1 00:00:01,080 --> 00:00:07,200 You're listening to the Mind over Murder podcast. My name is Bill Thomas. 2 00:00:07,719 --> 00:00:12,039 I'm a writer, consulting, producer, and now podcaster. I am now 3 00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:16,000 trying to use my experience as the brother of a murder victim to help other 4 00:00:16,079 --> 00:00:20,239 victims of violent crime. I'm working on a book on the unsolved Colonial Parkway 5 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:24,640 murders, and I'm the co administrator of the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook group together 6 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:28,440 with Kristin Dilley. My name is Kristin Dilley. I'm a writer, a 7 00:00:28,519 --> 00:00:32,439 researcher, a teacher, and a victim's advocate, as well as the social 8 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,759 media manager and co administrator for the Colonial Parkway Murders Facebook page with my partner 9 00:00:37,799 --> 00:00:48,200 in crime, Bill Thomas. Welcome to Mind of a Murder. I'm Kristin 10 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,799 Dilley and I'm Bill Thomas. We're joined today by other Ron Peterson, who 11 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:57,240 is here to talk to us about his fantastic book, Chasing the Squirrel. 12 00:00:58,000 --> 00:01:00,439 Ron. Thank you for joining us. Thank you, Kristin, and thanks 13 00:01:00,439 --> 00:01:03,600 Bill. It's great to be with you both. It's funny that this feels 14 00:01:03,640 --> 00:01:07,439 like Old Home Week now. It sure does. You guys have been very 15 00:01:07,519 --> 00:01:11,079 kind over the years to have me on your show now several times, and 16 00:01:11,159 --> 00:01:14,879 we definitely want to make sure that we spend a little bit of time right 17 00:01:14,879 --> 00:01:18,000 at the end of this having you catch us up on all the developments in 18 00:01:18,040 --> 00:01:22,400 the Gina renee hawcase and the documentary and all of the great work that you're 19 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,280 doing on your end as well. Thank you. I'll be happy to do 20 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,599 that. So let's go ahead and dive into this by talking about the case 21 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,000 at the heart of your book, Chasing the Squirrel, and that is the 22 00:01:32,040 --> 00:01:36,680 case of Wally Thrasher. It's gonna be a little hard to summarize, but 23 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,079 give it a go. Can you summarize Wally Thrasher and his exploits for our 24 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,120 listeners? I sure will. Wally Thrasher his full name was Wallace Samuel Thrasher. 25 00:01:46,519 --> 00:01:51,280 He was a notorious drug smuggler, more specifically a drug smuggling pilot who 26 00:01:51,359 --> 00:01:55,439 lived in southwest Virginia. If he's alive today, he would be eighty three 27 00:01:55,519 --> 00:01:59,280 years old. And we'll talk more about that about that big if it's the 28 00:01:59,359 --> 00:02:02,040 caveat, we'll dig into that a little bit. Wally story. He was 29 00:02:02,079 --> 00:02:07,920 born in nineteen forty. He grew up in southwest Virginia and Kulaski, A 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:09,840 good old boy growing up. Laski is a place near and dear to me. 31 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:14,599 My first book, Under the Trustle was about a murder case that took 32 00:02:14,599 --> 00:02:17,319 place there. We'll touch on that in a minute. Wally was the guy 33 00:02:17,360 --> 00:02:22,520 I graduate high school in nineteen fifty eight. He was somebody and probably all 34 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:24,759 of this newson one like him. In high school. He was this good 35 00:02:24,759 --> 00:02:30,159 look and charismatic guy that everything just came easy for him. Really athletic, 36 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:35,719 really popular with the girls and guys, the kind of guy all the women 37 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:38,319 wanted to be with him, and all the guys wanted to be like him. 38 00:02:38,599 --> 00:02:42,319 Right. And he was also I guess what we call nowadays an adrenaline 39 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:45,800 junkie, before that term was popular, and that he would. He was 40 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:47,960 a guy always doing the dangerous things. He had no fear of failure, 41 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,319 whether it was swimming across a half mile long lake in the winter, climbing 42 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:57,080 a pine tree when he was a kid, scaling a cliff, or so 43 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:00,319 forth. I we'll mention his appearance a few times, but he's worth it. 44 00:03:00,479 --> 00:03:05,120 If any of the listeners wanted to do an Internet search of Wally Thrasher, 45 00:03:05,479 --> 00:03:07,680 several pictures of them will come up. And I say that because certainly 46 00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:12,919 he had these kind of movie star looks that were a big part of his 47 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,280 whole persona and even his smuggling career. Graduate from high school, didn't know 48 00:03:16,319 --> 00:03:20,599 what he wanted to do, spend about three years in the Navy, enrolled 49 00:03:20,599 --> 00:03:24,479 at Virginia Tech and only lasted a semester, and then sometime in his mid 50 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,439 twenties, just on a whim, he took a flying lesson. He learned 51 00:03:29,439 --> 00:03:32,800 that aviation was really his thing. Just like some people are musicians who can 52 00:03:32,840 --> 00:03:38,120 play by ear, I'm told in my research, I learned that some pilots 53 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:40,400 are just natural born pilots and they're just good at it. They pick up 54 00:03:40,439 --> 00:03:46,159 the skills very quickly, and just they're keen aesthetic awareness and so forth. 55 00:03:46,159 --> 00:03:50,319 They're just really good pilots. And now that was Wally Thrasher. He went 56 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,479 through several jobs. He did some modeling for a clothing company out of New 57 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:58,599 York. He sold men's clothing, and then bit by the aviation bug, 58 00:03:58,639 --> 00:04:01,599 he wanted to get a job in LA where there were more jobs in aviation, 59 00:04:02,199 --> 00:04:06,759 specifically in commercial aviation, so he moved down to the Pompano Beach Air 60 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:11,840 which was by a cool hip surftown on the Pacific coast of Florida. Took 61 00:04:11,879 --> 00:04:16,079 several jobs involved flying. One was as a crop duster chemicals on the orange 62 00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:19,600 groves that were a little bit inland, and really honed his flying skills due 63 00:04:19,639 --> 00:04:25,959 and that they're flying low and avoiding telephone poles and trees and so forth. 64 00:04:26,279 --> 00:04:30,959 He worked as a pilot taking up skydivers for dives, worked as a transport 65 00:04:31,000 --> 00:04:35,959 company transporting goods to and from the Caribbean, and then also ran an air 66 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:41,399 cargo service where he'd fly wealthy tourists to and from the Caribbean and somewhere along 67 00:04:41,399 --> 00:04:45,399 the line. In the early nineteen seventies, Wally Thrasher, who I mentioned 68 00:04:45,439 --> 00:04:48,439 before, he was an adrenaline junkie who just enjoyed the thrills of flying. 69 00:04:48,959 --> 00:04:54,959 Someone presented him the opportunity to make some money flying back marijuana from the Caribbean, 70 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,319 and he was all in. Most indications are he did it just for 71 00:04:58,360 --> 00:05:00,560 the thrill, but then the money when he made that, he learned he 72 00:05:00,639 --> 00:05:04,759 made seventy thousand dollars for that particular flight. He was hooked great deal of 73 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:09,720 the information in me writing the book comes from his wife, whose name was 74 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,839 Olga, and we'll talk more about her. She was originally from Portugal, 75 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:17,399 beautiful young lady that had the looks certainly to match and keep up with Wally. 