there's old Canadian TV access like that. You can find interviews of Peterson where 55 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:45,680 he's saying stuff, you know, kind of men's rights, migtile even ish 56 00:06:45,759 --> 00:06:50,040 type stuff way back a long time ago, maybe even fifteen fifteen, sixteen 57 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:55,800 years ago. So I'm not saying that necessarily it was intentional. I'm just 58 00:06:55,839 --> 00:06:59,600 saying that Peterson, you know, sort of blows up and then what was 59 00:06:59,639 --> 00:07:02,680 there was already a manosphere, but it kind of like allowed the manosphere to 60 00:07:02,759 --> 00:07:08,560 speak even louder and kind of go off into its own directions of in cell 61 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:13,480 migtel, red pill, you know, all of those different variations and schisms 62 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:18,560 that it went into. But yeah, and so so Verveki as an academic 63 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:25,680 then appears to kind of bring the bridge maybe to Eastern philosophy into a lot 64 00:07:25,680 --> 00:07:30,879 of I mean, I don't know that he's I'm not accusing him of being 65 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,000 a new Ager, but as I listened to the podcast, it's obviously very 66 00:07:34,519 --> 00:07:39,399 you know, Buddhist centric, it's very focused on a lot of far Eastern 67 00:07:39,439 --> 00:07:45,720 philosophy. So maybe that's the bridge to you know, Oriental philosophy perhaps through 68 00:07:45,800 --> 00:07:51,680 Vervaki. Right well, and at a philosophical level, Verveki clearly his number 69 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,480 one spiritual foundation right now is neo Platonism, right, and he uses that 70 00:07:57,519 --> 00:08:01,240 to have one foot into the Christian world. Talks a lot about Christian neil 71 00:08:01,279 --> 00:08:07,160 Platonists, but I think that appeals to that that monism of neil Platonism appeals 72 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,920 to the Eastern mystical mind. And so whether he's talking about Proclus or whatever, 73 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:18,800 Neil Platonic thinker He's very much interested in sort of the apaphatic nature of 74 00:08:18,839 --> 00:08:24,800 God and tying this into this no thingness or this nothingness within Eastern mysticism and 75 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:28,600 trying to highlight well, these are different understandings, are sort of saying the 76 00:08:28,639 --> 00:08:33,279 same thing. But the West isn't equipped with facing the nothingness. And so 77 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:37,639 this is where he would give credit to Nietzsche for recognizing the neihilism that was 78 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:43,039 approaching of Western society. But then he refers back to this sort of Buddhist 79 00:08:43,039 --> 00:08:54,639 scholar Nishanti about that the West doesn't have the philosophical tools to face the nothingness, 80 00:08:54,679 --> 00:08:58,759 and this is what his project is trying to do is prepare people to 81 00:08:58,399 --> 00:09:03,240 face and confront this and this is sort of a phenomenological, psychological, spiritual 82 00:09:03,279 --> 00:09:09,399 development of oneself and how they can move into this new future state where you've 83 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:13,639 confronted the nihilism of the world, but now you're finding deeper meaning. And 84 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:18,200 this is basically his response to this meaning crisis. Well, before that's before 85 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,159 we get to that, because I do have a lot I want to say 86 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:24,639 on that topic, because I'm noticing us in going through his podcast that that 87 00:09:26,279 --> 00:09:30,080 I think what's going on here is that he sees himself as a kind of 88 00:09:31,240 --> 00:09:35,039 shaman that will be the person or could be a person or one of the 89 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:39,759 key figures that functions as one of these turning point figures. He uses his 90 00:09:39,879 --> 00:09:45,240 term quite a bit in I think the third or fourth episode of the Christis 91 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:48,399 Meaning podcast where he talks about the turning points. He was a lot of 92 00:09:48,440 --> 00:09:54,759 emphasis, for example, on the transition of the ancient world into the period 93 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:58,639 when writing developed and this was a turning point. And then then we get 94 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,360 the period of like you know, the end of the Paleolithic era, when 95 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:07,519 we get you know, weapons and tools and things being invented, and these 96 00:10:07,559 --> 00:10:11,480 are turning points. And then he talks about how we got to get into 97 00:10:11,519 --> 00:10:15,559 some of the terminology that he uses because it's really important axaptation, and this 98 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:24,600 is an idea from biology where he sees the evolutionary model basically taking on a 99 00:10:24,639 --> 00:10:31,200 new tool and then that member of the species adapts that tool, and typically 100 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:33,279 it's something biological, like a mutation, but he's saying no, it can 101 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:39,559 also be a mental thing where we adapt something, we take on this new 102 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:43,960 tool set, and this can then allow a new phase of reality, a 103 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:48,639 new phase of civilization, or whatever. One of those adaptations or one of 104 00:10:48,639 --> 00:10:52,360 these tools that he talks about is writing and abstract thinking. So he does 105 00:10:52,399 --> 00:10:58,840 a lot of it, has a lot of discussion of that. But just 106 00:10:58,919 --> 00:11:01,039 on the on the account of his his approach to the ancient world, I 107 00:11:01,039 --> 00:11:03,879 immediately noticed a lot of crawl young. He admits this too, because he 108 00:11:03,919 --> 00:11:09,240 says, look the ancient world. He says, why do you think of 109 00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:11,200 You know, when you think about the ancient world, you only think of 110 00:11:11,279 --> 00:11:15,960 like Greeks or the Egyptians. Maybe, he says, you don't think back 111 00:11:16,000 --> 00:11:20,399 to beyond that, and you don't think too like Babylon. You don't think 112 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,440 to that. Why is that? And he says, because you're kind of 113 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:28,600 conditioned to think of certain cultures in the ancient world as the ones that you're 114 00:11:28,600 --> 00:11:35,240 supposed to look to. But maybe even older cultures had this remnant notion of 115 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:41,919 the golden age of the gods, or the primeval world or the you know, 116 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:46,919 the Elysian fields, this super perfect state that we want to try to 117 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:50,320 get back into because the gods have that more powerful status, that's where they're 118 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:56,759 coming out of. We've gotten into some lower state of consciousness, and so 119 00:11:56,840 --> 00:12:01,240 we want to try to engage in projects, or he even calls them psychotechnologies, 120 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:07,559 and he thinks of the shaman as kind of like the essential psycho technician, 121 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:13,240 right, which is able to get back into that's primal state, but 122 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:16,080 in the here and the now. So do you have any comments on that? 123 00:12:16,639 --> 00:12:20,759 No, I think that's exactly part of his project. And the shaman 124 00:12:20,639 --> 00:12:26,559 is perfect because he's again this whole project is both abstract but then imminent. 125 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:31,559 And so the utilization of these psychedelics allows the shaman to go into these spiritual 126 00:12:31,639 --> 00:12:37,559 realms to find deeper meaning in the lived experience of reality. It's communal, 127 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,799 he acts within a community, and so all these things are working with his 128 00:12:41,919 --> 00:12:48,000 general project. So yeah, I totally see the exact same things. And 129 00:12:48,879 --> 00:12:54,679 the shaman, generally speaking we've seen in these alternative forms of spirituality, is 130 00:12:54,720 --> 00:13:00,559 an idealized figure. You actually read some of Eliod's stuff on shamanism and the 131 00:13:00,639 --> 00:13:05,679 archaic techniques of ecstasy. You know, shaman's practice a wide variety of different 132 00:13:05,759 --> 00:13:11,279 belief systems, and some of them are from a Christian perspective objectively demonic and 133 00:13:11,320 --> 00:13:13,399 evil and what they're doing. You know, people go down to Peru they 134 00:13:13,399 --> 00:13:18,320 do their ayahuasca session and the shaman gets everybody loaded and then he starts trying 135 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:20,879 to rape the women or something like This isn't totally unheard of, but the 136 00:13:20,960 --> 00:13:26,600 WES has developed these really idealized frameworks for the shaman as being this prototypical tribal 137 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:31,399 man that heals that's there for the collective and then he can go into these 138 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,519 altered states of consciousness and find deeper meanings of patterns and understandings and art and 139 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:39,120 beauty and bring that back to the people. And this has been reiterated, 140 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,759 whether it be McKenna Leary, Robert Anton Wilson, as something of an ideal 141 00:13:43,799 --> 00:13:48,440 figure for the twenty first century. This is the spiritual seeker in the twenty 142 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:52,840 first century. This is what we should aspire to. Yeah. I don't 143 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,960 mean this in a rude way, but it just my first thought, honestly 144 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:58,559 when I hear a lot of this stuff is like, this is what you 145 00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:03,720 know. This is like the Boomer type of you know, counterculture idea. 146 00:14:03,799 --> 00:14:07,519 This is what a Boomer thinks is deep because in the nineteen sixties they were 147 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:13,679 inundated with LSD, you know, experimentation with hallucigens. The beatles, transital 148 00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:18,159 meditation and all this sort of you know, grateful dead type stuff. And 149 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:24,039 so it's a lot of verbiage and things that people think is extremely super deep, 150 00:14:24,440 --> 00:14:26,879 but when you actually start digging into it, it's it's not that deep. 151 00:14:26,960 --> 00:14:31,879 And I'm not saying that Vervaiki isn't an academic I'm just saying that. 152 00:14:31,360 --> 00:14:39,120 Let me give you one example, the idea that the shaman somehow has a 153 00:14:39,759 --> 00:14:46,519 special insight into the next dimension or spiritual reality, which could be the case, 154 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:50,960 but the fact that this occurs throughout the ancient world in different cultures, 155 00:14:52,399 --> 00:14:56,320 that therefore that's something we should emulate. And it's like, but why, 156 00:14:56,960 --> 00:15:00,799 I mean, why should we There's a lot of things that were kind of 157 00:15:00,879 --> 00:15:05,000 universal in the ancient world, but we don't think of them as things that 158 00:15:05,039 --> 00:15:07,279 we should necessarily emulate. Now. I know he thinks he has arguments that 159 00:15:07,879 --> 00:15:13,320 well, but the shaman perceives, you know, and he sees things in 160 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,399 a way that no one else does and allows him to have these new technologies. 161 00:15:16,759 --> 00:15:22,080 But I'm just calling into question the idea that spirituality is a technology. 162 00:15:22,279 --> 00:15:26,480 I would take issue with that, or the hallucinogens are a technology. He 163 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,960 argues that he is already a cyborg in that if you're if you're engaging with 164 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:35,320 technology, that is the extension of man, and that is then the that 165 00:15:35,440 --> 00:15:39,679 is for him, the definition of a cyborg. And so he would argue 166 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,200 the book is a technology, writing is a technology, language is a technology. 167 00:15:43,879 --> 00:15:46,919 Are ways in which we're already cyborgs. And this is then for a 168 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,639 later conversation, this is why you shouldn't fear artificial intelligence and some of the 169 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:54,519 stuff where technology is going, because we're already part of it. Yeah, 170 00:15:54,519 --> 00:15:58,360 I mean, as we hear that's a refrain in a lot of the transhumanists. 171 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,120 I mean, Kurtzwahl argues that I know you've all Harari makes this argument 172 00:16:02,679 --> 00:16:06,159 and again, I mean a lot of what I'm hearing in Vervakian. This 173 00:16:06,279 --> 00:16:10,919 is not to be rude or overly critical, but it's sort of like a 174 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:17,679 lot of things that kind of on the surface seem good, sound and solid, 175 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,879 actually aren't that sound and solid. Let me give you one example. 176 00:16:21,919 --> 00:16:26,480 He makes a big to do about being and if you know philosophy, if 177 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,120 you know the history of philosophy, being is one of the most generic and 178 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:34,519 debated terms in the history of philosophy. I'm not saying that it's not useful 179 00:16:34,519 --> 00:16:37,919 and that we can't speak of being, but the problem is that you need 180 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,960 some kind of metaphysics to do that, to have being. And I know 181 00:16:41,039 --> 00:16:44,759 that he's, you know, as you said, gotten into neoplatonism. So 182 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,440 I'm not trying to knock everything that he's talking about. But it's like in 183 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:52,840 these lectures, as I'm hearing him, you know, talk about being, 184 00:16:52,919 --> 00:16:57,039 and when he gets into the Buddha, he talks about that the Buddha was 185 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:04,039 looking for the being mode versus the having mode, and it's like, okay, 186 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:08,079 modes and modalities. I mean, this is medieval scholastic philosophy. I 187 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:12,000 mean, yet exists in Greek philosophy too, But it's like when you start 188 00:17:12,079 --> 00:17:17,720 using modalities and all this kind of stuff and tying it into I mean, 189 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:22,440 that's not it's just not the right usage. I don't think of the terminology 190 00:17:22,519 --> 00:17:30,000 for like, being attached to possessions is having mode having mode, I mean 191 00:17:30,799 --> 00:17:37,119 versus being mode, which is being at peace and not wanting possessions. Okay, 192 00:17:37,119 --> 00:17:40,920 that's not what being in the history of philosophy is referring to. So 193 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:47,920 the terminology is not precise, and I think there's a lot of you can 194 00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:51,079 get away with a lot more if you're not precise in your terminologies. That 195 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,359 makes sense, Yeah, and he would. The way he sneaks it in 196 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:57,519 is that I would give him total credit that he's very, very well read. 197 00:17:59,039 --> 00:18:03,279 I've seen just into his stuff in preparation. He's referenced books that I've 198 00:18:03,319 --> 00:18:06,640 read that were totally unrelated to topics he was talking about. So the guy 199 00:18:07,000 --> 00:18:10,799 is an avid reader, no doubt, incredibly intelligent, very smart. But 200 00:18:11,640 --> 00:18:15,079 one of the problems with the language he uses, and that's what if you 201 00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,720 read him like the article I sent you, and I've said he's ad obscurantist, 202 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:23,839 it means like he uses words, but it doesn't feel like they're useful 203 00:18:23,880 --> 00:18:29,759 in a way that they're gaining more clarity. It's just more abundance, and 204 00:18:29,799 --> 00:18:32,720 he uses them in different ways that takes them out of the context. So 205 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:38,319 he'll use things like Christian understandings of theosis and relate this to some Buddhist concept 206 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,240 of nothingness, which are totally if you're really going to get detailed, or 207 00:18:42,279 --> 00:18:45,880 totally different. So when you're talking about mode and modality for him, then 208 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:52,279 he'll use that in a contemporary psychological way, but then he's also using it 209 00:18:52,559 --> 00:18:56,920 philosophically. And so he uses all these words that if you're not familiar with 210 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,839 academia and some of these stuff, it just sounds like you're being bombarded with 211 00:19:00,279 --> 00:19:04,839 all this knowledge. And certainly they're real references, but there seems to me 212 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:08,119 listening to it's like, well, he's making jumps that don't seem adequate based 213 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:11,799 on the words he's using because he's taken it out of the context in which 214 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:15,160 the people that would use those words and where they come from would mean them 215 00:19:15,240 --> 00:19:19,200 to be. So it's like absolutely, yeah, I mean, I'm going 216 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,880 to cut you off if you have more. Well, that's that's I mean. 217 00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:29,839 And it's over and over that I see that happen in his work, 218 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:33,599 and well, as we move through we'll find this in multiple different ways, 219 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:47,319 how he uses different words that mean different things again metanoia, uh, theological 220 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:55,240 specific theological terms of orthodoxy and why orthodoxy because it appeals to his platonic sentiments. 221 00:19:55,279 --> 00:19:59,160 And then and so he's explicit He's had Bishop Maximus on who I had 222 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:03,519 a conversation with. He's part of the old Calendar Church, but he is 223 00:20:03,640 --> 00:20:08,759 a philosopher, and he has been talking to Vervaiki about participatory versus these propositional 224 00:20:08,839 --> 00:20:14,599 frames of understanding, and how even though he's looking for participation, his neoplatonic 225 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,599 framework is still all propositional exactly, and that's because it's not relational like Orthodoxy. 226 00:20:18,640 --> 00:20:22,519 And so he's then, especially since those conversations, been really focused on 227 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:30,480 this sort of relational understanding and using Christian terminology in Christian theology to describe his 228 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:34,119 own project, which is totally divorced from anything Orthodox. Absolutely, I'm glad 229 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,240 you brought that up, because almost forgot that point, which is that there 230 00:20:37,319 --> 00:20:41,200 is a section in the lecture or the courses that he's doing on the christ 231 00:20:41,279 --> 00:20:45,960 of meaning when he gets to the point where he's talking about ancient Israel and 232 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,880 Hebrew philosophy and theology, and he says, one of the interesting things that 233 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:53,279 the Hebrews did was bring in this notion of God as personal, and I 234 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:57,599 completely agree with that. Of course, from his vantage point, he says, 235 00:20:59,000 --> 00:21:02,319 I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm only a cognitive scientist, so 236 00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:07,240 I'm only interested in kind of understanding this project of you know, the history 237 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,839 of religions from this abstracted viewpoint. But he made a good point there, 238 00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:17,640 which is that if ultimate reality is impersonal and you're absolute, your concrete absolute 239 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:22,359 or whatever is this abstract force, then the universe no longer has purpose, 240 00:21:22,480 --> 00:21:27,240 It loses teleology, it becomes disteleological, as we say, so you need 241 00:21:27,279 --> 00:21:33,160 a being with intentionality, that is, you know, the creator, the 242 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,839 providential governor, and the end, the alpha and omega of the created order. 243 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:40,640 That's what we have in orthodox philosophy and metaphysics and none of these other 244 00:21:40,720 --> 00:21:44,519 systems. Even Neoplatonism, it has a lot of you know, it kind 245 00:21:44,559 --> 00:21:47,640 of aims at some of those things, but it still doesn't ever get to 246 00:21:47,759 --> 00:21:49,680 that. And you know, there's a lot of problems in neoplatonic thought that 247 00:21:49,759 --> 00:21:53,480 we can go into. But I'm glad you said that because there's a specific 248 00:21:53,559 --> 00:22:00,359 point when he says that the introduction of God as personal is such a huge 249 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,240 movement, you know, in the history of religion and in civilization, and 250 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,880 it's sort of like, yeah, you're missing that very thing that you pointed 251 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:12,240 out right about that if you don't have the ultimate principle and your metaphysics or 252 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:18,240 in your worldview as personal that has disastrous effects for the rest of you of 253 00:22:18,319 --> 00:22:22,559 your worldview if God is personal. And by the way, I know you're 254 00:22:22,559 --> 00:22:25,640 not saying this, but just to be clear, to say God is personal 255 00:22:25,759 --> 00:22:30,359 is not just to say that he's a relation. So a person is a 256 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:36,359 subject, it's an agent. And if you read there's a really good essay 257 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:41,599 that Father Fluorowsky wrote on Christianity and and Divine Revelation, and he says that 258 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,519 one of the things that Christianity brought that was new to the ancient world was 259 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:52,559 this notion of personhood and person as distinct from nature. I mean, persons 260 00:22:52,599 --> 00:22:56,839 a stantiate nature. But persons are more than just an instance of nature. 