WEBVTT

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Hey everyone, and welcome to Parenting
Beyond the Headlines. We're so glad that

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you're back listening with us. I'm
Sarah Cody on the East Coast. I'm

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with my friend Amy Alamar all the
way over on the West coast. Amy,

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it's good to see you on zoom. Yes, good to see you

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as well. And I hope you're
staying warm, you know, Sarah,

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I was reading the newspaper and I
dove into one of the modern love columns

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about a couple who had been married
twenty five years and split up during the

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pandemic through using Airbnb Andmatch dot com. And it just struck me because my

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husband and I are getting close to
twenty five years and you know, I

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just kind of it's odd to read
something like that. And so I wanted

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to talk about sort of marriages and
relationships in general during the pandemic. And

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I'm really excited that we have of
Ruth and Joe Freeman, both psychotherapists with

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their own private practice who see individuals
and married couples. And also Ruth is

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the founder of Piece of Home Parenting
dot com, where she shares a lot

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of her wisdom with classes online.
So this is something that you know isn't

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unique, but maybe we don't talk
about as much. Hey, welcome guys,

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and I have to say, this
is the first time we've had a

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married couple as guests on the show, right Amy. Yeah, it's very

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nice. Perfect, it's the perfect
topic. There you go. So I

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would say, conversationally in terms of
like zooms with my girlfriends and talking about

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marriage and the pandemic, some people
have grown closer and some people are at

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each other's throats. Do you think
are you seeing that very different dynamic depending

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on the couple. Well, I
always talk first, but I was thinking

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I was trying to let Joe talk
first today. Marriage issue is right here

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at the start of the podcast.
Kid. So as a result of the

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pandemic with is giving me more generous
permission to talk first. Very nice.

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Well, you know, it's interesting
because I was just reviewing some of the

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studies that have been done, and
in fact, the studies have yielded contradictory

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conclusions which reflect what you just said, that some couples that have grown closer

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and some couples that has been increased
conflict. So I you know, I

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think that you know the couples that
I have worked, whether they they are

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they're having challenges or because they're working
with me to start with, and so

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um in terms of I think a
couple that for instance, is has um

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two or three teenagers in the family, and one of these teenagers is very

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challenging in terms of the behavior and
some mental health issues that teenager, because

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of the of the lack of pure
contact and isolation, has probably gotten worse.

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And therefore the stress and the stress
and the family has gotten worse.

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And therefore the parents being able to
cope with an already challenging tchanger has also

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increased their stress and affected their relationship. So I think it depends on lots

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on what's going on and the family
structure. That's a really good point.

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It's not just about the marriage,
It's not just about that relationship. It's

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about everything that's going on and how
you individually handle that and handle that together

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at peace. In our parenting,
many of us have concluded that adolescents are

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probably the population that might be suffering
the most from this pandemic in terms of

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ages and stages. They've had the
biggest losses, and parents are frightened about

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their teenagers. Some teenagers aren't coming
out of the room. You know,

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they're not leaving their room. They're
just online in their room and there.

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Yeah, and I think that that
and if parents don't already, you know,

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Joe and I were saying before,
we were talking about this before,

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and we were saying that if parents
had pretty good coping skills to begin with,

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their relationships have actually gotten better because
they had tools to deal with this,

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and they spent more time together.
There were less distractions in a lot

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of ways. It's a funny moment
in time. But those parents that had

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some cracks in the relationship, those
cracks have gotten bigger. It's interesting,

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Ruth, because I've noticed. And
just the last podcast we did, actually

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we talked about how girlfriends really are
special relationship for women, right, and

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so the nuclear family can't replace the
girlfriend. And what I'm hearing from you,

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you know, at a lescence,
they are all about developing pure relationships,

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and we as a nuclear family can't
be cool teens. So so we're

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you know, they're suffering the same
um and and because they're in this critical

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developmental period that can affect every single
person in the family. Yeah, right,

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right, And and and you know
you said a couple of things that