76 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:23,040 So a lot of the information about his career comes from two days of 77 00:05:23,079 --> 00:05:27,800 federal grand jury testimony that she eventually presented in the eighties. As she told 78 00:05:27,879 --> 00:05:30,519 it in detail chapter and verse, about a lot of his exploits, came 79 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:35,480 close to death several times, crash landed a few times, but was arrested 80 00:05:35,519 --> 00:05:41,199 twice. Once he bribed his way out in the Bahamas and another time spent 81 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,879 over a year in a Mexican prison, and the book details that. So 82 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:48,000 things were going good for Wally in the early eighties and his wife. They 83 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:51,319 had two young children at that time, and he started to think about getting 84 00:05:51,319 --> 00:05:55,120 out of the business. He'd been doing it for about ten years, which 85 00:05:55,199 --> 00:05:59,560 is tremendous longevity for a drug smuggling pilot. So they decided they were going 86 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,600 to move to Virginia, and in Bland County, Virginia, he bought this 87 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:08,120 huge hundred acre property built a beautiful home there. Instead of getting out of 88 00:06:08,120 --> 00:06:11,920 the business, he more or less moved his operation to Virginia. Up to 89 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:15,480 this point, he'd been the guy. There were other people who set up 90 00:06:15,519 --> 00:06:17,959 the deals and all Wally would do. He was just like the taxi driver 91 00:06:18,079 --> 00:06:20,680 of the plane. He would fly the drugs from point A to point B 92 00:06:20,879 --> 00:06:24,720 and then get away from the plane and let other people unload it, which 93 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:27,639 was one of the reasons why he never got caught. But for doing that, 94 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,240 he would typically make anywhere between seventy five thousand to one hundred fifty thousand 95 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:38,040 dollars per load. His comfort zone was about fifteen hundred pound loads of marijuana. 96 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,160 He generally avoided other drugs a cocaine. This was in the time the 97 00:06:42,199 --> 00:06:45,439 movie's Scarface was out. It was not too much of a stretch of what 98 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,600 was going on in Miami and other places in the cocaine trade. He was 99 00:06:48,639 --> 00:06:54,040 more comfortent in marijuana. It was a less violent group of players that he 100 00:06:54,079 --> 00:06:58,720 was involved with. So his operation moved to Virginia. The Virginia State Police 101 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:02,279 opened a case file on him in nineteen eighty and several three years went by 102 00:07:02,319 --> 00:07:06,480 and they pretty much knew what he was doing because he had this flashy lifestyle. 103 00:07:06,959 --> 00:07:11,480 He paid cash for his house, paid cash for all his fleet of 104 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,160 vehicles that he and his wife had, but they could never catch him with 105 00:07:14,279 --> 00:07:16,680 the drugs or the cast just because he was so good at doing what he 106 00:07:16,759 --> 00:07:21,040 did. And again the book details that his nickname was the squirrel, hence 107 00:07:21,079 --> 00:07:26,000 the name Chasing the Squirrel. That was an old high school football nickname because 108 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:29,519 he was really elusive on the football field. Really suited him well, and 109 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,480 as a drug smuggler as well. But he would what he would do. 110 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,439 He'd fly these planeloads of marijuana, typically smaller planes, you know, sometime 111 00:07:36,480 --> 00:07:41,319 he had a Beechcraft Bonanza that he flew in and he'd fly the drugs from 112 00:07:41,399 --> 00:07:45,399 points south, the countries like Colombia. Will talk more about Belize is a 113 00:07:45,439 --> 00:07:47,560 big part of the story. And he'd fly them directly to Virginia. So 114 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:51,040 there was a lot of drug interdiction in Florida going on that time, and 115 00:07:51,079 --> 00:07:57,759 he'd fly right past that out to little airports in southwest Virginia where typically the 116 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:01,240 distributors from northern cities from New York, Work or Philadelphia or Detroit would meet 117 00:08:01,319 --> 00:08:05,279 him and then they would they would take the drugs from there, so it 118 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:09,439 would Things really went well for him for about ten years, but then in 119 00:08:09,759 --> 00:08:13,199 October of nineteen eighty four, he was scheduled to pick up a load of 120 00:08:13,199 --> 00:08:16,720 marijuana from Belize, had to attend a funeral of a relative. He was 121 00:08:16,759 --> 00:08:20,360 actually a Paul bearer in an Ans funeral. So he led an associate of 122 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:26,040 his fly his plane, his Beachcraft Bonanza and the smuggle ended tragically, and 123 00:08:26,160 --> 00:08:28,839 that on the return trip, the pilot who was in an associate of his 124 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:33,879 name, Nelson King, crashed Wally's airplane into Fancy Gap Mountain Coaches out in 125 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:39,039 southwest Virginia. And writing the book, I went through the FA and NTSB 126 00:08:39,600 --> 00:08:45,279 crash report on It was just a spectacular crash and miraculously Nelson King got away 127 00:08:45,320 --> 00:08:48,919 from the plane. Passenger copilot was killed. Nelson King managed to walk away 128 00:08:50,320 --> 00:08:54,320 and then the train was airplane was traced back to Wally Thrasher and at that 129 00:08:54,399 --> 00:08:58,879 point the Virginia State Police had the evidence they needed to move forward and indict 130 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:03,759 to Wally Thrasher conspiracy to import drugs. Then at that point he disappeared. 131 00:09:03,759 --> 00:09:07,720 He left behind and his two kids will talk more about one of them, 132 00:09:07,759 --> 00:09:11,679 Montana, his son, who was six years old at the time, at 133 00:09:11,759 --> 00:09:16,360 least in the United States, there's never been any credible sightings of Wally Thrasher 134 00:09:16,639 --> 00:09:22,399 since his wife was also She was not directly involved in what Wally did in 135 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,399 Wally's activities, but she was privy to a lot of it, so she 136 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:30,320 was charged as being involved in the conspiracy. The federal government came after her 137 00:09:30,799 --> 00:09:35,559 and she was facing lengthy prison senates. She ended up cooperating with the authorities, 138 00:09:35,600 --> 00:09:39,080 became a federal witness and provided them with a lot of information not only 139 00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:43,480 about her husband, Wally, but about the other people, a lot of 140 00:09:43,519 --> 00:09:46,279 international conspirators. And we can talk more about how that ended up, but 141 00:09:46,399 --> 00:09:50,399 she was the witness who brought down was actually responsible for a huge drug bust 142 00:09:50,519 --> 00:09:54,159 as a result of all that is actually an international bust that was one of 143 00:09:54,159 --> 00:09:58,559 the largest ever in the Mid Atlantic States. Then, the central event of 144 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:03,720 the took place on November fourth, nineteen eighty four, And what happened then 145 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:09,519 was Wally Thrasher allegedly was involved in a fatal airplane crash in Belize. He 146 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,399 had gone down to Belize to pick up a load of marijuana, and on 147 00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:18,840 takeoff, a plane suspected of being overloaded. According to the crash report, 148 00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,759 crashed in the jungle. There there was auxiliary fuel tanks on the plane that 149 00:10:22,039 --> 00:10:26,000 caught on fire. Of course, the marijuana burned very hot as well, 150 00:10:26,039 --> 00:10:30,960 and fire was so intense, according to the crash report, that it actually 151 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,240 melted the substructure of the plane. Wally Thrasher's body was burnt to ashes. 152 00:10:35,759 --> 00:10:39,679 A few weeks after that, one of wales associates shows up at Olga's house 153 00:10:39,759 --> 00:10:43,759 with his wedding band, and according to the story, the band was the 154 00:10:43,799 --> 00:10:46,120 wedding band was found in the wreckage. He was given back, and so 155 00:10:46,159 --> 00:10:50,120 the federal authorities pretty much knew that if the fire was hot enough to burn 156 00:10:50,159 --> 00:10:54,600 a body to ashes and melt an airplane, clearly it would have melted a 157 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:58,960 wedding band as well. One of several indications that the crash was bogus, 158 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,440 it was a staged plane crash, and that they came to believe this is 159 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:09,519 a da as well as US marshals then spent the better part of the next 160 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:13,799 twenty years actually looking for Wally Thrasher. They believed he was maybe in a 161 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:20,159 tropical land somewhere in South America. Or the Caribbean or even Portugal was mentioned. 