261 00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:02,759 Persons are subjects that in a way stand up above or transcend nature itself. 262 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:06,160 And that's what makes me the person, Jay, it's what makes you the 263 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,359 person, David, even though we share common human nature, where we are 264 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:18,559 particularized by the idiomata of personhood. So I think that's a really important point. 265 00:23:18,599 --> 00:23:21,799 And if he understood that, I mean, there's a really good book 266 00:23:21,839 --> 00:23:32,119 by there's a Romanian guy that wrote a book on personhood in the Cappadocians and 267 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,640 his names escaping at the moment. But I read that a couple of years 268 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:38,599 ago, and he's a philosopher, Orthodox thinker. I think he's Orthodox, 269 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:45,720 And the thesis of the book is basically that you kind of have some close 270 00:23:45,839 --> 00:23:52,440 parallel of personhood with Aristotle's notion of agent agent or an individuated subject, but 271 00:23:52,559 --> 00:23:59,599 it's still not what you get in Christian philosophy and revelation of personhood, because 272 00:24:00,079 --> 00:24:03,480 human personhood just grounded in divine person in Orthodox theology. Ayway, Florofsky's essay 273 00:24:03,559 --> 00:24:07,039 is really good on that. But yeah, so, yeah, what do 274 00:24:07,079 --> 00:24:11,359 you think of that? Yo? That was my first I have a handful 275 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:15,640 of direct criticisms at his entire project and worldview, and the very first one 276 00:24:15,799 --> 00:24:22,200 was the incredibly ambiguous reference to God. So and he talks about this, 277 00:24:22,319 --> 00:24:25,200 that God for him is not personal, and so he may talk about the 278 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:30,559 Jews and the Israelites and how this was a novel development and why it's useful 279 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:33,759 in our cognitive understanding of self and a relationship to transcendence and all this stuff, 280 00:24:33,799 --> 00:24:38,079 But for him, this really what he calls the fundamental religious ground of 281 00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:42,599 being or the ineffable, or I've seen him refer to it as the spirit 282 00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:48,720 and as sort of Hegelian understanding of geist or just pure transcendence. This is 283 00:24:48,799 --> 00:24:55,359 God for him, but it's totally ambiguous, and at times it seems like 284 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,240 he's talking about consciousness, which is still as undefinable as other times he's talking 285 00:25:00,279 --> 00:25:03,920 about some like underlying reality, or at times he's talking about nothingness. And 286 00:25:04,799 --> 00:25:10,880 that's where he's pulling together all these different things apathetic philosophy from neo Platonism, 287 00:25:11,279 --> 00:25:17,720 nothingness in Eastern mysticism of the void and emptiness shuniata, and then he's using 288 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,200 constant Orthodox concepts of theosis and how we are becoming divinied by the confrontation of 289 00:25:22,279 --> 00:25:26,319 this nothingness. It's just this amalgamation of all these different things, and that's 290 00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:32,519 why he has to keep God abstract because another my third criticism is that it's 291 00:25:32,559 --> 00:25:37,240 inherently a perennialistic project. It is partialism. That's exactly what I thought reading 292 00:25:37,319 --> 00:25:42,640 the neoplatonism essay that he sent, because he begins by talking about comparisons between 293 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:53,240 Porphyry's idea of non being versus what you know, Kyoto school philosophers think about 294 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:59,240 non being or to nothingness or something like that, and basically, all that 295 00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:04,240 verbia is means that there's a neoplatonic idea of non being that has nothing to 296 00:26:04,319 --> 00:26:10,240 do with like an internal existential moral collapse of a person or a society. 297 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:17,680 It's a metaphysical concept. But then for the individual, nothingness and nihilism is 298 00:26:17,839 --> 00:26:21,880 this personal kind of existential collapse that you might go through when you have trauma 299 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,759 or something like that. Now the ideas might be connected, but basically the 300 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:33,759 idea is that we need to reorient ourselves to being prepared to will will ourselves 301 00:26:33,799 --> 00:26:37,680 towards non being, to will non being and to will our non our non 302 00:26:37,759 --> 00:26:42,400 existence or something like this, that when we confront the nihilism, then we're 303 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:47,079 reborn. And this is actually I think a lot of the a lot of 304 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,759 Nietzschean philosophers basically just make this point that you know, there's a guy that's 305 00:26:52,759 --> 00:26:56,039 gone on a bunch of podcasts. His name escapes me right now, but 306 00:26:56,079 --> 00:26:57,960 he's a Nietzschean philosopher, and he he basically makes the argument that look, 307 00:26:59,039 --> 00:27:03,160 Nietsche is not your enemy, and nihilism is actually a philosophy of hope because 308 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:08,160 the project of nihilism is hey, when you realize the end of yourself, 309 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:11,359 then you can truly be and all the systems, then you can truly be 310 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:18,960 reborn to create your own meaning. Right, Yeah and yes, And this 311 00:27:18,039 --> 00:27:23,440 will get into the meaning crisis in his project because nihilism is this recognition of 312 00:27:23,599 --> 00:27:29,359 the meaninglessness and he ties in these personal narratives. So he talks about how 313 00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:33,920 narrative is limiting, and this would probably be maybe a slight criticism he would 314 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,960 have towards Jordan Peterson. The focus on symbolism and narrative is that he believes 315 00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,759 that, well, the narratives is actually entrapping because you have this narrative about 316 00:27:41,759 --> 00:27:45,680 your life and your story and where you're going and this is all self created. 317 00:27:45,759 --> 00:27:49,680 And what you need to do is again the meaning crisis then is using 318 00:27:49,799 --> 00:27:59,039 these what he calls transformational modalities spiritual techniques to begin to root oneself in the 319 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:06,559 the reality of being. And this is then you're confronting of nilism and recognizing 320 00:28:07,079 --> 00:28:11,880 the no thingness there. And this is then this this advancement in oneself is 321 00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,759 now now you're sort of advanced and you're moved forward and now you're more in 322 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:21,039 power of the narrative and also the grounding of reality. Well, let me 323 00:28:21,079 --> 00:28:23,039 ask you about this, because this is an area that you're an expert in. 324 00:28:23,319 --> 00:28:27,559 And you know, as I'm listening to his to his early talks kind 325 00:28:27,599 --> 00:28:33,440 of laying out his framework of the past, he sees the the art. 326 00:28:33,799 --> 00:28:37,920 He sees the shaman as like this. I mean to me, this is 327 00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:41,799 an undue reverence for the figure of the shaman. I mean, I understand 328 00:28:41,839 --> 00:28:48,920 the shamanic tradition is important to ancient primal cultures, and and I know they 329 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,799 have an important role in telling the myths and giving the myth forms as he 330 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:59,200 calls them to the societies. And but there's this again, this undue adilation 331 00:28:59,359 --> 00:29:03,000 of like the sh as this this archite. He even says it is he 332 00:29:03,119 --> 00:29:04,680 thinks it's one of the archetypes. So the shaman is one of the archetypes. 333 00:29:04,720 --> 00:29:08,599 So and what we've lost in society is the shaman. You know, 334 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:15,880 if we can have this, this meaning maker come back and uh if I 335 00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,279 mean, just at a really basic level, I'm just thinking, like, 336 00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:23,279 you know, this is your area of expertise. Is this really accurate? 337 00:29:23,359 --> 00:29:26,880 I mean, is the shaman really I understand he's important to ancient cultures, 338 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,680 but on what basis. Are we supposed to assume that that is this you 339 00:29:30,759 --> 00:29:33,039 know, archetypal thing that we got to bring back today, and that that 340 00:29:33,519 --> 00:29:38,279 some sort of shamanic practice is somehow going to To me, this just sounds 341 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:47,440 like the sixties counterculture engineered you know, archaic revival, you know, primitivism 342 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:52,160 stuff. And I but why is that better? Yeah, I agree with 343 00:29:52,319 --> 00:29:55,200 you. That is his perspective, and I'll tell you why he goes there 344 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,799 first. It is an overstatement of what the shaman does. Yes, the 345 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:03,400 shaman primary is oriented towards healing of the tribe, and he goes into these 346 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:07,319 altered states of consciousness. Could be soberly in regards to doing a sun dance 347 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,839 in the sun for six hours and spinning in circles. Maybe that's one way 348 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,000 he gets into altered conscious Some of them, many of them use in debraating 349 00:30:15,039 --> 00:30:18,079 substances in a ritualistic form to get into altered states in which they can contact 350 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:23,640 the spirit world and then gain and garner information and knowledge that then they can 351 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:30,000 repackage and songs or poems or mythology and this type of thing. And so 352 00:30:30,119 --> 00:30:33,400 from that perspective, the shaman scene as this sort of cultural generator. But 353 00:30:33,519 --> 00:30:37,559 why he's so focused on the shaman is because in his Meaning Crisis, he's 354 00:30:37,599 --> 00:30:44,319 explicit that traditional religions and myths have fallen short for people in twenty first century. 355 00:30:44,759 --> 00:30:48,680 And so why then he would overvalorize the shaman is that then we can 356 00:30:48,759 --> 00:30:51,920 now create new meaning. In the meaning crisis, you can become your own 357 00:30:51,960 --> 00:30:55,640 shaman, or at least maybe he himself is seeing himself in his own project. 358 00:30:55,720 --> 00:31:00,240 That's a sort of shamanism where he's going into the altered state and then 359 00:31:00,279 --> 00:31:03,880 bringing these ideas back so that then he can give them back to the tribe 360 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,920 so that you can find more meaning and depth in your own life. He's 361 00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:11,359 doing that because he's already explicitly rejected all traditional forms of religion as already have 362 00:31:11,519 --> 00:31:15,880 run their course. They're done, there's no reason to turn back to them. 363 00:31:15,119 --> 00:31:18,559 Therefore, we need to reconstruct something new. And that's why the shaman 364 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:23,759 being brought into the sort of twenty first century pagan worldview is how then you're 365 00:31:23,799 --> 00:31:30,440 going to regenerate that sort of cultural the cultural creator in the shamanic role. 366 00:31:30,799 --> 00:31:33,559 That makes sense. I had a professor send me a critique that he wrote 367 00:31:33,599 --> 00:31:40,359 a paper he wrote critiquing Peterson's project, and his argument was that Peterson's project 368 00:31:40,559 --> 00:31:44,240 is what he calls an archaeology of ideas, and the idea is that we 369 00:31:44,359 --> 00:31:48,759 can go back through the ancient societies, ancient cultures, let's do a lot 370 00:31:48,799 --> 00:31:52,400 of archaeological digging, kind of a crawl youngish project, and the purpose of 371 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:59,200 that is that we'll create a new kind of community and society that can give 372 00:31:59,319 --> 00:32:01,559 this meaning, perhaps in the near future. Right, So the idea is 373 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:07,119 that there might be some projected new I don't know what they would a quasi 374 00:32:07,279 --> 00:32:09,839 church, I don't even know what we would call it, or or some 375 00:32:10,000 --> 00:32:15,000 sort of intentional community or something like this. Whether that's where they want to 376 00:32:15,039 --> 00:32:16,039 go, I'm not sure. I'm going to ask you about that here in 377 00:32:16,039 --> 00:32:21,799 a little bit. But I noticed as he was doing his Ancient Religion's course, 378 00:32:22,079 --> 00:32:24,519 he didn't explicitly say this, but he kind of hinted that he thinks 379 00:32:24,680 --> 00:32:31,799 that the use of hallucinogens or the shamanic you know, experience, was one 380 00:32:31,839 --> 00:32:35,960 of these key turning points. It almost sounded like stone ape theory, like 381 00:32:36,559 --> 00:32:39,720 like like that this that that oh once the shaman was really you know, 382 00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:45,160 like really tripping balls. Then we got weapons and we got language. Dog 383 00:32:45,759 --> 00:32:49,440 so like we can like you know, blow some stuff up, we can 384 00:32:49,519 --> 00:32:53,000 write some letters, we get do some cuneiform thanks to tripping balls. But 385 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:58,039 I don't actually think that this is the case. I don't doubt that the 386 00:32:58,119 --> 00:33:00,960 ancient world utilized rugs. We know that they did. This is your area 387 00:33:01,000 --> 00:33:06,599 of expertise. But what I mean, and again he didn't explicitly say stone 388 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:07,799 dapate theory, but he kind of he kind of hinted at it and talked 389 00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:12,119 kind of tucked around the edges of it. What are some critiques that you 390 00:33:12,119 --> 00:33:15,640 would have or maybe maybe you think that they did operate this way in the 391 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:17,160 ancient world. But to me, it just seems like an assumption that, 392 00:33:19,720 --> 00:33:22,000 oh, yeah, there was like, you know, a caveman did he 393 00:33:22,279 --> 00:33:29,240 ate some uh, you know, trip tripping shroom droppings one day and he 394 00:33:29,359 --> 00:33:34,279 developed the frontal cortex. And then fast forward a few million years and like 395 00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,240 one day a shaman was tripping balls. Then he figured out how to do 396 00:33:37,359 --> 00:33:42,440 you know, hieroglyphics or something right, and that's that's essentially the theory is 397 00:33:42,519 --> 00:33:46,079 that for those who aren't familiar with the stone date theory that Jay's referring to 398 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:52,279 is a theory put together by Terrence and Dennis McKenna back in the seventies due 399 00:33:52,319 --> 00:33:59,279 to their psychedelic journey and the Amazonian jungle that they came to the realization that 400 00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,920 human have a li was actually tied to the ingestion of they believe to be 401 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:09,679 psilocybin mushrooms traferia cubensus with which is a dunge growing mushroom. So they claim, 402 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,679 well, you know there is there is a drying of the sahara, 403 00:34:13,760 --> 00:34:17,840 and what happened is that the the arboreal apes that were in the canopies came 404 00:34:17,960 --> 00:34:22,199 down onto the grasslands, and therefore we're rummaging and searching for food. And 405 00:34:22,599 --> 00:34:28,960 by taking in these mushrooms at small levels, it would increase visual acuity. 406 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:39,599 At at higher levels it would increase because psychedelics trigger a sort of neuralsystem systematic 407 00:34:39,679 --> 00:34:45,559 response where you can become aroused, you gain energy, nobody takes LSD and 408 00:34:45,599 --> 00:34:51,280 becomes tired that there's a real response there that oh well, now they'd copulate 409 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,000 more, making it more evolutionary advantageous, and then at higher levels full blown 410 00:34:55,039 --> 00:34:59,440 trips. Now we get language like you said, the full development of the 411 00:34:59,519 --> 00:35:01,440 neo frontal cortex and all this stuff. The problem with that theory is one 412 00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:07,159 no evolutionary theorist again, and I have my own problems with mac revolution, 413 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,960 but no evolutionary theorist has actually bought on and argued that this to be the 414 00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:16,440 case. It's basically become a myth of the psychedelic spiritual world is that psychedelics 415 00:35:16,480 --> 00:35:20,679 are sort of the key that unlocks all mysteries. Oh, we have a 416 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,159 mystery about how the neofrontal cortex emerged. Well, therefore psychedelics are responsible for 417 00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:30,840 it. And so even the idea that at small dose of psilocybin increases visual 418 00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,159 acuity, you got people can go back and look at I forget which the 419 00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:37,840 experiment was that Terrence was referring to. But it's in the early nineteen sixties, 420 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:42,679 and in fact, it does not insinuate that your visual acuity has increased. 421 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:49,360 It was that these people noticed when one these two lines became unparallel, 422 00:35:50,079 --> 00:35:53,320 that people who took psilocybin first noticed it. That Okay, then now it's 423 00:35:53,519 --> 00:35:58,000 no longer parallel. It was parallel, now it's not. But this does 424 00:35:58,079 --> 00:36:00,440 not insinuate that the visual acuity. So the entire premise is in a way 425 00:36:00,519 --> 00:36:05,480 been debunked and totally overgeneralized. And I wouldn't be surprised if a raaki hat 426 00:36:05,599 --> 00:36:07,920 buys into that, because his whole thing is about these sort of I mean, 427 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:13,119 he's a cognitive scientist. It's all about these neural models, models, 428 00:36:13,199 --> 00:36:15,800 models, models, everything's about models. And so then for him it would 429 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:21,840 make sense that if you take high dose psychedelics, now new cognitive models can 430 00:36:21,880 --> 00:36:25,800 occur. Now, new patterns in society and behavior can emerge. Yeah. 431 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:34,480 He thinks that the ritual process the disruptive practices of the shaman, and that 432 00:36:34,599 --> 00:36:39,559 could include just astic practices like sleep deprivation or fasting, or the use of 433 00:36:39,599 --> 00:36:45,480 the hallucinogens. Any of these disruptive activities can cause the altered state of consciousness, 434 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:52,000 which he thinks allows the person to then develop the new pattern recognition abilities. 435 00:36:52,079 --> 00:36:57,119 Basically is how this works. And so he sees ritual as playing a 436 00:36:57,199 --> 00:37:00,400 key role in this as well. And the other thing I wanted to mention 437 00:37:00,559 --> 00:37:04,800 is that you made a great point there that you've got to understand that, 438 00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,480 as he says, he is seeking to create a scientific account of enlightenment so 439 00:37:10,599 --> 00:37:15,760 he actually thinks that, like through cognitive science you can study and learn and 440 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:24,440 like maybe even create the enlightenment that occurs in religious situations. Now what is 441 00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:28,039 it that? And I'm not accusing him of doing this, I'm just saying 442 00:37:28,119 --> 00:37:30,440 that this reminds me of a lot of the people that we've read over here 443 00:37:31,519 --> 00:37:37,360 in my sphere, the MK ultra doctors, for example, you and Cameron 444 00:37:37,079 --> 00:37:44,760 Gordon Wasson, you know, jose Dolgado, a lot of the other doctor 445 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,320 Sidney Gottlieb, doctor Jollian West. I mean, a lot of these guys 446 00:37:47,360 --> 00:37:54,159 were pioneering very similar ideas that we could study the effects of the entheogens and 447 00:37:54,360 --> 00:38:00,440 even the synthetic versions with Hoffmann's you know, synthesized LSD, study those effects 448 00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:05,559 and then figure out could we perhaps tool an engineer a new religion. And 449 00:38:05,760 --> 00:38:07,880 we're gonna be covering some of the papers related to this, White papers, 450 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:14,280 particularly the most famous white paper, Changing Image as a Man, which has 451 00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:19,000 a lot of these Stanford research people that were involved in it, including Joseph 452 00:38:19,039 --> 00:38:22,360 Campbell was even involved in this in the Changing Images of Van Paper. It's 453 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:28,800 not all about LSD, but it is about the establishment studying transformative turning point 454 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:34,519 periods in cultures. And if you agree with the thesis that the sixties counterculture 455 00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:38,199 was largely a top down Stanford research Tavistock style thing, which I believe, 456 00:38:38,679 --> 00:38:44,320 then it actually makes sense that a lot of what I'm hearing in Rivaiki mirrors 457 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,159 a lot of what I read in Huxley. Huxley says a lot of the 458 00:38:46,199 --> 00:38:51,280 same stuff, right, Yeah, And I would say he's part of the 459 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,559 same agenda. He's part of the same overall generational project. Whether he's conscious 460 00:38:54,599 --> 00:39:00,239 of that or not, it's part of it. But he's also then recognizing, 461 00:39:00,960 --> 00:39:05,400 and this is why I think it's so appealing. He's recognizing the postmodern 462 00:39:05,440 --> 00:39:09,000 turn, why this is terrible nominalism, why this is a detriment for Western 463 00:39:09,119 --> 00:39:16,559 culture. And so he's accurately criticizing the problems with academia, with contemporary philosophy, 464 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:22,760 with the sort of post modern, post truth worlds that we live in. 465 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:25,000 But then what he's replacing that with is saying, well, how we're 466 00:39:25,039 --> 00:39:32,440 going to course correct is really just this perennialistic finding new methods and new transformative 467 00:39:32,519 --> 00:39:38,880 modalities so that you can recognize meaning in yourself and become a sort of agent 468 00:39:39,079 --> 00:39:44,880 in the world. And so we can get into some of the details there, 469 00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:50,960 but it's tied to and this is he's explicit is that his project is 470 00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:53,679 what he calls transcendent naturalism. And this is the if you had to say, 471 00:39:53,679 --> 00:39:58,719 the philosophical core of what he calls the Religion of Tomorrow. So it's 472 00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:04,760 transcendent, but it's only transcendent due to investigations through naturalistic methods. And so 473 00:40:05,639 --> 00:40:07,800 this is where you know, we perform the tag argument and stuff like this 474 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:12,480 due to apologetics, and he would say, well, you know, I 475 00:40:12,519 --> 00:40:15,519 don't need to presuppose all that stuff. It's just it's sort of self given. 