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are really relevant to couples too,
because you know, some of my favorite

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UM teachers about couples talk about how
we the couple has evolved so that we

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over time, if we look at
how couples have functioned over time, save

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in the United States, we have
evolved to a place where we want so

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much from our partner. We want
a best friend, we want someone to

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have fun with, we want someone
to pour our heart out to, we

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want a sexual partner, we want
you know, all these things in this

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one person, and that concentration of
focus has made relationships much harder. So

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you know, I can remember when
I was growing up, even my mom

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would never expect to turn to my
dad for emotional support. It wouldn't gruss

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her mind and that and that there
was a reason for that. But you

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know, she would talk to her
sister, she would talk to this one.

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But but I consider Joe like my
number one, you know, emotional

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support person, and that for us
has worked out. But I think that

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expecting you know, that person to
be your running partner and your gym partner

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has put tremendous stress and and therapists
are saying that those couples that have other

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connections do better, and even the
friends is very important, but you know

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someone else that you do you meet
at the gym to do your workout with,

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and someone else that you talk to
about the kids possibly and not that

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you do nothing with your partner,
but there being a better um spread of

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your dependence. And I think that
the pandemic just like narrow stuff and made

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it more difficult in a lot of
cases. I have a like that before,

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and I think that's a really interesting
way to think about it, and

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that you could almost like in it
to the way we think. Like when

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we were kids, we went off
on our bikes and our parents weren't worried

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about every step we took. Everything
is sort of heightened now. Yeah,

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yeah, So what you know,
if if there's um stress in the house,

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if they're stressed with that married couple, no matter what the reason,

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where do you suggest they begin,
Because this is a tough time to be

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stuck here in inside at home more
if you're not getting along well, you

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know, before before we got together, I was looking at a couple stuff

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thinking about this because I was excited
to talk about it. And one therapist

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that I really liked talks about boundaries, routines and rituals, and and you

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can see that Joe and I are
in two different offices right now, and

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that's and that it's like when I
look at that, that I think that's

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a good sign of a couple,
because like I thought, if we were

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in the same space and we had
this year the space and I would be

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like annoyed, you know. And
like so I was, I was thinking

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about, I love the way Joe's
taking notes while we're talking. It's so

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great. I was thinking about,
um, like where am I going to

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be comfortable and Joe, I should
go to my own office, right and

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like that's a boundary. You know, we're gonna do better if we're in

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separate spaces around this and boundaries around
time. You know, this is work

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time. You know. I've heard
people say to his parents and peace at

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home. They're saying, I'm not
working from home. I'm living where I

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work, and and they're working all
the time. Their brains aren't turning off

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from working. And so those boundaries
of Okay, work is done, and

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now I'm going out into the living
room and it's going to be different.

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I'm not gonna take you know,
I'm not going to bring that, and

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so emotional boundaries, physical boundaries,
you know, the boundaries are very important

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to be able to think about.
And routine teens and rituals routines are like,

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you know, doing the same thing
every day the same way. And

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we talk to parents about this a
lot during the pandemic because those fell apart

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and it made life much harder.
And one of the things that routines does

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is it comes your brain. If
you know that when you get up in

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the morning, the first thing is
you go in the bathroom, and then

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you go downstairs, and then you
have breakfast and then you get dressed.

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If you know that, you don't
have to think about it every day.

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But if you have a choice every
day what am I going to do first?

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Or am I just going to read
in bed or am I going to

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get up? Your brain is more
stressed. You have to make choices all

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the time. And so routines with
couples calms everything down. We know who's

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going to do what when, And
rituals are routines with meaning. So like

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you know, when Joe and I
sit down to dinner most nights, we're

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going to say one thing we appreciated
about the day, we each We always

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did this with the kids, and
then it kind of went away, and

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during the pandemic, I noticed that
we gradually brought it back. And it

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touches on something essential to well being
during the pandemic, which is gratitude.

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And I think a lot of people
are practicing gratitude because we're noticing more things.