162 00:11:20,519 --> 00:11:22,440 But then I would want to say also with respect to his family, 163 00:11:22,720 --> 00:11:26,320 his wife, Olga, who I worked closely with writing the book. She 164 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:31,879 family believed that he died either in the crash or shortly thereafter and did not 165 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:33,840 live. There's probably no one who knows more about it than her, and 166 00:11:33,879 --> 00:11:37,840 that's her belief. Anyway. There's there are several different theories on what happened 167 00:11:37,879 --> 00:11:41,559 to Wally, but certainly the romantic and they would find it interesting to believe 168 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:46,519 that he could still be alive at age eighty three. Yeah, and I 169 00:11:46,519 --> 00:11:50,240 guess even just starting with the most basic fact, you could have knocked me 170 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:52,159 over with a feather. And this is probably just my now you fatag going 171 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:58,919 that there is a drug smuggling scene in Virginia. I had no idea. 172 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,080 And again this is clearly just not even tay on my part. But I 173 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:05,799 was like, wait, there's drug smuggling in southwest Virginia. But that was 174 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:11,080 very interesting to me. How much did you learn about drugs smuggling for this 175 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:15,279 book run? It must have been quite a lot. It was really interesting. 176 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:18,000 Yes, indeed, and now you're right here in Virginia I think you 177 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,279 went to Virginia Tech. I went to Radford, I went to Hollands, 178 00:12:22,360 --> 00:12:28,600 and you can certainly remember examples of drugs being present and say marijuana for example, 179 00:12:28,639 --> 00:12:31,519 And I always thought that was the stuff that people brought with them from 180 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:33,960 Hampton Roads or Richmond, and I know that it was coming out of that 181 00:12:35,039 --> 00:12:37,519 area. But it would seem from my research from the book and working with 182 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:41,639 the DA folks who worked on the case in the Virginia State Police like folks, 183 00:12:41,679 --> 00:12:46,240 that a lot of this was big quantities of the drugs that they chose 184 00:12:46,320 --> 00:12:50,200 southwest Virginia because it was it was rural and a little bit sleepier, and 185 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:52,799 people weren't expecting that kind of thing. Yeah, then it was the folks 186 00:12:52,879 --> 00:12:56,480 from the big cities up north who would then come and get it bring it 187 00:12:56,600 --> 00:13:01,759 north in vans I'm not sure how much of those drugs actually found its way 188 00:13:01,799 --> 00:13:05,320 to the college campuses in Virginia, but it is an interesting thing for sure, 189 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:11,240 given the long history of other types of smuggling in Virginia. Certainly closer 190 00:13:11,279 --> 00:13:16,480 to home, Kristen, we've heard a lot about Gloucester County and all of 191 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:24,960 the smuggling of drugs are not mentioned as often as is cigarettes, alcohol and 192 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:31,200 illegal firearms, but drugs probably part of that mix as well. Boats rather 193 00:13:31,240 --> 00:13:33,720 than airplanes. But I think the principles are all the same, don't you 194 00:13:33,759 --> 00:13:39,279 think. I think so. Again, that is my naivete talking because it's 195 00:13:39,000 --> 00:13:43,720 family in Southwest Virginia. Grew up there, spending time with my grandparents, 196 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,360 and as you said, Ron, it's just so sleepy and rural, it 197 00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:52,960 would just never have occurred to me. There are major bits of drugs smuggling 198 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:56,440 going on there that was crazy to me, but it was very interesting to 199 00:13:56,519 --> 00:14:00,840 learn about it, absolutely, and a few of the state police agents who 200 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:07,600 worked on these cases, they made comparisons with Wally Thrasher with the Moonshiners from 201 00:14:07,759 --> 00:14:13,399 Yeah, exactly, Moonshiners that was set in Southwest Virginia still maybe active, 202 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:16,519 but those folks were a manticized a little bit, and there was that same 203 00:14:16,559 --> 00:14:22,360 attitude toward Wally or other marijuana pilots that they were guys almost had this robin 204 00:14:22,399 --> 00:14:26,879 hood image. And Wally Thrasher going to church bake sales and the cake that 205 00:14:26,919 --> 00:14:30,919 would normally sell for forty dollars he'd buy for four hundred dollars. And then 206 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:33,600 give it to an old lady or a single mom. There he began. 207 00:14:33,679 --> 00:14:37,159 It's kind of manufacture this Robin hood image. And I think a lot of 208 00:14:37,159 --> 00:14:39,799 people who could have probably dropped the dime on him. I thought he was 209 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,039 a great guy and he'd adhered himselves to them, So that was another thing 210 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:48,120 I think that contributed to his longevity. How did you hear about Wally? 211 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,919 He came onto your radar somehow, and he's such a great story you all 212 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,440 of your books have been about wonderfully interesting cases and people. How did Wally 213 00:14:56,519 --> 00:15:01,600 ultimately make his way unto your radar? I'm glad you asked that because it 214 00:15:01,639 --> 00:15:03,480 has a special place in my heart. But while I was writing my first 215 00:15:03,519 --> 00:15:07,639 book Under the Trestle, one of the sources for that book who I came 216 00:15:07,679 --> 00:15:11,360 to be real good friends with was Austin Hall, who was a retired Virginia 217 00:15:11,399 --> 00:15:15,960 State trooper and he was the lead investigator in the Gina Hall murder case and 218 00:15:16,039 --> 00:15:20,840 ultimately played a big role in convicting Steve Uperley of that murder. Austin Hall 219 00:15:20,879 --> 00:15:24,240 and I were having lunch one day and near Radford, and he said to 220 00:15:24,279 --> 00:15:26,240 me, hey, he was talking about my first book. He said, 221 00:15:26,399 --> 00:15:28,759 hey, if this book turns out good, you ought to write about Wally 222 00:15:28,840 --> 00:15:33,919 Thrasher. And I said it was Wally Thrasher. And he gave me about 223 00:15:33,919 --> 00:15:37,320 a five minute monologue like I just told you guys, and right away I 224 00:15:37,399 --> 00:15:39,679 was hooked. I said, absolutely, you know that sounds like a great 225 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:43,360 story. I said, can you introduce me to the people on the law 226 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,480 enforcement side. And it turned out one of his old bosses was Dave Dean, 227 00:15:46,759 --> 00:15:50,279 who was a higher up with Virginia State Police who worked on this case. 228 00:15:50,639 --> 00:15:54,919 And then he gave me an introduction to Dave and went from there to 229 00:15:54,200 --> 00:15:58,399 the US Marshall Wayne Pike, who was really instrumental in me writing Chasing the 230 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:03,279 Squirrel, and as well as Don Lincoln, who was a DA agent who 231 00:16:03,440 --> 00:16:06,240 worked on the case. But but oh, it to Austin Hall. He 232 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,080 was the one who told me about it and Sadley Austin Hall passed away. 233 00:16:10,240 --> 00:16:14,279 It's been I guess coming up on two years. But so I'm really grateful 234 00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:17,480 to him for putting this case on my radar. You know, this is 235 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:22,279 a massive case in that it involved multiple law enforcement agencies. You mentioned just 236 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:26,559 a couple of them. What were some of the challenges that you find in 237 00:16:26,919 --> 00:16:30,000 working on a book that involves, Hey, I got to go talk to 238 00:16:30,039 --> 00:16:33,240 the d EA, know the US Marshals, know the FBI, know the 239 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,039 VSP actually all of them all at the same time. How do you juggle 240 00:16:37,039 --> 00:16:40,679 all of that? I guess, first off, it took a while. 