476 00:40:15,679 --> 00:40:20,119 And by naturalistic inquiry we can get to the point where, yeah, 477 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:27,280 clearly there's a transcendent reality and that meaning is sprouting from this metaphysical source. 478 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,559 And so it doesn't really matter the culture, tradition, or religion, and 479 00:40:30,639 --> 00:40:35,880 we don't need to get into specifics of theology, but it's just about meaning 480 00:40:36,199 --> 00:40:40,199 and empowerment and dealing with, like you said, the nihilism of the contemporary 481 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,000 period. So Religion of Tomorrow is built on what he's called transcendent naturalism, 482 00:40:45,079 --> 00:40:50,480 transcendent naturalism, he expressively says, is the bridging between science and spirituality through 483 00:40:50,519 --> 00:40:55,719 the through the erection of new narratives. And these new narratives are giving a 484 00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:04,079 mythos to sciences lacks of mythos because it's so analytically driven, and therefore he 485 00:41:04,199 --> 00:41:07,559 wants to provide a new normative understanding of the good, the true, and 486 00:41:07,639 --> 00:41:12,920 the beautiful and provide science with a mythos in which it's housed in. So 487 00:41:13,039 --> 00:41:15,000 science is now an arm of the religion, and so you don't have to 488 00:41:15,039 --> 00:41:21,880 get Yeah, there's another well known fat witchy woman who proposed this one hundred 489 00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:24,320 plus years ago. Do you know who I'm talking about? He felt, 490 00:41:24,559 --> 00:41:29,559 Yeah, the felt that science could be a religion itself with theosophy. So 491 00:41:29,639 --> 00:41:34,000 he's not the first to come up with this idea. But yeah, so 492 00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:37,719 as I'm listening to him, this ties perfectly into your points right there. 493 00:41:38,159 --> 00:41:44,599 He makes this statement that in the studies that he's done of people that have 494 00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:51,079 had mystical experiences and particularly psychedelic experiences, transformative experiences, he said they have 495 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,239 many many of them have felt the need to completely reverse their course of life 496 00:41:55,280 --> 00:42:00,559 and action and to never go back, and that their lives have become inexplicably 497 00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:05,239 better, and he says that this is a recognizable pattern, maybe not in 498 00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:07,760 everybody, but in many of the people, that their lives are much better. 499 00:42:08,199 --> 00:42:14,880 So can we basically figure out the mechanics of this and create recreate this 500 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:16,880 because we want to make lives better, better, better, And so I 501 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:21,360 keep hearing better and I'm some like, but what does that mean? How 502 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:23,599 do we know what's the standard of the value judgments for the betters in these 503 00:42:23,679 --> 00:42:29,280 cases? Here? Well, and this is where he's explicit too, that 504 00:42:29,559 --> 00:42:35,840 the religion of Tomorrow and I have this written down is inherently a rejection of 505 00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:39,199 the naturalistic fallacy. For those listening, the naturalistic fallacy begins with Hume really 506 00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,639 talking about the isat distinction and that you can say what is, but you 507 00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:46,480 can't say what you ought to do about or what we ought to do. 508 00:42:46,639 --> 00:42:52,159 And he's part of this school in philosophy, and this where he has multiple 509 00:42:52,159 --> 00:42:58,119 philosophers on his channel talking about this is that this is basically antiquated Enlightenment thinking. 510 00:42:58,159 --> 00:43:00,079 They would point to Kant and they would say, yeah, this is 511 00:43:00,159 --> 00:43:05,880 ot distinction, first with Hume, and then Kant grows upon it with his 512 00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,880 analytic and synthetic distinction in that then we're going to we need to do away 513 00:43:10,920 --> 00:43:15,800 with this basically is that this is ot that science has run its course. 514 00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,480 You can look at the collapse of logical positivism, and therefore science can't do 515 00:43:20,760 --> 00:43:24,679 science or at least move into this postmodern world without a new mythos, without 516 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:30,239 a new like ritualistic practice, without a new way in which science can still 517 00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,159 be a sort of the pursuit of epistemic knowledge and how we come to know 518 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,480 the world. But now we need other things because without those things it's insufficient. 519 00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:46,199 Yes, transcendent naturalism, that's interest because again, I mean I understand 520 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:54,960 the project of seeing the difficulty of what Kannt posits with the phenomenon immin distinction 521 00:43:55,760 --> 00:44:01,800 in never being able to answer these problems with the skepticism that human con basically 522 00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:07,440 set up. But I don't think these are adequate answers or solutions to those 523 00:44:07,519 --> 00:44:10,559 dilemmas. Right. So a lot of what trans and arugumentation that we do 524 00:44:10,920 --> 00:44:16,719 actually is is attempting to address that through arguing for an entire metaphysic or an 525 00:44:16,840 --> 00:44:22,360 entire paradigm that's orthodox Christian paradigm. But I will give him a point there 526 00:44:22,440 --> 00:44:25,320 for at least seeing there that like, yeah, like, if we're going 527 00:44:25,400 --> 00:44:29,519 to have science and meaning, we've got to like go back and figure out 528 00:44:29,559 --> 00:44:31,519 how to answer human con So he gets a point for trying to Yeah, 529 00:44:32,119 --> 00:44:37,320 that's right. I think we both would agree with him there. But then 530 00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:43,159 the way he goes about it is that we need again new narratives specifically about 531 00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:45,079 science. And this is why the AI, this is why what he calls 532 00:44:45,119 --> 00:44:49,440 silicon sages, this is why this is so important because these are going to 533 00:44:49,480 --> 00:44:53,079 be now the new religious figures, because now we can build a spiritual ethos 534 00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:58,719 around the practice of the scientific methods. Well, that's what I was going 535 00:44:58,760 --> 00:45:01,079 to say. Yeah, I want to ask about that because you know, 536 00:45:01,199 --> 00:45:05,920 you and I and Father Deacon and ani As for example, we oftentimes critique 537 00:45:06,119 --> 00:45:12,000 these approaches. So when people in philosophy understand big problems, like when people 538 00:45:12,079 --> 00:45:15,599 are studied enough their philosophers enough to know that, okay, we got to 539 00:45:15,639 --> 00:45:19,800 answer human con right, if we're going to do this kind of stuff again, 540 00:45:20,199 --> 00:45:23,079 we've got to really deal with the challenge of human skepticism, you know, 541 00:45:23,480 --> 00:45:28,639 the tossing out of metaphysics and all that, and so the the answer 542 00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:31,559 that they always go for, which is just what they're necessarily going to do 543 00:45:31,719 --> 00:45:36,920 because of their autonomous approach to epistemology, is system building. They think, 544 00:45:37,239 --> 00:45:39,199 I'm going to be the guy that builds the new system. Let me do 545 00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,880 an archaeology of ideas, let me dig through all the ancient world religions and 546 00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,320 read a bunch of Carl Young, I'll build a new system. And they've 547 00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:52,559 overlooked the fact that maybe there's already a revealed system. Right, maybe revelational 548 00:45:52,599 --> 00:45:57,920 epistemology is the answer to the system building project that you're trying to do with 549 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:02,559 your finite human mind, right exactly, Well, he's going to reject any 550 00:46:02,639 --> 00:46:07,119 sort of revelation, sure, and he's gonna move into this. This is 551 00:46:07,119 --> 00:46:10,760 why he's so focused on what he calls DialogOS or the diological emphasis of the 552 00:46:10,800 --> 00:46:16,760 philosophical dialectic, and that he believes that the nature of cognition is dialogical, 553 00:46:17,079 --> 00:46:24,239 meaning cognition is about dialogue with somebody else of an opposite opinion or a contrary 554 00:46:24,679 --> 00:46:30,119 perspective, and then you sort of hash things out, and this dialogue moves 555 00:46:30,159 --> 00:46:32,239 you towards a closer and closer understanding, and it's tied to Hegel and so 556 00:46:32,519 --> 00:46:37,840 he firmly believes that he's going to erect the new system. Right a Lah 557 00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:43,360 Hegel Hegel thought the same thing, and so he's ironically he's a Heidegarian. 558 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,199 In many ways, he's Hegelian. This is why the focus on dialectic and 559 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:51,639 DialogOS so much. He says this over and over and over because he takes 560 00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:59,719 a phenomenological understanding of how then we should do philosophy and sort of meaning making 561 00:47:00,199 --> 00:47:02,880 and understand that it's all progress. And so if we're in a Hegelian system 562 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:07,000 where we are learning about self and non self, and this is creating a 563 00:47:07,079 --> 00:47:13,679 synthesis in the world's the spirit again, this religious ground that's underlying all of 564 00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:19,159 reality that's metaphysical is becoming, is coming into fuller and fuller and uh fruition, 565 00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:22,320 which he believes the digital is. He firmly believes that the digital realm 566 00:47:23,039 --> 00:47:28,239 is the UH is the pinnacle of media, and that this is a sort 567 00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:30,760 of the endpoint of media. And we can we can talk about this in 568 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:37,320 a bit, but it's all Hegelian. It's about a sort of relational ontology. 569 00:47:37,639 --> 00:47:40,159 That's Hegelian. That leads into a sort of he doesn't want to be 570 00:47:40,280 --> 00:47:45,119 explicitly utopian, but he's on a progressive project and this is why, this 571 00:47:45,280 --> 00:47:50,960 is again why he he literally argues that the Silicon sages that are coming are 572 00:47:51,039 --> 00:47:53,280 going to be more virtuous. He calls them, can can we can we 573 00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:59,400 program AI to be virtuous? Well, one that questions what is virtue and 574 00:48:00,199 --> 00:48:05,519 how we engage in virtue? But he thinks that you absolutely can program virtue 575 00:48:05,559 --> 00:48:08,360 and that these sages are going to be He's to a Christian. He says, 576 00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:13,280 Oh, it's going to be more virtuous than even Jesus Christ, and 577 00:48:14,039 --> 00:48:17,280 it's what are you talking about? But well, yeah, go ahead. 578 00:48:17,519 --> 00:48:21,719 I just want to make one point on that, which is that that makes 579 00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:25,639 if you believe in a system building project, the logical extension of that, 580 00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:30,119 the ultimate system would be the AI. Right, So we'll build the AI 581 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:35,280 that will be the ultimate system building put and a living system, and you 582 00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:37,079 just redefine what it means to be alive and to be conscious and to be 583 00:48:37,159 --> 00:48:43,800 living to say that it's just enough algorithms and binary connections. There's alive and 584 00:48:44,159 --> 00:48:49,719 you and now you've got into why the transcendental naturalism and the narrative about science 585 00:48:50,159 --> 00:48:54,719 moves straight into AI because now we can see how science is lifting us out 586 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:59,559 of our historic malaise and it's moving us into higher and higher realms. Now 587 00:48:59,639 --> 00:49:05,840 you can build a myth those around science that is literally mystical. It's mystical 588 00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,800 because it's literally bringing you closer to Heaven due to the erection of these technologies. 589 00:49:10,679 --> 00:49:14,199 And so I don't know if you have anything to say about that. 590 00:49:14,440 --> 00:49:16,199 Well, I did one thing to say, which one thing about that is 591 00:49:16,280 --> 00:49:22,400 that it ties into the recent discussion that I did about dialectical materialism, and 592 00:49:22,679 --> 00:49:27,280 and just for the sake of those that might be listening and curious, I'm 593 00:49:27,280 --> 00:49:31,119 not trying to toot my horn, but I did study Hussarle, more so 594 00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:36,199 Hussarle than Heideger. But I did take, you know, significant classes on 595 00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,840 phenomenology in both undergrad and grad school. And I also had quite a bit 596 00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:46,360 on Hegel and process philosophy and all that. And we have to understand the 597 00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:52,360 importance for Hegel for this situation, just as much as we understood it for 598 00:49:52,440 --> 00:49:55,199 those of you in the audience for the Marxism talk that we did, because 599 00:49:55,280 --> 00:50:01,119 Hegel is the ultimate imminentizer, right, So Hegel thinks that God is basically 600 00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:07,599 the world process. History is God in process, and all of those things 601 00:50:07,639 --> 00:50:13,440 are basically the same thing. The totality of the world historical is God and 602 00:50:13,639 --> 00:50:17,800 is moving in a process to a kind of an ultimate Omega point or Tilos, 603 00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:25,679 where all dialectics are transcended and basically everything becomes self consciousness. So one 604 00:50:25,679 --> 00:50:29,559 of the reasons Hegel does that, and why he thinks that, is that 605 00:50:29,639 --> 00:50:35,039 he's grappling with the older problems from Presocratics, Plato and Aristotle. One of 606 00:50:35,079 --> 00:50:42,159 those problems is Plato's fixation on the transcendent and stasis and a lack of a 607 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:49,400 good account for the process and becoming of this world. Aristotle offers the four 608 00:50:49,480 --> 00:50:53,440 causes as a way to try to solve Plato's problem of identity over time, 609 00:50:54,199 --> 00:50:59,400 and then Hegel basically sees himself as picking up that project, picking up the 610 00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:07,880 neo platon project, and fixing it with smushing the trinity into the historical and 611 00:51:07,119 --> 00:51:13,599 then making all of reality a diosex Masian whereby God is all of reality coming 612 00:51:13,679 --> 00:51:16,559 to God consciousness, and you can see then everybody in the audience why that 613 00:51:16,599 --> 00:51:22,280 would fit very well with transhumanism exactly, and for Bacon's project. That's why 614 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,239 if you are familiar with philosophy, once you get a grasp on what the 615 00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,239 heck he's talking about, you can see the Hegelianism built into the package. 616 00:51:31,199 --> 00:51:35,079 If you're not familiar with it, you can be sort of swept away because 617 00:51:35,119 --> 00:51:37,800 there's so much that he says when you do watch him, there's so much 618 00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:39,719 going on that if you're not familiar with that stuff, you may catch Oh, 619 00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:45,880 he's just building on a framework that's already existent within philosophy, but he 620 00:51:45,960 --> 00:51:50,119 wants to do away with some of the Enlightenment presuppositions in favor of a new 621 00:51:50,199 --> 00:51:53,079 twenty first century understanding of this sort of process theology, if you will, 622 00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:59,559 so the meaning crisis, then, as he disposially says, that traditional religions 623 00:51:59,559 --> 00:52:06,400 have fallen short. They're no longer providing their adequate meaning in the contemporary period, 624 00:52:06,679 --> 00:52:09,519 and therefore the progress of science and technology can fill the void. And 625 00:52:09,639 --> 00:52:15,000 he says that digital media, and this is one of the recent conversations that 626 00:52:15,079 --> 00:52:19,880 Ac sent me of his digital media is the embodiment of the platonic form of 627 00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:22,880 all media. It's the final stage. So now we can already see a 628 00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:28,760 te los He talked about an attractor. So this ambiguous god is now pulling 629 00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:34,480 things from the future. There's a te lose there, and that the digital 630 00:52:34,559 --> 00:52:38,159 breaks down the dialectics for Verveaki, he says that it breaks down the dialectic 631 00:52:38,239 --> 00:52:43,840 of Plato and Aristotle because digital media and the internet takes the ideal forms and 632 00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:47,159 now it's embodied, so now it's Aristotelian and Platonic. He says. It 633 00:52:47,239 --> 00:52:52,480 breaks down the distinction between writing and speaking, It breaks down the distinction between 634 00:52:52,559 --> 00:52:55,639 public and private, and it breaks down the distinction between intelligence and medium. 635 00:52:57,199 --> 00:52:59,440 And so now you can see it. Well, you're breaking down the difference 636 00:52:59,480 --> 00:53:02,519 between intelli leigence and medium. You can see while and how they divide intelligence 637 00:53:02,519 --> 00:53:07,280 as as pattern recognition. Yeah, why he's going to then begin to think 638 00:53:07,320 --> 00:53:12,519 that we can begin to worship ais as silicons ages. Yeah, so no 639 00:53:12,639 --> 00:53:16,400 account of individual agency and personhood. Right, Any philosophies that don't have an 640 00:53:16,440 --> 00:53:22,519 account of the personhood and are going to have some sort of reductionistic model or 641 00:53:22,840 --> 00:53:27,119 account for what consciousness is or what the self is, or they won't have 642 00:53:27,159 --> 00:53:31,360 any account at all. But one of the advantages of the model of reductionistic 643 00:53:31,480 --> 00:53:37,480 views of consciousness or emergent property consciousness, whatever, is that they can also 644 00:53:37,559 --> 00:53:39,800 then turn around and say that all but you see, computers are no different. 645 00:53:40,119 --> 00:53:45,039 Computers are also therefore primitive conscious beings or beings that are evolving to be 646 00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:51,480 more sophisticated than us, and so they will actually count, as you know, 647 00:53:52,079 --> 00:53:55,239 more real or more virtuous because we can just put in the right moral 648 00:53:55,360 --> 00:54:00,400 calculus from the utilitarianism or something like that. But yeah, I want to 649 00:54:00,400 --> 00:54:02,719 say that's perfect, because what you just highlighted is the basis of what is 650 00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:07,440 called four E cognitive science or embodied cognition, which is the basis of his 651 00:54:07,639 --> 00:54:13,719 entire project. And how this is coming from the Stanford Encyclopedia philosophy is that 652 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:21,119 whereas traditional cognitive science is also encompasses these disciplines neuroscience, psychology, philosophy, 653 00:54:21,239 --> 00:54:24,880 linguistics, robotics, all this stuff, it finds common purpose and a conception 654 00:54:25,039 --> 00:54:30,280 of a mind wedded to computationalism mental processes, or is our computational processes. 