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We're you know, we're aware of
what we've lost, and so routines

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with a ritual something that adds some
meaning to it. I think all those

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things are helpful to couples, and
a lot of it has gone out the

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door with the pandemic. Yeah,
do you think carving out alone time even

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if the kids are in the basement
watching a movie or you know, I

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have teen boys, even if they're
upstairs in the room where they want to

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be. Frankly, um is carving
out like a date night in the living

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room if you can't go to the
restaurant down the Starah, I'm gonna like

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out us. But we did a
date night in our car. We watched

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naps in the car and we did
take out. That's fun. It's like

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getting back to the teen years.
Amy. Yeah, something you know you

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have to hide from the kids,
you know the house. Yeah, it

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was just to leave the house and
do something. But we didn't want to

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eat at a restaurant, and you
know it was the where to go?

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You go, like drive and look
at lover's leap or whatever like that now

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like the old timey views. Right, Well that's cute. But is finding

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you know, maybe not in your
car, but is finding time just the

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two of you, no matter how
you do it a good thing? Joel,

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do you have any thoughts about that? Are you're asking me mat if

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you have any thoughts about the just
having the time just the two of you?

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Oh? All I could think about
that's whether that's whether Indian pourhouse was

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intimate in the back seat, But
that's my brain too. Is taking a

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turn, missus Alamar in the pandemic
piggy piggyback on what I think you were

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saying, It's not there's a way
here that in the face of so much

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loss for many of us, perhaps
the teenagers are experiencing with the greatest,

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but it's a loss for all of
us hopefully. Uh. That one paradox

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here is that that you end up
appreciating your partner more in terms of what

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they can bring to you. I
noticed, you know, maybe partly because

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of my age, but also partly
because of dealing with this very unique time.

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You know that my anxiety is greater, So my dependence on Ruth as

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a source of comfort is enhanced at
this point. There's a way that if

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I if she if I don't know
where she is, I have a little

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bit more anxiety. And and so
it's like that the touchstone of comfort is

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so important now at least for me, and it's it's enhanced, but hopefully

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my appreciation, my gratitude for that
touchstone is also enhanced. And hopefully I

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expressed that to Ruth. And so
that's why one reason I think that paradoxically

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this time can can increase the quality
of the relationship that we don't take it

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for granted as much. And Joe
is actually illustrating something right now that increases

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intimacy, which is and it's particularly
challenging from men who have been brought up

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in a traditional way, which is
to demonstrate vulnerability. And I think that,

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you know, Brandy Brown talks a
lot about this being vulnerable and being

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authentic, showing on the outside how
you feel on the inside, and she

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associates that that was her first study
on intimacy was people who could show how

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they were feeling in a real way. And Joe talking about this makes me

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feel closer to him. But I
think a lot of men traditionally feel like

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they're not supposed to show their fears
during these times. And I think those

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couples that have learned how to do
that, and women do this too.

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Women they focus on keeping everybody happy
and they don't actually talk about what's going

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on for them. And I think
that couples that can can be honest about

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their terror in a lot of cases, I mean there were times during this

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pandemic that I would feel terrified.
I mean even if you've got a cold,

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you could feel terrified. And I
think processing that not only is helpful

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for the individual, but it makes
the couple feel closer if they can do

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that. If you're trying to do
just do things normally, let's do it

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the way we've always done it.
I have to look brave, I have

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to keep it together. I'm the
parent, I have to look okay.

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I think you get exhausted, stressed
out and want to run away. But

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if if you can just have some
of those scary feelings, sad feelings.