241 00:16:40,759 --> 00:16:44,960 Generally my books have taken about a year to write. The fact is that 242 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,159 the three books I've written so far have been cases that took place in the 243 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,559 eighties. Nineteen eighties have kind of kind of become my wheelhouse. And my 244 00:16:51,559 --> 00:16:55,039 wife would say I'm stuck in the eighties in terms of fashion, music and 245 00:16:55,120 --> 00:17:00,200 things like that. But another wrong with the eighties there is. There's a 246 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:03,680 reason for that though. It's folks and law enforcement who work those cases are 247 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:08,160 now retired. They're in their sixties and seventies, so their memories are still 248 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:12,640 good at those cases and they have a little more latitude to speak freely about 249 00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:17,759 them. Yeah, if I were writing about current cases, like for example, 250 00:17:17,799 --> 00:17:21,920 the thing that was on Netflix about the Alec Murdock cases, when it's 251 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:26,680 an active case, folks don't talk and local law enforcement sertling out the state 252 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,880 police and absolutely not I made the mistake of some current cases I wanted to 253 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:34,920 write about of getting in contact with the FBI, and you don't get anywhere 254 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,240 with that. You can submit a Freedom of Information Act of FOIA request, 255 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:42,680 and that's a lot of times getting information about current cases is really challenging because 256 00:17:42,720 --> 00:17:45,920 of that right. Those kind of things don't lend themselves well. And that's 257 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:51,119 why I have found my niche in writing about old cold cases. To answering 258 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:55,279 your question, Kristin found that those folks are just really willing to share their 259 00:17:55,319 --> 00:17:59,000 experiences. Like all of us as we get older, we've got memories that 260 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:02,519 we want. We want to remember them, but we also want other people 261 00:18:02,559 --> 00:18:04,599 to know about them. When the knucklehead like me comes along, it wants 262 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:07,359 to write about it and wants to interview them. In most cases, they're 263 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:11,640 really happy to talk. That's been my experience in dealing with retired law enforcement 264 00:18:11,720 --> 00:18:15,079 people. Run from a practical point of view. I know you have a 265 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:21,319 background as a journalist, Well, these retired law enforcement folks, well they 266 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:26,079 let your record a conversation or do they expect you to take notes? How 267 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:30,119 does it work logistically? Because you talk to a lot of people in putting 268 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,599 your books. I do, and I've done it both ways. I've recorded 269 00:18:33,720 --> 00:18:37,279 some and what I found out, and I know other people have had this 270 00:18:37,319 --> 00:18:41,119 problem too, is when you record someone, a lot of times they hold 271 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,759 back things they don't want to say right. Generally, what I'll do is 272 00:18:44,799 --> 00:18:47,720 I'll tell them, hey, I'm not going to record this, but I'm 273 00:18:47,759 --> 00:18:52,160 going to take notes, and I'll take those notes, and then once I've 274 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:56,039 written it the passages of the book with their information, I'll circle back to 275 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:57,839 them and say, hey, this is what I wrote from our interview. 276 00:18:59,039 --> 00:19:02,079 Tell me if this is accurate. And occasionally they'll make some changes, and 277 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:04,559 a lot of times one word can make a big difference, so they'll do 278 00:19:04,599 --> 00:19:08,240 that, or I'll circle back to him with a second interview. About a 279 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,240 week ago, I talked to a forensics guy, a guy named Al Burns 280 00:19:11,279 --> 00:19:15,400 who was a senior forensics guy in the city of Chesapeake. So we spent 281 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:19,319 about an hour on the phone, and then I will circle back to him 282 00:19:19,759 --> 00:19:22,759 and follow up on some of those questions and then say, hey, now 283 00:19:22,799 --> 00:19:25,880 they send him a written copy this is what you told me. I just 284 00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,000 want to make sure all of this is accurate. So I found for me 285 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,200 that works, that tends to work pretty well. Was there any law enforcement 286 00:19:33,279 --> 00:19:36,880 agency that basically said, nah, sorry, we're not talking about this. 287 00:19:37,799 --> 00:19:41,559 Yeah. That would be the US Marshals, and they're under the Department of 288 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,960 Justice, as is the FP. But I came to be really impressed with 289 00:19:45,039 --> 00:19:48,839 them. The one guy who's a source for this book, Wayne Pike, 290 00:19:49,000 --> 00:19:52,640 who's a retired US marshal, he shared a lot of information with me, 291 00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:56,319 and I actually went to his house one day and then we interviewed him for 292 00:19:56,359 --> 00:20:00,440 a documentary that I'll share a little bit about maybe a bit later. What 293 00:20:00,519 --> 00:20:03,920 he was sharing was pretty much things that are on the public record. There 294 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,240 were things we would ask him and he would say, I'm sorry, but 295 00:20:06,319 --> 00:20:08,640 I can't talk about that. And then what I learned in about my research 296 00:20:08,759 --> 00:20:14,839 about the US Marshals and they are better than anyone in federal law enforcement and 297 00:20:15,039 --> 00:20:19,839 keeping a secret. And their biggest and best secret is the Witness Protection Program 298 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:26,039 WHITSAC. What they administer wit SEC. It's under their jurisdiction. Witness Protection 299 00:20:26,079 --> 00:20:30,279 has been around since nineteen seventy and they have never lost a client. Wow, 300 00:20:30,519 --> 00:20:36,000 Wow, that amazing. Now they've had people, you know, what's 301 00:20:36,039 --> 00:20:38,559 interesting is about seventy percent of people who go into wit SEC, who go 302 00:20:38,599 --> 00:20:44,039 into witness protection, they're criminals. So a lot of them when they're in 303 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:48,960 witness protection, they'll go back to their criminal ways and they get and they'll 304 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:52,279 cut out them said where they are and what they're doing, and some of 305 00:20:52,279 --> 00:20:55,759 them have gotten harmed and actually left witness protection, I think. But for 306 00:20:55,799 --> 00:21:00,200 people to comply and who keep the low profile, they're supposed to have a 307 00:21:00,240 --> 00:21:03,160 one hundred percent success rate. And I'm knocking on a way to think I'm 308 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:06,319 going to jinx them, but I'm amazed at how well they can keep a 309 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:10,599 secret. And there were two of their active folks that I called about the 310 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:14,799 Wally Thrasher case. I'm asking about something from forty years ago, and they 311 00:21:14,799 --> 00:21:17,599 were quick to say, I can't talk about that. I can't can't even 312 00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:22,680 acknowledge that you're listening to Mind over Murder. We'll be right back after this 313 00:21:22,759 --> 00:21:30,960 word from our sponsors. We're back here at Mind over Murder. Just tremendous 314 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:34,960 amount of respect for US marshals and their ability to keep a secret like no 315 00:21:36,039 --> 00:21:40,400 one I've ever known. While we're on the subject, could Wally Thrasher have 316 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:45,440 been put into witness protection. He could. Yet, Yes, indeed, 317 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,119 Bill he could. I tend to not think so because I know that at 318 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:55,240 least the optics appeared that the US marshals were spending a lot of time looking 319 00:21:55,319 --> 00:21:57,319 for him, and Wayne Pike told me that, and again that was on 320 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:00,359 the record. There were wanted post They went out of their way to go 321 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,680 to all these foreign countries and islands in the Caribbean and post wanted posters. 