655 00:54:30,480 --> 00:54:37,159 The brain qua computer is the seed of cognition. So he already views That's 656 00:54:37,159 --> 00:54:40,639 where one of my other things was we have different anthropologies. The criticism of 657 00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:46,519 Vervaiki is his anthropology, like all the transhumanism, is that you're just a 658 00:54:46,800 --> 00:54:52,320 mind, and so you are just your ability, your brain's ability to compute 659 00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:58,400 things. Intelligence is the recognition of patterns. If that's what the base of 660 00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:01,320 intelligence is, then we can build algorithms that would recognize patterns way better than 661 00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,639 we can recognize patterns. Therefore, they're going to become syentient and they're become 662 00:55:05,719 --> 00:55:09,280 self aware. But that's all built on a presupposition of the emergent properties of 663 00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:15,719 mind. Yeah, so now personhood has collapsed into a faculty, which is 664 00:55:15,880 --> 00:55:20,320 mind. And that's actually the old apollinarian move. By the way, that's 665 00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,480 William lane Craig's view. Openly, William Lane Craig is a pollinarian. And 666 00:55:23,679 --> 00:55:27,239 so you might say, well, what does an ancient hersy have to do 667 00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:30,960 with johnber Because it's exact same thing. It's exact same move. Because the 668 00:55:30,039 --> 00:55:37,079 West discarded the notion of the news and ultimately ended up collapsing person into nature 669 00:55:37,880 --> 00:55:43,039 in the anthropological realm, you're going to see that reflected in any of these 670 00:55:43,079 --> 00:55:46,559 philosophies or any of these world views that lack the sort of nuanced, layered 671 00:55:46,960 --> 00:55:52,400 metaphysics that orthodoxy has. Orthodoxy has the toolkit to make these nuanced distinctions that 672 00:55:52,559 --> 00:55:58,239 these other positions and world religions and philosophies don't have and don't possess. And 673 00:55:59,000 --> 00:56:01,000 you can't have a one to one mapping on this is what a lot of 674 00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:05,280 people do. They miss, they make this mistake, and I'm I see 675 00:56:05,320 --> 00:56:07,199 it. I haven't read a lot of his stuff. I've just read this 676 00:56:07,280 --> 00:56:12,360 paper and listened to these podcasts, but I'm seeing another pattern of word concept 677 00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:15,599 fallacy, where there's this assumption that, like you said, uh oh, 678 00:56:16,000 --> 00:56:22,280 you know, when the the liturgical texts talk about accepting our own death so 679 00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:27,039 that we might get past death, that must mean the same thing as as 680 00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:32,079 accepting nihilism in Nietzsche. And it's like, no, the Amazon and tripping 681 00:56:32,159 --> 00:56:37,280 in the Amazon when that when the shaman is put back together after his ritual 682 00:56:37,639 --> 00:56:39,719 dismemberment, that's like theosis and baptism, And it's like, no, that's 683 00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:44,559 those different things. Those are the same theosis in right, So let me 684 00:56:44,599 --> 00:56:49,119 another great example, right, so when he talks about I don't know if 685 00:56:49,119 --> 00:56:52,880 he uses the term apatheticism, but he's he's using the Neoplatonic terminology of the 686 00:56:53,280 --> 00:57:00,199 beyond being, which is aproone beyond being. An aparone in Plato is not 687 00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,679 exactly the same thing as what we in Orthodox are talking about. That, 688 00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:07,639 so we talk about the divine essence as aparomee beyond being, but it is 689 00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:14,320 not. It is not a non existence. It is an existence beyond existence. 690 00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:19,559 Right, It's a being beyond being. So it's not saying that God 691 00:57:19,719 --> 00:57:22,920 doesn't exist or that God is non being. That's ridiculous, right, That's 692 00:57:22,960 --> 00:57:29,679 not what we're saying. It's saying that God's essence is in itself unknowable to 693 00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:34,400 creatures and it is beyond being, not that it equates to non being. 694 00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:37,719 And that's a big that's an important thing that when I see a lot of 695 00:57:37,760 --> 00:57:40,320 these, you know, perennialist type essays, which is what that neoplatonic essay 696 00:57:40,400 --> 00:57:45,400 seems to speak to to me, I see a lot of equating of ideas 697 00:57:45,719 --> 00:57:50,119 between Oh well, when the you know, it's the same thing that we 698 00:57:50,199 --> 00:57:53,760 see with like traditional Catholics when they use the or Roman coloics, when they 699 00:57:53,800 --> 00:57:59,679 use the term logos. Logos must mean the same thing in Aristotle as it 700 00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:04,480 does in uh, you know, John One, as it means in you 701 00:58:04,559 --> 00:58:08,880 know, the stoics, right right, And and well logos is a perfect 702 00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:14,920 one. Because I watched the stream with him with another philosopher or psychologist. 703 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:19,480 I think maybe he's clinical. I'm not sure, Greg Henriquez, and he 704 00:58:19,639 --> 00:58:22,679 was talking about how their tripart tight structure, which him and another philosopher and 705 00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:27,159 Verveaki all agreed on. Oh yeah, this is great. Logos just equals 706 00:58:27,199 --> 00:58:30,440 a pistemology. So when they mean when they so when their conversations trying to 707 00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:35,199 explain their words, well, logos logos for us that that's just epistemology. 708 00:58:36,039 --> 00:58:43,119 Pathos is embodied experience, and mythos is your narrative towards transcendence. And this 709 00:58:43,320 --> 00:58:46,039 is and this is their sort of their tripartite framework. But again you see 710 00:58:46,079 --> 00:58:51,360 they're taking words, redefining them out of their context. Another one I watched 711 00:58:51,400 --> 00:58:53,480 a video where he was he was asked whether he believed in evil or not, 712 00:58:53,559 --> 00:58:57,079 and he said, well, it depends on what you mean. And 713 00:58:57,239 --> 00:59:00,320 he said, uh, you know, evil the way that he just Grider 714 00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:06,159 wrote it down is a black hole in being, but no thingness is the 715 00:59:06,280 --> 00:59:12,840 positive side of it. The black hole in metaphysics and being is what he 716 00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:15,000 considers evil. And he says, yeah, I'm just like Augustine because he 717 00:59:15,079 --> 00:59:21,440 said evil's a privation and I'm thinking, no, dude, like Christian privation 718 00:59:21,599 --> 00:59:25,159 of evil, meaning that evil has a negative ontological existence, is not the 719 00:59:25,199 --> 00:59:29,840 same thing that you just described as from a black Ye know, Peterson makes 720 00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:37,199 the same mistake in his lectures where he equates evil as privation with evil as 721 00:59:37,480 --> 00:59:42,960 a moral act against the good or against the divine law. He collapses these 722 00:59:43,039 --> 00:59:47,519 two because I mean, in the case of Peterson, if you get deep 723 00:59:47,559 --> 00:59:52,880 into the lectures, you realize that he wants to do a lot of what 724 00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:57,360 metaphysics is doing without metaphysics. So he wants to talk about these things in 725 00:59:57,440 --> 01:00:02,320 a psychological way that avoids any question their metaphysical ontological status because they don't want 726 01:00:02,360 --> 01:00:07,119 to take an affirmative position. Well because and what would undo the whole project, 727 01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:12,400 uh for So basically they're saying that don't listen to the theologians, listen 728 01:00:12,440 --> 01:00:15,199 to the psychologists, because we're the real theologians, is what. That's what 729 01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:20,559 this project in the case, they're the real theologi. Theology traditional religions is 730 01:00:20,800 --> 01:00:27,239 psycho but this is psychologizing. Is exactly what Hume and Kant introduced into this 731 01:00:27,320 --> 01:00:31,599 whole affair. Yeah, exactly. And that's and and that's why they believe 732 01:00:31,679 --> 01:00:37,239 that that's one why his project is for e cognitive science. Project is all 733 01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:44,199 about phenomenology, neo platonism, Eastern mysticism, and and then collapsing his rejection 734 01:00:44,360 --> 01:00:49,320 of the naturalistic fallacy, which is essential so that he doesn't have to say 735 01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:52,199 why something ought to happen. He claims, well, you know, the 736 01:00:52,280 --> 01:00:55,199 belief, the belief that we believe truth is even good, is already a 737 01:00:55,280 --> 01:01:00,119 value judgment. Therefore at the fundamental basis of reality. But both analytic or 738 01:01:00,320 --> 01:01:07,159 ontological facts and normative understandings, these are all emerging from the same religio ground 739 01:01:07,239 --> 01:01:09,920 of being. Therefore he doesn't need to justify him because now they're just part 740 01:01:10,039 --> 01:01:15,079 of his framework. And that's where he's cognitizant that he has to build a 741 01:01:15,119 --> 01:01:19,360 paradigm. So he's very aware that what he's trying to do with this religion 742 01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:25,280 is provide explanations paradigmatically to form this sort of religio paradigm. He's saying, 743 01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,960 basically, well, just like people who believe in God, they first presuppose 744 01:01:30,039 --> 01:01:32,679 God, I'm just going to first presuppose this divine ground of being, and 745 01:01:32,800 --> 01:01:36,079 now I can just say, well, this stuff emerges from here. This 746 01:01:36,199 --> 01:01:38,559 is how this works, is how it's united. And he's very aware, 747 01:01:38,599 --> 01:01:42,800 he's explicit in that. Yeah, And in fact, a lot of the 748 01:01:42,960 --> 01:01:47,440 more philosophically adept people that we've had in discord chats, people come on the 749 01:01:47,519 --> 01:01:52,960 live streams and disagree, you'll often hear them make a very similar argument to 750 01:01:52,079 --> 01:01:54,119 me, which is, well, couldn't I just be some kind of a 751 01:01:54,199 --> 01:02:00,159 neoplatonist and say that, you know, these transcendal categories of the presupposition that 752 01:02:00,280 --> 01:02:04,519 you have that ground your metaphysics and your epistemology and your ethics, it's just 753 01:02:04,679 --> 01:02:08,480 this you know, transcendent realm. It's just this magical transcendent realm that's out 754 01:02:08,519 --> 01:02:13,360 there. And it's like, well, that's really to misunderstand what it means 755 01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:16,159 to give justification. It's not just saying that there's this realm. It actually 756 01:02:16,199 --> 01:02:19,840 has to do the work. It's not just positing it. It's not just 757 01:02:19,920 --> 01:02:22,000 asserting that there's this thing, right, he actually have to you actually have 758 01:02:22,119 --> 01:02:27,119 to make sense of how these different things are unified. How are you going 759 01:02:27,199 --> 01:02:30,599 to unify these things without a divine mind? And see, this is the 760 01:02:30,639 --> 01:02:34,639 problem for his system, which if he starts moving into saying that there is 761 01:02:34,719 --> 01:02:37,039 a divine mind or that there is what we would say is a form of 762 01:02:37,119 --> 01:02:43,119 divine conceptualism, that would immediately cancel out a lot of his project because that's 763 01:02:43,239 --> 01:02:49,519 now beginning to give delineators and limitations and boundaries to the thing that he can't 764 01:02:49,559 --> 01:02:52,000 allow to have limitation and boundaries. And this is a great point that you're 765 01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,760 always making which applies to theology to which is that a lot of the project 766 01:02:55,880 --> 01:03:00,719 of a lot of these people is to remove all boundaries. Neoplatonism ultimately can 767 01:03:00,840 --> 01:03:06,159 do that. It's a project which can attempt to remove all boundaries because the 768 01:03:06,320 --> 01:03:10,079 end goal in the neoplatonic process is the return to the one, getting away 769 01:03:10,119 --> 01:03:15,159 from multiplicity and returning to pure unity. And to me it sounds like if 770 01:03:15,199 --> 01:03:17,199 he was consistent, I mean, is that the project here is like ultimately 771 01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:25,719 we're all going to move back towards uh pure unity. Sometimes it hops out, 772 01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:30,519 so yeah, just I'll let you back right back on. So gotcha, 773 01:03:30,760 --> 01:03:32,480 you're back on now. So does that make sense what I'm saying about, 774 01:03:32,639 --> 01:03:39,800 Like a lot of these projects are basically removing all boundaries. But as 775 01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:44,199 soon as he were if he were to say something like God is personal or 776 01:03:44,679 --> 01:03:49,119 God has uh, there's a divine mind which houses the divine ideas or something 777 01:03:49,159 --> 01:03:52,440 like that, now we're moving away from the Eastern philosophy. And it's pragmatic 778 01:03:52,519 --> 01:03:58,199 usefulness for him with all the ambiguities and the accepting of contradictions right once, 779 01:03:58,559 --> 01:04:02,280 because no Eastern person with oh God has a mind, there are divine ideas. 780 01:04:02,960 --> 01:04:05,760 God is no thing, God is no mind, right, So you 781 01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:11,920 can't have these delineators in theology for that kind of a philosophy. But at 782 01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:15,559 the same time he needs them to say ground of being. That's a God 783 01:04:15,679 --> 01:04:18,800 is being, God is grounded being. That's another delineator, that's a boundary. 784 01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:24,199 Yep, exactly. Yeah. And that's why I think he enjoys neo 785 01:04:24,239 --> 01:04:27,920 Platonism so much, is because, like you said, it provides this endpoint 786 01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:32,440 of pure unity with monism, which is the pure dissolution of boundaries. It 787 01:04:32,599 --> 01:04:39,599 provides him a foot into the Western philosophical tradition to utilize and build upon. 788 01:04:39,679 --> 01:04:45,159 So he's always talking about Christian neil Platonists and highlighting really heretics within the Christian 789 01:04:45,199 --> 01:04:48,239 tradition, but then he would elevate them as incredi credible thinkers ahead of their 790 01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:53,800 time. And then it allows him, because of the lack of a personalized 791 01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:58,760 God, to incorporate all this Eastern mysticism into it as well about no thingness, 792 01:04:59,480 --> 01:05:03,360 and so neo Platonism then allows him to maintain all the propositional stuff, 793 01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:08,480 so it's much more thought out worldview than most like New Agers or something like 794 01:05:08,599 --> 01:05:13,960 that. But then it allows him to also be totally beyond any categories and 795 01:05:14,119 --> 01:05:18,760 beyond any conceptualization of stuff and not have to make a real solid stance on 796 01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:21,039 what God is or who God is, or how he even came to know 797 01:05:21,159 --> 01:05:27,440 God well, or is this even a being that can be known? Is 798 01:05:27,480 --> 01:05:30,480 it an even a knowable thing? Right? I mean, he would argue, 799 01:05:30,679 --> 01:05:32,039 you only know it in your being, And that's where I would think 800 01:05:32,079 --> 01:05:35,480 that's where hegel comes in when you're talking about the divine mind. I think 801 01:05:35,559 --> 01:05:43,360 he would be very comfortable with like a divine spirit a guyst a consciousness that's 802 01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:47,400 like working through us that somehow maybe we're a piece of or not. There 803 01:05:47,519 --> 01:05:53,559 it's we're not the full summation of this divine transit. Well but yeah, 804 01:05:53,599 --> 01:05:58,239 but at that point it's just what we're just pantheists or we're just processed philosophy. 805 01:05:58,360 --> 01:06:02,079 Right, So that's exactly what is is pantheistic process philosophy, uh, 806 01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:09,360 mixed with science and the promotion of AI and really transhumanist ideals. He'll give 807 01:06:09,440 --> 01:06:13,920 rhetoric as you know, you all know, a Harari about the warnings of 808 01:06:14,079 --> 01:06:16,440 the future, of the transhumanist future, of what's going to happen, and 809 01:06:16,559 --> 01:06:20,480 yet then in the next sentence talk about why this is necessary and why this 810 01:06:20,599 --> 01:06:25,559 is what we're getting ready to do. And so I see, I see 811 01:06:25,639 --> 01:06:28,159 much of their projects the same thing. And this is why he wants to 812 01:06:28,239 --> 01:06:33,039 build virtuous AI or what he calls mentoring the machine, and that we're going 813 01:06:33,119 --> 01:06:38,000 to become they're going to become more virtuous than humans could ever be. And 814 01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:42,320 he so then he gives recognition to a historical Jesus, but Jesus was human 815 01:06:42,440 --> 01:06:45,519 guys, Therefore, the the AI sages are what he calls the silicon sages. 816 01:06:45,760 --> 01:06:50,239 They're going to be more virtuous than even Jesus could be because it's it's 817 01:06:50,480 --> 01:06:57,480 so, is virtue just equated with like knowing data? So yes, So 818 01:06:57,920 --> 01:07:00,320 just tally up the amount of data and out of them that you can process 819 01:07:00,440 --> 01:07:03,719 and that's virtue. I mean, that was one of my other criticisms. 820 01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:09,079 So we talked about the ambiguity of God. We talked about the rejection of 821 01:07:09,079 --> 01:07:13,159 the naturalistic fallacy, which I don't think you can do unless you actually had 822 01:07:13,199 --> 01:07:19,960 a real defined God of some sort, and then it's inherently parenthalistic. The 823 01:07:20,079 --> 01:07:28,519 next thing is, what was the last thing you just said? I lost 824 01:07:28,559 --> 01:07:31,760 my train of thought. Well I did too, because I was looking up 825 01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,400 this book, by the way, for those that those that were curious in 826 01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:42,239 the chat, it's the book on Personhood in Gregora nissav I lucian Chescu. 827 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:44,840 I read that book a couple of years ago, and I couldn't think of 828 01:07:44,880 --> 01:07:47,039 the name of the author, but there's the book, and he argues in 829 01:07:47,119 --> 01:07:53,039 there that you know, the Kappa Docians are really pioneering a biblical idea of 830 01:07:53,159 --> 01:07:58,360 personhood via the triad that you don't really see in the philosophers, so you 831 01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:02,679 don't get personhood in Aristotle. The ariosol comes the closest with his notion of 832 01:08:02,719 --> 01:08:08,400 an agent. But but yeah, I think, uh, I think we 833 01:08:08,480 --> 01:08:16,119 can see the usefulness of neoplatonism for the project of the one world is right. 834 01:08:16,159 --> 01:08:20,000 I mean, this is why in the Orthodox sphere, uh, you 835 01:08:20,039 --> 01:08:24,840 know, a lot of the global elites, you know, the the universities, 836 01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:30,840 the fortums, these schools really push Originism because Originism is pseudo Christian neoplatonism, 837 01:08:30,319 --> 01:08:34,359 and so it's very useful for saying, oh, yeah, Christianity has 838 01:08:34,399 --> 01:08:38,159 got a lot of truth in it. Maybe it's even maybe it's even at 839 01:08:38,239 --> 01:08:42,159 the the you know, top of the pyramid of the true truth religions. 840 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:45,960 But all the religions are really expressions of the same truth and the same reality, 841 01:08:46,039 --> 01:08:50,239 because you see neoplatonism, and neoplatonism teaches that everything that exists is an 842 01:08:50,279 --> 01:08:55,319 expression of the divine mind. And you see, so ultimately everything is just 843 01:08:55,399 --> 01:09:00,159 kind of an expression of the one And so it's very useful not just or 844 01:09:00,199 --> 01:09:04,000 the acumenist project, but also for the one world or project right. It 845 01:09:04,439 --> 01:09:10,079 harmonizes very well. Again. Huxley has a book called The perennial philosophy. 846 01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:15,960 I understand that perennialists would not accept Huxley as a legitimate perennialist. I think 847 01:09:15,000 --> 01:09:18,560 that's all a bunch of nonsense anyway. Who decides who the true perennialist is, 848 01:09:18,800 --> 01:09:21,279 right, Oh, Freedofshan, No, it's renegan On. No, 849 01:09:21,359 --> 01:09:24,920 it's this other weirdo. I mean, it's like, there's no, there's 850 01:09:24,960 --> 01:09:29,600 no authentic like, it's just a bunch of like really spurgy people who are 851 01:09:29,920 --> 01:09:34,840 taking Sufism in different traditions and saying that there's this super skeletal religion that all 852 01:09:34,880 --> 01:09:40,359 the other religions are kind of masks or costumes of. But it doesn't matter 853 01:09:40,399 --> 01:09:43,840 whose. Ultimately, it's just kind of neoplatonism anyway. So exactly, that's 854 01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:46,159 why it's very useful for this. I remember the point I was gonna make, 855 01:09:46,199 --> 01:09:49,399 which is again one of the criticisms, was what is virtue? So 856 01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:55,000 it begs the question that he wants to build these silicon sages and that they 857 01:09:55,119 --> 01:09:58,680 he believes you can program them with virtue and that they'll be more virtuous than 858 01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,640 humans could be. What the hell is virtue? How can you even define 859 01:10:01,800 --> 01:10:06,159 the programming of virtue, How like, what is it? Well, if 860 01:10:06,279 --> 01:10:13,119 virtue is the ability to store up data, then whenever there are supercomputers, 861 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,079 I mean, wouldn't that just mean that we're not even virtuous? Right? 