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I mean, it was I just
had to keep one example. I didn't

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we didn't see the kids for Christmas, and you know, this was the

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first time in thirty five years that
I wasn't with my and I wasn't with

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my grandchildren everything. And Christmas Eve, I was so sad. I was

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so I was just oh, and
I bought all these presents. This is

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how we killed the Post Office.
I bought a million presents and sent a

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million presents to it as part of
my grief. And then Christmas morning,

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I woke up and I lit some
candles in our room and I was like,

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this is the first Christmas morning I
have to get up. And then

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I was like, this is like
kind of cool, this is and I

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we just we had this delightful Christmas
morning. It was beautiful and just hanging

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out and you know, I took
a picture of our room because it looks

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so beautiful and and it was remarkable
to see my feelings go from utter devastation,

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heartbroken, and then the next morning
feeling so loved and cozy and just

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like, Okay, we got through. We got through the worst possible thing.

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I'm gonna make it. You know, but that's vulnerability, and that's

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also agility with your feelings. There's
a book about this, I can't remember

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her name, but it's being willing
to be one minute sad, devastated and

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the next morning the sun is coming
up. And I think that has to

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be built into couples relationships, where
you have permission to express it and you

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can tolerate those changes in your partner. That's a good point. And the

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holidays were tough and confusing this year, weren't they. I was like,

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we were alone too, and my
dad has passed away recently, and so

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my mother was alone, and like, just it all felt bad and we

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had a good Christmas Eve, and
then I had a rough Christmas Day.

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So it's just it's the same.
It's this is a tough time where we're

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tapping into vulnerability and boundaries and all
these buzzwords that we talked about anyway,

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in such a heightened different way.
Yeah. Yeah, I mean this is

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this is like running the marathon,
and it isn't short term. It's long

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term, and and it's how our
feelings are evolving over time. You know,

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one minute you might feel totally close
to your partner, the next minute

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you think you're going to pull your
hair out, and then you say,

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Okay, this is just this minute, this is just this minute. You

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know. Well, to that point, we were just talking about together and

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us and making time for date nights. Whether it's Amy's way or you know,

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a different way that's just gonna live
on. Amy, You're not You're

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not gonna. I'm glad to be
the fun one, you know, Amy

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Alamar's car. But you know,
as we touch on that that we need

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to make time for each other when
everybody's in the house and the stress is

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going on, there needs to be
some way to find a lone time too,

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and that's that feeds relationships in a
different way too, right, Yeah,

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absolutely. I mean I Joe and
you know, Josie's clients and I

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do piece at home parenting and icy
clients, and I often think at the

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end of the day we come together
like we don't We're not that big of

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a house, but we don't actually
see each other that much in the day,

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and then we come together at night
and we have something to tell each

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other, you know, And I
think you kind of have to have that

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separate times. Our circle are older
people and lots of our friends are taking

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classes online. They're doing all these
things apart and then coming together and sharing

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it. And I think, you
know, and I want to say one

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thing that I always tell couples in
parenting classes. And I can't find the

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original research, but I read this
research or article that says when partners perceive

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they don't have to be married just
you know, cohabitating, partners perceive that

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the domestic responsibilities are shared fairly,
not equally fairly, they tend to have

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more sex. And I think that
right now. You know, families with

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young children, like my daughter has
a four year old and a sixteen month

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old, and they went through four
months of both having big jobs with big

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teams to supervise and these young children
with no nanny, no childcare, and

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they had to constantly be negotiating and
and you know, coming up with that,

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and I think that pressure is tremendous
on them to feel like it's fair.

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I mean, what's fair when you're
both kind of at war. You

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know, you're on the front,
but it's it's a factor to be negotiating,

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to be talking about this with each
other, yeah, rather than just

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shouldering it and being annoyed. It
seems like if if you even just know

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that one thing you can talk about
sounds and what feels fair, because taking

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into account what what what one person
hates to do, you know, it's

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not ours, it's not tasks,
it's it's perception and feeling supported and feeling

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acknowledged and feeling fair. I think
that's a huge factor in closeness altogether.

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Yeah, you know, as we
begin to think about winding down, we've

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thrown a lot of good ideas out
there for folks. If if somebody's really

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listening and wants one takeaway, you
know, what do you suggest if they're

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not feeling like things are right,
if they're feeling like they've gotten on each

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other's nerves, if they're feeling like
they're not making these important decisions well together,

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Just what's one little takeaway you can
leave us with both of you?