322 00:22:04,960 --> 00:22:08,799 So they spent a lot of time and manpower doing that. And I don't 323 00:22:08,799 --> 00:22:12,319 think they'd have gone to that length if they were also hiding him. Really, 324 00:22:12,319 --> 00:22:15,640 with this case, who knows. That could certainly be. There were 325 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,599 several conspiracy theorists I talked to both when I was writing the book, and 326 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:23,160 since it's come out, it's probably exaggeration to call them conspiracy theorists, And 327 00:22:23,279 --> 00:22:29,559 they think that there's a chance that the federal authorities turned their back and let 328 00:22:29,599 --> 00:22:32,160 Wally get away. Said Hey, as long as long as we don't see 329 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:34,240 you again, we're going to let you go. Wally took pride in not 330 00:22:34,319 --> 00:22:38,480 being a snitch. There's no evidence he ever cooperated or snitched on any of 331 00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:42,559 his associates. But there's always that possibility that he shared some information, he 332 00:22:42,599 --> 00:22:47,039 cooperated, and for doing that, they let him go, let him leave 333 00:22:47,079 --> 00:22:49,359 the country and said, hey, don't come back again. Now, his 334 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:52,000 family and people that know him would say he would have never done that, 335 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,480 He would have never left his family. He had two young kids, not 336 00:22:56,519 --> 00:22:59,680 to mention his wife. Keep in mind, he was facing a lengthy prison 337 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:03,480 sent here in the United States. So yeah, I think that, or 338 00:23:03,519 --> 00:23:07,240 some variation of it, could be one of the many possibilities. I got 339 00:23:07,279 --> 00:23:10,839 this sense at the end of it that the US marshals were doing a certain 340 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:14,720 amount of whaling and gnashing of teeth and going we haven't caught him yet. 341 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,359 It seemed like it must have been a very frustrating thing for them. There 342 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:22,960 are so many different facets and levels to this book. I loved reading it 343 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:26,920 because it's so complex. We've talked a little bit about the law enforcement side 344 00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,200 and the people that you worked with for law enforcement, but let's do talk 345 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:36,039 about Olga Thrasher and Montana Thrasher. What kind of I imagine they were receptive 346 00:23:36,079 --> 00:23:40,359 to doing this book. What kind of working relationship did you have with them 347 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:44,200 as you worked through the process of doing the research and the writing. Yeah, 348 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,839 we had a great relationship. I spent many hours on the phone with 349 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,880 Olga. I would call her to ask just a few questions or to get 350 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,319 clarification on something, and then we would end up talking for two hours. 351 00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:59,640 She was living in Georgia at the time and she is now in her sixties. 352 00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:03,279 And to set the ages here, so when they met and got married, 353 00:24:03,279 --> 00:24:07,480 and I might be a year off both ways here, but Olga was 354 00:24:07,519 --> 00:24:11,559 twenty three and Wally was thirty seven, so there was an age gap there, 355 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,680 I guess. More to your question, they were both very helpful. 356 00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:18,960 They'd had several people contact him over the years wanting to do a movie. 357 00:24:18,079 --> 00:24:22,759 There was someone who wanted to do a not a documentary but an actual movie 358 00:24:22,839 --> 00:24:26,599 production movie. Several people wanted to write a book and even got started and 359 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:30,160 just never quite finished it. So they were really, really receptive to it. 360 00:24:30,279 --> 00:24:32,920 The fact that I'd written another book that took place in that area I 361 00:24:33,079 --> 00:24:36,160 think gave me a little bit of credibility with both of them, but they 362 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:40,279 just wanted me to tell it as accurately as I could. And then Montana, 363 00:24:40,319 --> 00:24:42,400 in particular, I really came to have a lot of respect and admiration 364 00:24:42,519 --> 00:24:47,599 for him. A really cool part of the story is that. And again 365 00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:49,720 just to recap, so, Wally had a son named Montana, who was 366 00:24:49,759 --> 00:24:55,279 six years old when Wally died or disappeared. Just like the bother you can 367 00:24:55,319 --> 00:25:00,799 imagine, Montana became a police officer, only grew interesting. Yes, was 368 00:25:00,839 --> 00:25:03,160 a career police officer. And last I spoke with him, that's been a 369 00:25:03,160 --> 00:25:07,920 few months ago, but he's still still with the police department in suburban or 370 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,880 in Georgia, I should say. So that was really interesting. So he's 371 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,960 used some of his law enforcement skills as he's called around and tried to he's 372 00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:18,000 talked some of his bothers, old associates, old So, yeah, Montana 373 00:25:18,039 --> 00:25:22,000 and Olga had both been really helpful and we continue to correspond on social media. 374 00:25:22,039 --> 00:25:25,759 And then Montana talked to about every few months. So he was six 375 00:25:25,839 --> 00:25:30,480 years old in nineteen eighty four, forty four or maybe. Yeah, he's 376 00:25:30,519 --> 00:25:33,039 a little older than I am yet some mid career. You'd mentioned earlier that 377 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:37,640 Olga believes that while he did in fact die in that plane crash in beliefs, 378 00:25:37,799 --> 00:25:42,400 does Montana believe that as well, or is he actively trying to find 379 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,920 his death. He is, and I think he went through a period of 380 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,680 time where he was actively falling up on leads and talking talking to old people. 381 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:55,079 Not so much anymore. I don't want to speak for him, but 382 00:25:55,119 --> 00:25:57,200 I would say, and again not speaking for him, he's more open to 383 00:25:57,519 --> 00:26:03,680 possibilities of what may may not have happened. He's more open. Olga and 384 00:26:03,759 --> 00:26:07,960 her conversations with me, she was, while she didn't comment directly on the 385 00:26:07,279 --> 00:26:11,759 alleged plane crash, she feels strongly that if he didn't die in that he'd 386 00:26:11,799 --> 00:26:17,240 died shortly thereafter there was he'd had a the analogy he was like if he 387 00:26:17,319 --> 00:26:19,559 was a cat with nine lives, which he was, he had probably used 388 00:26:19,559 --> 00:26:23,720 eight of them up to that point in terms of the crash, as he 389 00:26:23,799 --> 00:26:26,839 had in the arrests, and he'd had eighty three and eighty four. He'd 390 00:26:26,839 --> 00:26:32,000 had a string of just incredibly bad luck. He lost two loads of two 391 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,279 fifteen hundred pound loads of marijuana that he would have had to pay for, 392 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:40,079 did someone fleece him out of some money, and one deal which was something 393 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:42,160 that had just had never happened to him, just because you know, the 394 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,640 gentlemanly way he did business. And there was a guy we can talk about 395 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:51,359 a little bit who toward the end of Wally's smuggling career, he worked closely 396 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:55,400 with a man out of Belize named John angel Zabene, who was one of 397 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:59,119 the largest growers Belize at that time. Had just interesting the country. Belize 398 00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:02,799 the population is only about half the size of Virginia Beach, but at one 399 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,720 they were the fourth largest producer of marijuana in the world. So it was 400 00:27:07,839 --> 00:27:11,240 at least the country and the Jungles were one great big marijuana farm with about 401 00:27:11,519 --> 00:27:17,640 twenty runways that oriented toward the Caribbean Sea where American pilots could land, get 402 00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:21,680 loaded, and fly out. It was just an amazing operation. The drug 403 00:27:21,759 --> 00:27:23,119 ward I guess he could call him that he dealt with. There was John 404 