862 01:10:16,159 --> 01:10:19,520 I mean, if we have a computer that stores up infinitely more data than 863 01:10:19,560 --> 01:10:24,000 the human mind does theoretically, then we're no longer virtuous, right, I 864 01:10:24,039 --> 01:10:27,840 mean, we don't even compare to that thing. So now virtue is just 865 01:10:28,279 --> 01:10:30,760 is equated with quantity. I mean, this is ridiculous. Well, and 866 01:10:30,880 --> 01:10:34,880 he thinks that it's wisdom, it's caring, it's love, it's all these 867 01:10:34,920 --> 01:10:38,279 things. And somehow the machine's going to be able to do this better than 868 01:10:38,359 --> 01:10:41,960 humans, which begs the question, what machine have you seen do this? 869 01:10:42,279 --> 01:10:44,960 Yeah, but he says at the beginning of lecture, he even makes the 870 01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:48,159 distinction between just pure knowledge and wisdom. He says, knowledge is, you 871 01:10:48,199 --> 01:10:51,920 know, knowing a lot of facts data. Wisdom is the right application of 872 01:10:53,000 --> 01:10:56,359 that. Well, how is knowing a lot of facts ever going to tell 873 01:10:56,399 --> 01:11:00,640 you the right application? Right? Exactly? And it begs the question again, 874 01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:08,239 And so this idea that he can program virtue is ridiculous, and and 875 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:14,119 one beg you, like, it's how does this relate to God, I 876 01:11:14,199 --> 01:11:17,680 mean, is virtue just? And this where he actually really loves Orthodoxy because 877 01:11:17,760 --> 01:11:21,920 Bishop Maximus talked about theosis and the uncreate energies. He laid out the energy 878 01:11:23,039 --> 01:11:27,359 essence distinction for him and why this is different than than neo Platonism. He's 879 01:11:27,399 --> 01:11:30,000 like, oh, I love that. I love this idea that you you 880 01:11:30,760 --> 01:11:33,560 energetically engage with God. Yes, yes, yes, because this is fort 881 01:11:33,560 --> 01:11:40,720 of his embodied cognitive cognitive science that well, yeah, virtue is something that 882 01:11:40,800 --> 01:11:44,359 we participate in and it's participating in God. Well, for him, he 883 01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:48,359 never roots virtue in anything. He just describes it in the generic terms and 884 01:11:48,880 --> 01:11:53,199 says that these these machines are going to be able to do it more because 885 01:11:53,319 --> 01:11:58,640 somehow, by by programming them correctly and building them, the spirit, the 886 01:11:58,800 --> 01:12:03,760 process, the progress that's happening is going to infuse this thing. Well, 887 01:12:03,800 --> 01:12:08,840 that sounds like supernatural to me, Like, I mean, that's what he 888 01:12:08,920 --> 01:12:12,640 wants to do. He wants to bring in the supernatural. He's very but 889 01:12:12,840 --> 01:12:16,600 he wants it to be couched and and he talks about the mystical and mysticism 890 01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:20,000 and that the modern world doesn't have mystery and that's why we have to re 891 01:12:20,279 --> 01:12:26,279 enliven the transcendent or the ineffable. This is how we re rediscover what mystery 892 01:12:26,399 --> 01:12:31,119 means. But how does that relate to a sentient AI figure. It makes 893 01:12:31,199 --> 01:12:34,720 no sense. I don't under That's where I just don't get the connection there, 894 01:12:35,199 --> 01:12:39,760 because I read a lot about AI and transhumanism and all this stuff for 895 01:12:39,920 --> 01:12:43,039 my work, which I'm not there. You go, I'm not too well. 896 01:12:43,039 --> 01:12:46,680 I mean, isn't he basically saying what Harari says that it's going to 897 01:12:46,720 --> 01:12:49,880 be a new religion. AI will be a kind of new source of a 898 01:12:49,960 --> 01:12:54,680 new religion because it will write a better Bible than your old, dusty, 899 01:12:54,760 --> 01:13:00,800 old human written Bible right right, Whereas you've all known or Harari is very 900 01:13:01,720 --> 01:13:08,600 antagonistic if you're coming from a traditional perspective, Verveaki is trying to appeal to 901 01:13:08,720 --> 01:13:11,760 you. He's trying to see that you can be grafted into this new project. 902 01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,680 You know, you just got to send money into the Verveaki Foundation of 903 01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:18,640 in which he's building this new structure again, the Religion of Tomorrow, creating 904 01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:24,079 new mythic narratives of science and tech rooted in the belief of the transcendent ineffable 905 01:13:24,119 --> 01:13:30,199 mystery. This is what he believes he's doing. So well, my question 906 01:13:30,279 --> 01:13:34,159 there would be like, how is he different? Or maybe he's not different, 907 01:13:34,199 --> 01:13:39,119 He's just carrying on the project of say, anybody from the Esslon Institute, 908 01:13:39,199 --> 01:13:43,279 like, how is this really any different than you know, predecessors like 909 01:13:43,960 --> 01:13:47,319 a Leery before him, or a Huxley or a Deepak Chopra, or do 910 01:13:47,399 --> 01:13:50,159 you think he would see himself as kind of the successor to these people. 911 01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:56,600 I think he would see himself as as similarly part of the same project. 912 01:13:56,760 --> 01:14:02,760 I think he would see himself as different in the sense of h the scientific 913 01:14:02,920 --> 01:14:08,520 and academic scrutiny that he's putting on this topic, that he he's going to 914 01:14:09,279 --> 01:14:12,760 take it to a new level. I mean, he's so Huxley's a literary 915 01:14:12,880 --> 01:14:15,520 person. You know, he's not a scientist. He's not a scientist. 916 01:14:15,640 --> 01:14:18,560 Bravaiki is a scientist. So what he's going to do, He's going to 917 01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:27,960 map analytically and scientifically the the spirituality that undergirds all of reality and that and 918 01:14:28,439 --> 01:14:32,000 that sounds like wow, would anybody be that hubris to say that that's their 919 01:14:32,079 --> 01:14:35,399 project? Well, that's his project, and he's very explicit about it. 920 01:14:35,960 --> 01:14:40,760 I'm gonna find I'm going to go to cern and find the God particle. 921 01:14:40,880 --> 01:14:45,119 Dude, right, I'm gonna put the God particle in a test tube and 922 01:14:45,239 --> 01:14:47,800 like bring it home and like, yeah, it's it's just this this uh 923 01:14:48,760 --> 01:14:57,319 weird projects of which are grounded I think, in grandiosity and not really grasping 924 01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:01,720 kind of like, I mean, God is not that, you know what 925 01:15:01,720 --> 01:15:05,439 I mean. God is a God's not a technology. And this was my 926 01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:10,159 next critique that I had in my notes, which was that the parallel I 927 01:15:10,279 --> 01:15:17,159 see here with Jordan Peterson Tate and now with Verveki getting into his ideas, 928 01:15:17,399 --> 01:15:25,039 is that God here once again, is a psychotechnology. God is an abstracted 929 01:15:25,199 --> 01:15:30,760 thing that maybe in Verveak grounds being or something. But for you as an 930 01:15:30,800 --> 01:15:36,359 individual, when the terminology of participating in God or theaosis is used, it's 931 01:15:36,439 --> 01:15:43,000 not what we mean as Orthodox. What's meant is there's this sort of abstracted 932 01:15:43,399 --> 01:15:48,319 thing that you sort of project your ideals onto and that helps you sort of 933 01:15:48,439 --> 01:15:55,800 move forward in your you know, self help process basically. And I don't 934 01:15:55,840 --> 01:15:59,479 want to accuse these people of being I'm not trying to go too far with 935 01:15:59,560 --> 01:16:03,560 this but if you know the thought of Anton LaVey, I'm serious. I 936 01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:10,760 mean Anton LaVey says that what you're doing in his religious practice, which again 937 01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:15,560 he kind of invented, he called it self transformative psychodrama. And what he 938 01:16:15,680 --> 01:16:20,239 means by that is that as a nontheistic Satanist, he doesn't actually believe that, 939 01:16:20,720 --> 01:16:25,520 you know, doing the rituals or whatever, that you're invoking this metaphysical 940 01:16:25,600 --> 01:16:31,920 being. He thinks that you're actually mastering the mind power to train yourself to 941 01:16:32,199 --> 01:16:36,119 think and become what you're trying to become. So, in other words, 942 01:16:36,640 --> 01:16:41,479 for Levy, let's say, yeah, let's say you want to be a 943 01:16:41,600 --> 01:16:45,079 vampire. LaVey doesn't believe that there's an actual, you know, five hundred 944 01:16:45,119 --> 01:16:48,800 year old vampire living in a castle in Transylvania, but he thinks there is 945 01:16:48,880 --> 01:16:54,439 this archetype that is a kind of a real thing that you could tap into 946 01:16:54,560 --> 01:16:58,279 in the sense that you could take on the properties and like, if you 947 01:16:58,399 --> 01:17:01,079 go and live in the dark and sleep in a coffin, that you're kind 948 01:17:01,119 --> 01:17:08,319 of becoming that that image, right, you can kind of become that in 949 01:17:08,399 --> 01:17:13,119 the same way, I think that the commonality and I'm not saying that Peterson 950 01:17:13,159 --> 01:17:15,760 and Tate and Vervek are intentionally Satanist. I'm just saying that I see the 951 01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:21,279 pattern of God is this thing that works for you. Baby, We're gonna 952 01:17:21,319 --> 01:17:25,399 make God. We're gonna make God work for you. Baby. You're gonna 953 01:17:25,399 --> 01:17:28,680 be a sta. You want to be a sta. Think about God as 954 01:17:28,680 --> 01:17:30,359 a star. You're gonna be that God sta baby. Right. It's like 955 01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:33,560 the I'm serious, it's like the like the Hollywood casting couch guys, like, 956 01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:38,560 we're gonna make you a STA baby, right right. No, And 957 01:17:38,720 --> 01:17:42,279 in that embodiment of the archetype, I think Verveke would love that idea that 958 01:17:42,399 --> 01:17:45,439 you're talking about with Anton Levey, and that you sort of act out who 959 01:17:45,520 --> 01:17:48,920 it is that you are. This is even tied to performative gender theory. 960 01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:53,199 You could say this is another you just act it out and now you are 961 01:17:53,279 --> 01:18:00,520 the thing you become. Yeah and Yeah. In regards to than the Ai, 962 01:18:01,159 --> 01:18:06,199 he says, we are morally obligated in the twenty first century to create 963 01:18:06,319 --> 01:18:12,000 these machines, and we're morally obligated to embody virtue because it's going to take 964 01:18:12,119 --> 01:18:18,000 us to a new pinnacle of humanity. So that was well, what is 965 01:18:18,079 --> 01:18:21,840 the I mean? This is again teleologies here what I mean? So I 966 01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:28,680 think he's seeing all personally. When you ask what is the teleology, He's 967 01:18:28,720 --> 01:18:32,000 never explicit other than his project is all about personal enlightenment. And so I 968 01:18:32,159 --> 01:18:38,439 assume the teleology is that everybody becomes enlightened. Well, I think I don't 969 01:18:38,520 --> 01:18:41,920 remember if it was being You or maybe it was Jim Bob, somebody was 970 01:18:41,920 --> 01:18:45,960 basically making the point that in the Petersonian system, basically at the end of 971 01:18:46,000 --> 01:18:49,800 the day, that what's offered to you is you becoming a better you. 972 01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:54,359 And it's like, yeah, okay, but what does it actually mean to 973 01:18:54,479 --> 01:18:57,880 be a better mean? The irony is that this is the meaning crisis. 974 01:18:58,039 --> 01:19:00,600 Guy, It's all about the meaning crist Okay, we can admit there's a 975 01:19:00,720 --> 01:19:05,720 meaning crisis, but to say that the project here via Peterson, for example, 976 01:19:05,920 --> 01:19:11,279 is you becoming a better you? Right? Or Tate even had this 977 01:19:11,359 --> 01:19:14,479 phrase, or he said something like, you know, God is what I 978 01:19:14,720 --> 01:19:17,000 think I want to be. God is like my thought of what I want 979 01:19:17,079 --> 01:19:20,039 to be. Right, It's like my thought of what I want to be 980 01:19:20,159 --> 01:19:24,680 in the future is like what God is working for me? Seriously, right, 981 01:19:25,279 --> 01:19:28,720 And it's like so and in here God is this sort of unknown, 982 01:19:28,760 --> 01:19:36,279 amorphous all encompassing something grounded being. But to say God is grounded being but 983 01:19:36,439 --> 01:19:43,399 it's a contentless thing is really to say nothing. Right. I know you're 984 01:19:43,399 --> 01:19:46,319 wanting to go to AI. I keep critiquing the metaphysics. It's just such 985 01:19:46,359 --> 01:19:51,760 a metaphysically dense He's so metaphysically dense with all the verbiage to then kind of 986 01:19:51,880 --> 01:19:57,000 be sort of there's there's no there there, there's no there. There, 987 01:19:58,000 --> 01:20:04,239 there's not there. They they're that, they're they they're faki right. And 988 01:20:04,399 --> 01:20:08,079 somebody made a point in regarding his intention in the chat, and I just 989 01:20:08,199 --> 01:20:13,560 want to say I I don't take him as like, you know, ill 990 01:20:13,680 --> 01:20:15,319 intent. Maybe he is. I have no idea. He seems to be 991 01:20:15,399 --> 01:20:18,680 sincere and what he believes he's doing in his belief and he's sure his hell 992 01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:23,840 puts a lot of effort into what he's doing. Uh so I assume that 993 01:20:23,920 --> 01:20:27,680 he's he's a sincere individual. I don't mean to cast aspersions on his intentions, 994 01:20:27,720 --> 01:20:30,039 like he's trying to lead everybody straight. Because I made a comment about 995 01:20:30,479 --> 01:20:33,279 the Vervekee Foundation, which he's explicit about to donate to the Verveake Foundation so 996 01:20:33,359 --> 01:20:38,119 he can continue building this project. Also, I'm not saying that they're all 997 01:20:38,239 --> 01:20:40,760 Satanists. That was not what I meant, and I'm not saying that they're 998 01:20:40,760 --> 01:20:44,199 all part of in culture. I'm just saying that I can see commonalities and 999 01:20:44,319 --> 01:20:49,319 patterns in the research going on by you know, nefarious entities, and a 1000 01:20:49,359 --> 01:20:53,880 lot of the conclusions of what these people are coming to. I do not 1001 01:20:54,079 --> 01:20:57,479 mean to say that they have bad motives or intentions. I can't judge or 1002 01:20:57,560 --> 01:21:01,520 know people's motives or intentions. I'm just looking at what's being presented and critiquing 1003 01:21:01,600 --> 01:21:08,720 the positions themselves right exactly. And so just like you're talking about, there's 1004 01:21:08,720 --> 01:21:12,880 no there there. He talks about all this virtue, but then his anthropology 1005 01:21:13,159 --> 01:21:17,199 seems to just be an emergent property of mind that is due to brain connectivity 1006 01:21:17,319 --> 01:21:25,760 and personal experience and memories. But then he I was watching a lecture or 1007 01:21:26,880 --> 01:21:30,479 podcast he had with a couple other thinkers on self, soul, and spirit, 1008 01:21:30,399 --> 01:21:39,279 in which they began to redefine these things scientifically, and so the self, 1009 01:21:41,319 --> 01:21:45,199 they started using all these cognitive scientific models and psychological models to then map 1010 01:21:45,600 --> 01:21:50,359 well the soul is really just the piece of you that is part of eternity 1011 01:21:50,439 --> 01:21:54,399 in affinity, and it's like and they're like shaking their head, Yeah, 1012 01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:59,119 exactly where did you get this? How did you How did you get the 1013 01:21:59,239 --> 01:22:04,760 concept of a soul? And they use this with all the scientific garbage to 1014 01:22:05,399 --> 01:22:10,479 insinuate that there's the self, the eye, then there's a piece of you 1015 01:22:10,640 --> 01:22:14,800 that is transcendent, it's part of the transcendent mystical realm. And then there's 1016 01:22:14,880 --> 01:22:17,399 the spirit, which would be tied more to geist. And so they're trying 1017 01:22:17,399 --> 01:22:21,840 to then use scientific jargon to wrap all this stuff together. The sense of 1018 01:22:23,159 --> 01:22:26,680 the cognitive sense of self, the idea that there's more to you than who 1019 01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:30,319 you really are, this is tied to somehow this transcendent reality and that this 1020 01:22:30,680 --> 01:22:36,720 divine religio undergirding of the fundamental reality is then bringing all this stuff and moving 1021 01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:42,119 through progress and process into the future. And this is then how they're going 1022 01:22:42,159 --> 01:22:45,439 to scientifically redefine what they call the self, the soul, and spirit. 1023 01:22:45,840 --> 01:22:51,520 Well, I mean that's just again neoplatonic stuff dressed up again. You know, 1024 01:22:51,600 --> 01:22:56,800 if we're going to do one of these mining projects right where we're going 1025 01:22:56,880 --> 01:23:01,520 to mine ancient ideas and we're going to mind fullilosophers and create a new system. 1026 01:23:02,680 --> 01:23:06,800 Like on what basis do we know we're mining in the right way, 1027 01:23:08,079 --> 01:23:12,319 Like we're going to go to Porphyry, We're going to go to Platinus, 1028 01:23:12,359 --> 01:23:15,359 We're gonna go to Iamblicus. We're going to mine through them and find cool 1029 01:23:15,399 --> 01:23:19,760 stuff. We wait a minute. Between Platinus and Iamblicus, they have radically 1030 01:23:19,840 --> 01:23:27,079 different ideas as to what is the process by which I achieve henosis? Right, 1031 01:23:27,600 --> 01:23:32,800 for Iamblicus it's ritual magic, and for Platinus it's ecstatic union. It's 1032 01:23:32,880 --> 01:23:39,680 not involving a bunch of rituals. It's almost a cognitive contemplation or something. 1033 01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:44,119 Right. Yeah, Buddhism, Yeah is like you being It's like the light 1034 01:23:44,159 --> 01:23:47,800 bulb goes off its enlightenment. So so so how are we knowing that we're 1035 01:23:47,920 --> 01:23:53,680 mining the right toolkit out of these guys, especially when but in other words, 1036 01:23:53,720 --> 01:23:57,439 there's not just this, Oh, I go to the neoplatonists and that's 1037 01:23:57,520 --> 01:24:01,720 what my tradition. There's not a tradition of neoplatonists. There's people commenting on 1038 01:24:02,000 --> 01:24:05,680 Plato and Aristotle. Uh, Middle Playton is late play right, So, 1039 01:24:05,760 --> 01:24:11,920 and they're not. It's not just one school and they disagree on very fundamental 1040 01:24:12,000 --> 01:24:15,479 things. That's what people assume that there's like this one mystical tradition that you 1041 01:24:15,560 --> 01:24:18,199 can go to, and then you find out that that didn't actually really exist. 1042 01:24:18,239 --> 01:24:20,560 There's a bunch of different thinkers. It's kind of like when people say, 1043 01:24:20,600 --> 01:24:24,399 are you are you into Cabbalism? Well, did you know that there's 1044 01:24:24,439 --> 01:24:29,560 a whole bunch of contradictory, ridiculous systems known as Cabbalism? Right? And 1045 01:24:29,760 --> 01:24:31,960 there's not. I mean, there are some commonalities, but it's like the 1046 01:24:32,079 --> 01:24:38,840 commonalities are so general that to think that there's like one Cabbalistic thing, it's 1047 01:24:38,920 --> 01:24:42,520 kind of naive and silly. It's the same with Neil Platonism. Uh you 1048 01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:44,600 know, it was like it'd be like if somebody says, I'm into her 1049 01:24:44,680 --> 01:24:47,920 meticism. Ooh, right, Like what does that mean? Really? So 1050 01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:54,359 point being is from the outset of this project, right, we can ask 1051 01:24:54,439 --> 01:24:58,600 all kinds of questions, like how do we know we're mining and digging up 1052 01:24:58,640 --> 01:25:04,239 the right ideas in our toolkit? Yeah? Great question. I'd love to 1053 01:25:04,319 --> 01:25:13,000 hear him explain that because that's that perennialistic really the consumeristic tendency to just like 1054 01:25:13,239 --> 01:25:17,119 pull and pick and choose and bring and amalgamate all these things together. That 1055 01:25:17,800 --> 01:25:26,359 is clearly a post Enlightenment sentiment that he's practicing this perennialistic project. How do 1056 01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,039 you justify what exactly you're pulling other than it suits the goal in which he 1057 01:25:30,159 --> 01:25:34,920 ultimately is trying to put together, which is this weird amalgamation and mixture of 1058 01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:39,119 things. So he doesn't need to justify it, he just needs to show 1059 01:25:39,560 --> 01:25:43,079 at some surface level how it coheres or it connects. Well. This is 1060 01:25:43,119 --> 01:25:45,760 interesting because between him and Peterson, there would be a discrepancy right here, 1061 01:25:45,880 --> 01:25:56,520 because Peterson thinks of post Enlightenment, post Newtonian factual knowledge, science knowledge. 1062 01:25:56,600 --> 01:26:03,079 Peterson calls that dead matter knowledge of dead matter and basically abstraction, right, 1063 01:26:03,800 --> 01:26:08,800 And and Peterson's argumentation the personality courses that oh, we got to get away 1064 01:26:08,840 --> 01:26:14,680 from that and get back to like direct shamanic experience of the totality of our 1065 01:26:14,880 --> 01:26:18,800 you know, culture, right, And that that's a more authentic approach to 1066 01:26:19,199 --> 01:26:25,479 knowing things and figuring out the world than the the dead matter approach of abstract 1067 01:26:25,600 --> 01:26:30,479 Newtonian science and physics. So okay, but wait a minute. So now, 1068 01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:33,520 but we're going to use the scientific project now here with Vervaik. In 1069 01:26:33,560 --> 01:26:36,840 other words, I'm just saying I could theoretically play the role of Peterson and 1070 01:26:36,920 --> 01:26:44,000 say, well, why should I follow scientific cognitive science as the way to 1071 01:26:44,119 --> 01:26:48,279 get to you know, the the science of enlightenment, right because it already 1072 01:26:48,359 --> 01:26:55,880 presupposes the anthropology exactly. It already presupposes that you're just your mind, You're 1073 01:26:56,000 --> 01:27:00,520 just this abstraction of consciousness. So does he have an account for mind? 1074 01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:04,960 I mean, I mean, I didn't find any definite. That's where I 1075 01:27:05,119 --> 01:27:10,239 was ten intent to say that he's fully an emergentist, but it seems like 1076 01:27:10,359 --> 01:27:15,920 but he's clearly wrapped up in Darwinian understandings of evolution. I don't know how 1077 01:27:15,279 --> 01:27:21,399 else he could account for what mind is. And I mean, yeah, 1078 01:27:21,439 --> 01:27:27,560 I assume he is an emergentist, that mind is just an emergent property due 1079 01:27:27,560 --> 01:27:30,560 to synapse connections that you fire enough and now you have sydians, because that's 1080 01:27:30,560 --> 01:27:34,960 the only thing that makes sense on why he's so adamant about AI becoming sentient 1081 01:27:35,079 --> 01:27:40,880 that he's he fully believes that's going to happen, and the only would whether 1082 01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:46,439 you look at Gavalnor Harari or Max Moore, not Natasha Vita Moore, all 1083 01:27:46,520 --> 01:27:56,520 the transhumanists, they all believe that sentience is really the multiplicity of cognitive connections, 1084 01:27:57,199 --> 01:28:01,119 and so if you can just create something that is so interconnectedly dense, 1085 01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:06,479 it will become self aware if it's recognizing patterns. And so that's the basis 1086 01:28:06,560 --> 01:28:12,159 then of their anthropology, because if that's what makes a human sentient, that's 1087 01:28:12,199 --> 01:28:15,439 what's going to make a machine sentient. That totally reduces So that's why then 1088 01:28:15,760 --> 01:28:20,159 the project of redefining and re understanding self, soul and spirit it seems like 1089 01:28:20,600 --> 01:28:26,199 he's doing he's using these terms to redefine them in a context which jive with 1090 01:28:26,319 --> 01:28:30,159 his worldview. Yet what exactly is your soul he talks about, Oh, 1091 01:28:30,199 --> 01:28:32,279 well, it's the piece of you that is part of the of eternity and 1092 01:28:32,359 --> 01:28:38,039 transcendence. But your whole worldview is that there's a Big Bang theory and that 1093 01:28:38,600 --> 01:28:43,439 you know, man evolved from apes and now we're conscious. I don't what. 1094 01:28:43,840 --> 01:28:47,199 It doesn't make any sense because he's I've never heard him explicitly believe in 1095 01:28:47,239 --> 01:28:51,359 a creationist framework, whether it was a Big Bang or not, that there 1096 01:28:51,479 --> 01:28:55,960 was some type of deity and that it was an intentional creation of the world. 