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Well, you know, A hat
a very interesting session this week with a

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couple, and I think this is
a particular challenge for men. The man

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was talking about the external let's talking
about the external environment in the home and

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was upset that something had not been
done and I finally was able to have

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him talk about what his internal process
was. So I think that in this

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time, we might well be focused. We may have more of a need

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to have things organized externally in our
environment, and we have less tolerance for

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maybe that things not to be organized
are messy, especially if we have a

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strong kind of internal critic that's running
the show that says things have to be

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together. But when I was able
to direct him to talk about his internal

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state, he actually was able to
start to say, oh, you know,

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I drive myself without mercy. I
don't give myself any breaks. My

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wife is the only one that can
that can cue me to say, look,

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we don't have to deal with that
today tonight. Let's let it go

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to tomorrow when we're arrested. But
I can't do that for myself. And

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when he was able to describe his
internal state and how much pressure he puts

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on himself, and to recognize that
his wife is actually very generous in terms

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of saying, take it easy,
you don't have to, we can put

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things off, he could he could
take her guidance. The wife who was

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very angry and defensive at his criticism, you know, she opened her heart

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to him. And I think a
great deal of empathy, which I think

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almost every woman's going to do or
every partner's going to do if their partner

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can talk about that internal state.
Unfortunately, it's really hard for men to

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do that oftentimes either because they're not
in touch with it. And so that

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was I think, if we can
go there, if that's the one bit

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of advice I would want to give, especially to men, if if,

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if, if you can do that, it would be I think, create

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much more emotional intimacies. That's a
great point. And it's almost like if

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you can open up and lean on
your partner's strengths. Yes, do that

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too, Yeah, Ruth, what's
your takeaway? Well, Actually it was

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funny because I had a very similar
thought. I was thinking, if we

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can notice our internal critics, if
we can notice what we're telling ourselves,

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because that often comes out of our
mouth to others. If we notice that

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and sometimes even through journal, that
helps. Um. But I was going

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to think specifically. I was just
working with a couple of the other day

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and if I wass think about women, If if women could first of all,

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notice what we're telling ourselves before we
get angry at our partners, and

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then framing our communication when we're unhappy
with our partner's behavior, framing it in

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the form of a request versus a
criticism. So you know, like like

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with with Joe, I'll often say, Okay, this is the third time

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I'm asking you. That's not so
helpful. What is helpful is can you

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tell me by what time you're going
to get this done? And I think

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the trick of just kind of making
it into a request so that you can

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feel better as opposed to it's so
easy to fall into that criticism, which

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is the death of relationships. It's
it's it's really hard. And that's true

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with teenagers too. That's great advice
all around because that that can be the

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nagging can be. And there's more
of that now too, because we can

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have fights about these silly things that
because we're all here and needing to take

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care of the home and take out
the trash and you didn't do it,

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and you know, like that can
escalate sometimes and it's just silly. Well,

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you guys were delightful, really just
an inspiration and fun and you know,

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always enjoy talking to you and thank
you so much for the wisdom.

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And I am eternally grateful that I
learned about Amy's car date. And I'm

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never gonna let it go And that's
a little nugget in my pocket to always

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bring up. Now. I love
it. Amy, You're not your car

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date, right right? If only
you knew? Right well, we are

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just so glad to have you with
us too, listener, thank you for

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joining us. Please keep in touch
with us. You can find us at

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00:24:47.079 --> 00:24:51.480
parenting Beyond the Headlines dot com and
we are on social media, Sarah Cody

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00:24:51.559 --> 00:24:55.920
Media and Amy alamar So please reach
out, let us know what you want

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00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:59.039
to know about and talk about.
And we hope this finds you safe and

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well. I'm good luck everyone.
I mean, we're all in this together

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and we're all feeling these pressures and
we will all get through it. We

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will talk to you again. Take
care,