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:27,319 angel Zabine, who still alive today in his seventies. There were some of 405 00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:32,039 the folks I talked to who felt the t because Wally owed him money, 406 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:36,279 he could have potentially done Wally harm. And so that's certainly a chance as 407 00:27:36,319 --> 00:27:38,920 well. Okay, I can see that DV. Cooper and Wally Thresher would 408 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:44,359 probably have gotten along fairly well together. It was that like an obvious parallel 409 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:48,200 that you saw between them as you were doing the research or is that just 410 00:27:48,279 --> 00:27:52,599 a me thing? Yeah, No, I think that's a great comparison both 411 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:56,319 of the cases. They're ones that we don't know exactly what happened, exactly 412 00:27:56,559 --> 00:28:00,000 what happened to the person, And they're both they're both people that are both 413 00:28:00,079 --> 00:28:06,119 criminals, but they've become heroes in modern folklore kind of folks exactly they are, 414 00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:10,480 which is just funny how our society is. But yeah, it's very 415 00:28:10,519 --> 00:28:12,759 interesting, and we both again we think both of them, we imagine them 416 00:28:12,799 --> 00:28:17,920 getting away with millions of dollars. And one thing I didn't say about Wally 417 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:21,200 is that he had money in foreign bank accounts. It was confirmed in the 418 00:28:21,279 --> 00:28:25,960 Cayman Islands, which are in terms of secrecy and security, could pretty much 419 00:28:26,079 --> 00:28:29,680 would be his to go back to if he ever did. Were those funds 420 00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:36,519 ever withdrawn quietly by a retiree from Portugal or something? Yeah, I'd like 421 00:28:36,559 --> 00:28:41,079 to think so, who knows. Run. I think that romantic notion that 422 00:28:41,119 --> 00:28:48,240 we all have it is often attached to smugglers, and I fought the law. 423 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:55,880 Pirates, pirates, smugglers, moonshiners, they all fit that sort of 424 00:28:55,960 --> 00:29:00,839 outlaw character that we often root for. Rare that you're watching an old show 425 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:07,000 with Moonshiner's rum runners zooming down back roads, and who's rooting for the cops 426 00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:10,359 to catch the revenue or the revenue or is to catch the smuggler. You're 427 00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,720 rooting for them to get away, aren't you? Absolutely? And you know 428 00:29:12,799 --> 00:29:18,880 who in pop culture who has really glorified these guys as Jimmy Buffett. Yeah, 429 00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:21,920 I'm not a parrot head, but I am a Jimmy Buffett fan. 430 00:29:22,119 --> 00:29:25,400 He's on my playlist some of the songs. He's probably written a half dozen 431 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,279 songs that are either about smugglers or referred to smugglers. And you know the 432 00:29:29,279 --> 00:29:32,400 song A Pirate and I mentioned in the book, A Pirate looks at forty 433 00:29:32,559 --> 00:29:36,079 Yes, smuggling. I've run my share of grass, made enough money to 434 00:29:36,119 --> 00:29:38,400 buy Miami, but I pisted it away so fast it would have been writing 435 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:44,039 about Wally Thrasher in that song. It is a very popular notion we all 436 00:29:44,119 --> 00:29:49,440 have after writing this fantastic book. What are some of the questions that you 437 00:29:49,599 --> 00:29:56,440 still have in regard to Wally outside of is he still alive and he's not 438 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:00,319 wasting away in Margaritaville, but probably somewhere along the line. What are your 439 00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,119 questions other than is wal he's still out there? And I like the idea 440 00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,599 that he is by the way, I think that's fun. I guess that 441 00:30:07,599 --> 00:30:11,680 that really would be the big one there. There was also related to this, 442 00:30:11,839 --> 00:30:15,279 just some other investigations the information Olga provided. But really for me, 443 00:30:15,359 --> 00:30:18,880 I guess when I set out to write it, I got most of my 444 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,880 questions answered about about Wally, He's just a guy you'd like to have a 445 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:26,039 beer with, the one he could tell these stories all the time about his 446 00:30:26,319 --> 00:30:29,559 gosh. The book touches on about eight or ten brushes with death. He 447 00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,920 had these flights either crash landings or in Columbia, the crew that was loading 448 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:37,799 his plane that was all coked up, that turned around and started attacking him. 449 00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,400 But I guess, in terms of unanswered questions, you'd like to ask 450 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,119 Wally why he did this? I think he could have been successful anything he 451 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:49,160 tried. Yeah, really we certainly had a sales personality, but he could 452 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,440 have been a great attorney as well, basically anything he put his mind to. 453 00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,680 But he's just somebody you'd like to have a beer with and just let 454 00:30:56,759 --> 00:31:00,440 him go and tell stories. Do you feel like there's any way forward to 455 00:31:00,559 --> 00:31:06,000 confirm whether Wally's alive or not? Only if I had wondered if he was 456 00:31:06,039 --> 00:31:10,119 alive, if there would come a time and I should mention first of federal 457 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,079 warrants for him have expired, but he's no longer and a scheme of things. 458 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:17,119 What he did back then, it was like we got to catch these 459 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,119 marijuana smugglers and put him in prison for the rest of their lives. And 460 00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:22,880 you look how things have changed now. By no means in my pro marijuana, 461 00:31:23,119 --> 00:31:27,839 but nowadays it's certainly not looked down on by the law nearly as much. 462 00:31:29,079 --> 00:31:33,000 No, not at all, really exactly getting back to your question that 463 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,880 the only thing would be if if Wally came forward, came back to the 464 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,599 United States and said, hey, here's my story he died, and someone 465 00:31:40,599 --> 00:31:42,480 else came forward and said, hey, he was my best friend for years 466 00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:45,440 here or whatever, that would certainly be interesting. But yes, he would 467 00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:48,680 be eighty three. I should say he had a very good family history. 468 00:31:48,759 --> 00:31:52,720 He had I think parents and brothers and sister. He had an uncle who 469 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:56,400 lived to be one hundred and three. Wow. Wow, that crazy, 470 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:00,000 and he was really active. He didn't smoke. He was just a social 471 00:32:00,079 --> 00:32:04,240 drinker. And for most of his life he was a runner. He would 472 00:32:04,359 --> 00:32:07,640 run every day, a go out for a runner or beck and I guess 473 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,200 in the day they called that jogging, And I would think if he were 474 00:32:10,319 --> 00:32:15,119 around, he'd probably be in pretty good help. He actually looks like the 475 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:22,000 actor George Peppard in some of these photographs, and old guy is stunningly beautiful. 476 00:32:22,119 --> 00:32:25,160 They're really a very handsome couple in these photographs. They sure are. 477 00:32:25,319 --> 00:32:28,960 And that was the other thing when I thought of writing the book. I 478 00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:30,400 would show their pictures. People would ask me, you, guys, what 479 00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:32,680 are you writing about next? I mean, writing about this guy. And 480 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,000 I'd show Wally and Olga's picture and they'd be like, oh my god, 481 00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,759 that's a Hollywood couple. Yeah, exactly, both of them. And Wally 482 00:32:39,839 --> 00:32:44,039 when he would he walked through a commercial airport and people would point out him 483 00:32:44,039 --> 00:32:46,200 and think he was a celebrity. Yeah, and very often he'd go along 484 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,880 with it. People would think he was Merle Haggard or one time even Burt 485 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,279 Reynolds. Yeah, he does look like those guys. He's got he's got 486 00:32:54,319 --> 00:32:59,319 Burt back rock vibes for me. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, a young, 487 00:32:59,519 --> 00:33:01,960 younger, good looking Burt backrack. Absolutely. And then in the book, 488 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:06,759 Olga tells a story that's in the book about when they were dating and 489 00:33:06,799 --> 00:33:08,480 he took her to Vegas for a weekend. He flew her out to Vegas, 490 00:33:08,759 --> 00:33:14,440 scored some tickets for a Frank Sinatra concert and really good seats, like 491 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:17,480 right up front, and they were seated right next to Frank Sinatra's personal table, 492 00:33:17,599 --> 00:33:22,079 his family table where Frank Sinatra had some family members and friends. So 493 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:27,680 Wally being Wally, he wore a tuxedo to the that night. He walked 494 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,799 over to himself, Hey, I'm Wally and these beautiful blue eyes and looking 495 00:33:30,839 --> 00:33:32,759 like he did. And they were like, hey, Wally, and they 496 00:33:32,799 --> 00:33:37,079 thought he was someone famous they were. They said, hey, why don't 497 00:33:37,079 --> 00:33:39,799 you come after the concert, come on backstage. We're gonna go and have 498 00:33:39,839 --> 00:33:45,759 a drink with Frank. The concert ends in Vegas and they're like, yeah, 499 00:33:45,799 --> 00:33:50,880 come on, Wally and Olga and they go backstage and Wally introduced himself, 500 00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,079 Hey Frank, I'm Wally, and just really nonchalant, and Olga tells 501 00:33:54,119 --> 00:33:58,200 his story and meanwhile Olga's like, oh, my god, we're here having 502 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:02,359 a drink with Frank. So that was just how he rolled. And I 503 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,480 guess one of the things that made me want to write about it. You 504 00:34:06,599 --> 00:34:09,599 think this book, which is absolutely wonderful, could ever be made into a 505 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:14,880 movie or a limited television series. It sure feels like it, I think, 506 00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,559 to both Christian and to me, yeah, thank you. And it 507 00:34:16,599 --> 00:34:21,280 does the story itself even and that was so many people I talked to even 508 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,960 before I started writing it, saying wow, this story needs to be a 509 00:34:23,039 --> 00:34:27,719 movie. I did about six months after it came out. I sold the 510 00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,079 movie rights, though I should say the documentary film rights to a company out 511 00:34:31,079 --> 00:34:36,519 of Los Angeles called Urban Legends Film Company. The CEO of that company is 512 00:34:36,519 --> 00:34:39,039 a guy named Doug Tower, who he does a lot of work actually with 513 00:34:39,119 --> 00:34:44,599 Investigation Discovery with He's filmed a lot of the Joe Kenda things that you see. 514 00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:49,639 Okay, But a networked like ID or even HGTV or Discovery Channel, 515 00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,559 they outsource a lot of their content, and a company like Doug's Urban Legends 516 00:34:53,559 --> 00:34:58,360 Film Company will they'll produce a thirty minute or hour long show that Bill Air 517 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,679 and Bill, I know that you worked in that in you know a lot 518 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,000 more about it than me. So Doug has never done a full length documentary 519 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:08,840 piece, but he envisions this as a multi episode of television series. Yeah, 520 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:14,840 obviously Netflix would be like the Holy Grail. Obviously, but realistically maybe 521 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,199 a long shot. Although these things who knows. But the timing was to 522 00:35:17,199 --> 00:35:20,679 write and when the book came out, this was right during the peak of 523 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:24,320 COVID, the pandemic hedios it shut down, so companies like that were pushing 524 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:29,440 outside Hollywood because they couldn't make movies like they used to. For these stories 525 00:35:29,519 --> 00:35:32,519 documentaries they could make out. Doug and his Urban Legends crew had put a 526 00:35:32,559 --> 00:35:37,639 lot of resources into it. It's been over a year ago. He bought 527 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:40,360 brought a whole crew out and did interviews down in Florida. We went and 528 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:44,679 interviewed some of Wally's old associates. One of the guys we mentioned in the 529 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:47,639 book, a guy named Dicky Sennett who flew with Wally. We interviewed him 530 00:35:47,800 --> 00:35:52,920 and done some other folks down there. Stopped off in Georgia and interviewed Olga 531 00:35:52,960 --> 00:35:57,639 and Montana. Yeah, and then also in South Carolina and North Carolina. 532 00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,880 We talked to one of his attorneys, Keith really, who worked closely with 533 00:36:01,039 --> 00:36:07,199 Olga in her legal defense, and then finally in Virginia interview in the folks 534 00:36:07,199 --> 00:36:10,039 in Virginia who worked on the case. I'm not that involved in it. 535 00:36:10,039 --> 00:36:14,559 It's he. I'm letting him do his thing with that in California, along 536 00:36:14,599 --> 00:36:16,519 with a lot of his other projects. But I know he's had some high 537 00:36:16,599 --> 00:36:21,239 level meetings with some of the streaming services. This would, I should say, 538 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:23,800 it doesn't look like it'll be something in a theater or release, more 539 00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:29,199 like a streaming service, which is so much of the documentary content I mentioned 540 00:36:29,199 --> 00:36:34,239 earlier, the Netflix series about the Alec Murdock case, which I thought definitely 541 00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,159 all done with recreations. You couldn't tell the recreations were the real thing or 542 00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:42,000 not. Yeah, it was very well exactly that would be in terms of 543 00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:45,320 my hopes and expectations. He's something like that with integrating a lot of the 544 00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:50,840 flying and the Yeah, I think it'd be very cool and so forth. 545 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,280 Yeah, it's looks like it would be a little ways off though, if 546 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:57,239 something were to happen with that, But it was good to at least get 547 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,880 that going in that direction. I know that they documentary for Under the Trestle 548 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:06,079 that you're doing with Scott McTavish has come in along swimmingly. Can we expect 549 00:37:06,079 --> 00:37:08,800 to see it hit the airwaves before two terribly much longer? I hope, 550 00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:13,079 So I don't have an exact timetable. There was a point where I was 551 00:37:13,119 --> 00:37:16,599 hoping by the end of the summer fall. We'd originally envisioned that as a 552 00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:22,639 just a one off documentary in ninety minute or two hour documentary, and then 553 00:37:22,119 --> 00:37:27,000 a recent trip to Nashville about six weeks ago I did some narration with it, 554 00:37:27,079 --> 00:37:30,559 and Scott and I talked about it. He had some interest from an 555 00:37:30,559 --> 00:37:34,119 interested party who may get involved, who would like to see it as a 556 00:37:34,159 --> 00:37:38,400 four episode series. Talked about that, and certainly there's enough content there with 557 00:37:38,480 --> 00:37:43,480 that case, with the background and then the investigation and then the trial and 558 00:37:43,559 --> 00:37:47,119 then the ongoing search for Gina Hall's remains. Yes, where early enough content 559 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:52,199 you could see four sixty minute episodes with that. But Scott's been nice enough. 560 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,760 He worked previously out of New York City, now he's out of Nashville. 