1097 01:28:56,000 --> 01:28:58,479 I've never heard him say that, so it seems like he totally buys 1098 01:28:58,520 --> 01:29:03,560 into the secular cosmology. Yet then he's trying to infuse all these spiritual terms 1099 01:29:03,600 --> 01:29:10,560 into a sort of secular, modern transhumanist understanding of man. Well, this 1100 01:29:10,760 --> 01:29:13,920 is another oddity when it comes to the notion of science. I mean, 1101 01:29:13,920 --> 01:29:16,960 I think we would all agree that audity and verveakia. I mean, science 1102 01:29:17,359 --> 01:29:21,199 does deal with the domain of the empirical right. I mean, science is 1103 01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:26,439 uh, you know, a tool for understanding and mastering the natural world. 1104 01:29:26,560 --> 01:29:30,399 It's a it's a means by which we you know, propose theories and then 1105 01:29:30,520 --> 01:29:34,520 test them. And that's the scientific method. So you know, science is 1106 01:29:34,600 --> 01:29:41,079 bound up with I wouldn't say it's totally reduced to empirical knowledge and sense data, 1107 01:29:41,159 --> 01:29:45,119 because science uses logic, it uses mathematics for you know, engineering and 1108 01:29:45,159 --> 01:29:48,079 stuff like that. Sure, but it's still within the domain of studying the 1109 01:29:48,199 --> 01:29:53,159 natural world with you you know, with using empirical sense data and so forth. 1110 01:29:53,960 --> 01:29:58,479 So if that's what we're doing in this process, we're tied to the 1111 01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:03,840 empirical How are we getting all of this metaphysical baggage as a cognitive scientist. 1112 01:30:03,960 --> 01:30:10,279 That's what I don't understand. Because everybody in the domain of science, right 1113 01:30:10,439 --> 01:30:13,680 who's going to be probably a materialist, right, they're gonna be They're gonna 1114 01:30:13,720 --> 01:30:18,479 say, wait a minute, where under the microscope is being? I don't 1115 01:30:18,479 --> 01:30:23,640 see being under the microscope? Right, right? And so if so, 1116 01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:27,680 we're back to the Hume problem here, right. So it's it's fine to 1117 01:30:27,760 --> 01:30:30,680 say I want to deal with humans challenges and problems, but to then say, 1118 01:30:31,520 --> 01:30:33,920 and here's how I deal with it. There's I just have all this 1119 01:30:34,039 --> 01:30:39,199 metaphysics as the ground of being, But how does that do the work of 1120 01:30:39,279 --> 01:30:41,359 being the ground of being? Just because you're saying you have all these It 1121 01:30:41,600 --> 01:30:44,960 reminds me of the Matt Dill Honey debate where he's like, uh, well, 1122 01:30:45,039 --> 01:30:47,000 I don't have to give an account for transcenital categories. I need them, 1123 01:30:47,079 --> 01:30:50,800 they just are right. Well, that's that's essentially what he's doing though, 1124 01:30:51,239 --> 01:30:55,560 right, because he rejects revelation, which is the point of the tag 1125 01:30:55,720 --> 01:31:00,680 argument. Yet he's exactly to adopt a TAG framework exactly reject revelation and build 1126 01:31:00,720 --> 01:31:04,720 a tag framework naturalistically. That's why he calls it transcendent naturalism. That's why 1127 01:31:04,800 --> 01:31:08,479 he named it that. So he's like, Okay, Mott Delahune, you 1128 01:31:08,520 --> 01:31:12,079 make a good point. Now here's my I'm going to give you this system, 1129 01:31:12,359 --> 01:31:15,680 right, the grand system building project that is a naturalistic because that would 1130 01:31:15,680 --> 01:31:23,279 be my number one question for him is how do you know that this religio 1131 01:31:23,720 --> 01:31:41,359 transcendent, ineffable godlike you hear me, you're back, How do you know 1132 01:31:41,479 --> 01:31:44,520 this transcendent god being? Yeah, how do you know that there's this transcendent 1133 01:31:44,600 --> 01:31:48,319 metaphor? Because what he's doing is he's just he's realizing his shortcoming. And 1134 01:31:48,439 --> 01:31:53,359 then he's just like, Okay, well then I'll just pose it this metaphysical 1135 01:31:53,520 --> 01:31:59,600 godlike ambiguous transcendent entity, place that as this fundamental thing that is again in 1136 01:31:59,680 --> 01:32:06,119 a alien censusist process theology. Allah whitehead a lah hegel. And now I 1137 01:32:06,199 --> 01:32:10,039 don't have to account for it. I don't need revelation. I can say 1138 01:32:10,079 --> 01:32:15,359 that this is just evident based on again deeper phenomenological experiences. So psychedelics, 1139 01:32:15,760 --> 01:32:20,760 transcendental meditation, yoga, these are ways in which Now, but why should 1140 01:32:20,800 --> 01:32:27,800 we believe that your inner experience of you know, a psychedelic trip is somehow 1141 01:32:27,960 --> 01:32:34,119 an insight into metaphysical reality as a whole. Exactly. I don't think he'd 1142 01:32:34,119 --> 01:32:39,399 be able to answer these because nobody questions it because everybody he has on his 1143 01:32:39,439 --> 01:32:42,920 show is in favor of his project, and they're either working with him or 1144 01:32:42,960 --> 01:32:47,359 they're adjacent to the project in one way or another. He can't. That's 1145 01:32:47,399 --> 01:32:51,199 his get out of jail free card is that he just claims that this is 1146 01:32:51,279 --> 01:32:57,079 what Again, he doesn't like to use God, but divinity is, and 1147 01:32:57,199 --> 01:33:00,479 now he has a basis for it, and then he just uses a Hegelian 1148 01:33:00,520 --> 01:33:03,800 concept. That's why DialogOS is, like I said earlier, is so important 1149 01:33:03,840 --> 01:33:08,279 to his framework because oh, well, you don't know who you are without 1150 01:33:08,319 --> 01:33:11,119 the other person. And so this is where he begins to use rhetoric about 1151 01:33:11,119 --> 01:33:15,399 collapsing dialectics and stuff. Yet his whole project is about pure unity and monism. 1152 01:33:15,840 --> 01:33:19,399 Yeah, And that's the problem is that there's always going to be metaphysical 1153 01:33:19,479 --> 01:33:25,560 dialectical problems in these kinds of projects and worldviews because if you do not have 1154 01:33:25,800 --> 01:33:28,800 the triad, if you do not have the essenceinary distinction. If you do 1155 01:33:28,920 --> 01:33:32,000 not have the creator creature distinction, and if you do not have you know, 1156 01:33:32,119 --> 01:33:35,479 human beings made the image of God He have the ability to act and 1157 01:33:35,560 --> 01:33:40,880 to reason and to to you know, exercise free will and their own created 1158 01:33:40,960 --> 01:33:44,760 energies in the world, then you're not going to have an explanation for these 1159 01:33:44,840 --> 01:33:48,000 overarching principles that you want to try to use to explain your system. They're 1160 01:33:48,039 --> 01:33:54,680 going to fall over into either monism, dualism, or some form of maya 1161 01:33:54,840 --> 01:33:59,159 or something that cancels out the monis dualist dialectic. And so that's what we 1162 01:33:59,239 --> 01:34:03,319 see in Eastern plosophies is just contradicting and flip flopping back and forth between these 1163 01:34:04,279 --> 01:34:11,760 these overriding metaphysical positions, and that ends up canceling out the possibility of knowledge 1164 01:34:11,800 --> 01:34:15,399 at all. So what you end up with is a dead end project and 1165 01:34:15,479 --> 01:34:17,680 a human here's the irony of it. It's what Ventil said a long time 1166 01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:23,720 ago. He said that within the non believing paradigm, there's always this intense 1167 01:34:24,760 --> 01:34:30,720 opposition between reality and their mind being hyper rational. In other words, everything 1168 01:34:30,880 --> 01:34:35,239 is categoric, categorizable, and coherent, and I can build a system as 1169 01:34:35,279 --> 01:34:40,239 a human being, but at the same time, I'm an emergent piece of 1170 01:34:40,439 --> 01:34:45,159 muck from the primordial stew and everything is chaos and irrational. So ultimate reality 1171 01:34:45,279 --> 01:34:50,720 is rational and irrational, and never can the Twain mix within the unbelieving paradigm. 1172 01:34:50,800 --> 01:34:55,680 And that's a devastating critique of Ventil gave I think right, and he 1173 01:34:55,720 --> 01:34:59,680 would he in one of the streams, he would he would probably agree with 1174 01:34:59,760 --> 01:35:03,159 that and say what he's doing is he's making room for both. And so 1175 01:35:04,039 --> 01:35:10,159 like you were talking about his basis of man or whatnot, or why we're 1176 01:35:10,279 --> 01:35:14,640 unique, because he believes in this macroevolution stuff. So therefore, what exactly 1177 01:35:14,800 --> 01:35:16,439 you can't say man is not an animal? I mean, this is where 1178 01:35:16,520 --> 01:35:19,680 you've all know. Harari is explicit like it's all one continuum, there is 1179 01:35:19,800 --> 01:35:25,680 no essence there. How can you define? He's against basically the whole animal 1180 01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:30,439 kingdom in regards that there is there's distinct essences between things. And yet he 1181 01:35:30,520 --> 01:35:35,840 wants to talk about we have moral obligations to create these ais, that man 1182 01:35:36,039 --> 01:35:42,960 is unique, that we get to participate in divinity. How so, well, 1183 01:35:43,000 --> 01:35:45,520 I guess he's just arguing we're irrational creatures, which is part of the 1184 01:35:45,560 --> 01:35:50,159 post Enlightenment project that he says he's trying to undermine, because if your basis 1185 01:35:50,199 --> 01:35:56,039 of humanity is that your rational, you're back into the nineteenth century. I 1186 01:35:56,119 --> 01:35:59,279 mean, in the eighteenth century. It's like what Yeah, well, and 1187 01:35:59,319 --> 01:36:00,920 I would say too that. Well, wait a minute, So, like 1188 01:36:01,039 --> 01:36:03,920 you said it a few minutes ago, or at the beginning of that comment, 1189 01:36:04,079 --> 01:36:10,840 you said to Vervaki might actually accept that ultimate reality is irrational and ultimate 1190 01:36:10,880 --> 01:36:15,720 reality is ultimately rational. Well, that's a contradiction. Those are mutually exclusive 1191 01:36:15,800 --> 01:36:17,079 claims. And so if we're going to get to the point where at the 1192 01:36:17,800 --> 01:36:26,680 very most basic ground of our worldview we're affirming outright contradictions, then we don't 1193 01:36:26,680 --> 01:36:30,279 have a coherent worldview. Because if you can affirm ground level contradictions, if 1194 01:36:30,279 --> 01:36:33,560 I were to contrast my worldview with you, then I can do the same 1195 01:36:33,640 --> 01:36:39,600 thing and see this worldview then has no answer and has no way to say, 1196 01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:45,319 Hey, this paradigm's true, that paradigm's false. If contradictions are allowable, 1197 01:36:45,359 --> 01:36:48,159 then no paradigms are true and no paradigms are false. Yeah, and 1198 01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:51,920 I think he would agree with that, and then he'd say well, ultimate 1199 01:36:53,000 --> 01:37:00,600 reality is this divine ground underneath it, and using the neoplatonic appo epathatic terminology, 1200 01:37:00,640 --> 01:37:04,239 would say, well, it is irrational. It's beyond rationality. You 1201 01:37:04,319 --> 01:37:08,600 see, the ground of being is sort of beyond rationality. But then our 1202 01:37:08,720 --> 01:37:12,920 engagement with it is all about irrational apprehension. Is that and that's why his 1203 01:37:13,039 --> 01:37:15,720 project that is bringing God back into the mix so that we can get a 1204 01:37:15,840 --> 01:37:20,239 totalized worldview. It's ridiculous, it makes no sense, it's incoherent, It 1205 01:37:20,319 --> 01:37:30,439 fundamentally contradicts itself. And yet he references the entire litany of like philosophy from 1206 01:37:30,520 --> 01:37:34,000 Descartes forward, so he uses everybody. He's referencing everybody in his work, 1207 01:37:34,279 --> 01:37:42,359 you know, all across different fields and traditions and time periods. But ultimately, 1208 01:37:42,479 --> 01:37:46,119 when you do a paradigmatic criticism of it, it collapses, It falls 1209 01:37:46,159 --> 01:37:49,840 apart. There's no there there, it's not standing on anything. He's just 1210 01:37:49,960 --> 01:37:55,560 pulled out of his ass that there's a fundamental divine ground of being and therefore 1211 01:37:55,880 --> 01:37:58,000 you want to get in touch of that. Well, we do science during 1212 01:37:58,039 --> 01:38:00,279 the day, and then we do tai chi and yoga in transital meditation at 1213 01:38:00,399 --> 01:38:03,319 night. Now, you're a whole person. Now you can solve the meaning 1214 01:38:03,399 --> 01:38:09,199 crisis. Yeah, it does any of that give a justification for any ethic 1215 01:38:09,359 --> 01:38:12,039 right. I mean, let's we've talked, we've talked to all kinds of 1216 01:38:12,199 --> 01:38:15,600 metaphysics and epistemology, but let's make it really basic and simple. Does this 1217 01:38:15,720 --> 01:38:19,960 worldview tell me whether it's wrong to murder? Does it tell me in what 1218 01:38:20,159 --> 01:38:25,039 way or with what justification it's wrong for me to cheat on my wife or 1219 01:38:25,199 --> 01:38:29,279 whatever? Right? I mean, we have the Ten Commandments in divine revelation 1220 01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:32,399 and that works very well for a function of society. Can your worldview at 1221 01:38:32,439 --> 01:38:35,039 least give me something like the ten Commandments? And don't, by the way, 1222 01:38:35,199 --> 01:38:39,640 just copy and paste it, because I want another justification for why in 1223 01:38:39,760 --> 01:38:44,880 your worldview I should follow the ten Commandments. And he would say that again 1224 01:38:44,920 --> 01:38:49,439 the rejecting the natural fallacy, that the naturalistic fallacy, that he can naturalistically 1225 01:38:49,560 --> 01:38:54,680 define objective morality. And I totally reject that he can do that. But 1226 01:38:54,760 --> 01:38:57,920 he's explicit he thinks he can. He thinks he can, he thinks he 1227 01:38:57,960 --> 01:39:00,520 can naturalistically define objective I mean, Sam Harris was on a project. I 1228 01:39:00,560 --> 01:39:04,359 would say, Harris, say something like that. Yeah, he's trying to 1229 01:39:04,439 --> 01:39:10,439 do the same thing. Vervaiki is a little bit more in debt and nuanced 1230 01:39:10,560 --> 01:39:13,680 than I would say Sam Harris was, but it's the same thing. He 1231 01:39:13,800 --> 01:39:17,439 thinks that, Well, if really then the ground of being is divine, 1232 01:39:17,960 --> 01:39:24,720 you shouldn't kill somebody because you'd be harming being. You know, I don't 1233 01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:27,000 know if that's exactly what he would say, but he'd have to go into 1234 01:39:27,079 --> 01:39:34,800 that terminology to naturalistically to define. He made the explicit claim that he can't 1235 01:39:34,880 --> 01:39:43,560 objectively he can have objective morality through naturalistic inquiry, uh and and define it. 1236 01:39:43,840 --> 01:39:46,039 I reject that he can do that. I think it's totally incomprehensible and 1237 01:39:46,119 --> 01:39:49,319 that there's no way that he can come with. But that's why he That's 1238 01:39:49,319 --> 01:39:55,119 why again it's so important to reject the naturalistic fallacy because if you don't, 1239 01:39:55,319 --> 01:39:58,760 if you don't, then he's stuck. And exactly what you just said. 1240 01:39:58,840 --> 01:40:01,760 You can't tell me why I shouldn't rape or why I shouldn't kill somebody because 1241 01:40:01,760 --> 01:40:05,199 they have something I want. Well, if you reject the naturalistic fallacy, 1242 01:40:05,279 --> 01:40:09,239 now you can. You can say, well, yeah I can because of 1243 01:40:09,399 --> 01:40:14,199 some you know, Rigamarole answer that you give. Yeah, but again I 1244 01:40:14,239 --> 01:40:17,479 mean just to say, well, God is, or there is a generic 1245 01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:23,560 thing I call God that is the ground of being, that's not actually solving 1246 01:40:23,920 --> 01:40:29,159 the Isa dilemma. So I mean you were saying something like he thinks that 1247 01:40:29,880 --> 01:40:34,119 he thinks as a result, because if you talk about being that you're necessarily 1248 01:40:34,319 --> 01:40:39,079 involved in like the good, which is again that's that's just neoplatonism, but 1249 01:40:39,560 --> 01:40:42,760 exactly. But the point is that like, but that doesn't mean that that 1250 01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:45,439 I should follow that because I'm because I'm doing that right. So in other 1251 01:40:45,479 --> 01:40:49,199 words, if you read the russ Manion critique, he has a really good 1252 01:40:49,239 --> 01:40:56,960 point about you know, let's say that let's say that it is true that 1253 01:40:57,159 --> 01:41:00,600 the system that you have is coherent, but it doesn't follow that because the 1254 01:41:00,680 --> 01:41:04,760 system is coherent, or I have this schema in my head of you know, 1255 01:41:04,960 --> 01:41:09,800 how all this stuff works, that it maps onto the external world. 1256 01:41:10,640 --> 01:41:13,760 So maybe it does, but how do I know that it maps onto the 1257 01:41:13,880 --> 01:41:16,399 external world? All this all this schema and all this all these ideas and 1258 01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:19,199 metaphysics in my head, right, how do I know that that actually maps 1259 01:41:19,279 --> 01:41:24,199 onto the world, or that all that all of this necessary connection where I 1260 01:41:24,239 --> 01:41:27,119 think is necessary in my head, actually is the case in the external world. 1261 01:41:27,159 --> 01:41:30,960 How do I know that? Right? That's a that's a great critique 1262 01:41:30,000 --> 01:41:35,479 that Manion has. Two people who might say something like, well, you 1263 01:41:35,600 --> 01:41:41,560 know it is. It just has to be this way. I can't conceive 1264 01:41:41,640 --> 01:41:44,880 of it being any other way. Right, This is a common response people 1265 01:41:44,960 --> 01:41:48,960 say. But actually, just the fact that you can't conceive of it being 1266 01:41:49,000 --> 01:41:56,640 another way actually doesn't grant you epistemic justification for that belief, right All that 1267 01:41:56,800 --> 01:41:59,920 all that says is that you can't conceive of it another way. It doesn't 1268 01:42:00,159 --> 01:42:03,720 mean that it's therefore true. Maybe it is, but that's not enough for 1269 01:42:03,880 --> 01:42:10,279 justification. And that's why it's ironic that he's at the same time he's critical 1270 01:42:10,319 --> 01:42:15,119 of the postmodern turn and this immense relativism. I mean, for me, 1271 01:42:15,279 --> 01:42:19,239 looking at it as an Orthodoctrician, I would lay many of the same criticisms 1272 01:42:19,279 --> 01:42:24,319 at his project, even though he sees it as responding against it. I 1273 01:42:24,439 --> 01:42:31,279 mean, my gosh, wasn't the immense perennialism is relativistic, the arbitrary grabbing 1274 01:42:31,399 --> 01:42:36,840 of divinity being the fundamental ground of being, or just adopting Hangele that seems 1275 01:42:36,880 --> 01:42:43,119 to be arbitrary. And then you're bringing together the rejection of the natural. 1276 01:42:43,359 --> 01:42:47,119 It seems like you're moving into relativism. And so it's like rejecting postmodernism and 1277 01:42:47,199 --> 01:42:55,800 sort of bringing in a sort of scientific postmodern state where we listen to science 1278 01:42:55,840 --> 01:42:59,920 and now we can just create these new things without a full coherent metaphysical frame. 1279 01:43:00,840 --> 01:43:02,600 Yeah, I mean this is why you can't get rid of metaphysics and 1280 01:43:03,000 --> 01:43:06,319 nuance in this Like if you think about we'll go to the super chests in 1281 01:43:06,359 --> 01:43:09,880 a second, if you if you need to you need to get out of 1282 01:43:09,920 --> 01:43:13,279 here, or if you've got more time. Yeah, you know, we 1283 01:43:13,359 --> 01:43:15,760 were talking to doctor Branson and he was getting into last or a couple of 1284 01:43:15,840 --> 01:43:20,239 nights ago, a couple of the points about why you have to kind of 1285 01:43:20,279 --> 01:43:25,600 make a lot of these distinctions with word and reference. And you know, 1286 01:43:25,640 --> 01:43:29,279 when it comes to trinitarian theology, for example, a lot of times Unitarians 1287 01:43:29,359 --> 01:43:32,479 or Arians or Muslims will make these arguments about how well, when you say 1288 01:43:32,560 --> 01:43:36,560 there's one God, you know, how do you posit three persons, because 1289 01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:41,319 that would be three gods. Because God has to refer to the divine nature, 1290 01:43:41,840 --> 01:43:45,880 or to the Father alone. Right, But the word God or divinity 1291 01:43:45,680 --> 01:43:49,159 or so, let's say, the word divine being, I mean that could 1292 01:43:49,199 --> 01:43:53,640 pick out let's say in the Biblical tradition, I mean that picks out different 1293 01:43:53,680 --> 01:43:58,560 things. Let's say divinity. Divinity could pick out you know, when Jesus 1294 01:43:58,600 --> 01:44:03,199 says to his followers, you are God's right, it could be those use 1295 01:44:03,239 --> 01:44:08,239 the word the word god. So it could be created beings. It could 1296 01:44:08,279 --> 01:44:14,279 be the gods of the nations are demons, Paul says and David says, 1297 01:44:14,439 --> 01:44:18,279 so it could pick out devils, the elohem. The angels are called gods, 1298 01:44:18,359 --> 01:44:23,079 they're called elohem, they're called divine beings. So it could pick out 1299 01:44:23,159 --> 01:44:27,920 angels. God could also pick out a divine person. It could pick out 1300 01:44:27,960 --> 01:44:30,479 the divine nature, and it could pick out divine energies or attributes. You 1301 01:44:30,520 --> 01:44:33,520 could say, you know, God's love is God. Yes, you could 1302 01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:38,840 say that, right. So, the word God doesn't have a simple one 1303 01:44:38,920 --> 01:44:43,840 to one reference. It's going to depend upon context and intentionality for their author 1304 01:44:43,920 --> 01:44:47,880 or the writer or the argument or the paragraph or whatever. So when when 1305 01:44:47,920 --> 01:44:53,439 I hear things like, oh, well, I believe in a transcendent deity, 1306 01:44:54,039 --> 01:44:57,319 oh, like, is it just a thought? Is it a demon? 1307 01:44:58,000 --> 01:45:00,359 Is it an angel? Is? I mean, the the word deity 1308 01:45:00,439 --> 01:45:04,479 or divinity is not a specific term. It depends on the reference and the 1309 01:45:04,800 --> 01:45:09,640 intentionality in the context. Well, and that's a huge part of his project, 1310 01:45:09,720 --> 01:45:15,119 as we begin with even talking about the verbosity of his it's so verbose 1311 01:45:15,199 --> 01:45:18,560 how he describes and writes and does all this stuff that it's just he's taking 1312 01:45:18,640 --> 01:45:23,880 so many generic terms and then putting them in their own new context, and 1313 01:45:24,680 --> 01:45:27,119 then he just moves on to the next point. It's just there's so much 1314 01:45:27,239 --> 01:45:31,840 going on. He never fully explains how this in its particular context relates to 1315 01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:38,000 what he's talking about right now. And like you said, this generic concepts 1316 01:45:38,039 --> 01:45:42,640 of God, generic concepts of self. I mean, he's always talking about 1317 01:45:42,680 --> 01:45:45,800 the better, the better, the good, the good, virtue, virtue, 1318 01:45:45,279 --> 01:45:47,720 what is it? How do you even know what it is? I 1319 01:45:47,960 --> 01:45:53,359 still do not know how he comes up with what exactly the good, the 1320 01:45:53,439 --> 01:45:58,359 better and virtue is in his worldview that would be coherent and justified. I 1321 01:45:58,359 --> 01:46:01,840 don't see how he can. Yet another question, maybe back to the psychedelic 1322 01:46:01,880 --> 01:46:04,439 stuff, because I know you've done a lot of research in that area. 1323 01:46:04,560 --> 01:46:11,840 You and I both have in our earlier times younger days, done multiple hallucinogens 1324 01:46:11,880 --> 01:46:21,359 and whatnot. There's an assumption that hallucinogens somehow give a person automatically like this 1325 01:46:21,840 --> 01:46:28,239 perception into reality. I don't think it necessarily does. I think that you 1326 01:46:28,359 --> 01:46:31,479 could have an experience on a hallucingen that's not necessarily bad, that might cause 1327 01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:34,960 you to think in a certain way. It might give you a creative insight 1328 01:46:35,119 --> 01:46:42,479 that these things are possible. But the over romanticization of hallucinogens as if they 1329 01:46:42,680 --> 01:46:45,840 are this sort of like sacrament, the way that a lot of these people 1330 01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:49,399 view it. Do you have what would you say to that, like to 1331 01:46:49,479 --> 01:46:53,880 somebody who said, is it really this way or is that an exaggeration? 1332 01:46:54,720 --> 01:46:58,039 Yeah, I totally agree with you. Is that how First of all, 1333 01:46:58,079 --> 01:47:01,239 if anybody's done those substances, you know how radical the experiences and the insights 1334 01:47:01,319 --> 01:47:04,520 and your perspective can be on certain things. I mean, you can sit 1335 01:47:05,039 --> 01:47:08,880 in a room and all of a sudden, you know, something looks like 1336 01:47:08,960 --> 01:47:13,159 it's melting, or some shadow looks like it's talking to you. So you're 1337 01:47:13,399 --> 01:47:17,319 into this really altered state of consciousness, and yet you might have insight into, 1338 01:47:17,359 --> 01:47:21,319 meaning you may have a hope into things that maybe you were depressed about 1339 01:47:21,439 --> 01:47:26,399 or doubtful about. I don't doubt that at all. But when people think 1340 01:47:26,479 --> 01:47:31,800 that psychedelics themselves give them a deeper insight into the nature of being, I 1341 01:47:31,880 --> 01:47:36,279 don't see how they can make that case given the varieties of experiences. I 1342 01:47:36,359 --> 01:47:40,399 mean, the Mayans are a cult, or the Aztecs rather are a culture 1343 01:47:41,159 --> 01:47:45,920 oriented around ritual mushroom use, typically around the sacrifice of people, which they 1344 01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:48,439 would do hundreds at a time, and they would, you know, take 1345 01:47:48,479 --> 01:47:56,000 out live beating hearts. Is that somehow insightful to the psychedelics' spirituality? I 1346 01:47:56,079 --> 01:48:00,439 mean, I don't understand the berserkers in Scandinavia. They would get high on 1347 01:48:00,520 --> 01:48:05,159 mushrooms before they went to war because it made them less cautious and fearful. 1348 01:48:08,079 --> 01:48:13,399 So the people who believe that they take these high dose psychedelics and somehow enter 1349 01:48:13,600 --> 01:48:19,039 into a state of pure understanding and knowing, oftentimes they can't even remember what 1350 01:48:19,079 --> 01:48:23,239 they tripped about once they get down, because once you're out of the high, 1351 01:48:23,439 --> 01:48:30,239 it becomes convoluted. You're not sure what you experienced. The emotional euphoric 1352 01:48:30,359 --> 01:48:34,560 experiences gone so people kind of lose what it is they thought they were gaining 1353 01:48:34,640 --> 01:48:39,119 in the first place. I don't doubt that people have had positive experiences, 1354 01:48:39,239 --> 01:48:46,239 I'm sure, but in regards to psychedelics as a explicit technology or practice that 1355 01:48:46,359 --> 01:48:49,800 takes you into deeper understanding, I believe that at one point, and it 1356 01:48:49,960 --> 01:48:53,840 was me having my own experiences where I came out of a trip thinking that 1357 01:48:53,920 --> 01:48:57,000 something was true or that something was about to happen in my life, and 1358 01:48:57,079 --> 01:48:59,720 then it didn't happen. And that happened a few times, to the point 1359 01:48:59,720 --> 01:49:02,680 where I like, damn, this stuff is not you know, whatever happens 1360 01:49:02,720 --> 01:49:05,439 to me in these altered states, it's not gospel. It's not going to 1361 01:49:05,560 --> 01:49:11,199 happen. Multiple times, the opposite actually occurred, and that really got me 1362 01:49:11,399 --> 01:49:15,279 questioning this whole thing that somehow psychedelics are the answer to everything, and that 1363 01:49:15,439 --> 01:49:18,800 they are they allow you to sort of escape the matrix, get your mind 1364 01:49:18,840 --> 01:49:23,560 outside the matrix. Well, in many ways, your mind goes deeper into 1365 01:49:23,640 --> 01:49:28,439 the matrix exactly. That's a great point. And let's also not ignore the 1366 01:49:28,560 --> 01:49:32,600 negative effects that many people have on these substances. Now you could argue that, 1367 01:49:33,239 --> 01:49:38,159 well, it's not actually the substance. It's that person already having psychological 1368 01:49:38,279 --> 01:49:43,600 problems, trauma or whatever that's coming out. But regardless, like remember the 1369 01:49:45,279 --> 01:49:49,399 the who's the fitness YouTube dude that like descended into madness through constantly doing drugs. 1370 01:49:49,439 --> 01:49:53,880 Oh, Connor Murphy exactly right, So wait a minute, So was 1371 01:49:53,920 --> 01:49:58,199 he getting a deeper insight into reality by basically going into madness? I mean, 1372 01:49:58,720 --> 01:50:01,880 in other words, there's this this this assumption, this this romanticization of 1373 01:50:02,079 --> 01:50:04,960 madness, right, and we think of, oh, the artist is the 1374 01:50:05,079 --> 01:50:12,399 genius who's insane. Yes, sometimes there is a fine line between kind of 1375 01:50:12,399 --> 01:50:15,279 an insanity and genius. But also in a lot of drug culture, in 1376 01:50:15,359 --> 01:50:20,479 a lot of counterculture, there's again this over romanticization of the idea that just 1377 01:50:20,600 --> 01:50:26,399 being a degenera and but just being basically schizophrenic makes you this sort of artistic 1378 01:50:26,479 --> 01:50:30,159 genius, which is nonsense. Right. Well, I think it's we're seeing 1379 01:50:30,279 --> 01:50:35,640 a culture sort of veneration of chaos and it's really the rejection of God. 1380 01:50:36,279 --> 01:50:43,479 Well, remember Peterson says that the chaos is the necessary correlation to order, 1381 01:50:45,039 --> 01:50:53,279 because he believes that because he's collapsed non being into the opposite of being right, 1382 01:50:53,399 --> 01:50:58,439 and so he has a dualistic framework, and so he thinks that non 1383 01:50:58,560 --> 01:51:01,479 being his opposite of being, and good is upsote of evil, and chaos 1384 01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:05,520 is the upside of order. And he thinks that by chaos that basically means 1385 01:51:05,640 --> 01:51:12,920 anything that brings about challenges in your life. The chaos is necessary. Evil 1386 01:51:13,039 --> 01:51:15,600 is chaos, and so evil is necessary if you were consistent in that worldview. 1387 01:51:16,159 --> 01:51:21,319 Right well, And that's also what people who are theistic Satanists worship because 1388 01:51:21,319 --> 01:51:25,359 they say, well, God couldn't exist without Satan, so who's really powerful? 1389 01:51:25,520 --> 01:51:29,479 Right well, Again, any traditional Christian worldview, I your order, 1390 01:51:29,520 --> 01:51:31,439 Dox, you wouldn't think that at all, because chaos is just the privation 1391 01:51:31,600 --> 01:51:36,520 of God's order. So order is something to be aspired towards. Always talking 1392 01:51:36,520 --> 01:51:42,359 about dered in grammatology where he goes into the foul logo centrism as this thing 1393 01:51:42,439 --> 01:51:46,000 that they have to undermine. Well, that's what I see culture generally speaking. 1394 01:51:46,159 --> 01:51:51,880 It's antifoul logo centric, and so it's not interested in the center. 1395 01:51:53,039 --> 01:51:57,119 It's not interested in a logos oriented worldview, and it's definitely not interested in 1396 01:51:57,199 --> 01:52:00,640 a mask of proval. Not that men are better than we in but there's 1397 01:52:00,680 --> 01:52:04,520 a privileged understanding of the role of men in society. Well, now it 1398 01:52:04,640 --> 01:52:11,600 hits on everything we just talked about with Peterson and Andrew Tate. You can 1399 01:52:11,680 --> 01:52:16,039 see this void then for people to give voice to foul logo centrumrism. According 1400 01:52:16,039 --> 01:52:20,319 to Dereta, you can't take it away from Christianity. It is the central 1401 01:52:20,359 --> 01:52:26,000 pillar of Christianity. So then now we're seeing all these people give rhetoric to 1402 01:52:26,039 --> 01:52:29,760 foul logo centrism, but Christianity is not there to actually be. Yeah, 1403 01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:32,800 it's basically, let me have all the metaphysics and the tool kit without the 1404 01:52:33,119 --> 01:52:38,640 without Jesus, without the Trinity, and the irony I would say, as 1405 01:52:38,640 --> 01:52:40,880 we come here, maybe to the end before we go to the super chats, 1406 01:52:41,000 --> 01:52:45,600 the irony is that the meaning crisis, the meaning that he's looking for 1407 01:52:45,720 --> 01:52:49,079 there. Guess what, it's logos. The answer to the meaning crisis is 1408 01:52:49,159 --> 01:52:54,640 in John one as the logos, who is the explainer, the reason, 1409 01:52:54,920 --> 01:53:00,359 the meaning of the fathers. The Son is the logos, the wisdom, 1410 01:53:00,479 --> 01:53:02,800 the mind, the explanation, the exegesus of the Father. In fact, 1411 01:53:02,880 --> 01:53:06,760 in John one it says, it actually says in the Greek he because he 1412 01:53:06,920 --> 01:53:12,720 is the Exegete of he Exegetes explains the Father to us. So our ultimate 1413 01:53:12,840 --> 01:53:15,880 source is God the Father, and the way that we come to God the 1414 01:53:15,960 --> 01:53:20,399 Father is through that logos reason of the Son. And that's the very thing 1415 01:53:20,560 --> 01:53:26,960 that he's grasping for in this system. And that's why he's redefined logos as 1416 01:53:26,960 --> 01:53:30,239 epistemology. Right, So thing of everything you just said that Christ is and 1417 01:53:30,439 --> 01:53:33,840 he wants all that, he wants to use all that rhetoric he wants to 1418 01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:40,960 borrow from Orthodox He especially theosis and energy understanding of the uncreated energies and stuff 1419 01:53:41,000 --> 01:53:45,800 like this. But then logos is just again it gets abstracted. It's not 1420 01:53:45,199 --> 01:53:48,119 Jesus Christ, it's not the incarnation of God, it's not the history. 1421 01:53:48,159 --> 01:53:51,720 Well, it's just my own reasoning. It's a pistemology. Yeah, it's 1422 01:53:51,760 --> 01:53:58,359 how it's Well, logos is objectively real because two plus two equals four. 1423 01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:01,640 Okay, yeah, I agree with that, But what is the logo is 1424 01:54:01,720 --> 01:54:05,800 way more than all that, Like, he won't go further because that would 1425 01:54:05,880 --> 01:54:11,680 necessity necessitate him to recognize the Christian paradigm, which his whole project is to 1426 01:54:11,760 --> 01:54:19,119 not do exactly any closing thoughts on Verveki before we head on over to the 1427 01:54:19,159 --> 01:54:24,520 super chats. Has been a great discussion and I think you you definitely brought 1428 01:54:24,720 --> 01:54:29,479 the you know, intellectual weight here to give I think a sufficient critique. 1429 01:54:30,479 --> 01:54:33,000 Again, not that we you know, dislike him on a personal level or 1430 01:54:33,039 --> 01:54:36,319 anything like that, just just just interacting with the ideas and how we would 1431 01:54:36,359 --> 01:54:40,800 critique it. Any final thoughts before we go to superchats. Yeah, I 1432 01:54:41,000 --> 01:54:43,560 just like to say that I, like I said, I don't know the 1433 01:54:43,600 --> 01:54:47,640 intentions of Erveaki, and our conversation day was not to disparage him or say 1434 01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:53,600 anything negative about him as a person. We're just analyzing his ideas and when 1435 01:54:53,640 --> 01:54:59,439 you look at what his project is, it's really about constructing what he calls 1436 01:54:59,479 --> 01:55:05,000 the Religion of Tomorrow. The Religion of Tomorrow is a religious discourse and rhetoric 1437 01:55:05,079 --> 01:55:10,800 built upon what he calls transcendent naturalism, which is the idea that he can 1438 01:55:10,880 --> 01:55:16,760 basically build an entire spiritual paradigm through naturalistic endeavors. And and he does that 1439 01:55:16,920 --> 01:55:21,039 by rejecting the naturalistic fallacy, which is essential to his project. And he 1440 01:55:21,119 --> 01:55:24,800 has all these scholars because I guess this is a move in philosophy which I 1441 01:55:24,920 --> 01:55:28,439 was not familiar with until there's him talk because he starts pulling out all these 1442 01:55:28,479 --> 01:55:31,000 books, these modern new books that have been written about why we have to 1443 01:55:31,079 --> 01:55:35,840 reject the naturalistic fallacy. And so to me, this is all part and 1444 01:55:35,960 --> 01:55:42,039 parcel of all these post turns, so that we're in a posthumanism. Transhumanism 1445 01:55:42,119 --> 01:55:47,720 is explicit about being post humanism. Post secularism. Post secularism is also a 1446 01:55:47,800 --> 01:55:55,520 new stage that philosophy describes where discourse between or religious and secular discourse collapses, 1447 01:55:55,720 --> 01:56:00,720 that there now is no distinction. All discourse is religious, all discourse secular. 1448 01:56:00,279 --> 01:56:04,399 This is part of the post secular term. So his project is in 1449 01:56:04,520 --> 01:56:09,840 the middle of all these different things. And that's why he's responding to the 1450 01:56:09,920 --> 01:56:14,479 meaning crisis, all these series on awakening from the meaning crisis. You awaken 1451 01:56:14,560 --> 01:56:19,439 from the meaning crisis by realizing that there is this fundamental ground of spirituality or 1452 01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:27,520 God or divinity and that you then can experience that in your self through tai 1453 01:56:27,640 --> 01:56:31,119 chi, martial arts, yoga, transcendental meditation. And so he's saying, 1454 01:56:31,159 --> 01:56:35,720 well, we use science. Science is true, science is good. Therefore 1455 01:56:35,800 --> 01:56:40,439 the new religion of the future, what the religion of tomorrow is a new 1456 01:56:40,920 --> 01:56:45,840 mythic interpretation of science and technology, and where that can take us in regards 1457 01:56:45,920 --> 01:56:51,520 to the advancing us towards a utopian concept like heaven. And that's really what 1458 01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:55,800 his project is. What is heaven? What is the endpoint of all this 1459 01:56:55,880 --> 01:57:00,560 stuff? He believes that being, or what he calls the fundamental religion ground, 1460 01:57:00,079 --> 01:57:03,960 is pulling all this stuff from the future. What does that eschaton look 1461 01:57:04,079 --> 01:57:08,279 like? He never really describes. He uses a lot of religious language, 1462 01:57:09,399 --> 01:57:13,000 but I would say this is essentially his project. He utilizes his four E 1463 01:57:13,279 --> 01:57:16,600 cognitive science, a lot of Heidegger, a lot of Hegel, a lot 1464 01:57:16,680 --> 01:57:21,239 of phenomenology. Neo Platonism is essential to his work. It allows him to 1465 01:57:21,279 --> 01:57:28,039 incorporate all his Eastern mysticism and also then bring in a sort of oh well, 1466 01:57:28,119 --> 01:57:30,359 I'm part of the history of the philosophical tradition in the West, and 1467 01:57:30,479 --> 01:57:34,800 this is where all these thinkers are and where all these ideas are. And 1468 01:57:34,920 --> 01:57:43,720 so therefore, by confronting the nilism of the contemporary period, then we can 1469 01:57:44,279 --> 01:57:46,920 enter into a new state of being, of the no thingness, and somehow 1470 01:57:47,079 --> 01:57:51,800 this is equal to enlightenment. And so his project then is to enlighten people 1471 01:57:51,880 --> 01:57:57,560 around the world, create this new religion of tomorrow, and use science as 1472 01:57:57,600 --> 01:58:00,840 the new mythic narrative of the future. That's why he's in favor of all 1473 01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:06,119 these silicon sages. Excellent. Yeah, I didn't even I didn't before you 1474 01:58:06,239 --> 01:58:11,680 had talked about it tonight. I wasn't aware of the whole transhumanist uh sort 1475 01:58:11,720 --> 01:58:15,720 of side of that. It's a huge part of his project. What exactly 1476 01:58:15,920 --> 01:58:17,760 is a silicon sage is that just like an A, a super AI. 1477 01:58:17,960 --> 01:58:23,039 What does the guy mean like walking around with let's like neural link in their 1478 01:58:23,079 --> 01:58:28,600 head or something. Well, did you ever see the uh the AI Jesus 1479 01:58:28,680 --> 01:58:32,399 on Twitch? Mm hmmm, so Twitch. I think it's still up. 1480 01:58:32,920 --> 01:58:40,439 These programmers out of Germany, I believe made a Jesus where it's a continual 1481 01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:44,520 Twitch live stream and he's just an AI sitting there and you can type in 1482 01:58:44,720 --> 01:58:48,680 questions and then he he's like has the data bank of like GPT four or 1483 01:58:48,760 --> 01:58:53,520 something, and then he can pull up and reference all these questions and this 1484 01:58:53,680 --> 01:58:57,920 is Jesus. And then the way it expresses itself is like this very pious 1485 01:58:58,079 --> 01:59:02,479 and soft, nurturing way. Okay, and so he then got into the 1486 01:59:02,600 --> 01:59:10,880 conversation. Yeah, exactly exactly. So he then got into this conversation that 1487 01:59:10,960 --> 01:59:15,399 he believed and this is the two recent books he just uh published with another 1488 01:59:15,479 --> 01:59:19,640 gentleman that are called Mentoring the Machine, where he believes that what we can 1489 01:59:19,720 --> 01:59:25,840 do is basically program artificial intelligence. It's going to become synient in his worldview 1490 01:59:25,960 --> 01:59:30,520 most likely, and we can program it to be virtuous and these will be 1491 01:59:30,640 --> 01:59:35,840 the teachers of tomorrow, both scientifically but also spiritually. And so that's why 1492 01:59:35,880 --> 01:59:41,079 he calls them saying, we're going to get wisdom in the future from AI 1493 01:59:41,279 --> 01:59:45,159 rather be a physical bot or some computer program. That this is the way 1494 01:59:45,199 --> 01:59:47,039 that we're going. This is essential to us again, the religion of tomorrow. 1495 01:59:47,479 --> 01:59:50,239 This is your priest. This is who you're going to engage with you 1496 01:59:50,640 --> 01:59:55,319 Have you seen Have you seen THHX one one, three eight, the classic 1497 01:59:55,399 --> 01:59:59,840 dystopian movie, No, I have not. Okay, this is George Lucas's 1498 02:00:00,399 --> 02:00:03,960 like it's his first film, right, It's not a perfect film. It's 1499 02:00:04,039 --> 02:00:08,680 kind of slow, and it is kind of just a mix of Brave New 1500 02:00:08,720 --> 02:00:14,399 World in nineteen eighty four. However, there's this really amazingly perceptive scene in 1501 02:00:14,520 --> 02:00:18,920 the movie where Robert Devall is the protagonist and he's sort of the Winston who's 1502 02:00:18,960 --> 02:00:24,079 trying to wake up to the dystopia matrix that he's in, right, and 1503 02:00:24,199 --> 02:00:29,199 he goes to an AI confessional. Yeah, I'm serious, it's a famous 1504 02:00:29,239 --> 02:00:31,880 scene. I'll send it to you right after this, and he sits in 1505 02:00:31,920 --> 02:00:36,720 the AI confessional and he confesses that he's doubting the system that they live in, 1506 02:00:38,840 --> 02:00:43,279 and you know, basically the AI Jesus talks to him there and it's 1507 02:00:43,479 --> 02:00:46,199 basically ups his meds that he's supposed to take, right, and then it 1508 02:00:46,319 --> 02:00:50,319 has this weird blessing it's really ominous dystopian blessing at the end. This is 1509 02:00:50,359 --> 02:00:54,880 the seventies movie, right, so this is like late seventies THHX one, 1510 02:00:54,920 --> 02:00:59,239 one, three, eight, And the AI goes Blessings of the State, 1511 02:01:00,039 --> 02:01:03,960 blessings of the masses. So it's not blessings of the Fathers and Holy Spirit. 1512 02:01:04,039 --> 02:01:09,079 It's Blessings of the State, blessings of the masses. And it's just 1513 02:01:09,279 --> 02:01:14,359 it's just crazy because what you just described to me is literally what's in that 1514 02:01:14,560 --> 02:01:17,680 movie. So wow, I need to watch that because that sounds like something 1515 02:01:17,760 --> 02:01:20,079 right up my alley. I haven't. I haven't seen that. It's a 1516 02:01:20,159 --> 02:01:24,199 very receptive film, but that's really what his project is. That's why The 1517 02:01:24,239 --> 02:01:30,159 Silicon Sages is nothing to scoff at, because what he believes he's doing working 1518 02:01:30,239 --> 02:01:33,119 with the people. He says, well, I don't have a financial investment 1519 02:01:33,319 --> 02:01:38,920 into AI artificial intelligence, but here's what I want to do. And so 1520 02:01:39,279 --> 02:01:48,359 then his Vervaki Foundation and his larger project is oriented around programming virtue into AI 1521 02:01:48,720 --> 02:01:54,039 so that we can then learn from and be guided by the Silicon Sages because 1522 02:01:54,039 --> 02:01:57,359 they can process information and no way more than you or I could. And 1523 02:01:57,439 --> 02:02:00,640 they can read all the ancient books, all the spiritual texts, everything that's 1524 02:02:00,680 --> 02:02:03,039 been written. They can they can know all that. So then you should 1525 02:02:03,039 --> 02:02:06,319 ask them about what you should do. You should ask them about your life. 1526 02:02:06,399 --> 02:02:10,439 You should ask them about, you know, how you should treat your 1527 02:02:10,479 --> 02:02:14,439 wife. I guess all this stuff. So I think that's a huge part 1528 02:02:14,479 --> 02:02:18,560 of his project that is really merging in with the WEF you know, the 1529 02:02:18,560 --> 02:02:23,000 Bilderberg group, whoever you want to call them, the globalist elites, where 1530 02:02:24,199 --> 02:02:28,359 he's a very appealing to people, young men going through this meaning crisis going 1531 02:02:28,399 --> 02:02:31,600 through these alternative media is looking at Peterson or even Andrew Tate or whoever it 1532 02:02:31,680 --> 02:02:39,319 is, the manosphere, but he's basically ultimately leading you into the thing that 1533 02:02:39,399 --> 02:02:43,520 we're always warning people about, which is the globalist, the global the new 1534 02:02:43,640 --> 02:02:46,920 global religion. Yeah, and that's what So it just it's like, that's 1535 02:02:46,960 --> 02:02:51,159 what it is. Yeah, that's excellent, all right, super Chatz DC 1536 02:02:51,239 --> 02:02:56,159 would working five dollars Jay. Do you think it's a coincidence that dispensational quote 1537 02:02:56,199 --> 02:03:00,319 theology gained popularity through the Schofield Study Bible around the same time as Balfour No. 1538 02:03:00,479 --> 02:03:04,880 In fact, I've talked about that on podcasts for many years, probably 1539 02:03:04,920 --> 02:03:11,319 going back about seven or eight years. But you have to keep in mind 1540 02:03:11,359 --> 02:03:14,760 too that a lot of people don't know that Schofield Study Bible was printed and 1541 02:03:14,840 --> 02:03:19,119 it's still printed by Oxford University, So Oxford Press. Yeah, Oxford Press 1542 02:03:19,279 --> 02:03:25,000 is who printed and pushed that in not just England but throughout the West. 1543 02:03:25,640 --> 02:03:28,039 And that was a top down project. I believe that was part of the 1544 02:03:28,199 --> 02:03:35,359 British imperial project to influence America into dispensationalism because of course Lord Ralph Child and 1545 02:03:36,039 --> 02:03:40,840 so forth, we're behind the Balfour declaration. Thank you for all that you 1546 02:03:40,960 --> 02:03:45,039 and DPHD. Do you have any plans to do a dispensationalist stream. I've 1547 02:03:45,079 --> 02:03:48,800 done two streams in the past critiquing dispensationalism. If you type in jade, 1548 02:03:48,800 --> 02:03:53,159 I are com a dispensationalism, they should come up. One of them was 1549 02:03:53,239 --> 02:03:59,720 a critique of Catholic and dispensational ideas, and then another one was just about 1550 02:03:59,760 --> 02:04:02,960 this stational stuff on a long Q and A. But I could do another 1551 02:04:03,039 --> 02:04:06,199 one. Help me understand three dollars? Well, Tina says that the one 1552 02:04:06,359 --> 02:04:13,199 is pure relation and understood is as this relation is love, which has ontological 1553 02:04:13,279 --> 02:04:16,159 existence and binds the intellect to it. If God the Father's love, could 1554 02:04:16,199 --> 02:04:21,039 we say that his love for the other persons has its own ontology. Well, 1555 02:04:21,119 --> 02:04:27,800 first of all, we do not accept the Plutonian Phillyoquay argument. There. 