561 00:37:54,800 --> 00:37:59,039 But I've been closely involved with that working with him, and he's been 562 00:37:59,119 --> 00:38:01,159 nice enough to let me bide input each step of the wood that process I'm 563 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:05,159 a lot more involved in. I think we're a lot closer finishing that up. 564 00:38:05,199 --> 00:38:07,400 As far as the timing, it still remains to be determined, but 565 00:38:07,639 --> 00:38:10,920 that like the others, like the other I mentioned, would be a lot 566 00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:15,480 of on camera interviews with the key people involved. We may also will do 567 00:38:15,559 --> 00:38:17,639 some re enactments with that, as well as a lot of the scenery in 568 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,639 and around the New River Valley that was a big part of this story. 569 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,239 Once that does come out, of course, we will have you and we'd 570 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:28,480 like to have Scott as well come on and talk about the process and the 571 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,519 finished product. That would be awesome. That would be great. As I 572 00:38:30,559 --> 00:38:34,519 think I said this on camera, but I'm really grateful for all the help 573 00:38:34,599 --> 00:38:37,840 you guys have given me over the years and certainly helped me a lot, 574 00:38:37,880 --> 00:38:40,880 and I appreciate it. It's been awesome to see your success with your podcast 575 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,119 as well. Oh thank you. So go ahead and just give us a 576 00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:47,599 quick rundown of all three of your titles and where everybody can find them, 577 00:38:47,599 --> 00:38:52,840 please sure. My books are available now at Barnes and Noble and also Amazon, 578 00:38:53,119 --> 00:38:57,920 as well as independent booksellers that are, it's great to support those. 579 00:38:58,679 --> 00:39:02,480 My first book under the Trust is about the Renee Hall murder case. It 580 00:39:02,519 --> 00:39:07,280 was the first nobody murder conviction in Virginia. The killer, Steve Apperley, 581 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,079 was convicted of first degree murder has been in prison forty three years. And 582 00:39:10,159 --> 00:39:14,920 the big question in that case is where our Gina Halls remains, which, 583 00:39:15,119 --> 00:39:17,840 according to Virginia State Police, are still undiscovered. In the second book we 584 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,639 talked about was Chasing the Squirrel. And then my third book that came out 585 00:39:22,679 --> 00:39:25,079 in twenty twenty one, that was called Eyes of a Monster. That's about 586 00:39:25,119 --> 00:39:29,920 a series of cold case murders in my hometown of Hampton, my old hometown 587 00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:35,039 of Hampton, Virginia, when in twenty fifteen detective named Randy Mayer, who's 588 00:39:35,039 --> 00:39:39,280 now retired and living in Alaska, reopened the cases and managed to link three 589 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:44,480 murders to a killer who was in his sixties and brought him to trial on 590 00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:46,840 one of the murders and he was convicted and now in prisons. But it's 591 00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:50,920 a great cold case story. Then I should tell you my latest book, 592 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,360 which I had one more round of final editing and it should be out this 593 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:59,480 summer. But the title is in the Wind and it's another true crime book, 594 00:39:59,679 --> 00:40:04,440 and it was very fortunate I had a retired female detective who's in her 595 00:40:04,519 --> 00:40:07,079 late seventies get in touch with me. Her name is Kay Shucker. Her 596 00:40:07,159 --> 00:40:10,760 back when she worked the case, her name was Kay Lewis. Her background 597 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,559 and the early chapters in the book. We'll talk about it a great deal. 598 00:40:15,840 --> 00:40:19,480 Kay was one of the first female police officers in Hampton Roads back in 599 00:40:19,519 --> 00:40:24,519 the seventies. Also the first female detective in Chesapeake and one of the first 600 00:40:24,639 --> 00:40:30,119 in Hampton Roads. So a big part of the story is her challenges back 601 00:40:30,159 --> 00:40:35,559 then with discrimination as a female and even some harassment. For example, when 602 00:40:35,599 --> 00:40:38,440 she was working as a police dispatcher and wanted to be a police officer and 603 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:42,679 went to the human resource office in Chess speak and said I'd like an application 604 00:40:42,719 --> 00:40:45,239 to be a police officer, and they said, I'm sorry, but we 605 00:40:45,239 --> 00:40:51,920 don't hire women. So a lot of it is about her challenges and how 606 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,760 she came to be a detective. And then in nineteen eighty one, she 607 00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,840 was the lead detective in a just a fascinating case when an old in university 608 00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:05,519 student by the name of Janie Starr went missing, he disappeared, and it 609 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:09,199 fell in Chesspeak's jurisdiction because she lived just in an apartment just across the Chesspeak 610 00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,519 line in Chesapeake, but a lot of the action in the book takes place 611 00:41:13,559 --> 00:41:16,920 at Odu, so Kay was the lead investigator in that case, along with 612 00:41:17,159 --> 00:41:22,920 a few male detectives who backed her up, and she had her own theory 613 00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:27,239 on the case. She believed the missing student, Jannis Starr, was having 614 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:30,639 an affair with one of her professor. The other detectives did not think that 615 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:32,599 and told her she was barking up the wrong tree and told her not to 616 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,679 go after this professor, but she gradually, over the course of a few 617 00:41:37,679 --> 00:41:42,840 months built a case against him, making really dramatic twists and turns from there 618 00:41:43,079 --> 00:41:46,880 in terms of the investigation and in terms of this professor, I can't give 619 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:52,760 it away, but by bizarre and also quite sensational then come to find out 620 00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:57,719 the Unfortunately, the student was murdered, and then months go by her remains 621 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,760 have not been found, and Kay is working hard on trying to find what 622 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:06,199 she thinks is a clandestine grave, and eventually, just through some awesome detective 623 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:08,800 work, does find an area where she thinks that Janice was buried. That 624 00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:13,679 brings a team of people out there to look for her, and then the 625 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:20,440 book ends with what they either do or don't find sounds amazing. Thank you, 626 00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,599 and i'd written it, and then I had an editor and publisher telling 627 00:42:23,599 --> 00:42:25,760 me, but the crime story is good, but you've got to do a 628 00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:30,039 better job of talking about the challenges that the detective went through as a female. 629 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:34,519 So then I got some actually some more female input on that, and 630 00:42:34,559 --> 00:42:37,880 rewrote that part of it. And I think it's a good story that anyone 631 00:42:37,000 --> 00:42:40,440 would relate to, but certainly in this current climate we live in, it's 632 00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:45,400 a great book with regard to women's issues and the ongoing equality for women. 633 00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:47,559 We will make sure that we have you back on to talk about that as 634 00:42:47,559 --> 00:42:52,119 well. We'll do the whole Ron Peterson quartet of books, two kinds. 635 00:42:52,760 --> 00:42:57,320 That's going to wrap it up for this episode of Mind Over Murder. Thank 636 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:09,639 you so much for listening. We'll see you next time. Mind Over Murder 637 00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:15,719 is a production of Absolute Zero and Another Dog Productions. Our executive producers are 638 00:43:15,719 --> 00:43:22,039 Bill Thomas and Kristin Dilley. Our logo art is by Pamela Arnois. Our 639 00:43:22,119 --> 00:43:27,199 theme music is by Kevin McLeod. Mind Over Murder is distributed in partnership with 640 00:43:27,280 --> 00:43:31,519 Coral Space Media. You can follow us on Facebook, Twitter, or Instagram. 641 00:43:31,559 --> 00:43:36,480 You can also follow our page on the Colonial Parkway Murders on Facebook, 642 00:43:36,760 --> 00:43:40,079 and finally, you can follow Bill Thomas on Twitter at Bill Thomas. Five 643 00:43:40,199 --> 00:44:00,239 six. Thank you for listening to mind Over Murder m