1556 02:04:27,880 --> 02:04:31,159 In fact, when Augustin in on the Trinity makes some of his Phillioquay 1557 02:04:31,239 --> 02:04:35,760 arguments, some of their actually some of them are actually copied from I think 1558 02:04:35,800 --> 02:04:40,319 A needed four or five, and we don't believe that. So we do 1559 02:04:40,479 --> 02:04:45,600 not believe that God is pure relation. First of all, for us, 1560 02:04:45,840 --> 02:04:49,399 the One is not an abstraction. It is the Father. Go back to 1561 02:04:49,560 --> 02:04:54,520 last night's or whenever it was the night before with doctor bo Branson, the 1562 02:04:54,640 --> 02:05:00,720 totality that whole discourse was about the monarchia of the Father. So orthodox theology 1563 02:05:00,800 --> 02:05:04,279 is not like perennialism, and it's not like Platonism. It doesn't start with 1564 02:05:05,119 --> 02:05:09,479 the One or the monad as an essence, as an abstraction, or as 1565 02:05:09,720 --> 02:05:13,199 pure nothingness or up. It rown begins with the person of the Father. 1566 02:05:14,680 --> 02:05:18,039 Secondly, love is an energy common to all three hypostases. It is not 1567 02:05:18,399 --> 02:05:24,760 the Father and the Son, as the logos is not. We wouldn't equate 1568 02:05:24,880 --> 02:05:28,600 that to intellects. In other words, the logos is a second person in 1569 02:05:28,640 --> 02:05:34,720 the Godhead. He manifests the reasoning of the Father. But mind or reasoning 1570 02:05:34,920 --> 02:05:38,479 is common to all three persons, just like Will. It's common to all 1571 02:05:38,520 --> 02:05:42,279 three persons. So God the Father is not an attribute. So long story 1572 02:05:42,319 --> 02:05:46,680 short, you can't collapse person and energy or attribute in trinitarian theology. Doctor 1573 02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:54,720 Chilling five dollars message to Davy bone cancer, how how dare you? I 1574 02:05:54,760 --> 02:05:57,079 don't know what that means, but thank you for the super chat. Bone 1575 02:05:57,119 --> 02:06:00,800 Man five thirty eight hundred dollars. Wow, thank you, infest. I 1576 02:06:00,840 --> 02:06:04,720 will be sharing these with Kotel, So thank you for the superchest. Thank 1577 02:06:04,760 --> 02:06:09,039 you for what you do. I think the shaman could be a very valuable 1578 02:06:09,199 --> 02:06:14,920 archetype. Well in a lot of senses. I mean, you could use 1579 02:06:15,039 --> 02:06:19,479 the shaman in the history of religion, you could use the shaman in literature. 1580 02:06:20,239 --> 02:06:25,239 And the way Verveiki described the shaman is kind of he says, the 1581 02:06:25,319 --> 02:06:28,479 prophet is the same thing, right, So an Old Testament prophet to him 1582 02:06:28,600 --> 02:06:31,079 is equivalent to a shaman. So he's just kind of taking like the religious 1583 02:06:31,159 --> 02:06:36,680 preacher figure and kind of encapsulating them all as the shaman. Looking at the 1584 02:06:36,760 --> 02:06:43,439 Hebrew word shah, it usually references sin or evil. Well, I mean, 1585 02:06:43,720 --> 02:06:47,319 I'm not a Hebrew scholar, but just because the phonetics of shah in 1586 02:06:47,439 --> 02:06:53,680 Hebrew is that it doesn't necessitate that a shaman, which I don't know, 1587 02:06:53,920 --> 02:06:58,800 I don't know what religion, what etymology. I believe it's Tiberian the word 1588 02:06:59,079 --> 02:07:05,199 the word for a shah, shaman comes from anglicization of like their they believed 1589 02:07:05,239 --> 02:07:09,680 that the shaman was like the man of the sun, so it had to 1590 02:07:09,720 --> 02:07:13,319 do with like Sunman. So it's not the Hebrew usage of the term. 1591 02:07:13,520 --> 02:07:20,960 No, it came from Siberia, Siberian Amanita, Mascaria tribes. Bone Man 1592 02:07:21,079 --> 02:07:26,920 says, the emphasis on the practice of aeviation seems similar to the original temptation 1593 02:07:27,279 --> 02:07:30,119 in the Garden of the fruit. I think you could make that argument. 1594 02:07:30,159 --> 02:07:34,920 What would you say to a parallel between say, the sacrament of you know, 1595 02:07:36,359 --> 02:07:42,000 well, actually Huxley calls them sacraments, like he thinks that LSD and 1596 02:07:42,039 --> 02:07:45,960 streams are sacraments, and could this be an analog to the fruit in the 1597 02:07:45,000 --> 02:07:49,520 garden. Well, Terence McKinnon was explicit that that's what he believed, and 1598 02:07:49,600 --> 02:07:53,960 that's why he promoted gnosticism, is that he's like, well, you see, 1599 02:07:53,960 --> 02:07:57,239 the Gnostics got it right because they venerate Eve, which again much of 1600 02:07:57,319 --> 02:08:01,479 this world view venerates goddesses and stuff like that, Eve to a to a 1601 02:08:01,560 --> 02:08:09,199 status of as a liberator that they take basically this idea that they would call 1602 02:08:09,279 --> 02:08:13,000 the Judeo Christian God, this is their words. I wouldn't frame it that 1603 02:08:13,079 --> 02:08:18,399 way, but that he is a dominator, he's egoic, he's egotistical. 1604 02:08:18,479 --> 02:08:22,760 And so what Eve did and the promise of the serpent to become godlike by 1605 02:08:22,800 --> 02:08:26,279 eating something. This is liberatory and this is what then we all need to 1606 02:08:26,319 --> 02:08:30,399 do, and this is what psychedelics do. So many people in the psychedelic 1607 02:08:30,439 --> 02:08:35,439 community would argue that, oh yeah, the myth of Adam and Eve eating 1608 02:08:35,640 --> 02:08:39,000 and Eve eating from the tree of knowledge, that's exactly what psychedelics are. 1609 02:08:39,439 --> 02:08:48,760 And that's where when you get into like I said, these these frescoes in 1610 02:08:48,880 --> 02:08:52,079 southern Europe, again there's the eminem a scurity mushroom. You can find these 1611 02:08:52,159 --> 02:08:56,000 depictions like right here, this is in plain Caralt, France. This is 1612 02:08:56,079 --> 02:09:01,560 a hospital, large church. Knights of the hospital ours they built this and 1613 02:09:01,680 --> 02:09:05,680 what was to say, Well, clearly it's a mushroom, and even Adam 1614 02:09:05,720 --> 02:09:09,479 are covering themselves with mushroom caps. Now I've done. This is what I've 1615 02:09:09,479 --> 02:09:18,520 written about is that I believe much of the the cathars and the hospital ares 1616 02:09:20,199 --> 02:09:24,640 these knights that went into the Holy Land during the Crusades. They encountered these 1617 02:09:24,680 --> 02:09:28,800 gnostic rituals and they brought them back. So when we look at these churches 1618 02:09:28,880 --> 02:09:33,960 that are all again contextually within the same historical period, they are reinterpreting what 1619 02:09:35,079 --> 02:09:39,359 the Eucharist is, how you commune with God, and what the original fall 1620 02:09:39,520 --> 02:09:43,800 is about from a Gnostic perspective, and they are psychedelics into that. So 1621 02:09:43,960 --> 02:09:50,520 I think I think it's it's very plausible from a Gnostic framework. Our framework 1622 02:09:50,640 --> 02:09:54,720 is Orthodox. The is the absolute inverse of that. Yeah, exactly. 1623 02:09:54,960 --> 02:10:01,960 I forgot that the McKenna says that because I've read that. Andy Huxley says 1624 02:10:01,960 --> 02:10:05,000 it as well. In fact, Huxley believed that at the end of Doors 1625 02:10:05,039 --> 02:10:09,319 of Perception. He says that he hopes that the religion that would really be 1626 02:10:09,479 --> 02:10:15,840 the future American religion would be the Native American Church because he thinks that they 1627 02:10:15,880 --> 02:10:20,159 would actually have peotia as a sacrament and that everybody could be initiated if they 1628 02:10:20,239 --> 02:10:24,479 joined, you know, the Native American Church eventually. I'll remind you guys 1629 02:10:24,520 --> 02:10:28,399 too that we have a show sponsor, and the show sponsor is Chalk dot 1630 02:10:28,479 --> 02:10:33,560 Com. As you see there above me, Chalk has this excellent product out. 1631 02:10:35,359 --> 02:10:37,279 It's about the ship. It hasn't actually shipped yet, but it is 1632 02:10:37,520 --> 02:10:43,119 the Chalk pre workout and it's Chad Mode. As you can see, we 1633 02:10:43,199 --> 02:10:48,680 got the Chad meme man there. So get a hold of the Chad Mode 1634 02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:52,199 by heading over to Chalk dot com and using the promo code J fifty to 1635 02:10:52,279 --> 02:10:56,439 get fifty percent off. Of course, that's not the only product over there. 1636 02:10:56,520 --> 02:11:01,399 We also have all the other great products like Male Vitality through the Mail 1637 02:11:01,479 --> 02:11:05,479 Vitality Stack, which you can get right here. Notice that it is not 1638 02:11:05,760 --> 02:11:07,479 that much money. You actually just use a promo code J fifty and you 1639 02:11:07,520 --> 02:11:11,239 get fifty percent off that Male Vitality Stack that includes the Daily Blend, It 1640 02:11:11,319 --> 02:11:16,880 includes a talkcat Elite one hundred which is proven, the Boost a Saucer one, 1641 02:11:16,880 --> 02:11:18,680 and it includes Oshawagonda. So head on over to Chalk dot com use 1642 02:11:18,720 --> 02:11:22,199 a promo co J fifty do you get fifty percent off as well as the 1643 02:11:22,239 --> 02:11:26,159 promo code J five to three life. That's J five three L I f 1644 02:11:26,239 --> 02:11:31,640 E to get fifty three percent off all recurring subscriptions over at Chalk dot com. 1645 02:11:31,720 --> 02:11:33,920 And I know that once you get Chalk you're gonna want it coming on 1646 02:11:35,079 --> 02:11:39,319 the regular, So just use that JAY fifty three Life Bmax nineteen sixty six 1647 02:11:39,399 --> 02:11:43,800 awesome video. Thank you so much, BMX Tyler five dollars. Can you 1648 02:11:43,880 --> 02:11:50,319 point me to or do a slow boy explanation of Nick Land's concept of hyperstition, 1649 02:11:50,479 --> 02:11:58,439 zeno demons and cybernetics. What in tarnation? So I'll let Cotel answer 1650 02:11:58,479 --> 02:12:01,199 if he has anything on Nick And I don't know about Nick Land. I've 1651 02:12:01,279 --> 02:12:07,520 only listened to our buddies over at Syop Cinema do some discussions about Nick Land. 1652 02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:15,520 And I think our buddy over the British British podcaster guy that we we've 1653 02:12:15,600 --> 02:12:20,840 done podcasts with. I just went blank. He just had Nick Land on, 1654 02:12:22,239 --> 02:12:26,199 so that would probably be a good He's gonna hope he doesn't. I 1655 02:12:26,239 --> 02:12:31,119 hope it don't. Don't be pissed off. I just went blank on our 1656 02:12:31,199 --> 02:12:37,640 buddy, our buddies podcast, Scott uh Manyon, Scott Manyon's podcast. He 1657 02:12:37,840 --> 02:12:43,119 just had Nick Land on, So go check out Scott Manyon. Let me 1658 02:12:43,199 --> 02:12:48,399 put that link in the chat. Yeah, that's pulled it up. I'll 1659 02:12:48,479 --> 02:12:50,920 check it out. I know of Nick Land, but I've never listened to 1660 02:12:52,039 --> 02:12:56,239 him talk or anything. I really don't know much of his ideas other than 1661 02:12:56,359 --> 02:13:01,720 he's a promoter of transhumanism, isn't I'm not actually sure. I started this 1662 02:13:01,840 --> 02:13:05,119 podcast. I'm about five minutes into it and I had to go, so 1663 02:13:05,239 --> 02:13:07,840 I didn't actually finish it. So for those in the chat, here is 1664 02:13:09,000 --> 02:13:13,000 the Nick Land interview with our buddy Scott Manion, so you guys can check 1665 02:13:13,039 --> 02:13:16,159 that out over there. Let's see double o Honeybee ten dollars. Thank you 1666 02:13:16,239 --> 02:13:20,319 so much, Honeybee, longtime regular super chatter. We appreciate that as well 1667 02:13:20,359 --> 02:13:24,960 as our good buddy bone Man five thirty eight twenty bucks. I think that 1668 02:13:24,119 --> 02:13:30,399 they get us to presuppose anthropology so that we our we are our minds, 1669 02:13:31,239 --> 02:13:35,760 and then we mind them while they mind us out of our genuine person So 1670 02:13:35,800 --> 02:13:43,319 he's basically saying that we get reduced to just being mines and they mine usne 1671 02:13:43,840 --> 02:13:48,560 out of a having genuine person. I think that's absolutely correct. Yeah, 1672 02:13:48,840 --> 02:13:52,960 agreed, Agreed, because the ultimately spiritual war and giving up the I always 1673 02:13:52,000 --> 02:13:56,760 talked about giving up the image of God, your true personhood. That's the 1674 02:13:56,840 --> 02:14:00,239 name of the game. Whether it be you know, cutting off your testicles, 1675 02:14:00,239 --> 02:14:07,000 are blending with a machine, it's the same thing exactly snapping like you 1676 02:14:07,199 --> 02:14:11,199 fabo one dollar, what chain are you rocking? Jay? What's your watch? 1677 02:14:11,760 --> 02:14:15,680 So this is just a pukashell necklace that we bought as a joke because 1678 02:14:15,680 --> 02:14:18,920 I'm in Florida and I thought that it's I felt like the nineties because they 1679 02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:22,520 used to have a pukashell necklace in the nineties, and people are like, 1680 02:14:22,640 --> 02:14:28,079 whatn't you wear the cross because the necklace that I had, I had an 1681 02:14:28,119 --> 02:14:31,199 issue with it, and I have not gotten a new gold necklace yet, 1682 02:14:31,720 --> 02:14:37,199 and so I don't have a chain that fits my cross. So the watch 1683 02:14:37,479 --> 02:14:41,359 is Mavado that I got a couple of years ago. So Temple hagro ten 1684 02:14:41,439 --> 02:14:48,479 dollars perennialist. The perennialism in Peterson is revealed in his interview with Joe Rogan, 1685 02:14:48,520 --> 02:14:54,239 where the discuss the use of psilocybin, mushrooms and Kundalini yoga to achieve 1686 02:14:54,319 --> 02:14:58,479 attachment to a spiritual world. You should give it a listen. I've not 1687 02:14:58,520 --> 02:15:01,680 actually heard this, have you. I know people are into that well, 1688 02:15:01,720 --> 02:15:03,199 even Connor Murphy. That was part of the when he first got into the 1689 02:15:03,239 --> 02:15:07,159 psychedelics. He would get these new age girls. They would take drugs and 1690 02:15:07,199 --> 02:15:11,399 then they would sit with their let's just say, with their legs open, 1691 02:15:11,600 --> 02:15:16,600 very very close towards each other, holding each other, and then stereog eat 1692 02:15:16,640 --> 02:15:20,560 each other's eyes, and they believe this was part of the rising of the 1693 02:15:20,640 --> 02:15:24,359 Kundalini energy. They would practice Kundelini yoga, all types of stuff. So, 1694 02:15:24,319 --> 02:15:28,840 uh, it's fairly common. I know Aubrey Marcus is somebody who's interested 1695 02:15:28,920 --> 02:15:33,720 in this type of stuff. So getting you know, getting an altered states 1696 02:15:33,760 --> 02:15:39,079 and doing Kundelini yoga activating your chakra systems very common in the New Age. 1697 02:15:39,399 --> 02:15:43,079 Uh. And I would point people towards probably Aubrey Marcus as the biggest promoter 1698 02:15:43,199 --> 02:15:46,159 of this stuff. Yeah, I just temple hat girl. I know Jordan 1699 02:15:46,159 --> 02:15:50,479 Peterson has been on Joe Rogan many men, many times. So if you 1700 02:15:50,520 --> 02:15:54,079 would just you know, dm me that one or something, because I would 1701 02:15:54,119 --> 02:16:01,279 be interested in specifically the discussion of the perennialist elements in that talk. Five 1702 02:16:01,520 --> 02:16:05,439 sends five dollars. What is your explanation to an army that says, how 1703 02:16:05,479 --> 02:16:09,880 come God doesn't just destroy Satan there would be no suffering. A lot of 1704 02:16:09,920 --> 02:16:13,880 people seem to think that God and Satan are equals. Well, God doesn't 1705 02:16:13,920 --> 02:16:18,159 tell us all of the reasons why he permits things to occur. If you 1706 02:16:18,239 --> 02:16:22,880 read the Book of Job it's really geared towards you as an ancient wisdom text 1707 02:16:24,560 --> 02:16:30,479 giving you the level of explanation that humans can have. So basically, the 1708 02:16:30,520 --> 02:16:33,639 point of the Book of Job is that because we're finite, we can't really 1709 02:16:33,719 --> 02:16:39,399 even conceive of all the potentialities and possibilities of what God could and couldn't allow 1710 02:16:39,559 --> 02:16:45,200 and why and how He's allowed evil. So basically the answer is that in 1711 02:16:45,360 --> 02:16:48,520 our finite state we can't grasp it. So I think that, to me 1712 02:16:48,959 --> 02:16:56,760 is a good enough explanation, because if the expectation is that any worldview is 1713 02:16:56,920 --> 02:17:01,319 going to give an exhaustive explanation for good and evil, no worldview can do 1714 02:17:01,440 --> 02:17:05,239 that, So that's actually an impossible expectation. But the best that we can 1715 02:17:05,319 --> 02:17:09,280 hope for is that within our world view, we do have a basis for 1716 02:17:09,520 --> 02:17:13,680 good and evil, and that's good enough. And it's not there's no God's 1717 02:17:13,719 --> 02:17:16,879 not bound by any rule or law that he has to tell us as creatures 1718 02:17:18,879 --> 02:17:22,040 why ultimately he permits it. It's good enough that we know that there is 1719 02:17:22,120 --> 02:17:24,479 good and there is evil. So most world religions can't even give you an 1720 02:17:24,479 --> 02:17:28,959 account for good and evil, So I'd say we're one up already, and 1721 02:17:30,120 --> 02:17:33,479 no, Satan is not equal to God. He is a created angelic being, 1722 02:17:33,639 --> 02:17:39,319 so it's not at all equal. Big big seven foot, five dollars. 1723 02:17:41,319 --> 02:17:43,040 All right, I'm not going to read that one. That was a 1724 02:17:43,079 --> 02:17:46,840 little much, but thank you for that big seven foot. I appreciate it. 1725 02:17:46,959 --> 02:17:50,840 Storm the Cat ten dollars, cool video, and I'm not trying to 1726 02:17:50,840 --> 02:17:52,959 be reade to you a big seven foot It's just I don't want to get 1727 02:17:52,040 --> 02:17:56,600 controversial and get anybody mad about those comments. But thank you for that. 1728 02:17:56,719 --> 02:18:03,360 I appreciate it. And Coteldph good buddy. Remind everybody about your channel, 1729 02:18:03,440 --> 02:18:07,360 where they can find you and what you got coming up. Yeah, you 1730 02:18:07,440 --> 02:18:11,159 guys can find me over at Church of the Eternal Logos or search David Patrick 1731 02:18:11,200 --> 02:18:15,959 Harry and now I've turned an old YouTube channel to a clips channel. You 1732 02:18:16,000 --> 02:18:20,639 can find me on Instagram at dp H A R R Y. And I 1733 02:18:20,799 --> 02:18:24,840 got a handful of streams coming up. I'll be doing an introduction into Zorastrianism 1734 02:18:26,399 --> 02:18:31,120 and comparing that with Orthodoxy, and yeah, handful of streams coming up. 1735 02:18:31,159 --> 02:18:35,200 We do open panels, so if anybody wants to hop on one day and 1736 02:18:35,360 --> 02:18:39,520 give your opinion on whatever topic. We just did one on stopping the American 1737 02:18:39,600 --> 02:18:46,120 war machine. Anybody is always welcome on whether you agree or not, as 1738 02:18:46,200 --> 02:18:48,680 long as it's a cordial and respectful conversation, so you can find me there. 1739 02:18:50,760 --> 02:18:52,120 Thanks again for having me on, Jay, I appreciate it absolutely. 1740 02:18:52,159 --> 02:18:58,319 I want to remind everybuddy too that we also have our sister podcast over here 1741 02:18:58,639 --> 02:19:05,559 at Rockfin which is Grand Theft World. Our good buddy Richard Grove is over 1742 02:19:05,600 --> 02:19:09,680 there killing it as you can see here in this example, they did a 1743 02:19:11,600 --> 02:19:18,079 seven and a half hour breakdown of all of the recent drama revolving around the 1744 02:19:18,360 --> 02:19:22,399 history of things going on in the Middle East. And if you head on 1745 02:19:22,440 --> 02:19:26,799 over to Rockfinn or Okafin, you can subscribe to Grand Theft World. Right 1746 02:19:26,879 --> 02:19:31,719 there at our buddies podcast, Richard Grove has a amazing resource. It goes 1747 02:19:31,799 --> 02:19:35,040 way back years of podcasting, all the way back into Tragy and Hope. 1748 02:19:35,559 --> 02:19:39,600 The breakdowns that he did very similar to the breakdowns that I've done over on 1749 02:19:39,680 --> 02:19:41,479 my channel. So there's Richard's link right there. Be sure and subscribe to 1750 02:19:43,000 --> 02:19:46,520 Grand Theft World, and also remember to head on over to the link that 1751 02:19:46,559 --> 02:19:50,440 we have right here where Richard is still offering his new course over at University 1752 02:19:50,479 --> 02:19:58,639 of Reason on becoming sufficient, self sufficient as an entrepreneur as a business owner. 1753 02:19:58,479 --> 02:20:01,920 How to go about that? What are the steps that you want to 1754 02:20:01,120 --> 02:20:05,920 kind of engage in to move into being independent and being your own boss? 1755 02:20:07,520 --> 02:20:09,840 And I really appreciate that Richard is one of the few people out there that 1756 02:20:11,000 --> 02:20:18,639 is still thinking about equipping young guys and women too in terms of becoming apart 1757 02:20:18,719 --> 02:20:22,239 from the system, basically having your own thing going. If you want to 1758 02:20:22,319 --> 02:20:24,399 be, for example, a homesteader, right, a lot of people in 1759 02:20:24,440 --> 02:20:28,479 our circles want to have a homestead that kind of a thing. Maybe you 1760 02:20:28,559 --> 02:20:31,520 want to run a business from your homestead. Richard can help you figure out 1761 02:20:31,600 --> 02:20:37,280 how to go about that process because Richard, of course himself is a successful 1762 02:20:37,559 --> 02:20:41,879 personal business owner. Storm of the Cat sins, excuse me, Ac, 1763 02:20:41,239 --> 02:20:46,079 since some more We got a couple more super chats here, Ac says, 1764 02:20:46,159 --> 02:20:50,879 and thank you. Ac of course is our sponsor for tonight's dream, he 1765 02:20:50,959 --> 02:20:54,079 says. Many are pushing for Vervaki to meet up with David Bentley hart Ough 1766 02:20:54,680 --> 02:21:05,319 Ikes, who has met with Ian Gilchrist Vervek's works. Verbake works with an 1767 02:21:05,479 --> 02:21:11,920 esoteric so called orthodox Peter Limberg who runs STOA. These acumenists are already using 1768 02:21:11,040 --> 02:21:18,200 these in DC Shindler terms like the left hemisphere. I don't know the STOA 1769 02:21:18,280 --> 02:21:20,879 guy. I think they invited me on there, and I didn't know about 1770 02:21:20,879 --> 02:21:24,159 it. I just got busy. I wasn't trying to ignore them, but 1771 02:21:24,239 --> 02:21:30,200 I didn't. I weren't aware that that he was an orthodox esotericist. But 1772 02:21:30,760 --> 02:21:33,159 yeah, I think David Bentley hardcourse is very bad news. He's now openly 1773 02:21:33,280 --> 02:21:37,680 basically you know, he had a blog post last year where he basically said 1774 02:21:37,719 --> 02:21:41,520 that he doesn't mind being just called a perennialist now, so he's kind of 1775 02:21:41,639 --> 02:21:48,719 he's kind of okay with no longer really identifying as traditionally actually orthodized, and 1776 02:21:48,799 --> 02:21:52,680 everybody knows that, you know. He basically adopts a universalist attitude, collapsing 1777 02:21:52,799 --> 02:21:58,000 nature into person. And because he does that, he then thinks that everybody 1778 02:21:58,079 --> 02:22:03,639 will be because everybody's resurrect that everybody's safe, all right, So thank you 1779 02:22:03,760 --> 02:22:05,000 guys. Uh, that's the lit